Introduction

R: Welcome to Talking Intern, a podcast by 5 trainee curators working in museums and galleries across Cornwall.

Si: So if you’re thinking about getting started as a museum professional, we’re here to share with you some of our experiences and lessons learned, setbacks and successes from the early stages of our careers.

K: So join us…

Si: Sian, from Wheal Martyn Clay Works, a Victorian China Clay Works in mid Cornwall.

Sa: Sarah, from Bodmin Keep, Cornwall’s Army Museum.

K: Katie, also from Bodmin Keep.

L: Lizzy, from Falmouth Art Gallery.

R: And Rachel, from the Museum of Cornish Life.

Si: As we make a daring attempt to break into the museum…

R: …Industry!

Si: …Industry…yes that’s what I meant.

Sa: Coming up on today’s episode…

K: ‘…I always thought of museum exhibitions as plays. Every single aspect has to be rehearsed and planned out, from the lighting to the colour of the object backgrounds...’

Sa: ‘…it required me to shlep about 16 gigantic beanbags from Hammersmith all the way to Camden (which is a long way!)...

L: ‘…Even if you find them slightly intimidating, if you want to work in a museum, don’t let your background put you off...’

Si: Hi everyone, welcome to the first episode of Talking Intern! We are five trainee curators across four Cornish museums. So we are gonna be tackling various subjects about working in the museum industry. This is for people that are just getting started with their careers, whether or not you’re an emerging professional or you have just finished uni, or you want to work in museums, or you already work in museums and you think ‘oh you sweet summer children’ - let’s see.

I should probably let everyone else introduce themselves right now though…

R: Hi everyone my name’s Rachel and I am the trainee curator at The Museum of Cornish Life in Helston, which houses one of the largest social history collections in the South West.

K: Hi, I’m Katie I work at Bodmin Keep, Cornwall’s army museum, which covers the Cornish Regiment.

Sa: Hi, I’m Sarah I’m also working as part of the dream team with Katie at Bodmin Keep, Cornwall’s army museum.

L: Hi, I’m Lizzy I work at Falmouth Art Gallery, and Sian you should probably introduce yourself as well…?

Si: Yeah I should probably do that shouldn’t I? Hello, I’m Sian I work at Wheal Martyn it’s a Victorian Clay Works, so Wheal Martyn Clay Works. It’s a China Clay mining museum, perhaps the only one in the whole world, certainly the only one in the UK.

So that sort of leads me on to our first question then. We are gonna be tackling three questions today, the first one being: Why museums? Why did we want to work in museums? Katie why did you want to work in museums?

Why choose to work in museums?

K: So I’ve always loved the National Trust, I got a life membership from my grandparents when I was little (before they increased the prices) and it was one of the best presents ever, because it meant any weekend we would just go to historic houses and gardens, and I think one of the problems with academic research is that it just stays trapped in journals and it’s only read by the experts. Whereas museums are a really good chance to spread that knowledge and communicate research to everybody, to the public. I also come from a theatre background and I always thought of museum exhibitions as plays. Every single aspect has to be rehearsed and planned out, from the lighting to the colour of the object backgrounds, to the text and the layout of how the visitors go round the room.

Si: Yeah definitely, I can definitely see it from that theatre background as well, it’s brilliant. Sarah, why did you wanna work in museums?

Sa: Well it all started during a period of existential panic about a year into my undergraduate degree, because I had absolutely no idea what I was planning to do. So I was studying English and so everyone assumed I wanted to be a teacher and no way was I going to do that, the very idea terrified me. So I started to think really deeply about what made me happy, what did I love to do in my spare time and what industry was I willing to support. It became clear to me that the arts, culture and heritage sector was where I needed to be. It was only then, after several years of volunteering in all sorts of different areas of the sector that I actually settled on museums. What really attracted me to working in museums was experiencing first hand really how valuable museum experiences can be – not only for individual personal growth and learning, but also supporting communities and just generally transforming wider societal understanding, creating more equitable societies basically. And yeah, I just it so energising and really exciting to work with objects and these incredible artworks and have a job that means you’re genuinely learning new things every single day. So Lizzy, what about you? Why did you wanna come work in museums?

