Navigating the Customer Experience: Recent Episodes

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What if the fastest way to lead change was to stop trying to feel confident? Executive coach Terez Rijkenberg says clarity beats confidence every time, and she has the frameworks to prove it.

Terez Rijkenberg, executive coach to C-suite leaders and director at Tuitive AI, joins Yanique Grant to share the two frameworks behind her work: the RAFT formula (results, actions, feelings, thoughts) and Radical Adaptability. She unpacks how change really happens, how she coaches leaders through it with a real client story, and how her Claude-based AI system hands executives back 10-plus hours a week. She also shares the grounding quote she uses when stress spikes.

In this episode:

• Terez's journey from the corporate ladder through postpartum depression and identity shift to executive coaching
• The RAFT formula: why your thoughts drive your feelings, actions, and ultimately your results
• Radical Adaptability: safety, clarity, belief, experiment, and integrate, the five steps of real change
• A client story showing why coaching a team is faster than telling them what to do
• Before and after: building AI workflows that remove manual work and free leaders to think
• The grounding self-talk Terez uses under pressure: this is not an emergency

Featured resources:

Book: The Success Principles by Jack Canfield
Book: The Freakonomics series by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner (her gateway into behavioral economics and psychology)
Claude (Anthropic) - where Terez builds her processes, systems, and personalized client dashboards
AI Amplified Exec - her Claude plugin that turns spreadsheets, transcripts, and documents into branded outputs like board packs in minutes
Tuitive AI - where Terez is director and built AI Amplified Exec, helping senior executives use AI safely for real gains in personal productivity.

Connect with the guest:
Website: terezrijkenberg.com
Weekly email / blog: terezrijkenberg.com/blog
LinkedIn: Terez Rijkenberg (most active here)

Follow the show: X @NavigatingCX and join our private Facebook group, Navigating the Customer Experience Community. Hosted by Yanique Grant.

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Can AI answer your customers without pushing them away? David Karandish has automated support for 20,000 companies, and he says deflection should make the experience better, not worse.

David Karandish, founder and CEO of Capacity, joins Yanique Grant to unpack how to bring AI into customer support the right way. After selling Answers Corp for $960 million, David built Capacity into an omni-channel support automation platform serving roughly 20,000 customers. In this episode he shares the design principles that keep automation human, why your first AI project should be a small, provable win, and how AI agents are now running entire companies from finance to marketing.

In this episode:

• The design principles that make AI deflection improve the customer experience instead of frustrating people, from great escalation paths to leading with empathy
• Why human behavior is largely universal across regions, and where support questions actually differ
• What the $960M Answers.com journey taught David about people who are truly stuck and have nowhere to turn
• The single most practical first step for any support leader: go get your small win, then iterate
• How builder agents let a complete novice spin up workflows, integrations, and CSAT surveys just by asking

Featured resources:

Book: Principles by Ray Dalio — a first-principles breakdown of how Dalio built one of the most successful investment firms of all time.
Foundational AI models — Google Gemini, OpenAI, and Anthropic's Claude, used across the business.
Jira — for tracking development tickets; David uses LLMs to analyze time-in-stage when off-the-shelf plugins fall short.
Capacity — an AI-powered support automation platform that deflects emails, calls, and tickets across voice, SMS, WhatsApp, web, and email. ~20,000 customers, 250+ app integrations.

Connect with the guest:
Website: capacity.com
Email: david@capacity.com

Follow the show: X @NavigatingCX and join our private Facebook group, Navigating the Customer Experience Community. Hosted by Yanique Grant.

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Pricing AI is the hardest pricing problem in software right now, and most SaaS leaders are getting it wrong on the first try. In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, host Yanique Grant sits down with Dan Balcauski, founder of Product Tranquility, to unpack why the first AI price a company sets is always wrong, how to set usage caps when you have no historical data, and what smart B2B SaaS leaders do differently to turn pricing from a liability into a strategic advantage.

Dan has spent more than 20 years in software, starting as an engineer before moving into product management and discovering that how a company captures value matters far more than how it builds the product. Today he advises B2B SaaS CEOs on the AI pricing and packaging decisions that keep them up at night, and in this conversation he shares the frameworks, the mistakes to avoid, and the practical playbook he uses with real companies.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

Why the first AI price is always wrong, and why that has nothing to do with how smart your team or your consultants are. Dan explains the fundamental economic shift underway in software, where both sides of the pricing equation are moving at once. On the cost side, he points to a benchmark showing the cost per task for a top model dropping by roughly 390 times in a single year, a change no normal business ever absorbs in its cost of goods sold. On the value side, models keep getting more capable, handling this month what they could not handle last month. His research shows that every application layer software company he studied that released AI capabilities revised its pricing and packaging within 18 months. The lesson is not to price perfectly on day one. It is to build for change.

How to set usage caps and pricing tiers with zero historical data. Dan frames the real problem plainly. You know what a token costs, but you have no idea what customers will actually do with a new AI feature. Products are full of features that barely got adopted, and AI features do not get to skip that step of the innovation cycle. On top of that, a small group of power users, often around 5 to 10 percent, can drive the overwhelming majority of usage and cost. That makes the tempting shortcuts unreliable. Using dashboard views as a proxy breaks down because good AI gets used far more than the dashboards it replaces, and a beta group rarely matches the usage profile of the full market.

The early access playbook that sits between beta and general availability. Dan recommends a stage where companies announce their limits, put a price on the feature, and communicate it clearly, but do not enforce or meter it yet for a defined window that can run anywhere from six weeks to 18 months. This eases customer anxiety about surprise bills, encourages real adoption, and lets the company gather genuine usage patterns instead of guessing from proxies that break down.

Why you should separate ordinary plan limits from fair use limits. Even when you are not metering usage, Dan explains, you can reserve the right to throttle or downgrade the rare customer using a capability a hundred or a thousand times more than the average, much like companies already do with API request limits. Those levers let teams keep experimenting during early access without the finance team panicking when the bill arrives.

Why communication is where pricing changes succeed or fail. As Dan puts it, most pricing blowups come not from the change itself but from the fact that it was communicated poorly or not at all. Agility beats certainty, and reviewing pricing on a quarterly cadence beats the old annual or five year rhythm.

This episode is essential listening for SaaS founders, product leaders, pricing strategists, and customer experience professionals who want to understand how AI is reshaping the economics of software and what to do about it before the market forces the decision for them.

ABOUT DAN BALCAUSKI

Dan Balcauski is the founder of Product Tranquility, where he helps B2B SaaS CEOs turn pricing from a confusing liability into a strategic advantage. With more than 20 years in software, Dan began his career as an engineer before moving into product management and discovering that how companies capture value matters far more than how they build it. His work now centers on one of the most pressing questions in software today: how to price AI. Before founding Product Tranquility, Dan was a principal product strategist at SolarWinds and head of product at LawnStarter. He holds a BSc in computer engineering from Iowa State University and an MBA from the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, where he also helps teach executive education courses on product strategy. He is the host of the SaaS Scaling Secrets podcast.

QUESTIONS YANIQUE ASKED

Could you share a little about your journey and how you got from where you were to where you are today?
You have said the first AI price is always wrong. Why is that, and what should a SaaS company do differently knowing they are going to get it wrong the first time?
So many companies are trying to set usage caps and pricing tiers for AI with zero historical data. How would you advise a CEO to make that decision when they are essentially flying blind?
What is the one online resource, tool, website, or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?
Can you share one or two books that have had a positive impact on you, professionally or personally?
What is one thing going on in your life right now that you are really excited about?
Do you have a quote or saying that keeps you on track during times of adversity?
Where can listeners find and connect with you online?

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The first AI price is always wrong, and that is not a failure of intelligence. It reflects a fundamental economic shift where both cost and value are moving fast.
• Every application layer company Dan studied revised its AI pricing and packaging within 18 months. Plan for revision, not perfection.
• Agility beats certainty. Review pricing on a quarterly cadence rather than annually or every five years.
• Communication is where pricing changes succeed or fail. Most blowups come from poor communication, not the change itself.
• Usage proxies break down. Dashboard views and beta groups rarely predict how customers will actually use an AI feature.
• A small group of power users can drive the majority of usage and cost, so average user assumptions are dangerous.
• Early access is the smart middle stage. Announce and price the limits, communicate them, but do not meter yet while you gather real data.
• Separate plan limits from fair use limits. Reserve the right to throttle extreme usage even when you are not metering everyone.
• Do not borrow problems from the future. Anxiety about what has not happened yet only adds problems to the present.
• AI is making custom, personal business software economically viable for the first time, opening the door to tools built exactly the way you work.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction and Guest Bio
01:51 Dan's Journey: From Engineer to Pricing Strategist
04:03 Learning That Pricing Is Different in Every Industry
04:49 Why the First AI Price Is Always Wrong
05:36 The 390x Cost Shift and the Moving Value Equation
06:49 Agility, Faster Pricing Reviews, and Communication
09:28 Setting Usage Caps With No Historical Data
11:32 Why Dashboard Proxies and Beta Groups Break Down
12:59 The Early Access Playbook Between Beta and GA
13:20 Plan Limits vs. Fair Use Limits
17:04 The One Tool Dan Cannot Live Without: Claude Code
17:38 Book Recommendation: Monetizing Innovation
18:31 Building Custom Business Software With AI
19:55 How to Connect With Dan Online
20:27 Dan's Guiding Quote: Don't Borrow Problems From the Future

FEATURED RESOURCES

Book mentioned: Monetizing Innovation by Madhavan Ramanujam and Georg Tacke
Tool mentioned: Claude Code, Dan's work surface and the engine behind his custom business software

CONNECT WITH DAN

LinkedIn: Search Dan Balcauski on LinkedIn, and mention that you heard him on the podcast so he can separate you from the spam
Website: producttranquility.com
Podcast: SaaS Scaling Secrets, wherever podcasts are found

DAN'S GUIDING QUOTE

"Don't borrow problems from the future." Dan Balcauski

Dan explains that most of our anxiety is about things that have not happened yet. Worrying about a future scenario pulls that problem into the present before it ever arrives, giving you more to carry now for no reason. Like debt, it is borrowing against your future self. His practice is to stay focused on what is real and in front of him, which keeps him grounded when challenges or uncertainty threaten to pull him off track.

ABOUT N

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What if the most valuable thing a customer could do for your business was complain? In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, Yanique Grant sits down with Michael Podolsky, co-founder and CEO of PissedConsumer.com and Wisebrand.com, to explore the power of negative feedback and why organizations that take it seriously are the ones that build lasting customer loyalty.

Michael built PissedConsumer.com after a deeply frustrating personal experience as a customer left him with no recourse and no resolution. Starting with just $200 and no venture backing, he has grown the platform over the past 20 years into a consumer advocacy powerhouse serving over 30 million users. His message to businesses is consistent: complaints are not your enemy. They are your most honest source of business intelligence.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

87% of consumers contact a company directly before leaving a negative review online. That statistic sits at the heart of everything Michael teaches. By the time a review is posted, the customer has already tried to reach you. The review is not the problem. The missed connection is.

In this conversation, Yanique and Michael explore how organizations of all sizes can shift the way they receive and respond to consumer feedback, including how to categorize complaints by severity, how to establish timelines for resolution, and why the department most often blamed for service failures is rarely the one responsible for causing them.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

From a Bad Vacation to 30 Million Users
Michael shares the origin story behind PissedConsumer.com, which was born from a travel experience that left him with no recourse as a consumer. That frustration became the foundation for one of the largest negative review platforms in the world.

Collective Complaints: A New Way to Get Businesses to Respond
PissedConsumer.com recently introduced a collective complaint feature that groups consumer feedback around a single issue and gathers signatures to amplify the message. Companies that routinely ignore individual complaints have begun responding to collective ones.

Complaints as Small Gifts
72% of consumers who leave negative reviews are trying to protect future customers from the same experience. They want things to improve. Michael's position is that every complaint is a gift, and businesses that receive it that way build stronger relationships than those that deflect or dismiss.

Customer Service Is Not a Deflection Mechanism
Michael addresses one of the most common and costly mistakes in large organizations: treating customer service as a buffer designed to keep consumers away from the business rather than a function empowered to fix the actual problem. When customer service has real authority and clear escalation paths, the feedback loop works.

Empowering Your Team with AI
Michael shares how his organizations have deployed agentic AI systems using multiple models across departments including recruitment, operations, marketing, and deep research. His belief is that business leaders must integrate AI and human institutional knowledge now, not later.

The Last Generation to Manage Only Human Teams
Perhaps the most thought-provoking moment in the conversation comes when Michael reflects on where AI is taking the workforce. His message to his own employees: in nine months, the company will either need 70% fewer people or will be ten times more productive. Every single person chose productivity.

BOOK RECOMMENDATION

Getting Past No by William Ury. Michael has carried this book on negotiation and conflict resolution for over 40 years. For anyone who deals with difficult customers, challenging conversations, or resistant stakeholders, this is the read he points to first.

CONNECT WITH MICHAEL PODOLSKY

LinkedIn: Search Michael Podolsky, PissedConsumer
Website: pissedconsumer.com
Website: wisebrand.com

FOLLOW NAVIGATING THE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE

X (Twitter): @NavigatingCX
Facebook: Navigating the Customer Experience Community
LinkedIn: Yanique Grant
Website: yaniquegrant.com

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NAVIGATING THE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE Episode 274 | Lead With Clarity: Burnout, Cultural Intelligence, and the Strategy Every Leader Needs

What happens to your customers when the leader serving them is running on empty? In this episode, Yanique Grant sits down with Dr. Kerriann M. Peart, organizational psychologist, executive coach, and founder of Island Rooted Co., for a conversation that connects leadership well-being directly to customer experience outcomes.

Dr. Peart brings over 20 years of experience in organizational psychology, public health, and executive coaching, and her work challenges the idea that high performance should come at the expense of people. Drawing on her own journey as a Caribbean woman who navigated three cycles of burnout while building her consulting practice in corporate America, she offers leaders a grounded, practical framework for leading with clarity, cultural intelligence, and personal strategy.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

• How burned-out leaders show up to customers in three distinct patterns, and which one is the rarest and most powerful
• Why happy employees are defined by competence AND capacity, and how both translate directly to the customer experience
• How the anchored bias of "this is how we have always done it" is damaging customer interactions in Caribbean businesses
• The difference between a growth mindset and an agile mindset, and why leaders in culturally diverse environments need the latter
• Why humble leaders go further and last longer than those who demand to be followed
• The one personal strategy shift that will change how customer experience professionals show up, even on their hardest days

BOOKS MENTIONED

• The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran
• The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene
• The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle

CONNECT WITH DR. PEART

• LinkedIn: Search Kerriann Peart
• Website: peartconsulting.org

FOLLOW NAVIGATING THE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE

• X: @NavigatingCX
• Facebook: Navigating the Customer Experience Community
• LinkedIn: Yanique Grant
• Website: yaniquegrant.com/podcasts

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What does it actually take to lead in an era where artificial intelligence is reshaping every industry, every role, and every assumption about how work gets done? On this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, Yanique Grant sits down with Jack Jendo, founder of BrainDigits, AI strategist, and author of Lead Forward, to explore what the future workplace really looks like and why leadership is the most important skill you can develop right now.

Jack brings a perspective shaped by years of working across the Middle East, Europe, and Australia, building AI-powered programs for governments, corporations, and startups. His message is clear: AI is not just a tool. It is a mindset shift, and leaders who understand this will be the ones who define what comes next.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

Jack shares the journey that took him from juggling three jobs during university to running agencies across multiple continents and founding BrainDigits. He talks about why he wrote Lead Forward, a book designed for three types of people he encounters every day: entrepreneurs who are just getting started, senior professionals who feel like their career is winding down when it does not have to be, and leaders in the middle who feel pressure but lack clarity.

Jack also introduces a concept that reframes how leaders can use AI: the Digital Twin. Rather than using AI as a general assistant, Jack trains specialized AI versions of himself, one for brainstorming, one for financial strategy, one for business development. He has been building and refining these tools for years, and the result is a thinking partner that reflects his values, his frameworks, and his way of approaching problems.

THE FUTURE WORKPLACE: AI FIRST OR AI ENABLED?

Jack places AI in the same category as transformative inventions like the printing press and the internet. Each of those disrupted every industry it touched. AI is doing the same. But the change is not primarily about tools. It is about mindset and clarity.

He describes two futures emerging for organizations. The first is a company that adopts AI aggressively without understanding what it is doing, relying on automation without the human judgment to direct it. That organization will struggle. The second is a company led by people who know exactly what they need, who operate with ownership and freedom, and who use AI to remove friction and accelerate execution. That is the organization every leader should be building toward.

AI IS THE NEW LEADERSHIP SKILL

Jack and Yanique explore what it means to treat AI as a leadership skill rather than a software category. His view is that every task with a clear process can now be handled by AI. What cannot be automated is knowing what needs to be done, deciding the direction, and leading people through change.

The leaders who will thrive are those who invest in training their AI tools the same way they would develop a trusted assistant. Not with generic prompts, but with context, values, goals, and frameworks. That investment is what turns a general tool into something genuinely useful.

Jack shares that his two primary tools are ChatGPT, where he has trained a custom model called TwinJack over four years for brainstorming and strategic thinking, and Claude, which he has used for automation over the past year. He describes them as complementary, each with a distinct role, and both trained with the same foundation.

KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE

Experience compounds. Working across multiple roles and industries, especially early in a career, creates a foundation that multiplies future opportunity.

Retirement is not an endpoint. Jack pushes back on the idea that experienced professionals should wind down. Their knowledge, relationships, and judgment are among the most valuable assets available to any organization.

Scaling happens during crisis. When others pull back, Jack leans in. His approach is to build capacity, strengthen teams, and expand during periods of pressure because that is when the real growth happens.

The guiding question Jack returns to during adversity is simple: remember why you started. It is not about nostalgia. It is about using original purpose as an anchor when clarity is hard to find.

BOOKS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Lead Forward by Jack Jendo https://www.amazon.com/s?k=lead+forward+jack+jendo

Start with Why by Simon Sinek https://www.amazon.com/s?k=start+with+why+simon+sinek

Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki https://www.amazon.com/s?k=rich+dad+poor+dad

The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason https://www.amazon.com/s?k=richest+man+in+babylon

TOOLS MENTIONED

ChatGPT (Custom GPT / TwinJack): https://chatgpt.com Claude (AI): https://claude.ai BrainDigits: https://braindigits.com

CONNECT WITH JACK JENDO

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/all/?keywords=jack+jendo Instagram: Search Jack Jendo

Jack responds personally to every message.

FOLLOW NAVIGATING THE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE

X (Twitter): https://x.com/navigatingCX Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/NavigatingtheCustomerExperience LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaniquewagrantcx/ Website: https://yaniquegrant.com/podcasts/

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10 Years, 272 Episodes, and a Lifetime of Lessons: A Mother-Daughter Conversation

This episode is unlike any other in the 272-episode history of Navigating the Customer Experience. To celebrate 10 years of podcasting, host Yanique Grant invited her daughter Summer to turn the tables, Summer takes the microphone and interviews her mom about the journey, the hard lessons, and what the next decade holds. It's personal, honest, and deeply human.

What You'll Hear in This Episode

Yanique shares why she launched the podcast in May 2016 not because podcasting was trending, but because she was genuinely passionate about customer experience and saw a free platform to connect with professionals globally. She credits a podcast coach from Canada with helping her get off the ground, and reflects on how much harder it would have been without today's AI tools.

She opens up about what kept her going through 272 episodes — including taking on solo production after losing her internal team member — and names the guests who have stayed with her over a decade: Matt Swain, Joey Coleman (twice!), Jimi Gibson, Jason Feifer, Jay Baer, Paul Brunson, and Rochelle Gapere.

She talks about the doors podcasting has opened — from sitting on a podcast panel in Arlington, Washington, to serving as Master of Ceremonies at a major BPO Mindshare event in Canada with 100+ global attendees.

And she gets vulnerable about the one thing she'd do differently: stop trying to sound "North American" and just sound like Yanique.

Key Takeaways

• Start with purpose - passion is what sustains a 10-year run, not hype
• Get support early - a coach at the start changes everything
• Be yourself on mic - your voice, your accent, your personality are assets
• Consistency compounds - 272 episodes, one at a time
• Credibility creates opportunity - the podcast opened doors Yanique never planned for
• Relationships are the real ROI

Featured Resources

• Mac Whisper - AI transcription tool
• Claude (AI) - claude.ai - show notes and production workflow
• Buzzsprout - podcast hosting
• CapCut — video editing

Connect with Yanique 🌐 yaniquegrant.com 🐦 X/Twitter: @NavigatingCX 👥 Facebook: Navigating the Customer Experience Community 💼 LinkedIn: Yanique Grant

Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and yaniquegrant.com

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What does it take to walk into a room full of strangers and walk out with real connections? In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, host Yanique Grant sits down with Alexandra Silva Labarr, internationally recognized speaker, author, and founder of Xandra Marketing and PR. Known as the Networking Queen, Alexandra brings over 25 years of experience in marketing, business development, and sales to a conversation that is practical, personal, and deeply inspiring.

Alexandra's journey is one of remarkable resilience. After decades in corporate America, she bet on herself and launched her own marketing firm just before COVID hit, shutting down the in person networking she had built her reputation on. Instead of retreating, she pivoted, went digital, gave back to her community, and emerged stronger. Today, Xandra Marketing and PR helps businesses take full ownership of their marketing, from social media and branding to digital presence and messaging strategy.

Her story starts at 13 years old, when she lost her mother. That experience taught her that finding the right people and leaning on them is not weakness, it is strategy. That understanding became the foundation for everything she has built since, including her Power of Networking Community, now with 15 chapters across South Florida. She is also the author of three books: The Power of Networking, Show Up Scared, and Show Up Scared: Teen Edition, which became an Amazon bestseller and has taken her into schools and universities across the country.

In this episode Alexandra walks us through her Seven Essential C's of Networking and highlights the two people struggle with most: Courage and Common Ground. She explains why most people have courage and confidence backwards, and why showing up scared is the only real path to confidence. She also gets practical, giving you a step by step approach for exactly what to say at a networking event, how to approach a group already in conversation, how to introduce yourself without leading with a pitch, and how to craft a 30 second commercial built around the pain you solve.

Alexandra also shares her thoughts on follow up, encouraging listeners to pick up the phone and let people hear their voice, because authenticity lives in your voice and people do business with people they can feel.

Topics covered include the Seven C's of Networking, courage vs confidence, building common ground, crafting your 30 second commercial, follow up strategy, AI tools for entrepreneurs, and details on the Show Up Scared teen event at the Mayfair Hotel in Coconut Grove on June 23rd.

Featured Resources:

The Power of Networking by Alexandra Silva Labarr available on Amazon

Show Up Scared by Alexandra Silva Labarr available on Amazon

Show Up Scared: Teen Edition by Alexandra Silva Labarr available on Amazon

How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie available on Amazon

It's Not Who You Know, It's Who Knows You available on Amazon

Books by John C. Maxwell available on Amazon

Books by Brené Brown available on Amazon

Claude AI: claude.ai

Show Up Scared Teen Event: June 23rd at the Mayfair Hotel, Coconut Grove, FL. Visit alexandrasilvabar.com for full event details and tickets.

Connect with Alexandra Silva Labarr:

Google her name and everything will appear including her website, social media profiles, upcoming events, and speaking opportunities. She is especially active on LinkedIn and responds to every message personally.

Website: alexandrasilvalabarr.com

Connect with Navigating the Customer Experience:

Follow us on X @NavigatingCX and join our private Facebook group, Navigating the Customer Experience Community. You can also find us on LinkedIn and at yaniquegrant.com.

If this episode added value to you, please share it with a fellow business owner, leave us a review, and subscribe so you never miss a new episode. Thank you for listening and until next time, keep navigating forward.

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"What happens when the inventor of the Video Sales Letter meets AI? Jon Benson joins us for a conversation that will change how you think about creativity, copy, and your business."

In Episode 271 of Navigating the Customer Experience, host Yanique Grant sits down with Jon Benson, the pioneering copywriter and entrepreneur who invented the Video Sales Letter (VSL) the format that became the backbone of modern digital marketing. Since 2010, Jon has been quietly working at the intersection of AI and persuasion science, partnering with early AI companies as far back as 2015 to teach machines the nuances of high-converting copy. Today, he's the creator of BNSN (pronounced "Benson"), a proprietary AI copywriting platform built exclusively for ethical marketers who want to attract their ideal customers not just anyone with a credit card.

But before any of that, Jon was a graphic designer who nearly lost his life. At 38 years old, he suffered a heart attack a consequence of obesity, stress, and burning the candle at both ends. His recovery led him to write a bestselling book on fitness transformation, which launched him unexpectedly into the world of internet marketing and copywriting. It's one of the most compelling origin stories you'll hear, and it sets the tone for everything Jon has built since.

In this episode, Jon and Yanique explore:

🔹 The real problem with AI-generated copy and why most of it sounds hollow, even when it's technically correct

🔹 What Jon calls "HI meets AI" the philosophy of blending Human Intelligence with artificial intelligence to create copy that's fast, high-converting, and authentically YOU

🔹 Why Jon believes consciousness and lived experience are the last truly irreplaceable elements of human creativity and how he uses his own story to prove it

🔹 The right question to ask about AI and your team (hint: it's NOT "How many people can I replace?")

🔹 How Jon's AI assistant, named Isaac, logged into a 6-hour course the night before a strategy meeting, synthesized the entire thing, produced a 1-pager for Jon and a 4-pager for the team, and delivered a full implementation plan... in 18 minutes

🔹 The free tool every business owner should use before writing a single line of copy: freebuyerprofile.com a 15-page report that aligns your values with your ideal buyer

🔹 Why it's better to resonate with 100% of a targeted 10% than to broadcast broadly and attract the wrong clients

🔹 The voice dictation tool that replaced typing for one of the fastest copywriters in the business and how it can unlock faster, friction-free ideation for you

Jon also shares the two books that shaped his philosophy most deeply The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky and Walden by Thoreau and the Thoreau quote that became the compass of his entire entrepreneurial life: "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." He heard it for the first time on the drive to his first and only corporate job and never looked back.

Whether you're a business owner trying to figure out where AI fits in your workflow, a marketer wondering whether human creativity still matters, or an entrepreneur who just wants to build something you're proud of with customers you actually love this episode is for you.

Resources Mentioned:

• BNSN AI Copywriting Platform: bnsn.ai
• Free Buyer Profile Tool: freebuyerprofile.com
• Whisperflow (voice dictation): whisperflow.com
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky
• Walden by Henry David Thoreau

Connect with Jon Benson:

• Website: bnsn.ai
• YouTube: jonbenson.com/YouTube
• Facebook: Search Jon Benson

Follow Navigating the Customer Experience:

• X (Twitter): @NavigatingCX
• Facebook: Navigating the Customer Experience Community
• LinkedIn: Yanique Grant
• Website: yaniquegrant.com

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In this episode, Yanique Grant sits down with Jimi Gibson, VP of Brand Communication at Thrive Internet Marketing Agency, to explore how AI is fundamentally changing business visibility online.

Jimi shares insights from 20+ years in digital marketing and 70+ podcast appearances, discussing the critical shift from traditional SEO to AI Search Optimization (Answer Engine Optimization and Generative Engine Optimization).

Learn why 60% of Google searches don't click through anymore, how to become visible to large language models like ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and why personal branding is now mandatory for business growth in 2026. Discover what the future holds for AI agents, autonomous task management, and how to ensure your business doesn't get left behind.

Key Topics:

• From Magician to Marketing Strategist: Jimi's unexpected career path

• The 60% Google search shift and what it means for your business

• Traditional SEO vs. AI Search Optimization (AEO/GEO)

• How to become visible to large language models

• The future of AI agents and autonomous helpers

• Why YouTube and LinkedIn are critical for AI visibility

• The personal branding revolution: Why it's mandatory now

• Featured books: Jonathan Livingston Seagull & I'm Possible

Resources:

Thrive Internet Marketing Agency: thrive-agency.com

Jimi on LinkedIn: Connect with Jimi for daily AI insights (posts Mon-Fri)

Follow Navigating the Customer Experience:

X (Twitter): @NavigatingCX

Facebook: Navigating the Customer Experience Community

Website: yaniquegrant.com

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In this insightful episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we welcome Victoria Mensch, Founder & CEO of the Silicon Valley Executive Academy, for a powerful conversation on leadership, innovation, and thriving in the age of AI.

With a PhD in Psychology, an MBA from UC Berkeley, and more than 25 years in Silicon Valley, Victoria has built her career at the intersection of human behavior, executive performance, and technological transformation. Arriving in Silicon Valley during the dot-com boom, she was inspired by its bold, world-changing mindset. That culture of innovation shaped her journey from working across semiconductor and software companies to launching her own executive academy, where she helps global leaders apply Silicon Valley’s innovation principles within their own organizations.

A central theme of the episode is how leadership must evolve in today’s fast-changing 2026 environment. Victoria emphasizes that leadership isn’t limited to job titles—it exists at every level. She outlines three essential qualities leaders must cultivate:

Self-Responsibility & Agency – Great leaders take ownership of their choices and focus on what they can control, even amid disruption.

Curiosity – With technological, political, and economic shifts happening constantly, leaders must stay open, adaptable, and willing to explore new perspectives.

Continuous Learning – In the age of AI, growth is non-negotiable. Leaders must embrace learning, develop new skills, and view change as an opportunity rather than a threat.

One of the most powerful discussions centers on reframing failure. Victoria explains that fear of failure is often driven by imagined future scenarios. The key practice is returning to the present moment and rationally assessing reality. She also offers a mindset shift: the probability of success is equal to the probability of failure—yet we tend to focus only on what could go wrong. By consciously balancing those possibilities, leaders can make decisions rooted in clarity instead of fear.

When asked for one word leaders should adopt for 2026, Victoria chooses humanity. As organizations increasingly integrate artificial intelligence, she believes leaders must keep the human element at the forefront. Technology should create space for deeper creativity and stronger connections—not replace them. The goal isn’t simply to be faster or more efficient, but to be better in how we serve and relate to others.

Victoria also shares her excitement about AI-driven automation and tools that eliminate time-draining tasks, freeing leaders to focus on high-value work. She recommends exploring Lovable, a platform that allows users to build applications and landing pages without coding skills. A book that influenced her thinking is Digital Darwinism: Surviving the New Age of Business Disruption by Tom Goodwin, which examines how companies navigate digital transformation.

Her personal guiding quote? “Faith over fear.”

This episode delivers practical leadership insights for executives, entrepreneurs, and professionals ready to embrace change, lead with intention, and remain human in a rapidly evolving digital world.

Connect with Victoria at www.svexecutive.academy and join the conversation on X @navigatingcx or in the Navigating the Customer Experience community.

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, Gal Borenstein, Founder and CEO of The Borenstein Group, joins us for a powerful conversation on trust, branding, and customer experience in the digital and AI era. With nearly 30 years of experience advising growth-oriented organizations in complex and regulated industries, Gal shares how leaders can protect credibility and build sustainable brands when trust is on the line.

Gal’s journey is a true immigration success story. Born and raised in Israel, he served as a military journalist before moving to the United States at 21 to pursue his education. After completing his undergraduate degree at Temple University in just two and a half years and earning a master’s degree from George Mason University, he quickly recognized a major gap in the marketplace: highly technical companies struggled to communicate their value clearly.

Armed with a $2,000 loan and a vision, he launched The Borenstein Group in the Washington, DC area, focusing on helping B2B technology firms connect complex solutions to clear messaging. Over the past three decades, he has worked closely with CEOs and executive teams navigating cybersecurity, AI, advanced analytics, and government contracting—industries where trust, precision, and differentiation are critical.

In this episode, Gal discusses his latest book, Don’t Believe the Hype: When Trust Is On The Line in the Age of Digital and AI, and explores what’s driving the breakdown of trust between brands and customers today.

From his perspective, the erosion of trust accelerated with digital transformation and automation. As companies adopted CRM systems, AI tools, and scripted customer service processes, they unintentionally removed the human element that once anchored relationships. What used to be human-to-human trust has often become process-driven interaction—efficient, but emotionally disconnected. AI can execute tasks faster, but it cannot replace empathy, judgment, or values.

Gal emphasizes that customer experience failures are rarely external problems alone. They usually reflect internal disconnects. Leadership may believe they are communicating clearly, while employees feel unheard or misaligned. Without internal trust, external trust collapses. He challenges organizations to develop a measurable “trust index” that identifies strengths, weaknesses, and perception gaps across departments.

We also explore one of today’s biggest CX threats: fake reviews and AI-generated misinformation. In the past, companies largely controlled their narrative. Today, anonymous posts on review platforms and social media can shape perception overnight. Gal explains that reacting defensively is not enough. Brands must actively monitor conversations, engage in social listening, and integrate feedback into internal systems. Trust must become an ecosystem—shared by executives, middle management, and frontline employees alike.

When asked about tools he relies on, Gal highlights LinkedIn as an essential knowledge hub, connecting professionals across industries and geographies. He also leverages AI platforms like OpenAI, while cautioning leaders to “trust but verify” due to AI hallucinations and inaccuracies.

What excites him most right now is helping companies operationalize trust—turning it from an abstract value into a measurable, monetizable strategy that aligns culture, communication, and customer experience.

His guiding mindset, inspired by Seinfeld, is both humorous and profound: “It’s not a lie if you believe it.” For Gal, this reflects the power of vision. When leaders truly believe in their narrative—and back it with integrity and proof points—they inspire teams, partners, and customers alike.

This episode challenges CX leaders and business professionals to see trust as a critical strategic asset in the age of AI and digital disruption.

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Mark Fithian and Jeff Rosenberg, cofounders of WideOpen, a strategic customer experience (CX) consulting firm, and authors of the book The CX Imperatives: Five Strategic Practices for Renewal of the Customer-Centered Enterprise. With more than 30 years of experience each, Mark and Jeff bring deep insight from working across industries including healthcare, technology, automotive, consumer goods, and professional services.

Mark and Jeff share their professional journeys and the “red thread” that has guided their careers: a commitment to understanding customers as humans, not just data points. From early roles in marketing, operations, and consulting, both authors describe moments when they realized organizations often make decisions without considering how customers truly experience them. That realization ultimately led to the founding of WideOpen and the development of the frameworks outlined in their book.

The conversation centers on The CX Imperatives and its purpose as a practitioner’s guide for CX leaders and professionals who already care about customer experience and want to embed customer centricity across the enterprise. Rather than focusing on one-off “wow moments,” the book emphasizes creating consistent, meaningful experiences across the entire customer journey that align with business strategy and drive growth and innovation. Importantly, the authors stress that the principles are industry-agnostic, applicable to both B2B and B2C organizations of all sizes.

Mark outlines the book’s five strategic CX practices:

1. Insights – deeply understanding customers as emotional, human beings, not just metrics;
2. CX Strategy – aligning customer insights with business objectives to focus effort where it matters most;
3. Blueprinting – translating strategy into operationally actionable designs;
4. Operating Model – enabling cross-functional collaboration through roles, processes, and shared accountability; and
5. Culture – ensuring employees understand, believe in, and are equipped to deliver the intended experience.

Through real-world examples, including healthcare, Mark and Jeff demonstrate how engaging frontline employees and embedding CX into culture can generate both tangible outcomes (cost savings, growth initiatives) and intangible benefits (employee ownership, sustainability, and trust).

The discussion also explores the connection between internal culture and external customer experience, with both guests agreeing that consistently poor CX is often a symptom of internal organizational challenges. They share practical advice for CX leaders navigating varying levels of leadership support, emphasizing the importance of meeting stakeholders where they are and addressing resistance with empathy and clarity.

To bring CX to life, Mark and Jeff each share standout customer experiences—from thoughtful airline journey improvements to an unexpectedly empowering healthcare onboarding experience—illustrating how intentional design can transform how customers feel.

The episode wraps with personal insights into the tools, books, and mindsets that inspire them today, reflections on why this is an exciting time for the CX discipline, and where listeners can connect with them and learn more about their work, workshops, and book.

This episode is a must-listen for leaders and practitioners looking to move beyond surface-level CX and build customer-centered enterprises that deliver sustainable value for both customers and the business.

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Jeremie Kubicek, a powerful communicator, serial entrepreneur, and co-founder of GiANT, a global leadership development company. Jeremie is the author of several influential leadership books, including 5 Voices, 5 Gears, The 100X Leader, The Peace Index, and his newest release, The Voice-Driven Leader.

Jeremie shares his entrepreneurial journey and explains how years of building businesses taught him a critical lesson: while business plans and financial plans matter, it is the people plan that most often determines success or failure. Early in his career, he realized that people were often treated as liabilities rather than assets. This insight led him to dedicate his work to helping leaders understand, develop, and empower people so they can truly thrive.

At the heart of the conversation is Jeremie’s new book, The Voice-Driven Leader. He explains that the most important role in any organization is the team leader—the person who leads people day-to-day. Using the metaphor of a “Sherpa,” Jeremie emphasizes that when a leader is healthy and self-aware, the team they lead is far more likely to be healthy as well. The book helps leaders understand their own voice, personality, and wiring, as well as the voices of those they lead, so they can communicate more effectively and create meaningful development plans.

Jeremie outlines several core leadership principles, especially for those transitioning from peer to leader. These include learning to “speak the language” of others rather than forcing them to adapt to your style, clearly defining expectations and development paths, and guiding people through the discomfort of learning—what he calls the “pit of despair.” By understanding how people are wired and how they respond under stress, leaders can better support growth and avoid unnecessary breakdowns.

The conversation also explores how communication has evolved, particularly across generations, and how small misunderstandings—tone, emojis, or short messages—can unintentionally damage relationships if leaders are not intentional and aware.

Jeremie shares what excites him most right now: his focus on the idea that peace is power. He explains that leaders cannot give what they do not possess. If a leader is not at peace internally, their leadership and customer experience efforts will feel transactional rather than authentic. He introduces The Peace Index, a practical framework that helps individuals assess peace across five areas of life, reinforcing the idea that personal well-being directly impacts professional effectiveness.

Listeners also hear about the tool Jeremie uses daily—the 5 Voices App, an AI-powered resource designed to help people navigate communication, relationships, and leadership based on personality dynamics. He recommends Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara as a book that deeply influenced his thinking on journeys, employee experience, and customer experience.

Jeremie closes by sharing simple yet powerful phrases he uses during challenging times, including “Choose joy” and “Call up, not out,” reminding us that leadership begins within. This episode is a compelling reminder that great customer experiences start with healthy, self-aware leaders who are alive, at peace, and intentional about how they show up every day.

Connect with Jeremie Kubicek

www.jeremiekubicek.com

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Jean-Pierre LaCroix—President and Chief Strategy Officer of SLD, brand visionary, author, and creator of groundbreaking tools such as the Trust Ladder and the Ideal Omni Experience Model. With more than 46 years of experience helping global organizations transform their retail, brand, and customer experience ecosystems, Jean-Pierre brings deep insight into what it truly takes to build emotionally resonant brands.

Jean-Pierre begins by sharing his personal journey—from growing up on an Air Force base in Germany to working long days on his family’s farm, to discovering his passion for design at Sheridan College. Launching his first firm just two years after graduating, he eventually built SLD into a leading global strategic design agency.

He then dives into his latest book, ThinkBlink Manifesto, which distills decades of experience into seven core tenets for creating emotionally connected brands. Jean-Pierre explains why emotional equity—not features, benefits, or promotions—is what customers respond to most deeply. The seven tenets include:

1. Owning the Emotional Moment
2. Personifying the Emotional Value Through Design
3. Communicating a Compelling Brand Story
4. Understanding Target Personas Beyond Demographics
5. Creating Belonging Experiences
6. Measuring What Truly Matters (Emotional Metrics)
7. Future-Proofing the Brand

Jean-Pierre discusses how leaders can shift beyond pre-COVID thinking by embracing new metrics, strengthening community and belonging for employees and customers, and leveraging SLD’s newly launched ThinkBlink AI Assessment tool to evaluate emotional connection, differentiation, and future readiness.

He also highlights companies that exemplify these principles—such as Apple, Harley-Davidson, and Canadian innovator Cineplex—organizations that have built loyalty and community through purpose-driven experiences.

A voracious reader, Jean-Pierre shares the books that have shaped him most, including Blue Ocean Strategy, The Challenger Mindset, and Nudge. He also opens up about what he’s currently excited about: becoming a grandfather and being invited once again as a keynote speaker at the Financial Brand Forum.

To close the episode, he shares his personal mantra for challenging times:
“Leadership is about seeing the opportunity in the challenges versus the challenges in the opportunity.”

Connect with Jean-Pierre on LinkedIn or visit www.sld.com
for tools, insights, and free resources.

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Ty Givens, the dynamic Founder and CEO of CX Collective, a consultancy known for building customer experience programs that scale while still feeling human. With a career that began at just 18 years old, Ty walks us through her remarkable journey from her first customer service desk at Office Depot to leading global teams and eventually launching her own company nine years ago.

Ty shares how an early promotion into workforce management shaped her analytical mindset and laid the foundation for her future leadership roles. After years of being called in to “fix” support operations, she recognized that real transformation requires more than one person—it requires systems, collaboration, and a dedicated team. That realization became the catalyst for starting CX Collective.

One of her greatest rewards today is witnessing the tangible results of her team’s work—whether it's improving a help center’s searchability or strengthening an AI knowledge base. Ty describes herself as results-driven and energized by project-based outcomes that create long-term value for clients.

Ty also opens up about the emotional challenges of leading support teams. Early leadership training at Intuit, combined with her MBA in Organizational Leadership, helped her develop a grounded approach centered on emotional intelligence, inquiry, and humility. Recognizing her strengths as an operator rather than a novice-leader coach, she began developing CX playbooks—practical guides that help leaders navigate common challenges, from time management to launching AI programs. These playbooks have become both her most essential tool and a source of self-reflection.

Ty talks about the importance of community, staying curious about industry trends, and the advantage of having worked inside many different organizations. She also shares the fiction authors who shaped her love for storytelling—Eric Jerome Dickey and Carl Weber—and why their writing continues to resonate.

We also explore what Ty is most excited about these days: celebrating her niece’s freshman year at Tuskegee University and being stretched professionally as she leans into marketing her playbooks to a broader audience—an entirely new frontier after years of organic, word-of-mouth growth.

Ty closes the conversation with two powerful affirmations from her grandparents that guide her through adversity:

“You can do anything you put your mind to,” and “Lace up your bootstraps.” These messages remind her to stay grounded, confident, and ready to face whatever comes.

Connect with us on X @navigatingcx and join our private Facebook community, Navigating the Customer Experience.

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we dive deep into the career and mindset of Jamie Homen, a seasoned customer experience (CX) leader with over 20 years in the industry. Now leading CX at Mural, an AI-powered visual collaboration platform, Jamie shares valuable perspectives on effective leadership, cross-functional alignment, and how customer-centric decisions drive business success.

🛤️ Jamie’s Journey into Customer Experience

Starting as a call center agent, Jamie never anticipated becoming a Chief Customer Officer. He has watched the field mature and is now thrilled to see customer experience earn a seat at the executive table. At Mural, he’s helping customers visualize collaborative work in a remote world, which he believes is central to modern CX strategies.

💡 Key Leadership Insights

To drive customer success in today’s dynamic environment, Jamie focuses on two major practices:

1. Cross-Functional Alignment: Ensuring teams like sales, marketing, product, and CX operate cohesively. He emphasizes co-creation to close gaps and build customer-centric processes.
2. Empowering Teams: Encouraging employees at all levels to make customer-first decisions, supported by ongoing development and understanding of individual skill sets—especially as AI reshapes roles.

🧠 Overcoming Challenges

Jamie shares a personal story: in high school, he was told he shouldn't pursue college. Refusing to let that define him, he pushed forward and earned three degrees. This experience now fuels his belief in perseverance and self-motivation—key traits he brings into his leadership.

🛠️ Can’t-Live-Without Tool

ChatGPT tops Jamie’s list for its ability to generate ideas, create personas, and gather insights. He predicts a growing shift from traditional search platforms to AI-powered tools across industries.

📚 Book Recommendation

Managing Up by Rosanne Badowski has had a lasting impact on Jamie’s leadership approach, especially in building effective relationships with managers—a skill he considers timeless despite changing workplace technology.

🤖 What’s Exciting Jamie Now

AI transformation. He’s focused on integrating AI across Mural to better understand customers and enhance internal workflows without losing the human element—AI as an enabler, not a replacement.

💬 Favorite Quote

“Adversity introduces a man to himself.” — Albert Einstein
Jamie uses this quote as a reminder to reflect, grow, and persist through obstacles.

🔗 Connect with Jamie

LinkedIn – Jamie Homen
Website – mural.co/blog

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Evan Siegel, Vice President of AI at eGain, where he leads the development of next-generation AI-powered conversational guidance. With a rich background that includes 16 years at Wells Fargo leading customer experience and contact center innovation, Evan brings deep insight into how technology can drive better service outcomes without losing the human touch.

Evan’s career journey began in entrepreneurship — running a successful residential painting business that grew to 300 employees before he sold it and pursued an MBA at Stanford. His experience at Wells Fargo honed his expertise in solving large-scale customer pain points and improving first-contact resolution in massive contact centers. Those experiences led him to eGain, a company dedicated to providing “the right answer to the right person at the right time, in the right channel.”

Evan explains that eGain’s AI-powered knowledge management platform helps companies clean, update, and centralize information so agents can quickly find accurate answers. This not only improves customer satisfaction but also transforms efficiency—some clients have seen up to 37% improvement in first-contact resolution, a 30-point rise in Net Promoter Score, and 50% reduction in training time. For instance, eGain supports the U.S. Veterans Administration, the country’s largest healthcare provider, to deliver consistent, fast, and empathetic service across millions of interactions.

A key theme in the discussion is balancing technology and empathy. Evan emphasizes that AI doesn’t replace human connection—it enhances it by freeing up employees’ mental space to focus on emotional intelligence and rapport-building. By handling the “how” of issue resolution, AI lets people focus on the “who.”

He also shares how eGain builds knowledge bases for each company by analyzing customer inquiries, extracting top issues using AI, and rewriting existing materials to align with best practices for clarity and accessibility. This process—once lengthy and manual—can now be done in days or weeks.

When asked about tools he can’t live without, Evan points to AI assistants like ChatGPT, Claude, and Perplexity, which he uses daily as brainstorming and writing partners. His motto: “AI won’t replace me, but someone who knows how to use AI better than me will.”

Evan also discusses two books that shaped him: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, which taught him the power of genuine curiosity in relationships, and William Manchester’s three-part biography of Winston Churchill, which inspired lessons in conviction, communication, and strategic thinking.

Today, what excites Evan most is collaborative leadership—bringing teams together to brainstorm, check egos at the door, and make the best collective decisions. His guiding philosophy: “I don’t need to be the smartest person in the room. I need to make the best decision coming out of the room.”

He closes with another favorite quote: “You miss every shot you don’t take.” For Evan, this embodies the spirit of innovation at eGain—experiment fast, learn fast, and keep improving.

Listeners can connect with Evan on LinkedIn or email him at esiegel@egain.com
to learn more about eGain’s new AI self-service agent for small businesses, featuring reasoning capabilities, a free trial, and no-contract flexibility.

Follow us on X @navigatingcx, and join our Navigating the Customer Experience Facebook community for more insights and resources.

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Greg Logan: The Power of Storytelling – Turning Brands into Blockbusters

In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we are joined by Greg Logan, a global leader in brand storytelling who has spent over 30 years helping the world’s biggest brands—from Adobe and Netflix to Virgin and Qantas—connect with audiences through stories that reach both the head and the heart. With award-winning experience in advertising, television, and film, Greg has built his company, Narrativity, on a powerful idea: brands can learn the secrets of Hollywood storytelling to become loved, not just known.

In this episode, Greg shares his remarkable journey from a 10-year-old fascinated by TV commercials to a top creative at Leo Burnett, where he spent 17 years shaping global campaigns. After a successful career in advertising, he transitioned to entertainment, selling reality show ideas to major U.S. networks. But when he realized that brands were being told why they should tell stories but not how, Greg combined his knowledge of advertising and entertainment to develop storytelling formulas that now help businesses worldwide emotionally engage customers.

Greg breaks down the three keys to connecting with audiences through storytelling. First, use structure—every story needs a clear beginning, middle, and end. Second, make the audience the hero, not the brand. Your business is the wise guide that helps them achieve their quest. Finally, start with the customer’s greatest tension—what keeps them up at night—and end with their greatest love—what they truly desire. By triggering emotion first, you capture attention and make your brand memorable. Greg illustrates this with a powerful case: a New Zealand water company that transformed its message from rational facts to emotional storytelling, landing products in Whole Foods and other major retailers.

He also shares a deeply moving example from his work with a palliative care organization. Using his “quest formula,” they defined their purpose as “giving people their best death possible”—a phrase that brought everyone in the room to tears and perfectly captured their true value. For Greg, these are the stories that matter most.

When it comes to technology, Greg has a balanced approach to AI. While he appreciates its efficiency, he cautions that AI-generated writing often sounds generic. His tip: use AI to edit, not replace your voice—and give it personality by prompting it to write like your favorite celebrity. He also recommends checking out his new tool, storytellingquiz.com, which helps businesses evaluate and strengthen their brand story.

Greg recently released his book, Creating a Blockbuster Brand: Hollywood’s Storytelling Secrets For Your Business, designed to give readers practical, page-by-page value. A book that has deeply influenced him is The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff—a beautifully simple blend of philosophy and wisdom through Winnie the Pooh.

Looking ahead, Greg is excited about his new collaboration with UK-based BoltAI and their product, Foretold, which uses storytelling principles to help companies innovate faster and smarter by testing new ideas directly with consumers. It’s storytelling not just for marketing—but for invention.

Greg’s guiding mantra during challenges? “Suck it up.” It’s a reminder that as entrepreneurs, we choose this path—and perspective turns frustration into fuel.

Connect with Greg:
Instagram: @gregloganofficial | LinkedIn: Greg Logan | Website: narrativity.com

Books Mentioned:
Creating a Blockbuster Brand by Greg Logan
The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we welcome back Joseph Michelli, a certified customer experience professional, New York Times and Wall Street Journal #1 bestselling author, and internationally sought-after keynote speaker. Known for his books on iconic brands such as The Ritz-Carlton, Mercedes-Benz, Starbucks, Zappos, and Airbnb, Joseph brings decades of insight on how leaders and frontline teams can elevate human experiences.

We dive into his latest book, All Business Is Personal: One Medical’s Human-Centered, Technology-Powered Approach to Customer Engagement. Joseph highlights how One Medical—now part of Amazon—revolutionized healthcare delivery by combining AI and digital convenience with deeply personal human connections. He explains how technology can remove inefficiencies, like long waits and scheduling frustrations, while still keeping care human-centered. His insights underscore the importance of balancing automation with empathy—especially as industries increasingly adopt AI.

On the topic of patient comfort with digital healthcare, Joseph notes the learning curve. While technology can enhance convenience, it must never replace the human connection where it matters most. He shares examples of how One Medical redesigned workflows so patients were seen promptly, providers spent less time on charts, and the overall experience felt more personal, not less. The takeaway: technology should enable more meaningful human interactions, not eliminate them.

Looking ahead to 2026, Joseph outlines three key priorities for CX leaders:

1. AI-readiness – Organizations must understand how AI is influencing customer interactions and ensure their brand is positioned effectively in AI-driven recommendations.
2. Convenience and hyper-personalization – Customers expect seamless, tailored experiences; tone-deaf or generic messaging erodes loyalty.
3. Human-empowered service – Well-trained, emotionally intelligent employees remain essential for delivering authentic, personalized experiences.

Joseph also shares exciting news: the launch of a fully online Master’s Degree in Customer Experience at Campbellsville University. This program equips professionals with academic and practical tools—from persona-based journey mapping to ecosystem design—to advance CX as a business-driving discipline.

When discussing the core competencies for CX representatives, Joseph emphasizes emotional intelligence as the foundation. Empathy, self-awareness, managing emotions, and understanding what customers should feel in every interaction are crucial across all industries. Leaders, meanwhile, must also master influence, persistence, vision, and the ability to deliver measurable business outcomes.

Joseph closes with a guiding philosophy he leans on during challenges: “Service serves us.” By focusing on creating value for others, we in turn are enriched. Yet he also reminds us that service must be balanced with self-respect—serving up to the point where we are valued, not devalued.

This rich conversation covers Joseph’s career journey, the evolving role of AI, the future of CX leadership, and the enduring importance of empathy in business. Don’t miss this chance to learn from one of the leading voices in customer experience.

Links Mentioned:

• All Business Is Personal: One Medical’s Human-Centered, Technology-Powered Approach to Customer Engagement by Joseph A. Michelli
• Campbellsville University’s Master of Science in Customer Experience program
• Free guide: The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we are joined by Peter Ryan, President and Founder of Ryan Strategic Advisory, is recognized globally as one of the foremost experts in customer experience (CX) and business process outsourcing (BPO). For over two decades, Peter has advised CX outsourcers, enterprises, governments, and associations on strategic issues like technology deployment, offshore positioning, and service delivery. He is also the publisher of the annual CX Technology and Global Services Survey, considered the most comprehensive look into the minds of enterprise CX leaders across North America, Europe, and Asia Pacific.

Peter’s journey into CX began in London more than 20 years ago at Data Monitor, a market analysis firm. Though unfamiliar with CRM at the time, his curiosity and willingness to learn launched a career that has since evolved into running his own advisory business for nearly a decade. Today, he is a trusted voice in the industry, helping organizations align technology, outsourcing, and strategy to elevate customer experience.

A highlight of Peter’s work is his CX Technology and Global Services Survey. Now in its 8th year, the study benchmarks enterprise priorities, investment areas, and challenges. The 2025 survey, with over 800 decision-makers, revealed three major themes:

1. Data security, compliance, and regulation remain top concerns, with leaders prioritizing fraud prevention, cybersecurity, and privacy compliance.
2. BPO partnerships continue to grow, proving outsourcing is now integral to CX delivery.
3. AI fatigue is rising. While organizations remain interested, fewer leaders expect demand for AI tools to increase, instead seeking real, proven use cases.

Peter also co-founded the CX Outsourcers Conference with Tracy Freeman and Mark Angus. Since 2018, it has become a global gathering of CX and outsourcing leaders, offering unfiltered dialogue and cross-industry perspectives. After stops in Las Vegas, Atlanta, and Munich, the next conference will take place in Ottawa in 2026—their first outside the U.S.

Looking ahead to 2026 and beyond, Peter identifies two priorities for CX leaders:

1. Fix declining service levels. Consumer satisfaction is hitting historic lows, with indexes in the U.S. and U.K. “plumbing new depths.” Leaders must ask why customers feel underserved and address the gaps.
2. Fight for CX investment. Leaders must secure budgets to evolve people, processes, and technology. Relying on outdated methods won’t work—organizations need continual recalibration to retain customers cost-effectively.

Beyond strategy, Peter shares his personal inspirations. Two books shaped his outlook: What Does This Button Do? by Bruce Dickinson, which illustrates the power of lifelong learning and reinvention, and The Hawke Memoirs by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke, highlighting resilience and decisive leadership.

For daily productivity, Peter relies on WhatsApp, which has become his go-to professional communication tool, far more effective than overloaded email inboxes.

Currently, Peter is most excited about growing the CX Outsourcers community, creating safe spaces for executives to collaborate, share best practices, and elevate the industry without the pressure of sales.

When it comes to adversity, Peter lives by the philosophy that “things can only get better” and emphasizes personal responsibility: while external factors may be uncontrollable, we remain masters of our own destiny.

This episode offers a rich perspective on CX strategy, outsourcing trends, and the leadership mindset required for the years ahead.

Recommended Books:

• What Does This Button Do? – Bruce Dickinson
• The Hawke Memoirs – Bob Hawke

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we are joined John McCahan who is a Customer Experience and Service Executive Leader who has transformed CX across industries including automotive, banking, logistics, manufacturing, retail, and most recently at FTD, where he led its post-bankruptcy customer experience transformation. Currently a Board Member of FullCircle and Advisory Board Member for Execs in the Know, John’s career spans leadership roles at Avon, Milacron, Fifth Third Bank, Target, and Equifax, as well as eight years of service as a U.S. Army Captain. He was recently named one of the “100 Leaders Transforming Customer Experience.”

In this conversation, John shares how his journey into CX began unexpectedly after his military career, when he was asked to lead an underperforming contact center. He discovered his passion for helping people help others and driving organizations to improve execution in service delivery. He emphasizes that customer issues often stem not from frontline staff but from organizational execution failures.

Top Competencies for Exceptional Service Delivery
John identifies three critical behaviors that cut across all industries:

1. Meet customers where they want to be met—via phone, chat, AI, or digital channels, adapting to customer preferences across demographics and cultures.
2. Leverage frontline insights—agents hear customer issues daily and provide the most accurate view of recurring problems. Fixing root causes reduces unnecessary contacts and strengthens customer trust.
3. Embed CX into company culture—true transformation happens when CX is embraced across the entire organization, not just by service teams.

Convincing Leadership of CX Value
John shares strategies for professionals struggling to gain executive buy-in: (1) identify and track metrics that matter, (2) ensure CX leaders have a voice where decisions are made, and (3) live customer centricity through action. He highlights loyalty and lifetime value (LTV) as vital measures, citing FTD’s success in more than doubling its LTV by shifting from transactional interactions to long-term relationships. He also stresses patience—cultural change takes years, not months, to take hold.

Vendor and Partner Alignment
John’s credo, “Find vendors and partners that fit your business,” underscores his belief that success requires alignment in vision, culture, and technology. He shares examples where misaligned outsourcing relationships caused friction, while true partnerships created collaboration, transparency, and innovation. He draws on military principles such as “Fail fast, fail early, fail small” and occasionally “Ask forgiveness, not permission” to illustrate how decisive leadership can accelerate progress.

AI and the Future of CX
For John, AI is not about replacing people but enhancing effectiveness. He uses Microsoft Copilot daily and is especially excited about the potential of Agentic AI—intelligent systems that anticipate and personalize experiences. He imagines applications like concerts or restaurants where AI tailors interactions to individual preferences, turning ordinary transactions into memorable moments.

Books and Inspirations
Two books deeply influenced his leadership: Who Moved My Cheese? by Spencer Johnson, which taught him to embrace change, and Would You Do That to Your Mother? by Jeanne Bliss, which reinforced empathetic, customer-first leadership. He illustrates this philosophy with a powerful story of a loyal 91-year-old customer sending monthly flowers to his wife, showing how empowered, compassionate agents can turn service failures into loyalty-building experiences.

Listeners can connect with John on LinkedIn. Follow us on X @navigatingcx and join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience.

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In this compelling episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we are joined by global hospitality executive, author, and social entrepreneur Carmen Vlasceanu. With over 25 years of experience in hospitality, aviation, catering, and cruise industries, Carmen shares her remarkable journey from growing up in communist Romania to becoming a transformative leader in customer experience and organizational growth. She holds advanced degrees in Revenue Management, International Business, and Marketing, and is also the founder of Angels-Wings.org, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting underprivileged children with food, clothing, and education.

Carmen’s latest endeavor is her book, Dare to C.A.R.E: Unlock Your Potential to Transform Your Life, Well-Being and Customer Experience. The book presents the C.A.R.E. Model, which stands for Connection, Authenticity, Reengineering, and Evolution. It offers a humanistic framework that empowers individuals and organizations to align purpose with service delivery—moving beyond transactional interactions to deeply meaningful customer engagement.

The conversation explores the multi-layered value of the book—both as inspirational reading and a practical workbook. Carmen explains how Dare to C.A.R.E is filled with bullet-point strategies that help individuals rediscover purpose, boost mental wellness, and reconnect with their natural strengths. For leaders and managers, it provides applicable tools to enhance team cohesion, foster authentic communication, and build a purpose-driven work culture. The goal is simple yet profound: when individuals thrive, organizations—and by extension, customers—thrive too.

While the book draws heavily from Carmen’s hospitality background, it transcends industries. Whether you're in banking, retail, pharma, or any customer-facing sector, the lessons in Dare to C.A.R.E are universal. Carmen emphasizes that customer experience today is everyone's business, not just that of the hospitality sector

When asked about a single word that organizations should focus on for the latter half of 2025, Carmen shares three: Resilience, Purpose, and Legacy. These values are the backbone of not just business success, but meaningful human impact. She quotes, “The day you plant the seed is not the day you eat the fruit,” encouraging listeners to invest long-term in values that matter.

A deeply spiritual person, Carmen credits the Bible as her most indispensable daily tool, using it for both personal inspiration and professional grounding. She believes that every act of kindness, however small, can ignite lasting change—be it for a colleague, customer, or community member.

As for books that shaped her worldview, she highlights "Soar!: Building Your Vision from the Ground Up" by T.D. Jakes, a guide that emphasizes perseverance, vision, and service to others. She believes that in a world increasingly marked by division, it's crucial to focus on shared humanity and collective growth.

Carmen also shares her excitement about her ongoing projects, including the Global Hospitality and Maritime Leaders platform—offering mentoring, coaching, and personalized training for professionals seeking growth or career pivots. In tandem, her nonprofit Angels-Wings continues to expand its impact, giving hope and practical support to vulnerable children and families.

She closes with a powerful reminder that “Daring to care” isn’t just a slogan—it’s a call to action. When we align who we are with what we do, and when organizations operate from a place of purpose, transformation happens—not just in metrics, but in lives.

Connect with Carmen:

• Website: ghleaders.com
• Nonprofit: angels-wings.org

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In this compelling episode of Navigating the Customer Experience Podcast, we speak with Jay Sapovits, a dynamic and resilient entrepreneur with a flair for reinvention. Jay’s journey began with a bold move across the country at age 18, setting the tone for a life rich in unconventional choices and high-profile experiences. With a knack for spotting opportunity in adversity, Jay has built a career rooted in innovation, grit, and human connection.

From Retail to Revolutionary: The Ink Stores Story

Jay is currently leading Ink Stores, a full-service promotional company specializing in on-demand webstores. Originally a traditional storefront business, the pandemic forced a dramatic pivot. In response, Jay transformed the company into an online powerhouse that builds, hosts, and fulfills custom merchandise stores for businesses—with no inventory, minimums, or upfront costs. This reinvention not only helped Ink Stores survive but thrive in a competitive, post-COVID market.

Real-World Impact: Swag Without the Hassle

Jay shares a powerful client use case involving a holiday employee gift initiative. Rather than requiring HR to manage sizing, style, and distribution of branded jackets, Ink Stores created a custom online portal. Employees could independently select sizes, styles, and colors, and orders were shipped directly to them—eliminating friction, protecting employee dignity, and freeing HR from uncomfortable sizing conversations. It's a prime example of how Ink’s model prioritizes autonomy, convenience, and a seamless experience.

Jay’s Must-Have Business Tools & Books

When asked about a tool he can’t live without, Jay simply answers: Email. He's responsive to a fault—often replying within seconds—and views this real-time communication style as a core operational strength.

Two books stand out in shaping Jay’s business philosophy:

• Dig Your Well Before You’re Thirsty by Harvey Mackay – A classic on proactive networking.
• How to Become a Rainmaker by Jeffrey Fox – Jay's all-time favorite sales book, packed with short, punchy insights on winning and keeping clients. He frequently recommends it to job candidates and young professionals.

Strategic Priorities in Uncertain Times

As 2025 unfolds amid economic pressure and political shifts, Jay remains grounded. His three focus areas:

1. Stay connected with customers
2. Follow industry trends
3. Prioritize team culture and employee well-being

Notably, Jay refuses to raise prices despite rising supplier costs. He views opportunistic pricing as short-sighted and is committed to rewarding loyal customers with price stability—or even reductions. His values stand in contrast to what he calls “price gouging” across many industries.

What’s Next? A Leap Into Tech

Jay is currently expanding his capabilities through tech and AI by interviewing candidates for data science and development roles—areas outside his comfort zone but essential for scaling customer experience. His willingness to push into unfamiliar territory speaks volumes about his growth mindset.

Words to Live By

Jay shares a simple but profound quote taped to his computer:
“If you promise someone something, keep it.”

He explains that success is a series of doing simple things right—choosing the next right action, over and over again. In Jay’s eyes, life isn’t about making mistakes unknowingly; it’s about consciously choosing right versus wrong. Stacking up the right choices, he believes, leads to a meaningful, impactful life.

Connect with Jay Sapovits:
🌐 Website: www.inkdstores.com
💼 LinkedIn: Jay Sap

🎧 Don’t forget to follow us on X @navigatingcx and join our private Facebook community!

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Fran Brzyski, CEO and Co-Founder of Hark, the leader in video and audio-driven customer feedback. With over a decade of experience in CX and Voice of Customer roles spanning startups to Fortune 50s, Fran brings a wealth of insight into transforming how brands listen and respond to customers in the modern age.

Fran’s journey to entrepreneurship wasn’t linear. He began in finance at a major bank but quickly realized the corporate world wasn’t for him. Driven by a desire to innovate and execute quickly, he pivoted into the startup world, embracing the highs and lows along the way. After working across sectors including biotech, risk and compliance, and e-commerce, he found his calling in software — drawn by the rapid feedback loops and opportunity for fast-paced innovation. Inspired by his supportive wife and parents, Fran took a leap of faith, second-mortgaged his home, and founded Hark.

So, what is Hark? Fran explains that Hark was born from a realization that customer communication was evolving rapidly. While people freely share stories on social media, brand interactions remained stuck in outdated forms and text-based surveys. Hark changes that by enabling customers to share feedback via audio, video, screen share, and text — creating a multimodal, emotionally rich experience that makes people feel truly heard.

Hark not only captures more meaningful customer stories, but also analyzes them to extract trends and insights across departments. The platform facilitates faster feedback loops and deeper cross-functional collaboration — turning traditional customer feedback into an engaging, action-driven experience that transforms how teams operate.

Fran shares powerful use cases where Hark has driven real change. In one example, a beauty brand identified a pump issue that was initially thought to be a product defect. Through Hark’s insights, they discovered it was actually a fulfillment problem — saving time, money, and improving the customer experience. Another eyewear company revamped its NPS strategy, using Hark to elevate promoters into champions, fostering brand loyalty in ways they’d never seen before.

When asked about tools he can't live without, Fran points to ChatGPT, noting its versatility in helping him brainstorm, optimize operations, and make strategic decisions — effectively serving as his go-to AI business partner.

Books that have influenced him? "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz stands out for helping him tune into what truly drives personal happiness and freedom, a mindset he carries into both life and leadership.

What’s Fran excited about right now? Both professionally and personally, a lot. He’s energized by the accelerating pace of AI innovation, especially how it’s reshaping product development and testing. Personally, raising three young kids under six keeps him grounded and present, giving him fresh perspective every day.

On staying motivated, Fran emphasizes self-awareness, structure, and support. He prioritizes sleep, exercise, and quality time with his family. He also works with a coach and practices meditation to stay mentally clear and present — knowing that founder life is a marathon, not a sprint.

His favorite quote? One from his mom: “This isn’t a dress rehearsal, this life.” It’s a reminder to be bold, stay grounded, and live intentionally — a philosophy he carries with him into every business decision.

Connect with Fran:

• Fran Brzyski on LinkedIn
• Hark on LinkedIn

Tune in to learn how Fran is disrupting customer feedback

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we’re joined by Eric Karofsky, an award-winning expert in customer experience (CX), user experience (UX), and employee engagement, and the founder of VectorHX, a human experience agency. Eric shares his professional journey—from decades in agency and consultancy work with major brands like Michelin and Royal Caribbean, to leading UX at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, and now building his own company focused on creating seamless customer interactions across digital and physical touchpoints.

Eric discusses how AI is rapidly reshaping the customer experience landscape, emphasizing that it’s a powerful tool—not a solution on its own. He shares both the promise and the current limitations of AI, particularly in customer support scenarios, likening poorly designed chatbots to frustrating call center loops from the 1980s.

A major theme in the episode is understanding customer behavior through cultural, situational, and demographic lenses. Eric cautions against forcing users into preferred communication channels and instead advises companies to map the ideal journey for different personas and optimize each channel for a frictionless experience.

He offers a powerful case study from the pharmaceutical industry, where AI is being used to transform labor-intensive literature reviews—cutting timelines from six months to potentially two weeks. This not only boosts business efficiency but also accelerates drug development, delivering life-saving treatments to patients faster.

Eric also touches on:

• AI leadership and how it should drive business strategy by identifying areas for efficiency and innovation.
• Tools he can't live without, like Claude AI and Notion, which he uses to manage his business and ideas.
• His excitement about no-code tools like Bolt.new and Lovable, which allow rapid prototyping of full-stack apps without technical skills.
• The enduring value of classic books like Getting to Yes and The Design of Everyday Things, which shaped his thinking around negotiation and customer-centric design.
• The importance of motivation and resilience, fueled by the exciting pace of innovation and meaningful human connections with clients and team members.

He closes with a favorite quote by Benjamin Franklin:

"Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn."
A reminder of the value of active learning and mentorship in building strong, collaborative teams.

You’ll leave this episode with fresh insights on CX, AI strategy, and how to build human-centered experiences in a rapidly evolving digital world.

🔗 Connect with Eric Karofsky:
🌐 Website: www.vectorhx.com
🔗 LinkedIn: Eric Karofsky

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In this powerful episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we sit down with Dave Garrison, leadership strategist, former CEO, and author of The Buy-In Advantage: Why Employees Don’t Care – and What Great Leaders Do to Inspire Them to Give Their All. With over 25 years of experience leading and advising public and private companies—including Ameritrade—Dave shares his journey from CEO to co-founder of Garrison Growth, where he helps leaders transform workplace culture and team engagement.

Dave’s Journey from CEO to Culture Champion

Dave opens up about his personal transformation—from leading multinational corporations to discovering his passion for helping people reach their full potential. Encouraged by close friends who questioned whether being a high-profile CEO was truly bringing him joy, Dave embarked on a path that led to founding Garrison Growth. Today, his mission is to help leaders create workplace environments where employees thrive—and where customers feel that impact.

Why Engagement is Dropping (And How to Reverse It)

Dave discusses startling insights from Gallup’s latest data showing that global employee engagement has dropped again. He explains that no leader wants a disengaged workforce, and no employee chooses to disengage—but without intentional focus, engagement simply won’t happen. Because it's not commonly reinforced by investors or executive dashboards, many leaders unknowingly neglect it.

The “Gas Factor” and What Really Drives Engagement

Leaders often default to surface-level perks like bonuses, free food, or ping-pong tables to boost morale. While appreciated, these don’t move the needle. Dave reveals that employees today—especially Gen Z—are more motivated by meaningful impact, alignment with purpose, and strong team relationships. When employees feel heard, valued, and connected to a bigger mission, that’s when true engagement happens.

From Micromanaging to Empowerment

Micromanaging often comes from good intentions but can stifle team growth. Dave challenges leaders to identify the one or two areas where their close involvement truly adds value and let go of control in other areas. Referencing Steve Jobs’ hyper-focus on design, he urges leaders to trust the “collective genius” of their teams and foster an environment of trust and autonomy.

The Three Pillars: Inspired People, Smart Outcomes, Empowered Teams

In The Buy-In Advantage, Dave outlines three key pillars of high-performing organizations. The biggest challenge he sees? Prioritization. Many leaders overwhelm teams with long lists of goals. He stresses the importance of narrowing focus to just three core priorities and engaging the team in bringing them to life. The secret? Creating alignment through conversations, not commands—what Dave calls a “done with” not “done to” mindset.

Making Values Stick Through Storytelling

Company values can’t just live on a poster. Dave champions storytelling as a powerful way to reinforce culture. He shares practical examples like executives spending time in customer service centers or calling clients directly—not to promote products, but to deeply understand their needs. These experiences yield stories that inspire teams and reinforce the company’s purpose in meaningful, memorable ways.

AI as a Game-Changer

When asked about a tool he can’t live without, Dave points to AI—specifically tools like Claude and ChatGPT. He emphasizes the importance of input quality, recommending leaders use detailed, emotionally contextual prompts (about 400 words) to get the most powerful results from AI, especially for brainstorming and problem-solving.

Books That Shaped Dave’s Thinking

Two books had a significant influence on Dave’s approach to

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, we talk with Justin Baer, an entrepreneur passionate about blending comfort and style into professional wear. Justin shares his journey from a tech-focused entrepreneur to founding Collars & Co., known for their innovative Dress Collar Polo — the perfect hybrid of dress shirt style with polo shirt comfort.

Originally a side project launched during the pandemic, Justin’s brand has grown exponentially, boasting over 300 SKUs, a 20,000 sq ft warehouse, and 20+ employees. Featured on Shark Tank, The Wall Street Journal, and Men’s Health, Collars & Co. is more than just apparel — it’s a community dedicated to excellence, integrity, and creativity.

Highlights Include:

• Entrepreneurial Journey: Justin always had a knack for business, growing up in a family where Wall Street Journals replaced Sports Illustrated. After years in tech and software, the discomfort of daily dress shirts in NYC inspired him to create a new kind of apparel.
• The Launch Story: Using a Shopify store, DIY photoshoots, and a TikTok video filmed by his daughter, Justin’s first shirts sold out almost immediately — proof of demand for stylish comfort.
• Customer Experience Focus: Transitioning from B2B to direct-to-consumer, Justin emphasizes constant learning, using data-driven A/B testing to refine online shopping experiences. They prioritize customer support, treating every customer "like a celebrity."
• Key Skills Sharpened:
  • Video editing and social media marketing (vital for brand building),
  • Accounting and financial acumen (essential for growth),
  • Customer service excellence (building a brand voice and culture internally and externally).
• Essential Tools: Shopify and Triple Whale (for e-commerce attribution) are vital to their daily operations.
• Book Recommendations: The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes, highlighting the power of letting data sell for you.
• Customer Perspective: As a shopper himself, Justin values social proof, return policies, and responsive support — factors Collars & Co. strives to excel at.
• Expanding the Line: While Collars & Co. began with menswear, a women’s collection is underway, recognizing the significant demand and opportunity in women's fashion.
• What’s Next: Justin is excited about launching a performance dress shirt line in partnership with Arrow McLaren IndyCar Team, offering high-tech, cool-to-the-touch fabrics for modern professionals.
• Mindset on Challenges: Justin embraces adversity, viewing problems as opportunities to improve — a philosophy that has fueled Collars & Co.’s rapid success.

Find Justin Online:

• Website: www.collarsandco.com
• LinkedIn: Justin Baer
• Instagram/TikTok: @collarsandcoclothing

Closing Thought:
Justin’s story is a reminder that true innovation often comes from solving personal problems — with grit, creativity, and a commitment to excellence. Whether you’re looking for entrepreneurial insights, fashion industry tips, or inspiration to chase your own ideas, this conversation offers invaluable lessons.

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In today’s episode of Navigating the Customer Experience with Eitan Koter. Eitan Koter, Co-founder and Co-CEO of Vimmi, has a rich background in the tech sector, particularly in video commerce, digital marketing, and social commerce. With over two decades of experience, including managing a public company and leading startups, Koter has established himself as a thought leader in the industry. His company, Vimmi, is a video commerce SaaS platform that has been operational for 11 years, focusing on immersive shopping experiences through video.

Eitan's Journey

Koter's career began in the tech sector, specifically in video compression technology. His extensive experience spans various sectors like eCommerce and media. He emphasizes the evolution of video marketing and commerce, noting the significant shift towards immersive experiences that enhance online shopping. Vimmi's unique approach integrates video and augmented reality to create interactive purchasing experiences, moving beyond traditional static product pages.

About Vimmi

Vimmi initially catered to large content providers and enterprises looking to launch video services similar to Netflix. The company serves a B2B2C model, where they provide solutions for enterprises that ultimately serve consumers. Koter highlights the growing trend of live shopping, inspired by practices in China, where brands engage audiences through live streams that incorporate direct purchasing options. This interactive format fosters emotional connections with consumers and enhances brand loyalty.

Recommended Skills and Tools for Video Commerce

Koter advises newcomers to focus on short-form videos (around 30 seconds), starting with a compelling hook rather than a sales pitch. He suggests creating content that addresses customer pain points and building personal connections through storytelling. The structure of these videos should include:

1. Hook: Capture attention with a question or intriguing statement.
2. Connection: Share personal stories or experiences related to the topic.
3. Showcase: Provide visual evidence of success or transformation.
4. Insight: End with a powerful takeaway for viewers.

Koter emphasizes authenticity and consistency in content creation, recommending that brands post regularly to build community engagement.

Importance of Social Commerce

Koter asserts that social commerce is crucial for future brand success. It enables brands to connect directly with consumers through engaging content across multiple platforms. The integration of shoppable videos allows for seamless transactions during live events or short-form content, enhancing the shopping experience.

Conclusion

Eitan Koter's insights into video commerce highlight its transformative potential in eCommerce. By leveraging immersive experiences and social engagement, brands can foster deeper connections with their audiences while driving sales. His expertise serves as a guide for businesses seeking to navigate the evolving landscape of digital marketing and commerce effectively.

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In today's episode of Navigating the Customer Experience with Josh Seiden. Josh’s insights emphasize that customer-centricity is a journey requiring both leadership and employees to adopt new ways of thinking and working. By focusing on customer needs and empowering teams through OKRs, organizations can create greater value and drive meaningful change.

Josh’s Journey
Josh began his career in Silicon Valley during the pre-internet days, working in technology. Fascinated by what makes great products and services, he spent many years as a designer and later a product manager. Today, he helps teams collaborate more effectively, fostering customer-centric approaches to deliver exceptional value to the world.

About Josh’s New Book: Who Does What By How Much? A Practical Guide to Customer-Centric OKRs
Josh’s book is inspired by his passion for integrating a customer-focused perspective into product and service development. He emphasizes that while creating good products is challenging, it’s essential to keep the customer at the core of decision-making. His book introduces OKRs (Objectives and Key Results), a goal-setting framework that helps organizations align their objectives with customer needs.

OKRs prompt teams to define clear objectives—what they want to achieve—and measurable key results based on customer outcomes. For example, the Cleveland Clinic uses OKRs with objectives like "Be the best place in the world to receive healthcare" and key results such as reducing serious safety events. This approach ensures customer-centric thinking while empowering teams to solve problems creatively.

Overcoming Challenges with OKRs
A common pain point in organizations is micromanagement, where leaders dictate tasks rather than allowing teams to leverage their expertise. OKRs address this by shifting leadership’s focus from controlling tasks to setting strategic goals and creating an environment where employees can solve problems independently. This requires mutual trust and encourages employees to think critically about delivering customer value.

However, resistance to change is a hurdle. Employees may feel overwhelmed by new processes. Josh emphasizes the importance of leadership in clearly articulating why OKRs are being adopted, addressing organizational pain points, and explaining how OKRs will benefit both the company and individual employees. This alignment fosters motivation and helps overcome resistance.

Aligning OKRs with Employee Needs
Josh highlights the need to connect OKRs to the employees’ sense of purpose. Everyone within an organization has customers—whether they’re external consumers or internal stakeholders. For example, an HR professional’s customers might be employees seeking benefits or managers hiring talent. By adopting a customer-centric mindset, employees at all levels can see how their roles contribute to organizational success, making them more engaged and motivated.

Key Behaviors for Customer-Centric Organizations
To become truly customer-centric, organizations must:

1. Understand Customers Deeply: Organizations should invest in customer discovery, understanding who their customers are, their motivations, and what challenges they face.
2. Prioritize Value Creation Over Sales: Beyond generating revenue, focus on how customers use products and whether those products are delivering real value.
3. Foster a Problem-Solving Culture: Empower employees to solve problems rather than prescribing solutions.
4. Enhance Communication and Transparency: Ensure alignment and clarity in how OKRs connect to customer and employee goals.

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In this episode, we dive deep into the insights of Laura Richard, a Principal at Level5 Strategy and a leader committed to enhancing customer experiences. With a background in health sciences, Laura transitioned into management consulting, driven by her curiosity and passion for problem-solving. Over her 15-plus-year career, she has worked across various sectors, including public, private, and not-for-profit, focusing on building effective strategies that yield tangible results for her clients.

Laura emphasizes the importance of understanding customer motivations, which she identifies as a mix of rational benefits and emotional responses. She believes that successful businesses must grasp these motivators to craft compelling customer promises and enhance their customer journeys. By identifying critical touchpoints—moments of truth in customer interactions—she helps organizations differentiate themselves and create impactful experiences.

Navigating Customer Experiences

When asked about navigating customer experiences, Laura discusses the necessity of addressing both rational and emotional aspects of customer interactions. She points out that different customer segments require unique approaches, and emphasizes active listening as a universal skill for frontline teams. Demonstrating empathy and understanding is crucial in resolving customer pain points effectively.

The Role of Personalization

Personalization is another key topic. Laura highlights its growing importance in creating customer-centric organizations, where customers feel valued and understood. However, she warns against overextending resources in an attempt to personalize too much, advocating for a balanced approach that aligns with an organization's maturity and capabilities.

Future Trends to Watch

Looking ahead, Laura identifies two critical trends for organizations to focus on in the next 6 to 12 months. First, she stresses the need for businesses to deeply understand customer journeys, pinpointing pain points and identifying suitable solutions before adopting new technologies. Second, she emphasizes the importance of connecting customer experience improvements to business outcomes, urging customer experience professionals to work closely with finance teams to demonstrate the value of their initiatives.

Essential Tools and Resources

When it comes to tools, Laura shares her reliance on TheyDo, a journey mapping and management tool that enables her team to visualize customer interactions and prioritize improvements effectively.

Influential Reads

Laura also reflects on the impact of Simon Sinek’s book, Start with Why, which underscores the significance of purpose in driving engagement and motivation within organizations. This concept has influenced how she advises clients on articulating their core missions.

Current Excitement

Currently, Laura is excited about the repositioning of Level5 Strategy. The firm aims to communicate its focus on creating data-driven strategies that stick, aligning closely with client feedback and needs.

Connecting with Laura

Listeners can connect with Laura on LinkedIn and through the Level5 Strategy website, where they can explore more about their customer experience offerings.

Inspiration During Challenges

To wrap up the episode, Laura shares her mantra during tough times: “Just keep moving forward.” This simple yet powerful reminder encourages incremental progress and continuous value creation.

This conversation with Laura Richard offers valuable insights into enhancing customer experiences, the importance of personalization, and strategies for organizational growth. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of how to drive impactful change in your busin

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In today's digital landscape, the exponential growth of data presents unique challenges and opportunities for organizations. Keith Goode, a leader in human capital management and business intelligence, emphasizes the significance of leveraging data to enhance decision-making around an organization’s most valuable asset: its people. As a member of ZeroedIn Technologies, Keith is dedicated to turning HR and business data into actionable workforce intelligence.

Keith's Journey

With a background in information management systems, Keith combines technical expertise with deep knowledge of HR practices, including benefits, payroll, and core HR functions. His experience allows him to create comprehensive reporting solutions that empower organizations to make informed decisions using historical data.

About ZeroedIn Technologies

Founded by a visionary who Keith has collaborated with since the early 90s, ZeroedIn aims to address the issue of siloed HR solutions. These systems often offer a wealth of data but lack the insights needed for effective workforce management. ZeroedIn integrates data from various HR functions—such as learning, benefits, and payroll—into a unified platform that provides a single point of truth regarding employee interactions and performance.

Success Stories

Keith highlights several success stories from his work with clients. For instance, in organizations with outdoor workers, ZeroedIn correlated core HR information with weather data. This analysis helped clients understand how environmental factors affected performance and efficiency.

In the retail sector, ZeroedIn assisted clients in correlating employee performance data with sales figures. This integration enabled store managers to identify top performers and allocate coaching resources effectively, thereby enhancing overall sales output.

Trends for 2025: Merging Human and Data Intelligence

As organizations move toward 2025, Keith identifies two key trends: collective listening and the adoption of artificial intelligence (AI). Collective listening involves combining quantitative data from various systems with qualitative insights gathered from employee surveys and communications. This approach provides a comprehensive view of organizational health.

In the realm of AI, Keith discusses the potential of machine learning and large language models. These technologies can analyze historical data, generate predictions, and even interpret complex datasets in user-friendly formats. For example, managers can leverage AI to gain insights from dashboards, enabling them to understand trends and identify actionable strategies without needing advanced technical skills.

The Role of Critical Thinking

A key question arises: as AI becomes more integrated into decision-making, will critical thinking diminish? Keith addresses this concern by encouraging a balanced approach. He believes AI should enhance human capabilities rather than replace them. By using AI-generated insights as a starting point, professionals can apply their expertise and intuition to delve deeper into the data, ultimately leading to more informed and innovative decisions.

Conclusion

Keith Goode’s insights reveal the immense potential of data in transforming HR practices. Through platforms like ZeroedIn, organizations can harness their data to make better, faster decisions that positively impact their workforce. As technology evolves, the fusion of human insight and data intelligence will be crucial in navigating the future of work.

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In this solo episode of "Navigating the Customer Experience," host Yanique Grant reflects on her podcasting journey and offers encouragement to those considering starting their own. With 245 episodes under her belt and a recent transition to video podcasting, Yanique shares insights on overcoming fears and embracing new challenges.

Yanique begins by discussing her mission through her company, Professional Training & Occupational Services, which aims to create a more caring world. Inspired by the cartoon "Care Bears," she emphasizes that customer experience is a vital part of life and encourages listeners to view their interactions as opportunities to serve others.

As she dives into her podcasting experience, Yanique reveals her initial apprehensions about switching to video format. However, through research and conversations with fellow podcasters, she has begun to embrace this new medium, finding it a rewarding way to connect and share knowledge.

She believes that customer experience is not just a professional focus but a lifestyle that requires commitment and passion. Yanique encourages those feeling timid about starting a podcast or business to take action, reminding them that success comes from trying, even in the face of fear and anxiety. She acknowledges that even successful individuals face challenges, but overcoming these obstacles can lead to personal growth.

Yanique also emphasizes the importance of sharing knowledge and skills. With numerous platforms available today, everyone has the opportunity to showcase their unique talents—whether it’s baking, crafting, or any other skill. She reassures listeners that they possess unique value that cannot be replicated, and encourages them to embrace their individuality.

Continuing her message of empowerment, Yanique highlights the vast resources available online for learning and growth. She believes that anyone can learn new skills with a little effort and encourages listeners to leverage online platforms to their advantage.

In closing, Yanique expresses her gratitude for the support of her audience, inviting them to share feedback and suggestions for future episodes. She hopes that listeners find the same passion in their pursuits as she does in teaching customer service. By surrounding themselves with positive influences and focusing on their goals, Yanique believes that anyone can achieve their dreams.

Tune in to this inspiring episode for valuable insights on embracing your journey, whether in podcasting, business, or personal growth!

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Andrew Carothers is a Senior Customer Experience Leader and a CCXP who has significantly shaped the field of customer experience (CX). His career began in public relations, where he worked both in agencies and in-house. He transitioned into the technology sector at Autodesk and even worked for the Electric Vehicle Association of America before the concept of electric vehicles became popular.

Over the years, Andrew expanded his expertise beyond public relations into various marketing communications roles. His pivotal move came when he joined Cisco Systems, where he transitioned from marketing to the newly established customer experience function. At that time, Cisco primarily sold hardware with long sales cycles and minimal customer interaction. However, the company's shift towards a recurring revenue model and the rise of software as a service (SaaS) transformed customer engagement.

As part of a small team at Cisco tasked with redefining customer interactions, Andrew gained extensive experience in digital CX, voice of the customer initiatives, and journey mapping. This journey laid the foundation for his later successes in customer experience, where he has won multiple international awards and contributed to thought leadership in the field.

Evolving Customer Expectations

Andrew identifies two major trends currently shaping customer expectations:

1. Consistency Across Experiences: Customers now expect seamless and consistent interactions across all channels. This shift has been heavily influenced by leading companies like Amazon and Apple, which have set high standards for user experience. The ease of searching for, purchasing, and returning products has raised customer expectations across all industries, including B2B environments.
2. Digital-First Interactions: The demand for digital experiences has surged, particularly accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Customers now expect to engage with companies through digital channels first, regardless of their size. This expectation includes easy access to information and services, marking a significant change in customer interaction dynamics.

The Importance of Self-Service

Research indicates that up to 80% of customers seek information independently before contacting a company. This trend highlights the necessity for robust self-service options. Companies should invest in knowledge bases that feature diverse content formats—text, video, infographics—to cater to different customer learning preferences. By enabling customers to resolve issues on their own, organizations can enhance overall satisfaction and engagement.

Harnessing Data for Enhanced CX

As Andrew looks ahead to 2025, he emphasizes the critical role of data in shaping customer experience strategies. He advocates for organizations, regardless of size, to consolidate data from various sources to create a holistic view of customer interactions. Understanding customer needs through predictive analytics will be essential for delivering personalized and effective experiences.

In conclusion, Andrew Carothers’ journey reflects the evolution of customer experience driven by changing expectations, the rise of digital engagement, and the strategic importance of data. His insights and experiences position him as a leader in the field, guiding organizations toward more customer-centric practices and enhanced satisfaction.

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In this episode of Navigating the Customer Experience, host Yanique Grant interviews Rusty Rueff, a seasoned leader with a diverse career in entertainment, talent management, and philanthropy. Rusty shares insights from his journey, which includes significant roles at PepsiCo and Electronic Arts (EA), where he was instrumental in global human resources and talent management.

Rusty discusses the core concepts from his latest book, The Faith Code, emphasizing the importance of building a life platform based on enduring values and relationships rather than transient interests. He highlights the need for balance among mind, body, and spirit to achieve personal fulfillment and professional success.

The conversation also explores the relationship between personal wellness and delivering exceptional customer experiences, with both Rusty and Yanique stressing the significance of self-care. Rusty shares his mantra: "Fearlessly be yourself," underscoring authenticity as a key element of effective leadership.

Additionally, Rusty addresses the impact of technology on society and encourages embracing innovations like generative AI to enhance productivity. He expresses excitement about future projects, including recording an audiobook version of The Faith Code and engaging in new ventures that foster meaningful connections among people.

This episode is rich with practical advice and reflections on navigating life with purpose and intention, making it a valuable listen for anyone looking to improve their customer experience skills or integrate holistic wellness into their daily routine.

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Marybeth Alexander has been the Knowledge Goddess and Chief Executive Owl at KnowledgeOwl since she co-founded the company with Pete in 2015. As KnowledgeOwl’s CEO, she's responsible for embodying KnowledgeOwl's mission and values, which include using business as a force for good, cultivating a people-first company, giving excellent service to everyone, and creating awesome knowledge based software.

Questions

· We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey. So, if you could share with our listeners just a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you share with our audience what exactly is KnowledgeOwl, and what do you do on a daily basis?

· What are some of the successes that you've experienced as a CEO of an organization of this nature, and if you were to predict where you see customers experience going in another 3 to 5 years, based on where the technology is currently, what are some of your predictions where that's concerned?

· Now, Marybeth, can you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that had a great impact on you, and it could be an impact that affected you personally or professionally.

· Now, can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share with us a quote. So, do you have a quote that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Marybeth’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey. So, if you could share with our listeners just a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Marybeth shared that she'll try to do the short version of this. So, she just loves helping people. All of her jobs are her favorite, her favorite jobs have always revolved around people. She loved being a camp counselor, she was a teacher. She also really loved working in hospitality. She loved working at restaurants and bartending and serving folks. And then she transitioned into software support, and she loved helping people there too.

So, she got into software. She was a teacher for a while, and then she transitioned into software, which was actually a pretty good transition, because a lot of the same skills that make you a good teacher for kids also makes you good at doing software support for adults.

So, she grew her leadership in that realm, and she went from being on the support team to being a team lead, to a manager, to a director, and then she got this little opportunity to head up a product, which was a knowledge based product, it was called Help Gizmo at the time.

And she took that opportunity. I was basically like the product owner or manager of that product, and they brought it to market, and then that company didn't want to continue that project, so they ended up giving them the opportunity to buy it, and that is how she accidentally ended up as the CEO of a software company.

She likes to call herself an accidental entrepreneur, because she didn't start out that way, but as luck would have it, she got the opportunity, and now it's been almost 10 years.

What is KnowledgeOwl?

Me: Now, Marybeth, could you share with our audience what exactly is KnowledgeOwl, and what do you do on a daily basis?

Marybeth shared that KnowledgeOwl, they call it knowledge based software, but it was essentially, what knowledge based software is, is a specific type of software that allows you to create a website to share information with whoever your audience is, that is often times your customers.

So, a lot of people use them for their help center and documentation for their software products, but they also sometimes use it for their products for their customers, they have airlines who use them for their help and FAQs, for their customers on their website.

They have customer service teams that use them as a knowledge base for their call center agents. They have lots of companies that use them as their internal knowledge base for all of their playbooks and policies and procedures. So, pretty much what they do every day is help people with these knowledge based websites that help them help their customers, whoever they might be.

Me: I think knowledge base is an extremely good thing for customers, because I do find if a customer has an issue, they tend to do their own troubleshooting first before they actually pick up the phone and call a company or even reach out to a representative at a company. So, if you have a strong knowledge base, you're actually empowering the customer to fix the problem themselves.

Marybeth agreed totally yes, most people do not want to contact your support team, there are a small percentages of people that do, but most people want to be able to self-serve. And when we're talking about giving your customers a great experience and giving them great customer service, a big part of that is allowing them to get help the way they want to get help, and most people would prefer to do it themselves.

Me: So, walk me through, let's choose an industry, let's say, for example, an automotive industry. You sell motor vehicles, for example, and you are trying to create a knowledge base for your team members, so this would be internal with let's say product knowledge, or just general information that customers may call and ask about frequently. Is it that they have to document the information and then give it to you, and you feed it into the knowledge based software, or is that something that you provide for them as well, the research and the documentation that is fed into the knowledge based software?

Marybeth shared that they basically provide the software tool for them. So, their customers like, let's say this automotive, this car service company or automotive company, they would purchase KnowledgeOwl and then somebody on their team would be the one that would put all the content in. So, often times this could be a manager of a team, sometimes you have somebody whose job it is to do like documentation or training, but often times it is like the support team itself, like the people doing the work, they will go in there and document the answers to questions, because on many support teams, you know what team leads end up doing, or like the advanced folks on the team that have been there for a while, is they end up being the go to person and having to answer the same questions over and over again for the other teammates.

So, rather than just answering those same questions over and over again, those people will go to the knowledge based software create a document that says, here's information about this automotive vehicle, here's information like a frequent process that we use. And here's how to do this for the customer, and they'll write it down, so that way their teammates can then reference that or look for it in the knowledge base and get the answer without having to ask them.

So, it speeds up the process and the not just internally, but also it helps the customers get answers faster, because the teammates can find the information they need to help the customers faster.

Me: And your knowledge based software facilitates different formats, so, for example, it could be an audio file, it could be a video file, it could be just a document that the customer is reading.

Marybeth stated exactly. So, it's basically a website. She likes to tell people, pretty much anything you can put in a website, you can put it inside KnowledgeOwl.

So, a lot of times it's going to be text. So, a lot of times it's processes, it's procedures, it's information. But in terms of training in like a video format, you could have audio files in there. You could even like host files. So, if you need to have, like a PDF document or a forum that you need to print and give to a customer, you can store those in the knowledge base as well to make it easy for people to find, print, download it and use that information.

So, essentially, a knowledge base can become sort of the single source of truth for your team. So, rather than having to remember where this forum lives, or where that procedure lives, or where the information about like that car lives, it's all in the same place, so that people can search one place and go to one place to find all of the information they need to do their jobs.

Me: And if the organization already has their own website, Mary Beth, is it that knowledge base has some form of feature that integrates into what they have already, so you live on their server that exists? Or do they have to host their website now through your website?

Marybeth shared that it's not their whole website. So, a knowledge base is typically a separate website. So, you might have your website, which is like www.likemyamazingcompany.com and then you might have your knowledge base for your customers, and that might be on help.myamazingcompany.com or support.myamazingcompany.com so it's actually a separate website that people can go to that is either public or it could be behind a login, because sometimes you only want your logged in customers to access it, or especially if it's an internal knowledge base, you probably only want your employees accessing all of your internal company information.

So, it's often times a separate website. But there are ways you can integrate the knowledge base into your main website if you want to. They have an embeddable help widget, some people go a little bit more advanced with that, but generally it's a separate, standalone website that complements the information on your regular website.

Predictions for Customer Experience in the Next 3 to 5 Years

Me: Now, since you've been in this operation for about 10 years you mentioned earlier, what are some of the successes that you've experienced as a CEO of an organization of this nature, and if you were to predict where you see customers experience going in another 3 to 5 years, based on where the technology is currently, what are some of your predictions where that's concerned?

Marybeth shared that in terms of successes, her successes are all going to be people based because I think, like you, she was looking at Yanique’s website, it's for her, it's all about the people, and giving people a great experience and making sure that not only, like their customers are having a great experience and love working with them and love using their software, but also that the people that work with them, like their staff members are having a great experience working for KnowledgeOwl too and their vendors who are having a great experience working with them as a company.

So, for her, like the biggest success has been building a community of not just customers, but staff members and team members and other vendors and organizations, a really supportive community that cares about each other. But in terms of looking forward in the industry, it's a very interesting time; especially with the word that is on everybody's mind right now is AI.

So, everyone is talking about chatbots, right? So, everybody wants to talk about how they can make a ChatGPT for their company and their customers, and they can automate more of your customer service and their customer experience.

But for them and who knows what it’s going to look like in 3 to 5 years, because the landscape is changing so fast. But what she does strongly feel like is having your company knowledge documented, like having your product, your services, everything in a knowledge base is now more important than ever, because especially with AI, the only way that AI learns is by getting trained.

And one of the best ways to train your AI is to have all of your policies, your procedures, your documentation about your company, your product and your services and your processes written down so that the AI can learn.

So, she thinks what we're going to see over the next 3 to 5 years is even more formal focus on creating and maintaining great documentation, which for many companies, that's always been really important.

So, like most business books you're going to read at the end of the day, the magic secret to like growing your business is to document everything right and to document all your policies and procedures and processes so that you can scale your company, and other people can do what you do.

And that's always sort of been the not very sexy, but honest truth about what great companies look like as they have their policies and procedures and everything well documented. But she thinks what we're going to start to see is that not only are people going to be creating like great documentation for customers and creating great documentation for their teams internally, but they're going to be creating documentation for AI tools as well.

Me: I think that's a very good point that you just brought across the fact that the knowledge base can train the AI, because a lot of times I find that even with chatbots that are attached to organizations, you may start the conversation to resolve an issue, but the bot can answer maybe just the very basic question. And so, a lot of times when I talk to people, they mention that they don't even entertain the bot because they know that they're not going to get the answer they're looking for so they automatically tell the bot they'd like to speak with a live representative, or an agent for the conversation to end with the bot and actually be talking to a live human being in the chat. But maybe that could mitigate the intervention of live agents or representatives if it is that the bot is, as you mentioned, trained fully by the policies that have been documented and simple questions that maybe is embedded in your website, or maybe the customer is not able to quickly identify, the bot can say, “Okay, this is the policy or this is the rate for this,” or whatever the information is as it relates to the organization, again, minimizing the customer having to reach out to someone and speak to them in person or live.

Marybeth agreed and shared that she thinks what's going to be the sort of people of this is we're going to get to a point, probably here in the next 3 to 5 to 10 years, where you might have trouble telling whether you're talking to a real human or a bot. So, think about like the chats on website. So, a lot of bots, you can tell they're a bot because they tell you that they're a bot and it's very simplistic, but the more conversational bots, like, if you've had a chat with ChatGPT, like it's conversational, it can go back and forth with you, you can have an ongoing conversation that builds upon what you were previously talking about.

So, she thinks there is going to be a lot, and it's already starting. There are a lot of AI customer enablement tools, customer service enablement tools that they've been testing, and they've seen other companies using that learn from your knowledge base and your past emails and conversations, what your tone is, how you usually respond, what the correct answer is most likely to be. And there are these tools out there that right now, if they're confident, they can actually reply as an agent would, versus having the agent actually do it. And there's a lot of companies that are very nervous about that with good measure, because we don't want people giving out bad information.

But the agents are suddenly becoming, they're just double checking before the bot sends their answer, but the bots actually writing everything and creating the response and then having that engagement. So, she thinks we might get to a point where sometimes it might be hard to tell whether it's a real person or not.

App, Website or Tool that Marybeth Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Marybeth mentioned if it’s cheating to say KnowledgeOwl?

KnowledgeOwl is interesting because that is where they document not just everything about their products. They have their customer facing knowledge base, which they use to understand how their product works and their customers do as well. But they have all of their internal company documentation in KnowledgeOwl as well. But as a team, they're a remote team, so they're 100% remote, they’re distribute everywhere.

So, their team relies a lot on Slack to connect with each other and have like an online space where they all can all exist and not just talk about work but talk about life and interact with everybody. And it's that necessarily that Slack is that important, because if Slack wasn't there, they'd probably be using Microsoft Teams or some other tool to do that collaboration. But having collaborative, like a space for your team to collaborate together and help each other out and just sort of be together and care for each other as humans is really important, especially we move into an age where there's like less in person interactions and support teams and customer services teams are often going to be distributed. She thinks having that space is really important.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Marybeth

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Marybeth shared that she’s actually going to give you three. So, yes, she’s got three for you. So, number one, it was Zingerman's Guide to Giving Great Service, and she probably first read this about 15 years ago, someone gave it to her, and she said, “What does this have to do? I'm running a software company support team. This is a food service book.” And she read it, and it was the first time that she actually saw someone be able to define the steps to actually giving great service and the steps to actually handle a complaint. And it might have seemed really simple at first, but she has been using the same framework for about 15 years now, and it really works. So, it was the first time she was able to take something that was very conceptional, like great service, and actually give someone a process to follow. So that's number one, is Zingerman's Guide to Great Service.

A compliment to that is Zingerman's Guide to Good Leading, it's a series of books. There's one on building a great business, there's one on being a better leader, there's one on managing ourselves, and another one's about the power of beliefs in business. And these books and series of books have really influenced her whole philosophy about the type of company she wants to build, about the types of teams she wants to build and how she wants to treat people. So, those have been really important to me.

And then her third one, which is more for the business owners or the team leaders on here, but it is Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell, it came out last year or the year before, but it has been life changing for her, and sort of organizing her life and figuring out how to grow herself as a leader.

What Marybeth is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about, Marybeth shared that she thought about this one a little bit, and this might sound a little bit wild, so she’s like a customer service person at heart. Like, support is her jam, she loves customer service, but what she’s really excited about right now is sales and marketing. The reason she’s very excited about sales and marketing is because she’s done a complete 180. When she first started KnowledgeOwl, she thought sales and marketing were bad words, she thought they were icky. They did not have anybody doing sales and marketing, a dedicated team, and they grew their company to this point without really focusing on sales and marketing, because they thought it was something sort of gross, like, she’s a support person, she likes helping people, and she sort of see sales and marketing, or she used think about sales and marketing as sort of this other thing that businesses had to do, but it was sort of gross.

And what she’s realized recently is that sales and marketing can be done good, or it can be done poorly like many things, it's just a tool, and if we think about it through the lens of customer experience and customer service, and how do we add more value for our customers, and how do we give them a better experience in the world?

And how do we do more good, then sales and marketing become a really interesting skill to learn and problem to figure out, because she thinks they can do it in a way that is true to their values. And it's very people centered and is very helpful and is very centered in service. And it's a totally new area for her. So, she’s getting to learn, she’s getting to apply all of her learnings and feelings about customer service and experiences to the realms of sales and marketing, and she’s really excited to figure it all out with her team.

Where can listeners find Marybeth online?

LinkedIn - Marybeth Alexander

LinkedIn – KnowledgeOwl

Website – www.knowledgeowl.com

Email – marybeth@knowledgeowl.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Marybeth Uses

When asked about a quote that she tends to revert to, Marybeth shared that she has many of those. She loves a good mantra. And she thinks her favorite one that she keeps returning to, and she writes it down a lot is….Enjoy yourself.

And to her, it's a quote from a song that she really likes. But in times of adversity, when things seem to her not going well, when she feels like she’s unmoored or a little bit lost, remembering that life is short and that it's shorter than we think, and to remember to enjoy ourselves, and it brings her back to her why. It brings her back to her purpose, and it really helps her to refocus things. So, it brings her back to that positive frame of mind. So, enjoy yourself.

Me: So, Marybeth, just want to extend our gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and jumping on our podcast with us today. Conversation was amazing, just learning about Knowledge Owl, and just learning about the impact of a knowledge base and the future of customer experience as it relates to integrating the knowledge base into our different platforms and allowing the customer to be able to self-serve and resolve their issues that much quicker and get information at the tip of their fingers. So, I think it was really insightful, I hope that my listeners gained as much insight from it as I did. I thought it was wonderful, and I just want to thank you so much for sharing with us today.

Please connect with us on X @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Zingerman’s Guide to Giving Great Service by Ari Weinzweig

• Zingerman’s Guide to Good Leading, Part 1: A Lasped Anarchist’s Approach to Building a Business by Ari Weinzweig

• Buy Back Your Time: Get Unstruck, Reclaim Your Freedom, and Build Your Empire by Dan Martell

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

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Bob Carrothers has 29 years of experience, he facilitates peer-to-peer boards of CEOs and executives, creating environments conducive to skill enhancement, informed decision-making and superior results. Bob is certified as an Emergenetics advisor and Predictive Index practitioner, equipping him with a profound understanding of human behaviour and cognition.

Questions

· So, we always like to ask our guests, in your own words, could you share a little bit about your journey? How you got from where you were to where you are today?

· What would you say maybe if you could pick three overarching tenets or competencies that you believe CEOs need to practice or embrace in order to really achieve the three areas that just mentioned.

· What are some of the key things that make an organization successful?

· Now, Bob, can you also share with our audience, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Now, can you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you, whether it be personally or professionally.

· Bob, can you share with our audience what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Bob, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Bob’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to ask our guests, in your own words, could you share a little bit about your journey? How you got from where you were to where you are today?

Bob shared that it's been a very interesting journey. He started out as an entrepreneur; he had companies involved in the meat trading business. So, they bought and sold animal parts, lungs, livers, kidneys, everything that was most people would consider waste from an animal, and then they would resell them to people we knew wanted them, mostly to pet food companies, that's where the tonnage went. And then others to went to Mexico. Others went into sausage making, Chorizo making on the West Coast. They just find a buyer and go do it. And they'd go into a packing house and buy their entire production of lungs or livers or whatever, and then resell it into the pet food canning business. So, it's been an interesting ride.

In 1996 he got out of that business. He sold it to his management team, and they took it over, and they're still running it. And then after that, he started another company that failed miserably. He lost a ton of money. He was crushed, and it was hard and then he looked around, and he'd been a Vistage member, and he loved it. And he knew that with all the ups and downs he’s had in his life, he could help people from making mistakes and doing what he did and living that life. So, he reached out to his past business chair, and he hired him, and that was in 1996, so he’s been doing this ever since, September of 1996, so it's been quite a ride.

Overarching Tenets or Competencies CEO’s Need to Embrace to Unlock Their Potential, Enhance Performance and Achieve Their Goals

Me: Now, you focus on empowering CEOs to unlock their full potential, enhance their performance and achieve their goals. Based on your many years of experience, Bob in this space, working, I'm sure with CEOs and entrepreneurs across different industries, what would you say maybe if you could pick three overarching tenets or competencies that you believe CEOs need to practice or embrace in order to really achieve the three areas that I just mentioned.

Bob shared that he thinks they need to establish a great culture in their company and mind it. Nurture it and protect it, because culture trumps everything, nothing else matters. Your people won't be happy, you won't keep people, you will make your customers angry, your suppliers angry, and you'll do a really bad job because your employees won't care. And so, that's the first thing he would say, is build a strong culture.

The second thing is to hire correctly, be slow to hire and fast to make them available to industry. So, that's really important. If the employee can't do the job they were hired to do, they need to move on and then hire the right people. Put a lot of effort in your hiring process.

And the other one would be, watch the money. You've got to keep track of your cash flow, you got to predict what the cash is going to be down the road. Bigger companies have CFOs to do that, and then they'll report to the CEO. Smaller ones, often the CEO will do it themselves. But you have to do it, because if you run out of cash, you're out of business. It's just really simple, if you can't make payroll, then you're gone.

Key Things for an Organization Success

Me: So, Bob, in working with these different organizations, right? We're trying to establish what are some of the key things that make an organization successful? And so, the customer experience is critical in all businesses regardless of whether or not you have a face-to-face type of interaction or you're just digital and people are communicating with you solely through the internet. But leadership is very important for a business, whether you're a solopreneur or you're a fortune 500 company, regardless of the size, it's driven by the leader in the organization. As it relates to customer experience, if you were to maybe give us an example of a use case, a good use case, example that you've observed over the years in working with these CEOs, what do you think are some of the key things that make them be able to have a successful customer experience, one in which their customers are their brand advocates, their evangelists, their word of mouth advertisers. If that company decided not to advertise for the next two, three years, they would still be doing great business because their customers view them as fans. What would you say are key things in that?

Bob shared that there's one company that comes to mind, and that CEO was brilliant, and the culture in the company was extremely strong. He would walk around his plant every day, and he knew everybody's name and met family members, and he'd walk up to him and just say, “Hey, Charlie, how you doing? How's the family? How's your wife? I heard your son Robbie is sick.” He would do that, and the employees felt that they were cared for.

He never stopped setting goals, he never stopped doing things that would make the work fun. He was trying to reduce shrinkage one day, and it kept bugging him, it was going on for months, and he decided he'd just do a little contest, and he went out and bought an old junker car and a whole bunch of sledgehammers, and every day the group, the employees reduced the amount of shrinkage, they could go out and beat up on the car. And it was just amazing how much fun they were having and how just beating a car, they hit their goal for sure, and it cost the CEO, like, what $500 to do that.

He had other contests like dunk the CFO, where he had one of those dunking tubs. Certain goals were reached, that was out in the parking lot. He saw him with his customers. One of their Vistage speakers impacted him so much that he invited his customers from around the country to come to his plant, see the plant, and hear this speaker present, and because it made such an impact on him, he wanted his customers to be better too, so he thought this speaker could really help him.

What else did he do? Whenever he'd walk up to somebody and they promised to do something for him, he recorded it on his phone, so he'd pull it out and before he saw them, pull up their name and say, “Hey, how are you coming on that project we talked about?” And the accountability went through the roof. Just little things like that, simple things. But he had one goal, that if the company reached so much in revenue sales, he knew that if it did, they'd make extra money, if it was over and above the regular goal, it was big….hairy….audacious goal, and he said, “If you guys hit this, I will take the entire company to Las Vegas.” Because he knew if they increased the revenue that much, the profits would go up enough to pay for the trip and then some. And he was legendary with his employees. Just things like that that are special.

