Intro: looking your best before death,
Let Me Run This By You: On the subject of grit.
Interview: We talk to P.J. Powers
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pulice. We went to theatre school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
1
00:00:29
We could do both at once. Yeah, exactly. Okay. That's what I need to hold out for. Just when I need a surgery for something that's. Can I just get the guy from plastics in here? Just give me a little, a little, a little lift. So my mom had this condition where she had her eyelids were drooping, you know, and it was like, and so did all my, all her sisters have the same thing. And so she wanted this surgery that was going to do that. You can't see on the podcast, but it's really funny. I looked insane, but the thing was my mom, and this is sad and funny when she was sort of dying of cancer, decided she wanted all these things done. It was so weird. And the doctors were like, like implants.
1
00:01:11
She got implants right before she died. Teeth implants. Oh, oh, whoops. Oh my God. Oh my God. That would be insane. That would be fantastic. Actually. I want to be the best looking on that fuckable Corp. Yeah, exactly. No boobs, but she wanted, she wanted, she got teeth. I mean, teeth is something you kind of need, so it's not, but I was like, mom, are you sure the ones in the back you need to be getting because you can't see them and you're going through chemo and this is insane, but she wanted it. So she had like 15 grand worth of teeth put in or 20 grand. And then she died two months later and I was like, can we get a refund two months?
1
00:01:51
It was rough. It was rough. But anyway, she wanted to meet St. Peter looking her best. And she wanted that eye surgery done. And they were like, listen, ma'am, you're like literally riddled with cancer. Like I not sure putting you under the knife to get your eyelids is, but she, she was in denial and she didn't want to, of course, who wants to really look at, oh yeah, all this is feudal. Cause I'm going to die soon. So she's like, okay. She was like trying to, she was buying the rebel. She was buying time. I know somebody who had that eyelid surgery done. And then they just look like their eyes are wide open. It's a little startling. It's a little startling. What's happening with your band.
1
00:02:32
So they're in Seattle playing some shows and I did not go with them clearly. And they're, they're doing fine. Their new single came out and they are they're okay. And, but meaning I want it to get into like, I'm really into the informational interview, even though I have to drag myself to go and I I'm the one who asked for it. I'm so dumb. But I went and she was, she was lovely. And gave me the ropes of like, this is what managers actually do. So I'm just educating myself because you know, I'm not going to grad school for music management. I'm not going to do that. And she was lovely. She's an amazing person.
1
00:03:13
And she's a friend of my cousins and she agreed to meet with me and yeah, nothing. I'm just in, I'm still, I guess all this to say, I'm still in the information gathering stage and I'm just seeing what's out there in the world. Jobs. People do like studs, Terkel. I'm just conducting your own research. Let Me Run This By
1
00:04:02
And, and it's kind of part of bootstraps culture and American blah, blah, blah. But I just looked up the definition to remind myself and it means courage and resolve strength of character. I feel like people when they talk about grit often mean, Hm, just muscling through something without, without acknowledging the complexity of it in any way, as opposed to what it really is, which is encourage has a lot to do with it. Oh, I find there's a real lack of courage.
1
00:04:45
I agree. I think that the, the epitome of grit to me is when I'm midway or three quarters of the way up the hill when I'm hiking. And I literally have to, while I'm gritting my teeth and I literally have to pull up from the depths of me, I do anything I can to hold on to just say, keep going up the hill because I want to turn around, like, everything in me wants to turn around. And the thing that keeps me going is encouragement from myself and others, like Gisa, my friend, even though I want to strangle her when she's doing it and a deep well of resolve that, I don't know where it comes from.
1
00:05:33
Like it is, it is, it is like when people talk about marathon running and they're like, I don't know that something kicks in and I, and I have this, it's this courage to just keep going. It is grit is excruciating. It is not like, you know, oh, just give it a try. It is like, it sounds, and I've obviously never, I mean, I've never given birth. So, but like that is to me when it sounds like when you're three quarters of the way pushing a baby out and you just want to die, but you, but you keep going because you have, that's where grit to me that's comes into play. You know, it's a more physiological thing that I think people realize, yes, I agree with you.
1
00:06:16
And also I think it is not so much taught, like explicitly taught behavior as it is people pick it up when other people are modeling it for them. Mostly I was talking to somebody recently who said, you know, I'm just not a soldier. Like this is one of my problems in life is I'm not, I'm not a soldier. And I thought about it and I thought, okay, well I am a soldier. I mean, I will just, I will keep going on, which is not. And it's not always great. No, but it just, that is, it doesn't occur to me a lot of the time to not do something. And I don't really question in the way that I feel like my kids, for example, question, why do I have to do that?
1
00:06:58
Or, you know, I'm back just as a side note, I recently started saying like, you know what, I don't have to give you a reason because I've gotten stuck in this thing of like rationalizing every decision because they, they I've shaped that behavior. And then they say, why, why, why do I have to do that? So if you're, if people in your life don't model grit for you, they don't model sticking things through to the end, having a career, adopting a courageous attitude and then strength of character. I don't know. I D I don't see a ton of it. I feel like represented just in our culture. And, but, or when it is, it's talked about in this like American military, it's a real sort of white dude, John Wayne kind of strengthened character.
1
00:07:52
Yes. A hundred percent. That's what it is. It's the John Wayne. It's the, it's the clinics. What thing? And sure. I mean, those people are, and we're probably gritty, but that's, and maybe also, because it often gets portrayed as like a male thing, the cowboy thing. And I really think that we all could benefit from having a little bit more in the way of the, especially the courage and the strength of character agreed a hundred percent. And it's interesting when I think of grit, I think of like sandpaper, you know? And so it, it, it can, it can create it. It shapes you, right?
1
00:08:33
So grit being happy, being gritty and being, and B having strength of character really shapes us. And I agree that we don't see models of it other than white dudes, you know, going to war, you know, like that, that doesn't, that's not a model I had that model of my mom, but it was, it, it was so she had hers turned into workaholism and this idea of the resentment projects whose that been projects. And, and, and I was going to say resentment projects. I was gonna say, it turned into like, yeah. Bootstrap mentality and an immigrant, and you have to do everything yourself.
1
00:09:13
So I think, again, you know, for me, it comes down to balance. It's like, I don't know, like we were talking about canceling plans, but like, I don't, I used to be really bad at knowing, like, what is an actual good reason to not go to work because I'd be sick and I'd go to work or I'd be sick and I'd whatever. And then the other side of me, it was like, well, I'm just going to cancel it. I'm just going to cancel. But it's balance of like, no, no, no, no. This is actually grit means staying home right now. Sure, sure. Cause sometimes that is what it means. I never learned when, like when, so I'm figuring that out, like checking in. Okay. She is the strength of character thing to do here.
