Bankruptcy Law Success: Recent Episodes
Bob Hiler
The Bankruptcy Law Success podcast introduces you to successful bankruptcy lawyers, as well as powerful ideas that will transform your bankruptcy practice. It's hosted by Bob Hiler.
I interview Jarred Henline, a bankruptcy attorney in Lehi, Utah who has gone from filing two bankruptcies a month in 2019 to 14 filings/month in the last three years. That's a 7x increase!During those three years, Jarred has done two things. First, he started offering $0 down bifurcated Chapter 7 bankruptcies. And second, he hired me to run his marketing campaigns to generate leads for him.Some of the highlights in this interview include: How Jarred has filed 14 bankruptcies a month for the last three years The advice that Jarred would give another bankruptcy lawyer afraid to start offering $0 down bifurcated 7s The exact "sales funnel" that Jarred has leveraged to turn even weak leads from Facebook into bankruptcy filings Jarred's approach to converting 53% of his qualified leads into actual filings * Why he hasn't needed to wait for the fabled post-pandemic "bankruptcy tsunami" to file enough bankruptcy cases to pay himself a living wage * And a whole lot more, including his approach to complying with the recent USTP memo on bifurcated Chapter 7sYou can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
The great news is that the U.S. Trustee Program has finally blessed bifurcated Chapter 7 bankruptcies, as long as they're done properly!
Here's the key sentence from the memo: "Absent contrary local authority, it is the USTP's position that bifurcated fee agreements are permissible so long as the fees charged under the agreements are fair and reasonable, the agreements are entered into with the debtor's fully informed consent, and the agreements are adequately disclosed."
So in this podcast episode, I give my overall reaction to this apparent paradigm shift in the UST's attitude towards bifurcation. Also, it's a five page memo with 22 footnotes, so I also want to review the USTP's new positions on all the little things that make bankruptcy such a detail-oriented practice.
Most important, for the first time ever, the USTP is actually giving us a perfect roadmap to follow so that we can offer bifurcated Chapter 7 in bankruptcies 100% safely!
So it's very important that in the new USTP memo, the USTP articulates for the first time its position on many of these specific issues involved in bifurcation. So all we need to do now is understand the USTP positions and act accordingly, and we'll be able to offer bifurcated chapter 7 bankruptcies safely , without worry that our local UST will come after us.
So with that in mind, this podcast episode reviews the 14 positions that the USTP articulates in its memo, and lays out that perfect roadmap for any bankruptcy lawyer to follow!
Are bifurcated Chapter 7s actually legal?
This is the second part of a 2-part episode that answers that simple question:
In the first part, I went over 5 specific mistakes that you need to avoid in order to "bulletproof" your bifurcated Chapter 7s from a US Trustee.
In this second part, I update these 5 mistakes with lessons that I've learned over the last 2 and a half years, as well as some new case law. In fact, I even added a new mistake based on a recent case out of Missouri (see In re Allen).
I've also written a companion "bifurcation case law summary" to go along with this podcast series. You can download it for free here: https://bklawsuccess.com/caselaw/
You can also subscribe to my podcast here: https://bklawsuccess.com/podcast/
If you've ever wondered if bifurcated Chapter 7s are actually legal or not, this is the episode for you.
The surprising truth is that after a tidal wave of legal innovation, many bankruptcy lawyers routinely offer zero down Chapter 7s. You just have to follow the arcane rules involving bifurcating your cases into prepetition and postpetition portions. And as it turns out, no judge has ever ruled that a Chapter 7 cannot be bifurcated, so long as it's done correctly.
This is part 1 of a 2-part episode, where we start by busting the top three bifurcation myths, including:
- Why bifurcated Chapter 7s do NOT violate the automatic stay or discharge injunction, even though you're collecting money postpetition from debtors
- How "saddling" poor debtors with a postpetition payment plan for a bifurcated bankruptcy is way better than the alternative of no traditional bankruptcy at all
- Why it's a total myth that there are many US Trustee enforcement actions that prove that bifurcated Chapter 7s are illegal
I also go over the 5 specific mistakes you need to avoid in order to get into hot water with the US Trustee.
Finally, if you'd like to get my Bifurcation Case Law Summary for free, you can sign up here: https://bklawsuccess.com/caselaw/
If you're new to my podcast, listen to this podcast episode first!
I've been on a journey for years to find an infallible system that any bankruptcy attorney can use to create a practice that frees debtors from the shackles of debt, while also generating a healthy 7-figure income.
At this point, I think I've found it. And in this podcast, I explain everything I've learned, including:
- Why the first step to bankruptcy success is offering a true $0 down bifurcated Chapter 7 bankruptcy
- The legal underpinnings behind bifurcating a Chapter 7 so masterfully that even a skeptical US Trustee can't complain
- The painful way that I learned that "zero down" bankruptcies can't just be the sizzle, it also has to be the steak
- Why the overlooked "too poor to file a traditional bankruptcy" market is the secret to avoiding the typical bankruptcy attorney's vow of poverty
- How Google Ads can make a bankruptcy attorney rich, but only Facebook Ads can make a bankruptcy attorney wealthy
You can also read a transcript of this episode here: https://bklawsuccess.com/the-secret-to-becoming-a-7-figure-bankruptcy-attorney/
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Jake Parent, a sales genius who developed what I call a sales script that’s so effective that it can convert 80% of appointments into retained bankruptcy clients. In fact, it’s so effective that I call it the “Irresistible Bankruptcy Sales Script.”
If you’re a bankruptcy lawyer that’s not converting 80% of your appointments, you need to stop what you’re doing and listen to this podcast. Then you need to listen to it again. And then you need to download Jake’s sales script, practice it, and use it for every consultation.
To help bankruptcy attorneys retain more clients, Jake has generously agreed to let me offer four things for you to download: http://lawleading.com/the-irresistible-bankruptcy-sales-script/
- the exact word-for-word sales script he developed that converts 80% of appointments into bankruptcy clients
- his highly effective sales script outline that helps you land clients without sounding canned
- the one-page Powerpoint slide that he uses to get prospects to sign on the line that is dotted, and
- his comprehensive list of services involved in a bankruptcy that makes clients understand your price is justified, as well as justifying "reasonableness" for any US Trustee.
You can get all these files for free sent to your email inbox by going here right now: http://lawleading.com/the-irresistible-bankruptcy-sales-script/
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- The exact word-for-word script you can use to retain 80% of the appointments that come into your bankruptcy law office.
- How to get prospects to sell themselves on filing bankruptcy ASAP (so you don't have to).
- Which legal questions repel clients—and the questions you should be asking instead.
- Why it’s actually a positive sign when your clients break down crying while talking to you.
- And a whole lot more, including exactly what to say to make prospects understand that filing cases pro se is not the way to go.
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Don Golden, a bankruptcy attorney in Brandon, Florida who dominates his local Google "map pack" and files about 40 bankruptcies a month.
In this interview, Don is remarkably candid about how his bankruptcy practice was hobbled by Google's Penguin update, and how he turned things around by obsessively tracking his numbers and building systems.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- The exact strategies that has helped him build his bankruptcy filing volume to 40 cases a month.
- The so-crazy-you'll-never-copy-it tactic that has generated 71 Google reviews for his firm, and made Google list him as the #1 bankruptcy attorney for miles around his office.
- Why he decided years ago to spend $12,000 on software to track his leads--even though he'd just been Google-slapped and lost most of his leads--and how that software paid for itself almost instantly.
- Why he doesn't offer "zero down bankruptcies," and what he offers instead.
- And a whole lot more, including how he's replaced himself for day-to-day legal work and precisely how he's totally redefined his full-time job at his own practice...
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Dan Garrison, a bankruptcy attorney who co-founded Fresh Start Funding with Matt Hartley to help other attorneys offer zero-down Chapter 7s.
I learned two things talking to Dan. First, after talking to Dan, I am much more confident that bankruptcy attorneys should go ahead and offer zero-down Chapter 7s today, as long as they do it properly as described in this interview. (I was more wary before.)
Second, I was impressed by Fresh Start's "mid-single digit" default rate, as well as its revenue share being up to 75% of post-petition fees.
One last thing... In this interview, Dan talks about practices growing by 25-30% after implementing zero-down Chapter 7s. I think Dan is being fairly conservative. From what I'm seeing, once you figure out how to sell zero-down bankruptcies (and you figure out your marketing), you can double or triple your filings.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Why bankruptcy attorneys who offer zero-down Chapter 7s see huge increases in their bankruptcy filings versus old-school "layaway plans"
- The specific two requirements you should have prospects meet before you lend them money by doing a zero-down bankruptcy
- Exactly how offering zero-down bankruptcies helps you avoid clients who use sob stories to try to beat you down on price
- The ethical and legal reasons you should never "factor" your accounts receivables in order to offer zero-down bankruptcies (and what to do instead)
- And a whole lot more, including how you can radically reduce the risk of being the first in your district to offer a zero-down bankruptcy
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Steven Skelton, a trained salesperson who answers the phone for his bankruptcy attorney clients.
Steven has spent his career in sales, even before he started helping his wife, Susan Skelton, increase sales at her bankruptcy practice. Simply by exercising his sales muscles, he was able to help his wife's practice go from a one-room subleased office, to become a consistent top-10 filer in the Eastern District of Missouri.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Why it's dumb for bankruptcy attorneys to spend thousands of marketing dollars to make the phone ring, and then have somebody not trained in sales picking up those calls
- The lesson that Steven learned selling cars about the one thing you need to do in order to close a sale.
- The not-so-obvious reason that it's a bad idea for even sales-y receptionists to be picking up your phone. (Hint: sometimes, it's not even about who picks up the phone, it's about whether they have time to listen to prospects.)
- The exact reply you should give when asked the most common question: "How much do you charge for a bankruptcy?"
- And a whole lot more, including the difference between "dreamers" and "problem-solvers," and how all would-be bankruptcy clients can be classified as one or the other (and exactly what to say to each type of prospect).
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Michael Hoverson, a bankruptcy lawyer in Minneapolis who has filed bankruptcies for 31 years. Over the years, he's also noticed that there are many debts that bankruptcy completely ignores.
So he's learned legal techniques to slay these "zombie debts," like student loans and tax debts. That's one reason he's been able to spend less on marketing, yet still keep busy in a shrinking bankruptcy market.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- How Michael learned how bankruptcy can help with student loans, by practicing in a world long ago where the Bankruptcy Code didn't have a huge student loan loophole.
- How you can turn a single bankruptcy lead into FIVE SEPARATE CASES: (1) a bankruptcy petition, (2) an IRS tax resolution case, (3) a state tax case, (4) private student loan litigation, and (5) a federal student loan rehabilitation case.
- When Michael uses the "undue harship" standard to discharge student loans (and when he doesn't bother trying).
- Exactly how he gets clients eager to pay large legal bills to make their tax problems go away.
- And a whole lot more, including how to make money from enrolling federal student loan borrowers into income-based repayment plans.
I interview Mike Ziegler of Clearwater, Florida, a bankruptcy attorney who does more than just bankruptcies. In fact, in addition to foreclosure defense, Mike offers an “alphabet soup” of consumer plaintiffs’ claims, including FCRA, FDCPA and TCPA.
Mike has blazed a new trail for bankruptcy attorneys who aren’t scared of litigation. And since consumer plaintiff’s claims pay more than bankruptcy filings, it’s easier to make more money doing it, too. In this remarkably candid interview, Mike explains exactly what he does, how he makes money doing it, and how you can do it too.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Exactly how Mike has leveraged the "alphabet soup" of FCRA, FDCPA, and TCPA complaints to make a lot more than somebody who just does bankruptcies.
- Why not being scared of litigation is the first step to offering more than bankruptcies.
- Exactly how you can get consumer plaintiffs' claims from the exact same people for whom you’re already filing bankruptcies.
- How focusing on "recovery per time in the case" made Mike realize that consumer plaintiffs' claims were much more profitable for his law firm.
- How doing plaintiffs’ claim work has been critical to his firm's growth and stability.
- And a whole lot more, including the exact statute you should leverage to get the overwhelming majority of your consumer plaintiffs' claims to settle before the trial is even scheduled.
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Michael Jaafar of Fairmax Law in Detroit. I had previously interviewed Michael about private student loans on the podcast, and we got to talking on the phone one day. Michael mentioned that he had found a simple method that any bankruptcy lawyer can use to easily double their bankruptcy revenues by leveraging the Fair Credit Reporting Act. So I invited Michael to come back on the podcast and tell us all about it.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Why credit bureaus have almost no obligation to "get it right" for consumers whose credit data they screw up, except after a bankruptcy.
- The exact way to turn 20% of your bankruptcy cases into lucrative FCRA cases, just by asking your clients to pull their credit report.
- The reason that credit bureaus settle FCRA complaints every single time...
- The one book you should buy to learn how to file FCRA cases properly.
- And a whole lot more, including exactly how turning 20% of your bankruptcy filings into FCRA cases can more than double your bankruptcy revenue.
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: http://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview David Stidham, CEO of BK Billing, which buys IOUs from bankruptcy lawyers so that they can offer "$0 down" Chapter 7s. By offering financing to cash-strapped prospects, David's bankruptcy lawyer clients are growing by leaps and bounds--and running over more conservative competitors.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Why you should care what BK Billing does, even though it sounds boring.
- The exact discount that BK Billing pays when it buys IOUs from bankruptcy lawyers who are willing to do a Chapter 7 for clients in exchange for an IOU.
- Why you should surf the "$0 down" Chapter 7 wave with or without BK Billing, before that wave wipes out all the lollygaggers.
- Exactly how some BK Billing clients have grown their filings by over five times...
- How to use post-petition service contracts to avoid slashing your fees for cash-strapped prospects, possibly doubling your average fee...
- A legal strategy that lets you charge for a Chapter 7 even after it discharges pre-petition debts.
- And a whole lot more, including some tips on how to offer "$0 down" Chapter 7s by yourself.
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Austin Smith, a bankruptcy lawyer in New York City who is devoted to discharging student loans in bankruptcy. Austin is a legal genius who has blazed a trail for discharging student loans that other bankruptcy lawyers can follow.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- How Austin invented a novel legal theory that allows him to discharge many private student loans in bankruptcy.
- Why student loans to attend "unqualified" institutions can be reliably discharged via bankruptcy (and how to determine which institutions are unqualified).
- Exactly how some former students can also discharge their student loans (Hint: part-timers and foreigners may be in luck).
- And most important, how to calculate a student's annual "cost of attendance" to identify which private student loans can be discharged entirely.
- And a whole lot more, including how to settle with student lenders to reduce loan balances to pennies on the dollar, without ever stepping foot in court.
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Christie Arkovich, a bankruptcy lawyer in Tampa who has grown her student loan law practice to over 75% of her practice. Christie tells us exactly how she's been able to pivot from the shrinking bankruptcy market to the booming market for student loan lawyers.
- How she's grown her student loan work--in and out of bankruptcy--to 75% of her practice.
- Why bankruptcy creates ticking time bombs for clients with student loans (and exactly how to defuse those bombs).
- How to make money setting up income-based repayment plans for federal loans, even if your clients are destitute.
- The exact legal approach that lets you discharge private student loan debt when your clients have attended "unqualified" institutions.
- And a whole lot more, including how student loans clients are "the happiest I've ever seen."
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Michael Jaafar, a bankruptcy attorney in Detroit who believes that he's found bankruptcy's Holy Grail: discharging student loans in bankruptcy. Or, at least, a way of discharging 80% of private student loans in bankruptcy.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Why you don't have to do anything extra to discharge those student loans besides fill out Schedule F like you usually do
- The exact legal approach that enables you to re-open old bankruptcies, so that you can discharge most private student loans, get back all payments made since that bankruptcy, and get attorney fees and statutory damages, too
- How you can convert your past bankruptcies into a gold mine of huge payoffs for your clients (and you, too)
- And a whole lot more, including how satisfying it is to discharge a client's private student loans and "change the trajectory of their life forever"
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Bob Weed, a bankruptcy attorney in Northern Virginia who happens to have been my client for the last year.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- How he used paid ads to more-than-replace half his organic leads, after Google chopped his organic search traffic in half
- How those paid ads -- and a few marketing tweaks -- helped him grow in a bankruptcy market that's "been going down, down, down, down, down"
- The exact change he made that increased his retainers by a third, without spending a single penny more
- And a whole bunch more, including how to "warm up" potential clients from the Internet so they're as "hot" as a referral lead
I interview Marcos Oliva, a bankruptcy attorney in the Rio Grande Valley in the southern tip of Texas. Some of the highlights in this interview include: * The crazy story of how he was "forced" to acquire a competitor's bankruptcy practice -- including the exact details of how he financed the purchase with no money down * The exact strategy he followed to acquire three more bankruptcy practices, also for no money down * How a simple postcard earns him more than 20 times the money he invests in a monthly mailing * Why he doesn't tell his potential clients to download a free credit report -- and what he does instead * A little-known way to avoid scaring away clients with long forms to fill out -- and how to get the information you need anyway * And a whole lot more... You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Matt Herron of The Debt Doctors at Quatrini Rafferty, a bankruptcy attorney in Pittsburgh.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
- Exactly how to retain more clients using the "minimum retainer" strategy he learned from a high-volume bankruptcy firm
- How to "turn around" clients who want a refund and get them to actually file and clear their debts
- An ingenious way to "test drive" Chapter 13 clients BEFORE they make you do 15 hours of work and then never make a payment on their plan
- The one word that he requires prospects to type into Google that helps him avoid having to "sell" prospects
- The precise search keywords he avoids when advertising on Google AdWords
- The single business practice he tweaked that lets him make money off of those complex bankruptcy cases that everybody else turns down
- How merging with a full-service law firm that didn’t do bankruptcies actually increased his bankruptcy referrals
- And a whole lot more!
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Jonathan Ginsberg, a bankruptcy attorney in Atlanta.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
● How a friend's secret phone call referrals got him started in bankruptcy ● Why you should avoid advertising on morning "drive time" radio (and when you should advertise instead)
● What makes Social Security Disability a good practice area, as well as the secret key to getting claims approved
● How you can turn worker's comp into a good referral source for bankruptcy cases (and disability cases, too) ● The real reason people file for bankruptcy (it's not "to get rid of your debt") ● Why you should consider diversifying to other practice areas, and a resource that can help you do just that ● What he learned attending expensive seminars on student loans, and the big problem he discovered about student loans as a practice area ● The #1 mistake lawyers make when trying to generate leads with Google AdWords ● The weird "angle" he took with a direct mail sales letter that actually worked ● And a whole lot more!
You can also subscribe to get an email when we release new episodes of the Bankruptcy Law Success podcast: https://forms.aweber.com/form/76/985243976.htm
I interview Errin Stowell, a bankruptcy attorney in Overland Park, Kansas.
Some of the highlights in this interview include:
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Exactly how he got 50 phone calls a week using online foreclosure notices, a one-page letter, and a Brother printer.
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How he got even more phone calls using judgment notices, his kids, and a few stamps.
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Why being consistent with his marketing helped him beat other bankruptcy lawyers to the punch.
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A way to reduce student loan balances through bankruptcy, even when income-based repayment programs set such a high standard that "it's ridiculous to try to meet it."
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Why being a solo helped him get more referrals, and prevented the embarrassing "are you my lawyer?" problem.
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How being a part-time writer helped him market his bankruptcy practice.