Breaking Down Patriarchy: Recent Episodes
Amy McPhie Allebest
Breaking Down Patriarchy is a podcast for everyone! Learn about the creation of patriarchy and those who have challenged it as you listen to bookclub-style discussions of essential historical texts. Gain life-changing epiphanies and practical takeaways through these smart, relatable conversations.
On the finale episode of the podcast Amy is joined by her daughters-Lindsay, Lucy, and Sophie-who help reflect on and celebrate the history of this project, some of the most valuable lessons learned along the way, and how the knowledge gathered through this work echoes both forward and backward across generations.
Thank you for sharing this journey with us, listeners. Please join us on YouTube (@breakingdownpatrarchy) where Breaking Down Patriarchy is continuing to grow.
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Amy is joined by Shirlee Draper of Cherish Families to hear her courageous account of leaving the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and a polygamous marriage, sharing personal stories, exploring the alarming similarities between the explicit patriarchy of the FLDS Church and the allegedly more egalitarian world beyond it, plus discussing the practical work we can all be doing to help while avoiding condescension.
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Shirlee Draper is a former member of the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints community. She holds an MA in Public Administration and is the Director of Operations for Cherish Families, a non-profit organization providing compassionate support to individuals and families from polygamous backgrounds.
Amy is joined by authors and educators Gloria and Bob Rees to discuss midrash --stories we write to interpret scripture and create meaning -- exploring the endless possibilities of imagination and the radical power that women hold to write our own midrash and change the spiritual landscape.
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Gloria Gardner Rees has taught English in the US, China, India, and Nepal. Her studies include nutrition, gerontology and adult development. Currently, she is involved in interfaith, humanitarian, and environmental work. In addition to writing midrash, she is co-editing a collection of essays by Latter-day Saints titled Pillars of my Faith.
Robert A. Rees is a scholar, poet, and humanitarian. He is the author of “Toward a Mormon Feminist Midrash: Mormon Women and the Imaginative Reading of Scripture,” Sunstone (2012) and “The Midrashic Imagination and the Book of Mormon,” Dialogue (Fall 2011). His most recent book is Imagining and Reimagining the Restoration (Kofford Books, 2025).
Amy joins the renowned writer Carol Lynn Pearson in her home for an illuminating and tender conversation about the life and struggles of a major figure in LDS feminism, her insights into queer people in the Church, the lingering ghost of polygamy, and what it takes to be an independent thinker inside a patriarchal institution.
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Renowned Mormon feminist, Carol Lynn Pearson, is an American poet, author, screenwriter, and playwright. She frequently addresses the topics of LGBT acceptance and the role of Latter-Day Saint women. She has written many important works, including Goodbye, I Love You, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, and most recently, The Diaries of Carol Lynn Pearson – Mormon Author, Feminist, and Activist.
Amy is joined by author Naima Brown to discuss her newest novel, Mother Tongue, exploring the consequences of change, finding our authentic selves, motherhood, right-wing radicalization, and the importance of fiction in our fight against patriarchy.
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Naima Brown holds degrees in Middle Eastern Studies, Anthropology and Religious Studies. Her essays have appeared in Vogue Australia, the Guardian Australia, and more. She wrote, along with Melissa Doyle, the non-fiction book How to Age Against the Machine. She has spent over a decade working in news, current affairs and documentary - save for her brief stint in reality TV, which inspired her first novel, The Shot. She was born and raised in Northern California before living and working in Yemen and Afghanistan, and now lives in New South Wales with her husband and her dog. Her second novel, Mother Tongue, was published in March 2025.
Amy is joined by Dr. Keisha Blain to discuss her new book, Without Fear: Black Women and the Making of Human Rights, shining a light on unsung heroines of activism and the critical importance of preserving history in our precarious political landscape.
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Dr. Keisha Blain is an award-winning historian of the 20th century United States. She is a Professor of History and Africana Studies at Brown University, as well as one of the founding leaders of the African American Intellectual History Society, and she serves as the editor-in-chief of Global Black Thought, a journal of essays on Black ideas, theories, and intellectuals.