Me: I think one of the things I took away from what you said just now that it's not the big things, it's like always the little things, the minor details, and they go very far away with another human being, because it shows them that you value them, you appreciate them, and they're just not there to milk, to get more money, money, money. But you value them as a person, and you recognize the fact that your success is just as important as their success.

Bob agreed, that's exactly right. That's what it takes to build a great company, is the culture you create. You want people waiting in line to go to work for you.

Me: I know right, that's awesome.

App, Website or Tool that Bob Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without, Bob shared that he hates it, but he can't live without it, it's called email. Buries him, but it's the communication is so fast, and we can send documents back and forth, and he doesn't think anybody could live without email now. We all curse it, but it's there.

Me: Agreed, because in the absence of email, we have to go back to posting a letter to your customer or to your friend or family member, and we all know the Postal Service takes forever for you to get that response. So, yeah, email is amazing.

Bob shared that he remembers those days and they'd send off a contract and wait and wait and wait to get it back, just because of the mail, or an invoice. It just was crazy. And then came fax machines, and they were huge. He bought one once and his accountant, and said, “Why do you want that thing? Nobody else has them.” And he said they will, even though they will. And that became huge, and then email took over for that.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Bob

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Bob shared that Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t was a book that had an effect on him. Blue Ocean Strategy: How to Create Uncontested Market Space and Make Competition Irrelevant is another one. Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Me: I'm actually looking at the book right now. It's sitting right in front of me.

Bob shared that that's one of the major ones. And another one he wrote was How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. So, there's several.

What Bob is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Bob shared that he’s always excited about cheering, he sees so much, and he loves what he does. As far as he’s not in any training right now, but Vistage offers trainings all the time, and he also does stuff outside of Vistage. But right now, he’s getting ready to go on a holiday in a sprinter van, it's an RV, and that's kind of got his attention. Plus, he’s got two Vistage meetings next week.

Me: So, those are your things that you're working on that you're really excited about. Fantastic.

Where can listeners find Bob online?

LinkedIn - Bob Carrothers

Website – www.vistage.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Bob Uses

When asked about quotes that he tends to revert to, Bob shared he does, he’s a big fan of Albert Einstein, and he had a quote that was, “The same level of thinking that caused a problem is not going to fix the problem.” That's not exact, but that's what it means. And that's so true. Another one is, “Everybody’s a genius. But if you want to teach a fish to fly, they're going to fail and feel they're a loser from then on.” And some people just can't get it. And sometimes when things go wrong, you got to look at the people involved, or the thinking involved and reapproach it with a different level.

Me: Okay, so that second quote is more to say, maybe you need to take a few steps backward just to move forward, just to reevaluate and do it again.

Bob agreed. Reevaluate if it's an employee and they just can't get it. Maybe they're just not set up for it, and it's better to find another position for them, or another area of responsibility, or perhaps they're just not right for your company, like you got to have the right people on the bus as Jim Collins say.

Me: True. If you have the wrong people on the bus, it makes the journey that much harder.

Bob agreed, they got to be in the right seats.

Me: Well, thank you so much Bob for jumping on our podcast today and sharing all of these awesome insights as it relates to Vistage and your journey and just what are some of the key things that makes a leader successful and makes an organization successful as they navigate their customer experience through the journey of their customers lifetime. So, I think your conversation today was extremely insightful, and I just wanted to extend our deepest gratitude to you for taking time to share with us today.

Bob shared that he’s really enjoyed this. Yanique ask great questions and make him think so, thank you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins

• Blue Ocean Strategy: How to Create Uncontested Market Space and Make Competition Irrelevant by W. Chan Kim

• How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie

• How to Stop Worrying and Start Living by Dale Carnegie

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

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Barbara Wardell and Ernesto Cullari run an agency that focuses on geofencing. This embraces a growth hacker mindset that strategically focuses on identifying and amplifying their clients’ strengths while pinpointing weaknesses in the competition, utilizing GPS location data. This approach results in a significant and measurable impact on foot traffic and online engagement, making their efforts truly game changing and successful.

Questions

· Now, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journeys, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Can you share with our listeners in the most simplest layman terms, what exactly is geofencing?

· Organizations heavily invest in marketing, but then when the person comes to the organization to do business, case in point, let's say you visited Starbucks, and you had to wait for 20 minutes just to get a cup of coffee. You're extremely frustrated, because it's just a small item, you should be in and out in the shortest possible time. How do you tackle that with your clients? Is that something that you deal with as well?

· Do you find that the behavior based on the geographic location or even the culture of the country, impacts how geofencing works?

· Now we'd also like to hear from both of you, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with me maybe one or two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, whether personally or professionally.

· Now, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your lives right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, we always like to wrap our episodes up by asking our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Barbara and Ernesto’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journeys, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Barbara Wardell: Barbara shared that she and Ernesto met during Covid at a Halloween party, believe it or not, before they started their company together, they became friends. And her journey is she’s a mom of two, and she was in the medical industry, specialty medicines for a long time, and then Covid hit, and then she and Ernesto met at a Halloween party, became friends, and then they started Cullari & Wardell, a geofencing ad agency, and a little over two years, they've been killing it, so growing small businesses. So, they're really lucky to do that.

Ernesto Cullari: Ernesto stated that as Barbara said, they met during Covid, they both have a medical background. For years, he was a Surgical OR Med Rep, so he would be working in the operating room with physicians utilizing novel technology to do abdominal body wall repair, post breast reconstruction after cancer and things like that. During the day, he moonlit as a professional songwriter, so he had songs on Disney radio, country radio, that he wrote for other artists.

And along that journey, he became a songwriter. So, the mystery during his creative time was always wondering how to sort of growth hack, how to break an artist out into the mainstream. And they had a lot of success doing that. Paulie Litt from the show Hope & Faith, ended up having a number one song on Disney radio, which they wrote for him, and then had a top 100 song, and then top 15 country music song that he wrote for an artist named Bailey Grey.

And so, it does lead them up to Covid, because when Covid struck, part of their content, so he got more into advertising and marketing, and a lot of their clients just dropped off. And the problem that needed to be solved was how do you rebuild foot traffic, particularly in a market where the government won't let you open, when they do let you open, people are going to be slow to come back to retail.

So, what do we do?

So, putting that growth hacker hat back on to when he was a songwriter, he looked into geofencing, and that was about 4 years ago, and then 2 years into his journey of mastering, doing his 10,000 hours of studying geofencing technology, he and Barbara met, and it became a passion of theirs, and throughout their conversation, to help small businesses, to help them bring people back in.

People like the retail experience, people like the in-person experience, and geofencing is a powerful tool that uses satellite technology to draw virtual fences around locations of interest. It could be your competitors, and they use that to capture their devices to send ads to their devices when they come into one of their locations after seeing one of your ads, the satellite pings them and alerts them that a new GPS verified visit has taken place. And he and Barbara do about 5000 satellite verified visits in the US, Canada and Australia every month.

What is Geofencing?

Me: Now, for those of our listeners that are tapping into this episode when it's broadcasted and they're getting a chance to listen into this awesome content, can you share with them in the most simplest layman terms, what exactly is geofencing?

Ernesto Cullari: stated that in the simplest terms, it is a form of advertising that uses your phone and when you walk into a location that they've identified with a satellite, he’s drinking a cup of coffee at a coffee shop that he bought it at. And then in his surrounding areas, there's about 7 other coffee shops. Well, if he wants to show why he’s better, he would use geofencing to draw a virtual fence around his competition. Once someone walks into a competing coffee shop with their mobile device, he can then capture their device and then send ads to their device. And the wonderful part is, is when after seeing his ad, come back to his coffee shop, he could say, “Wow, because of my ads, because I used geofencing to target their devices in my competition stores, I've therefore just measured 50 visits this month.”

So, it's critical because none of us are made of money, and advertising dollars for the small business is scarce, so we want to use our money wisely. And big companies like Chipotle, Chipotle, by the way, the CEO of Chipotle just got hired at Starbucks.

Me: I saw that yesterday.

Chipotle during Covid, utilized, he thinks it was one of their vice presidents came up with this idea, “Hey, let's use geofencing. I heard it works.” Well, during Covid, Chipotle was able to triple their curb side pickup from using geofencing. They saw where other people were picking up food, and then they decided to target those locations and let them know that, “Hey, Chipotle has curb side pickup.”

So, Chipotle did so well that Starbucks needs to learn from them. As you know, a lot of Starbucks locations have been closing throughout the country, and they picked off talent from Chipotle, and he has no doubt that that talented team is going to be helping Starbucks turn around, but geofencing is part of that story.

Me: So, now our listeners have a good idea of what geofencing is and also what your organization does.

How Does Using GeoFencing as a Marketing/Advertising Tool Affect CX?

Me: Now let's tie all of that back into the customer experience, right? Because we're all about navigating the customer's experience. So, you have marketed and advertised to the organizations to say, hey, you can come to this organization based on the geofencing marketing initiatives that you've put in place. Now, can you share with me how it is that the customer experience is addressed in this for example, like with your clients, because I find, for example, people spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising, not sure what the cost point is for geofencing compared to traditional media like the radio or newspaper, if it's significantly cheaper. But I find that a lot of times, organizations heavily invest in marketing, but then when the person comes to the organization to do business, case in point, let's say you visited Starbucks, and you had to wait for 20 minutes just to get a cup of coffee. You're extremely frustrated, because it's just a small item, you should be in and out in the shortest possible time. How do you tackle that with your clients? Is that something that you deal with as well?

Barbara Wardell: shared that for their end, it's the advertising end, they don't deal with the customers per se. The places that people go with their smartphones is indicative highly of the products that they buy. So, when they go into a geofence, what they see is they're open on an app, because they're on apps or on the wide-open web, they’re not on Facebook, Instagram, Google. So, when they actually go into that geofence and they're on an app, they will see an ad for one of their customers, and from that, if they toggle it or click it, they will see a map how to get there. Once they go into that store, whether it's that day or 90 days later, the satellite will ping them. So, that part is their end. What they go into the store is on the customer itself of how they treat their customer. And Ernesto has some insight on that as well.

Ernesto Cullari: shared that when they do a consultation with a client, one of the first things they ask, they're one of the largest advertisers for laundromats in the world, so small business owners have discovered that owning a laundromat is a very good business, you're serving your community, you're providing a great service, but it's very important to set up realistic expectations. So, he and Barbara, when they consult a company, they want to find out even,

“What kind of doors you have?”

“Do you have doors that are particularly when moms and dads are coming in with their kids, are the doors automatic? Are they wide doors?”

“Are you operating new machines?”

Because they want to set up realistic expectations for the end consumer. So, when they work with one of their clients, they do ask them how their operations run. They've been very fortunate to attract top operators in communities across the US, but when it comes to restaurants and spirits companies and hotels and HVAC and doctors and things like that, service providers, they do want to make sure that the product that they say they're offering is the end user experience that the customer has. But as Barbara said, it's not their responsibility to make sure they do operations well, but they advise them, “Hey, get your operations down, and let's make sure the promise that we give is matched with the in-store experience.”

Barbara Wardell: shared that that’s something they think that is very important. So, that's why they do a lot of research before they take on a client. They ask them a lot of questions to make sure that they're doing what they're promising in their ads, because you don't want that customer to come in and say, “Okay, this is not what the promise was, right?” Then they won't come back.

Ernesto Cullari: shared that they're concerned about their numbers; in order to do well for you, they need to be telling the truth. There needs to be truth in advertising, and they don't want their numbers as a company to be impacted because they're committed to delivering as much as 5000 visits a month, and if their clients are not on their end, providing the proper customer experience, it does impact him and Barbara. So, they're very competitive, they want to make sure they uphold the things that they say they're going to do, and they tend to advise their clients 100% of the time to do the same to make sure they're matching the experience with their ad promise.

The Impact of Geofencing

Me: So, in the feedback that you just provided, it got me thinking to the fact that, do you find geofencing it's most effective or impactful based on your geographical location. So, is it that you primarily operate in the United States, in North America? And do you find that geofencing would be different based on, let's say, a customer who is in Nigeria, in Africa, or a customer who is in Kingston, Jamaica, in the Caribbean? Do you find that the behaviour based on the geographic location or even the culture of the country, impacts how geofencing works? Is that data that you're able to provide as well to the clients?

Barbara Wardell: Yes. So, they're right now in Australia, Canada and the United States, and there is a culture difference when you advertise in a different country, they found that a lot has to do, they do a lot of studies before they break into another country, to make sure that they understand the behaviours and kind of they do a listening device that kind of listens to the area to see, because they track mobile foot traffic, right? So, that's one of the things that they do to work on their geofencing, so they already know when they go into that area, what the culture is like, and also talking to the customer as well to understand the area. And also, they do a listening device or a foot traffic study to understand the area that they're targeting.

Ernesto Cullari: Agreed, Barbara said it perfectly. They do set up listening campaigns, and it's basically a beacon to measure, he'll give you an example, Australia, for listeners that haven't been there, he and Barbara have not been there, but when they look at it via satellite, you have these communities that are densely populated, and then you have hundreds of 1000s of acres of wide open space. So, they really need to do due diligence and measure the amount of devices that are available in an area before they market to them. So now, they haven't tested yet whether this works in Africa or South Africa, but right now, they're for sure it works all throughout Asia and it's a matter of so say, Nigeria, for example, they would have to set up a listening campaign, they would have to measure the amount of devices that are available and then determine what kind of devices are they. Are they iPhones, Samsungs and Androids, or are they flip phones and some other mixture of devices and that will impact what kind of the ads they use.

Me: All right. So, that definitely answers my question, and I think it will help to guide the listeners as well in terms of if they're small business owners, or even working in organizations with small business owners that they can definitely identify if this is something that would benefit them and benefit creating more traffic for their organization, generating more customers and hopefully impacting their customer experience.

App, Website or Tool that Barbara and Ernesto Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Their Business

Barbara Wardell: When asked about online resource that they cannot live without in their business, Barbara stated that she thinks it's the foot traffic study only because it gives them a lot of information before they even launch a campaign for any one of their customers. It is something that they can see a half hour before and a half hour after the customers, where they go from that that area, or that specific customer, and also for a year, they can go back for a year to look at that traffic and see where those customers go.

Ernesto Cullari: He thinks for himself, he has his hand in a lot of working on the creatives for clients. And even though there are wonderful platforms out there, like the whole Adobe Suite, which includes Premier, Photoshop, Lightroom and all that, and Adobe Illustrator, and he thinks they're all great. But he likes the prosumer which are applications that anybody off the street could use. So, if you're a small business owner or even a big business owner, and you want an application where you don't need to go to your team or your assistant, you want to be able to do something yourself, Canva is a wonderful platform that he has actually, when he works in Canva after working in something like Adobe, his turnaround time sometimes in Canva is so much quicker because it's made for dummies.

Canva is made for dummies. So, he loves Canva, and also, they manage designers, and those designers, they work in Creatopy, again, so that's a prosumer, anybody off the street could use that website, it makes great looking html5 ads.

And again, as someone who manages creatives, if he doesn't like something, can go into Creatopy, and he could fix it himself. So, he thinks no matter where you are in your journey as a business owner, whether you manage a fortune 100 company and you have to deal with your admin, your marketing men and women, or you own a small business and you have to do it yourself, or you're hiring an agency like them, Canva and Creatopy, in addition to the Adobe Creative Suite, are just wonderful platforms.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Barbara and Ernesto

Ernesto Cullari: When asked about books that have had an impact, Ernesto shared that he read Confessions of an Advertising Man by Ogilvy, which he thinks is one of the greatest books on advertising you can read. But also, it's not just advertising, it's in general, if you're someone who needs to communicate to the masses or to discrete audiences, small audiences, learning the art of communication is important, and he thinks Confessions of an Advertising Man, he have found invaluable.

In addition to Sun Tzu's Art of War, sometimes you have to crush your competition, and you have to be able to have the stomach for it, and strategy is necessary. And Sun Tzu’s The Art of War he would also say. And then the Bible.

Barbara Wardell: She has to say one of her favorite is Wabi Sabi Love, it's about being in the present and appreciating everything that’s in your life at that moment, because it could be gone tomorrow, and she’s had that experience, she’s read a ton of marketing books, but that's one that's close to her heart.

Ernesto Cullari: He shared that Yanique asked earlier about cost effectiveness, and the cost per acquisition and things like that. How does this compare to other forms of advertising? So, he’s sure a lot of listeners out there have for various reasons, could be for charity, could be for advertising, could be for marketing. They've engaged in Facebook, Google advertising to promote an event or product. So, he can tell you, doing the engagement using Facebook and then starting with other forms of advertising since then, and he can tell you that geofencing, pound per pound is the Mike Tyson, is the absolute Mike Tyson of advertising. Everyone else is a lightweight. There is no censorship.

So, if you run political ads, you will face no censorship of any sort on the geofencing side, unlike Facebook and Google, who will silence you if they don't agree with your viewpoints. And in terms of reach and measurement, dollar for dollar, there's just nothing as effective as geofencing.

So, on a $500, he doesn't recommend only spending this, but on a $500 budget per month, you can end up with 20 people coming through your door. I do recommend for five-mile radius that you spend at least $1,000 on your market, that way, if you know the cost per customer, meaning how much money your average customer spends, you have the opportunity to 10 to 30x your return on investment depending on what the value of a new customer is for you.

In some of their verticals that they work with, the value of a new customer is $40,000 so on the $1,000 ad spend, if you gain one new client a month, that's a quite impressive return on investment. For other clients they have in the laundry industry, some of their clients are worth 1200 to 2500 a year. So, if they send the 30, 40, 50 customers a month, then that again, is quite a handsome return on investment, agreed.

What Barbara and Ernesto is Really Excited About Now!

Barbara Wardell: When asked about something that they are really excited about, Barbara shared that they just launched which they're really excited about, their dashboard for their clients so that they can go in and see the reporting instead of them emailing them their reports, so now that they can go into the system and actually on their time and actually look at and see their results of their campaign.

Ernesto Cullari: He shared that he’s excited about he and Barbara just got finished running a fundraiser from his mother's orphanage in the Philippines. She operates what's called Street Kids Philippine Missions, and she's been there for 15 years with her husband, Matt, and they have rescued kids that were in danger of being sex trafficked, that were eating out of garbage cans, that were basically destitute. And it's their 15th year, they just successfully raised $20,000 and that was simply an online campaign where they used their podcasting studio to talk about what his mom does, and Matt does there. And they're pretty proud of being able to use their resources to help kids that face sex trafficking that would otherwise be destitute. And he would say he’s most happy and proud about that development.

Where can listeners find you online?

Website – www.cullarimedia.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Barbara and Ernesto Uses

Ernesto Cullari: When asked about a quote to they tend to revert to, Ernesto shared from The Art of War, “He whose forces are of one mind will be victorious.”

Barabra Wardell: She shared that mainly, she always tells herself to be in the present moment and not get sidetracked by other things that are going on. But she can't think of a quote right now.

Me: Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedules and hopping on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to geofencing and the impact that it can have on 10x’ing your business, getting new clients, the advantage that it has over traditional media, advertising and just the opportunity for you to understand your customer base a little bit more, get an idea of where they're coming from and why they're coming to you, so you can continue to build on that and even exceed their expectations. So, I think it was a great conversation, and I just wanted to extend my deepest gratitude to you both.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Confessions of an Advertising Man by Dave Ogilvy

• The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Alan Versteeg, an engineer turned sales management expert, initially approached the sales world with skepticism, but soon turned it into a thriving career by applying the engineering principles of cause and effect to sales and sales management. This success led him to co-founding Growth Matters, where Alan and his team have developed over 2,000 sales managers across 45+ countries and diverse industries.

Known for his candid and light-hearted approach, Alan's passion for the sales profession shines through in his insightful talks, leaving audiences engaged with his wisdom, expertise, and memorable one liners.

Questions

· Now, could you start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Can you share with us maybe two overarching themes that you try to help sales professionals master in terms of their mindset, to get them to where you need them to be in order to master their sales?

· What are some barriers that you believe a lot of salespeople face, why it is you believe they're not successful?

· Now, Alan, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners maybe two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great impact on you.

· Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Just want to ask you as well, Alan, in your experience, in the journey of your lifetime, if you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, if for any reason, you got derailed. Do you have a quote or a saying that once repeated or just remembered it helps to get you back on track?

Highlights

Alan’s Journey

Me: Now, could you start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

Alan shared that he started as an electronic engineer, it wasn't his fault, he grew up watching Airwolf Night Rider and MacGyver, so he thought that's what he'd be doing. Unfortunately, he lost his dad when he was quite young, he was about 12 years old, but he was an engineer, so he thought that'd be a good thing to do. But he was doing it for about 3 years after graduating, and he read a book called You're Born an Original, Don't Die a Copy by John Mason, and he said, “If you passionately hate what you're doing for more than 2 weeks, you need to stop,” and he'd been doing it for two years.

And a friend of his suggested he goes into sales, which he then tried and please if your listeners don't drop off now, but he got asked to leave his first sales jobs, but it was frustrating. As an engineer, he believed in cause and effect. He believes that there's things you do that get you certain outcomes. He was doing everything they told him to do, but he couldn't find a way to get through, he'd be good at his product, he was passionate to what he was doing, but he wasn't able to succeed.

And then he worked under a manager, he said to him, “Alan, is sales a job or a profession?” So, he knew the right answer, the right answer was, it's a profession. And he said, “Well, how hard did you study for this profession?”

And then the penny drops, and from there on out, been a passionate reader, 50 to 60 books a year, generally related to psychology, self-development and sales and over time, realized that the big change in sales is sales management, and that's a short view of his journey to where he was and how he got here.

Mindset Needed for Sales Professionals

Me: Now you deal with a lot of sales professionals, and I can imagine it starts with their mindset. Can you share with us maybe two overarching themes that you try to help sales professionals master in terms of their mindset, to get them to where you need them to be in order to master their sales?

Alan stated that it's a great question, and it speaks to the tone of your podcast. So, the first mindset they have to own is that “Selling won't help, but helping will sell.” That the sale is the reward for an intent to create value. And that's the starting point when we realize that we are service orientated, that we're there to drive value into the client's business or life, that there's something specifically we're trying to do, that were truthfully customer centric it's not just a word, and we realize that selling won't help, but helping will sell.

You'll find that salespeople do really well. There's a wonderful book called Selling With Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud by Lisa Earle McLeod, and it shows the research behind the top performing sales professionals globally sell with that noble purpose, with an idea to serve. So, it's definitely one of them.

The second one is probably an extension, he said to sales professionals, “If you believe in the product you sell and you believe it can add value to the person you're serving, then it would be borderline negligent to avoid offering them that value.”

Many salespeople, specifically today are fearful of cold calling or proactive sales calling or reaching out or picking up a phone or speaking to someone, and they take on a very much non-human sales approach, as opposed to going, “I believe, with certainty and conviction that what I have to offer will make their lives or their business easier, and I'm here to help, and helping will sell. So, I'm going to depart from that point.”

And what you find is doing that, apart from that point, the skills, the body language, all the risks that start to develop quite naturally, but often we avoid that, we try to train the skill, but we avoid the mindset.

Barriers To Overcome as Salespeople

Me: So, once you tackle their mindset, now you have to ensure that what they're selling, as you mentioned before, is actually helping the customer and adding value to the customer's life. What are some barriers that you believe a lot of salespeople face, why it is you believe they're not successful?

Alan shared that he thinks the big barrier specifically in professional selling is conviction of the value proposition, and before that is clarity. And he'll give a couple of examples.

When he speaks to business leaders, they often say to him, “You know what Alan, the challenge with our sales teams are they just don't understand our value proposition.”

And he says, okay, great. What is your value proposition? And they struggle to articulate it. Now, if you think about this, why is it that entrepreneurs can sell quite effectively without ever having been trained in that skill, and the reality is they have clarity and conviction of their value proposition. He thinks with many sales professionals, we're teaching them the product, we're not teaching them the impact it has on the customer's life.

Once we buy into the impact, once we have the conviction, selling is a natural part of how we are as humans and Dan Pink wrote that book To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others.

And his (Alan) example is we have a brand over there, it's called Woolworths, it's a high-quality brand, high quality food brand. And if you said to anyone, “But why shopping in Woolworths? They're so expensive.” They dive into a defense, without being paid by this company, they will sell very hard the value of doing that.

The same could be said for someone who's an Apple phone fan. And he can continue, once we have conviction of something, the ability and need to persuade is actually quite natural. So, he thinks what's missing from an individual's perspective is that conviction of the mindset.

From a corporate, it's the fact that we speak about customer centricity, but none of our measurement metrics or meetings actually align to that.

Me: Now, I found that in a lot of organizations, they're heavily sales driven, right? I find it as a customer service trainer when companies hire me to come in and train their team, especially the leadership teams in customer service, or even customer experience design or customer journey mapping, there's a lot of emphasis that I hear them talking that they have these exorbitant sales targets to meet on a month to month basis, and with these targets that they have to meet, they don't have as much time to give to customer centricity or to give to the experience, because it's all about meeting the target. How do you strike that balance as a salesperson? What would be your recommendation?

Alan shared that there'd be two components. The first would be at an organizational lens, speaking to what you're saying. He thinks organizations have forgotten that when you take care of the customers, the number takes care of itself. So, we are so focused on the month, on the quarter, on the year, we're not focused on the value, and that's a shift that needs to happen.

But practically, the way that shift happens is in the account planning process, when we start treating our customers and accounts and saying, what is the value we're delivering. Many companies go, what more can we sell them? What's the white space we can sell into? What does that look like? And that's the big organizational.

From a salesperson’s perspective, the only thing you can do is you need to figure out how to allocate your effort. And the way he says that is you have to beat everyone equally but handle them differently. You have to segment your customers, otherwise you can't take care of the ones that need to be taken care of, and your competitor is going to snatch them up. And in any sales business, he’s ever worked with, if you lose, and it's generally about 10%, if you lose about 10% of your customers, you lose about 90% of your revenue.

But organizations are just focused what's the next sale, what's the next sale, what's the next sale? And what happens is, we're putting two barrels on the truck, and three barrels are falling off the truck because we're not focused on the customer service.

And we almost see it as something separate, and it's not. The way he articulates this is there's a thing called the value gap, it's the gap between what customers expect and what they experience. And it is everybody's job in the organization to close that gap.

It's not, “Hey, sales go set the expectation. Hey, service go and deliver against that expectation.” It's an organizational mindset that we exist to close the gap between the customers expect and what they experience.

And he thinks their leadership needs to start realizing that taking care of customers, the numbers take care of themselves, and that talking to a spreadsheet or talking to a CRM system or talking to data doesn't change people's behaviour.

So, leadership needs to take a different perspective on this and going, what is it we do now that lays the soil in the seeds for the numbers we need?

App, Website or Tool that Alan Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Alan shared that right now ChatGPT. He thinks that we are negating its value in sales if we're using it incorrectly. So, he’ll give you a context.

As salespeople, we need to be creative and optimistic, and we're not fans of admin. So, the good news for sales professionals is a lot of our admin is going to be replaced by technology, but that's going to leave a lot of sales professionals wanting because what do you do with the time that you used to spend putting your data. But he really leverages the tool to shorten his learning curve, understanding a customer, understanding what the challenges are, understanding key things. It's a tool to summarize, it doesn't replace him as it shouldn't, it enhances him.

And he was listening to one of Yanique’s earlier podcasts, you talk about the human-to-human connection, and there's this thing now where we talk about human-to-human selling. And he’s like, well, if you think human to human selling is new, then you haven't been around for millennia, because that's what it is. It's a human-to-human task enhanced by technology. But right now, if he talks about probably 60% to 70% of his time is given back to him because he knows to leverage ChatGPT.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Alan

When asked about books that have had an impact, Alan shared that that's a tough question with all the books he read, but he’s going to give one that he always recommends. The first one is called The Slight Edge: Turning Simple Disciplines into Massive Success and Happiness by Jeff Olson, and the premise of the book is that simple disciplines practiced consistently over time, lead to a life of greatness, and simple errors in judgment made consistently over time, lead to a life of blame. There's no Hollywood moment, there's not one big movement, they're just simple disciplines. Look at any leader, any sports hero, any person who succeeds in their profession, they practice the disciplines. So, there's definitely one that guides his life.

And then the other one is a book called The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller, and it's really about forgetting this construct of work life balance and finding out what's the one thing I can do such that by doing everything else is easier or unnecessary. And it talks about this work life counterbalance, and how you just keep the things that matter, you don't make them extreme fluctuations and the things that don't matter can be extreme. You can be heavily buried in a work project for three months, but during that time, don't forget your health, your family time, the things that matter. Just tone it down a bit, not all the way down. Those are two books, he'd say, personally, really drove him.

As a business professional, recently read that 10x Is Easier Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan, wonderful resource for anyone that's listening, that is an entrepreneur or business owner, 10x Is Easier Than 2x.

What Alan is Really Excited About Now!

Me: Now, Alan, could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Alan shared that he’s recently moved to a smaller coastal towns that's been really good for him personally, but the big thing happening for him business wise, is there's a very large global brand that they've managed to secure that's 10x’ing our business, which is a plan they had based on that book that he’s read, and starting to see how that effort, energy and focus is paying off, is really rewarding. When you read a lot of books, you can get sometimes caught up in the story and not in the action.

And what's really great to see, in a proud moment for their business, is now really starting to take on some recognized global brands who are looking at effectively three guys from South Africa and saying, “We want to partner with you to do this.” So, it's a proud moment that's come, your overnight success is the longest night of your life.

But really what it's been powerful is seeing the practices that they put in place now starting to bear fruit. And when you say, take care of the customers, the number takes care itself, it's actually quite prolific, how?

And you know this, he’s preaching to the converted, but when you understand that the only thing that matters is how customers experience you, then everything else becomes a lot easier, because their ability to grow is because they just have a track record where they phone a customer, and they love what they've done with them. And that doesn't mean it's easy to scale, it's still hard to scale. But he thinks that'd be the big thing right now, is seeing how by applying certain principles, you can stretch your own mindset, stretch your own goals, stretch your own vision for your business, and really start to play where you always believed you can.

Where can listeners find Alan online?

LinkedIn – Alan Versteeg

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Alan Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Alan shared that he has quite a few, but one of his favourites, because of its depth is, “How you do anything, is how you do everything.” And the reason that's so important is it's easy to be in a good mood when times are good, it's easy to be of a good character when times are good, it's easy to be a pleasant person when times are good, but when things are challenging, that's where your character gets tested.

And how you do anything, is how you do everything. And he says to leaders all the time, Richard Branson said it so well, “The best way to take care of your customers is to take care of your employees.” Because the minute you take care of the employees, the customers feel that. And it's because how you do anything, is how you do everything.

You can't be polite to your customers but rude to the person waiting at you at a restaurant or trying to help you at the airport. Airports are so fascinating because everyone complains to people who are really just trying to get you somewhere safely and within strict guidelines that people, they don't treat people well.

And he believes that how you do anything, is how you do everything. And in challenging times, that tests you, can I remain of good spirit?

Can I remain a good demeanor?

Can I remain patient as a person when things are difficult?

Can I maintain my faith?

Because it's easy to maintain my faith when things are great, it's difficult when you're in the lion's den, and that's for him, a quote that just guides him and says, just remember, they still shape your character, this is a test of your character and a bad day for the ego, is a beautiful day for the soul. It's time to grow.

Me: Well, thank you, Alan, so much for hopping on this podcast and sharing all of these great insights with us. It was very insightful to understand your perspective as it relates to sales and customer service, and to reinforce a lot of what we do talk about on this podcast, Navigating the Customer Experience as it relates to ensuring that the customer experience is not just managed effectively on the outside, but it needs to start on the inside. And you said it beautifully when you gave Richard Branson's quote that if you take care of your people on the inside, and they'll definitely take care of your customers on the outside. So, I think it was a really great conversation and I just really wanted to extend our deepest gratitude for your participation in our conversation today.

Alan shared an extended thanks to Yanique and the work she’s doing in this space. One of the things that he definitely picks up in everything Yanique shared, the customer experience is not a thing, it's a culture and when we actually realize this, everything becomes easier, because it seems obvious, it does take a lot of work, as you know, it's a profession. But when companies understand it, the only reason we exist is to create value for customers, then the customer experience is the report card. So, thank you so much for the work you're doing in this space and for having him on the show.

Please connect with us on X @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience.

Links

• You’re Born an Original, Don’t Die a Copy by John Mason

• Selling With Noble Purpose: How to Drive Revenue and Do Work That Makes You Proud by Lisa Earle McLeod

• To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others by Daniel H. Pink

• The Slight Edge: Turning Simple Disciplines into Massive Success and Happiness by Jeff Olson

• The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller

• 10x Is Better Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Neil Leyland is a Chief Contact Center Strategist at InterVision, and he is an exceptional PMP and six Sigma black belt certified senior-level program leader and a proven problem-solver. A highly motivated achiever with a career history in sales and operations management for international multi-unit retail operations.

Possessing excellent interpersonal, presentation, written and verbal communication skills, which are used to solve problems, consult on technology projects and develop long-term collaborative relationships.

Questions

· Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?

· When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?

· Could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that has impacted you either professionally or personally.

· Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Neil’s Journey

Me: Neil, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Neil stated that you can probably tell, he’s not from the US, although he’s based there now. Finishing up from university, he went straight into working for enterprise, Rent a Car, did probably 20 or so years with them. Worked from the main counter at a rental office all the way through to leading an area. Then he moved countries during that time and started working more on the technology side and being far more strategic as opposed to tactical.

Then settled in St. Louis, got married, had kids, and then moved through several different companies, picking up good and bad practices along the way, and he’s ended up at just coming up to 12 months now with InterVision.

About InterVision

Me: Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about InterVision, what they do and what your role at InterVision is?

Neil shared InterVision is an AWS premier tier partner. They specialize in transforming contact centers to their flagship product, Connective CX, powered by Amazon Connect. They also integrate AI to deliver seamless omnichannel engagements. They address common pain points for call centers, like reducing call volume and the costs associated, they do this through improve engaging efficiency and also enhance customer satisfaction. They can be found at www.intervision.com.

His role within InterVision, he would say is a Contact Center Evangelist. So, he works with clients and look at problems that they face, and then help them find what is either the best operational or technological solution to best satisfy customers’ needs or solve problems that the companies have been satisfying those needs, so tying together his history working in retail, as well as time and technology, and sort of blending the two, to give what people consider to be a best in class solution for them.

Understanding the Approach in AI and Machine Learning in the Contact Centre

Me: So, you are in the contact center space, and your strategy is to ensure that you have a holistic approach using AI and machine learning, two very popular words that are being used very frequently in the CX space. When you say holistic approach using AI and machine learning, can you explain to us what that means? Is it that robots are going to replace human beings? Or are you looking more from a support side, just tell us how it is that you actually see it working?

Neil stated that he thinks it's actually good to approach it from a journey perspective, if you will. So, if you think about somebody that has a transaction, whether that be online or in person, and then they need some level of support. So, they come through to a contact center, and at that point, contact centers have really embraced AI and machine learning to help customers come through and get a better level of experience. So, whether that be at the starting point when they answer the phone, you can have chatbots either on the website or on the IVR that are able to answer and interact with customers and provide them with quick hit answers and potentially resolve problems for them quickly and efficiently. Now that's one use of AI.

People say, well, is that going to replace people?

He doesn't think it does, because it solves the simple problems AI and ML doesn't have the ability to solve.

So, when people do get to an agent or somebody on the phone, or whether a chat or send an email and get a reply, the agents are able to spend that little bit more time to solve a problem, so it elevates the customer experience even though it's not necessarily AI based.

When you think about that side though, you get AI does weave its way in there and provide agents with the ability to serve customers or call us better. So, you get crazy things like, there are AI tools out there now that will listen to the conversation, will understand the context of it, understand the ask and serve up knowledge or information to the agent real time, so they can better solve the problem.

So, it will literally know this customer sounds like they have a question about x, here's the most common answers to x, is this the right thing to say and serve that up to the agent.

So, the agents might not have any real experience of the problem, but they've got a proven history of other people being able to solve that question, or a very similar question, quickly and efficiently, and they can copy it. And then that really helps agents appear to be more efficient, more friendly, and for everybody that's listening, and everyone's been put on hold. No one likes to be put on hold, or “I don't know the answer to that, let me transfer you”, that can go away, which is really, really profound and gives a perception of quality well and above the norm.

And then the other side of it that's kind of cool, is you can have sentiment monitoring. So, if somebody's listening to this call, the AI or ML in the background will be monitoring it, and they can flag calls to supervisors or to other people to say, “Hey, Neil's really happy with this call. Neil's unhappy with this call. We might need some help. Somebody may need to join this call because Neil's struggling with it.”

So, it basically not only gives the ability to empower people and have them answer questions well, but it gives them monitoring so that people can actually get involved and engaged and help customers that have got problems and prevent issues, if that makes sense.

Me: Yes, it absolutely does. I attended a conference, I think it was the first and second of May, hosted by a company called CX Outsourcers Mindshare. They brought together, I believe, close to 80 persons from all over the world, from all different continents, that were in the contact center space. And my role at the event was, I sat on a podcast panel with a podcaster from Brazil and one from South Africa talking about the influence of podcasting on customer experience and the impact that it will have in the contact center space.

One of the things that I found fascinating at the conference, and this was predominantly I believe in, I know in the Caribbean for sure, and definitely in Africa, and you can let me know what your feedback is based on your exposure and experience that hiring, in terms of recruitment was a big issue that they were facing in the contact centers and trying to integrate AI and more importantly, as it relates to recruitment, ensuring that as they go forward and AI is more integrated into the whole process of solving customers problems, having AI do the more simplistic activities and tasks, and then having the agents do more complex tasks. Is that a trend that you've seen happening? Or is there anything else that you'd like to add to that conversation?

Neil shared that it definitely is. It's causing an upskilling, or an appearance of upskilling of people that answer the phone or answer the chats. Because when he started in the contact center space, companies would train an agent for 4, 6, 8 weeks, maybe even more to make sure that they have the skill set and the knowledge to be able to answer not just 80%.

Neil shared that Yanique is absolutely correct that AI and machine learning is having a profound impact on the agents and upskilling, because the ability for machines to take away the simpler tasks means that agents can do things that are more interesting and rewarding for one. So, that makes the job more fun, that's an important component.

The other side is, years ago, as companies brought people on board, they'd spend weeks and weeks training them, and nowadays that's just not necessary, because most companies have invested, or are looking to invest in a single pain so all of the information is shared to them, and when that's augmented by machine learning to provide sensible text or answers or knowledge that's appropriate, agents appear to be more knowledgeable with less training, faster and that gives a great different for companies that are embracing it. It's a great differentiate. It really helps the agents feel valued, enjoy the job, and therefore more likely to be retained and that skill level is retained.

So, generally, companies that companies that retain the skill gets better over time, and it also the other piece is, he thinks it helps companies attract people, because the job is more fun and more rewarding. So, the benefits not only in the people that work there, it's about getting the better talent in the front door as well.

App, Website or Tool that Neil Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he can’t live without in his business, Neil shared that for him personally, and this is going to sound a little bit old school, he absolutely loves using YouTube, and he will go visit YouTube looking for how to build a presentation, looking for information, ways to do things, learnings, classes, he finds a great value with day to day, he’s looking at YouTube and watching videos on lots and lots of topics continually, because he thinks it's a quick and easy way to learn how to do something new or refine what he’s doing based on somebody else's best practices, whether that be consultants that have classes on how to do PowerPoint presentations, or even people that do public speaking regularly and share tips and trades on how they do it. So, he uses YouTube a lot, and slowly but surely, he thinks that's starting to be replaced a little bit by TikTok, because he likes 60 second bites as opposed to 20-minute videos.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Neil

When asked about books that have had an impact, Neil shared that books that he really enjoyed and got a lot out of is a book called Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins, it's an older book now, but it's been around for a good few years that definitely influenced his working life, because the ideology is all in the title. So, how can you be better, and how can you differentiate yourself or the company you work for, and make a difference, and then elevate to go from being a good company to a great company or a good employee to a great employee. So, that's one of the books that definitely influenced his career. And he really enjoyed the fact that it had case studies in there that you were able to look at, read and understand, and then it gives you that a little bit more of a practical application when there's case studies that you can look at.

What Neil is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Neil shared that he’s been with InterVision approximately 12 months, and in that time, they've had a tremendous amount of growth.

They are working a significant amount with Amazon, on Amazon Connect in the contact center space, and watching how that's changing the contact center space is really, really incredible. And with that, they have releases on a weekly or biweekly basis, and you see new technologies and new items come out, and it's actually an interesting challenge making sure that his team is not only at the cutting edge of technology, but what's new and modern today is, for want of a better description, a month old in a month's time.

And making sure that his team are kept current and up to date with all of these technology changes, specifically around AI and ML, that's really an interesting challenge, because the solutions of a year ago aren't solutions for today, and he finds that both interesting challenge from a business perspective, but it's also rewarding because you get the opportunity to have people do training classes and learnings to make sure that they're at the top of their skill game to be able to deliver the best in class products that they like to offer.

Where can listeners find Neil online?

LinkedIn – Neil Leyland

Website – www.intervision.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Neil Uses

Me: Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Neil, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Neil shared that it's not quite that, but there's a phrase that he often thinks about in challenges when he’s working with his colleagues, or they're looking at a project and how to move forward, and it's directly related to customer service and it's, “The tolerance of poor behaviour is worse than the behaviour itself.”

Me: That's such a powerful statement.

Neil shared that he loves it because it's applicable everywhere. In your personal life, you can choose not to go to the gym, or you can go to the gym. In work, you can watch people do things and managers do things or accept things and that they shouldn't and as soon as a behaviour becomes ingrained, it's far more challenging to remove it.

Me: Yeah, agreed. Thank you so much for sharing.

So, we just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Neil, for hopping on our podcast today, sharing about InterVision, about your journey, as well as what you're doing at InterVision, the impact of AI and machine learning, the opportunity that workers have in the centers as agents to upskill their competencies and behaviours so that they can better serve customers and solve problems quicker. It was really a rewarding and engaging conversation, and I want to just extend our deepest gratitude to you. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t by Jim Collins

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Dr. Eric Recker is a dentist, husband, father, keynote speaker, Elite Success Coach, author, pilot, mountain climber and recovering triathlete. In his second half of life, he is committed to helping people shorten the distance to becoming their best version and learning to #WINtheNOW.

Questions

· We'd love for you to share in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you share maybe two or three overarching themes that you believe have been the core values that have driven you to get to where you are today, and if other people were to embrace or embody those same core values, you believe they would achieve the same success.

· What would you say are some of the success tools that have made both businesses thrive in a positive way, if you were to look at them and see if there are any overlapping behaviors or competencies that help to strengthen the customer experience in both areas.

· Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Now, could you also share with our listeners, Eric, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you. It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has impacted you, both professionally and even personally.

· Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off course, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Eric’s Journey

Me: Eric, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their own journey. So, your bio basically gave us a very short summary of all the wonderful things that you have and are still doing, but we'd love for you to share in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Eric shared that he really could give a short version of that, and it would take about 4 hours, but he'll try to really crunch it down together and say that he was bullied on the playground when he was growing up. He grew up in a small town in Iowa in the early 80s, and recess kickball was life, and he was told that he couldn't play because he wasn't good enough, and so unfortunately, that you are not good enough became a soundtrack for him, and he told himself on the sideline of that recess kickball field that he was going to be so good at everything he ever did that no one would ever not pick him.

Well, fast forward into his professional career as a dentist, he truly believed that he wasn't good enough, so he overshot on everything, overcompensated on everything, always kept adding more and more and more because he was trying to prove to other people that he was good enough. That led to three significant rounds of burnout, including chest pain, heart palpitations, panic attacks, all of that to the point that he got very close to selling his dental practice and walking away.

When that all fell through, he needed to step back and decide what he really wanted to do with this life, and he knew that he had a powerful story. He'd been through a lot, and he wanted to be able to help other people on their journey.

So, what he does now is he has sold half of his dental practice to a partner. He sees patients three days a week, and the other days he speak and coach and write books and do content and all of those kinds of things, trying to help other people on their journey, so that they don't have to go as far down the burnout trail as he went.

Me: That is awesome. What a wonderful story.

Core Values for Success - Themes that Drive Achievement and Fulfillment

Me: So, Eric, you speak a lot about burnout and mindset and just handling the different stresses of life, can you share with our listeners on your own personal journey, when you got to that point, when you realized that you needed to make a change? If you could share maybe two or three overarching themes that you believe have been the core values that have driven you to get to where you are today, and if other people were to embrace or embody those same core values, you believe they would achieve the same success.

Eric shared that first of all, where it all went wrong each time that he went through that terrible season of burnout, he noticed the same equation now that he looks back on it, kind of doing a forensic examination of it was over committed. He had too much on his plate, as a lot of us do, but even more importantly, he wasn't taking care of himself, he just kept going. He just kept adding more and more, and that's where the problem was.

So, one of the big core values that he has is taking care of himself. So, we have to be a little bit selfish so that we can be selfless. If we don't have anything to give, we won't be able to give anything to our people. We won't be able to have an impact on those that we are around, and we will definitely get burned out.

Another huge core value for him is relationships. He’s a highly relational person, and it's extremely important to him that he has some good quality relationships in his life, and it's important for all of us. So, he has a mentor that he meets with, he has a coach that he works with, and he has 4 people that he would consider, 2:00 am friends, people that he could call in the middle of the night if his world fell apart. So, relationships and self-care would be two of the big things that he thinks we really need to be careful and make sure we embrace those.

Me: Absolutely love those two themes that you've shared with us.

Success Tools for Thriving Businesses - Overlapping Behaviors and Competencies that Enhance Customer Experience

Me: Now, I love the fact that one of your themes was relationships, and a big part of customer experience, as this podcast is focused on navigating the customer experience is building strong relationships. All organizations aim to have customers for life, and a big part of that is building strong relationships with those customers, whether it be a B2B or a B2C. Since you pretty much managing two businesses, because you mentioned that you coach and you write books and you do speeches and stuff for organizations and people, and then you also have your practice where you're in office three days per week. What would you say are some of the success tools that have made both businesses thrive in a positive way, if you were to look at them and see if there are any overlapping behaviours or competencies that help to strengthen the customer experience in both areas.

Eric shared that one thing that he teaches his team is to be aware of the rest of the story, it's a huge thing for him. People are complicated, so, in his dental practice, people will come in and they'll maybe see them for an hour of their life, and they might be grumpy when they come in, they might be scared, they might be, however they present themselves to them is just a snapshot of how their life is going. They may not be taking very good care of themselves, they may be in a bad place, they may have gotten a diagnosis, they may have a family member that's really struggling, they may have any number of things that's going on. They may be crazy burned out, and they get to see a little snapshot of them.

So, when somebody comes in, they don't seem like themselves, or if they've just met them, and they're kind of off putting to them at the beginning, just understand that they're seeing a snapshot of a bigger picture of someone's life. And so, he thinks it's always important that they think about that, they don't always get the chance to know the whole person, but especially in someone that you've been in relationship with for a while, if they seem off, then there's something more going on, and it might be worth exploring that.

Me: So, you're lying in the dentist chair, right? And what would you call the person that's serving the client, a dental assistant? And the dental assistant picks up that the patient is agitated, walk us through that. What would you want he or she to do to kind of have the patient relax, maybe build some conversation. Do you just have casual talk? Do you pick a topic, maybe about the weather? Do you think about something that's maybe current affairs, like Donald Trump?

Eric shared that he definitely stays away from politics. Stay away from politics and hot button news things, that's for sure. People get pretty fired up about that. But exactly that scenario that you had. The great thing about his practice is a lot of the patients that he sees, he’s been seeing for 20 years. And so, when they come in, if something doesn't seem right, then they'll ask them,

“Hey, is everything going okay today?”

“Well, I'm just really nervous about this procedure.”

“Okay, well, tell me more about that.”

And a lot of times, really all someone needs to do is voice what they're feeling or talk about the procedure before they do it, and then it becomes a lot easier. And if it doesn't, if they're still amped up, they say things like, “Hey, the good news is this is all the longer this procedure is going to be. So, in half the time it takes to watch a movie, you're going to be on your way.”

So, they try to break it into more manageable chunks if people are apprehensive, and sometimes they have to take a little break and just let everybody sit up and breathe. And then they get back into it. But they really try to meet the patient right where they are and help them work through the situation, because it doesn't do any good if they're escalated, and Eric’s team is escalated, then they're going to have a hard time getting through the procedure.

App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about on online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Eric shared that for him, he would just say that it's his own personal website, it's hugely important whenever he gets asked, “So, hey, where do we find you? How can we get in touch with you. How can we learn more about you?” He’s very proud of his website, he had a great web designer, but through there, everything flows to his social media, to his blog, to his books, to the different opportunities that he has, some free online resources. It’s something that he’s very thankful that he spent some money on, because it's the way that a lot of people end up finding him.

Me: Perfect. And we will ask you the question for where our listeners can find you online, which I'm sure your website will be one of those resources later on in the episode.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Eric shared that two of them definitely come to mind. One is going to be, and a lot of people have probably heard of this one is Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear, just an incredible resource. We are the product of our habits and our routines. It is worth taking time to get good habits and routines in our lives, because everything else flows from those patterns that are in our life. So, that's a huge one.

Another one that many people probably have not heard of as much is called In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day: How to Survive and Thrive When Opportunity Roars and that's by one of his favorite authors, Mark Batterson, and it describes what we do when adversity hits in our lives, because it's not a question of if, it's a question of when things are going to happen to us, and how do we react to those things.

What Eric is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Eric stated that he mentioned the whole not good enough, and the paradigm that that presented him with. So, he used to do a lot of triathlons, mountain climbing, stuff like that, he went all the way through the Iron Man distance. He’s climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, all of that was pretty much done on a faulty operating system that he had in his mind that he wasn't good enough and he needed to prove himself to people.

So, it's really been about 7 years since he’s done any kind of an endurance race or anything like that. He’s climbed some smaller mountains and done some stuff like that. But there's an event that he’s going to be doing the second week of August, and it's going to be at Snow Basin Resort in Utah, and it's called 29029, which is the vertical height of Mount Everest above sea level. So, the goal is, in 36 hours, he has to hike 29,000 vertical feet.

Me: Wow.

Eric shared that that's usually the first word that people say. So, what he will do is, he'll hike up this mountain, and each time he goes up, he will gain 2300 feet. So, he will hike the same mountain 13 times. So, hike up the mountain, and he will ride the gondola back down. And there's going to be 250 to 300 of them he believes that will be there doing this. And his goal for this is to one, he wanted to train for an event again, he really wanted to be focused and intentional about how he trained for it.

But the other thing that he wants to do is he wants to learn about mindset while he’s doing it. He wants to learn what happens in his mind when he does a repetitive task for 36 hours. He wants to learn where does his mind goes on hikes number 7, 8 and 9, when he can't see the beginning of the hike and he can't see the end, and he’s really in the grind, because he thinks a lot of this will translate into our lives and what we have going on personally. So, he hopes this will be something that he'll be able to give some talks and workshops about in the future. And so, just want to see at 47 years old, just want to see what his body's got in it, what his abilities are.

Me: That's amazing, Eric, wow. I'm going to have to follow you. Are you going to be posting this on your social media?

Eric confirmed, absolutely.

Me: This is fantastic. I would definitely follow you from a personal capacity, just to see, as you mentioned, how do you endure? What are your thoughts? Is it that you feel overcome? Does it impact you emotionally? Like there's so many questions running through my mind right now just listening to you.

Eric stated that he’s excited. There's one time he knows as he’s hiking up that for that whole, he expects it to take about an hour and 15 minutes, probably to hike each time, and at least one of those times he’s just going to be completely quiet and he’s just going to observe the world around me. His son has made him a couple playlists, so he'll listen to some music that he selected for him. One of the times, he’s just going to pray for his family the entire time that he hikes up. So, he has a few of those things. And then, other than that, just going to see what happens. So, he’s super excited about it.

Me: And I guess it's a time also for you to kind of be one with nature and God, because you don't have much distraction, and hopefully you have no injuries, I pray in the name of Jesus that you come out of this injury free. So, you could really meditate, talk to God, as you mentioned, pray for your family and that's something that we don't get to do every day, have moments of silence, because we're just always so busy doing busy work.

Eric agreed that Yanique is so correct. He thinks if people really want their life to change, start with 5 minutes of silence each day, “Well, Eric, why only 5 minutes?” because it's not easy and we're not used to it. Start with 5 minutes of silence and breathing each day and see what that does for you, it's so important, you know this.

Where can listeners find Eric online?

Website – www.ericrecker.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Eric shared that his quote is a Bible verse, and it is Proverbs 3:5-6, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will keep your path straight.” God has been the constant for his journey all the way through, He's been there in the good times and bad times, in the other times, and he’s trying his best to trust that He always knows what the next step is.

Me: I love that. Absolutely love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Eric.

Well, Eric, you have definitely practiced what you preach in this entire interaction that I've had with you. Thank you so very much for being a guest on our podcast, I believe that our listeners would have gained, when the episode is released, will gain a great amount of knowledge, expertise, advice, motivation. I got that from our conversation, and I can tell that you're not just speaking because it's something to do, but it's coming from your heart, and that touches people way more. I mean, people can tell if you're being authentic and genuine, if it's really coming from a place of authenticity, and I feel that in the conversation that I had with you today. So, I just want to express my deepest gratitude to you. Wish you all the best on your hike, I'm going to be there following and cheering you on and just want to say thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear

• In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day: How to Survive and Thrive When Opportunity Roars by Mark Batterson

Mastering Art of Service Excellence: Behavioural Tools and Competencies for CX Success Webinar – Tuesday, August 27, 2024 – 11:00 am (EST)

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Daniel Ruby is a VP of Marketing at Nobl9. Ruby is a dynamic marketing executive with a focus on B2B marketing, and has significant experience building teams and driving successful, data-driven programs for a range of startups and mid-sized organizations. As the Director of Online Marketing for Localytics, Ruby was the first marketing hire and scaled his team to a full-fledged marketing department with domain specialists focused on mobile apps.

Ruby also has a background in journalism and spent several years guest lecturing marketing courses at Bentley University, bringing this dynamic skill set to his current role at Nobl9. Ruby holds a BA in Broadcast Journalism from the University of Missouri-Columbia and an MBA in International Business from Brandeis University.

Questions

· We always like to start off by asking our guests if they could share with us a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Could you share with our listeners, what is Nobl9 and what exactly are you providing? What service are you providing? How are you adding value to your customers lives using this platform?

· Could you give us an example, like a use case of an application, you can choose any industry, and kind of just give us an idea of what that looks like so the audience can get a more practical view.

· Could distinguish or differentiate for our listeners, what's the difference between an SLO and an SLA?

· Now, Daniel, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track.

Highlights

Daniel’s Journey

Me: Now, Daniel, could you share with our listeners, we always like to start off by asking our guests if they could share with us a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Daniel shared that he was a journalist for a while, and kind of realized that there was not much of a market for it, so he kind of went and got an MBA to get a job, and kind of fell backwards into marketing as it is. And over the years, he’s been with more than 10, mostly 10 startups, driving marketing, driving the customer experience in terms of from the moment that they're introduced to them as a brand until the moment that they no longer want to be or need to be working with them.

He finds a lot of joy in trying to make that experience pleasant, for lack of a better term. He’s self-taught with most of the marketing stuff that he does, and he’s kind of over the course of the years he’s become very arrogantly convinced about a few core tenets of really communicating to customers and communicating to potential customers that have served him well, and it kind of always comes back to giving value at every step of the journey.

About Nobl9 – Enhancing Software Reliability and Value for Your Business

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners, what is Nobl9 and what exactly are you providing? What service are you providing? How are you adding value to your customers lives using this platform?

Daniel shared that Nobl9 is basically a platform for software reliability. So, if we think about how somebody engages with a digital product, or even an in-person product with a digital back end to it. They are the premier, and kind of really only well-established provider of what's called Service Level Objectives, or SLOs. And an SLO was basically taking all of the different data points that make up your product, be it from the software, from the infrastructure, from third party microservices, etc, etc, etc, and rolls it up and actually gives a customer centric view into how reliable is their product.

And the reason that they do this is because most reliability, historically has been around is the product up. Is it up? Is it down? But anybody who's ever used a mobile app or a digital product, or even like a scan to pay service at a cafe knows that it's not just is it up? Is it working, or is everything within it doing what it's supposed to do?

So, he knows marketers like himself have taken the word holistic and kind of beaten it to death. But they do provide a holistic customer centric view. What is the customer experience like when actually using your product?

Me: So, Nobl9 is helping the application to maintain its reliability and have as little or no downtime as possible while the customer is interacting with it correct?

Daniel agreed, correct and kind of beyond downtime, is it, does it load fast enough?

Do all of the different features load fast enough?

Is there anything blocking my ability as a customer to buy from you or to use your service, or whatever you're trying to do?

So, that's effectively what they do.

Practical Use Case – How Nobl9 Enhances Software Reliability

Me: Okay, could you give us an example, like a use case of an application, you can choose any industry, and kind of just give us an idea of what that looks like so the audience can get a more practical view.

Daniel shared that it's a little engineering, and he’s a marketer so he feels like he’s not necessarily smart enough to completely understand the engineering speak of it. But if you think about like an Ecommerce app, if you open up the app and it loads in traditional reliability, that's reliable. But how many times have you gone into an app.

So, let's say your path in using E commerce app is, you’re going to load the app, going to search for the product that he wants to buy, he’s going to add it to his cart, he’s going to go to his cart, he’s going to check out. And maybe there's a login to My Account somewhere in the way.

With SLOs, what you can do is you can have all of the different steps of that path viewed as part of this overarching experience with the app. So, if you go to add something to your cart, the app sits there and hangs, that's not good reliability.

If you go to the cart itself, and for whatever reason you go to pay and like the app's connection to PayPal for whatever reason isn't working, and you get this message back that says, hey, we can't complete your payment, try another credit card or something, that's a bad experience. And that's the kind of reliability breakdown that leads people to quit using a product.

So, they make sure that strategically, all of the things that make up that path, you'll have a server dedicated to your shopping cart, you'll have a micro service that is dedicated to completing a purchase. They make sure that all of that you've got visibility into how the experience is for the end user, not just some third-party service that tries to connect and says yes, it can connect, no it can't connect. It's the whole experience of a digital product and they make it easy to understand.

Understanding the Difference – SLOs vs. SLAs

Me: Now, at the beginning, you mentioned that it's based on your SLOs or Service Level Objectives. And just wanted to know if you could distinguish or differentiate for our listeners, what's the difference between an SLO and an SLA?

Daniel stated that that’s a great question. So, an SLA is typically an agreement that you have with your users. You say you'll be able to use my product or my service xx percent of the time. And that's more of a contractual conversation than it is, a reliability conversation. When you start actually building it, in order to make sure that you're achieving this SLA that you’ve agreed upon with your clients, you've got to make sure that you know all of these different elements of their experience are operating at a certain efficiency. So, he hates to over complicate things, but there's actually a step in between called an SLI, a Service Level Indicator.

And so, a Service Level Indicator is things like, “I want my website to load in less than 100 milliseconds.” That's a Service Level Indicator. And the SLI is effectively a consistent goal, but then what you do with SLOs is you take that a little bit further.

So, an SLO operates within what's called an error budget, and you get a certain number of errors per month, per week, however, you want to set it up. And an error is when you don't meet that SLI and you say, “I know that it's maybe not impossible, but either improbable or just extremely expensive to make my website load in less than 100 seconds every single time.”

So, what an SLO does is it says, okay, I expect to meet this SLI however often I have decided is actually impactful on the customer experience, and whenever I don't, you get an error, and at that point, you're like, okay, it's an error, but an error is not an outage.

Daniel stated that he doesn't know if he’s explaining this really well, but basically if you look at an SLO graph, it's going to be going down into the right and that is your budget. You say, okay, I expect this part of my service will meet my everyday life 95% of the time. And then you see the little graph going down, which, every time it doesn't meet that, it froze an error, and a certain amount of errors, it's just part of digital product development is understanding that you have to accept some errors. 100% perfection, it's impossible.

Me: Does not exist.

Daniel agreed, it does not exist. And a lot of people think about reliability in the number of nines, “My product is available 99.99% of the time.” That would be called four nines. Every nine that you add to that number basically increases your IT costs by an order of magnitude. So, at a certain point, you got to understand with SLOs are really the ideal way to do it.

At what point does this actually impact my customers?

At what point does this actually impact my users?

It allows you to be strategic, and it allows you to see things when they begin. So, you mentioned outages earlier, an outage, your whole product crashes, it's unavailable to anybody. Those don't happen in a vacuum, there's something that causes them. And if you've got an SLO or a set of SLOs really, displaying the health of your service, the health of your product, you're suddenly going to see a bunch of errors coming in.

And you may or may not have enough forewarning to say, “Oh, crap, we're about to have an outage. Well, this server in my cloud provider is having massive latency issues, it looks like the server is about to crash, and that's going to take everything down.” You can have a little bit more of a runway to try and identify the actual issue behind a potential outage. And that's where you strategically define how much, how many errors can I tolerate in a month?

And then you basically have a real time view at all times.

Is my product, is my service running the way I expect it to, and the way I expect it to is from the perspective of the customer. Are my customers able to do what they expect to be able to do when they launch my app, or when they use my product.

App, Website or Tool that Daniel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Daniel shared that personally, it's HubSpot. He spent a few years as a HubSpot consultant, a third-party consultant for HubSpot integrations. And he could say a marketing automation platform, but he got a fanboy a little bit about HubSpot because it takes everything that used to be complicated about sales and marketing and customer support and customer experience, and kind of rolls it up. You’ve got your CRM, you've got your automation platform, you've got your email platform. He’s actually taken to feeding his HubSpot metrics into Nobl9 SLO lately, because there's so much rich data within HubSpot.

And he’s been running little things like, they'll change a script for their biz dev team. And then they'll just run a metric on calls connected to calls having a success, either a demo or a follow up request.

And HubSpot’s got such great data, and then he can turn that into an SLO where he can say, “Okay, I expect the submission rate on my forms to be X percent. I expect the completion rate of our inside sales calls to be X percent over 80% of the time.”

And he can run that in an SLO, he can see that like if he changes something, but simple little things, if he changes the colour of the submit button on a form, he can see in real time what the view to submission rate is that's changing, and he can act on that. He can put a little note in the SLO with that time stamp and say, “Hey, I changed the color of this button” and see how that's making an impact. Or, if he looks in HubSpot and see, “Oh, crap, my submission rate has been terrible for the past 36 hours, what's happened?” And he can go into his SLO and say, “Oh, there’s a little note here, I changed something in the UX. I changed something colour wise. I added a question, I removed a question.” And you see direct historical cause for that.

But going back to HubSpot in general, he really respects HubSpot’s approach to they call it the flywheel, which is all about delighting customers and delighting prospects.

And they really do a great job of giving you the tools to actually give value in your marketing and sales and customer service processes. He doesn't know what he’s do without HubSpot right now, he'd probably try and hack something together with Salesforce and Marketo and be more complicated and less easy to get adoption internally. But luckily, he doesn't need to.

Where can listeners find Daniel online?

LinkedIn – Nobl9inc

X – @nobl9inc

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Daniel Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert, Daniel shared, “Nothing is a failure unless you fail to learn from it.” He stated that he’s got a great team that he works with at Nobl9. And some are early in their career, some have been working in marketing for several years, some have advanced degrees, some don't.

And so, he’s been with Nobl9 since January, and one of the things that he wanted to do quickly was make sure that people were comfortable making mistakes and understanding that an action and its outcome is not the end of that process. If you don't learn from it, why it worked, why it didn't, then you've made a mistake. But failure is as important an element in driving success in any business scenario. So, he likes making sure that people know that, and he likes making sure that they feel comfortable, because without being comfortable with failure, how are you going to try anything revolutionary?

Me: True. Thank you so much for sharing, Daniel.

Now, we just like to thank you so much for hopping on this podcast and sharing all of the great insights about Nobl9, the wonderful work that your team is doing as it relates to ensuring that customers are having a more seamless and frictionless experience across these platforms and increases the reliability. And we really appreciate some of the great nuggets that you shared with us as it relates to what is a Service Level Objective versus a Service Level Agreement and a Service Level Indicator, great information to learn, to understand the whole process, because in order to navigate the customer experience, there is really a lot that you have to take into account to ensure that the customer walks away feeling like, yeah, that was that was fun, it was easy, it wasn't hard, and I was able to do it really quickly. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Irina Vatafu has nearly a decade of experience in customer-facing roles, she is deeply passionate about working with people, and dedicated to ensuring every customer feels valued and respected. Currently serving as the Head of Customer Success at Custify, Irina thrives in roles that require effective communication, problem-solving and empathetic engagement.

Her commitment to continuous improvement and staying current with industry trends ensures that her approach remains innovative and impactful. One of her key strengths is creating a collaborative and supportive environment that consistently delivers exceptional experiences and fosters strong customer loyalty. At the heart of her work is a dedication to championing the needs and voices of customers, which continues to inspire and drive her every single day.

Questions

· Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

· You are Head of Customer Success at Custify, could you share with our listeners, what Custify is and what your company does?

· What would you say are maybe two or three attributes or competencies that you and your team need to have on a daily basis in serving these customer success managers so they can serve their own customers?

· Now in terms of exercising empathy, could you share with our listeners maybe a use case where your customer had an issue. So, your customer came to you as the problem solver and you were able to exercise as empathetic engagement to basically try and help them to solve the problem quickly.

· Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you professionally, and even personally.

· Now, Irina, can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes of we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Irina’s Journey

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

Irina stated that's a great start. So, where she was, as mentioned in the beginning, she has nearly a decade of working in customer-facing roles. And her first role was as a support engineer, and now she’s managing the team of Customer Success Managers and support team members. So, she started in first line there, she learned everything, and she was so passionate about working with customers that she always pushed herself to learn more, to offer better experiences, to progress and to make sure everyone is happy with her work and people that she works with are successful. So, yeah, baby steps, she arrived where she is today, and she’s so grateful for that.

About the Custify – What Does Custify Do?

Me: So, you are Head of Customer Success at Custify correct? Could you share with our listeners, what Custify is and what your company does?

Irina shared that they are the CSMs of CSMs, she would say because their platform is a customer success tool. So, their end users, their customer success teams all over the world, they have customers in all countries, and they work with any business that has a SaaS product, so this is what they are doing.

And as mentioned, their users, their customer success managers, so they are dedicated customer success managers that support other customer success managers. So, they have to be a top-notch department in order to help them drive value and be successful with their tool.

Attributes or Competencies Needed Daily to Serve Customer Success Managers

Me: What would you say are maybe two or three attributes or competencies that you and your team need to have on a daily basis in serving these customer success managers so they can serve their own customers?

Irina shared that she thinks the first thing that she has on her mind is they need to be perfect active listeners. So, they really need to listen to their customers need and to understand each business case and to be there as consultants and to make sure that they have success in their own departments, so they can prove value, and they can be their loyal customers for a long time.

Other things that matter of course to have that business understanding. So, not only to actively listen, but to also be flexible and creative to give proper advice and to be able to quickly understand the customer use case in order to guide them towards success.

Of course, you also need to be super organized in order to act like a project manager and help your customers achieve their milestones on time and respect all the agreed deadlines that they established with them in the beginning.

And the last but not least, of course, you need to be a naturally empathetic person because if you don't really care, let's say about customers, they will feel that so you really need to be a people person, and to be able to have the empathy to help them.

Exercising Empathy – Using Empathy in Problem Solving

Me: Now in terms of exercising empathy, could you share with our listeners maybe a use case, you don't need to mention the customers’ name or the company, but maybe a use case where your customer had an issue, because all businesses are created to solve problems. So, your customer came to you as the problem solver, and you were able to exercise as you coin it “Empathetic engagement” to basically try and help them to solve the problem quickly.

Irina shared that she remembers, she has a recent example. It's something that their team really struggled about. They had a situation where one of their customers, the CS lead came to them saying that, “Look, we really need to make it work, because our jobs depend on that. Things are not great for our CS department. So, we really need to move forward and to prove progress to our leadership in order to keep this department working.” And this was the first priority for them because of course, their empathetic triggers were started working, and they were like, “Okay, we have an important role here, we need to help this customer.”

And what they did, they came up with a success plan, they sat together, and they thought about all the top three priorities that the leadership would care about. And they decided that look, these are the main things that they need to focus on in the next weeks. And even if this is not part of their normal flow, they had more meetings, they had more internal brainstorming. So, they did everything they could to help the customer.

And yes, in the end, the customer was really successful. And it's not only that, he would was grateful. But they also have more partnerships and other things that derives from that initiative. So, empathy always matters. And acting like humans when someone needs us and not only looking at the contract value and the service hours included in the subscription, she thinks they could make a difference at some point.

App, Website or Tool that Irina Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Irina shared that she thinks they internally rely a lot on what’s happening on LinkedIn, they are connected with a lot of CS influencers, and they are also following their customers on LinkedIn.

So, they stay connected to the market with what's happening there. And they are up to date with all the webinars, with all the podcasts and everything that is happening there. So, she thinks LinkedIn is their main source of learning, and where they also find other opportunities to learn by subscribing to different newsletters and courses and everything.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Irina

When asked about books that have had an impact, Irina shared that she has a funny story about the book. So, when she joined Custify, almost four years ago, she joined as a CSM and her manager told her that look, you should read this book, it's called Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It and she thinks it's Chris Voss who wrote it. And it's a negotiation book and when he told her to read that book, she was angry because the job description never included negotiation, let's say so she thought, okay, she was tricked, it's actually a sales role. And her manager now advises her to learn some negotiation skills.

But if you read the book, you will realize that you actually need negotiation skills in your day-to-day life. So, it's not about the selling or not selling something, it's really about what we need to do and negotiate for ourselves as human beings, and it makes an impact also in the professional life.

What Irina is Really Excited About Now!

Irina shared that that's a good question. So, she would say that at the beginning of this year, they as a team, they knew that it would be a tough year because of the economical context and everything that is happening in the CS life. So, she and her team decided to keep their minds and hearts open and to be the support that their customers need amid the chaos and instability that is around. So, they sat together and adapted their workflows and prioritized their champions success. So, they had like a redesign all their flows.

And they are amazed to discover that this makes a difference. So, when all the departments work towards the same goals, they empower each other, and they focus primarily on customer success. So, they work closely with product sales, CS support in order to make sure that their customers are happy, this is a great initiative that they started this year. And they observed and they are surprised to see how authenticity and trust, being their team's current focus leads to amazing KPIs and success. So, this is their main focus right now and they are looking forward to see how this year will end.

Where can listeners find Irina online?

LinkedIn - Irina Vatafu

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Irina Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Irina shared that yes, she thinks that's something that helps her in those situations. She’s always saying to herself, “When you don't know what to do, say the truth.” So, it always helped.

Me: So, be honest.

Well, thank you so much, Irina for jumping on this podcast and sharing all of the great insights that you're doing as a Customer Success Manager at Custify and also what your organization does, and the support that you are providing to teams all throughout the world, ensuring that they are able to solve problems and serve your customers in the best possible way. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule and sharing this information with us. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Chris Voss

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Richard Weylman was orphaned at age 6 and he lived in 19 foster homes and attended 11 different schools. Rather than becoming the victim of those circumstances, he overcame them and he has had remarkable business success, including as an award-winning General Sales Manager of Rolls Royce to Head Sales and Marketing for the Robb Report, a Magazine for the Luxury Lifestyle from its inception until its record liquidity event.

A Hall of Fame inducted Keynote Speaker, Richard has also been inducted into the Customer Experience Hall of Fame for his legendary work helping brands engage with their customers and retain them.

He is the author of two international bestsellers, the latest of which, The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace is in seven languages and is also a CEO Reads best seller.

His next book 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life was released on March 12th, and is available for pre-order on Amazon, or your favorite bookstore. Finally, he is a Horatio-Alger nominee for his philanthropic work on behalf of orphans and widows.

Questions

· Could you share with us in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

· This new book that was released almost 3 months now it's been out the book, 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life. Could you share with our listeners maybe 3 overarching themes that the book covers? And who is the book really geared towards?

· In your research, when you were talking to your different clients about the different ways that you can acquire and keep clients, did you find that there were some industries that were thriving with these four things that you've mentioned, based on the research and others?

· Now Richard, could you share with our audience maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

· Now, Richard, could you share with our audience what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights

Richard’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests a little opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. Could you share with us in your own words a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Richard shared that the key thing is when all of this stuff, he was an orphan, as mentioned in his introduction, and that was very kind. But he was orphaned, and he lived in 18 foster homes, went to 11 different schools. So, you learn just from life experiences, how to understand, how to adapt, how to connect, in his case with the people with whom he was living. But he thinks we all go through this similar journey in life, you learn how to connect or not with individuals. So, that really became the premise for all of his speaking and consulting.

And they are a research-based consulting firm, they do a great deal of research about what the consumers’ looking for, why they're looking for it. And most importantly, how salespeople, marketing people, business people can connect with the expectations, let's use that word, expectations of the consumer. So, that's what prompted his first book, Opening Closed Doors, Keys to Reaching Hard to Reach People then The Power of Why: Breaking Out in a Competitive Marketplace, which was mentioned. And those are in seven languages.

And now his recent book, which really manifested itself after about October he would say in 2019, in the fall of 2019, it occurred to him that people were no longer talking about service anymore. They talked to people in their consulting projects, how would you rate the service of this company, and people didn't want to talk, they would say, “Well, the service is good. But let me tell you about the experience I had.” And it dawned on him that what people are really focused on good service is a minimum expectation today, what people really want, really want is an elevated experience, somebody who's thoughtful and kind and caring, and empathetic. So, that became the premise for the current book that's just come out, which is number one on Amazon hot new release. So, is that helpful?

About the Book – Who the Book is Geared Towards and it’s Overarching Themes – 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life

Me: So, you have this new book that was released almost 3 months now it's been out. And you said it's number one on the hot new list for Amazon. Could you share with our listeners maybe 3 overarching themes that the book covers? And who is the book really geared towards?

Richard stated that that’s it's a great question. The book itself is really geared, we'll start there, who reads this book? Anybody in sales, marketing, service, leadership, he’s had over 2000 individuals that he knows of that are in either leadership roles or top advisors, top salespeople who have sent him emails because of the epiphany moments they've had in it and the reason he thinks that so many different types of people, it doesn't matter what industry, he’s got people in real estate, he got a bunch of emails this morning, people in real estate, attorney, doctors, he had a dentist sent him an email, hairdresser.

So, it really doesn't matter what industry you're in. What really matters is do you want to acquire and keep your clients for life? And he guesses the obvious question is, “Why wouldn't you want to keep your clients for life, given the cost of acquisition?”

So, when he wrote the book, he didn't write it for any industry, he wrote it for individuals that really did want to, shall we say, connect with their customers or their clients in such a way that those individuals would never buy from anyone else in their space. And it really is the premise is to understand the lifetime value of a customer or a client.

And a lot of business owners, and certainly salespeople, we don't often think about the lifetime value, we sell somebody something and we see it as a transaction. When you sell someone, it's not the end of something, it's the beginning of what could very well become a lifetime relationship with that individual every single time they need something that you may offer, they can reach out to you, and they become a customer for life. So, the question is, how do you do it? So, that's where the premise of the book came from and who he wrote it for.

So, one of the overarching themes in interviewing literally hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of consumers. And the number really reaches over 1000 in all of their consulting work over the years from 2019 until now when he wrote the book, he would ask people, “What is something someone can do, or a company can do to get your attention and keep you as a client for life?”

And they would tell him that, and they began to write those down. And that's how he came up with the 100 Proven Ways. He didn't set out to do 100 proven ways, but what they found out is today, there are four things people look for, these are the overarching themes. They want an individual and company that is thoughtful. In other words, they'll go the extra mile, do the extra thing, take the extra moment.

Secondly, someone that's kind, will think about things from their perspective and do things that demonstrate kindness to them as an individual.

Thirdly, someone that cares, cares enough to find out what they really want, what they really need, and what is the right, shall we say, item for them? The right haircut, the right prescription, the right legal advice, the right advisory advice, whatever, they want somebody that cares about them.

And last but not least, they want someone in a company that's empathetic, someone that shall we say, demonstrates that even though I'm saying it's unique to me, my problem, and you've heard it 100 times as a salesperson, you know it's not unique. For me, it is unique. So, I appreciate your willingness to be empathetic. So, four things, thoughtful, caring, kind, empathetic, those are the overarching things.

Industry Insights and Best Practices Based on Research from Book

Me: So, they need to be thoughtful, they need to be kind, they need to be caring, and they need to be empathetic. In your research, when you were talking to your different clients about the different ways that you can acquire and keep clients, did you find that there were some industries that were thriving with these four things that you've mentioned, based on the research and others?

Richard stated that it's really interesting Yanique mentioned that, and it's not so much industries, it's companies within that are doing well. Most industries are still in the transaction mode. Go to a restaurant, it's a transaction. If you order something online, it becomes a transaction. And as a result of that, people are looking for other options.

So, what's happened is a few companies have really jumped to the front. And he'll just give you a couple of example, in the United States; they have a company called Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A is a chicken sandwich is basically what it is. He knew the founder, his name is Truett Cathy and they did a lot of traveling together, meetings together. And he would often say him, “Richard, now remember, we got to remind the crew here that we're not in a chicken business, we're in a people business.”

So, they're closed every Sunday. So, that means if you want to put a characterize that differently, they're closed 52 days a year, that would mean they closed November 10 and re-open January 1, that's 52 days.

They have the highest revenue per store than any other food franchise in the world. And they're closed from November 10 to January 1, and they're not open 24/7.

So, the question is, why is that happening?

Yes, it's a great chicken sandwich granted, but you get a chicken sandwich pretty much anywhere.

What they really are known for is please, thank you, and my pleasure.

And people sit in long lines at their drive thru, which are two and three lanes wide because people there say please, thank you, my pleasure. That's one brilliant example of how they do it.

Give me another example, in the food industry, this company, for pets, and that company is called Chewy.

Now, how has Chewy done, this young kid had started he said, when manufacturers and sellers of food products and other products for pets, they need to realize pets are part of the family.

So, they need to take a family orientation and be kind, thoughtful, caring and empathetic with their customers about their pets.

Well, they've done that, and just a quick, he (Richard) was speaking, he speaks all over the world. He’s spoken at the Pegasus Hotel there in Jamaica many times for various conferences, and he will tell you that he was speaking at a conference in Nashville, Tennessee, he told the story of a woman who had posted on LinkedIn.

She posted that she had a standing order with Chewy, this was in November when he was speaking, and her order for the cat food had just arrived.

She posted on LinkedIn, “The cat food came, I called Chewy and said my cat has died. And I want to return the cat food. They said absolutely not; donate it to the local shelter. And we'll give you 100% credit on the bill.” The audience goes wow. And he said but that's only half the story. The other half that she wrote about was 3 days later, she got a bouquet of flowers, and a condolence card from the Customer Service Rep at Chewy.

At that instant, this woman stood up in the middle of this ballroom of about 1000 people and scream, “That was my cat.” and held up her phone. She said, “I posted that this morning. I've already got 147 likes.”

And at that moment, he just stopped and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, what does this tell us about Chewy?”

And the whole room starts chanting, “We're switching to Chewy.”

So, there's a message here. And it's the undercurrent of what's going on in business around the world. And it's not just in the US. He'll be in France again in October speaking in a large conference there; he goes to Asia a lot.

And everywhere you go, people are really interested in doing business with individuals that are kind, thoughtful, caring, and empathetic and once he realized that, and then people began to share these ideas, if you would do this, I would be a loyal customer, he just thought it'd be helpful to put that out in the marketplace for anybody, regardless the kind of business you're in. Because it makes a big difference in your life. He heard from a guy that sells hot water heaters to hotels, and he said this book changed his business completely. So, that's the difference.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Richard

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Richard shared that one particularly, there's a series, his name is Bob Burg. And he's written a book, the original book, he was a co-author of a book called The Go-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea that is international bestseller, sold a couple million copies, what a fabulous book for anybody to read. And that would be one he'd recommend.

And another one that he has co-authored with a guy named Jeff West is called Streetwise to Saleswise: Become ObjectionProofÔ and Beat the Sales Blues, it's really a great book, it just came out he would say a few months ago. And it's really a story, they write it in a story format and what he means by that is that it's like you're reading a novel, well, it is a novel. But as you're reading the novel, it's written in a way that allows you to understand various things you can do in shall we say in business to expand your influence, to make a significant impact and to really make a difference.

Now, The Go-Giver book that he wrote, he's done a series Go-Giver Leader, The Go-Giver Sell More, and those are really dynamite books. But The Go-Giver, the original book is just oh my God, what a great book and they've sold millions of copies all over the world.

And then the other one is Streetwise to Saleswise, another great book by he and a guy named Jeff West. That book has been out maybe a couple of months, but it's called Streetwise to Saleswise, and it's really written around the city of New Orleans and sales individual that went out there to shall we say, be in the sales business, it’s a fabulous read, particularly people like novels that have read really great nuggets on how to be a better salesperson.

What Richard is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Richard shared that the book is doing extraordinarily well, he’s been very grateful for that. It's been selected as the lead book for the London Book Fair and the Frankfurt Book Fair this year, which is a blessing. But what he’s most excited about is he’s getting in front of more and more audiences, he’s in the Keynote Speaker Hall of Fame, and the Customer Experience Hall of Fame, and all of that is wonderful recognition. But what is really wonderful is when he has the privilege of being on the platform, and being able to share with audiences’ ways in which they can elevate their client or customer experience, and stand apart from the competition, and that's what he’s most excited about. He’s got a lot of speaking engagements coming up this fall, and in places all over the world. And just to be a blessing to those people and to bring them some thoughts that perhaps they've never had, or to have reinforced that which is that they're doing so they really feel as though, “You know what, I'm on the right track, and we're going to continue to win more business.” So, those are the things that excites him.

Where can listeners find Richard online?

LinkedIn - Richard Weylman

Website - http://www.richardweylman.com/

Richard shared that on the website, there you can download a chapter of his book free, you can read it, you can also order the book there of course. There's also, he does a great deal of media, he guesses there's probably 25 or 30, ABC, CBS, NBC and, Fox, both TV and radio segments there, you just click on media and you can listen and watch those on various topics.

And then also under videos, you'll see a link there, you can go to learn services. And he puts up about he’s going to guess 25 little video vignettes are a couple of minutes long that you can enjoy, they're all free, just wanted to plant those in your life. You can sign up for his performance tip that's the down at the bottom of every page but every 10 days he sends out researcher tips to about 20,000 people or subscribers, so it'd be wonderful if you subscribed.

So, you want to go to www.richardweylman.com if you want him to speak at your conference, or at your upcoming meeting, whatever the case might be, there's a form there, fill it out, he responds to those. He actually gets those himself, he’d be happy to partner with you, and find a way that they can bring some additional learning to your organization, to your people so that they can elevate their business performance as well.

Me: All right. Thank you so much for sharing, Richard. We just want to extend our deepest gratitude to for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast. You shared some great insights and nuggets as it relates to some of the keys that you need to focus on in order to acquire and keep your clients for life especially based on the research that you did. And we love the examples that you gave, they were definitely relevant and something that I believe will motivate the audience to definitely go out and get a copy of your book, whether it be in soft or hard copy so they can try and elevate their own client experiences. So, thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The G0-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea by Bob Burg

• Streetwise to Saleswise: Become ObjectionProofÔ and Beat the Sales Blues by Jeff West

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Debbie Miglaw is Head of Digital Solutioning & Business Development at Broadridge. She and her team of digital sales specialists, solutions architects and business analysts are responsible for consulting with clients to define the digital solutions that support their digital transformation and customer experience goals.

The team of experts work with clients’ business and technology stakeholders to map the solution from ideation to implementation. Debbie has extensive experience in helping clients with their print-to-digital transformations. Prior to her current role, Debbie was responsible for designing and executing the product vision and strategy of Broadridge Customer Communications omni-channel solutions.

Questions

· Now, could you start off by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Could you share with us a little bit about the results from that survey, maybe some key things that came out of that survey?

· In the customer experience space, what do you think are some trends that will continue? And maybe even some new ones that you're hoping to see evolve? Or even get more prominent?

· What's the one online resource tool website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners one or two books that you've read, could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago. But it has had a profound impact on you whether personally or professionally.

· Now, could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· What would you say as a leader is maybe two or three things that you believe is critical to kind of raise a team members competencies up, especially as it relates to their behaviors in developing leadership skills?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derail or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Debbie’s Journey

Me: Now, could you start off by sharing with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Debbie shared that she’s been here quite a while; it started believe it or not 26 years ago, within the Broadridge space. She started with the company it was considered USCS International, which was acquired by DST Systems. And in 2016, Broadridge acquired the DST output business. And as part of that, they really brought together the best of the customer communications business across all vertical markets. And along that journey, she spent the majority of her time heading up and leading the product organization to deliver solutions across print and digital services and she continue on in that in the last 3 years, really help focus on as you said in the intro the solutioning and helping their clients find the right solution to solve for their business objectives.

Key Insights from the Recent Survey: Understanding Trends and Findings

Me: Perfect. Now, one of the reasons why we were very intrigued to interview I believe, when we started this conversation, it would have been Matt Swain was about the report that was shared with me when the interview request was presented on your 6th Annual CX and Communications Consumer Insight survey. I understand the survey covers the overall consumer sentiment around CX within different industries. So, could you share with us a little bit about the results from that survey, maybe some key things that came out of that survey?

Debbie shared that they're very excited with the 2024 results that they've published out in the market. And one of the most prominent things that they found in the data is really that in the last 5 years, you could say 6, as most people know, 2020, they didn't do the survey. But over that time span, the number of consumers, the percentage that are dissatisfied with customer experience and believe companies need to improve that experience has doubled.

So, it's gone from 35%, having a sentiment that is saying needs to be better to 70%. So, it's pretty significant in terms of the fact that the expectations continue to grow, but the companies aren't necessarily achieving it at the same rate. So, that's probably the first one that she would say stands out a lot.

They also still see some things around personalization. So, when they look at the information, they find that 90% of consumers think that it's important for companies to honour their preferred communication method and a personalized communication. But only 31% think the companies are doing a good job of honouring those preferences and making it a personal experience.

And then the other third point, she would say is really around data security. That's continued to be there, she’s not sure that will ever change in her personal opinion, however, that consumers continue to crave that better experience but more than half, 54% are willing to share personal data if it's going to improve experience, so, that's really telling.

And then she'll say the last point, she would say is that they did ask this year about AI because it's definitely out there in market. And one of the things that they found is varying feedback, of course, but Gen Z out of all the groups are particularly optimistic about the use of AI and 76% are actually saying that they have used it in some fashion and 46% say it's actually improved their experience. So, it's just a little tidbit maybe not the top three kernels that she previously mentioned, but something for us to keep an eye on.

Me: Very fascinating. So, the study was done across different industries, right? Could you share with our listeners, like maybe the sample size? And what specific industries were covered when the survey was done?

Debbie shared that this was a North American survey, it's about 75% in the US and 25% in Canada, there were 4010 residents that were 18 years and older that was doing this study, it was executed in November of 2023. So, that's the high-level background.

And then they do actually ask about the types of industries that are providing the best experience and around the communications, and so, those industries vary from banking, credit card, utilities, health care, health insurance, telecommunications, investments, retirement, insurance loans, and then you could say, like, maybe an other for those that don't have answers, but they typically hit those. She thinks it's 10 particular industry standouts in their report.

Me: Perfect. So very, very good insights, especially for those of our listeners that are in the United States and Canada, we do have a lot of listeners that are outside of that region. But it's still fascinating information to keep into consideration, because probably the same execution could be done for your region if you're listening to this, and you're not in North America, you could possibly do something similar to what Broadridge did. Because the industries exist in these regions, they just probably don't have the data to support it. So, thank you so much for sharing, Debbie.

Emerging Trends in Customer Experience

Me: Now, Debbie, based on your own experience in the whole customer experience space, because you have a lot of background in that, especially working with Broadridge and your previous experience. And of course, seeing that were basically halfway through 2024. What do you think are some trends that will continue? And maybe even some new ones that you're hoping to see evolve? Or even get more prominent?

Debbie stated that that's a good question. She would say that trends that they see is really a combination of how do we accelerate that digital transformation and improve the customer experience, and also lower costs and so especially more so probably in the US than some of the other areas like Canada and such, the postal rates increased dramatically. So, top of mind for companies, is to actually reduce that paper and try to get to digital quickly. But also, how do you do that? So, paperless adoption strategies is going to continue to be one of the top initiatives and trends that we see that will not change she doesn't think anytime soon.

But she thinks really what's happening is companies out there in the industries, they're really looking to figure out how do they best do it? We sometimes talk about especially you've talked to Matt Swain in the past, and it's the carrot versus the stick often comes up. And they're seeing a mixture of trial and error in there, especially with the stick.

They're really looking at how do people actually accelerate that customer experience in a way that potentially doesn't have that heavy IT cost to do it. So, she thinks they're starting to also see a trend around the make, buy, build kind of conversation. Do you build, do buy, do you partner? And so, seeing a lot of that in order to actually accelerate that transformation.

App, Website or Tool that Debbie Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Debbie stated that that's interesting, for her, she uses so many, their company probably from a perspective of she'll say, their research uses a variety of different tools. They all use LinkedIn as one source. But more than anything, when they're looking at customer experience, they look at things like UserTesting, as a way to gauge what the consumer sentiment is against the communication experience. So, that's definitely one, especially in the customer experience, and communications and consulting area. So, they definitely rely on that. And believe it or not, they like to just go out and essentially see and experience the experiences for themselves. So, meaning they might actually go to a lot of companies that they're either talking to as prospective clients or existing clients to get a sense of competitive landscape of what the best customer experiences are. So, a lot of times that personal research is the best tool that we have.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Debbie

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Debbie stated that that's a good question and shared that she now can't remember the name of the book, unfortunately. But it was quite some time ago, there was a book that was really around innovation and the way we think, and what innovation means. And a lot of it had to do with the small startup business and it really made her think how you can actually have that startup mentality and how you apply it into a larger corporation. And she thinks that's one thing she has the privilege of working with the team that does a lot of that innovation for Broadridge in terms of the innovation lab and R & D. And so, their Chief Digital Officer, Rob Krugman spends a lot of time going out and exploring these different opportunities. And so, she thinks the creation of that particular unit within their company in the last couple of years has really helped kind of expand the opportunities that they might be able to bring to market.

What Debbie is Really Excited About Now!

Debbie stated that that’s good question. She thinks right now, their focus short term happens to be the end of their fiscal year. So, they have a very aggressive sales goals from that perspective, it's there. Ironically, when she talks about end of year, the personal side of that is it's the end of the school year going on right now so they're in the week of things like her daughter's 8th grade graduation, kind of those activities. So, it's kind of interesting that the timing of their fiscal is also the end of school year activities. And so, they're really aligned on staying focused, getting through all the activities that are there. So, very much a streamlined set of activities, both personally and professionally.

Fostering Leadership Competencies: Strategies for Elevating Team Members’ Skills and Behaviors

Me: Now, you do a lot of work as a leader, Debbie in your organization. And I imagine, as a leader, you have to kind of hone and develop other people's skills so that they can become truly functional in their role, but not necessarily from a technical perspective, but also from a development perspective, meaning they have the ability to motivate and inspire others. What would you say as a leader is maybe two or three things that you believe is critical to kind of raise a team members competencies up, especially as it relates to their behaviors in developing leadership skills?

Debbie shared that for me, a lot of it is empowering the employees to essentially try and do and a lot of times, that's what creates the growth. So, a lot of the approach that she’s taken as a leader over the years is, after we've done sort of, like you said that a technical type education and product knowledge, some of those kinds of things the company is then they do a lot of, say, ride along. So, ride along with a meeting to listen, hear how it's actually executed, especially if it's like a sales or product related meeting. And then giving the opportunity for that person to actually lead where you sort of follow on. So, you're there as a safety net to help. And she thinks that really empowers people to let them be the experts when a leader or someone that might have more experiences on the phone. Because a lot of times what happens is people naturally defer to the person with more knowledge. So, she’s found that that's a really good way to raise that confidence, and give them experience.

And again, a little bit of a safety net to get there and typically, those folks that have the aptitude, really just run with it. And before you know it, basically they're running it on their own, and they don't necessarily need you there. So, that's a great thing to see as a leader.

And she thinks the other is really kind of coaching around the communication aspect, and that really varies. She knows for like in her product role a lot of times in the past it was very technical you could say right, the accuracy what you're saying, and then trying to balance that when the right opportunity is there.

Do you need to be a little bit more optimistic and sales oriented?

Do you need to be more practical, here's what's real?

And guiding people through that process of understanding the situation that you're in, in order to convey the right message right? And it's not about accuracy of the information, it's just more about that influential speak when it's appropriate, when it's not type situation. So, those are a couple of things that really stand out for her.

Where can listeners find Debbie online?

LinkedIn – Debbie Miglaw

Website – www.broadridge.com

LinkedIn – Matt Swain

2023 CX and Communications Consumer Insights Survey

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Debbie Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Debbie shared that she does, her quote is “The best is yet to come.”

Me: Do you like to elaborate a little bit on it for our listeners?

Debbie shared that for her view, it's tough when you're in it, and a lot of times we forget to look ahead and how we're going to get past a difficult situation. And so, she thinks if we just have that little bit more optimistic view that on the other side, things will get better. And so, it's kind of funny, it comes up in other panels that she’s spoken on in person. And she always say it's also a song, so it's kind of you can have it as a motto, a song, a saying, but the best is yet to come. So, whether it is in your personal life or in work, she could say the best customer experience is yet to come, right. The best for her daughter's future is yet to come. So, kind of looking at it from that angle.

Me: Very nice. Alright. Well, Debbie, thank you so much for jumping on this podcast and sharing the great insights that you did about the report that Broadridge did, as well as in your own function and capacity in terms of leading your team and some recommended trends that you believe will continue as well as evolve in the space of customer experience. The conversation was extremely insightful, and I'm sure our listeners gleaned quite a lot of information from our conversation, so that thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Joel Passen is a proven technology entrepreneur and leader with 20+ years of success creating value and driving measurable results at the intersections of sales, business development, product strategy, operations and customer experience.

Before co-founding Sturdy, a next-gen customer experience solution that helps companies improve customer satisfaction. Joel co-founded Newton Software, a B2B SaaS company headquartered in San Francisco that was acquired by Paycor (2016). Prior to that, Joel co-founded Gravity Technologies, Inc., a company that owned and operated businesses in the talent acquisition industry, including the first recruitment processing outsourcing company focused on technical talent.

Questions

· So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Could you share maybe 1 to 3 top I would say areas that you believe as an organization, especially in your industry that you believe it's important for you to focus on or it drives your success in the space of ensuring that you're delivering a great or a fantastic customer experience.

· If you want to maybe debunk maybe one of the biggest customer service myths that you see organizations still using as a driver in their business, when really and truly that shouldn't be anything that they should be guided by, what would you say that is based on your observation and experience?

· Now, Joel, can you also share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you've read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great and profound impact on you. And that can be either professional or even a personal impact.

· Now, Joel, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Could you tell us a little bit about your organization Sturdy, exactly what it does. And if they wanted to connect with you, or Sturdy, how they could find you online?

· Now, Joel, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to give our guests a chance to share with our listeners, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derail or you get off track or you get knock down and the quote kind of helps to just motivate you to get back up and to push forward and to complete whatever would have knocked you down. Do you have one those?

Highlights

Joel’s Journey

Me: So, we like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Joel shared that he appreciates this question. So, he’s always a commercial leader, meaning he’s always had responsibility not only for net new growth, but also for responsibility for customers. And where he is today, in terms of having started a company that focuses on using AI to ultimately improve the customer experience by deeper listening to customers, he thinks for him, the journey was more of like, and this may sound a little off putting to some, but he was kind of like a frustrated engineer to a certain extent. He was a frustrated commercial person in many ways. So, he thinks the desire to sort of solve a problem that he had as an operator, a commercial operator for two decades, has led him to where he is today, which is trying to solve that problem at scale.

Areas Organizations Needs to Focus On to Ensure the Delivery of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Me: So, could you share maybe 1 to 3 top I would say areas that you believe as an organization, especially in your industry that you believe it's important for you to focus on or it drives your success in the space of ensuring that you're delivering a great or a fantastic customer experience.

Joel shared that he likes everything in 3, so absolutely. But the first thing is, in many ways he thinks that removing the abstraction layers between our customers, and the level of leadership within organizations that can actually do something about the issues that we're hearing is really important. And what he means by that is, he thinks for the last 10 or 15 years, we've created not only technology driven abstraction layers like chatbots, and automated knowledge base stuff and it's all sort of addressing what he would think of as a symptom, but not necessarily is the root cause of perhaps customer frustrations in terms of customer experience.

So, an example would be like if we have to continue to build these really acute knowledge bases and what we're addressing is constant customer confusion, for example, wouldn't it make more sense to take the data that we're deriving about what's confusing the customer, take it back to our product teams or services organizations, and address the root cause. So, number one is, he thinks we've got too many abstraction layers between us and our customers.

Like number two is, the people that are responsible for customer experience, and ultimately, you're holding the bag and oftentimes, perhaps even the number for the board can only solve about 30% of the problems that we face around customer experience or challenges we face about customer experience within the organization. So, for example, going back to like a product or service, which ultimately, we deliver to an end user. If he’s the customer experience person, and he’s holding the bag for that number, whether it's some sort of arbitrary number like not arbitrary, but he guesses arbitrary, like NPS or CSAT, like something that we're being measured on, but even more importantly, a revenue number. He has to rely on his other teammates to ultimately contribute to the success of that experience. And that's a big challenge.

And he thinks the third one is kind of an expansion on that topic, which is, he thinks that we've lost sight as organizations at large that everybody's job is customer experience, providing the best customer experiences we can, whether it's the billing team that designs processes around auto renewing, and billing customers, to the product teams that are delivering product to the services teams that are delivering services, to the sales teams that are an account management teams that are being truthful and ethical and honest about what we actually can provide in terms of value.

Debunking Customer Service Myths

Me: Now, in listening to you, I also wanted to know if you could share with us, you've been in the whole customer experience space, and you're noted as a top customer experience voice on LinkedIn. If you want to maybe debunk maybe one of the biggest customer service myths that you see organizations still using as a driver in their business, when really and truly that shouldn't be anything that they should be guided by, what would you say that is based on your observation and experience?

Joel stated that it's going make me unpopular. He’s going to lose the popularity contest on this answer, and he’s going to treat this less like a cable news show, so, he’s not going to swear. But if you do follow him on LinkedIn, it's not just to be incendiary. But he really thinks health scores of customers are one of the most overused, underpowered abstraction layers that people use, he thinks they're garbage. And he’s speaking from experience, not because he has something against them, or the companies that help us build them or anything like that. It's because too many times, he’s been in executive leadership team meetings, and he takes the board slides in, and he’s got all these green lights on maybe with their top revenue accounts, for example. And he goes back to team meetings two weeks later to go back through the account reviews, and so many times he’s gone from green to gone with no leading indicators along the way that has ever given him any kind of indication that they were in trouble. So, that's his answer. And some people are in love with health scores, and they spent a lot of time building them, and quite frankly, he thinks they're full of telemetry data and opinions that just don't yield anything that he can use as an executive leader.

App, Website or Tool that Joel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Joel shared GPT 4. As an early-stage entrepreneur, he feels like he spends a lot of time sifting through data, and crafting messaging. But to make a finer point, like, for example, he has a client, they're called Hawke Media, they're one of the largest independent ad agencies in the United States. And his outbound sales team, let's say, wants to find more companies that are similar to these folks. And there are hundreds of these types of agencies in the United States, not of the same magnitude of Hawke Media, but similar. And when you go into LinkedIn Sales Navigator, and all these other Apollo or ZoomInfo. With all the metadata tags that are in the systems, it's really hard to get a filtered list, for example.

So, last night, he was watching a hockey game, and he typed a simple query into GPT 4 and said, “Give me 300 companies that look and feel like this particular company that are based in the United States and then put their name in column A of a CSV and send it to me,” and it did it and it's super accurate. And it's that kind of stuff that it's just mind blowing. Some of the things you can do with it. So, GPT 4, probably for him, can't live without it.

Me: Amazing. It's fascinating when I heard the prompt that you just gave it now. It's very important that what you put in is what you get out almost like the quality of the question you asked determines the quality of the response that you get back. So, the fact that you are so specific in terms of what you were looking for, the teams, the column that you wanted it in, the fact that you wanted it to be for a specific geographic location, and not just to the world, and the fact that it gave you back that information, so specifically, the prompt that you put into it is so critical to the output that it gives you.

Joel stated that that's a good point, not to scratch his back at all. But he would tell people start with being ultra specific, if you haven't leaned into GPT.

First of all, it's worth the 20 bucks a month for GPT 4. It's really powerful and it can produce graphs and charts and statistical things you can enter, for example, he was working on some like a VC deck the other day for a friend of his, not for his company. But he was having a trouble with like, processing the information from his total addressable market into like a graphical form. Like he's not a designer, he's a spreadsheet person.

And so, he took his spreadsheet, uploaded it to his version of GPT 4 in Azure, so it's privatized without any kind of PII in it, he paid 20 bucks a month for it. And it spit out a graphical representation that with a little bit of tweaking and the coloring could be used in a deck, it's really great. So, there's just some really crazy things you can do with it. But start with being more specific and dial it back, rather than starting with broad requests and commands, because then you're going to get frustrated.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Joel

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Joel stated that he’s going to reveal that his dad is an Industrial Psychologist, PhD in Industrial Psychology. And he's written a bunch of papers on emotional intelligence, EQ and EI. And so, he’s kind of a big fan of Dan Pink, or Daniel Pink. They are business books, so they might be a little cliche for some people. But in 2005, he wrote a book called A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future, Right Brain. It's kind of like the why right brain thinkers are the future. And he thinks there's a lot of interesting things in there that are pretty applicable today. Despite his little claim of using GPT, which might be more of a left brained example, he’s probably a stronger right brained person with communication skills, specifically, rather than somebody that's going to put their head in a spreadsheet all day. And he thinks there's some really telling things and some really interesting things that people could use, both earlier in their career and even later in their career with the Daniel Pink book.

And then he thought one of the other books that he read recently, when he thought about this was “The Billion Dollar Loser : The Epic Rise and Spectacular Fall of Adam Neumann and WeWork”, written by Reeves Wiedeman, it's the Adam Neumann story about work, he doesn't know, if Yanique have read that. It's actually kind of a fiery read, like, it's a cool book. But he thinks for him, the story was really interesting, if you're interested in business, but it also is a really stark reminder that humility is really important in business, being honest, and being humble is a marathon play, but it's also the right play, it'll get you to the finish line. So, he thought that was a good reminder for him and anyone else that is in business and thinking about their own sort of virtue.

What Joel is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Joel shared that he’s really excited about for me, he works at a company that builds applied AI products and essentially helping businesses listen to their customers more carefully, and actively for that matter.

And he thinks what he’s most excited about is sort of the evolution of AI in an ethical way. So, one of the things if you read any of the business reports from the industry analysts and in the industry consulting firms, the Beans, you read any of the stuff from the Harvard Business Review, fairly objective sources, people are really scared about using AI in their businesses specifically, let alone personally, but he’s thinking about it in a business light.

And he thinks what's starting to happen is that the hype is dying down a little bit and we're starting to see a more practical light in the application of AI where it's not so risky, and that it is truly not going to replace everybody's jobs, it's going to help us sift through larger and larger datasets together, so we can get to the root of very specific problems and solve for the root, going back to him at the top of the show when he talked about abstraction layer. So, for him, he’s really excited about that, more and more companies are adopting AI and doing so in an ethical, responsible, privacy conscious way. And the wild, wild west is starting to fade into the background as quickly as it grew, and he thinks that's exciting to him, and he knows that sounds kind of nerdy, but that for him is progress.

About Joel’s Organization Sturdy and How Can Listeners Find Joel Online

Joel shared that Sturdy is very easy to find, he'll start there, but it's sturdy.ai. And he thinks for the relevancy of your listeners and our listeners today is, their our thesis was that ultimately, the customer experiences is really the responsibility of every team. Again, he mentioned operations services, product sales, marketing, leadership, everybody's responsible for customer satisfaction and customer experience. And ultimately, that leads to everybody being in charge of revenue and retention. And what they've realized over the years as being operators of businesses is that 75% of customers expect businesses to use some sort of technology to better their experiences, like the time is now yet we have all these silos in our business.

So, what their business does, what Sturdy does is plugs into all of your data hubs where you're collecting communications from your customers, those day-to-day interactions, those really rich meaningful, those emails, the tickets, the calls transcripts, even unstructured tests like text like surveys, they take all of that information in, privatize it. And they run language models on it to help find topics and trends to help improve the customer experience. And then make agents to deliver this data to the teams and the people and the systems that need it the most. So, that's basically what they do. And they find that the outcomes are their customers are improving their NPS and CSAT scores almost immediately, because they're more actively listening to their customers. But they're also seeing pretty strong lifts in customer retention and revenue as well. So, both expansion and retention revenue.

And he’s easy to find, personally, Joel Passen as mentioned, he talks a lot about customer experience and satisfaction on LinkedIn. And you can find him on LinkedIn, he’s pretty active there. And otherwise, he just joel@sturdy.ai.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Joel Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Joel shared that he’s going to disappoint people, because this isn't like super profound. But he tells his kids this too and his dad used to tell him this like, “Every day is like the first day of school, you can reinvent yourself.” The ability for humans to reinvent themselves is surreal, it's crazy. And if he’s having a bad day, or he’s down or he’s stuck, he literally thinks about the next day and say, tomorrow's my day, I can be whoever I want, I can solve whatever I want. He shared that he sounds like that guy on Saturday Night Live, Stuart Smalley. But reinventing, every day is an opportunity to reinvent yourself. And he thinks that's what keeps him going and he truly believes that even if you had a bad day or a bad interaction with your family or your team or what have you, tomorrow's a new day.

Me: Great. Thank you so much for sharing, Joel.

Thank you so much for hopping on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to customer experience and debunking the myths in customer experience that a lot of organizations are still driven by. Also talking about your organization Sturdy and just where you see artificial intelligence going and how the adaptation is being taken more in a practical role now as all the fanfare and excitement is dying down and people are really seeing how they can integrate it in a very practical and useful way not just to eliminate human interaction but to add to the value that they are using the technology to enhance the quality of the experience that the customer is having. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future by Daniel Pink

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Alan Williams is the founder of SERVICEBRAND GLOBAL and advises business leaders internationally to deliver value driven service.

Dave Stubberfield is the director of Carter Consultancy and specializes in enabling cultural transformation to help businesses achieve greatness. They are the authors of Supercharging the Customer Experience: How Organizational Alignment Drives Performance.

Questions

· We always like to ask our guests if they could share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So basically, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

· Now, the both of you teamed up together and wrote this awesome book Supercharging the Customer Experience. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about the book, maybe two or three overarching themes that the book focuses on and who is the book geared towards?

· What are maybe two or three behaviors that you believe is critical for customer success in a business both from an employee perspective and from the leadership perspective.

· So, could you share maybe just some insight for us on what you believe is the future of AI as best as you can, because AI does cover a lot of stuff. But what do you believe is the future of AI? And how will that impact human interaction?

· So, can you also share, and each of you can give me your answer to this particular question. What's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· If you could share with me maybe a book that you read recently, or even a very long time ago, but it has still had a very great impact on you, whether from a professional capacity or even a personal development capacity.

· Now, can you also share with us what's the one thing that is going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we close off the episode, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that in times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Alan and Dave’s Journey

Me: We always like to ask our guests if they could share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So basically, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he started off in commercial hospitality management. So, he remembered being at school thinking, he wants to go to university, but he wants to do a degree that's going to help him get a job.

And he really didn't like the idea of what he at that time considered to be really boring businesses like banking, where you're sat in an office all day. And he was lucky enough to get a holiday job in a hotel, and he thought that's it, exciting, looking after people, fun.

So, that was the beginning. And then he moved somewhat later in his career into workplace management. So you might know it as facilities management, so all of the services in workplaces offices, and he referred to them those offices actually, as they're really hotels with desks instead of beds, that's the only difference. And then he set up SERVICEBRAND GLOBAL in 2005, and he’s been helping progressive leaders in organizations around the world since then, using what he learned in the hospitality sector.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that for him, he guesses similar to a degree. So, he was just about leaving school and the careers advisor said, you've got the potential to go to university, but he didn't really know what for. So, he decided against it and tried the apprenticeship route in the corporate space, which he loved, and a lot of customer facing roles. Then there was an initiative called Lean, where he became kind of a Six Sigma qualified individual. And then it just kind of spiraled into attaching customer experience to the continuous improvement framework, really. And how changes adapt in organizations. And then, 2020 set up Carter Consultancy, and he hasn't looked back since. So yeah, he loves what he does.

About Alan and Dave’s Book – Supercharging the Customer Experience and Three Overarching Themes the Book Focuses On

Me: All right, thank you so much, gentleman. Now, the both of you teamed up together and wrote this awesome book Supercharging the Customer Experience. Can you share with our listeners and either of you can answer this question, a little bit about the book, maybe two or three overarching themes that the book focuses on and who is the book geared towards?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he’s known Alan for a few years now. But it just so happens that they were interested in creating a customer experience development programme for the BQF, The British Quality Foundation. And the President kind of joined them together and said, “Look, you're both trying to achieve the same things.” So very, very quickly, during their initial meeting, they realized that they are very aligned in how they think and what they wanted to achieve. And through the development of that programme, and Alan out of the blue turns and he said to Dave, “This has got the makings of a great book. Do you want to write one?” And like a rabbit in the headlights, he just kind of froze, and then said, “Yes, let's do that.”

And so, through Alan's guidance from his previous experience of being an author, he's brought him on that journey with him and he’s really, really enjoyed it. And the foundation to the book really stemmed from the training, the development programme they put together, which is really all about putting CX into context. They believe there's a lot of content out there. He’s going to leave Alan to drop the question in a second, but they believe there's a lot of content out there. But they believe that the actual application of customer experience doesn't happen as frequently as it should, which led us to the question, Alan?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that's right. When they were thinking about the book, they were thinking, well, how is this book going to be any different to all of the others out there on the topic of customer experience? Because don't know if you've checked, but there's just like so many books on the topic. And they just found themselves with this question, which is, “With all the content on the topic that's out there, why is great customer experience so rare?” It doesn't make sense if there's all that resource out there to guide people.

And that was what Dave's just touched on there that the problem, and the challenge is that so much of the time people are focused on content, and knowledge, rather than the practical application of that knowledge on a day in day out basis. And that's why the great customer experience is so rare. And in the book, they provide a framework that helps you whatever sector you're in, wherever you are in the world, whatever the size of your organization provides you with a framework that can help to guide you create your own customer experience strategy that suits your own particular individual circumstances.