L: I did art all the way through college and through uni – I spent a lot of time in galleries and museums especially. All of my artwork essentially, was based around a cabinet of curiosities, so I studied museum displays a lot and artists who followed similar themes. The trips became less about a forced thing in my education and more I went for enjoyment, so I would go in my lunch breaks or after college, and then I found that I really enjoyed being in museums and galleries and I wanted to find out how I could work in one. So I had this dream of being an artist at night and then a museum or gallery professional in the day and get to do both at the same time.

Si: That’s definitely what I had growing up as well, I just really liked being in them. Rachel what made you want to work in museums?

R: Well for me the main attraction of working in museums is that you’re surrounded by stories all the time. Every step you take in a museum and every object you look at transports you somewhere new. I just feel really privileged to be part of preserving those stories for other people and hopefully making sure that they are valued in the way that they should be. I also think that working in museums is special the sense that every day is different, like Sarah said, one day you might be presenting a Blue Peter-style broadcast on the museums social media channels, which can be a real challenge if you have my level of artistic ability, which is low to say the least, and the next you could be taking a training course in conservation. So curatorial work also involves a lot of puzzle solving, which I really enjoy, and you get to work with some very passionate and knowledgeable staff and volunteers. So those were kind of my primary reasons for looking at a job in museums. But I think it’s important that we think about how we kind of got to this point, I’m sure we’ve all done lots of work experience and placements and things like that, so I think it would be helpful to people if we discussed that a little bit more. So Sian, how did you get to this point in your career?

Si: I’ll just say why museums first. For me I wanted to – my answer is gonna be a little bit flippant actually, unfortunately, you’ve all given lovely detailed answers and mine was really very much like Sarah’s, except the existential panic for me, didn’t quite kick in until six months after I had graduated from university. Growing up I always loved museums and I remember when I was (gosh I don’t know) about ten or eleven, we went to the British Museum and my dad managed to get tickets when they had part of the terracotta army on display and it was absolutely amazing -

Sa: Oh I went to that one Sian, that was incredible!

Si: You went to it too Sarah? Oh my gosh, we might have bumped into each other in the past! (Laughter) …and I remember just being so blown away by it and I used that in part of my personal statement to get into university. I did a BA in Ancient History and I remember in my personal statement just writing ‘I liked museums growing up, so that’s why I should do this degree’ – it worked, apparently! So yeah, I finished university and I thought ‘What on Earth do I do now?’, ‘I have an Ancient History degree, what can I do with that?’. I didn’t kind of straight away when I was 18 know that I wanted to work in museums whatsoever, so hopefully I’ll elaborate a little bit more in questions two and three, and I’ll get my redemption arc by number three I hope.

How did you get to this point in your career?

Si: In terms of ‘how did I get to where I am’ I volunteered quite a bit so – like I said, it was a good six months after I finished university that I even started to think about or even try to volunteer in museums. I always worked alongside studying so I never really had the free time to volunteer, but I found myself in a position where I could and I went and volunteered in Royal Cornwall Museum for a couple years, did all of the stuff that they threw at me and I got some really great experience there, but all of the different jobs and roles that they wanted me to do I did - so as an education facilitator, front of house, gallery guide, conservation assistant, I was hungry for it all. I was on the pilot group for a programme called ‘Citizen Curators’, which is also (I think) Cornwall Museums Partnership and Arts Council funded, and that was fantastic. That really – that’s what sparked me wanting to be a curator, because that was about getting people from the local community, who might not have as much access to these types of roles, and getting them to actually perform curatorial tasks and that was inspiring, so that’s what made me get to where I am today I think - I really attribute it to the Citizen Curators program.

So I better stop talking now I’m getting sick of the sound of my own voice, Sarah you did a masters in Museums Studies, so how did you get to where you are now as well?

Sa: Yes, so once I sort of latched on to this idea of trying to work my way into the arts, culture and heritage sector more generally, I was thinking ‘Right okay, I need to test this idea out - let’s find some volunteering.’ So, from that point on I just became a bit of a ‘serial intern’ basically, just trying out anything and everything in the arts and culture sector. Just trying to find where I fit and basically accumulating more and more experience so I could go for more exciting positions. Some of the most unusual included interning at a fine art laboratory – which basically tested paintings for forgeries (which was kinda cool), and another was volunteering for an art gallery which was actually in a multi-story car park in South London (which got very cold in the evening), but my favourite though has to be an internship I did at the Jewish Museum in London, and I coordinated this bonkers, immersive audio-visual installation with DJ’s, and it required me to shlep about 16 gigantic beanbags from Hammersmith all the way to Camden (which is a long way!) so 10 I put in the taxi and 6 had to come with me on the tube.

