What if playing it safe is actually keeping you from the life and relationships you truly want? Too often, fear convinces us to stay small, avoid discomfort, and stick to familiar routines, especially when it comes to our most important connections. The result? Missed opportunities for deep intimacy, vibrant trust, and authentic connection. It's a paradox: the very quest for comfort may be the greatest risk of all.

In this episode, listeners are invited to challenge the idea that comfort equals happiness. Through inspiring stories and practical tools, the conversation explores how embracing courage, even in small, everyday ways, can lead to deeper, more meaningful relationships. Discover why facing fears (rather than running from them) is essential for personal growth and intimacy, and how a simple courage practice can transform both self-perception and connection with loved ones. Whether it’s starting an uncomfortable conversation or supporting each other through life’s uncertainties, this episode offers actionable steps to help anyone move from fear to flourishing in their relationships.

Scott Simon is a thought leader, TEDx speaker, bestselling author, and founder of the Scare Your Soul movement, helping people transform their lives through small daily acts of courage. He’s worked with the UN, Nestlé, Ritz Carlton, Logitech, and the Cleveland Clinic to build braver teams and more connected cultures. When he’s not leading keynotes or designing transformative retreats, you’ll find Scott chasing live music, journaling in strange airports, or hunting down the world's best hole-in-the-wall restaurants.

Episode Highlights04:24 Overcoming the tendency to shrink back and building momentum through bravery and courage.

09:20 How embracing discomfort leads to growth and creativity.

16:16 How small actions outside your comfort zone can build courage and lead to transformative outcomes.

20:08 Challenging relationship norms for deeper bonds.

28:47 Unlocking authenticity through vulnerability in relationships.

32:10 Aligning courageous choices with core values in relationships.

35:30 Personal examples of standing in your truth.

39:56 Practicing self-awareness and micro acts of courage for relational growth.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take* Start a daily courage practice: Each day, do one small thing that scares you or takes you out of your comfort zone, just as the guest recommends. * Pause and check in with yourself: Before difficult conversations, take a moment to breathe deeply and center yourself, allowing self-awareness to guide your next steps. * Reflect on your core values: Use your values as a filter when deciding which courageous actions to take in your relationships. * Initiate honest conversations: If you're holding back something important, practice being the one to “go first” and share vulnerably, even if it feels risky. * Name your feelings in real-time: During tough moments, state what you’re experiencing physically or emotionally (e.g., “My heart is racing right now”), to foster connection and authenticity. * Seek support for brave actions: Engage a partner or friend to do something courageous together, which can increase commitment and make the experience richer. * Replace silence with authentic sharing: Consider what keeping quiet is truly serving, and choose to communicate openly instead of bottling things up. * Practice small acts of kindness: Try courage-building social acts, like initiating a friendly conversation or buying someone a coffee, to strengthen your confidence and connectedness.

MentionedScare Your Soul (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

David Schnarch (*Wikipedia link)

Conscious Loving (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Scott SimonWebsites:scottsimon.us |scareyoursoul.com

Instagram:instagram.com/scareyoursoul

Substack:scareyoursoul.substack.com

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins

Website: drjessicahiggins.com

Email: jessica@drjessicahiggins.com

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here.

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship.

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here.

Thank you! 

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Scott, thank you for joining us.

Jessica. It is so good to be with you.

Likewise. And I'm so appreciative of the work that you do and how you deliver it. I was just giving you compliments about your English background and just your ability to share stories and really help this be very accessible, but also enjoyable to read and engage with. One of the things you're really passionate about is helping people have moments of courage and chase their fears. What would you like to start with around how this became a focus? And I know we're going to be applying this to intimate relationships, but let's just get connected with you here.

Sure. And again, so great being with you. I love your work and am just very excited to talk to you about what I think is –

*******“Honestly, the key to a flourishing life and to flourishing relationships. And that is courage. Because without courage, we can't have vulnerability, intimacy, and growth. We end up getting stuck in our comfort zones and in our patterns and sometimes in loneliness and isolation.”*******

And you and I know that relationships are the key to a happy life. So if the key to a happy life is relationships, and courage is the key to that, it is really, I think, the most important practice that we can have in life. A courageous practice.

