Intro: Condragulations
Let Me Run This By You: The David Chase method
Interview: We talk to Blake Hackler about surviving multiple theatre schools on both sides of the equation.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
And Jen Bosworth wrote me this and I'm Gina
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00:00:28
Good morning. Did you quit your hair? No,
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It's just dirty and crumpled up.
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00:00:35
Let's see a shirt. This is my, I always wear this. My RuPaul can dry. Do you know what? I've never seen that shirt on you. Oh really? I've never seen that shirt. It's amazing. Oh yeah. RuPaul is just like, yeah, I I'd love to have, you know, the dinner party question. Who would you have? Let's say five, five people living or dead. Okay. Your dinner party. Well, Frida Kahlo. Yeah, of course. Maya Angelou. Oh yeah. Prince. Although he would be so weird, like he's a good point. Good point. He'd have to prefer, okay. Frida Kahlo, Maya Angelou, prince James Baldwin.
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00:01:17
And I don't know who the fifth one is. You know, you should probably, I guess somebody kind of dumb in there because that's such a smart group that it might be. I would be intimidated at night group. Okay. Not that she's dumb, but I was thinking maybe she's not dumb, but she would, she would definitely add levity is Joan Rivers. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh my God. That would be amazing. Might be the best answer to that question. I have
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00:01:59
So, so I wrote an outline in two days, Monday and Tuesday was outline days. And then I had, and I, and I turned my outline into my mentor, who I love, but who, you know, because she's a mentor triggers me and I've had to work through like yesterday. I'll talk about what I had to work through with her, had nothing to do with her, of course, as we know nothing to do with her. So I wrote the outline in two days. So my outline was 11 pages and she wrote me back and said, you're in good shape, go to script. And I told you this yesterday, but she wrote back. And so she'll put notes on like a format, usually Adobe or Google docs.
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00:02:39
There's one of those, but I didn't see the notes. So I thought I was in such good shape that I could take that I took none of her notes and just went to script. So it was a setback. So then I got, she wrote me and said, I feel like you didn't take any one of my notes. Is there a read? And I thought what notes it was a whole company situation. So then I wrote her and said, of course, Don, of course I would take your notes. I just didn't see them. And so then basically I had to start over and changed my outline and then re go back and do a second draft of the script. So I wrote, I've written two drafts in four days.
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00:03:21
Yep. I mean, congratulations. That is quite a feat. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Thank you, beans. And I, my question to you is, and I talked a little bit about it yesterday, but I want to get into it. I, and it's kind of like what we talk about with the theater school of phew state or blacking out or not. I, I have a hard time in the thing being present in the moment, and I know I'm not alone, but like during the writing, it's almost like I have to access a different part of my brain that has to not be present in order to get the work done because my brain will judge the shit out of it so hard.
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00:04:06
And I was thinking maybe at the theater school, we couldn't take in all the things that were coming at us. So we had to shut off the part of the brain that remembers everything could be. I mean, I, I tend to think about it as, because the theater school was so much about reflecting you back to yourself and if you weren't ready to see that it was too overwhelming to you, you had to shut that part out. But yeah, I think that, I think that old thing about, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, I think that's really true. You have to be all the, all the factors have to conspire to make you in a place to be able to face something a hundred percent.
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00:04:55
Like, I think that mostly we don't face anything at a hundred percent in our lives. That's too overwhelming. Some we're lucky to get like 50% or 60%. So yeah, the judgment monster inside of us takes up a lot of space and you probably have to do some gymnastics to get yourself to put that month. Maybe that you give that monster another task while you're trying to. Right. What I w yes, exactly. And so what I did was I thought, okay, well, I also was on a deadline because I had set myself up for a situation where, you know, I just needed to get it done without getting too much into it.
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00:05:36
So I don't look like a total ass, but I, but it's a good thing. It's all good things. But I, and, and this, we talk about, we've talked about too, how in Hollywood people probably pitch things that they don't have the full draft written. And that makes me feel better because I was like, okay, so the bottom line is I, I pitched something that I didn't have a script for duh, but that's what I'm, that's what I did. So I think the, the thing that, the way that I got it done was because I thought about it and I thought, okay, well, even if people had deadlines, they could choose to not get it done. Right? Like, just because you have a deadline, doesn't mean, you know, but I'm such a rule follower that I'm like, oh, there's a deadline. I'll do it. That helped. But the other thing that helped me was literally the structure of the process, trust the structure of the process of the David Chase method.
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00:06:26
That is the big, big, huge outline. Then you get your outline approved, and then you can take, you can though each of those slug line paragraphs can stand alone, right? So you can move it anywhere in the script. So you literally cut it and paste it. So what that means is nothing is set in stone, which I love. And everything's a work in progress, which I also love as a psychological tactic for like living life work in progress, not perfect. And then it gives me freedom. And so then when I sat down, when I had the outline in the, in the order that I felt for the moment was really good.
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00:07:09
When you sit down to write the actual quote script, all you really doing is shortening your, your outline and adding dialogue. That sounds great, by the way, is that also the Matthew Weiner way? Cause I know he worked for this apprentice. Okay. I'm sure. I'm sure I bet you there. Exactly. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense to me because one of the things I really love about the Sopranos is that it's, it tells the story in perfect order, without it being linear in a way. And the same thing was true of madness. I mean, everything is taking place probably in an episode in one day yet it doesn't have this very predictable.
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00:07:49
Now we're going to switch to the B story. Now we're going to switch to the C story. It could really like go in and out. That's so cool. And I agree with you, not that I've done it, but that, it sounds like that would be take away a lot of the pressure just to say, oh no, no. And actually it's the same thing. If you're writing an essay or term paper for school, like to do it, the work is to do the, yeah, I didn't know this. This is a totally new based on, you know, the last year of my, of my writing life is a totally new thing to me is that the outline is the work. And I was like, I always thought outlines were boring, restrictive. It's so funny. Everything I thought I knew, I, I don't know.
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00:08:30
Or I, I just changed my mind. I thought they were it. Same thing with consistency, the idea of consistency I've I find it. I thought it was boring, restrictive, like a jail stifling, the creative process, if you outline too much. Oh no, no, no, no. What, what I'm doing is setting myself up to not lose my mind when I have to write a script in two days or three days, or that must, that must come from school because the outline was always the first thing you had to turn in to make sure that you didn't wait to do everything at the last minute, which is what I did. So me doing an outline was simply busy work to like, it's not, it wasn't necessarily the thing I was going to write the paper about, but it was the thing I had to turn in first.
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00:09:14
So, and I remember just like going through the rubric, like, you know, part, one of your outline should have this. And I would just basically have the words that the teacher put in the rubric with like a little something added to it. That was for my eyes, you know, that is hilarious and make sense. And also it's just also strikes me as like, I'm I blocked out a lot of school too. Yeah, yeah. Right. Totally. So I don't remember, you know, the one thing I do remember about writing and I wanted to tell you about was that when I was in like fourth or fifth grade, we had to write a poem about, for like some holiday about what it meant to be an American.