Me: All right, so let's use a use example, a use case, I like the fact that you gentleman said that you want to focus on the practical because you are very correct. There are many, many books out there on CX and EX. And you read the content, and it's focused on knowledge, the definitions, the theory, but how does that really work with an organization, with people, with their behaviour, we getting them motivated with having them intrinsically applying that in every single interaction regardless of the channel that they're serving the customer on. So, you can choose a business, I will leave it up to you in terms of the use case, just give us an example of based on the framework that you have in the book, how does this really apply to a business?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he’s not even going to choose a particular business. He thinks that sometimes when you do that, you're kind of dragged into generalization. So, he’s just going to tell you a story. And it was a business that he was working in and they focused really hard on everybody that was in the organization understanding that they were part of delivering a great customer service and their job was to make their customers and clients feel important, that was the reason that they were all there.

And he remembered on reception, they were expecting a guy attending a very important meeting. And so obviously, they knew in advance that he was arriving, and they have pre-prepared a name badge, they also aimed to greet people before they introduce themselves in this particular environment. And so that happened, the receptionist greeted the gentleman by name, but they had not expected one thing, and that is that he brought with him a small terrier dog. Now, the receptionist actually said to him, complimented him on the dog, and then said, “And now Sir, if you could just lift him up in front of the camera.” and produce a name badge for the dog. And the guy went into the meeting room and announced to the people from the client organization, “That is the best welcome I've ever had anywhere in the world.” And then the meeting was a great success, down to that receptionist. So, the reason he loves that story is because it really emphasizes the importance of people understanding the big why they're there, rather than getting consumed and distracted with the small tasks that they might have to do in order to satisfy them.

Behaviours that are Critical for Customer Success in a Business from an Employee Perspective and from the Leadership Perspective

Me: Now, based on your research, and your experience, both of you in the CX space, if you were to choose maybe two or three behaviours that you believe is critical for customer success in a business, and I'm not just talking from the employee perspective, but also from the leadership perspective, like what are the three key behaviours that will more than likely lead to a culture where people have that customer centric mindset, regardless of the type of customer, how complex the problem or issue might be, but they're always driven by that because of those core behaviours. Would you be able to identify what those if you were to pick three, what those would be?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he can start with one for sure. And the one that leaps out with him is Empathy. And that runs from a kind of a customer facing team into the customer, but like you said, it's the leadership into to the rest of the teams and the organization. He thinks having that empathetic understanding of what people might be trying to do, or what they're going through, is so powerful.

And we're stepping into the realms of emotional intelligence here. And to the point that Alan's just made in that in that story, which is fantastic. People have to buy into that, right. So, they have to buy into that culture of trying to achieve and deliver that experience, not once but every single time. And he thinks that starts with a lot of empathy. He knows some leaders that are not very empathetic, shall we say, and don't understand why they can't achieve the results they want to achieve, not only in the business, but in the customer experience space as well. So, he would lead with empathy being one of the most powerful ones because it unlocks so much. Alan, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that at all?

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he'll go with number two, though, which he thinks is about positivity. So, when a customer asks you for something, the answer is yes. And it might not be exactly what they were expecting or had asked for. But how often do you hear, no, can't do that. And that's really not a good start to a conversation. So, he'd follow empathy with Positivity.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave stated that he would go number three is probably Communication. And that he guesses all ties everything up together nicely. He thinks sometimes, again, starting at the top with leadership, they might send a message once, whether it's via email, or it could be in person, it could be a presentation, and some people think that they can just deliver that message once and everyone gets it and understand it, it needs to be reinforced, it needs to become part of the embedded as part of the DNA of the organization. And that message needs to be repeated so it's understood and lived every single day. And he thinks having a great deal of empathy, and positivity, it just needs to be reinforced through communication, he personally believes.

Alan Williams: Alan asked can they give you just one extra one as a bit of added value. So, he'd go with Obsessive Attention to Detail. And this is kind of every person, every day, every minute, because consistency is what makes the great businesses set apart from those that are good some of the time. And that's because everybody in the organization knows the fine detail of what's required, and is then committed to delivering that every single time.

Me: All right, so Empathy, Positivity, Vommunication and Obsessive Attention to detail. Okay, thank you so much, gentlemen.

Insight on the Future of AI and How it Will Impact Human Interaction

Me: Now, I liked the fact that most of what you talked about focuses on people, focuses on behaviour, focuses on relationships, practical things that we can see, things that we do every day. I found, and I'm sure you've seen it as well, that in the last, I would say, maybe two or three years or even before but definitely in the last two or three years, there has been a lot of emergence in the space of technology with artificial intelligence. And I find that organizations sometimes may not necessarily be integrating it or using it in the best way possible to ensure that it's not replacing humans, but more so helping humans that can really help the overall experience.

And I'll give you an example. Over the weekend, I had a friend that has a mobile modem and we were having some issues adding some data to it and we called our local telecommunication company, reached out to them through their website. Actually no, we did it through their app that was on the phone, but the app has a Bot at the top and the bots name was Ruby. But Ruby can't answer any questions, Ruby doesn't remember what you told her before. And so, you tell Ruby, I'd like to speak with a representative, Ruby starts a conversation again, “Please provide me with your name and account number. Please tell me exactly what your query is about.” And I told Ruby that before and I felt like I was going in circles, it was just crazy. So, could you share maybe just some insight for us on what you believe is the future of AI as best as you can, because AI does cover a lot of stuff. But what do you believe is the future of AI? And how will that impact human interaction?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that it's really interesting. And they cover a lot of this in the book. And honestly, you could spend hours upon hours doing research. And he kind of immersed himself into this. You're spot on, AI is kind of forefront of technology at the minute, everyone seems to be dipping into it. You've also got augmented reality that people are looking at as well and they are fantastic things, and it's just incredible what some of these things can do. The problem that organizations have today is they see something shiny, something sparkly and go, right, we need that. And they try and integrate it and it's just kind of a lift and shift, kind of slot it into a place, and it fits in just or they've squeezed things around, and they go perfect. We can take our AI integration box off, we've done that.

But like you've just said there, there's not been any kind of sort of thinking or thought process around how we actually integrate that to the all of the other services and ways of communication that we have as an organization, that omni channel element hasn't been considered, we just see AI as a way potentially to do something with generative text, for example. And we go yep, okay, we can we can get that in, we can do that there, and boom, it's done. It's thinking about the entire process.

And he thinks another element to that is, let's say one organization in a certain industry does something that's quite revolutionary. Other companies in the same industry or even outside the industry might try and replicate that and they haven't considered how they operate as an organization, the value they deliver to their customers, and if it actually works. He thinks a lot of people feel like they might miss the boat if they don't sort of get on board with the technology bus, because it's just constantly changing. So, there's a lot of risk when it comes to technology, you need to do your research, your homework and what fits for the business.

And for him, it's thinking about it from a people point of view, technology's forefront of the minute AI, you name it, there's lots it can do. But it needs to work for people. And that's the thing, really, he thinks sometimes isn't considered. So, that would be his thought. Alan, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that at all.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he thinks that the issue is that people consider technology to be an alternative solution, whereas in fact, it should just be a support to people. So, when you've got predictability and high volume, then sure, he thinks technology can be a massive help in that sort of situation. But where you've got unpredictability, and perhaps volume that is up and down, then it's much less helpful. And it might be that a human being could deal with that much, much better. So, the big thing, though, is this thing about technology being a tool, rather than the be all and end all and he liken it to a scalpel, a scalpel in the hands of a really experienced surgeon can save people's lives. But in the hands of somebody who doesn't know what they're doing can be really dangerous. And it's the same with tech and customer experience.

App, Website or Tool that Alan and Dave Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Their Businesses

When asked about an online resource that they can’t live without in their business:

Dave Stubberfield: Dave stated what a question. He’s going to be totally contradictory to what he just said, he going to go ChatGPT. So, he uses that as a bit of a sounding board, really. So, in his organization, it's just him. So, sometimes when he has a bit of an idea, he thinks, “Oh, okay, maybe I should post it on social media or I should do this and have a bit of an idea.” He will often ask Alan because they are very alike, but sometimes he will just put a bit of a question into ChatGPT and asked for maybe what's relevant or how he should do a certain thing. And knowing that it's not always 100% accurate, he uses that as kind of as a gauge really to see if he’s on the right track.

It's funny, he will put something into ChatGPT, for example. Let's say he wanted to do a LinkedIn post this week and he might say, “Give me five myths about customer experience that we can debunk.” And he might find one of them, he goes, “Well, that's not a myth at all. That's the complete truth.” So, he might swing it in a way that he thinks is his own personal view and opinion. And he uses that as kind of a something to generate a bit of a conversation with himself rather than just talking to the brick wall. So for him, he quite often uses ChatGPT, he would say he’s using it daily, which is, it's mad really how it's become so prominent in people's lives.

Alan Williams: Alan shared that he’s going to add to his CV that Dave asked him before ChatGPT that’d go down really well. His, is his Outlook Calendar. He’s a bit too reliant on this. Basically, if it's not on the calendar, he’s not there. And occasionally, he was telling somebody just the other day how he was just about to go into a lunch meeting and he got a message from somebody saying, “Really looking forward to seeing you for lunch today.” And he had to have a very quick lunch meeting and then get to the other one and not tell the person. But his calendar is his.

Me: So, Calendar and ChatGPT. Excellent.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Alan and Dave

Me: Now, I usually ask the question, what book or books have had the biggest impact on you? I noticed in your book, which I love about how the layout of the book was done, that at the end of each chapter, you have a little box that says, “Want to know more” with resources in the form of articles and books that the reader can access if they want to gain additional information. I think that's brilliant. But I will still ask it. So, if you could share with me maybe a book that you read recently, or even a very long time ago, but it has still had a very great impact on you, whether from a professional capacity or even a personal development capacity.

Alan Williams: When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Alan shared that his is a long time ago, actually. So, The Balanced Scorecard: Translating Strategy into Action by Robert S. Kaplan and David P. Norton. So, basically, this is about making sure that your business is balanced and looking after all of the different stakeholder groups, rather than being just focused on generating profit. And over the years, that kind of sentiment he thinks has grown into triple quadruple bottom line ESG, all of the terms that are given to it, but basically a very, very similar message in that you're managing your business holistically, rather than just to generate profits. So, that's his.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he’s got a few that springs to mind. And the one he’s going to talk about most prominently is the one he’s listened to recently is the One Minute Manager by Kenneth H. Blanchard. This was a recommendation to him, he’s heard it and seen the sites all around, but he’s never actually taken the time to listen to it. So, that for him was really, really interesting because it talks about trying to do things in a minute, setting goals that people can read in a minute. Having reviews whether it's positive or negative in a minute, so you can redirect people or praise people. And he thinks a lot of us get bogged down in just day to day life, that everything becomes much more intense than it needs to be. So, that One Minute Manager for him, it was talking specifically about managing a team in an organization. But he thinks you can apply it to absolutely anything. So, that's the one he’s listened to most recently that has been phenomenal and eye opening for me.

One that he would like to call out that he’s previously listened to is The Prosperous Coach: Increase Income and Impact for You and Your Clients by Steve Chandler. So, coaching is a part of what he does and t that was something that really helped him and kind of confirmed to him and validate that he can do what he’s doing, which was amazing, because he had a lot of doubt at the time when he started if he’s a massive suffer of the imposter syndrome. So, that was really good for him personally.

And the other one he was considering? It was, Who Moved My Cheese?: An Amazing Way To Deal With Change In Your Work And In Your Life by Spencer Johnson, which is just he thinks it's a staple, if you haven't read or listened to that, then go and listen to that. That's phenomenal.

What Alan and Dave are Really Excited About Now!

Alan Williams: When asked about something that they are excited about Alan shared that this is going to be boring to some people, because the CX in context development programme, he’s thrilled about this, because they've started to deliver to clients, and the feedback has just been fantastic. And people are just saying, this is a real eye opener, because CX cannot just be treated in isolation, it is inextricably connected to other parts of the business. And this framework helps them to do that in a really simple to understand way and a very practical way. When he gets that sort of feedback, it makes him feel that it's been worth putting together what they've put together because it's good to be able to help so many people out there.

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that for him, he could quite easily say the same thing. But he’s going to be different. So, he would say in the past 18 months, he’s been developing an online tool that's called Nova. And Nova is a way and means of teams, organizations to measure how well they are implementing continuous improvement in their business, or in their team or in their organization. And that is something he’s done for a long time and he used to do it by an Excel spreadsheet. And talking to a friend of his, he said, “Dave, why on earth are you using a spreadsheet in this day and age?” And he kind of sat back and thought, “Okay, I should practice what I preach here and change what I do.” And it's led to this tool, which he personally believes is cutting edge.

So, basically, it's an assessment that each team would do in an organization, it will give them a score, it will give them actions to do, it will give industry insights as well, based on the information that's been provided, just so that it can help the team progress. That then creates an aggregated score up to the leadership, and that can be viewed across the leadership peers and the group. So, if you've got an entire organization, you've got a continuous improvement score, essentially, for the entire organization with industry insights that help drive the improvement of that organization and with Alan's help, they're going to look at introducing customer experience to that later in the year.

They've also got plans to introduce change management as well, as well as vision values, employee engagement, they see this as a potential game changer tool that can disrupt organizations for the better. So, a lot of positive to come from that. And that's not long been launched really, the start of this year and they've seen some really, really interesting returns on investment as well. So, fingers crossed that’s one for the future.

Me: That sounds amazing, Dave. Is that available to anyone in the public? Or it's still in beta?

Dave shared that it's available to absolutely everyone and anyone that might be a little bit unsure, a little bit reluctant to get involved or have a look, there's a free business health check at the very beginning that you can take, an initial assessment that sort of points you in the right direction, ask some leading questions to get you thinking, “Are you doing the right thing?” And at the end of it, it will tell you how you're performing based on that information and their suggestions moving forward. So, there's a bit of a freebie at the front as well.

Me: Now, my next question would be where can our listeners find that resource online?

Dave shared that they can find that at www.thinknova.uk

Where Can We Find Alan and Dave Online

Alan Williams - Company website – www.servicebrand.global.com

LinkedIn – Alan Williams

Dave Stubberfield - LinkedIn – Dave Stubberfield

Dave’s company website – www.carter-consultancy.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Alan and Dave Uses

Me: Now, before we close off the episode, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that in times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Alan Williams: When asked about a quote or saying that they tent to revert to, Alan shared that this relates to the book, actually. So, he created this the end of last year (2023) and that is, “Content without context is toast.”

Me: I saw that in the book, I thought it was kind of cute.

So, can you tell our listeners a little bit about how that quote brings you back on track?

Alan shared that it originated really from culture eats strategy for breakfast, it's like that kind of ring and tone to it. And he was just thinking about how so much, especially with social media, it's all about pumping stuff out there. But he thinks it really helps you to recollect yourself if you remember that your particular situation is unique. And you just need to focus on that. Don't get worried with all of the possibilities of all of the content, just think about what situation you're in right now and that will help you deal with it.

Me: All right. Thank you so much, Alan. Dave, do you have one of those quotes?

Dave Stubberfield: Dave shared that he does, his is a bit cheesy, people might hear and go, oh, no. But his one is, “Teamwork makes the dream work.” And he thinks, for him, to put that into context, again, he’s spoken that he’s solo in the business. But he thinks realizing that collaboration is king, really. So, let's take the book as an example. There would have been days, he’s sure, that he would have been not really 100%, and not firing on all cylinders. But he knew that he would have to present something to Alan later in that day to say, “This is what I've done or what I've produced.” So, that would be that factor.

But there would also be helping Alan out. If Alan said, Ok, we've got 10 actions to do, but I'm in meetings for the rest of the week, he would go leave that with me. I'll pick that up. he'll take the strain. And he thinks that's part of that teamwork. And he thinks, again, that's part of why they work so well, because they do have the ability to understand when someone hasn't got the time or the space. The other person just seems to pick it up from somewhere. He doesn't understand how or why, it's a bit of a dark art, but it seems to be working well for them. But that for him is the one, knowing that collaborating with people is often going to be so more advantageous to absolutely everyone. That's the one for him that pulls him out of that pit sometimes where he might not be feeling great.

Me: All right, thank you so much. So, Alan's quote, “Content without context is toast.” And Dave's quote is, “Teamwork makes the dream work.” Now, both quotes are phenomenal. And just to kind of piggyback on what Dave said just now, I say it all the time in customer service trainings, no man is an island, and the reason why an organization has more than one person working in it is we all have to work together. Everyone's role is important. You gentlemen wrote this book and I'm sure that it required a lot of sweat, tears, hard work, focus, just a lot of energy and engagement that you both had to put into it. And it wouldn't be the success that it is today if it is that you didn't put that effort into it. So, I fully, fully, fully endorse both the quotes that you've given to us.

And just want to remind our listeners that customer experience is a journey, it's not something you're going to get to overnight or in an hour. It's not something that you're going to just get from one book. And it's something that we continually work to improve every single day that we get the opportunity to work on it. So, thank you so much for sharing your great insights about your book, about all the different things that you're doing in your organizations, with your own clients. It was really a great interview and I hope you had as much fun as I did.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Balanced Scorecard: Translating Strategy into Action by Robert S. Kaplan and David P. Norton

• The One Minute Manager by Kenneth H. Blanchard

• The Prosperous Coach: Increase Income and Impact for You and Your Clients by Steve Chandler

• Who Moved My Cheese?: An Amazing Way To Deal With Change In Your Work And Life by Spencer Johnson

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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View Details

Vaishali Dialani is a multi-award-winning Customer Experience professional in the Middle East, has been recognized as a CXPA Emerging Leader, a finalist for CX Leader of the Year 2023, and has been ranked among the top CXMStars worldwide in both 2023 and 2024. She is a firm believer in the power of knowledge sharing to foster growth and awareness within the CX community.

With over eight years of experience as a data-savvy experienced designer, research specialists, and strategic change-maker, Vaishali passionately advocates for the integration of emotions and efficiency through customer experience research, product insights and communication. She currently serves as a Senior CX Strategist at Konabos, a consulting firm specializing in digital transformation.

Her commitment to knowledge sharing is evident through her involvement in podcasts, blogs, guest lectures, speaking engagements, and training programs. Additionally, she conducts leadership training workshops for professionals with low literacy levels, making a positive impact through collaborative efforts across diverse spheres.

Questions

· Now, we always like to start off by giving our guests an opportunity as I mentioned before to share a little bit about your journey from where you are were to where you are today.

· Can you share with us just a little bit about your culture, how customer experience is. If you were to give it a score, maybe on a scale of one to 10 with 10 being the best, what score would you give it and just any insights that you think would be beneficial to our listeners.

· What would you say have been as a leader in the different organizations that you've worked in, maybe one or two things that you believe has made or contributed to your success in driving CX design and CX delivery?

·How have employees across different industries adapted to the integration of technologies, specifically in artificial intelligence, like ChatGPT, to enhance customer service experiences? What future trends do you predict for technology's role in CX, and do you believe human interaction will remain vital in this space?

· Can you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Can you also share with us what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· What would you say are maybe two or three emerging trends that you believe will continue? Or will emerge over the next couple of months?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, we always like to ask our guests before we wrap our episodes up, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adverted adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, a quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Vaishali’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to start off by giving our guests an opportunity as I mentioned before to share a little bit about your journey from where you were to where you are today.

Vaishali shared that she started her career back in 2015, right after she graduated from Heriot-Watt University in Dubai, and just like any other graduate, she was like, “I don't know what I want to do with my life. I think I’ll start with marketing.”

Right quickly as she dived into marketing in the advertising world, it was chaotic, busy, a great learning curve, she learned what she liked. But most importantly, she learned what she didn't like. And that's where her analytical journey began from, she understood that it's important to know and work on your skills that you like. She paved her way to get her MBA done, and learn more about research and analytics, and then dived into a CRM officer where she picked up different aspects of what experience means, how you're helping small businesses grow, what is innovation and research, it’s a very cool experience.

And then she moved back to Dubai where she joined her FinTech company as the head of customer engagement. Now, this was a whole new world for her while she already knew marketing and analytics, but now running campaigns and media was super interesting. And just like in any other startup, you have to wear many other hats was very interesting, because normally she would play so many different roles, she had different opportunities where you would design experiences for low income migrant workers in the UAE.

It was almost like her postgraduate degree or a PhD, she would say, at no money, where she learned a lot of things. And that's where her curiosity for CX began, when she was designing experiences and working with the ideal. One thing paved to another and then she dived into CX, and she’s been in the industry for almost four to five years now.

Me: All right, that is a wonderful journey.

Vaishali’s Views on Customer Experience in Her Culture

Me: Now, throughout your journey, Vaishali, could you share with our listeners, I know you mentioned the different industries that you've worked in, but seeing that you've been in the CX space for a while, and our show is about navigating the customer experience, maybe you could share with our listeners a little bit about what your views are on customer experience. And I know you are in a different part of the world. And I know culture and behaviour varies depending on where you are. Can you share with us just a little bit about your culture, how customer experience is. If you were to give it a score, maybe on a scale of one to 10 with 10 being the best, what score would you give it and just any insights that you think would be beneficial to our listeners.

Vaishali shared that for the listeners, she comes from the Middle East from they say the light of gold, which is Dubai, and it's very interesting because it feels like you're always served in a platter. So, over the last few years, she’s been travelling a lot, and especially to the West and the East port. And she thinks there's major cultural shock that she almost have is why somebody not serving her enough. Being in Dubai hospitality is huge; services at its peak, people come for the luxury and lifestyle in Dubai. And so, she’s never had even if she goes to a restaurant, if she’s in Dubai, if she asks anyone to please can you pack this, I need a take away, they'd be like, “Yeah, sure madam”, and all of that. But when she comes to the West, they give her a box, and she’s like, “Oh, so am I supposed to pack myself?”

So many different experiences that are such culturally different, yet you're working on designing those right kind of experiences is very interesting. Being in the space that she worked across education, FinTech, healthcare, manufacturing, nonprofit organizations, and one thing that she finds, despite no matter where you are, in which part of the world across which culture you have been raised, is that we all are humans, and we all want to feel heard. And we want to all feel listened and feel the emotion that we're feeling whether it's with another person or a brand. So, despite many, many differences, being from the Middle East, one common thing is what kind of human experiences are we really designing?

Effective Leadership Strategies for Driving Customer Experience Design and Delivery

Me: What would you say have been as a leader in the different organizations that you've worked in, maybe one or two things that you believe has made or contributed to your success in driving CX design and CX delivery?

Vaishali stated that’s a difficult one. But she thinks something that's really helped her, and she truly believes in this is the power of love languages, and how you can mold that and use that in designing experiences, especially customer experiences, whether it is quality time and actually speaking to your customers, making them feel heard, and understanding where they come from, to just simple words of affirmations. And this can be digital affirmations, she’s not saying everything has to be in person, it's more about how you make someone feel like, “oh, this person hears me and understands me.” Do simple acts of service you do for them digitally, again, reward them that make them feel loyal to you.

So, when it comes to leadership, every different project is so different from one another despite being in the CX space, because they are spread across different verticals, from governance, to analytics to design, she’s had the experience of learning that we need to understand what kind of emotions we want to create, and then create those journeys. So, for her, that's been one of the key things is, drive and understand what emotion you want to create.

AI Integration in Customer Service; Employee Adaptation, Future Trends, and the Human Touch

Me: Now, a big part of CX is technology, right? Technology is here to help us and support us in delivering a more seamless and a less friction kind of experience with customers. In your part of the world, how have you seen your employees across different industries and verticals, as you had mentioned, adapting to the technologies, specifically in the area of artificial intelligence, there is ChatGPT and different things that organizations may integrate to enhance the service experience with their customers and cut down the more route type of activities that are very mundane and monotonous, they're investing in a technology to kind of reduce. How have you seen the adoption of that take place? And if you were to be a fortune teller, if you were to look into the future, where do you see this going? And do you believe human interaction will still play a very integral role in CX?

Vaishali stated, wow, what a question. It's very interesting. So, to answer the first part of the question, which is adoption levels. She thinks adoption levels are at its peak right now. We have no option but to keep up because a lot of the CX experiences and designs that they choose to design for their customers is technology driven. You can have the best of the best designs on Figma or Canva, or Miro, but to really bring them to life, you need the right tools in place. And to be able to do that, you will be able to understand which technology or business is actually using at the moment, what kind of architecture do they have in their back end systems, and what is really possible.

And in the ever evolving space, also, she thinks, today, all kinds of businesses, especially in the tech industry, they are coming up with niche tools and technologies across diverse industries specific to different features that allow them to give the best of the best services to their end users. But most importantly, they are very open to saying we'll integrate with another tool, whether it is in the healthcare industry, and you're looking at billing and medical insurance, they're creating their own tools to integrating with personalization tools to understanding when a patient needs to have their next checkup and reminding the patient about it to actually having analytical tool. There's so much that is happening in today's space and the adoption is at its absolute peak to keep up with the industry at the moment. That's the first part of the question.

And then the second part of the question is, there's so much that you can do with today's technology, no matter what you do human intervention can never be impacted directly she feels, they will always coexist in her space, she doesn't think it's going to be one or the other and completely replaceable. They will always need human beings because human beings evolve. And technology is made by humans.

Me: Very true. Alright. I love that.

App, Website or Tool that Vaishali Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Vaishali shared that she’s a very tech person, she loves using her app, she has apps for almost everything. But at work, she uses a lot of Canva; she’s creative as a person. So, whether it's the whiteboard or whether it's just designing something that she needs to just throw it out. She loves using Canva.

Me: Amazing. I like when I hear guests talk about using Canva. Recently, I did a presentation skills workshop for a client and they wanted to basically teach the team how to use Canva. And I remember, it was so fascinating, especially for persons who have never been exposed to the platform before, when they looked at the user interface of Canva versus a Microsoft PowerPoint, Canva is just like, it's like the Apple of design. Like in terms of how easy it is, you just drag and drop it, in PowerPoint, you take three steps, in Canva, you take one. And I just I find it so amazing, it really has brought design to the average person; even if you weren't creative Canva would find some way to stimulate your creativity.

Vaishali agreed, and more than anything, even like the guided templates too, they have everything, you can just create a design system in place to be able to do anything with it. Previously, developers used to use draw.io a lot to create the map and the technology flows. And like, guys no, we need to use Canva make it more colourful. And it's so easy to use.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Vaishali

When asked about books that have had a great impact. Vaishali shared that she just finished two books recently, but they are more spiritual, but she thinks one of the books that she’s still continuing to read, and she’s amazed by it is Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck. That the book is taking her longer to complete in all honesty is because you really need to retrospect and think, is this the way I think.

And it's just the way she would want to think like from growth mindset or fixed mindset and how our childhood, the way we just appreciate it really impacts on the way we work and our personality, or our character. So, there's a lot of retrospective to do. And she thinks she'll have to read the book 2, 3 times. But for now, this has been the biggest impact on the way she’s started evolving and thinking, so she'd highly recommend this book.

What Vaishali is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something she’s excited about, Vaishali stated that she'll give two things. So, the first one is she’s very excited because she’s travelling on a personal level. She’s travelling to Vancouver tonight to for her brother's graduation. And it's been a journey for their family. So, they're very, very excited for his graduation.

And professionally, what she’s very excited about is at the moment, she’s working on three different projects across manufacturing, healthcare, and education. And the best part about all of it is, is that all of them are across different verticals of CX, and that really shows the power of a) customer experience, but b) also how vast our growing industry is. And we all have some stuff to do and make an impact across different verticals of CX, so she feels super blessed.

Me: Alright, well, congratulations to you, brother and his graduation. That's awesome.

Emerging Trends Shaping the Near Future

Me: Now, can you tell our listeners, if you were to just think about maybe two or three trends that you believe will continue to grow and emerge as we wrap up on the second and embark on the third quarter of 2024, what would you say those are just based on working with clients, in your own business, listening to podcasts, being on podcasts, writing blogs, interfacing with other CX experts across different industries. What would you say are maybe two or three emerging trends that you believe will continue? Or will emerge over the next couple of months?

Vaishali stated, great question. And we all have been talking about this, start of the year, we were like, what’s 2024 going to hold for CX and is AI going to replace but she thinks now conversations have shifted, and everyone agrees, and a lot of the conversations she’s hearing about is, we are going to coexist together. So, that trend is kind of going to continue and only emerge, people are not going to lose their jobs because of AI, but they're just going to be supported better and to design better experience. So, that's definitely one.

The second one is what she sees as a shift, based on discussing with clients and having these daily one on one conversations, being the centre front of the industry is that there's a grey area that was first there was digital experience and customer experience, but she sees that becoming a grey area now to becoming actually digital customer experience, and people finding out and learning more about it. And that's a very interesting space, because it makes room for everyone to grow together and learn and share experiences, which she thinks is phenomenal. So, there are no more silos within even the experience design space anymore.

And the third one she would say is, she sees extremely authenticating orthodox industries, especially such as manufacturing, or education, which had a certain way of doing certain things digitally, are now ready to evolve and embark on a transformation journey. Because they think it's extremely important to kind of keep up to the industry and the world and the customer needs. And those are massive projects that they're working on internally. So, she thinks it's very, very interesting to see that shift in the industry right now.

Me: Alright, exciting times ahead.

Where Can We Find Vaishali Online

LinkedIn – Vaishali Dialani

X – Vaishali Dialani

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Vaishali Uses

Me: Now, we always like to ask our guests before we wrap our episodes up, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adverted adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get the real or you get off track, a quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert, Vaishali shared that she does. And it's one of her favourite quotes that she’s actually tattooed and it's called, “Fly with full faith.” So, it's always do your hard work and have faith in whatever you do. Because most of the times, it feels like we're doing so much and we still not able to get to the next place, we're stuck in a circle or a rod. And it's important to have faith and while you have faith, always, always do your hard work.

Me: All right, thank you so very much. So, Vaishali, I just wanted to extend our deepest gratitude to you again, for taking time out of your busy schedule, and hopping on this podcast with us and sharing all these great insights, especially as it relates to your culture and what's happening over there. Because the world is very small, even though we are in different continents or different places, human behaviour is still pretty much the same I believe throughout, we are through and through emotional beings. And I liked the fact that that came out in your message in terms of what we should be focused on in CX and ensuring that we're connecting with people on an emotional level, and what kind of feelings do we want them to have after they've interacted with us. So, I thought it was great that you brought that across in a message. So, thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Robert Scarperi, Bob has been a leader in professional services, SaaS, financial services, ad tech mar tech, and management consulting for 32 years. His company, Revenue Vision Partners is the industry's leading data-driven revenue growth consulting firm.

Questions

· Could you share with our listeners, just a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

· You wrote a book called Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling with three other gentlemen. So, could you take a minute to kind of just go through maybe three overarching themes that the book focuses on? And just how do you believe this can really help an organization to deliver a great customer experience?

· Now, I'd like for you to share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has had a great impact on your development and even your continued growth.

· Now, Bob, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, Bob, before we wrap up, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share. I'm not sure if you have one of these but a quote that you would tend to revert to if for any reason you are faced with some form of adversity, or challenge, but that quote will help to get you refocused, get you back on track, and just help you if for any reason you got the real or you got off track.

Highlights

Bob’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our listeners an opportunity to hear from the guest, in their own words, a little bit about your journey. And it has been quite a long journey, 32 years is a good amount of time to have under your belt in all of these wonderful areas. So, could you share with our listeners, just a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Bob shared that right around the time he was finishing college, he had a really strong pull to get into sales, he was extremely lucky to have had a best friend's father was the top sales guy at Automatic Data Processing, ADP, which is sort of known to be one of the best and strongest sales driven cultures in the Fortune 100.

And right from the very beginning, all of their structure, rigor, process, intensity really meshed with his personality and his sort of competitive nature. And so, he was lucky enough to have some early success, he’s very, very grateful for how much faith they had in him from an early age, giving him opportunities to run sales teams and move and get to experience new geographies and have really great experiences in such a phenomenally well-run company.

And then without going into too much detail, of course, his journey took him through a number of different industries, early days of ad tech, he worked for a long time as an equity sales and trading person at AllianceBernstein. He was lucky enough also to have some leadership positions, run sales teams internationally.

And then toward the last 10 years of his career, he had three Chief Revenue Officer roles in high growth technology companies where he really started to embrace being a leader who prided himself on installing a systematic data driven approach.

And toward the end of that decade, he decided he really wanted to do that as a consultant for a portfolio of companies so that he could be really working through various kind of company challenges in different industries with private equity firms as their partner. So, that's what brought him to where he is now.

About Bob’s Book – Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling and Three Overarching Themes That Can Help Organizations Enhance Customer Experience

Me: Now, Bob, you wrote a book called Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling: Leveraging insights, intelligence and the power of AI to deliver efficient, durable revenue growth with three other gentlemen, Mark Petruzzi, Ray Rike and Paul Melchiorre. So, could you take a minute to kind of just go through maybe three overarching themes that the book focuses on? And just how do you believe this can really help an organization to deliver a great customer experience? And I'd love for you to maybe segment it for us, because selling covers so many different areas. If you're selling to a business versus if you're selling to a customer….an individual, so maybe you could take one of those areas and kind of just break it down for us. And just give examples of what you wrote about in the book can really help teams that are in sales because sales is critical, it's a lifeline of any business. But how can the sales team really drive a quality customer experience that can drive to a high customer retention rate, because at the end of the day, that's really what all businesses are aiming for, as you're going to be able to keep your customers for life.

Bob shared that regarding who it's written for, it would really be for anyone selling to or trying to persuade a group of decision makers, so, usually an organization where a number of people contribute to a decision that is primarily in B2B sales. But if you find yourself in a position where you are trying to convince a town council to vote your way on a specific issue that's been a problem for the community or anything else where there are a group of people who need to kind of come together to make a decision, their book will help you.

And the way that it helps you is it lays out an approach that is not only proven by some of the most successful people in B2B sales, but it's also modern, utilizing the most high quality available B2B data. And they also talk about systems support, and AI as a tool that can help the modern salesperson navigate this very complex selling environment with multiple decisions in a tough time in the market, the macro environment is currently as complex as it's ever been. And being successful in sales at the moment is also as challenging and complex as it's ever been.

Me: So, I kind of wanted you also to maybe just go into, I would say, as I said, three overarching themes that the book focuses on. So, you mentioned AI and it's a very hot topic right across, I think, across the world, really, since it was introduced, especially since it's so accessible to everyone currently. But what does that really mean when you are selling to someone? Because at the end of the day, you're still dealing with human beings, so, what is the data really going to tell you? Or how is it going to help you to navigate that conversation? Because there has to be some human interaction, right? So, I kind of want you to walk us through that process.

Bob shared that the book talks about two different types of AI and it's really exciting because he doesn't think there is a sales book currently that, again, not only combines improving elements with AI and data approaches, but the two types of AI are generative AI, those would be systems like Chat GPT, who can help you create content in order to be compelling in a sales process.

And predictive AI, technologies like and he'll use an example, Clari, which is a tool that helps sales teams understand which of their open sales opportunities have the highest probability of closing, based on a myriad of factors. So, they do get into really solid detail and they also have contributors in the book who are experts in various topics and tell stories about how they've used these tools successfully.

Me: So, that's excellent, very good explanation on the generative and predictive AI. Because I do believe that we throw toward around so much in different industries, especially in the customer experience industry, many people believe that artificial intelligence is going to replace human beings and we're all going to be obsolete and not worth any value anymore. But I'm not there yet. And I live in Kingston, Jamaica, where we use technology here a lot, but we are not going to get to that point anytime soon, definitely not in my lifetime where you're not going to need people because we are still a society that is heavily dependent on people interaction. For example, in our banks here, and I compare it to the United States all the time. The banks are still full, 50….40 people standing in the banks. I travelled to the US quite often and I go to different financial institutions, and they are empty, there's nobody physically standing in there, there are no lines lined up outside or people lined up inside. So, just in terms of the culture and the behaviour of people just don't believe that we're going to eliminate the people component in customer experience, because people still like to deal with people, right?

Bob agreed yes, absolutely. And it's funny because he does feel like and the way that they lay it out in the book, AI can put you in a position to have more and better live human interactions with the right audience, if used properly. It doesn't replace humans; it sets humans up to be the best version of themselves and optimize their approach every day.

Me: I love it. So, it's really supposed to help us to interact better, to get to decisions faster, to understand people's behaviours quicker, to find solutions that are more need based, because a lot of times salespeople sell you stuff, they're driven by the quotas that they need to meet, they're driven by the pressures that their organizations put on them. But when you match value to the experience that the person is having and are they really getting the right solution, a lot of times down the road when there is like let's say a survey that's being done, or some form of focus group, especially if they're losing customers over a period of time, you realize that it wasn't even the right solution that was given to the client, or it wasn't being managed the proper way. And I guess, if they had the right data from day one, and it was being provided in the right way, they wouldn't have lost the customer in the first place.

Bob stated yes, he couldn't agree more.

The third theme of the book is utilizing simple data science in order to ensure that your sales approach is driven by your Ideal Customer Profile (IDP). And he'll just briefly state that as a sales leader, he had gotten frustrated by knowing that focusing on the ideal customer profile was the right thing and then defining that and making that approach data driven was impossible. It was a very distant and vague concept. But he believes that they own the very best definition now of what the ideal customer profile is and how to take that definition and identify score and rank specific prospects and clients that are the best match to that ideal customer profile and create an entire commercial approach with that as the foundation.

Me: All right, and what is the definition that you have identified in the book as your ideal customer profile?

Bob shared that it's basically utilizing firmographic traits to know what industry, what sub sector, what size of the company, how much it's growing, what web scraping tells you about a company, when you can build a model that identifies those common traits in your best customers, and utilize expert panels to ensure that the model has picked up on the right signals, that is the best way to create an ideal customer profile, and again, score and rank accounts. That's quite technical, but it's all in the book.

Me: Yes, agreed. And our listeners would have tapped into this episode, and they'd like to put their hands on your book, where can they find it?

Bob shared that the book, it's available in all the major outlets, but he will tell you, he’s a huge fan of Amazon and is readily available on Amazon in softcover, hardcover, and they'll have an audio version available within three weeks of today (May 09. 2024).

Me: Oh, okay, that was actually going to be my next question. Do you have it available on Audible?

And you better get used to this voice because it's 80% of the narration is done by him (Bob).

App, Website or Tool that Bob Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Bob shared ZoomInfo. ZoomInfo provides a backbone to a lot of the data work that they do at Revenue Vision Partners. And when they were in the marketplace to procure data assets, they did a thorough evaluation, they were convinced at the time and four plus years later, he continued to be convinced that ZoomInfo has the best B2B data available in the market.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Bob

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Bob shared that he would say that far and away, Strategic Selling: The Unique Sales System Proven Successful by America’s Best Companies by Robert B. Miller and Stephen Heiman is the number one book that has contributed to the way that he has approached sales since the early 90s. He feels it lays out the most logical and powerful and consistent approach or methodology for B2B sales.

What they tried to do with the new book is take methodologies like Strategic Selling, SPIN Selling, The Challenger Sale, and modernize the approach again with Data and Diagnosis and AI and build upon those methodologies.

What Bob is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Bob shared that in their firm right now, they're doing one of these ideal customer profile-based data projects for a very large, diversified industrial company who services about a dozen different end markets. They're a multi-billion-dollar organization, they've run a pilot in one of their key divisions and it's been a phenomenally successful data model.

And he’s convinced that their are hundreds of salespeople are going to utilize their time better, they're going to sell bigger and better fit accounts, they're going to be more gratified in their jobs, the company's going to gain market share in a more consistent and repeatable way.

And it's thrilling to do that, because this was the promise that they built their company on, and this couldn't be a better group of humans to work with who he just wants to see them succeed for all the right reasons. So, he’s so excited about this journey, they're just far enough along where there's proof that it's working and there's so much ahead of them in terms of their ability to empower them to succeed.

Me: All right, I'm excited too, just hearing all of the great opportunities that lie ahead.

Bob shared that in his tennis game, he feels like his backhand is really ready for summer.

Me: Do you play competitively, or do you just play for fun?

Bob stated that he plays intermediate competitively. So, he can be pretty terrible. He has a couple of great shots and feel really good about himself, but it's a blast.

Where Can We Find Bob Online

LinkedIn – Bob Scarperi

Company LinkedIn – Revenue Vision Partners

Instagram – @bobbyscarp

Website - www.revenuevisionpartners.com

Facebook – Bob Scarperi

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Bob Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Bob shared that it's quite a long one, so, he’s not going to quote the whole thing, but unless he takes up the rest of the time, but it is, The Man in the Arena, quote by Teddy Roosevelt.

And starting a business in one's middle age with lots of financial obligations, including three kids, two step-kids, etc…etc…has been a really bold decision and quite terrifying at times. And every time he wonders if he’s done the right thing, he grounds himself in that amazing speech and always feel like he comes back to believing that he was born to do something bold and that living through terrifying entrepreneurial moments are part of that and the victories that one is lucky enough to experience when they make that brave and bold decision are that much sweeter than then any other career related victories in his life. Of course, his highest highs have to do with his kids, but that whole man in the arena concept keeps him going every day.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Me: So, we will have that full quote in the Show Notes of our episode, the Teddy Roosevelt quote, along with what you shared just now as it relates to kind of getting you back refocused on why you do what you do.

Bob shared that and if you saw the Tom Brady roast on Netflix, Matt Damon does a great job of narrating the entire thing.

Me: All right, Bob, thank you so much for jumping on our podcast today and sharing all these great insights as it relates to Diagnostic Selling and Data Driven Selling, as well as Artificial Intelligence and the ICP, it's all great information. I've started consuming a part of the content of the book, but I just believe I’d get so much more from the audible. So, I'm actually going to wait until it's released in the next three weeks to continue, I just believe I get so much more listening to it rather than reading it. But I would recommend for anyone that is a listener to our podcast to tap into this awesome resource that Bob and his team have so graciously given to us in the world, it's a great resource. And I believe that if we continue to try to find ways to add value to people's lives, create opportunities that you're really providing the solutions that your customers want, that will allow them to be your customer for life, through the techniques that you use to ensure that you are selling the right way, making the decisions the right way, your customer experience will take care of itself. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on X @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Data and Diagnosis-Driven Selling: Leveraging insights, intelligence and the power of AI to deliver efficient, durable revenue growth by Bob Scarperi

• Strategic Selling: The Unique Sales System Proven Successful by America’s Best Companies by Robert B. Miller and Stephen Heiman

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Rachel Stanley came to Banzai in 2019 with over 10 years of SaaS onboarding, training, implementation, consulting, e-Learning, customer success, adoption and support experience. When Rachel joined Banzai, Customer Success was the only customer-facing job function.

Since then, Rachel has added Onboarding, Support and Customer Marketing successfully creating a Customer Experience organization that has driven best-in-industry customer satisfaction and grown Banzai’s Net Retention Rate (NRR) significantly. Rachel is passionate about building high functioning teams that consistently hit their objectives. Previously, Rachel has held roles at Amazon and ACS Technologies. Rachel lives in the Seattle area.

Questions

· Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about Banzai and what you guys do?

· Banzai focus is really on events and your target is really your marketers are your customers. What would you say are some of your customers main pain points? How is it that you're able to overcome some of those and successfully have a high retention rate because ideally, that's what all organizations aim for, to keep the customers that they have for a lifetime.

· Now, seeing that you've been in the Customer Success space for quite some time now, what are some of the emerging trends that you are seeing in the Customer Success space that you believe if that trend continues in a positive way will help to enhance customer experience?

· Now, Rachel, can you also share with us what's the one online tool, resource, website or application that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, and maybe even your development and just your continued growth?

· Could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that is going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Now, our listeners would have tapped into this episode, and they're quite intrigued with you, Rachel and they'd like to know how they can reach out to you online where can they find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests if you have a quote or a saying maybe something that you revert to or use if during times of adversity or challenge, this quote kind of helps to just get you back on track or get you back refocused. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Rachel’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share with our listeners, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Rachel shared that beginning of her career, she was actually an office manager for many years and an Executive Assistant. So, her customer base was very internal. And then she took the opportunity at ACS Technologies to apply for, she was an Executive Assistant office manager and applied for a onboarding, like specialist or an onboarding role. And so, that was her introduction into customer facing. And from there, it just kind of took off. She went from onboarding to an actual, like implementation consultants, than she ended up leading that team. And so, they mainly focus on training and implementation professional services.

And then coming into Banzai, was really when she wanted to break into customer success, it was still kind of new back then, it's really developed over the years. But at Banzai in the last five years, she’s just grown so much, thankfully, there's so many resources like this podcast out there that really explore all the areas of customer experience. So, at Banzai, like Yanique just said, it basically grew from customer success, and then added onboarding and adoption and support and customer marketing has been the latest addition.

About Rachel’s Company – Banzai

Me: Now, could you tell our listeners a little bit about Banzai and what you guys do?

Rachel shared that Banzai is a Mar Tech company. So, they're all about providing tools that give marketers data. And so, right now, their products are mostly event focused, they have a webinar platform, and then a platform/service that drives registrations to field marketing events. But they are this year is really exciting and they're looking at a bunch of different acquisitions that they’re mainly focused on how to provide data to marketers. So, they have visions of becoming a platform that has a tonne of tools for marketers to become a Banzai customer. So, for her this year, cross sell is a big focus.

Strategies for Enhancing Customer Retention in Event Marketing

Me: So, Banzai focus is really on events, as you said, and your target is really your marketers are your customers. What would you say are some of your customers main pain points? How is it that you're able to overcome some of those and as I mentioned when I was reading your bio, successfully have a high retention rate because ideally, that's what all organizations aim for, to keep the customers that they have for a lifetime.

Rachel shared that she'll specifically talk about their webinar platform customers, because that's the bulk of their business at the moment. So, the problem they often come to them, she would say most have already at least started a webinar programme, some customers are just starting but their main segment or ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) is mid-market, so most of them have done a webinar programme before but it's been clunky, they feel like their other platform wasn't engaging, and they didn't know how to prove the ROI of their webinar platform.

And so, what they really focus on is, thankfully, their platform is super easy, super clean, and all of that. So, they obviously want to make sure they use all of the features, all of the engaging features to help their audience engage more, but then they also point out all the data they have on the back end that helps them prove the ROI. And so, since their customers are marketers, they're obviously, most of their objectives are providing MQLs (Marketing Qualified Lead) and things like that.

And so, things like their focus rate, like being able to see who was the most engaged in a webinar really can provide like a lead score for them, and then push people over to sales and provide MQLs. And so, that's really where she thinks instead of just kind of letting them just get on the webinar platform and just run a webinar, they're really focused on how to improve the webinar, how to make it more engaging, and how to deliver the data that helps them move those prospects to the next stage of the opportunity.

Emerging Trends to Enhance Customer Success

Now, seeing that you've been in the Customer Success space for quite some time now, what are some of the emerging trends that you are seeing in the Customer Success space that you believe if that trend continues in a positive way will help to enhance customer’s experience…..generally speaking?

Rachel shared that that's a great question. She thinks internally, like the trend that we're all kind of looked at and focusing on is AI. And so, how can we utilize AI? And she thinks all of us, especially people that work in customer experience, we tend to all really care about people, like we have a lot of empathy, there's definitely like a persona.

And so, she thinks there's some concern in the AI space that like we don't want to be replaced by robots, or probably any function is worried about that. And so, she’s trying to learn as much as she can about AI and explore different tools and how it's being implemented. And what she thinks is, we really need to lean into how AI can help us be more efficient, but not replace us, like how can AI free up more of our time to focus on our customers and make sure they're getting the most value out of our product or service?

And so, what she’s seeing right now, like with support is, AI can help find an answer quicker, or kind of write a draft of a response to a customer, instead of just like, automatically sending a response to a customer like we've all had the experience of calling in, and they're like asking you to say and it's a robot, like asking you to say what your problem is, and you end up kind of screaming at the phone asking to talk to a representative. That's not the experience she wants for their customers.

And so, what they're leaning into is more like internal efficiencies and she thinks what that allows, it's good for morale, too, because freeing up time allows people to lean into their sweet spots and what they're passionate about, and what she’s seeing with CSM (Customer Service Management) specifically is allowing them to spend more time on things like a QBR or just checking in on a customer or joining one of their webinars, things like that. And so, she thinks that's a positive that if we can keep freeing up more time, then that's a trend she wants to continue to lean into.

App, Website or Tool that Rachel Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without, Rachel shared that Intercom for them, that's the tool they use for their Support Chat. It also allows them to do like in app pop ups, it could be anything from like a banner announcement to a survey, or announcing a feature release, things like that. It's what allows them to provide fast 24/7 support. For us a webinar, they have customers around the world, and they believe 24/7 support is essential because if something's wrong, it's super stressful in the moment, like, imagine if this podcast was live and there's a technical difficulty. So, Intercom is what allows them to do that and what allows their customer marketing to advertise things, but it's also like how they do like in app onboarding like a product tour when new customers initially joined. So, it’s an essential tool for them.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Rachel

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Rachel shared that over like the Christmas and New Year's break, she read two books that have really kind of framed a theme for her this year. And it's Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown and The Lazy Genius Way: Embrace What Matters, Ditch What Doesn’t, and Get Stuff Done by Kendra Adachi. And both of them aren't necessarily like business books. So, she likes books like that, that you can apply to your personal life and to work. And they kind of have a similar theme and actually though, she read The Lazy Genius Way first, and in that book, or maybe it's her podcast, but she recommended Essentialism.

She said, she reads it reads it once a year and basically Essentialism talks all about doing less but better. And The Lazy Genius Way, her tagline is “being a genius about the things that matter, and lazy about the things that don't.”

And so, going into this year with her team, she’s just really been talking about like an essentialist mindset. And it goes back to even her original customer facing days of training where she talked a lot about first you focus on what's essential, then what's important, then what's helpful, like when training the customer, and she thinks they can apply that with their own workload, like her team's job is never done, there's always something they could be doing more and better and they get a lot thrown at them. And so, to help with overwhelm and burnout, then focus on okay, but what's essential, like what's essential today, what's essential this quarter for them to hit their objectives and their goals? And it's really been helpful for her personally, and for every member of her team.

What Rachel is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Rachel shared that at the risk of repeating herself, it really is essentialism, even in her personal life, she’s trying to just shed doubt, like even parenting, it's kind of like a minimalist in a way but a little bit different. So, she’s trying to simplify her life and really focus on the things that are going to make the biggest difference like personally, she’s trying to exercise more and eat less sugar like things like that that are essential.

And then at work, she’s really been focused on like picking the three things that she has to do, like the most essential things in a day and trying to let go of creating a to do list that's 20 things long and feeling like she failed when she didn't do it at the end of the day.

Me: That’s a good one.

She shared that which is definitely her old way of operating and so ending the day feeling successful is way better.

Me: I agree, especially if psychologically you've conditioned your mind that if the list is smaller and definitely you’ve done in chunks and more manageable, then it makes it more realistic and provides you with a better transition from day to day, because as you said, you don't feel like you have failed and you feel successful going into the next day.

Where Can We Find Rachel Online

LinkedIn – Rachel Stanley

Website – www.banzai.io

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Rachel Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Rachel shared that she’s going to stick to kind of the theme of the last few questions and because she really does go back to the two quotes of the books she mentioned. Because her biggest weakness is more being a perfectionist and an overachiever. So, “Do less but better.” and basically, “Be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't.” It's okay to be lazy.

Me: I love it. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for taking time and coming on our podcast and sharing all of these great insights, sharing about your company, Banzai and also about customer success, and some of the trends as it relates to AI that you believe should continue definitely to free up people's time. As well as what you're working on as you're going forward. So, we just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown

• The Lazy Genius Way: Embrace What Matters, Ditch What Doesn’t, and Get Stuff Done by Kendra Adachi

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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View Details

Jason Feifer is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, a nonstop optimism machine, and a widely recognized authority on business and how people navigate change. He is the author of the best-selling book Build For Tomorrow, a startup advisor, and host of the podcast Help Wanted and Problem Solvers. LinkedIn name him a “Top Voice in Entrepreneurship”.

Jason has also had decades-long career in national media, which included working as an editor at Men’s Health, Fast Company, Maxim, and Boston magazine, and writing about business and technology for the Washington Post, Slate, New York Magazine, and others.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, and how they got from wherever they were to where they are today. So, could you share that with us?
• So, Build For Tomorrow, a book that focuses on startup advisory, and I just kind of want you to take a little time to share with our listeners, what the book is about? Who is the book targeted towards? And how do you believe the book has been helping others in their different careers and businesses?
• Now the book focuses on four phases of this change. The first is the panic, then you have the adaptation and the new normal and then that phase where we're never going back. So, could you just elaborate just a little bit, maybe give an example of each just to kind of cement that information across to our listeners.
• What are three-character traits that you found has to really be intrinsic to organizations or persons who lead organizations to help them really be customer centric?
• Now, could you share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Jason’s Journey

Me: We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, and how they got from where they were to where they are today. So, could you share that with us?

Jason shared that in brief, he started in media, he was a community newspaper reporter fresh out of college. Eventually, he got into magazines, he moved to New York City to work for Men's Health magazine, pretty different from Entrepreneur, and bounced around to a lot of different national magazines until he got to Entrepreneur.

And at first, he really treated Entrepreneur like a media project. His job was to do what he had done everywhere else, which was to be an editor and to tell great stories and to think about the media brand.

But over time, two things happen. Number one is that people because of the title, Editor in Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine, they started to treat him as an authority in entrepreneurship, which frankly, he was uncomfortable with for a while because his background was in media, until he came to realize that so much of business is not about the fundamentals of business, but it's really about the fundamentals of human thinking, and logic and reinvention, and the kinds of things that he had put himself through in his own career.

He thinks that we all have to recognize what our incredible skill is, and it's going to be different for everybody. His belief is that every human being has the same fundamental skill, and that is pattern recognition.

The difference among us is that some of us are better at recognizing different kinds of patterns, right. And so, his pattern is how people think and how people tell stories and how people understand the world. And he came to realize that by spending an immense amount of time with entrepreneurs, he was starting to absorb their way of thinking, starting to act like that, he’s starting to launch his own businesses, starting to advise startups, and that he could lean into telling their stories, processing their insights in a way that would be incredibly useful for other entrepreneurs. And that has led him to the career that he has now.

About Jason’s Book – Build For Tomorrow

Me: So, I was lucky enough to actually read your article in Entrepreneur Magazine. I think it was the February issue that I purchased when I was travelling, how failure can feel good, and it really intrigued me. So, I reached out to you on LinkedIn, and graciously, you accepted my request and here we are today having you on our podcast. So, amazing. So, in your bio, it was also mentioned that you recently published a book that would have been September of 2022. So, Build For Tomorrow, a book that focuses on startup advisory, and I just kind of want you to take a little time to share with our listeners, what the book is about? Who is the book targeted towards? And how do you believe the book has been helping others in their different careers and businesses?

Jason shared that Build For Tomorrow is a book for anybody who's going through change, particularly going through any kind of career change though.

He’s heard from a lot of readers that it applied well to personal changes as well. And the book is rooted in this philosophy that he’s developed, which is that when he meets the most successful leaders and entrepreneurs, he finds that they have all developed a unique personal relationship with change, they understand who they are in times of change, they understand how change can impact them in a positive way. And that unique relationship with change enables them to grow and build in ways that others can't.

And he wanted to write a book that distilled the experiences and the wisdom of people who have successfully navigated change and help others with a roadmap for how to do it too. That is just simply the most important thing that any entrepreneur can do is to be adaptable, to recognize that the things that are changing around them are great opportunities, and then to understand how to systematically approach that and that's the book that he wrote. And he’s had a really tremendous feedback from it, it's really gratifying.

Navigating Change – Understanding the Four Phases

Me: Awesome! Now the book focuses on four phases of this change. The first is the panic, then you have the adaptation and the new normal and then that phase where we're never going back. So, could you just elaborate just a little bit, maybe give an example of each just to kind of cement that information across to our listeners.

Jason shared that he found that everybody goes through change in the same four phases listed them out panic, adaptation, new normal, wouldn't go back. Let's focus on panic and wouldn’t go back. Panic, you know when you're panicked, you know when you're feeling that, you maybe are feeling that right now as he’s talking because something massive has changed in your work, because you feel like your industry is shifting underneath you. Who knows. And the reason why we panic is because decades of psychological research have confirmed what's called loss aversion theory. Loss Aversion theory is the recognition that our human brains are programmed to protect against loss more than to seek gain.

So, when something changes in our lives and or in our work, the first thing that we do is we identify the things that we're comfortable and familiar with and then we start to think about how we're going to lose them, we're acquainting change with loss. And then we start to extrapolate it, well, because I've lost this thing, I'm going to lose that thing because I lost that thing, then I’m going to lose that other thing. Now, everything starts to feel like it's disappearing, now, we are panicking. But you can't do that forever, you can't panic forever, it's too exhausting.

Eventually, you start to look around and say, well, what do I have to work with. We get to adaptation. We start to build a new normal, a new foundation, something comfortable and familiar, again, a new normal. And then we get to wouldn't go back, that moment where we say I have something so new and valuable that I wouldn't want to go back to a time before I had it.

And he can give examples of that. But the pattern that he’s seeing is that people are often forced into or sometimes are proactively making changes that force them to reconsider the fundamentals of the work that they do. And what they discover is that the way in which they were working before or the thing that they were doing, or the way that they were delivering value to their clients or their customers, that that wasn't the only way to do it. They thought that it was…..but it wasn't.

And in fact, it was a lesser version of a better way to do it that had never been explored because oftentimes people don't feel incentivized to scrap something that's working, or that sort of working, and take the risk of figuring out how to build something better.

But when change comes along, when you are disrupted, when you're forced to react to the things that are shifting around you, you start to ask yourself some really fundamental questions about whether or not the things that you thought wouldn't work maybe are worth trying. And some of those are going to become the best opportunities for you going forward.

Me: All right, so change. I remember over the years, even going to university and starting my working life and starting a business, I've always heard the phrase that change is constant. And I haven't engaged in the book, I did download it on Audible, and I've started listening to it but I haven't completed it as yet. But what your four phases reminded me of was that change is constant. So, regardless of a pandemic emerging across the world, or kids coming into the play or getting new employees, like change is constant, we're constantly going through change in different aspects of our lives, so your phases definitely reminded me of that.

Jason stated that that's something that you can operationalize.

So, the idea that change is constant is a familiar one for many people. But he thinks often you hear that and you don't know what to do with it. Okay, change is constant, so what?

Here's the starting point. What would happen if you made decisions today based on the knowledge that the thing that you're working on now will have to change tomorrow?

What decisions would you make when you know that?

It starts to shift the way in which you work, you start to for example, do a thing that he calls change before you must where you start to make decisions that are hard today because they will benefit you when things change tomorrow.

A story that he’d love to tell, he won't tell it in full here, because it takes a while but divided in the book is of a brewer, a guy who started a Beer Brewery in Delaware named Sam, his company's called Dogfish. And he had a runaway hit product in a beer called 60-minute IPA, people love this beer, it was on track to become 75% to 80% of all sales of his company, and he artificially limited supply.

So, this thing was on track to become 75% to 80% of all sales at Dogfish, he capped that at 50% and that meant that people were furious at him, restaurants couldn't get his beer stocked, bars couldn't get his beer stock. And he says, “Sam, why would you do that? Why would you limit sales of your best-selling product?” And the answer that he gave me was because tastes change. And he knew that if he allowed this one beer to be a runaway hit so that everybody who ever went into a bar or a restaurant encountered just this beer of his, just this one 60-minute IPA. Well, then at some point IPAs, India Pale Ale, popular bitter style appeals is going to become less popular than it was at that one moment.

And if people's impressions of his company were shaped by one beer by an IPA, then he was going to be known as a hot IPA brand. And that's fine until tastes change, they will change at which point he won't be a hot IPA brand, he will be an old brand, he'll be a dead brand. And so, he wanted to do something that was painful today for the benefit of tomorrow, anticipating that change will come.

And the payoff for the story is amazing, which is that Sam limited sales of his best-selling beer when people would order it, he would try to get them to buy or stock or serve other styles of beer that he made. And as a result, he shaped perception of his company Dogfish not as a hot IPA brand, but as an innovative brand. And you know what you can do with an innovative brand is you can sell it for $300 Million Dollars, which is exactly what he did.

That's not something you could have done if he had just thought about how to profit today, how to only succeed based on what was working today. That's what it means to build the reality of constant change into the decisions that you make today, know that they will require change tomorrow. So, how can you anticipate that and be proactive about it.

Me: Brilliant. I love that story, Jason Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing.

Essential Character Traits for a Leader

Me: Now, Jason, as Editor of Entrepreneur Magazine, I'm sure that you interface with a lot of CEOs and a lot of business leaders across different industries across the world. And so, I wanted based on your expert opinion and your exposure to persons of this nature, what do you believe are maybe three, it's a kind of a generic question. But I like to hear from the subject matter experts, three let's say character traits that you found has to really be intrinsic to organizations or persons who lead organizations to help them really be customer centric, because we're all about navigating the customer experience. And the reality is, if you don't have the right people doing the things that your customers want and creating value, you're not going to have a successful business. And if your customers don't feel like they're getting value, and they choose to do business with your competition or not do business with you at all, over time you will not have a successful business. So, it's twofold and you want that person who can navigate the personalities and navigate as you said, the change and the many different things that will come forth, what would you say are three-character traits that you think someone like that would need?

Jason shared that the first thing that comes to mind was a conversation that he had with this guy Matt, who at the time was the president of Reebok, Reebok the athletic wear company. And he told him (Jason) and this was the first time he'd heard this phrase then he started hearing it everywhere, which was customer obsession.

He said, “We're really obsessed, we're completely customer obsessed at Reebok and we want to understand them, and we don't want to understand their needs.” And he’s heard that from a lot of people, but he had never heard the next thing that he told me, which was this metaphor that he uses, he says, “Look, we are in a moment in business where quality is assumed.”

Where if you let's say, wanted to start a scissor company making scissors, you could not advertise yourself as the sharpest scissors. Because every scissors is the sharpest scissors right? It's easy enough now to manufacture scissors that every scissors is the sharpest scissors.

So, if you want to be successful selling scissors, you can't lean on quality alone. Quality has to be table stakes, quality is what people take for granted, it's what they expect. The next place that you need to go is who exactly are you serving?

And how do you relate to them?

How do you tell a story that makes them proud to use your scissors, that makes them feel like when they use their scissors, they're exploring a version of themselves.

That's what it means to be customer obsessed is to understand the way in which your customers thinks to the degree to which you can tell your story in a way that relates directly to them.

Now, he’s not telling you something that you don't know based on serving customers, but that scissors metaphor really stuck with him because he thinks a lot of people, their starting point is, well, because I make the best….. But if you take that away from yourself, and you say, “Being the best at whatever is not enough, because quality by itself doesn't sell, then what else am I doing here?”

He has a friend and he’ll make this kind of point number two. Her name is Rochelle DeVos. And she is a Consumer Insights Research Specialist and is brilliant and understanding consumer psychology and has taught him a lot but the framework that she shared with him and again has really stuck with him the most is so much so that he actually has it on his desktop and he’s looking at it right now to read from Rochelle's thing.

So, she says, “Look, if you want to understand how to relate to customers, then you need to fill out the following sentence. “When (context) I want solution so that (benefit) from the perspective of the consumer.” So, give you an example that she uses from a compression sock company, a company that makes kind of tight socks for people who have foot pain.

So, she says alright, when context I want solutions so that benefit. When context, when my feet hurt from standing all day, it's the context in which there's a need for a solution. I want a solution. I want to feel comfortable while still looking cute.

Her example is a company that makes compression socks for women. So, that's something that they are concerned about.

So, that benefit, so that I can do my job, be present for my family, enjoy my life while not standing out because of my foot pain.

What's so important about understanding this when context I want solutions so that benefit is that most entrepreneurs get stuck at solution.

They talk about the solution that they have, I've made compression socks, I've made compression socks for when your feet hurt.

But the real conversion, the real connection to the audience comes at the benefit. It comes at being able to articulate the value that your customer is going to get from using your solution.

Customers don't care about solutions, nobody wakes up in the morning and they're like, I want compression socks. What they think is I want to do my job and be present for my family and enjoy my life. That's what they want. So, how do you understand the benefits that they want enough that you can have a conversation with them that is benefit oriented, because that is where you win.

And Rochelle suggests the way to do this is, is to be constantly in touch with and survey your consumer so that you understand how they think and how they talk and the language that they use. And he finds that perspective to be incredibly powerful.

So, if we're making a list here so that you know number one he thinks is to be customer obsessed to the point where you recognize the quality itself is not going to connect to your customer.

Point number two is to be benefit oriented, to understand your consumer at a level that is deep enough that they will, that they can articulate the benefit of that consumer is seeking.

And if he had to come up with a third one, qualities of leaders who are customer centric.

He’d say that there is a level of inefficiency that leaders are willing to tolerate, to learn from their customers.

A conversation that always stuck with me is a woman who had started, he can't remember the name of the company, but it was a paint company, she makes like, really cool paint colors, and it had been quite successful. And the company has grown, it's actually been acquired, she's still running it.

She has a large team, she still is in her brand's Instagram DM’S every day, corresponding with customers, if somebody DM’S that brand on Instagram, the CEO responds, and that is deeply inefficient.

But it has helped her stay in touch with her consumer in a way that she feels she would lose if she retracted from that and she just focused on all the operations of the business.

She wants to be in touch in a way that is inefficient. She has a tolerance for inefficiency, because that is the thing that is ultimately enabling her to understand her customers’ needs today and where those shifts are tomorrow.

Me: Wow, that's amazing, a CEO that's in the DM’S. That's brilliant.

App, Website or Tool that Jason Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that can’t live without in his business, Jason shared that these days, he has been absolutely loving Fathom. So, you can get at www.fathom.video and Fathom is a AI note taking tool.

He has it in all of his calls and meetings now. And it just does a great job of contextually summarizing what was said, provides a transcript, it's not a perfect transcript, but it's close enough so that you can go back and find what somebody said, and then it's very searchable.

So, he found that to be an excellent way of passively collecting all the information that is being shared and discussed so that he has now a kind of catalogue of it and an easy way to go back and find it. He strongly suggests just having something like this running in the background of all your meetings now. So, again, it's just www.fathom.video is the company's website.

What Jason is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s excited about, Jason shared that he’s been working on a newsletter for the last year, it's called One Thing Better. And the tagline that he has for it is, “One way each week. One way to be more successful and satisfied at work and build a career or company that you love.”

And each week is him sharing a strategy. Usually it's a story that articulates it, and then an exercise that people can use to think more adaptively, to be more open minded, to find opportunities in places you're not looking, to just feel better about work.

His wife refers to this newsletter as work therapy. And he’s been just incredibly gratified by the response that he’s getting to this newsletter, it pretty quickly grew to 50,000 subscribers.

And he just gets these emails from people telling him that they print out his emails, and they keep them on their desk to read regularly, or they forward it to their friends who are struggling with something.

And he’s so excited to have created something that can have that kind of personal connection. If you want to check it out, it's www.onethingbetter.email, that's the web address. And he just thinks there's a lot of potential in exploring the newsletter space and in creating things that are both connecting with people on a business but personal level as well. That's a space he really like to live in. So, he’s been excited to be building that and to see where it goes.

Me: So, we'll definitely have the link to the newsletter in the show notes of this episode. And I imagine once they subscribe, they can have access to previous newsletters that were published, correct?

Yes, as soon as you visit the website, you will see the back catalogue.

Where Can We Find Jason Online

Newsletter – www.onethingbetter.email

LinkedIn – Jason Feifer

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jason Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Jason shared that he’s not big on motivational quotes, he doesn't get driven that way. But he’s had a lot of people say really impressive things to him that stick with him.

One of them came from Malcolm Gladwell, who is a best-selling author and podcaster, and so on. And they were talking about work and so on and he had said this line to him which he loved, which was, “Self-conceptions are powerfully limiting.”

The idea being that if you have too narrow vision of yourself, then you will limit all the opportunities that could come your way, that don't fit that narrow definition of self. So, self-conceptions are powerfully limiting and that is something he thinks about a lot as he pursues things that takes him out of his earlier conceptions of himself.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing. All right, Jason, we will just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us today, talking about your best-selling book Build For Tomorrow, and the four phases that are connected to that book, also giving us three of the strong character traits that you believe will help leaders to really build an organization that will not just provide value for their customers, but also for their employees so it can be a win-win on both ends. And the insights, the knowledge, the experiences that you’ve shared with us today, the stories, they were just extremely insightful. And I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Build For Tomorrow by Jason Feifer

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Steve Cockram is an inspirational communicator, serial entrepreneur, confidant to elite leaders around the world and co-creator of the world's premier “Leadership Toolkit”.

He has co-authored The 100X Leader, 5 Voices and The 5 Gears with his business partner, Jeremie Kubicek. Their new book, The Communication Code, released in November of 2023.

Questions

· So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Your book, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?

· Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?

· What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?

· When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. How can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.

· Now, Steve, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your own business?

· Now, could you share with our listeners as well, Steve, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Steve, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Steve’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

Steve shared what an interesting question that is, nobody ever in their right mind have done all the things he’s done in the last 30 years. So, he'll give the highlights. He was a school teacher, an entrepreneur, a nightclub owner, a pastor, a coach, consultant, and been running Giant really with Jeremie for the last 11 years. So, he always say if you were to meet his friends at the age of 30, and ask who would be the least likely guru on relational intelligence? Probably, he would be in everyone's top three.

So, everything they've learned usually has come out of their own personal failure and trying to work out why human beings behave the way they do. And also, how can they help people do relationships better in every area of their life? That's really been the heart and the joy of the last few years.

About Steve’s Book – The Communication Code

Me: So, your new book that was mentioned in reading your bio, The Communication Code, you wrote it with your business partner, Jeremie Kubicek, could you share with us a little bit about that book, maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book focuses on? And kind of who is the book geared towards?

Steve shared that they kind of say the book is for anyone who is involved in any form of human interaction relationship, i.e., everyone. They write for leaders really, but he honestly believe all the resources they created, this is probably the one that leaders apply most in their home relationships as much as they do anywhere else.

So, the premise gives you a couple of things. One is that transmission of information is not the same as effective communication. So, just because you've sent information to someone does not mean that they've understood the intent with which you've sent it or your expectations as to how you would wish them to respond. So, they use the analogy of saying, if you think of a communication code for those sort of like the enigma machine or a codebreaker, if I could send to you a communication code in advance of the transmission of information, which shared with you how I would like you to respond, we are more likely to meet each other in the middle and communicate effectively.

So, the basic premise is there are five communication codes, each come with clues. If he said to Yanique, “I'm going to send this to you, I want you to critique it, I want you to tell me why it's not going to work, you won't hurt my feelings. It goes live in two hours. If there's mistakes, I want to know, full critique invited.”

Second one is Collaboration, where basically he says, “Yanique, I've been working on something, I think it's pretty good, but I think you can bring things that will make it better.” So, full collaboration, please help make this better, whatever that is.

Clarify, if he says to you, “Yanique, you know I've got something really important to share, I don't think it's going to come out perfectly first time. Would you ask great questions, don't try and critique or collaborate too soon. Help me get out what I'm really trying to say.”

Because clarification is usually the ability to ask questions before you launch into something else.

Care is the fourth communication code, which says, this is what I got wrong many, many times where just because someone is transmitting information to him, doesn't mean they want him to fix them, solve them or be their consultant. Care means, “Steve, I am struggling right now, what I'm going to say to you probably bears no resemblance to what the real issues are. I just need to know that somebody cares enough about me to be present, to listen, not trying to solve me, not trying to fix me.”

Then the last one was celebrate, which is, he might say, “Yanique, hey, before we go on, this is really important to me, I'd love us to take a moment to celebrate something really special, not move on too quickly and go.”

So, the idea being is you'd be amazed if you add five communication codes that you send in advance of the transmission of your information, you will find that basically, relationships that you struggle with at work, with the people you lead, even the people you have at home, you will be amazed what happens when you actually give them clues as to how you want to respond.

So, there you go, that's the quickest overview he’s ever given of the communication code book, so apologies if that was longer than you were hoping, but he hopes it at least wet your appetite.

Me: It did. So, just run back through the five C's for me. You said Critique, Collaboration, and what was the third one?

Steve shared, Clarify, Care and Celebrate.

So, what happens is that all of us have default communication codes that are wired into our personality. So, when he doesn't think about it, he automatically tries and collaborate but it's experiences critique. His wife, for her care is number one, and clarify is number two. So, when people present to him things that they're struggling with, unless he’s intentional, he will usually try and solve their problems.

And it's amazing how often that goes wrong because he’s not actually able to meet the expectations, unspoken by the way of the person on the other side of him and just for every leader, every day when you're managing people in different contexts will almost always end up with miscommunication, this is just simple. Children can learn it and understand it, they use it at home the whole time. And it's been transformative, so that's why they share it.

Understanding Your Primary Communication Code

Me: Now, you mentioned the five C's in terms of communication code, if someone wanted to know what was their primary code, right, because you said your primary one is collaboration, but it's received as critique. And your wife’s care and clarify. So, if I wanted to know or one of our listeners wanted to know what's my primary communication code? How do I know? Is there like a test that you can do?

Steve shared that there is, if you go to www.giantworldwide.com, there's a free assessment there. Or it might be actually www.giantos.com.

So, there's a free assessment. But it's really interesting when actually you begin to think about the transmissions of the miscommunication. So, a lot of people either think by sending an email they've communicated effectively, and the reality is, the moment you grasp as a leader that transmission is not the same as effective communication, you also begin to think, how could I use this, now he'll even use it with people who haven't learned the communication code. He'll say to them, “Hey, before I respond to you this moment, you've asked me for this. Can I just be clear, what do you hope happens here? Are you asking me just to listen and be a good friend or a good boss? Are you asking me to celebrate with you? Do you want to ask good questions, you asked me to help make it better? Or do you want me to tell you why I think it will or won't work?”

So, if you think about it, you can become intentional immediately and amazingly when people believe that you are more relationally intelligent as a leader, you'll be amazed at how much your influence grows with the teams and the people you lead every day. It's amazing what people do when they feel that they're being listened to, heard and that you're committed to trying to really hear what they're trying to say, rather than what he guesses he used to do, which was just respond with whatever he thought was most appropriate in the moment, or whatever pressure he was dealing with.

The Importance of the Five C’s in Customer Experience

Me: Now, a big part of communication, Steve, and I'm kind of bringing this back to customer experience, right? Typically, a customer will reach out to an organization for primarily two reasons, to make a request, it could be for an existing service that they have with your company or product, or it could be for a new service that they’re seeking to attain. Or they're calling because they have a problem and they would like it resolved. So, primarily those are like the two channels that customers will reach out to you for. What do you think is critical in customer experience? If we were to look at the different code, channels that you spoke to us about the five C's, do you think they're all critical? Or do you think there may be one or two that definitely must occur in that interaction?

Steve shared that it's a really good question. His instinct in EQ is to say that clarify is probably the place to start. Because in a sense, the clarification is what are they really wanting to happen? What are they really hoping happens? And he guess asking the right questions in the beginning, for those of us who are problem solvers, we tend to launch into problem solving quickly.

And he would say that really understanding, well, is somebody just wanting a rant, does somebody just want to have their pound of flesh and get that off there and he just needs to sit there and care and not try and solve it. Or do they have a specific problem that they really hope he can help them with?

He thinks it's unlikely that celebrate is going to be the agenda, but it would be nice if they were ringing up to say how amazing they think your product is. But he would say probably the clarify is where you start and making a judgement of whether what this person really wants is just you to listen, or whether they're actually more likely inviting you beyond the initial clarification into a collaborative process, how do I help bring a resolution to the reason that you are contacting customer service?

Now, he thinks the other one, he doesn't know what it's like in your part of the world, but you'd be amazed how many people will spend an awful long time waiting to get through to a customer service line. So, he thinks sometimes the disarming connection, the saying, “I'm so sorry. I'm aware you've had to wait a long time, I would love to be able to do everything I can to help you resolve whatever the issues are.” He always think that goes a long way with him when someone at least recognizes that he’s probably been on the call longer than he was hoping he would be.

Improve on the Competence of Asking the Right Questions

Me: Agreed. So, I'm happy you said clarify, because the question I really wanted to ask you, but I kind of wanted to hear what you would have said based on the customer experience approach is. When you're explaining to me the five C's just now and you said in terms of communicating, you have to be really good at asking questions. And it has been my experience as a customer service trainer and even as a podcaster, I must say I've gotten much better at doing it over the years, but I find a lot of people who are in customer service practitioner roles struggle with this, like how can you improve on the ability or the competence of asking the right types of questions? Because that's critical to the whole communication process, if you're not asking the right questions, then you're not going to get the right responses to get to the solution.

Steve shared that he thinks you actually master your content and the products of which you are going to be answering people's questions. There's a competency filter which means, “Do you know how to help somebody in that process?”

And he thinks it's different again, whether you're doing it online, or telephone or whether you're maybe in a physical place, like if he goes to the Apple store, the geeks helped him, there's different things he would say depending on whether it's face to face or whether more likely it's even just over a phone because he thinks you have to remember is that communication, only 10% of communication is the words that are used, 35% is the tone with which the words are offered. And then 55% is the nonverbal communication body language.

So, you're delivering customer service and all you have his tone of voice and words, you're already having to work hard to really understand what is it this person is seeking to communicate.

So, for him, he thinks that communication part is potentially really helpful, because it's almost taking the time to clarify and ask the question to really make sure you understand what the intent and the expectation.

So, there's the two things that he’s always trying to understand when someone's speaking to him, what is their intent really? And what is their expectation of this engagement? Even if he knows they probably won't tell him, or they may be unaware of even knowing what it is in the first place is the reason communication is so difficult to train.

But it's also how people have tools, it becomes really significant when people are able to begin to decode what is the intent, what is the expectation, in his world, obviously, you alluded to something called five voices, he spent about the last 20-25 years trying to work out why humans behave the way they do and understanding that different personalities react very predictably to different interactions. Now, that's probably a high level of sales skills and customer service is a degree of sales if you think about it.

But actually, there's another piece that if people want to add skills, begin to listen to the words that people use, whether that's in the way that neuro linguistic programme would, programming would start to think about, do they talk about what they see, what they hear? Or are they more kinesthetic and in our language of voices, he’s listening for what type of personality is presenting themselves to him in the way that they engage, in the way they communicate.

So, he would argue that in any human interaction, the person communicating, transmitting to you is giving you lots of clues.

The question is, to your point, how much time do we really spend listening and trying to understand, discern who this person is, what their intent, what are the expectations before we launch into probably what they were expecting, which is a more collaborative approach to how do we help resolve their issue, bearing in mind that the presenting issue may not be the real issue.

There's so much in there, here's the thing he'll encourage to anyone who's really interested in developing their skills in this area, he’s your kind of Beacon of Hope, because he’s like 24 years on now into this as one of the least relation intelligent people by nature, sadly, by personality. And actually, now many would say, I think really hard about it because I’ve really had to learn, the things that don't come naturally to you, you often end up being a better teacher and coach, because you've actually had to wrestle and struggle with your own inability at my time to listen.

They have a tool in their toolbox called the boomerang effect, learn to be interested before trying to be interesting. It's like relational intelligence 101. And he thinks it's amazing how often people want to talk to you about them and whatever you say, it reminds them of them or where they've been, that's another area that he’s not sure where the customer experience particularly, but as a communication tip, it's amazing what happens when you meet people are interested in you, more than trying telling you how interesting they are.

Me: Yeah. Well, it's funny, you said that, because one of my very favorite books, and I try to read it at least once per year is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. And he talks about that in his book and I mean that book was published from 1933. So, it's amazing that that fundamentally is still the case today, because we are true and true human beings and as you mentioned before, some traits are just predictable.

Steve agreed that they are, and he think that's the bit which human behaviour is more predictable than any of us would ever give it credit for. And he thinks that's the bit where, he doesn't know whether you've watched the film called The Matrix. The moment you begin to understand why human beings behave the way they do, it's a little bit like the green letters and numbers coming down the screen, and you begin to watch a human interaction in different dynamics, in different ways, and you suddenly began to realize, actually is it's more predictable, and therefore if it's predictable, it can be learned.

And that actually, without it being manipulative, we can actually really work on being far more relationally intelligent and that will help us in every aspect of our leadership, whether we're working with our teams, or whether we're working at home, or whether we're ourselves engaging with clients and customers. But fundamentally, he would argue now that relational intelligence is now become even more important than classic IQ. AI does so much now. I don't know how much you play with it, but in our world is ridiculous how intelligent AI is becoming. But the one thing it doesn't do well, it doesn't do the relational intelligence piece as well as human beings do.

And he’s not convinced that it will ever replace it. All he knows is it's becoming, he often says that basically, the ability to establish, maintain and develop long term relationships inside and outside your organization is the primary currency of wealth and influence in the new world.

App, Website or Tool that Steve Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Steve shared that the differences in the geeks who run his business are, he tries to think what for him, he thinks 1Password as a middle aged man is the app that he loves the most he looked in before, and he has 376 logins and very secure pieces of data in one app, which basically means I doesn't have to try and have 357 passwords identical. So, 1Password is the best. He doesn't know what it is USD $3.99 a month. But actually, that makes him feel more secure and safe online, that's him personally.

The business, he thinks if you were to speak to their team at the moment, they're building an app, they use a software called Framer, but it's a way in which you can see what technology in the app will be and do and look like before you actually have to actually engage in building the coding. So, he’s a massive fan of Framer, even though he’s not the person who actually runs it. There's some far younger, clever UI, UX developers who do all that work. But fundamentally, he’s always massively impressive with what Framer does.

What Steve is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Steve stated that that’s a great question. Well, he thinks he probably alluded to it in the sense that they have worked for years to try and codify tools to help leaders do a better job in the visual world we live in. What they're working on at the moment and this is the thing which he smiles as he says it. They've run a B2B business up until this point, they've licensed kind of coaches and consultants to use their stuff.

But they're building a B2C app at the moment, which will take all of the Jedi mind tricks of the last 20 years about why people behave the way they do. They'll take the best of their tools, the best of what AI is able to do, and they will create a five voices out which will come your way later this year, which basically is your personalized coach in relation to, it will know your personality and your wiring. And it will basically customize content and learning for you and allow you to access it in the way that you most love to learn.

So, if you want podcasts, ebooks, audiobooks, but the idea really of actually rather than having to read one book, and we all read the same thing. He’s watching the ability to customize content in form and style that is unique to you as an individual. And he’s never seen that before.

So, he thinks communication code will be the last book they write in the late industrial format of a published book. He thinks they will customize content for individuals in formats and voices even and length of time, you'll be able to have your daily version of encouragement that will come straight to you when it comes, so that's what the team is working on at the moment. He gets to see all the progress week by week and minimum viable products is going to be ready for mid-May. So, watch this space for personality driven grows customized to you.

Where Can We Find Steve Online

LinkedIn – Steve Cockram

Email – steve@giantworldwide.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Steve Uses

When asked about quote that he tends to revert to, Steve shared that he’s got plenty of those. But probably the most common one is the Theodore Roosevelt quote when he talks about, “If he's going to fail, he would rather fail while daring greatly than be counted among those cold, timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” So, that's what he goes back to and just go, “If I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail while daring greatly, going after something big enough, that actually could make a dent and for good in the world.”

Me: Fantastic. So, we will have definitely have that quote in the show notes of this episode. So, just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Steve, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast and sharing about your book, The Communication Code, the five C's that you mentioned, how it works, the inner workings of why it's important to listen, asking the right questions, understanding that relational communication is definitely the epitome of where we're moving forward to in this world. And just how as human beings, we can utilize a lot of the cues and clues that are given to us to improve on how it is that we transmit the communication with each other. So, it was really insightful, and I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The 100X Leader: How to Become Someone Worth Following by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

• The 5 Voices: How to Communicate Effectively without Everyone You Lead by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

• The 5 Gears: How to Be Present and Productive When There is Never Enough Time by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

• How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

• The Communication Code by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

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Darby Vannier, with over 20 years of experience, is a seasoned leader adept at building and growing organizations. As President & CEO of Indispensable Leadership Group, he excels as an executive coach, consultant, speaker, and fractional COO, focusing on strategic and leadership development. He has led effective teams of more than a 100 employees, coached others into their own leadership positions, and created stability during challenging organizational transitions. Darby built his career on the philosophy that developing the right people is the key to success.

Learn more at www.beindispensable.com.

Questions

· Even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you are to where you are today.

· Your book titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? What was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?

· Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?

· Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. Explained to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.

· In the book, you also mentioned the whole conscious competence model. So, I'd love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.

· Could you also share with our listeners, what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it had a great impact on you.

· Can you also share with us what's the one thing in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, and the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

· Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights

Darby’s Journey

Me: Now Darby, even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Darby shared that it’s kind of a diverse career actually. So, he started off in retail, actually kind of in the entertainment industry, working as a manager at a 22-screen movie theatre, which is an interesting industry, especially back at that time when it was before digital movies and everything, and everything came in on natural celluloid film and everything.

So, yeah, 22 screen movie theatre, they would serve 1000’s of people a day and that was an interesting experience getting started because it definitely was jumping right into that retail type environment, bringing in at that point, you're talking about most of their employees were high school or college aged students and, and so that's just a different level of team member that you're managing.

From there, he kind of jumped even further into retail, he actually became a store manager for Kinkos at the time, so the print shop at Kinkos, which is now FedEx Office, but at the time, it was still Kinkos. And at that time, all the Kinkos were 24-hour stores, like they never closed, didn't close on any holidays, didn't close any hours, nothing. So, that was definitely a learning experience he will say, managing a 24 hour a day business from that standpoint.

And he did that about 6 years and then moved into the non-profit world where he took over as CEO of an International Livestock Association, actually for alpacas of all things. And it's always an interesting story because he tells people when he got the interview for the job, he had to look up what an alpaca was because he had a general idea that it was like a llama, but he didn't exactly know what it was, so kind of entered into a whole new realm there. And he did that for about 11 years where he reported directly to a board, grew that organization, fixed a lot of things in that organization, and then grew that organization. And then they actually went through a merger process and merged with another national organization. And he took over as CEO of the newly created merged organization for that industry.

And then from there, he decided, he’s kind of ready to be done with this non-profit thing, and he exited non-profit, went back into the for-profit world, joined a company that does leadership development, strategic planning, executive coaching, that sort of thing, because he’s always been passionate about leadership, and did that for about 7 years.

And then last year decided he’s going to break off and do his own things. He had a company established previously for some consulting and stuff that he had done and he just expanded that and started offering fractional leadership services and executive coaching on his own and have built that up from there. So, still working on that and that's kind of gets us up to date.

About Darby’s Book – The Indispensable Leader

Me: Now, as part of this journey, you are also an author and your book is titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book, I do have some questions I want to ask specifically, but I kind of just want to hear in your own words, like what was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?

Darby shared that the book is really geared towards anybody, he wouldn't even say young leaders, he would say anybody who's really either starting out in leadership, leading other people or even if they have been leading people and they just want to have some experience and some knowledge to refine maybe their leadership style.

And it's kind of one of those things, he’s kind of kept stories over the years throughout his career, because he’s sure you have experienced throughout your career, you encounter interesting things, he'll just put it that way, some challenging things and some difficult things, and then some really exciting things.

So, he had lots of things that he has accumulated throughout his career that he felt like these were good learning experiences for him at the time, and had he had this information when he was starting out being a leader, it would have been highly beneficial.

So, in the midst of COVID, back in 2020, when everything kind of shut down, and we all had more time, because we were staying home and everything, he decided that seems like a good time to start writing a book. So, that's when he started on the book.

And the book really kind of goes down the path of taking this idea, he started off the book by basically saying, you hear people say this question….”Are you a manager? Or Are you a leader?”

And he really attacks that and he say, we're really looking at that wrong, because he thinks that's the wrong question. It assumes that people who would probably consider themselves managers of things, cannot be good leaders and that's not the case. He knew a fair number of people who definitely consider themselves managers, who are really spectacular leaders as well.

So, he kind of asked people to look at it a little bit differently and what he thinks people mean is actually more of are you more manager oriented? Or are you more visionary and entrepreneurial oriented?

And if you think about that as a spectrum, everybody exists somewhere on that spectrum. And you don't want to be at the far end of either end of that because you don't want to be too high visionary, that you just come up with a lot of ideas and nothing gets done. But you don't want to be too far managerial where you only care about checking off your list, and you don't really care why you're doing it.

So, what he basically asked people to do is think about this more like a Venn diagram, where you have two intersecting circles and let's take the best traits of both manager and visionary archetypes, and create the best possible leader that you can be because there's only a certain amount of things that you have access to yourself, there's only a certain amount of things that you can gain yourself.

So, let's find those best things and then let's try to release the bad things so the bad traits of those archetypes so that we don't fall into those ruts as well. And he kind of goes down that journey and he uses a lot of stories from his career to illustrate various points on leadership and talking about mentorship and some of those things as well so that people can gain that knowledge that he didn't necessarily have at the time as he was going through it.

The Effectiveness of the Manager’s Role and the Leader’s Role

Me: So, I like the fact that you spoke about, are you a leader or a manager, but even outside of that you talk about in the book, just visionary leaders and I'm not sure what was the other term that you had outside of visionary? Managers.

So, can you just differentiate, I know you said, we look on it from a different perspective. But if we were to put it in terms of hierarchy, or better yet, in terms of in an organization, if you really want to motivate people, get them to do what you want them to do without having to literally stand up over them with a stick over their head saying, “If you don't do this, this is the sanction that's going to be enforced.” Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?

Darby shared that he would actually say both are important and it's good to have a mix of both types of individuals within an organization.

Here's the reason why. So, people with managerial characteristics who fall more on that side of the spectrum are people who are very process oriented, they're usually very organized, they're the ones who are able to look at something and say, here's how it's going to get done. They can outline the 50 steps it's going to take to get there. They're about creating a list and checking off the things and getting stuff done. They're the ones that are talking about, what are we going to do? And how are we going to do it?

And sometimes they don't always care about the why they should and that's what he means by making sure that they try to pull in the best traits of both worlds. But those are the folks who are going to get stuff done for you. And they are the folks who can execute on a vision. So, basically, they can take a vision of a founder or a visionary and they can translate that vision into the action steps that it's going to take to accomplish it.

So, on the visionary side, you have to have visionaries as well, because the high visionary people, those are the folks who are generating lots of ideas, they're coming up with five or ten new ideas every day, they're usually very passionate about their ideas.

Oftentimes entrepreneurs are visionaries, because that is the type of individuals who are drawn to starting a business and taking that risk and everything. Because in their minds, when they think of an idea, when they envision something, it's done like we're there, and it is done. They're the ones that are more going to be talking about why are we doing something, like they want to be able to explain and show their passion for why is it that we want to accomplish whatever it is that they've come up with.

The difficulty you can run into with a visionary though is, is that they tend to move on very quickly, because if you get a very high visionary person, they only love generating new ideas, they don't want to talk about how to get there, they just want it done.

So, that visionary needs to have people who are more managerial in nature so that they can actually get stuff done. And in most companies, you almost have to have two top individuals who are one is one and one is the other.

That's why you often see a CEO whose high visionary and you see a COO who is the person who executes and those two individuals have to have a high amount of trust, because they will piss each other off and that's the bottom line.

Because what will happen is, is that COO who's more process oriented, who's the one going, “Okay, there's these 50 problems we have to solve before we can get there” they are going to be like saying slow down and pump the brakes, we got to back up here.

And the high visionary CEO is the one saying, “No, we got to move forward. And I want to do all these things, and everything.”

So, in order for their company to be highly successful, you almost have to have that mix. You see this with celebrity leaders he'll call him. So, people like Steve Jobs, for example, it's well known that he was very high visionary, brilliant guy, came up with amazing things, had very high expectations, very passionate about his industry.

But he learned very early on, he basically lost his company initially, before he came back many years later, he learned very early on that he needed to have people that could execute those ideas, because he just wanted to spend time on generating ideas, he needed an execution team as well.

So, eventually, he figured out he had to have individuals who worked with him that he trusted, that could execute those ideas that could challenge him and slow him down, he would on the opposite side of that push them forward. So, it's this weird balancing act. So, every company needs to have a good mix of both in order to be successful.

The Art of Being Curious as a Leader

Me: Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. And curiosity sometimes I think can be misinterpreted, sometimes, for example, people will think that curiosity I find is being inquisitive, it's a similar adjective but inquisitive for some reason connotates, almost you being concerned or asking questions about things that should not concern you. But I do believe that that's how we learn right? About asking questions, exploring, experiencing. Explaine to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.

Darby shared that it certainly can mean inquisitive and that is something that it can mean. But when he talks about being curious and when he coaches leaders and encourage them to be curious, what he’s really trying to do is encourage folks to be lifelong learners, like he wants you to be curious about new things, go read books, go meet new people, go join a group that you wouldn't necessarily join because by gaining those additional experiences, and that additional knowledge, you're only going to grow as a leader. So, he’s very big on making sure that folks that he coaches and himself, do not get stagnant.

And what that means is you have to be engaged, you have to be engaged in what you do. You have to be engaged in your industry, you have to be engaged in life. So, sometimes it's professional development, and you're joining an association or you're reading a book or whatever.

Sometimes it might be personal development where you're learning a new language or travelling to a country that you've never been to so that you can gain that experience because all of those things are important. They are going to make you a much, much better well-rounded leader, especially as he speaks to college students every now and then.

And as he speaks to college students, that's one thing that he talked to them about is gain a broad set of experiences because a lot of us really end up, in the United States, a lot of folks who go to college end up going to college nearby home, so, they're exposed to, yes, a new set of people, but it may be very similar to what they're used to. So, he encourages people to get out of your comfort zone and go do some other things because the more experiences you have, the better leader you're going to be.

Certainly, looking back at his career, he’s sure as you look at your career, every single thing that he dealt with and went through, all of that past history really made him into the leader that he is today. And everything that he’s doing today will make him into the leader that he is in five years, that's the bottom line.

So, you got to have that curiosity, if you don't, you're going to end up stagnant, you're not going to really grow as a leader, you're probably not getting promoted up very much. In most industries, you really do need to be curious so that you can continue to expand as well.

Me: Yes, I totally agree that you should definitely be open to learning and from everything that you do, it definitely adds to who you are today, as you said, what you're doing now is building for where you're going be five years from now.

Conscious Competence Model and the Four Phases

Me: In the book, you also mentioned Darby, and I was exposed to this many years ago when I had done a leadership course myself, the whole Conscious Competence Model. And I liked the example that you gave with the baby. So, I'd love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.

Darby shared that this is something that really helps in coaching as well, because it's something that everybody goes through, but they don't really pinpoint that they're actually going through it.

So, the idea here is there's four phases of competence. And you really start off no matter what it is, in some new experience, in some new activity, you start a new job, you learn how to drive, whatever it is, you start off this idea as being unconsciously incompetent, which means you're incompetent at whatever you're doing, and you don't even know you're incompetent at it. And that's a big problem because then you're doing things and you don't even know you're doing them wrong.

So, the idea is, hopefully somebody will point out to you or you'll eventually move into the idea of conscious incompetence. And that's really where you're still incompetent at it, but you recognize that you're incompetent at it. So, you know, you're doing it wrong, it's kind of a situation, you know that you don't know something.

And then after that, the idea is that you move into conscious competence, which means that you're competent at it, but you have to think about it all the time, it's not become a habit, like you have to actually think about whatever the activity is. So, if you think about when you're learning to drive, this is a good thing. Or this is a thing we encounter, you have to constantly think about turning your turn signal on or stopping at the stop sign or stopping at the light or seeing the light turn yellow, or whatever that is, you are at that point consciously competent. So, you can do it, but you got to think about it all the time.

The last phase is really where you want to get to, especially with regard to leading people, you want to get to unconscious competence, where it is that you are competent at something and you don't have to constantly think about it, it just happens. So, this basically is the idea of it becomes habit.

There's actually an author named Charles Duhigg, he wrote a book called The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, it's a spectacular book, but he talks about habit loops where your brain is set up so that it creates these habit loops out of things that you do regularly. And that's how you end up, if you've ever driven a car, and then you're driving along, and sometimes you're like, I don't remember the last five minutes, and it kind of freaks you out. That happens because of that, because your brain can handle that sort of thing. And basically, has created a habit loop.

It's the same reason when he left his position last year, and he was no longer going to the office on a regular basis, your habit loop changes. So, normally my habit loop for driving to the office was the same every day, he would do the exact same thing, the exact same route, whatever it was, well, on two different occasions, at the end of the year, last year, he was driving in the direction of where his old office was. And he looked up and pretty soon, like he’s driving towards the office, he’s going the whole wrong direction for where he was headed. But his brain engaged this habit loop that his brain thought, “Oh, you're doing the habit loop, we haven't done in a while to go to the office.” And then he ended up on the entirely wrong road and everything because he was going to the office. But that's the idea of unconscious competence that you want to get to is be able to create those habits so that things just happen for you on a regular basis.

Me: So, just want to remind our listeners, Darby's book is out, available on all platforms that you would want to purchase a book from, I would definitely recommend that you go and consume some of the great content he has in it. I haven't fully finished reading it, but the parts that I have been able to garner were really, really insightful. And he was able to share a bit of it with our listeners in the conversation today. So, definitely a must have read for 2024. Thank you so much for sharing Darby.

App, Website or Tool that Darby Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Darby shared that from his perspective, it's LinkedIn just because of the industry that he’s in. It is definitely the one online resource he could not live without. There's a lot of things out there, of course, especially with social media, and everything nowadays, it really depends on the industry individuals are in but for him, LinkedIn is it and definitely those who are listening, you can find him on LinkedIn, he will connect with you just search for Darby Vannier, and he’s happy to connect with you on LinkedIn as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Darby

When asked about books that has had a great impact, Darby shared that there is lot of books that certainly he has utilized over the years. But there is one book that he has bought and given away more copies of this book than any other book.

And it's a book called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, it's by a woman, her name is Susan Cain. And it's about kind of leading as an introvert. And the reason that he liked it is that he knows it doesn't always seem like it to individuals when he does these podcasts that he loves to speak to people and stuff like that. But he’s a pretty big introvert. And it was the first book that he read that he was like somebody actually gets him.

So, she kind of talks about what it's like to be an introvert and how it's kind of a spectrum. And there are certainly individuals who are introverts who have no desire to speak to people, for example. Whereas, he loves that, if he gets a group of 1500 people to speak in front of great, he’s happy. Now, he doesn't want to step down off the stage and talk to you one on one really, afterwards, he'll do it. And you won't necessarily know that he’s uncomfortable. But that's not his comfort zone.

So, every introvert’s a little bit different and it's more about how your energy is recharged. So, his energy is recharged by quiet time and being alone. He has no problem going on a vacation for a few days and being by himself the entire time and not talking to anybody, that would freak out an extrovert. But the reason he loves the book is and that he’s given it to both introverts and extroverts. And the reason it's important for extroverts to read as well is you work with a lot of introverted individuals and this world we live in is catered to extroverts. And it can be incredibly difficult for those of us who are introverts to live in. And we are forced to adjust to you all.

So, he encourages extroverts to read this book as well, because you really learn a lot, especially as you lead and manage people, it will help you better manage individuals, it will also help you understand how to take advantage of utilizing the skills and the experience of introverts that maybe an extrovert doesn't necessarily have. So, from a professional standpoint, he always recommends, he also recommend it for individuals who are married, who have spouses who maybe are the opposite of them, because it will help you to totally understand your spouse a lot more as well.

What Darby is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Darby shared that he’s still under a year on totally breaking out on his own and building his own company. So, building his business is what he’s really passionate about right now. He’s working on a new speaking topic regarding the impact that leaders make in the world and even over interactions that they might have considered insignificant. So, it's kind of like the ripple effect, so he’s working on this talk and he’s excited about that as well to be able to talk to folks about that.

And then just really working to help each one of his fractional leadership clients be as successful as possible. It is so amazing to be able to work with multiple clients and see individual companies continue to grow and scale and to have a part in that as well.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Darby Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Darby shared that he doesn't really have a quote, but he kind of have more of a philosophy and his philosophy with this. And he uses this again when he coaches other leaders too is, “Everything is temporary. And the one thing you have to remember is, is that everybody around you is going through their own stuff.” So, he always encourages people to be kind when you're dealing with other individuals, because you don't know what's going on in their lives, no matter how well you think you know them, you don't know everything that's going on. So, as he encounters adversity, he tends to kind of revert back to, “Okay, let's control what I can control. And then I need to let the other stuff go.”

He certainly has had multiple times in his career where he’s had some very difficult situations that he’s dealt with professionally. And that's what he’s come back to is okay, can you control this particular thing that's happening? No. But you can control these other two aspects of it and you can make sure that you do those things really well.

And what he has found is if he does that, and he just remember that this is just one more piece of experience in his life and in his career, part of that past history that he said that makes us all who we are, if he can remember that, then it's usually easy to get through those things. Not that it's not a challenge, still can be a challenge, still can be stressful, but it does definitely help you as you move through those challenging times.

Me: All right. So, we will definitely have that summary of what you shared with us in terms of that, quote, or that thought, that helps to get you from one stage to the next if for any reason you feel derailed.

Where Can We Find Darby Online

Website – www.beindispensable.com

Facebook - Indispensable Leadership Group

LinkedIn – Indispensable Leadership Group

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/darbyvannier/

Me: Now Darby, thank you so much for hopping on our podcast today and sharing all these great insights from your book, as well as all of the experience and exposures that you've had over the years that have crafted the person that you are today and the invaluable knowledge and experience and coaching that you've been able to offer to your clients. And so, the information that you shared with us was extremely valuable. The examples that you gave, the characteristics and the comparison as it relates to having a bit of both is critical to the organization success as a manager and a leader was really, really, really insightful and I just want to extend a great amount of gratitude to you for taking time to share with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Indispensable Leader: How to Use Your Inner Manager and Visionary to Achieve Leadership Success by Darby Vannier

• The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg

• Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking Susan Cain

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View Details

Barry Klein is Vice president of Success and Enablement at Austin-Based Talroo, the data driven job and hiring event advertising platform that helps businesses reach the candidates they need to build their essential workforce. Barry provides leadership to Talroo’s team of Customer Success Analysts who have both revenue and customer service responsibilities for multiple verticals.

Passionate about establishing “customers” as “partners”, he focuses on long-term relationships, lifetime value and establishing raving fans. With more than 30 years of experience in customer-facing and executive roles, including Vice President of Sales Engineering for Vignette Corp, Barry also spent several years running his own small business and consultancy. Barry holds a BS in Computer Science from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.

Questions

· We always like to hear from our guests in their own words, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

· Can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you believe recruitment is so important as it relates to customer service delivery?

· In terms of how do we hire well and focus on cultural alignment? And I imagine this begins in the interview process. What are three main things that you believe if you're tasked with that responsibility for an organization, where would you put your focus, maybe three top areas that you put your focus on if we're trying to get cultural alignment?

· Now, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Can you share with us also, what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or there was an obstacle or hurdle that was presented to you and it caused you to not be on track but when you thought of that quote or when you recited that quote, it kind of got you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Barry’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So, I know we read your bio that gives us formally how it is that you got to where you are today, but we always like to hear from our guests in their own words, how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

Barry stated that he appreciates Yanique asking and thanked her for mentioning his alma mater, RPI. As he said, he was a Computer Science Major and he was in college in the late 80s. So, the world of programming was very different than it would be today. But he wrote a lot of codes, in fact, when he went to his parent’s house years after he graduated, and he saw the Dot Matrix Paper printouts of the code he had written, he was like, who wrote this, he couldn't in a million years, he couldn't have recreated that code.

But by the time he graduated college, he knew that while he enjoyed coding very much, and it was why he went to get a computer science degree, he done enough. And what he became intrigued about was the intersection of the technology and people.

And his first roles out of college were not really tech support per se but sort of high-end engineering support for customers who are developing with their platform and that led him closer to customers.

And what he found he really enjoy and what he imagines he’s best that if he has to choose his best skill is, is explaining and painting a picture about technical topics for non-technical folks, that is very gratifying.

It's allowed him to have experience both with frontline decision makers, frontline influencers at any given customer, as well as executive suite folks who need these pictures drawn and need that insight. And he really enjoyed that, and he especially enjoy not only doing that himself, but enabling teams to do that with best practices, all the nuance that you need when you're in that customer facing role, whether it's pre sales or post sales, not just what you say, but how you say it. All of those things come together to create the kinds of roles that are always dynamic, and no two days are ever the same.

The Importance of Recruitment as it Relates to Customer Service Delivery

Me: So, a big part of what you're doing at your current organization is recruitment, correct? So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you believe recruitment is so important as it relates to customer service delivery, maybe connect the dots so that our listeners can have a good understanding of why having good recruitment techniques is critical to ensuring that you are aligned properly to get the kind of deliverables that you're looking from as it relates to customer service.

Barry shared that it is an interesting intersection because the skills and mindset of customer success folks is something that would exist regardless of what the industry you happen to be in is, but in their case, because Talroo is a talent matching platform that strives to match opportunities, especially for frontline workers with having the frontline worker at the right job, in the right place, at the right time, for the right price, so that they get the happy connection between an employer who needs the talent and the person who has the talent, making that connection is very gratifying and their entire platform is aligned around that.

And it does create an interesting mindset for them because they're helping employers recruit and then you say, “Well, how does that affect our own recruitment? What are we looking for? What are the processes? Everything from how do we source our candidates to how do we interview them to how do we determine their cultural alignment with our organization?”

So, all things recruitment is really near and dear to their heart.

And the other thing that makes it fun is, what they do is at an intersection of such a huge part of the economy, he can't read a newspaper or put on CNBC or watch a business channel, and not have them talking about the unemployment rate and the impact. So, they are really in the forefront of all of that.

But one of the things that they've really been focusing on as they craft where Talroo is going is very personal to him in terms of how he recruits and who he hires and who he looks for. One of the things they're seizing on as sort of their mission is improving the lives of both employers and candidates, one person at a time. And he loves that tagline because it captures how personal it is, it's one person at a time.

And he believes in a leadership role, the single most important thing that you can do is hire well, that is absolutely the single most important thing, if you hire well, most things take care of themselves, you hire well, you train well and you correct hiring problems quickly, if you've made a mistake, if you don't have that proper connection, that's always very painful, if you have to do that.

And then really the role he believes of a leader is to create the environment in which these talented people who are motivated and intelligent, where they can succeed. So, he often says he doesn't do any real work, the thing that he’s most proud of is creating an environment in which these folks can succeed, get the political stuff out of the way, and set them up for success. And if we found the right people who are customer success oriented, whether that service-oriented heart, they can then teach them what they need to know about their technology, their solution, but if they are the right cultural fit and the right kind of person, then they're 80% of the way there.

Areas to Focus On To Achieve Cultural Alignment

Me: So, I like the fact that in your explanation just know, you spoke about cultural alignment, and I think I would love for you to go a little bit more granular as it relates to that in terms of how do we hire well and focus on cultural alignment? And I imagine this begins in the interview process. Are there some key questions that you think may need to be asked? Does it boil down to the advertisement that you put out in terms of who you're attracting to apply in the first place? Where do you start? And maybe what are three, I would say main things that you believe if you're tasked with that responsibility for an organization, where would you put your focus, maybe three top areas that you put your focus on if we're trying to get cultural alignment?

Barry stated that it is a huge topic for them and in fact, he was just speaking with her CEO and they were thinking back on some candidates who didn't work out, not his organization per se, but across the company.

And in every case, when they violated in a sense their own rules, not that there are hard and fast rules, but when they looked past a lack of cultural alignment, the candidate didn't work out.

And they have a very formal process whereby, typically, it's done by their HR Department as part of the interviewing cycle, where a series of questions that are available are asked, in theory, the same topics would have come up in the other interviews with you want a candidate to meet some peers, of course, he interviews them as the hiring manager, and then they meet with HR.

And he will tend to focus on interpersonal relationships and problem solving. When you look at their values and we've written them down and he thinks so many companies these days happily have their pillars of their culture on their website, whether they live by them, it's hard to say. He appreciates candidates who challenge them on those things and want to make sure that it's real.

But they talk about things like being customer first, they talk about teamwork, they talk about accountability. He will and others, he will focus very much on the teamwork aspect of things and conflict resolution all with an eye toward, are we doing the right thing for their customer and for themselves, he can become a Johnnie one note around win-win scenarios. He has no interest in someone who is so accommodating of a customer that they might put his company at risk.

They look for partners and they don't say that in a glib fashion or as a soundbite, it's true. The nature of their business is such that if they have a customer who just wants them to service them and does not want to meet them at an appropriate point, in terms of communication and keeping data flowing and sharing reality, what's going on, if they're not a real partner, they don't do well with them.

And so, he needs customer success folks who understand that, who understand how to deal with conflict, who can navigate the complexities of those interpersonal relationships.

So, they'll ask questions around, of course, “Give him a scenario where you and a colleague were out of alignment and in disagreement, what did you do?” And you will hope that the candidate is honest and doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, normally you can figure out if they're telling you what you want to hear.

But that ultimately leads them to the single most important question in their values alignment survey when they take a candidate and they ask them to meet for half hour with their HR Department, the single most important question came out of a real life scenario with their CEO actually, where it led to the following question, “You go to a restaurant and you have your iPad on the front seat of your car, you park your car, and you don't lock the door, when you come back, the iPad is gone. Whose fault is it?”

And it's a fascinating question because what they are looking for is, “It's my fault.”

It doesn't mean the thief doesn't have some accountability.

And it doesn't mean that the restaurant might not have a more secure parking lot.

But in the end, you left a valuable item out in the open with an unlocked door, they didn't even have to smash the window, they just opened the door and took your very expensive piece of equipment. How do you not think that was my fault? I live in the real world, I have to have accountability for that kind of thing.

It leads to interesting discussions; they've had discussions around none of us ever want to blame a victim in the course of a crime being committed.

And the reason he liked that scenario so much is the car wasn't even violated. Were you a victim? Or were you just dumb? You invited someone you say, “Please rob me!”

If he leaves his front door unlocked, okay, you blame the thief, you shouldn't be robbed, society shouldn't allow that to happen. But you know what, he lives in the real world, he locked his door when he leaves.

So, those kinds of questions really matter. And that question in particular, and he will tell you, he’s very pleased, their candidates are honest, and their HR folks take very good notes, offer their own opinions. He'll go into their ITS and read those notes. And that's the question he’s looking for.

Are you personally accountable for your actions?

You can give 10% to the thief and you can give 10% to the to the restaurant, but if you're not thinking that you're 70% or 80% responsible for that, you might be looking for excuses as to when things don't go your way. And they're just too small a company too and they wear too many hats for anyone who has that opinion.

Me: Wow, I love that question. Thank you so much for sharing very, very good one.