1
00:09:53
Show up for this thing. I don't want to show up, I E the doctor to get my blood pressure checked and my weight checked or that's the route that is, or is the right thing to do, you know, this isn't this, you know, if it's something really not in, not feeling right. And it's not because of fear that I'm not going, or like, you know, or what's the self-care thing to do. And I, and I, I struggle with knowing what the self-care thing to do is, but I'm getting better at it. I'm getting better at it at 45. I'm getting better at saying no, no, no. The true grit thing here to do is actually stay home. But it's real hard. It's real tricky because you have people telling you, you sh you, you know, there's messages, like you said, like the do culture, the, the doing bootstrap culture will tell you just true grit is going to work sick.
1
00:10:38
Right, right, right. Yeah. I, yeah. I, yeah. And I think for my own personal sense of grit, if I asked, I think the, the money for me is more in like figuring out the thing that I'm not being courageous about because that's something, you know, I, I encountered that with conflict a lot. Like, I mean, I, I'm in a lot of positions in life that forced me to embrace conflict. And I guess that's been a good thing, but my default setting is still to, you know, not wanting to avoid conflict, want to kind of shrink into the background. And oftentimes that's because of, I mean, one of the main things that the black lives matter movement has exposed for me personally, is my lack of courage when it has come to participating in white supremacist culture, which usually for me ends up being like, not saying anything, when things are said that I know are wrong, that's pretty much the way that I feel like it's happened.
1
00:11:39
So, yeah. And I, you know, it was interesting. I think that that is, so this is so weird. It goes back to the theater school one time Peyton and I were visiting a theater school, friends' parents, and they started say really anti Latinex stuff, anti, and no one said anything. And, and then Peyton, and I can say his name. Cause it's the truth. Peyton said to me, why didn't you say anything as if it was my job only, he's like, that's your culture? Why don't you speak up? And I just felt ashamed, but now I'm thinking, why didn't you say anything you add? Oh, absolutely. Cause that's another part of the white supremacist culture is like FA always ferreting out the emotional labor to the person who's being oppressed.
1
00:12:25
It's so weird now I'm like, now I want to like have him on the podcast just to confront him about this, but I don't know how that would go. But, but, but it, I, it is exposed to me too. Like I do this, I do the same thing. So even in situations where I'm not the one being targeted, I sh I need to say things and you know what? Yeah, I totally get by what you're saying. I grit. True grit. What is true grit. Yeah. Well, what can we just follow up? What was your process like? We'd last time we talked, I just wanted to follow up on the, the, the, you had received an email and you worked with yourself and you responded to that email.
1
00:13:06
Yeah. So I, yes, I, and it, the result was that the person didn't respond to me after that, which I think is actually a good sign because there wasn't anything to say, like to refute what I was saying. I kind of, you know, sometimes you can really dead an issue by just being like, very matter of fact and unemotional, that's sort of a key for me. It's like, if I try to go back over something and take the emotion, you know, what is like my intention and in my emotion. And I just try to make it like, cause what I ended up saying to this person is I am setting a boundary with you. You don't like the boundary I am setting that's okay. I'm still going to set the boundary because it's not only you.
1
00:13:47
I have to think of it's it's part of a bigger picture. Oh, that's some good stuff right there. That's some true grit. I think that's some true grit. You know, one of the best DBT techniques is called broken record. And it's just exactly what it sounds like when you set a boundary with somebody and then they say, blah, blah, blah, blah. You just say, I am setting a boundary with you. I am setting a boundary with you. This is still an example of a boundary I'm setting. Yes. I see you. Don't like the boundary I'm setting. I mean, broken record because sometimes people don't hear it until you've said it 5,000. That is fantastic. You know what I need to do? Say it to myself, set the boundary like this. I want to go to McDonald's and I haven't, but I say it frequently.
1
00:14:29
And then I have to say, I'm setting a boundary with yourself. We're not going. I know you, you think you want to go, I hear that. You want to go, we're not going. So then that's, that's something I'm going to try to do with myself. Broken record, broken record. Yeah. Like it's just, it's it. This is it. There's not, you're not, no matter because I feel like where those things fall apart is in the re when people and I can, the example I gave with my kids, like when we're talking through the reason of it, it's like, no, no, no, you don't. We don't really even have to go there. It's just this, this is just the boundary. That's just, it. That's all you need to know about it. Oh, that's so great. That is so great. I'm going to try it with myself first and see how it goes.
1
00:15:10
And then I'm going to try it with others and see how that goes. I don't really have to. It's interesting. I think I haven't been in a situation, especially pandemic wise and since I don't have like a job job where I've had to practice that that much, but I'm sure they're coming. I'm sure because it's life that's right. It's coming. And so may you too, dear listeners know the power. I don't have to give you a reason
0
00:15:40
Today on the podcast from talking with PJ powers, PJ was an acting major at DePaul university at the theater school. He graduated and he went on to co-found timeline theater company in 1997, which is an amazing theater company in Chicago. And he became the artistic director there in 1999, where he still is the artistic director, quite an amazing feat. He's quite amazing guy. Let's enjoy our conversation with PJ powers, power what's happening. How are you guys doing
1
00:16:23
Nice to see you? I just realized we will look like IRA glass. You know, it's
3
00:16:28
Funny. I was, I was asked at a Starbucks once. If I was IRA glass, when I was like the, the, the barista was like, are you here for glass? I said, yes, I am.
1
00:16:39
You're actually, I would say you're a better looking. Yeah.
3
00:16:43
Well that's very generous. Thank you.
1
00:16:46
Hi, PJ powers. Congratulations. You survived. I was just looking at your resume and God damn. Did you theater school? Like you have done a lot since you graduated, including co-founding a theater company receiving all the types of awards, Geoff citations here, and they're coming out the wazoo. I mean, my God, have you always been this
3
00:17:13
Well, first of all, thank you. That's that's overly generous. I don't, I don't know if I've always been this driven. I mean, if you had told me any single day during my four years at the theater school, Hey dude, someday you'll start a theater company and then there'll be an artistic director. I w I mean, I would have laughed you out of the room. It was, it was so not even in the realm of, of ideas that, that I had. So I don't know. I mean, I, I, I like to say I sort of lucked into my dream job that I never knew was my dream job. And, and, and it happened kind of unexpectedly a couple years after getting out of school.
1
00:17:58
Yeah. So when you, when you got together with that group of people, which is Nick bowling and who else? Juliette Hart, D w were you just going to do the one play or D were you trying to start a theater? Well,
3
00:18:11
Nick was trying to start a theater company. I most definitely was not. I was, I was the naysayer at, at first. So he was, he was the grand visionary.