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00:09:56
And I wrote a poem and I, and I, and it was about my grandparents and my mom being from another country. And I wrote it. I was so proud of it. And the teacher pulled me aside and accused me of plagiarism. And she accused me of like getting help from an adult. And I got no good because it was good and she could not. And I said, I S I said, I read it to my grandma. I read it to her, but I didn't. And my grandmother didn't really speak English that well. And so she's not going to help me with a poem. I mean, but this lady was like, she did not believe me that, that, that, that I wrote it on my own. And I just, and that really hurt my hurt my feelings.
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00:10:39
I sure I have about four memories of all of the English training I had. The first one was like, maybe in third grade where I was writing something. And I had constructed a sentence that included that, that, you know, and she was obviously just skimming it. Cause she circled the second that, you know, she thought I had just done a mistake. Right. And I remember thinking, oh, she didn't read it. If she read it, she would know that I used it correctly. Third grade, the next time after that was adults, adults, middle school.
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I had one teacher. Remember, I think I told you like a teach for America type person. She was there for three months. She said, you're a good writer. I got all excited. And then she, she left and I, I forgot all about that. The third time was my sophomore year in high school and they were teaching diagramming sentences. And I was looking at this board going like, I will not, no matter how far I go in life, no matter how hard I study this, no matter what I do, I will never understand this diagramming sentences thing. To me, it felt like, and I felt angry. Like you put math into English. Yeah. Math because of how it was this formula of how you had to break things down. And same thing with grammar. I mean, I really blocked it out and it's like probably my biggest deficit as a writer is I, I, I don't, I'm not really, I know intuitively, but I don't, I never S right.
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00:12:14
Cause it was little grammar at all cause oh, right, right. Right. So when I, I totally can. It's interesting because your writing is, so you would never know that like you would never be like, oh, Gina has a grandma. So how did you, it's just all instinct. It's from reading. I think it's just from reading a lot. Like, I, I intuitively understand how to use it, but if you asked me actually, when we were interviewing Dave
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00:13:13
And who knows? If I went back to my sophomore year of high school, I would probably now with my adult eyes, be able to identify something that was happening in my life that made it impossible for me to, cause I'm not like stupid. I just, it was just something about the way, oh, actually I kind of do know what it's about now that I'm thinking of it. My sophomore year, I went to a new high school, which I was really excited to go to because it was where all my friends were in the first year I had gone to a high school that I didn't know anybody because of my test scores. I guess they put me in honors English. And I sat down the first day and I don't really know why this happened, but the teacher looked at me and said, are you supposed to be?
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And I kind of looked around and all the kids were looking at me and I said, I think so. And she's like, I don't think you're supposed to be in this class. I still don't understand why that happened because I was brand new to the school. She didn't know me at all. I there, I don't know. And I, I literally walked out of the class and went to my counselor and said, I'm not supposed to be an honors English. And they were like, oh really? Cause I think, and I'm like, no, I can't, I can't be in that class. And then I went to the regular class and they were talking about diagramming sentences and I told myself, like, I can't possibly understand, oh my gosh, it's not weird. Adults are horrible.
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00:14:35
I mean, really they say things that are horrible to children. And I mean, I think we keep coming back to this, on this, on our podcast, which is like the things we say matter to people and they stick around, they around, you cannot unsave them, especially to a child. You cannot unsafe.
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00:15:07
What could have been an, a cautionary tale all at once, but also a wow. Maybe
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I could have been an exact by this point if I had stuck it out in the first time. Yeah. Rush Amman type thing. You know, this is making me think of, it's making me think of how for so long, all, most majority of women's stories were told by men. So other than their history and cinema and television is full and place is full of these characters. That to the men, I think, seem very fleshed out to the women are like, well, but wait, so your option is, I'm a cool customer. Nothing really ruffles me. I'm, I'm a girl who can hang with the guy, like, which is just, okay, well, so that, that person is literally just a man's wildest dream, right?
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Or I'm, I'm the, she's the frumpy. Yes. Disregarded funny Mrs. Poole type character or she's the Vixen sex pot, you know? So my, I have a fantasy of going back to some of my favorite classic movies and writing the story, writing the story from the perspective of one of these characters who I think was given, you know, just this once over treatment and not treated like a real person. And re-imagining the story. I love it. Yeah. Like what if in Ferris Bueller's day off, which I love that movie, but what if in Ferris Bueller's day off?
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Cause she, that character of the girlfriend was exactly that the coolest, tough as nails, beautiful. Like what of her story was, I am surrounded by, you know, almost adult babies and my job is, and I can't, and I can't find my way to having my own life because I'm so beautiful that the only thing I've been told to do in life is like align myself with some yes, yes. I love it. I mean, I, and I also think that that, that a through line is probably going to be present in all of your work anyway.
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00:17:19
So, you know, as, as you are, because that's where you write from. So that's why your characters are going to be so specific because you noticed in, you know, history of art that like, wait a second, we're not paying attention to the Simone's or whatever her name was of the Ferris Bueller's, you know, like we're yeah, Simone, that was her name or even something like all in the family. You know, my dad didn't know that that show was tongue in cheek. He just really liked the Archie bunker character. You love that show. And I've heard, I've heard Sally Struthers talk about her experience of being on that show.
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00:18:00
And Norman Lear, who everybody hails is this like really progressive guy was really with her. Yeah. Like let CR Rob Reiner do things that he wouldn't let her do. And, and, and all of that. And she said, all of my lens were daddy and, you know, whatever, like it was all just in, she was extremely one dimensional and she feels very grateful for that character, for that story. But like, there was, it was boring. It was a boring character. And that'd be so fun to go back and rewrite all in the family from her perspective or from the mother's perspective. I mean, I have hardly any of that.
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We don't, and, and, and the thing that's really sad also about it to me is that then we miss out on a huge chunks of history and how it affected women. So racism. So no wonder that women are like, you know, I don't know. It's like we don't have any, we didn't have any of the mom in our cheap bunkers on the families or the daughters. Like, what did they think about their, their father being a racist guy? Like what, or would they think about racism in general? Or would they think, you know, it's like we miss out on perspectives that really could have helped us. And that people could have identified with imagine how different, so many people's lives would be just to have that little bit more of a, of a, and this is the thing that people still don't seem to grasp about.
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00:19:30
Like representation. Just, it, it, it it's P I think that people think about representation is like people who are under underrepresented are saying, we want it to have been the stars of everything. And no, it's like, no, we just literally like, if our is supposed to reflect our lives, and then we look at our, and we don't see ourselves in it, we think we're weird. And nobody there's nobody else who feels the way that we feel, nobody else who looks the way that we look. So we feel terrible about ourselves. That's the lack of representation. It's, it's not like we want to be the stars of everything. It's like, just, no, just have some basic understanding of like, yeah.
