The Bible and Beyond: Recent Episodes
Early Christian Texts
The Bible and Beyond podcast is a series of interviews with scholars who are able to unlock mysteries from extra-canonical books, forgotten scriptures, so-called 'gnostic' gospels, as well as the Bible. Host Shirley Paulson, Ph.D., and her guests explore historical and spiritual questions about Jesus, gender, women, salvation, healing, and the meaning of life. The discoveries these scholars share don’t always fit with what we've been told, but time and again they lead us toward a deeper intimacy with Jesus.
An Interview with Dr. David Franfurter
What did people in the ancient world mean by "magic"? And why might some have viewed Jesus as a magos—a healer who used sacred words, gestures, and ritual power? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. David Frankfurter helps us move beyond modern assumptions about magic and religion. Together we explore healing, exorcism, sacred names, vowel incantations, and the ways ordinary people sought help, hope, and power in the world of early Christianity.
Dr. David Frankfurter is the William Goodwin Aurelio Chair of the Appreciation of Scripture at Boston University and one of the world's leading scholars of ancient Mediterranean religions. His research focuses on Jewish and Christian apocalyptic literature, ancient magical texts, popular religion, and religious life in Roman and late antique Egypt. Particularly known for his work on the relationship between religion, magic, violence, and cultural change, Frankfurter has helped reshape scholarly understanding of how ordinary people practiced religion in the ancient world.
He is the author of numerous influential books, including Religion in Roman Egypt, Evil Incarnate, and Christianizing Egypt, as well as editor of the landmark Guide to the Study of Ancient Magic. His award-winning scholarship has been recognized by both the American Academy of Religion and the American Society of Church History.
An Interview with Dr. Karen Winell
Is the Kingdom of God a place, a rule, a future hope—or something more? Dr. Karen Wenell challenges familiar assumptions by exploring the Kingdom as sacred space that is lived, performed, and experienced among people. Through a rich discussion of biblical texts, embodiment, ethics, and community, she offers fresh ways of understanding one of Jesus's central teachings and why it continues to matter in everyday life today.
Dr. Karen Wenell is a Senior Lecturer in New Testament and Theology in the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Birmingham, UK. Her research centers on biblical texts and their reception, particularly where texts become resources for ethical reflection and action. Of her three books, Locating the Kingdom of God: Performing Sacred Boundaries (The Library of New Testament Studies, Bloomsbury Publishing) is the focus of this Bible and Beyond podcast interview. Her most recent articles have appeared in the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion and Biblical Interpretation: A Journal of Contemporary Approaches.
A complete transcript is available on the shownotes page, https://earlychristiantexts.com/kingdom-of-god
An Interview with Dr. M. David Litwa
What did ancient Hermetic spirituality have in common with early Christianity? In this conversation, Dr. M. David Litwa introduces the Hermetica—ancient Egyptian spiritual writings centered on Hermes Trismegistus—and explores their influence on concepts such as spiritual rebirth, divine consciousness, salvation through gnosis, and humanity's relationship to the divine. Shirley Paulson and Litwa discuss why early Christians found these writings compelling and how Hermetic ideas still speak to modern seekers interested in spiritual progress, self-knowledge, and transcendence.
David Litwa, PhD, is an American scholar of ancient Mediterranean religions and early Christianity. His research examines deification in early Christian thought, the gospels in Greco-Roman literary contexts, and alternative Christian movements in the second and third centuries. Of the many books, the newest one, Heremetica I, is featured in this podcast interview. He has served as an organizer with the North American Patristics Society and a referee with the Journal of Early Christian Studies.
Find a complete transcript on the show notes page here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/hermetica
David will be presenting a live seminar on Hermetica I, Monday evenings. June 8 - August 10, 2026. Learn more and register here.
An Interview with Dr. Benjamin DeVos
This episode reexamines Simon Magus, a controversial figure from the book of Acts, and his evolving role in early Christian tradition. Moving beyond the familiar story, it explores how later texts—especially the Pseudo-Clementines—transform Simon into a complex philosophical rival to Peter. Along the way, the discussion uncovers themes of truth, rhetoric, power, and moral ambiguity, challenging simple labels of heresy and revealing a far more nuanced picture of early Christianity.
Dr. Benjamin De Vos is a researcher and teacher within the Faculty of Arts and Philosophy at Ghent University in Belgium and is affiliated with the University of Regensburg and the Beyond Canon project. His particular research interest is in the figure of Simon Magus. This involves Neoplatonic philosophy, concepts of truth, and important forms of communication, such as myth and dialogue. He is the author of a volume with Cambridge University Press, as well as several articles and book chapters and edited volumes (with Mohr Siebeck en Groningen University/Barkhuis (on Truth-dynamics in Early Christianity)).
An Interview with Rev. Dr. Bridget Mary Meehan
What is "gnosis," and does it belong within Catholic tradition? In this conversation, Rev. Dr. Bridget Mary Meehan—bishop in the Roman Catholic Womanpriests movement—shares how inner, experiential knowing of God has long shaped Christian mysticism. From the Gospel of Mary to Teresa of Ávila, she explores how forgotten voices and lived experience challenge hierarchy and renew faith, offering a vision of a more inclusive and Spirit-led church today.
Rev. Dr. Bridget Mary Meehan is a bishop in the Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests (ARCWP) and a prophetic leader in the global movement for women's equality in the Church. She is also a certified minister in the Federation of Christian Ministries, co-founder of People's Catholic Seminary, and Dean of the Masters in Divinity and Doctor of Ministry programs at Global Ministries University. She was ordained in 2006 as one of the first eight Roman Catholic Women Priests in the U.S., and in 2024, she ordained three deacons and three priests at the historic "Ordination on the Tiber" in Rome, a landmark public witness for women's ordination.
Printed transcript is available on the show notes page: https://earlychristiantexts.com/gnosis-womanpriest-inner-awakening/
An Interview with Shawna Dolansky
Historian Shawna Dolansky invites listeners to rethink the story of Eve in Genesis. Rather than a villain responsible for humanity's fall, Eve may be the story's protagonist—reasoning, choosing, and moving history forward. Dolansky explores how ancient readers understood the Eden story, how later interpreters—from Ben Sira to Augustine and Milton—reshaped it, and why recovering the story's ancient Near Eastern context can change how we understand Genesis today.
Professor Shawna Dolansky is an historian who specializes in the emergence of the Hebrew Bible within its ancient Near Eastern context. Her work cuts across disciplinary boundaries of religious studies, literature, history, anthropology, and archaeology. Current research interests include a study of the history of Adam and Eve in popular culture and re-thinking the figure of Jezebel in the Hebrew Bible in light of historical and archaeological considerations. Both interests are part of a larger digital humanities graphic history project, "Women of the Ancient World," which is coming soon to woawhistory.com.
Dr. Dolansky will be presenting during the upcoming virtual conference "New Insights into the Hebrew Bible (NIHB)" offered by Bart Ehrman. NIHB is a three-day virtual conference (March 20-22, 2026) for people interested in serious biblical scholarship. The conference brings together leading experts to present focused, insightful talks on Genesis. Registration is open now. Click here for registration and more information.
An interview with Nathan Houstin
Nathan Houstin discusses the often-overlooked role of Joseph as the father of Jesus based on his reading of the New Testament, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Philip (which depicts Joseph as the carpenter of the cross!). Taken together, these texts illuminate Joseph's portrayal and significance in the context of Jesus' dual parentage. They highlight theological implications, the nature of fatherhood, and how these concepts resonate in contemporary understandings of family.
Nathan Houstin is a doctoral student in New Testament and Early Christianity at Loyola University Chicago. He holds a Master of Divinity from the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago. Prior to his theological studies, Nathan worked in healthcare as a respiratory care practitioner, and he continues to practice this profession beside his doctoral work. His scholarly interests range from gender studies, health and medicine in Antiquity to infancy gospels and Nag Hammadi texts.