R: 10 in the taxi?

(laughter)

Sa: Yeah, I just packed them off and, you know, prayed that they would get there.

(laughter)

I had to take the rest with me on the tube, I was quite a sight. So yeah, I finished my undergraduate degree, took a year out to sort of work, travel and apply then for the Masters. Cause I was sort of told by everyone I spoke to about careers in museums and galleries, that everyone said ‘Right, go for an MA in Museum Studies’ and so whilst I fully recognise that, that’s not what everyone can do, not everyone’s lucky enough to be in a position to get that degree, but it was absolutely the right choice for me. I was able to get a loan, live at home, work a couple of really flexible part time jobs - which meant that I could do that, and I’m the type of nerd who loves school, so I just adored my time at UCL, it just introduced me to some really focused and driven people who are also passionate about museums. I learned so much about the sector, I was able to do loads of practical projects because UCL has so many different collections you can work with. One of the best parts was researching and writing the dissertation, I investigated queer museum trails, ran a bunch of participant studies, and that project really shaped my current curatorial priorities, so something I definitely wanna pursue in the future. But, I finished the MA last September and was just working and job hunting for a few months (which I know you guys all know is pretty tough!), but then I got this traineeship at Bodmin Keep and just absolutely leapt at the chance to work and actually get paid in a real museum. Getting that acceptance email was such a fantastic moment. It felt like 5 years of hard volunteering and studying had paid off. Oh, beautiful! (laughter)

So Rachel what about you?

R: Yeah, for me I haven’t always worked in the heritage sector. Like you Sarah - I studied English at university and I think we were at the same university actually, and after graduating I went abroad and taught English as a foreign language for a couple of years in Switzerland, and then in Spain and back here in the UK. But I think my heart has always been in heritage really and I’m very glad that I did have that opportunity to travel and gain different skills, and whilst I was at university I volunteered with the National Trust and also like Sian, with Royal Cornwall Museum in Truro and it really gave me quite a tantalising peek, as it were, into the world of museums. So it was always my plan, basically, to go abroad, get some other experience, get some leadership skills and teaching, and then hopefully use those skills in a museums role, whether that’s in learning and engagement, or in curation. And then I started volunteering at the Museum of Cornish Life in Helston where I currently work, and I just absolutely fell in love with the place as a volunteer - you know, the stories that are told by the museum, the feel of it, even the smell of it, so as soon as the trainee curator role was advertised I leapt at the opportunity, and I’m just really glad that I did. But I don’t know if that’s the same for you Katie?

K: Yeah, so I studied archaeology at Durham, and it really appealed to me cause it’s practical history, and it tells the stories of people that weren’t fancy enough to have scribes or people writing down the history, so basically anyone that’s not a king - so that really appealed to me, telling stories of normal people throughout history. The common thread seems to be existential crisis, I had mine at the end of first year, we were on a dig at a Roman fort and I wasn’t feeling very well and I was washing pot sherds rather than digging. I just thought ‘This is really hard work, that I’m not really well enough to do, so if I’m not gonna be a commercial archaeologist, if I’m not going to actually dig on digs, what am I gonna do with my life?’. So, I was washing pot sherds and mentally rifling through all the skills that I had, being like ‘What can I do? What can I do?’ and thought ‘Ah, museums! I wonder whether that would work?’ and then started volunteering at my local and the more I did it, the more I liked it. So I graduated July 2019, and I was actually meant to move to Alaska, I had a job in a museum in Alaska that fell through because of visas - so I applied for the most remote British place that I could get instead, and that’s how I ended up in Cornwall! Lizzy, what about you?