1
00:18:24
The story about meeting in the basement or someone's garden, apartment of Susan,
4
00:18:29
Susan
3
00:18:31
Basements. Why, why were we in basement? But it was
4
00:18:37
Like, Hey, I, I got this room for free.
1
00:18:40
Oh, and it was Lily or somebody who told him the world doesn't need that.
4
00:18:44
Right. That's true. Yeah. Lily was like,
3
00:18:46
I want no part of this dude. So she, like, she like planted a little seed in Nick's head of, you know, you should actually have a mission before you start a theater company. And Nick was like, oh right, let me work on that. But he, he pulled us together. This was in spring of, of 1997. So yeah, just actually two weeks ago today we celebrated our 24th birthday
4
00:19:13
Nuts,
3
00:19:14
Nuts. So he, he pulled us together late at night. I remember I, I went to see a show by like ushered for a show at Steppenwolf that night. And then I was like, oh, I got to go to some like late night meeting with bowling. I don't know what this is about and showed up late at night. And he like laid out this grand vision of, I think we should start a theater company. And, and I was the one who kind of peed in the Punchbowl that night, because he also said, and I think we should focus on exploring history. That's, that's what our theater companies should be. And I said, that sounds kinda kind of awful.
3
00:19:56
I don't know that I ever want to attend that theater, let alone run it. So, so I, I was kind of the stick in the mud, but wiser heads prevailed that night. And, and, and we started to talk about like, well, what does it mean to have a theater company that explores history? Like, is there a way that, that isn't lame and dusty? And, and so we, we had a great conversation that night. And at the end of the night, we all like had some assignments, some to do. And, you know, remember this is 1997. Like I think maybe I had just gotten an email address. Me, maybe so like to schedule a meeting was a thing.
3
00:20:42
So my, my assignment was schedule our second meeting a couple of weeks went by, I was not scheduling any meetings because I was, you know, I was two years out of school. I was on a path to be an actor, which is kind of why you go to a BFA acting conservatory. And I was starting to get some work. You know, I was not blazing a path to start them by any means, but I was, you know, working at some of the off loop theaters that I had really admired. And I thought, all right, I need to stay on this path. At the same time I was working at theaters that I really admired. And then once I got behind the curtain, I was like, this place is a hot mess.
3
00:21:25
Like, what is who's in charge here? What, what are these decisions being the art decisions being made. So I was kind of, you know, internally grappling with that, but I did not think, well, all right, buddy, then you do a better, so two weeks. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.
1
00:21:41
Go. Oh, no. I was just going to ask, I just wanted to know, like that initial meeting that you all had, what made you not say no? What made you say I'll keep going with this?
3
00:21:53
I don't know if you've met Nick bowling, but he doesn't take no as an answer. That's true. Good point.
4
00:22:00
I have been in a room with, I mean, I've
3
00:22:03
Been working with this guy now for God, 27 years, 27 years. I can't, I can't can't quit you. And so, you know, he was persuasive and, and I, I, I loved this group of people and I, and I remembered like, oh yeah, we, we did something together at school two years ago and it was kind of magical. And I'm, I'm missing that collaboration in my solo work.
1
00:22:32
I, I feel, I do have to push back on this idea that you were always driven though, because I mean like my recollection of you was Mr. Go-go go. Like, I, I, I, not Mr. Laid back like smoke, do it. Let's see what happens, where we just let the night on for, you always seem like, no, you just always seem like a person who had a plan of action. And like, I'm doing this, and then I'm doing this. And like, you're not wasting any time. So maybe, maybe it didn't feel to you. Like you were super ambitious. Well, you weren't ambitious to start a theater company before you did, but you, you seem like you have always been highly
3
00:23:10
Mobile. That's very kind. I, you know, I do have one strange memory and I've, I've, I've heard other people on this podcast talk about like those brutal questions that GMO would like, you know, pose, pose to us. Like just before graduation, like, you know, the big life questions, like, all right, what do you actually want to do now? Like you, you've got, you've got your degree, what you're going to do. And I remember being like, just gobsmacked by those questions, like, I don't know, what does success look like? But I have this faint memory that one of the questions was, you know what, what's something that you think nobody knows or that you don't know about yours.
3
00:23:51
I said something like that, you know, what's, what's some characteristic of yours that, that most people don't know. And I remember answering it, I think I could be a leader of something, but I've never had the chance. And I, you know, in my, my infinite 21 year old wisdom, like there, there was some little part of me that thought like, okay, I think I can, I think I want to do something more than what I'm doing. But prior
1
00:24:17
To all of this, you were set to be an actor. Did you do acting? And yeah.
3
00:24:21
Yeah. I S I started when I was like five, so I did it. I did it a lot as, as a kid, I started doing some like professional children's theater as, as a teenager. So I, yeah, I was doing a ton, ironically though, I had no thought of going to a conservatory. I came to Chicago to tour Loyola, where my sister had gone to school. And, and one of my teachers through, I did a summer theater program called cherubs at, at Northwestern, you know, it's for it's for kids going into their senior year of high school. And one of the teachers at cherubs said, you should look at DePaul. I think that's a program that, and I was like, I'm not going to a conservatory.
3
00:25:02
I thought like, I need a liberal arts degree, even though I'd been acting. So I came to look at Loyola, it sort of didn't flip my skirt. And then I was like, all right, I'll begrudgingly, go look at DePaul and, and walked out of that building like two hours later. And my dad turned to me and he said, this is where I'm going to school. Right. And I said, yep. And I did. And I auditioned, like in December, I got in and it was like done,
1
00:25:25
Wait, I never did a tour. Did you do a tour specifically? Just of the theater? So it was a whole campus.
3
00:25:32
It was a bit of an ordeal. Like we had an appointment to meet with, I guess, Melissa, Melissa Meltzer. Who's director of admissions at the time. So we just like showed up and were like standing, you know, inside the entryway Kenmore. And like, nobody is there and no one's greeting us. And we're kind of like, did we screw something up? And so there was a lot of like weird looks between people. And finally someone was like, oh yeah, well, this is not here today. I think she's out sick. Let me see if we can get someone else to talk to you. So they went and found John Bridges. So me course, my parents like sat in Bridge's office for two hours.
3
00:26:15
And John Bridges sold me on the theater school. Like,
1
00:26:21
Wow, wait, the whole time you were just sitting in this office and that's what made you leave and say, I'm going to this theater school in John. I see you in John. Not telling us what's the, yeah.