App, Website or Tool that Barry Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Barry shared that it's funny, he hates to have it be the technological death star of our industry that he’s dealt with since he got into technology. But really it's their day to day tools with Microsoft, they are a Teams shop and they are finding more customers who are using Teams, of course you have Teams aficionados, and you have a lot of folks who are passionate about Slack. But they're using Teams and informally don't tell their IT Department they have some Slack channels going too. But that kind of real time communication with themselves because his team is fully remote. And so, their ability to stay in real time communication and in many cases in real time communication with their customers is proving ever, ever more valuable, they couldn't live without it at this point.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Barry

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Barry shared that it's fun to think about, currently he’s been enjoying reading history, the historian and he is a professor at Vanderbilt University, Jon Meacham is his name. He's the kind of fellow who when he's a guest on a news programme, and he finds him and he sees him, he’s actually glad they're talking about it. He’s hoping there's a way to sign up for when is Jon Meacham going to be on TV so he can go find him. He hangs on his every word and it's the kind of guy you kind of wish he was your grandfather telling you stories about the world in the past.

His biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson have been his latest readings. And he enjoys that because, a, he enjoys the break from technology and what they do every day, get his brain around something else. But it's the lessons from these great thinkers like a Thomas Jefferson as presented by a great thinker in the form of Jon Meacham where he finds himself reading his books with a highlighter, because it's not just the observations, the historical observations, but his observations when he ties these topics together. So, he always finds that fascinating, especially from a leadership standpoint.

And it's funny, the other thing that comes to mind is, it's again, he’s so much older than probably many of the listeners, but when he was in high school, he read a book by a gentleman named Roger Kahn, he became famous for his book, The Boys of Summer, which was about the 1950s, 40s and 50s, Brooklyn Dodgers.

And he wrote a book called Good Enough to Dream. And it was about his ownership stake in a minor league baseball club in Utica, New York. And the opening line has stayed with him, “The first dream full of innocence and sunlight is to play the game.” which he always loved. But early in the book, he says to someone who's associated with the team, “Are these guys any good?” And the response was, “They’re good enough to dream.” And that has always stayed with him. “Am I the best at something? Is my company the best at something?” He doesn't know, but they're good enough to give it a try and see where it leads them. And that's always stayed with him.

What Barry is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Barry shared that within his organization, he doesn't mind doing a commercial for the product Gainsight, which is the customer success platform. They recognized about 15 months ago as Talroo was growing both in terms of their customer base and their staff, that as a Salesforce shop and as a Microsoft shop, the needs for customer success weren't being met, in terms of what do they need to record? What do they need to predict? Do they have a sense around who will keep their contracts going, versus who is at risk of cancelling.

Just as a quick sidebar, Talroo, unlike a typical SaaS company does not have a long-term contract, they have to earn their customers business every month, they can cancel at will.

And so, it creates unique challenges and a real time need to know what's going on with each customer. And so, about 15 months ago, they embarked upon a project to implement a customer success platform. They ultimately chose Gainsight, he will say for anyone who is looking for a customer success platform, all of the players in the industry who they looked at were terrific, he doesn't think you could go wrong. ChurnZero to Tango, others, they were all first-class organizations, and they happened to choose Gainsight and that became an immediate game changer and continues to be.

And so, thank you for the question about what he’s focused on? Where are they growing? How are they evolving?

When they first rolled out Gainsight, it was primarily to support their efforts to track and manage and deal with renewals and even upsells are very important for upsells with their direct customers, employers who come to them and say, “Talroo will work with you directly to please advertise our jobs out in the world.” And that's what they really started with for the majority of their first year with the product.

But he has other caliber of customers who his team has to look after, including advertising agencies, and including job boards who they've had relationships with for years, who send them their jobs to advertise. And the needs are different across those different caliber of customers, and getting Gainsight rolled out now for the other members of his team and candidly getting adoption of it.

One of the things they've done very well and that he would encourage anyone thinking about any large software purchases, the people can kill a project. If any given team refuses to use Salesforce, Salesforce will fail. If any team refuses to use Gainsight, Gainsight will fail, people can win, and really torpedo a project.

So, they've done a really good job of getting buy in, forming a user council, the gentleman who is Andy Trevino, who is their administrator and RCS Ops Manager, who looks after Gainsight is always open to feedback, he's always soliciting feedback, so that they can make the solution match the way they work. He doesn't like software solutions where they have to change their behaviour in order to accommodate the tool, he wants the tool to accommodate the workflow and the processes that they already know work. And as they roll out the usage of Gainsight to this extended team, their needs are very different than their counterparts who work with their direct customers. So, getting that right is important.

And that accountability is incredibly important, because he no longer could afford and one of the reasons they went with Gainsight and started this whole project was when he wants to ask the very simple or get an answer to what he hopes would be a simple question of what's going on with fill in the blank of the customer name, it shouldn't take him 20 minutes to figure it out.

He needs all the information in one place and they're doing a terrific job of that with Gainsight with their direct customers, and getting members of his team who aren't used to it and haven't had to use it in the past, he needs to bring them along and their feedback. And he needs to make sure the product gets built out in a way that makes their lives easier, and that they see the value of it and that it's not just busy work, it's not just bureaucracy, it's that they really are using the product to make their lives better and then he gets what he needs in a leadership role, their C suite gets what it needs when they have questions about what's going on with the customer.

Many folks may have thought of this or use this line, traditionally, it's with Salesforce, they would say, on the sales side, if something isn't recorded in Salesforce, it didn't happen. That's the source of truth and that's where he’s going with Gainsight, if you don't have notes and details and specifics in Gainsight, then it didn't happen. And you don't want to do that for bureaucratic reasons, you want to do it because it makes the organization better and your customers more successful.

Me: Awesome. So, Gainsight is where you have most of your head wrapped around right now and just trying to build that out.

Where Can We Find Barry Online

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/klein-barry/

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Barry Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Barry shared that he has two, one is more serious than the other but the other, the funny one was his high school yearbook quote, but he will say plainly, he’s not a praying or religious person by nature, but he will go back to, “Dear God, grant me the strength to change the things I can, accept those that I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

It really gets hard to know where you need to invest your time and energy.

What should you care about?

What do you need to back off of?

What can't you change?

So, the wisdom to know the difference between what you can change and what you have to accept is something he thinks about a lot.

The more fun quote is from the old Mary Tyler Moore Show, in the episode in which the character Chuckles The Clown is tragically killed, because he is the master of ceremonies for a parade. And he gets run over by an elephant dressed as a peanut, which leads to a ridiculous number of jokes and things about a man dressed as a peanut killed by an elephant. But because he was a clown by nature, his quotes, and the things that he did become a big part of the show. And his (Barry) high school yearbook quote was, “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.” Moments of stress, you know what, how serious can life be? “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.”

Me: I love it. Okay, Barry, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on our podcast today and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to cultural alignment and recruitment, ensuring that you're getting the right fit to ensure that you're able to meet the deliverables and as you mentioned, just mitigating against the wrong fit and mitigating against challenges and issues that could have been prevented had the recruitment been aligned and selected properly from day one. So, I thought it was a great conversation and I just want to say, thank you so much for taking time and sharing with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power by Jon Meacham

• American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House by Jon Meacham

• The Boys of Summer by Roger Kahn

• Good Enough to Dream by Roger Kahn

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Cynthia Kay founded Cynthia Kay and Company media production which produces high-quality communications for organizations from Fortune Global 100 to small business. A graduate of Michigan State University, Kay holds a master's in communications from Western Michigan University.

Cynthia Kay is a passionate spokesperson for small business. For more than 35 years, she has spent significant time speaking to, teaching and coaching small-business owners while running her own award-winning company. She is the Past Board Chair of the National Small Business Association (NSBA).

Cynthia and the company have been honoured with many awards including many Tellys and Woman Owned Small Business Supplier of the Year from Siemens in 2018. She has been named one of West Michigan's 50 Most Influential Women five times, and is the recipient of over 30 broadcast awards from UPI, AP, and other news organizations.

CK & CO Cynthia has authored several books. Her newest book, Small Business, Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business (Career Press 2024) is available for pre-order and will be on May 6, 2024. She writes for Entrepreneur.com, has been featured in Time Magazine, Entrepreneur Magazine's Ask the Expert and on NPR.

Questions

· We always like to give the guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today. Could you share that with us?

· Your book, Small Business. Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about that book that you have coming up? And maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book represents.

· You've been in business for 35 years, so you've been through all phases of a business over 35 years, not to mention the different experiences that your businesses would have had as it relates to the different travesties that the world had gone through. If you were to pick, let's say, one characteristic that you believe was critical for you to ride the waves over all those years to the point where you are today, what do you believe that would be?

· Based on your experience, what would you say are maybe five common mistakes that you find small businesses tend to get themselves into? And if you could give maybe a recommendation for each as to how they could prevent themselves from getting trapped into that common mistake?

· Now, Cynthia, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Now, can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago or even one that you read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or there's an obstacle that comes in your way, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Cynthia’s Journey

Me: Now, even though we ask our guests to provide us with a bio, which you did, amazingly, thank you so much. And we do read the bio at the beginning of the show so the audience has a good idea of who we're interviewing and what they’re about. We always like to give the guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today. Could you share that with us?

Cynthia shared that for her, it's an interesting story, she hoped it will be for the viewers as well. She actually started her career in broadcasting and was working in the TV business for about 13 and a half years. But she always had in the back of her mind that she wanted to own her own business. And she grew up in a family owned business so she saw her dad and how he worked and how much he loved what he did and his customers.

And so, one day when she got fired and her dad always said, “Honey, you're no one till someone fires you.” She decided that rather than go and work for another television station and she had some opportunities to do that, she decided she wanted to bet on herself. And so, that's how she started her business.

About Cynthia’s Book – Small Business. Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business

Me: Now, you have a new book that's being published in a few months, it's called Small Business. Big Success: How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about that book that you have coming up? And maybe three overarching themes or tenets that the book represents.

Cynthia shared that she really believes that the best way for people to learn about business is by storytelling. And so, the book has not only her story, but stories of entrepreneurs and experts from all over the country. And frankly, that's what makes it so interesting because we all have stories to tell. But she’s segmented the book into stages and it is starting up, because the challenges at starting up are very different than the challenges for those who are in second stage or mature businesses.

And then she looks at success at operations because she thinks many small businesses, that's a place that's very difficult for them is to really figure out how to become operationally excellent.

And then success at growth because if we don't grow, we're actually going backwards.

And then finally success at stepping out. And someone asked her, “Well, why cover such a broad expanse in one business? Why not just talk out starting up or stepping out?”

And she said, when you take a look at the whole lifecycle of a business, if you understand that, especially at starting up, and you think about where do you want to end up? Are you growing a lifestyle business? Or are you growing a business to sell it?

If you are in a growth phase, what do you need to really think about? Sometimes it's digging back into what made you successful at start-up and visioning the future? And then also thinking about what kind of legacy do you want?

So, for her covering that expanse and she’s been in business now over 35 years, so she’s been through many phases of the business. She thinks has been reflective for her to kind of look at each one of those.

And there's lots of things that she talks about, she’s talked about customers, it's so important that we understand customers and customer services, it doesn't matter if you run a retail operation or a manufacturing plant or a technology company. But she thinks understanding customers, that's a big overarching theme.

Communications is huge, because it impacts so much of our business, and then also leadership, what does it take to lead a successful enterprise?

One Characteristic That Entrepreneurs Need to Survive Downturns in an Economy

Me: So, lots of very critical components that you mentioned in the book to running a business. Now, I know you told us about the overarching themes that the book represents and in your summary just now, you mentioned that you've been in business for 35 years, so you've been through, if not all, well, definitely all phases of a business over 35 years I'm sure. Not to mention the different experiences that your businesses would have had as it relates to the different travesties that the world had gone through, so the pandemic and before that the recession in 2008. So, you'd have had different experiences that different economies would have experienced, that the world experienced. If you were to pick, let's say, one characteristic that you believe was critical for you to ride the waves over all those years to the point where you are today, what do you believe that would be?

Cynthia stated that that one is easy for her. And she thinks this is something that people don't think about a lot, but it's passion. You have to have passion for what you do. If you don't have passion, you cannot survive all of the challenges that you have. She has experienced at least two downturns in the economy and COVID, obviously was huge. But if you don't love what you do, if you don't get up every day, and say, “Wow, what can I do today to make this business better? What can I do today to serve my customers?”

If you don't have that passion, it's easy to get discouraged and she thinks it's easy to give up. And frankly, the businesses that she sees that kind of wither away, it's because they've lost that passion for what they do, it becomes routine and ordinary and in this world, especially in the world of business, you can't survive if it's just same old, same old, you must consistently innovate and to do that, you have to have passion.

Me: So, passion is a number one thing that was able to carry you through. Fantastic, thank you for sharing Cynthia.

Common Mistakes that Small Businesses Make and How to Avoid Them

Me: Now, Cynthia, I'm sure in running a business, there are some common mistakes that sometimes business owners will make, right, regardless of the type of business you're in, whether it's product based or service based. Based on your experience, what would you say are maybe five common mistakes that you find small businesses tend to get themselves into? And if you could give maybe a recommendation for each as to how they could prevent themselves from getting trapped into that common mistake?

Cynthia shared that she thinks the first one is not doing their homework. She thinks so often people believe they have a great idea or a great product, but they're somewhat clouded by their own bubble, by their own world. And so, one of the things that she will tell you is not doing your homework, not going out and saying to someone, not just do you like my idea, or do you like my product? But will you pay for it?

So, that's the first one. And the way that you really avoid that common mistake, quite frankly, is to do your research, and to go out and not be afraid to ask the questions. And sometimes she will tell you, she has put in place some efforts that she had to abandon because while she thought it was a great idea, she didn't maybe do enough of the homework to really understand if it was going to be successful. So, that'd be the first one.

And then the second one is financially, can you really withstand the pressures that it takes. So, when she started her business, the first six months, she didn't even take a salary. And she thinks that's very common for a lot of business owners is that they invest in their business. So, are you able to financially withstand what it takes to be able to get through those first really tough years? So, do you have the financing? Do you have the capital? Can you withstand that interim start-up period where you really need to make sure that you have a lot of cushion maybe is the right way to say it.

The third mistake that a lot of business owners make is that they take whatever customer comes to the door and she made that mistake when she first got started, she was so concerned about is she going to be able to pay the rent, that she maybe took customers that she shouldn't have taken because they didn't align with the goal and the core products and values that they had and that's a hard one is to say no to a customer. But if you're getting customers in the door that are taking up your time and taking up your energy and not going to help you move forward, then she thinks that that's a big mistake. And as a result of having made that mistake after she was in business for a while, she kind of had to send customers away and that's very difficult. So, having a good idea of who that ideal customer is and really knowing that.

She thinks communication is a big one. Frankly, she thinks communication is something that business owners don't really spend enough time on, they believe if they have a great product or a great service, that's enough and it's not. You have to be able to articulate your value, you have to be able to communicate that value to your employees because that's so critical because it's not just you, unless you're going to be a solopreneur, which is fine. But if you're going to build an organization, you have to be able to communicate with your employees, you have to be able to educate them, have them understand what the value is of the business, and then being able to communicate to customers. The number one complaint that customers have today is sometimes they lack the communication from businesses, even if it's simply, “I got your phone call and I got your order, and we'll get back to you.” But being able to communicate and being able to articulate is a big one.

And then she thinks the other mistake that she thinks a lot of small businesses make is they don't build an external team that can help them, because as a business owner, you're an expert in what you do, but that doesn't mean that you're an expert in all things.

And so, building that really critical team of outside resources, she likes to say who can keep you out of trouble because sometimes you get into trouble because you don't know enough. So, having that critical team of people that you can trust and can go to, she thinks that's it. So, those will be she thinks the five things that she would say are really important.

App, Website or Tool that Cynthia Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Cynthia shared that when she saw that question, she was like, there's lots of things she can't live without. Cynthia estimated that because of the business that she’s in, they have a tool, it's called Function Point that coordinates all of the efforts. In media production and in communications, consulting, there are so many pieces of every single job that all have to align and being able to track where something is and being able to understand who on the team is doing what, it's a communications tool.

Now, that may be one that it's for creative agencies, but there are other tools. SharePoint, she thinks is a fabulous tool for keeping people really focused. So much of what we do today, there are so many pieces of information and keeping it organized she thinks is the biggest nightmare or it can be the biggest advantage. So, some sort of a communication tool that allows you to track and be able to measure where you are is really critical.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Cynthia

When asked about books that has a great impact, Cynthia shared that there are two that she really loves. And the one is Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins and she’s read that book maybe twice and should go back and read it again. But the reason that she loves that book is that she thinks there is such a difference in just being good and really having a company and growing a company that is excellent. And she thinks today good is just the baseline, everyone expects if you're in business that you're good, but can you be great? So, that's one.

The other one that she really likes is The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen Covey. We as people sometimes think we're effective, but we might be missing something. So, those are two that she really loves. And she'll be honest, she hasn't been doing a lot of reading lately, mostly because she’s been doing a lot of writing, so, she’s been reading her own book. But she does have a list of other books coming up that she would like to read.

And then there's one other one that over the years she’s kind of steered people to and it's called Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Other Don’t by Simon Sinek. And she thinks so much of the success of organizations and businesses really rests with how effective is the leader, because the business takes on sort of the personality of the leader. So, that's a book that she always recommend because she thinks this idea of servant leadership is one that really can catapult an organization ahead.

Where Can We Find Cynthia Online

LinkedIn – Cynthia Kay

Website – www.cynthiakaybiz.com

Website – www.thinkck.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Cynthia Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Cynthia stated that it's interesting, there are so many quotes that she loves, but her father was a huge influence in her life and there's a quote that her dad always used to say when she faced adversity, and she was struggling and didn't know what to do and he would always say, “Do what's in your heart.” And she really believes that if you look inside, you often know the answer. And so, that's one that she always remember, her dad always said, do what's in your heart.

And his second favourite one was, “They can't pay you enough money to do a job you don't love.” And so, that's her second one.

Me: I love it. Is the second one attributed from your dad as well?

Cynthia said absolutely. He was a wonderful businessman. He ran a small business with his two brothers and so much of what she thinks, they learned, they learned by osmosis. She learned a lot about business by watching her dad.

Me: That's fantastic. So, thank you so much for sharing those two quotes, we'll definitely have them in the show notes of this episode.

As we wrap up our episode, we would just like to extend our deepest level of gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast today and sharing about your journey, a little bit about your new book that will be released in May of this year. For those of our listeners that would love to tap into that resource, we'll have Cynthia's contact information in the links for the show notes of the episode so you can definitely follow along and just be abreast of when the book is going to be released and the different platforms that it will be available on so thank you again, Cynthia for coming on and we wish you all the very best.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins

• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen Covey

• Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t by Simon Sinek

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Serena Chan is a Research Advocate at Dovetail with a background in exploratory and UX research. She plays a pivotal role in crafting memorable experiences for customers, advocating for them within the company and partnering with people who do research to build a community and best practices at Dovetail.

Before joining Dovetail, Serena held UX design research and product roles across various industries, including health tech, entertainment and social enterprises. Passionate about democratizing research, she champions the importance of prioritizing insights from customer-facing teams to drive the development of truly customer-centric products.

Serena holds an MBA in Design Strategy from California College of the Arts, though her academic journey started with a Bachelor of Science in Public Health. Her early career spanned roles in public health, during with which she was inspired by the intersection of design thinking and global health at a transformative conference.

A poet and community gatherer, Serena leverages storytelling at work and leisure to facilitate a more deeply connected, equitable, and regenerative future for all.

Questions

· Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey.

· Could you tell us a little bit about Dovetail and what your company does?

· Now, as a subject matter expert in the area of customer experience, could you give us maybe two or three, I would say areas that you believe organisations need to focus on as we continue to traverse through 2024 and beyond?

· If you were to pick one organisation, what would be, let's say two or three characteristics that they have that makes you loyal to them and keep going back over and over again?

· Now, could you also share with our audience, what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read that have had a big impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it's had a great impact on you.

· Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Serena’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey. I know I read your bio, and it kind of gives us a quick summary of the journey that you did have to get to where you are today, but we'd love to hear from you, in your own words, how is it that you got to where you are today?

Serena shared that one of the earliest jobs she’s ever had was in customer service, customer experience. So, she thinks that's been quite the through line in her career and why she’s also sort of excited to be here today.

Starting from her first job in private tutoring when she was just in high school, to volunteer work and working in customer service jobs, there's some element of being of service and working with people that she was always drawn to. And after graduating college, it led her into the world of health tech start-up and joining a customer success team for the very first time.

And for her, that was the first opportunity to really be that bridge between hearing their customer needs, and sharing that back with their product team, helping you have that informer product roadmap and innovation and business strategy. And working in that intersection, that hub really got her quite excited. So, that's kind of led her to continue to pursue her career from grad school to consulting and freelance work to now her work at Dovetail.

About Serena’s Company - Dovetail

Me: So, could you tell us a little bit about Dovetail and what your company does?

Serena shared that Dovetail is a leading customer insights hub, they work with lots of teams of folks, whether they're in user research, or product management, design, innovation, whether you're a software company, or they have some people also building physical products, some people building really large things in the world, like construction, machinery and things that are like tractors that farmers use to all kinds of software that we use in our day to day as well.

So, they are a platform where these teams are able to really harness the insights they're hearing from their customers, whether it's customer interviews or survey data, things ongoing like CSAT and NPS and sentiment and have that then inform better product and decision making across the business as well. So, the work she does at Dovetail is really closely partnering with their customer teams, and coaching them in best practices from onboarding and being successful in Dovetail to how they can further grow customer centricity and the culture of that at their organizations.

Areas Organizations Need to Focus on As it Relates to Customer Experience for 2024 and Beyond

Me: Now, as a subject matter expert in the area of customer experience, could you give us maybe two or three, I would say areas that you believe organizations need to focus on as we continue to traverse through 2024 and beyond?

Serena shared that we're all navigating so much change. And one thing that she always returned to is just talk to customers, it's easier said than done for a lot of people. In her role, she does work with customers in the day to day, so that makes her job a lot easier. But for other people who maybe it's not the majority of how they spend their days, it can be hard to really remember, oh, yeah, let me go and actually get in front of customers, if you can't talk to customers, that's kind of point one, than two like, really leverage the type of customer data you already have. So, honestly, most of the people at their company who are talking the most customers are sales, customer success and support.

And so, their product managers and their designers, they'll talk to customers, but they also try to go within their Dovetail workspace and pull from the interviews that they've already had, the customer calls their sales team has already had, the support tickets that have come through. So, if you can't go and talk to customers immediately yourself, then draw from those who are talking to your customers day in day out, that was kind of step two.

And then point number three is really trying to kind of complete the loop, she’s really lucky that their customers are also some of the best at giving feedback and sharing their insights and their requests, because they're also people in the space of customer experience. And so, trying to really complete that loop and try to bring them along the journey. They're trying to do more ways of running early beta and alpha kind of programmes to test new things. They're building up Dovetail, they're also trying to co design and really do more kind of participatory type of practices with their customers, bring them along the journey and have them be part of that process.

So, really, those three steps, talk to customers, the second, talk to the people who do talk to your customers, and also leverage the existing data you do have. And then the third being kind of complete that loop and really make sure you're integrating the feedback you're hearing into your product and business decisions, and then share it back to your customers, because they're always super appreciative to hear that you're taking the feedback and how quickly they're moving and iterating on that.

Me: Now, I heard you mention in your feedback just know in terms of the three areas that you believe organization should focus on, that you are blessed to have customers who are very willing and able to give feedback. I'm not sure if that's cultural, but if you could maybe just give us a little insight.

What if you are in a culture where it's hard to collect feedback from customers?

It's not very easy, they don't voluntarily give it to you and even when you intentionally seek it out, it's hard to kind of pin them down to get the information that you need from them.

What would be your best recommendation to approach if you're in a business like that?

Serena shared that think about kind of what are those first points of contact? Is it that someone is hearing about you through some marketing channels, or maybe they're talking to someone in the sales process, even those are important touch points and opportunities for insights, especially if you're trying to understand your customers motivations, their desires, she thinks those are actually some really powerful touch points that we can leverage more in general.

Of course, there are teams that go out and do proactive research, whether it's user research or usability testing, things like that. And they tend to rely a lot on that. But there's also so much room to lean on people in other functions as well who are talking to customers day in day out. And even if they're not existing customers, talking to prospectives is really helpful, too.

So, she learned a lot from sitting in with their sales team and understanding the needs and desires of their prospective customers and seeing how can they currently serve them?

Where are the gaps and opportunities?

And then how can she bring that back to their product team, their leadership team and say, “Actually, these are the current needs we're hearing from people, people who are interested in buying our software, or have similar visions and wanting to really grow customers centricity and these are the things they are asking for, which we may or may not have at the moment yet.”

So, she thinks these are some other kind of creative ways to talk to people who, unless you have a completely sales process where no one's talking to anyone, then that's maybe on the more rare side, but you probably have someone that's talking to your customers.

And then also, her bias too is in the onboarding process, they have a pretty hands off approach as well, you can definitely self-serve and leverage Dovetail Academy and kind of learn at your own pace. But then they also do have a team of customer success managers, and that's kind of where she started at Dovetail was actually in customer success.

And they work with so many customers in the onboarding process and that's also so much wisdom to learn what are your customers understanding, what is harder for them to understand, what are the common questions and challenges and pain points that are.

In many ways, empowering their customer success folks to basically be like their frontline design researchers in a way, they're the ones who are often closest to the day to day pain points, as well as their support team that their customers are facing.

So yeah, really explore kind of what are some ways you're already your current company is already talking to customers and try to get closer to those people sit in, sit along on their calls or watch the calls if they have that uploaded into a central place.

Characteristics of a Loyal Organization

Me: Now, Serena, as a customer, right, so I want you to kind of take yourself out of the role that you're functioning, providing service, but more so service being provided to you. If you were to pick one organization, and it's up to you if you'd like to share the organization, but I’m more focused on the traits or the attributes that the company has, if you were to choose one company that you really, really love? What would be, let's say two or three characteristics that they have that makes you loyal to them and keep going back over and over again?

Serena stated that she loves this question. For her, what's funny is actually, the farmers market came to mind, which isn't necessarily a company in a traditional sense, it's maybe more like a gathering place, a marketplace. But it's a place she loves and she thinks about why she loves it. And there's some amount of structure, you go and you know what to expect, you know what vendors are generally there but you also have options, you have a specific time and place as well. And for her, it's also this sense of community and kind of community gathering place, that's actually a big thing they're working to invest in and grow at Dovetail as well as how do they actually build a gathering place for people in research and design and product to come and gather and learn from each other. And she thinks that's a huge opportunity for a lot of companies to leverage that within their customer base.

So, for her, she personally as a customer really enjoy being able to just meet other people in a very casual sense and feel that sense of community, whether at a farmers market, they're her neighbours, or as someone in like a customer experience kind of space like that similar to maybe conferences or virtual or in person meetups and events that vendors or companies may hold. So, leveraging that aspect of community, and then also having an element of discovery. There's some things that she knows and she can rely on and there's some elements of novelty that also keep her coming back. So, that's what comes to mind for her.

App, Website or Tool that Serena Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Serena shared that she’s going to take it from a bit more of a personal approach to how she shows up in her work. And for her, it can be any kind of app, but for her, it's like a mindfulness practice app and tool, she sees that as very much a part of her professional toolkit.

She personally have really enjoyed the open app recently. And why she says this is because so much of the work she does is to witness and listen to their customers, to facilitate workshops, whether with customers or internally.

And she thinks so often, especially in the start-up world we’re really quick to want to fix things and want to solve things and iterate and pivot and all of that. And that's great, and it's necessary and it's important to move quickly. But if we're not taking the moment to pause and to truly listen and understand what it is our customers are sharing with us, and also how the greater industry and world is shifting to, then we can't do all the rest or it'll kind of be done in a haphazard way.

So for her, actually, her mindfulness practice, her kind of deep listening and meditation practice is a core part of how she shows up in her work and with her customers and also in holding space as she facilitates internally with her teammates as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Serena

When asked about books that have had an impact, Serena shared that she really loves Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert, this is a book all about the art of creative living. And for her, it has impacted both her professional and personal lives. And really the kind of one liner from it is like, “What is creative living, it's a life that is more driven by curiosity than by fear.”

She thinks one of her strengths and being able to navigate a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity, especially in the start-up world, is her ability to kind of lean into curiosity, and not just operate out of reactivity or fear or all of that.

And so, the more we're able to flex that and lean into curiosity when we're trying to understand our customers, lean into curiosity when there's a workplace challenge, or a product issue that comes up, lean into curiosity in terms of crafting our own careers and lives. This is kind of how we can apply that creative energy into how we show up in the day to day. So many of the listeners are deeply creative people whether or not you identify as an artist or designer or capital C creative person, but she thinks we as humans are deeply creative and the more we can channel that kind of energy, the better we are able to show up for our customers and our businesses and our communities and for the society as a whole.

What Serena is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about, Serena shared that she recently adopted a dog so she’s newly a dog mom. He is actually napping, napping right next to me right now! And something she’s learning is you never really know how it goes when you are trying to love and care and train a rescue dog.

He's brought so much joy into her life, he's brought a lot of wonderful trail runs and play and novelty and exploration. And she’s also lucky to have a dog friendly office so she brings him into work as well. And they like to joke that he's the Chief Vibes Officer. He's also bringing a lot of joy at work too, so in many ways, even though he is such a personal part of her life, he is also really helping her also build better bonds with her colleagues and he'll also show up in the back of a meeting room as she’s on a customer call.

And so, sometimes she thinks even just remembering like, we're all humans, we are all trying our best, and people will see her dog and kind of, it just creates that kind of human connection. So, it's been a very special time and she’s learning so much every day and celebrating all their little and big milestones as they go and that helps her remind herself of her capacity to keep growing and learning and adapting to change.

Where Can We Find Serena Online

LinkedIn – Serena Chan

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Serena Uses

When asked about quote that she tends to revert to, Serena shared that for her, it's “Ride the waves.” She’s a beginner surfer herself, but someone who's grown up swimming her whole life, so the water is a really restorative place for her but also challenging. She lives in San Francisco pretty close to Ocean Beach and these are some gnarly waves they get out there. And much with the tumultuous lives and professional worlds we live in and the changing world, sometimes all we can do is just show up and practice riding the waves and enjoying when things are calm, but also learning even when it feels stormy, we can get through it and just keep riding the waves.

Me: Well, thank you so much Serena for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on our podcast, sharing all of these great insights as it relates to customer experience, some of the things that you believe organizations need to be focusing on for 2024 and beyond. And of course, all the great things that your organization is doing. And we just really appreciate you taking time to share all of this great insight with us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

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Len Covello, Chief Technology Officer (CTO) at Engage People, leading the long-term technology vision of the company and is responsible for driving continued innovation in the loyalty sector. He is an innovator in the technology space and a thought leader in loyalty.

Len started his first technology company at the age of 18 and most recently was the Director and Chief Technology Officer with Access (formerly LRG Rewards). His passion is web-based application design and development across a wide variety of business applications, particularly in user interfaces and process automation.

He's an active member of Forbes Technology Council, a cornerstone of the Engage People executive team and member of the board of directors.

Questions

· We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, could you tell our listeners how it is that you got to where you are today?

· Now, could you tell our listeners just a little bit about what Engage People does?

· What are your views, and you can tell me, since you're a loyalty expert in terms of like cross exchanges. So, let's say for example, you have loyalty points from an airline, but you're able to use those loyalty points from the airline at a hotel, or maybe for an attraction that you'd like to visit. Have you seen those kinds of activities happening, is that something you see happening in the future?

· If you are to give our listeners maybe one or two trends that you see emerging in 2024 and beyond as it relates to loyalty and rewards and using it as a currency on its own, what would those be?

· Now could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· And could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Now, if you could choose one word or one attribute or characteristic that you believe a leader needs to have in order to have a team that is intrinsically motivated?

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Len’s Journey

Me: We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, could you tell our listeners how it is that you got to where you are today?

Len shared that it's one of those stories, he doesn't think it's a straight line to get here, when he was quite young, as mentioned that 18 he definitely enjoyed working with computers, building applications. But he was always tied to the user experience, he was always tied to that ability to make things run a little more efficiently. So, he started building just web applications, very crude back in the day, so, internet was still pretty young. And started building these solutions for different organizations and eventually met with a company that was in the loyalty space.

And they provided basically legacy loyalty, so, for those of us that remember you used to get a catalogue sent to your house, and it had some items that you could redeem from, and you'd either phone in or potentially fill out a form. And they talked with that organization about all the things they could bring there and that's what really started the precursor to engage was adding first solutions for the redemption and the fulfilment and then understanding more about the space and started as two of them and eventually, they ended up acquiring that company in the loyalty space that became their focus and turned into 150 plus people organization.

About Len’s Company - Engage People

Me: Now, could you tell our listeners just a little bit about what Engage People does? I know you mentioned that it's focused on loyalty but kind of give us a synopsis of what problem are you really solving for customers?

Len shared that they're a technology company at heart, loyalty just happens to be the discipline they play in. What they really like to do is innovate and impact an industry that they play in, and what they mean by that is in loyalty, it's been a pretty legacy solution based business he'd say where a lot of the advancements that they see in other industries didn't make its way to loyalty. So, what they do at Engage is they provide solutions to help organizations run loyalty programmes, and that can be on the earn side, so when you're a member of a programme and you swipe that credit card or tap that credit card, you earn some points.

They provide the solutions that a lot of financial institutions use to do that. But he thinks the really exciting thing about what they do is on the redemption side, so when a customer looks to use their points, and really a lot of advancements come there, and one of the things they do today is they're one of the leaders in the pay with point space.

And what that means for their customer is, instead of ordering from that website, or that catalogue, you can now go on to your favourite ecommerce store or pull up to a BP station, tap that card and use your points as a form of currency, so Engage really services the loyalty industry in those two spaces. But again, the exciting part is the pay with points.

Me: And what companies and industries do you think should consider implementing loyalty points as an alternative payment choice?

Len shared that really anyone that's taking any form of payment today, over the past few years they've seen some alternative forms of payments, whether it's different cryptocurrencies or even the BNPL solutions that exist, a loyalty currency is a funded currency, there's no risk with it, it's got that value, it's funded.

So, any company running a loyalty programme, whether it be a bank, a hotel chain, an airline, they're funding that currency, so if you're looking to accept payments, what you're really doing is exposing your members or your customers to use what effectively is a $200 billion a year currency that gets issued each year, so significant amount of money. So, he doesn't think there's really a specific industry that should accept this, it's all industries that are accepting any form of payment.

Me: And based on your experience in this space Len, could you give our listeners an example of, let's say an industry that the loyalty points works in, and that you found it to be extremely successful and of high value?

Len shared that one of the things that surprised them, so they do this today for companies like Amazon, so the everyday item that you're looking to make that purchase, you can now use your points to check out.

What they were really surprised with and pleasantly surprised is they brought this to the gas space, or the petrol space, depending what area of the world you live in. So, you can go and fill up your vehicle and tap your points and it presents a real time offer to the customer to use their points and they were amazed at the uptake on that because loyalty typically, people think of it as an aspirational type usage of points.

But what they've seen with the pandemic and even the way the economy is looking these days is a lot of people are using this to help subsidise just the increased cost of living or those everyday expenses.

So, it's been a pleasant surprise that through their technology, they allow customers now to offset those everyday expenses that they have. So, he would say those small items, purchasing a coffee that you would every day, and now being able to use your points, that's where they've seen really an incredible impact.

Me: And just listening to you speak, I'm here thinking too with loyalty points, well, at least for the ones that I redeem, for example, at my supermarket, I feel like I patronise this business on a weekly basis, monthly basis consistently and if I'm able to even get two grocery bills paid for fully with loyalty, I almost feel like I'm getting back some investment from doing business with this company over extended and consistent period of time. Is that pretty much how they sell the whole loyalty experience? Because what I found as well is a lot of companies sign you up for loyalty rewards, but then if you don't remember to ask, okay, so can these rewards be redeemed? How does it work? Typically, it just sits there and you don't even know you have points and then you heard they expired.

Len stated that that's really what they're seeing a lot of change in is, especially the programmes you don't interact with every day, like you mentioned, you're visiting that grocery store frequently and that relationship is what loyalty is, it's really a relationship, to use your words, you're going to patronise them by continuously shopping there, and they're going to give you something in return for that.

And that's where the currency really comes into play, it's letting you know that they value you coming back to that location, time and time again, and they want to give you something back, and really treat you a little different than any other customer that would just walk through the door.

Loyalty Programmes – Cross Exchanges

Me: What are your views, and you can tell me, since you're a loyalty expert in terms of like cross exchanges. So, let's say for example, you have loyalty points from an airline, but you're able to use those loyalty points from the airline at a hotel, or maybe for an attraction that you'd like to visit. Have you seen those kinds of activities happening, is that something you see happening in the future?

Len shared that it's already starting to pick up and so they're from Toronto, so Canadian organization, there was this thing that really only worked in the country for some reason, which were coalition programmes where a lot of different programmes came together, use a common currency.

And they're seeing a lot more of what you just mentioned, where companies are comfortable with themselves. So, they're saying, “We know you're going to keep interacting and shopping with us, and we're going to issue that currency, but we're going to let you spend it in other places, because you're still seeing the value in where you earn those points.”

So, if he’s comfortable with the offer he’s providing, and he’s confident that he’s got a relationship with you, then it really is advantageous to tell you, you know what, you can use those points to book a hotel, even though you earn those points from a grocery store or from an airline. And then when you stay at that hotel, you'll reflect back and say, you know, this trip was covered, either in part or the whole thing was covered, because I shopped with insert any company you want here, whether it was Sephora or was Hilton, it doesn't matter.

Me: And you would remain loyal to the company that allowed you that affordability to have that vacation, as you mentioned, hotel room paid for because of your purchases with them.

Len agreed absolutely.

In Terms of Loyalty and Rewards – Trends Emerging in 2024

Me: So, in terms of future trends, I know AI I'm sure has some impact on the whole loyalty programmes that are implemented, but as a loyalty expert and seeing that you've been in the space for so long. If you were to give our listeners maybe one or two trends that you see emerging in 2024 and beyond as it relates to loyalty and rewards and using it as a currency on its own, what would those be?

Len shared that he thinks the first one is what Yanique mentioned, it's the ubiquitous nature of those points. So, they're going to be free for you to use and more and more locations and a lot more cross promotions with brands. So, they're going to be very comfortable in their partnerships, they're going to be very forthright with who they want to partner with and you'll be able to fly in on an airline, take a ride share to a restaurant, and that ecosystem will exist to use your points all together. So, he thinks that's the first thing we're really going to see a lot of.

And he thinks some of the things they've talked about in this industry for years, the personalization for a customer that really wants one experience. Although the technology has been there, it's been hard to manage and implement or just kind of onerous, and bringing tools like machine learning and AI into that space will assist with that. So, he doesn't think it'll be anything ground-breaking, like people tend to predict out there, but a lot of utilization of that technology to execute some strategies that have existed for some time.

App, Website or Tool that Len Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Len shared that he thinks for them, it's Slack. Just that ability to message. So, personally, he uses a tool called Trello a lot and it helps him organize his thoughts, he’s a pretty visualized person. But he would say the tool that's probably open the most on the screen on his devices is Slack and it’s that ability to message people, especially as they move to a remote work environment, it's really kind of an invaluable tool for them.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Len

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Len shared that they fall into two categories of things that really interests him. So, he likes a lot of documentaries, biographies, things of that nature. And like mentioned early on, he kind of fell into this space, it was something he enjoyed doing and eventually got into a leadership position. So, anything he can read about understanding how to be a better leader, how to run an organization is really big for him.

So, anytime he gets a chance, anything he can read or listen to from Simon Sinek is just helpful for him on how to be that that servant leader, there's a great book that really apply to their organization as they grew from Ben Horowitz, which was The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers. And that taught him some great lessons and exposed the fact that growing a business isn't easy, it's not always a straight line and goes in a perfect direction. So, those are the types of books that really helped him on the leadership side.

And then on the flip side, the artistic side of things is he really admire people that have done some pretty incredible things in whether it's the user experience space, the artistic space, it could be music. So, just recently, he read a book about Jony Ive from Apple, who is the genius behind Apple's greatest products, and he found that to be really inspiring for him.

What Len is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Len stated that that’s great question. They've been fortunate to work with some pretty large global organizations.

So, right now there's some things he can't share the details, but things that are transforming kind of the payment ecosystem with some of the largest brands in the world, that's really exciting.

It's that opportunity to be truly impactful and to do something differently. So, on the work side, that's something he looks forward to each day, and they've got a team, product and innovation team that really drives a lot of that change here. So, it's exciting for him to actually interact with their team day to day, they've got a fantastic team and working specifically on this project that he’s mentioning, just inspires him.

One Attribute | Characteristic a Leader MUST HAVE to Motivate Their Team

Me: Now, if you could choose one word or one attribute or characteristic that you believe a leader needs to have in order to have a team that is intrinsically motivated? So, they're not inspired by money, you don't have to dangle things in front of them to get them to do the work it but they're intrinsically motivated because as a leader, you inspire them. What would be that one word or that one trait or characteristic?

Len shared that the word for him is Trust. The people they have at Engage really drive the organisation, he always say that on any of these podcasts or interviews to anyone that's listening is they're really driven by their people.

And he thinks the thing that they appreciate the most about the leadership and just others in the organization is that level of trust. So, that's not always the case, organizations have people that come and go that don't necessarily exude those characteristics or those traits. But he would say as a leader, if your team can trust you, they know you have their best interests at heart, and they know you're looking out for them, then they're willing to do the same for you.

Me: Alright, awesome. So, trust, I like it.

Where Can We Find Len Online

Website - www.engagepeople.com

LinkedIn – Len Covello

Twitter/ X – Len Covello

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Len Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Len shared that he doesn't know that there's a quote, that's a positive quote, they have some funny ones, sometimes probably not appropriate. But he doesn't go to a quote, he tends to go to moments in time that he thought were really beneficial to him.

So, there's always a point in his career and he remembers it vividly to this day where now a mentor to him saw him at a point where he was still at he'll call it immature in his business acumen and sat him down and taught him how to be more measured.

And he thinks that's the best thing you can do that a lot of the leaders that he admires have the ability to not get too up on the highs and not get too low on the lows, and just be measured with things and have that opportunity to take a step back, really evaluate the situation and understand that you'll get through it.

Me: All right, awesome. Well, thank you so much Len for taking time out of your very busy day and hopping on this podcast with us and sharing all of the great insights as it relates to loyalty and having it as a viable currency that you can use in an organization. And also looking at some of the emerging trends that we can look forward to in terms of loyalty rewards and points being something that can be more acceptable across the board regardless of where you are, what part of the region you are in the world that customers can just have greater access to benefits from organizations that they love, organizations that they patronise consistently, organizations that have been a part of their lives for so many years, that they can actually have some value out of it through having it as a viable payment option and getting back something in return. It was a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers by Ben Horowitz

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

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Pete Kusiak is the franchise guru who knows how to bring the fun into business. With a track record of success owning and coaching franchises for over 20 years, Pete's innovative strategies have transformed businesses, boosting revenue and workplace happiness. His passion lies in creating organisations that are not only exciting, but also irresistible. By using his Fun First Strategy, Pete motivates teams, improves company culture, and drive sales and operations to new heights.

When he's not busy making work lively, you can find Pete enjoying quality time with his amazing wife and four kids in Charlotte, North Carolina. Oh, and did I forget to mention he's a seasoned marathon runner and a connoisseur of Rum Punch and Mai Tais! Pete has certification in Happiness Coaching and Human Resources Consulting, making him your go-to-guy for all things fun and business.

Questions

· Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. How did you get to connecting fun with business? How did that all come about?

· So, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your book, Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business and maybe two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on, just like what can they expect from the book?

· Are there any recommendations you could give to our listeners, like if they wanted to make fun part of their culture, what are some things like from a recruitment perspective you would need to kind of identify in the interview process to kind of pick those persons or at least be able to identify that those persons may have those qualities?

· Could you share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

· Can you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Now, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Pete’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests Pete an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey. How did you get to connecting fun with business? How did that all come about? Can you tell us?

Pete shared that his journey really started way back when he graduated college. And he linked up with a franchise, children's fitness franchise called The Little Gym and it is all about creating these great fun experiences with kids and teaching them how to enjoy being physically active. So, that really carried with him as he progressed through his years in corporate America, because he had eventually made a name for himself and got linked up with the corporate headquarters of that franchise, did some training and consulting, to eventually owning his own Little Gyms in the Charlotte market.

So, once they built a successful franchise platform in Charlotte, it was time for him to kind of step back from the day to day operations and got more involved in the coaching consulting realm with different brands, mainly in the service industry, but helped build operations, and trainings and coaching and all sorts of good things over the last few years that ultimately led him to sit back and really reflect about why businesses are successful?

Why were his businesses successful?

What was the commonalities between the businesses that didn't have success versus the ones that did?

And it came down to one thing, it was really easy, the businesses that had the most fun, were the most successful, and he felt that in my businesses, the days or months or years that they were focused on that grind, they were in that mentality of a grind, they weren't as successful as the years they were just enjoying what they were doing and celebrating with their customers, and just creating a culture that was really good. So, the mindset really made a big difference.

So, what he did was he decided, “Hey, if I could put all of these unique theories and these unique methods into a book, it would really make a great business strategy.” So, a couple years ago, he started writing, and came up with what he called the Fun First Strategy, it's really a way to prioritize making fun, the element in which or the catalyst in which you can have business success. So, kind of a long story there. But it's a wide range from his early beginnings of a teacher and working with kids all the way through working with multiple brands and coaching and consulting, but using those strategies to really propel fun as a catalyst.

Pete’s Book – Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business

Me: So, then you wrote a book called Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business: With The Fun First Strategy. F of course, standing for fun. So, that book was published on January 23 of 2024, correct?

Pete said yes, he was having fun with a wordplay there. Drop the F bomb and what's so neat is that coming from the children's fitness industry, they didn't use foul language, you're working with kids, you don't do that. So, he thought it would kind of be unique to position it as an eye catcher and you get people curious about what he’s talking about. So, having a little fun with words.

Me: It was, I will have you know that when your profile was presented to me via email, that's what caught my attention in the email. So, I was like drop the F bomb. I said, I wonder what he's talking about. And then I did some more research. And I was like, Oh, this sounds pretty interesting. I'd love to have him on our podcast as a guest. So, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your book, and maybe two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on, just like what can they expect from the book? Is it more like narratives in terms of examples of using fun in different businesses and you give like case studies and examples, or is it more so you talking more from a strategy perspective of using fun as that trigger that will help to navigate that experience

Pete shared that it's really all of the above, because they have to prove that there's a need for fun in business, because a lot of times when you throw that out there, so you need to have more fun in order to be successful in business, people not necessarily agree, everyone for the most part understands that it's important to celebrate the victories, have fun when you win, achieve goals. But his book is really about how you make fun part of the journey, not just the reward, that's a key element. But you really need to know and flip that mindset to, “If we could have fun along the way. If we could build that into our operations, if we could build that into our business environment, our customer service. If we could attract more like minded individuals that want to have fun, and be part of that process, what would that do for your business?”

So, the book really starts with changing the mindset and can convincing through the philosophy that fun does work, it can create opportunities for more, better problem solving, better creative thought, more work engagement, which is ultimately going to lead to higher profits, better customer service, etc. So, they kind of start there. And then as the book progresses, it takes you through what he calls the playbook.

The playbook, or the PLAY book is really important because that's the actual strategy sets, that's one of his theories is called The Principle of PLAY and that stands for Prioritize, Laughter and Youth, so when you can find a commonality amongst your people, your team, your culture, your business culture, you can start to employ these play principles so that you're having more unique experiences and getting to those points where everything else is a lot easier, because you're having fun along the way. And so then, toward the end of the book, they talk about the strategies in experiences. So, he actually have written some real life examples of how the first strategy actually worked in different businesses. So, those will be fun to read as well.

Me: All right, that is awesome. So, PLAY you said stands for Prioritize, Laughter and Youth.

Pete stated that's right. So, if you make fun, obviously, the Fun First Strategy, right, prioritize, make it a priority in your business, to make fun part of your culture. And if you can make it number one, great. But laughter, who doesn't want to laugh when you have to work? So, they do that through gameplay in creating opportunities to be a little silly, and youth, youth comes in because he likes to say, consider the things you did as a child, what did you like to do? What games did you play? What activities did you enjoy? Because it's fun to revisit, it's fun to revisit and think about this as you're a child, you're taught through play, you're taught through music, you're taught through song or games and activities. But as we get older, at least here, the education he received was that they had less and less play, they had less and less singing and things like that.

But why? If we're hardwired to do that, if we're doing that from the beginning, what a neat thing that could potentially shape you as an adult as well if you are hardwired to play and be active and want to take that moment of joy, it's going to change your mindset and everything that you do, right. So, it was important for him that they addressed the grind culture, what he calls the grind culture, and the negativity that happens when you get into a grind culture.

So, this book really helps you to one, recognize if you're in that culture, but two, the real, true strategy on how to get out of that. Ultimately, his goal was to create more workplace happiness, the goal in the Fun First Strategy is to create environments that are very engaging and fun and create workplace happiness.

Me: Amazing, when I opened your bio this morning to prepare for the podcast interview, I had to do a TV interview this morning, I was helping out a friend who has a business that focuses on indoor playground experience [YG1] . So, it's targeted towards children but because we live in a tropical country and a lot of times when you take the kids outside, you're so exhausted from the heat and sun, she decided that she was going to create this indoor playground experience with like, soft play and sensory activities, and ball pits and live characters like the ones you see in TV shows, so you have them right there dressed up in front of the kids. And we did a game with the hosts where they had two baskets and two sets of balls, one red, one green and each person had a balloon.

And the aim was to get as many of your colour balls into the basket without the balloon falling on the ground. But it was so much fun, they had so much fun. Like I was watching the video after I left the TV studio this morning and I was like, they had so much fun, they were like literally back as kids again. And I always say it. I mean, I believe that as adults, we are really big kids, but I find that we get so serious sometimes we take ourselves too seriously, we don't take time to do fun and exciting things that make us laugh, because I do believe that those are things that help to keep you youthful.

Pete agreed, absolutely. And just think about how that made you feel, right. And that's the principle of play at work, when you can put some silliness into your day, going to be a better problem solver, you're going to be more creative and finding your solutions. Because you're just thinking in that manner, thinking in a playful, creative way. Now, not to say that business is all fun, and not work because he believes that you do have to take business seriously and things that you have to do and reaching goals and measuring your business and all the things that make you financially successful, that's important.

But if there was a way to make it more fun, if there was a way to get to those goals that are less stressful, or are less of a grind, you would probably do it. So, that's what this is all about, it's about making sure that you're allowing yourself the opportunities to have some fun at work, because you're going to open the doors to like-minded individuals, people that want to come work for you, customers that want to do business with you because the experience is wonderful. Think about the amount of hours we spent working days, we don't want to be caught up in a lifestyle that just is beaten up. He wants to have more life experience.

Now the key really to this is the common interest, because what's fun for one person may not be fun for the next and in the book he wrote about that, that there are diverse perspectives on fun. And through the strategy and through the book, you can kind of find common interest in there through icebreaker games and different things that you can do at work to find common interest amongst your team, or even with your customers. And then you kind of start to theme things and make things more enjoyable because he likes to run, Yanique had mentioned in his bio that he’s a marathon runner, but that's not fun for everybody. But for him, it's a good opportunity for him to express, move his body, express himself and all the good things that come along with running and staying healthy, to him it was fun. He likes to challenge himself but for the next person it may not be so you have to find those common interests and then build upon those interests as you find them.

And then one really big caveat is you have to remember the rule of grandma, so, the rule of grandma means if you wouldn't do it in front of your grandmother, you shouldn't do it at work because he’s heard some interesting stories when it comes to fun at work, we don't want to any HR nightmares. So, if you wouldn’t do it in front of grandma, don't do it at all.

Me: As you were talking about loving running, and just being able to express yourself, I'm going to tell you a little secret that unfortunately all of my listeners are going to hear now, but I love to dance, right, now, I'm not a good dancer according to some people who dance really well and see me dance, right? But I believe everybody can dance and everybody can sing. I just believe that maybe they're not doing it to the level or at the capacity or competence that Whitney Houston, or Celine Dion can sing, or Shakira can dance, but I believe I can dance. But I feel so good when I dance, even if it's foolishness I'm doing Pete, it feels good.

Pete stated that that is awesome. And he'll tell you that two things come to mind. One is he spent time in Jamaica when they get the chance to vacation and stuff with his family, they absolutely love the culture, because it is full of life and dancing and movement, joy and singing. And he just loves to be around that type of environment, but he doesn't dance. And what's funny is even in his book he wrote about that as a concept, is that t's okay to enjoy things even if you're not participating.

So, don't always judge a book by its cover when you're creating games or activities or experiences that involve fun at work. If somebody's just kind of standing by watching, don't jump to the assumption that they're not having fun because if you were to kind of outside looking in at him watching a group of people dance, you’ll say, “Well, how come he is not dancing, he must not be having any fun” but he’s having the time of his life just enjoying you expressing your love for dance, that's a great time, it's a lot of fun for him to be in part of that environment but he’s just not going to dance.

How to Select the Right Candidates for a Company with a FUN Culture?

Me: I get it. So, I have a question for you. The aim is to ensure that you have a fun culture, right? How do you attract people who like to have fun? Are there any recommendations you could give to our listeners, like if they wanted to make fun part of their culture, what are some things like from a recruitment perspective you would need to kind of identify in the interview process to kind of pick those persons or at least be able to identify that those persons may have those qualities?

Pete shared that it's kind of a lot goes into that because one, once you've established that you're a fun culture, it's one thing to write that on a job ad and he thinks that there's a lot of job ads that he’s read recently that promote a fun culture. But again, there's diverse perspectives of fun and if it's a core value in your business, or you're promoting a fun culture, you need to live up to the hype, because he’ll tell you, when somebody is bought into your job ad, because you wrote about the fun, talked about that as a core value, and then they show up for an interview or they're ready to start their work and they don't see that culture in play, they're not going to stay or they're not going to show up again for another interview.

So, he thinks that you have to kind have to one, establish the fact that you are going to commit to this type of a culture and you're going to live it, you're going to be an embodiment. And what that fun version is for you, as the leader of the organization, the owner of the organization, the managers of the organization, whatever that model of fun is, it's okay for you to own it, because you're going to have people that may be aligned with your version of fun and there may be some people that don't. So, when you write job ads and you promote the job that you're ready to hire, you want to give very specific reasons of what you're doing to provide that fun culture.

So, if you like to do a lot of outings or if you'd like to do a lot of silly themes during your week, there was one company he worked with, they love everything and any cats. So, they talked about, “Hey, we have a silly, fun culture at our business.” And they would talk about this in interviews because we are qyuirky they love everything cat, if you're a cat person, reach out because you'll fit right in. Now again, if he doesn't like cats, okay, but if he thinks that that's an interesting culture for him to want to be a part of, he can maybe align with that. So, he likes to say, one, establish what fun is for you. Give examples of that in your job ads. But embrace the uniqueness, embrace the uniqueness.

One of the biggest mistakes, especially small business owners make is they don't embrace the charm of small business, there's a uniqueness and a charm in small business that you can do things a little bit outside of work. And when people are interviewing, or people are applying for jobs, what they'll do is they'll apply for a lot of different reasons based on the title or the qualifications, things like that. So, as a hiring manager, he’s competing with small business, medium business, large business, corporations and he doesn't want his interview, he doesn't want to his job ads, he doesn't want those things to be exactly like everybody else. And too many times he sees small businesses, especially write their job ads, and shake them like a large corporation and that's okay until the individual comes in to see the environment they're working, oh, well, this isn't the 10 story building they interviewed in last week. Instead, embrace what makes you different, embrace that small charm, because he thinks you're going to attract people that are looking for that type of opportunity, or they know what it is going into. Does that make sense?

Me: Yep, it does, perfect sense.

App, Website or Tool that Pete Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Pete stated that in his business, he loves QuickBooks. So, he can't live without QuickBooks, that's how he does all his bookkeeping, all his invoicing and all his administrative. So, QuickBooks is a great online resource for them.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Pete

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Pete shared that he’s been thinking about this a lot, because he’s read a lot of business books. And one of the reasons he was so interested in writing a business strategy book was because he’s had so many that were multiple steps, or the 50 laws or 100 steps to whatever and they're long and they're cumbersome. So, his book is a little bit more about keeping it short. There is a book though that he read a few years ago it's called David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants, it's by Malcolm Gladwell. And he thought he was picking up a spiritual book at first, spiritual books and different things as a man of faith, but he thought it was picking a spiritual book and it was to a degree, but it was about all these stories and all these examples of how the underdog isn't always necessarily the underdog, but we perceive the smaller, or the weaker, or whatever, as disadvantaged, sort of like David and Goliath.

But why is it that the underdog always excels? It's because sometimes what's perceived as a disadvantage, could actually be an advantage. And it was so compelling to him and the stories were so compelling that it really made him think about how he was raised, and some things because he wasn't raised very wealthy and things like that, and how he had to problem solve his way to get to things, whether it be to sporting events or practices, different things, and if he wanted new shoes, or different whatever, he had to problem solve that as a young child.

And so, as he became a business owner, a business person later on down the road, he started remembered, “Hey, I can figure out pretty much any problem that comes my way because I practice those skills so early on” and growing up, he thought it was a huge disadvantage, he didn't have the things his friends had, they didn't have as much money, but he used those skills every day of his life now. So, that book is a great example of perceived ideas on disadvantages, they actually may be the things that are strengthening. So, it was a really neat perspective.

What Pete is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s excited about, Pete shared like he said, the book is out so he’s just celebrating his work, he call it his life's work, his big strategy. It's really taking up a lot of his time and he loves it, he loves being able to spread the word about adding fun into work and creating workplace happiness. He thinks it's a movement for sure and he loves being on the kind of the precipice of this new business ideology that if we can add more fun, engaging experiences we can create workplace happiness for everybody. So, he loves being a part of that, so, that's huge for him. So, spreading the word.

Where Can We Find Pete Online

Website - www.funfirststrategy.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Pete Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Pete shared that being a marathon runner, or being somebody that runs, his mantra ever has always been, “Never, never give up.” So, that echoes in his mind a lot as he start a new venture, start a run, especially a long run that he doesn't know if has the energy, just keep moving, keep moving, “And remember to have fun.”

Me: All right, perfect. So, never, never give up. And always remember to have fun. I had fun in this interview.

Pete shared he did as well, he couldn't pass up the chance to chat with somebody from Jamaica. So, love it.

Me: Warm my heart, warm my heart. Thank you so much, Pete, we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you're busy promoting the book and spreading the message. So, taking a good 30 minutes out of your day to sit with us and share all these great insights and nuggets about what you're doing and just how it can help to improve and increase on workplace happiness and just human happiness, to make people just enjoy life more and not take themselves so seriously. But all while getting the job done and achieving the goals that we're all working towards, it was really a fun and productive conversation. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Drop the F-Bomb in Your Business: With The Fun First Strategy by Pete Kusiak

• David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants by Malcolm Gladwell

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View Details

Ali Cudby, CEO of Alignmint Growth Strategies, which is a dynamic force in business transformation through intentional customer experiences. With a mission to drive growth by architecting superior customer interactions, Ali's expertise aligns strategy and implementation. She is the author of the bestselling book, Keep Your Customers, she offers fresh insights from real-world stories, best practices and CEO-led case studies.

Her MINT Method, outlined in the book, fuels transformational customer loyalty. With 20+ years in corporate planning and strategic marketing, Ali founded Alignmint in 2014, focusing on small to mid-size companies. As a Purdue University entrepreneurship instructor, she shapes the next generation of business leaders. Ali's podcast appearances showcase her wealth of knowledge in customer experience, growth strategies and intentional business success.

Questions

· If you could share a little bit with our listeners, how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

· You are the author of the bestselling book, Keep Your Customers. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? And maybe just two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on.

· The MINT Methodology.

· Now, Ali, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

· Now, Ali, could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Before we wrap our episodes up, Ali, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Ali’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey, even though your bio gives us a formal breakdown of what you've done in the past and who you are, you're an author and the different strategies that you've employed to get to where you are, just in your own words, if you could share a little bit with our listeners, how you got from where you were, to where you are today?

Ali shared that she got into this world of customer loyalty and retention in her first job out of business school. And she was working for The New York Times company in their corporate strategy group, which was kind of like an internal consulting group, and was put on a project in the call centre, which honestly wasn't really considered to be an awesome assignment, it was sort of the call centre was in a warehouse in New Jersey, and not in the very lovely corporate headquarters in Times Square.

And people were coming up to her and saying, “Oh, I'm so sorry that you've got this gig.” And ultimately, it transformed her thinking about the customer experience and created this path for her entire career. Because it showed her this insight, which is that the things that companies do inside their organization are the things that impact the customer experience.

So, you have to be really thoughtful about how do you deliver clear and consistent processes for the customer and make sure that you embed that with your team so that your customers can have this great experience. So, that time at the New York Times company was a really long time ago, and she’s had the opportunity now to see this in action in corporate America and in her own path as an entrepreneur and in a very wide range of companies. And so, that's kind of how she started out in this very corporate role.

Keep Your Customers

Me: Now, in your bio we also read that you are the author of the bestselling book, Keep Your Customers. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? And maybe just two to three overarching themes that the book focuses on.

Ali shared that the book was published, and it came out on April 15, 2020, which as you recall was a little bit of a crazy time. And so, she spent two years putting the book together and making sure that it had everything just perfect and all these speaking engagements lined up and all that stuff. And then the month before the book was published, the world changed.

And it was really interesting, because the book really focuses on exactly what she was just talking about, what are the things that you can do in your company, to set your customers up for success.

And she talked about one of the key themes being the balance of heart and smart. And what she means by that is, in order to make customers want to stay with you longer and spend more, and tell all of their friends and colleagues, you have to make people feel seen, heard and valued.

And we tend to think about that emotional connection to our customers as being a little bit fluffy sometimes and that's a real mistake. The fact of the matter is that humans have a real need to feel like they matter and when you build relationships and when you build trust with your customers, it sets you up for a better business relationship. And that's the heart of the customer experience.

And then the smart of the customer experience is that you still have to have data and metrics and process in order to ensure consistency. If you don't capture information and learn from it and have a great single source of truth about your customer information so that everybody inside your company knows what's going on with your customers. If you don't have clear and consistent processes that everybody follows, then it's going to be really hard to set up processes for growth.

So, you can have just like heart-centred employees who really want to do the right thing all the time, but if everybody's doing their own right thing, then you have a mess and what you need is this consistency. So, it's that balance of heart and smart that really drives success in the customer experience.

The MINT Methodology

Me: All right, so the heart and smart. Now, you also speak about your MINT Methodology and I'm going to take a quick guess here that MINT is actually an acronym, right?

Ali stated that it is sort of an acronym. It is a four step process. She really tried hard to make it a cool acronym, and it never quite gelled. But she can talk through the four steps of the process. And the name of her company is actually as you said, it's Alignmint Growth Strategies. And the mint part of it is really intentional, not just because of the method, but because of what mint represents.

So, when you plant mint, it grows like crazy and when things are awesome, they're in mint condition. And when you make a lot of money, you make a mint. And so, the combination of aligning and mint is exactly what they're looking for in terms of their customers outcomes.

And so, the MINT method is this four step process where first you are articulating what she calls a bullseye, which is a mission statement effectively for the customer experience. So, companies oftentimes create mission and vision and values for their company, but it's really all about their company. And what people need to do and what companies need to do is also articulate who it is that we want to be on behalf of our customers. Because if you have a goal of being fast and easy, that is going to set you up for a very different customer experience than if you have a goal of being white glove and luxurious.

And so, in the same way that you want to articulate who you are for your company, you need to articulate who you are for your customers. And so, that's the first step of the process, that's the creating of the mantra of the bullseye.

Second is understanding who those customers are, really being clear about who it is that you're serving.

· Why are they loyal to you?

· What is it that those best customers want?

So that you are thinking about how you drive more of them. And then she goes into a lot of detail in the book about how do you identify and articulate not just who buys the most from you, but who's the most loyal to you, you can have a really big customer that isn't loyal at all, but they drive a lot of revenue.

And you can have a small customer that would live and die for you and they tell everybody that they know about how awesome you are, you want those people. And then once you know who it is that you're serving and who you want to get more of, then what do you want their journey to look like?

So, being very clear about what that customer journey looks like, what are the key inflection points throughout that journey.

And then finally, the fourth step is identifying clear plays so that everybody inside your company knows exactly what to do whenever a customer gets to that inflection point on the customer journey. So, whether that's the onboarding, kick-off, the business review meeting, or the renewal period, or anything in between, every company has its own unique set of inflection points, some of them follow some level of consistency, onboarding and renewal or repurchase are fairly consistent. But everybody does it a little bit differently, everyone needs to be clear about how they want their company to engage with customers at each of those points along the journey map.

And again, that's how you make sure that you're delivering something that is not just a well-intentioned approach, but a really thoughtful and strategic approach to retention and growth.

App, Website or Tool that Ali Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Ali stated that it's probably Zoom. She stated that that's not a very creative answer but she’s on Zoom all the time, every day, she works remotely for the most part. And so, that's her rock.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Ali

When asked about books that have had a great impact on her, Ali shared that there's a book called The Happiness Advantage: The Seven Principles of Positive Psychology That Fuel Success and Performance at Work by Shawn Achor, and he is a professor of positive psychology at Harvard. And the whole science of positive psychology is fascinating, the way that we create new neural pathways, the way that we can define in our brains how to be more positive, and how to cultivate happiness. And so, his book is just fascinating and he also has a TED Talk, if you don't feel like reading the whole book, he has a TED Talk that is fantastic, it's funny, he's a great speaker, and he gives you some very clear actionable steps at the end of the TED Talk that are very helpful in helping people stay focused on the positivity and moving forward. And she just thinks that his whole approach and that TED Talk, that's one of her favourites.

What Ali is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Ali shared that she just got a puppy. She stated that she knows that that's not necessarily a business thing. But she will tell you that watching her puppy play and explore and be curious about this new world that she has come into is fascinating.

And it is a great reminder that there's so much that is new and interesting in the world and it's easy sometimes to get into a very fixed mindset about what we do, and the things that we engage with from day to day and moment to moment. You get up and you make your coffee and you sort of go through your rigmarole and sometimes it feels a little bit like, “All right, I’m going to check my boxes, I'm going to do my thing and it's one foot in front of the other” and when you get a puppy who just has this completely new way of engaging with the same old things that you're reacting to every day, whether it's some snow on the ground or a sock on the floor, it reminds you to be open to different ways of seeing the world and she finds that to be helpful in business.

So, she’s been trying to be intentional about using this lesson that her little ball of fluff is teaching her and just be open to the fact or to the notion that maybe she can approach things differently, maybe she can rethink things and come at them with more of a sense of wonder and play and excitement.

Me: That's amazing. You'd be surprised to know the many different life lessons we can learn from animals. So, I think it's awesome that your puppy is teaching you so many different new ways and perspectives of looking at things from a different view.

Where Can We Find Ali Online

Website – www.alignmintforgrowth.com

LinkedIn - Ali Cudby

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Ali Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Ali shared that there's a quote by Maya Angelou that she thinks about a lot for her personal life, but it's also a real guideposts in her business. And the quote is, “People will forget what you did, people will forget what you said, but people never forget how you made them feel.” And it's so true, the words that we use don't matter. But when you make someone feel seen, heard and valued, whether it is in your personal life, or whether it is in your business, it is transformative.

Me: All right, thank you so much for sharing. Well, I just want to extend our deepest gratitude to you, Ali, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast today, sharing insights about your book, Keep Your Customers as well as your MINT Methodology and just a little bit about your overall strategy and execution as it relates to delivering that magical and unforgettable customer experience. We really appreciate all the great insights that you shared with us today. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Happiness Advantage: The Seven Principles of Positive Psychology That Fuel Success and Performance at Work by Shawn Achor

• Keep Your Customers: How to Stop Customer Turnover, Improve Retention and Get Lucrative, Long-Term Loyalty by Ali Cudby

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Eric Williamson is the Chief Marketing Officer at CallMiner. As CallMiner’s Chief Marketing Officer, Eric oversees all global marketing functions from brand and events to demand generation. Eric's marketing team works very closely with channel and sales to drive pipeline and CallMiner’s explosive growth. Eric has over 20 years of experience in both technology and consumer products marketing from both the vendor and agency side.

Before joining CallMiner, Eric was VP Brand & Digital Marketing at Acquia - an open DXP platform built around Drupal - where he led brand, creative services, webops, editorial, and demand generation. Prior to Acquia, Eric was on the agency side of marketing working as SVP Digital & Social Media at MullenLowe, and before that as VP Digital Strategy at The Martin Agency.

During his career, Eric has worked with a variety of B2C and B2B brands including Google, Microsoft, Intel, GEICO, Walmart, P&G, Pizza Hut, Acura, Royal Caribbean, and Hyatt. He earned his undergraduate degree from Texas A&M University, and an MBA from The University of Texas at Dallas.

Questions

· Could you share in your own, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

· Now, could you share with our listeners what is CallMiner and what exactly do you do?

· The CallMiner CX Landscape Report, could you share with our listeners, I would say maybe three to five of the top themes or insights that we were able to garner from that data and that report?

· What are your views as it relates to how leaders are actually utilising the CX data? Are they supporting and using it to make data driven decisions? Or is it just one of those reports that's generated and is there as a KPI but you're not really doing anything with the information.

· Now, could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but to this day, it still has had a great impact on you.

· Now, could you also share with our listeners, Eric, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now, Eric, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Eric’s Journey

Me: Now, before we jump into the conversation, I always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share in your own words, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Eric shared that Yanique did a pretty good job of covering his bio and in her intro, so thank you for that. So, he started his career out as essentially a BDR or an SDR is what they're called, typically, at least in SaaS, which he thinks is one of the best first jobs you can have, especially if you have aspirations of doing something in either sales or marketing. So, you talk to a tonne of CMOs, who that was their first job as well, so that's where it started.

He spent a lot of time working in digital advertising and then ultimately integrated big agency advertising for a lot of big brands and then flipped over to the client side and worked at a tech company called Acquia, which was covered just briefly in that intro. It's an open DXP player, built on top of Drupal, which is an open source project. And essentially, think of it is an open source competitor to something like Adobe Experience Manager. So, spent three or four years at Acquia.

And after that was introduced to the CEO at CallMiner, and had a lot of great discussions and he has been at CallMiner as their Chief Marketing Officer since 2020. And they've had a really nice run so far, they've gone from about 40 million ARR to a little over 80. And they're still seeing some nice growth despite maybe some of like macroeconomic headwinds.

What is CallMiner?

Eric shared that CallMiner, they are the leader in conversation intelligence, specifically focused in more on customer service. So, if you think of any large company that has one or more large customer service agents, contact centres. So, they'll utilize their platform to ingest, so record and analyze every single customer interaction, whether that be a phone call to a customer service agent, texts to and from an agent, chats with an agent, survey data, all of that gets analyzed, and it's able to then turn around in real time and provide that customer service agent with guidance on to how to be able to deliver a better customer experience, guidance on how to answer the questions or access resources better. And then ultimately, if you're able to mind through millions of customer interactions, there's extremely valuable insights that can be discovered. And so, through machine learning in their artificial intelligence, their platform delivers that which is the larger value proposition.

The CallMiner CX Lanscape Report and the Insigts Garner From That Data

Me: Alright, thank you for sharing that information on CallMiner. In leading up to the interview with you, Eric, I was shared a copy of the report, The CallMiner CX Landscape Report, and I'm sure you're familiar with it right as the Chief. So, could you share with our listeners, I would say maybe three to five of the top themes or insights that we were able to garner from that data and that report?

Eric stated that first and foremost, the CX Landscape Report that Yanique’s referencing, it's an annual report that they publish so, it's original research for them. So, they do a survey of 700 plus CX and contact centre leaders across the globe and then what they'll try to do is keep a lot of those questions the same year over year as new trends and topics tend to emerge, they’ll introduce a few new questions, but that way they're able to ultimately keep a pulse on what is important, and what sort of trends they're seeing with CX and contact centre leaders across the globe.

In this particular one, so in the one that they published in late 2023, obviously, and this is not going to shock anyone but one of the biggest topics that was not new but he would say the focus on it was extremely heightened, is around artificial intelligence, you'd have to be living under a rock to not notice just the media firestorm around artificial intelligence, in particular generative AI in 2023 and even today.

A lot of the typical data that they'll look at in that report, and the findings have to do with, like he said, trends that contact centre professionals and CX professionals are seeing within their own organizations. But he would highlight a few specific findings around artificial intelligence since that seemed to be the dominant theme. What's interesting is couple of themes would be that nearly this is not going to shock anybody, but nearly all of them are looking to implement some aspect of artificial intelligence in the next 12 to 18 months. The interesting sub stat to that is of those, over half aren't really sure what they're supposed to do basically, they know they need it, whether they were told this or whether they inherently think they need artificial intelligence in some way. So, they're investigating it, but they are a little bit lost in terms of where exactly to apply it. So, that was one of the first overarching thematics is everybody wants it, but they're not sure what to do with it.

The next is, now that we've moved a little bit beyond, maybe like the hype cycle of all of this, where he thinks everybody is rushing to go do something, and you've got a little bit of fear of missing out. Now they've started moving into the stage where companies are actually starting to try and implement some of these things. And what they've moved into now is sort of the reality stage, which is they're starting to realize that there's some risk inherently with this, largely around compliance, around the protection of their brand. Because sometimes these generative AI models can have hallucinations, etc. So, he thinks they're getting into the reality stage of actually trying to implement it and realizing that you have to take a much more responsible approach to how we think about this, and that there is no AI silver bullet out there that's going to solve all of your CX problems.

The last one, and the underlying aspect of this is actually something that they have heard, even before they started digging deeper into AI trends for CX leaders, and that has to do with how CX is positioned among the entire company/organization. So, in many cases, CX is disconnected from the contact centre, which is never good. Or you've got CX that is its own central thing, your meeting, you've got CXO, you've got a team. And then in other cases, CX is sort of sprinkled in multiple departments. And so what this kind of leads to is a bit of a disconnect, in terms of how you can roll out properly something as expansive as artificial intelligence within a piece of software across all these different pieces that are somewhat disconnected within the organization.

The other thing it leads to is let's say you've got a contact centre, and you've got all this amazing data, because of the disconnections here, some of that incredible data coming out of all these customer interactions is never actually making it further than the contact centre because of those disconnects. So, the last theme has to do with how companies typically will measure CX or a voice of the customer programme. He thinks as everybody who might be listening to this podcast know CX when it all comes down to it is largely has grown up and is still inherently based on surveys. So, whether it be an NPS or CSAT survey, but these are solicited surveys, solicited answers from a survey which sometimes can be very polarizing.

The big opportunity and where he think the industry is going is to combine that survey data with unsolicited data. And so this would be the data that comes out of contact centres and customer service centres, actual conversations that have a motion that we can measure versus solicited questions and answers. So, he thinks the combination of those two is where CX in general is going. And what you'll find is companies that are a little bit more mature and have a better org structure are already tapping into some of that data out of their contact centre.

Me: Wow, that's amazing. I think that's a great idea to merge the data that is collected from people who are actually talking to customers on a daily basis. I mean, the reality is, in a contact centre, customers only call for two reasons, right, to make a complaint or to make a request, there is no other reason why they're calling.

Eric agreed, that's correct. So again, you think of like, put it in the consumer perspective, other than the major influencers, when you go put something on a review about a hotel you stayed at or about some restaurant you went to on Yelp, largely it's because it was either an amazing experience that you just can't help yourself, or it was such a bad experience that you just can't help yourself. So, it becomes polarizing, which is why using surveys only is flawed to truly measure CX.

How Leaders Utilize CX Data

Me: Now, what do you think leaderships’ role is? Being in the industry and also being in marketing with a lot of exposure working with different organizations, what are your views as it relates to how leaders are actually utilizing the CX data? Are they supporting and using it to make data driven decisions? Or is it just one of those reports that's generated and is there as a KPI but you're not really doing anything with the information.

Eric stated that if you look at their CX landscape report or talk to most large companies, for the most part, they're using CSAT score which is survey based, or an NPS score as kind of a one metric, if you got all the way up to the CEO level that they're looking at on a regular basis to measure sort of the barometer of where their customer experience offering is at this point.

He thinks to the question as a whatever a marketing leader in his case, one of the main things that they're responsible for is helping to better align the organization to where the right data is making its way up, helping to make sure that data is organized in a way that a CEO or a Chief Product Officer, which is another beneficiary of a lot of this unstructured data and the insights from it, or even in many cases, the CMO for him isn't able to get the insights, the root cause of understanding what some of these issues might be that they're trying to solve for.

So, he thinks aligning the organzsation so that the data can reach the right people, and then making sure that data is packaged up in the right way to where it is executive friendly in some of the things that a leader should be thinking about and trying to make this better.

Me: And I can imagine also not just spitting out scores in terms of X percent of this type of customer feels this way, but linking it to tangible things, especially for leaders who think in dollars and cents, if we have a decline in this particular area over x period of time, what will this mean for our bottom line? What does it mean for future initiatives and innovation that we may need to implement? So, I would imagine that would be the kind of mindset they'd have to have.

Eric agreed, absolutely, excellent point. And even if as a first step you're continuing to just use NPS and CSAT, you should have an understanding to your point, by looking at all of your forecasting and previous years financials, you should be able to point to an increase in one point is going to result in this much the bottom line. So, he definitely agree with that point.

App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Eric shared that sadly, probably the calculator on his phone just because he’s constantly needing to tally up the percentages in different stats as he’s doing some of his own reporting at an executive level, he must open that thing up several times a day.

From a website standpoint, they utilize the analyst reports quite a bit. So Forrester, who is one of the top tier analysts and the one who issued out the Forrester Wave that they're a leader in, so, he utilize them quite a bit from a research standpoint so that they can get a better understanding of where they predict the industry is going. So, he definitely tap into Forrester and Gartner quite a bit for that.

And then from a marketing standpoint, and Demand Gen. So, they have several vendors that they work with, so 6sense for their ABM intent platform, Outreach for their BDR platform. And he finds that some of the best resources that they can utilize for training for those particular teams. So, he spent some time looking through their most recent thought leadership and training materials to try and identify how he can help his team get better.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Eric stated that he would say from a business standpoint, so separate out fiction from a business standpoint, he thinks some of the classics like Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins, probably some of the ones that resonated with him the most and still, you can go back and reference. When he flip over to that sort of pleasure reading fiction, Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald has always been his favourite book. It's not a long read probably one of the reasons why, but he thinks he must have read that book 50 times.

What Eric is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Eric stated just keeping it focused around CallMiner, his company and his team. He thinks one of the things that he’s really excited about is all of them that are in tech SaaS, they really had a rough 2023, whether it be, layoffs in terms of correction on over hiring and 2021. But mostly, a lot of this is coming from just general macro conditions, macroeconomic conditions globally.

He thinks what he’s excited about is towards the end of 2023, they started to see a light at the end of the tunnel and sent some positive signals that they're turning the corner a bit, which he thinks anyone who works in tech should be excited about. He'll be interested to see how Q1 and maybe Q2, go for 2024 to see if that continues to more positive signals, and they start to see their prospects and their customer base be a little less cautious with their budgets and a little less conservative and be willing to maybe do some expansion and some testing within the platforms that they offer. So, he’s excited about that. And he thinks most tech companies are right now.

Where Can We Find Eric Online

Website – www.callminer.com

LinkedIn - CallMiner

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Eric stated that he doesn't know if this would be adversity, but they're constantly he feels like they're in the midst of adversity when they're trying to roll new campaigns out, roll new products out to the market. And something that he and several of his other C level peers, “Perfection is the enemy of progress.” So, he thinks it's very easy to get in your own way, and try to make something so perfect that you know it's going to be success and that's just a fallacy. And it's much better to do all the due diligence, do all the work to make it as good as you can. But get it out there and then learn from it early and make some changes to it than it is to just be unrealistic that you're going to be able to perfect something before you launch it.

Me: True. That's a very good quote. Excellent point.

Eric stated that he doesn't know who to attribute that quote to, by the way, but somebody wrote it.

Me: Well, Eric, I just want to tell you, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on our podcast, and sharing all of this great content as it relates to what CallMiner does, about the report that your company had published that you publish on an annual basis and the great insights that were able to be derived from it, as well as moving forward what organisations can look towards in terms of where they should be placing their energy in order to be yielding the greatest success as it relates to customer experience. So, just want to extend greatest level of gratitude. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t by Jim Collins

• Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Jim Kraus is the President of Buyer Persona Institute (BPI) and a leading authority on buyer personas and buying insights. BPI’s buyer persona research and workshop methodologies have become a gold standard for thousands of marketers in hundreds of companies worldwide that rely on these studies to reveal everything a prospective buyer needs to know and experience to have confidence in their solution. Marketers use these insights to develop strategies and messaging that drive more leads, improve conversion rates, and help sales hit their numbers.

In addition to his work at BPI, Jim is an avid blogger, author of the Buyer Persona Buzz newsletter, and is currently working on a second edition of the book Buyer Personas with BPI’s founder, Adele Revella. He also frequently speaks at events and podcasts to advanced thinking around buyer personas and buyer insights more broadly.

Outside of work, Jim enjoys travel, reading, sports, and spending time with his family.

Questions

· I always love to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

· You mentioned that you just completed your manuscript for your second book, which should be released later this summer. Could you share a little bit with our listeners what can they expect? And maybe how it is that you decided to even write a second manuscript as a follow up to your first book.

· Could you share with us maybe two to three things that you believe are critical for an organisation to achieve that trust with customers if it is that you're trying to attract that buyer and gain their trust?

· Now, as it relates to the buyer persona and the different aspects that make up that whole process. Apart from trust, what do you think is the key most important step or component in that process that can never be eliminated regardless of the industry that you're in?

· Now, Jim, could you also share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

· Now, could you also share with our listeners, Jim, maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

· Now, Jim, can you share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

· Where can listeners find you online?

· Now before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Jim’s Journey

Me: Now, I know we've read a little bit about your journey. And I always love to give our guests an opportunity for them to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.

Jim shared that his entire career has really been spent on understanding markets, understanding customers, understanding buyers, really just trying to provide market insights that help organizations make more informed decisions. He’s done it in a variety of places, both on the client side and as a consultant over the past three decades or so. Over the past 15 years, he has been a principal at a KS&R which is a full service market research firm. And they are working with Buyer Persona Institute, he’s leading by Buyer Persona Institute as division of KS&R right now. And they're 100% focused on understanding buyers and more specifically, understanding the buying decisions that your prospective buyers make so that you can make more informed decisions around your marketing and sales strategies. So, his whole career has been focused on insights, right now it's over the last couple of years in particular, been really focused on understanding prospective buyers to help marketing and sales.

What Customers Can Expect from Second Book?

Me: Now, in our pre interview conversation, you mentioned that you just completed your manuscript for your second book, which should be released later this summer. Could you share a little bit with our listeners what can they expect? And maybe how it is that you decided to even write a second manuscript as a follow up to your first book.

Jim shared that the first book, Buyer Personas was written by Adele Revella, who is the founder of Buyer Persona Institute about 9 years ago. And him and her co-authored the second edition, this updated and expanded edition. And the main reason that they decided to update it is one, a lot has changed over the last 8 to 9 years.

But the foundation of Buyer Personas, they can talk a little bit about what a buyer persona is perhaps really hasn't changed. At the end of the day, you're trying to really understand buyers, what their wants and needs are and what experiences that they expect so they have full confidence buying from you, that's essentially what you're competing on, you're competing on trust.

So, they developed the second edition of the book that will be out this summer, and they're adding some things to it that they think will be really valuable for readers, even those that have picked up the first book many years ago. So, they've added more information about how to design a buyer persona study. They've added a lot of information about how to add to do quantitative survey research to get even more insight outside of your buyer persona. They're spending more time in the second edition about how to use buyer persona insights and very tangible ways to improve marketing and sales performance and win more business.

The other place obviously, the fourth place that they're spending more time on this second edition is just defining what a buyer persona is and isn't, a lot of people have kind of a pre-conceived notion about a buyer persona is, they spent a little more time in this second book explaining why a buyer persona focus on understanding the buying decision is so much more powerful for marketers than just understanding a particular individual or role in the buying decision, which is kind of the traditional definition of a buyer persona.

Trust as a Critical Factor

Me: Now, in your review just know as it relates to the book, one of the things you mentioned that jumped out at me is that we're all competing as it relates to the buyers that we're trying to attract on trust. And so trust is a very big, and it's a critical theme that I believe in customer experience is critical if you want to build retention, higher retention, and high loyalty in your business. So, could you share with us maybe two to three things that you believe are critical for an organization to achieve that trust with customers if it is that you're trying to attract that buyer and gain their trust?

Jim shared that one of the things to think about is, a lot of times when you say the word buyer persona, people associate it with profiling a particular role in the decision process, right. Like maybe you have a buyer persona for a CIO if you sell tech products, or a finance manager if you sell financial products or services, etc. The challenge with that is, if you profile those roles, it doesn't give you a lot of information about how do you actually gain the trust of the buyer who's making a buying decision for a particular product and service.

So, let's say he’s selling a CRM system, that's his offering and he has a CIO buyer persona and it tells him information about certain demographics about what a typical CIO looks like maybe their overall challenges and priorities. But that doesn't do very much once a CIO, for example, is involved in purchasing a CRM solution, because when they're purchasing a CRM solution, what they care about most is two things, they care number one, that they're going to achieve all the outcomes and benefits that they want from this investment, right. It's an important investment. So, they care about, “Am I going to get everything that I want out of this?”

The second big thing, which is often overlooked is, “How do I avoid making a mistake?” Because again, a lot of times, particularly when you're talking about higher consideration buying decisions where you're looking at multiple options, there's multiple influencers involved, it's not just a transaction sale. A lot of times buyers are buying something like that for the first time, or they haven't bought it in a long time, so they're going to be anxious, they don't want to make the wrong decision. They don't want to go with something where something goes wrong.

So, what this all comes down to when you think about the whole thing, both elements of that, how do you give them what they need, reduce the risk of something going wrong.

Essentially, what you're competing on is trust. Price aside. Who do they feel is going to do the best job of making them feel secure, that they're going to get the outcomes that they really need and that nothing is going to go wrong?

So, that's kind of the key and the buyer persona is that the methodology that they'd like to talk about defined is really based on understanding the buying decision and specific components of the buying decision in order to build that trust.

Key Elements/Steps in the Buyer Persona Process

Me: Now, as it relates to the buyer persona and the different aspects that make up that whole process, based on your experience and the fact that you've been in this industry and you’re a subject matter expert as it relates to that. Apart from trust, what do you think is the key most important step or component in that process that can never be eliminated regardless of the industry that you're in?

Jim shared that when you're talking about understanding the buying decision, there's five different areas of insight that you really want to understand about the buying decision that your prospective buyers are making. So, whoever's listening out there, think about your particular product or service or solution, and you may have multiple products and services, and that's fine, but pick one and think about it.

There's five things you really want to know about buyers that are making a buying decision about something that you offer and that your competitors offer too. Number one is you want to understand what they call the Priority Initiatives. Another way to think about priority initiatives, these are the triggers, these are the things that are getting buyers to initially start either looking for a solution like the one that you have.

The reason that's so important to understand what those are is because you want to meet buyers where they are. So, when they're first starting, and they're anxious, and they're learning about this whole category of whatever you offer, what is the starting point. So, when you talk about how you approach them, and your marketing and your sales approaches, any kind of way you interact with them, you want to know those triggers, so that you can really create that quick sense that, “Hey, here's a company that really understands me.” That's the first tick of the box as far as trust.

The second thing that you want to understand about this buying decision is they call it Success Factors. And these are outcomes, these are benefits, these are at the end of the day, what results do these buyers need from this important investment that they're making. And you want to know that because obviously, you want to be talking about those. You want to be developing use cases, customer references, thought leadership, all kinds of things that you can do that speak to these key outcomes that they want. So, you want to know what those are implicitly.

The third thing you really want to understand is, they call it Perceived Barriers. The way to think about this one is, it is all the concerns and fears that buyers have buying your solution, not just yours, but all the alternatives you're looking at, because they're going to be anxious, they're going to have trepidations.

· What are those things that are getting them nervous?

· What are the things that are eliminating providers and consideration?

So, you want to know what those are ahead of time so you can proactively address those things.

The fourth area insight, there's five altogether, the fourth area is called Decision Criteria. And decision criteria is the traditional sales cycle. This is kind of middle later stages of the sales cycle when buyers are getting smarter about the category. And they're starting to ask really specific questions, because now they're really starting to make comparisons across the different alternatives that they're looking at. So, decision criteria or deals, all the questions that your buyers are going to be asking you in some shape or fashion.

And the fifth and final one is Buyers Journey. So, everything he said earlier is kind of the mindset, it's the needs, the fears, the attitudes, the buyers journey is

· What are the actual steps that your buyers take to identify who they're going to consider?

· How do they whether down on their options?

· How do they make a final decision?

· What are those steps?

· Who are the influencers involved?

· And what are the information sources they use to really develop an opinion, and an evaluation of what they're ultimately going to do?

If you take those five things, those five areas, they call them The Five Rings of Buying Insight that is so powerful, because if you would know those five things, you have everything you need to develop marketing and sales strategies to give buyers what they need to get to make very competent buying decisions and ultimately select you, which is the goal.

Me: For sure. So, give me that coin again, The Five Rings of buying Insight.

Jim shared, The Five Rings of buying Insight, they talked about it a lot in the book. It's just a name they gave to it. But the five things that they talked about are really important.

App, Website or Tool that Jim Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Jim stated that that's a good one. Well, he'll say a couple of things come to mind. One is, by the way, the way to develop your buyer persona, and that's going to lead to the answer to the question which will make more sense.

The best way to develop your buyer persona get those insights is to talk to recent buyers. What he means by recent buyers is buyers that have recently made the exact same buying decision that you're trying to influence, these aren't necessarily your current customers, these are individuals that have been involved buying a solution could be yours, could be a competitors in the past 6-12 months, and do in depth interviews with them so you understand their entire buying story from the moment they have a need for that particular solution until the time they make a final decision. The interviews are typically 30 to 40 minutes.

So, the reason number one it's an important point because buyers are the experts, the only ones that can give you that information. And then that leaves him to answer the question which is they have an app that helps them analyze all those interviews.

So, when you're doing those interviews, you often have 10-15 pages of unstructured data, right, text data. And they have an app that helps them make sense of all that data so that they can develop those insights. So, that's a pretty critical app for them to use he would say.

The other really important one for them is they've been using different Gen AI tools more and more much like many of the listeners are using. They use a lot of common ones, they've actually developed one that they're kind of using internally using major providers, they kind of use it as a testbed for their own and that's been invaluable to help them analyze interviews a little bit better, it's help them develop deeper profiles of buyers. It's not the end all be all, it's a supplemental thing. It's enables them to do some things quicker, but he would say those are the two that come to mind.

Me: Would you mind sharing the app that helps you do the interview analysis?

Jim shared that that's a proprietary app, so that's one that they actually built in house so that they can analyse interviews through to The Five Rings of Buying Insight.

Me: Do you know if there's any on open market that the listeners could tap into if they wanted to utilize such an application?

Jim shared that not that he’s aware of. So, The Five Rings of Buying Insight is something that they've developed and he doesn't think there's any tool that's available to do that. He will say that you can use and they actually have this in the book, the second book, you can use any one of the commonly, whether it's Chat GPT, or another one, you can use those to develop insights from these interviews to analyze across The Five Rings.

And in the book, that'll be out in the summer, actually, they give some instructions for different queries that you can use to help you do that.

Me: Very good. So, the mere fact that you said there's nothing on open market, I see that as an opportunity for all the listeners out there for anybody who wants to develop that tool, because we all know people are buying to solve their problems and clearly this seems like a problem that needs to be solved.

Jim agreed and shared that they're looking at that too as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Jim

When asked about books that have had the greatest impact, Jim shared that one book that he’s read about that he really liked a lot, they actually reference it in their book is called The JOLT Effect: How High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision by Matthew Dixon and Ted McKenna, the book’s about a year and a half old about this point. And it's really neat what they were able to do, COVID hasn't had many silver linings, the one silver lining in this case was that they were able to work with a couple of other firms to record literally millions of sales interactions between sales people, and prospective buyers over a certain period during COVID because a lot of those conversations were taking place on Zoom, and WebEx and, and Microsoft Teams, and just different ways that they were able to record these conversations where they could never be recorded before.

What that allowed them to do is this great analysis on all this data. And they just found out a lot of really cool things that we intuitively know. One of the major things they write about in the book is, what high percentage of one of the biggest obstacles that salespeople face is the dreaded no decision where you're working with a prospect, they go through this lengthy sales process, and then the prospect ends up buying nothing. Traditionally, there was always this belief that when somebody didn't buy something, it was purely because they wanted to stick with the status quo, they said, “Hey, we did our assessment. And we said, you know what, we think what we're doing now is better.”

What the study that Dixon and McKenna did that they described in The JOLT Effect showed was that that's not really the case, that's part of the time that's true. The other majority of time is that buyers just can't make a decision, they're struggling to make a decision because it's so hard to, it's very difficult. And they're very nervous about something going wrong, they don't want to be the one to screw it up, saying, “What we have now may not be great, we all know it has problems, but I just feel like it's a little bit too risky to buy anything.”

So, their analysis cast a light on this with hard data for the first time and the book also goes into different ways that you can get around that. And the reason it was so perfectly timed for them at Buyer Persona Institute, is it lines with the fact that you are competing on gaining a buyer’s trust and competence is the most important thing that you really need to do. So, that's why that was a pretty important book for them in the last couple of years.

Me: As you were talking, just know, before I actually read my next question, just again, from the conversation flow. You mentioned that buyers sometimes don't know, like they're confused, the anxiety of making a decision. Would you find and I'm asking this question as a buyer myself, especially when it comes to food. Would you find that for example, in a restaurant business, if there are too many items on the menu, it's harder to make a decision or do you believe that the less options that exist make it easier for the buyer to make a decision? What has your research shown where that is concerned?

Jim shared that it really depends on the category. So, you mentioned food, which is a very, very different category than if you're buying a software solution for your company, for example.

So, the answer is it really depends. What he can tell you and what The JOLT Effect showed very clearly is that they've seen in all the research and all the interviews that they've done is that buyers are trying to make sense of the world, right. Whether you have a lot of choices or not, and a lot of choices exasperate the problem. But if you're making a decision, especially one that you haven't made in a while or in your case, if it's a restaurant you haven't been to in a while, you're trying to orient yourself, so how can you educate the buyer as quickly and confidently as you can about this is what this world looks like right now, here's your alternatives. Let me help you make sense of this.

And then once he’s educated you and help you make sense of it, how can he help you confidently make a decision to purchase something. So, it's not always the number of choices, a lot of it is how those choices are communicated and how much effort is put into advising the prospective buyer and really helping them and guiding them making the decision. Because you could go walk in a restaurant that has 30 menu choices and they do things that make it very easy for you to understand what those are, you go into another restaurant using your example and it's just kind of chaotic and they don't make it easy for you to figure out what your choices are.

What Jim is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Jim stated that we mentioned that the book was a huge one, they just got the manuscript in about a week and a half ago. So, that was a really huge one that took a lot of his time over the last three months or so. So, that's a big one that they're really excited about. Aside from that, he would say one of the things that their team is working on that he’s excited about is it's kind of practising what they preach. So, a lot of what they do is providing insights so that companies can make more informed marketing and sales decisions, and more focused relevant content and messaging for their prospective buyers.

They're doing the same thing, you can always improve your value proposition, you can always make it easier for buyers to understand what is your differentiated value, what is the unique thing that you provide. Number one is helping buyers understand what are the options out there. And then number two, helping them understand very quickly, how are you different, there's this world of whatever you're offering is, how do you make it easier for them to figure out how you're different and what does it mean for them? What is the value for them in that?

So, that's something he’s kind of excited that they're working on for their own business and just sharpening the saw, so to speak, as far as how they talk about their business, deliverables, proposals, all those kinds of things, they're really taking a fresh look at all of that.

Where Can We Find Jim Online

Website – http://www.buyerpersona.com/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimkraus

LinkedIn – Buyer Persona Buzz

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jim Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Jim shared that he has one that is probably a little dramatic. But it's the point that he’s a big a huge history buff from Big World War II, Winston Churchill isn't one of his favourite historical characters, historical figures and he has a quote that says, “When you're walking through hell, keep walking.”

And he loves that quote because it's so simple and it just basically means that from a business perspective, nothing we're doing is hell right. But the point is, if you are going through times of adversity, or something's not working out exactly how you want it, just keep walking down the path, if you have to divert the path a little bit, that's fine. But don't get stuck, just keep moving it along and things will get better, you will figure out there's a solution to every problem, right. Just keep working the problem, you'll arrive at it. So, that's one he likes just because again, he’s a history buff, it's a very simple one and it just says so much. So, of the bunch he can think of, that'd be the one he'd probably pick.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing, Jim. Now, we would like to extend our deepest level of gratitude to you, Jim, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast, and sharing with us your journey as it relates to developing the key elements of the buyer's persona, talking about your new book that you've revamped along with your co-author and just really delving into what are some of the key aspects when you're trying to attract the right type of buyer to ensure that the trust is there and to ensure that you are truly feeding into the specific needs and desires that that buyer is looking for and limiting as much anxiety that they may have as it relates to making that decision. So, I really enjoyed this conversation, I just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The JOLT Effect: How High Perfomers Overcome Customer Indecision by Matthew Dixon and Ted McKenna

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Dave Singer is Verint’s Global Vice President, Go-To-Market Strategy. Singer is responsible for driving the GTM strategy for Verint’s Workforce Engagement solutions, and the Verint industry leading Open CCaaS Platform. The strategy is based on developing innovative messaging and offerings both partner and direct that drive customer centric differentiation and aligned value with both customer needs and expectations.

Singer joined Verint in 2002 and has held a variety of roles in Verint including Director of Solution Consultants, RVP of Solution Principles, and most recently RVP, Presales, focusing on Solution Consulting and Innovation. Prior to Verint, Dave was a Principal at eLoyalty and a Software Architect at IBM.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?
• What is Verint? And what does Verint do?
• What would you say are maybe two or three overarching themes or pain points that your customers predominantly have challenges with as it relates to closing that customer engagement gap?
• What do you think are maybe two things if your clients came to you and asked where do you think we need to be putting our focus for 2024 to kind of set ourselves apart from the competition and really be able to supersede our customers’ expectations?” What would those two things be based on your experience, as well as maybe what the data is actually telling you?
• Could you also share with our audience what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without In your business?
• Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read that has had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.
• Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Now, before we wrap our episodes, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track? The quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Dave’s Journey

Me: I know we read a little bit about your background in the bio that I just read. But we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Dave shared that he’ll go to beginning to now, the opposite order of the quick CV Yanique read. So, as was said, he started out life as a Software Engineer and after a little while, he realized he could have more impact on more customers and more people if he moved from just building one piece of code to consulting with organization, how do you use technology to improve their customer service and improve their operations.

He did that for a while, then he moved over to Verint and he really felt that Verint had a great set of applications and tools to do exactly that. And so, moved through there, again, continue to help customers deliver better experiences, their (Verint) customers better experiences for their customers and their employees. And his move to go to market strategy a few years ago, it was really a great opportunity for him to be able to, again, step back from looking at individual brands or individual opportunities and look at more holistically, how can Verint help all brands, how can Verint help all of their customers really help deliver better customer service, better agents, and employee experiences, and without sounding too, too corny, but really, really help people.

What is Verint and What Do You Do?

Me: Now, could you also tell our listeners, what is Verint? And what does Verint do?

Dave shared that Verint is the customer engagement company, and they're focused on helping brands elevate customer experience while also reducing costs and improving efficiency. So, the core problem in the market they set out to solve is something they call The Engagement Capacity Gap. So, if you think about it, customers, consumers, their expectations are going up and up and up and up all the time as there are more channels, more modalities, more ways that consumers can interact with brands, their expectations, the number of contacts go up, and their expectations go up.

One of the things he thinks is really interesting is that people are now expecting online speed of service in the real world. So an example he uses a lot is, it’s different on the experience, if you go to a store, you see something you like maybe it's the colour you want is out of stock, or the price is too high. So you can scan it on your phone, and have it delivered for an online retailer before you get home.

So, that kind of intersection of the real world and the digital world drives incredible expectations increase. And the problem brands have is that they have relatively flat budgets and resources to meet these expectations, that's incredibly hard.

So, what Verint does is delivers they call “CX Automation Capabilities or Customer Experience Automation”, ways they can help the employees of brands meet these expectations without having to do exponential increases in hiring. So, what they do is they help their customers engage better with their consumers to meet their expectations in the most efficient and productive and deliver great experiences across the board.

Overarching Themes or Pain Points that Your Customers Have Challenges With

Me: Based on your experience, Dave, in the customer engagement space and the different customers that you work with, what would you say are maybe two or three overarching themes or pain points that your customers predominantly have challenges with as it relates to closing that engagement gap?

Dave shared that he looks at from one pain point any two dimensions. One is, from the customer perspective, it's interesting, the common belief used to be channel switching is bad, you should deal with customers and solve their problem with a channel they first reach out on. But that's changing, customers and consumers want to change channels at their own direction, right. So, you may start with an email then flip to chat, then call in, then follow up of an email, that's fine, that's how consumers want to interact, especially since all of those channels now land on your smartphone, it's not like you're moving to a different device per channel.

And that creates a real challenge for brands to be able to manage all these channels in a completely seamless way so that customers aren't repeating themselves every time they connect.

And then on the flip side, the challenge for employees is, theme probably come up a few times here is great employee experiences are necessary for great customer experiences.

If your employees are disengaged and stressed out and don't have the tools they need, then they're poor experience is going to just seem is going to translate to poor customer experiences.

So, he thinks brands really struggle with how do you manage the customer need for seamless interaction and continuity of interaction across channels, while also providing the engagement, the tools and the experiences for their employees that allow them to deliver great experiences to customers when they interact.

Things an Organization Needs to Focus on to Set Themselves Apart From the Competition and Supersede Their Customers’ Expectations

Me: Now Dave, we are basically closing out 2023 and we're embarking on a new calendar year, lots of things happening across different industries throughout the globe. What do you think are maybe two things if your clients came to you and said, “Dave, as the subject matter expert in this area, where do you think we need to be putting our focus for 2024 to kind of set ourselves apart from the competition and really be able to supersede our customers’ expectations?”

“What would those two things be based on your experience, as well as maybe what the data is actually telling you?”

Dave shared that there's a couple of things, they’re both related. He would classify 2023 as the year of experimenting with AI, Gen AI and Chat GPT, and Open AI, all that really hit the world in a big way, Novemberish of 2022.

And through this year, a lot of brands are experimenting with how do we use this to deliver better content, deliver better answers, support our customers better, but it's very much been a year of experimentation.

He thinks 2024 is the year where that has to get operationalized. Brands need to look at, “Okay, we've experimented with this for year, we've done some trials, next year is the year to make that drive value for us.” is one thing.

The second thing, he thinks this is really important. And this is core to the ethos of a Verin is think about employee and human augmentation, not replacement. So, for a long time, there's been this belief or this talk track that, “Hey, if we get the right Chatbots and the right RPA and the right tech in place, we won't need people anymore, we can automate that away.” And he doesn't believe the data shows us, that's not the case. There are things that humans are better at than machines, at a certain level of complexity and value and emotional importance, humans want to speak to humans.

So, he thinks the focus of AI and automation, and we're very focused is our delivery of CX automation is really around human augmentation, because that gives the employees the power and the great experience that lets them help customers in a better way. So, 2024 is going to be the year of getting value from AI versus experimenting and pivoting from human replacement to human augmentation with CX automation.

App, Website or Tool that Dave Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Dave shared that there is so many, for them he'd say broadly it's access to knowledge that comes in a few different ways.

So, it's the ability to do research on the internet in general and is to get access to broad information. And he thinks right now, looking at some of the Gen AI and the rag tools that let us turn that information into knowledge to get answers faster.

So really, for him, it's all about getting to answers, so any of the any of the online tools that allows for knowledge retrieval quickly. And again, we have knowledge management solutions and wiki solutions, things like that. But to him, it's all about access to knowledge and answers quickly.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Dave

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Dave shared that Outside In: The Power of Putting Customers at the Center of Your Business by Harley Manning is a great book, it's a classic that always reminds us to focus, look at things from the customer perspective, and design our solutions and our tools, our processes, from the point of view of the customer, not the point of view of what we as a company, or we as a brand want to do. That's one of being pivotal in how he thinks about things.

Another one that he thinks is great just from a business strategy book is What Got You Here Won't Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith. So again, it reminds us that things change, that things change increasingly quickly. So, we always have to be evaluating our strategies and our approaches and our solutions to adapt to where we are right now and where we want to get to.

And just because a pattern worked for us last year, doesn't mean it's going to work this year, doesn't mean throw it away. But you just can't have that assumption that doing the same thing over and over again, is going to keep having the same results going forward.

So, he would just look at those two and ones he read both a while ago, but come back to all the time, the focus on customer perspective first and always evaluate are your strategies effective right now? Not were they effective last year is really important.

What Dave is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Dave stated that first he’s going to share something completely unbusiness related, personal that he’s excited about that he'll bring it back. So, his daughter just started college this year and he’s really excited to watch that process of her learning and growing and moving from a kid in high school to a to a young woman in college and getting ready to meet the world. So, he thinks it's first aside from the fact he’s just so proud of her, it's just really exciting to watch and remember what that development looks like and feels like and how to take that forward.

The other thing if anyone has seen him on video sometimes, his office, he has martial arts weapons all over his office, he’s been training that for a while. He’s currently training for his next rank, which is exciting for him personally. But one of the core concepts in martial arts is something called beginner's mind, which says no matter how advanced or experienced you get, you can never forget that you're always the beginner at something. There's always more to learn about the basics. And every time he looks at training for a level or a promotion, it reminds him when he comes back to work that, “Hey, I always have more to learn, right. There's always something to pick up from even things I've done 1000 times.”

So again, he thinks that's a really important mindset going forward. And it's something he reinforced with his teams all the time is, just because you think you know, doesn't mean you know.

Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you couldn't be better. Just because someone does something differently in the way you do it doesn't mean it's worse, it just means it's different, it's something to learn from that. So, he thinks bringing that concept of beginner's mind back and keeping that, it keeps you humble, and keeps you open to getting better every day.

Me: Yeah, those are really good points. Awesome.

Where Can We Find Dave Online

Website - www.verint.com

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/verint

X - @Verint

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/verint

LinkedIn – David Singer

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Dave Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Dave shared that it's not so much a quote but he just believe there's always a path forward. “And just because you don't see the path in front of you right this second, doesn't mean it's not there.” So, for him, when things get tough, he just remember that just because he doesn't see the path right now, doesn't mean if he doesn't take two steps forward, he’s going to break through the trees, it's going to be right there. So, holding on to that fact is how he gets through adversity or when times maybe aren’t turning the way he thinks they are.

Me: So, there's always a path forward. Alright, thank you so much for sharing Dave. Well, Dave, just wanted to say thank you very much for taking time out of your very busy schedule, and hopping on our podcast and sharing a little bit about your journey, as well as what you do at Verint and the great value that Verint is bringing as it relates to customer engagement and closing that gap for the many different organizations and customers that you work with. And also some of the things that organizations should try to focus on for 2024 as we really try to utilize all of the different knowledge sources, and technology opportunities that have been presented to us in a way that really helps to exceed the customers’ expectations and even give them what they need or want before they even know that they need it or want it, so really enjoyed the conversation and I just want to express our deepest gratitude to you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Outside In: The Power of Putting Customers at the Center of Your Business by Harley Manning

• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Matt Abrahams is a leading expert in communication with decades of experience as an educator, author, podcast host and coach. As a Lecturer in Organisational Behaviour at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business, he teaches popular classes in strategic communication and effective virtual presenting. He received Stanford GSB’s Alumni Teaching Award in recognition of his teaching students around the world.

When he isn’t teaching, Matt is a sought-after keynote speaker and communication consultant. He has helped countless presenters improve and hone their communication, including some who have delivered IPO road shows as well as TED, World Economic Forum, and Nobel Prize presentations.

His online talks garner millions of views and he hosts the popular award-winning podcast Think Fast, Talk Smart: The Podcast. He is the author of Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot. His previous book, Speaking Up without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident and Compelling Presenting has helped thousands of people manage speaking anxiety and present more confidently and authentically.

Questions

• So, We always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got to where you are today, in your own words.

• In Entrepreneurs Magazine, your article, it was called How to Sound Smart and Memorable Anytime. So, I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about the technique that you talk about in the article.

• Are there any other techniques that you encourage someone to practice in order to overcome that speaking anxiety?

• A big part of communication outside of speaking is listening, what has been your experience as a coach trying to help people to become better listeners?

• Can you share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can’t live without in your business?

• We'd also like for you to share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read, could be a book that you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but the book has had a very big impact on you.

• Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, Matt, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Matt’s Journey

Matt shared that he’s somebody who has always been passionate and curious about communication. He remembers as a young child, being fascinated with how people communicate. In fact, one day, his mother decided it was important for him and his brother to have a yard sale, a garage sale because they had so much stuff, she was frustrated and wanted to get rid of it.

And where he grew up, there were lots of garage sales all over the place. And his mother specifically said, misspell the word garage on the signs that they were putting up and he was surprised by this advice. But they did and they inserted the letter “B” in the word garage. So, they had a garbage sale while everybody else had a garage sale. And they sold more stuff than anybody that weekend. And at that moment, he realised wow, the way you speak, the language you use, the words you use can influence people.

So, ever since then he’s been fascinated by it, he studied it in school in graduate school, he worked in the corporate world for over a decade and saw the impact of communication both good and bad. And to this day, he finds it fascinating and do a lot of work in the field.

Techniques Talked About in The Article from Entrepreneurs Magazine, How to Sound Smarter and Memorable Anytime

Me: Now, I was lucky enough when travelling in October to purchase a copy of Entrepreneur Magazine. And I came upon your article, “How to Sound Smart and Memorable Anytime.” And I read the article and I was so intrigued, it caught my attention so much that I was like, “Oh my goodness, I have find this gentleman on LinkedIn and I have to invite him as guest on our podcast.” And so, I would just love for you to share the technique that you talked about in this article as it relates to communication and presenting and just share with our listeners a little bit about what that technique can do to improve on your presentations.

Matt shared that when it comes to communicating, especially communicating in the moment, it is critical that we are effective and we come off as confident, competent and clear. Many of us get very nervous when we have to speak in the moment and it can be very challenging for us. So, he has spent a lot of his last little bit of times trying to learn how to help people be better at speaking in the moment and that's what his whole new book is about. It's really about helping people feel better in the moment so that they can come off as confident and comfortable and help those better understand what it is they're talking about.