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00:20:10
Of like where, where we fit in. And also that we exist, you know, like that people exist. And I think, and as being like, for me as a kid who felt like I did not exist in my mother's eyes, so taking it back to psychology, my mother made me feel whatever it just happened. And she, she was troubled in some ways, like, I didn't really exist. Right. So, or shouldn't exist or there was something wrong with my existence. So then it really screwed me for the rest of my life, because I was like, do I exist? Where do I exist? I don't see myself reflected in this woman. I don't, I don't hear myself. So where do I belong? I belong nowhere.
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00:20:49
Great. Now I'm going to turn inward and hate myself and then have to spend my whole adult life, trying to figure out where I fit in trend. And just finding people who seem to feel confident in who they are and clinging onto them and saying like, okay, so what do you want me to do? Who do you want me to be? Which is teachers, teachers, bosses, friends, boyfriends would be boyfriends. They all became sort of who can I be? You know, and that's, and that I will credit the, the may he rest in peace. My, my last ex before miles who took me, took me. It was a weird, terrible relationship because mostly because I didn't know who I was and I was trying to be everything I thought he wanted me to be, which never works.
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00:21:35
And he said, listen, I will never love you. No matter how skinny you are, how beautiful you become or that I think you are, or with you dye your hair, the guy laid it on the line. And I was devastated for like, I don't know, like a couple hours. And then I thought, somehow, praise be Jesus. I thought, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. If this dude is telling me that, no matter what I do, he's not going to love me. Then that means I don't have to try anymore and I can focus. I can do something else. Do you know what I mean? When, when I think about that, yes, I do know what you mean.
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00:22:16
And when now that I'm, I've heard a little bit more about that experience of you. I actually kind of wonder, you know, maybe deep down inside, I know he was attractive or whatever, but maybe you also didn't really love him. You really, you really just needed him to validate you in some way. And so imagine if you could have gone back and known from the beginning that this was not going to be a romantic relationship and just how to measure a friend, which I eventually did have him as your friend. But if it could have been that way from the beginning, it could have been so much more. And we lost so much time because then he passed away.
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00:22:56
So then we, I spent all my time trying to be something that I thought he wanted me to be. And he spent all his time trying to push me that away because I, and, and we, could've just been like the greatest friends and we should have been from the beginning. Yeah. He was attractive, but I didn't love him. You know? How could you, because he didn't love you. And
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00:23:27
Today on the podcast, we're speaking with Blake Hackler. Blake is someone who went to the theater school at DePaul university and then left and then went on to go to two war theater schools. And now runs one. He's funny. He has wonderful insights about what it means to be a teacher and a leader. And he's quite entertaining. So please enjoy our conversation with Blake.
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00:23:54
Oh my gosh. Now that I see your beautiful face, I totally remember you. And you're so young, how dare you? You look so, so young. How dare you show us? It's
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00:24:06
It's all filters. It's all, you know, it's smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. Lots of lighting. Lots of intensity. That's
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00:24:15
Good. That's good. Yeah. So lake Hackler, congratulations. Okay. You survived theater school on so many levels.
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00:24:24
You survived through three times and now I run one. So I must be like, you know, for punishment or deepened to SMS.
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00:24:33
Oh yeah. Well that could be too, but I think it's just amazing, like your, your not just your resume, your, your life experience history is glorious. You are by far one of the most interesting people that we've we've had on no pressure. Yeah.
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00:24:52
You got Tim yet. Yes. Well, thank you very much for that. Thank you. Yeah.
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00:24:55
For people listening, who don't know your resume, you're currently running a department of theater at SMU in Dallas. You did go to the theater school for two years, but then you went on to graduate from Roosevelt university and go to grad school at Yale school of drama. I mean, no big deal, no big deal. You really turn those lemons into lemonade. I have to say I tried. I tried. So tell us, tell us about your journey to ever decide to go to theater school in the first place. Oh yeah.
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00:25:29
Well, you know what, I, so you'll probably hear it in the, in the interview. I am a stutterer and I I've said it since I was three years old and I was in speech therapy, you know, for probably 10 years when I was a kid. And, but, and so it's very strange that a stutter would be drawn to going into a field where they had to speak all the time. Right. But from the first time that I saw a show, like I knew that I wanted to be an actor. And so I was in children's theater when I was growing up. And, you know, I, I was trying to think about how I heard about the theater school.
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00:26:11
And I think it was my best friend who sort of came in in high school and was like, we should go to this school. And I didn't know nothing about it at that point. But then I started to like research it and I found out the Geraldine page had
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00:26:24
Gone there and
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00:26:27
I was upset. You know, I was 16 and obsessed with, you know, a movie star from the fifties. But so I knew that she'd gone there. And then I started to do some research about it and, you know, I had growing up in and I wanted to go to hell like a big place. Right. So that's where I sort of set my sights on. I auditioned for a few more schools. I, and, and I addition for both music and theater. And so, and I was accepted to D to Paul for both things. What's the music
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00:27:05
Like singing or you mean, oh, singing.
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00:27:09
So, but I, I also knew that I would never be able to like, do what I really wanted to do in terms of like classical singing. Do you know? So, yeah. So I auditioned to DePaul, I auditioned a few other places where I auditioned at SUNY purchase B you where they were really mean. They were so mean at that audition.
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00:27:30
Really? What do you mean? Like, just like behind the table, like yes.
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00:27:35
Yeah. Like super stern. Like didn't like, you know, yeah. They were in fact. Yes. And I also addition that, oh, I auditioned at SMU and did not get accepted. Ha wow. You showed them one of the few schools that didn't get accepted that, and now I'm in charge of it. So, so yeah. So I went to Chicago to audition and, and I got in and, you know, came to the big city.
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00:28:05
Is Dallas where you're from in Texas? No,
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00:28:07
I'm from a smaller town up north called Amarillo. Oh yeah. You know? Yes.
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00:28:19
I can see why you wanted to go to college elsewhere. Right.
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00:28:22
She has put that out as soon as I possibly could. But why
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00:28:26
SUNY purchase are they known for a great theater department? Yeah. What, at
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00:28:30
That time, yes. Like they would want of that like top, top, top, you know? And, and you know, I think that they still are kind of up there, although you don't hear as much about them anymore. Yeah. But I think at that time, you know, it was like the theater school, Carnegie Mellon, SUNY purchase be you, what were the other like Julliard? Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Although I, you know, I didn't even like, even like dream like
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00:29:00
Me neither. I was like Julliard that's for no way. Yeah. So what is your understanding about why you didn't get asked back after your second year?
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00:29:16
Oh yeah. So this is kind of a long involved story. So I feel like can do it, do it second. So I sort of knew that I knew that it was a possibility because so in our second year, you know, we do those like seen like showings, right? Like, and everyone comes and watches and it's like a test. Right. So my first one was with Paul home quest and we did this great scene from a play called the Lisbon Traviata. And we did an amazing job if I do say so myself and no, it was, it was, it was really good.