4
00:26:33
That's how he works. The hidden hand. I don't even
3
00:26:36
Know if he ever knew that, but when, when he was finally retiring, I like wrote him a letter saying like, you're kind as the reason that my life ended up the way my life ended up. So
1
00:26:46
It was truly that meeting that's sitting in there that, that changed you from, I don't want to go to conservatory to,
3
00:26:51
Yeah. There was something about that, that dumpy old building on Kenmore that just seemed
4
00:26:57
Kind of exotic and attractive.
3
00:26:59
And I was like, I think these are my people. I, I don't need like fancy glitzy buildings and programs. And I was like, there's something that just feels authentic about this place. And I, and I loved Chicago. I grew up just outside Detroit. So I'm, you know, I'm Midwestern boy. So it, it just felt, it felt right. And what's funny is, so that, that weird experience I had standing in the lobby of like, oh, there's no one actually here for me happened again. When I came back to audition. Cause like I flew into town by myself. I'm like, thanks, mom and dad, I just, just, you know, good luck, get on a plane and, and took a cab to the theater school, like on a Friday. And the audition was Saturday morning and they were supposed to have a student host me for the night.
3
00:27:47
Oh yeah, yeah. Or, or in their apartment or something. And so it was December. So, you know, people were on break. So there's not many people around the building. So again, I showed up and they're like, Ooh, yeah, we dropped the ball. There's no one to host
4
00:28:01
80 years old. I'm
3
00:28:02
In Chicago. And I'm like, okay, where do I stay? Pull
1
00:28:06
Up the mat and room for three.
4
00:28:09
They just started like walking around
3
00:28:11
The lounge there. And they're like, Hey, I willing to have this dude crash out. And still Jess, Jessica something, I'm forgetting her last name.
1
00:28:25
Yeah. Yeah. She was like, yeah, I'll take you. So she, she took me to dinner at salt and
4
00:28:31
Pepper and I like crashed on her couch
3
00:28:34
Audition the next day. Okay. Okay.
1
00:28:35
Thank you, Jess. I see you too. You're you're pointing out all these fabulous people who have already been on our podcast
4
00:28:42
Previous episodes.
1
00:28:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jess was on it. Okay. So did you came from Michigan? Did you apply to any other
3
00:28:50
Schools? Huh? I think I still did apply to Loyola, but, but no, I was like laser-focused. I mean, I suppose the only place I auditions, the only conservatory I considered, I think I had like maybe a fallback, small liberal arts school or something, but I wasn't ever, but
1
00:29:07
Did somebody show up to watch you audition? Yeah. There, there
3
00:29:11
Were people there. I have, I have like close to no memory of that day. I remember sitting at salt and pepper the night before, just like staring out the window at the El tracks on Lincoln. And just thinking this place feels so exotic, but I have no memory of the actual auditions.
1
00:29:33
You don't know what you didn't do you have no memory of your monologues? Zilch, Zippo. I, I remember the like atmosphere or the environment that the people, but I don't remember what I did
3
00:29:47
And the large movement room. That's why I remember. And I was like, this room smells like wet socks.
1
00:29:57
And you didn't know that that was just the bottom. You didn't know where that room could go.
3
00:30:02
No. The type of inappropriate touching that would ensue for the next four years in that room, the sort of things that today would just never, ever, ever be allowed.
1
00:30:14
That was going to be my next question. I mean, did you find the whole thing, like much more touchy, feely, just odd than you expected it to be?
3
00:30:28
I guess not because I had done the cherub program, which was all sorts of touchy, feely, you know, it, it kind of, it's an intense, like five weeks sort of mini conservatory where, you know, from 9:00 AM, till 10:00 PM, you're doing classes and then you're rehearsing at night. I mean, it, it really is sort of a mini version, which I think is why one of my teachers there said, Hey, you seem into this, I know a program, you know, cross down that, that does this. So, and I think because I had done so much theater in, in Detroit, it, it felt, it felt natural. However, the big difference was once I got to DePaul, I was like, oh, I feel like I also found my people.
3
00:31:11
Like, I, I was used to sort of the, the work, but never felt like I had the right people surrounding me. But at DePaul, I don't know. I, I, I found some of them in 27 years still. You're still with them. I'm still attached to the hip to some of them.
1
00:31:29
So tell us about the life of an artistic director. I mean, I don't know. I think people who are, who have been part of starting theater companies know about it, but I don't think the greater population knows about the work that goes into being an artistic director. So tell us about your job there.
3
00:31:46
It's totally glamorous.
1
00:31:49
You make tons of money. Everyone loves me. No one questions,
4
00:31:55
You know, sit around swirling
3
00:31:57
Bourbon in my ass, got all day, you know, throwing scripts against the wall that I think are, are no, no, no, well, I, I guess I'll start by saying, and it took me a long time to figure this out. Cause I, I then, so 1997 we tried we'd we'd started the theater company, but then I didn't become artistic director until 99 after Nick had a job opportunity that he couldn't refuse. And so I sort of stepped into the role, not knowing what it was. And so, you know, I was 26 years old, you know, we had, we had a budget of like, you know, 12.
3
00:32:41
And so it took me a while to figure out not only what is the job of the artistic director, but more importantly, what, what is my version of being an artistic director? And I say that because I have an acting background, I'm not a director still to this day. I've never directed a play, which most, most artistic directors like that's their thing. And, and most of their companies are sort of defined by their directing imprint if you will. So I've always come at the job more as a producer from an acting background. So it, it took me a while to, to be cool with that in my own skin of, and Martha LaVey at Steppenwolf was a big influence on me because she, similarly, you know, wasn't a director, she was an actor in a, in a, in a producer and, and a mentor to me and in many, many ways.
3
00:33:42
But to, to your question, like w what's what's a day in the life, like, I guess I'll talk pre pandemic is day in the life now is just not. So what I, what I love about the job while why I do say that it's my dream job that I didn't know would be my dream job is that no two days are the same and no two hours in a day are the same. So, you know, it could be working on casting one minute and then I'm working on a fundraiser the next minute. And then I'm collaborating on some marketing thing or having to deal with some crappy HR problem or, you know, I'm, I'm out of my league on a daily basis in some form or fashion.
3
00:34:27
And that's, what's exciting because each day I'm like, wow, never been faced with this. All right. Got to figure it out. And then a week later I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, I figured that out. What's, what's, what's the next hurdle. So the things that were totally daunting 10 years ago now are like, oh, if only I can knock that out. So I love it because I'm just constantly learning.