Yes.

And for me, it began with half of my life being the opposite of courageous. I grew up very shy. I was bullied for many years and lived a life of shame for those who are bullied. You know what it feels like. It's not something you want to share or talk about. And so I led this incredibly scared and small life for many years until an epiphany on an airplane overseas changed everything for me. And that really shifted my entire focus from focusing inward on what I couldn't do to chasing my fears like they were beacons of possibility.

Well, thank you for sharing just the origin story here, and also how you've been so passionate about helping people access this, and what can open for people, and the possibilities, before we turn towards a relationship. I'm curious, just even as you're sharing here, this constriction, or even as you said in your book about your superpower of wanting to hide. Right. This sense of pulling back and that constriction when some people listen may have resonance with times in their life where they have had moments of bravery or courage, and then the tendency to shrink back. And as you talk, it sounds as though this just kept building in momentum. Did you ever have times of constriction, of wanting to shrink back, or kind of that homeostasis of, like, the gravitational pull towards what was?

Jessica, I think you have just articulated the human condition. We all. Whenever we make steps towards growth, there is this inevitable want to pull back because what's on the other side of that is unknown. We don't know what is on the other side of that. And our bodies and our brains. You're more of an expert than anybody about this. But our bodies and our brains are telling us to go back into comfort. This is a scary place. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what the ramifications are.

Even if it's not our healthier, more optimal state. Right.

In fact, oftentimes, and I would argue that it isn't that I use the phrase sometimes, and it can be a little jarring, that comfort is a liar.

I love that.

And when,

****“We allow that whisper into our ear of it's going to be. It just remains where you are. It's going to be okay. This is where we need to be. This is what society tells us we should do. We don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to open up that uncomfortable conversation. We enter this zone, this kind of. We don't think it's a downward spiral, but it really is.”******

And I was very lucky when I was asked to go overseas for a year to teach English. I had no idea who I was going to be living with. I didn't speak the language of the country I was going to. I didn't even know how to teach English. Yes, you're very kind. I was an English major in college, but I did not know how to teach it.

And there are moments in our lives, Jessica. And I know all of your listeners have had them where everything is screaming say no. And for some reason, you say yes, and you step off the proverbial cliff.

Yes.

And I was really lucky because when I got on that flight, this is gonna sound very unlucky, but I think that oftentimes the things that we think are the unluckiest or the most tragic end up being the greatest gifts in our lives. I had a panic attack on that flight because I thought, I can't do this. I don't have the skills. I'd never had a really significant intimate relationship. I was shy. Everything was like, don't do this. Just don't do it. And I had this panic attack, and I was sweating, and my heart was racing, and I had a little mead spiral notebook in my backpack. Do you remember those?

Yes.

Right. Like, yes, I'll picture like a Mead spiral notebook. I don't know if they're around anymore, but I had one, and I pulled it out of my backpack, thankfully, and I set it on the tray table in front of me. And what came out of my pen were eight words. And I don't know where they came from. I don't remember ever learning this or even hearing, I swear. But I wrote,

***“Do one thing every day that scares you.”***

And Jessica, what that became for me was a courage practice. Because when I landed in this foreign environment and moved in with this wonderful family that hosted me and became almost like surrogate barons, every single day, I did something new. It was to say hello to a stranger, go to the post office, or get on a bus.

Just like the things that society doesn't tell us are courageous, but they are. They are stepping stones that are necessary for a courageous life. Just like if you want a meditation practice, you have to sit on your cushion or on your floor and enter that moment. So for a full year, I did one thing every day that scared me. And like any great practice, it worked that muscle. And by the end of that year, I was a completely different person.

Thank you for sharing that. First of all, I appreciate just your recognition that some of our most uncomfortable, even painful, tragic circumstances, something really beautiful can emerge if we're willing to turn towards that. And whatever was moving through you to pull out that notebook, something you felt probably somewhat comfortable with, but allowing a space to have creativity or access to something, then outside of what you were presently experiencing with that panic, and what you were able to follow. And I also love the challenge to give focus, commitment, and discipline. And that I think can counteract some of the normal habitual tendencies to constrict or to keep us safe in this proverbial way, of that it's an illusion, as you talk about this comfort as a lie.