Blain is the author of the books Set the World on Fire: Black Nationalist Women and the Global Struggle for Freedom, and Until I Am Free: Fannie Lou Hamer's Enduring Message to America. And her most recent book, which we’ll be discussing today, is titled Without Fear: Black Women and the Making of Human Rights and it was published just this September.
Amy is joined by publisher and sex educator Susan Bratton for a tell-all discussion about sex under patriarchy, the power of pleasure, and practical steps towards liberation in the bedroom.
Susan Bratton is co-founder and CEO of two companies serving the direct-to-consumer intimate wellness space. She is a manufacturer of supplements and a publisher of online courses focused on having a great relationship your whole life long. Her expertise is in ageless sexuality, sexual biohacking, libido supplementation and sexual regenerative therapies that roll back the clock on aging. She is a sought-after speaker from the stage, has been on countless podcasts, radio shows, and television segments worldwide. Her weekly email newsletter has nearly a half a million readers. And she is beloved as the "trusted intimacy wellness expert to millions 💋."
Susan believes that shame-free, frequent sexual pleasure is every man and woman’s birthright.
Amy is joined by Mary Catherine Starr, author of Mama Needs a Minute!, to discuss how even with the best intentions parents can easily fall into patriarchal and unequal gender roles, how to take a closer look at our relationships and households, and how comics can help us cope with the overwhelm of motherhood.
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Mary Catherine Starr is a mother-of-two and a graphic designer, illustrator, yoga teacher, author, and the artist behind the viral Instagram account @momlife_comics. Mary Catherine's work focuses on the challenges of marriage, motherhood, double standards, and inequality in both the household and the workplace. She is passionate about speaking up for women and bringing awareness to the mental load and the invisible labor of motherhood. Her first book, a comic memoir entitled Mama Needs a Minute!, came out in March, 2025. Mary Catherine lives in Massachusetts with her husband, her children, and her son’s large collection of plastic dinosaurs.
Learn more about Mary Catherine Starr at marycatherinestarr.com.
Amy is joined by attorney and activist Saru Jayaraman of One Fair Wage to learn the eye-opening history of tipping culture, how the restaurant service industry is one of our nation's biggest propagators of patriarchy, and why it's time for consumers to say enough is enough.
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Saru Jayaraman is co-founder and president of One Fair Wage, a national organization of nearly 300,000 restaurant and service workers, nearly 1000 restaurant owners, and dozens of organizations nationwide, all working together to end the subminimum wages in the United States and raise wages and working conditions in the service sector. Saru is also the author of the books One Fair Wage, Forked: A New Standard for American Dining, and Behind the Kitchen Door.
Amy is joined by Jenna Karvunidis, originator of the Gender Reveal Party, to discuss where this trend came from, why it reinforces patriarchal ideas, and how she came to adamantly oppose the celebrations she created.
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Jenna Karvunidis is a writer, artist, attorney, and entrepreneur based in Los Angeles. She is a critic of the gender reveal party and has been featured in Vogue, NPR, The Guardian, BBC, and beyond for her cultural commentary and evolving perspective.
Amy is joined by author Kaila Yu to discuss her book Fetishized: A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism, and Beauty, hearing Kaila's firsthand experiences while also learning about the colonialist origins of the fetishes harming Asian women and girls.
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Kaila Yu is an author and on-camera correspondent based in Los Angeles. She's written for the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, Rolling Stone, Condé Nast Traveler, National Geographic, and more. Her former band, Nylon Pink, has toured in Australia and performed across Shanghai, Costa Rica, Japan, Macau, Malaysia, and beyond. Her debut memoir, Fetishized: A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism, and Beauty, was released in August 2025.
Amy is joined by activists from I-WILL, a group dedicated to sharing the stories of Iranian women living under a patriarchal regime. These courageous women let us know how the situation in Iran has developed since the Women Life Freedom movement began, tell us about the incredible ways everyday women are resisting oppression, and let us know what listeners can do to help.