1
00:34:53
Do you think that the, the longevity of the theater company has something to do with that ability? The way that it sounds like you solve problems? Like you're not, or I guess the question is how have you lasted so long? I mean, that's my first question. I know a lot of people are like 25, usually it's one year. And so what w why, why have you lasted so long as a company and why have you lasted so long as an artistic director? Do you think
3
00:35:21
Those are good questions? I, I think a couple of our secrets to endurance, if not success, for starters, we've always been a really collaborative body and from the outset, and this is something that, that Nick laid out on April 9th, 1997, he was like, let's, let's do something different from the norm in Chicago, which is like creating ensemble based companies. And, you know, Steppenwolf is obviously sort of like the, the Uber model of that of let's have a group of artists and do plays that feature these, these artists, which is great.
3
00:36:03
And they've got some pretty great artists. Nick said, let's do something different. Let's create like an artistic board. If you will. Let's let's have our company members be a collaborative body to set the artistic course and let's have a mission be our, our roadmap. So what that means more specifically, still to this day, me as artistic director, I'm not choosing the plays. We produce it. It is a democratic process. There are 17 company members now, and it's my job to lead us in discussion and decision-making, but I promise you there've been countless projects that I'm super excited about that the others just aren't on board with you.
3
00:36:47
You're not going to see those on our stage. So having, having that system of checks and balances, and we don't pick plays just to feature each, each other. And sometimes that's really hard and painful, but you know, we don't get in a room and say like, all right, here's a project for you. And here's a project for you. We say, you know, what are the stories we want to tell? How are we looking? I love that. That's, that's
1
00:37:11
It that's the special sauce. Cause I feel like the reason as bad as the saying like that most theater companies go fold quickly is because it's all these vanity projects that people are like, well, now I finally have my thing. I can, but that doesn't mean other people are going to want them watch it.
3
00:37:27
And I love it. You call it a vanity project. Cause cause pre starting timeline, Nick and I actually produced a vanity project in, in 1996. So a year after he got out of school, he and I just wanted to work together again. So we like self produced a play play called the subject was roses that had no reason to be done other than I wanted to play this part. And Nick wanted to direct and guess what? Nobody came and nobody cared. And so yeah, we, we learned like, okay, this didn't really have a purpose other than we think, we think the world needs to see her.
3
00:38:06
Right. Yeah. And I it's so tempting
1
00:38:08
To do that. It's so tempting to do that because I feel like in this, in this industry that people are told you can't do this, I'm going to choose what you do. So then when you have the chance, you're like, no, no, no. Now I'm going to show them the problem with that is it doesn't like, like, and Gina's is always talking about this is when you don't invite other people into the process. It becomes such an insular thing. And nobody really cares except the two people involved it's it's,
3
00:38:35
It's absolutely true. And, and that idea is ultimately what made me relent and say, say yes to, to Nick in 1997. So, so yeah, so we, we had our first meeting. I was supposed to schedule the second meeting. I didn't a couple of weeks went by Nick and I went to see a show together. And we were sitting at Moody's pub in, in Edgewater and, and he finally said, Hey, you ever going to schedule that meeting? And I was like, okay, here it comes to the breakup conversation. And I said, you know, I, I just don't think this is for me. I I'm so inspired by your vision, but I, I just don't, I don't see it.
3
00:39:19
And he, he just convinced me that night. And, and, and he was talking in these big lofty terms that I can't believe my 24 year old self cared about. But, you know, he said most artists by nature, you know, since we're guns for hire, have to think just about our own solo career. He said, what if we built a company and, and it became our legacy and, and making something that out lived us, became the thing that really drove us and became our, our, our, our purpose.
3
00:40:02
And I don't know why that sounded appealing, but it did. And I thought, okay, I can get on board with that. And I think it sounded appealing because I was already feeling frustrated in the life of an actor in, you know, I am waiting for someone to call me and I, I'm the type of person and Gina, maybe, maybe you saw this in me before I did. I, I'm the type of person who just needs to get up every day and have some goals and have a to-do list. And I'm, I'm truly flattered that you sensed that about me. Well, before I did, and the life of the actor is, you know, yes, there are things you can be doing every day to advance your career and hone your skills.
3
00:40:47
But at the end of the day, if your phone rings, you, you have, you have the ability to exercise that if the phone doesn't, you don't. And so I thought I want to be more in control of what I'm doing.
1
00:41:02
Well, it also sounds, you know, the life of an actor or a solo, whatever is so lonely. And it sounds like what you guys created was a real community. And, and that is appealing because we all want community. And this idea of leaving a legacy that has nothing to that is a community legacy versus a one-person stardom legacy is like a different thing. It feels to me from the outside, looking in, it just seems like comforting and being a solo actor is so lonely and waiting. And this was like, you had a family, that's the word? It's like a family. Yeah,
3
00:41:43
No, that's, that's a beautiful way to put it. And I mean, especially this past year where we are all are feeling so isolated and so like, okay, I'll shuffle down the hall at home, again, check my email. But, but I feel fortunate that I I've had plenty to do this past year of like, okay, how do we keep this organization alive? How do, how do we live to fight another day post pandemic? When so many of my friends who, who are just freelance artists, haven't known what their daily to do is, and it's just heartbreaking because the depth of talent and skill that doesn't have an outlet, you know, many people have, have hustled and created new outlets for themselves.
3
00:42:37
But, but I feel fortunate. I mean, believe me, there were days that I wish there was less on, on our plate to survive a pandemic, but I feel fortunate that I've had stuff to keep pushing.
1
00:42:53
So I know that there's at least a couple of books out there about, you know, starting a theater company, how to start a theater company. But I just had this vision that you're going to write a book about starting a theater company and, and using as the premise of the book, because it's been the premise of, of your company to think almost exclusively, at least at the beginning about the message or the intention of what you're trying to do, because that is the thing that's universal and that's the thing that's sustainable. And long-lasting, and the thing that's not sustainable that we all get caught up in is the thing that you just mentioned. Like everybody has to see my, everybody is going to be so amazed by my talent.
1
00:43:36
Okay. But so then the other thing that I'm thinking of is how, in addition to the pandemic, the entire theater world changed in this last year. So we see you white American theater movement, and you don't have to answer this question or we can cut it out later if you don't like it like it. But what is, I mean, how are you responding to that? How, how has the theater company responding to that side of things?
3
00:44:01
No, it's a great question. And you shouldn't cut it out cause I, I should have to answer that and I should be able to, to answer that it's, it's a complicated question, but you know, when we talk about 24 years of this company, I, we will be the first to admit that at least the first half of that existence, we were way too homogenous and, and insular. And you can see that in, in just the makeup of that group of company members and the makeup of staff, once we actually had staff and you can see it in the body of work, you know, it's a lot of white dude plays and we have been a work in progress.