And so it allowed you to stay, I'm sure, the course probably many times that you were like, I don't know, maybe all the reasons and excuses are all why you maybe didn't want to do it. But still, to be in this foreign place and all the things that you were asked to learn, I mean, it just seemed necessary also. So it was quite the incubator.

It sounds like it was. And that is such a great word to use. And I would ask your listeners in a way to think about their own lives as an incubator. And so much I deal with fear and courage every single day, I experience it myself as a human. We're all humans, and we deal with the same issues. And I also deal with it as somebody lucky enough to work with this “courage movement”, where I'm talking to people all the time about the fears that stop them from being their best, most flourishing selves. And you know,

**“The truth is so much of that fear that holds us back in relationships and in work and in our lives is imagined. It hasn't happened. Most likely it will not happen.”**

If it does happen, it may end up being the greatest outcome that you could have ever imagined, even though you are trying to achieve something else. And I'll give a very relevant example. I was married for five years, had two wonderful children, and lived in a house with a white picket fence. I mean, I can't be in beautiful Shaker Heights, Ohio, this idyllic place. And our relationship did not work. My ex-wife, Laura, and I got divorced, and I was thrust into a life of being a single co-parent, only being able to see my kids 50% of the time, which was heart-wrenching, and everything about it seemed tragic and sad, and I never thought that I would recover.

And it's funny what time and perspective do because to me that ended up being literally one of the greatest gifts of my entire life. My ex-wife and I entered a thriving functional co-parenting relationship where our kids were our North Star. And I use that phrase very intentionally. Yes, every decision that was made by the two of us, our goal was to view what was best for the kids as our North Star.

I love it.

And it also allowed me to lead a spiritual journey of my own to bring yoga into my life, which was the greatest physical and spiritual practice, probably that I've ever found for me personally. And it also led me to meet a wonderful professor at Harvard who was teaching positive psychology. And I found this whole field of people who study happy people. So when I look back on it, and I think, Jessica, we all can and should do this, is to not just accept life as this series of events that happen, but to look at those moments in our lives where we thought this is the end. This is the worst bump that I've encountered. Those usually are the most defining moments of our lives and oftentimes can provide us with wisdom and passion that we would have never achieved otherwise.

No kidding. Thank you for sharing. “And also just on some societal, whatever terms or whatever imagined sense of expectations that we have that wouldn't necessarily be something that we would say, oh, we would wish to happen or want to happen.” Right. And yet what transpired for you was quite transformative in so many ways. And really, as you're describing, in my opinion, we don't know what's going to happen. And so, entering into these dialogues or confronting things that feel scary and true and the unknown around, are we going to cultivate a new relationship? Like, what's going to happen here? We don't know. And what asks of us and the relational skills to negotiate that? And also, just all the work that you do to help people access courage. It's not that the fear isn't there.

I appreciate your acknowledgment, just as I am very much committed to the practice, but this isn't alleviating. You're. You feel fear. I feel fear. I mean, not that I don't think I. Nobody thinks. I don't.

But yes, I think you have hit on. I think maybe it is

***“One of the biggest fallacies and one of the greatest keys to open this lock. And that is not about becoming fearless.”***

A courageous practice, which I'm happy to talk to you about, people hear those words, and they wonder, what is a courageous practice? But it's not about becoming fearless like a yoga practice or a meditation practice. It's not like you get a certificate and it's done. Okay, you're a yogi or a yogini, now you're done. It is actually a lifelong practice. You can always go a level deeper. You can always reach for another complexity that you haven't encountered before.

And your body is going to be different every day.

Yes, exactly. So when you get on your mat on a Thursday, it is going to be different than a Friday, a Saturday, or a Sunday. And so I really view courage practice very much the same way that on certain days you're going to feel great, like you can conquer the world. And you go in, and you ask for that raise. You have that hard conversation with your partner that you know is going to be additive to your relationship. And some days it's just going to feel like the biggest courageous step you can take is getting out of bed in the morning.