L: I didn't do anything really museum related before this, I did my degree in Fine Art, I graduated BA Fine Art in 2016. I never even had experience volunteering, I just, I kind of knew that I wanted to give it a go, I had a few failed attempts at applying for visitor assistant positions in galleries back up at home in West Yorkshire, and yeah they didn’t work out, they were a bit disastrous! I was not having a great time working in the service industry and retail (that’s what I did immediately before this), I was always kind of looking out for any art jobs or museum work that I might be able to do anywhere they needed help. And then I was about to give up and I saw this advertised intern position on social media – which is the last place you’d expect to see a job like this, I saw it on - I think it was on Facebook at the time, and yeah, it was like a ‘lightbulb’ moment, I just went ‘Oh, I might as well have a go then, I’ll go for that one!’ so that’s how I got here.

Si: I think that’s really great actually, I love that, that happened. I love that you’re here with us and we’re all a group together. Strangely enough, actually, I had applied for this program before. So it was actually, there was an internship the year before this one but it was only 6 months instead of 9 months, and it was quite different, I think the way it was structured was very different. But that was the only reason that I went for this one, because I was walking around one day and I thought ‘Oh, I remember I went for that internship last year, I wonder if the same thing is happening this year? You know it was around this time last year…’ and then what do I notice – I see it, it’s there it didn’t pop up for me on social media or anything, but I just happened to look on the website that day and it was there! And I think the deadline was coming up in one or two days, so I made a hurried (laughter), a hurried job application like ‘Please!’ (laughter) – which sounds like I didn’t really care very much about it but I did!

And I think that kind of feeds into our next question, which is ‘What piece of advice would you have for people?’ and I’ve got a few little things.

What piece of advice would you have for people wanting to work in museums?

Si: Obviously, one piece of advice would be: if you get a ‘no’ don’t let that stop you, try again, cause I got a no for this program and then I tried again the next year, and I got a ‘yes’ - and they remembered me from last year which was really nice. So definitely don’t be disheartened, don’t put yourself down. I definitely suffer from imposter syndrome and I know a few of us here do as well, I’m constantly kind of thinking that I’m gonna get caught out. ‘They’re gonna realise that I’m an imposter’ and ‘I shouldn’t be here, and I don’t know what I’m talking about’ so definitely don’t let that consume you. And, another piece of advice that I would give, personally, is have a purpose or a vision, or a reason why you want to work in museums – so what I said at the beginning that for me it was just I didn’t know what else to do, I’d got an Ancient History degree, and I thought ‘What do I do now?’, and then it took me two years working or volunteering in museums and working in museums before I realised that what I was mostly interested in was getting that information out there and making it as accessible to everyone as possible. You know, there’s a reason why these kind of historical documentaries or science documentaries with Alice Roberts and Brian Cox are so interesting, because they make these subjects accessible to people, and there’s a nasty stigma in museums that, you know, you go into a museum and you’re like ‘This is not for me. I shouldn’t be here.’ and museums really shouldn’t be that way. So, I guess my purpose and my vision for museums is that they are places for the community, they are looking after the heritage of the community, so they are absolutely for you, and I’m very passionate in making sure that, that is something that I carry with me throughout working in museums. So I think once you get a purpose or a reason outside of just ‘Well I did an adjacent degree, I might as well.’ I think once you actually have a reason, that drive definitely will push you towards in a way it did for me anyway. Sorry to ramble on again, so I suppose I better ask – who shall I ask? Let’s ask Lizzy this time. Lizzy what’s your piece of advice for people starting out?

L: I wouldn’t be put off by your background, like I’m from a very Northern, working class background. We didn’t visit many museums when I was a child, we went to local National Trust places and saw them. Even if you find them slightly intimidating, if you want to work in a museum, don’t let your background put you off. Expand your networks, especially, get on LinkedIn and Twitter – all the museum people seem to be on there now and the museums are using them -

K: They really are!

L: Yeah, to reach out to more people. They’re even putting jobs up on there as well, so it’s always work a look, even just for that. Meet people in person, I know with the current COVID-19 situation going on it might be a bit more difficult, but when museums do reopen people are always more than happy to talk to you about how they got into museums. They do need fresh, new young and diverse people working there, to represent everyone in their collections much better. Rachel what about you, have you got any advice?