3
00:44:46
I would say the, the latter half of our 24 years and making more progress in the past five to eight years in expanding those voices and welcoming more voices into that decision-making group of, of company members. And, you know, it's, like I said, it's 17 people now and with the variety of ages and points of view and races, we still got plenty of way to go. And similarly, the work on our stage is where it, where it has, has to start.
3
00:45:27
Like, you're, you're diluting yourself if you think, oh yeah, we can have a diverse board and a diverse audience. If, if the art that you're making, isn't speaking to and from a variety of, of voices, like why do you think that a variety of voices are going to show up to see it? So, so starting with the, with the art has been, you know, more, a more urgent focus for us in, in the past five years. But, but it's also about, and, and I, I think long and hard about this, my role as a leader of this organization, I don't say the leader because we're just not set up that way, but I, I think long and hard about, you know, how do I make space for other leaders and how do I, how do I give the next 24 year old who doesn't know that they're ready to be an artistic director, a platform to find their own leadership voice.
3
00:46:38
So that, to say that that has weighed on me a lot. This past year is, is a Supreme understatement at the same time, like I'm 47 years old. I still got some tread on the tires. I still got some stuff that I want to, to achieve. And I want to get this baby timeline, you know, to a place that I, I know it, it will sustain itself, you know, beyond my involvement.
1
00:47:09
Oh, I I'm just, so it's just a theme that's been coming up in my life, which is long game. Let's look at the favorite word. Okay. We're in the, we're in this together. Cause I it's my new favorite word. And it's like, what's the long game here because I feel like Ann and Gina and I were talking this morning about the instantaneous ness of internet. And, and, but I have to keep coming back to what's the long game. And it sounds like the other thing that makes timeline really work is the long game. Like you, you have a long game kind of a mission situation versus a short term. And I know you, everyone needs short-term goals, but I'm just impressed with the, with the long game kind of focus that you have.
1
00:47:55
And I'm wondering, like, I just am wondering where that comes from. Do you, as a kid, were you like, I'm looking at the long game or like it's probably, maybe it's maybe it's being with these people for so long and it evolves and change, right? Yeah.
3
00:48:10
I, God, I love that observation. And I truly do. I use the phrase long game all the time and I think that has been our Mo I don't, I honestly don't know where it came from. And, and Gina, to your point, I didn't read any of those books on how to start or run a theater company, which is the other crazy thing. And, you know, we all know we didn't have a single class in four years. That was like, here's how you budget. Here's how you fundraise. Here's how you market, here's how you produce. Here's what HR looks like. You know, like I didn't train a day in my life for what dominates my job at the same time.
3
00:48:51
Yeah. I trained every day of my life to, to be a theater artist and have taste and sensibility and, and just know what the theater world is like, but it's been a lot of learning on the fly, a lot of trial and error, but I would say the other secret sauce that we have had is that we've always been really honest with each other about what we're doing well and where we have to do better. And this comes back to a lot of discussions in the past year with we see you and et cetera, is like, okay, it's why I said like, no, don't cut this out.
3
00:49:34
Like I need to talk about where we're falling short and I need to be held accountable for that. And, and, and that was instilled early on and I don't take credit for it. And I don't know who should, who had the idea of, Hey, let's, let's operate like adults, but even our very first show that we did, we had a six hour post-mortem after closing the bad show where we're like, we are going to analyze every mother fucking detail of like, okay, now let's criticize the postcard and let's criticize the, the dip we served at opening night. And, and while now, thankfully, our postmortems are a little bit more expedient than six hours.
3
00:50:20
What it did is it just established a culture where we're like, okay, we're not going to pretend that we fucked this up. And, and that may hurt someone's feelings to say it out loud. We're not going to say it out loud because we're trying to point fingers or be malicious. We're just trying to be constructive and say like, we're going to fall in a lot of holes. Let's just not keep falling in the same hole. And the only way to not fall in the same hole is to say that was a whole, and, and we did a face plant there.
1
00:50:52
Yeah. Well, so I wish I had said this to Nick because I think I was thinking it when we were talking. So hopefully he'll listen to this, but
3
00:51:00
Well, I of course have a zoom with them in like an hour so I can tell them because I still can't shake that guy.
1
00:51:05
I mean, honestly, when I walked in to a Nick bowling production, it's like, I can't believe you did this to a classroom. I can't believe, I feel like I'm in the middle of the most opulent. Like he, he really has such vision. He really has. And I I'm, I'm thinking he, maybe after that conversation that he had with Lily really developed what his big picture. I mean, he's essentially his approach to creating this company is probably akin to his, his approach to filling a second floor classroom with four inches of water,
3
00:51:44
Putting naked people in it. I mean, the guy thinks the guy thinks
1
00:51:49
So, so let's get to the fun stuff about theater school, your, your experiences, your, your professors that you jelled with, ones that you didn't like, what, what w give us, give us some, some juicy.
3
00:52:03
So this is where I like list all the professors I slept with. And that's so, so, so did not happen. You know, I, I, I look back on my time at school with, with great fondness that said I was kind of an unremarkable student and I, I don't, I don't, I don't say that to, to like, be a martyr at all. Like, they kind of didn't know what to do with me, and I don't fault them for that. Like, I was just coming into my own and I think what I listened to Nick's podcast, I think there was some joking about that, of like, oh yeah, I was, I was like a boy trying to find so, so I, you know, I, I was like the king of the crappy workshop.
3
00:52:58
It was some really just questionable productions in, in, in, in classrooms. But there were some, some teachers who, who made just a lasting imprint, you know, bill brown is now one of my dearest friends and collaborators and, and like get to hire him at, at our theater. And he's an associate artist of our theater. And, and yet when he was my teacher know, I just revered him. So, you know, people like bill and David
3
00:53:49
And, and you guys have explored, you know, often some of those challenging relationships shall we say, but, but what was great about the theater school is it was kind of like a buffet and you could take what you wanted and leave behind what wasn't speaking to you. And in a course of a day, you know, you could have five different, different teachers with very different styles. And, and maybe three of those, you're like, okay, that's just not speaking to me, but, but then you, you find some of the things that, that do speak to you and you hold onto them.
1
00:54:30
What did you love about bill? Like, what are the things that, what drew you to the teachers that you loved? So what were the qualities?
3
00:54:37
Yeah, I mean, with, with, with bill, some of it also came to the back that I had seen him on stage while I was at school. And again, I don't know what pushed me to do this, but during my four years at school, I was going out and seeing a ton of theater, I would say, like, half of my education was seeing Chicago theater and my good pal, Kevin Fox was kind of the driver of that. He was, you know, the hustler and bargain hunter. And he'd be like, Hey, we're going to usher tonight at, at Steppenwolf. And then I, you know, I, I got as comps to a preview at this theater and this year. So I was going out, seeing a lot in that, that was informing what I wanted to do.