Yes.

And to honor that, and I really do believe that when we start pushing comfort zones in small ways, not big leaps, quitting jobs or leaving relationships or moving out of the country, what we think of as these.

*****“When we think of courageous people, we think of people who have done these things that have shifted society or business or have written that book that changed everybody's mind, or literally, like quit their life and move to another country, or like Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. Changed the way that the world operates. And of course those people are courageous, but so are you and so am I, and so is everybody listening.”*******

And if we just allowed ourselves the grace to not have to do these big, huge acts, but actually

“Choose to just do small things every single day.”

I promise you, those things build momentum. They build self-efficacy, like a sense of agency in us. And with everyone, we start to see what's on the other side of uncertainty. And sometimes those things are unexpected, and sometimes they are beautiful, and sometimes they are powerful. And I'll just give you a quick example that's completely actionable for everybody listening and is scary. Okay? It's scary. I'm gonna say, when I started Scare Your Soul, which is our “courage movement,” I began offering challenges to people because people were desperate for practical ways that they could become more courageous in their lives. And I think it was the first practice.

If it wasn't the first, it was among the first, and it was the next time you're getting a cup of coffee at a coffee shop, look at the person behind you, ask them if you could buy them a cup of coffee, and then have a conversation with them as you are both waiting for your coffees. Okay? That's it.

I love it.

I have done it around 250 times, and it has become famous within our community. And here's the funny thing, Jessica, apropos to what you said before, it's never easy. Even after 250 cups of coffee that I have bought every single time, it's a question mark. What is this person going to say? What's the interaction going to be like? Are they empty? Am I going to feel rejected? This is so relevant to relationships. Literally. What is this going to do to my self-conception? Is there going to be a scene? Is it going to be embarrassing? All of these projected questions that we all live our lives with every single day. And this is an act that, for me, allows me to confront that as a human. 99% of the time, there is a wonderful positive outcome.

Yes, every once in a while, you get an itchy person who you know is either having a bad day or it's not their cup of tea, no pun intended, and they decline, or they ignore you, or something like that. But really, that's not the point. The point is

**“That's when we take steps into uncomfortability, whether it's in a coffee shop or with a partner, and do the right thing, do the thing that is based in courage, and in service and in love.”**

That's the kind of life I want to lead, and I think everybody does.

*“And when we do these things in small ways, it really builds that muscle and we start to see ourselves, not just as people doing courageous acts, but as courageous people just leading our lives.”*

Absolutely. I love the smile when you share what this means to you. And as you mentioned, positive psychology and happiness research, I feel that this also dovetails really beautifully into that work, and that it's acts of kindness or acts of service, and it's also interacting. There's a social component to it, and I think it's really adding a ripple effect and making a difference in someone's life or even in a small, short way that doesn't ask a whole lot. So as we look at intimate relationships, one of the things, as you were talking and even sharing your own story and people's preconceived notions around what it means to be a good partner, or what are the vows, what are the commitments? And that might challenge, as you say, the status quo or the comfort zones of just this confinement.

And it's not to say, oh, if we're really giving room and space, that any of those vows or commitments would be challenged. It's just this kind of, again, this lie that we have to live in these confines of a box of some sort. And when you are working with people and the examples around how they're negotiating more intimate courage acts or in their romantic relationship, is there anything you want to say about how people might approach the relational space with a lot of this heaviness of what? I'm sorry, the question's getting bigger and bigger, but I'm aware that people's attachment tendencies around how they expect other people to respond to them, how they relate, you know, just a sense of holding back, that is part of how they organize in the world. So that isn't even just the relationship; it's just how they function.

But there are a lot of layers here around what interactions have happened in the past that somehow it was. Didn't go well. And so it's almost this information around, like, let's not go there. Let's not do that again. So. And this is high stakes. That's why I think it's really important for Aeriths to be a little bit more specific about the romantic space. Because when we talk about the nervous system, we see our intimate partner as survival. So you said something about micro, like, I imagine that fits here. So talk to the bigger picture, and then let's see if we can make this a little bit more practical.