R: I mean, for me the most important advice I would give anyone looking to work in the museum sector is to gain work experience and volunteer if you can. Through doing practical hands-on work you not only make connections, but you also learn what you like doing and what you don’t, which is actually just as important. So from about year ten onwards, continuing throughout my university studies, I spent time with lots of different organisations, so theatres, newspapers, museums, even a vets surgery, and for me chasing news stories wasn’t something that I could see myself doing for the rest of my life, but routing through dusty archives and curating exhibitions definitely was. At the moment it might seem that work experience would be impossible to do given current constraints, but really there’s nothing stopping people contacting museums they’re interested in and seeing whether there would be any opportunity to contribute in a digital capacity. So there’s a few different avenues that I think people could explore more, and think a little bit outside the box and be a little bit creative as well with what you look at. But yeah, Katie, what advice would you give?

K: Yeah, absolutely agree with what you just said Rachel about getting volunteering in different sectors and then transferring it over. Something we’ve sort of referred to is the issue in museums of getting volunteering in order to get a job - which I think we’re gonna cover in a later episode in a bit more detail. It can be a massive economic barrier and that is something that museums are dealing with at the moment, but if you can’t afford to volunteer you can absolutely use the skills and the knowledge that you have from other jobs, independent study and things like that. We’ve also talked about how difficult it is to get a job, it is very, very hard to get a paid job in museums, and I think it is worth mentioning that you’re never gonna make a lot of money, but it’s a wonderful sector to be in, and it’s really interesting and exciting and you’re learning something new every day. But it’s not finance, you’re never gonna be rich doing it.

Si: Yeah, I think that’s a good point to make isn’t it.

(laugher)

Sa: Rich in spirit though!

K: Exactly!

(laughter)

R: Very good point.

K: Sarah, what about you? What’s your advice?

Sa: So I’ve got two key pieces of advice. I’d say, first of all: try anything. Now this is kind of going back to what Katie and Rachel, what you guys have been talking about, but I would say it’s only useful to a certain extent to be 100% sure of exactly what position you want to be in, in a museum. I would say, if an opportunity from any part of the museum sector sort of comes your way and maybe it’s not exactly what you wanna do, but as long as the time commitment is not too taxing and there’s something in it that you think you could learn, then I’d say absolutely just go for it, because the more you try the closer you can get to where you want to be. And don’t forget if it’s voluntary and you don’t like it, you can just stop whenever you want to. I’m a firm believer in accumulating lots of short and sweet volunteer positions - when you feel like you’ve learnt everything you can from somewhere, then really don’t feel awkward about moving on. But I would say, my experience has certainly been very varied, but I think that’s been quite an asset to me in terms of having such diverse experiences to draw upon when applying for new jobs, but more importantly for me it’s about trying different things and figuring out what really powers and energises me. And the second one is just be brave! So I was really, really nervous applying for this job at Bodmin Keep because, you know, I’m from London, I’ve never lived in Cornwall before, if I were to move down to Cornwall I would have had to leave behind all my family, all of my friends and live in, effectively what I consider to be like, the deepest, darkest countryside. (laughter) Anyway, I got the job, moved to Bodmin without knowing anyone and you know it’s really the best decision I’ve ever made. Whilst I was living in Cornwall I was not only developing professionally with the really engaging, challenging work, but it was a huge step for me personally, and I think it’s been a really big confidence booster. So yeah, that’s what I’d say – try anything and be brave.

R: Sarah can I ask, do you have walking boots and a wetsuit? Because you really need those to survive here.

(laughter)

Sa: I have my walking boots but I was not planning on going into the sea until at least July, so no worries about a wetsuit…

R: We will make sure that you get in!

(laughter)

Si: We’ll give you a proper Cornish welcome at some point.

Sa: Fantastic. I had been having a pasty every weekend, so (laughter)…

Si: I’m so glad, honestly.

Sa: Don’t forget to join us next time, when we’ll be discussing what a museum curator actually is and thinking about our own experiences, before and after the lockdown.

Si: Thank you so much everyone for your lovely, brilliant answers, and thank you to everyone listening. So until next time bye everyone.

K: This podcast has been kindly supported by Cornwall Museums Partnership, Cornwall Council, the John Eleman Foundation, Cultivator, European Structural and Investment Funds, and Arts Council England.

L: You can listen to this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and wherever else you find your podcasts.

R: Make sure you subscribe so you can be notified as soon as it’s released.

Si: You can also follow us on Twitter @cornwallinterns (all one word) to keep up to date on what we’re doing in the museums around Cornwall.

See you soon.