Jordan Dunne works as a Technical Program Manager at Google Payments. He previously worked as a Program Manager at Microsoft, Lead Forward-Deployed Engineer at Enlitic, and Product Manager at Vim. Learn more about Jordan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanwdunne/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanwdunne/) Want to level-up your skills in machine learning and software engineering? Subscribe to our newsletter: https://mlengineered.ck.page/943aa3fd46 (https://mlengineered.ck.page/943aa3fd46)

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Timestamps: (02:00) How were you exposed to CS and why did you pursue it? (03:25) Is software engineering actually engineering? (06:40) How do you define product management? (11:05) When did you realize you wanted to be a PM instead of a developer? (16:40) Project vs Program vs Product Management (18:35) Effective PM as leverage on a dev team (24:05) What can engineers do to make PM's lives easier? (26:10) Companies moving towards technical PMs? (30:20) Handling the added uncertainty from Data/ML products (42:00) ML models held to a higher standard than their human equivalents (45:15) Why are Xoogle PMs so successful? (52:10) Google's and Boeing's cultures influenced by their business models (56:00) "Needless complexity" in PM (59:00) Getting better at estimation (01:04:00) Knowing ML evaluation metrics as a PM (01:06:30) Getting better at communication (01:14:20) Prioritizing what to learn (01:16:50) Keeping the big picture in mind (01:20:00) Rapid fire questions

Links: https://www.amazon.com/Thanks-Feedback-Science-Receiving-Well/dp/0670014664 (Thanks for the Feedback) https://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0143122010 (Better Angels of Our Nature) https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 (Crucial Conversations) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057115/ (The Great Escape)