Yeah. And I want to honor everything that you just said. It is so true. And Right. Like

**“To lead a courageous life does not mean leading an easy and carefree and wrapped up in bubble wrap life. It doesn't.”****

And I think we've all had experiences with loved ones and significant others where an interaction where we wanted the right thing to happen or the expected thing to happen didn't, and it caused trauma or disconnection or even just feeling that it didn't go well. I think that is absolutely part and parcel of this work. I think that where I get interested, as both a person who wants to have strong, intimate relationships in my own life and in helping others, is identifying where the fear exists that is holding us back from doing what we believe is in the service of the relationship.

And I'm not a psychologist, and although I have a certificate in positive psychology, I would not even call myself a positive psychologist. But I coached divorcing men for a very long time. They began to come to me because they saw my amazing ex-wife and co-parent, Laura, and me sitting together at every ballet recital, every basketball game. They would see us laughing, connecting, and sharing. And then they would see her leave with her husband, who's an amazing guy. And so men would start calling me and asking me to have coffee. And it wasn't about the kind of coffee I was talking about earlier, where you're buying coffee for a stranger. This was, I need help. And we would sit in my living room, just the two of us, many men over the years.

And I began to see that it was fear that was stopping them from doing what they, in their gut, in their intuition knew was right for that relationship, but they were too afraid to do it. And we began talking about, first of all, what silence was doing for them or against them in that moment, what silence was serving? And I would allow that question to drop. And real wisdom arose from that question. And most oftentimes, it was silence that was not serving. And even if there was a previous interaction that was rough and rocky and bumpy and left people feeling raw, that authenticity and truth and allowing ourselves to step vulnerable towards someone as opposed to away from them is a good thing.

I don't know instances where, I mean, I don't speak in absolutes typically, but I don't see that resulting in anything negative that even if it's hard to hear, but even just smaller scale that typically it's gonna be the thing that actually helps Bring connection, even if it's difficult to hear or even if it's just like I didn't know that or being able tolerate. Thank you for speaking to this. This is so important. So please continue. Sorry.

Yeah. No, no, no. I'm so glad you're adding context to this. A phrase that I would often use with the men who would come to meet with me. And it's very simple, it's two words. And I'll be curious to hear if you disagree with it, but I would always use the phrase go first. And I think when you lead a go-first life.

Yeah.

You are, first of all, being courageous, bold, and brave because we all know how it feels when we say to ourselves, I know there's that conversation that is hiding under that rug, and I just hope they bring it up first, and we can avoid it until that happens. And I see this, of course, a lot in the workspace where things are happening, people are avoiding the tough conversation. I've worked with CEOs who were afraid to tell their boards bad news, understandably. But when you adopt a go-first life, you are the tip of that spear, and you begin to say, we both know that we have to have this conversation, and you begin it.

And I don't know the statistics around what happens after that, but I think the vast majority of people are so thrilled and relieved and proud of themselves that they actually had that conversation, and they opened it up first.

Absolutely. I mean it's making what you're talking about, the self efficacy, the agency, the authenticity and being in alignment in my working with couples, when someone can access a deeper fear that's vulnerable, doesn't feel pretty or sexy or anything or the thing that I'm afraid is going to be too upsetting for my partner to hear what have you, or just that it's going to get things off track. Usually, people feel so relieved, they feel lighter, they feel more whole. And then to the concept of going first, like it's setting a tone. And one of the things that I feel is particularly important is staying more on track.

There's an efficiency level to it, and that we're not going to take all these off-track routes that might lead to more pain and more armoring up and decisions or inefficiencies that don't result in the thing that we're wanting to cultivate. But there's also something that I think happens in the interaction when somebody's reading the nervous system of the other and cues of closed, it's really hard to be open. Right. So it's just. It has this ripple effect. So if one is gonna go first, there's a setting the tone, it's the leadership that you're describing. And it's also inviting the openness that typically, the other person will sense whether or not they're too afraid to follow. I mean, we can't do anything about that. But I do believe that this is really powerful and that we can always start.