In this Bible and Beyond podcast episode, Shirley Paulson interviews Dr. Karen L. King, a prominent scholar of the early text, the Gospel of Mary. In this podcast, Shirley and Karen explore the portrayal of Mary Magdalene as a leader and the implications for women's roles in early Christianity. They also discuss themes of identity, the nature of sin, the journey of the soul, and the concept of the good in relation to ethical living. Dr. King's insights highlight the relevance of the ancient teachings in contemporary spiritual and social contexts.
Dr. Karen L. King is the Hollis Research Professor of Divinity, Harvard University's oldest endowed professorship (1721), and is the first woman to hold this chair. Her particular interests are in discourses of difference (orthodoxy and heresy), gender studies, and religion and violence. She completed her Ph.D. in History of Religions: Early Christianity at Brown University. She also studied in Berlin at the Free University (West) and with the Koptisch-Gnostische Arbeitskreis (Coptic-Gnostic Working Group) at Humboldt University (East). She has received numerous awards for excellence in teaching and research.
A written transcript is available on the show notes page here:
https://earlychristiantexts.com/karen-king-mary-magdalene
An Interview with Dr. Meredith J. C. Warren
How did anti-Jewish interpretations become embedded in readings of the New Testament? In this Bible and Beyond Podcast episode, Shirley Paulson speaks with biblical scholar Meredith Warren about "Judeophobia"—its historical context and the responsibility of modern Bible readers. Drawing on her new co-edited volume, Judeophobia and the New Testament, Warren explores how later interpretations distorted ancient texts—and how reading critically and kindly can help prevent harm today.
Dr. Meredith J. C. Warren is a Senior Lecturer in Biblical and Religious Studies at the University of Sheffield, editor-in-chief of The Journal of Interdisciplinary Biblical Studies, and author of several other insightful works. She is known for her views on the New Testament and early Judaism, and has been featured by media outlets including The Washington Post and BBC radio. This podcast interview highlights the book she co-authored with Eric Vanden Eykel and Sarah Rollens.
A transcript is available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/anti-jewish-readings-distort-new-testament/
An Interview with Dr. Ward Sanford
Dr. Ward Sanford recounts the dramatic history of the ancient Romans' destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. His historical novel weaves fictional characters into well-researched events, bringing the story alive for modern readers. The full arc, from 63 CE to 70 CE, unfolds across four books. In this interview, he focuses on the forces at play in the first volume, covering 63 to 66 CE, when tensions between Rome and Jerusalem began to erupt.
Before becoming a novelist, Dr. Ward Sanford enjoyed a 35-year career as a highly respected scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS). Now he brings the same intellectual rigor and curiosity to his research and writing. He is passionate about helping believers see the historical and cultural context of first century Judea in which the earliest Christian church struggled to survive. Dr. Sanford has also been a Christian counselor for the past 13 years.
The Cry for Jerusalem series discussed in this podcast explores the spiritual tensions, political chaos, and prophetic significance of a nation on the brink, as seen through Josephus's eyes. Ward has also written dozens of highly popular blogs concerning the subject matter of first century Judea and related Christian apologetics.
A complete transcript is available on the Bible and Beyond website.
An Interview with Dr. Tobias Nicklas
Professor Tobias Nicklas explores the surprising world of Christian Apocrypha — stories and traditions that continued shaping faith far beyond the biblical canon. From the Infancy Gospel of Thomas to the Acts of John and the Acts of Paul and Thecla, these writings raise profound questions about Jesus's humanity and childhood, a suffering God, and the role of women and imagination in early Christianity. Their influence, Nicklas shows, still colors Christian memory and art today.
Professor Tobias Nicklas studied Theology and Mathematics at Universität Regensburg, Germany, and he did his doctorate on the "Jews in the Gospel of John." His German post-doc focused on Christian Apocrypha including the Unknown Gospel on Papyrus Egerton 2, one of the most ancient witnesses of early Christianity. He has been teaching at the Universität Regensburg since 2007. In 2018 he—and colleagues—founded the Centre for Advanced Studies "Beyond Canon" at the same University. Tobias has authored several monographs, including The Canon and Beyond (Tübingen, 2024) and the book we discuss in the podcast, Reading Christian Apocrypha with Janet E. Spittler (Minneapolis, 2025).
A complete transcript is available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/beyond-the-canon/
Heresies, Power, and the Forgotten Voices of Early Christianity An Interview with Dr. Bart Ehrman
Shirley Paulson talks with Bart Ehrman about his new course on early Christian heresies. Together they explore why "right belief" became a matter of life and death, how women and household voices were often silenced, and what these early debates reveal about power, diversity, and faith. Christianity is the only religion to have evolved on a foundation of right and wrong belief. Their conversation touches on Christianity's complex origins—and why those ancient arguments still matter today.
Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar renowned for his work on textual criticism, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early Christianity. One of his frequent themes is on the early Christian doctrinal battles, showing how orthodoxy and heresy shaped contemporary traditions. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, in the Department of Religious Studies and has authored over 30 books, but he is also a public scholar and reaches a broad audience beyond academia.
A complete transcript is available on Early Christian Texts, https://earlychristiantexts.com/heresies-bart-ehrman/
An Interview with The Reverend Benjamin Wyatt
This year marks the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea, a turning point in Christian history. In this episode, Rev. Benjamin Wyatt, Episcopal priest and author of Christ and the Council, joins Shirley Paulson to explore the controversies that led to the Nicene Creed, Constantine’s role in enforcing unity, and why debates about Christ’s divinity mattered so deeply. Their conversation sheds light on the messy, human realities behind doctrines still shaping Christianity today.
The Reverend Benjamin Wyatt is an Episcopal priest, serving as the Priest-in-Charge at the Church of the Nativity in Indianapolis. He has run two podcasts on ancient Christianity, “The Road to Nicaea” and “In Simeon's Wake.” Just in time for Nicaea's 1700th anniversary celebration, Ben’s new book, titled Christ and the Council, published by Wipf and Stock, is forthcoming. He holds an M.Div. and S.T.M. from Yale Divinity School.
Visit the podcast show notes page on the Early Christian Texts website for a complete transcript. https://earlychristiantexts.com/council-of-nicaea/
An Interview with Dr. Nina Livesey
After Livesey demonstrated that authenticity of the Pauline letters was inadequately and uncritically determined, she didn’t think it was possible to make a good case that the letters were authentic, even though it's so commonly assumed that they are. Once she had gone through all of that, she looked for evidence of Pauline letters. The first ones appear in the mid-second century, from the school of Marcion! Livesey was not the first to make that discovery.
Dr. Nina Livesey a professor emerita of religious studies at the Oklahoma University College of Professional and Continuing Studies. In addition to her specialization in Pauline letters, she’s interested in a variety of aspects of Christian emergence. She was one of the co-chairs of Westar's the recently concluded Christianity Seminar Phase II. Nina has also written three significant monographs. We discuss her newly published book, The Letters of Paul in their Roman Literary Context: Reassessing Apostolic Authorship in this podcast interview.
A complete transcript is available on the Bible and Beyond website here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/possible-paul-didnt-write-letters/
An Interview with Dr. Perry Kea
When the young teen, Thecla, heard Paul’s preaching about a new kind of life following Christ, she became infatuated with both the message and the messenger. Abandoning her fiancé and her Roman aristocratic life style, she faced two death threats, discovered her own strength and worth, and matured in her appreciation for both Paul and his teachings. She bought into the ascetic way of life and insisted on her rights as a woman with authority.
Dr. Perry Kea has been an active Scholar of the Westar Institute since 1987. He served as the Chair of its Board of Directors from 2014 – 2019. He co-Chaired Westar’s Mini-seminar on the Bible and Human Sexuality and has participated in several other seminars, notably the Jesus Seminar, the Acts Seminar, and the two Christianity Seminars. He also contributes to Westar publications and Westar programming. Perry is Associate Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at the University of Indianapolis, Indiana, where he taught for 35 years.