2
00:30:00
Yeah. Dawn was super excited about it. And after that, so I got a lot of like, the faculty really thought it was great. They thought I did an amazing job, all of that. And then Dawn came in like that next week and was like, well, just get ready. Cause you're going to get cut. And I was like, why? I just did an amazing job at this. He's like, I know he's like, but these people have no imagination. And, and he's like, you did a great job, but you did a great job because so many things in your life right now are conspiring to like make, you know, what that scene is about. And he's like, what it shows is that you can do that thing.
2
00:30:42
Like you can do that kind of work, but you don't know how to like get there on a consistent. And, and he, he, he said, they will expect this kind of work every single time now. And if you don't do it, they will think that you, you know yeah. And he was 100%, right? Yeah. Yes. And so my official note, my official warning, it only had one thing on it. It, it said that I had a physical hold between my shoulder blades
1
00:31:19
And oh, you're kidding.
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00:31:21
No, I am not. No, I
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00:31:24
Did not say that on your physical
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00:31:25
Hold between my shoulder blades. Yeah. That I needed to, to work on that. And so I think the, my third, my like my third, like show was with, it was the Norman conquests and it was with Patrice, I think. Yes. Yes. And so I spoke to her about it and I'm like, I need to work on this. And she's like, great. We will, you know, we will do that. But that was it. Like, that was the only thing. And my GPA was like, like a 3.8 or a 3.9. Like I had like super high grades. So the day that I found out was I, they, they had just had their like big faculty powwow.
2
00:32:10
And so Don calls me right after. And he's like, well, I told you, so he's like, you've been cut. And I was like, really? And he was like, yes. He's like, but you can have wide. He was like, it doesn't matter. He he's like, you're an actor. You're going to be totally fine. And I was like, Dawn, what do I do? And he's like, go and he's like, go to work, start auditioning. And then when you're ready to go back to school, you're going to be fine. And you know what I mean? And I think I just chose to believe him. I was like, okay,
1
00:32:45
This is the greatest story. Because one, because your impression of him is like, even like people can't see you, but you're doing this thing with that heat, which is, which is touching is anyway. I can tell you're such a fantastic actor, but also it's spot on. And we were just talking before you came on about mentorship, he really mentored you. Totally,
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00:33:11
Totally. And we stayed friends for years and years after that, you know? I mean, he, he really, he, yeah, he was. So he, he believed so much in me. And I think he just realized, like, he sort of like recognize that I was sort of like an old timey, like, you know, like, I, I like, I love acting, I love talking about it. I love thinking about it. I love watching it. And he did too. Right. And oh yes,
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00:33:42
Yes. Such a, he was such a true fan. And you're just actually making me realize why I liked him so much. Why he was my favorite teacher. He never bought, he never tried to promote this, the veil of theater school. He never tried to. I mean, he never said anything to me as directly, as he said to you, which was completely the right thing to say, it doesn't really matter. It's, you know? Yes. You want a degree. Yes. You hate to not be able to finish something that you started, but at the end of the day, nobody, nobody in an audition asks, you know, for where you went to school. But the idea that people like me in BAAs, as we talked about so much on here were totally bought into the veil.
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00:34:26
The myth of it, the, this supposedly rumored implied greatness was supposed to come out of getting a degree there. So that was kind of actually a big favor. I
2
00:34:37
Think he did. No. Yeah. I mean, I think in, in, in so many ways it was really the best thing that could have happened. Do you know? And so I, I took a year off and I, I did children. I immediately auditioned, I got into a touring children's theater and I did the diary of Anne Frank and Charlotte's web like 200 times that next year. And then I also worked backstage at the Royal George theater and yeah. And, and like just started like, you know, that, and then after a year I was like, okay, I think I can go back to school.
2
00:35:18
And, you know, Roosevelt Roosevelt was a mess. I mean, it was a total mess, but it was a mess at that time in a really good way, because they had a lot of great things to offer. But you, as a student had to be super proactive about like, what do I want to learn? You know, how much am I? Because no one, unlike the theater school, no one was standing over you saying like, you will do these things. It was like, do them or don't. And so a lot of students were like, I am not going to do them, but I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. You know? And so it sort of sort of built up a way of being in the world that would stand me in good stead as an actor, you know, because it's like, no one cares no way, if you do your shit.
2
00:36:07
Right.
1
00:36:08
Which is so, it's so interesting. It's like, w what you both said, it's like never in an audition in my life has someone said, oh, you made it through the theater school. Oh, you were cut. And then it's not that it's the work. It's look at the work, look at the person, look at the work. And it's like, you went to Roosevelt knowing, I think who you were as an actor and wanted to make the most out of it. And it sounds like it really launched. You tell him that.
2
00:36:38
Yeah. I mean, there were great folks there. And, and what it also allowed me to do is that it allowed me to keep working in the city. So like, I, I would do shows at school, but then I also would do shows in the city. And my, my last year at Roosevelt, I did a show called the Irish and how they got that way, which was at the mercury theater. Yeah. Yeah. And it, it was, it wound up being, I think, like a 6, 16, 15 month run. Like I got to like do that, and that was paying my, you know, like my, my food and my rent and that got me my card as well. So that, that sort of like paved the way so that as soon as I graduated, I could go straight to New York and start auditioning, you know, and, and like that wouldn't have happened if, if, if we weren't allowed to work outside of school.
2
00:37:31
Right. Oh, yeah.
1
00:37:33
So then what, how did your experience at Yale compare to those other two programs?
2
00:37:40
Oh, yeah. I mean, so there was at Yale that was like theater school, right. I mean, you know, in terms of the intensity, you know, we were, we were in classes and, or in rehearsal from eight in the morning until 11 at night, sometimes to like one or two at night. And that was six days a week, you know, so yeah. It w it w it was hardcore and much like the theater school, you know, there were, most of the teachers were really amazing, but then, you know, there were classes that you would take and you'd be like, what, what is happening? Like, why, why do I need to know about Balinese masks and nothing, you know, is happening in this space?
2
00:38:28
Yeah.
1
00:38:29
Balinese masks are very cool, but
2
00:38:32
Yeah. Oh yes. Super, super cool. But I'm like, but I'm not sure what I'm learning, and I'm not sure why I'm paying for this and, you know, all of that. Right. But I mean, what, what was amazing about Yale was that, you know, when I was choosing a grad school, like, I, I, it was really, I had been accepted at Yale and at and at, at, at NYU. And so I was, and, you know, NYU was also an amazing school, but NYU is really about the making of an actor. Like it was super focused on the actor. And Yale was really about sort of making a collaborative sort of, you know, because the actors who were really in service to the playwrights, to the directors, and in, in many ways, they're, the actors were sort of low person on the totem pole, you know, I mean, like we were like low down, do you know?