So, the article that you're referring to is really about one of the ways that we can go about sounding better and more intelligent when we speak, it's leveraging a specific structure. So, what's critical in our communication is that we package the information up in a way that is readily digestible by our audience. Many of us when we communicate spontaneously just itemize information, we share what we're thinking as we're thinking it. And that's not how people process information.

He talked to many neuroscientists and they say our brains are wired for story, something that has a beginning, a middle and an end, logical connections of ideas.

So, in the article and one of the things he teaches a lot is how do you put structure to communication? And he talked about one of his favourite structures, it's three questions. What?, So, what? Now, What?

What is the idea you're talking about? It's your product, your service, your offering your update, your feedback, it is the what?

So, what is why is it important and relevant to your audience? We have known for decades that content that is relevant and salient for an audience is what they pay attention to.

And then finally, now, what is what comes next? Maybe it's do you have questions for me, or let me show you a demonstration, or let's set up another meeting.

So, by simply following the structure, What, So, what, Now, what, answering those questions, you can package up your information nicely. In fact, he just used that structure to help explain the structure. He told you what it was, why it's important, and how you can use it. So, that article, and a lot of what he does is really about helping people learn different structures for different speaking situations.

Me: Amazing. And you also had some other structures that you mentioned in the article where you spoke about:

· Problem, Solution, Benefit

· Point, Reason, Example point

· Comparison, Contrast, Conclusion

· Situation, Task, Action and Result

Could you just elaborate, maybe about 10 to 20 seconds on each for those just for our listeners, as well?

Matt shared that when it comes to speaking in the moment, there lots of different types of circumstances and situations that we find ourselves in. And different structures apply for different situations. So, when you're selling something, trying to persuade somebody of something, a very useful structure is problem, solution, benefit.

Many of us have found ourselves in circumstances where we need to persuade, so you articulate the problem, challenge or issue, you then explain your suggestion for how we go about solving it. And then you explain the benefits of doing so. So, that can be a very useful structure. In fact, any television advertisement you've ever seen has been in that structure.

There are other structures as well. In the article, he talked about another one, he recommends that people use a lot, which is comparison, contrast, conclusion, you compare two items together or three, or four. And then you talk about how they're different, that's the contrast. And then you give your conclusion. There are myriad structures out there, people are familiar with some, others not so familiar with. But the idea is to have a toolkit of structures that you can leverage to help you in those moments where you're struggling.

Techniques Encouraged to Practice in Order to Overcome Speaking Anxiety

Me: So, a big part of what you do as well, Matt is trying to help people get over the anxiety of presenting in front of a lot of people confidently, and I know structure, the methodology of the structure will definitely help you to have a little bit more focus, and you will have something in place versus just going up there and not knowing what to say. But are there any other techniques that you encourage someone to practice in order to overcome that speaking anxiety?

Matt shared that first and foremost, he doesn't think you can overcome anxiety, he thinks we can become more comfortable with it, we can learn to manage it. But would we even want to overcome it, anxiety is actually helpful to us, it is something that helps us focus, it allows us to be sure that what we're saying is important for ourselves and our audience, and it gives us energy. So, to him, it's all about managing anxiety, not overcoming anxiety.

And when it comes to that there are lots of things that people can do, we can manage both symptoms, as well as sources, symptoms are the things that we physiologically experience. And then sources are the things that initiate and exacerbate our anxiety.

So, it's important to attack both situations. So, symptoms are the things that we experienced, so many people get shaky, they feel their heart rate go up, so to help those with specific techniques, for example, deep belly breathing, you can breathe, take a slow inhale in and a longer exhale out and that will actually initiate a relaxation response that can help and it doesn't take very much to actually have that take effect.

If you're shaky that's adrenaline trying to move you from threat towards safety and that means that we can do some movement in the beginning of a presentation stepping forward towards the audience, big broad gestures that gives the adrenaline a place to go and that way we can feel less anxious of our symptoms.

Now there are sources too, sources are the things that start our anxiety and continue it.

The biggest source of anxiety is people have a goal when they speak and it's good to have a goal when you speak. But we're afraid we won't achieve our goal and if you think about it, that means we're afraid that we won't achieve a future outcome.

So, the way to short circuit goal based anxiety is to become present, be focused in the moment, focus on what you're saying, focus on the audience and their needs, do something physical to get you in your body out of your head. These are all ways to manage the source of future thoughts.

So, there's a lot we can do to manage anxiety, the very first book he wrote was called Speaking Up without Freaking Out, it's a 50 techniques to help people feel better and more comfortable in the moment speaking. So, if we can manage our anxiety, we're going to do much better when it comes to our mission.

Communication: Apart from Speaking, How to Become a Better Listener

Me: I believe a big part of communication outside of speaking, which I think the bigger part of communication that's way more important than speaking is listening. What has been your experience as a coach trying to help people to become better listeners, sometimes you're in a conversation, and I find that I have a challenge personally, with persons when I'm communicating, and they don't give you a moment to express your thought fully, and they start talking in the middle of your sentence. So, you're not even able to complete what you're actually saying and how do you get to that point where you can be present in the moment when the person is speaking so you can take in all that they're saying to you and process that information carefully, before actually making a response and get to the speaking part.

Matt shared that yes, listening is really important and many of us don't do it well. In fact, he heard somebody say, “Listening is really just what we do when we're waiting for our turn.”

You need to listen deeply, focused in a present oriented way to really not only show that you care about the person to connect, but also to understand what's needed in the moment.

Giving an example. Imagine you and him come out of a meeting and you say to him, “Matt, what do you think?” And he says, “Oh, good, she wants feedback. Let me give it. Well, this work, this didn't work, you could have done this better, we should have done this, etc.” But had he really listened, he might have noticed that your tone was a little quieter than usual. You came down to the back door instead of the front door, you were looking down when you asked him that question, what you really needed in that moment was not feedback, but it was support, and he missed the clues and cues. And he by jumping into giving you all this harsh feedback might have damaged the relationship.

So, we need to learn to listen well. How do you do that?

First and foremost, you listen for the bottom line, when we focus on what the person is saying in a deep way. What's the bottom line, we listen with a much more focused intensity than how we normally do it, which is just the top line, just the gist, what are they saying. And then as soon as we hear it, we begin rehearsing and evaluating and judging and that works against us really understanding.

So, the way to become a better listener is to listen for the bottom line, to give yourself permission to pay attention not just to what they're saying but how they're saying it, context in which you're saying it. This is hard work. Listening is challenging. He heard somebody once say, “You should listen until you sweat.” And he loves that idea, because it's implying that listening is an active activity, something that we really need to focus on. So, he loves that Yanique brought up that question, and he hopes everybody listening takes time to listen better.

App, Website or Tool that Matt Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he can’t live without in his business, Matt shared that he gets a tonne of email and he uses a tool called Superhuman to help him parse through his email. It is an amazing tool, it has probably saved him 30%....40% of his email processing time. He loves the tool. He met the founder of the company a number of years ago, when he explained to him what he was working on, he fell in love with it instantly. And it is the tool he uses the most and it is the most helpful tool to him.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Matt

When asked about books that have had an impact, Matt shared that beyond the books that he’s written, which has had a huge impact on him. He’s learned a lot in writing those two books Think Faster, Talk Smarter and Speaking up Without Freaking Out.

There are two books that he recommends to everybody. The first book is called Improv Wisdom, Improv Wisdom: Don’t Prepare, Just Show Up by Patricia Ryan Madson. It is a very short book, but it is life changing. It has changed his life. It is a book that talks about the rules and ways that improvisation, improv can be applied to daily life. So, it's not about being funny, it's not about being up on a stage. It's about how to live your life in a more present oriented, connected, spontaneous way. Fantastic book!

The other book is a book he recommends to anybody looking to get better at their communication. It is an older book, as is Improv Wisdom. It is called Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die by Dan and Chip Heath, Chip Heath actually is a colleague of his at Stanford's Business School. It's all about how to make your ideas stand out and stick in people's minds in a world where there's a lot of things pulling at our attention. They give a six step methodology much like he does in his new book, that's all about how to make your ideas stick. He thinks everybody who wants to improve their communication, and they're lives should check out both of those books.

What Matt is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that’s he’s excited about, Matt shared that he’s very, very excited about the podcast he host Think Fast, Talk Smart, he’s dedicating a lot of his time and resources to expanding and extending the communication best practices and tips that they share through experts. He believes it helps him become a better person, a better communicator and he certainly thinks it helps everybody. So, he’s excited in the new year to put a lot of effort into that.

Me: Perfect. Okay, thank you for sharing Matt. We'll also have a link to Matt's podcast in the episode show notes as well, for anyone that would like to tap into Matt's podcast and gain some more insight on being a better communicator.

Where Can We Find Matt Online

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams

Website – www.mattabrahams.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Matt Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Matt shared that it's a quote that he heard first in a silly movie, a movie called Buckaroo Banzai. And then he says he’s showing his age, because it's many, many, many years ago. He knows it didn't come from this movie, but the quote is simple, “No matter where you go, there you are.”

And he often can live in the future, he can be worried and thinking about future consequences, what comes next. And he has learned that something that can help ground him is simply to come back to the present and say, no matter where you go, there you are, deal with what's coming on in front of you and that's how we get things moving forward. So, that's one of his favourite quotes and one that helps him a lot.

Me: So, thank you so much, Matt, for taking time out of your very busy schedule, for hopping on this podcast and being so gracious in facilitating this interview when I reached out to you originally. I definitely have gotten your book, I've started reading it and I've definitely shared it. I think I've shared it with at least maybe two or three organizations that I've done training with between October and December when I was first introduced to you through that article, so I think you're doing great work. And I really appreciate the time that you've taken to hop on our podcast and just share some great insights that I believe as customer experience practitioners that we can definitely use to enhance the service delivery that we have if we improve on our communication skills.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You’re Put on the Spot by Matt Abrahams

• Speaking Up without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident and Compelling Presenting by Matthew Abrahams

• Improv Wisdom: Don’t Prepare, Just Show Up by Patricia Ryan Madson

• Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die by Chip Heath and Dan Heath

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Michelle Pascoe (CSP) is an international speaker, accredited trainer, researcher, author, podcaster and experienced businesswoman. She has an undeniable passion for customer service, mystery shopping and team motivation, and is a specialist in every aspect of service operations and processes and their impact on the customer experience.

In 1994, she founded one of Australia's most respected training companies, Optimum Operating Procedures and Services Pty Ltd (OOPS). Serving the hospitality industry for almost 30 years, OOPS is still a thriving provider of mystery shopping, service benchmarking, surveys and focus groups, competitor audits, team training and leadership development - including the highly successful Middle Management Movement program.

Michelle’s key focus on passion pertain to service delivery and the expectations of the 21st century customer, through mapping their journey, and she firmly believes that a feeling of belonging created throughout the experience is a key point of difference in creating the essential human connection.

Questions

• So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

• Could you maybe just put in context for us just how it is that services in your country currently are in your part of the world? And what are some of the main service issues, maybe across different industries, if there is like maybe a two or three overarching themes that you've identified since you work with different organisations that you've found that companies tend to struggle with in terms of delivering that excellent service?

• One of the things I wanted to find out from you, as it relates to that specific point, do you believe that the customer becoming rude is a behavioural issue that is maybe cultural in terms of just their mannerism? Or do you think it is a catalyst as a result of how they're being treated?

• And as listeners of this podcast, if there was like a business owner, or maybe a senior person in a customer success or customer experience department that would be listening to this episode, and they themselves are considering doing such an activity (mystery shop) for 2024, what would be your advice? What are some of the benefits that you think will be derived?

• Now, can you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you, or even one that you've read recently.

• Now, Michelle, can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or you went off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Michelle’s Journey

Me: Now, before we start getting into the core of the conversation, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their own journey. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

Michelle shared that she started her business back in 1994. So, it only seems like yesterday, even though it's nearly 30 years, 3 decades. And how she got into the industry was she’s been an employee for a number of years in the hospitality and marketing fields and she had a horrific interview and she thought back to herself then, this is not a way to run a business.

So, after a very short period of time, she did some various courses, business courses, and she started her own business. Now the development over the years from back then, which was offering more piping services because that was one thing she was good at, she slowly moved into training. And then within a few short years, got into the hospitality industry and absolutely love it, because to her, the connection with the customer, both the internal and the external customer, just gives her so much joy and passion.

And over that time, some of those young boys and girls she trained nearly 30 years ago are now CEOs of their own businesses, and she has had the honour and privilege of seeing their own personal journey. But they have also taken her on the journey through the various companies that they have been with. So yes, it's been a wonderful 3 decades and she looks forward to more years ahead of her.

In Terms of Delivering Excellent Service, What Are Some Main Service Issues or Overarching Themes Identified Working with Different Organizations

Me: So, you are in the service industry for many, many years now. And I know services pretty much standard across most countries across the world. I've interviewed persons from Australia before on this podcast, but I always like to get a perspective from people that are from different parts of the world. So, could you maybe just put in context for us just how it is that services in your country currently or in your part of the world? And what are some of the main service issues, maybe across different industries, if there is like maybe a two or three overarching themes that you've identified since you work with different organizations that you've found that companies tend to struggle with in terms of delivering that excellent service?

Michelle stated yes, you are correct in the sense that service is an expectation no matter what country we are in, in the world. However, in Australia, and she says it's very similar, she’s not long back from the US herself, is that they are still struggling to have people apply for positions. Now, Australia is a very large country, they have a lot of regional areas that their city people and their overseas tourists love to come to, to travel and enjoy the outback areas, however, their expectation is that the restaurants will be open, the hotels will be open, the service will be impeccable, and it should be and the owners of those businesses really try. But it’s very, very, very hard to get staff at the moment.

They are finding when they closed their borders, a lot of their overseas backpackers who work predominantly in the hospitality industry have not returned, it's very slow. And they're also finding even in their city venues, and this is across all industries, not just hospitality, that it's a longer process now for people to actually come in to businesses and wish to apply. Before 2020, they were finding that they have a number of applicants they could choose from, but now it is trying to even get people to apply and then retain them. The world has changed in that not that everybody just comes to work at home, because that's just not serviceable, particularly in the hospitality. But it's understanding that we are now working with four key generations.

And so, what are we offering them in the workplace that is going to provide not just that simple analogy of lifework balance, but actually what are we actually asking them questions, finding out what they're needing? And she thinks we're finding the businesses that are doing that and changing the rostering system to perhaps what it was always been for many, many years, is attracting the right applicants slowly, but it is getting better. So, she thinks that's probably one of the key areas.

When it comes to service is understanding what customer's needs are. There's a lot of intolerance, there's a lot of entitlement from customers, she'll put her hand up and openly say that they see that so often, the rudeness of customers and this idea that they think that provider of that service is a servant, and not just providing a service. And that's what they're doing. People are providing a service, they are serving them, but they are not a servant.

So, they do find that a lot of people that are new in the industry when it comes to customer service, whether it's retail, hospitality, real estate, that they leave pretty quickly, because they get hurt, the resilience is low, it's hard, some customers are quite rude. So, how can handle that? Certainly an area that she’s finding they work on a lot with the training now is how do we handle those customers? What can we do proactively before they become that intolerable customer, so to speak?

And the other is consistency, and they'll talk about that a little bit later on is that companies do clearly need to define what the vision is, what their values are, and what their expectations, because they find that when they're not, businesses that they'll be highly recommended one way, and then social media will destroy them the following way. And it may well be due to something that it could be easily fixed if they had a clear vision and expectations were set beforehand. So, they're probably the three areas that they're finding that's impacting the businesses across in Australia.

Customer Behaviour

Me: I found it interesting when you mentioned that the customer becomes rude and as a result of that you find that a lot of people are leaving from the customer experience professions because their tolerance becomes very low because of how they're treated. I don't think I've ever heard anyone put it in that perspective before but one of the things I wanted to find out from you, as it relates to that specific point, do you believe that the customer becoming rude is a behavioural issue that is maybe cultural in terms of just their mannerism? Or do you think it is a catalyst as a result of how they're being treated, their needs not being met, communication not being consistent and clear and that propels them into that state of being very intolerable and aggravated and rude to the customer service providers. What has your experience been there?

Michelle stated that that's a really good question. People's expectations have changed, we now have a world that everything is instant and we see so often that they now believe it's all about me, we see that on the roads, when people are driving the road, they won't let you in or they believe that they should be at the front of the queue, because they've got a busy day. And it's all this self-entitlement, now, this certainly is not all our customers and unfortunately, they are the minority, but they make the most noise and they impact the most on our beautiful people that are providing the service.

So, it is this feeling of self-entitlement. We've found with those couple of years of shutdown, in particular, that the people that were coming out of that they are still learning that they have to wait for service, that they have to understand things are a little bit slower. And she thinks that's what's really key is when that is shared with them, it's communicating, it's not making excuses from the company, but the company sharing with them, she’s seen them in the USA, small signs that we're short on staff, sorry, for the delays, we are wanting to provide you the best customer service. Now, she knows not everybody reads signs, but just that little bit of a pre warning may assist with some customers, but those ones that are totally intolerable, we're going to handle them because that's just part of what service is, but it doesn't mean we have to accept rude behaviour.

And she thinks that's where it has to be very clearly communicated to the frontline team that management or the owner of the business won't accept that and will intervene when a customer has overstepped the comments perhaps, or their interactions with that service provider or is impacting with other customers, there’s not a lot, there's only a few, but they do find, and what they're finding there more and more is that these people just believe that they're entitled to have this service right now and don't worry about anybody else, which is disappointing.

What are Some of the Benefits that Derived from Market Research (Mystery Shopping)

Me: Now, a big part of what you do, based on what we read in your bio was also mystery shopping. And I'm sure you do mystery shopping across many different industries, have you found that the mystery shopping helps to identify to organisations what their key pain points are? And as listeners of this podcast, if there was like a business owner, or maybe a senior person in a customer success or customer experience department that would be listening to this episode, and they themselves are considering doing such an activity for 2024, what would be your advice? What are some of the benefits that you think will be derived?

Because the intervention itself of mystery shopping can be a very expensive venture, why would you recommend to a CEO or someone who is in customer success or customer experience, to recommend to their organization to invest in something like this? Because I find a lot of organizations tend to, they may want to do it, they hear about it, but then they're not able to connect the dots in terms of the financial gain that they're going to get from a report like that, or data submitted from that and how does that translate into transforming the experience that it will increase the dollar value in their organization, when they look at their bottom line at the end of the year, there's more money, not less money.

Michelle stated another great question, and she loves mystery shopping. When she first created their own proprietary software, which is over two decades now, she never wanted it to be defined or catch people out in it. A lot of frontline team members, as well as owners of businesses think mystery shopping is all about finding the faults in your business. She’s always changed the narrative around that, that they're looking for the shining lights in your business, as well as where there are opportunities.

So, if she can just give a quick analogy of the reports that they do is both objective and subjective. Now, you have to have those both areas in mystery shopping. There is no point in just having a score, because a number means absolutely nothing unless it has got qualitative research behind it.

Now, quantitative research which gives you those stats, it's important because you've got that number then to go, “Alright, we've got 85 this month, and what can we put in place now to rise that number.” But you want to understand, how did you get that number of 85, so for the listeners, she would say first off, break up the report, what they're going to look up into four key areas, the service, image, marketing, and compliance or regulations that they may have in their particular industry, or even their own personal regulations or compliance in their own business.

And then when looking at those questions, it's both looking at them that purely objective questioning where, are they wearing their name badge? Yes or no. But then it could be, you'd have a number of questions about that actual service, did they take an audit? Did they use your name? Did they offer you an option there all those objective questions, which are fantastic for those scores, that you can measure that data every month, or how often you do it. But then it's about that qualitative information. Because, at times, we could have an experience where the register doesn't work, or there could be an issue with the actual process of delivering a particular product, but it is how it's handled by that frontline person, or that owner of that business that brings in that subjective experience. And that's what's absolutely key.

So, having those questions in there, and that ability to make a comment on those questions. And it could be, the register was not able to be used, it was broken down, so instead of the staff member just shrugging their shoulders and saying, “Oh, can't serve you it doesn't work.”

What did they do? Did they do they offer for you to take a little bit longer to walk around the store? Do they ask you to come in and having a sit down, we can serve you the coffee, and then payment can be a little bit less? What was those ways that you and your team connected with that person who's coming to your business, to ensure that they have this amazing experience, even when things aren't working the 100%.

So, yes, mystery shopping can be expensive, it doesn't always have to be but a couple of tips, is you're investing in your team, this is not about catching people out, it is about those shining lights that show to others how wonderful, what happens when the service is provided, the impact that it has, and also gives you the opportunity to get some very important and information back from your customers. It also shows you where there are friction points, those pain points where the length of time is too long. She does a lot of research in multi generations, as you may well be aware in particularly Gen Z, they're looking for that frictionless point, they don't want to be held up in queues, they want to be able to just order and the foods delivered, for example.

So, mystery shopping identifies where those friction points are, and also identify those areas that are working really well. Or perhaps there's an area that it's working, but what can we do to step it up. So, she’s going to say mystery shopping as an investment.

And she’s had same clients for over two decades, and the data that she has on them, particularly one client, they started off with one business, they have now gone into seven different businesses, they've reached out into other areas of business and different forms of industry. And all because they've always measured what they've done the month before with the mystery shopping. So, she can understand that some businesses may feel it's an expense, but it is truly an investment in their business, as well as in their team.

App, Website or Tool that Michelle Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Michelle shared that it's funny the technology you always think it's great when it's working, but when it doesn’t, it can be frustrating. One of the beautiful tools that has really come out is Canva. And it's an Australian girl who started and it is now worldwide where you can create anything, it is absolutely beautiful. You can create posters, you can just create words and everything just looks wonderful. She suggest to the listeners to have a look at that Canva is really good.

The online platform she uses for all her online training is Kajabi and she found that out through coming to the US, she comes quite often throughout the years. And she loves that for an online platform, and she suppose, as an app, and what we're all getting into now many of us is this Chat GPT, how to use it wisely. But she’s found it's good, you can put the information in there, ask it to give you some ideas, you don't take them all but it's certainly a way of well, “How do we make this perhaps what I said a bit more compelling in the written word.” But yes, they'd be her three Canva, Kajabi and Chat GPT.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Michelle

When asked about books that has had an impact, Michelle shared that she’s an avid reader. She loves reading and self-development in business she thinks is absolutely key. But most recently, when she says most recently, it was the start of last year, she was given the book, The Gap and The Gain: The High Achievers’ Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy, phenomenal book, have you read that book?

Me: I have not.

Michelle stated that she just got it here in front of her. It's got the High Achievers’ Guide to Happiness, Competence and Success. And when you go through the book, the both of them speak about and many of us know that Dan Sullivan is the founder of some strategic coaches. Too often in life, we look at that gap, instead of looking at what we've gained. She always say to her clients, those wanting to build their membership and they start off at zero. And they say, “Oh, you know, we wanted to achieve 100 new members by the end of the week.” And when they get to 50, when she sees them, they go, “Oh, we only got 50.” And all they're worried about is the 50 that they didn't get, but she said, and this is what comes from the sport is, but look at the gain, you started off with zero, and now you've got 50, that's fantastic.

And honestly, it is a book that changed her whole course and her business. And she’s saying that with hand on heart, it is a book that not only has changed her business, but also her life and her thoughts in too often we spend in that gap and not enough time again and how to do that. And they've written some further books both of them together.

The other was Who Not How: The Formula to Achieve Bigger Goals Through Accelerating Teamwork, which is fantastic. And of course, there's another book, it's just come out about 10xing and how to 10x instead of 2x. So, her absolute favourite is The Gap and The Gain. So, whether it's book four, which she loves on Audible, is just as interesting and informative.

What Michelle is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about right now, Michelle shared that she was thinking about this question. And as she said a moment ago, she truly believes in self-development in business. She has ensured that she has spent a lot of time in the US doing multiple courses, also in Australia, in Europe and Asia, bringing that information back to her team and to her clients.

So, at the moment, what they're very excited about is planning well in advance for 2024 in how they can deliver their programs even further outreach to their regional areas in Australia, and also globally. So, that's exciting for them because when they develop the business, it develops and rises their whole team, I've got her beautiful researcher, she also has another who does a lot of the researching so by developing new niches, new areas globally, it will certainly provide them more work.

Where Can We Find Michelle Online

LinkedIn – www.linkedin.com/in/michellepascoe

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/MichellePascoeVIP

Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/michelle.pascoe/

Website – www.michellepascoe.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Michelle Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Michelle stated that she does and it was one that she actually created herself, many years ago after doing a course about choice theory and meeting different people from very diverse backgrounds over the years, is that “We choose the life that we truly deserve, not the life that others choose for us.” And she lives by that. And she shares that with every client that she comes in contact with because not everybody sees the potential that they have inside them. And there are so many people that impact others on their thoughts and the decisions in their life. But yes, choose the life that you truly deserve, not the one that others choose for you.

Me: Brilliant. Alright, Michelle. Well, thank you so much for coming on our podcast today and taking time out of your schedule to kind of share about customer experience and what are some of the key things that organizations can gain from really focusing on this aspect of their business. Also tapping into the key things that market research, specifically mystery shopping can do for a business regardless of the industry. And of course, to turn the perspective of how organizations may look at mystery shopping more from who are the shining persons that will be identified from the research and any opportunities for improvement….I thought that was really cool. So, thank you so much again, and we wish you all the very best. And thank you for joining us.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Gap and The Gain: The High Achievers’ Guide to Happiness, Confidence, and Success by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy

• Who Not How: The Formula to Achieve Bigger Goals Through Accelerating Teamwork by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Joanna Hagelberger is currently the Vice President of Customer Success at Rhoads Online, a technology provider of compliance solutions to the insurance industry. Her entire professional career has been in the insurance industry with the last 20 years in insurtech. Joanna is passionate about the customer experience, particularly the benefit a strong account management program can bring to an organization and its customers.

In her current role, Joanna is responsible for ensuring customers and prospects are having the best possible experience with Rhoads. Joanna received her BS and MS in Communication from Florida State University, she is a licenced insurance agent in the state of Michigan and she is a certified Executive Coach.

Questions

• Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey? How it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

• Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Rhoads Online? What is Rhoads Online? And what value do they bring to their customer base?

• Could you tell us maybe three things you've seen as recurring themes that come across being more proactive than reactive in the space that you operate in to ensure that you're able to maximize on customer success?

• What are maybe one or two things that you believe as an organisation, especially in the insurance industry, specifically, you would need to be focusing on to ensure that you're setting yourself apart and truly giving the customer more than they expect, and kind of living to what you were saying, trying to predict their needs before they know they even need it.

• Could you share with our listeners, what's the one online tool, app or website that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, any books that you've read, it could be a book that you've read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it has had a great impact on you.

• Now Joanna, can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track? This quote kind of helps you to get back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Joanna’s Journey

Me: Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey? How it is that you got from where you were to where you are today?

Joanna shared that she can tell you that no one as a little girl dreams or as a kid dreams someday I'm going to be working in insurance. So, most people decided, stumble into it somewhere along the way. And hers was a work study position when she was in college as a part of her financial aid, she was given a job working in the Employee Benefits Office at Florida State. And that ended up taking her into their insurance office where they administered their insurance, how their employees got insurance.

So, when she got out of grad school, and was looking for a job, she had this insurance knowledge of how the insurance space worked and that landed her with a position of a company that is today known as Willis Towers Watson. It was well as Willis at the time and became just Willis last year, and Madonna. And now has added new names again. So, that has taken her down a path, she’s worked for insurance brokers, insurance agencies, insurance companies, third party administrators, she’s been on all different sides of the business.

And about 20 years ago, she had the opportunity to jump to the other side of the business, and work in insurance technology, where insurance historically has been a very paper based, manual, difficult industry where everything is delivered by paper, every form is completed with pen and paper. And this company was working to build automation with insurance producers, the people that actually sell the insurance, the insurance agencies and the insurance companies, and how they communicate with the State Departments of Insurance. And that's pretty much how she ended up where she is today, just have grown over time.

What is Rhoads Online?

Me: Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Rhoads Online? What is Rhoads Online? And what value do they bring to their customer base?

Joanna shared that just as she said that that insurtech that she went to 20 years ago, Rhoads is in that same space. So, what they do is help insurance companies and agencies predominantly connect those insurance producers, the people that are selling insurance, get them contracted, and make sure that they are appropriately licensed and credentialed to sell the insurance that they're selling before they do. Because if an individual sells a policy and they are not properly credentialed, they don't have all of the licenses contracts, and the insurance company hasn't told the state that that person is selling for them, then the insurance company gets in trouble. So, making that all of those ducks are in a row and everything is in order, it keeps the insurance company off the front page of the Wall Street Journal and allows them to sell compliantly and make sure that the consumer is protected when they do it.

Being Proactive Than Reactive to Ensure You Maximize on Customer Success

Me: Now, a big part of what you do is customer success. And of course, that's typically ensuring that the client is getting exactly what they want and desire. Not sure if this is a call that you made, or it's just something that you live by as a mantra, but it states, “You can't just be reactive, you have to be proactive, predicting their needs before they even realize it.” So, could you tell us maybe three things you've seen as recurring themes that come across being more proactive than reactive in the space that you operate in to ensure that you're able to maximize on customer success?

Joanna shared that she thinks this is in any industry, it's not specific to what she does. But customer service to her is something that is tactical and reactive. If you think about customer service, and customer service is something we all interact with, probably with a little bit of dread and we hope that it's a good experience that we're opening a Chatbot or we're sending in an email or opening a ticket, or calling an 800 number. And we hope that for whatever reason we're calling that number that whatever the issue is, is resolved. We want it to be resolved quickly and painlessly and to whatever satisfaction we hoped it would be.

And again, it's very reactive, it is in response to whatever I as the consumer is bringing forward to that company, or as the customer, if it's B2B or B2C, it doesn't matter, customer service is about fixing that one little thing that the person calling in has announced needs fixing.

Where customers success to her is, is the opposite of that. It isn't reactive, and it isn't tactical. The important thing is that we're being proactive, that we're getting in front of the customer, and being intentional about having strategic conversations. Because as the company is moving forward, and as they're growing, they want to make sure that that path forward and that growth is aligned with the path forward and the growth of their customers.

If their development team builds a brand new piece of functionality, and no one uses it, then that has been a waste of time of their development team number one, but also the opportunity costs that's lost, because they didn't build something that their customers would have really liked, what they would have used and what they would have needed. So, it is all about being proactive, and being strategic. And what she means by strategic is simply looking further ahead. It's not what's happening in the moment right now, it's where are we going together and making sure that those things stay aligned as they continue to move forward.

Because what her goals are and what she’s trying to accomplish in six months, a year, three years, five years, those are going to keep changing as time moves forward. So, making sure that they keep having those conversations, leaving those lines of communication open, sharing what's going on in the industry, and what's going on in their customers’ business, as well as what's going on in her business, that's how they all move forward and stay aligned.

Organization Setting Themselves Apart and Giving Customers More Than They Expect

Me: Now, you've been an insurance for over two decades, Joanna, and I'm sure you've seen lots of ups and downs, hills and gullies kind of thing. But in your own experience, especially as we're moving forward embarking on a new calendar year, what are maybe one or two things that you believe as an organization, especially in the insurance industry, specifically, you would need to be focusing on to ensure that you're setting yourself apart and truly giving the customer more than they expect, and kind of living to what you were saying, trying to predict their needs before they know they even need it.

Joanna stated that she really thinks the big thing, especially in the insurance industry, is that the Googles and Amazons of the world have set an expectation for across all industries, that technology is easy to use that “I should be able to get the answers to my questions with the click of a button and with the phone that's in my hand, I shouldn't have to go to the horror, a real computer, I should be able to from a mobile device, be able to do anything that I should need to be able to do with any business partner of mine from my phone.” So, she really thinks that that expectation is where the insurance industry needs to focus.

There's so much talk about AI and Blockchain and Chatbots and all of the magical technology that's out there. But if we can't meet the basic table stakes of being able to get a quote for insurance from her phone, then that insurance company will not be able to succeed. If she is standing on the side of the road and I live in Michigan in certain times of the year and they hit deer, it happens and if she’s on the side of the road because she’s just hit a deer or had any kind of an accident. If she can’t pull out her phone and initiate that claim from her phone, she’s not going to stay with that insurance company because they haven't met her need when she needed them. So, being able to meet those basic needs from core technology is where the insurance industry needs to focus right now.

App, Website or Tool that Joanna Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Joanna shared that she has a couple. Because of what she does, the CRM that they use, that's how she keeps her pulse on what's going on in their business. So, they happen to use Salesforce. But she’s used HubSpot in the past, and there are other great CRMs out there. But the most important thing is having one central repository to be able to see everything that's going on to the lifecycle of your customer. If you're working in customer experience and you can't see what's going on with your customers, and you're trying to use an Excel spreadsheet or some other form of technology, there's just no way to get that 360 degree view.

But personally, within customer success, there is an amazing website called kapta.com. And kapta.com is a technology that integrates with your CRM, not what she’s endorsing here, she’s sure it's great, but she’s not actually used that technology, but the number of resources that Kapta has on their website to help people that work in key account management, whatever form of that that is you work in, they have so many resources available to help account managers be successful with their customers, and to help organisations and leaders know how to help their account managers be successful. So, Kapta is amazing.

And then specifically in her industry, insurtech Connect, ITC has a six things newsletter that is just incredible. It keeps you informed of everything that could be going on in the insurance industry that has anything to do with technology. And it's an interesting read for anyone.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Joanna

When asked about books that have had a great impact her, Joanna shared that there are two that she finds herself going back to over and over and over again. And the first one is Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action by Simon Sinek, it helps from an organizational perspective, as well as on an individual perspective. Whether you're working with customers, with employees, “Knowing the Why of why you do what you do.”

And a common theme in her world is, it's not about you. It's not about her, it's not about what she’s doing. It's about the customer, and it's about the employee and why they do what they do. And if we can be other focus and know why people are motivated to do the things that they do. And to know what our Why is and why we get up each morning and why we're helping our customers and why these things matter. She’s listened to Simon's podcast, and it's just brilliant. And that all started with Start with Why for her.

The second one is a book called Unleashed: The Unapologetic Leader’s Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You, it's by Anne Morriss and Frances Frei. And it's all about empowerment, and when you're working in account management or customer success or customer service, this is a tough job, it's a tough job where the people in this space spend a lot of time getting yelled at oftentimes, and they're trying to make the customer's world a better place. And when you can come from a perspective of empowering those people to be successful, to have the ability to make the decisions that makes the customer's world a better place, it's better for the customer, it's better for the company, and it's better for the human that gets to make those decisions. If they sit there all day every day saying, “I'm sorry, I don't know. But I'll check on that and get back to you.” That's a very difficult space to be in. So, being able to empower people is their greatest version of themselves, it's really powerful and it's really a game changer.

What Joanna is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something she’s really excited about, Joanna shared that this year, she got the opportunity to spend some time really diving into the Enneagram. And if the listeners aren't familiar with the Enneagram, it's a personality assessment type of profile that looks at why people behave the way that they do. So, Enneagram have types, you do an assessment, it gives you a direction on what your type may be. And then you do some more homework and you confirm that that is your type.

And Beatrice Chestnut, wrote a book called The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge. And she’s really had the opportunity to pour into that and what she loves about it is it doesn't matter what part of your life you're looking at, whether it's about your employees, your boss, your co-worker, any other co-workers, your spouse, your kids, family members, customers, it doesn't matter, being able to get insight into what charges people up, what gets them to behave the way that they do.

And then when they're doing well, why you might see some other characteristics where when they're feeling stressed, or things are difficult, you can look for other traits that might come in. It has been incredibly insightful, and she feels like reading Beatrice's book has been a college level course on this. But the amount of insight that it's given into people.

And then the other thing that is maybe a little bit more approachable to people rather than reading a giant textbook is Ian Cron has a podcast called Typology that is just fascinating, where he talks to people with different Enneagram types, and about how they interact with the world. And it's just fascinating and it's been so much fun to learn this year.

Where Can We Find Joanna Online

LinkedIn – Joanna-Hagelberger

Website – www.rhoadsonline.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Joanna Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Joanna shared that she does have, Maya Angelou, which she’s sure many of our guests have quoted, because she's very quotable. This is how she hears it in her head is that, “People will forget what you said and did but people will never forget how you made them feel.” And she feels like when we're dealing, this is all about customer experience. And if we can just remember that how we make our customers feel and how they experience us makes all the difference in the world.

Me: Amazing. Thank you so much, Joanna, for taking time out of your very busy schedule, and hopping on this podcast with us today and sharing all of the great insights that you've learned and just best practices that you've taken on as an individual as a customer service practitioner in your own right, especially in your industry. And just looking at some opportunities that we can strengthen, building out our customer success teams and actually giving customers as you had stated earlier, giving them what they need before they even know that they need it and I thought that was really brilliant. So, thank you so much again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action by Simon Sinek

• Unleashed: The Unapologetic Leader’s Guide to Empowering Everyone Around You by Anne Morriss and Frances Frei

• The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge by Beatrice Chestnut

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Lija Hogan is a principal on the Experience Research Strategy team at UserTesting. When she's not helping UserTesting customers understand the wide variety of topic areas they can cover using the platform, she teaches user research methods classes at the University of Michigan - Ann Arbor.

Questions

• Could you share with our listeners just a little bit about your journey?

• Could you tell our listeners a little bit about what UserTesting is? And what do you do?

• A survey was done that your company pioneered with 2000 adults. And I'd like you to just kind of talk to us a little bit about that survey and some of the key findings that came out of that survey that you believe can help organisations to have a better understanding of why AI is so important.

• Where do you see the technology going for 2024? If you were to pick like a single theme that you believe Chat GPT could help an organisation to tap into delivering a better customer experience, what theme would you say they would need to be focusing on if they were going to use Chat GPT as an integration or even any form of AI that your organisation has been exposed to and work with your clients on that you think is critical for 2024 and beyond?

• Now, could you also share with our listeners, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read, could be a book that you read very recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a very big impact on you.

• Can you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed, or you got off track, the quote can helps to just to get you back on track.

Highlights

Lija’s Journey

Me: Could you share with our listeners just a little bit about your journey? In your own words, how you got to where you are today from where you're coming from?

Lija shared that it was a very roundabout journey. So, she started with the goal of becoming an academic librarian in Slavic and Eastern European studies. So, most people are very amused when they hear that because it's a very, very focused and targeted discipline that requires a lot of education.

And she started that path, actually, at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor with a Master's Degree Programme in what she thought was going to be academic librarianship, but got bitten by the Human Computer Interaction bug really early there. And so, that was many years ago now. But that was really kind of the entry point to being focused on the user experience and the customer experience and just making really substantive connections between people to help them to transact together more effectively and efficiently.

About UserTesting

Me: Now, you are at UserTesting, that's what we read in your bio. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about what UserTesting is? And what do you do?

Lija stated that that's a great question. So, she tends to think of UserTesting as being an enabling technology. So, essentially, it's a platform that enables their customers to connect with their own customers, their users, their employees, their potential users. And what it does is provide recording mechanisms across mobile and desktop, to enable people to have either self-guided, or live conversations with people who are looking for insights.

And they capture videos and audio and screen share, to really get into the perspectives of people around the world. And so, once you've gathered all the information, the platform also provides you with some strategies around sharing that information with your colleagues. And so, you can share videos, you can share quotes, and all sorts of other data to really understand where the gaps are in your experience, and also just to understand what you can do to optimize and de risk the solutions that you're building.

Survey Key Findings to Help Organizations Better Understand the Importance of AI

Me: When you were originally presented to me as a guest for our podcast, a survey was shared with us that your company pioneered with 2000 adults. And I'd like you to just kind of talk to us a little bit about that survey and some of the key findings that came out of that survey that you believe can help organizations to have a better understanding of why AI is so important.

Lija shared that they've actually done a few surveys around AI. And this one, really, some of the significant findings were really around just the fact that people don't understand where AI is manifesting in their lives right now. So, to a certain extent, if you ask them directly, they are answering yes and no without a clear sense for what AI really is.

And she thinks one of the major findings that she had in working through that was just really leaning into the knowledge that AI is manifesting in all our lives in many ways, kind of in the background and behind the scenes. And it's already enabling us to, sometimes make better decisions, have access to more information, enrich the work that we're doing, the conversations that we're having. And that is an important benefit that we're all looking for in artificial intelligence.

Organizations Using Chat GPT to Deliver a Better Customer Experience

Me: So, AI exists in many different forms, because it's a broad topic. But I think the one that people most connect with and use is probably Chat GPT. It's been a year since Chat GPT was launched, I can't believe it's a year already. Where do you see the technology going for 2024?

If you were to pick like a single theme that you believe Chat GPT could help an organization to tap into delivering a better customer experience, what theme would you say they would need to be focusing on if they were going to use Chat GPT as an integration or even any form of AI that your organization has been exposed to and work with your clients on that you think is critical for 2024 and beyond?

Lija stated that that's a great question, because she think it's really hard to say that there's a single thing, but there are probably multiple ones that she sees as being really important. The first is, we're still trying to figure out what's in and out of bounds with regard to how people are using large language models. So, she finds the examples that we're seeing coming out of the legal profession, right, or lawyers are asking a Chat GPT to write briefs and the platform is hallucinating and making up case law, which doesn't exist. And that's a problem.

So, we haven't yet caught up with creating guardrails and it's not necessarily about the technology so much as about how we reach practical consensus around what is allowable, given the constraints of the technology as it currently exists. And actually, not just as it currently exists, but with an eye towards the fact is probably going to become a lot more matured much more quickly. So, she thinks that's one.

The second is really a more recent development that she’s seeing around DIY, Chat GPT and so essentially, people will be able to essentially create their own version of what a large language model can do given a certain use case that they've got in mind. So, she sees the proliferation of a lot of potential technologies use cases strategies that can be leveraged by people who are both technologically seasoned and who are not, who are learning as they go. And she thinks that will be very interesting.

The other main trend that she sees is the enterprise trying to make artificial intelligence safe for practical applications and business operations. And she says that because even just a few months after the launch of 3.5, back in November of last year, she was talking to UserTesting customers, a lot of their innovation teams were essentially doing tests to essentially say, within the context of our own, say, customers experience or customer support teams, how can we create an experience that is robust and safe and private and secure, and gives us confidence that we can triage some.

So, essentially enrich the in person interactions that we're having with people, but also ensure that we're providing good consistent information to those customers that we might be handling using some of those more automated chatbot style experiences that are powered by artificial intelligence.

App, Website or Tool that Lija Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Lija stated that this probably is going to sound self-serving, but actually, it's UserTesting, believe it or not. UserTesting is really important because it's really a very open platform that lets you have both a highly structured as well as an unstructured conversation with the people that you want to work with or learn more from. And she thinks what's so valuable about it is you can test ideas, you can hear what's top of mind for people. And in this world where we've got access to so much data, just hearing stories brings you back down to earth and makes things very tangible and real and we need that now more than ever.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Lija

When asked about books that have had an impact, Lija shared that one that she thinks has been most powerful and it's because she’s an optimist. And she thinks that it really gave her a research based foundation to be able to say, this is why she’s an optimist, is a great book by Chip Heath and Dan Heath, they're actually brothers, they're psychologists, called Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard.

And the concept that she found really fascinating is their focus on not just problem solving, but actually finding those bright spots and going after those, like, where are things going right? And how can we essentially create more experience that look like those bright spots? So, she loves that idea because rather than being focused on all the negatives, it's basically saying how can we make whatever it is that we're doing look like the most positive experiences that we're providing?

So, the other one, it's a really short book, it's probably less than 100 pages. But she loves it so much, it's called the The Mom Test: How to talk to customers & learn if your business is a good idea when everyone is lying to you by Rob Fitzpatrick. And even though it's kind of like a flip book title, what she loves about it is, it's a very approachable set of strategies around having conversations with people when you're trying to figure out what to build and whether or not it's going to work for people.

What Lija is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Lija stated that that is a really great question. Because there's so much, but she’s actually, to the point of the books that they were talking about, the biggest area of focus that she has right now is how to listen better to all the partners that she’s working with. And so, she’s actually spending a lot of time reading books. So, the two that she talked about are two of them, but a number of books that are all about how does she listen better? And sometimes it's about asking better questions, that's what the Mom Test is about.

But sometimes it's actually saying like, “How do I recognize that people are in a special place right now and need to be acknowledged as having been heard?” But then also, how does she change how it is that she shows up in every way, in the writing that she does, in the talking with folks that she does, in the teaching that she does, in all the interactions to help to move things forward. So, she thinks that there are so many great examples that come from working with children, and psychology, and just even business best practice, to really help to listen and to come to consensus, and just make better decisions together. So, that's really given her a lot of joy right now.

Me: Are there any activities that you do with your team that kind of helps to strengthen their listening skills? Is there anything that you would like to share where that is concerned since that's an area that you'll be working on?

Lija shared that she thinks a couple of things. One is she actually thinks it's kind of twofold. One is she’s been spending a lot more time doing one on ones that are very unstructured. And that has given her the platform across the team that she works with, the people that she works with to really say, “What's top of mind for you, and let's talk about it.” And sometimes they start talking about their dogs and cats. But a lot of the time, what that conversation changes into is, “I'm working on this, can I get your perspective on it?” or “I'm having this challenge, can we work through it together.”

And it's a great way to just stay close to what's happening in their world and their part of the organization, but then also take what it is that they're sharing, and see how she can help to pull in other people across the organization, other teams, and talk to other leaders in the organization about what they can do to address some of the themes and trends that she’s seeing. And so, she thinks spending a little bit more time one on one with people has been probably providing a lot of the value that she’s seeing driving those aha moments.

Me: That's brilliant, that kind of reinforces one of the things that Stephen Covey talks about in his book that the most important role of a leader is to grow and develop people. So, the fact that you are actually seeing the results, because of the one on one intervention that you're doing, the time you're investing with each person, and you're seeing it twofold in terms of the benefit with the customers, then it really does prove that that is a strategy that works.

Where Can We Find Lija Online

LinkedIn – Lija Hogan

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Lija Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Lija stated that that's a great question. So actually, this is totally nerdy, but there's a quote, it's at the beginning of one of the chapters of this is where it gets nerdy, Children of Dune by Frank Herbert. And so, the Dune series, there's a movie, a remake of a couple of movies that are out right now.

And the quote, and she’s not going to remember it exactly, but it's really about fear and pain and kind of letting it wash through you. And understanding that it's there, but also understanding that it doesn't define you and it doesn't have to have long lasting negative implications. And so, it's basically, go with the flow, but in a way that leans into acknowledging that sometimes things are really hard and you just have to live through them and understand that it's hard, and figure out how you're going to come out on the other side. Change, but change in a way that acknowledges what's happened to you.

Me: Thank you so much, Lija, just want to thank you again for coming on our podcast today and sharing a little bit about your organisation and user testing, and all the value and brilliance that you're bringing to the customer experience space. As well as some of the research findings that came out of one of the surveys that you had done recently. And just the impact of AI, specifically Chat GPT even though we spoke about that in the episode and other different forms of AI as well. But just taking time out of your busy schedule and coming on here with us and sharing all of the great insights and experiences that you've had. I do believe our listeners will gain a great amount of value from this episode. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Chip Heath and Dan Heath

• The Mom Test: How to talk to customer & learn if your business is a good idea when everyone is lying to you by Rob Fitzpatrick

• Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Jason S. Bradshaw, at 14 years of age started his first business by 21. He had started and successfully exited 3 separate businesses. In every instance, he disrupted the marketplace and won by delivering great customer experiences. He has worked for some of the world's most recognizable brands like Target and Volkswagen, helping them transform the experience they deliver and grow profits.

Today he works with businesses of all sizes to super charge their growth, all still with a focus on the experience they deliver.

Questions

• You were on our show, I think it was back in 2021. Talk to me about what's happened since then, how have things been for you?

• Could you tell us about the book that you had before It’s All about CEX!: The Essential Guide to Customer and Employee Experience, some of the key tenants or themes that came out across that book?

• As it relates to how to start improving the experience for your customers and your employees without needing to invest in additional money, what's one thing that we can start with?

• As it relates to the employee experience versus the external customer experience, which one would you give more attention to?

• You spoke a little bit earlier about two books you're currently working on but they haven't been published as yet. Could you share with us what those books are going to be about?

• Are there any trends as it relates to customer experience that you're seeing currently that you believe will continue to be big things for 2024? And two things that you believe organisations should be looking to focus on for their organisation as it relates to strengthening their customer experience or growing your customer experience? What would those be?

• What's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track, the quote kind of gets you back there. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

What’s Happening with Jason Now!

Me: Now, I know that you were on our show, I think it was back in 2021. Talk to me about what's happened since then, how have things been for you?

Jason shared that things have been busy. He’s finalizing the manuscript on not one but two new books which will come out early in the new year. He’s also been working with some really unique organizations, in various ways as interim Chief Growth Officer as a pure consultant. And of course, continuing to do keynote presentations and his work supporting leaders and boards across the globe, transform the experiences they deliver. It's been a really unique time watching organizations of all shapes and sizes, navigate this post pandemic world, and what they've considered a priority and what they haven't.

About the Book – All about CEX!: The Essential Guide to Customer and Employee Experience – Key Tenets from the Book

Me: So, for those of our listeners that would not have tapped into your previous episode with us. Could you tell us about the book that you had before It’s All about CEX!: The Essential Guide to Customer and Employee Experience, which is one of the top reasons we had brought it on. That book was so amazing, could you tell us about some of the key tenets or themes that came out across that book?

Jason shared that It's All about CEX!: The Essential Guide to Customer and Employee Experience, that was his first walk. And it was a bit of a passion project to start with, because he'd always wanted to write a book. And he finally put the theory into action and wrote a book that was designed to help any individual in an organization understand a couple of key things.

Firstly, the key link between customer and employee experience, you can do some tactical things to improve the customer experience for a short period of time, but if you really want to maintain and differentiate the experience that you deliver to your competitors, then you also need to focus on the employee experience. So, they tackle that in the book.

They also tackle in the book how customer experience is not a soft measure, it's quite often seen as hugging your customers, or something that's rather soft. But actually, in the book, you'll discover that there's some really strong commercial ties and commercial impacts to the work of a true customer experience professional.

And then the third area that they explore in the book is how to actually go about getting started. It always frustrates him, throughout his career where he’s worked in 7 different industries, banking, finance, government, automotive, retail, etc.

It's always frustrated him when he’s turned up to an organisation and the first thing that he hears is, “We haven't been able to do anything because we don't have the money to start.”

And he’s like you can start today, you do not need to throw millions of dollars at a problem to start improving it. And in the book, he gives a really practical step by step guide on how to start improving the experience for your customers and your employees without needing to invest in additional cent or build out a new system. Of course, he talked about some of that stuff as well in the book, but the key message is just get started and here's the way on how to do it.

Improving the Customer and Employee Experience

Me: So, I like the train of thought as it relates to so you don't need millions of dollars to start, but let's say you have a CEO in front of you that says, but Jason, it takes money, it costs money to make money and to train the staff, to get them to be customer oriented, to bring in a consultant, we don't have the resources, we don't have an HR department, we don't have a resource person internally that we can use. What's one thing that we can start with then since you're suggesting we can do this without millions of dollars invested?

Jason shared that the first thing is to define what great looks like and measure yourself against that. So, if a CEO came out today and said, “I think the company is successful if all of our phones are pink and I'm going to measure how many of our phones in the company are pink.” Well, all of a sudden without training anybody, without spending a cent on banners or education programmes, or retreats to get people inspired, the sheer fact that you've stated that it's a key goal, this sheer fact that you're measuring, it means that someone in procurement is going to start buying pink phones. And it's the same with customer experience and employee experience, define what great looks like and define how you're going to measure it, and start doing that even in the most rudimentary ways. But the moment you start talking about it, the moment you start putting focus on it, people will start to move towards it.

Now the problem is, most organizations say we want to be known for delivering great customer service or delivering great customer experiences and they stop there.

And then 6 months down the track they say, “Well, we said we wanted to be famous for this. But nothing's improved.”

Well, you've missed the key point. The key point is you've got to define what great looks like. So, what do you mean when you say, we want to be great at customer experience, what defines or represents great in our terms, and then you have to say, and I'm going to measure it this way and this will be the marker of success. When you combine that clarity, you don't need to instantly spend money on new systems or new profiles or training because people will start gravitating towards it. But if you don't have the clarity, people will just fumble around and they won't deliver any improvements. In fact, in many instances, without clarity, you'll go backwards.

Employee Experience Versus External Customer Experience

Me: Now, you talk a lot about great customer experiences, and defining what that looks like what great looks like, what are your views, since this is an area that you were practising, and you have a lot of experience in it as it relates to the employee experience versus the external customer experience? Do you believe there's a direct correlation between the two? And if you were to let's say for example, focus on one more than the other, which one would you give more attention to?

Jason shared that that's the million dollar question always. If you have to choose one, the area to start out on is the employee experience. And he says that because try to get a happy employee to deliver a bad experience, it's less likely. Try to get a disgruntled employee to deliver a great experience, almost impossible because they're so caught up in their own drama and their own challenges that they're faced every day.

An organization that gets a specialist to come in, they wrote a 300 step process to deliver a great customer experience. But they don't train their team members, and they don't align their systems to the processes. The team member can't deliver that great customer experience that the process was designed to deliver, because everything is getting in the way. But if you say to an employee, I'm going to invest in you, I'm going to make this a great place to work, and you are going to want to see the company succeed, then they will find a way to deliver a better experience for customers.

Because intrinsically, they're being motivated by the great experience that they have. So, if you have to choose, absolutely go with employee experience first. The caveat he'll put on that though, is yes, you can start with employee experience, but you still have to define what great looks like for the customer.

Books Jason is Currently Working On

Me: Now, you spoke a little bit earlier about two books, I think you mentioned that you're currently working on but they haven't been published as yet. Could you share with us what those books are going to be about?

Jason shared that one book is a really practical application book. And what he means by that is you can turn to almost any page in the book, and read just that page, and go and do work that will improve the experience of your customers, of your products, of your employees. It's designed in a way to encourage action, and take away some of the fear of not knowing what to do. So, think of it as a bit of an Experience Management Handbook.

The other book is very similar to his first one in the sense that it's more traditionally, a more traditional business book. And it explores this concept of moving beyond the singular transaction with a customer or with an employee and focuses on what's next. What does a customer really need to see to be fiercely loyal, for example, to your organisation, and again, it will provide some practical guides to how you go about implementing some of the concepts he talked about in the book.

And importantly, it's written in a way that it doesn't matter if you're the team leader of an organization or the CEO, you can see yourself having success and delivering success and growing your business through it.

Me: All right, and when are those books expected to hit the newsstands?

Jason stated that the year’s getting away on us. So, both books will come out early next year, towards the back end of January.

Focus for 2024

Me: Now, we're embarking on a new year, as you just mentioned before, we’re less than less than 60 days. Are there any trends as it relates to customer experience that you're seeing currently that you believe will continue to be big things for 2024? And if you are to, let's say two things that you believe organizations should be looking to focus on for their organization as it relates to strengthening their customer experience or growing your customer experience? What would those be?

Jason shared that he’s going to give three if that's okay. The first one is specifically aimed at the CX professionals in organizations, you have to tie your work to the return on investment, you have to deliver a return on the investment. He’s seeing companies all around the world, disinvest in customer experience programmes because the CX leaders in those organizations have been unsuccessful in creating a really robust link between their work and the commercial results of that work. And it's not surprising that CFOs then start to question it, but this work has a commercial element to it, and don't forget it.

Number two, how can you be the most convenient for your customers?

How can you meet your customers where they are, so that you are integrated into the way that they live versus being a transaction?

How can you go from being a commodity to be a convenient resource that is part of their life?

So, what he means by this is, beyond the sales channels that your customers wanted to be on, offer your customers the communication channels that they want to be on.

If you have customers that are 80 years old, and you have customers that are 20 years old, then yes, you need to have a landline phone number and you also probably need to be able to service them on Tik Tok, to think that you can only do one or the other means that you're going to have disgruntled customers at some spectrum. And of course, he's using some broad strokes here with those ages. But you understand his point.

And the third area is think beyond the purchase, beyond the transaction. If you think of Coca Cola, many people could argue that Coca Cola is a pure transaction product, you go in, you pick up the can of soda at the shop, you pay for it, you walk out, you drink it, and the transaction is over, the experience is done, and you move on.

You have fiercely loyal customers that will only drink Coke, they won't drink Pepsi or any other Cola products, and vice versa for those brands as well. And that's because they create an environment that associates with the consumers lifestyle choices, they have so much money that they spend on marketing to make you believe that drinking Coke is a lifestyle choice, that talks about you.

Now, he mentioned Coke as an example, because quite often the point that he’s about to share with people, they say, “Oh, well, we just have a product like Coke and they just buy it and consume it and, there's nothing post the purchase that we can do.” His argument is that post the purchase transaction, you need to find a way to continue to be in the customers conversation, you need to continue to deliver value.

Now, in the sake of a soda, it's about being seen as a lifestyle choice, a successful lifestyle choice potential. But if you're selling someone a fridge or a washing machine or a course or a camping tent, whatever you're selling, how can you help that customer actually leverage the benefits of that product?

Get the most out of that product, so that in six months’ time when they are at their barbecue talking about stuff with their friends, they can say, “You know, I bought this mobile phone or I bought this item or I did this course. And they genuinely wanted me to enjoy it, they genuinely wanted me to be able to use every feature to get the most out of it, to get the most value out of it.” And so, to sum up point three, deliver value to your customer, even after the purchase has concluded.

App, Website or Tool that Jason Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he cannot live without in his business, Jason stated that that would be his survey tool. Now, for him, it doesn't matter what tool you use, there's lots out there. There's no secret of the fact that he’s a big advocate of Qualtrics Technology. But Qualtrics is an enterprise grade product is delighted for small businesses. There's a whole range of products out there. But the reason he says his survey tool, is because if you don't invite your customers and your employees and the marketplace in general to provide you with feedback, if you don't make it easy for them to give you unsolicited feedback, well, then, are you really listening? Are you really trying to get a pulse of what's working and what's not working in your business?

And so, for him, it's from a pure tactical perspective. For him, it's that tool and he'd encourage everyone to have that tool that lets them get structured and unstructured feedback from customers, employees and the marketplace at general. And so, he always go to that survey tool. But outside of that, at a personal level, it’s not really a tool but he’s a big believer in continued personal learning. And so, he read 30 odd books a year, so, you could imagine that audible sits on his mobile phone and always has a book ready for him to listen to when he’s in the car or sitting on the plane.

What Jason is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that’s he’s really excited about, Jason shared that these two new books that are coming out, they are absolutely one of the passions that he’s working on at the moment. And he’s not just saying that because he wants people to buy it, of course, he does want people to buy it. But they've taken on a life of their own. One book is actually technically two years overdue, but that's okay. And the reason he says it's okay is because he listened to what was happening in the marketplace and to what his customers were experiencing, and said, “No, the book I was writing is not the book people need.”

And so, he hopes and trust that when people get the actual version that the final manuscript that he’s written, that they will see that customer experience isn't an option, focusing on it isn't an option, it is essential to driving your business forward and the book has the tools to help them deliver it. It really is something that's just taken on a life of its own and as he said, it's definitely two years overdue, his publisher, they'd like to have published it quite a while ago.

But it is so important to him that he gets this book right because he wants to really leave a dent in the world and improve the lives of customers, employees, through his work.

And then at a more personal level, he’s working on a couple of new projects that he'll be launching in early December, which are online programmes designed to help businesses, specifically small to midsize businesses break through and have business success.

Where Can We Find Jason Online

Website – www.jasonsbradshaw.com

Twitter – Jason S. Bradshaw

Linkedin – Jason S Bradshaw

Facebook – Jason S. Bradshaw

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jason Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert, Jason stated that he absolutely does. And the quote is, “No matter what, you've got this.” And it’s so simple, but it was something a colleague said to him once and it’s just is a reminder that whatever the challenge is, it doesn't matter, because you've had challenges before and you've got over them, you've succeeded and you can do it again. So, no matter what, you've got this.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing Jason.

So, Jason just wanted to extend our deepest appreciation and gratitude for you coming back on our podcast as a returning guest, that's an awesome milestone, so grateful that you made the time to come back again, especially seeing that you're literally on the other side of the world. But all of the great insights that you shared with us today, reminding us about the things that were in your previous book, CEX, so those of our listeners that would like to tap into that we'll definitely have the link in the show notes of this episode for our awesome resource. And of course, to keep in touch with you for your new books that are coming out to the latter part of January 2024. So, we are extremely grateful that you decided to come and join us again for a quick conversation on mastering customer experience. It was great, thank you, Jason.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• It’s All about CEX!: The Essential Guide to Customer and Employee Experience by Jason S. Bradshaw

• Episode 145: Understanding The Power of Delivering An Amazing Employee and Customer Experience – Released – October 05, 2021

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Maggie Peña is the Chief Experience Officer at Interlace Health (the next generation of FormFast), a 30 year old privately held healthcare IT firm that delivers scalable and cost-effective forms automation and eSignature solutions for healthcare organisations. She brings 22 years of experience in IT to her role and leads one third of Interlaces Health’s employees.

With a fierce focus on customer satisfaction and retention, Maggie created and built Interlace Health's customer support team and its customer implementation strategy, she built out the company's fully Spanish-speaking team for project implementation, and ongoing customer support, and she has managed the company's managed services program to create efficiencies for customers. She believes in a proactive approach to customer service, and it shows with happy and successful customers. Under Maggie's leadership, Interlace Health currently has a 97.4% customer retention rate.

Maggie serves as a co-leader for the HIMSS Clinician Burden Reduction Task Force and was recently named Becker’s 2023 Women in Health IT to Know list.

Questions

• Could you share a little bit about your journey, how you got to where you are today.

• Can you tell our listeners maybe three key things that you've done consistently that you believe has contributed to the success of achieving a 97.4% customer retention rate?

• Can you tell us maybe some of the criteria that you use to select those customers? What type of customer do you look for to ensure that they are the ones that you're joining your counsel?

• Now, could you also share with our listeners what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Now we'd also like for you to share with us maybe one or two books that you've read. It could be a book that you read a very long time ago or even one that you read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

• As a customer, what are maybe three things that are critical for you to actually say, yes, this was a great customer experience.

• Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Are there are some key behaviours or competencies that you look for when you're hiring persons for those roles as customer support?

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track? This quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Maggie’s Journey

Me: So, just wanted to take some time before we jump into the meat of our conversation for you to share with our listeners a little bit about your journey. I know we would have read your bio, but we always like to ask the guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about how you got to where you are today.

Maggie shared that it has been an interesting journey. When she started college, she wanted to be an accountant. But after her first accounting course, she quickly realized that was not her calling. So, the path that really paved her way to where she is today started in the financial industry during her junior year working part time for a local bank and the IT department, processing operations for almost 30 banks throughout the state, working with a Unisys mainframe and green screen terminals for the very first time. And she thinks she just might have dated herself, but that's okay.

So, all kidding aside, it was a great learning experience nonetheless. By then, she had switched majors and was now pursuing a degree in Computer Information Systems. And her time at the bank confirmed and validated her interest in technology and how we can use technology to automate processes to increase efficiencies and customer service as we knew it back then, now that customer experiences tends to be a newer word, back in the day, we were thinking at it as customer service.

She was lucky enough to stay at the bank for almost 7 years until the bank was acquired by an international bank with plans to move their IT operations someplace else. At that point, she knew that it was time to move on and look for something else. So, she joined a local health care system, also working in their IT department supporting the business and financial side of the hospital. After about a year, Interlace Health, formerly FormFast as said came into her life when the hospital purchased a forms automation solution. So, fast forward a couple of years, she had the opportunity to join the NRA Health team and have now been there for almost 13 years.

Key Strategies that Contributed to the Success of Achieving a 97.4% Customer Retention Rate

Me: So, in your bio, it says that you've managed to achieve a 97.4% customer retention rate. Can you tell our listeners maybe three key things that you've done consistently that you believe has contributed to that success?

Maggie shared that at Interlace Health, they believe in putting people first, so that is their mission. They put people over paperwork, and it has reflected on the solutions that they provide their customers and the solution is that they innovate and so on, so forth. But even in the services, she has a belief that software alone doesn't cut it anymore, it just doesn't. Anyone can have a similar product or a similar solution as you, it really comes down to the level of service that you provide your customers and the experience that they encounter throughout the entire journey.

So, first and foremost, they put people first, always there for their customers, they have also built a dedicated team within the services department at Interlace Health, always to be their specialized in what they do, enabled to deliver personalized and attentive support to their customers, they are there with them, they understand their business, they understand their needs, and they're always available.

Again, to address it, regardless of what the need may be, the COVID pandemic was huge, it was terrible, but it was an opportunity for them to be there for their customers and continue providing the service, and not just the service, but continue providing the same level of service to enable them to continue providing the care that they needed to provide even more so during those difficult times.

And then three, they embrace feedback from their customers, the good, the bad, and the Ugly, like the saying. They're always there, they have established a Customer Success Council and it's composed of their most engaged, knowledgeable customers who advises on their products or solutions, they share the best practices. And quite frankly, they give candid feedback. It's not always what they want to hear, but at the end of the day is what they want to hear, because their feedback and their insights have helped make informed decisions as they improve their products and services. And they are pretty much the ones helping them guide their path forward as it comes to their products and services.

Criteria for Selecting Customers to Join Your Customer Success Council

Me: Now, in addition to those three things that has contributed to your customer retention rate being at 97.4%. And I know you mentioned a customer council that you say you use to guide you. Can you tell us maybe some of the criteria that you use to select those customers? What type of customer do you look for to ensure that they are the ones that you're joining your council?

Maggie shared that they offer various solutions. So, they try to get customers that are using different types of solutions, right? Because obviously, there's different needs that each solution addresses. First, they started with their internal team, and they asked them who are your champions? Who are your stellar contacts that are customers who know their products, they know it well, they're using it consistently and that's the criteria. It's also customers that are using their solutions successfully and consistently.

But they try to get customers who weren't using it as much or adopting it as they would like them to, to get involved, to tell them why, what are your challenges? What are your staff or your patients telling you about your solutions or their solutions in this case, that is keeping you from using it to its fullest potential?

So, it was really customers that were mostly engaged and customers that they have communication with, but not to the extent like the fully engaged ones, if that makes sense so that we could get both sides of the house, those that are using it a lot and those that are struggling for various reasons, they wanted to hear from them as well.

App, Website or Tool that Maggie Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Maggie shared that she would say internally, Microsoft Teams. Prior to pandemic, Interlace Health, they've always been a remote company. So, mostly everyone was remote, she’s been remote almost 13 years there. But since pandemic, she thinks Microsoft Teams have kept them very well connected not just internally but with their customers in the hospital setting, that is what they've seen use the most is Microsoft Teams. And then internally to keep track of their customers and their data and their metrics and so on, so forth. Everything that they need to know about their customers, they use Salesforce platform.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Maggie

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Maggie shared that The Speed of Trust: The One Thing that Changes Everything by Stephen Covey. She loves that book and it's been a while, she’s probably going to read it again. And the question got her thinking she needs to reread it again. But it's been a few years since she’s read it. And she loves how it gives clarity into how trusted leaders do things differently, faster and at a lower cost. She’s a true believer that trust drives everything, and how it produces better results. So, that's one.

And then the second one not so much a book, because he's got plenty of books, but John Maxwell, anything, everything John Maxwell, he's amazing. She first heard him 5 years ago at a Global Leadership Summit. The one thing that struck the most from that Summit was when he was talking about looking for ways to add value to people, he called it be an added value liver. Where he was talking about throughout the day, going from knowing to doing, from thinking and looking to making sure it's an action. And at the end of the day, ask yourself, “Did I add value to people today?”

Again, John Maxwell, he is someone who she constantly sees his videos, she’s purchased some training, she even purchases trainings there at work for her direct reports as well to see and to encounter and to read and learn from his teachings. So, those are the two that she can think of.

As a Customer, Three Critical Things to Have a Great Customer Experience

Me: Now I know as your role as a Chief Experience Officer at Interlace Health, you are focused on providing the service to your clients. But I'd like to flip the script a little and put you in the in the hotbox where you are the customer. So, when you think about your own interactions with organizations that you do business with, what are maybe three things that are critical for you to actually say, yes, this was a great customer experience.

Maggie stated that the sense of trust. She talked about trust, the book. So, she would say trust, transparency, and personalization, if she had to put it into just three words. This would be her top three that comes to mind right away.

Me: So, trust, transparency, and personalization.

Maggie stated that personal life experience, she’s huge on that. Just, for example, even when she goes to restaurants, the first thing she looks at when the waiter approaches her is their name badge, because she wants to address them by their name. And she always does, it's just that personal touch and everything that we do, to her, that's very important.

Me: It’s always the little things.

What Maggie is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about, Maggie shared that just with the new CXO role, she’s excited about it because it's going to allow her to work with the entire organization on the customer journey from the initial awareness to implementation support and beyond. So, she’s excited to continue creating a more holistic customer centric culture at Interlace Health, while developing and implementing a comprehensive customer experience strategy. And Yanique did the bragging, she (Maggie) was going to brag a little bit about their customer retention rate. So, that's also exciting for them at Interlace Health at the moment, which is that customer retention rate of 97.4%.

Key Behaviours or Competence for Hiring Customer Support

Me: Could you also share with us with, your customer support team that you had built out, how many persons are on that team?

Maggie shared that they have the team, they're thinking about everyone that's doing support, a good 10 people.

Me: So, you got 10 people on that support team. And so, I just wanted to know if there are some key behaviours or competencies that you look for when you're hiring persons for those roles.

Maggie shared that yes, they need competency, they need people that know what they know, that they're intelligent, and they know what's expected of them. But she looks more on attitude, because you can teach the skills that they need to know in order to support the customers. You'll teach them the product and the solutions and all the intricacies right of what they do. But the attitude, that is not something they can teach. So, she hires for attitude. And so, that's a big one for her.

At Interlace Health, they look for people who are motivated and you have to, in this remote world, you have to be self-motivated. We're no longer in front of other people to help us get through the day. So, you need self-motivated individuals, absolutely intelligent, competent people, but people that have the attitude, who are going to be there for their customers, because not every single call is a good call, and that's life. Some calls aren't always the best calls, but they want people who are going to have the attitude and turn a not so good call into a positive call at the end of the day while we're helping their customers resolve their problems.

Where Can We Find Maggie Online

Website – https://interlacehealth.com/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggiepeña/

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Maggie Uses

When asked about quote that she tends to revert to, Maggie shared that there's one that she has that she’s used personally since a very young age. And that is simple, “If anyone else can do it, so can I.” and like she said, that since she can remember going through school, college, you name it, she’s always had that in her mind if anyone else can do it, so can I.

Then she has a second one too as it relates to her professional setting at work and with her team as they're looking to do something new, whether it's a new process, a new approach to something, anything new that they're talking about doing, she always tells them, “Let's try it, what's the worst that can happen?” So, those are the two quotes that you'll hear her say quite a bit depending on the situation.

Me: Perfect. I love the second one, “Let's do it, what's the worst that can happen?”

Maggie stated, what's the worst that can happen? If it doesn't work, it wasn't working anyway.

Me: There's one that goes, “You miss all of the shots that you never take.” That quote kind of reminds me of that one.

Maggie, I just wanted to express our deepest gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us today. And sharing about your journey as well as what your organization is doing and just how it is that you've been able to really make customer experience shine in your organization and achieve the high level of retention rate, how it is that you focus on ensuring that your customers are getting what they need, and not necessarily what organization wants to give them but you have something in place where you really use the voice of the customer on a regular basis. And you can see it manifest into your customer satisfaction and retention scores. So, thank you again for joining us today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Speed of Trust: The One Thing that Changes Everything by Stephen Covey

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Herb Cogliano leads his own advisory practice leveraging the Scaling of Performance Platform, described in Verne Harnish’s award-winning book, Mastering the Rockefeller Habits-Scaling Up. As a Business Coach, experience CEO Scaling Up Practitioner, and Professor of the Scaling Up Masters Business Course, he has learned first-hand what it takes to overcome many business challenges.

Herb is pursuing his passion of working with leaders of growth companies to achieve more freedom by helping them create industry leading strategies, a culture of accountability, flawless execution, along with a healthy cash flow within their organizations.

Herb was formerly CEO of Sullivan and Cogliano Designers, a 53 year privately held family owned Technology Staffing and Workforce Solutions firm who joined a select group of companies that have appeared on the Inc. 5000 Fastest Growing Company list multiple times. His firm was a Multiyear recipient of the Boston and South Florida Business Journal Best Places to Work Award. This honour recognizes Sullivan and Cogliano achievements for changing the business landscape in creating a positive work environment that attracts and retains employees through a combination of employee satisfaction, working conditions and company culture.

Questions

• We read quite a bit about your journey in your short bio that I just read. But we always like to give the guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about your journey, in your words, how you got to where you are today.

• Now Scaling Up, can you tell our listeners, what Scaling Up is, maybe three or four critical things that if as a business you want to scale up you need to have in place.

• What has been your experience in scaling a business, let's say you were an organisation with let's say, 10 employees, and you've finished in the course of 12 months, you've now grown to an organisation with 100 employees.

• In terms of customer experience, you as a customer, what are three things that you look for to ensure that you're being satisfied as a customer, that your needs are being met?

• Now, Herb, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners if you read any books recently, actually, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, but a book that has had or books that have had a great impact on you? Do you have any of those?

• And so, could you share with us in terms of the recruitment process from a HR perspective, what are some key, would it be a question that you need to ask them that would align you in that phase?

• Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up herb, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you felt derailed or rundown, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Herb’s Journey

Herb shared that he was very fortunate to be raised in a family business where his mother and father incorporated not only raising a family on good values but incorporated what were the challenges in running and growing a business. And as he grew up, and then ultimately went into the business, their business had years of success. And then the industry became more competitive, more commoditized and their growth started to stagnate. As a result of that, they wanted to grow further. They worked hard, they were smart people, but they got stuck.

And they came across the book called Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t (Rockefeller Habits 2.0 Revised Edition) by Verne Harnish. And it's really a playbook for small mid-market companies that don't have a team of MBAs working on their staff, but still need to navigate a very fast changing marketplace. And that book really changed his life about knowing how to grow a company by asking the right questions and working with the right tools to do it.

As a result of that, they scaled, got the accomplishments that you so nicely commented on. And then as a result of that, they exited their companies in 2018. He had an incredible business coach that was so helpful. Him and his father were incredible mentors. And then he knew that he was meant to be a coach and help others using the scaling up methodology to achieve their company's vision and potential.

What is Scaling Up?

Me: Now Scaling Up, can you tell our listeners, what Scaling Up is, maybe three or four critical things that if as a business you want to scale up you need to have in place.

Herb shared that one of the challenges in growing your business is that you don't know what you don't know. So, if you're a $2 Million Dollar company, you don't know what it's like to be a $10 Million Dollar company.

And things change because you're hiring more people, you're onboarding more customers, you're offering more in different products, you may have different or multiple locations and the complexity compounds, and then makes it very hard for the original owner to command and make decisions as your workforce grows from 2 to 20, to 2000 people.

And for many of us, we plateau, because we don't know how to handle the next level complexity, Scaling Up was a framework that helped them navigate it. And it's based upon four primary decisions that you need to get right around people, strategy, execution, and cash. And when you understand how to use those techniques in the four areas, it will then help you navigate the next stage of your growth and that's ultimately what they did.

Experience in Scaling a Business – Keeping a Culture That is Customer Focused

Me: So, a big part of Scaling Up has to do with people and culture and customer experience starts from within. What has been your experience in scaling a business, let's say you were an organization with let's say, 10 employees, and in the course of 12 months, you've now grown to an organization with 100 employees. How do you keep that culture that is still customer focused, customer obsessed, even though you have so many more persons that you're managing? What has your experience been in scaling from that perspective?

Herb stated that hat's a wonderful question. The first part of his experience was “Were they hiring the right type of people that shared their similar values and purpose?”

And in the beginning, they were just looking at resumes, you have experience, you've done customer support or business development, you're a good fit, you're hired. But what they learned was they needed to hire people that not only had skill and experience, but shared their similar values and their purpose, because they work together in the way we behave around those values is what allows them to work well together. And that translates into the customer experience.

The second part of that, that he learned is that they cannot be all things to all customers. And they were trying to be that in the beginning and that hurt their customer experience. So, they finally profiled who was their ideal customer, they were easy to work with, they had high referred ability to others like them, they were profitable, that had to be economically good for the company and they valued them paid their bills on time.

And then they ultimately asked them….

· “What is it about our company?”

· “Why do you value us?”

· “And importantly, How are we distinctive from the competition?”

They call those their brand promises and they hire and train people to deliver exceptional brand promise results. Because if they get the clients brand promise right, and they can deliver it, they have very high client expectation scores.

Me: Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing.

In Terms of Customer Experience, Things to Look Out for to Ensure That You’re Being Satisfied as a Customer

Me: Now, you've worked with quite a few businesses, Herb and you have a wealth of experience. In terms of customer experience, you as a customer, because I'm sure you do business with many different organisations as a customer yourself. What are three things that you look for to ensure that you're being satisfied as a customer, that your needs are being met?

Herb shared that he thinks the first important thing is, “Are they listening to him?” “Do they understand really what his requirements or wants and needs are?”

Secondly, “Are they responsive to him?” If he feels like he needs help, or an answer, are they responsive? And are they available as needed?

And then the third thing is, he understands all companies can make mistakes. To him the mark of a great customer experience is not what they do when things are good, it's how well they react to a mistake or when things don't go good. And those are three things for him that have always been top of mind his entire career.

App, Website or Tool that Herb Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Herb shared that with AI right now there are so many. So, he’d like to say Chat GPT. But there's so many happening every day. But recently, in the last 6 months, he’s really been leaning in to Chat GPT and trying to create prompts in Chat GPT that will make their customer insights and experiences that much that much better.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Herb

When asked about books that he’s read that have had a great impact, Herb shared that Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t (Rockefeller Habits 2.0 Revised Edition) by Verne Harish, the book was given to him early 2003. He thinks he’s read it close to 30 times now. And as recently as this weekend when he was travelling home on a plane, he was making notes to the author, and sent him a note over the weekend about an insight or something that he thinks they can do even better as part of the scaling up network. He is with a group of other like-minded coaches that use the methodology to help entrepreneurs and their senior teams grow. And they are constantly improving the IP that goes into the Scaling Up book. So, he’s read a lot of books, but Scaling Up is one of the only books he ever wanted to reread and master.

In Terms of Recruitment, What are Some Key Questions to Ask That Would Align

Me: You mentioned earlier in our conversation, as it related to Scaling Up that you want to have persons that you hire, that are in alignment with your values, your value system, your vision, and your mission. And so, could you share with us in terms of the recruitment process from a HR perspective, what are some key, would it be a question that you need to ask them that would align you in that phase? Or is it something you're looking for maybe in terms of giving them a scenario and then you're looking for them to give you a particular response to ensure that the person you are selecting it's not just based, as you said on their resume, their experience, their academia, but more so what values they're bringing to the table? What are they going to do if they're faced with a particular scenario? And is that going to be in alignment with the core value of the organization?

Herb shared that they begin in the recruitment phase. So, imagine that you need to hire an individual, his four core values for his coaching practice are wisdom, humility, integrity, and grit. So, if he was going to look for someone to join his coaching practice, his job recruitment ads would have messaging around, “Do you value wisdom, learning and sharing?” “Do you have the humility to let others shine?” “Do you have the integrity to always do the right thing?” “And do you have the grit to deal with adversity and be resilient?” If that sounds like you, they'd like to talk.

The second part of that goes into the interview, when they actually are asking questions all around. Do you have those core values? Can you tell me about a time where somebody challenged your integrity? And how did you deal with it? What would you do different now? What were the lessons learned?

The third part of it is in the onboarding. So, every new hire orientation should have members or members of leadership or owners coming in, talking to the new employees about the values, the purpose and the mission of the organization.

So, they're kind of inoculated in the beginning that these things are important and top of mind as you work in the company. They then do newsletters that are also echoing this messaging, it's part of their performance review where part of your evaluation is how well you're living in aligning to the values.

They do recognition programmes throughout the year where you're recognized for living certain values and purpose. And then their leadership is trained that when they're working with you day in and day out, to reference recognition and constructive feedback in relation to the core value and purpose embodiment.

Me: Those are pretty good. Excellent, excellent, excellent. And I like how you gave the examples and the question that you asked as it relates to the recruitment process, even in the advertising and marketing to ensure that you're attracting the right people. So, thank you so much for sharing those strategies on how to achieve that.

Herb shared one other point, this is so powerful for him, you talked about going from 10 people to like a couple of 100 people. When they first were looking at their workforce in one of their small groups, they had about 25 employees. And somebody had him doing “A” player assessment, what that simply means is out of 25 people, how many of them did they rate as “A” players, people that embodied their values, and people that were hitting the productivity requirements for their job? He has to tell you…..his first score was only a 38% out of 100.

Now, can you imagine early on in his scaling up journey, the drama a company would have with only 38% being A players? Can you imagine what the customer experience would have been dealing with that team? Here was the eye opener for him. What if he scaled to 200 employees, but didn't change the 38% A player result? Imagine scaling drama 25 people at 38% A player. Now 200 people at only 38% A player? It would be awful.

Me: Yep, that would definitely shoot your customer experience into the garbage.

Herb stated that one of the big epiphanies that he had, and what he loves to do with his clients is they need to get your people right as a foundational part, before you just scale.

Let's be smart, because when you scale with a higher A player rating, your drama is so much lower, your clients are so much happier, your employee retention is so much higher, and your employee tenure is so much longer. It was the most incredible epiphany they ever had, and he will never grow a company another way.

What Herb is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Herb shared that he’s really leaning into AI. He’s looking at all the tools and techniques in their practice and they're trying to really make it easier for their clients to use the tools leveraging AI elements within it.

The second part is he just came back, his son who's 30 years old, completed his first Ironman Triathlon last weekend, a 140-mile race. And he’s (Herb) just committed to his son that he is going to train him, his first Ironman, so you asked what's going on in his head right now, that's what's going on in his head.

Where Can We Find Herb Online

Website – www.aspiregrowthadvisors.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Herb Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Herb shared that he’s found many business owners that when they get frustrated and burnt out, but think about it, a lot of entrepreneurs start their company and it's a love story. They've always wanted to be their own boss, they have a certain gift or skill, and they want to bring that to the world and make a difference. But next thing you know, tough employees happen, bad clients happen, payroll, money, frustration happens. And what turned into a dream becomes a nightmare for the owner and they feel like the business is running them.

His quote to you is, “You deserve a business where you're running the business, the business is not running you.” And what he’s learned in his journey with Scaling Up is that you can have that dream, it's not easy. But they can make it easier for you to build a business to make more money, to give you more freedom, and less drama. And that is the wish that I have for all of your listeners that they find that for them in their company.

Me: Brilliant, quote. Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing Herb. We just want to extend our deepest level of gratitude and appreciation to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us today. And sharing all of these great insights and learnings that you have experienced in your journey as it relates to scaling up your business, ensuring they are the right people, doing the right thing, aligned in the right values so that you can achieve the highest level of customer satisfaction and even life satisfaction and to ensure that you're doing something that's fulfilling to your soul. So, thank you so much, we really, really appreciate it.

Herb shared that as a gift for all the listeners, if they go to the website, they have a Scaling Up Business Readiness Assessment. If you want to know where your company is today for their readiness to scale up, that complimentary assessment will give you some insights. And if you're looking to know where you are as a high impact leader, they have a High Impact Leader Assessment that will give you a kind of current state of where you are, and then some insights of where you could potentially go and he just thank you very much for having him today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t (Rockefeller Habits 2.0 Revised Edition) by Verne Harnish

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Peter C. Yesawich is Chairman of Hospitable Healthcare Partners, LLC - a marketing consultancy serving hospitality and the healthcare industry clients - and Vice Chairman Emeritus of MMGY Global, one of the country's leading marketing communications companies renowned for its strategic thinking, breakthrough creativity, and innovation in marketing practice.

Yesawich has contributed to the development of marketing programs for some of the industry's most popular brands, destinations and organizations including: Fairmont Hotel & Resorts, Hilton International, Disney Parks & Resorts, Universal Studios, Atlantis, The Broadmoor, Sandals Resorts, Wynn Las Vegas, Marriott Vacation Club International, the Mexico Tourism Board, and the U.S. Olympic Committee, to name a few.

He is co-author of Marketing Leadership in Hospitality and Tourism, and the new book, Hospitable Healthcare: Just What the Patient Ordered!

Questions

• Could you share a little bit about your journey?

• Have you seen any common themes as it relates to customer service delivery on the part of the service provider that you think is universal to both areas?

• Now, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

• What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to just get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Impact on Online Sources

But on that point, one of the things that they looked at in writing the book and their survey of 1200 adults is how they use online sources to help them think about healthcare and whether it's evaluating healthcare providers, or self-diagnosis, we all joke about Dr. Google, something happens and we quickly want to do a web search, whether it's Google or WebMD, or any of a number of site specific providers, specific sites, like Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic and so forth, to get that kind of information.

But that would be his answer. By the way, that is extremely helpful, but also generally very difficult for people to interpret. So, it's essential, they should absolutely do their homework, but they should also consult with a medical professional to make sure they've interpreted it correctly. So, it's a combination of those two, but that wouldn't be his answer, really, it's Google would be the certainly the go to source.

Me: It's amazing you said that, we take it for granted when you think about how we used to do research prior to Google, Encyclopaedia Britannica, go to the library, it takes you so long to kind of get information. And I always tell my daughter, and even my mom, I tell her, there's nothing that you can type into Google that I'm sure someone else in the world has not asked that same exact question. No matter how stupid you think it is, somebody in the world has asked the question and there is an answer there for you, so it really is knowledge base.

Peter shared that what's interesting about that though is, in hospitality, online people go online to look at reviews. So, you look at reviews of restaurants, or hotels or destinations or what it may be. In their companies that have really built incredible databases like TripAdvisor and Expedia and so forth. And then you think about, “Well, why doesn't that exist in healthcare?”

So, if you wanted to learn a little bit more about, let's say, a particular hospital, where you might be thinking about scheduling some kind of elective procedure, or a specific clinician, a doctor or a practice, one of the things you discover very quickly is it's very difficult to get that kind of information online about healthcare providers, and people ask why and he'll share with the listeners that kind of interesting that came out of their research.

There are two reasons for that. Number one, most of these healthcare rating sites will not publish any ratings on providers unless they have a minimum number of what they consider to be objective ratings, typically, that's 3. So, for example, if you go into health grades, or any of the doctor sites, you'll notice a lot of the physicians don't have any rating or if they do have a rating, it might be one or two ratings.

And obviously, people are generally very, very suspect about that if they don't have a broader base of patient reviews. Now, the question is, why is that? And here's the interesting part of the answer. We discovered that most of us are very reluctant to criticize medical professionals. For example, the example you just gave about the paediatrician. Now, you're quick to maybe share that story with other friends but his suspicion is you probably didn't go online and write a review. Now, maybe you did.

Me: I did not. But I don't think it's because I was reluctant to share it online, I think at the time, that would have been like 2006, I don't think it was that popular at the time.

Peter stated that for most people today, they're reluctant to do that online publicly. And we think that there's a really good psychological reason for that and that is that we are all raised correctly, by the way, to respect the amount of training and the motivation of medical professionals that even if we find that their style to be a little abrupt, and so forth, the fact of the matter is, we absolutely respect their expertise.

And the other aspect of that is, we don't have the same vocabulary. So, it's very difficult for us to interpret many times their comments, or their assessment of our medical problem. So, it's just not possible for us to rate them because we don't know, we don't know if it's good or bad advice. And as a result of that, what happens, these ratings are few and far between, anyway, to your point is we like to say, if you have an anniversary dinner in a restaurant, where the restaurant blew it, well, you may go home that night and the internet will be blazing in terms of your negative response.

But if you had a bad experience at your physician's office, you just kind of shrug your shoulders and kind of move on. But more and more to your point, people are exercising choice and say, “I'm not going back to that office, or I'm not going back to that hospital, the experience was really bad.” And generally, most insurance programs provide some options for you to use other providers.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Peter

When asked about books that have an impact, Peter stated that he'll give you just one. And it's a book that he thinks resides in the same space as their book, their most recent book. It's called Compassionomics: The Revolutionary Scientific Evidence That Caring Makes a Difference by Stephen Trzeciak and was authored by two medical doctors from the University of Pittsburgh. And it's fascinating examination of an idea similar to theirs about hospitality and healthcare. And the book, it really addresses the question, critical question that most people in healthcare ask and they say, well, we believe, we get the idea that compassion is important for patients as part of the customer experience and so forth. But it doesn't make financial sense. So, that's the point of view.

He’ll give the best example. Most physicians today are under tremendous time pressure to see as many patients as quickly as possible, and that's a recurring theme of dissatisfaction for people in healthcare, where they say, “Well, I only saw the doctor for 10 minutes, and half the time he or she was looking at a computer screen. They didn’t look at me.”

Well, the problem is that many of these practices, literally, they have performance criteria that says, you should not spend more than 15 or 20 minutes with a patient and you need to move on because the volume needs to be at, anyway.

So, the whole idea of being compassionate, and a big part of that is just listening, and that is listening until the patient has expressed everything he or she would like to express and also making sure they understand what the clinician has concluded and is recommending, that takes time.

And it's a big issue of this demonstrating compassion. And he lives through that because as he says, 10 years in cancer care business. And you talk about the importance of compassion in medical facilities, there's nothing more challenging and potentially difficult than fighting cancer, it's the worst disease that anyone can be diagnosed with. And it happens to be the most expensive disease.

And therefore, compassion is essential in terms of getting people through the process. But anyway, that's a long answer to a great question. But he would recommend that to anybody who is interested in the healthcare customer experience because, as it turns out, they make a case, very compelling case, this is compassion, the delivery of compassion, the demonstration of that makes great financial sense for a whole bunch of reasons. And they build the case for that.

Me: I can just imagine, because as I said to you at the beginning, the average person that goes to their doctor or hospital or clinic, they're in pain. So, when I do trainings for those persons in that type of industry, I genuinely say to them that listen, if you don't genuinely care about other human beings, and you're not genuinely there to help them, you're just in the profession for the financial gain, this is just not the area for you to be in because as you mentioned, compassion is one of those key skills that you need and sadly, a lot of patients and their relatives, they don't get that. Even COVID saw ot, I heard so many cases where I guess they got immune to the fact that people were dying from COVID, you are just another dead person to them. And that person was somebody's dad, was somebody's mom, was somebody's sister, was somebody's child.

Is Healthcare a Need or a Want Service?

Peter agreed and shared that it's funny, because they talk to medical professionals about their book. Some of them say, well, all this is wonderful. But healthcare is what they call a need service. And hospitality is a want service, and they stopped them and say, wait a minute, think about what you just said.

The point they make is that, yes, many people pursue healthcare out of need, they're ill, they had an accident, whatever it might be. And they come to that experience with all kinds of anxiety, and all of a sudden, they have issues related to difficulty making an appointment, checking in, the time that it takes, understanding the cost of the service, all the things he just talked about.

And the point he makes is that, yes, it is a need service for many patients who seek emergency care. But that amplifies the importance of the hospitality elements in delivering the care, because the hospitality elements help manage down some of that anxiety.

We've all sat in an emergency room way too long and the anxiety is building and something as simple and a lot of hospitals now do this, which published the wait times in the emergency rooms, they say, okay, your wait time is 32 minutes, well, at least you know that you're going to be there for half an hour, if nobody told you it was 32 minutes, you'd be sitting there 20-25 and wondering what's going on anyway, you get the idea. So, even though it is a need service, and we acknowledge that, we think that it actually underscores the importance of hospitable healthcare.

What Peter is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s excited about, Peter shared that it is this book, took them 2 years to write this. And he said, they did a major piece of national research. And the reaction they've gotten to this book has been terrific from not just consumers because they know consumers, they say “Well, wouldn't you like a more hospitable experience?” Everybody says, absolutely. But from healthcare practitioners, they say, “Okay, that sounds really good. Tell me how.”

So, in this book, what they've done is in their model, the fact that PAEER model for each chapter, they've identified very specific action items like how to prepare, how to anticipate, how to engage for healthcare providers, it's almost like a checklist. And it's amazing how healthcare providers react. He’ll give one example and it happens to be addressing that number one deficit, which is not knowing the cost of the healthcare service before it's provided.

He was sharing this with a CEO of a large healthcare system in New York couple of weeks ago. And he said, “Okay, smart guy, well tell me how we're supposed to address that.” So, we'll try this on for size. So, when he books, he’s talking about non-emergency procedures. Now, emergency procedures are unique, but non-emergency and by the way, that represents a very substantial percentage of the procedures that any hospital system would do. So, you have to schedule the surgery, whatever it might be.

So, he said, “When I confirm my appointment for that particular service or procedure, I don't know the cost, but why don't you give me a pro forma estimate of the cost of that when you confirm my appointment?” It's the same that happens in most industry. So, next week, if you take your car to a car repair service or for service, they're going to give you an estimate, you have to approve that before they do the work, you want to book a hotel room or a vacation, you're going to know the cost of that before you take the trip.

So, why wouldn't the healthcare provider send me an estimate of the expected cost of annual physical, any surgical procedure, whatever it might be. And the reason he says that is the hospital, and the healthcare provider knows the cost of the service before they confirm your appointment. Now, most patients don't know that. But they know the cost because all of those services are already contracted with these insurance companies.

So, they have a very specific dollar amount, they're going to get reimbursed for that, even though that dollar amount as you know is substantially less than what you see in the bill. But his point is that they could give you a pro forma estimate that says, “Okay, this is likely to be between $600 and $800.” And they disclaim that by saying, “We may discover when we do your examination that more tests are required, and therefore, it's going to be a little more expensive.” And they disclose that at the time the appointment is confirmed.

But the point is that that gives people, patients then a general sense of what the cost might be, allows them to make an informed decision about whether or not they want to certain to pursue treatment there or someplace else. He’s sure you (Yanique) read all the stories about people that say, “Well, I looked at the cost of an MRI at hospital A, and it was $2500. And I look at an MRI at hospital B and it was $3800. How could it be different? It’s the same procedure?”

Well, the idea is that their margins are different, their reimbursement rates are different with insurance companies. They know that, you don't know that, but you could actually as a provider, begin to minimize a lot of that anxiety by simply giving a pro forma estimate.

So, the CEO said, “You know what, that's kind of interesting idea.” He said, you have all that information, but you just don't provide it. So, they're going to begin to explore the possibility of doing that.

By the way, just this week, he saw Amazon health. Amazon is now getting into the primary care business and one of the things, they just released a press from two days ago, press release on this, Amazon health will give you the cost of the service at the time you book the appointment. And he thought to himself, “Wow, somebody's paying attention here.”

Me: Yeah, they saw the need, they did their work. They did their research.

Peter agreed and stated there's an example of what he’s talking about.

Where Can We Find Peter Online

Website: www.hospitablehealthcare.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Peter Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Peter shared that he’s not sure it's a quote, but it's more of a mantra and that is, “Tomorrow will be a better day.” And that is if you get consumed by negativity, by certainly today, all the things going on in the world. It's easy to get very dark, very quickly. But you have to awaken with the belief that things will get better and generally they do. And you as an individual will have to be a major catalyst to that, you have to pursue it and you have to be relentless. But yeah, if you ever lose hope in that then you're probably headed to a very dark place. But that would be tomorrow's always going to be a better day.

Me: Perfect. Thank you so much for sharing. Now, Peter, we want to just extend our heartfelt gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule to share about your book, all the research that you did, giving us some real-life, practical examples that our listeners can take back. I think this book that you did is of great value, as you mentioned, not just to patients, but also to persons who are in the healthcare industry, who are service providers, there's clearly a lot of opportunities from a hospitable perspective that healthcare providers could be doing that they're not doing. And I really hope that this book gets to more people, and that they will look on it, not like the person mentioned, it's a need and not a want, but look on it that at the end of the day, in everything we're doing, there's always an opportunity to create that experience that people would want to come back to you, even if it's a need, even if you don't necessarily want to go back and see your GP or your ophthalmologist or your dermatologist, you want to be cured. But at the end of the day, when you walked away from that experience, you will be motivated to want to go back if something should happen to you and not feel demotivated not to go back, because the experience was not good. So, I do think that what you shared with us here today will be of great value, encourage all of the work that you're doing and thank you, thank you so much again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Hospitable Healthcare: Just What the Patient Ordered! By Peter Yesawich Ph. D and Stowe Shoemaker Ph.D

• Compassionomics: The Revolutionary Scientific Evidence That Caaring Makes a Difference by Stephen Trzeciak

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Peter C. Yesawich is Chairman of Hospitable Healthcare Partners, LLC - a marketing consultancy serving hospitality and the healthcare industry clients - and Vice Chairman Emeritus of MMGY Global, one of the country's leading marketing communications companies renowned for its strategic thinking, breakthrough creativity, and innovation in marketing practice.

Yesawich has contributed to the development of marketing programs for some of the industry's most popular brands, destinations and organizations including: Fairmont Hotel & Resorts, Hilton International, Disney Parks & Resorts, Universal Studios, Atlantis, The Broadmoor, Sandals Resorts, Wynn Las Vegas, Marriott Vacation Club International, the Mexico Tourism Board, and the U.S. Olympic Committee, to name a few.

He is co-author of Marketing Leadership in Hospitality and Tourism, and the new book, Hospitable Healthcare: Just What the Patient Ordered!

Questions

• Could you share a little bit about your journey?

• Have you seen any common themes as it relates to customer service delivery on the part of the service provider that you think is universal to both areas?

• Now, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it had a great impact on you.

• What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, the quote kind of helps to just get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Peter’s Journey

Me: Could you share a little bit about your journey? I know in your bio, it gives us a summary of the clients that you've worked with, some of the impact that you've had. But we always like to hear in the own words of our guests, their words of how their journey has been and how they got to where they are today.

Peter shared that most of his career has been spent in the hospitality field, as you mentioned in your introduction there. Actually, when he finished school, he has a PhD in Psychology, and he never practised clinically, but he always wanted to use the education to understand the influence of marketing communication. So, that's what he did for a period of roughly 35 years. And then, for a 10-year period, he took a sabbatical and he went into the healthcare business. And he did that for a bunch of reasons. But he joined a national oncology company by the name of Cancer Treatment Centres of America. They had 5 destination hospitals, 10 clinics served about 15,000 patients annually.

So, he had a unique perspective in hospitality, having worked with a number of the brands you mentioned, and in healthcare, and when I got to healthcare, it was very obvious to him that the health care experience for patients could be improved significantly if healthcare providers simply adopted many of the principles that have essentially led to the success of hospitality brands. So, that's the short version.

And then a couple of years ago, he was in Las Vegas making a speech and he was in the greenroom. And he bumped into a gentleman by the name Stowe Shoemaker and he's a gentleman he’s known for probably 20-25 plus years. He's a gentleman who has a very distinguished career in academia.

And he at the time, was the Dean of the Hospitality Management Programme at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. And prior to that, he was in Houston at the University of Houston, where he also had a joint appointment with the MD Anderson Cancer Centre. So, they're trading notes and he said, “So, it's amazing, your background is very similar to mine, because we both have experience in hospitality and healthcare. And we had the same kind of perspective, and that is that the healthcare experience could really be improved.” And that's what ultimately lead to them writing this book.

Universal Themes Across Hospitality and Healthcare

Me: Awesome. So, hospitality and healthcare, those are two very important industries. Hospitality is more about fun and healthcare, of course, is about just living a healthy lifestyle, but seeing that you have exposure and experience in both industries, would you say there are some common themes in terms of customer service expectations that customers would have, because at the end of the day, if you go into a resort or a hotel you are going on vacation, 9 out of 10 times, people travel for business as well. But pretty much you're not in pain, whereas, 9 out of 10 times, if you're going to healthcare, you go for your check-ups, but most people a lot of times are already in pain why they're visiting their doctor, whether it be a clinic or hospital. So, have you seen any common themes as it relates to customer service delivery on the part of the service provider that you think is universal to both areas?

Peter stated that it’s a great question. And the answer is there are many, in fact. But let him begin by asking the question of your listeners, which is the way he really like to start the conversation, and that is he asked, “Can you think of a healthcare experience that you've had that was either unsatisfactory or gone wrong?”

And the answer for everyone is absolutely, yes. Everybody has a story about a healthcare experience that went wrong. And then he stopped them. And he says, well think about the primary reason for that. And it's interesting to note that very rarely, is the reason is the clinical outcome the reason. Clinical outcome generally is very satisfactory for people in healthcare. But the reason primarily is the way the healthcare service was delivered.

So, to Yanique’s question, they actually began writing this book by doing a survey of 1200 adults in the US. And what they did is they looked at 22 common points of customer engagement, that are unique to both healthcare and hospitality, for example, the very front end, how easy or difficult is to get an appointment? We all hear stories about someone who wants to make an appointment with a certain type of medical specialist, and they're disappointed because it takes weeks or months to do that, how does that experience compare with making a reservation, for example.

And then all the way through whether or not you know the cost of the service before it's provided, in the hospitality industry, you absolutely do, because when you book, at that point, typically the cost of the service is confirmed, unfortunately, in the healthcare business, after you confirm an appointment, it's very rare that you know the cost of the service before you receive it. And he’s sure you've (Yanique) got a story, everybody has a story about a surprise medical bill and how disappointing and unnerving that is. All the way through whether or not the provider asks you for feedback on the experience.

Last night, for example, he had dinner with some friends, and they booked the reservation on Open Table. And true to form, this morning, 8 o'clock, he gets an email from Open Table says, “How was your experience?” He will also tell you, a couple of weeks ago, he had an executive physical at a very well-known healthcare provider, and he has yet to hear from them to ask him about his experience as a patient.

So, point is that there are 22 of these points of customer engagement that they measured in the survey with 1200 adults. And basically, what they did is they asked them to rate their experience in 5 categories to compare their reaction or their experience on the 22 points of service engagement for hospitals - number 1, for walking clinics - number 2, for doctors’ offices - number 3, for lodging - number 4, that would be Hotels and Resorts. And the 5th was in dining and restaurants.

So, the way to think about this is they have kind of a 5 by 22 matrix. And in each cell, they have 1200 observations, so they have a really, really robust kind of basis analysis, in the punch line and all of that to your question about the common points of customer engagement.

What they then calculated is what they call the hospitality deficit and that is how much people felt the experience in healthcare was a deficit in terms of the service experience, versus hospitality. And out of that came 5 specific themes. He’s happy to talk you through those. But that's a lot to kind of process. But the answer was, yeah, there are 22 common points of customer engagement that they identified, and they examined.

Me: Perfect. So, 22, that's a lot, you want to kind of just maybe run through, just maybe this list the 22 for us, and then maybe you could talk about some of the ones that are near and dear to your heart?

Peter shared that what they did is they actually collapsed these into 5 themes. So, he’ll kind of just talk to those specifically. And then they can drill down on any of them that would be of interest.

So, the number one source of this deficit in service delivery between healthcare and hospitality is what he mentioned a moment ago, and that is for individuals not knowing or understanding the cost of the service before they receive it. And we've all had that experience in healthcare, whether if the bill is easy to understand or difficult to understand, whether or not if you know how much to pay for the service before you receive it. And then whether or not the cost of the service is consistent with your expectation. So, all of those kind of roll up into that first trend. And that is the primary source of dissatisfaction patients have with the healthcare experience. And you can probably think of an example for you personally, he has them, he’s sure the listeners have them.

The second theme that came out of this really interesting was the fact that patients and healthcare don't feel like their business, so to speak, is appreciated by the providers. Now in hospitality, you get many thank yous, you get a thank you when you check in, and thank you when you checkout, you get a thank you when the waiter takes the order, you get a thank you when the bills presented.

And if you think about the expressions of appreciation patients have in healthcare, that's very rare. It's almost like, in many respects, for some providers, you the patient should be thanking the provider for the provider delivering the service. But that's the second kind of source of this deficit.

The third is the whole arrival experience and reception. And we all have kind of stories about the clipboard, the dreaded clipboard, you show up at the doctor's office, and they hand you the clipboard and say, “Please fill this out.”

And the irony is, you may have filled out the same clipboard a couple of weeks prior, either at the same physician's office, or a similar, and maybe a referral that has been made. But how about the whole environment, a lot of doctors’ offices and hospitals have worked hard on that in recent years, but it's still nothing like walking into a three or four star hotel or a restaurant where they've really given a lot of thought to things like colours, and textures, and aromas, and all the things that really do impact our sense of arrival and the way we're greeted, when we arrive too.

The fourth theme is what they call service logistics. And that's this ease or difficulty of making an appointment or getting a reservation. And then the other aspect of that is the check in process, is it easy. He suspects many of the listeners are members of frequency programs, like whether it's with hotels, or airlines or restaurants. And they've worked very hard to create these customer profiles, right, they understand your preferences, they know that maybe you like a certain type of pillow in a hotel, or a certain type of bedding, or a seat on an aeroplane, it's interesting in the healthcare business, that kind of information although it's readily available, is very rarely tracked and used.

So, what happens is the check in process becomes very cumbersome, go back to the idea of the dreaded clipboard, but it's providing the same information over and over again. Or the other thing in hospitality is that's been very effective in terms of recognising customers, is giving them a little special attention.

So, for example, if you're a member of a loyalty program for a hotel company, you might check in at a different location at the front desk, so they might have a little plaque there that says, “Reserved for our loyalty members” or whatever.

In the airline business, people scrambled to get loyalty status, so they can get an overhead bin when they get on the plane, or that maybe they have a chance to pick a seat ahead of time.

So, the whole idea is that there's some special recognition, doesn't happen in healthcare, right? You stand in the same line with everybody else, whether or not you are a repeat patient or first-time patient. And we can talk about that, because there are ways to solve that in healthcare, but they don't exist today.

And then the last theme here is they call service recovery. You know for example if you're off in a restaurant, and the entree comes in and you're unhappy and you mentioned that to the waiter or waitress, what happens is, they're very quick to remove it and replace it and they might even give you a complimentary dessert. They'd say the sorry that happened. Or if you're really unhappy, they just take it off your bill. Whatever happens when people contest a charge from a healthcare provider, have you ever tried to do that? You know what happens? It goes nowhere. And so, many times you're arguing with the insurance company, or you might even be arguing with the provider. But the point is that service recovery is very poor in healthcare, and it's very good in hospitality.

So, those are five themes, it's knowing the cost of the service, being appreciated as a customer, the whole arrival experience, the service logistics that is the check in process, and so forth. And then finally, service recovery. So, the 22, they kind of collapse into those 5.

Me: So, to be really honest, of all the themes that you mentioned just know, the one that you mentioned about loyalty from a healthcare perspective, that was like a BFO for me, a blinding flash of the obvious, because you're so right, like most industries have some form of reward that you get for being loyal to them. I don't have one doctor that I go to my ophthalmologist, my gynaecologist, my GP, none of them and I've been going to them for years. My dermatologist, I’ve been going to her from I was 16. Wouldn't they benefit from making their customers, their patients feel like they valid them? And because the reality is we can switch, I've switched doctors in the years I've been going for various reasons.

I remember when I just had my daughter, the paediatrician was extremely cold in some feedback he had given me when she was 6 months old, she had this really high temperature, I was a first time mom, I was 24 and I called the office to schedule an appointment, because I was doing all the things at home to get the fever down, and it wasn't working. And their response was, I should just bring her in later in the day. And when I spoke to him, finally, he said he was playing golf and that statement in itself made me switch. I've told that story to so many people, she's 18, she turned 18, two weeks ago, and that was when she was six months old. And I've never forgotten it. And I would never recommend anybody to go to him based on that experience.

Peter stated that Yanique hit the nail on the head with that, one of the things that they examined in the book is they actually created a service model for healthcare practitioners, that has five elements in it, it's called the PAEER Model, that's an abbreviation. The P is to Prepare the care for the patients. And that's the whole idea of learning more about them before they arrived. The next is A, which is to Anticipate, which gets into this whole issue of the anxiety that people feel when they're pursuing healthcare services, particularly if it's in kind of an emergency situation, we can come back to that in a second. The first E is the Engagement Process that's this check in or the arrival and how easy or difficult it is. The second E is Evaluation, that's asking for feedback. And the one the last is R, which is what you just mentioned, which is Reward. So, let's just take a second and explore that. And let him digress for a second because this is a little bit of humour. But he thinks it makes the point.

They open the book with a story about a fictitious patient. It's a guy who is in his mid 40s. And he lives in Ohio, and he's pretty concerned about his health, he goes for an annual physical, and his PCP says, “Okay, time for your first colonoscopy.” So, they chronicle this guy's experience, trying to get a hold of the gastroenterologist making an appointment, how difficult that was, the fact that he shows up, they don't really recognize him, have no background information. So, he's got to take a half an hour with the clipboard to fill all that out. The fact that he doesn't know the physician and the first time he sees the gastroenterologist is when he's lying on the gurney, and they roll them in. He has the colonoscopy, and he wakes up and says, “How did you do?” And they said, “Well, we can't tell you. But maybe a couple of days, we'll have some results.” So, the guy worries all the way home, finally gets some good news.

But a couple of days later, he gets a bill in the mail from the anaesthesiologist that he wasn't expecting, it was another $700.00. Nobody told him about that. And a week later, he gets another bill, which is the equivalent of a one month's mortgage payment that nobody told him about. So, the guy goes wow. Well, six weeks later, he and his wife decided to go to Vegas for a weekend. So, they go online, and they look at the options, they find a spectacular hotel on the Strip, the guy’s a member of the hotel's loyalty program. So, when they show up, he goes to the Front Desk, they say, “Mr. Smith, we're delighted to let you know we've upgraded you to a suite.” And the guy goes, “Wow, that's terrific.” So, they go to the suite, they have a wonderful time dining and shows and so forth. He's ready to check out.

So, he looks at the app on his phone, it's exactly what he thought it was going to cost. And when he gets to the front to the exit, the doorman says, “Mr. Smith, we hope you had a wonderful time and we can't wait to see you again.” By the way, nobody said that to him when he left the gastro’s office. And so, two weeks later gets his visa bill and it's exactly what he thought it was going to be. And he notices he gets 3000 reward points for his trip to Vegas.

And so, they asked the question, “Why didn't he get reward points for his colonoscopy?” Now, when he says that most people go, “What? what are you kidding?” “No, we're not kidding.” It's to your point, why do healthcare providers not have loyalty programs?

And you think that that would make more sense in healthcare because the older we get the more healthcare we use? So, you'd think well, there'll be reasons to encourage people to come back. Well and the answer to that is, most people in healthcare have never thought about it, they didn't think it was appropriate. Now, there are certain legal restrictions if you have like Medicare, and Medicaid, where you can't have any kind of financial inducement for people to come for care.