3
00:55:22
And so bill was someone that like I was seeing in shows around town. So then when I actually got to be in a classroom with him, and he was kind of the first one to bridge academia with professional life, because he was doing it, you know, we'd sit in his classroom at 11:00 AM talking to him, and then he'd be on stage at court, you know, that night. So that was just eye opening too. He was like, what are the only people doing that? Got it. Yeah. I mean, this school is very, very rare, different now, very different.
3
00:56:01
But, but he, he was, he was the only one doing that. So that, that was kind of eyeopening and, and inspiring of like, oh, I want, I want your life. So even
1
00:56:15
That was kind of ambitious because like, you're going to usher and at the, at Steppenwolf and see, see at the court, like while I was pulling bongs, like gusting apartment living room and I, which is not to say that I, I needed to do that for my, you know, for, for different reasons. I, everything is everything and I wouldn't change anything, but at the same time, like, so there's so many parts of my life where I look back and I think I wish I had just grabbed the bull by the horns a little bit more. I wish I had had kind of like, because it really honestly to make your living in a theater, you have to wake up at, like you say, I wake up every day with a list of things to do wake up every day, prepared to take the world by storm, because it is so much effort for really, I mean, we say it jokingly, but really like people who work in theater, even on Broadway, they don't make enough money like really, to, to live on.
1
00:57:14
So you, so if you're going to do it, you've got to have a very like structured approach to it, which
3
00:57:20
Well it's thank you. But it, it's, it's my number one piece of advice that I give to students. Now, when, you know, I have the privilege of getting to come in and talk to, to acting students. Now, I say, don't squander these four years. Like you are sitting in a gold mine of theater, and I know how all consuming the school can be and how overwhelming the schedule is. And it's, it's, it's, it's brutal. It's a, but when you do have that rare night off, if you're not going out to see something, you're, you're, you're going to just set yourself back once, once it's time that you're out of school, because once then you're out there auditioning, I promise you the other 10 people who all look like you sitting in the waiting room to audition, they've seen five productions that director has done.
3
00:58:17
They've they've seen a bunch of shows that that theater has done. They, they have a sense of, of maybe what the, the aesthetic is of that show. And, or the flip side of that is you may go see a lot of work at some theater or the work of a director and say, I don't want to work there. I don't want to work with that person that their work doesn't speak to me, or I find it bad, or, you know, off-putting. So you kinda gotta be in the driver's seat as an actor of, of knowing the landscape.
1
00:58:56
I did not. I knew the landscape of a Mickey's big mouth mountain malt liquor bottle. And then later on, I tried to catch up, but I that's fair. I, yeah, I have some regrets now about, and it was fine. I have regrets and yet I needed to do
3
00:59:14
And believe me, I wasn't like as nerdy as I'm coming across, I did plenty of really stupid shit, like any college student,
1
00:59:23
But I think it just speaks to, you know, that you get your crew, that you were, were hanging with. We're interested in expanding your brain about the theater arts in general. And it's no mistake that then you have a theater company that's lasted so long, I think. Yeah. And how did you, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, did you get warned and all that? Did you have the warning system going on when you were, was that a fear of yours learning
3
00:59:51
System? Yeah, I do. I do remember this a bit. Yes. I, I recall David ABV Kelly saying to me, I guess this is my second year. He was my first year acting teacher. And after he saw me in some intro in the second year, he said, you know, I, we didn't have questions about bringing you back, but after seeing that play, I then did have questions of like, do you really belong here? And it's like, wow, snap. And I think you guys heard in, in an expo say about, about Bella, that when I was in, in her class called technique, I got a C my first, first quarter and my report card came home.
3
01:00:39
My father called me and he said, what is technique? And why do you seem to not have any? And so I had to go, I had to go see Dr. Bella and you know, you'd go into her dark office and, and you stare at her. And then behind her head, she has all the pictures of incredibly famous people that, that she, she taught me, you know, it's just, it's like, you're going to be with the Godfather's wife. And, and she said like, you're just not progressing. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And she's like, you're not progressing. She goes, you don't have to stand on your head, just act. And I was like, oh, that's a pretty good piece of advice, which I, I carry with me too to this day.
3
01:01:23
And wow. Yeah, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just, just do your job. It's, it's become, it's become like vernacular with me and my wife and she's not part of the theater world at all, but you know, if we go see a play where there seems to be some overacting, shall we say, or poor acting, she she'll walk out and be like, there was a lot of standing on your head going on.
1
01:01:45
Oh my God. Well, you're really just making me remember and realize like, Chicago is really the theater place, like much more than New York, much more than any other place. And it's, and it stayed sort of steadfastly committed to some of those really like important. I mean, when I think of the things that drew me to theater to begin with, they innovation and they like very clear ensemble connection. Those are things that I feel like Chicago theater has really stayed with and why it's still so successful. So who are the timeline contemporaries, like who else has been besides the devil who else has been around for a couple of decades and is consistently producing good stuff?
1
01:02:36
Oh yeah,
3
01:02:38
No, I know I say that because sadly, so many of our contemporaries have, have faded away or folded up or, or had to totally reinvent them themselves. We've, we've sort of joked that we feel like we're on a bit of an island of the, the slow death of the midsize theater. You know, there, we have a city that has these amazing mega institutions of Goodman and Steppenwolf in Chicago, Shakespeare, and, and, and other really notable, you know, mid-sized theaters like Cort and VG and, and, and Northlight, but in my now, dear God, 30 years of being in Chicago, I can count on a few fingers.
3
01:03:31
The theaters that have grown from like small to midsize, you know, look looking glass, did it, writer's theater, did it. And then it's hard to, you know, black ensemble theater did, but it's, it's, it's hard to come up with that list. So I, I feel like we're kind of on an island, like we're not that small scrappy storefront anymore, but we're sure as heck not the Goodman by, you know, by about $20 million a year. We're not bad. So it's, it's hard to look around and be like, oh yeah, we're on the same path and trajectory as, you know, one time, one time, it was like, oh yeah, next theater.
3
01:04:12
Okay. They're not around anymore and hypocrites. Okay. They're not around anymore. So that's, it's depressing.
1
01:04:20
Yeah. That is depressing. And where is the, where is the organization trying to go? I mean, you're, you said you're trying to pave the way at some point in the future for change in leadership to turn, turn things over, but yeah.