Even if your partner initiated and had a harsh startup, so to speak, we can still access. And this vulnerability, I mean, this is Brene Brown‘s work. I mean, so much EFT like all of this, and even the professor, Harvardprofessor that you were speaking about in your book, and this question of like, how are you really? And three minutes to answer that, or the way in which we can drop into more revealing. It's connected. The research says over and over again how connected it is.

Absolutely. And it's holistic because when we start acting more bravely in our work lives, it integrates into our personal lives and vice versa. We're the same human. We arrive at work as the same person who leaves and goes home and interacts with our kids, our significant others, or our parents as a caregiver. It is integrated. And I'd like to add just one layer if I could. And that is what happens when people start pursuing a courageous practice and doing it together.

Let's hear.

Because I think there is so much of my work and the work of scare your soul, which is this kind of very organic global courage movement where people are doing brave things and giving feedback to the community, and we're all in it just to support each other, taking brave actions in our lives. That's it. There's no intended outcome other than can we all lead the best, most honest, most authentic, most giving lives possible. And when you do it in the context of others, the effect is. So it's like a multiplier effect and acts on what we can do alone.

Yes.

And so when you have a significant other who is of a mindset where they're willing to start this process together, they're. They're willing to be bolder every single day in small ways. You end up engaging in experiences, in conversations, building memories together that are so rich. And I'm not going to say again that this is easy, that it's this linear path. It isn't, but my girlfriend and I were just in the Grand Canyon the other day, and she said to me, there is a mule ride that takes you from the top of Bright Angel Canyon all the way down four and a half miles and back up. And oftentimes the mule is right on the edge of this trail where there are all these loose stones. And I have a fear of heights that holds most humans.

Now, here's the interesting part about this. She asked me if I would like to do it, and I said yes. I said yes, partially because I have a courage practice, and I do one thing every day that scares me, and this was going to be my thing of the day. But as we got closer and we started to read more about it, and in the materials, it said, by the way, if you have a fear of heights and this may not be comfortable for you, there's an easy way to cancel. No questions asked, we'll give your money back. And so she looked at me, and she said, do you want to cancel? Like, it's totally fine. And I looked at her, and I thought to myself, you know what? We're doing this together. There's no way I'm canceling.

If I were doing it alone, I would give you a 50% chance that I would cancel that, but because someone was doing it with me, and she knew what I was going through, and she was there for me as we did. And we knew that this was going to build muscle and memory. And you know what? I did it, Gary. Hell, yes. It really was. But by the time we got down to halfway, I was loving it, and my trust level was so much stronger. And by the time I got to the top, Jessica. We looked down at the Grand Canyon, and I had a different relationship with the Grand Canyon than I had before I started. Yeah, it looked just as beautiful, and it looked.

The colors were just as vibrant, but it was like I was part of the Grand Canyon. I wasn't just looking at it. That's life.

Yes.

When we engage, when we do the scary thing, and when we do it with people who love us or support us, it is so much richer, and our chances for launching ourselves off the cliff are proverbially so much greater. And then we get to share those memories with that other deeply held person. “Oh, my gosh. What a way to lead life.”

Absolutely. And you had an experience you weren't observing, you were experiencing, and it was now a part of you. And yes, in couplehood, a lot of the research really endorses what. How much more resilient, how much stronger we are when we're in partnership. So this support that you're referring to. And also, we can inspire each other, hold each other accountable, and, you know, really stretch these stretch goals. So I know we're winding down here. I have two questions I want to ask. One is for people listening; I can just feel a little bit of a rattle. And I know that so much of what you're speaking to has an element of service, has an element of kindness.

One of the things I've understood about people who hold back from saying, as you were talking about coaching men contemplating divorce or going through a divorce, is this sense of self-interest. I mean, sure, there is self-interest and self-focus that does benefit the greater good, but do you have quality checks that you help people evaluate? Is this something that is going to be good? Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about that because a lot of this is fear, and a lot of it is our mechanisms to keep us in habitual states. But talk to us a little bit about how that encourages one to take these brave, courageous acts.