But two thirds of the people in this country with a healthcare insurance, it's a commercial insurance, and that is absolutely appropriate. So anyway, they think that's a horizon that you're going to see a lot more of in healthcare, that more and more healthcare providers are going to start introducing these loyalty programs. Now, it doesn't have to be any kind of financial incentive, it could be maybe it's free cancer screenings, maybe it's free educational programs on nutritional foods, or maybe it's yoga classes, things that get you to live a healthier life. But it's absolutely a wonderful point and they think it's going to be more popular in the future.

Me: That's definitely a gap that they're missing out on, absolutely. Love that we dovetail nicely into that, and you're able to kind of give us a pretty good synopsis of what the book is about. I have started consuming it, I remember that story about the gentleman at the beginning, because I remember reading that at the beginning. I haven't completed the book fully yet, but I'm really enjoying the content and the comparisons, which is why I asked that first question at the beginning. So, I'm really appreciative of how you went into it and gave us some really good examples.

App, Website or Tool that Peter Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Peter shared that that's a great question. And he will tell say that he’s sure like he’s everybody else in that it's got to be Google. It's just a wealth of information, which ultimately leads to more specific sites and content that reflect the uniqueness of the search.

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Michelle MacCarthy is Global Vice President of Customer Experience at Unit4. In her role, Michelle leads a talented team of professionals, is responsible for ensuring the maximum adoption of and customer satisfaction with Unit4’s offerings and is accountable for leading the transformation of Unit4’s customer experience strategy that enables the customer success evolution.

Michelle earned her B.S in Marketing from Miami University in Ohio, and her Executive MBA in Global Management from Fordham University in New York.

Questions

• We always give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, if you could take a few minutes to kind of just share with our audience a little bit about how you got to where you are today.

• So, Unit4, could you share with our audience a little bit about what Unit4is? What do you guys do?

• KPIs in terms of like NPS and customer satisfaction score. A lot of organisations also invest into market research, particularly like mystery shopping, and the mystery shopping sometimes will capture the NPS. What are your views on the frequency of doing these types of activities? And do you think it's critical to be doing it post transactional? Or should it be more so a conversation that you have with the client, maybe at the end of every quarter? What are some of your best practices that you'd recommend to clients?

• If you really want to focus on dominating, navigating that CX space in such a positive way, that your brand has an exceptionally positive reputation, what are some key indicators that you believe organisations need to focus on as we go into 2024? Where do they need to be giving their attention to?

• Now, could you also share with us what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that has had a great impact on you?

• We have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel they have great products and services. But they lack the human capital that has that constant motivation, what's the one piece of advice that you'd give them to have a successful business having that consistent challenge that they're experiencing?

• Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed, or you got off track, just reminding yourself about that quote will kind of help to get you back on track, help you to get more focused. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Michelle’s Journey

Michelle stated that she started off her career and kind of more of the traditional marketing, b2c and b2b type roles on the client side. And started in the advertising agency space, worked for a number of different retailers and brands, and eventually had kind of rounded out her experience and wanted to move into more of the tech side of things.

She had some opportunities to go and work on the SaaS side of the business for a company called Vibes, which is a mobile marketing technology company. And through that experience, and kind of rounding out her mobile marketing experience, she was able to kind of continue her career path then into other SaaS organisations. And so, by herself, here today, very excited to be talking with you (Yanique).

Tell Us About Unit4

Me: So, Unit4, could you share with our audience a little bit about what Unit4is? What do you guys do?

Michelle shared that Unit4 is a cloud leader, really in the enterprise software space for midmarket, people centred organisations. And so, their solutions span everything from enterprise resource planning to financial planning and analysis tools, as well as procurement, project management for professional services organizations and so forth, as well as human capital management.

So, their solutions really bring together all those various capabilities around financials, procurement, project management, HR, into one unified and cloud platform through their ERPX solution. So yeah, that's a little bit about Unit4.

Me: Quite a mouthful. So, at Unit4, a big part of what you focus on, we kind of alluded to it a bit before we started the official recording, how is it that you are able to improve CX by embracing customer centricity as a core value? And of course, there are some KPIs that you need to measure, so that's your area of expertise. So, could you share a little bit about that with our audience?

Michelle stated that she really believes that organizations need to always be looking how they stand out from the crowd, right. In order to do that, we have to find better ways to address customer needs, and make sure that we're providing value and attainable outcomes. We need business experience that extends past traditional customer touchpoints and make sure that we're always looking at ways that we can influence product innovation, we need to look at the employee experience, because employee experience really translates to that of the customer experience. And we need to make sure that also aligns with our customers organization serves their purpose and our values.

So, one of the first steps in improving customer experience is really looking for a top down buy in across customer centricity and putting that at the heart of everything that you do in your business. So, whatever role you serve in the organization, that some way touches the end customer.

And so, customer companies need to really be making sure that they're measuring customer centric KPIs in order to determine how are we doing? And how are our customers feeling about us? So, we always want to look at how well we're looking at gaining new customers into the business, how are we growing the existing base of customers that we have? And how are we ultimately retaining the customers that we have to make sure that they're becoming long term champions of our business through the success that they've achieved together in partnership with us?

To kind of delve a little bit more into some of the KPIs, a couple of the things that we might look at are things like Net Promoter Score. So, looking at that kind of scale of 0 to 10 on how likely a customer is to recommend your company to a peer or colleague, looking at things like Customer Satisfaction Scores and making sure that those are kind of sprinkled all throughout the key listening posts of our customers.

So, wherever they are engaging with us, whether that's post sales, or that's post implementation, or that's post a business review that we've had with them, we want to make sure that we're always facilitating, and asking for their feedback and making sure that we are taking that, capturing that feedback and looping back to set proper expectations with customers.

Recommended Frequency of Market Research Activities

Me: So, I'm glad you talked about KPIs in terms of like NPS and Customer Satisfaction Score. A lot of organisations also invest millions of dollars, sometimes even billions into market research, particularly like mystery shopping, and the mystery shopping sometimes will capture the NPS. What are your views on the frequency of doing these types of activities? And do you think it's critical to be doing it post transactional? Or should it be more so a conversation that you have with the client, maybe at the end of every quarter? What are some of your best practices that you'd recommend to clients?

Michelle stated that frequency and cadence is definitely key, depending on the types of engagements, you want to make sure that they're throughout the customer's journey at the appropriate time. So, if you have a new customer that's joined, one of the things she mentioned is post sale, you have a customer that's gone through potentially a lengthy sales process with you, how did they find working across the organization, that's a great time for you to kind of see how the beginning part of their journey into implementation will go.

Then you may also want to survey a customer as they're coming out of an implementation with you. So, after they've worked with the project management teams and met their CSM, how is that work stream going?

It's also key to mention business reviews. We may do quarterly business reviews with some of our customers. And so, making sure to take stock coming out of those meetings, what was the expectation? Did they see, hear, feel everything that they were expecting to have?

And so, she thinks it's a real combination of both the quantitative surveys, but also those qualitative conversations to probe a bit deeper, where you may not have the opportunity, and just a quick plug in one question or two questions survey that sent via email. Having that face-to-face dialogue, or that phone call or that Zoom video just to meet with a customer and kind of ask some more of those probing questions is definitely key.

She thinks that that is just as important during the beginning and middle phases of the journey with a customer as it is when you're coming up on renewal, so you may be looking at certain health indicators and want to also probe a bit deeper on some of those with customers, “Hey, you know, I've seen that you're expanding in your licences, tell me about how your company is utilizing those?”

Or conversely, you might have a customer that's decided to move away from a portion of your product, “Tell me a bit more about why it is that you're leaving there, what you weren't adopting or finding useful, so that we can learn and bring that back into the business.”

It also helps us from a churn management perspective, make sure that we are thinking about that and building that back into our way that we look at risk and mitigating risks with our customers.

Key Indicators that Organizations Need to Focus On for 2024

Me: So, many different avenues and strategies that we can employ to ensure that we're doing the right kind of measurement. So, we are now in I would say, we're at the end of 2023. And we're embarking on 2024 and a lot has happened in the last couple of years, especially with a global pandemic and all, what are some key things that you found, trends that you've maybe seen just in your own business, as well as with your clients’ businesses that you believe if you really want to focus on dominating, navigating that CX space in such a positive way, that your brand has an exceptionally positive reputation and you have so many brand advertisers and evangelists for your business. What are some key indicators that you believe organizations need to focus on as we go into 2024? Where do they need to be giving their attention to?

Michelle stated that she thinks that there's always a focus around personalization of an experience and how you can help customers throughout their journey to better smooth areas that potentially create bumps for them, can that happen through automation, Chat GPT? Can that help it happen through other self-service capabilities that you can serve up to them?

And she also thinks probably goes without being said but ensuring that expectations of customers are properly managed all throughout.

Making sure that you're always having dialogue with the customers’ needs in mind, that you're addressing pain points and the more and more that you can address those pain points through self-service, automation, ways that they can just make sure that they are able to get a quick path to value is really key, that frictionless experience for customers.

App, Website or Tool that Michelle Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Michelle stated that for her, obviously Microsoft Teams, they use day in and day out in their business to communicate with their customers, to communicate with their teams internally.

But one other, she would say tool that they use heavily within the customer success management space, is Gainsight. And that is a tool that allows them to bring so much knowledge and power into their organisation. It allows their CSMs to know what right move to make next in terms of how to engage both internally and externally with their customers.

And it's becoming really more and more of a theatre of having a true customer 360 within their organization, so really, that single pane of glass view, if you will, of what their customers are experiencing. And so, if she had to pick one tool, she guesses she'd picked Gainsight because they're using it day in and day out and it's been really paramount to their success.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Michelle

When asked about books that has had an impact, Michelle shared that one book that she did read, it's been a very long time ago. But it was Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. She read that during her graduate school programme. And despite that, it's been around for ages, she thinks it really does a great job of cutting to the core of how you can set yourself up to best relate with others through the power of being able to build strong relationships, and making sure that those relationships are built on like a mutual trust and credibility. So, she thinks that that is always relevant, no matter what role you're in, how do you build relationships? How do you help drive influence? So, that's just been a really meaningful book to her throughout the course of her career.

One other thing she was going to add is that she listens to a number of different podcasts, perhaps different than books. But one podcast that she really enjoys is Mel Robbins Podcast, because she thinks she teaches a lot of both professional and personal habits that you can apply to everyday life, how you can really make sure that you're leading a productive and happy lifestyle and that you have that good work life balance. So, if you haven't checked Mel Robbins out, her podcast is great.

Me: Two excellent recommendations, Michelle. I totally agree with you about Dale Carnegie's book, the book came out in 1933, literally, many, many years ago, almost 100 years old. But the principles and concepts in that book are still relevant today. And I do listen to Mel's podcasts, and I follow her on most of her social media platforms, love her content. So, excellent recommendations for audience.

Advice for Business Owners and Managers Who Have Great Products and Services but Lack the Constantly Motivated Human Capital

Me: Now, we have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel they have great products and services. But sometimes they feel like they have constantly demotivated human capital, they lack the human capital that has that constant motivation. And motivation is one of those behaviours or competencies that comes from within, you can encourage it, but you can't actually evoke it or make it happen. So, if you were sitting across the table from that person, those business owners or managers today, what's the one piece of advice that you'd give them to have a successful business having that consistent challenge that they're experiencing?

When asked about advice she would give for the lack motivated human capital, Michelle shared that she thinks one of the most important things for her in terms of motivation is always trying to understand from a customer perspective, what it is that they're trying to achieve, because she thinks she gets a lot of motivation out of helping others. And she thinks when you feel like you have a true understanding of the problems that you're trying to solve, what tools you have at your disposal, and you feel like you can harness that power to find a way for those customers to excel and to drive outcomes in their business, that's extremely motivating to her.

Everybody and perhaps new business owners or business owners, she really likes the idea of kind of starting before you're ready, everything has a beginning, right. And it's not going to be perfect, but she thinks the more and more you practice, and the more and more you get into the rhythm, you find that you figure your way through, everything is kind of easy to figureoutable. So, she likes the idea of kind of just starting things before maybe you feel like you've got it completely figured out and reframing things kind of as you work through them. So, that's kind of how she works through times of adversity or new skill sets she needs to kind of build rapidly and that's worked well for her.

What Michelle is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Michelle shared that back over the beginning of the summer, they had a in person leadership seminar that they had done as a leadership team going through kind of the Clifton Strength Finders exercise. And she’s done all sorts of disc assessments and different things throughout the course of her career, but she really found that particular assessment very valuable. And for those of the listeners that might not be familiar, it's basically an online assessment you can take, takes about 20-30 minutes. And when you go through it, it ranks your top 5, top 10 and kind of, they call them all 34 of them strengths.

And then you kind of understand where you can lean into a bit more as a leader. And by sharing it with your peers, you can really get a sense of how other people learn, how they like to communicate, how you give and receive feedback. And so, she actually liked that so much within their leadership conversations, she’s cascaded that down with her direct reports. And they've had some very, very good conversations about that, she thinks she’s just uncovered ways of working with people that she wouldn't have necessarily known.

And it also helps from a leadership perspective, and she thinks managing perspective, understand more the types of skills that people have, the types of things that are motivation factors for them, so that you can really make the most impact of your team.

Her top strength coming out of that was individualization, which basically is your ability to kind of take a survey across the landscape and understand which individuals that are best suited for which areas and how to best pull out the different strengths of people you work with.

And so, it was eye opening to see some of the things she might have thought she would have scored higher on versus those that she perhaps has some developmental opportunities with. So, if people haven't taken that, she would highly encourage it, she found it extremely valuable. And she knows her team enjoyed the conversations that they had off the back of the exercise.

Where Can We Find Michelle Online

LinkedIn: Michelle MacCarthy

Website: https://www.unit4.com/

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Michelle Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tend to revert to during times of adversity or challenge, Michelle stated that she thinks one of the things from Mel Robbins and it's not necessarily a quote, but she has The 5 Second Rule and one of the things she has been trying to do whenever she feels like she’s getting off track, or maybe you start to go down a negative path is just to say yourself, “5, 4, 3, 2, 1” and then launch yourself into doing what you next need to do. So, that's from her book The 5 Second Rule: Transform Your Life, Work, and Confidence with Everyday Courage, Mel Robbins. But she’s really been trying to use that to break habits and people use it to get themselves out of bed in the morning, from going down a negative path.

So, the other one that she would say she really like, and it's from John Maxwell is, “A leader knows the way, goes the way and shows the way.” And she thinks that's so powerful to remember, it's not just about kind of saying the vision, but it's also about walking the talk. So, she'll leave us with that.

Me: Amazing. Thank you so much, Michelle. Now, Michelle, we just want to express our deepest gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule to kind of hop on this podcast and share with our audience a little bit about your journey, how you got to where you are today, why it is important to ensure that you're measuring for the right things as it relates to improving CX in your business and of course embracing customer centricity as a core value. And then looking at also the frequency of how you do those measurements, and what kind of things you really need to be targeting and focused on at different periods of your business to ensure that you're really delivering on the expectations of your customers and of course, aiming to exceed those expectations to create that long lasting relationship. So, your insights today, your knowledge today, all that you shared with us today, we are extremely grateful. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie

• The 5 Second Rule: Transform Your Life, Work, and Confidence with Everyday Courage by Mel Robbins

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View Details

Adam Bryant is a Senior Managing Director and Partner at the ExCo Group, where he works with hundreds of senior leaders and high-potential executives. As the creator and former author of the iconic “Corner Office” column in The New York Times, Bryant has mastered the art of distilling real-world lessons from his hundreds of interviews and turning them into practical tools, presentations and exercises to help companies deepen their leadership benches and strengthen their teams.

He also works with executive leadership teams to help drive their transformation strategies based on a best practices framework he developed for his widely praised book, THE CEO TEST: Master the Challenges That Make or Break All Leaders.

Questions

• We always like to ask our guests in their own words, could you share a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got to where you are today.

• What would you say the ratio was in terms of gender, and even generation in terms of the number of CEOs that you interviewed? Would you say you got a wide cross section of different generations? And would you say it's more of a male to female higher ratio, or vice versa? Or do you think it was balanced? And did you find any differences based on those considerations that I just mentioned?

• What would you say are three overarching themes that you'd have picked up or trends that you picked up from those interviews?

• What are some ways that you believe the leaders can help to reinforce at least to strengthen any doubts that employees may have to ensure that they recognise that the technology, that artificial intelligence is not there to get rid of them, but rather to make their jobs easier.

• Could you also share with our audience what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read that have had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• Now, we have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel sometimes that their products and services, of course, are the best, but sometimes they lack the constantly motivated human capital. And so, if you're sitting across the table from that person, what's the one piece of advice that you would give them to have a successful business?

• Now, could you also share with us what's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed, or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Adam’s Journey

Adam shared that he was a journalist for 30 years, 18 years he was at the New York Times, spent a lot of years as a business reporter and interviewed a lot of CEOs. And he just found over time, the more he spent with CEOs, the more he wanted to set aside the usual questions people ask of CEOs about their company strategy and their products and services and things like that. And just ask them kind of how do you do what you do? And how did you learn to do what you do?

So, he rolled that impulse up into this very simple “What if” in 2009 and it was what if I sat down with CEOs, and never asked them a single question about their companies? And instead just ask them about personal leadership lessons they've learned over the course of their lives and how they think about all the universal challenges of leadership, like hiring and building teams and culture and all those things. So, that was kind of the initial idea, and sort of brought him very much into the leadership space.

So, he did that for a decade, interviewed more than 525 CEOs, started writing books and teaching leadership and all that was a side project in addition to his day job managing teams of reporters at The Times. And he left The Times 6 years ago to join his current firm, the ExCo Group. And as said, their core business is kind of one on one mentoring and leadership development and he’s got 4 interview series on LinkedIn, and continue writing books and interviewing leaders about leadership, not about company strategy. So, that's kind of the thumbnail.

Gender or Generation Influence on Leadership

Me: So, leadership is your thing, Adam, and I heard that you interviewed 500 and odd people, that's a lot of people to be talking about. And I can imagine that, what would you say the ratio was in terms of gender, and even generation in terms of the number of CEOs that you interviewed? Would you say you got a wide cross section of different generations? And would you say it's more of a male to female higher ratio, or vice versa? Or do you think it was balanced? And did you find any differences based on those considerations that I just mentioned?

Adam stated that he appreciates the question. And it was the 500 plus for the New York Times, and with all the interviews that he’s been doing on LinkedIn since, he’s now passed the 1000 interview milestone, but to your question. So, he told the story of how he created the Corner Office column based on that simple “What if” and the other sort of guiding principle he set for himself from the very start was that he was going to embrace diversity in every sense of the word - race, gender, nationality, for profit, not for profit, size of company, really want to get as much of a cross section as he could. Interviewed a couple of leaders from Jamaica as well, a guy named Lloyd Carney, who ran Brocade Communications.

And so, his goal was very much to not just go down this sort of fortune 500 list of CEOs, because then it's going to be overwhelmingly white males, of course. And he really wanted to get a complete view of leadership.

And to your question about patterns that he was looking for, he thinks there are pretty clear patterns, like talking to young CEOs who run tech companies in Silicon Valley is a slightly different conversation than somebody who's running at Fortune 20 company, for example.

But on the specific question of gender and being in first couple of 100 interviews he did, he’s always sort of looking for patterns and sometimes when he would give talks, people would say, “Have you noticed any differences between men and women leadership styles?” And he has to say, where he comes down is that he doesn't, there's just too many exceptions to the generalizations and stereotypes that people have about men and female leadership styles. So, to the point is like there's so many exceptions that for him, the generalizations and stereotypes do break down at the sort of CEO level.

People have written a lot about it and talk a lot about how one of the differences between men and women when they're coming up in their careers that women will sometimes feel like they need to be 100% qualified for a job before they go for it. Whereas men are much more willing to raise their hand even if they're not ready. And that may be true. And there's a lot of research around that. But for people in the CEO role and their leadership style, he really didn't see the difference, to be clear, not in terms of whether they were the same, they had different leadership styles, but just around EQ or IQ or extrovert, or introvert or different styles, it didn't break down along gender lines for him.

Three Themes/Trends Identified From Leadership Interviews

Me: Now, you said you've way surpassed 1000 mark as it relates to CEO interviews, especially with your LinkedIn profile of interviews added to that. Across the many different interviews you've done, I imagine for CEOs across many different industries, what would you say are, let's say three overarching themes that you found that is critical for a leader to be successful, especially if the leader is trying to ensure that customer experience is one of the KPIs that they believe in, not just about operational of the business or making the profits, but having a culture where people value the internal customer experience and of course, there's some, I would say, measurement, or some assessment that's being done to ensure that it's been transcended to the external customers as well. What would you say are three overarching themes that you'd have picked up or trends that you picked up from those interviews?

Adam stated that it's a great question about what are sort of the common themes that through lines from all the interviews. And he'll start with the idea of simplifying complexity, which he thinks is an art form, it's a skill. And he doesn't think you can be a CEO or an effective leader if you're not good at simplifying complexity, there's a lot going on in the world, in different industries, inside your company and he really feel like it is a leader’s job to be able to stand in front of their entire team at an all hands meeting or on a zoom call, and just answer those really simple questions that frankly, little kids ask in the backseat of the car, like, “Where are we going? How are we going to get there? When are we going to get there? And not everybody does that.

We've all encountered people who actually seem to add more complexity to things, but you've got to be able to simplify complexity and boil it down to the 3 or 4 things that are really going to matter at your company. And he just thinks that's a really critical skill and depending on the nature of your business, but if you are in a customer service business, and that's crucial to your success, then you've got to be really clear about how that is going to drive your success and you can't be the leader who says we have 20 priorities and customer service is one of them. If it really is critical to driving your success, it has to be one of a hit handful of key priorities and there's got to be a way to measure it, you have to talk about it all the time, you have to role model it, and just keep shining that bright spotlight on why it's important. So, he thinks that's one.

In terms of a couple of other things, because people often wonder, like if I want to be a CEO? Like how do I get to the corner office?

And he finds people are often trying to think of like, well, what's the right path? And they wonder, you know, am I on the right path if I want to get that job. And based on all the interviews he’s done, he’s come down on the idea that there really is no right path per se, directionally, there's obvious things if you want to get to a certain place, you have to be moving in the broadly in the direction toward that. But in terms of the specific path, it's not about sort of checking boxes and getting certain titles, but the thing that has really struck him about all the leaders that he’s interviewed is that they make the most of the path that they are on.

So, it's not like they're wondering, am I on the right path? It's whatever they are doing, they've realized that there are life lessons and leadership lessons everywhere, and you can always be learning. And to him, that's one of the skills that really sets people apart that whatever experience they're having, and the metaphor he likes to use is that your experience is like this sort of wet towel, like it absorbs all this experience. But then, what do you do with that, and he thinks the best leaders take that talent, they sort of twist it and wring it, and just get every last drop of insight and lesson around it, from it. Because, again, there are lessons everywhere, you can learn from a bad boss, you can learn from a good boss, you can learn from watching teams.

And so, the really high performers to him is they're always making time to process and reflect and say, “Okay, what did I experience? What did I see? What are the patterns? What are the lessons that I can learn from that?” And the final point he'll make in terms of how you succeeded, we could talk about this for hours, but just one of them that he thinks really sets people apart is the simple idea of being a good listener. Because he feels like it's one of those things it's not taught in business schools, he doesn't know of any business school that teaches a course on listening, but he feels like it's really an underappreciated superpower of good leaders.

Because whenever you start thinking, like, I've got all the answers, like, that's when you're dead in the water. And so, you have to just have a really great skills as listener to get everybody's best thinking out on the table so that you really know what's going on in your organization, because history is filled with stories of big companies that got into trouble because nobody wanted to tell the boss the bad news.

So, you've got to not only be a good listener, one on one and in team settings, but you've almost got to build an infrastructure at your companies so that you know what's really happening and so that there's not some like, bad news on the front lines or trouble spots that you're not hearing about. So, to him, those are the three things that jumped to mind when you asked that question.

Ways Leaders Can Help Reinforce to Employees the True Role of Artifical Intelligence

Me: So, leadership is very important, as it relates to delivering a strong customer experience. And I always tell my clients that mud flows from the top of the stream, so meaning, if the leadership is poor, and customer service, or customer experience is not important to them, it really flows all the way down to the end user, which is the customer, whether it's digital experience or face to face.

In your experience, especially with so much technology happening out there nowadays, we have Chat GPT, there's a lot of artificial intelligence coming on board. And I mean up to last night, I was watching the local news, and they had a question poll that they were posing to Jamaicans stating did they feel that their jobs are in jeopardy as it relates to AI being so evolving and coming about.

And so, I wanted your views on as it relates to leadership, what are some ways as I don't think that people's jobs are going to become obsolete. I believe that human interaction is something that we will always need, regardless of the industry that you are in, and I believe the technology is there to definitely enhance the experience not to replace it.

But based on your research across the different industries, what are some ways that you believe the leaders can help to reinforce at least to strengthen any doubts that employees may have to ensure that they recognize that the technology, the artificial intelligence is not there to get rid of them, but rather to make their jobs easier?

Adam stated that to him, what Yanique just said is the answer. The point of AI and technology is to take care of much more of the routine things so that we as human beings can add more value and let the machines take care of stuff. So, ideally, it will take care of just those rote aspects of our jobs so that we can figure out better ways to add value, because that's ultimately what's about, right, like, how are we individually and as teams creating value for the company.

And in terms of leadership's role in all this, he often comes back to the power of stories, which is a big part of communication, because he thinks there are some leaders who are good at saying the right words and phrases, and it's easy to stand on a stage and say customer service is really important. But he thinks telling and sharing stories is how you make that real. And whether that story is about how you as a leader, customer service is really important to you and your experience in your life and the success of the company, and then to sort of tell stories to highlight people on the team who have really gone above and beyond and make them the heroes.

Because he thinks company culture, maybe everybody talks about values, and a lot of culture is determined by who gets fired and who gets promoted and compensation structures. But he often thinks about culture is determined in large part by the hero narratives that the companies tell because if you think of companies like tribes, they are tribes in a sense, that it's really like who does the tribe hold up as a hero? And what did they do? And if customer service is really key to your success, then how do you as a leader tell the hero narratives, tell the stories, highlight the people that went above and beyond.

To him, that's one of the ways from a leadership point of view, you make people feel like, “Wow, this really is important.”

And it's not just the heroes within the company, but also telling the stories about your customers, and how you are helping them and having an impact on their businesses in their lives. So, he often come back to this idea that leaders in many ways are like the storytellers and chief and so they've got to tell those stories and share those narratives.

App, Website or Tool that Adam Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he cannot live without in his business, Adam shared that he probably do spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. He mentioned that sounds like a really obvious answer, but just in the work that he does, and he’s got 4 interview series, and he really believes that LinkedIn is emerged as kind of the Facebook for business, and everybody's on it.

And people have written about this before, but he also thinks it's just an important reminder that there's a lot of toxic stuff on different social media sites and he just stated the blindingly obvious, but he does find LinkedIn is a pretty positive place. Like people are generally pretty supportive of each other, and then they kind of put their best selves there. So, that's where he spends a lot of time.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Adam

When asked about books that has had a great impact, Adam stated that in terms just in terms of fiction. He recently finished a book called Demon Copperhead: A Pulitzer Prize Winner by Barbara Kingsolver, he thinks it won the Pulitzer Prize. It’s been a long time since he’s read a work of fiction that had as much insight about human nature and just packed with wisdom. So, he does recommend that.

Non-fiction, he really like adventure books, he has to say. So, stories about whaling adventures in the old days and how people survived, he’s really drawn to stories about resilience and what people do when they're facing a really tough task. So, he’s often drawn to that.

Advice for Business Owners and Managers Who Have Great Products and Services but Lack the Constantly Motivated Human Capital

Me: Now, we have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel sometimes that their products and services, of course, are the best, but sometimes they lack the constantly motivated human capital. And so, if you're sitting across the table from that person, what's the one piece of advice that you would give them to have a successful business?

Adam shared that to him, it's about constantly going back to the why. And people talk a lot about mission and purpose. And he'll be honest, he finds that conversation, especially happened after in the last few years, just companies have been talking a lot about their purpose and mission statements. And some of them he will confess does make him a little sceptical, because they are often very broad and general, and at such a high altitude, they feel kind of disconnected from the business. And very often they're just some version of make the world a better place.

But he thinks there is an art form to doing that, right, which is to constantly be communicating people and reminding people about the impact that you're having as a business. Because his prediction and not asking you to bet 20 bucks on his prediction, but he feels like this moment we're in where purpose discussions are so front and centre, he thinks those are going to be shifting more towards impact over time. And to him, the difference is that when you talk about purpose, that's really about your intent. And that's the very internal, you're basically saying, “When I get up in the morning, this is my purpose. Nobody can question that.” Because you say this is in my heart.

He thinks one of the things that special and unique about business, is that it's more about impact, which is how do you show that purpose in action? So, to him, that's much more about like almost proof, like we said, this is our purpose, but this is what we're doing. We want to show you, we want to be able to document and show you the impact that we're having.

And he thinks as a leader, we can all get kind of pulled down to just the day to day of the business. But you often have to sort of pick your head up and remind people and just sort of take stock and say, “Look at the difference we're making in people's lives.” And when you say those things, they should be tied directly to the business, it shouldn't feel disconnected. And you don't have to worry about being so lofty, and everybody's making the world a better place, you can be very much like look at the difference we're making for our customers and what we're doing. Because that helps bring out people's like, passion and pride. And then you're going to get that extra effort from them.

What Adam is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Adam stated that at a personal level be very mundane at the risk of oversharing, but he’s really focused on ping pong these days.

Me: Really? Are you trying to master it?

Adam stated hardly master it, but he’s sort of living in New Orleans now. And they moved there a few years ago, their two daughters moved there, and so, they joined them. And as he recently passed a birthday with a number six in front of it, he sort of decided he wanted to get back in touch with his inner teenager and start taking up some sports and things. So, he actually has a ping pong coach. He stated that he knows that sounds pretty unusual.

Me: That is brilliant.

Adam stated that he trains with him a couple of days a week. And his metrics scoreboard about whether he’s getting better or not, is he played his son-in-law once a week for a couple of hours, and what's cool is when you're 61, and you say, I want to get better at that, and you actually get better at it. That's pretty cool. So that's his very personal thing he’s focused on right now.

But much more broadly, he’s been in the leadership field and he’s pretty passionate about it for a couple of reasons. He will say that if you give him a really big magic wand with three things to do it, he would get rid of racism, inequality and bad bosses because there are still too many bad bosses in the world.

And he thinks sometimes we under appreciate what a toxic effect they have on individuals and by extension their families. And that's not just to be negative about that but what also gets him out of bed is just trying to help people be better leaders for those who do want to be better managers and leaders. And he thinks there's a huge responsibility and privilege that comes with that.

His approach to leadership, he doesn't wake up in the middle of the night pretending he’s come up with some new theory, he takes more of a journalistic approach to understanding leadership and interviewing people who are leading and have been leading for a long time. And then what he tries and do is sort of share the insights and the stories and the frameworks and really open up that conversation so that people could say, “Wow, that's a great tip, I can take that and use it with my own team.” So, if at the end of the day he could make a small contribution and help people become better as managers and leaders, that's pretty motivating.

Where Can We Find Adam Online

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adambryantleadership/

Personal: https://adambryantbooks.com/about-adam/

Book:https://www.amazon.com/Leap-Leader-Ambitious-Managers-Leadership/dp/1647824893/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3GPHBI3CJH7I1&keywords=leap+to+leader+adam+bryant&qid=1682433550&sprefix=leap+to+leader+adam+bryant%2Caps%2C76&sr=8-1

Twitter: https://twitter.com/adambbryant

Website: https://www.excoleadership.com/

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Adam Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Adam shared that there's probably a couple that he always falls back on. And he’s heard this from CEOs he’s interviewed, but one of them is that “95% of the worst things that happen to you in your life very often turn out to be the best things that happened to you in your life.” And that's not to say all of them, right. And some things that happened to you there's nothing good about them. But when you think back on your life, and sort of those moments of adversity that you've faced, very often they did turn out to be like, really important pivot points that helped you grow and build character. And there's a lot of lessons and insights there. So even though when you're in the middle of something it feels pretty dark, sort of know that over time, you're going to learn a lot from that.

And there's a couple of other short answers. There's that expression, “You're either winning or learning. It's not about winning or losing, but it's about winning or learning.” So, there's always lessons that you can and should be taking from whatever adversity you're going through. If you feel like you've failed or disappointed yourself, it's like that happens to everybody. Right? But the question is, what do you do with it? What is that wet towel of experience that you can then take and ring and say, okay, “What are the insights here and keep squeezing it for that?”

Me: Thank you so much for sharing. We'll definitely have those two in the show notes of this episode. Well, Adam, we are at the end of our interview, I can't believe it feels like we just started talking but thank you so much for jumping on this podcast today and sharing all of these great insights and nuggets as it relates to leadership, all of the great information and experiences that you've garnered over the years talking to CEOs as you had mentioned from so many different industries from all different walks of life across the world. I am sure that anyone who listens to this episode will pick up at least one thing that they can run with to help them sharpen their leadership skills. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Demon Copperhead: A Pulitzer Prize Winner by Barbara Kingsolver

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

CJ Stratte is a highly accomplished female entrepreneur, currently serving as a CEO and President of On The Move Trucks, a successful turn-key truck rental company catering to self-storage and real estate professionals. With substantial experience in the industry, CJ has been instrumental in driving the company's growth and expansion over the years.

As a sought-after speaker at various self-storage events, CJ has shared her extensive knowledge and expertise on topics such as business strategy, marketing and customer service, offering valuable insights to industry professionals.

CJ is a true marketing enthusiast and firmly believes in the power of effective marketing to drive business success. Throughout her career, she has demonstrated a deep commitment to excellence, innovation and providing exceptional value to clients, helping On The Move Trucks establish a strong reputation as a leader in the truck rental industry.

Questions

• So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, in your own words, how did you get from where you were then to where you are today?

• Could you share with our audience, maybe two or three, I would say lessons that you've learned along the way that you found has been influential in helping the business to become more customer centric.

• What are some ways in which the marketing aspect because I know you mentioned in your bio that you focus a lot on marketing, how have you been able to kind of marry what you're doing with marketing to kind of infuse that into the experience that the customer has.

• Could you share with our listeners, maybe two things that are of great importance to you when do business with an organisation.

• Now, could you also share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you. It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

• We do have a lot of listeners that tap into this podcast who are business owners and managers, who they have great products and services, but sometimes they like to constantly motivated human capital, if one of those persons were sitting across the room from you right now and they asked you, what's the one piece of advice that you could give them to kind of turn that human capital motivation around, what would that be?

• Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people?

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote? It kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

CJ’s Journey

CJ shared that it's been an interesting journey, she originally went to college, she wanted to own a hotel. And so, she went to school to do that and she took a marketing class and changed her whole trajectory of her career and plans that she thought she had, how you do when you are 18 going to school, you think you know it all, but she really grasp into marketing and have enjoyed the career that she’s had with it.

She’s luckily worked for a family business and so, they had a marketing director when she began working there, but she quit, and her family never replaced her. So, she just kind of stepped in and did the work and taught herself how to do all the marketing for their company and have experimented in all. They didn't have Facebook marketing classes back when she was in school or social media for marketing purposes. So, it's been an interesting change over the years with the technology and all the creepy things we can do in marketing now.

Lessons Learned Helping Her Business Be Customer Centric

Me: Could you share with our audience, maybe two or three, I would say lessons that you've learned along the way that you found has been influential in helping the business to become more customer centric.

CJ shared that she is very focused on the customers, we're here to make them great, her product is to make their product better, which is very fun, gives her a lot of passion about what she does. But her biggest thing is that she’s trying to make it easier for their customers to do everything, they have a pretty basic product like truck rental, it's not very sexy, there's many things you can do to change it but the technology has changed where they can make it easier for her storage facility owners to make it easier for their customers to book it. Even with you just using simple technology that we have like Calendly and like using that as a tool to book trucks and make it easier for their customers to not have to be so involved with looking at calendars and going back and forth with dates. So, that's been very cool with their customers are a lot happier with the time that it takes to book a rental makes them look more professional.

And so, they provide the whole software for them to be able to do that and she’s changed it a couple of times over the last couple years or actually over the last 20 years. So, their software now is it was very old school when she first got a hold of it then, it was like you had to drop down every number for like the time, so you'd have to go scroll down to a one and then go zero and am and all that, it was very time consuming.

So, they are about to launch their newest software that she’s been working on for the last year, where they basically just send a link to their customer to rent their truck, and they don't have to worry about it. So, really excited about that. They also do a quarterly magazine for their customers, which they feature different tips and tricks that they've heard from other customers, they have their customers write articles for them for the magazine. So, she really liked the ability to share the success stories, and how the best way to use their truck.

She loves it when they use it for charity. So, they'll donate their truck usage of running their trucks out to maybe the women's shelter or other organizations within the community. So, she loves hearing those stories.

And another way they have really worked with their customers is she actually personally will get on a Zoom, they are a nationwide company, so Zoom has been a whole life changer with getting in front of her customers and being like, “Okay, why is your truck rental not working? How can you rent your truck out more?” And seeing what's going on, and so, she has Zoom calls with customers and like, “Okay, if you want to get your truck out more, maybe we should have a sign outside.” And she’s created signs and printed them for customers and just the more successful they are with their products that she supplies, then the better off she is too, so she’s just really working with their customers and their successes is what she believes is important to be successful.

Infuse Marketing Into the Experience That Customers Have

Me: So, in addition to working with the customers and having that one on one touch point kind of interaction with them, as you mentioned just now, could you share with us, our listeners, what are some ways in which the marketing aspect because I know you mentioned in your bio that you focus a lot on marketing, how have you been able to kind of marry what you're doing with marketing to kind of infuse that into the experience that the customer has, you kind of touched on it a little bit when you mentioned the technology, and customer experience in terms of creating that frictionless, seamless experience. But are there any other things that you've been doing that kind of helps to enhance that?

CJ shared that the fun thing about what they do is they actually help their customers custom design the graphics for their truck, to be able to advertise their business. So, they definitely get asked their advice and make sure that the spelling is correct, that kind of thing. They've come up with helpful marketing phrases to use. And so, that's part of it, like just really working with their customers hand in hand to give them the product that they are looking for. But they also have the expertise to know what has been successful with their customers.

And so, if they see custom graphics that maybe don't look great, she’s not afraid to say something to her customers and be like, “Maybe not use so many words, or let's use a different colour, you can't really see that far away,” and that kind of thing.

Aspects of Service Delivery that is Important to CJ as a Customer

Me: So, you do get hands on, which is really great. Now, as a consumer yourself CJ, to kind of take yourself out to the situation where you are actually the service provider, but you are the person that the service is being provided to, could you share with our listeners, maybe two things that are of great importance to you when do business with an organiation.

CJ shared that she always believes follow up is always great. She gets super busy, but she really wants a product and she just have a couple more questions, but then she gets another product she wants. And then she has more questions about that and so she forgets about product one, so she just thinks having patience with our customers and realising that they're busy just as she is. And she really wants to buy something, but she forgets about it.

And so, she just thinks follow up is really great with a customer experience, it doesn't mean that they don't want it, it's just they have kids or emergency at work where it just gets put to the backburner. So, she just always like having people being patient with her but keeping in touch about different products that she’s looking to buy and keeping it in her forefront with just a polite nudge with an email or a call or whatever. But just not to be forgotten just because she didn't call back doesn't mean she’s not interested.

Me: All right, follow up. Very good. So, that's one thing you look out for is there another thing you'd like to share with us that you really look out for when you're doing business with an organization?

CJ shared that she really likes the customer experiences through the website and being able to find the information she needs, being able to check out if she’s purchasing something online, and just having a great experience online and making sure that your websites up to date, the links are working, that your checkout process is easy to use still.

App, Website or Tool that CJ Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resources that she cannot live without in her business, CJ stated that there's a lot. She thinks Canva is one of her favourite things that has been invented in her tenure as a marketing director, she never had the design gene, she’s always just been like the strategy. And so, having Canva has really made her able to show what she’s picturing in her head a little bit easier, and help her with her campaigns and really simplify the process, she likes that.

And then she’s just looking through her phone real quick, she’s like what else does she use, Outlook, having that app and that kind of thing on my phone so she doesn't have to wait until the next day to answer a simple request. She feels like there's an app for everything, she met her husband on an app. She definitely likes Microsoft Teams and that's always great because having the Teams app for Microsoft 365 or whatever it is and being able to quickly answer her employees when they have questions, that's been a life changer.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on CJ

When asked about books that have had a great impact, CJ shared that one of her favourite books, she likes to keep things simple and she likes a little bit of cheesiness and that kind of stuff. But she liked Rhinoceros Success: The Secret To Charging Full Speed Toward Every Opportunity by Scott Alexander, but it was a book written by a younger author, and he was just getting into the business world and he was just being like, “You got to be a Rhino, you've got to have thick skin.” And just blast through your career and don't take no for an answer type of mentality in that book.

And it was just a quick 100 page read, but she made all her sales team read it. And just, she got every little Rhinos, they got their first sale after reading that book. So, she kind of had that in here. And then she couldn't do what she does without reading the Bible, that's her go to for solving her issues and keeping strong in her career.

Advice for Business Owners and Managers Who Have Great Products and Services but Lack the Constantly Motivated Human Capital

Me: Now, could you also share with our listeners, CJ how many persons do you have in your organization in total?

CJ stated just about 20.

Me: So, I would say it could be classified as a small organization. But regardless, we do have a lot of listeners that tap into this podcast who are business owners and managers, who they have great products and services, but sometimes they like to constantly motivated human capital, if one of those persons were sitting across the room from you right now and they asked you, what's the one piece of advice that you could give them to kind of turn that human capital motivation around, what would that be?

CJ shared that she just feels like being kind and patient and understanding. There's so many things going on in the world and in people's lives, she’s always had strict bosses that are like, “Okay, be here 9 am to 5 pm.” And then not getting projects done and that kind of stuff. But she feels like if she helps her teammates get to where they're lacking and show them how she would do it. And she gives them the space to do what they need to do. But she tries to be understanding like, “Okay, I can work from home, but my daughter is sick, so I want to be home.” And so, she’s pretty lenient with that kind of stuff because she just feels like when you're happy at home, you're more productive at work. So, if she’s worried about her daughter all day being sick, then she’s not going to get any work done at the office or not.

Me: All right, so be kind and be patient.

What CJ is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s excited about, CJ shared that she’s been really excited about listening to more podcasts and being part of them actually, that's been a lot of fun. She’s learned a lot from different hosts like yourself (Yanique), and it's helping get her confidence better, like actually saying out loud what she does is very helpful with her growth, and in leadership, and that kind of thing too. So, she’s really excited about that.

She’s been really working with having more intimate meetings with her leadership team and going off campus she calls it and really just sit out there, sit together just talking like more in private, but they'll be like at a restaurant or something where they're not in front of the team. And they can just kind of say how they're feeling and what strategies they have. And they come up with great brainstorming sessions. And so, she’s really enjoyed having some of those meetings and just working closely with her leadership team to nail out some great plans.

Where Can We Find CJ Online

Linkedin – CJ Stratte

Facebook – CJ Stratte

Website – www.onthemovetrucks.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity CJ Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, CJ shared that yes, actually, she just texted it to one of her good friends, she's going through some personal issues. And she always just remembers, “Everything's temporary.” Every day goes by and if you survive to the next day, you did great. So, it's just like everything's temporary, it's not always going to be a bad day, it's not always going to be a good day. So, it's just temporary, and go to the next hurdle or the next success and be grateful for your successes and just don't harp too much on your failures.

Me: Thank you so much for sharing that quote, CJ, we will definitely have that in the show notes of this episode.

So, just want to extend our warmest gratitude and appreciation to you for jumping on this podcast with us today. I know you took time out of your very busy schedule, running a company must take up a lot of your time. And so, we want to thank you for your sharing some of the journeys that you've been on, the impact that you've had on the clients that you have as it relates to your trucking business. And just some of the benefits that customer experience can have to organizations across different industries. I do believe that what you shared today will be of great value to our listeners. So, thank you again.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Rhinoceros Success: The Secret To Charging Full Speed Toward Every Opportunity by Scott Alexander

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Kat Kennan is the founder and CEO of Radical Customer Experience™️, a ground-breaking consulting firm that encourages brands to establish genuine connections with their customers by embracing strengths-based, trauma-informed, and inclusive marketing services.

With a passion for empowering individuals and driving positive change, her mission is to help brands speak up, speak out, and foster diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in their customer interactions. As a certified trauma-informed professional, Kat brings a crucial perspective to her work, infusing every aspect of her business ventures with a deep understanding of the human experience.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So, could you tell our listeners how did you get from where you were to where you are today?

• You are very good at encouraging your brands to establish genuine connections by embracing strength-based, trauma-informed and inclusive marketing services. Could you break that down for our listeners in a very layman terms that the average person listening could understand what all of that means?

• You embrace a framework called the three R's framework, which stands for Radical Vulnerability, Radical Empathy and Radical Transparency. So, could you first break down what each of those R's mean, what they represent, and then maybe give us an example of those in interjecting those into customer experiences.

• In your feedback just know that empathy is very, very, very different from sympathy. Have you come across persons who you find may lack the competencies or the behaviours that support empathy? And in cases like that, how do you overcome that, how do you strengthen that skill?

• Now Kat, can you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read? Either you've read a very long time ago, or even one you've read recently, but it has had a great impact on you.

• Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this code? Let's say for instance, you're faced with a challenge and obstacle or hurdle. And just speaking this quote or kind of repeating it to yourself kind of just gets you back on track, and gets you refocused to achieve whatever you're working on. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Kat’s Journey

Kat shared that she’s a marketer by trade. She has been building and rebuilding marketing organizations for brands of all shapes and sizes and industry sectors for a little over 20 years. But a huge part of her story is that she has complex PTSD. So, she’s a trauma survivor herself. And a number of years ago, she realised she was perceiving marketing messages very differently.

So, during the pandemic, she went back, and she got certification of being trauma-informed and now she’s sort of marrying her personal experiences with trauma, the certification, work and a career, lifeline time of running marketing and brands.

Establishing Connections by Embracing Strength-Based, Trauma-Informed and Inclusive Marketing Services

Me: So, could you give us an example, when I read your bio, and it stated that you are very good at encouraging your brands to establish genuine connections by embracing strength-based, trauma-informed and inclusive marketing services. Now, that sounds very high level, could you break that down for our listeners in a very layman terms that the average person listening could understand what all of that means?

Kat shared that she thinks as marketers, we were all taught and are still taught fear-based marketing, right? So, we're creating urgency with our customers, there's limited time, there's limited quantity. And repeatedly putting out messages like that, while they do help in the short term can actually be very psychologically damaging in the long term when consumers are bombarded with those kinds of messages, literally, like every second of every day.

And so, what she encourages her clients to do is use that same data, and just flipping the message a bit. And so, for an example, instead of saying, “Hey, we're almost out of x, y product, limited quantities.” You can put out messaging that says, “We know this is one of your favourite products.” So, you're switching the positioning, but you're using the same data points.

And then in terms of trauma-informed and what that looks like, the fact is that all of us have experienced some kind of trauma in our lives, particularly if you look at it through the lens of COVID where 40% of us lost someone or know someone that died during a pandemic. But it really goes through all areas of marketing. A really easy tangible example on the creative campaign side would be a brand that says, say they do a Mother's or Father’s Day campaign and then they send out a text or email that says, “Hey, we know this time of year might be tough for you, click here to opt out of our Mother's Day messaging.” And so, right there, you are showing a customer that they are seen and heard.

She knows this happened to her after her mom passed, getting bombarded with all those like Mother's Day, Mother's Day, what are you getting for your mom? What are your kids getting for you? Like all of those messages, it can be really overwhelming and triggering. But instead, putting out an empathy-based message like the example she just gave, you're still driving sales, at its most basic level, you are segmenting your customers, but you make them feel heard at the same time.

Embracing The 3 R’s Framework – Radical Vulnerability, Radical Empathy and Radical Transparency

Me: Now, could you also share with our listeners, in doing research in terms of getting you on our podcast, one of the things that we found out was that you embrace a framework called the three R's framework, which stands for Radical Vulnerability, Radical Empathy and Radical Transparency. So, could you first break down what each of those R's mean, what they represent, and then maybe give us an example of those in interjecting those into customer experiences, and navigating the whole journey of the customer, ensuring that those three R's are included, what does that look like in real life for a customer?

Kat shared that the easiest way to think about it is really in terms of brand positioning. We're all humans, whether we are the customer or setting brand side, and we make mistakes, right? So, a radically vulnerable brand will own up to those mistakes, and just be really sincere about it. She thinks that it allows brands to connect on a personal level, even though they're a company.

In terms of radical empathy, it really is, it's not sympathy, that's something very different. It's at a very internal level, saying, hey, your customers are coming from all different ethnic backgrounds or size, shapes, ages, right. And embracing that they're just a whole person, and really putting their life experiences first, which then leads to sales, instead of putting sales first, which tend to make customers kind of feel not great.

And then in terms of radical transparency, she has now started saying radical transparent investment, because companies really should be investing in their communities. But it's not just putting a park bench or doing a street clean up, it is really authentically investing in their communities. Maybe it's like training the next generation of workers, maybe is like truly getting involved in the community versus, some sort of vanity metric. And so, the three of those all kind of come together to embrace what she sees as radical customer experience.

Empathy – How to Strengthen That Skill

Me: Now, a big part of what you do is empathy. And I heard you mentioned in your feedback just know that empathy is very, very, very different from sympathy. Have you come across persons who you find may lack the competencies or the behaviours that support empathy? And in cases like that, how do you overcome that, how do you strengthen that skill?

Kat shared that she doesn't think that there are people sitting around a table thinking about how to hurt people. At least, we hope not, most of us that have been brand side are trying to think of what's best for our customers. She thinks the empathy perspective comes in is it's not really changing what you do, it's changing how you think about it. In customer experience, it’s very frequently gets viewed as pure customer support, customer experience is so much more than that.

But a key element that she thinks has always been missing as someone's life experience. And being able to have empathy like whether it's where someone came from, whether it is the holiday example she just mentioned whether or not they may have lost a parent. We're all humans. Even if you're selling, for example, B2B, when you pick up the phone and talk to somebody, you're not talking to a company, you're talking to a person and so, you they deserve to be treated like a person.

Me: Agreed, 100%.

App, Website or Tool that Kat Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Kat shared that she would say her own tool or app, which is the Cancel Culture Check-Up. But beyond that, certainly, she tends to live and breathe by LinkedIn. And some of the other communities that she’s involved in professionally. It can be really lonely being an entrepreneur and finding resources and communities wherever you can she thinks is very important.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Kat

When asked about books that have a big impact, Kat shared that she thinks one of the first authors that sort of set her down this path was Brené Brown. She didn't even know it at the time when she first read her work. Brené Brown has been so influential to her. When she first read about her and globally watched the infamous TED talk, going on 10 years ago, she had no idea that it was going to start the wheels turning to where she ended up today. But, she showed her actually what vulnerability really look like, both at work and at home and put this whole thing into motion. Absolutely.

Me: So, I know you've mentioned Brené Brown, but is there a particular book that you would want to give to our audience? Or is it all of her content you're saying just jump out there and buy them?

Kat shared that she thinks everyone needs to read absolutely everything she (Brené Brown) puts out. But she does have something that's just easy to get to. She has a couple of Netflix specials that are really easy to watch. She has a podcast where she is having really, really impactful conversations with folks. So, she highly recommends both of those.

What Kat is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Kat shared that it's somewhere in the middle. So, they are just moving out of beta for a software product that they've put together, it's called the Cancel Culture Check-Up. Basically, it's her answer to a net promoter score, which honestly gives you no real data other than how your customers feel on average at any given moment in time. But there's an assessment that's based around the three R's that she mentioned earlier. And it measures brand sensitivity, and we know that brands that are more sensitive and empathic and vulnerable, all of these things that we're talking about will have higher sales, will engage more deeply with their customers. So, she’s totally geeking out on her own data product right now. She thinks it is a huge game changer and so, so important, particularly for consumer facing brands.

Me: So, this app or solution that you're working on, are you saying that it would be in direct competition to the NPS and give greater data insight on the clients’ experience? Or how they feel about the brand?

Kat stated yes, now, someone could certainly add a Net Promoter Question. At the end of the day, net promoter is just asking whether or not your customers would recommend your product to a friend. So, someone could add that question if they are really married to the NPS, although, as she said, she thinks it's fundamentally flawed as a metric. And, she thinks what they've put together with the brand sensitivity score far outweighs any kind of the insights that you could get otherwise.

Me: Okay. Is there a question that is attached to the app that your metric would be measuring? Like, what exactly are you pulling out from the customer from your application, if you can share any insight on it at all?

Kat shared that certainly the three R's are their frame, it's what frames the assessment. But, the product rather than a net promoter score is a Brand Sensitivity Score. So, it really deep dials into everything we're talking about like empathy and vulnerability.

And just how much customers trust a brand to do what's right. And we know even anecdotally that brands that are standing up for what's right, or embracing, even things like sustainability, and diversity and inclusion, all of those things, not only are they critical, but are really instrumental in growing their customer base and growing revenue.

Me: And when can our listeners expect for that product to be available to the world?

Kat shared that she’s so glad Yanique asked because it is available today. You just have to head on over to her website, which is www.radicalcustomerexperience.com and you will see three or four tiers that are available to subscribe to.

Where Can We Find Kat Online

Website – www.radicalcustomerexperience.com

LinkedIn – Kat Kennan

Instagram – Kat Kennan

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Kat Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Kat shared that she certainly goes back to Brené Brown. And she bases it off of Teddy Roosevelt. But, “It's easy to be in the stands. It's easy to watch and poke and make fun of people and criticize them, but it's way harder to be in the arena.” And she always remember that on those particularly tough days where it just feels like she’s getting bulldozed literally that she'd so much rather be in the arena and be facing those challenges than be just sitting in the audience watching.

Me: Perfect, I remember that one from her book The Gifts of Imperfection.

Thank you so much Kat for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us today sharing about all of these great insights that your company and the initiatives that you're taking as it relates to empathy and transparency and authenticity and just really ensuring that your brands are not just about the outside of the customer experience or the vanity but more so the depth of it in terms of getting to know people, making people feel seen, making people feel heard, making people feel valued, because as you mentioned, those things will definitely lead to longer lasting customer relationships, customer loyalty and that's what I'm sure all brands are aspiring to, a high level of customer retention that your customers are with you for a lifetime. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Josefine Campbell is a founder of Campbell Company, a top leadership consulting firm for multinational companies. Campbell inspires and coaches leaders, teams, and talents in large organisations such as McDonald's, Deloitte, Maersk, Novo Nordisk, and Carlsberg Group.

Her approach combines the practical and the pragmatic. A four-time jiu-jitsu champion, she is particularly interested in developing personal leadership in difficult circumstances, such as is often the case in modern work life.

Questions

• Now Josefine, even though we read a short description about our guests, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, how you got from where you were to where you are today?

• A big part of what you do focuses on the power barometer, right. So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about that, and how it is that you are able to implement? What is the power barometer?

• Could you share with us maybe two or three approaches, tactics, tools that you can use to manage energy in work and life?

• Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read recently? Or even maybe a book that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a very big impact on you?

• Now, can you also share with us Josefine, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or demotivated, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Josefine’s Journey

Josefine shared that when she was a teenager, she was quadruple national champions in jiu-jitsu, it's Japanese martial arts. And for the last many years, she’s been coaching and developing executives, individually and in groups. And at some point in her practice, she has a background in business practice, she’s ran businesses herself, she’s been in business for plus 25 years, she’s also been teaching business school.

And at some point, quite early on actually, in her endeavour of supporting the executives that she was helping the best possible way, she realized that some of the techniques and practices that she brought with her from the jiu-jitsu practice actually had a huge effect when working with executives in modern work life, because being an executive is quite demanding, especially in modern work life, it takes a lot of energy, it requires for you to stay mentally clear under difficult circumstances, it's quite normal to be under a lot of pressure, just like as when you're in a battle, it's the same thing that happens to people when they feel threatened in a battle, and when they feel threatened at work. The circumstances might look different, but what happens inside people can be quite similar. And have you watched Karate Kid?

Me: I have, yes.

So, you remember the Mr. Miyagi? Wax on, wax off. So, he trains Karate Kid and how to be mentally agile, how to stay ready in a battle, right? So, one thing is he trains the techniques, but he also trains how he is with himself, that's a lot of the movie, remember, that's why he has to do the wax on, the wax off. And it's the same for executives, it takes a lot of personal capacity to do the work they do. So, that's how she came across the methods that she’s written about, and that she’s helped executives put into practice.

What is a Barometer?

Me: In reading a little bit about your story, I noticed a big part of what you do focuses on the power barometer, right. So, can you share with our listeners a little bit about that, and how it is that you are able to implement? What is the power barometer? Let's start there.

Josefine shared that the power barometer is an imaginary tool that anyone can apply personally, alone, individually and in teams at work. So, it's a way of checking in on your personal energy level. And checking in on your personal energy level is important because energy is the fuel of the brain. Your brain uses 20% of your personal energy, it's quite a lot because it's only the size of 3% to 4% and if you're low on energy, your brain doesn't run very well. So, if you aren't aware that, you're not capable of performing in the same way as if you have the self-awareness of where your energy is right now.

And the same thing counts for what happens in teamwork. So, one thing is that each and every one of us should take responsibility for our own personal energy, the personal energy that we bring to the table but in a meeting, everybody should take responsibility for the energy at the meeting. So, tell me, have you ever been in a meeting where someone suddenly took out all the energy of the room?

Me: Yeah, that's happened quite a few times.

And what happens to productivity in such a case? It declines? And engagements? And retention? So, performance? Does people come up with creative, innovative ideas? Do they solve difficult task when the energy is out of the room?

Not so much. So, just being aware of personal energy, start to measure it even if it's a subjective quantification, it brings awareness to energy and everybody's responsibility on the energy level. And that kind of behaviour that would bring out energy of a room suddenly becomes unwanted and for many reasons, that is good.

Tactics and Tools Can Be Used to Manage Energy in Work and Life

Me: So, it's about balancing, it's about energy, could you share with us maybe two or three approaches, tactics, tools that you can use to manage energy in work and life? Because we all have our personal life, but we also have our professional life and how do we balance having energy in both so that either area is not getting diminishing returns?

Josefine stated that if she may, because Yanique says personal and professional life, actually a point, a very important takeaway from her book is that business is personal. So, there's a difference between private and professional life, so, that's isn't opposition, there's things that happens in your weekend, within your family that's private, but and what happens at work, what do you have to do at work, it's professional, but all of it is personal because it's you as a person who goes to work. It's you as a person who is leading, collaborating, communicating, it's you and I, as people who are talking right now on this podcast, and we cannot take the personal aspect out of the equation.

So, you cannot just put away anything but personal. And that's a key point also, in you addressing the question like what can you do to keep a high personal energy level?

And, first of all, and the most important thing is to be aware, to be aware of your own personal energy level. It starts noticing when your energy is high, when it is low, most people would start to care more about it and putting more attention into raising the energy, you will also have more insights about what drains you and try to do less of that, things that gives you energy and it could be work tasks, specific work task you discover, “Oh, I get energy from this type of tasks or this type of meetings, or working with these people, but they also drain me.”

And of course, at the workplace, you cannot always decide who you are meeting with and who you're not. But those relationships which are draining, can you do something about it? This is something you can bring to the table to improve their collaboration. She knows plenty of good examples on how people have addressed bad working relationships and taking them to another level where they can do great work together. There are also situations where you have to avoid, certain collaborations, or certain tasks.

If you're in a team, understand what type of task drains and gives different team members energy. Work division might going to seem more obvious. And then there are the physical aspects, such as getting enough sleep, having a few breaks once in a while, actually just even micro breaks, a few minutes of rest. And rest is not looking at your phone, or just answering email, rest is maybe closing your eyes or leaning backwards on your chair and letting go for a minute. Just these little micro breaks, they can have a huge impact on your energy level.

We're not designed to be productive all the time. The organism, the biological human organism is designed to perform in circles, in waves, the energy, our natural energy will move upwards and downwards in iterations. So, it would be normal that you have some downtime once in a while, at least, but normal, natural, that's the difference, the normal is that people don't have any downtime.

App, Website or Tool that Josefine Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Josefine shared that she will be reluctant to say, if you go on her website, www.josefinecampbell.com, there's a section with freebies, and go there and grab whatever you think can make a difference for you. There are a couple of tools there and you can try them out, you can write me if you have any questions. And that's plug and play, go check it out, there's no software there.

Josefine shared that Microsoft Teams because all her clients use, most of her clients uses Microsoft Teams. Very often that's where they meet and engage.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Josefine

When asked about books that have had an impact, Josefine stated that that's a wonderful question. So, what to choose from? There’re so many wonderful books. She really, really loves books. Well, Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change, it's an old classic. And she thinks it was the first book on personal leadership that got really big. And it's from the 90s. So, she was pretty young back then. But she got really fascinated with the book and the content of the book, she also started her first business when she was really young. She was 21 when she started her first business.

So, she needed a lot of help, she needed guidance on how to manage herself, and she felt so much wisdom in that book. And she actually thinks it's still valid, it's old, but it still works. So, she often recommends that book, she still does.

And then she thinks Brené Brown’s Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversation. Whole Hearts, that's another great book. It's just a few years old and she thinks she took leadership books in another direction, writing a book that is very personal and that has some really nice contributions to how leadership development is being perceived today. She really thinks she made a huge difference. Thank you, Brené Brown.

What Josefine is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s really excited about, Josefine shared that there’s so much. So, obviously, there's the book which is just coming out now and she’s excited about sharing that with the world. And she has written the next one too and they're still working on the title and she’s excited about that one too. She’s written another kind of book, she’s been quite creative, and she’s also excited about finishing that one and putting that one out. So, her books are part of her passion. She gets up 5 o'clock in the morning sometimes to write just because she really feels like writing. She loves it.

Where Can We Find Josefine Online

Website – www.josefinecampbell.com

LinkedIn – Josefine Campbell

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Josefine Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Josefine shared that she have not a quote, but an image. The myth of Sisyphus, it's an old Greek myth. It's this man who is being judged by the Gods to push a rock up a hill. And every time he's up the hill, the rock is falling down, he has to push it up again. Have you ever heard that tale? Can you imagine the picture?

Me: I can imagine the picture.

So, that's that feeling of this never-ending work and that things just keeps on being tough. Just after the Second World War, there was a French philosopher Camus, who elaborated a little bit on that myth. And he pictured Sisyphus working at the stones on the mountain, as he was pushing the rock up the hill and he would see the sun sparkle in some of the stones, and it will be beautiful. And his attention and his energy, his mind, his being would direct towards the beauty of those sparkles. And that would make the rock and himself feel lighter.

And that's what she tries to do, she tries to find just that little spark, those times where it's really dark, and it's tough, and it feels like it's never going to end, though we know it's going to end, there's always light at the end of the tunnel. But sometimes it just doesn't feel like that. Then she tries to find these little sparks of light that beams in and just give a little more energy to get done whatever needs to get done.

Me: All right, perfect. Thank you so much. I guess another way to look at that is the quote, “This too shall pass.” but you've kind of transformed it into an image, which is way more impactful because then it really focuses on what can you really do to navigate that space and recognize that at the end of the day, you will overcome it, it may seem like it's going to last forever, but there is a solution somewhere down the line.

Josefine shared that, “This too shall pass.” it's a really beautiful quote. She likes that one. Another one comes to her mind, it is the quote saying, “Everything is as it's supposed to be.” Kind of give some kind of peace of mind if you don't try to fix anything, or if you don't try to struggle, if you say okay, things are as they're supposed to be, somehow, it's all going to make sense at the end of the day.

Me: It will, the puzzle will all fit. Thank you so much, Josefine, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast and sharing all of these great nuggets and insights with us, a little bit about your journey, your new book that's coming out, the importance of preserving your energy and doing things that will lead to a more productive life, a more balanced life. So, I think our listeners definitely would have gained great information, great value from what you shared with us today. So, we just want to express our appreciation for you joining us on this podcast today.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen Covey

• Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversation. Whole Hearts by Brené Brown

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Anatoliy Labinskiy is an entrepreneur, eCommerce expert, salesman, holder of 4-time Two Comma Club awards. His story is a perfect example of life when everything goes against us to become successful. In less than 5 years, he went from a simple waiter to a successful businessman and an owner of an 8 figure winner awards in the ecommerce space.

Anatoliy is the founder of GSM Growth agency that helps ecom entrepreneurs grow to 6-7 figures in revenue. He is included in the Forbes Business Council and featured as one of the Top 10 eCommerce Entrepreneurs helping people during the COVID-19 recession.

Questions

• So, we always like to start off by finding out from our guests a little bit about their journey in your own words. Could you tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

• Now along that journey that took you to where you are today, what are maybe two to three things that you believe has contributed to your success that you believe if other people employ those three skills or competencies, they will achieve success as well?

• Can you also share with us Anatoliy, in your experience, maybe two or three tips that you believe will help to enhance sales and customer service skills as an entrepreneur?

• Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or demotivated the quote kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Anatoliy’s Journey

Anatoliy shared that his journey is quite long and he will try to be as short as possible because it's a lot of factors which has brought him where he is today. But basically, back in 2013, he went to UAE Abu Dhabi with no cash and he didn't know English at all, had nothing behind him and just start working there as a like food runner, cleaning dirty plate from the restaurant but dreaming a lot as a simple Ukrainian guy that what he can have in this world when he has seen Abu Dhabi because Abu Dhabi is kind of a rich city in Arabic Emirates. So, it's something what motivates him.

And after several years of failing, finding the better work, the better opportunities in life, he got married during that time. And back in 2017, he was already renting like small master bedroom, not even apartment, small room with his wife. And his wife said to him that she is pregnant. And that day, he really was scared like never before because he has seen her how she's crying. And not because she's happy, because she was terrified, like what's going to happen with them, they don't have their own apartment, rented apartments, they just rent in the room.

And he promised to himself that he will not allow his kid to come in this world in the way where how he’s living and how he grew up with financial troubles. So, he sent his wife back to Ukraine and start like move to even smaller apartment with two bedroom apartment with 7 other people rented just the bed space to save some money and start searching for opportunities and find out what is eCommerce all about. Give it a shot, spend everything what he had, nothing workout, and style start like becoming a zombie. Because I got addicted to the ecommerce and said to himself, 99% of people are failing, because they're quitting, he will never quit, he will never give up and he will make it work and he will become the top one person who will succeed. And this is exactly what happened after several months of fail and lost everything that he had.

In February 2018, he finally got his first $8,000 in 15 days of sales in his Shopify store. And like step by step, October 2018, his first $50,000, November $150,000 and so on, so on. So, for the next couple of years, he was doing coaching of how to succeed in eCommerce. And in 2020, opened his eCommerce agency because there was a lot of requests from his students, “Can you manage ads, not with me, for me?” And he was like, “Wow, that's something interesting!” And they tested it out, one of the stores they made over $6.5 Million in two and a half years. And they were like, “Wow, that's really insane!” And in the same time when they were building all this process, they decided to switch from the mentorship to the agency side. And so, from March 2020, they are operating GSM Growth Agency and now have multiple businesses which is operating with different business partners.

Me: Wow, that's a fulsome story Anatoliy, really, really powerful.

Skills and Competencies Needed to Achieve Success

Me: Now along that journey that took you to where you are today, what are maybe two to three things that you believe has contributed to your success that you believe if other people employ those three skills or competencies, they will achieve success as well?

Anatoliy stated that it's a great question. And it's like good sounds too basic, but it is the fundamental of success. So, first of all, Never Give Up. You can turn left and right if something straight doesn't work. Like for example, he was always teaching his students that okay, if dropshipping eCommerce won't work for you, listen, in this couple of months, you've got insane experience in eCommerce industry, in Shopify, like affirmations of different processes and all marketing, find out just different sub niche in eCommerce and test it out that as well and see that maybe there you’ll get more luck with that.

So, some of the people who are listening to him that they quit on the dropshipping, but one of them actually told their partners, in couple years, come back to him and say that they now operate in email marketing agency successfully. Another person came back to him after one and half year and said, “Anatoliy, I follow your steps and now I'm living in Abu Dhabi. And he was in France before as an immigrant, and now I'm running like, YouTube automation advertising agency.”

And there is several stories like that, one person just go out as a head of marketing department position in his city, just because he was smartest guy in the room on the interview, because he just used that experience, which he got in the couple of months of mentorship. And he just implemented as like life experience to his own needs. And he became like in some local company, marketing expert and got the head of marketing department. So never give up, like adapt and try something else. This is number one thing which he would say for sure.

The second thing, You Have to Know Your Why. If your why is just finances, you just follow the cash, you will fail, you will never build a strong business, never. You will make money here and now most probably, and that's fine. But at the end, you'll stay with nothing because when you don't have your strong why, you won’t to be able to build anything sustainable, and for the long run, you're going to be just going to make quick cash and that's it.

So, think about your why, his why, for example, it was his son, when he found out that his wife is pregnant as she delivered the baby, he still haven't made anything, he lost already everything by that moment when baby has been delivered. But it was his strong why that he has no chance to lose. He have no chances to quit and his why was so strong that it was pushing him forward and it's continued pushing him because he knows that he has higher responsibilities now and kids are growing and you need universities to think about, you need schools to think about, you need to think about your own life, retirement and all that stuff. So, you're basically building your own life under your own rules, it's your why. You have to think of your why which is going to let you wake up earlier, going to sleep later, this is the second thing.

And number three, Don't Be Scared to Hire People, to Build a Team. So many people stay in as a small business owners, small intrapreneurs just because first of all, they don't want to lose the profitability, “Oh my god, if I hire him, I cannot afford it. I will lose like instead of 40% profit, I will be on 20% profit, it's not possible. No, no, no how will I pay my bills.”

They think so small and they look so straight like he’s always saying oh look wider on it. When you start looking wider on the things, you understand by hiring technical person who are going to be able to reduce the busy work from you on the technical stuff, your brain will start functionalities of how to create more business to your company. And will be a CEO of your company, chief executive officer, which is the goal is to bring more businesses to your business.

So, by hiring one more or couple of people, you will lose profitability at the beginning, you will reduce the profitability but it will allow you by having one technical person, one salesperson, it will allow you to bring more businesses and operate more customers, a salesperson will bring you more people, more clients and the technical person will be operating and managing them while you're thinking about new channels for getting more customers, for improving the skills of your employers and so on, by having this kind of team, or by having this kind of three rules in your life to follow, you will be able to grow so fast, this is what he has done.

He’s been a mentor for couple of years, and he reached his ceiling of income and I couldn't grow because he has only 24 hours a day and he’s alone, when he hires one person for testing like agency stuff and after that switch to completely agency model, they made four weeks in the first month of starting agency to compare when he was alone, that's the example. And it's always like that, don't be scared to hire a team, find your why and never give up, these three things, which he would highly recommend to follow, it simple, but it is the true.

Tips to Enhance Sales and Customer Service Skills as an Entrepreneur

Me: Can you also share with us Anatoliy, in your experience, maybe two or three tips that you believe will help to enhance sales and customer service skills as an entrepreneur? What are some of the things that you've done to enhance customer service to deliver that amazing, fantastic experience that your customers want to come back, not just buy from you once, but come back again and again?

Anatoliy stated that it's a great question. Because he will tell you honestly, result in great customer service, your company will not survive as well. Like if you don't have a goal in life, and if you don't have a customer service in company, as it is good customer service. So, by that being said, by working in eCommerce, they are not dealing with people straight away, face to face, they are dealing online and online to make the person calm, it's harder than you are face to face with them on the phone, because they don't see your reactions, they don't see who you are, they don't feel the emotions, they are just angry and you need to deal with that by using the right words and right techniques.

So, he’s really grateful for his past experience being a waiter in back in 2014, 2015, 2016. Like in Dubai, he moved from Abu Dhabi to Dubai, where he got to experience in the top Italian restaurants of Abu Dhabi. And after that top Italian restaurant in Dubai, where he learned a lot of customer service tactics and sales tactics, how to sell someone who is already full, how to sell dessert or coffee, or how to sell $3,000 wine, it is storytelling, and it is a great language, how to produce the right wipes that person would love to buy from you and come back again because they enjoy the service.

So, by that being said, when he started coaching, he got 100% of success in terms of customer service by implementing exactly the same structure. Even if it wasn't work for person, he never got anyone left him with angry face, even if they were not satisfied with something after conversation with him and customer service, which he provided during the journey, they were leaving with smile and wishing him all the best.

So, when he opened the agency, he was training his company, his team, it being him. So, he was sharing with them all the golden nuggets and all his experience, how to speak with their customers for buying from website, clients for using their service in the agency and so on. So, one of the tactics which he learned so now he coming to the answer. It was just a story before.

You're supposed to always introduce yourself as a middleman. What does it mean?

Even if you're CEO of your company, you're proud of it, and you want to show that yeah, I'm a decision maker. I'm the main guy here, I'm the main lady here and I'm going to be making decision if I will give you a discount, refund, will solve your problem or no, then this person will know that it will become even matter because okay, this is the guy who I will screw now, who I will get paid from. So, in our industry, very important, do not allow this to happen. So, that's why.

Usually how it works, he will give you an example of like email marketing when speaking to someone who just purchased from you and they said, “Hey, it's the wrong size” or like, “Hey, I changed my mind, I want blue not red t shirt, and it's already on the way so it's already shipped, it's not possible to be done.” You can provide discount, but not exchange only if they will return the item.

So, basically, how to handle that, are you introduce yourself let's say, “My name is Misty, I'm a customer service specialist in the XYZ store. I'm here to support you with any kind of questions which you have. I have noticed that you send it to us these kinds of requests.” And obviously asking for tracking number, this is one of the parts of their business, but the main point, you introduce yourself not as an authority, you introduce yourself as a customer service specialist, who is not responsible for decision making.

And saying, “Please clarify for me all the details of your problem. And I will do my best to forward that to the top management and ask them to support you in this situation. And again, I'm not making any decisions but I know that your case completely can be managed in somehow and I will be fighting for you because I feel what is going on. I feel your pain. I feel what you're saying.” use these kinds of words, it makes people calm. It makes people feeling that someone is taking care of them.

And it's good to implementable even better in the local shop, in the local business because when you are saying to them, even they know that you're the one they stand face to face to but you're saying and they say, “Oh my god, you paint my car and my car looks disaster. Give my $3,000 back. I want refund.” And you know that it's not possible but maybe you can give some small, we refund that they will be happier but if you will be decision maker in front of them, they will squeeze you. But if you say, “Hey, I completely understand what you're saying, oh my god, really, it's never happened before. But I'm here to help you out. Even you know that I'm the owner of the place. But the thing is that we have a structure. We have an accounting department, we have lawyers, we have agreements which has been signed, I need to figure it out how I can help you out to overtake all those bit of variety of stuff, and making sure that I will be able to provide you the best possible solution. Are you with me with that?”

And this person is feeling like, “Oh my god, he's awesome.” He’s pointed out he’s the owner, but he’s not able to help because there is several bureaucratic steps, which he needs to take over and find out the solution. But he’s more than sure that by his personal approach, he'll find out the best possible option. But even you pointed out that you need to go through the heads and finding out, they know that decision maker somewhere there. And you'll come back in some time if it's locally on the phone or in the mail and saying, “Hey, I just spoke to the management and as I said to you, we have a like non-refundable agreement which just has been signed, but listen, I was talking to them and I was really pushing them hard to make the things different. That's why I made it happen and my pressure allows me to squeeze this deal as much as possible and they agreed to give you a full refund of your request by 20% of the deal which you have made let's say $3,000 painting the car it's like 20% $600 plus you can receive from us XYZ in the future, so all it depends on your business.”

App, Website or Tool that Anatoliy Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Anatoliy shared that because his business is online, they use advertising platforms such as Facebook, TikTok, Google. So, Shopify, he would say in his particular direction, right now, if they will lose Shopify, it will be huge trouble for the company, because they don't have business. All of their customers on Shopify stores. But since he’s living in eCommerce direction, they have a lot of alternatives, which is WooCommerce, Corra, a lot of different alternatives so they'll switch their direction and move there.

But he would say it's will affect them a lot the same, like if Facebook won't work, they'll have Tik Tok, Tik Tok not work, they have Google. So, they have different options of the softwares to exchange in case something is happening, but different tools. But seriously, like if Shopify goes down, it's definitely will hold their business for a while to fix the problem.

What Anatoliy is Really Excited About Now!

Anatoliy shared that he would say that right now, they have two new directions, which is he’s really excited about to grow them. And one is his personal and one is about the team, and he’s excited to bring that to his team as fast as possible and get results because it will be new era for his team of the interesting projects.

So, first one is for the company for the team, it's like IUL telesales mastery direction, which is for the insurance agents who are dealing with the insurance packages for nurses for life insurance. And it's incredible valuable product which is they are teaching them, they have a 20 years plus coach with 23 year plus experienced coaches who are going to be coaching those salespeople how to sell successfully life insurance for a particular niche, like a nurse's niche. But it is useful for nurses because they won't be paying taxes from their retirement when they retire and their insurance will be there.

With these kinds of IUL insurance, they will be able to save all the cost on taxes and avoid pay taxes legally and build their bigger wealth for the retirement process in the future. So, it's like super useful product for the end user and super cool and powerful product for the insurance agents. So, this is something that he’s excited to bring in the mass from the company side as a different project.

And something personal, which is he’s like really cannot sleep and excited every single day. It was back in 2017, eCommerce, the same work he’s now excited about this one for himself. It's a real estate investments in Section 8, so they are buying houses in bad shape, doing full rehab and providing for the Section 8 people like rental agreements with the government and provided for the Section 8 people who are having low income, not able to rent by themselves be signing contracts with the government and providing them the place to live and it's not the cheapest or bad shape houses, they are actually going to be doing full rehab and these kinds of people can live in the normal condition house and build their life in the way how they wish to.

So, it's super useful for the end user who are going to be staying there as a tenant. And it's a great business model since they're going to be dealing with the government and getting the consistent cash flow from the government checks. So, providing the place where to live physical conditions for people. And so, growing business there, it's one of the incredible things which just makes him excited like never before.

Where Can We Find Anatoliy Online

Instagram - @ecombyanatoliy

YouTube – Anatoliy Labinskiy E-com business encyclopedia

Website – www.gsmgrowthagency.com

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anatoliylabinskiy/

Ecom Business Stream Podcast - https://linktr.ee/ecombusinessstream

Want to Boost Your Sales? Start Creating Killer Ad Copy Today! Fill out the form and get our $97 eBook for FREE 👉 https://bit.ly/40ZQlg1 🚀

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Anatoliy Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Anatoliy shared that he has one, “No matter what's happening in life, we are always able to manage.” He proved that to himself 1000s of times, and whatever was happening in life and what looks like it cannot be managed, it's not possible to fix. They were fixing, they were managed and they will always move forward. Everything is manageable guys. So, if you're in struggle right now in a bad condition, in a bad situation, remember, you always can change that for better. Just start searching for solution, solutions always there.

Me: Thank you so much, Anatoly. So, just want to remind our listeners that you can follow us on Twitter @navigatingCX and feel free to join our Private Facebook group @navigatingthecustomerexperiencecommunity.

Thank you so much, Anatoliy for joining us here today on this podcast, taking time out of your very busy schedule and sharing all of these great insights about your journey, about tips that you've learned. I'm sure that our listeners would have gained great value from what you shared with us and hopefully, there's a few nuggets in there that they can take back and apply in their day to day interactions either on a professional level or on a personal level. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Leslie Pagel is the Chief Evangelist of Authenticx - a conversation analytics company dedicated to improving the way healthcare companies engage with patients. In this role, she creates awareness across the healthcare industry of more efficient and effective ways for healthcare organizations to deliver on their customer objectives.

With over two decades of working with customer experience teams, Leslie helps clients actualize the voice of the patient to show how these voices prompt meaningful action.

Questions

• We always like to start off by asking our guests to share a little bit about their journey. Could you share with our audience a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

• What has your experience been I would say, let's use maybe the last 12 to 24 months, as it relates to what customers are expecting. You mentioned conversational AI as a way to do the data collection and less reliance on surveys. But what have the customers been saying? What are some of the trends that you've been seeing emerging? What are customers really looking for?

• So, in terms of using conversational AI to be a better listening tool with customers, right? Could you share maybe an example, a real-life example for our listeners, that you've seen the conversational AI work in such an impactful way that it transformed somebody's life or group of people's lives?

• What's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with us one or two books that have had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Before we wrap our interviews up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, it kind of helps to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Leslie’s Journey

Leslie shared that her journey in customer experience started over 25 years ago before CX in customer experience was even a thing. She spent 20 years working with large global, primarily business to business organizations on a new strategy for creating competitive differentiation. And that strategy was the customer experience. And over the past several decades companies have grown to create a boardroom conversation around customer experience, because it is a very productive and effective differentiation strategy.

What we see over the over the decades is the pace of innovation has continued to accelerate, which makes it really hard for companies to compete on product alone or services alone and no one wants to compete on price, so companies were looking for new ways of differentiating in the market and they turn to customer experience. And so, she spent 20 years, the first 20 years of her career working with companies on their customer experience strategy, which largely was informed from traditional or historical methods of customer listening through large survey programmes, Net Promoter Score programmes, customer satisfaction programmes.

And as technology has evolved and artificial intelligence has become more mainstream, we're seeing a new method that companies are leveraging for listening to their customers, which then informs their customer experience strategy and that's conversational AI. So, when you take a historical look at customer experience listening or measurement, you see that the way that we capture customer input has changed, but what we capture and listen to hasn't, we're still very survey dependent.

And in the last two years, she’s been really focusing on helping business leaders realize a different source of customer insight and that source is not survey data, that source are the conversations that customers are having every day with businesses when they've reached out to ask questions, when they reach out to make purchases, when they reach out to use the website, customers are interacting in moments. And companies have an opportunity to listen into those moments and the technology exists.

So, spent her entire career in customer experience is evolved more into a role today of helping leaders really listen to the moments of customer interactions instead of relying on survey data to keep their finger on the pulse of their customers.

Using Conversational AI for Data Collection – What Are Customers Really Looking For?

Me: So, you have quite a wealth of experience in that area. Now you're primarily in the healthcare space, right?

Leslie stated that she is now, prior to working with Authenticx, she worked across industries, primarily focused on B2B. But then have over the past 5 years been really focused within the healthcare industry, working with payers, providers, being doctors, and pharmaceutical, manufacturers, pharmacies, and in that realm of healthcare.

Me: What has your experience been I would say, let's use maybe the last 12 to 24 months, as it relates to what customers are expecting. You mentioned conversational AI as a way to do the data collection and less reliance on surveys. But what have the customers been saying? What are some of the trends that you've been seeing emerging? What are customers really looking for?

Leslie shared that she would say, and this hasn't changed over the past 12 to 15 months, they've been saying this for decades. But customers, they are saying to the organizations that they do business with that one of the best ways of demonstrating care and concern for the customer. And by the way, in healthcare, caring and concern is essential in that customer experience. But customers have been saying that the best way to show me that you care about me is to listen to me, and to show me that you're listening to me by hearing what I'm saying and taking ownership of it and driving action in the business.

So that's nothing new, that's been there for decades. The other thing that's not unique to healthcare, you can see it in any business is eliminating friction from the journey. But in healthcare, friction in the journey means a lot more, it means delayed care, it means not getting access to the care that you need. So, really looking at pockets where there is friction, and that friction is impacting the patient in their ability to get the care that we need. And that also impacts business and business outcomes as well.

Me: Indeed, because at the end of the day, you're trying to build trust and loyalty and a higher level of retention. And if you're not getting what you're looking for, then they're probably not going to come back, especially if they have options.

Leslie agreed exactly. And there are a lot of options out there, that's kind of why leaders turn to the customer experience to differentiate as companies are innovating fast, your product doesn't stand alone anymore. And so, they are looking towards other ways of building loyalty and the experiences is the way that is where they're turning.

The Impact of Using Conversational IA

Me: So, in terms of using conversational AI to be a better listening tool with customers, right? Could you share maybe an example, a real-life example for our listeners, that you've seen the conversational AI work in such an impactful way that it transformed somebody's life or group of people's lives?

Leslie stated that the example that comes to mind immediately is they are working with a hospital system, and this isn't unique to hospitals across healthcare, there's a lot of focus on social determinants of health because social determinants research has found that social determinants have more of an impact on our health and wellness than healthcare itself. And so, there's a lot of focus across healthcare organizations on understanding social determinants of health and helping patients overcome those.

And so, they do work with a hospital system and one of the questions that they asked them to explore in their conversational data was related to scheduling and why are there no shows? Or why are there reschedules? And one of the things that they found in studying just a single topic of scheduling appointments was that social determinants of health in 14% of those interactions were having an impact on getting to care, getting to the care that they need, they were impacting, rescheduling or missed appointments, as well.

So, this hospital system through that learning, one, has a different appreciation and understanding when someone is calling in to reschedule, that it might not necessarily be because they're not feeling good, it could be because their caregiver didn't show up and they can't get to the appointment, or they're working three jobs and they're not able to get time off.

So, through that insight, they have been working with their frontline staff to one, help in those interactions when someone is calling around a scheduling appointment or rescheduling to offer services that might help that patient in need. But they're also taking their insights that they've learned to the broader community perspective as well.

Me: All right, so that's data driven decisions there for sure that would help them to enhance the journey of the customer.

Leslie agreed, absolutely.

App, Website or Tool that Leslie Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she cannot live without in her business, Leslie stated that there's so many tools and resources that she uses every day. She would say for the work that she does at Authenticx, which one of the things that she does is to take the bird's eye view of all of the healthcare landscape and all of the conversations that are coming through their platform and listen more at an industry level and macro level.

And she relies on their own software to enable that perspective. So, that's one of the things that she wouldn't be able to do her job if she didn't have Authenticx because it's allowing her to listen at scale. This year, they'll have over 200 million healthcare conversations coming in through their platform, yes, 200 million.

And there's no way they would be able to understand that data at scale, a human can't do that at scale. And so, she relies personally on their platform to allow herself and their team to do the research that they do to help the healthcare industry at a macro level. So, that's one she would say.

More on like a personal professional side of it, LinkedIn comes to mind. She relies on LinkedIn to help spread the word to help open the eyes of what they're doing and how conversational AI is being leveraged in healthcare to drive outcomes, to drive business outcomes. So, that's another one that's more kind of on a personal professional side that comes to mind as well.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Leslie

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Leslie stated that she doesn't have the tattoo but if she were going to get a tattoo of a book, it would be this one it’s called Conscious Capitalism, With a New Preface by the Authors: Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business. Leslie stated that if she was at a networking event, chances are before they were done talking, she would talk about Conscious Capitalism. Conscious Capitalism is a book, but it is a book that articulates a business strategy, that is a proven business strategy with outcomes that benefit, not just the company in terms of profits, but also benefit humanity and help elevate humanity. And there's some principles in Conscious Capitalism as a business strategy that really resonates with her and that drive how she shows up in the world, both professionally and personally.

And some of those are really that for business, purpose, and profit must co-exist. We can't just focus on driving profit without purpose, and we won't have a company if we don't have profit. But the two of those must coexist, it really is the essence of the responsibility of business is to have a higher purpose, and to generate profit for the company, for the employees, and to be able to invest back in the organization for growth, for customers.

The other thing that really resonates with Conscious Capitalism is more of a shift in mindset from short term gains to long term gains, particularly publicly held companies are very focused on the here and the now and they think of the longer term opportunities and Conscious Capitalism is really more about focusing on the long term vision and outcomes and driving decisions in the here and now based on the vision and where the organization is going in the future. So, that would be her one book, Conscious Capitalism.

What Leslie is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something she is really excited about, Leslie stated that she would say the thing that she’s really excited about is, she feels like where conversational AI today is it's not known or understood. And so, the thing that she’s really excited about is helping organizations and particularly healthcare organizations understand what conversational AI is, and understand how they can leverage it to drive business outcomes and patient outcomes.

And so, they've got several things coming up that they're working on to help kind of spread the word. One is next, next month, they're going to bring together healthcare leaders from across all verticals, to their headquarters city in Indianapolis, Indiana, and have conversation around best practices for leveraging and listening to the voice of the customer. They're going to have conversation around the challenges that are present within the healthcare industry.

So, she’s really excited about that. One of the things that they know, in their work is that when they really listen to customers, they'll guide the way and they're bringing their clients and other healthcare leaders together for purposes of listening, so they can help them guide the way and they can help them achieve the outcomes that they're looking for their business and for their customers.

Where Can We Find Leslie Online

LinkedIn – Leslie Pagel

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Leslie Uses

When asked about a quote or saying to she tends to revert to, Leslie stated that she doesn't know who to credit for this quote, but she guesses it's more of a mindset and that mindset is to, “Focus more on others than to focus on yourself.” And it's not to say that focusing on herself isn't important, because it is and that's very intentional in her life. But when she’s in a place of struggle, or kind of not feeling it, just reminding herself of focusing on others more than she focus on yourself is something that really helps her redirect her attention and re-engage in the work that she’s here to do.

Me: All right, perfect. And I think that's even more relevant, that quote that you just shared, especially for the industry that you are in, because when it comes to healthcare, people usually are reaching out to organizations, or hospitals or clinics or doctor's offices because they need help, they're in pain, they're experiencing something that they're uncomfortable with and they need help. So, at that point, it's not about you, it's about them. So, that's a really good quote I think to have and to kind of remind yourself about, especially in the space that you're operating in.

Leslie agreed, exactly.

Me: Well, thank you so much, Leslie, for coming on to our podcast and sharing all of these great insights about the voice of the customer and the importance of listening. I think even as simple as it sounds, and as you mentioned, it's something that customers have want for decades, not just in the last 12 to 24 months, that we really should pay attention to the opportunities that we have, and that the greater tool that exists is conversational AI, and there are ways that we can integrate it into our everyday activities so that we can get a better understanding of what our customers are looking for. And that way we can really deliver that amazing experience that can hopefully help them to return again and again, and bring their friends and family, although we want them all to be healthy and be good and well.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• Conscious Capitalism, With a New Preface by the Authors: Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business by John Mackey

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Tom Martin is the CEO at Glance, a CX and contact center strategist, product lifecycle expert, and partnership builder. Tom has led Glance through a successful “pivot,” transitioning from a small business screen share tool to a provider of omnichannel visual engagement solutions for some of the largest enterprises in the world.

Since that pivot, Glance has experienced multiple years of 70% year on year growth. Prior to joining Glance in 2013, Tom spent over a decade at Verizon building and managing strategic partnerships. Outside of the office, Tom is an avid backcountry skier, mountaineer and competitive cyclist.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey, how you got to where you are today.

• Now, could you tell our audience a little bit about Glance and what it is that your company does?

• Can you share with our listeners a little bit about how it is that you can still integrate personal experiences or personal connection with emotion even though we have so much of our connectivity being done in a digital space.

• What is your view on empathy? And do you believe everyone has the ability to exercise it? And if not, what are some tools that you believe can help to strengthen that particular competence in a team member?

• Can you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• Could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or demotivated, this quote will help to get you back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Tom’s Journey

Tom shared that he’s always been fascinated with people which drew him down the path of really understanding what people like, how people buy, he cuts deep into sales and marketing early in his day. And no matter what he was doing, he was always interested to understand how to connect with other people. And the part of like connecting with other people, as you realize that as we have moved from business where we were always together, like you walked into a store you connected with people, you learned a lot of information when someone walks through the door. If you're in a clothing store, you could size them up and be like that person's this size jacket. And you could also recognize all the other cues.

It could be like Valentine's day or the day before, and a gentleman walking in and he's in the women's section. There's all that context that you get. So, you understand, like the challenges that businesses today have when you start to move, sometimes completely into the digital realm.

And so, it's sort of been an area of focus of his, throughout his career, just understanding people. And in today's landscape of customer experiences, where the battleground is no longer a product, it's really the experience that people have.

About Glance and What Your Company Does?

Tom shared that they are a in-brand collaboration platform that brings real human beings into a digital space, to be able to provide that personal connection at just the right moment. And that translates into thinking about any type of a journey that a customer is doing, where it could be better served by bringing a human being in, so many people have become more digital native and of course, the familiarity of digital tools has skyrocketed with the pandemic because people, that was the only modality that they had.

But now you realize that, instead of thinking about how do I actually do something, it now comes down to what advice do I need to complete something. And can I reach out to get advice, guidance from someone who can help me understand the inner workings of something, demystified fees, whatever it might be. And that's what they focused on doing is really bringing the digital and the human elements together.

Integrating Personal Experiences or Personal Connection with Emotion Even Though Our Connectivity is Being Done in a Digital Space

Me: So, that's what Glance is all about. Now, at the beginning when you were explaining about your personal journey, how you got to where you are today, you mentioned something that piqued my interest, which was the connection that you make with someone, really getting to know that individual and connecting on a personal level.

Now, a big part of customer experience, I believe is an emotional connection that you have with someone and I do believe people buy from organizations that they like and love, and there's some emotion that's there that's driving them to want to do business with that organization.

Can you share with our listeners a little bit about how it is that you can still integrate personal experiences or personal connection with emotion even though we have so much of our connectivity being done in a digital space?

Tom shared that the things that we talk about today and also where things are headed, that are going to be supported by technology is recognizing that today….customers are forced to really be in the driver's seat to go down in many of the different channels.

And many times, if you ask someone, have you had a good experience with a chatbot?

If it's outside of something that's very simple, like, what are your hours of operation, oftentimes leads them to switching channels to get somewhere else. And when you think about the emotional component and realizing that if we're able to meet the customer where they are versus forcing the customer to go through many different channels to find out that they can't get what they need done, either abandoned, or they come up with another channel, like making a phone call that maybe goes into a centre, or into a store.

And the part about like emotion is realizing that, what if we want to insert the human being into the journey at a certain spot, or maybe in a couple different spots, where you can provide that level of connection or empathy really demonstrating genuine care and understanding towards the customers’ needs and concerns.

And the part of what we've experienced over the past number of years is this idea of we need to deflect away from those channels because they're inefficient. But we also recognise that while digital is becoming better at getting information, at helping people through certain workflows, there are moments in a journey where, “If I could just talk with you to be able to understand something to help me make a decision.”

Because oftentimes, you think about what a bot can do, it's going to be doing things based on information it knows. And many people don't necessarily want to share everything about their personal life, they're going to hold it guarded until they actually speak with someone to say, “Hey, this is what my situation is, is this going to meet my needs? Is this going to help me live my best life? Should I go and get this mortgage.”

And so, emotion has a bunch of different components and he thinks of how Forrester thinks about these things, empathy being the most important part, but also having bankers or agents or specialists, be able to not just combine the empathy, but also be given the empowerment to actually solve a problem.

And today, there's a lot of focus on things like personalization, really tailoring interactions to meet a specific customer's preferences and expectations. And also realizing that people take the shortest path, like water, they take the path of least resistance.

And so, finding ways that we can delight a customer, how we can simplify the process and oftentimes, once you get so far, being able to connect with someone, you realize that wow, I am interacting with a real business, with real people, and he likes to say that people want to do business with people that they know, like, and trust, it's an important aspect.

And when he’s connecting with you, and he goes, “Gosh, I can have a personal connection with you, I can now have a better relationship with the business because you're now representing the business, you might be better representing the product or service that I'm buying.” And so, it becomes multi-dimensional when you're able to connect with a human being not just personal one on one, but it just changes your view of the business.

Me: Agreed. And so, the human connection is even more important now I believe as you were mentioning just now, different interactions that customers have with a business, because then they feel more connected to that business, they feel like somebody's actually listening to them and they're being heard.

Tom agreed and stated that he thinks one of the challenges that businesses today are facing is really going forward is how to infuse that human element into the digital experience and realizing that it's not a oh, digital failed, now we're going to go to a human being. It's how do we bring these things together so that while we're in that immersive experience, while we're in the digital channel, you suddenly have multiple modalities.

And as we start to think about data, and when businesses start to go, oh, yeah, we have a lot of data, but then it becomes, wow, the data lives in so many different places, how do we organize it? And how do we actually take information and insights that suddenly become actionable?

For many businesses, they realise, “Wow, we have some work to do, there's some homework, there some clean-up, there's things that we need to do.” But when you start to think about understanding what your customers are doing, and you can design an action, a journey, an experience for a customer that's informed by data that suddenly says, “You know what, we're going to create that the high speed lane on the highway, we're going to clear all the clutter.”

Because many times when you interface with a business, it's almost like a labyrinth, someone designed these things, you have to go left or right, straight, backwards, it feels like and you realize that they were designed for a variety of different things that require clicks and navigating through different things. But what if that data and some of the design informs a better journey that streamline saves you time, that gets you just what you need, and brings the human being into it? He thinks that's really the future of where we're headed, there's a lot of work to be done to get there.

What is Empathy? And Tools That Can Help Strengthen Empathy in a Team Member

Me: Agreed. So, you also mentioned in your explanation of personal connection, empathy and it's definitely something I believe that is critical for customer experience, especially for organizations, you have some industries that need empathy more than others, I do believe every industry needs it. But I think some needed even more, for example, like the healthcare industry, but what I wanted was your insight as a CEO, you sit at the top, I'm sure you integrate with your team members at all different levels, but it's important to kind of hear from the leader of an organization, what is your view on empathy? And do you believe everyone has the ability to exercise it? And if not, what are some tools that you believe can help to strengthen that particular competence in a team member?

Tom stated that it's a really important piece. And he does think empathy is something that you can lead with, it's almost similar to like a value that they have there in the company, which is like assuming positive intent. But having empathy, which is, can you walk a few steps in the other person's shoes, the customer’s shoes or a colleague, and he thinks there are people that are higher on the they'll call it the EA spectrum that they just have a higher sort of emotional quotient, EQ is the phrase.

And he thinks the part that we're starting to see is, what if there are things that can fall into the category of having information that based on the conversation that is being had, you can have tips and tricks, you can have information that's being done. And this is where technology, imagine natural language translation is working to listen to the conversation and is helping coach the specialist to have a better conversation. It can listen for tone, it's doing the translation on the actual words, and can bring information in to the conversation to recommend to the specialist how to have a better conversation.

And part of empathy is demonstrating that genuine care, but also, it falls short, if you're not empowering the people that are delivering the empathy. Because empathy without empowerment can work in the opposite direction, it can actually be kind of like a falsehood. You say you're sorry, but you're not willing to actually do anything to help me out and so you really need to couple those things together, and be able to solve problems, to be able to get the customer where they need to go as efficiently as possible.

App, Website or Tool that Tom Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Tom shared that the thing that he finds with modern day smartphones, is probably he can't live without his smartphone more than anything because he suddenly have access to all the different systems personally at his fingertips. His business phone can ring, he has access into things that need to be HR or finance for approvals. But he feels like we're now in this world where mobility has created this opportunity to be connected wherever you need to be connected. He knows that's a bit of an overarching statement, but he feels like the mobile device has really become a game changer for so many people in business because it gives you access and information at your fingertips.

Me: All right, so your mobile phone is your tool. All right, love it.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Tom

When asked about books that have a great impact, Tom shared that one that he read a long time ago that he still thinks today is amazing. An author who we see in the New Yorker, Atul Gawande, he wrote a book called The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right. And it really went through a process of just understanding what are the things that need to be done, and he speaks from the voice of a surgeon and thinking about performing surgery on someone, and to have the right outcomes, there's a checklist, and there's so many things within a business that can be assisted and aided and improved by doing things around a checklist.

Another book that he just finished that he really liked is 10x Is Easier Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan, and the concept of that is pretty simple, in that 2x is very easy to see, you and I can say, “Oh gosh, we need to do 2x more.” It's just a matter of like working harder, a few things that you streamline, but it's something that you can see how to achieve 2x. To achieve 10x, oftentimes, you have to say, “Gosh, we're going to have to do a lot of things differently. And first and foremost, we're going to have to stop doing a lot of things.”

Because to 10x isn't to say we're going to 10x everything, it's one of the most important things we're going to 10x and it means that all the other things don't matter as much. In fact, some of those things can be eliminated, stopped, it can be deferred, you can hand it off to someone else to do but it's really about how to think about 10xing anything, your personal life, your business.

And if you think about the 80/20 principle, it can be applied in so many different ways. You really think about saying, “Gosh, to 10x, I've got to put 100% of my energy on the 20% of my life or my business, which means I've got to figure out how to deal with removing that 80% that gives me that 10x leap.”

And then the last one, this is a fun one. He bought this for his daughters, Kevin Kelly, one of the founders of Wired Magazine, it came out in the beginning of May. Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier. He loves this book, it's something that you can open up every day and get a little seed that can grow an idea in your head, it's a fun little book to have on the side of his desk.

What Tom is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Tom shared that probably the thing that's the most exciting is something that, you think about the parts of any type of business, they've spent so much time really thinking about how do they build great experiences, but what people want to know more than anything else, is when and where should we have those great experiences. And the part of that is to understand where people need help. And there's a piece of this, which is realizing that oftentimes people and human beings want to be able to do things and they don't necessarily rely on or can understand all the information, all the cues.

And so, if they as a company can figure out how to help businesses know when and where to have experiences that can transform how they compete, and how they deliver an exceptional experience that really puts them at the forefront of where they're going as a business.

And in doing that, a lot of this work that they're doing is really informed by taking a more data centric approach. And so, they're spending a fair amount of time really rethinking how we look at things. They've always looked at them through a few sets of lenses and now they're really taking a step back and saying, “You know what, we're going to look at the same thing. But we're going to look at it through a different set of lenses to really rethink how we approach those things.”

Because oftentimes, inexperience happens because a lot of other things have informed that experience as to like when and where it happens, didn't just happen. It happened because of a lot of other things. And if they can understand what the best things are, then they can inform more frequently and consistently how to have them to deliver the right outcomes.

Where Can We Find Peter Online

LinkedIn – Thos Martin

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Tom Uses

When asked about quote that he tends to revert to, Tom shared that there's a quote from Scott Peck. And he’s also thinking about one other one, but the one from Scott Peck is pretty simple, and it rings true. But when you talk about adversity, the quote is, “Life is difficult. This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. And it's a great truth because once we truly see this truth, we transcend it. Once we truly know that life is difficult, once we truly understand it and accept it, then it no longer becomes difficult.”

And so, as you realize that there's another part of this about optimism, optimists view challenges and hardship as temporary things that can be overcome. And so, he’s a big believer in optimism because to get anywhere, you must first imagine it, you must first dream it and then you can work towards that dream. And then that dream can become a reality. And it doesn't mean that there aren't going to be challenges or pitfalls along the way, but you recognize that if you believe that those things are only temporary, you can continue to thrive.

So, we want to thank you so much, Tom, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and coming on this podcast, sharing all of this great information, what your company does Glance, your views as it relates to creating that personal connection, ensuring that the digital is interceding in a very great way with the human connection, because both need to work together in order to deliver that fantastic, exceptional experience that we want our customers to have. And of course, to be very intentional about designing that experience in a way that our customers actually value the efforts and the experience that we've created for them.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

• The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right by Atul Gawande

• 10x Is Easier Than 2x: How World-Class Entrepreneurs Achieve More by Doing Less by Dan Sullivan

• Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdon I Wish I’d Known Earlier by Kevin Kelly

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View Details

Joey Coleman helps companies keep their customers and employees. As an award-winning speaker, he shares his first 100 Days® methodology for improving customer and employee retention with organizations around the world, for example, Whirlpool, Volkswagen Australia and Zappos.

His Wall Street Journal #2 best-selling book, Never Lose a Customer Again: Turn Any Sale into Lifelong Loyalty in 100 Days, shows how to turn any sale into a lifelong customer. And his upcoming book, Never Lose an Employee Again: The Simple Path to Remarkable Rention, details a framework companies around the world can use to reduce turnover and increase employee engagement.

Questions

• Could you tell us a little bit about that book – (Never Lose a Customer Again)? And then we can go into the new one that you recently launched.

• And your book (Never Lose an Employee Again) focuses on the phases that you should use to try and retain these employees. And those phases are Assess, Accept, Affirm, Activate, Acclimate, Accomplish, Adopt and Advocate. So, can you just give us maybe a brief summary on each of those and why it's relevant?

• Could you share with us what are some of your favourite things you've seen brands do to create the kind of culture that you're talking about where employees are advocates?

• What is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read, could be books that you read like a long time ago, or even ones that you've read recently, but they have had a great impact on you.

• Now can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, Joey, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed or demotivated, it kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

About Joey’s Books – Never Lose a Customer Again & Never Lose an Employee Again

Me: So, let's start off with a little bit about your first book, Never Lose a Customer Again, for those of our listeners that may have just recently started listening to our podcasts and unfortunately weren't able to tap into that awesome episode. Could you tell us a little bit about that book? And then we can go into the new one that you recently launched.

Joey shared that so about 5 years ago, he wrote a book called Never Lose a Customer Again: Turn Any Sale into Lifelong Loyalty in 100 Days. And the premise of this book is that we spend so much time trying to find new customers that we forget to pay attention to the customers that we've already acquired, people who have already raised their hand and said, “I want to do business with you.” The premise of that book is based on some staggering research that they both did, and came across that showed that somewhere between 20% and 70% of new customers will decide to stop doing business with you before the 100 day anniversary of becoming a customer.

So, as quickly as you're bringing customers in the front door, they're running out the back door. And the book outlines a framework that's based on 20 plus years of his experience as a consultant and speaker and agency owner. And it outlines a framework for how do we navigate our customer through eight phases of a journey, where we're creating the kind of remarkable experiences that will keep them coming back for more.

Me: Alright, so before we actually started the official recording, you and I were kind of having an informal discussion as it relates to employee experience and your new book, Never Lose an Employee Again: The Simple Path to Remarkable Rention, really focuses on what are some strategies, what are some tools, you've provided us with a great framework as to how it is that organizations can keep talent that is really impactful to the organization and they won't leave, because at the end of the day, the employees grow, the company grows. So, can you tell us a little bit about this book? And then I have some more specific questions I want to ask you based on my own reading as well.

Joey shared that he often thinks of customer experience and employee experience as being two sides of the same coin. We can't expect to have a remarkable experience for our customers if our employees aren't delivering that remarkable experience.

And the way our employees deliver remarkable experience is they have a context for what that is and they have a framework for how to continue to deliver that to the people they serve. Interestingly enough, when he set out to write this book, he had that first 100 days research from his first book in mind, and when he went and looked at the parallels in the world of employee experience, he found that they were shockingly similar, that same significant percentage of people who leave as a new customer in the first 100 days was mirrored in the world of employees who start a new job, and then quit that job before the 100 day anniversary.

In fact, depending on which research you looked at, it was again somewhere between 20% and 70%. And these numbers he found to be absolutely staggering. He thinks many organizations have felt the pain of an employee leaving, but very few organizations are paying attention to the speed at which employees are leaving, and the myriad reasons why employees are leaving so that we can hopefully develop frameworks and structures and philosophies and methodologies that will keep our employees engaged and retained for the long term.

Never Lose an Employee Again – Phases You Should Use to Try and Retain Employees

Me: Yes, and your book (Never Lose an Employee Again) focuses on the phases that you should use to try and retain these employees. And those phases are Assess, Accept, Affirm, Activate, Acclimate, Accomplish, Adopt and Advocate. So, can you just give us maybe a brief summary on each of those and why it's relevant?

Joey stated absolutely. And he'll try to go through these quickly because there are 8 of them, we could spend an entire podcast talking about any one of these phases. But for context before he describes them, the reason they all start with the letter A is he wanted folks to kind of have this thought that if your employees felt you were succeeding in each of these 8 phases, it's like getting straight A's on your report card in school, you're doing a great job, and you're worthy of continuing to be advanced, because you're delivering a great experience.

So, the first phase is the Assess Phase. This is when a prospective employee is trying to decide whether or not they want to come work with you. They're looking at your job descriptions, your want ads, the about us page on your website, the careers page on your website. They're submitting an application, they're going through your interview process, they're sharing their resume, you're doing reference checks, all the things that lead up for an employer to decide whether or not they want to hire this specific person. And the time period where the potential employee is also assessing whether or not they want to join your enterprise.

We then come to phase two the Accept Phase. In this phase, the employer extends an offer, and if we're lucky, that desired candidate accepts our offer.

We then move to the Affirm Phase. Now, this phase occurs immediately after the new employee has decided to accept the job offer. And he’s sure all of Yanique’s amazing customer experience experts are very familiar with the concept of buyer's remorse. What they may not be as familiar with is the concept of new hires remorse. It's the same thing as buyer's remorse, it's scientifically proven that this happens anytime someone accepts a job offer, they begin to doubt the decision they just made. And in the affirm stage, we need to reaffirm their choice to counterbalance that fear and doubt and uncertainty they're naturally feeling and in their new hires remorse stage.

We then come to phase four, the Activate Phase. Now, of all the 8 phases, this is the only phase that is limited in its duration, first day, and that day is the first official day on the job.

What is it like you come to work for that first day?

And in the immortal words of country music legend Bonnie Raitt, “Have you given us something to talk about?” Because every employee is going to go home that night to their spouse, their significant other, their children, their parents, their roommate, whoever it is in their life, and that loved one, the first question they're going to ask when they come through the door is, how was your first day at work?

How are your employees going to answer that question? Have you created such a remarkable experience on that first day that they have something to talk about?

We then come to the Acclimate Phase, phase 5. Now, the acclimate phase starts on the second day on the job and can last for weeks or even months as the new employee gets used to your way of doing business. They learn the various roles and responsibilities they're going to have, they understand better the requirements of what they're supposed to do, they understand the relationships with their co-workers and colleagues, and how all those pieces fit together for them to be great at their job. They're also learning your tools and your cadence of communication, and the chain of command and the various things of how your business operates. We need to hold our employees hands while they acclimate to the job and too many employers just kind of push the employee into the deep end of the swimming pool and say, “Well, just go ahead and swim.” Instead of taking care of them and making sure they understand what's happening.

We then come to phase 6, the Accomplish Phase. This is when the new employee achieves the goal they had when they originally decided to accept your job offer. See, every employee has a vision of what this new career will be like. Whether that will be more responsibility, more autonomy, more opportunities to develop new skills, they have a vision of what they're hoping to accomplish. The challenge is most employers not only don't know what that vision is, but they're not paying attention to the employees progress as they track towards achieving those goals. If we don't do that as organizations, we can't celebrate with our team members when they accomplish their goals.

We then come to phase 7, the Adopt Phase, this is when the employee becomes loyal to you and only you, they're committed, they're not going to look for jobs elsewhere, they're not listening to those calls from head-hunters or recruiters that want to hire them away. Almost every business on the planet desires adopters. But what's fascinating is very few businesses do anything to acknowledge when an employee becomes an adopter. We have a tendency to take those employees for granted, even though they are the lifeblood of our enterprise. And if and only if, we've helped to hold our employees hands through those first 7 phases do we have the right, the privilege, the honour of having them transition to the eighth and final phase.