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Inspired by the “Woman Life Freedom” uprising which started in Iran against the Islamic Republic regime in September of 2022 following the brutal killing of an innocent Kurdish Iranian girl, Mahsa Jina Amini by government agents, the Iranian Women Institute for Life and Liberty (I-WILL) seeks to provide a platform to raise awareness about, and support, women who have been victims of gender apartheid and discrimination. Through advocacy, education, and community engagement, we aspire to foster a society where immigrant women are empowered to contribute fully, enriching the fabric of our global community with their strength and resilience.
We're honored to be joined by I-WILL activists Saghi Saghazadeh, Naseem Ghazanfari, Reina Rezaei, and Kelly O'Leary.
Amy is joined by art historian Sunday Rennie to discuss the overlooked history of female artists, why they're underrepresented in museums, and what has to change for women to be seen as more than a muse.
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Sunday Rennie is a third-generation artist and seasoned art advisor. She holds a Master’s degree in Art Curating and has spent years immersed in Europe’s most prestigious art circles. With an innate eye for beauty and a deep understanding of artistic heritage, Sunday curates bespoke cultural experiences that offer guests privileged access to Paris’s vibrant art scene and hidden creative treasures. Learn more at savoirtours.com.
Amy is joined by Erika Lorshbough, Executive Director of InterACT, to learn what it means to be intersex, the major struggles facing the intersex community, and how intersex issues are also women's issues.
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Erika Lorshbough is an intersex advocate and activist for civil and human rights. Most recently, Erika served as deputy director for policy at the New York Civil Liberties Union and led the organization’s extremely successful statewide legislative program advancing principles of freedom, justice, and equality. Along with their experience in program and organizational management, Erika brings two decades of heart work in community organizing and social action. Their law and policy experience has spanned the areas of gender and sexuality, voting rights and democracy, economic justice, criminal legal system reform, and the rights of people experiencing detention and incarceration. Erika completed their undergraduate studies in psychology and public policy at UCLA and the Luskin School of Public Affairs and received their J.D. from Brooklyn Law School. In addition to numerous public interest awards and legal fellowships, Erika has been honored as a Rising Star by the Brooklyn Law School Alumni Association, and was named one of the Best LGBTQ+ Lawyers Under 40 by the National LGBTQ+ Bar Association. Erika is a certified restorative justice practitioner, an adoring caretaker of plants and animals (and people!), and a fan of wandering and getting lost from time to time.
Amy is joined by Amie Souza Reilly, author of Human/Animal, for an eye-opening discussion about stalking and safety, about how patriarchy thrives on women's fears and about what we actually have to be afraid of.
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Amie Souza Reilly is a visual artist and multigenre writer from Connecticut. Her work has appeared in various journals, including Wigleaf, HAD, The Chestnut Review, The Atticus Review, Catapult, SmokeLong Quarterly, Barren, Pidgeonholes and elsewhere. She holds an MA in English Literature from Fordham University and an MFA from Fairfield University, and is the Writer-in-Residence and Director of Writing Studies at Sacred Heart University. She is the author of Human/Animal and works as the Director of Writing Studies at Sacred Heart University.
Amy is joined by President and CEO of MANA, Amy Hinojosa, for a phenomenal conversation about Latina Americans, immigration, abortion, advocacy, and the issues of humanity that unite us all.
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Amy Hinojosa is the president and CEO of MANA, a national Latina organization, the oldest and largest Latina membership organization in the United States, and its sister organization, MANA Action Fund. MANA focuses on strengthening Latina women and girls through mentoring, education and advocacy. Amy has extensive experience working on local and national grassroots campaigns targeted at mobilizing voices and actions in Hispanic communities across the country. Community education and engagement have been central to Amy's work with a particular emphasis on youth.
Amy is joined by Danny Rensch, author of Dark Squares: How Chess Saved My Life, for a courageous reckoning with his life lived under the oppressive patriarchy of a cult, plus learning forgiveness, his path to healing, and how chess helped him become the best version of himself.