3
01:04:33
Yeah. Well, the thing that dominates most of my life these days is we're in the process of designing a new home for timeline and, and, and trying to raise $35 million to build a new home for timeline in, in uptown, at, at Broadway and Argyle. So most of the pandemic when we're not producing plays, you know, I'm on zoom with our, our architects designing a theater and trying to do fundraising, which is an amazing privilege even just to get, to spend time, time doing that. It's also a colossal challenge.
3
01:05:14
Cause you know, PS, there was capital campaign class, a theater school.
1
01:05:21
Yeah. I missed that with, with John Jenkins. Yeah. Well,
3
01:05:25
While Phyllis was teaching us how to do back rubs of each other, you know, it was like in here's how to do a capital campaign as you're rubbing, rubbing the lower back of your classmate. So, so yeah, so the, the, the big, the big nugget that, that we're, we're trying to achieve, and, and we've been working on this for many, many years, is to get this, this new home open and, and ensure that that the foundation is laid for, for timeline for, you know, years to come, how do
1
01:06:00
You raise $35 million? I mean, I know you, you, you, you go through the process that you've identified people who are stalwart supporters of you. You figure out who, who has deep pockets, but you have to also get like other organizational support, foundational support, right? So it's lot, lots of grant writing.
3
01:06:16
This is where my favorite phrase, the long game comes back into play. And you short answer and I, I, I'm not trying to be flip is you don't do it overnight. Like you build relationships over 10, 20, 24 years. And, and you have people who, who believe in the organization, not because you had one great pitch meeting, but because they've known you for 15 years and they're like, Hey, I've seen 50 of your shows. And, and I've seen that when I've contributed in the past, you've put that to good use.
3
01:06:56
So it's, it is all, all long game. Hmm. Which is really frustrating when you're an impatient person. Like I am and want to see results.
1
01:07:11
I feel like we haven't talked very much about the ways in which you survived your experience at the theater school. I I'm gleaning that. One of the ways was that you had great friends, you had good relationships with people, but what else
3
01:07:28
The relationships were were were kind of key, you know, friendships. I, I, I made there, I mentioned Kevin Fox and Seiler Thomas and Amy Farrell and Leonard Roberts and, and Nick bowling and, and Juliette Hart. Like those, those are, those are friends for, for life. And that's what, that's what kept me going. And, and even though I was, you know, kind of on misfit island in, in school without really finding my place, I, I did feel like, like I was growing. And so that, that is sort of what, what kept me going. But, you know, when I got to school, like, I didn't know what was going to happen.
3
01:08:11
You know, we were, we were the first class. So I graduated in 95. We were the first class. You might recall who to LA. Yeah. And so, so we were also the first class who didn't go to New York, you know, prior to us, they would do a showcase in New York. And with us, they're like no more in New York. And I was like, oh, that sucks. And they're like, we're going to LA. And Los Angeles had less than no interest in me. And, and the feeling was, you know, kind of mutual. I didn't have any thoughts of going out there, but, but it's also a little, a little disappointing when you're like, great. I'm introducing myself to LA and there's not a single human who wants to meet me.
3
01:08:53
So that's like, oh, that's a little,
0
01:08:58
You have to tell the prices. Right. Story.
3
01:09:03
My, my only memory of going to Los Angeles to, to launch my acting career had nothing to do with acting, but because no one had any interest in me in Los Angeles whatsoever. I, I had a few days of free time out there because no one wanted to have a meeting. So someone, I don't know who the ringleader was, but someone was like, Hey, we're all going to go to the braces. Right. So there was, I don't know, 12, 15 of us who went and I never, in my wildest dreams thought that I would get picked by the show to be on the show. But lo and behold, and, you know, come on down, you know, and, and you have to like, go through this just very, very quick.
3
01:09:51
I can't even call it an interview, but sort of like this cattle call is you're walking in and the producers are like, what's your name? Where are you from? And, and I was like the 10th in line, behind many of my classmates. So everybody was like, I'm, so-and-so, I'm from Chicago. So by the time they got to me, I was like, yup, I'm another one of them. And, and I didn't think that they looked twice at me, but the show started. And I was like one of the first names called. And because you have to use your, your legal name, it was Patrick Powers come on to, and nobody calls me, Patrick. I mean, people who have known me my whole life, who's Patrick. So I went and I got on stage and, and then it's time to spin the big wheel.
3
01:10:40
And, and I got up there and I was like, ah, right. I've seen old ladies spin this. We're like, surely I can spend this. Well, I underestimated the weight of the woman it's heavy. Huh? It's heavy. Or I was also like a man child. So I spun the wheel and it was like barely moving. And I was like, oh my God, if it doesn't go around once, you know, then you get booed off the stage and you have to spin again. It went around exactly once and on a dollar, like exactly once. And so I'm going nuts and I've got like 12, 15 friends there.
3
01:11:20
So they're, they're going, nah, I mean, like we just took over CBS that, that day. So I'm going nuts. And I was like, yeah, baby. And then the next verse, it comes up and they spend a dollar and I was like, wait, what's the, and then the third person comes up and they spend a dollar. And my buddy Bob Barker was like, I believe this is the first time we've ever had this happen. So now we have to spin again. And I was like, oh, here's where my joy ride comes to an end, but I, I somehow won. So yes, I made it all the way to, to the showcase showdown at the end. And, and, you know, because at age 22, I didn't know how much, well the washing machine, I'm the Panama, I shit.
3
01:12:08
You not like two, $200, like $5 million a cruise on the Panama canal. But I had my, my moment in the sun and I cracked up Bob Barker on, on TV. And, and we'd, it was, it was a wild ride. So that was my, did you put that in your reel?
1
01:12:32
Did you put that in your real, please tell me you put that.
3
01:12:36
I just, I just found it on, on VHS cassette, but we'll put
1
01:12:42
That in your reel. I'm going to come to Chicago. Wait, hang on. The irony of it being called the showcase showdown. I mean, my first, my first free idea was the book you're going to write. And my second free idea is that you've got to write a play or a movie called the showcase showdown. And it's about the group of people going to LA finding less than zero interest in them and having just Bob Barker, what does it smell like? Does this smell dead? He smells really bad. Like the, the layers of
3
01:13:22
Makeup and work, like when, when you get up close, you're like, am I in a wax museum? Because I feel like I'm at Ripley's. Are you, are you at actually
1
01:13:37
I thought, you know, cause that hair, that cloth was always,
3
01:13:41
If you had, if you had on your bingo card, that I would dish dirt about Bob Barker,
0
01:13:48
You are the winner, ladies and gentlemen, please
1
01:13:52
Spay and neuter your pets and say thank you to PJ powers for a lovely interview. Thank you so much.
0
01:14:11
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