2
00:39:27
And, and there was something appealing about that. And so what was great at Yale is that you really learned how to collaborate. I learned how to work really fast and really tired. So, you know, w and, and, and to not be precious about anything, it's like, I, the, we have, you know, two hours of rehearsal, we got to put this thing up. What, like, what are the necessities, like, what can I go to in my work and my technique that I can just pound, like, you know, like, yes, I want to have weeks to like, think about this and, you know, process it and all of that, but we don't have time, you know, let's get down to it.
2
00:40:11
And so Yale was really great about that. I mean, Yale's sort of worked, and, and in many ways, I think this was the theater school too, you know, with this sort of culture of exhaustion. And, you know, and now that I'm in charge of a theater school and can make sort of some choices about how the, you know, the, the environment is, you know, I go back and forth on this. I mean, it's not healthy to be exhausted all the time, you know, and, and, but there's something to be said for sort of being in that and that being so tired that you stop worrying about what you look like, what people are thinking about, you, like, you know, you just start to let go of those things.
1
00:41:03
That's true. For as much as we complain about the ways in which we could sometimes be treated at the theater school, there is something, there is a kind of resilience that Springs out of having no other choice, but to do it that way, whether you got one hour of sleep or 10 hours of sleep, I sometimes wish there was a better way to instill that.
2
00:41:28
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. You know, but
1
00:41:32
I, I think it from it also is that the, when you say the culture or, you know, of exhaustion, it is, it is obviously bigger than just theater school. It's our country, it's the world, but it's, it does, it does force, it forced me anyway to dig deep. So then when I was out in the world and someone was like, actually, you have to do 17 things at once. I was like, okay, I can do it. I don't love it, but I can do it. If I could just ask you a question, you know, how you were able to look at theater schools for graduate school in a way that I have never heard before, which is that you were looking at the schools as, as how they looked at acting and the actor.
1
00:42:15
I think that's brilliant. I didn't look at anything that you were able to say, okay, Yale is this type of school and NYU is this type of school. How were you able to do that? You know
2
00:42:26
What I think? And like, and this is advice that I give to a lot of my students too. I'm like, you need to, like, after you are done with undergraduate, you need to take a few years off. Like, you need to take time off. You need to go and like, live work, do whatever you want so that you can come so that when you apply to graduate school, you've lived some, and you know what, you're actually like, you know, what you need. Right. And so after, after I graduated from Roosevelt, I moved to New York and I started to work, you know?
2
00:43:09
And, and so I worked in New York for three years and I came up against like, what I was really good at, and then what I was not, you know, and I was really good at the kind of like Donta Donta. Like I'm, you know, I have like lots of energy and like, you know, I can like sell it and all of that, you know, and I was good at sort of being like, I knew who I was, I know what I brought into a room, but I wasn't great at being a collaborator. You know? And I also, I also knew that I had an ego that bordered on the unhealthy sometimes, you know, I mean, part of that is a necessity, right?
2
00:43:54
Like part of it, we have to, as actors, some part of us has to know, okay, I'm fucking good. Like, I am, I'm real good. We, we have to have that. Right. We have to have that sense, but, but then, you know, you also have to be able to have that. And then also be like, when I walk into this room, I am in service, I'm in service to the other actors, I'm in service to the director, I'm in service to the vision that we're all. And I knew that I needed that. Right. And so in New York, for those three years, I'd had, I had been able to, with people who had gone to NYU, to Yale, to, to art, to act, to like all of those places and all of the school look, all of those actors did have a particular kind of feel in the room.
2
00:44:48
Right. And the NYU actors were always so like alive and Sparky and, you know, like they really knew what they were worth and what they were bringing into the room, you know, and the Yale actors were. So again, like, just so sort of practical and kind of like, aha. Yeah, what's next. Cool, sure. We can do that. And I knew that I was more like the, the NYU actor and less like the Yale one. And I was like, okay. So I need more of that in my life. And, and you know, what the thing about Yale is is that it really taught me. And I think it teaches people how to be like a self sustaining hardest.
2
00:45:34
Do you know how you can make work even when you are not, you know, in a show or, you know, and in a film, you know, how you can live a life that is about being an artist, thinking like an artist. And, you know, that's one of my big sort of takeaway from my time there, that's
1
00:45:56
Hugely important a little bit ago, you mentioned preciousness, which is a topic we Rav really haven't talked about on this podcast before. And I'm not sure why we haven't, because it's such a big part of theater school and theater and actors, you know, actors are tend to be, and it's not even like good actors are not precious and bad actors are. It's just this thing that we're contending with is, and I think it's because we feel so we, we feel so much reverence for theater and acting as actors that we can't help, but sort of put that into what we're doing. And of course it becomes boring if that's all you can access as the preciousness of it.
1
00:46:36
And I love the idea that a pedagogy for teaching theater would include very explicitly, like this idea that let's, don't be precious about it. Did you, do you bring that to SMU? Do you kind of imbue your program with that?
2
00:46:51
You know what I think I tried to, and I think that we have a faculty that, that, that really tries to stay on the, you know, listen, there's, there's so much about acting that is, that is magical. Do you know, like when it really happens when it really takes off, when you're in the presence of great work, it's kind of magical, do you know? So I'm, you know, I've I've, and I think that's so important, but from a training standpoint, from like a technical standpoint, like, I, I want us to invest in, okay, what is in your power as an actor? Like, what can you control?
2
00:47:33
And then if you have a firm grasp of those things, then magical things can happen. Do you know? And again, this idea of being, of being in service to, like, I think that, that, that has saved me in my life so many times. Yes. And I always think like, you know, as actors, when we walk into the room, can I be of service to my partner? And if I am of service to my partner and get the more that I can get off of myself and be in service to them, the better my work is,
1
00:48:12
It's so true and the better, and the less afraid I am and the less afraid I am, the more powerful my work has the potential to be. So it's so great to hear you say that because it's the only thing I've had, like recent bouts of stage frame. And I, I, it's the only thing that saves me is, wait a minute, wait a minute. How can I be of service to the words that I'm saying, and my partner, who I'm saying them to, and the playwrighter, whoever it's the only thing. So I'm so grateful that, that you have brought that to, to your young actors. And that it's something that you, that you obviously feel is super important in a training program, because it is, and it sounds like Yale fostered that,
2
00:48:53
You know, and, and, and I think too, like when we are in service to the other, like what, what, what, what, what young actors come to, what they'll start to see in their classmates when that happens is that then we're able to actually see more of the human being that, you know, like they start to reveal more of themselves by thinking less of themselves, you know? And I think that, I think that something that is so important to me and I, you know, I really appreciated about Dawn too, is that Don was really interested, at least in my experience of bringing out each student's personhood, like, what is, you know, what is the thing that you have?
2
00:49:46
What is your mojo? What is your stuff? And it can be odd. It can be eccentric. It can be, you know, but w what do you have, let's bring your full and let's, and let's, let's honor the wonderful weirdness about you. You know? And, and I, I, I think I really try to bring that out in my students too, you know, that there's not one way an actor looks an actor talks and, you know, yeah.