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Danny Rensch is an American International Master, world-class commentator, tournament organizer, co-founder and Chief Chess Officer of Chess.com, and a chess celebrity. As a scholastic player, Rensch won multiple national championships and still holds the record for the youngest chess master in the state of Arizona. As an adult, he has become the face of Chess.com and is the author of Dark Squares: How Chess Saved My Life.
Amy is joined by author Paulina Bren to discuss her newest book, She-Wolves: The Untold History of Women on Wall St., sharing stories of ambitious women breaking down barriers and making money in a world made by men for men, plus why we still need more women in finance today.
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Paulina Bren is a writer, historian, and professor. She's the author of the critically acclaimed bestseller The Barbizon: The Hotel That Set Women Free. Paulina teaches at Vassar College, where she is the adjunct professor of multidisciplinary studies on the Pittsburgh Endowment Chair in the humanities, and the director of the Women, Feminist and Queer Studies Program. Paulina's most recent book is She Wolves: The Untold History of Women on Wall Street, and it was named one of the 10 best nonfiction books of 2024 by the Kirkus Reviews.
Amy is joined by author and organizer Hilary Giovale to discuss her book, Becoming A Good Relative, and have a transparent conversation about whiteness, white guilt, and finding the difference between appreciation and appropriation on our journeys toward healing and decolonization.
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Hilary Giovale is a mother, writer, and community organizer who holds a Master’s Degree in Good and Sustainable Communities. She has taught improvisational dance and has served on the boards of philanthropic, human rights, and environmental organizations. Descended from the Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, and Indigenous peoples of Ancient Europe, she is a ninth-generation American settler. For most of her life these origins were obscured by whiteness.
After learning more about her ancestors’ history, Hilary began emerging from a fog of amnesia, denial, and fragmentation. For the first time, she could see a painful reality: her family’s occupation of this land has harmed Indigenous and African peoples, cultures, lands, and lifeways. With this realization, her life changed. Divesting from settler colonialism and whiteness, she seeks to follow Indigenous and Black leadership in support of healing, mutual liberation, and equitable futures. She is the author of Becoming a Good Relative: Calling White Settlers toward Truth, Healing, and Repair (Green Writers Press, October 2024).
Amy is joined by Emily Warneke of the Utah Prison Education Project to discuss how and why women end up behind bars, what life is like for incarcerated women, and what we can all be doing to help put an end to an exploitative and dehumanizing prison system.
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Emily Warneke is a third-year PhD student in Educational Leadership and Policy at the University of Utah, where her research centers on access and equity in post-secondary education in prison. For her dissertation, she intends to explore the experiences of formerly incarcerated mothers who pursued higher education while incarcerated, and how this experience informs the ways that they navigate motherhood and education post-release. Emily currently works as a graduate research assistant with the research collaborative on higher education in prison. She's currently involved in developing a student center inside a women's designated prison that is led by currently incarcerated students through the Utah Prison Education Project. Drawing from feminist and intersectional frameworks, her work seeks to challenge dominant narratives about incarceration, motherhood, and educational justice.
Amy is joined by former congressperson Marie Newman who shares her advocacy against bullying, her first-hand account of the January 6th insurrection, and her insights into how we can save our nation's politics and find our path again.
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Marie Newman is a former congresswoman, nonprofit CEO, marketing executive, author of A Life Made from Scratch and When Your Child Is Being Bullied: Real Solutions, antibullying activist, former Moms Demand Action spokesperson and national LGBTQ+ advocate. In addition to those roles, she is a mom of two adult children, consultant and podcaster. Marie Newman is known for building movements and solving the toughest problems. Her motto has always been, when you do not see the solution you desperately need, make it from scratch! She lives in Lagrange, Illinois with her husband and beagle, Iggy.
Amy is joined by men's educator Dr. Brendan Kwiatkowski-Hartman to discuss loneliness, bullying, and other challenges faced by boys and young men, as well as what is and isn't helpful about toxic masculinity, the man-o-sphere, red pills, plus imagining what positive masculinity might look like.
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Dr. Brendan K. Hartman specializes in the social-emotional development and wellbeing of boys and men—and how this connects to the wellbeing of all genders. His interdisciplinary work bridges sociology, psychology, and education to foster healthier relationships, emotional connection, and resilience in individuals, communities, and systems.