To me, values are the foundation of it all. And I think if you were to ask me to come up with one kind of filter, one quality check, as you said, for the kind of brave actions that I attempt to take every day, whether they're in a relationship or not, but certainly within a relationship. I have a section in my book, and if people want to find a list of values or define the values that are most important for them, there are many ways to find that. But I always go back to what my core values are as a person, what drives me, what informs me, where are my foundational stones? And if I'm operating from those values, I think I'm on track. And I think this is so important to reiterate. This is hard work. It really is.

I in no way am saying that if you go out and buy a hundred cups of coffee, you're going to have a great relationship with your partner. This is hard work. But I think if we all look at the relationships that mean the most to us in life, those 2 am phone calls that you make when you're stuck at the airport, or the first phone call that you make when you enter a breakup or something tragic is happening, those are not relationships that are founded in comfort.

**“Those are relationships that are founded in honesty and love and authenticity. And you don't always say the easy and comfortable thing. And it's not always nice and sweet and pleasant. It is real.”**

“It's real. Courage is rooted in. I mean, the word comes from the heart.”

Yeah.

“The word courage isn't about doing these things outside of us. It is doing what our heart tells us is the right thing for us.”

Our loved ones and the world. And if we can ground ourselves in what our values are and then use those values as the compass and not allow those fears, those imagined toxic fears, to stop us, we are going to lead lives that are full of passion and authenticity and audaciousness. And I don't know about you, but that's the path I want. I want the path down the Grand Canyon. We can all stand at the top looking in and marveling. You could look at a photo on the inside. You don't even have to go. You could look at a photo in five seconds, and it's going to be gorgeous. I don't want that life.

I want the life on the mule clomping down about to look over the edge. That's the life I want. I want love and service and kindness and passion, and I don't know any better way of achieving it than doing the brave thing every single day.

Yeah, thank you, Scott. I appreciate that. A quick example for people listening from my own life, that this isn't about saying what you observe about the other person. This isn't about giving someone feedback or here's my assessment about. It's this very core need or desire or dream that you speak about. It's not about what you think about other people. This is a very intimate thing. And this was like 2005, 2006, different people referenced some of what you're talking about. And I had been reading some of David Schnarch's work. So he's all about “differentiation and learning how to hold onto yourself and speaking, tolerating discomfort.” And then I was also reading* Gay and Katie Hendricks's work, “Conscious Intimate Relationship”, and they're talking about, say have a sweaty 10-minute conversation*.

And I was dating my now husband, and I had a feeling that it was super socially awkward, to be honest. Initially, he was like offering this invite, and I told him I had other plans, and he kind of retracted it in a joke, and I was like, is he playing with me? Like what's going on? So I actually shared what that felt like, and that was like we're just like not never hadn't even been on an actual date yet. And that was super uncomfortable. Socially awkward. But I felt like I held to something I was experiencing and helping him know me more. But the more vulnerable was fast forward many months, I felt like I was more into him than he was with me.

And I just his expressional or his expression and his verbal cues and all the things I just Couldn't read him as well. Nonetheless, I really stayed with that, and I shared that with him, and I, oh my God, I can still feel it inside me how terrifying it was to share. But I felt the importance of not getting into this game of like who's calling who, or you know, overthinking things. I just wanted to own and also be in the service of. I want something deep and real, and if he's just wanting to play, great, but that's not what I'm about. So to be able to speak that, it did feel like stepping off the cliff.

And gratefully, he responded in a way that really helped us know each other more, but it provided access to a deeper connection, versus us kind of playing and dancing around each other, but more. I also didn't abandon myself as I stood in what, to your values point, I had the value of a long-term partnership. And so that was not easy work.

I'm so glad you brought up that example. I think that is so real and true, and we all go through it every single day. The complexity of our relationships, both intimate and work, and friendships are fraught. And your ability to stand in an embodied way in yourself and have that conversation before you even went on your first date is, first of all, gave him the awareness of what he was dealing with. I feel like he does immediately. And guess what? He didn't run from it. Yeah. And I think it is so indicative of that example that this was a relationship where he was ready to go there with you, were going to be brave, bold, authentic, live in your values, say what was really happening, he took it in, was able to respond, the relationship was able to progress. Yeah.