1
00:50:19
That's, and that's, that's representation for you. I mean, the more you can get away from preciousness and to the authenticity of you are, and embracing all the ways in which you, you are different than other people, but with the same common human experience, I think the more powerful and meaningful the work is, but you are also a playwright. And so when did you start writing and how did that become a big part of what you do?
2
00:50:46
Yeah. Do you know what I, I mean, at Roosevelt, I took a playwriting class, and so I started to kind of write then, and, but I didn't think a lot about it, and it really wasn't until Yale and we have the cabaret there. And so that's like a student run theater. And in the cabaret, even if you're an actor you could write or, you know, you, you can do all kinds of things there. And, you know, we were actors. So we were always griping about our playwrights and being like, well, they don't know how to write a play. And, you know, I could do a better job. Meanwhile, the playwrights, my year, where Amy Herzog, TRL Tarell, Alvin McCraney, Sarah Treem.
2
00:51:34
I mean, so we, we knew nothing. We were stupid, you know? And so one of my friends was like, well, if we think that we can do a better job, we should do it. And so I was like, I wonder if I could actually write a play, you know? So I wrote a musical for the cabaret, and then we took that to the New York fringe. And then after that, I, so after I graduated from Yale, I enrolled, I was a part of the, there's a program in New York called the, the BMI layman angle, musical theater workshop. And so it's, it's, it's, it's free, it's two years long and you meet once a week and you learn how to write a musical and your teachers are people like, like, you know, Steven Schwartz and Bobby Lopez and yeah.
2
00:52:29
And I mean, totally free. So I did that. And then I started writing musicals, which was weird. And, and then, and then I just kind of stopped doing anything for a couple of years. I got really sick. And so I just sort of stopped doing anything except, you know, the essential things for a couple of years. And so then when I moved to Dallas, I started writing again. And so then, yeah. And so since then, I've written probably a couple of plays a year.
1
00:53:06
Why is writing musicals? It's weird. I mean,
2
00:53:09
It's just so writing a musical is so hard. It's like the hardest thing I've I've ever done. And, you know, the musical theater world is such a strange and interesting and yeah, I mean, it, it was just a weird time. Like I was, I was out of Yale. I was teaching full time, auditioning some, and then writing musicals that I don't know quite where, which way I'm going to go, you know, and my agents and my manager were like, you need to go this way, but I really, you know, I didn't, after I graduated from Yale, I didn't one, I sort of knew while we were doing showcase and I was taking, you know, like tons of meetings.
2
00:54:04
I was like, oh, I, I can do this, but I'm not built for this. I am not built. Like I don't have the equipment to go to Los Angeles and to really do what I need to do in terms of like, like I can act. And I'm good at that. I am not good at doing all of the other things that are necessary to build a career, you know, like say more about that going in and going into, into all of those rooms.
2
00:54:47
I'm super introverted. Right. So I can do those kinds of those kinds of things, but they cost me a lot. And I was thinking, oh, I, in order to build a career here, I'm going to have to do this all the time. And I'm also going to have to be content with, if, if I'm super lucky working three weeks a year, do you know what I mean? Like having, having like three or four guest spots and like that's a great year and I'm going to have to be okay with that too.
2
00:55:28
And I was like, I just am not. And also like knowing also the kinds of things I would have been cast in. Like I marketed, I marketed, I marketed myself in a really specific way that I knew that, you know, they would respond to and they did. And then I was like, well, Blake, you marketed herself in that way. That's what you're going to get cast. Right. That's not really what you're interested in doing, you know, so I had all these conflicting feelings. And so it was a period of not knowing. I was like, do I do I really just want to teach full time because that's what I really love.
2
00:56:08
Am I going to write, am I going to act on this? Like, what am I going to do? You know, one
1
00:56:13
Of the most sad things in life is when you're really good at something that you don't like doing. I hate that. I ha there's a few things. It's like, no, I want to good at doing this other thing. I don't care about being good at this thing. So I have a very sorry about that noise. I have a very complicated relationship with musicals. When I was a kid, I went to lots of them and I loved what I always love about theater with that, whether it's good or bad is the spectacle of it. The pageantry of it, I'm the person who will get focused on one chorus member and try to find them in every scene and like develop the whole story in my mind about when I would watch the garden variety musicals.
1
00:56:57
I, nah, I can't say that I ever felt moved by them. But then in high school I took a trip to New York and I saw Les Miz. And my story about lame is, is that I sat in the intermission. I couldn't stop crying, just sobbing and sobbing. And I couldn't believe how meaningful and beautiful this story was. So is it that musical theater is for us just to, there's just like a person who loves musical theater and then there's people who aren't that into it, or is it really that it's just so hard to craft a really compelling story. That's both, you know, musical and meaningful.
2
00:57:39
I think it's mostly the latter, right? I think that when a musical is good, it's the best thing ever. Right. And what musicals do better than any other art form is they are a container for the expression of just like overflowing joy. Like, you know, nothing can do joy, like a musical can. And so when that happens, like it lifts us out of our seat, but it's so rarely happens. Right? So that when you see an actor, who's brilliant in musicals, that person is a brilliant actor.
2
00:58:23
Like that's one of the, that's the hardest thing to make happen, you know? And so, so many things have to come together to make a musical really fly. And you know, a lot of times when we see things in New York, they've been, they've, they've been, they've been running for eight years, six years, four years. And the actors for the most part are tired. They're collecting a paycheck. You know, they're doing a job, but they don't have that thing anymore. But occasionally you'll go to see one and, you know, one that's new one that's only been running for a year and everyone in the company still has that feeling.
2
00:59:04
And, and, and when, and when that happens, it's, it's just it's overwhelming.
1
00:59:10
Or, or my thing was musicals is I used to be obsessed with watching high school news hall because the students had that same Bernadette Peters. I made like a tour of, of, of the Chicago land area of watching high school musicals. I saw, I saw which one was it. I saw an into the woods that was so earnest that I was like, I was the only one, but at the end I stood up and was giving a standing ovation. It's the same thing, that thing that like a Bernadette Peters had in, in into the woods that this, that this, you know, 14 year old had it was that, that love of the musical so much that I was like, I believe in you.
1
00:59:56
And it was so magic. So when it happens, it's magic and every other time it's sorta like, and by the way, that's a whole genre on YouTube high school musicals and people make these amazing compilations, like there's one called 29 rock seeds or something like that. And it's like 29 of the same, you know, the same part of the same show. And just, but I a hundred percent agree with you. It's when the actor feels in it. That's the magic of it is undeniable. And when they're not, it doesn't matter how good the whole production is. It's you're, it's, it's not, it's not taking you anywhere.
2
01:00:35
Right. It's just like Shakespeare, right? Like 94% of Shakespeare that I see sucks. It's bad news, but I keep going because every once in a while I'm like, oh my, oh my God, it's so good. You know? Yes. You know? And so when it really hits, there's nothing better. Yeah. I
1
01:00:59
Know in the last year what the answer is, but previous to COVID did you get to, do you get to see a lot of shows in Dallas?