The Advocate Phase, where our employee becomes a raving fan for us, singing our praises far and wide. They're going on glass door and writing reviews. Anytime we have a new position open, they're recruiting their best colleagues, the people they've worked with in the past, the smartest humans they know to come apply for this job because they know it's a great place to work and they want amazing people to work there with them.

The way he always test with business owners who say to him, “Oh, Joey, a lot of our teammates are advocates. And so many of our people are advocates.” He'll say, “Great. Here's a little test to see if that's true or not. The last time you had an open position in your organisation, what percentage of the candidates you interviewed were direct referrals from your existing team members?”

What's interesting is those people who were previously saying, oh, everyone's an advocate….kind of go, well, actually, no one. So, he’s like, well, then you really don't have as many advocates as you think you do.

So, those are the 8 phases and the last thing he'll say on this is that when an employee is promoted, they go back to the beginning, they go back to that assess phase, trying to decide, “Is this a promotion I want? What am I going to do? Okay, I'll accept the promotion. Oh, should I have accepted the promotion, I liked my old job. But this new job even though it maybe comes with more money or a better title, it also comes with a lot more responsibility and a new learning curve.” And then we've got to hold their hand and acclimate them. And what happens is the longer an employee is with the organization, the more they cycle through these phases, yet, most organizations aren't paying attention to the fact that the employee is going back to the beginning. And we have an opportunity to reengage and reconnect with them as they navigate through the 8 phases the next time.

Me: I love those phases and I love that question that you asked, like that really puts them on the spot and makes them practically say, “Okay, do we really have advocates in this organization?”

What Brands Joey Has Observed Creating a Culture Where Employees are Advocates

Me: Now, Joey, could you share with us what are some of your favourite things you've seen brands do to create the kind of culture that you're talking about where employees are advocates, especially in this remote driven world that we have, I mean, the pandemic and COVID has definitely changed how organizations are approaching their business models, many of them are taking on a more hybrid approach. I know, for example, in Kingston, Jamaica here, you do have some forward thinking organizations who genuinely recognize that their employees can still be just as productive or even more working from home but then you find you have some dinosaurs who still believe people need to physically sit in traffic and go to work from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm, and they just need to see the people in the office to know that they're doing the work. But what are your thoughts on that?

Joey stated that Yanique is correct. There's still a lot of dinosaur era thinking going on in many organizations today, despite the fact that we have proven both statistically and across almost every industry on the planet, that remote work is just as effective, if not more effective than in person work. In fact, most of the research and the studies show that when employees work from home, they are more productive, they are more engaged, they are happier, and they feel a stronger connection to the fact that they are able to balance their work with their life.

So, if your organization isn't actively pursuing, at the very least hybrid, if not pure, remote work, he can set a stopwatch for how much longer you're going to be in business. It’s just the reality that the landscape has changed. If we were to roll the clock back, and he was to say to you, “Yanique, you can still run your business, but you're not allowed to use the internet.” Most businesses would be like, “Oh, my God, how am I supposed to function?” This is a fundamental aspect of business, remote work, work from home, non-centralized, come to an office work. When we get about, he thinks 10 years down the road, it's going to feel like saying to someone, you can't use the internet, saying to someone you have to come to the office is going to be the equivalent of a shock to the system and a foolish statement as saying, you have to run your business without using electricity, or the internet or a phone. The ship has sailed, this is over.

Now, when you asked him about his favourites, it's kind of a tough question because there are over 50 case studies in the new book from all 7 continents. And so, asking him to pick a favourite is kind of tough, but here's what he will tell you is a common thread, especially amongst the organizations that are recognizing the benefits of hybrid and or remote work. And that is that in an increasingly digital era, the smartest companies in the planet are making sure to invest in analogue interactions to attach to and be compatible with their digital interactions. What does he mean by that?

Well, if you've got everyone working remotely, and you're not having that office water cooler time, and you're not having everybody come to the same office, while it is beneficial for your productivity and your engagement and your employee happiness, they're still humans. So we need to find ways to build additional connection with them, that transcends the digital sphere. So, that could be sending gifts to their house, it could be hosting in person events every once in a while maybe, a group gathering twice a year, most of the research shows that if you have a fully remote team, you should strive to get together in person at least twice per year with the whole team.

But here's the secret on that, it's not about getting together in person to have meetings and to do work, it's about getting together to create connection. So, one of the companies that he profiled in the book is LEGO Corporation. Most folks listening are familiar with LEGO the children's toy, or the adult toy in his case, he loves building, he was building LEGO sets this weekend. And his 2 boys who are younger came up and they were like, “Daddy, can we help build too?” To show you, he was building on his own and then they wanted to play and he included them, and it was great fun.

But LEGO does something where every year they have a play day. Now, LEGO is a company that makes toys. So, of course they believe strongly in the concept of play. And every year they shut down all of their offices globally, for a full day, all their stores, all their corporate headquarters, all of their factories, and everyone comes together and what do they do that day?

They play, that's all they do.

They don't have team meetings, they don't talk about the vision of the future, they just play. And in interviews with LEGO employees globally, when you ask them what one of their favourite kind of traditions or rituals within the organization, they say that the LEGO Play Day is something they think about all year leading up to it. Humans are not that complicated, we like the idea of social interaction, we like the idea of play, we like the idea of getting to know people personally so we can have a personal and emotional connection with them, not just a work connection.

Me: I agree. That kind of dovetails nicely into my next question, Joey because with your new book, Never Lose an Employee Again and I find a lot of times when I talk to some of my clients, especially not necessarily those who are in a HR function, but even the business owners themselves. They will grapple or struggle with the fact that if they're losing employees, they believe it's a lot of times monetary. And I have found that a lot of times when an employee has reached a point where they're resolute in their decision to say I want to leave this company and go somewhere else, even if they're offered more money, they still wouldn't stay, they'd still leave. So, I believe that a lot of them would look forward to more non-monetary benefits, like simple to the example you gave about LEGO, a simple play day something that people look forward to, it's our sense of community, you get to meet and connect with people. And to me, there is no dollar value that you can put on those types of experiences. So, I guess my question is do you agree with me?

Joey stated that only 100% does he agree with everything Yanique just said. It's really fascinating, if we look at the research that has been done on why employees leave, the typical study on why employees leave is based on a sample set of somewhere between 200 and 500 respondents. Now, if you know anything about statistics or anybody listening has experience with statistics, a sample set of 200 to 500 results is not nearly as robust, as if that number were larger, and arguably significantly larger.

In doing the research for the book, they came across some studies that had been done by the Work Institute, where they interviewed 234,000 employees who were quitting their jobs and asked them, “Why are you quitting?”

Now, many business owners around the world will say, “Well, my employee quit because they got more money somewhere else are someone's going to pay more money somewhere else.” They make it all about the dollars, all about the money. But the research doesn't show that to be true. Only 9% of employees globally, quit for more money.

So, then that led him to wonder what about the other 91%?

Why are those people quitting?

And what this research found from the Work Institute was that the number one reason, the greatest reason given 23% of the respondents, so almost two and a half times the number of people quit for this other reason. And that reason was, they didn't see a clear path forward for their career at that organization. They didn't know what their next job was going to be. So, when we as employers, an employee comes in, and they're like, “Oh, I'm going to leave” and we're like, “Oh, we'll pay you more, we'll give you more benefits, we'll give you a better title.” These are not the things they're looking for. So, it's kind of like we're offering them things that at this point in the game really don't matter as much. And it almost feels insulting, because we're not listening to why they're leaving.

Instead, we need to move the conversation forward. We need to have the conversation before they come to us saying, “I want to quit” and have a conversation around….

“What are your goals as an employee?

We have goals for you as your employer, things we'd like you to do.

But what are you hoping to accomplish in your life?

Are you trying to get out of debt?

Are you trying to be more fit?

Are you trying to start a family?

Are you trying to buy a house?

Are you trying to take care of ageing parents?

Are you trying to go on vacation?

What are the things that are goal?

Are you trying to run a marathon?

What are your goals?

What are the things you're hoping to achieve?"

And then as employers, we need to look for opportunities to support our people in those goals as well. See, for all too long, he thinks we've had this belief, “we” meaning most organizations globally, that well, there's business and there's personal. And when you're at work, we've just want you to focus on the business, don't bring your personal life to work. But what's interesting is almost every employer on the planet expects you to think about work when you're not at work. They expect you to answer emails, to have your phone on you, we need you to work a couple hours late or if you're going on vacation, we might need you to do one or two calls.

The business has no problem asking the employee to chip into their personal time to do business related work. But God forbid we ask the business to allow the employee to chip into their business time to do personal things. For some reason we think that's offensive or improper.

Humans are humans, he would posit this, the employer of choice in the future is going to be the employer who pays as much attention to what happens in their employee’s life between 5:00 pm and 9:00 am as they do compared to what happens in that employee's life between 9:00 am and 5:00 pm.

Me: Agreed 100% Joey, I am there with you.

App, Website or Tool that Joey Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Joey shared that since the last time they had a podcast was about 5 years ago, he must confess he’s not 100% sure of all the specific answers he gave then. But the one online tool that he’s using right now that he finds increases efficiency and productivity, but also makes for he thinks a pretty great experience is the online scheduling tool Calendly.

And the reason why he loves it, because often, as he’s sure you do, he has folks saying to him, “Joey, we'd like to arrange a time to connect, we want to have a call, we want to talk about a project, we want to talk about a future speech.” Because he spends most of his days giving speeches. “We want to interview you for a podcast.” Whatever it may be, when he can send them a link that allows them to see the days he’s available and it syncs up beautifully with his calendar, it makes everybody's life faster, and more efficient, and more seamless. There isn't the back and forth of, “Well, what about next Tuesday at three?” “Oh, I can't do that.” “What about Thursday at nine?” “Nope, I can't do that.” “What about the following Tuesday?” And it makes things work better, so he’s a big fan of Calendly.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Joey

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Joey jokingly stated that this is a completely unfair question only because he loves reading books. He tries to read a book a week, there are so many wonderful, wonderful books out in the world that he absolutely loves. So, he’ll give an example of a book that is in the customer experience space, because he knows a lot of listeners spend most of their time in the CX space. And then he'll give one that's in the employee experience space since that's what they've been talking about.

So, in terms of the customer experience, he absolutely loved the book Creating Superfans: How To Turn Your Customers Into Lifelong Advocates by Brittany Hodak. An amazing book, it's been out not even a year yet, it came out earlier this year in January of 2023. Fantastic book, incredibly well written, Brittney Hodak is very much an emerging but also a well-established voice in the CX space. She's smart as a whip, she's got an amazing story. She's incredibly talented. If you're not paying attention to Brittney Hodak and if you haven't read her book, Creating Superfans, go check it out, you will not be disappointed.

Now, on the employee experience side, he would look to the book, How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships by Michael Bungay Stanier. Now, what he loves about Michael's book is it helps us with very practical tools for creating better connection, and better relationships with the people we work with. It's a fast read, but it's a powerful read, how to work with almost anyone.

Michael is smart as a whip, he's an amazing human being, he's been there, done that, got the T-Shirt. And he just has a really tactical, yet powerfully thoughtful premise in this book, that we need to be spending more time investing relationships we create with our colleagues and our co-workers and really diving into the relationship side instead of just, “Oh, well they work at the same place as I do. And so, we have to interact with each other.” He's about building the relationships. So, How to Work with (Almost) Anyone by Michael Bungay Stanier is absolutely fantastic.

What Joey is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Joey shared that there's so many. He’s an excitable guy, you probably pick up on that and anybody who's listening to the conversation. There's so many things he’s excited about, right now he would say the thing that he’s most focused on is getting the word out about this new book. He’s so excited about the response, the book debuted at number 5 on the Wall Street Journal Bestseller list. There is clearly a need for employee experience enhancement globally. And just the chance that he gets to speak at events, to do workshops for individual companies to help them get better at both engaging and retaining their people has him incredibly excited.

They're delving into exploring creating some customized workbooks that folks will be able to avail themselves of and purchase that are going to really bring the ideas in the book. He likes to think the book stands alone by itself and that it gives you as Gary Vaynerchuk would say, it gives a high picture strategy, but it’s also tactical on the ground thing you can do.

One of the challenges of writing the book is that you can't fit everything you want into the book because otherwise the book would be 10,000 pages long. So, he’s excited to create more tactical tools that people can use on an almost weekly basis. Like what is the thing we're going to focus on making our employee experience better this week and give people those kinds of ideas and suggestions so that we can make it more fun to go to work. We can create more play, we can have more excitement with the things we do.

Yeah, you mentioned something about Gary Vaynerchuk just now, but you chipped out for a bit. So, could you repeat that part for me, please?

Joey stated that he was going to say, Gary Vaynerchuk has this really interesting concept of dirt and clouds. This idea that we want things that are very tactical and practical that we can do down in the dirt, but we also want big picture strategy. We want things that are kind of in the clouds, kind of the 35,000 foot view and it's something that he really tried to create in the book, which is there is strategy in the book, but there are also really tactical things you can do.

One of the things he’s excited about is adding even more examples on the tactical side

available as workbooks and downloads and things like that that people can access to continue to work at enhancing their employee experiences on an ongoing basis.

Where Can Listeners Find Joey Online?

Never Lose an Employee Again: The Simple Path to Remarkable Retention – Hardcover – e-book – Audiobook

Website – www.joeycoleman.com

LinkedIn – Joey Coleman

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Joey Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Joey stated that he doesn't necessarily have a quote that he comes to, but in those scenarios, he likes to try to get very clear on what the situation is they're dealing with. Let him explain that a little bit. He used to be a Criminal Defense Lawyer, and so his job used to be to keep the wrongfully accused out of prison. And if he misspoke, now he’s a full time professional speaker, but in those days, speaking in the courtroom, if he misspoke, someone went to prison. And that usually meant they went to prison for a long time.

So, whenever he’s faced with a challenging situation, he asked himself two questions. Number one, “Did anyone die in this scenario we're dealing with? Is there a death that has happened?” And thankfully it's very rare that he would ever answer that question yes, usually no one has died.

The second question that he ask is, “Did anyone go to prison without the possibility of parole in the future?” Because if you go to prison without the possibility of parole, you've got a really big problem. If someone has died, you've got a really big problem. But if no one died and no one went to prison without the possibility for parole, you actually don't have that big of a problem. You've got a situation, you've got a circumstance, you've got something you maybe need to focus on or address.

But he finds that that criteria of evaluating the situation allows him to keep some perspective on how much he should be getting worked up or frustrated or angry about a scenario. And instead say, “This could be a lot worse. This is a challenging time to move through. But the consequences aren't that terrible and irrevocable that we're not going to be okay on the other side.”

Me: I like it. I've asked this question to over 150 guests because we're approaching close to 200 episodes for this podcast. And it's amazing that most guests would give maybe a motivational quote, not necessarily ask themselves a question. So, it's interesting the perspective that you take because then you're able as you identified to really recognize is this really an issue that we need to be raising our blood pressure and losing our mind, or can we just adjust our approach and decide, okay, we're going to tackle it this way, these are steps we're going to take and this is how we're going to approach it.

Joey stated that's definitely what he tries to do because he agrees with Yanique. There are very few things that we should be raising our blood pressure in a negative way. If your heart's beating faster because you're inspired, you're eager, you're in love, you're feeling those things, great. But if your heart rate is raising because of stress, because of worry, because of fear, he thinks there's an opportunity to approach the situation from a different perspective to kind of keep things a little more calm.

Me: Thank you so much for coming back on our podcast. I just want to express my greatest gratitude to you. And of course, congratulations again on your new book, Never Lose an Employee Again. I think it really will be a great complement to your original book, Never Lose a Customer Again. You brought up some excellent points, really practical stuff that employees and employers across different parts of the world in different industries can definitely think about, hope everyone that listens to this episode will go and grab a copy of your book as you mentioned in whatever version they like to listen to it in, whether it be audio or e-book or the physical book where they read. But it was really, really insightful. I love these types of conversations that get me excited, it doesn't even feel like I'm doing a podcast, it feels like I'm sitting down with a friend having a cup of coffee or a nice glass of lemonade and just having a great conversation. And these types of conversations really fulfil my soul, makes me feel good inside. So, I hope it was as fun for me as it was for you.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Never Lose a Customer Again: Turn Any Sales inot Lifelong Loyalty in 100 Days by Joey Coleman

· Never Lose an Employee Again: The Simple Path to Remarkable Retention by Joey Coleman

· Creating Superfans: How To Turn Your Customers Into Lifelong Advocates by Brittany Hodak

· How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships by Michael Bungay Stanier

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Randy Mercer is an omnichannel product content expert with over 15 years of industry experience. He leads 1WorldSync’s global product management and solution architecture teams, aligning the company's portfolio with current customer needs and emerging market trends.

A frequent commentator for national and trade media outlets covering retail and e-commerce news, Randy leverages his extensive background in item and data content alignment, e-commerce application development and solution designed to guide 1WorldSync’s strategic product roadmap and vision.

Questions

• Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey? How it is that you got from where you're coming from, to where you are today?

• Could you tell our audience a little bit about 1WorldSync, what it is that your organisation does?

• What are some key things that if we had a listener, tapping into this podcast, who was in that similar space looking to strengthen the architecture of their user experience, whether it be the digital web, or even the face to face or even through the contact centre that you believe they should be focused on primarily at this time?

• What have been some maybe one or two emerging market trends that you've seen in the whole customer experience space, not just necessarily from a face to face interaction, but even digital?

• Could you share with our listeners based on your experience especially from a design perspective, what are some key things that you need to consider in order to ensure or at least to get as close to being consistent?

• Could you share with our listeners as well, what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently?

• Now, could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed? It kind of helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Randy’s Journey

Me: Now, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey? How it is that you got from where you're coming from, to where you are today?

Randy shared that he started out as an application developer about 20 years ago, and through that, doing some customer development for a few customers, he found himself developing applications for the space that he’s in today, which is product content and sharing and distribution of that content. And fast forward, about two decades, he’s now been with 1WorldSync for about 10 years, and had been leading the product organization for about the last 5 years or so of that.

What is 1WorldSync and What Your Company Does?

Me: Could you tell our audience a little bit about 1WorldSync, what it is that your organisation does?

Randy shared that they're a SaaS platform that sits predominantly in the retail space and they sit between large manufacturers, CPG manufacturers primarily, and large retail organizations, many of which you would know, and they allow those organizations to share master data and e-com content back and forth between the two organizations to power pretty much any channel.

Strengthening the Architecture of the User Experience Whether by Digital Web, Face-to-Face or Contact Centre

Me: So, you're in that digital space, I was reading something that Shep Hyken sent out recently about the different acronyms that you have now, you have EX, CX, WX, UX and he was kind of giving a breakdown in his newsletter as to the different user experiences that exist on what the acronyms represent. Just thinking about the different experiences that the customer has, based on your experience and your area, what I picked up from your bio was you focus a lot on the landscape and the architecture of the experience. What are some key things that if we had a listener, tapping into this podcast, who was in that similar space looking to strengthen the architecture of their user experience, whether it be the digital web, or even the face to face or even through the contact centre that you believe they should be focused on primarily at this time?

Randy stated that when they look at their customer base, and their target market, what they're primarily helping them with is to the consumer experience associated with e-com primarily. But they also extend that into the in store experience as well. So, they're often very focused on for them, that consistency between the in store experience and the e-com experience, in terms of the content that they're using to power all of that. So, a very consistent product representation across all of the channels to include the imagery, the search engine optimized copy, rich media, in the terms of videos - AR, VR, all of those things.

But aside from all of that, when you think of just how all of that comes to be something that they help their customers with a lot is what they describe as orchestrating the content or the consumer experience. How do you get from creating content, managing it, distributing it into the marketplace, and then monitoring how it's selling for you. All the things that go into orchestrating those behaviours and those activities is just secondarily something that they help their customers with a lot.

Market Trends in the Customer Experience Space

Me: Now, in your space, your business and what you're doing. What have been some maybe one or two emerging market trends that you've seen in the whole customer experience space, not just necessarily from a face to face interaction, but even digital seeing that many customers, that's where they hang out, it's easier for them, the convenience is better, and it's less hassle for them.

Randy shared that the biggest thing that they recognize today is just the expectations of the consumer that’s shopping online, in terms of the types of information and the types of content that they're expecting to see when they're doing their shopping on any e-commerce site. Beyond that, he just mentioned the consistency related to that, what they know in the consumer surveys that they do is that consumers today are not just shopping on one site, they're often looking at items across a number of different digital properties before they finally make a buying decision. And they're looking for more and more content.

So, one of the expectations that they see evolving is just this expectation of consistency across these digital channels, if they don't see that, it damages the trust they might have in the information they're seeing. If it's not the same, like which one of them is correct. And then sometimes they just move on to other products, and things like that.

So, the other thing that they see evolving around the online consumer experience, is the fact that consumers don't like to read, they like to look at pictures. So, when they help their customers with the imagery that they use to depict their products, more and more, they're starting to create imagery that contains some of the verbiage that is actually in the SEO copy. But again, consumers don't often read that, they're just looking at the picture so annotated images becoming more and more frequent, hotspot images where they've got spots on the images, where you can click and pull up some specific details.

And then hero imagery, where they take a front facing product image and they call out a few very key details about that product as a way of just informing the consumer without them having to read some of the text.

Me: Right, so you kind of have to find a way to make the information pop, making it less frustrating for them to try and dig through your website to try and find what they're looking for, but it's there.

Key Things to Consider in Order to Ensure Consistency

Me: You mentioned expectations and consistency and I quite agree with you as it relates to both. I find a lot of organizations, it's not that they don't deliver a great experience or maybe that's their intention is to give a great experience. But the challenge is that they don't do it consistently. Could you share with our listeners based on your experience especially from a design perspective, what are some key things that you need to consider in order to ensure or at least to get as close to ensuring because I know nothing in life is guaranteed, to get closer to being consistent?

Randy stated that it is just attention to detail. So, within their platform that allows the manufacturers to manage and prepare their data to be sharing that with the marketplace, they just provide a lot of tools that help them with the finer points of the content. A really good example of that is, a significant percentage of their customers are in the food CPG space, so selling food products into retail channel. And today in the area of transparency and an intense interest in nutritionals, allergens, those kinds of things is related to food, the key to all of that is the nutrition fact panel that you often see represented on the back of food packaging, being represented digitally online, if that is not absolutely consistent with the package itself and then maybe other digital representations of that, you're very quickly going to damage the consumers trust in that particular product is related to what they're putting in their body or feeding to their family.

So, they provide a lot of things, a lot of tools to help ensure that consistency all the way down to the point that they'll assemble that information on behalf of the brand, driven by imagery of the packaging and they use OCR, so optical scanning and some AI to digitize that information. So, just an example, that's just a really key one in their space.

Beyond that, just always goes back to the imagery, that's the first thing that consumers are looking at when they look at a product online on any digital channel is that imagery. So, the degree to which you can distribute that all from one point of origination, which in for their customers oftentimes is their platform, the better chance you stand of having it consistent across the digital channels that you're trying to sell that product on.

Me: And of course the consistency leads to trust because if you're consistent then you become a brand that they trust and if the trust factor is there, then they're more likely to continue purchasing from you. You also mentioned at the beginning, the expectations and I find a lot of times that there is a big disconnect between what is advertised and marketed, and of course, that's what sets up the expectations of the client. And then what the client actually receives, what has been your experience in trying to ensure that there is as close an alignment as possible between customer expectations and what is actually communicated by the brand?

Randy stated that that is a really good question. And it's something that they talk about a lot on the retailer or the e-tail side. They talked to those customers about making sure they're not manufacturing returns, right. And you can manufacture return by doing exactly what you just described, misrepresenting the product online, somebody buys it, they think they're getting one thing, they get it, and it's not exactly what they thought they were buying, and so they return it. And then as the e-tailer, you're in a worse position than if you had not even sold the thing in the first place, because you're dealing with the expense of that return.

So, again, when they work with their brands, relative to how they can provide the best content out into the marketplace to represent their products online, oftentimes, for some of them that they're encouraging them to just let them do it, ship the product to them, they'll take the imagery of the product, they'll drive the product information, and that way they know when it leaves their platform, out into whatever retailer or e-tailer is going to use that content, they're confident that it's absolutely representative of the product itself.

That said, they never do that without the brand sign off on it, right, they give them the chance to say, “Yep, that accurately represents my product.” But as opposed to just letting the brand provide some content that they don't really have visibility for the origination of that. It's just easier often if they just do it on behalf of the brand, to just makes sure it's absolutely representative of the product.

App, Website or Tool that Randy Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Randy stated that they use a lot of tools that provide digital read only representations of product data that they assemble from a lot of different sources. And often they're using AI to do that to draw up a number of sources within their applications, create that representation as a way to visually represent the items that will be in in ecom. So, in their case, they use an application within their enterprise called Digital Catalog and it's literally what it says. And that's just the primary mechanism they have to cross check, what is the product going to look like when you actually do publish it online across any channel? So, that's a key one right there.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Randy

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Randy shared that he tends to read a lot of books about product management. And so, most recently, can't remember the titles, but two of them are the most recent ones are just around the evolution of product Management. And how folks think about doing that today in ways different than they used to. And what he means by that is at one time, it was very driven around the expectations of specific customers and trying to drive your products based on maybe some expectations that may not be pervasive to your entire community. And today, we think about it a lot more from a pragmatic perspective.

In fact, pragmatic marketing is one of those areas of materials that they leverage in their product management practice. And the net of all of that is, think very pragmatically about the solutions that you're developing or the products that you're managing, in a way that the solutions you're providing are pervasive to your customer community is something that they're willing to pay for because you're solving a valuable problem for them. So, he thinks pragmatic marketing is probably one of the most recent things that he can refer to.

What Randy is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Randy shared that for him, in their organization specifically, they've acquired a few technology platforms over the last to 2 or 3 years, that the fun part of that is not only having access to some additional technology to add to your solution portfolio, but just the opportunity that you have to work with just brand new sets of people that come along with whatever platform you might acquire.

And what they always find is, in addition to the value of the technology itself, it's the value of the people that comes along with it, right. So, just new skill sets, new personalities, new energy. So, for him, he’s literally on the road right now just visiting one of their recently acquired organizations. And it's just very exciting to him to just have that new experience and bring new people into the organization. And you get a lot of new perspectives and so for him, that's top of mind.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Randy Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Randy stated yes, he just used it earlier today. And it might sound kind of negative when I says it but he always say, “Don't come with problems, come with solutions.” And it's just so often that folks want to expose or draw attention to an issue without much forethought to what you can do about it and just the approach that he just tries to encourage is, if you see an issue or some friction within either the organization or maybe something that you're trying to do, think through it first, how can you solve that problem and then that's what you bring forward. And that's what you shed light on, versus just the issue itself.

So, he always tend to draw back on that, even with himself because the knee jerk reaction is to just moan and groan about something that isn't working quite the way you want it to. And he just has to remind himself, think about it first and find the solution and then that makes the rest of it much easier to deal with.

Me: Thank you so much for coming on our podcast today and sharing all of these great insights as it relates to your organization and your expertise. And also some of the things that organizations can consider as it relates to consistency and expectations when they're trying to design a landscape for customers across the different channels that they're serving them to ensure that they have a delightful and a fantastic experience. I'm sure our listeners gained great insights from the information you shared with us today. Thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Peter Mullen brings more than two decades of marketing leadership to his role as Interactions’ CMO. Previously, he was Senior Vice President of Marketing at Payactiv, where he led customer success marketing, lead-gen programming, customer acquisition, product marketing and more.

Prior, he held prominent marketing and communications roles at VXI Global Solutions, Comcast and Netflix.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got to where you are today.

• So, you are currently the CMO of Conversational AI at Interactions, correct?

• Seeing that you work at an organisation that you're dealing with troubleshooting of customers challenges on a daily basis, could you share with us maybe one or two success stories that you've had with clients? And you know what the impact has been for their business as a result of your approach and methodology?

• How do you maintain the human touch even though you're using AI and how impactful has that been for your clients?

• What would be two to three things that you would recommend that they need to focus on for the latter part of 2023, preparing for 2024, in order to ensure that they stay relevant, and they're able to hopefully do a better job than their competition?

• Could you also share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but still has had a great impact on you.

• Could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests in times of adversity or challenge, do you have a quote that you would use or revert back to, to kind of help you to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed or you felt demotivated or you just got off the course of what you were doing? Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Peter’s Journey

Peter shared that he lives in Silicon Valley. He’s been doing marketing for more than 20 years, which means he had the opportunity to arrive in Silicon Valley just as the internet was becoming massively adopted across the world and began to change everything. His background is as a journalist, and more on the liberal arts side of things. So, for him, his journey was one of spending several years moving into the tech world, and really focusing on narratives, how do we tell the stories about the great things that we're building?

How do we make it understandable, digestible?

And ultimately, what type of impact can we bring to people in many cases who are seeing things for the first time?

And Netflix was a defining moment where they reinvented how the world gains its entertainment, with all the beautiful personalization and customization.

Throughout the career, his journey has been sitting in that intersection of new ideas, new technology, making it explainable to people, and how the CX element has come in in the last decade is really simple.

What he discovered was that we could build the greatest things in the world, we could communicate in the best way. But if it was not embraced by CX, if CX was not leading how we presented that to the rest of the world, we would stall. So, for the past decade, his focus has been in the CX world, working in all elements from BPO’s, from contact centres, and right now with a wonderful technology company that helps provide better digital experiences for customers around the world.

What is Interactions?

Me: So, you are currently the CMO of Conversational AI at Interactions, correct?

Peter confirmed, correct. It's a really simple explanation of who they are and what they do. They are the digital front door for the brands around the world that care the most about that first front door experience. They lead with voice and what that means is that when millions of people call into any of these brands, they start their conversations with, “How may I help you today?”

They have AI, plus human in the loop, it's unique, they're the only ones who do that. And it enables the customers to speak in their natural language, ask natural questions and all of their technology processes that really efficiently. The outcome and what that means for millions of call centre agents and businesses alike, is that they have customers that are more satisfied, they're having better experiences without the friction and when they ultimately have to talk to an agent in a human experience when that's necessary, they are further along the customer journey and it's a quicker resolution, so that adds to operational efficient in a significant way.

What Has Been the Impact for a Business as a Result of Your Approach and Methodology?

Me: So, seeing that you work at an organization that you're dealing with troubleshooting of customers challenges on a daily basis, could you share with us maybe one or two success stories that you've had with clients? And what the impact has been for their business as a result of your approach and methodology?

Peter stated that it's a great question, he’ll give two answers of examples. So, they work with one of the top five financial institutions in America, and a customer of that financial institution will call in with a lost credit card, they're able to process that fluidly and effectively without having to have a human agent engage on that.

And in this sequence, this customer journey, they can actually with their digital technology and their AI cover over 40 different requests that the customer may have just on that simple one call in. They can do it all in one call, leading to an overall better customer experience.

Another example, they work with one of the largest consumer technology companies in the world, they have outlets around the world, you can schedule an appointment at any one of them around the world, call up, talk to their automated assistant, reschedule it for any time, any date with different products that you want to come in and discuss and any different location in the world. Again, without ever having to talk to a human being that can be handled in mere minutes, with their solution, there's no hold time, no waiting in any way. And the processing is just effective and fluid for everybody.

Me: Wow, no wait time, goodness me. Sounds like we need your company here in Kingston, Jamaica.

Peter shared that they did a customer survey in the spring of US base consumers, what their biggest concerns and complaints were, this is no surprise, there are 77% of us who complain that wait times are the number one problem in customer service. If we could eliminate that one thing, let's even reduce it by half, the entire CX experience is transformational for the rest of the journey.

Maintaining the Human Touch While Using AI and How Impactful Has That Been for Clients

Me: Could you also share with us that as an organization, I know you mentioned that you're heavily into AI, but you're one of the few companies that also has a human touch that's integrated with the AI in your methodology and approach. How do you maintain the human touch even though you're using AI and how impactful has that been for your clients?

Peter stated that first, he will just acknowledge this remarkable moment in time in the second half of 2023. We are all trying to figure out what to do with generative AI, the world truly changed in November of 2022 last year, when open AI debuted and everyone could see how powerful it was and it's only scratching the surface. So, he’s had more than 100 customer conversations this year, he’s been to more than a dozen events, walking the floors, talking to everybody. And AI is the number one word being spoken in all of those corridors.

Number two word, however, is human, and this is really important because as all as these businesses around the world and all these people around the world are trying to figure out what the New World Order is going to be. The aspect of having the human touch, the human empathy, the human brain is absolutely essential.

And we all have to acknowledge that the greatest computer for the foreseeable future is going to be the human brain, it is today, it will be over the next coming years. Let's see where it is in the next decade. But for now, let's use that as our baseline.

Now his company is a company that was one of the OG’s, the original gangsters of Conversational AI with an emphasis on the artificial part of it, the AI. They started 18 years ago, when they started 18 years ago, AI was not that good. So, from day one, they had put a human in the loop. What that means very functionally is if the technology cannot understand what the customer or the client is looking for, they've always had a human in the background ready to nudge the conversation forward. That agent he or she is not engaged in the whole conversation, but rather, will catch a snippet of the voice conversation or the text or the chat and be able to say, “Aha, this is what Yanique is trying to do, this is where she wants to go next in her journey flow.”

And the agent will, as he said, nudge it forward. That's unique for what they do. So, they focus AI first, and about 90 plus percent of the time AI is all that's needed. But for that last 10,% it's essential that the human helps move it onward. And other companies today don't do it that way, other companies are typically starting with the human first and then augmenting AI on the back end for automation. Does that make sense?

Me: Right? So, basically, you're saying because the human comes in at the tail end of the experience, you're able to have the resolution done quicker. Because now it's moved up, it's escalated, especially if it's something that can't be fixed that first point of contact.

Peter stated that that's exactly right. If you think about the IVR, and the prompts that typically exist in many frontline solutions, the moment that we run into trouble, we get into a loop, or we can't move forward in a way we want, we start pressing zero, we start yelling for the agent, 33% of us swore at a robot last year, that just let you know just how peaked, he thinks that percentage is low, but it shows how peaked people are with their customer experience. And for what typically happens, as you know, as the first one or two engagements are okay, then it starts getting more complex, more layered, more nuanced, that's where a human can play this essential role of coming in and understanding what you want to do and then pushing it forward.

Recommendations Companies Need to Focus on to Ensure They Stay Relevant and Do a Better Job Than Their Competition

Me: Now, you mentioned that we're like halfway through 2023 and it's so true, a lot of us are looking to what's next, what's the next innovative, creative, exciting thing that my organization can do that would set me apart from my competition?

So, if you were to give advice to our listeners that are tapping into this episode that are in the customer experience space, what would be two to three things that you would recommend that they need to focus on for the latter part of 2023, preparing for 2024, in order to ensure that they stay relevant, and they're able to hopefully do a better job than their competition?

Peter stated so first, he wants to use the word he used earlier, which is baseline. He thinks it's really important to have a baseline understanding of what AI is doing, and what it's going to be doing over the next several years. His perspective and opinion is that it is much more significant than even any of us understand that this is truly a game changer that is going to impact every aspect of the customer contact centre world, customer experience itself, that's his baseline.

Now, on top of that, here's another trend that is not just for the rest of this year, but essential to understand how fast it has changed the world. Personalization, and customization is transformational. You and I have had all of our behaviours changed by that incredible computer that we hold in our hand, we expect instant resolution, we expect customed and tailored experiences, AI then offers the solution for that expectation.

Over time in the next several years, we're going to be able to automate, we're going to be able to speed up resolutions or experiences. And we're going to be able to customize and personalize those experiences, these are essential to understand as macro themes. And they're secular, which means they are long standing, it's not just going be a blip on our radar.

So, if he’s a young person in a contact centre, moving his way up, ambitious, he leans forward, he’s thinking about how rapidly this can potentially impact and change the ecosystem that he works in today. So, as an individual, he’s thinking to himself, how am I going to evolve and ride the wave in a way that will be beneficial for me, for my family, and for those around, there's tremendous opportunities. But it's absolutely essential to understand how big this is.

If he’s a business, so, now moving up the food chain a bit, he needs to be thinking about how AI can bring operational efficiency, improvement in Op X - operational expenses, and how we can truly automate and streamline my overall operations. And if he’s that person, which many days he’s talking to those people by the way, he’s thinking to himself every day, how do I take the incredible human capital and the talent I have, and build solutions around them so that talent can be unlocked?

You and I both know how much processing takes place, how much wrote automation occurs right now with human beings. Think about what it's going to mean as we can start to unlock all of that talent, because AI can put in the automation, freeing us up to do a lot more important and essential things which ultimately reinforces at that whole personalization opportunity back to the clients.

App, Website or Tool that Peter Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Peter stated that this will probably not surprise many people, he believes that Slack is absolutely a game changer for businesses today. So, the challenge that we have is that in the past three years, our worlds have turned upside down and we've gone hybrid, we've gone remote, we've gone back to the office, typically kicking and screaming in that case. It is a true challenge for business leaders to understand how do you effectively communicate with your teams in this new disrupted world.

He'll give you one example. If you are a business that has veterans who have worked there for multiple years, they have a tonne of tribal knowledge, they also have positive relationships that they've formed over the years with each other, then you have now new people coming in who don't have any of those connections, they don't know where things even are. A tool like Slack has one beautiful element that he doesn't think is talked about enough. It enables you to process both business in real time, but it also enables you to process personality and more of the informality that used to take place in offices all the time, even a smiley face or a thumbs up is a different type of communication then you would have on email, you have on the phone. This type of connecting of the fabric is absolutely essential to be doing right now for business success.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Peter

When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Peter shared that there's a book that is called Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products by Nir Eyal. He's a Stanford Professor and this came out about a decade ago, Hooked is a very friendly, easy to read, B to C book, describing how to capture the curiosity of people online, typically using apps. It's simply how you build their confidence, which leads to trust, trust leads to engagement, engagement leads to loyalty and sales. And the reason that he’s calling that out is because it is so darn simple. He keeps it on his bookshelf and reread it at least once a year simply to reinforce how important it is to build confidence and trust with a buyer no matter B2B, B2C, client, customer, anyone. Trust is the absolute currency of the next 20 years.

What Peter is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Peter stated what a great question. So, he’s going to speak about people and team for a second. It's been a rough 18 months for many of us, it's been a rough 3 or 4 years for many of us. He’s really excited about how to think structurally about teams, think about this hybrid environment all of us are in and think about how to motivate groups of people to lift their heads above all of the different conflicting confusions and excitements and pressures that are hitting us to deliver good results. So, very specifically, he’s using this year to think about how on a one to one and a one to few and a one to many, he can help the teams and the people around him optimize their own success.

Me: And do you have some tools that you have in mind in getting that done? Are you kind of just still in the strategy phase?

Peter stated that he believes that there is a tremendous power in having slogans and using those slogans repeatedly to help build momentum, build a movement, almost like a sports team. So, this year in 2023, from a team approach, which is one of the things that's very important to him, he has 3 of them.

One is a zero to one mentality. And what that means and what he share with the team is that there are massive things that they are trying to change but if they take a quote, unquote, one, zero to one mentality, what it means is that they constantly want to think about start-up and start-up innovation. Take small steps forward, look at everything you're doing as going from nothing to something. And what that does is it enables you to have small fast wins. It enables you to appreciate those wins. And when you have setbacks, and we all do, it puts those setbacks in a framework that says they're minor and the next day we can move forward, that’s zero to one.

Second slogan is “Rungs on your ladder.” And he learned this by working at one of the top 20 largest BPO’s in the world. It's incredible to him to think about nearshore, onshore and offshore, millions of folks who are moving up every day with their careers. And so, we focus a lot on rungs on your ladder, what's the right thing for you, wherever you are in your career stage to take the next step up. And they're very explicit with that on his team, every person knows what the rung on the ladder is for their teammate. That type of transparency means that they are a team all working together.

The third one, and the third slogan is lean forward, he has a very strong bias that people who are going to lean forward in their chair are going to be the ones who are going to move forward and be the most successful. But really importantly, because of those first two ideas, if he’s getting his team to lean forward, it's in a cooperative, supportive way and that radiates around and their teammates start leaning forward as well.

Where Can We Find Peter Online

LinkedIn – Peter Mullen

LinkedIn – Interactions

Website – www.interactions.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Peter Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tend to revert to, Peter stated that that is a surprise question that he will answer very authentically. He’s a cancer survivor. He has had setbacks at multiple times in his life in various ways and spaces. And he thinks many of us have, he thinks that there's a lot of hidden challenges but also triumphs that all of us have experienced. And so for him, a simple phrase that he often uses for himself is, “Always tomorrow.” And what that reflects and means for him is that no matter what setbacks we have, no matter what move forwards we have, there's always going to be the next day to do it again and do it a little better.

Me: Brilliant. Always tomorrow, I like it. Thank you so much, Peter, for taking time out of your very busy schedule and hopping on this podcast with us, sharing all these great insights as it relates to AI is wonderful, but the human touch is also very critical. I'm glad that you did reinforce that in your message and our conversation that the human element isn't going anywhere and it's still going to be the baseline of everything that we're doing, I think that was really critical to what you brought across. And also, some of the recommendations that you believe our listeners can focus on as we move towards closing off 2023 and tap into 2024, what are some of the areas that they need to really engage in. Whether from a as you mentioned, B2C approach, or B2B or even in just building your career. We really appreciate it and just want to say thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products by Nir Eyal

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View Details

Eric Melchor is a mediocre tennis player, Texas, expat living in Romania and Partnerships & Evangelists for OptiMonk. With over 600 5-star review and powering more than 30,000 brands, our mission is to empower the average online business with Amazon-like personalization superpowers. How?

By giving brands the power to use AI to create better headlines, product descriptions and run A/B tests to tailor the product page and shopping experience - on autopilot. Thus, saving you hundreds of manual hours while your conversions increase in the process.

Questions

• Could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, we always like to hear from our guests in their own words a little bit about how they got to where they are today.

• You are the Partnerships & Evangelists for OptiMonk. Could you share with our listeners what is OptiMonk? And what does OptiMonk do?

• Could you share with us why you think it's important to integrate AI? Do you think it will make the process a little bit more seamless? Is it giving the customer more steps to take? What have been some of your experiences with your customers? What has their feedback been?

• What are some ways that the AI can help to personalise that experience, or the shopping experience for the customer?

• So, in terms of an online shopping experience, what are some key things that you think is critical when you're trying to design that journey for the customer. What would be, let's say three or four things that you would say to them that needs to be critically engineered into that process to ensure the customer has a great experience?

• Now, Eric, could you share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• Can you share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, could you share with us if you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason at all you get derailed.

Highlights

Eric’s Journey

Me: So, Eric, could you share with our listeners a little bit about your journey, we always like to hear from our guests in their own words a little bit about how they got to where they are today.

Eric shared that prior to moving to Romania, about 3 years ago, he held director level marketing and CX customer experience positions for publicly traded companies in Houston, Texas. And he really loved what he was doing. And he got to manage large teams and large budgets, but then when he decided to move to Romania with his family, he wanted to start in a new industry, and so he got into tech and SAAS, and complete shifts of big corporate America, moving into the start-up world where he was working with companies that had maybe around a dozen employees and he was wearing multiple hats.

So, completely different way of looking at marketing, and how you approach things from a customer experience perspective. So, he’s enjoyed it, it's been a fantastic journey so far. But he’s definitely a lot busier now than when he was working for the larger companies and he had bigger teams that can manage multiple things.

What is OptiMonk and What Your Company Does?

Me: So, your bio says that you are the Partnerships & Evangelists for OptiMonk. Could you share with our listeners what is OptiMonk? And what does OptiMonk do?

Eric shared that OptiMonk is like an all in one conversion optimization platform. So, anything that you need. Well, just to take a step back, they have over 30,000 brands that use the platform and many of the brands use them to increase their AOV, which is their Average Order Value, because there's some pretty neat things that you can do to make that very simple. And there's other things that you can do as well, like grow your email subscriber list and redo cart abandons. But increasing your AOV is something that a lot of brands use them for.

Really excited that the past few months, they’ve been focused on AI and they've released a couple of features that allow sort of like a hands-off approach to doing conversion optimization. And so, they're really going that route after speaking with a lot of customers, it seems like the big hurdle to really trying to get the most out of conversion optimization is just time, time to learn how to use the platform, time to implement different campaigns. So, they're trying to automate this so that you don't really have to do much, and AI can do most of the work for you.

But OptiMonk, again, they've been around for about 8 years. They're integrated with many different CRMs, and platforms like Shopify and Klaviyo, and Active Campaign and HubSpot, among many others. And check them out, they're on G2, and you can look at their ratings and reviews. They have over 600 5-star reviews on G2 and Shopify.

The Importance of AI – Will it Make the Process More Seamless?

Me: Now AI, that's a big thing that a lot of organizations are focused on now, especially with so many different options emerging, ChatGPT being probably the most recent in the last six to eight months. Could you share with us why you think it's important to integrate AI? Do you think it will make the process a little bit more seamless? Is it giving the customer more steps to take? What have been some of your experiences with your customers? What has their feedback been?

Eric stated that he thinks why they're implementing AI, first is because there's no human being that is smarter than a machine, than a computer, it's just not going to happen. He thinks even the greatest chess player in the world was beaten by the IBM supercomputer a few years ago and now pretty much any computer can beat any chess player in the world, it's just not going to happen, computers and AI are a lot smarter than then we humans.

So, we're just trying to take advantage of that and there's certain things that you can do like A/B testing, like A/B testing headlines, landing pages or the homepage or product page. And then rather than having the user, the customer come up with different headlines to test, their feature will come up with headlines that you can test automatically. And it could run different experiments automatically and automatically pick the winner once one has been statistically significant, proven to be the winner.

So, to answer your question, it's going to reduce the amount of time and the effort that is required to implement such conversion optimization campaigns. And then the second thing is that it's just a lot smarter than human beings, it's going to pick winners faster, and make those updates and changes on your website in real time faster than you could if you were doing it manually.

Ways that AI Can Help Personalize the Experience for the Customer

Me: Now, personalization is also so important. I feel even as a consumer, when I do business with organizations, I want to know that I'm not just another transaction, and they see me for who I am, what my personal interests, requests or needs are, and I'm not being compared or grouped into a set of people, because we're all different. What are some ways that the AI can help to personalize that experience, or the shopping experience for the customer?

Eric shared that they haven't started using AI for that specific use case. However, one of the things that their platform allows is being able to collect zero party data in a very easy and friendly way. So, for those who don't know, zero party data is basically data that you would get directly from the visitor that comes to your website and you can usually get that in the form of asking a question.

So, here's a very simple use case, let's say you're shopping for Mother's Day, and Yanique, you go to a website, and you're looking for a gift for your mom, or maybe a godmother or maybe even a sister or something. And a simple question could appear that just says, “Hi, welcome to flowers.com. Are you shopping for yourself or for someone else?”

Very simple question, and then based on your answer, let's say you choose shopping for somebody else, then a response can be, “Fantastic, let me take you to the part of the website that's most valuable for you and show you our most popular items, giftable items this season.” So, that's a very simple way of collecting zero party data. But once you have that, that information, that data, then you can basically change the experience in real time for that visitor.

You're not really using any AI or anything, you're just basically doing different segmentation based on responses to the questions that you're answering. And that's what they recommend to a lot of their clients, a lot of clients who are able to collect more email subscribers, who are able to get a lot more repeat visitors, who are able to get a higher AOV, they're doing a lot of things, take into account collecting zero party data, in a very fun and engaging way. He likes to think of them as micro conversions.

Another example could be a pure health and wellness website. And let's say you primarily sell three products. One is weight loss, one is to increase muscle mass and another one is to help you sleep better.

Well, you can ask the person visiting, “Which of these three are you primarily interested in?” And then depending on their answer, let's say the person chose to increase muscle mass, then you could say, “Fantastic, here's our most popular blog posts that show you how to increase muscle mass. And by the way, here's our three most popular products for increasing muscle mass.”

And so, that's done in the form of zero party data once again, another example. But it's done in such a way that it keeps the person engaged for much longer, spending time on your website much longer into conversions as a result, the conversions increase because of the zero party data that's being collected and the ability to change the journey in real time for that end user.

In Terms of Online Shopping Experience, Key Things that Needs to be Critically Engineered to Ensure the Customer Has a Great Experience

Me: Now what's interesting just listening to you speak just know, Eric, I was thinking about the whole journey of the customer, right? Because you're talking about how it is that they land on the page, what kind of experience do they have? What are some of the questions that you ask them in order to channel them down a particular road and that's kind of you orchestrating or engineering the journey you want them to have. So, in terms of an online shopping experience, what are some key things that you think is critical when you're trying to design that journey for the customer. If you had a client who came to you and they're looking to improve on their customer experience, improve on the journey that their customer is having through their online platforms, what would be, let's say three or four things that you would say to them that needs to be critically engineered into that process to ensure the customer has a great experience?

Eric stated that one example he would like to share is this brand called Obvi, have you ever heard of them Yanique?

Me: I have not.

Eric stated that they competed in a heavily saturated market. They a protein powder and they've been around about 3 years. But here's the interesting thing about them, when they started out, they started out with a $10,000 investment, bootstrap investment.

Three years later, they are a $3 Million Dollar brand and competing in a very saturated market among protein powders. What's so special is that when you see interviews of their CEO, Ronak Shah, he says they heavily focus on conversion optimization, particularly by the experience when somebody clicks on a Facebook Ad, that moment when they click on that ad, that's the moment that they are the most interested, and the most curious about a brand. Not two days later when they get the email in their inbox, not four days later when they get the SMS message. No, that time exactly when they click on that ad, that's when they're most curious and they want to learn more about the brand.

So, what they did was, is that all the landing pages that they created, they just created one landing page. But what was different about each landing page or experience was that the headline mimicked what was on the Facebook Ads, so if they had a Facebook ad that talked about grow healthy hair faster, then the headline on the landing page, said something like, are you losing your hair and you want to regrow it or something like that, it aligned with the ad that was clicked on.

Now, Obvi had a bunch of different value propositions, they had other ads that said something like the best tasting collagen protein, once that ad was clicked on, they went to the same landing page, but the website was able to recognize the Facebook ad because of the UTM parameters, he doesn't want to get too technical there. But because it recognized the ad, the headline on that landing page change to mimic what was the main copy on the Facebook Ad, even though it was the same landing page.

So, they were able to do this very easily without having to create duplicate landing pages, something he used to do as a marketer back in the day. And they were able to scale Facebook ads, which is really unheard of the past couple of years because of the iOS 14 upgrades and updates and things like that. But they were able to do it very efficiently and scale that way through Facebook, because they're able to mimic the headline on the landing pages with their advertising campaigns on Facebook.

So, that's one example he likes to share, something that all brands should be doing. Because when a person clicks on an ad, and they go to the page, the website, they want to make sure that what they clicked on is the thing that they're interested in and not some sort of bait and switch. Absolutely. So, he thinks that's one tactic.

Another tactic is Average Order Value, he thinks that's something that every brand should really focus on, especially if you're seeing cost per requisitions anywhere around $20 to $20. If you're seeing a high cost per acquisition, then definitely you should have an average order value somewhere of at least $70, $80 plus. And within the platform, they make it super easy to be able to increase your AOV, you can do things very easily, like add shipping thresholds. So, depending on the value that's in the shopping cart, let's say you provide free shipping for orders that are more than $75 and somebody puts something in there that equals $50, then there could be a little message that appears in a horizontal bar on the website, like on every page, and it just says something like, spend $25 more and you get free shipping. And that's a very easy tactic that works for a lot of brands and they're able to utilize that and get increased their AOV that way. So, that's a second tactic.

And then a third one he likes is around global visitors. So, the global visitors, he thinks Shopify released a study a few weeks ago, and the market was almost something outrageous. It was in a Billion Dollar market, it's going to continue to increase. And if you're a website that gets more than 20% of your visitors internationally, then you should be creating a personalized experience for those visitors.

Here's one example. If he goes to a retailer in the US by the name of Woodhouse Clothing, and he’s based in Romania, and he goes to their website, there's a little message that will appear that says, “Hi, we ship to Romania, our prices include taxes, you can shop in your local currency, which is Romanian Leu. And our orders are free shipping if you spend more than like $200 Leu.” something like that. So, it's a very easy and a very fast way you given that international shopper assurance, and just kind of just made yourself more trustworthy by just letting them know, beforehand, before they even waste time looking around whether or not you shipped to them, just letting them know that hey, welcome we do ship to you and here's some of the other questions that you may be wondering around tax or the currency on our website. So, he thinks that's a pretty cool example.

App, Website or Tool that Eric Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

Eric shared that the one online tool that he uses a lot is Notion, and he’s starting to use it more and more. First of all, it's free, or at least the one that he uses. And he’s starting to use it as a CRM. He used to use Trello a lot as a project management tool. Are you familiar with Trello, Yanique?

Me: I am, yes.

So, Eric used to be a big fan of Trello. And somebody pointed out that, “Hey, you can do everything you're doing in Notion, but it's actually more streamlined and easier to navigate.” And so, he believed him, because he does use Notion for other things, but he’s just not too familiar with it. And he sent him a free template to use and he’s been using it ever since. And it is more streamlined, it's just quicker, it can do everything that Trello can do but it's just faster to navigate, less clicks. You can see more things on one screen. And so, he’s becoming a bigger, bigger fan of Notion, he would say.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Eric

When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Eric shared that one book that he read recently is called Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland. Have you ever heard of the agency called Ogilvy?

Me: I think so, yes.

Eric shared that he's (Rory Sutherland) the vice Chairman of Ogilvy, really smart guy. He saw him speak live and he got his book and it's so fascinating, because the whole premise of the book is that there's a lot of answers to solutions that are unorthodox, they are a bit crazy. But we don't spend enough time trying to think of what those crazy solutions are because we've been programmed to think logically. And also, when you're in big companies, you can't show up to a meeting and like pitch this outrageous idea, because you're afraid of the repercussions and maybe being let go, right? So, you're always trying to think of what the logical solution is to problems.

But he has a number of good examples, for example, nobody was banging on the door asking for an expensive, sexy looking vacuum, but look at Dyson. There are a lot of examples like that that he gives. And it's just a really interesting book and it's helping him to think in different ways rather than trying to think of like what's the most logical solution.

What Eric is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s excited about, Eric shared that the one thing right now, obviously, for OptiMonk, they have the AI functionality features that are coming down the road, pretty excited about that, not just for their customers, but also future people who want to try their platform.

Personally, the other thing he’s pretty excited about is on the side, he is launching a new service for companies that are based here in Europe, where they're having a tough time that are trying to reach their audience, especially if they're tech companies. And the past 3 years he’s been building, you would say, an audience with the podcast that he hosts, and he interviews European start-up founders. And because of that, he's been able to grow his network among people in the start-up scene.

So, the service is basically combining sponsorship opportunities with his podcast, his newsletter, and then also in person events. And so, every now and then he likes to host in person cocktail party/networking events, and people that attend, they really enjoy them. They say that are a lot of fun, he likes to have a lot of fun with them, he has icebreakers, he likes to make sure that everybody has a great time. And so, in that in person event, the sponsor will have a chance to have a live short one to one interview with him in front of everybody there. So, it's another great way if their audience is also tech entrepreneurs, and tech start-ups, then it's a great way that they can get their brand in front of a live audience. So, that's what he’s pretty excited about and he’s been focused on he would say the past couple of weeks.

Where Can We Find Eric Online

LinkedIn – Eric Melchor

Innovators Can Laugh Podcast

Me: So, I did remember reading a little bit about your podcast before when I was reading the bio, and I didn't get a chance to ask you about that. Could you share a little bit about your podcast? What it's about? Where does the podcast live? Is it available on most podcasts, if all platforms? And who are some of the insightful people you interview? Like I'm having this awesome interview with you now.

Eric shared that his podcast, it is available on all the major platforms like Spotify and Apple. He likes to think of the show as the Tonight Show, but for entrepreneurial related podcast, it's like a coffee, a casual coffee, like chat with the start-up founder, but the audience feels like they're just hanging out with the host and the guests. He tries to make just very light-hearted and witty. They share the ups and downs of the start-up founders, entrepreneurial journey, but they also like to have some laughs during the conversation. And so, he would say pretty recently, if he recorded an episode, and if he really listened to it and didn't think it was that funny, then he’s just not airing it. So, that's how focused he is in trying for the show to live up to its name.

Some of the guests that have been so funny, a recent one not too long ago was Valentin Radu, it was episode 99. And that one almost had him crying because his story was just so funny. And all the crazy things he did just to hustle when he was younger and make $1. But there's a lot that anybody can learn from him. But he's just a good storyteller too, and quite funny.

Me: So, that's the Innovators Can Laugh Podcast, just want to reiterate that to our listeners. Feel free to tap into that as a free resource that Eric has been gracious like myself, to have a podcast and share all of these great insights with you as our listeners.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Eric Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, Eric shared that the one quote that he always reverts to is, “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.” by Anais Nin And whenever he’s on frits about something or unsure about something, he always kind of revert to that quote. But that's his favourite quote. Have you ever heard that one before?

Me: I’ve never heard it, but I like it. It kind of reminds me of some of Brene Brown’s quotes.

Me: Now, I just want to thank you again, Eric for taking time out of your very busy schedule. What time is it there in Romania?

Eric shared that it’s 7:30 pm.

Me: Yeah, so, you're here with us at night, you could be with your family having dinner, playing cards, doing something way more fun, I'm sure and talking to me about customer experience. But we are truly grateful that you took the time out of your busy schedule to hop on this podcast and have this conversation with us. And we really learnt a lot about AI and of course your organization OptiMonk and different ways that we can look for opportunities to personalize the experience for the customers as well as engineering the customer journey in such a way that it makes it seamless and frictionless and just a better experience that at the end of it, the customer would want to do business with that organization again. So, thank you for sharing that, I'm sure listeners gained a great amount of knowledge and value from our conversation.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life by Rory Sutherland

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

View Details

Declan Ivory Intercom’s Vice President of Customer Support is an experienced senior leader with a passion for building and developing high-performing teams and applying digital technologies to support organizations through major business transformation.

Prior to sharing his operational expertise and strong leadership to support the growth of Intercom’s customer support team, over the last 10 years, Declan has held senior support leadership roles with Amazon Web Services, Tableau Software and Google Cloud.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to just share a little bit about themselves in their own words, how did you get to where you are today?

• So, for those of our listeners that don't know what Intercom is, could you tell them what your company does?

• So, AI, it's covers quite a bit of things. Could you tell our listeners maybe, I would say, two or three top areas that you think organisations need to focus on as it relates to AI? And maybe what are some of the skill sets?

• Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very a long time ago or even one that you read recently.

• Could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed.

Highlights

Declan’s Journey

Delcan shared that that’s a good question. So, he originally studied engineering and graduated as an electronic engineer and went straight into the kind of technology industry. And he’s stayed in the tech industry for the last 35 years. But one thing he kind of realized very quickly, one component engineering background that gave him a strong problem-solving skill, and two any business only lives for customers.

So, he’s always been obsessed by doing things for customers and making their life easier and delivering a better customer experience, that's kind of driven him from early on in his career.

And the result of ended up in various kinds of customer support roles. And in particular, over the last 10 years, he’s been working with organizations who are growing very fast, building out a compelling customer support experience, trying to apply technology to how they're enhancing and improving the customer experience during the support journey. So, he has had the opportunity to really work in high growth environments. And how he landed in the current role, he was kind of a little bit disappointed that at the speed at which the customer service or customer support industry was really adopting technology and felt like there was a gap there.

Some examples of businesses being very innovative, but it wasn't pervasive across the industry. And moving to an organization like Intercom, whose whole kind of raised data is about delivering customer support and having a compelling Customer Support Platform. It was an opportunity, one to work for an organization that was very innovative, and was really driving the technology capability within the customer service base. But also gave him the opportunity to use the things too that customers support are using as well, which meant that he could be a genuine voice to report back to the product team, and really implement a product roadmap, product direction, and really drive the level of transformation around how support is delivered using technology. And at the end of the day marrying technology and compelling human support to really drive a value-add experience for customers.

What is Intercom and What They Do?

Me: So, for those of our listeners that don't know what Intercom is, could you tell them what your company does?

Declan shared that Intercom is an Irish founded company, very much focused on delivering the next generation customer service platform, built for what they call an AI world. But very much recognising that combination of AI technology or automation, working in conjunction with human support that actually delivers the best customer experience possible.

That’s kind of is the focus of Intercom, it is building and delivering has stated, the next generation customer service platform. It's got a very strong heritage from a technology and innovation point of view.

For example, it was one of the first organisations to use messenger technology for allowing or enabling customer communications in support world, was very early in terms of adopting Chatbot, adopting AI ML to do kind of conversation analysis. And now is adopting kind of the latest generative AI capabilities well incorporating that into their platform.

Top Areas Organizations Need to Focus On as it Relates to AI

Me: So, AI, it's covers quite a bit of things. Could you tell our listeners maybe, I would say, two or three top areas that you think organizations need to focus on as it relates to AI? And maybe what are some of the skill sets because one of the things that they had mentioned when you were introduced to me was, organizations are taking on artificial intelligence, but they don't necessarily have the skill set to manage and integrate it fully with what they're offering to customers. So, could you share with us maybe some of the things that organizations need to look at before they even embrace that type of technology?

Declan shared that the first part of question, the three areas where he thinks AI can be applied, the first area is on customer engagement and really the advances that have happened in generative AI and technology like ChatGPT, etc. Now there's an opportunity for the AI interaction with a customer to actually feel a lot more genuine, authentic, more contextual, you're being able to leverage a level of reasoning within the technology that wasn't there before and a lot of chatbot technology.

So, the first area where he thinks the current manifestation of AI can be delivered is in delivering a better customer experience in dealing with that technology and that technology being able to automate a particularly transactions or issues that are very easy to resolve, you're taking a lot of friction out of those particular simple transactions. And yet, then being able to handle the work, the more complex transactions to human support team that have all the context that the AI engagement has gone through, understand the customer situation. And it's basically a thing that handover to the human support funding.

Secondary, for that human support team themselves with AI tools we can help that team to drive a lot of efficiency and to help them do their job and in a much better way. Even simple things when able to prompt, what they call Smart Reply is the trying to understand the customer problem and suggest possible solution for the support rep. So, that they can then make an informed decision on what's the best solution, applying their own subject matter expertise to the guidance that's been given by the AI co-pilot. And basically, you'll ultimately drive a better solution for the customer.

There's even simple tooling that AI can provide, like summarizing a case or a conversation that customers had particularly important if you're doing 24/7 support, and you're handing over from one agent to another, you'll be able to have a tool to actually generate a summary of what has happened today, in a very kind of concise and factual way and use that as the handover mechanism. Again, just makes the life of the support team a lot easier.

And the third area where AI can be applied is actually running a support operation. So, they can use a AI technology to really understand the nature of the work that's coming into you whether that cases or conversations being able to analyse those that scale and volume, and look at the trends that are appearing there and use that and to drive improvements, whether that's in the product, whether it's in your support processes, whether it's within the field that you have within your team, those operations inside, the third area where AI can be applied and really drive value. They're kind of the three areas where AI particularly as it is today can be applied and drive a lot of value.

The second question you had, which was around what skills that are required. And that's a really interesting question, because there's lots of people are focusing on “Well, you take it all the transactions and your handling them in an automated way, does that mean that the job of the support rep is going away?” Absolutely not, like the job of the support rep is actually changing with AI, they're changing in a very positive way.

One, you're taking out a lot of the easy transactions or the easy issues, which ultimately don't provide the billing work for support agents that you like the more complex issues where they can actually demonstrate their subject matter expertise, they can hone their skills, hone their problem-solving skills and effort, they're actually providing far more fulfilling work to support reps in that environment.

From a yield point of view, problem solving skills are really important. Generally, if customers are coming through the support team is for the more complex issues. And generally, they're expecting a level of empathy, a level of understanding of them as a customer. So, you've got to have your support rep to can really understand the customer context, provide a personalized experience as a result of that. And that's kind of the traditional support role is changing, but new roles are emerging.

Well, a very simple example, like he’s hired in what he calls a Conversation Designer in the last few months, because ultimately, if customers are interacting with automated technology, and then dealing with a human support person, you really want to make sure that it’s a seamless experienced.

And you've got to constantly look at what is that customer experience, is it actually as seamless as it needs to be, is the handover almost seamless from a customer point of view, and you're taking full advantage of all the context that has been gained through the automated that was dealing with that the customer, the customer does not have to duplicate information, you'll actually feel like they're being heard from the very onset of their engagement with you as a support organization.

But that has to be designed in, it doesn't happen by chance, like people kind of feel “Oh, I can turn on ChatGPT. Or I can turn on the AI technology and it just worked.” It worked to a fashion but if you really want to make it stand out for you as the business and really drive value for your customers, you got to be very thoughtful around that whole conversation flow. And you've got to understand that not everything can be automated. And you have to think about the human support piece as well. And it's really about AI augmenting and supplementing that human support piece.

The roles like conversation designer, or a new role, prompt engineering, how can you educate your customers, like to interface with your AI technology in the best way to actually get the maximum value back in terms of getting their questions answered, etc.

So, it's a really, really interesting space at the moment because it's evolving. No one has all the answers, there is the blueprint around exactly how this works. We're almost creating the runbook as we go along and adaptive technology and really understand what that mean from a customer experience point of view. What does it mean from a corporate point of view as well. So, from that point of view, new skills are required, the AI technology is only as good as the information and knowledge that it has access to, who generates that knowledge and information, our human support team, again, much more emphasis on our team developing knowledge articles, developing knowledge artefacts that can be used by the AI.

And that’s really important as well, like you've got to make sure that you've got a very strong problem solving mindset in your team, that they're really thinking about, “Okay, well customers had this issue come through to me the human support rep, how can I ensure that I can provide knowledge back into the ecosystem that makes sure if another customer has the problem, they're not going to come through another the automated.” That again, another skill set that the whole knowledge management, knowledge creation skill set is really important in support world. So, his own hypothesis is that support role is actually going to become far more valuable in this world of AI first and there are new skills, new capabilities required. So, it's going to be really, really interesting space for people from a career point of view.

Me: Very good. So, all of what you said a while ago, I even hear things like new careers coming up, new opportunities, the scope is so wide for persons who are emerging and trying to figure out what they want to do in life. I mean, when you think about where the world was 20 years ago, and some of the careers that exist today, I'm sure 20 years from now, there are careers that are, as you mentioned, just emerging that are going to become top areas that people would want to be pursuing in like we're in 2023 now, so 20 years from now will be 2043, what would be really existing by then?

Declan shares that absolutely, there's going to be a whole new set of skill sets required. And it evolve, like when technology has emerged at any stage over the last number of decades, people have been able to adapt technology and change the nature of the roles that they undertook.

With that technology is complementing roles and augmenting roles as detect them with AI like complementing the human support experience for our customers and driving the ultimate value for customers. And that's a really exciting because it can be frustrating by the pace of adoption of technology, particularly with the customer support industry. He thinks by and large, we deal with customers the same way we dealt with them a decade or two decades ago. And now there's an opportunity to really transform how support is delivered and that for him is really, really exciting.

App, Website or Tool that Declan Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Declan shared that he could be very flipping and say Intercom itself, you're probably looking for a different answer. So, while their team do use Intercom, they really love it, he kind of took that back and there are lots of kind of productivity tools he could mentioned, but he’s actually going to give one, it's probably maybe a little bit of a surprising answer. But LinkedIn for him is a really, really vital tool for a whole lot of reasons. Like in the support world, it's all about connections and networking and very often in LinkedIn, you get access to people who have new ideas, new opinions, they're sharing thought leadership particularly around AI and customer service, etc.

So, it's been a really, really rich ground for getting information around.

What are people really considering as best practice?

What are they thinking in terms of some of the challenges that they're facing when they adopt AI?

Getting those connections and getting access to some of the top leadership articles that are appearing in LinkedIn, for him at the moment, makes LinkedIn really compelling. It's also really useful for there are sometimes situations where you may really need to reach out to customers in a different way, so maybe not through your traditional channels, but you want to kind of have a different channel to talk to maybe someone in a customer’s organization that you deal with in an ongoing basis, LinkedIn is great just for getting those network set up and actually engaging customers in a different way.

And then from a recruitment point of view, like understanding what talent is out there, who are looking for roles, what are people's experiences, who's a good match for maybe a new opportunity that you have?

So, for him, when he took a step back, he thinks of where is your productivity, etc. And actually LinkedIn, the tool that he uses most on a day to day basis, the company and that's what he does in the role there.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Declan

When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Declan shared that the first one is a book called Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear. And this is really around the fact that you can drive improvements very incrementally. And he talks about improving 1% per day and how that accumulates over time. And it really gets you thinking about changing your habits, and making very small changes in how you are, but that ultimately delivering your very beneficial result, at the end of the day.

The other book is a book called The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller. And this is around really allowing you to focus on what's the most important thing that you need to do right here, right now, not that you neglect everything else, but you make sure that you give the right priority to the thing that's going to have the most impact right here and right now.

And then the final one book called The Creative Problem Solver: 12 Smart Tools to Solve Any Business Challenge by Ian Atkinson. And that gives a framework of 12 problem solving techniques that he found really useful to share with teams and get them thinking about how can they approach different problems in different ways. And that framework of 12 tools or 12 approaches ultimately, if you apply one or two of them to a particular problem, you will come up with some very creative solutions, very creative approaches to actually solving a particular problem. They are three books that he’s kind of consistently gone back to in his career, and he’s found them very impactful both for him and for teams that he’s been working with.

What Declan is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Declan shared that it goes back to the excitement that he talked about applying technology. So, at Intercom, they have built what they call an AI bot called Fin, that's the name. And he’s been really kind of excited by the fact that he’s been able to get early access technologies that they were the first beta customer for them. And that kind of thing that he’s working on is how can they apply Fin in the context of their own business, and really drive a different customer experience. And he's got all the team engaged in that, again, for adoption of any technology, you really got to get your team excited, motivated by it, you’ve got to allow them to influence how you introduce that technology. That's kind of the biggest thing that he’s working on at the moment, is allowing him to develop different perspectives around how you can apply this technology, getting his team involved, getting their insights around, what does it mean from a customer perspective? What does it mean from a teammate perspective, and really beginning to build out, what does a support operation of the future look like when you are in what they call an AI first or an AI led world.

And it's really interesting, because a lot of things will change around the metric that you use to measure your team, the scale that the team need, how you think about capacity planning, there's lots of different things that can lead into building an operation of the future in this world.

And that, for him, is the thing that kind of energizing him the most and allowing him to learn the most as well. And equally for his team, like everyone in the team was really learning through this process and they're really being very thoughtful around how they can introduce this technology in the right way. So, deploying Fin for their own use case, and then to coordinate their customers who are using Fin, that's where his staff and the team are really focused. And he would say he actually don't think he’s been this energized in work for many decades.

Where Can We Find Nathan Online

LinkedIn - decivory

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Declan Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Declan shared that he has a quote from Henry Ford. And the quote is, “Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently.” And he thinks that really captured the benefit and the essence of the failure, everyone fails and he thinks people need to be comfortable with failure, once you're learning from it and in Henry Ford words, moving forward in a more intelligent way on the back of that learning.

Me: Now Declan, I just want to extend our deepest appreciation and gratitude to you for taking time out of your very busy schedule, for hopping on our podcast and sharing some of your insights, sharing a little bit about what your organization does, about what artificial intelligence is bringing to different industries, what are some of the opportunities that exist not just from a development and customer experience perspective, but even in terms of new career opportunities and developments that can emerge out of this new phase that we're going into. It was really insightful, and I really thank you so much for joining us today for this interview.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear

· The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller

· The Creative Problem Solver: 12 Smart Tools to Solve Any Business Challenge by Ian Atkinson

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience Webinar – New Date

Register Here

View Details

Nathan Yeung is an experienced marketing strategist with over 10 plus years of expertise in advising B2B businesses. Throughout his career, Nathan has helped numerous companies build their marketing teams from scratch, delivering successful go-to-market deployments and launching new products into the market.

Nathan's diverse background brings a unique perspective to the marketing world. Trained in marketing, he has also worked in finance and management consulting, providing him with a comprehensive understanding of business operations and strategy. Nathan's ability to think outside the box has helped his clients to stand out in their industries, and his expertise has been recognized by numerous organizations over the years.

Questions

• Could you tell our audience a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

• Could you share with our listeners kind of how you advise your clients to kind of close that gap and make it a more seamless and frictionless experience for the customer?

• What are some things maybe three things that as a top marketer that you would advise your customers in terms of ensuring that they're able to keep their existing clientele, and of course, attract new customers and still maintain a quality experience?

• Now let's say our audience, they're looking to build their marketing team from scratch, what are let's say three or four qualities that you believe your team in marketing needs to possess in order to be successful?

• Could you share with our audience what's the one online resource tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read, it could be a book that you read very recently or one you read a very long time ago, but it has had a very big impact on you.

• Can you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed, or you got off track, and this quote kind of just helps to get you back on track.

Highlights

Nathan’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey in their own words. So, could you tell our audience a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

Nathan shared that it's a bit of a long journey. So, he originally went to school for entrepreneurship with a specialty in marketing. And afterwards, he actually ended up going into finance. So, it was a bit of a massive change. Managing conditions and kind of really making sure that the acquisition is transitioned, well, kind of synergies and managing sometimes moving the business model into completely different markets. And one of the things that I had fundamentally seen in almost every single one of his jobs and careers was how important marketing was, and also how he felt that he didn't feel like marketing was really getting as much attention as it really needed.

And he often felt like a lot of the people who had the money or had the authority to make decisions really kind of didn't appreciate marketing. And he thinks that came from a couple of different perspectives. One, he doesn’t think they quite understood marketing. And two, he thinks just in the sense of the pool of practitioners, he thinks the pool of the practitioners are quite small. And so, he thinks there's a general under appreciation for marketing and that's kind of one of the things that drove him to it, obviously, being trained. And even while doing all these jobs, he was always doing kind of marketing things on the side.

So, he’s always kind of enjoyed marketing, and kind of after his management consulting stint, he started Find Your Audience and really focusing on what he believes is what he calls it sustainable and practical marketing, and the very operational versus that of a typical creative shop.

Advise for a Seamless and Frictionless Experience for Customers

Me: So, can you share with our audience, based on your experience, you've been in this area for quite some time. And I do believe marketing is very much directly related to customer experience. One of my greatest pet peeves is organizations invest so much in getting the name out there, the brand out there, the image, the product and then when you actually have to interface with them, whether it be on the phone, or through their app, or through a website or face to face, what they've advertised in terms of what you're getting and what was in the marketing, there is a totally different disconnect, there's no correlation. So, could you share with our listeners kind of how you advise your clients to kind of close that gap and make it a more seamless and frictionless experience for the customer?

Nathan stated that that's a great point. And he always talks about customer experience, because you're absolutely right, it's incredibly jarring for a lot of customers to go into a funnel, be sold on some particular benefits, then obviously purchase that product, and really not have a great way to experience those benefits in a seamless way. Therefore, really making that experience quite negative or some say you want things frictionless, this very having a lot of friction. He tells a lot of clients that when you sell something, the customer experience is directly correlated, obviously with retention and kind of the attrition rate of your customers. And it's incredibly important for you to be as aligned as possible, but also as self-serving as possible to the customer in the sense of those benefits and making sure that they know how to experience those benefits, how are they going to get access to those benefits and how they can essentially get what they need to drive a successful outcome from that purchase from whatever that expectation is. And a lot of clients tend to overlook that because he thinks a lot of clients are very, very focused on just gaining that acquisition of a customer versus really making sure that they nurture that customer.

Me: Agreed. So, it's all about the acquisition and not necessarily about the experience.

Nathan shared that the experience is an afterthought. And especially with newer companies, that's very much the case, he thinks with more mature companies, you'll see that they focus a little bit more on customer success teams. And those customer success teams, and product managers have an actual focus on that customer onboarding process to make sure that experience is great.

Keeping Existing Clientele and Attract New Customers and Still Maintain a Quality Experience

Me: Now, let's say if you could give our listeners maybe three things, we're already halfway through 2023. And so, they're looking on ensuring that they can continue to sustain the business that they already have and they’re looking to acquire new customers, what are some things maybe three things that as a top marketer that you would advise your customers in terms of ensuring that they're able to keep their existing clientele, and of course, attract new customers and still maintain a quality experience?

Nathan shared that he thinks the number one thing is it sounds so simple, but he finds that a lot of clients don't even do this is really in HR, there are these pulse surveys, and these pulse surveys are really to get a pulse of your employees. He thinks very much when you have customers, there should be a pulse survey for your customers. Some companies obviously, do this by annual NPS surveys, Net Promoter Score surveys, for those that don't know what NPS means. But it is really just important to have a kind of a quarterly checkpoint with your customer and saying, “Hey, how are you doing, I really just wanted to call you today, is there anything that I can do differently?”

And this needs to be very clear, you have to say differently, because you don't want to imply something negative or positive, you really actually just want to ask for their advice. And typically, if there's anything different, that means it's something that they probably want. So, he thinks really leading into that conversation with is anything that we can do differently is really, really important. And he thinks that's a great way just to maintain relationships with your current clients, but two, to constantly get a great level of feedback on your current business, to ensure that you're always keeping up that level of service or level quality that hopefully, you desire to have.

The second thing is you have to just respect that everyone is busy. That also means everyone's quite lazy. And he doesn't mean that in a negative way, he just means that in a kind of general human sense that humans tend to have a lazy factor to them, and you have to really handhold them through any activity. So, when you're doing these surveys, when you're doing these things, just know that it is not a priority for them. And that you have to be incredibly patient, and making sure that whether this is the survey you're asking them to do, or it's the onboarding process, don't assume that they actually know what they're doing. And be mindful to actually build out anything to help them understand what they need to do in order to get that outcome again.

And so, if it's that survey, make sure that that survey is incredibly easy to do. If it's a customer form, make sure that customer form has a loom video talking about how to answer the questions. If it's an NPS score, again, also send them another loom video just showing what an NPS score looks like because they also maybe don't want to go into a huge form, or survey and waste their time. So again, kind of have this humility in the sense that every one of your customers has a lot of things to do, they're naturally lazy, that the best way you can get their attention is by making sure that you do everything you can to make sure that that expected journey is visible, and they know exactly what they're getting into.

Qualities for Building a Marketing Team

Me: Brilliant. Those are really, really good points. Thanks for sharing, Nathan. Now let's say our audience wanted to build out their own marketing team. They're looking to build their marketing team from scratch, what are let's say three or four qualities that you believe your team in marketing needs to possess in order to be successful?

Nathan stated that that is an incredibly difficult question. For anyone that's listening, he’s going to preface this that marketing is incredibly complex right now. And they're a firm that firmly believes that they do not prescribe solutions. And why this is really important to those three or four qualities that Yanique is mentioning, is because those three-four qualities really are dependent on your organization. And he knows that's not a great answer, because he’s sure you guys want a simple solution. So, he'll try to make it simple, but he'll still preface that it is really going to be dependent on your situation.

So, one of the number one things that he thinks is difficult for a lot of businesses is content generation. And so, he feels like if you were to be forced into decision where you have to hire someone, or you're really looking for someone to come in the organisation, find someone who actually has a lot of experience in content generation, and that can mean a lot of things. So, content generation could be social, content generation could be producing videos on Tiktok or reels on Instagram. Content generation could also mean the written form of content such as search engine optimization, and creating authority articles, authority blogs and things that really speak about your industry. He thinks that's one core skill set that no matter the company, you're going to get value from that.

The other thing that he thinks is really important is to find someone that maybe has some experience on brand. So, if you're a B2C company, you're really going to want someone who has a creative background with a bit of art direction, because when your B2C, creative plays a massive role and you standing out in the market.

Now, he will then take that back, that statement, saying that if you're in B2B, while he does think having a creative background is incredibly important, probably what's even more important than that in a B2B business is someone that's a product marketer. And so, a product marketer is really going to be that person that's going to help translate your services, solutions, packages, products into real tangible materials that are going to be benefit leading and can be brought to the market. So, they're the ones that are going to really create all the assets required for you to be successful in selling your product into that market and they're really hyper focused at doing that. They're also hyper focused on getting customer feedback, and making sure that that feedback loop is actively going into your marketing materials, and addressing any of those pain points and friction points that your customers are having.

So, it’s a long-winded answer so he'll make it simple. Again, content, if you just want to be general, find someone with great content experience, that's going to pay you some dividends. And if you're a little bit more of a complex business, he would recommend first prioritising what you're doing, then kind of finding an individual who has those qualities.

Me: Okay, so your answer kind of piqued my interest a little. And I'd like to dig a little bit further as it relates to content generation. So, let's say I have somebody internally in the organization already who has some shown a little bit of potential as it relates to marketing. They don't have a lot of experience in content generation, but I see potential for them to be able to be strong in that area. Are there certain things that someone can do to become a better content generator?

Nathan shared that he thinks the best way for them to become the best content generator is really to focus on first, what form of content right. And the first question before you go down that route is you have to ask yourself is that form of content generation, the form that is going to be the most influential for your business. So, for a lot of people, they've jumped on the bandwagon of like search engine optimization, and search engine optimization in particular, businesses make sense, because the traffic numbers in the search numbers make sense.

If you're in a hyper focused niche type of product or service, you may not actually get a lot of benefit from doing SEO. So, you might be more interested in doing like videos, or reels or a podcast, for example. And so really, it's first, let's focus on what asset do we actually need to create content for and make sure that's first aligned. And if you think that person has the capabilities to do that particular type of content and asset, then let's go ahead and figure out what that looks like.

Now, for them to get better at that, it would be simply it's doing research into what the market is looking for, right? The reality is, is that he hates to say this, because he thinks it's like an overplayed thing, you want to go viral, like that's the ideal thing.

If you have a great article that goes viral, that's fantastic.

If you have a great reel that goes viral, that's fantastic.

If you have a great video on YouTube that goes viral, that's fantastic.

We're all looking for that virality.

And so, the game plan for that content person is really, okay, so I'm good at this type of content, this type of asset for this type of channel, let's go find out what are people really interested in this space, and really just looking at those hashtags, looking at those influencers that are doing well and trying to identify trends in what they're doing, and creating a small framework to create that content.

There is no perfect former all for virality, there is to a certain extent, if you want to do really outlandish thing, like give out a million dollars to people randomly on the street, that's easy, but no one has that kind of money all the time.

So, he thinks having that person just do that research in the specific channel and understanding their market and then trying to copy that and he knows that sounds terrible, but they have to learn, so he would suggest just copying that content.

And then more importantly, he thinks the number one thing is getting efficient at content generation. He thinks content generation itself is easy, being incredibly efficient is actually the hard part.

So, can that person learn to create 12 to 15 pieces of assets in an hour? And if they can, that's amazing, that's fantastic, that's incredibly valuable. You don't want this person creating one piece of content a day, that's not going to be effective for any business.

So, one, figure out, does whatever the content match your market. Two, have them research whether or not you can actually create content efficiently and effectively for that market. And then three, optimize the living crap out of that operational process so that that person can produce as much content as possible.

App, Website or Tool that Nathan Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Nathan shared that everyone's going to hate this but he’s going to say ChatGPT. So, he’s going to say that, he’s going to stop there, because everyone's going to roll their eyes and say, “Good, great.” So, ChatGPT, obviously, please use it.

Now, he'll actually provide a much better source. I have Sunday Product Hunt Days. And people go well, what does that mean? It means every Sunday, he goes to www.producthunt.com and he looks at the latest listings. And the reason he looks at those latest listings is because these are all bootstrapped entrepreneurs creating mini SAAS products, solving mini problems. And it's a great way one, for you to find new SAAS products that could obviously benefit your business.

But two, it's also kind of an indication of the pain points in the market. Generally speaking, these entrepreneurs who are bootstrapped, who are producing these things are actually solving a pain point. There's another question of whether or not that pain point is large enough for it to be a lucrative business. But regardless, it's a pain point. So, going on product on every Sunday, reviewing the latest releases for the week, it's kind of a great way for you to get a feel of the market, but two, it's also a great way for you to find new SAAS tools that no one knows about that you can use to benefit your organisation.

Me: Okay, I've never heard of that strategy before. And I'm sure our listeners will be impacted in a positive way from that strategy, because I'm definitely going to try this Sunday for sure.

Nathan stated that it's lovely, you learn not only is it a bit of like a new centre, too, because a lot of these bootstrap entrepreneurs are using the latest API's, the latest generative AI things, the latest language models. And so, you'll end up learning just from reading the descriptions what they're doing, that will also keep you up to date with kind of the latest and greatest things too.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Nathan

When asked about books that have had a big impact, Nathan shared that one of the his favourite books by far has been Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t (Rockefeller Habits 2.0) by Verne Harnish. Scaling Up is really a beautiful book on how to scale your business. And for any of those listeners right now that are thinking about scaling up your business, he recommends it, like absolutely hands down. If you're looking to build your business, look and read at Scaling Up, the book fundamentally just changed how much he really thought about structure. And as much us entrepreneurs love the idea of having kind of a very flat and horizontal organization, the reality is that scale creates problems.

And when you have scale, you have to have structure. And if you don't have structure, you really can't scale particular parts of your function because the reality is that there's just a certain point where you actually really need to have somewhat hyper focus doing only a portion of that operational process.

So, that book really aligned his thinking on what is required to build and sustain a scalable business. And two, it just gave him a lot of frameworks to help build his own organization, they're at 25 employees, they grew from 14 employees in just like less than 6 to 7 months. And if you think that having more employees is going to be possible in a horizontal manner, he can say absolutely good on you. But you're going to have a lot of leaks. So, highly recommend that book, he’s read it multiple times, he’s shared it with his business friends. And so, he would recommend taking a look and lucky enough, you have a digital, you have audible, you have the paper book, you can get whatever version you want, it's got great exercises, and it's really going to broaden your perspective on thinking big.

What Nathan is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Nathan shared that what he’s really, really excited about right now is he’s a little bit of a like coder in the back end. And he loves creating small little apps for himself. For those listeners, it has never been easier for you to create small tools for yourself. And if you haven't learned to code at all, that's okay, it's not that difficult, it is certainly a time investment. But he would really recommend taking a look at some Python courses, and utilizing ChatGPT, or any other generative AI tool to help you generate code because it's never been easier for you to automate random things that are kind of important to you.

For example, he has a little script that kind of does product research for him. And so, what he does is, if he’s looking to buy maybe the latest camera, or the latest ring light, or the latest headphones or earbuds, he simply has ChatGPT just kind of go out into the internet and produce him a summary. So, think about it as on the call Coles notes for literally everything you want in life, you want to know the best baby bottle, it'll do the research for you, you want to know the best soda stream, it'll do the research for you.

And you can really do this for any part of your life, and you can do it now in a fraction of the time. So, he thinks that's the one really fun thing is actually creating these mini apps for himself, and getting a bit more proficient at that because it really is a time saving activity.

Where Can We Find Nathan Online

Website – www.findyouraudience.online

Instagram - @fya.marketingbytes

LinkedIn – Nathan Yeung

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Nathan Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Nathan shared that he has so many quotes. One of the most recent ones, and he learned this from one of his clients who had faced an unfortunate event, he's a very, very smart man, he mentioned that his wife was going through something quite ill and he had no control over it. And he was very upset, and he dealt with that for many years.

And one of the things that is really important is, “You can't control outcome, you can only control process.” So, this idea of going into conversations with this negative feeling, this negative energies is really not required, you can only control what you're doing towards that conversation, you can't actually control the outcome of that conversation, you'd like to think you can, but you can't.

And so, letting go of that control, which is honestly a very much like an ego thing, it's almost, someone could say ego death is just realizing you can't control, can't control everything in the world and letting go of control is definitely one thing that he’s certainly still learning but it's something that he has to kind of really lean into in tough times in the business.

The second one that he has also from the same dinner that he heard was, “The grass is greener only where you water it.” And so, there's a long folktale behind that. And you guys can probably find that online. But it's very much on the standpoint that we always like to think the grass is greener, but the reality is, is the grass is only greener where you water it. So, the grass is greener and the folktale behind that has two meanings. One is obviously sometimes you forget to see the grass that you have watered. But two, he thinks in the more nuanced new age perspective is it is only going to be greener if you focus on it. So, he thinks both of those things are really important and he thinks that's important just for your day-to-day activities, but also for your business.

Me: So, we just want to say thank you. Thank you so much, Nathan for taking time out of your very busy schedule to hop on this podcast with us and have this awesome conversation about marketing and how it's connected to customer experience and why it's important for us to ensure that we're looking at the entire process, the journey of the experience, not just selling or marketing the product or service, but also ensuring that our customers have a seamless experience, a frictionless experience.

And of course, the qualities that you shared with us as it relates to ensuring that we have the right people on our marketing team, depending on our organization type. So, the conversation was great, the information was great and totally insightful. I know I gain a lot from it, and I'm sure our listeners will gain a lot from it when it is released. So, thank you so much.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t (Rockefeller Habits 2.0) by Verne Harnish

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Rich Edwards is the CEO of Mindspan Systems, helping community financial institutions transform themselves with data driven strategies and technologies. Community banks and credit unions have incredibly strong connections with their local customers when they're in the branch, Rich's expertise is crafting customer experiences to strengthen these relationships outside the branches walls.

After serving as a captain in the US Army, Rich went on to IBM spending over 20 years working with financial institutions on Wall Street and across the world. As the Product Management Lead overseeing the launch of the IBM Watson Developer Cloud, he helped financial service firms leverage market leading analytics, AI, and machine learning approaches, which is so relevant in this time that we're operating in.

Questions

• In your own words, could you tell us a little bit about their journey, how did you get to where you are today?

• And since you're an expert in the finance sector, could you give us maybe two to three, I would say maybe points or influences that organisations would be looking into in terms of ensuring that they are listening to their customers, they are adding value to their customers experiences.

• If you could share with our listeners maybe one piece of advice that you'd give them, we're basically halfway through the year. But let's say you were to give them one piece of advice where data is concerned in their businesses, what would that piece of advice be to kind of propel them in the direction of what you believe is the best way to go?

• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

Highlights

Rich’s Journey

Me: We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share a little bit about their journey. I know we read your bio, and it kind of gives us a summary of who you are, but in your own words, could you tell us how did you get to where you are today?

Rich shared that it's a rather unlikely past. Like you said, he started off his career in military and this was in the 90s, so it was a completely different experience than it is today. And did a little short stint working in manufacturing, in communications, in the fibre optic cable industry. And then ended up at IBM and he was working in the software business in IBM and spent the 10-11 years on the enterprise side and worked an awful lot with large banks, financial institutions, the population side like Social Security Administration, several national banks, federal banks, exchanges, things like that, that had like hundreds of millions of entities to keep track of.

And around the end of 2013, he got approached to join a new business unit in IBM that eventually became IBM Watson, it was the artificial intelligence business unit. And up until that point, it had largely been around some ongoing knowledge management solutions that were tied to healthcare. And this is kind of what you saw a lot of the public facing material with commercials and interviews like that, was around some of the work that was being done in cancer research.

And they were looking to build a new solution where their partners could build on top of the technology. So, instead of buying a ready-made solution from IBM, which was very much in the model of the traditional professional services solution or product, they wanted to give them a platform that they could build on top of.

And this was a somewhat novel idea in 2013, there were some things that Google was doing, particularly along the lines of voice recognition that was kind of tied to their mobile play with the Android ecosystem, but nobody was really doing say natural language processing as a service, certainly not as a commercial offering at that point. And so, that's kind of what they built out, that's what they did and is very much at the cutting edge of what was being done at the time.

And it was a really, really interesting time to be involved in that. And once they kind of got through the initial offering part, which was really what his job there was, was to figure out how to make all the cogs work inside an organisation like IBM to bring a new product to market. It became about the customers and the customer facing side of it, and particularly beginning to explore all of the use cases that were out there and how they could apply what was becoming a much more accessible technology to a lot of places that really didn't have access to it before and certainly didn't have access to a lot of the technology that was sitting inside IBM and IBM Research.

And him having had this background in financial services and banking, he kind of became like the banking guy, right, it made all the trips to a lot of the large financial institutions and government entities and in the public facing side. And so, that was that was really, really exciting to kind of be part of that. He ended up doing that for almost four years, built out a couple of different teams, they had a developer evangelism team, which was basically helping their customers build on top of the technology and that was a somewhat novel approach, for at least this part of the business for IBM. And so, it was a lot of like doing brand new things. So, that was really interesting and really exciting.

And in 2018, he really thought there was a lot of potential around this and didn't really see how he was going to be able to exploit that or take it any further within IBM in the direction they wanted me to go. And so, he ended up leaving, and he bought Mindspan Systems. And the reason he bought Mindspan Systems was they had a very long background in hard data skills, data analytics, data manipulation, data warehousing, all of the things around how do you take control of an organization or help an organization take control of their data and get the most out of it.

And he really saw that this is where the future was going to be for a lot of organizations to be able to get ahead, meaning the technology around artificial intelligence, the technology around things like natural language processing, and kind of what you see today, with large language models like ChatGPT, etc. That layer of it is quickly becoming commoditized, it's not to say that it's not exciting, that there's not a lot there. But that's not where all the value is going to be, the value isn't going to be in the way in which you're able to configure in the UI of the date of everything, it's going to be in the data itself.

So, the individual companies that are able to control and harness and leverage their data in a way utilizing technologies like parts like with metals and other things that are available out there, that's where the value is going to be. And so, it's having those data skills and the data capabilities in house to leverage your own data, your first party data, that's where he believes, we're beginning to see an awful lot of evidence of this, that's where a lot of the value is going to be for companies in how do they reach out to their customers.

Listening and Adding Value to Customer Experience

Me: So, that was really, really good, great insight on your journey and how you got to where you are today. I was really intrigued by you focusing on the fact that the data is what will drive how you have the conversations with your customers. And since you're an expert in the finance sector, could you give us maybe two to three, I would say maybe points or influences that organizations would be looking into in terms of ensuring that they are listening to their customers, they are adding value to their customers experiences, like what are customers in that space looking for now?

Rich shared that he'll give a couple of examples and talking about it from banking and financial services. But these trends are much broader than that, this isn't like an industry specific or only limited to those types of companies.

There is a huge consumer preference for personalization, meaning people want to be treated like individuals, they want to be understood and valued by the companies and the brands that they do business with. When they begin to feel that, it's almost like a herding cattle situation, and that they're unable to get the service level that they believe they deserved or what they thought they were signing up for, that’s a good way to ruin customer satisfaction and ruin the value of a brand.

There certainly are aspects of where very highly leveraged, highly automated industrialized processes work. You look at like at Amazon for example, famously, there's no phone number for Amazon. You have a problem, you are never going to get somebody on the phone to help you resolve that. And by and large, it seems like, at least in the US, people have agreed that that's the deal that they have of customer service for the convenience and the price advantage of what they get.

Now, in return, they get very good products, they sell this as a service, product recommendation, next best offer like they're very good at that, they are able to leverage the information they have about the individual consumers to continue to be relevant to them, they continue to be someone that they go, their go to. Well, that's one example of that.

Now, he will say in the financial services space, particularly community banking, their business model looks a lot more like a retail organization than it does say, a Wall Street bank. And the reason for that is the long legacy is the local branch, the local experience of going in and working with a Teller or working with a local banker for your financial transaction, whether you're getting a mortgage, or dealing with your day to day checking, or bill pay situation or a car loan, you have this place that you can go to and go in and meet them and the experience of that for community banks, a lot of these institutions are over 100 years old and they have very carefully honed that experience.

When you go into a bank or credit union like that, you're dealing with someone who works for a local organization, they are all the way up through management your neighbours, they understand where you live, what's going on in your community, what it's like to be in that experience to deal with the situations that you ran, or the opportunities that you have. That's why you see things like community financial institutions are way over indexed on business lines in commercial real estate, which is very much a local business, and participation in small business administration loans, because they're tied into that local community.

They know things, they are much closer to their customers than large regional or national banks are. And they leverage that and that's their experience, where that seems to fall down for them is when you leave the branch, when you're not there in front of the Teller or not at the drive thru, and not at one of their ATMs, but you're dealing through the web or through a partner or through their app, that level of personalized services begins to fall off, it begins to be not as sharp and crisp as it is in branch. And that's where he believes there's a major opportunity for companies like this to improve both the customer experience but also their differentiation, their ability to stay relevant compared to much larger, much more well financed institutions.

Me: It's interesting you said that it falls off, the service is not the same, do you think it's because it lacks a human component? So, that personal touch that you get when you're in branch talking to a live human being is a completely different interaction if you're dealing with an application, or you're dealing with a website.

Rich agreed, absolutely. And part of this is up until even through the Great Recession, he’s trying to remember, he doesn't have it off top his head, but even through about 2014-2015, a good chunk of community business was in person, it was foot traffic in the branch, it was certainly dropping off. But then you saw this big influx of investment dollars that went into financial technology or FinTech industry, and that started around 2018 and that slowly began to kind of erode their relevance, their position in the market. The two big ones there that come to mind are in the peer-to-peer payments segment, so Venmo and then later Cash App had this incredibly explosive growth where they just kind of stepped right in front of what would normally be a cash or transaction that might involve your bank into this completely separate thing that was mobile first, mobile only and began to see more and more relevance for companies like this to stand in place of at least a slice of what the services a traditional bank would provide.

And then COVID, and then everything fell over and it just accelerated everything nearby 5 to 7 years. So, they're in that position now, where this incredible experience that they're able to provide in person, they've lost that advantage, or at least from a percentage of time percentage of customers that they're able to get in front of, and the core providers for community banks that do their core banking, how to think like ERP for banking.

For banks this size, there's only a handful of providers. In fact, he thinks the top 3 have about an 80%/85% market penetration. So, it's not quite a monopoly, but it's all with gobbly. And they are notorious for being very slow to offer new offerings to them.

So, this need to say, well, we need to be able to translate this great in person experience that we have into our digital channels, they're hampered by that, they're not provided the tools there. And there's plenty of tools out in the market for, but most of them are geared towards more an online retailer or a brick and mortars retail that has an online channel, it's more geared towards a retail transaction, which is very different from banking.

Different enough that you're either going to find a lot of these institutions, either just going without, and skipping it, or trying to contort themselves into a set of offerings and tools that really wasn't built for them, and is suboptimal, and they spend a lot of time trying to make it work and it really isn't. So, from a customer engagement standpoint, there really is a hole in the market for financial services particularly when it comes to that engagement level of customers, the customer facing their right.

Using Data to Propel Business

Me: If you could share with our listeners maybe one piece of advice that you'd give them, we're basically halfway through the year. But let's say you were to give them one piece of advice where data is concerned in their businesses, what would that piece of advice be to kind of propel them in the direction of what you believe is the best way to go?

Rich shared that technology is great, it has benefited society immensely. But there's always a mistake to kind of engage with or buy or try out technology for technology's sake. And as a marketer or as an entrepreneur or somebody who's running a company, you always kind of have to take a first principles approach to it and think about, from a customer standpoint, what problem am I solving here? And how is technology going to help me do that better or do it in a more efficient manner? So, you always want to kind of put it through that lens, you need to be a little bit of a pragmatist when it comes to this.

We're sitting here now at the end of the second quarter of 2023, massive proliferation of the use of ChatGPT and things like it in a lot of different use cases. And a lot of them when you kind of dig deep into the layer of it, they kind of look like a hammer looking for a nail, that is really neat, it does some cool things, but it's not really in service of probably a persistent or an important problem, either for the company or for the customer.

And so, really being to layer that on there and use that as a lens for how do you evaluate this? How do I evaluate what I'm doing? That's an important consideration.

On the data side, he will say, just in general, and it's especially true for regulated industries, like financial services and like healthcare in particular, but the data that you have about your customers, about your market, about how your industry works, the bigger the data that is not held by anybody else. Understand that that's becoming increasingly a valuable asset. That's going to be something that even if you don't have a clear use case today or clear path for how you can leverage data today, understand that that's only going to get more and more valuable, first party data, the data that you have about your business and your customers only gets more valuable, as things like the commoditization of artificial intelligence, and other aspects of it get broader and broader.

Think of it this way, the market for writing a boring press release effectively the price for that has gone to zero. Doing anything that is generic or bland, or something that you can leverage in open-source database about or even the things that are available like ChatGPT.

If ChatGPT can answer the question or develop it for you, it is now a commodity, everybody has that, it doesn't make you special, it will not help differentiate what you're doing, or how you present it to your customers, you may have to do it because everyone else is and it becomes a cost of doing business but it's not going to be a differentiator. But your data that you have when you can take something like that and layer on what you know, think of a really simple situation like, he can go to ChatGPT and can say, “Look, write me a Facebook headline for a display ad or women's purses that are vegan leather in red with gold accents on it.” It can give you like 10 or 12 versions.

But your ability, say, as an ad agency to say like, yes, these 12 are options, but these 4 at the top are going to double your chance of conversions and reduce your costs of acquisitions by half, that's where all the value is. Your ability of knowing how you're going to leverage this and the impact that it’s going to have on your customers, that's where you're going to be able to get that advantage. And so, that whole idea of really understanding what you know and the level of which it's codified in your data that you can look at it and hold on to it, that's really going to be a point of differentiation and competitive advantage going forward.

Me: Awesome, that was an excellent example.

App, Website or Tool that Rich Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Rich shared that really to do tracking and there's a lot of options there. He uses Mac for work, and he uses a programme called Things, which does that. But for a long time, he was on paper and it's not so much like having these long lists of to-do's and it's about personal productivity. It's more the idea and this comes from there's a book called Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by David Allen, which is very much like the Bible on personal productivity, it goes into a lot of things. But the value isn't so much the forcing yourself to do things, it's when something comes up, you have a bulletproof way in which you capture it, and you don't have to think about it anymore. And it's that ability of not having all these things floating around in your head, distracting you from what's really important and what you need to focus on, that's really the value in it.

So, that ability to not have to worry about particularly as an entrepreneur, the 20, 30, 40, 50 things that you're eventually going to have to deal with. But put all of your focus and your energy on that one really important thing that you're working on right now and know that you're working on the most important thing. He doesn't know that he could run his business without the ability to do that.

What Rich is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something he’s really excited about, Rich shared that this tipping point in artificial intelligence, just based on his background, because he’s now been involved in it very much on the on the bleeding edge of it for 10 years to kind of really see it begin to tip over into the mainstream is pretty exciting.

And one, it's obviously that to see the thing begin to pay off the way that it's been promising for quite some time, but also the way in which it's a lot more acceptable from a mainstream standpoint. The idea of incorporating machine learning or artificial intelligence into a business process is not as crazy idea as it was even 2 or 3 years ago, and everybody's looking to kind of do it now, even if only from a competitive parody standpoint.

And he thinks the biggest thing there and this is kind of his angle and his company, their reason for being is really around giving parody to smaller businesses, particularly more agile businesses that are willing to step out and take a risk on something like this. It is the ability to really enhance small businesses, sometimes start-ups, sometimes established small businesses. And like he said, where they focus with community financial institutions, it's the ability to kind of give them that competitiveness with what they’re for a long time, just the goliaths of their industry. And he thinks, particularly now in 2023, as we're looking at a potential economic slowdown, it's really the small business sector, and in particular job creation that comes out of it is the big leading indicator, and certainly, the determiner of how quickly an economy comes out of even a slowdown, let alone a full-blown recession.

So, the more that that's there to kind of help that along to speed it to reduce a lot of the friction from a patient at that level at the small business level, the better off we're going to be and the quicker we're going to be able to return to a real growth setting, a growth posture of company.

Where Can We Find Rich Online

Website – www.mindspaninc.com

LinkedIn - Rich Edwards

Twitter – Rich Edwards

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by David Allen

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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John Livesay, aka The Pitch Whisperer, is an incredible keynote speaker. His TEDx talk: “Be The Lifeguard of Your Own Life” has over 1,000,000 views and was featured in Larry King’s Show. He has an innate ability to motivate company's sales teams to turn mundane case studies into compelling case stories so they win more new business. From John's award-winning career at Conde Nast, he shares the lessons he learned.

Best-selling author and creator of the online course “Revenue Rockstar Mastery.” He hosts his own Podcast “The Successful Pitch” heard in over 60 countries. John has a new book, The Sale Is in the Tale, is a business fable set in Austin, Texas, and he's about a sales representative whose old ways of selling are not working anymore.

Questions

• Now, John, could you share with us in your own words a little bit about your journey? How would you say that you got to where you are today?

• What are the three techniques that you teach, or that you promote, believe in that will help sales representatives or sales professionals to be more customer oriented and be able to really drive the sale home?

• Now, as a Revenue Rockstar Master, because you have this online course Revenue Rockstar Mastery, what are some things that you teach in this course to help people to master their revenue?

• You have a new book out, it's called The Sale is in the Tale. Can you tell our audience a little bit about that book?

• Could you also share with our listeners what is the one tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Now, could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you've read recently, or even a book that you've read a very long time ago, but it has had a big impact on you?

• Now, there's a lot more AI opportunities like platforms such as ChatGPT and Open AI. Are these tools that you believe for organisations, regardless of the industry, that these AI opportunities that are existing can help to propel sales in the business? Do you think it will probably even replace at some point the human interaction and storytelling?

• What are three skills that you believe a sales professional needs in order to be successful?

• Now, can you share with us as well what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Do you have maybe one or two tips that you would give to our listeners as it relates to sales and customer service, just some golden nuggets based on your experience and all of the different things that you've garnered over the years?

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or something happens, and you need to just use that quote to get refocused and just jump back on.

Highlights

John’s Journey

John shared that he felt that he’s always been motivated by connecting with people emotionally and that's where storytelling really comes in. He had a background working for an ad agency, creating commercials for movies when they were coming out on home video and that's really where he learned his storytelling skills and then selling multi-million-dollar mainframe computers against IBM, he learned that whoever told the best story is the one that got the sale, and that people buy emotionally and not logically.

Me: That is so true. It's funny is that people buy emotionally and not logically because I've been preaching that in customer service for ages that the customers emotions are so important to the experience, because it's what they walk away feeling, what they remember most not necessarily what you said, but more so the feeling that they walked away with?

So, can you share with our listeners, I'm sure you have way more experience than I do and you probably even have statistical data to backup this particular principle. Share a little bit about that, in terms of why is it that emotional has such a greater impact on the buying journey?

John shared that we're wired for storytelling. So, if you think back to the days of when we all lived in caves, we told stories like fire. Now, we typically tell stories around PowerPoints at events. He thinks part of the reason is that it taps into a different part of our brain, if you start presenting a bunch of facts and figures to somebody, then they're in this analytical, sometimes decision paralysis mode. But if you tell a story, it taps into a different part of our brain, where people will relax a little bit, they think, “Oh, this might even be entertaining.” And it allows them to retain the information in a completely different way and that solves a big problem because most people after they have a sales presentation, or even a customer service experience, whatever they said is forgettable. But if you told a story that makes people feel seen and heard, that makes you memorable.

Best Story-Telling Techniques to Get the Sale!

Me: So, sales and customer service go hand in hand and I think more and more as businesses evolve, and they recognize that they're not two separate activities in a business and they really need to be combined in the best way possible. What are the three techniques that you teach, or that you promote, believe in that will help sales representatives or sales professionals to be more customer oriented and be able to really drive the sale home?

John shared that the premise is that whoever tells the best sale is the one that's going to get the sale. So, honing your storytelling skills, the three things he teaches people are that a good story should be Clear, Concise, and Compelling. So, let's break those down.

Why does it need to be clear? Because if you confuse people with a bunch of acronyms, they're not going to tell you they're confused, they're just going to say no, the confused mind just said, “I don't think so, too much work.”

Why does it need to be concise? Well, you want them to be able to remember and retell your story to other people to become your brand ambassadors. And if your story goes on and on and doesn't have a point to it and isn't concise, nobody can remember, let alone repeat it.

And finally, why does it need to be compelling? Because when you tug at those heartstrings, you get that all-important emotional connection that we talked about. People have to feel something in those stories, the stakes have to be high in order for us to care about what's going on in this story.

Me: So, John, can you tell us what's the best sales story you've heard that had all those three components?

John stated that he will tell a story about a client he worked with, they had a piece of equipment that was making surgeries go 30% faster and they would present that fact to doctors, and they would sell some, but not very many. And they kept saying, “It's so logical, why are they buying?” And he said, because people buy emotionally, not logically even when they're a doctor.

And so, he asked them questions, and they crafted this story that has totally changed how people perceive them and buy the product.

Imagine how happy Dr. Higgins was down at Long Beach Memorial using their equipment when you go out to the patient's family an hour earlier than expected. And if you've ever waited for somebody you love to come out of surgery, you know every minute feels like an hour, the doctor comes out and says, “Good news, the scope shows they don't have cancer, they're going to be fine.”

And then turns to the rep and says, “You know, this is why I became a doctor, for moments like this.” Now that rep tells us this story to another doctor at another hospital, and the secret here is the other doctor sees themselves in the story and says, “You know what, that's why I became a doctor, I want your equipment too.”

Me: Very good. I like examples because they definitely tie into the real part of the show.

Revenue Rockstar Mastery Online Course – what is this course about?

Me: Now, as a Revenue Rockstar Master, because you have this online course Revenue Rockstar Mastery, what are some things that you teach in this course to help people to master their revenue?

John shared that one of the things he teaches what he just did there, which is a case story instead of a case study, and teach people how to tell a story that other people see themselves in.

When the client heard that story they said, “Oh gosh, that gives us chills. Not only are we not telling a story like that, it never occurred to us to make a patient's family a character in the story.”

And so, he teaches you how to figure out how to tell that story and how to pull people in, see how he uses that technique, “If you've ever had to wait for somebody you love.” And even if you haven't, you could imagine what it would feel like to wait for somebody you love to come out of surgery that it would feel like every minute was an hour. And so, there are some techniques that he teaches people, so they go from just being a good storyteller to a great one.

Me: And what if you have a sales professional whose storytelling is weak, like they've never communicated like that before. This is definitely like a learning curve for them that is extremely steep, it's not like they've had maybe a few techniques down pat, they just need to kind of craft it a little bit better but it's all new to them. And they're shy, they don't like talking to people very much, how do you lift them out of that?

John shared that it sounds like there's two challenges there. One, being shy, not talking to people is completely separate, maybe sales is not the career for you. But second, he gives people a structure on how to tell a story because the good news is, you don't have to be a gifted athlete or singer to become a good storyteller, there's an actual structure to it.

There's the exposition where you describe, you paint a picture and pull us into the story and then you describe a problem as he mentioned, there has to be some emotional hook there that people care about what's going on.

And then the solution and then the secret sauce is what is the resolution? What is life like for somebody after they've bought something from you or hired you?