I would say if he acted differently, responded differently, that's probably not the right guy for you.

No, it would have been great information.

Great information. Right. So I know that's really hard. But I think when we step boldly and have that go first mentality, and we put ourselves at the edge of that proverbial cliff and say,

“The thing that might risk feeling rejection, might risk feeling sadness or regret, all of those things that we armor up against, that's where the gold is.”

It really is. That's where the gold is. And so if people can just kind of remember how they navigate those most trusted relationships in their lives, where there's no filter, you just, you say it because it's hard and because it's love. If we're able to approach all of our relationships like that, whether it's the person in the coffee shop behind you or the person you're coming home to at night, you start to really lead a courageous, honest, loving life.

That's what it's all about.

Yes, yes. Well, my other question, I'm just gonna point people to your book for, but I will speak briefly in that when we. As you were saying, it doesn't have to be these big leaps. It can be these small increments in conversation, sometimes things are moving quickly. Some people don't even know what they're feeling. So just even saying I notice my body feels tight right now, or I'm noticing my heart is racing, or I feel a little scared, I don't want to say something that might get us off track, like that is a courageous small action. So many micro moves help support this practice. And anything you want to say before we then pivot to how people can get in touch with you and what you're offering in your book?

Absolutely. I think that,

“You have nailed the first micro step. And that is a sense of self-awareness. You could call it mindfulness, you can call it presence.”

It is first being aware of our own bodies, our own reactions, our own thoughts. This is where box breathing is the biggest savior I've ever come across. And I can't tell you how many times I box breathed on my way down the Grand Canyon.

Knowing and being able to say, okay, my heart is racing. Okay, check. Yes, I'm feeling flush. My stomach feels like there's a load of butterflies in them. I'm going to just breathe. At this moment, I don't have to act. I'm in control of my choices and my actions. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do. That's self-control, that self-efficacy at its greatest. Right? Nobody ever feels like courage is about leaping off a cliff without paying attention or caring. It is about doing things that are rooted in who we are, growth, connection, and love. And when we are rooted in those things, which to me all begin with the self. I mean, we all know this, right? Self-love has to come first before love for others.

In fact, I always felt that,

Relationships don't fail because there's a lack of love. It fails when there's a fear of bringing your authentic self to that relationship.

Well said. And you know, even if we don't know, we can say I'm feeling flooded, or I'm just that my brain is feeling foggy. This is super important. I want to take some time, and then we'll regroup. I mean, maybe the box breathing does offer a bit of space and capacity there. Great. Well, Scott, how would you like to encourage people if they're resonating or want to get engaged with your movement? Tell us about your book again. You've mentioned it a few times.

So the best way for people to get a hold of me is at Scott Simon, Us that has everything, all of my workshops, blog posts. I have a weekly newsletter that goes out for free. We've done 750 of them. Each one has a courage challenge. You can go back to prior challenges. So if you really want to launch yourself into this work, there are great practical ways to do that. And then the Scare Your Soul “courage movement” is at @scareyoursoul.com; it's all free. It's all about people pushing their comfort zones. There are free challenges there. There are handbooks, there are videos. I encourage anybody to visit, take a look, and reach out to me if you have questions. My book was an incredible blessing.

A publisher in New York found my website and asked me to write a book about courage, which was an incredibly amazing experience. It's called “Scare Your Soul”. You can find it anywhere. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and a lot of independent bookstores around the country. So I'd love for people to access that and reach out to me anytime. This is my passion in this world. So if there's any way that I can be helpful, I love to do that.

I'll make sure to have the links on today's show notes, and I am sure people will be interested in the workshops and what they can find on your website, as well as your book and the movement. And it sounds like, is it's national, international?

There are no boundaries to this. And we have people literally around the world who are active participants.

The post ERP 512: The Courage Practice: How Facing Fear Deepens Intimacy and Connection — An Interview with Scott Simon appeared first on Jessica Higgins.