Amy is joined by author and anti-patriarchy activist Tia Levings to discuss her book A Well-Trained Wife, learning about life in a mega-church and how Christian fundamentalism is infiltrating our politics, plus unpacking the many complications that come from leaving a patriarchal community and faith.
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Tia Levings is a writer, creator, and content specialist. She shines light on the abuses of Christian fundamentalism to educate, validate, and empower those who feel smashed by the patriarchy to create something beautiful from pain, and because when she went through the hell of church-sanctioned violence, she felt alone, but wasn't. There are thousands of others out there. Her memoir, A Well-Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy came out in August, 2024.
Amy is joined by an anonymous guest, a former U.S. Navy SEAL, to discuss his experiences joining, training, and deploying in a specialized military unit, all while exploring patriarchy in our armed forces and questioning the nature of violence.
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Amy is joined by Dr. Marina Warner to revisit her book, Alone of All Her Sex, getting expert insight into the history of the Virgin Mary, her evolution and multitude of meanings, unrealistic religious standards, and what it takes for a woman to become a myth.
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Marina Warner is an English historian, mythographer, art critic, novelist and short story writer. She is best known for her many award-winning non-fiction books relating to feminism and myth. She has written for many publications, including The London Review of Books, the Sunday Times, and Vogue. She is also a Professor of English and Creative Writing at Birkbeck, University of London. In 2017, she was elected president of the Royal Society of Literature, the first time the role has been held by a woman since the founding of the Royal Society of Literature in 1820. She is also a Distinguished Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford.
Amy is joined by author Meg Stone to discuss her book, The Cost of Fear, digging into the difference between safety through compliance and safety through resistance, plus practical self-defense suggestions and what we can do to stop gender-based violence.
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Meg Stone is the Executive Director of IMPACT Boston, an abuse prevention and empowerment self-defense organization. Her writing has been published in Huffington Post, Newsweek, Washington Post, Boston Globe, Dame, and Ms. She has received numerous awards for her work over the past 30 years. She lives in Cambridge, MA, with her partner Mal and a shockingly large collection of musical theatre cast albums.
Amy is joined by Dr. Jay Zigmont to discuss his book, The Childfree Guide to Life and Money, and better understand patriarchy's impact on our wallets, how parenthood shapes our finances, and the challenges and advantages of veering off the standard life script by choosing a child-free lifestyle.
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Jay Zigmont, PhD, MBA, CFP® is the Founder of Childfree Wealth, a life and financial planning firm dedicated to helping Childfree and Permanently Childless people. Childfree Wealth is the first (and currently the only) life and financial planning firm dedicated to serving Childfree people.
Jay is also the author of the forthcoming book The Childfree Guide to Life and Money and the co-host of the Childfree Wealth podcast. His Ph.D. is in Adult Learning from the University of Connecticut. He has been featured in Fortune, Forbes, MarketWatch, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Business Insider, CNBC, and many other publications.
Amy is joined by historian and author, Dr. Philippa Gregory, to discuss her newest book, Normal Women, exploring 900 years of women's stories including the origins of the gender wage gap, the history and normality of women loving women, where our abortion laws began, and much much more.
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Philippa Gregory is one of the world’s foremost historical novelists and non-fiction writers. She wrote her first ever novel, Wideacre, when she was completing her PhD in eighteenth-century literature and it sold worldwide, heralding a new era for historical fiction. Her flair for blending history and imagination developed into a signature style and Philippa went on to write many bestselling novels, including The Other Boleyn Girl and The White Queen.
Now a recognized authority on women’s history, Philippa graduated from the University of Sussex and received a PhD from the University of Edinburgh, where she is a Regent and was made Alumna of the Year in 2009.
Sam Rose is joined by artist and advocate, Julia Alora, who shares a brilliant essay on asexuality before digging deep into asexual history, how patriarchy impacts the ace community, and what we can all do to support asexual or questioning family and youth.