2
01:01:05
You know, I, I don't see as many as I should because most of the time I'm doing the show. Right. So, and then like the last thing I want to do after I've been doing shows is to go see shows, but I will say that during COVID what I've done, which has been just the most amazing thing ever is. And I know it's not the same, but I've streamed tons and tons. And like, like this, these LA, this last week, I was streaming the, the I'm going to say it wrong, the Berlin theater FN. So each year they have a festival where they invite all the best shows of that year to Berlin and they show them over a period of two weeks.
2
01:01:48
So they've been streaming that, so those shows without going, I mean, like, you know, the wildest, weirdest theater ever, you know, so I've been streaming tons and tons and tons of shows.
1
01:02:02
That's cool. And I've been hearing that one of the good things that's coming out of the pandemic theater wise is that people have just been rethinking a bunch of stuff about accessibility. And I think it's Jeremy O. Harris who has this whole vision of like VR and being able to have a VR theater experience that you're sending to classrooms all over the country and world and something innovative and exciting. It's definitely going to be coming out of it.
2
01:02:29
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were just in a meeting, we were in a meeting yesterday talking about this and saying how, you know, even though we're going to go back to, you know, small in-person shows next year, that we're going to keep live stream as, as part of our thing, you know, just for that very reason for accessibility, you know? Yeah.
1
01:02:55
Are you on the, do you watch auditions for people to come into your school?
2
01:03:01
The undergraduate Edison's I do. I do graduate auditions.
1
01:03:07
Yes. Yes. What are you looking for? Can I ask what are you looking for in an actress?
2
01:03:12
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Because I'm thinking about this,
1
01:03:19
I really want to go to grad school. She's already done like three of them, different color. She came in to apply it to your school.
2
01:03:27
Cut off. You're cut off. I look. Okay. So one of the horrible things that we have to go through is that we have to, we have to do a lot of our recruitment at this thing called great and Erna is, is both great because it allows people to audition for tons of schools for one small fee. And it allows tons of schools to see tons of actors. Right. So that's wonderful. The bad thing about it is that every actor gets like three minutes and that's it. And it's like timed and you're on and you're off and it's super quick.
2
01:04:10
So it's the least conducive, the least friendly, the least caring, you know, I mean, there's no other way that they could really do it. Right. But that's, so when I watch auditions there, I concentrate a lot less on how good the actual like work is. And more on, I'm really interested in how they walk on how they say their name, how they transition between the two pieces and how they walk off. Because what I'm really interested in is in, in, in, in this terrible fraught time, these, these three minutes are they, am I able to see some of who they are?
2
01:04:55
Are they able to breathe? Are they able to be unguarded for a moment? Are they able to show what they're feeling right. You know, right then, or are they covered? And so a lot of times I'll call people back who have not done like amazing work, but walked on and said their name. And I can see some of who they are, you know? So that's the first thing. And yeah,
1
01:05:27
I have to say a side note here. That is the exact same. So I worked at PR casting for a while in Chicago. The same thing that I look at and that we looked at was how they opened the door, how they entered the room, how they slated their name, that's where you can tell so much. It's so interesting for theater. It's the same, even though the medium is different for Philadelphia and the way I want to know.
2
01:05:52
Yes. I mean, because it is, can they still be a person? Can they still be who they are even in this really, really tense moment. Do you know? And, and, and then when I talked to them afterwards and like work with them again, I'm not necessarily interested in how good or bad the work is. I'm interested in how flexible they are. And this thing that Ron, Ron van Lew, who taught us at Yale and who was who, who's just amazing, amazing, amazing. Ron would say, I want to actors who bounce, meaning that you can have a really bad day.
2
01:06:37
You can, you know, you can get raked over the coals. You can fall on your face and the next day you show up and you're like, okay, let's go. And I'm really interested in that too. I'm, I'm interested in resilience. And, and I think, I think, I, I think one can tell a little bit of that just by talking to people. Oh, a
1
01:07:06
Hundred percent. Or like, if you, if you give a note and then you ask them to incorporate, you're probably not doing that at auditions very much, but for, for the school that be more happening for shows. But you're also making me think about something in a way I've never thought about it before. Which is that when people are applying to your school, w we can assume that they want to learn how yes. Yes. And so that being equal, then the next thing is, can you teach them, are they a teachable person? Are they a person who's coming to you ready to learn? Or are they a person who's coming to you ready for you to appreciate how great they already are?
1
01:07:47
How terrible they already are. I mean, you know, it could go either way, but you want to be working with somebody who is implicitly and explicitly saying to you, yeah. Te tell me what you got. I'm ready. I'm ready to take it in. So true. And I just realized, yeah, like I've been doing this all wrong, but there is still hope. There is still hope, because I think I'm learning from this. And from talking to people on this podcast, that like, the thing that I think is not going to get me where I want to be is actually the thing that's going to get me where I want to be. So that's fantastic news.
2
01:08:24
It's like an, like everything that, how do I say this? Everything that we put on top of ourselves, because we think it is the thing that they want. I'm going to do it this way, because they want this. I'm going to do it this way, because they want this, oh, I should, you know, like, I should look like this. I should be like this, all of that, just conspires to hide the very thing that will get us hired. Very,
1
01:08:51
Very, that very, that much,
2
01:08:54
You know, because, okay, because not everyone wants to buy this. They don't, I am not for all markets, you know, and because I am five, four, and because I am clearly, you know, I, I am, I am queer and I don't hide it. And because I stutter, maybe my market of what I'm going to be right for, and what I'm going to be hireable for is smaller. Right. But I am these things, this is who I am. And so if you want to buy it, if it, if I'm right for it, I'm really right for it. And anything I do to cover that up is gonna keep me from, you know, keep you from seeing who I am and what I bring into the room.
2
01:09:40
Do you know? So I think that all of the things that people like, I see my students, like all of the things that they want to deemphasize, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Open that up, bring that out, allow that to come out and play in you, you know, easier
1
01:09:56
Said than done, but yeah, that's totally the goal.
2
01:09:59
It's a life's work, you know, it's, it's a life's work. But I mean, I, I think that an acting education is an education in personhood. It's an education in owning who you are as a human being and being okay with that. You're like, this is what I bring to the table and I can always improve if I want to, I can always change if I want to, but this is who I am. And I am proud of that.
1
01:10:28
Now that you're on this side of the, of things, theater school, any things evolved for you in terms of your impressions of your own teachers and administrators in the bed? I,
2
01:10:42
I thought a lot about the faculty at, at the theater school. And you know, what I would say is that for the most part I had, I had a great experience there and I've heard other folks talk about them. So, you know, my first year I had, I had David F Collie. Right. And like a couple of folks I listened, I mean is deeply problematic, deeply problematic. And I fucking loved that class. Do you know, like I loved him. And I like in, in our first year class, I think there were like 14, right around like 14.