Me: Because at the end of the day, every business is solving a problem. So I guess, if you can change the perspective of the story, where the benefit is to the person that you're trying to sell to, and as you mentioned, create an image or a story that they're able to see this problem being solved in the easiest way possible, then they're more inclined to want to make the purchase.

John agreed. And you don't have to be pushy. When you tell a great story that somebody sees themselves in, then they just want to go on the journey with you, you pull them into the story and you pull them into wanting to work with you. It's like landing a plane, it's that normal and expected.

About John’s Book – The Sale is in the Tale

John shared about his book The Sale is in the Tale, it's set in Austin where he lives. So, it's a little bit of a love letter to Austin. And it's a story about storytelling, so you're being entertained and going on a journey of somebody whose old ways of selling of just pushing out facts and figures isn't working anymore. And they start to learn about the power of storytelling and it helps them not only in their career but in their personal life too.

Me: And where can our listeners access that book? Is it available as yet?

John stated that yes, it's anywhere you buy books, Audible, he’s narrating it or Amazon wherever you want to buy a book, you can find it.

App, Website or Tool that John Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, John stated that calendar scheduling, it's between time zones, so he just can't imagine going back and forth with five different emails or phone calls trying to book people that way or getting himself booked that way. Those calendar links are everything.

Me: Is there a particular calendar application that you use or just the regular one on your phone?

John shared that he uses something called schedule OnceHub.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on John

When asked about books that have had a big impact, John shared that a book he read a long time ago, is Tim Sanders, The Likability Factor: How to Boost Your L-Factor and Achieve Your Life’s Dreams. And he's done all this research on how the more likeable you are, the more empathy you connect with people. And doctors spend more time with patients they like, teachers spend more time with students they like. And so, it's a great book on how to up your likability factor.

And then he also wrote another one, more recently called Dealstorming: The Secret Weapon That Can Solve Your Toughest Sales Challenges instead of brainstorming, it's about dealstorming and how important it is to collaborate across divisions to get everybody on board to win business.

AI Replacing Human Interaction and Storytelling

Me: Now, sales is one of those things in an organization that is the lifeline of the organisation, right? If the company doesn't sell anything, you can't make any money. And if they can't make any money, it cannot pay staff, it cannot reinvest, it just cannot continue.

So, could you share with us, we're just emerging out of a pandemic, I know a lot of organizations definitely had to diversify and pivot and take on technology a lot more, especially if they didn't have it integrated into their business.

Now, there's a lot more AI opportunities like platforms such as ChatGPT and Open AI.

Are these tools that you believe for organizations, regardless of the industry, that these AI opportunities that are existing can help to propel sales in the business? Do you think it will probably even replace at some point the human interaction and storytelling?

John shared that he doesn't think AI will ever replace the need for soft skills of storytelling, empathy and listening because what they can do is maybe help you write a proposal or a cover letter or a little faster than starting from scratch if you're someone that doesn't have that skill set innately honed in or worked on, but people are still going to want to buy from people is his prediction.

Skills that a Sales Professional Needs in Order to be Successful

Me: And what are also let's see, three skills that a sales professional needs outside of the storytelling, the three C's that you had mentioned. What are three skills that you believe a sales professional needs in order to be successful? Because I believe people buy from people who they like and people who they know. And so, how do you get people to like you?

John stated that instead of getting people to know, like, and trust you, which that concept has been around forever. The problem with, “Oh, let me get you to know me” people think they should send more data and more facts. “Let me send you one more email about some data point.”

So, he’s reversed that, and he says it's a gut heart head order, you have to start with trust in the gut. Is this safe? Is it a fight or flight? Is this email safe? The introduction he got that's a trust gets transferred, making eye contact. So, you start with trust, and then it moves up to the heart, which we talked about is where the likability factor is.

And the more empathy you show, the more likeable you are. And then finally, it goes to the head. And it's still not the time to get into the intellectual left-brain stuff. But you're answering by telling a story, the unspoken question everybody has when they hear you present or pitch anything, including yourself. Will this work for me? They might trust and even like you, but if they don't think what you're offering is going to work for them, they're not going to buy.

Me: Agreed, that makes sense for sure. So, you said that they need to like you and there's the heart component in terms of the empathy. And I've been asked the question quite a few times in some of my customer service training sessions, how do you teach someone to exercise empathy? Is that something that you touch on in your interactions with sales professionals?

John confirmed yes. An example is what's the difference between empathy and sympathy? Let's start there. Sympathy let's say you are a sales rep and you're walking in and you have an appointment and you see the receptionist has FedEx and UPS and the three phone lines ringing and two other people ahead of you. You could say, “Gosh, I'm sorry to bother you. But I have an appointment.” It's a little bit of sympathy maybe but empathy is you literally put yourself in their shoes. You go, “Wow, you must feel like an air traffic controller today, whenever you have a minute, let me know.”

Me: So, we focus on ensuring that we have more of those types of experiences then.

John affirmed Yes!

What John is Really Excited About Now!

John shared that one of the things he’s really excited about is he’s crafted a new keynote talk called Tell Stories, Recruit Top Talent. And the Society of Human Resources has had him come speak and as well as Berkshire Hathaway Home Services. A lot of people are still struggling to find really good talent and they may be good at selling a home or selling whatever they do but they're not good at telling a story to recruit people to come work there.

And so, once they learn how to tell a story about what the culture is, and what it's like to work with them as a leader, and what stories of other people who've come on board, and how happy they are, then that totally allows them to get the top talent, typically from competitors to come work there.

Me: Is this like in an application or is it more through a website?

John stated that it’s neither. It's something that people hire him to come speak at their sales meetings.

Me: Oh, so you're going in physically?

John shared that that's what he does for a living, people hire him to come speak at their sales kick-off meetings, typically on how to tell stories to win sales. And now they realize that HR is a sales function as well.

Me: Very true, because you want to recruit the right persons. And I find with customer service, as well, John, that if you can focus on getting the right people, it will mitigate a lot of the customer service issues that you have in the future. Have you found that for sales as well, if you get the right person to sell, because the hiring process is quite expensive, it's time consuming.

John stated that you want to develop relationships with people that you sell, so that they either buy from you again and/or send you referrals. And so, if you have a salesperson that knows how to do that, then they're not starting from scratch every day to try and find a new sale.

Tips as it Relates to Sales and Customer Service for 2023

Me: So, we're almost halfway through 2023. Do you have maybe one or two tips that you would give to our listeners as it relates to sales and customer service, just some golden nuggets based on your experience and all of the different things that you've garnered over the years?

John shared that one of the things that salespeople struggle with is they get stuck in what he calls the friend zone at work when someone says, “Oh, I'm interested, send me some information” and then they get ghosted, just like when you're in the dating world. And so, He thinks one of the key things to do is to realize that it's up to you to tell a story to intrigue people enough to want to continue the conversation and not get stuck at the friend zone at work.

And so, that's why storytelling is so crucial to continuing that path and also really allowing people to go at the pace that works best for them. One of the he thinks the worst things he’s ever seen somebody in customer service do is, “Well, we've never had anybody else complain about this.”

When you say that to somebody, you've invalidated their experience and their feelings, they don't really care, “So what, I'm the first person to ever have a problem with this. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't fix it.” And a lot of customer service people like to say that to people, “Oh, wow, this has never happened before.” If he’s a customer, he doesn't care it's ever happened before, it happened to him fix it.

Me: Agreed. That kind of dovetails into my next question. So, I know that your expertise is to go in and pitch to these organizations how to tell a story especially to sell. But let's say for example, you had to go into an organization to teach them.

Well, you wouldn't be really teaching them to pitch but let's say you're trying to get them to convince them to purchase a programme that will help to improve on their service. Because I find a lot of times with organizations buying the product is one but if the product requires a high level of maintenance from the organization, that's where it falls off.

I hear it a lot in Jamaica, you buy a car, the sales rep was running you down to buy the car and now you have the vehicle and you have an issues with it. Maybe something came on the dashboard, you can't get the sales rep, you can't get support at the dealership. How do you get them to that point where they recognize that the service is just as important as the sale because if the person doesn't choose to renew or buy a car again in five years, you practically lost that first sale.

John shared that he thinks it goes back to painting a picture again, telling a story of what happens if you don't have the service, like, “Do you need this warranty? I don't think so. Well, let me tell you a story of somebody who felt the same way that you did right now. And then six months later, something happened and versus a story of someone who did get the warranty and how grateful and happy they are they have it.

So, you have to paint that picture of what happens if you don't do what I'm suggesting versus what happens if you do do what I'm suggesting, and what you're really selling his peace of mind.

Where Can We Find John Online

LinkedIn – John Livesay

Instagram - @thepitchwhisperer

Website – www.johnlivesay.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity John Uses

When asked about a quote that he tends to revert to, John shared that it's a quote from Arthur Ashe, the famous tennis pro, he said, “The key to success is confidence. And the key to confidence is preparation.” So, anytime he feels concerned about something or overwhelmed, he realizes he has to think of himself like an athlete. And they practice, practice, practice before they get to the Olympics. And he needs to make sure that he’s as prepared as possible for any new situation when it comes up.

Me: Thank you so much, John, for hopping on to Navigating the Customer Experience, sharing all of these great insights as it relates to sales, customer service, some of the key things that you need to be a great storyteller, why it's important to create that picture, create that situation so you can change the perspective of the person that you're trying to sell to. And even in a customer service situation as you said, create that feeling that they walk away feeling good and they can't walk away feeling good if the narrative that you're selling is not one that's giving them that feeling. So, your message was definitely well heard by me, I hope the listeners will get value out of it as well.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· The Sale is in the Tale by John Livesay

· The Likeability Factor: How to Boost Your L-Factor and Achieve Your Life’s Dreams by Tim Sanders

· Dealstorming: The Secret Weapon That Can Solve Your Toughest Sales Challenges by Tim Sanders

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

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This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

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Saira Taneja is Chief Experience Officer at Cover Whale, a leading commercial trucking insurance provider and fast-growing insurtech.

Taneja brings over a decade of experience in the health insurance sector across various functional areas where she held multiple leadership roles. Her passion for innovative market offerings led her to Cover Whale. Leveraging her expertise in scaling businesses, while also achieving customer-centricity has been instrumental in the company's success. She currently oversees the Growth, Marketing and Customer Success organisations.

She holds a BA in International Business from Bentley University, and an MBA from Bentley's McCallum Graduate School of Business.

Questions

• Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey. So, could you take a few minutes just to share with our listeners, how it is that you got to where you are today?

• What is Cover Whale for those of our listeners that don't know what your company does, could you share with us?

• One of the things that I think would be important for these kinds of experiences to have a more of an omni channel approach to your service experience or your service delivery, could you share with us maybe three things that your organisation is doing that creates that kind of experience? Or if you're not doing it, maybe something you're working towards doing.

• Could you also share maybe two to three pain points that your end users pretty much complain about with your service that you're providing? What are some of your pain points that you're solving on a day to day basis?

• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can’t live without in your business?

• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read that have had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• From a leadership perspective, what are some things that you do to ensure that your team is motivated, and your team is doing all the best they can do to deliver that experience, not just for your end users, but also internally to each other?

• Now, could you also share what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote, if for any chance you got derailed, or you got distracted and you kind of use that quote to kind of just to get you back on track, get you back focused? Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Saira’s Journey

Saira shared that she likes to say that her career took a corporate path, albeit, not a linear one. And she tends to follow her passions for the next step. And so, without going into every twist and turn in her history, really it is that she started out, as mentioned, in sort of the International Business track, that's where she thought she wanted to go, worked in Embassy for a summer in DC, decided that was not for her and wanted to go into business.

And so, really work from sales and marketing, product, strategy, CX all with a common thread of strategy and CX throughout her career and ended up in the health insurance sector. It happened by chance and a lot of them that are in the insurance space, say they got here by chance, that they stayed here because of the opportunity and really have developed a passion for it.

And so, Cover Whale came knocking about a year ago at this point with this amazing opportunity that was really an amalgamation of all of her corporate experiences into one beautifully challenging job and she said yes. And so, that's what led her to her current post, as mentioned, overseeing the growth organization, marketing, customer success but really leading the charge on experience for Cover Whale.

About Cover Whale – What Does the Company Do?

Saira shared that Cover Whale is an Insurtech, so that's shorthand for an Insurance Technology company, and MGA. And for those of the listeners that are not familiar with an MGA, that's an Managing General Agent. So, an MGA is really a go between between the carrier partners. So, they have relationships with a number of different insurance carriers, and the Managing General Agent have functions that allow them to really underwrite. And so, they've been granted underwriting authority by the insurance companies with which they partner to bind, to underwrite, to price, to settle claims, and to point in retail agents.

So, all that to say is they are an entity between their carrier partners, and then retail agents, that's really their primary distribution channel in the commercial trucking space. So, you think of truck drivers driving across America, they need insurance, that's what they're providing. And they're doing it in a digital user-friendly way that hasn't been seen before.

Me: So, your primary customer are your truck drivers, and when you said insurance, you're talking about like health insurance? Are you also referring to life insurance?

Saira shared that that's interesting, she came from the health insurance space. So, what they're really offering is Commercial Auto Insurance. So, for their box trucks, auto haulers, semis, those are different types of vehicles, and for the cargo that they carry.

So, they are offering Commercial Auto Insurance for the end users or the policy holders, which are the truck drivers or owner operators. And they're doing it through their retail agents. So, she’s really excited for today's conversation because it's a pretty complicated space and they really have multiple stakeholders. So, when they think about experience, not only is it about the end users or drivers, it's about those that are distributing the insurance to them, which primarily for them is retail agents or wholesalers with whom they partner with.

Creating an Omni Channel Experience

Me: So, one of the things that I think would be important for these kinds of experience to have a more of an omni channel approach to your service experience or your service delivery, could you share with us maybe three things that your organization is doing that creates that kind of experience? Or if you're not doing it, maybe something you're working towards doing.

Saira stated that she loves that question, so, it's really interesting that Yanique said the word omni channel. And she thinks that means different things to different companies. But really, where most companies start is, you have service, so you have a place where people who might have questions or an issue can go to and call you as a company, right? They (Cover Whale) and others have a call line to be able to reach out to them, so that's one point in the experience.

And really, they also allow their partners to reach out to them via email, that's another point. But really where the majority of their experience is delivered is through their proprietary platform that they've built in house.

And that's where they go to bind coverage for policyholders. And so, what she'll say is, what she just described really is a multi-channel experience, right? You have various points in the interaction with Cover Whale and other companies where you can reach out, but multi-channel are siloed.

And so, she thinks you're asking about omni channel, which is how are you connecting all those points together, and that's something that they are working on internally that she knows every company is really after, because some of the best experienced companies in the world have figured out, you reach out to them one way, they know when you've reached out to them a different way and they're able to take the data that you've given them or information you've given them through those different channels and put it all in one place so that your experience is standardised across various channels.

So, that's something that they're working towards and getting better at every day. And really, it starts with centralization of data. And so, just with your questions of three different ways, she just described them. So, email, calling, as well as the platform as well as they have an app. And what she loves to say is that, in today's day and age, there are so many different channels from which customers can reach out and it's a matter of marrying all of them together into one omni channel experience.

Pain Points Cover Whale is Solving

Me: Could you also share maybe two to three pain points that your end users pretty much complain about with your service that you're providing? What are some of your pain points that you're solving on a day to day basis?

Saira stated that that's a really great question. And she'll be very honest with you, Cover Whale grew really, really quickly. The company was founded in 2020 and they're sitting here almost midway through 2023, they did not realize they’d experienced this level of explosive growth.

And so, with that, obviously come service challenges. When customers used to reach out to them, they wouldn't hear back in really a very quick fashion. And so, what they've done over the last year is really work on their timeliness. What they done is, they stood up a number of self-service tools. So, a knowledge base, a chatbot. They've stood up internal service level requirements for their team to achieve on the service side for getting to first contact resolution of an 85%, for an email response time of four hours.

And so, she would say to the question, it's really about speed of service that they've worked on and done really well at and you know what, at the end of the day, it's leveraging technology to be able to help and anybody can staff with hundreds of people to get to the hundreds of inquiries that are coming in, but it's really about being smart and applying technology so that you can drive down inquiries and also make improvements. The questions that were coming in, it gave them real insight into the pain points that they should be solving, sort of at the top of the funnel, rather than staffing for on the other end.

App, Website or Tool that Saira Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about an online resource that she can’t live without in her business, Saira stated that she loves this one. She likes to stick to and there are so many but for her, it's Miro. What she loves doing and if you ever visit their Cover Whale offices in New York and she welcomes you to do so. You're going to find post its everywhere. When they're in person, folks have known have visited the office when they're post its all around the room and more of the team is leveraging them now.

But she thinks it's really important to map the end to end journey for whatever it is that you're trying to solve for. Because sometimes one part of the company may be doing something that another part of the company may not be aware of. So, sitting and mapping step by step from a user's perspective is so important. And so, Miro is really the digital version of that. If you've ever used it, it's essentially a whiteboard with sticky notes, digitally, they can be any size, shape, colour, and you essentially do the same thing. And so, she uses that fairly often in a virtual setting.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Saira

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Saira shared that one that she loves, if folks that are listening that have not read before, it's really old, it's probably from like the late 90s, but it had quite an impact on her life, it's called The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom (A Toltec Wisdom Book). So, she loves that one. And not to steal the thunder of the book. But really, it's four agreements that you can apply to your life, starting with being impeccable with your word. To always doing your best and a lot of really good wisdom in the middle. And just to give credit where credit is due, that's by Don Miguel Ruiz, a Mexican author.

And the other one is by an Organizational Psychologist, Adam Grant, called Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know. And she found that one really enlightening and eye opening, because there are a lot of assumptions and biases and everybody's thinking that they may not even know that they have. And it's really about questioning everything that comes to mind and really encouraging others to question also, facts that we all may think are facts are likely have changed over time, the world is a dynamic place. And so, it's about thinking and thinking again, so she would encourage listeners to read that one if they haven't yet.

Ensuring the Team is Motivated to Deliver the Best Experience to the End Users and Internally

Me: Now your role, Saira at Cover Whale is Chief Experience Officer and that's a very big role. I can imagine in terms of leadership, you have to have strong leadership, certain kinds of skills to ensure that you are leading a team that is not just doing things because you've told them to do it, but they are intrinsically motivated to do it. And so, from a leadership perspective, for those of our listeners, who are tapping into this episode, and they’d like to sharpen their leadership skills, especially with post COVID, lots of people are burnt out mentally, they might not necessarily like everything about what they do and sometimes that energy comes over in their drive and the work that they get done. What are some things that you do to ensure that your team is motivated, and your team is doing all the best they can do to deliver that experience, not just for your end users, but also internally to each other?

Saira stated that she loves that question. So, when you think about experience, it's not just the experience that you're delivering, it's the experience of the people with whom you're working with every single day. If the experience of the people you're working with is not good, more likely than not, your customers are not happy either. And so, it starts with the culture, it starts in the organization and for her, her leadership style is really one of being a servant leader. It's about listening to those that she leads in her organization and understanding what's working well, what isn't.

Saira shared that she is actually on a listening tour right now with their agent partners, she’s trying to meet with one every single day, it might take her years to get through all of them because there are thousands but she offers this as a suggestion to other leaders who are listening to this podcast because leadership has a tendency, we want measurement, NPS, customer effort, customer satisfaction, what is the data telling us, and you will get insights from surveys, absolutely and that should be happening too.

But just pausing and calling your customer, reaching out to them, having a meeting, sitting down with them, asking for feedback is so powerful. She has learnt so much in the last x months of sitting down with partners every single day that she doesn’t think she would have gotten the same colour from a PowerPoint presentation on sort of survey insights. And so, she just encourages listeners to reach out and have a conversation, you might learn something that your customers would not have offered in an online survey or other medium. So, just ask and listen, active listening is such an important part of what we can all do.

They've hired the best of the best, really, and so it's about making sure they have everything that they need to do their best work. And what she can say to you is that in terms of their experience, they've purposely developed the culture internally at Cover Whale to be one that's employee centric. And in being employee centric also means that they have the power to do right by their customers and their stakeholders. And so, what she asked the team to do is in every interaction, or anything that they're standing up, whether it be at the product level, whether it be in communications, is this something that you would like to be on the receiving end of if you're in the shoes of their customer?

She thinks that's so important. They're not just going to a company everyday working and going home and turning off, they're actively building something and creating something that their customers are experiencing, that they experience, frankly, 1000s of times a day in their interactions with other companies. So, she thinks it's really about bringing that message home and empowering their people to be able to do right by their end users.

What Saira is Really Excited About Now!

When asked what’s one thing that’s going on right now that she’s excited about, Saira stated that that's a great question. She stated that it's figuring out how to harness technology for service. And when she says service, she doesn't just mean their service centre. When it comes to insurance, once somebody signs on the dotted line, everything that comes after over the next year is service, if they need to reach out, if they need to make a change, if something has happened unfortunately, that’s service and so how do they harness technology to be able to help with that service and ChatGPT is such an interesting point in their life, and in society to figure out how to mindfully apply technology so that we can free up humans to do more value-add work, and really drive the empathy that all people want.

At the end of the day, people are looking for a connection at a certain point, they may not want to talk to a person for a common question that they can get responded to via Chatbot or that they can find a knowledge base. But she thinks that's one of the most interesting things that they're really thinking through right now of how do you apply technology to be able to free up people to be able to do more value-add work? And she thinks this is not just a question that she has internally with Cover Whale, she thinks this is a question that leaders are asking throughout. And really everybody's asking of what is this going to mean five years down the road?

Me: Agreed. It's interesting you mentioned ChatGPT because I don't believe that is going to replace people. And I totally agree with you that the question should be, how can we use the technology to answer more mundane, run of the mill kind of questions, and then the more complex tasks that require a high level of empathy, the emotions and the workings of a human being that chat or a bot or any form of artificial intelligence can't deliver, the humans can be freed up to deal with those kinds of scenarios.

Saira stated yes, she totally agrees with that.

Me: So, in continuation of that whole point, do you see ChatGPT evolving, and exploding, or even something that's being added on to that like in the next, I would say, 12 months? Because it's definitely a buzz thing that's happening, have you found ways in your organisation to make it work?

Saira stated that they have and it's interesting. So, what she would say is, she thinks that her inclination right now, based on what she’s seen, is that she would not want to apply it just front and centre to their customers. She thinks from a service standpoint, it's really unpredictable. In terms of what you might get back, but she thinks it's really compelling to use as a tool, which is where she hopes we all end up going, if you think about a calculator being introduced to the world, and everybody's saying, “Oh, no, nobody's going to learn how to do math.” And it's like, well, you learn to use it as a tool for analysis, for research.

And so, that's really how they're trying to leverage it, of are there certain things that they might be able to input into it? Can it crunch massive amounts of data to be able to give them insights that otherwise would have taken them weeks to do?

For instance, are they able to take certain inputs and filter it through, of course, nothing proprietary or sensitive, and then understand what's working well from the proprietary technology they've stood up. What might be a production error that they're seeing or others. So, she thinks that if organizations can figure out how to optimise their back-end operations by using ChatGPT as a tool, she thinks it would just make us more efficient. But in terms of it being customer facing right now, she doesn't think we're there.

Where Can We Find Saira Online

LinkedIn – Saira Taneja

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Saira Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Saira shared that she does. The one that she always tends to go back to is Alice Walker, she's an American novelist. She has said, “The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any.” And she loves that because we all have the power, each and every day to drive change. No matter what aspect of life it is and this is what she shares with her teams as well, is that you have the power really to change something. Don't pass the buck, don't think somebody else will do it for you. If you can do it, you have the power to do it, do it.

Me: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing, Saira. And I think if anything our listeners should take away from this interview is focusing on ensuring that we really pay attention to all of our stakeholders, our employees, our customers, and ensure that we really listen to them as she mentioned, active listening, it's something we take for granted, it's something that we have to do every day in order to communicate. But are we really designating that time and effort to the people who really need to be heard so the real change can be made?

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom (A Teoltec Wisdom Book) by Don Miguel Ruiz

· Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know by Adam Grant

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty.

This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately!

This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others.

Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience Webinar – New Date

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Zack Wenthe is the Customer Data Platform Evangelists for Treasure Data. He often speaks about the marketing and customer data industry at industry events, webinars, and virtual conferences. Having spent a majority of his career in marketing and marketing consulting working with large enterprise brands like Walmart, Nationwide Insurance, FedEx, and many more, Zack now gets to tell the CDP story to help marketing teams eliminate the friction caused by silos, inefficiencies, and lack of understanding of their true customers.

Zack lives with his amazing wife and two kids on the bluffs of the Mississippi River and has one more who is away at college. Outside of work, Zack enjoys cooking, spending time with his kids, writing comedy, and maybe someday a screenplay.

Questions

• We like to ask our guests in their own words, if they could share about their journey, how it is that they got to where they are today?

• So, you work at a company called Treasure Data. And for those of our listeners that are not familiar with your organisation, can you tell us a little bit about what you do.

• Based on your experience, and your knowledge in this particular area, what are maybe three of the top pain points that utilising this methodology, helps with customers overall experience with a brand.

• How do you think ChatGPT can help organisations with the overall service experience?

• As it relates to creating emotional connection and personalization, can you share with us, how you think that will help to deepen brand loyalty and of course, improve overall customer experience?

• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read? It could be a book you read recently, or even one you read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great impact on you.

• Could you share also with our listeners what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you are really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you’ll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason at all you get derailed or side-tracked and you kind of just need that quote to get you back on target, back on track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Zack’s Journey

Me: So, even though we read a little bit about you, a little bit of professional, a little bit of personal, we still like to ask our guests in their own words, if they could share about their journey, how it is that they got to where they are today? Could you do that for me, please?

Zack shared that he would say it's a long winding road to how he got to kind of his career. He went to college thinking he was going into theatre and yet, somehow, he ended up in marketing. But when you think about it, marketing is a lot of theatre. So, he started college, he realized he wasn’t going to make any money if he went into the theatre route and kind of wandered around for a bit and kind of landed into the marketing space, ran teams for a while before he made the jump into the consulting world.

And most of his consulting career was tied to martec, he was enough of a nerd that he was a marketing technologist before that was like a title or a thing. And he could kind of translate, he could tell the marketing story to the tech people and then he could translate the technical requirements and limitations back to the marketing team and they can kind of work through the details. So, he spent a lot of his career as a strategist doing implementations and family, it got to be a lot to be with a client every week.

So, he kind of made the jump over to the product world. And he sits now as Yanique said, as the CDP Evangelist, so he gets to kind of talk about their product, and he talks to marketers that he’s worked with for his entire career and kind of understand their pain points. And so, he gets to kind of come and talk to businesses, owners. And so, that's how he ended up here.

About Zack’s Company – Treasure Data

Me: So, you work at a company called Treasure Data. And for those of our listeners that are not familiar with your organisation, can you tell us a little bit about what you do?

Zack shared that Treasure Data is an enterprise customer data platform. And what that means is they work with typically complex organizations who are trying to bring all of their customer profile, transactional behavioural data together into a single location.

So, you may have email systems and eCommerce systems and physical point of sale systems and all these different things that have fragments of the individual kind of scattered within these different systems.

And so, the goal of a CDP or Customer Data Platform is to bring all of those profiles together. So, we're looking at a single kind of 360 degree view of that customer and therefore, they can create better customer experiences, they can create better connection, emotional connection with their customers, so that they’re not having these, well, he calls it into the call centre, and they don't even know that he made a purchase kind of experiences, which unfortunately, happened way too often. So that's the pain they solve.

Me: So, let me give an example. Let's say for example, I go to my doctor and the week before I had gone to a different doctor and I did a blood test, and in the week before that I did a mammogram. And so, is it that your platform allows this doctor to see all of this medical data merged into one space and they can look holistically at the person?

Zack stated that, so with obviously with privacy and consent kind of in place, so assuming that that medical system was sharing the information, and you had consented to that, absolutely, it would bring all of that profile together, and make it available to the electronic medical record in that case or to a scheduling when you call them later now, and you have to schedule an appointment, they'd be able to see that, “Oh, by the way, you were in here a week ago, and you prefer this location.”

So now they're not going to send you to one 20 miles away from you.

So, all of those little details, and it works across retail, travel and hospitality, big B2B, medical, absolutely. All of those scenarios.

Utilizing this Methodolgy in Helping with Customers Overall Experience with a Brand

Me: So, share with our listeners for me, Zack, based on your experience, and your knowledge in this particular area, what are some of I would say maybe three of the top pain points that utilizing this methodology, helps with customers’ overall experience with a brand.

Zack shared that he would say the top three or the number one that they think about is this idea of the fractured individual. So, at any given time, when he’s a consumer, and he’s dealing with a company, he’s not dealing with a department, he doesn't care whether you're the online team, or you're the marketing team, whether you're the email team, whatever variation of that departmental hierarchy you are, he just deals with the brand as the consumer.

And, unfortunately, corporations don't typically operate that way. We have structure and teams and silos. And so, what ends up happening is you end up with this fractured view of an individual, and it's frustrating from the consumers perspective, because now one day they're talking to, they're physically in a store, and they're shopping, and they're talking to somebody that's under one team, and one data system. But again, later on, they're online, and it's a whole other system.

And they recently just had a new customer joined them, and this is the exact scenario that they were trying to solve, they said, “Look, we're a high-end jewellery retailer, and during the pandemic, 80% of our people were shopping online, they were buying and spending large amounts of money. And it's not acceptable for them to walk into our store and talk to a salesperson, and the salesperson has no idea who they are, no idea about their past purchases, that's not the experience we want to create.”

And so, by democratizing or making all of this data available, they eliminate that friction, or that kind of pain point of dealing with the customer. So, that's the first one.

The second two are kind of offshoots of that is, once you've solved that major problem, then now you can start to have conversations amongst multiple teams, because you're all working on the same set of data. So, no longer are you arguing over when the last customer visited based on which system is in charge, it's all combined. And so, you're able to have a conversation, you don't go to a board meeting and hope your data is correct, because you're working on a unified set of truth. So, your analytics, your insights, all of the reporting is better.

And then the last one is now they also break down the access to data. So, a lot of times with silos, the challenge becomes, if you're in the marketing team, you're going to have to go to somebody in IT, they're going to have to pull report for you, they're going to have to go in, and it's going to take a couple weeks, they make it easier and faster for all these teams to access this information so that they can move faster, and they can move more nimbly. So, the three really is access to the first the total customer to begin with, then you can trust the data and then you can move nimbly and interact with the customer as a result of that.

How ChatGPT Can Help Organizations with the Overall Service Experience?

Me: So, data is king, right? And as we’ve emerge out to the pandemic, and now we have all of these wonderful AI tools. Now we have ChatGPT, I would love to know your views since you're in the data world in terms of how do you think ChatGPT can help organizations? I mean, there's a lot of chatter about ChatGPT replacing people but I personally don't believe that any technology is going to replace a human being. But I would love to hear your views since this is an area that you operate in on a day to day basis across different industries, how do you see this helping or not helping the overall service experience?

Zack shared that this is a great question. He thinks ChatGPT allows us to access more information faster. But really, that's never been the problem. Really, it's never been an issue, there's no shortage of information or data, and it's never going to get less.

The problem now still lies in organizing it, accessing it, and trusting it. And so, he thinks as these models, whether it's open AIs, ChatGPT or any variation of that, or some of the other competitors, as they mature, and you start to see, he thinks the biggest question, the plugins, where you can start to bring in information, so not only can you ask your assistant, your AI assistant, “Tate, help me plan a trip to Mexico. I want to stay in an all-inclusive resort with this weather.”

And they're like, “Oh, yeah, here's some options.” Well, that's historical information. But now when you pull in a plug in, for example, and it can real time access travel, it can access weather patterns, it can access all this other information. Now, that becomes useful and now it becomes a matter of indexing and organizing and making that data accessible.

And so, he thinks that's where he gets excited, especially personally, just being able to speed up a lot of the mundane things we do on a day to day basis as a consumer, but also as a business, they, customer data platforms are going to be a source for a lot of those AI systems.

If he knows everything you've purchased from them, and he knows everything based on that what other customers have purchased, all this other information, he can feed it to an AI system, and you go shopping, and you can say, “Hey, pick out my summer wardrobe.”

And the AI system can make recommendations based on what you like, what you don't like, and it's super personalized to you because it's not just looking at what you bought maybe at the store, but because the AI is tied into other stores, it looks at what you buy in other stores, what shoes you have, how you tend to use those clothing items. Do you travel? Do you speak? All these ideas. But the idea is, by being able to really personalize at a level we've never been able to get to because of just resource scales. He thinks that's where AI gets really interesting.

Will it replace people? No, he doesn't think so. He thinks it's going become a skill much like googling is, you have to know how to Google to get through your day. He thinks interacting with AI is going to be a very similar scenario.

Creating Emotional Connection and Personalization – How Can That Help Deepen Brand Loyalty and Improve Overall Customer Experience?

Me: That's interesting, like learn to Google, learn to ChatGPT, that kind of leads to my next question, as it relates to creating emotional connection. And I think it's important to recognise that all customers are human beings, and everybody has their personal preference and personalization has been one of those buzzwords for quite a few years now. But as you mentioned, before, we haven't really been able to get to that level of granular specification with customer to customer, I don't just feel like I'm a transaction, or just another person, but I feel like this was for me, only me, nobody else in the world, but me. So, can you share with us, how you think that will help to deepen brand loyalty and of course, improve overall customer experience?

Zack shared that when it comes to improving the customer experience and brand loyalty, at this point, being loyal to a brand is often not enough. We all think about all the loyalty programmes we're all members of, the average household has 20 plus loyalty cards, if not more, it doesn't make you loyal, it just means you've kind of learned to operate within that mode.

He thinks really what it comes down to is the level, which is the next level, which is brand attachment. Are you attached to that brand? And are you happy when you interact with them? And would you be sad if they weren't around? And that's a level that a lot of brands still don't operate at.

There’re obviously degrees of that within different industries and different verticals. But if you think about it in that lighter, in that lens, people came out of the pandemic who were very loyal to brands and then couldn't shop in them anymore, so they found an alternative. They learned to shop online, they're like, “Oh my gosh, this was super easy.”

People who are scared of eCommerce aren't scared of eCommerce anymore, they have groceries delivered to their door. We all went through a massive shift in our buying behaviour as a result of the pandemic. But he thinks it's not just a result of that, we just accelerated what was already happening.

And so, we're in this world now where the consumer is in charge, they get to pick what they want, and brands have to keep up, they're not in the driver's seat, it's no longer, “Here's my experience. And if you want to do business with me, you have to bend to my will.” Consumers are now saying, “Hey, this is how I expect to be treated. This is the brand I want to deal with.” And we're being a lot more forceful as consumers in making those decisions, in breaking up with the ones that we don't like, and so forth.

So, that means now as we get to the personalization side, personalization has to evolve. We can't just geo target advertising to people or target based on, “Well, you bought this in the past, you're going to buy this in the future.” There's a whole other level below that, which when we get into the idea of creating those emotional connections, creating those tying into as individuals, as people, whether that's through personalization, whether that's through AI, whether it's through new ways of creating ads, we can create content at scale, that we've never been able to.

So now, he can serve you, if he knows you're an introvert, and he’s a travel company, he can serve you out ads or content that shows people sitting on the beach reading, that's more appealing to you, that seems like that's vacation, versus if you're an extrovert, being able to show a group of people hanging out on the beach, socializing. And for the introvert, that's exhausting, for the extrovert that's exciting. And so, and that's a really simple example.

But if you think about that, before you'd have to create all that content, you'd have to write all that, well, AI can do all that now. You can generate those images, and you can process it and it's only the beginning, it's only going to get better, faster, easier, cheaper to do.

Me: It's amazing the amount of things that AI has allowed and when I look across the different platforms that I use, and I get these emails on a weekly basis about the platforms integrating AI into their existing solution, making it easier for the consumer. And as you mentioned before, things that would have taken 10 hours, a whole month to do ten/five years ago can literally be done in like 5 minutes or less.

Zack stated absolutely and he thinks we're just scratching the surface. He thinks right now, it's still, in a lot of ways a gimmick. Because people are just trying to figure out, what is that killer use case for his business for AI? And so, let's try something. And so, much like we had 20 years ago when people started creating websites, everybody kind of jumped online, and then they figured out what worked. And then same thing, 10 plus years ago with social media, it was like everybody needed a social media platform. And then you're like, “No, I just need a page.” Okay, but this is what this page means and then it became Instagram, AI is going to be the same thing, we're going to have this kind of wave as we figure it out.

Me: Agreed. One of the things I loved about what you said earlier, when we just started talking about the emotional connection was brand attachment. And if you think about a brand that you can't live without, like, if they were no longer in existence, how would you operate? Would you be able to find a substitute? And when you said that, what came to mind was my Apple ecosystem. So, I'm just like, I don't see any other product out there that moves so smoothly and easily. And honestly, if there was no Apple, I don't know if there would be a substitute. I would find a substitute, of course, but I wouldn't be satisfied because if they're not offering what Apple is offering, then it would mean that they're not meeting my expectations, because Apple has set the bar so high.

Zack agreed absolutely. And we all have those. And he’s 100% on board with the Apple ecosystem as well, that would be his challenge. And there's probably five or six other brands in your life that if you had to replace them, you would, but you'd be frustrated by it, you'd be sad by it, you'd be upset. And he thinks that's the level that we as companies need to kind of strive for now. Now, it's not just are they loyal? Do they do they buy from us repeatedly, but do they want to buy from us repeatedly?

Me: Very true. Because want and need are two different things, right?

App, Website or Tool that Zack Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he can’t live without in his business, Zack stated that that's a good question. He does a tonne of research and writing and notes. And so, he'll give you two. So, he has both Evernote and Notion as his kind of a second brain for collecting and managing information. And so, he loves notebooks, he loves writing and moleskin notebooks, but he loses them, or he forgets what he wrote down in one and then it sits somewhere in a desk drawer. So, getting it into a digital system was a huge change in how he personally operates, how he manages his workload. So, Notion is probably his number one recommendation right now. And it's integrated with AI, so you can be on the cutting edge, because you can use AI write within it to summarise notes and do to do lists and all sorts of cool things.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Zack

When asked about books that have had a great impact, Zack stated that he’s got a couple here and he has a couple different ones. So, he’s always been a huge fan of Malcolm Gladwell, so Tipping Point, anything by Malcolm Gladwell is a good one. But when we're thinking and we're talking about personalization and we're talking about psychology, a book that actually came from a recommendation by Malcolm Gladwell, he made it a comment in one of his books. But he went from the source, it's a textbook. But it's called The Person and the Situation: Perspective of Social Psychology by Lee Ross and it's like perspectives on kind of social psychology. And since he’s a marketer, social psychology is a huge interest area for him.

And the thesis of this book really comes down to the idea is, how much does the situation that we're in influence the way we behave versus the person and the personality? So, in other words, all things being equal, does the person behave the same regardless of situation? Or does the situation really drive?

And a lot of times when we think of personalization, and when we think persuasion, and we think writing copy, and all these things, we focus on the person, we spend too little time focusing on the situation that they're in. And so, this was definitely a kind of a deep dive into social psychology on how much the environment around you can impact how you behave, how you interact, and how you respond to stimuli.

Me: That's a very good point, because I think the environment definitely affects you. I mean, let's say you're buying something in relation to a plumbing issue that you're having at your home, but there is an emergency, clearly, the urgency of purchase is going to be much greater just based on the environment on what's happening on the situation, versus you just randomly walking into the store and making that purchase.

What Zack is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that going on right now that he’s excited about, Zack shared that he’s writing a book, he’s been working on a book for a while. So, a lot of his job and his career has always been centred around storytelling. And about three years ago, he sat down, and he said, he can talk to you about that but what the heck does he mean by storytelling in business, and so he started just kind of pulling all these notes together. And then he started diving into the research and pulling a lot of things out. And so, that's been what he’s been working on furiously for the last six months or so is getting that manuscript done and whatnot.

It's been amazing because he thinks the art of writing, it is one of those things that every marketer, every business owner should dedicate time to writing. So, even if you're not going to write a book, sitting down and taking the thoughts that’s in your head and distilling them so that somebody else can learn them is an incredible way to not only teach yourself, but to refine your thinking and realize where you might have a gap or where you might need to explain better.

And so, even if you're not going to write a book, he would say any anybody should pick up a pen, grab a keyboard, and start writing about your passion area or your interest area, because you will unlock a lot of things about yourself when you're staring at a blank screen and you're trying to get words out of your head.

Me: Very true. Awesome. So, I'm excited about your book. I hope that when it's released, we can have you back on our podcast to discuss all the exciting buzz coming out of that book.

Where Can We Find Zack Online

Website – www.treasuredata.com

LinkedIn – Zack Wenthe

Twitter – Zack Wenthe

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Zack Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Zack shared that he has a lot of concepts and stories and notes. And he thinks one that drives him as a marketer, and one that drives him personally, he uses it often. There's a jazz performer, his name is Art Blakey, and he had a quote, and it was simply, “If you're not appearing, you're disappearing.” And so, he kind of apply that in a lot of different ways. From marketing perspective, if you're not showing up in front of your audience, they're going to forget you, you're going to fade away.

He (Art Blakey) obviously was talking about it from a performance perspective, as a performer. If you're not up in front of the audience, you're losing that connection. But Zack thinks it applies to our personal lives as well. If you're not showing up and you're not bringing your authentic self, then you lose those connections, out of sight, out of mind is such an easy default for so many people. So, to him, that's one that he always kind of go back to, which is, just show up, be present and be out there.

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Links

· The Person and the Situation: Perspectives of Social Psychology by Lee Ross

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

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Richie Jones has experienced both client side and agency life across multiple sectors. Having spent the majority of his career to date being just in front of the curve, he is now in the sweet spot having found his niche. Launching vvast has allowed Richie to blend his agency experience and brand expertise to deliver an innovative, low-capital entry to market for brands but crucially plugging them into a relentless R&D roadmap to accelerate revenue. He is passionate about the concept of creative destruction and feels genuinely privileged to have seen the inception and gradual impact of the internet on society and brands.

Ritchie builds teams with a shared love of brand, a stoke for surfing, mountain biking and music, and drive to deliver epic work. Having embarked on B Corp journey in 2021, Richie has discovered how aligned it is with his purpose for vvast, it is so much more than environmental impact, it's about considering our contribution to the wider community, and understanding the way we do business through an ethical lens.

Questions

• We read your bio, your formal bio that they sent over to us, but we always like to ask our guests to share in their own words, a little bit about your journey, how you got to where you are today?

• So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about vvast? What kind of clients do you have? What kind of work do you do? so they have a better idea of what your organisation is about? I know you mentioned just now that it was formed six years ago, and it's about 35 employees that you have in your complement.

• So, I'm sure many of our listeners may have different organisations that they are a part of, and they may outsource some aspects of their business. And so, when you outsource a lot of times, the customer may not necessarily have the same experience across the board, could you share with us maybe two or three things that you found has made your team successful to make that experience so invaluable for the customer that they're not even able to pick up that you are a third party? But you're just all one.

• What are maybe I would say, two things that you believe is important to grow a profitable and purpose led business focused on transparency, and communicating values, because especially the values part?

• Can you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a very big impact on you.

• Could you also share with us one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests if you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you feel off track or you get derailed, this quote kind of helps to get you back on track, remind you of as you said that Simon Sinek says, “Why are you doing what you're doing?”

Highlights

Richie’s Journey

Richie shared that the bio really sort of summarises the journey he’s been on. And he thinks the concept of being in front of the curve for quite a long time in his career has definitely been something he guess, paid for in the early parts of his career, because he was almost too early with the internet and technology. So, what's amazing now, having first founded a company that was about 20 years ago, he sold it about 10 years in, that was an amazing experience to see what it's like to start something and take it all the way through to selling to a A-listed marketing group. So, it's what you do when you've sort of found things and see what it turns into is really exciting.

After that, he went brand side as they call it for a five-year period where he was on a private equity, and also venture capitalist funded board, where they selected brands and kind of took them to a whole next level really. After that, he went what they call brand side and worked, got a big learning for how brands operate, some of the challenges they face. And the crucial thing he kind of learned on that long sort of period as well was how to create amazing brand and consumer experiences, what will actually really make consumers want to buy again from a brand and why they enjoy doing it.

And most recently he founded vvast six years ago, and they’ve now grown to sort of 35 people that handling approaching 15 million pounds worth of revenue for their brands at the moment. So, it's been a really great journey. And crucially within that they have a whole customer services or customer centric elements of what they do as well. That's what he’s done in a nutshell so far.

About Richie’s Company - vvast

Me: So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about vvast? What kind of clients do you have? What kind of work do you do? So they have a better idea of what your organisation is about? I know you mentioned just now that it was formed six years ago, and it's about 35 employees that you have in your complement, correct?

Richie affirmed, yes, that's correct. So, what they do in sort of summary is they’ve created an approach to be able to bring brands to market, initially in the European marketplace, but they’re expanding into the Middle East, they actually have some brands in Australia and New Zealand as well. And fairly similarly going into the US, as well. So, it will be a global thing they’re doing. But in the early stages, what they’re doing now is they’ve set up the business so that a brand, some of the brands they work with brands, like Yeti and they have Stance, they have some of the Truly brands, so Truly Designs and brands like Jansport, which is one of the VF brands they work with.

And all of these brands, they operate in the European market, primarily, they set them up. So, it's actually, this is crucial on the eCommerce channel, but also on Amazon as well. It's actually a very complicated channel to navigate. And if you're saying based in the US and you’ve worked with a lot of California West Coast based brands, it's actually very quite risky setting up an entity and trading in the European market in the first place. They have all of the teams, the infrastructure and crucially the technical platforms to be able to launch a brand in Europe, navigate all of the challenges around the 28 countries that exist in the main sort of European Union trading block, things like language, how to price correctly, how to go to market, and also creating amazing customer and brand experiences. So, they’re able to do that. And it's actually very low cost for a brand to use them, compared to them setting up the sort of one to 2 million US dollar cost of setting up your own local team and market. So, instead, they can talk to them and they basically act as the brand, they don't see themselves necessarily as an agency, they see themselves as a genuine extension to what the brand does, and in sort of customer facing side of what they do, especially, they're trained by the brands that they work with as well.

So, if you were to contact one of the brands they work with, you might talk to someone who works at vvast, but actually in effect, the consumer or customer is none the wiser they are being dealt with as they are the brand. And they take great pride in that and they feel like they’re huge sort of custodians of that as well. This year, they’re going for a B Corp as well, as mentioned in his bio, and they’re particularly excited about that, because they were able to apply a lot of the learnings from their B Corp, to the brands and make recommendations and how they can be more sustainable and more ethical.

Strategies Found That Has Made Your Team Successful to Make Experience Invaluable for the Customers

Me: Amazing. So, I loved what you said about talking to someone from vvast but you didn't know you're talking to someone from vvast, because it was almost like you're talking to someone from the actual company, because that experience was just so seamless. So, I'm sure many of our listeners may have different organisations that they are a part of, and they may outsource some aspects of their business. And so, when you outsource a lot of times, the customer may not necessarily have the same experience across the board, could you share with us maybe two or three things that you found has made your team successful to make that experience so invaluable for the customer that they're not even able to pick up that you are a third party? But you're just all one.

Richie stated that is really crucial with the kind of brands they work with as well. So, a lot of high end. So, the expectation from a consumer point of view is that it should be a like a premium, incredible experience. So, the real challenge of it is that if there's if common issues that are coming up, but it's having good software to track, so they use Zendesk as their main platform, but there's others out there, obviously, they're having really good software to track what are their consistent problems that the consumers are contacting them about? And that's where because they own the full 360 user experience, they call it 360 so they can actually change if it's a problem with how you're describing the sizing, for example, on the website might be one specific product.

And that's particularly important when you're importing products from say, the US where sizing is completely different, and they don't use it, they use Imperial not metric to do it, making sure all those things you address. If it's a really common issue, and it's reoccurring, making sure they have a really clear process that addresses that, so you can actually reduce the amount of inbound you're getting around that particular issue. That's a real kind of big advantage that they have, because they will have visibility. That's definitely the first thing he'd say.

He thinks as well. The other one is what is really immersing their brand team, sort of customer experience facing team in the brand itself. And again, with a premium brand that they’re working with, they’re very fortunate that they actually extend the training, the onboarding, and also product update training with their team. And that's been really instrumental in terms of their success. So, often the US team will just treat their team exactly as an extension, which is exactly what you need. And likewise, they will share their excitement. So, if there's a product update, for example, that addresses one of the key issues, because a lot of these products, they're driven by the consumer. So, if there's a key issue that comes up like the latch is too tight or too hard to close on a key kind of piece of luggage, for example, when there's an update, and there's a really great accessory that comes up that addresses that issue, their team are the first to know from those brands that there's a brilliant kind of solution to this. And that is just a great example that the brand is listening to the consumer, which is again why consumable repeat with a brand.

He thinks the third one he'd say is that glue that exists between the trading team that they have who actually trade the eCommerce websites and also things like Amazon, and the insights that team kind of getting so there’s a great trust there. So, if there's an issue with a website, which he’s happy to say doesn't happen very often, they their trade team will be the first to tell their customer experience team that there's an issue.

And it might be on one particular payment type, for example, like Apple Pay has gone down or MasterCard isn't working in Germany for some reason, or whatever it is, their trade team are very quick to tell the customer experience team just say really quickly, “Okay, we're aware of this issue. We're working on it, here's a resolution, can we help you with an alternative payment method?” That kind of thing really. So, those are probably the kind of biggest things and it really leverages their 360 model, because they've got that visibility across the entire business, so to speak.

Me: Amazing. So, you mentioned the glue, the technology and the training and development. And that's kind of how your methodology works in order to ensure that seamless experience. That's really, really good.

Important Factors to Grow a Profitable and Purpose Led Business Focused on Transparency and Communicating Values

Me: Could you also share in working with your company vvast and all of your high end clients and brands across different countries across Europe, what are maybe I would say, two things, let’s narrow it down to two that you believe is important to grow a profitable and purpose led business focused on transparency, and communicating values, because especially the values part. Because you're working with many different people, many different personalities, we're all socialised and grown up differently. So, how do you kind of get everybody on that same page, and then your consumer buys into those values that you have for your organisation and they can see those values permeate in your day to day interactions with you?

Richie stated that it's such a kind of question of now. And often it's very pertinent to the kind of the zeitgeist of purpose led really, and we're in a smoothness age now, especially the internet and post COVID, where the brand is the biggest brands in the world, and even the smaller ones and operations like vvast do as well. If you're going to embark on a purpose led mission and use things like the amazing movement is being fought to make it a transparent process, you absolutely 100% have to live and breathe your kind of company vision fundamentally, that's the most important thing. And he thinks anchoring it back to your company vision, and reminding your team of what you're doing and why you're doing, it not only creates a feeling of belonging and excitement in that you're on this bigger mission, it isn't just about making profit, it's actually about what excites their team so much, him especially that really makes him happy about that, it's not just making money thing, is that you can really feel like they're on a mission that is going to potentially not just influence the brands they work with, but ideally, also influence everybody else, their peers in the industry. And our peers could be either competitors to what vvast does, and there's not many at the moment, or the actual competitors of some of their brands that go, okay, that's a really good idea that if, for example, they deploy a type of version of Shopify, there's much more low energy for the end user and also for the hosting environment that they use.

So, they're willing to share how they've actually achieved that, in the same way that Volvo did when they designed the seatbelt, they made the Payton open source that meant the whole car industry could then adopt that and save millions of lives.

So, they feel like they're in a place where they can create just a great passion for what they did in terms of like, they can address the climate emergency, they can start to, or at least be part of that solution to the climate emergency. They can start to say to people, that they've got a way of engaging ethically in eCommerce selling techniques.

And all those things join back to this kind of common purpose that exist in the business itself, it's phenomenal how the B Corp kind of framework gives you this, what it does is literally a framework to actually implement some of the findings and learnings to actually get you to turn your company mission statement into a set of values that then your team will do and live day in day out and you can attach those to the team objectives.

So, if someone has a team objective for that particular quarter, for example, an individual has an objective, you can say what company value are you actually going to attach that to and you can benchmark it. And they actually have an award that they give out once a month, it's called a vvasterfy award, it’s quite bizarre in a shaped you mentioned surfing earlier, he’s not sure if you're familiar what a shackle is, which is you stick your two fingers up on each end of your palm, but your thumb out and then your finger out the other way and you sort of do a shackle, which is a surfing thing.

Me: I've never surfed before, but I'm a good swimmer.

Richie stated that It's basically a golden shackle that they give to people each month who have demonstrated the best, they've exemplified their values in the best way. And an example of one of their values is for planner and community. And it's like demonstrating how they've managed to lower impact to improve their impact on obviously on the planet, but also on their community as well.

And those are great ways to meet. They’ve given away a month's worth of charity days in terms of their teams, so each team member can spend a day and maybe two, if it's a great sort of thing if the workload or allows working at a charity that they believe in, or an NGO. And that's another example, they are just living that example by their kind of company mission, really. And it's all made possible, really by that whole B Corp sort of framework that they can then report against, really. Those are probably the biggest ways that they demonstrate that purpose, really.

App, Website or Tool that Richie Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Richie stated that that's a great question. So, where they're at now, and he promises, it's not an advert. He thinks a tool that is a kind of a playbook, where they store all of their insights and their processes in terms of a new product launch, or a new starter joins, or someone leaves or whatever it is, is a platform called Asana. And they've gone through two or three tools that have a similar to Asana. But they now using it to a point now where they literally can just fire up all kinds of processes and tasks, simple things that if there was a data, he’s just thinking now in terms of the more customer centric stuff. If someone did a data request, “Okay, I want you to delete all my data that this brand has on me. Can you confirm your do that within in 48 hours?” Which is what the legislation says they need to do. So, they have a process, they just fire up in Asana and bosch it’s done, the team, they are pulling in the right sort of way. He thinks that that has been a game changer for them. And it exists the costs in a web browser and also in app on desktop as well. So, that's probably the one he would choose out of all of them.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Richie

When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Richie stated that the classic one at the moment, he’s referencing quite a lot at the moment is The Power of Why, which is a Simon Sinek book, which is was probably his first kind of big mass market success, he'd say. And that talks about going right back to what is your purpose? Why does your company even exist? What gets you out of bed? It literally will pull you right back out of all of the kind of mode you’re in to a to go on that journey about literally why is so important, and is definitely worth a follow on LinkedIn, if you can, Simon Sinek he's really great. And he is now really sort of taking things, his success with COVID was phenomenal, is taking it to the whole next level, and what you can do, but that's a great, great book to start with.

He thinks another one is one called Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike, which is the story autobiography, actually, written by the founder of Nike. And just on a personal level, but also, we all know about the kind of sacrifices you have to make when you start a business.

And he encapsulates that whole summary. And also, he should say, is also the founder of Nike as well, which is Phil Knight. And in that book, it takes you on such a journey about him going from bedroom start-up literally from his, his classically educated academic dad questioning why on earth he wants to set up a trainer brand in the first place, all the way through to the end where the business is obviously worth billions.

The most successful kind of shoe and apparel business on the planet, so to speak, really. And he thinks it's a fascinating read, and it's actually very inspiring. He relates to it because of how he's engaged in community in such a clever way, especially through active sports. And they obviously started in running but when diversified, obviously, all kinds of areas like basketball as we all know. So, that's a really inspiring read or recommend that to anyone, even if they're not in the kind of lifestyle, fashion businesses. It's a great read.

What Richie is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Richie shared that they are like six years old and that feels like they're older, but feels like at the moment, they're going through the stage where they're really going up from being like teenagers who are probably coming home late at night, and their parents are worried about them sort of thing, to actually go in into this amazing stage where they're going, they're really, really accountable. They've always been accountable at this next level of accountability, where they're now doubling down on their processes, how teams are iterating things. And they've been on this amazing journey with an external company, he’s going to name drop them, which they're based in Bristol, a company called Loonos. And a good friend of his who runs it as well, two friends of his, and these guys have done an amazing job in terms of coming in and evaluating where they're at as a business and in providing them krushi with these really simple tools to help them transition into this grown up versions of themselves. And the process is called Launchpad. And it's been an amazing, it's gruelling as well, he'll be honest, in terms of how he’s running the company at the same time, you got to keep all your people on the same page, that this journey is worth it.

But he can really see already from the green sheets, he’s seen already that this process is going to be transformative in terms of how they get on to the amazing work they do for their brands that he internally call this the gold that they're creating, out into the ether to demonstrate all of the value to their brands, because they don't talk about it enough. They see so many things, but the passion doesn't always come out sometimes. And that's just purely a product of people just delivering the day to day and not taking that time, like Simon says to ask what the Why is and go, “Oh, by the way, we've seen this, look at this solution we've got, would you be interested in doing it with us?” So that probably is the single biggest piece and he can't wait to continue on the journey to keep on delivering against that.

Where Can We Find Richie Online

Website – www.vvast.net

LinkedIn – Richie Jones

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Richie Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Richie stated that he thinks it's probably a quote he just tell himself so when adversity strikes, and sometimes you'll be on top of something that's even more, you've been dealing with, just for the business, you might be in peak trading, or whatever the challenges are, he just tells himself that, “This is what you do, you can do this. You can face this adversity.” And the saying that comes in his head sometimes, it's kind of “This is what you're here to do. And you can do this, you demonstrate this to yourself multiple times that you can just navigate.” If you'd have to stay up until 3:00 am one day and just navigate something because you have to do something you need to do last minute, you can do it. And he thinks it's that reminder that we've got the ability to push on through to that next level, way beyond what you think you can do, mentally and also physically. He learned that from sports especially. So, it's that thing that it's what you were meant to do. And if it's meant to happen, you will be able to do it. That's the kind of thing he tells himself and at the moment he seems to be proving to himself that that he can do that which is a cool feeling.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike by Phil Knight

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience Webinar – New Date

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Jim Oliver founded Create Tailwind in 1988 in Denver, Colorado. Originally, a full-service financial planning firm, Jim and his team weathered two major corrections on Wall Street and pivoted Create Tailwind’s focus to building wealth beyond Wall Street. Teaching clients to create wealth without Wall Street brokers and financial planners took off, to most people becoming their own banker was something they couldn't envision.

Most people park their money in qualified plans or with a broker and hope that the money grows. Jim reminds his clients that hope is not a strategy. He teaches his clients that becoming their own banker means they accumulate money, and they deploy it to make it even more money, this is the mind shift.

Under Jim's leadership Create Tailwind exploded to become a multilocation nationally recognized firm helping 1000s of individuals and businesses around the United States.

Questions

• So, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share with our listeners a little bit about their journey, how they got to where they are today. So, could you take some time on share that with our listeners, Jim?

• Could you take some time to share with our listeners a little bit about your company – Create Tailwind? I know I read about it in the bio, and in terms of what you help them doing, just share with us, what are some of the value-added opportunities that you are offering to your clients?

• What are some of the key things that you try to do with your clients in terms of supporting them? I know you offer the courses and you're teaching them a theory. But let's say for example, you're working with a client, this mindset that you're trying to encourage or envision, it's not clicking for them. What are some strategies or techniques that you utilise, to kind of get those persons on board to transition them from where they are to where you want them to be?

• What are some things that you found, give me three things that you find tend to be general obstacles that prevent persons from reaching their maximum potential when it comes to wealth? And then you listen to all of these podcasts and you listen to all of these or read these books, and they say there's a difference between being rich and being wealthy. How do you get people because if you look them up in the Oxford dictionary, they pretty much have the same meaning. So, how would you differentiate?

• Could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• Could you also share with our listeners what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Before we wrap our episodes up, Jim, we always like to ask our guests, could you provide us with a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this code, it kind of helps to get you back on track, if for any reason you got derailed.

Highlights

Jim’s Journey

Jim shared that he was born in Los Angeles. And he has five siblings, and he was a middle child, but he was given up for adoption. And this is kind of the PG version, but his mother, his birth mother said that she was raped, and her husband thought that she had an affair. He (Jim) found out at 55 years old that he was actually his father. But he grew up in foster care and then he grew up in a very poor area of Los Angeles.

And he became fascinated with money and he also became fascinated with business owners because he started working in a casket factory when he was 13 years old, swinging a hammer and he watched the business owner and he knew that he lived on the hill of Palace Vertis, which was a foreign country to him.

It was where people had wealth, they had abundance, they had all of these things, that the people in his neighbourhood, they didn't have any of those things. And he really just was driven by what do those people that live on the hill know and by the beach know and in Beverly Hills know that the people that live in Inglewood and neighbourhoods like that, that they don't know. And he went to school, did everything the way that he was supposed to, learned about Wall Street and investments. And he did that, and he was very successful at building a financial planning firm.

But then he realized that his clients weren't getting wealthy in Wall Street. And he analyzed all of his clients and he threw out all the ones that got lucky. They were the janitor at Google and they just made millions of dollars. He threw the lucky ones out and he said, “What is it that my clients, my really wealthy clients, what have they done to become wealthy?” And it came down to two things, business owners and real estate. And he changed his whole focus to teach people how to be business owners, and how to own real estate, and how to build cash flow and assets, instead of Wall Street instruments and government-controlled plans.

About Jim’s Company Create Tailwind and Value-Added Opportunities for Clients

Me: Could you take some time to share with our listeners a little bit about your company – Create Tailwind? I know I read about it in the bio, and in terms of what you help them doing, just share with us, what are some of the value-added opportunities that you are offering to your clients?

Jim shared that the other thing that he realized is that every financial planner in the world is trying to sell something to their prospects, clients, customers, and he didn't like that, he didn't want to sell. So, what he decided is that the reason that he decided to personally start to build cash flow instead of instruments, assets instead of instruments, and not try to build up this lump sum, nest egg, is he became more and more educated about cash flow and assets, and banking, and becoming his own banker, and how he could control the banking function in his life.

And so, he decided that what he would do is he would just educate other people. So, the way that they serve their clients, and really help them understand the landscape out there, and how to build wealth, is they educate them. They have a community, that's Create Tailwind community. And it's Create Tailwind, because they’re all fighting a financial headwind, and he’s showing you how to turn that around so that wind will actually push you forward, instead of fight against your progress.

And at the community Create Tailwind, they just teach people, they teach people and the community members teach each other. But they have courses, they have discussions, they have book recommendations, they have book reviews, they have all of these different things that is intended to do one thing, educate their customers, and anybody really that is interested, anybody can join the community for free. And they learn about taxes and how to be more tax invisible, they learn about becoming their own bank, how a bank works, and how you can control the banking function in your life instead of the commercial bank. How your need for finance over your lifetime is much greater than your need for an investment. All of these things, they’re basically teaching people so that if they choose, they can change their mindset. And they can change their path to where they're on the path of wealth, instead of the path of financial slavery, like most people are.

Strategies and Techniques Utilized to Transition from Where They Are to Where They Want Them to Be

Me: What are some of the key things that you try to do with your clients in terms of supporting them? I know you offer the courses and you're teaching them the theory. But let's say for example, you're working with a client, this mindset that you're trying to encourage or envision, it's not clicking for them. What are some strategies or techniques that you utilize, to kind of get those persons on board to transition them from where they are to where you want them to be?

Jim stated that that's a great question. And what they do is they do Zoom meetings, even way before COVID. They did Zoom meetings, and originally it was WebEx back in the day. And they will get on there and they will do Q&A…whatever questions you have….whatever things aren't making sense. And he has this board that he draws on, it's a graphics board.

And he finds that people learn visually, a lot more than they learned verbally and so, when you're thinking about money and the way money flows, and the way that money works, they need to see numbers, they need to see the flow. So, he draws that out, or the team draws that out for them.

And they can see it and they can say, “Hey, but I don't understand this. I don't understand that.” They can ask any question they want. They do that individually and one on one on a Zoom meeting, so you don't have to ask the question in front of a group.

They also occasionally do live Q&A meetings where the community will ask questions live, and they answer those questions live. And so, that's really the big focus is that and they’re always building more content, more content to help their clients understand what they need financially out there in the world, and how to protect themselves and their families and their businesses.

Obstacles Preventing Persons from Reaching Their Maximum Potential When it Comes to Wealth

Me: Now, Jim, you've been doing this for quite a bit a years now. What are some things that you found, give me three things that you find tend to be general obstacles that prevent persons from reaching their maximum potential when it comes to wealth? And then you listen to all of these podcasts and you listen to all of these or read these books, and they say there's a difference between being rich and being wealthy. How do you get people because if you look them up in the Oxford dictionary, they pretty much have the same meaning. So, how would you differentiate?

Jim shared that the first is show them what is happening now. If you put money in a 401 K, or an IRA, or some government backed programme, that has rules, penalties, all this stuff, or if you put money in Wall Street, here's what's happening to it. Here's how inflation works. Here's how fees and expenses inside those funds work. Here's how commissions work. And so, it's kind of like, if you know what's happening, you'll know what to do. So, the first thing if somebody doesn't realize what's happening to their money, he has to show them how a bank works. And so, they kind of show them what really is going on.

The second thing is, the second obstacle is that we've been filled with noise. And the funny thing is, he heard this number, and he really think that it's accurate, is that we see 5000 marketing messages a day. Now, it could be on TV, it could be a logo on somebody's shirt. But all of that is designed to get our money to flow away from us. We see a shirt that we like on TV and it has the logo, and you think I want that shirt, I want those shoes, somebody is wearing shoes, they're driving a car, if you think of all the input, all of that noise every day, but there's nothing that's designed to help us increase our cash flow. It's designed to get us to flow our money away from us to someone else. And the difference between wealthy people and poor people, is wealthy people get money to flow to them. And poor people, all their money flows away from them. And so, that's the second obstacle.

And then the third obstacle is, “Okay, I understand what's happening, I get that I've been taught the wrong things about money. But I don't have anybody to help me, I don't have anybody to help me get from where I am to where I want to be.” So that's the third thing that he would say is that you have to find a coach. Whatever community that you're in, it doesn't matter whether you're in a lower income community, inner city, rural, it doesn't matter. There are people in that community that are buying assets that own the apartment complexes, the mobile home parks, the RV parks, the businesses, they own those things, and they are more than happy to help you if you ask.

So, the third thing and how what he really believe that you have to have is you have to have a guide, you have to have a coach, if you think about it, in every movie that you've ever seen, the person that has a problem meets a guy, they need a coach and that coach helps them overcome their dilemma. Tiger Woods, the greatest golfer of all time, he has a coach and the reason is, is that so the coach can help him learn how to do what he does better and better and better and give him the confidence.

So, those are the three things that he believes that are obstacles for people to grow their wealth and have everything in life that they want and have that abundant mindset that is limitless in creating cash flow to them.

App, Website or Tool that Jim Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about online resources that he cannot live without in his business, Jim shared that he would say that it’s Zoom, because that's how they communicate with their clients and there are other competitors, but he finds Zoom to be the easiest for his clients and customers to use. It doesn't require that you join or login or anything else, you can just go to the www.zoom.us and plug in the meeting and plug in the password if there is one, and you're in the meeting. And you could be meeting with anybody at any time 24/7 and you could see the person, the person can share and use a whiteboard, and they can do all kinds of things. So, that's the one thing that he wouldn't be able to operate his business without.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Jim

When asked about books that have a great impact, Jim shared that he'll give one from a really long time ago and it always kind of surprises people, but it's Jonathan Livingston Seagull: The Complete Edition and it's by Richard Bach. He's the author and they used to, he’s (Jim) 57 years old, so they don't make kids read this anymore. But here's the gist of the book is Jonathan Livingston Seagull is a seagull and seagulls don't have very exciting lives, they eat, they fly from here to there, they don't do anything.

But Jonathan, he wanted to fly and do stunts, and he wanted to go out and see what was out there in the world. Well, when you grow up poor in Los Angeles, and you think, is this it? Do I just have to stay here and accept my life as it is, and be poor the rest of my life? Well, Jonathan Livingston Seagull taught him, “No I don't, I can go out and do other things. I can be anything that I want to be.” And so, that book had a huge impact on him.

And then the second one is Rich Dad, Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not! By Robert T. Kiyosaki, because it gave him an example, he didn't like school very much. And so, if the path, the only path was to study hard, get a good job, get straight A's in school, and then work his way up the ladder and hope that he was in the good old boys’ club. He doesn't think he could have done that. But Rich Dad, Poor Dad showed him an alternative, it showed him a different way that it didn't really matter about his formal education, it was how he educated himself outside of school, the mentors that he had, the people that had what he wanted, and that would share with me how they did it.

What Jim is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Jim shared that the one thing that he’s really excited about is he has a book coming out in June 17, 2023. And like he said, he struggled in school. So, he was a stutter, he didn't write very well. So, for him to write a book, he’s really excited and proud of the fact that he’s telling his kind of life story in the beginning, in his humble beginnings, and kind of where he is now. And then if he can do it, you can do it. And so, he’s excited to share that message with people and give them the foundation of how to start today to change their lives.

Me: Nice. So, we will definitely ensure that we are able to keep in touch with you so that we will have first dibs on that book when it is released.

Jim stated that he would love that.

Where Can We Find Jim Online

Email – jimoliver@createtailwind.com

Website – www.community.createtailwind.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jim Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Jim shared that one thing is there's an old quote that he changed it was, “Adversity introduces a man to himself.” Now, that's an old quote. So, he says, “Adversity introduces a person to themselves.” And it reminds him that in the Bible, it says that we are going to have trials.

And that trials, it says that, that those trials will introduce us to ourselves, that it will create confidence, that it will create strength, that God is like stirring this pot of silver and getting rid of the impurities until He can see His reflection in us. And so, getting rid of those impurities is adversity and obstacles and they just make you stronger, they make you who you are, so when you're in the middle of it, just remember that that adversity is going to introduce you as a person to who you really are and it's only going to make you stronger.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Jonathan Livingston Seagull: The Complete Edition by Richard Bach

· Rich Dad, Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Rheir Kids About Money That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not! By Robert T. Kiyosaki

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Service

Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners

Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”

The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

The ABC’s of a Fantastic Customer Experience Webinar – New Date

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View Details

Lisa loves a good puzzle. After witnessing the confusion that ensued after new technology systems were integrated into offices in the 90s, she didn't panic, she saw an opportunity to establish effective processes that support employees and businesses grappling with evolving technology. Then a pattern emerged: internal teams kept failing to communicate with one another in the wake of change. To respond, Lisa founded Lcubed Consulting. As CEO of Lcubed, Lisa helps companies align people, processes, and technology to utilize agility as a strategic advantage and acknowledge change in a business constant.

Her secret sauce to success is leveraging key elements of Project Management, Process Performance Management, Internal Controls and Organisational Change Management to build teams with the skills and capabilities to drive strategic results.

Lisa is the #1 best-selling author of Future Proofing Cubed, a book she created to share her insights on productivity, profitability, and process refinement in business. Lisa's goal is to prepare her clients with the skills, capabilities, and self-reliance they need to thrive in the future without Lcubed’s guidance. With this notion, she has broken the typical consulting model.

Lisa holds her Bachelor of Science in Electronic Media Management from Northern Arizona University. She is a Project Management Professional and Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt. Lisa enjoys spending free time with her family and basset hounds.

Questions

• We'd like to hear in your own words, did you arrive on this journey? How did you get to where you are today? Could you share that with our audience?

• Now, could you tell us a little bit about your company, Lcubed Consulting and also your book, Future Proofing Cubed?

• If you could share with our audience maybe you could skew it down to a particular type of industry, maybe 1 to 3 things that if you're really trying to run a successful business with the right people, what are 1 to 3 tips that you'd recommend in terms of the culture and the environment needs to be existing for you to attract and keep the person that you want?

• Emerging out of the pandemic, what has been your experience with some of your clients in terms of customer experience, have you seen customers maybe be more demanding for service experiences or delivery? Are they putting on their foot to ensure they're getting a certain type of service? Or have you seen maybe a more relaxed type of customer, what has your experience been with your clients as well as you as a customer yourself?

• So, I would also like for you to share with our listeners, Lisa, what's the one tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you've read recently, or even a book that you read a very long time ago, that has had a big impact on you.

• Could you also share with our listeners, Lisa, let's say, we have listeners who are business owners and managers who feel like they have great products and services, but they lack the constantly motivated human capital. So, the people are just not motivated. If you're sitting in a room with that person right now, what's the one piece of advice you would give them to have a successful business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Where can listeners find you online?

• Before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share with us a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Lisa’s Journey

Me: Now, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how they got to where they are today. So, I know that your bio kind of gives a pretty good summary of how it is that you got to where you are today. We'd like to hear in your own words, did you arrive on this journey? How did you get to where you are today? Could you share that with our audience?

Lisa stated that because the journey really is the story, it's what matters in our personal lives, our professional lives. She is an accidental entrepreneur, she left college with the desire to find safety and security in a corporate job, she was looking for a place where she would go to work, she would have paid vacation time, she would have bonuses, she would have things that seemed like they would give security. And those were important to her because her parents were entrepreneurs. And that journey isn't always a smooth one.

And so, she wanted something that she perceived at the time to be easier and to be safer. Fifteen years into that journey, she realised it was the early 2000s. And actually, things were a little difficult. And it was in 2008 and 2009, she was working for a start-up, it was her dream job, it was everything she had hoped that it was going to be, she was building a project management team, they were growing and scaling and going to do amazing things until she looked around and realised that every executive leader had built a fiefdom of external consultants who are coaching and guiding and advising them on how to protect their fiefdom. And none of them were working with each other and it was not safe and it was not secure and the economy tanked.

And she looked around and said, “Oh my gosh, I can do something better.” And in that moment, she became an entrepreneur, and started a business and it’s 14 years later, it has not been seamless, it has not been without obstacles and challenges. But it's been fantastic because she’s the one designing the journey and the bumps in the road are learning moments, and she wouldn't change anything. It's been great.

About Lisa’s Company Lcubed Consulting and Lisa’s Book Future Proofing Cubed

Lisa shared that Lcubed was born out of that frustration that she had watching consulting teams come into environments over her entire career and land and expand. And she would see that they were in these environments under the auspices of helping the client, but really what they were doing was growing their revenue stream. And she finds that somewhat abhorrent and counter to what consulting is supposed to be about. And she decided that she wanted to do things differently. She wanted to take all of the knowledge and the skills and the experience that she had built up in larger corporations, learning and understanding the impact of Project Management, Process Management, Organisational Change, and using all of those tools and capabilities to help her clients deliver better products and services for their clients, while building self-reliance so that she can take herself and her team eventually out of that equation. She didn't want them to become dependent on her.

The book Future Proofing Cubed: The Definitive Guide to Improving Productivity, Refining Processes, and Bolstering Profitability takes their business model, what they call adaptive transformation, and sort of explains how they use all of those baked best practices in a much more effective and efficient way so that companies can build those skills and capabilities without large investments in internal teams, or large consulting groups.

In Running a Successful Business - Tips to Attract and Keep the Person That You Want

Me: Now, in an organisation, as a consultant, I'm sure you know, there's some key things that a lot of companies still struggle with, having the right kind of synergy among the team. A lot of organisations struggle sometimes with recruitment, getting the right person and actually keeping them. And so, if you could share with our audience maybe you could skew it down to a particular type of industry, maybe 1 to 3 things that if you're really trying to run a successful business with the right people, what are 1 to 3 tips that you'd recommend in terms of the culture and the environment needs to be existing for you to attract and keep the person that you want?

Lisa stated absolutely, it may be an oversimplification. But she thinks that knowing what success in the environment looks like. With some of her smaller companies, they do work and they use Lencioni’s idea of hungry, humble and smart, that if you have an employee who has the ability, they're hungry, they want new opportunities, they want to learn, they want to grow, they want to make an impact. If they're humble and able to say I don't know what I don't know. And they're smart, meaning that they can pick up and reader a room and understand what's going on with internal and even with your client engagements. If you have those three things, any technical capability can be taught. But if a person shows up hungry, humble and smart, you can build a team of people who can do anything.

Experiences Customers Are Desirous of Now

Me: Great. So, I love those three points that you just brought across. So, we've identified the three things we want to ensure that the team member has and as you mentioned, you can teach any technical skill, I guess it kind of goes back to you really want to ensure you have persons with the right attitude versus aptitude. Because you can't train on attitude, right? But even getting further and deeper into that, our programme is about navigating the customer experience and the experience that the customer has is not just on the outside, but also on the inside. And I'm a firm believer that if you really want to have a strong customer experience, it starts from within. If it's strong internally, then it's quite easy for your employees to perpetuate, and relive that externally with your actual clients that are paying, they're the reason why you're in business.

And so, what has your experience been? We've just emerged out of the pandemic, some countries are still feeling somewhat of the effects of it. I mean, COVID is not completely gone. But what has been your experience with some of your clients and wherever you are in, in which part of the world in terms of customer experience, have you seen customers maybe be more demanding for service experiences or delivery? Are they putting down their foot to ensure they're getting a certain type of service? Or have you seen maybe a more relaxed type of customer, what has your experience been with your clients as well as you as a customer yourself?

Lisa shared that there's so many things in that to play with. She wants to play with the language right, that the experience starts within. She absolutely agree with that, that internally, we have to understand the experience we want our customers to have. There's a disconnect, more often than not, when we think from the inside out and think that we know what our customers want and need. And she likes to sort of flip that upside down a little bit and teach her clients to think from the outside in.

And what she means by that is actually asking their customers what they want, what they need, so that they’re not making guesses. And they’re not making assumptions, and they’re not applying their own wants and needs onto potentially what their customers wants and needs are. Because oftentimes, when we do that, on the inside, we're really wrong and we don't truly understand. So, starting on the outside and understanding the customer, where are they at? What do they need? And with her clients in the pandemic, they had to do a lot of that because all of their wants and needs in March of 2020 changed dramatically. And so, polling and getting that data and asking the questions so that they can adapt their products and their services to those needs. And it's the need they have today, but the big impact is what does their needs going to be tomorrow, in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days.

During the pandemic, she had the opportunity to watch one of her clients respond to the shutdown. So, the company is a food distribution organisation and they have a national presence in the United States. Their primary job is to take food from a warehouse and deliver it to restaurants, and service providers in hospitals, in airports, in large conference centres, getting food to places where it's going to be cooked and served and sold. Overnight, their business shut down for two weeks or so they thought. And they had the opportunity, they basically froze and did nothing initially, until they brought the leadership team together in this world called Zoom that they had never interacted in. There were people meeting each other, seeing each other in face to face interaction for the first time in 20 years, they've just never been in the same space together. They're panicked, they’re at home, everything is a nightmare.

And one person is raising their hand literally shaking their hand in front of the camera trying to get everybody's attention to say, “Hey, I have an idea. We have all this food in our warehouses. And it's not getting to people who need to eat, we have produce, we have things that are going to start spoiling and serve no use to anybody if they're rotting in the warehouse. How about we figure out how to take our food and deliver it to shelters, to food kitchens, to places where there are people who cannot get to food, we're going to spoil it off, we're going to write it off, it's going to waste one way or another, why don't we make it a donation.” And for the first 30 days of the pandemic, that national company donated food because their customers, people who need to eat needed food. It had nothing to do with their bottom line, it had absolutely nothing to do with anything except doing the right thing.

In that first interaction where one individual had an idea, they all thought about it, they experimented about how to make it actually happen. They learned how to innovate on the fly. And that's important because they were speaking to the customers need and for them, it wasn't their customer, it was their customers’ customer, a hungry person. And they were solving a problem that did absolutely nothing to drive their business forward except they did the right thing.

What they learned from that was how to innovate and how to think outside of the box, think from the outside in. And as a leadership and management team today, they are still doing that on a quarterly basis and trying to evolve their business model in a way that it hasn't in 40 years. It is wow because they thought from the customer's perspective wants and needs, they solved the problem. We need to solve problems.

Me: And as you mentioned that, Lisa, that we need to solve problems. That's the primary reason why everyone is in business. I remember when I started my company in 2009, it was because one of my greatest pet peeves was I thought service was just so poor. And I said, I'm going to stop complaining. And I'm going to start being a part of the solution, and try to help these organisations to improve on their service delivery. So, when I go and have interactions, I can walk away with a better feeling than the one that I'm currently having. So, I think every business is solving a problem, whether you're selling a pencil or a fan, or you're servicing somebody's motor vehicle, or you're providing some innovative solution or product that's going to revolutionize the industry for aviation, or whatever it is. I think all businesses are solving a problem for someone. And I think, if we come, as you mentioned, from the outside in, to kind of understand where the customer is coming from, and how can we ease their frustration? How can we make life easier for them, that we can definitely create a better experience, both internally and externally.

App, Website or Tool that Lisa Absolutely Can’t Live Without in Her Business

When asked about online resources that cannot live without in her business, Lisa shared that there are so many, but she’s going to go with the one that surprises her the most, because she would never have imagined this, she cannot live without Canva. She would never in a million years have ever thought that she would use a marketing tool, a graphic design, well, now it's kind of an everything tool, right? Presentations, video, audio, whatever, it does it all. She loves it, it makes everything so much faster, so much easier. She’s doing work for herself that she probably should be outsourcing but it's kind of fun to do it and it looks really good. So yeah, she cannot live without Canva.

Me: Agreed, Canva has definitely revolutionised the industry and it's made graphic designing not seem like, “Oh, my goodness, I can't do this.” Because simple things that you'd have outsourced as you mentioned, you can do on your own. And they look pretty good. So, you're saving a few bucks there for sure.

Lisa stated that saving a few minutes of time even right? So, you outsource it and things turn into, hopefully days, not weeks. But it's easy enough that a person who has no skills in graphic design can turn something out in minutes, it's fabulous.

Me: My daughter is in her final year in high school and she's a part of the school newspaper and she sees me use Canva and she asked me if she could, like play around with it a bit to put out some stuff that she wanted to do promoting for the newspaper and for the school. And I guess at that age at 17, you're creative and innovative. But she wasn't even using the platform for like an hour and I was just so surprised that the newsletter that she produced, the video that she was able to generate from all of the pictures that she had taken. I mean, just simply amazing, I'm not saying that she couldn't have used other applications but as you mentioned, Canva kind of found a way to bundle everything in one so you could just do all the things in that one platform.

Lisa absolutely agreed. And they made it easy for an end user who has no skills in those areas. There are lots of applications out there and she’ll use video editing as an example, but you have to be very, very, very skilled in the application to make it work properly. And Canva just sort of magically does it for us.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Lisa

When asked about books that has had a big impact, Lisa shared that the number one book that always comes to her mind first and foremost is Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High by Kerry Patterson. As leaders and as people, we need to understand how to communicate effectively and that one, it's so foundational to everything that it affects your personal life, your business life, how we show up, how we support others. It's always kind of the first thing that pops to her mind.

There's another book called Flip the Script: Getting People to Think Your Idwa Is Their Idea by Oren Klaff. And as her business was growing and evolving, and off the top of her head, she can't think of the author's name. But it's taking people who run and have their businesses, sales is part of what we have to do. But we may or may not have ever been trained to be salespeople. And we may or may not even like the connotation of being a salesperson, and Flip the Script really did a lot in her mindset to help her understand that selling is a by-product of building good and effective relationships.

And that is far more comfortable to her than the idea of going after and creating a sales pipeline and all of the technical things about what selling is, and reminding her that after now 14 years, she obviously must be able to close a deal, or she wouldn't still be doing what she’s doing. And she doesn't have to have the traditional sales process to make it work, because relationships are really where business comes from.

Me: Agreed. I liked that statement you made, Sales is a by-product of building effective relationships, that's really, really true. And you said that you got that mindset, or it shaped your mindset towards that from the book called Flip the Script.

Advice for Business Owners and Managers who Lack Constant Motivated Human Capital

Me: Could you also share with our listeners, Lisa, let's say, we have listeners who are business owners and managers who feel like they have great products and services, but they lack the constantly motivated human capital. So, the people are just not motivated. If you're sitting in a room with that person right now, what's the one piece of advice you would give them to have a successful business?

Lisa stated that there's a challenge in that question because if we have a room full of employees who aren't motivated, there is a very flippant part of her personality that wants to say, “Do you have the right people in the room to grow and scale your business?”

And that's a very scary question because if the answer is, “No, I don't”….then what.

So, and then, the then what mindset we need to understand what motivates our employees and if we have really good people that have been with us, and are no longer performing, do we understand what's changed in their world?

Do they need a new opportunity, internally within the organisation in a different role? Have they lost the drive to contribute to this type of business?

Do we need to help them find an opportunity outside of this business?

Which is a scary thought, but sometimes the right one, and just because we're separating from a relationship doesn't mean that we're ending it poorly. And Lisa’s experience, she’s had several examples of times when she’s taken employees, help them find their next opportunity.

They were so much more successful, her existing team was more successful, and they’ve maintained a relationship over time. So, finding that alignment of what's in it for me, and why are they still there? And if they aren't being fulfilled, are there opportunities to train them, coach them? Give them the opportunity to make a change inside or is it that it's time for them to move on onward and outward?

And there's nothing wrong with that, if that's the right choice.

Me: Love it. I've asked this particular question, I don't ask it very often. But I've asked it a few times since I’ve started podcasting and I must say your answer, I really like it's different. Most people didn't take it from the angle that you took it from and I liked the fact that you focused on the fact that maybe we just don't have the right people. And if so, even though it's scary, what can we do to make that transition? Because that's the only way we're going to be able to have success, right?

Lisa agreed, absolutely. And the reality is, it's a little bit of everything. You're going to have some people who probably need to move on, you're going to have some people who probably need upskilling….training new opportunities. There's lots of different things, it's never going to be just one thing. But taking on the scary one of “Oh my gosh, I don't have the right people in the right roles.” That's totally addressable.

What Lisa is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that she’s working on that she’s excited about, Lisa shared that the one thing that she’s working on right now that's exciting for her is taking the stories that she has from her business and starting to share them as a keynote speaker, and having the opportunity to inspire through some of her great foibles and some of the successes.

But the very real journey that she’s had over the last 14 years to help other emerging leaders, potential entrepreneurs, or business owners, be able to attribute and say, “Oh, gosh, I've been there done that.” or “Oh, my God, thank you for sharing that story. I never want to have that experience.”

And that opportunity and sharing to larger audiences is really a lot of fun. And it's eye opening for her to hear and get the response that something hit and it was meaningful. And hopefully, she’s sharing some golden nuggets along the way that will help them learn lessons from her mistakes rather than having to make them for themselves.

Where Can We Find Lisa Online

LinkedIn – Lisa L. Levy

Website – www.lisallevy.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Lisa Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that she tends to revert to, Lisa shared that there's a quote, but it's a Hemingway quote that has been butchered by many. And so I'll continue to do it. But it takes from the idea that if we break something, if we break a bone in our body, when it heals that spot on that bone is stronger than the original bone around it. And so, when we're having difficult times, the purpose and the reason that it resonates for her is that we can learn from our hardest moments. She likes to think of everything as an experiment and it's not about success or failure, it's about what we learn from the outcome of the experiment.

And so, all of those things are always kind of in her mind whirling around in a not coherent fashion, the way that she’s talking right now is very much what's in her head. But it's about being willing to take the risk, do an experiment, if something breaks, it'll heal, and it'll be stronger. And we don't really necessarily fail, we learn things so that we can make different choices the next time. And those are the things that drive her forward every day.

Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest

Links

· Future Proofing Cubed: The Definitive Guide to Improving Productivity, Refining Processess, and Bolstering Profitability by Lisa Levy

· Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes are High by Kerry Patterson

· Flip the Script: Getting People to Think Your Idea Is Their Idea by Oren Klaff

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View Details

Scott Baradell is a writer and entrepreneur who grew his PR agency Idea Grove, with business generated by its popular blog. Idea Grove is one of the top 25 tech PR agencies in the United States, a three-time Inc. 5000 company, and an inc. Best Workplaces in 2021 and 2022.

In 2020, Scott started a second blog, Trust Signals, to provide news, analysis, and practical advice on what it takes to build trust with customers and the public in today's post-truth world. The blog inspired and culminates in this book.

Before Idea Grove, Scott was the chief communications officer for two Billion Dollar companies. He's the co-founder and CMO of a venture-backed start-up and an award-winning journalist. He lives in Dallas, Texas with his wife Maria, and children, Juliet, Benjamin, Jack, Christopher and Maggie.

Questions

• Even though I read your bio, which is a formal description of who you are, we love for our guests to tell our audience in their own words a little bit about how they got to where they are today. So, could you share that for us?

• So, can you tell us a little bit about your book Trust Signals, maybe two or three themes that the book talks about and why it's important if you're running a business to be aware of some of these things?

• What do you mean by post-truth world?

• Why do you think trust is so crucial for people when they're making a decision? And do you think it has increased or decreased in recent years?

• What are maybe three to five things that consumers look out for that gives them that confidence that they can trust, they can rely on this organisation?

• We have some listeners who are not very savvy in the online space, but they want to be known as a subject matter expert, what are some steps or trust signals that they could be successful in that online space?

• Could you also share with our listeners what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently.

• Can you also share with our listeners, Scott, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• here can listeners find you online if they wanted to reach out to you?

• Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote? It kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed.

Highlights

Scott’s Journey

Me: Okay, so we always like to ask our guests at the beginning of the conversation before we even delve into the real juice of our conversation a little bit about your journey, Scott. Even though I read your bio, which is a formal description of who you are, we love for our guests to tell our audience in their own words a little bit about how they got to where they are today. So, could you share that for us?

Scott shared that like a lot of people, a lot of things happen by accident. He started out, not really interested in business, per se, he was a writer, he was interested in history. In college, he was editor of a college newspaper, and then he got tired of spending time in the library and decided not to become a history professor. So, he had to go find a job, his parents basically said, find a job within two months of graduation or your cut off. So, he use his clips, his writing from the newspaper that he was editing to get a newspaper job. And it kind of went from there.

He was a journalist for 6 years before he kind of saw the writing on the wall there. And then he went into corporate marketing, which he did for about 15 years and then decided back when blogging and things like that on the corporate side, were first starting to emerge that he wanted to be part of that.

So, he started his own business at that time. But from one space to the next, it was definitely a journey in an evolution where it wasn't all planned out, it's what he likes to tell his 15 year old daughter as well as just young professionals, it's okay, if it's not all planned out, just go in the direction of what you love, and it should work out.

About Scott’s Book Trust Signals

Scott shared that trust signals are just defined as evidence points in the book, he primarily focuses on evidence points online that make you more likely to trust a brand. So, for example, it could be coming across a positive review of a company where the use case sounds similar to how you might use a product or someone you trust, a creator you trust on social media endorsing a company or a media story in which puts the company in a positive light, these are all things that kind of can create a breadcrumb trail that can lead you to a company's website or hopefully, you've reinforced that website with lots of other trust signals like testimonials and case studies and other third parties saying good things about you.

So, that's really the book is about that idea. And he wrote the book specifically with PR people in mind, because PR people have for 100 years primarily defined their roles as getting media coverage, getting their clients mentioned in the media. And in today's post truth world, there's so much fragmentation that there aren't any shared sources of truth anymore.

People go to the media and the other sources of information influence that they trust. And so, what he tries to communicate to his profession since he was a PR pro after he left journalism is, in this day and age, you have to move beyond just trying to get stories for your clients in the media, you have to look at all these other kinds of trust signals that together, help to help your clients to win over audiences and to grow their businesses.

What Does the Concept Post-Truth World Mean?

Me: So, trust signals are critical as you mentioned to grow your business. You mentioned post truth world and I have kind of an idea of what that concept means but I’d love for you to share with our audience, what do you mean by post-truth world?

Scott shared that what he means, is simply that in today's world, as opposed, as recently, as 30-40 years ago, the public doesn't rely on shared sources of truth. It used to be the New York Times was all the news that's fit to print, but now you've got probably a third of the country that says they don't believe a word in that publication. People get on the internet, and algorithms all pointing them towards information that confirms what they already think about things. They go into rabbit holes where they can dive deeper and deeper in a one perspective on things, which could be very different from someone else's and someone else's. And it didn't used to be that way. It used to be that you had a relatively small number of large media organisations that served as kind of the gatekeepers for information, the gatekeepers for public opinion, and it's not like that anymore.

The Importance of Trust and Has It Increased or Decreased in Recent Years

Me: And in an organisation, right, you have customers and well, there is the popular saying that people buy from people who they know, like and trust. And I still believe that to this day, despite all of the technology and artificial intelligence and just so much that has advanced I think that concept still remains whether it's an individual or an organisation. Why do you think trust is so crucial for people when they're making a decision? And do you think it has increased or decreased in recent years?

Scott shared that well, it's crucial to not just business but everything, you're not going to get in your car and drive to the supermarket if you are worried that the red light at the traffic stop is not going to work or that when the green light goes that a car coming from the other way is not going to go, you're trusting that they're going to stop.

Our whole society, everything we do, is built around this intricate system of trust. Most of the time we don't even think about and you're simply not going to buy anything from someone who you don't trust them, because it's impossible to vet almost any product unless you've already used it and it’s the same product thoroughly enough without believing in the source of the product you're buying in.

That's kind of the shorthand that all of us use every day to figure out who I should buy from, who I should work with, who I should work for. An employee is going to potentially someone who's looking for job is going to look at their employer’s glass door ratings before they go work there, that's a trust signal. And if they did find a company they want to work for and they put their resume together, they're going to put in all the best endorsements and kudos they can think of and those are trust signals. So, it makes the world go round.

But you asked, do you think it's decreased? He doesn't think it's decreased because he thinks it's kind of immutable. He thinks that we need it.

Studies go back to even before the earliest days of mankind, and even to primates and stuff in their hunting rituals, they do trust building rituals before they go out and hunt in a group to make sure that they will support each other and share their kills, for example. So, it's just intrinsic to every form of human relationships. So, a lot of people said, “Oh, it's post-trust, not just post-truth, but post-trust, people don't trust anymore.” And he would say that it’s not trust, a trust deficit so much as a trust displacement.

In other words, you used to trust certain big institutions that you don't trust anymore. And so, you have to go find something else to trust. It's like, a big example in politics would be Donald Trump, for example. Donald Trump is someone who many, many people would consider very untrustworthy, however, in looking at his following, it's important to understand that clearly one of the reasons he's been able to develop this following is that many of those people had faith and trust in institutions that they lost that trust in. And people can't be without trust, they had to find somewhere else to put it. And they invested their trust in this person. So, in that way, he says trust is displaced, sometimes you're confused about where to put it. But you almost can't live life without putting it somewhere.

Things Consumers Should Look Out For That Gives Them Confidence to Trust an Organization

Me: So, could you also share with our listeners, maybe, I would say, three to five things that as a consumer you should be looking out for or what are maybe three to five things that consumers look out for that gives them that confidence that they can trust, they can rely on this organisation?

Scott shared that he can give you an actual example, from someone who works for him. She had a baby recently, before she had the baby, she and her husband had been planning a nursery and they'd gone over budget for the nursery. And so, they still hadn't bought a crib mattress and so, they just said, “Let's go get the cheapest crib mattress we can find because we busted our budget already.” So, Laurie is her name, she was going to go do that and then she remembered that like a year earlier, before she'd even become pregnant, that there was an influencer, creator that she followed on Instagram, who was talking about the importance of getting a non-toxic crib mattress, and that had stuck in her mind.

And so, even though her inclination was to just go buy something inexpensive, that stuck in her mind, so she did a Google search on safest crib mattresses. And, sure enough, she could recognize the name of the crib mattress that this influencer on Instagram had mentioned a year earlier. And then once she found that then she looked and looked up all the reviews she could find online, found a bunch of 4- and 5-star reviews. And then that drew her in further and then she found that there was an article in Parents Magazine, saying good things about this crib mattress.

And then finally she went to the company's website and found out they had a seal from the certifying organisation that was vetting non-toxic, environmentally friendly products. And then finally, she was already on the website and she bought the product. And all of those are examples of things that consumers use as a collection of trust signals that they follow to either make a purchase or whatever destination they’re trying to go to.

Me: Brilliant, that's really good. And she did quite a few steps. She did her due diligence thoroughly.

And most people do and when he tells PR people and when he tells that story to them, he says, but would she have bought the crib mattress if she had just seen the Parents Magazine article? Probably not. So, why are you only focusing on that? Why don't you give your customer what they want, your customer wants you to help them build trust.

Trust Signals that Can Be Used to be Successful in the Online Space

Me: So, let's say for example, we have some listeners who are not very savvy in the online space, but they want to be known as a subject matter expert. Similar to what you were saying, that Instagram influencer was able to lodge that piece of information in her mind, right? And it stayed with her up to a whole year later. What are some things that you could do online to establish trust in an online space? Because it's so hard, there's so much noise, there's so many different platforms. And I mean, I know everyone has their own audience and at the end of the day, if that customer is meant for you, they will come to you because whatever message you're sending out there, your message will be attracted to them. But what are some steps or trust signals that they could be successful in that online space?

Scott stated that if someone's interested in becoming a subject matter expert or influencer or building their own personal brand, there's really no substitute for producing great content. People don't know you, they haven't met you in person and they're only going to know who you are, if you show them who you are online. So, he would start by two things, figuring out what channel is most important, are most relevant to your goals that can be LinkedIn. His agency works primarily with B2B tech clients. So, LinkedIn is typically the most important channel. But on your audience, it could be Tik Tok, or Instagram or Twitter or something else. So, it can seem definitely overwhelming out there. So, it's always best to start with a single channel.

He’ll tell you a channel that he used that helped him tremendously when he was starting to write the book is Quora. Quora is a great channel for questions and answers. And maybe you don't always want to talk about PR and marketing, maybe you want to talk about a movie or something like that, it kind of gets your juices flowing in terms of writing. And what he likes about Quora is that, generally, the comments and the engagement is respectful compared to like a Twitter or somewhere where it can be so nasty. So, for him, everyone's different. But whatever channel you choose, choose one channel to start with, and build out from there.

He’s seen again, and again, people that start out on TikTok, for example, build a following, they move over and add Twitter, they move over and add LinkedIn or start on Twitter and then add LinkedIn. So, that's definitely the way to go. Don't try to do it all at once. That's the first most important thing.

And then just like you want to be focused in terms of your channel, be focused in terms of your content. There's so much content out there, it's overwhelming, and half of its being generated by ChatGPT now, so how do you stand out the two ways you stand out, are by talking about the same thing, not the same exact thing, but the same general thing that you're building over and over and over again, because what someone told him once is, by the time you've talked about something 100 times, maybe you might feel tired of it, but the people you're trying to reach are just now hearing it.

So just keep going, keep trying to find new wrinkles, find new ways to stay excited about it, don't move on to some totally different topic before you even build an audience for the first one. So, he thinks being focused in terms of your channel, and focused in terms of your content are the most important things.

App, Website or Tool that Scott Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Scott stated that in his business, they produce a lot of content and content is not very valuable if people aren't seeing it so for him, he’s a huge fan of Google Search Console in their everyday for sure for checking their own two websites. They have Idea Grove, which is his agency, their website, the agency website, as well as the Trust Signals website. He’s looking at that everyday for insights into what content is resonating, what content to produce next, and really helps to inform and drive strategy and they use it for their clients too. He’s got a lot other tools he uses, but that's probably his favourite.

Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Scott

When asked about books that have had impact, Scott shared that there's a book he read a long time ago, actually in college, which unfortunately, was a very long time ago for him but it stayed with him. And it informed a lot of choices he made since actually. It's a book called Simple Justice: The History of Brown v. Board of Education and Black America’s Struggle for Equality, it was written by a historian named Richard Kluger. And he encountered this book, which is a very long one, it's thick, in a yearlong legal history class in college at University of Virginia, and the book was basically a history of illegal cases, which sounds extremely boring. But what it was, that was so amazing, was it was a sweeping history of the entire African American experience as told through the American legal system.

So, in other words, from Dred Scott to Brown versus Board of Education, everything in between, before and after. He took all of these court cases and told the human story behind them in such a way that it was like reading a novel that you couldn't put down and told him that taking something that someone would inherently think, is not that exciting and making it exciting, is really fun, it's a fun challenge.

He works in B2B Tech, or his agency, and they work with some clients that work in very arcane spaces, they do this fairly obscure stuff, sometimes they think they're boring, they're like, “Oh, you can't do anything for us, we're too boring, you can’t get PR for us we’re boring.” But to unlock that and capture the story in there, because there's always a story in there somewhere, to capture that, and to have the client kind of light up, because you help them find that is really exciting. And he kind of, in a lot of ways, goes back to that book and how he went from “Oh, boy, this long book of legal cases to wow” this book that he couldn't put down, it's definitely had a big influence on him.

What Scott is Really Excited About Now!

When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Scott shared that something that’s exciting that they’re doing now is they've began offering their first package product, they're a traditional agency, so like lawyers or accountants, they build by the hour, basically, they sell their time, that's what most agencies do. They've never had a product per se, but they found they've had a lot of success with a specific kind of digital PR campaign where they kind of combined PR and SEO, they put out this really cool piece of content, which is a survey, a base piece of content that ties to their clients, industry, and got it gotten a tonne of media coverage and links back to their client site from them.

But they realised that they could package it up and just sell it separately and do it the same way every time to increase margin on it. And so, they've been having a lot of success selling a product as an agency, this offering and they've never done that before and Idea Grove has been around a long time now and they're all really excited about, doing something they haven't done before, that's always fun.

Where Can We Find Scott Online

Website – www.trustsignals.com

He did a lot of the work that led up to the book on that site. Not only that, but if you're interested in the book, but don't want to go out and spend $20.00 on it. He’s excerpted the entire book chapter by chapter on that site for free, and he’s also now started a podcast where he’s breaking down the audio book into chapter by chapter, so, that's available for free. So, all of that if you go to www.trustsignals.com, you can find links to either the audio or text version of the book or Kindle version as well. As well as a lot of other stuff, as well as contact information if you'd like to reach him directly.

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Scott Uses

When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Scott shared that there's a great quote by a Japanese poet named Kenji Miyazawa from maybe 100 years ago, but he said, “We must take pain and use it as fuel for our journey.” At times, where he’s had loss or other setbacks that are very hard, and you just kind of want to give up. It's a really good statement of what life really is.

Life is about resilience, and no one goes through life without having things that they have to endure and suffering. And if you can come out the other side, and burn it as fuel for your journey, he thinks that's a great way to take something hard and turn it into a positive.

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Links

· Simple Justice: The History of Brown v. Board of Education and Black America’s Struggle for Equality by Richard Kluger

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Romaine Piper is the Founder and CEO of Call Center Escape - an “Upwork” built for BPO companies. Known for his cross-dimensional approach to company growth, he has helped some of the fastest growing start-ups across Silicon Valley, the U.K, and Europe to identify and hone their top growth levers - adding millions to their bottom line.

No one would’ve guessed his 6-year remote work journey in customer success, sales and growth hacking started in the Jamaican BPO industry as a customer support agent for Microsoft - which is why he's back to his roots to make BPO companies that are scaling remotely 1.5 to two times more profitable with an industry-first solution.

Questions

• So, we always like to ask our guests in their own words, if you could share a little bit about your journey, how it is that you ended up on this path?

• So, the BPO industry, it's a very evolving industry, an industry with a high level of attrition. What has been your experience as an owner in this industry for attracting the right talent, and actually keeping the right talent?

• Could you share with our listeners, seeing that you're helping the BPO to strategically position themselves as a value center versus a call center, what are two or three things that you do to help them get to that point?

• What are your views on Artificial Intelligence (AI) replacing human capital?

• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?

• Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that you've read that have had a great impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, that has definitely left a strong mark on you.

• Could you share with our audience what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.

• Can you tell our listeners where they can find you online?

• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed.

Highlights

Romaine’s Journey

Romaine stated that as Yanique mentioned a lot about his background, and the whole tech industry and everything. But here's the plot twist, he actually started off pursuing his career in medicine. And he had really high grades, he got a scholarship from St. John's University in New York. But the thing is, even though they're willing to pay half tuition, he still couldn't afford the other half, so anybody out there that's listening, it's not easy to give it up a scholarship that you've worked really hard for, it's very emotional, he experienced like weeks of crying.

And so, the BPO industry was to him a quote, unquote, fall back period, if that makes sense, where, he just wanted to like dust himself off, put some experience on his resume, and just try to figure out, “Okay, what's next?”

Then he realize this is actually a blessing in disguise, because he worked for Sutherland Global Services, and they placed him on a Microsoft account. Being on the Microsoft account, like fresh out of high school, it's a whole tonne of learning for him. And just to give you like the idea of what it's like, at the time, across all of their customer support teams, they had over 500,000 articles, which is the most he’s ever seen in a knowledge base, ever.

And so, this was what pushed him from liking the tech industry to literally loving the tech industry to craving, to for having that passion, and also into what allowed him to work with start-ups around the world. Within those four years, customer success, sales, growth, hacking, etc, and to be advising start-ups. He remembered to that his mom, he thinks around 3 or 4 years ago say, “Hey, now that you can actually afford to pay the tuition for medicine, like do you ever consider going back?” And he said, “Hey, I'm pretty good at what I already do. I love it.” And like that ship was long sale. So, anybody else out there with the BPO industry being your fall back period, literally, you just take it serious, do really well, and you'll figure it out.

In the BPO Industry – Attracting and Keeping the Right Talent

Me: The BPO industry, it's a very evolving industry, an industry with a high level of attrition. What has been your experience as an owner in this industry for attracting the right talent, and actually keeping the right talent?

Romaine shared that Call Center Escape is radically different because they are a call center, they aren't a BPO. What they instead do is they help contact centers to evolve. In other words, to increase their profit per hour per employee, by 150% to 200% by focusing or helping them to strategically focus on two core things, which is their payback period for every new hire. In other words, how quickly can they break even in all the things that they used to invest in that new hire, as well as the employee lifetime value. In other words, how much is their ROI for each employee over the duration of their tenure at the company.

And so, this is what allows them to help to take contact centers to break away from this traditional cost center model, it just no longer works in this post COVID and post ChatGPT environment anymore, this is a new era.

So, they help them to shift away from that, and to shift into the new era of what he calls earning more with less. So, that's also why they call themselves quote, unquote, Upwork for BPOs in terms of like to describe what they do, because everybody's familiar with Upwork, even if they're not, they're familiar with their virtual assistants. So, they certainly know the autonomy, they know the approach that they will take now to having a person on their staff, etc, it’s the same exact process when a contact center partners with them is just that the reason why they added built for BPO part to it, it’s because they optimized for those two core things that makes them more profitable.

Helping BPO Strategically Position Themselves as a Value Center versus a Call Center

Me: Could you share with our listeners, seeing that you're helping the BPO to strategically position themselves as a value center versus a call center, what are two or three things that you do to help them get to that point?

Romaine stated that to understand that, they first have to mention, what are the core money sucking areas that contact centers usually have to struggle with. So, it's usually three areas, its operations, or what he calls like focusing on pleasing the client, whether it's customer experience, solutions, or investing more in coaching, etc.

And then you have retention is the second one, which is the largest one. In other words, employee replacement costs. And then also hiring, and training, which is also a huge part of the pie. The thing is, the contact center industry hasn't really been innovative at all since the foundation in most of the areas, it's only been innovative in one area, which is operations. Polishing how they deliver that CX experience, but not really focusing on hiring and training, not really focusing much on retention. In other words, if every single Contact Center Executive wants to wake up tomorrow, and see a 10% yearly annual attrition rate, or $100 new employee costs, the industry wouldn't be in the mess that it’s in today.

So, those are the things that they focus on, the two core things that especially when you're scaling remotely, it's just harder to solve.

So, he’ll give you an example of how they do it more strategically. So, let's take hiring. When you add up internal recruiting costs, external recruiting cost, the fact that around 30% of new hires don't make it to production, he even remembers seeing some numbers of around 50% of new hires leaving within 30 days.

He thinks it's best or in other words, he and his team have decided that the best way to really approach hiring would be from like, how you would see like a grocery shop grow. A grocery shop, for example, which is a really good analogy they tend to use would have a variety of different customer segments, whether it’s from like low value to high value customers.

So, some customers would spend $100 for the month, some would spend $600 for the month etc. What if you market to only one spending $600 per month. In other words, the high value wants. That same principle can be applied to HR, that same principle can be applied to talent acquisition, where the high valued ones, at least based on their guidelines are the ones over three years of experience and have already been working with like previous Fortune 500 clients.

So, when you market to them, it requires you understanding their motivations and not trying to go after the motivations of everybody across the board. You cannot fight Goliath using the resources that you don't have, in other words, the ones that are at the top, they have all the resources that they need to build these gyms or health centers or anything that you normally see, like the huge corporate BPOs using to attract a lot of people. But if you do the same thing, you're going to crash and burn as a smaller company. And so, what they’re saying is don't try to mimic them, try to out compete them, by competing differently instead of similarly. So, that's one of the ways.

Artificial Intelligence (AI) Replacing Human Capital

Me: So, you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation about artificial intelligence and ChatGPT, that's a big thing now since November of last year, what are your views on AI replacing human capital? I do recall us having a previous email conversation where you mentioned that they're building computers with human brain cells.

Romaine stated that he doesn't know why he always love talking about this topic. But growth hackers, we tend to see these things like very regularly, whether it's Google Glasses, or even with Crypto, we tend to see these new things and the hype built around them, he thinks ChatGPT is the same thing.

It's a good product, but they have even better marketing. Because they use the fear of people possibly losing their jobs, to drive the exposure to your product. But growth hackers they always try to realign back to reality.

In other words, they ask themselves two things, does it move the needle for our business? And another thing that they ask is this something that can be easily adopted amongst the masses?

They knew that cryptocurrency wouldn't grow radically as other people would put it, because it has a lot of friction just to be a part of it, it’s the same thing with ChatGPT, it doesn't really move the needle when it comes to customer service, because customer service, more has to deal with customer relationships.

These are things that businesses rely on to get more revenue, to get higher customer loyalty, and all of these other things. When you put something that is at the ceiling or near to the ceiling of what it can do in terms of mimicking humans, in control of your customer relationships, it's not going to end well.

And a team of researchers from Johns Hopkins University mentioned this, they didn't call ChatGPT, but they said AI is nearing its ceiling. And it takes he believes the research said like over a million times more energy just for it to perform exactly like the human brain for 40 minutes, which isn't sustainable at all.

So, the only way that they can really get to that next level of AI is to merge human brain cells with artificial intelligence, in other words, they call it organoid intelligence, where they use themselves to mimic brain cells or tissue that can operate like the human brain cells, and then to try to configure that or merge that with AI to enhance automation abilities. So, unless that is done, which is around decades from now, or if not a few years, ChatGPT and any other AI tool that's going to be created will just be good at automating processes, and not so good at automating relationships or being creative as human beings because it just doesn't have that ability, it's more of a process based thing and less of a, “Hey, I know exactly what I'm doing” type of thing, because it's only mimicking, that's all it’s doing.

App, Website or Tool that Romaine Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

When asked about an online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Romaine stated that definitely Webflow for sure, it's better than WordPress, in his opinion. WordPress has a few kinks when it comes to like plugins and SEO, especially with technical SEO, etc. but Webflow is more, you’re like, hey, just handle design and we take care of all of that, all of that backend stuff. So, definitely the Webflow.