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Julia Alora (she/they) is a Portland-based sculptress creating biologically influenced sculptures out of recycled materials. Born and raised in the wilds of upstate NY, her love of the natural world drives her to find beauty in everything, at times expressing this through sharp, fierce grotesqueries, or smooth, living visions of steel and glass. Her creations hearken to the viewers to consider their connection to nature, their responsibilities to the world and to others. She incorporates ethically-sourced bone, junkyard steel, dumpster treasures, and other found objects, into lovingly made monsters and figures.
Amy is joined by advocate Allison Dayton, founder of Lift & Love, to discuss the god-sized holes left behind when LGBTQIA+ people are forced out of their faith traditions, plus how the LDS Church can be changed through love and role modelling to embrace its gay family.
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Allison Dayton started the Lift & Love Foundation to support LGBTQ individuals and their families in the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Allison lost her brother, who was gay, to suicide at the same time her 17-year-old son was coming out. Looking for resources to help her family, she couldn’t find anything that embraced her religious beliefs and her son’s divine identity. Lift and Love has grown to fill that much-needed space supporting thousands of individuals and families as they navigate their unique journeys of protecting their identity or that of their precious children and integrating their new reality into their devotion to Jesus Christ. Allison is a writer, speaker, including at BYU Women’s Conferences. In 2022 she moderated an LGBTQ Conversation Circle at the UN Women’s Conference. Allison and her husband, Kenn, live in the foothills of Salt Lake City, Utah, have three grown children, a son-in-law and a granddaughter, Georgia, who rules their world.
Amy is joined by author Heather Hester to discuss her book Parenting with Pride: Unlearn Bias and Embrace, Empower, and Love Your LGBTQ+ Teen, digging into the coming out process and exploring the best ways we can support queer children through education, self-care, and confronting homophobia.
Resources for parents.
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Heather Hester is the founder of Chrysalis Mama which provides support and education to parents and allies of LGBTQIA adolescents, teenagers, and young adults. She is also the creator/host of the Top 1% podcast Just Breathe: Parenting your LGBTQ Teen. As an advocate and coach, she believes the coming out process is equal parts beautiful and messy. She works with her clients to let go of fear and feelings of isolation so that they can reconnect with themselves and their children with awareness and compassion. Heather also works within organizations via specialized programming to bring education and empowerment with a human touch. She is delighted to announce that her first book is out in the world as of May 2024 - Parenting with Pride: Unlearn Bias and Embrace, Empower, and Love Your LGBTQ+ Teen. Married to the funniest guy she’s ever known and the mother of four extraordinary kids (two of whom are LGBTQ) and one sassy mini bernedoodle, Heather believes in being authentic and embracing the messiness. You can almost always find her with a cup of coffee nearby whether she’s at her computer, on her yoga mat, or listening to her favorite music.
Breaking Down Patriarchy producer, Sam Rose Preminger, revisits stories of coming into their transgender identity and answers listener questions about transgender and nonbinary experiences, discussing bathrooms, sports, queer youth, and the fight for LGBTQIA+ liberation.
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Sam Rose Preminger (they/them) is an editor and producer on Breaking Down Patriarchy. They live in Portland, OR with their partner and rescue pup.
Amy is joined by married partners - poet Phillip Brown and therapist Andres Brown - for an authentic and heartful exploration of queer identity, queer safety, queer relationships and patriarchy through an exchange of poetry and conversation.
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Phillip Watts Brown is a poet and artist after earning a BA in graphic design from Brigham Young University. He earned an MFA in poetry from Oregon State University. He is the author of Boy with Flowers in His Mouth, which was published by Gold Line Press in February, 2025. His work has appeared in literary journals and anthologies, including Ninth Letter, the Common, Ruminate, Nimrod, Tahoma Literary Review, and others. Phillip lives with his husband in northern Utah, where he works as a graphic designer. He's also a poetry editor for the online literary journal, Halfway Down the Stairs.