2
01:11:26
And the only people that were not cut from my first year section with him were me and Scott. Ellingworth 12 people in my class were 12 of them. And I remember him saying once, so we were in class and it was towards the end. And actually Scott and I talked about this a couple of years ago, David turned to the class at, we had been, we'd been, you know, doing some kind of, you know, space improv, you know, whatever. And David turned to the class and was like, this class is like a runaway train. He's like, 12 of you are in the caboose and two are in the engine.
2
01:12:13
And sometimes you just have to pull the pins. Yes. I think, I think we're in the engine. I'm pretty sure. I think we're in the engine, right? Yeah. Also, also
1
01:12:27
Everybody probably thought they were in the engine, right? Yes.
2
01:12:31
We, there was another time in that class. We had a woman in the class who was an older student and I say older, I mean, she was probably like 25, but I was like, oh, she's a senior citizen. Right. You know, but I remember, and she, you know, she was, she should not have been at school. She should not have been accepted. It wasn't right for her. And I remember David saying to her, at one point she had just finished an improv and he said, I've been trying to teach you for two terms. And you've learned nothing. He said, we have, you know, eight weeks left. He said, let's make a deal.
2
01:13:12
I will pretend to teach you. And you will pretend to learn. I we'll get through it. And she just sort of smiled and nodded, and I don't think he ever spoke to her again in class.
1
01:13:26
Never. Oh, yes, yes.
2
01:13:28
Wow. But having said all of that, I, I did learn a ton in that class. I learned a ton and I, I remember early on, it was like, I had done a thing and he just laid into me. I mean, it was screaming at me and cursing at me and, you know, just tearing me apart. And I went to him after class was over. And I was like, I was like, I totally understand what you were saying. I'm like, but just, you don't have to talk to me like that. Like I get it. And I, you don't like, you can, you don't have to talk to me like that. And he was like, okay. And then he, he didn't, he never screamed at me again like that very like, you know, stone, because he was, you know, but he never attacked me like that again, which, which makes me think like, which makes me question, like, because what was that like, was that thing he did was that sort of rage in his conscious control because certainly some of it was, you know, right.
2
01:14:38
So, but, but I did have other, like, I mean, so I, again, I learned a ton from him, Ruth root Berg who taught me voice there. I mean, she really, in so many ways, she cha she saved my life. I mean, when I went to theater school, I stuttered much more and she pulled me aside and she was like, let's work privately. And so she worked with me all year and my speech and my stuttering was transformed after that year. And she just did that. Like, she just wanted to help me, you know?
1
01:15:14
Yeah. Was that, would you say that the thing that made it better was your ability to relax or what what's, what accounted for?
2
01:15:23
Yeah, I think, you know, stuttering is still in, in so many ways a mystery, but what the Linklater worked really worked on was finding a constant breath flow. And so that as a stutterer, when I am in a constant flow of breath, I don't stutter. And what starts to happen is when I do stutter a little bit, I start to hold my breath and then that just goes to multiply and multiply and multiply. And so what we were really working on with Ruth was just finding a consistent airflow. And I didn't know that at the time, do you know, but that's what was happening. And so I probably went from being 70% fluent to being like 95% fluent.
2
01:16:07
And so, I mean, she, she was, she was huge in my life and yeah. And, you know, Dawn was, was, was amazing. He was, you know, I really only had like, I mean, out of all the teachers I had there, I think I only had one that I thought was just like, and that I still think was just like sucked, you know? Yeah. Like Trudy Kessler sucked. She was terrible. This weekend. Agree. Yeah. She didn't want to be teaching voice. She wanted to be teaching acting. So she was bitter about that. She was so unhelpful. Like I did my first, those, I don't know what, what they were called, but like, you know, your, your year two intro.
2
01:16:51
Yes. I did my first intro with her. And it was the only class at my two years at Yale that I made less than an a N I made, I made a C in that, in that intro. And I, I, you mean at the theater, I was like, they let that lady you. And I'm like, and I remember struggling and like asking for like help. And she just kept telling me that what I was doing was wrong. And it was just like unbelievably unhelpful, unhelpful, negative sour. Yeah. I mean, so still to this day, I'm like, ah, she, she kinda sucked as a teacher and it's okay to say that because she should hear that.
2
01:17:37
Yeah.
1
01:17:37
And you can even have the compassion of like, okay, now that I'm her age, the age that she was, then I can understand the ways in which life can span. And it could have been very simple as like, there were only male acting teachers that she couldn't break in. But that said with wisdom comes the knowledge that you should, you know, that you have, do you have to check that at the door in certain moments in life and teaching students is death. Very, definitely one of those moments.
2
01:18:04
Oh my God. You know, it's such a, like I, and listen, I've made so many mistakes as a teacher and I've done so many things that I look back on and I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I did that. Or I can't believe I said that. Do you know? Because walking into a room is you're so responsible in, in, in, in, in a different way than you are when you're teaching an accounting class or an English class. Right. Because as an acting teacher, I'm working with the human being in front of me. And I gotta be so aware that anything I say, even offhanded, the smallest thing can lodge in someone's mind and mess them up for four years.
1
01:18:47
Right? Yes. We've seen that in the pot or have a lot of it. It has influenced people's one sentence has influenced 40 years Paul
2
01:18:58
Hearing that he didn't have a voice for what, what, and, you know, and she could have meant nothing by that. Right. No blood, he heard it, it lodged in him and it changed him. And, and so there's always such a balance between doing okay, how do I say the thing that needs to be said, what, when is the right time to save this thing? Because some days it's just not the right day to say the thing that needs to be said, you know? And so it's waiting on that day. Yes. And it's knowing that every other student in the class sees that thing and is like, why is it Blake saying X to this?
2
01:19:43
You know, like why?
1
01:19:44
Yeah. You have to, you have to treat tough love, like a semi-automatic weapon. You know, you have to be very aware of the power, the destructive power of it. Well, we all were just about having to wrap up, but I, I wish we could talk for hours and hours. I want you to be my act. You'll be hearing from me and also your, your, he thank you so much. You've been one of the most interesting people
2
01:20:14
We've listened. Thank you. Listen, I, this podcast is so amazing. I'm having my students listen to it, actually. Yeah. Cool. I just think it's so great to like, go back and like, think through that time, because it was such an intense, intense, formative time, and you all are doing such a service to like, let people relive it and kind of a safe, you know, nurturing way and to get to talk about it, you know, because yeah, because it transformed all of us and made all of us who we are in so many ways.
1
01:20:48
Oh, absolutely. So tell people where they can find you.
2
01:20:51
Oh, I'm not a big social media person. I do have a website. Great. tackler.com. Easy enough. I'm on Instagram, but I've never posted because I don't know how to yeah. We can help you through it. If you wanna look for me,
0
01:21:21
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina