Our conversation today is with Chuck DeGroat. Chuck is a follower of Jesus, a husband to Sara for 26 years, and father to two amazing daughters. He is Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality at https://www.westernsem.edu/faculty/degroat/ (Western Theological Seminary) in Holland MI. He co-founded http://www.newbiginhouse.org/ (Newbigin House of Studies) in San Francisco where he serves as a Senior Fellow. During his years pastoring, he started two church-based counseling centers.  Chuck is an author, having written http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Egypt-Finding-Wilderness-Places/dp/1592556736/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370578228&sr=8-1&keywords=leaving+egypt (Leaving Egypt: Finding God in the Wilderness Places), http://www.amazon.com/Toughest-People-Love-Understand-Difficult/dp/0802871437 (The Toughest People to Love ), https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CJ5KK8K/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1#nav-subnav (Wholeheartedness) , a Lenten devotional is https://www.amazon.com/Falling-into-Goodness-Daily-Readings/dp/1541206401/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523721218&sr=8-1&keywords=falling+into+goodness (Falling Into Goodness,) and his latest is https://www.ivpress.com/when-narcissism-comes-to-church (When Narcissism Comes to Church ) where he diagnoses a profound problem in our churches and among our clergy, and offer a way forward.