A transcript is available at https://earlychristiantexts.com/theclas-challenge-early-christian-world.
The Complicated Lives of Enslaved Women of the Bible An Interview with Dr. Christy Cobb
Bible readers tend to skip over the stories of enslaved people because they seem to be treated as props for the ‘real’ meaning or main message of the biblical account. But a closer look at the lives of these marginalized enslaved people in the stories—such as sex workers who were might have been sold to brothels against their will—enriches our understanding of the Bible. Recognizing the invisible attitudes and forces help us rethink the stories’ meanings.
Dr. Christy Cobb is an Assistant Professor of Christianity in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Denver, and she is also an Affiliated Faculty in the Gender/Women's Studies Department. She is a biblical scholar with a focus on the New Testament and early Christian texts, and her scholarship and teaching focuses on issues of slavery, gender, and sexuality in antiquity, and she writes on texts such as Acts, the Gospels, the Apocryphal Acts, and other ancient narratives.
Full transcript available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/enslaved-bible-women/
Part 2 of our interview with Matthew Goff and Dylan Burns continues the discussion we started in Part 1 about the relationship between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library. Goff and Burns explain the significant differences between the two, such as their different dates and locations of origin. But they also explore the similarities, with their mutual interest in more ancient writings, such as how some important figures from Genesis—such as the Book of Watchers, with its myths of evil origins— came from Enoch; and how Melchizedek was the priest associated with the Christ figure.
This is part two of a two-part series. The first episode in the series was released May 7, 2025.
Read the book they co-authored, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Codices. It's open source, so it's available for free!
Dr. Dylan M. Burns is Assistant Professor of the History of Esotericism in Late Antiquity at the University of Amsterdam. He earned his doctorate in Ancient Christianity at Yale University in 2011, before holding research positions in Copenhagen, Leipzig, and Berlin. Among his books are Apocalypse of the Alien God: Platonism and the Exile of Sethian Gnosticism (2014), Did God Care? Providence, Dualism, and Will in Later Greek and Early Christian Philosophy (2020), and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Codices (2022).
Dr. Matthew Goff joined the faculty of Florida State's Religion Department in 2005. He completed an M.T.S degree in 1997 at Harvard Divinity School and finished his Ph.D. at the University of Chicago in 2002. He studied under John Collins and wrote his dissertation on a Qumran text entitled 4QInstruction. His publications focus on the Dead Sea Scrolls and ancient Judaism, and his most recent book is The Apocrypha: A Guide (Oxford, 2024). His current book project is on demons and monsters in ancient Judaism and early Christianity.
Is There a Connection Between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library? An Interview with Dr. Matthew Goff and Dr. Dylan Burns (Part 1)
Professors Matthew Goff and Dylan Burns realized there were some surprising commonalities between the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi Library. Traditionally, these ancient writings are studied separately, despite their modern discoveries around the same time and relatively close locations. With Dr. Goff’s expertise in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Dr. Burns’ expertise in the Nag Hammadi Library, they could describe why both are so important for an understanding of the evolution of Judeo-Christian religions.
This is part one of a two-part series. The second episode in the series will be released on June 4, 2025.
Read the book they co-authored, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Codices. It's open source, so it's available for free!
Dr. Dylan M. Burns is Assistant Professor of the History of Esotericism in Late Antiquity at the University of Amsterdam. He earned his doctorate in Ancient Christianity at Yale University in 2011, before holding research positions in Copenhagen, Leipzig, and Berlin. Among his books are Apocalypse of the Alien God: Platonism and the Exile of Sethian Gnosticism (2014), Did God Care? Providence, Dualism, and Will in Later Greek and Early Christian Philosophy (2020), and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Codices (2022).
Dr. Matthew Goff joined the faculty of Florida State's Religion Department in 2005. He completed an M.T.S degree in 1997 at Harvard Divinity School and finished his Ph.D. at the University of Chicago in 2002. He studied under John Collins and wrote his dissertation on a Qumran text entitled 4QInstruction. His publications focus on the Dead Sea Scrolls and ancient Judaism, and his most recent book is The Apocrypha: A Guide (Oxford, 2024). His current book project is on demons and monsters in ancient Judaism and early Christianity.
A written transcript is available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/dead-sea-scrolls-and-nag-hammadi-library/.
An interview with Dr. Kimberley Fowler
Dr. Kimberley Fowler explains the Gospel of Philip, one of the lesser known texts from the Nag Hammadi collection. She loves it and finds it “charmingly and remarkably weird,” even though is it does not stray too far from orthodox Christian theology. Although it includes a brief reference to Jesus kissing Mary, that kiss seems to be only one of the many ritual Christian practices explained in the rather randomly organized gospel.
Kimberley Fowler is Assistant Professor of New Testament at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands. Her research incorporates a range of topics in early Christianity, most especially the Coptic texts of the Nag Hammadi Codices, where she has focused on the production and reception context of the manuscripts and what this reveals about diverse early Christian reading practices. She has also worked on the manuscripts of the New Testament and is co-leading a project on an important copy of Paul's letters and its annotation system. Kimberley is currently writing a monograph on the Gospel of Philip for Cambridge University Press, as well as a short volume on the Nag Hammadi Codices for Cambridge's Elements in Early Christianity series.
Complete transcript available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/gospel-of-philip/
An Interview with Dr. Meredith J. C. Warren
We asked Dr. Meredith J. C. Warren to describe how Jesus’s family and followers would have practiced their religion. They were probably a typical Jewish family, where the types of houses and everyday life were all intertwined with religious practices. She claims that both Jesus and his mother were probably less unusual than we have been taught to think, especially in everyday life—except that Jesus was probably more radical in his commitment to Torah teachings.
Dr. Meredith J. C. Warren is a Senior Lecturer in Biblical and Religious Studies at the University of Sheffield, in England, where she is director of the Sheffield Centre for Interdisciplinary Biblical Studies and is editor in chief of its journal, The Journal of Interdisciplinary Biblical Studies. She is also an associate editor for the Enoch Seminar Online Reviews.
Her publications include several books and articles, and they cover topics such as gender, anti-Judaism, feminism, the senses, and clothing for early Judaism and early Christianity. Her co-authorship of Jewish and Christian Women in the Ancient Mediterranean provides the basis of this podcast interview.
In addition to this interview on the Bible and Beyond Podcast, Warren has given interviews on BBC Radio, NPR, and The Guardian.
A transcript of this interview is available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/jesus-practice-religion/.
What is the Nag Hammadi Library? An Interview with Dr. Dylan Burns
Dr. Dylan Burns, a leading scholar on the “Nag Hammadi Library” and related texts, describes the significance of the 1945 archaeological discovery in Nag Hammadi, Egypt. It is not only of great importance for a better understanding of Christian origins, but many of the texts also reveal a great beauty and probing inquiry into the meaning of the divine in human experience. Their great diversity and welcome for women leadership were among the greatest surprises.
Dr. Dylan M. Burns is Assistant Professor of the History of Esotericism in Late Antiquity at the University of Amsterdam. He earned his doctorate in Ancient Christianity at Yale University in 2011, before holding research positions in Copenhagen, Leipzig, and Berlin. Among his books are Apocalypse of the Alien God: Platonism and the Exile of Sethian Gnosticism (2014), Did God Care? Providence, Dualism, and Will in Later Greek and Early Christian Philosophy (2020), and The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Codices (2022).
Transcript available on the Early Christian Texts website: https://earlychristiantexts.com/what-is-the-nag-hammadi-library/
An Interview with Dr. David Galston
Some obvious differences between Plato and Jesus would include the fact that Plato preceded Jesus by three and a half centuries. Jesus was a Jewish teacher; Plato was a Greek philosopher. Plato taught with dialogues; Jesus taught with parables. But they are both figures of wisdom. Both styles are placed in everyday life, and yet both teachers encourage their students to exercise critical thinking and to discover reality beyond the obvious.
David Galston is the CEO Executive Director of the Westar Institute, which defines itself as “pursuing honest and rigorous inquiry on the origins and cultural implications of the Christian tradition through critical, collaborative, and cumulative scholarship.” Galston is a theologian and has authored three books: Archives and the Event of God (McGill-Queens Press, 2010), Embracing the Human Jesus (Polebridge Press, 2012), and God’s Human Future (Polebridge Press, 2016).
A transcript is available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/jesus-and-plato/
An Interview with Dr. Andrew Crislip
Ancient concepts of bodily functions differ so radically from modernity, we need a basic overview of these beliefs in order to understand both early Christian and non-Christian healing methods. Two competing concepts were viewed as causes for disease: an imbalance of ‘humors’ in the body and an ‘invasion’ of the normally healthy body. Jesus’s approach was addressing invasions, such as demons. By the second-century, thinkers had expanded the idea of illness to a broader sense of evil.
Dr. Crislip is Professor of History and Blake Chair in the History of Christianity at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia, where he has taught since 2008. He has written and co-authored numerous books, book sections, and peer-reviewed articles on the subject of health care in antiquity. His articles have appeared in such journals as Interpretation, Harvard Theological Review, Biblica, the Journal of the Bible and Its Reception, and Vigiliae Christianae. Professor Crislip’s current work focuses on Egyptian monasticism, ancient healing traditions, and the history of emotions. He has taught also at the University of Helsinki, Union Presbyterian Seminary, the University of Hawaii at Manoa, and Yale University. He earned his PhD from Yale.
A transcript is available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/healing-in-antiquity/.
An interview with Dr. Samuel Zinner
Dr. Samuel Zinner describes the ancient Apocryphon (or Secret Book) of James, then, focusing on two common elements in so-called ‘gnosticism’—the meaning of the demiurge and ascending—he shows how this text does not neatly fit any category. It includes no reference to demiurge, but it does involve a lengthy and unusual description of Jesus, Peter, and James all ascending. Inclusion in the Nag Hammadi collection does not necessarily define something as ‘gnostic,’ as this text illustrates.
Zinner is an award-winning author and scholar of Holocaust studies, ecumenism, modern and ancient languages, literature and history, and has been published internationally in a variety of languages by Oxford University Press, de Gruyter, and others. He has contributed articles to Religions Journal and served as peer review referee for several academic journals. He is also a documentary script writer, having worked with Jean-Claude Bragard, the creator of award-winning programs for the BBC. Zinner has collaborated with eminent scholars on the Dead Sea Scrolls and Hebrew scriptures. He's currently an editor for the forthcoming Origins and Applications of Language and Number with contributions from several eminent scholars, and he presents at conferences such as "The Bible and the Qur’an: Comparative Studies” at the Shahid Beshita University in Tehran.
His current book that we discuss in this podcast interview is The Apocryphon of James (NHC 1,2), a scholarly work on the text more popularly known as the Secret Book of James.
An Interview with Dr. Amy Jill Levine
Amy-Jill Levine, a distinguished New Testament scholar, provides examples of Christian commentators making Jewish practices and beliefs look bad in order to make Jesus look good. A more realistic understanding of these Jewish practices helps us understand Jesus better and understand Judaism more respectfully. Examples of these Jewish beliefs and practices include feminist perspectives, being identified as the Chosen Ones, and stereotypical attitudes about wealth and purity laws.
Professor Amy-Jill Levine is the Rabbi Stanley M. Kessler, Distinguished Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies at Hartford International University for Religion and Peace and University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies America at Vanderbilt. And before that, the Sarah Lawrence Lightfoot Associate Professor of Religion at Swarthmore College. Having grown up in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood and being raised in a Jewish home lays the foundation for her life-long interest in Jewish-Christian relations.
An Interview with John Dominic Crossan
Crossan draws on Paul’s life and experience as a devoted Pharisee to understand his insights and expectations for the meaning of resurrection. Unlike the well-known ancient belief in ascension, which was reserved for the near-Godlike humans, Pharisees believed in resurrection for everyone. This was based on a faith in the end time. Paul’s revelation about the resurrection was his realization that Jesus – as Messiah – had begun the general resurrection! He was the first to see Jesus this way.
An Interview with Dr. April DeConick
April DeConick theorizes about how gnostic ideas that emerged as a concept in antiquity keep reproducing themselves within different environments. This is one of the things that propelled religion toward its therapeutic aspect and individual relations to God. It came about during the desperate time of harsh Roman occupation, when people felt let down by their gods. Looking for some divine justice, they imagined a new kind of relationship to God, as children of God.
Dr. April DeConick holds the Isla Carroll and Percy E. Turner Professorship in New Testament and Early Christianity at Rice University, Department of Religion. She founded and chaired the Mysticism, Esotericism and Gnosticism group and chaired the Nag Hammadi and Gnosticism group in the Society of Biblical Literature. She is most noted for her writing on the Gospel of Judas when she challenged sensationalism generated by the National Geographic Society that wrongly claimed that Judas is a gnostic hero in this text and that his heroics would rewrite our understanding of early Christianity. Her most recent book, The Gnostic New Age, won an award from the Figure Foundation for the best book published by an university press in philosophy and religion.
April is the co-founder and executive editor of the academic journal, Gnosis: Journal of Gnostic Studies. The article discussed in this podcast is from this journal and is titled "The Gnostic Imagination and Its Imaginaries." Gnosis 8 (2023) 133-166.
Transcript available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/gnostic-ideas/
An Interview with Dr. Kimberly Bauser McBrien
Kimberly Bauser McBrien finds the Secret Book of James to be a humorous critique on the idea of apostolic authority. From our 21st-century perspective, it is difficult to decipher the difference between a weird or absurd tale from a clever parody on a serious subject. She argues that this late second century author is taking shots at his contemporaries who gave weight to apostolic credentials through false claims of unity or the experience of temporary ascending.
Dr. Kimberly Bauser McBrien is a Lecturer at Trinity University, teaching various courses in New Testament and Early Christian History. Her PhD from Boston College was on social memory theory and the way it helps us understand how the sayings of Jesus were preserved and produced. This podcast is a discussion of her new article in the Journal of Early Christian Studies, titled “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Third Heaven: Reading the Secret Book of James (NHC I, 2) with a Parodic Imagination,” (Summer 2024 edition).
Transcript available here: https://earlychristiantexts.com/apostolic-authority/
An Interview with Dr. Erin Galgay Walsh
Macrina was born into a wealthy and historically important Christian family. Her virtuous life, devoted to Christ, was based on her ascetic ideals. That is, she rejected human pleasures and comforts in order to free herself to be fully present to Christ. The 4th century text, The Life of Macrina, which was written by her brother Gregory, describes her as a woman living the angelic life, the" life of the resurrected body."
Professor Erin Galgay Walsh teaches at the University of Chicago Divinity School and is a scholar of ancient and late antique Christianity. Her research includes a focus on biblical interpretation, asceticism, and gender. Her courses cover biblical and apocryphal literature, the history of biblical interpretation, embodied practices, and Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity.
Find a full transcript on https://earlychristiantexts.com/macrina/
An Interview with Dr. Tony Burke
If the Secret Gospel of Mark turns out to be authentic, it could provide important insights into early Christian thought and practices. Popular theory claims it is mere forgery, however, created and circulated due to pro-homosexual motives. Professor Tony Burke explains the origin of the text, its content, the basis for the doubt, and the reasons for his own support of the theory of authenticity. He sees a more mystical interpretation than an erotic one.
Dr. Tony Burke is a Professor in the Department of the Humanities at York University in Toronto, where he focuses on the study of Christian biographical literature of the second century, children and the family in Roman antiquity, and extracanonical Jewish and Christian writings. His special interest is the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and hs book, The Infancy Gospel of Thomas in the Syriac Tradition won the 2018 Frank W. Beare Award for outstanding book in the area of Christian Origins.
Tony is the co-founder of the North American Society for the Study of Christian Apocryphal Literature (NASSCAL), and he is editor of Volumes 1, 2, and 3 of the series New Testament Apocrypha: More Noncanonical Scriptures. It is a collection of little-known and never-before-published texts in English translation.
Look for a complete summary of the podcast on the Early Christian Texts website. https://earlychristiantexts.com/secret-gospel-mark-real-or-forgery/
An Interview with Dr. David Brakke
David Brakke challenges the common notion that Christians had a New Testament type of Bible by around 200. Rather, he claims, their Bible was Jewish scriptures plus a wide variety of written texts by Jesus followers used in multiple contexts. Marcion and his followers would have been the exception, since he rejected the Jewish writings. Brakke’s recent analysis of two ancient Christian texts concludes that the early Christian years were diverse and served different purposes before the biblical canon was established.
Irenaeus, the Church Father of the second century, probably set the tone for an approval or disapproval of certain texts. He thought various texts should reflect the rule of faith for that time, and this would have excluded such texts as Valentinian – or so-called gnostic types of writing. On the other hand, Irenaeus was also aware of 'barbarian Christians' who had no text at all. That didn't seem to concern him.
Brakke summarizes from his study of the two second-century texts—the Muratorian Fragment and the Secret Book of James—that Christians were very different in antiquity. In 200, people were not interested in asking for a New Testament. They sort of agree on some ancient writings which were very useful, but others not at all.
An interview with Dr. Sarah Parkhouse
Dr. Sarah Parkhouse has made a discovery that is quite noteworthy for anyone interested in the Gospel of Mary. One of the hundreds, if not thousands, of small fragments of papyri found in the garbage dump Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, just might be a missing part of the Gospel of Mary. The fragment includes a description of baptism, which is closely related to the ascent of the soul in the portions of the gospel we already have.
An interview with Dr. David Litwa
The strange story of Simon in the Bible illustrates the uncomfortable truth that Christianity seems to reinvent itself when it defines itself in opposition to its perceived enemies.
In this biblical account, Simon (later called Simon Magus) appears to have been repenting properly from his mistake of offering to pay for the spiritual instructions, when Peter lashed out at him harshly. Litwa thinks the Acts of the Apostles was written many decades after the struggle between Simon of Samaria and Peter, and the author of Acts appears to have used a document known as “Simon and the Great Declaration,” for a source.
This earlier Simonian document, written by Simon’s followers, refers to him as Simon Christ, concurring with Simon’s own declaration of his equality with Christ. Such a move would have put him in direct competition with Peter and in opposition to the objectives of the author of Acts to position Peter as the head of the Christian movement.
An Interview with John Dominic Crossan
John Dominic Crossan draws on his own Irish life experiences to create an image of Jesus living in an empire dominating the Jewish world of Jesus. The Roman Empire might have been perceived as “the world of civilization,” accomplishing great power and wealth. But this success came at the expense of its conquered nations. Jesus’s nonviolent opposition to Rome originated in his perception of Sabbath creation of Genesis 1, in other words, the divine means of distributive justice.
An Interview with Rabbi Evan Moffic
Rabbi Evan Moffic, senior rabbi at a vibrant Reform Jewish congregation in northern Illinois, thinks Christians can understand Jesus’s words and works better – and Jews and Christians can understand each other better -- by considering the Jewish world of Jesus more fully. In this podcast interview, he explains Jesus’s relationship to his students, why Jesus himself was not apocalyptic, the Jewish origin of his ‘Lord’s Prayer,’ and the spiritual purpose behind his miracle acts and healings.
An interview with Dr. Susan M. (Elli) Elliott In answer to a listener’s question about how attitudes toward singleness evolved in Christianity, Dr. Elliott draws on her knowledge of family legislation that Caesar Augustus inflicted on the Romans well before Jesus’s ministry. Followers of Jesus often followed the common but conflicting Roman attitudes toward elite and lower-class women. But early on, they also assumed a counter-cultural position against the notion that spouses were disposable.
An interview with Dr. Deborah Saxon. Martyrdom in antiquity was often a painful choice. The dual powers of religion and politics made those decisions complex, but also caused a search for identity. Christians had to determine whether they would live under Roman systems, by Christian faithfulness, or by imagining a reward with Christ after martyrdom. Disagreements arose between advocates for martyrdom and those who opposed its glorification. Our modern reading of the ancient writings should take these differences into account.
An interview with Dr. James McGrath
Professor James McGrath explains why you should read ancient texts outside the Bible. A knowledge of apocryphal and other noncanonical texts give more background to biblical writings. The meaning of canon itself becomes clearer in the context of the many cousin-like texts that relate to the biblical writings. McGrath demonstrates this with an exploration of the books of Enoch, the history of the Maccabeans, the widespread beliefs in demons or unclean spirits, angels, the meaning of hell (Gehenna), and other topics.
An Interview with Dr. Jeremiah Coogan
Dr. Jeremiah Coogan, a scholar of ancient manuscripts, explains the significance of the recent discovery of an ancient palimpsest. That’s an ancient writing found underneath other writing that had covered it. The object we’re discussing contains the Old Syriac translation fragment of the gospel of Matthew, and it gives us a window into what the text of some Greek copy of Matthew would have looked like in the late second century. Coogan also discusses his work with gospel prefaces.
An interview with Dr. Jason BeDuhn.
Dr. Jason BeDuhn, an expert on Manichaeism, takes us into the ancient world where Mani was a leader of early Jesus followers in the East, before the fourth century Council of Nicea. He paints an intriguing picture of Mani’s interpretation of Jesus’s teachings and how Christianity might have been different if he hadn’t lost the competition with other leaders from the West. Mani’s followers saw his willingness to sacrifice for others parallel to Jesus’s martyrdom.
D. An Interview with Dr. Joseph Bessler.
Dr. Joseph Bessler challenges and delights us with his suggestions that learning what we can about the historical Jesus contributes to the betterment of society. The surprise of the past few decades has been the revelation that our traditional teaching of Jesus has been used to silence the voices of any ‘other.’ Certain texts reinforce certain theologies. But the loving gesture of listening to others brings to our attention surprising texts we have not noticed before.
An interview with Dr. Arthur J. Dewey
Arthur Dewey explains how the “blood curse,” based on Jesus’s trial before Pilate, has been taken out of context and turned into a false basis for blaming Jews as a whole for the death of God. The “trial” in the Gospel of Matthew (which could not have taken place historically) was based on Mark’s original critique against the leaders of the Jews. This was another one of many squabbles among different Jewish factions.
An interview with Dr. B. Brandon Scott
Dr. Brandon Scott explains the complicated history of resurrection. It was not an Easter celebration during biblical times, but the hope of God’s restoration of things was handed down from Daniel and the Maccabees. Sacrifice was widespread in the ancient world, not because of sins, but as an act intended to realign the world with God. Writing of Jesus’s death come from a conviction that his death was not defeat but that God made him alive.
Bernard Brandon Scott is the Darbeth Distinguished Professor of New Testament Emeritus, Phillips Theological Seminary, Tulsa. He is a charter member of the Jesus Seminar and co-chaired Westar’s Christianity 1 Seminar. Scott is the author and editor of many books, including The Real Paul: Recovering His Radical Challenge, The Trouble with Resurrection, Hear then the Parable, and Re-imagine the World: An Introduction to the Parables.
Early Christian Texts is celebrating the 50th episode of our Bible and Beyond Podcast! We have collected snippets from ten episodes featuring several of our interviews since the podcast first aired in 2019. All fifty episodes have been quite unique and fascinating, but these ten excerpts exemplify the depth and breadth of the topics we covered — from why anyone should even look at extracanonical writings to the meaning of Jesus’ passion.
This month Shirley interviews Perry Kea, an expert scholar on the Book of Acts. Dr. Kea explains why the objectives of the author of the Book of Acts differ from simple historical documentation. The letters of Paul provide an excellent example of such differences and illustrate why the objective of the Book of Acts is inconsistent with historical facts. Stories in Acts were a means of using resources to address other questions, such as the source of authority for the new Christian movement.
An interview with Dr. Eric Vanden Eykel
'The Magi' of antiquity were usually religious professionals who were almost always associated with people in power, such as kings. But they were not kings themselves. Therefore Dr. Eric Vanden Eykel thinks the author of the Gospel of Matthew uses the characters of 'the magi' (instead of the shepherds who appear in the Gospel of Luke) to make a political point about the kingly identity of Jesus. A close reading of the details about the star and the gifts in Matthew also supports the political message.
An interview with Elizabeth Schrader Polczer
Elizabeth Schrader Polczer claims that there has always been controversy over Mary Magdalene’s name and birthplace. She argues that Mary Magdalene was probably not from Magdala. So the name we use to refer to her should be ‘Mary Magdalene’ and not ‘Mary of Magdala’ for both historical reasons and the fact that Mary appears in better light if she came from Bethany instead of Magdala. However, Polzcer discusses the conflicting evidence from antiquity and concludes that acknowledging multiple legitimate interpretations is probably the best way to honor her memory.
An interview with Rev. Kyndall Rae Rothaus
Kyndall Rae Rothaus, a popular young female minister, tackles the ancient Mary Magdalene smear campaign as an example of the damage which can be done by mistaken assumptions. To her, it’s yet another example of the way people discredit strong women, both in the past and today. She believes that unraveling the Mary Magdalene smear campaign can help all people discover the divine feminine within.
An interview with Rev. Kyndall Rae Rothaus
Kyndall Rae Rothaus, a popular young female minister, tackles the ancient Mary Magdalene smear campaign as an example of the damage which can be done by mistaken assumptions. To her, it’s yet another example of the way people discredit strong women, both in the past and today. She believes that unraveling the Mary Magdalene smear campaign can help all people discover the divine feminine within.
Scholar Jae Han describes the ancient Manichaean Christian religion as an outsider in the minds of Roman western Christians because it originated in Persia. Manichaeans considered themselves Christian, but heresiologists called them “Manichaeans.” In the same vein, Manichaeans called Catholic Christians “Jews.” From a Western perspective, if any religion originated in the East, it can’t be truly Christian. It was unnatural for Westerners (Romans) to consider a religion Christian if it originated in the East.
An interview with Eric C. Smith, PhD
Eric C. Smith, a scholar of biblical studies, uses an ancient gold glass as an example of why we should expand our concepts of what we call ‘biblical.’ The Bible itself is an “assemblage” of people, history, geography, and oral traditions that contributed to the creation of some portion of the Bible. Objects of art depicting similar stories and events are also assemblages, in that the stories may have come from the same or similar sources.
An interview with Nicola Denzey Lewis
Nicola Denzey Lewis helps crack the code on perplexing questions about so-called ‘Gnosticism.’ Where is it from? What is it about? Why the secrets? Her own story about how she got involved explains why it is appealing to some and unnerving to others. She explains why it was such an important part of the development of Christianity in the second century and how it wrestled with major philosophical questions related to creation and the meaning of evil.
A conversation between Dr. Shirley Paulson and Dr. Arthur Dewey
When books like the Secret Revelation of John are not in the biblical canon, questions arise concerning their worth. The conversation between Shirley Paulson and Arthur Dewey includes reasons for the Secret Revelation of John’s extracanonical status as well as its intrinsic worth. They also discuss its unusual treatment of the Hebrew text, Genesis, its adaptation to the context of Platonism in Alexandria, Egypt, and how these connections serve the greater purpose of developing insights.
In this interview with Dr. David Brakke, he discusses his new translation and commentary on the Gospel of Judas. The basic message is that Jesus is explaining to Judas why his own terrible sacrifice is necessary for God to set the universe right. In doing so, the author of the gospel is critiquing his contemporary Jesus-followers for their ritual practices of sacrifice. Such sacrifices distort the true relationship between the human (dying mortals) and spiritual (non-dying) part of one’s being.
An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Barry
The dramatic story of Bishop John Chrysostom’s two exiles and subsequent death (in the 4th century) is tangled up with the Empress Eudoxia and her miscarriages. It was known that diseases spread the same way internal corruption spreads through communities rather quickly, so uncertainty of not knowing who is heretical and who has a disease made the easy association between heresy and disease. Therefore Eudoxia’s suffering and death became the scapegoat for Chrysostom’s theological missteps.
An Interview with Dr. Deborah Niederer Saxon
The story of Paul and Thecla, well-known in antiquity, indicates a diversity of viewpoints about women’s roles in the early Christian years. Her resistance to the cultural norm fits with the popular attitude among Christians toward dying the “noble death,—referring to those who stood firm upon their moral principles to the end. But Thecla’s willingness to die, as well as her victory over her oppressors, differs from the message of submissiveness.
Dr. Brandon Scott interviews Dr. Shirley Paulson–the host of the Bible and Beyond podcast—about authoring a difficult chapter, “Jesus by Many Other Names,” in the new book, After Jesus Before Christianity: A Historical Exploration of the First Two Centuries of Jesus Movements. Paulson speaks of her love for the noncanonical texts of the second century, and explains how they illuminate one’s understanding of Jesus, the Bible itself, and the debate over 'Gnosticism.'
Shirley Paulson has a Master of Theological Studies from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary, and a PhD in Religion and Theology from the University of Birmingham (UK). The unique contribution of Shirley’s work is her research in noncanonical texts from the perspective of contemporary methodology in Practical Theology. She is widely regarded as an expert on the noncanonical text, The Secret Revelation of John, with a book coming out in 2022.
Jesus was an educator who taught in the Greco-Roman mode the importance of morality, virtue, and goodness. Although his own trade was a carpenter, he used the better-known Greco-Roman farming parables to teach his deeper meaning. Of course, the specifics of Jesus’s education differed, but his common technique made him a recognizable teacher within the context of the educational system of the time. The parables in the Gospels of Mark and Thomas illustrate this point.
James McGrath, a professor at Butler University, gives credit to several ancient thinkers for wrestling with the question of God in a messy world. Referencing Irenaeus, for example, he notes that it might be this way because we need to grow and develop. The question of evil, when we try to hold to a good God, is always with us, and we now have the privilege of building on the ideas of those early thinkers.
Marcion, a popular but controversial early Christian leader, tackles the question of how to believe in a good God in the face of evil things happening. Plato introduced the idea, and other first- and second-century thinkers drew on the idea, of a ‘demiurge’ – a creator god who deals with the world. The perfect and transcendent God would never create a world of bad stuff but lovingly dispatched a savior to offer a way out of the world of suffering.
Dr. Jason BeDuhn studies ancient Christian, Jewish, and Manichaean thinkers, and in this podcast interview, he explores their common “tipping point”—the place where all these religious groups struggled to find answers to explain a perfect God who allowed bad things to happen. All of them did so by blurring the idea of monotheism to some degree. There was some other divine influence, commonly known as a ‘demiurge’ who became the source of evil in some manner.
Dr. Brandon Hawk’s new book, Apocrypha for Beginners: A Guide to Understanding and Exploring Scriptures Beyond the Bible, is an easy-to-read and indispensable book for people seeking to understand all the extracanonical writings—sometimes called apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, or deuteroncanonical writings. Although they are not in the Bible, they all relate to the Bible in some important way, from the earliest Hebrew texts through the Middle Ages and teach us something about the Bible’s impact on world thought.
Dr. Lance Jenott introduces the idea in early Christian writing that Adam was a victim, rather than the original sinner. As his ‘helper,’ Eve is Adam’s savior. Although the New Testament includes very little mention of Adam, other extracanonical texts envision another source of evil determined to make Adam submissive. Although 4th century Augustine interpreted Genesis differently, earlier writings show how a spiritual marriage to Christ unites “Adam” (humanity) with “Eve” (life in the spirit).
Bible readers often wonder which Mary the New Testament authors are referring to. Anna Cwikla describes the seven different Marys mentioned in the New Testament (and even more Marys in extracanonical texts). At least one of the New Testament Marys plays a prominent role in some of the books outside the Bible. Cwikla draws our attention to some clues, but no promises, for identifying these Marys. She also warns us to note how our wishful thinking distorts our conclusions.
Chance Bonar thinks Christian accusations of ‘heresy’ will probably last to some degree, but the way many think about such things is changing. Branding someone a ‘heretic,’ and some theological ideas as ‘heretical’ began when different church authorities tried to preserve the status quo and maintain adherence to what they saw as original doctrine. But the discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts (and some new scholarship) are re-defining ‘heresy’ as a discourse, rather than something emerging from an evil power. Gnostic stereotypes are yielding to a more nuanced and thoughtful understanding, providing an example of how to express theological differences without vilifying and demeaning the practices of others.
In this interview, Charles Hedrick describes how he became one of the first people to work directly with the ancient manuscripts found near Nag Hammadi, Egypt. His deep religious curiosity led him from his traditional Baptist origins to the Coptic Museum in Old Cairo. There, he worked with scholars putting fragments of the newly discovered texts together and translating them. His questions led him to other hot topics: the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas.
Professor Janet Spittler leads us comfortably into the unfamiliar world of apocryphal texts, where we learn what happened to the apostles after the resurrection. The texts are part-history, part-entertainment, part-ethical teaching, but wholly important to our understanding of the development of Christianity. They are fascinating and multi-layered, offering glimpses of Jesus’s teaching as well as later church teaching. The texts are stories that Christians have written, told, read, and copied for more than a thousand years.
When Idan Dershowitz broke the news last week that the extremely ancient Shapira Deuteronomy Fragments (aka Shapira Scroll or Valediction of Moses) might not be forgeries, but actually authentic, Tony Burke agreed to discuss some of the public questions and concerns about it with Early Christian Texts. Dershowitz claims the manuscript could be older than Deuteronomy. Although not directly involved in this case, Dr. Burke does have experience with modern forgeries and explains what’s at stake and what scholars study.
Robert J. Miller, New Testament scholar, discusses how it is possible for modern readers to do justice to ancient texts such as the Gospel of Matthew—at home in its own world—while still seeking valuable meaning in our twenty-first century world. Ancient prophecies did not intend to provide accurate predictions of the future but to provide hints about God’s presence in the world. Twenty-first century perspectives are clearer when we understand what prophecies meant in antiquity.
Samuel Zinner and Mark Mattison, translators of the Odes of Solomon, illustrate interrelated elements of Jewish and Christian thought throughout the odes. Some examples from Isaiah demonstrate new ways of thinking about the age-old debates. People often think the Odes are a praise to Jesus. But as Zinner points out, the odes are written to represent words of Jesus in praise to God, not the worship of Jesus.
Dr. Nina Livesey, a scholar on Paul and his writings in the Bible, explains what scholars think Paul must have written and what he probably didn’t write. She agrees with recent scholarly consensus that these letters hold together with common theological perspectives, concepts, and vocabulary. But she pushes a bit farther, describing how Paul’s rhetoric is more intentionally strategic than people have thought. His letters also demonstrate his ethical implications for faith.
Shirley Paulson asks Dr. Stephen Pattison, her PhD supervisor, to discuss how Practical Theology works in our lives today when we read ancient texts. Stephen probes the relationships we establish with tradition, texts from another era, and interpretation. The point of religious faith is to engage meaningfully with the world and to become less frightened of difference. Healing work is about a bigger, better understanding of ourselves and the world.
Marg Mowczko, from an evangelical church in Australia, researches the topic of egalitarianism in the Bible. She holds both a deep faith in the Bible and the essentially equal nature of men and women. She spends many hours each day answering questions about women’s roles in the church. Her primary study is about what Paul and other New Testament writers say concerning Christian ministry and leadership. She concludes that the Bible supports the idea that men and women are essentially equal. Interview questions include a discussion on 1 Timothy and other troubling passages.
Dr. James McGrath inverts the usual question about women learning from Jesus. The podcast interview highlights McGrath’s new book, in which he draws on both scholarly rigor and historical fiction to address gaps in historical knowledge. Strikingly, his examples of Jesus learning from women include some women with lower status, such as a poor widow and a girl accused of adultery. McGrath addresses both theological problems and social sensitivities related to the unusual claim for Jesus as a learner.
Rev. Stephanie A. Duzant is a woman of color and ordained minister utilizing extracanonical texts to inspire congregations to better use the Bible. Her womanist lens allows her to recognize the ways many extracanonical texts challenge culturally-pervasive agendas, especially those involving race, gender, and the meaning of community. Sharing her insights with her listeners affords them an opportunity to understand Christianity in new ways.
Paul’s letter to his Roman colleague, Philemon, delicately balances Roman expectations for enslaved people, their masters, and the new egalitarian ideas in the Christ communities. Learning the lifestyle of ancient Rome in families and households, listeners are invited to imagine what Onesimus, Paul’s enslaved friend, must have felt when Paul’s letter was read aloud to his master, Philemon. The tension concerning the authority over a runaway slave is palpable, but not spoken.
Dr. Tony Burke, editor of the newly released second edition New Testament Apocrypha: More Noncanonical Scriptures, explains not only what is fascinating about these ancient texts but why he thinks churches and Christians would benefit by reading them. In this interview, he offers meaning to the very bizarre stories and why they help us understand the history and evolution of the Christian church. He also talks candidly about what they do and don’t do to our faith.
In this second podcast in the series on the ‘Odes of Solomon,' Natalie Renee Perkins and Deborah Saxon chat together about Natalie’s contemporary musical setting of some of the odes. Deb, a scholar of ancient Christian texts, explains the feminine imagery, the reference to Sophia (Wisdom), and the purpose of ancient hymns used by both Jews and Christians before they diverged. Natalie, a professional singer, writer, and composer, plays some of her contemporary music settings of the Odes.
In this podcast, Samuel Zinner and Mark M. Mattison tell us why they’re so enthusiastic about their new translation of the first- or second-century Odes of Solomon. This collection of ancient songs, or hymns, are not only real monuments of literature, but they transcend the borders of religious orthodoxy. Written before the early Jesus movements distinguished themselves from Judaism, they are equally at home with Judaism, the Gospel of John, and the Dead Sea Scrolls. The divine Feminine is also featured.
In this episode, Professor Arthur Dewey explains why Christians felt so differently about Jesus’s crucifixion long after the event than his immediate followers did. Jesus had taught the presence of God and how to live that, but the shock of his death caused re-thinking and re-evaluating of this shame-inducing passion experience for many decades and centuries. Jesus’s counter-cultural message brought hope to members of the Roman-occupied community, but his crucifixion strengthened their memory and faith.
In this episode, Professor Arthur Dewey explains why Christians felt so differently about Jesus’s crucifixion long after the event than his immediate followers did. Jesus had taught the presence of God and how to live that, but the shock of his death caused re-thinking and re-evaluating of this shame-inducing passion experience for many decades and centuries. Jesus’s counter-cultural message brought hope to members of the Roman-occupied community, but his crucifixion strengthened their memory and faith.
Dr. Celene Lillie discovered in some ancient texts a remarkable metaphor, a rape narrative that relates to both the imperial actions of ancient Rome and modern forms of destructive behavior. Three writers of the second century re-imagined the story of Eve in Genesis as a representation of the violation of Rome’s victims. Despite the violence, Eve overthrows victimization and becomes a healing Christ figure. Her children become saviors of the world.
Dr. Sara Parks found gender parallels in the parables in Q that show Jesus’s deliberate valuing of women for God’s kingdom (‘basileia’). For example, a man who lost a sheep rejoices when it is found; a woman who lost a coin rejoices when it is found. The basileia is within – for both women and men. But Parks explains that Jesus’s egalitarian values did not automatically lead to a dismantling of patriarchal norms of the day.
‘Heresy’ sells. Maybe it’s because it’s mysterious, dangerous, or entertaining. But the idea of ancient ‘Christian heresies’ is misleading. The tendency to make ideas ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ confuses the issues. Strong early Christian women, such as Mary Magdalene, Thecla, and Perpetua, posed a threat to the developing male hierarchy, but their words seem to be consistent with the words of the men. Heresy, then, is not a natural category; it is more about who the power brokers were.
Dr. Karri Whipple’s experience with intimate violence organizations guides her studies of violence and trauma in New Testament studies. She demonstrates how multiple readings from various Biblical and extracanonical texts help us process trauma. But readers should also take care to understand the context of the stories of gender and racial violence so that the examples do not become an excuse to perpetuate violence. Reading from a variety of perspectives also helps readers find many paths to the healing of trauma and pain.
Dr. James McGrath introduces us to the Mandaeans, a modern-day community that practices a religion with ancient roots. Their sacred texts mention John the Baptist and Jesus and other names that are familiar from the Bible. If you’re interested in the New Testament, in Christianity, you’ll also be interested in this group. Since they practice baptism as their main ritual, these people may be the 2,000 year-long descendants of John the Baptist.
Elizabeth Schrader describes her discovery of the addition of Martha in the Gospel of John. Did she find enough evidence to lead to her conclusion that Mary and Lazarus had no sister named Martha? Or that Lazarus’ sister Mary might actually have been Mary Magdalene? Elizabeth speculates about all this, but she has found motives and other evidence that lend strong support for her theories. A CORRECTION: At 13:17 in the podcast, Elizabeth meant to say ‘Boanerges,’ rather than ‘Bartimaeus.’
Dr. Lily Vuong – from a family of Vietnam refugees – found the 'outsider' point of view in the Protevangelium of James resonated with her own experience. It’s an apocryphal text, but instead of thinking of it as a ‘failed scripture,’ Vuong encourages us to appreciate the beauty and meaning of the book on its own merit. The story recounts Mary’s preparation to become the mother of Jesus. Historical facts are less important than the value and meaning of purity.
In Shepherd of Hermas, Elliott finds distinguishing Christian feature: the poor are to be honored. All of us – slaves and masters – should be servants to God.
Barry’s deep love of both the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) and New Testament inspires us to listen in new ways to familiar texts as well as the ones we’re not so aware of. They awaken our moral imagination to deeper values of justice and peace.
About Barry
Dr. Barry R. Huff is Assistant Professor of Religion at Principia College. His interests include wisdom literature, Psalms, Torah, creation theology, Intertextuality, ecological hermeneutics, and the reception history of the Bible. He received his PhD in Biblical Studies from Union Presbyterian Seminary, a ThM from Columbia Theological Seminary, and his MTS from Eden Theological Seminary.
I don’t know if it’s because Anna Cwikla is so down-to-earth herself, or the strange-sounding Dialogue of the Savior is much more down-to-earth than people realize, but in this podcast conversation, Anna talks about the characters in the story as if they are people we’d enjoy talking to today. She is an avid participant on her softball team and curling team, but she’s also committed to working on her dissertation for her Ph.D. in the Department for the Study of Religion (at the University of Toronto).
I asked Anna about the one woman (named ‘Mary’) in the ‘dialogue’ with two other named disciples and the Savior (likely Jesus), and Anna points out that’s a little better than the ratio on her softball team, which is 3 to 1. In other words, the fact that a woman is speaking in this extracanonical text shouldn’t sound so unusual.
In like manner, Anna demystifies some of the bizarre-sounding passages, such as “pray where there is no woman,” or “the works of the female will perish.” The Dialogue of the Savior doesn’t have to be interpreted esoterically, because it’s actually simpler to find a practical and reasonable interpretation.
The Bible and Beyond Podcast Episode The Nag Hammadi Collection An Interview with Dr. Celene Lillie
Dr. Celene Lillie dug deep enough into the books in the Nag Hammadi collection that she can talk about them as easily as close friends. First she introduces us to what these special books are all about and what drew her to them in the first place. Then she explains the difference between the better-known Dead Sea Scrolls and this Nag Hammadi library of codices.
Talking to Celene about these texts helps us understand how these ancient writers made such important connections with their own readers, and then why that makes them so valuable for us today. We’re not just reading about ancient history; we’re being invited to be creative with our own reading of them. They inspire us to ask similar questions of them now: What does it mean to be community today? How do we deal with unjust rulers today?
Celene reads these texts in the Coptic language. But even if we don’t know Coptic, she encourages us to read different translations side by side, and to think fearlessly for ourselves what they might mean. Scholars are just scratching the surface of the possibilities of their meaning. So, she encourages all of us to join in the discovery.
The Bible and Beyond Podcast Episode Reading the ‘Other’ Gospels An interview with Mark M. Mattison When Mark M. Mattison, an independent scholar of ancient Christian texts, first encountered the Gospel of Thomas, he was intrigued. The full text of this Gospel had been discovered in 1945 with a collection of other unknown texts near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, and it subsequently became a proxy for a larger debate about the legitimacy of the institutional church. Some, fearing it would undermine the authority of the Bible, argued that it was a deviant version of the canonical Gospels. Others, who argued for an early date and independent source, seemed to be motivated (at least in part) by a desire to question the ecclesiastical status quo.
Mark is one of the scholars who articulates a broader approach: The dozens of Gospels written in antiquity shed light not just on the meaning of Jesus, but also on the communities that produced them. Different Gospels have different purposes. The Gospel of Mary, for instance, teaches a mystical (or contemplative) view of Jesus' teaching. Others, like the Gospel of Matthew, focus on church issues.
All are worthy of deeper engagement.
Download this episode.
The Bible and Beyond Podcast Episode It’s Ok to Look at Extracanonical Texts! An interview with Dr. Hal Taussig Dr. Hal Taussig compels us to walk through the door into the world of extracanonical texts. Whether we grew up fully satisfied that our Christian faith is established and needs no additional information about ‘unauthorized things,’ or we are eager to explore a deeper view of the early Christians – Hal walks with us, step by step to a realization that these lesser known texts are vitally important, beautiful, vibrant, and valid today for both scholars and the public.
The extracanonical texts are not intended as exclusions of the traditional New Testament, but in fact reading them side by side enhances both. They remind us that each book of the New Testament is different and sometimes mutually contradictory, so these other texts help to fill in the blanks as well as helping us to read these contradictions with meaning.
Hal tackles the origin and trouble with the word ‘Gnosticism,’ showing us why most of us have been misled on that subject. Hal is now a recently retired Professor of the New Testament and United Methodist Pastor, but not a retired thinker and scholar! His Mediography includes The New York Times, Time Magazine, the Daily Show, National Public Radio, and quite a few more.
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The Bible and Beyond Podcast Episode The Power of Self-Control in Early Christian Community An interview with Deborah Saxon, PhD Dr. Deborah Saxon, teacher of religion at Butler University in Indianapolis, explains in this interview why the practice of self-control was so important to early Jesus followers. Learning self-control was part of the education for young leaders in the Greco-Roman culture of antiquity, and ultimately it became a prevalent idea for society. Early Jesus followers saw it as a means for what today we might call ‘taming their egos.’
One of the ways this idea of learning self-control took hold in the Christ movements was its meaning for those who faced persecution – or more specifically, martyrdom. For those who were going to die, the best way not to lose control was to die “a noble death.” Dying with patience and endurance was a means for welcoming martyrdom. But some of these early Jesus followers disagreed and thought that this was a distortion of the true care of the self. It wasn’t the meaning of Jesus and his teaching.
Deb’s discussion of the care of the self leads to a deeper understanding of some of the struggles among early Christians. Her ideas are more fully developed in her book, The Care of the Self in Early Christian Texts.
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