Andres Larios Brown (They/Elle) is a Utah-based licensed marriage and family therapist dedicated to healing for LGBTQ plus communities. As training director and partner at Simple Modern Therapy and Institute, Andres focuses on trauma, healing, and wellbeing for those who feel marginalized or othered. Andres specializes in identity development and reclaiming healing practices for queer, trans, and BIPOC communities. As a therapist of both lived experience and learned expertise, they are committed to helping LGBTQ+ people thrive.
In addition to providing therapy, Andres focuses on creating and facilitating training for therapists and teaches at U of V’s Masters of Social Work Program and U of O’s Couples and Family Therapy Program. They have co-authored a chapter in the Rutledge International Handbook of Couple and Family Therapy, as well as a number of other articles in different academic journals. Through therapy, teaching, training, and advocacy. They seek to bridge the gap between research and clinical practice. They and their husband of eight years live in northern Utah where they spend as much time with family and loved ones as possible.
Amy is joined by coach Sara Fisk to unpack people pleasing behaviors, learning how women are rewarded for losing ourselves, rethinking our resources, and making more purposeful choices about when and where we people please.
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Sara Bybee Fisk is a master-certified coach and instructor who teaches women how to overcome people-pleasing, perfectionism, and codependency. She is known for her podcast, the Ex-Good Girl Podcast, and her work with the Life Coach School. Fisk is also a former scholars coach for the Life Coach School.
Amy is joined by Breaking Down Patriarchy collaborator Celeste Davis to discuss her late-blooming into feminism, taking up space, re-writing the marital script, and how we can all build better relationships by holding love and accountability in equal measure.
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Celeste Davis is the writer behind the popular Substack ‘Matriarchal Blessing’. She is a certified spiritual director through the Chaplaincy Institute, specializing in LDS faith transitions. She lives in Spokane, Washington with her husband and four kids.
Amy is joined by Somatic Educator Pamela Madsen to discuss sexual self-confidence, feeling good about vulvas, the healing power of pleasure, and how we can all come back to our bodies through sex and somatic practices.
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Pamela Madsen is a veteran advocate, activist, and educator. As the founder of Back to the Body, which is now in its 13th year of operations, Pamela’s full-bodied mix of intelligence, humor and vulnerability has made her one of the most mediagenic advocates for integrated sexuality and a taboo-buster around body image. Pamela has a Master’s Degree in Education and is a Certified Somatic Sex Educator.
Amy is joined by author and educator, Dr. Michael Kaufman, to discuss the manosphere, loneliness, hatred, and other risks to today's men and boys, plus practical advice for men who want to help themselves and others by getting involved in the work of gender equity.
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Michael Kaufman, PhD, is a writer of both fiction and non-fiction books. As an advisor, activist, and keynote speaker, he has developed innovative approaches to engage men and boys in promoting gender equality and positively transforming men's lives. Over the past four decades his work with the United Nations, governments, non-governmental organizations, corporations, trade unions, and universities has taken him to fifty countries.
Amy “levels up” her video game knowledge with Game Developer Ashley Ruhl, who teaches us about feminism in gaming, Gamergate, women wastelanders, 'pink games', and how all of us can help support gender equity and representation in this massively popular pastime.
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Ashley Ruhl is a Narrative Director, Narrative Designer, Cinematic Designer, and Writer exclusively in games. Over the past 13 years she has focused on a multi-prong approach of character-driven narrative, eye-catching cinematics, and intuitive game design. She was the first woman at Telltale to hold the titles of Episodic Director and Assistant Episodic Director, credited for Episode 3 and Episode 1 of "Tales from the Borderlands" respectively, and was selected for Forbes "30 under 30" list in video games in 2016. Ruhl focuses on cinematic delivery and strong emotional agency in game narrative, creating memorable moments that encourage players to be authors of their own stories.
Amy is joined by author & illustrator Rebecca Burgess to discuss their graphic novel, Speak Up!, and explore the impacts of patriarchy on the neurodivergent community. Rebecca shares their personal stories of growing up with autism, discusses the importance of representation, and shares invaluable advice for parents and peers of autistic children.
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Rebecca Burgess a freelance illustrator currently living in Bristol. Their favorite things are nature, history, comics, psychology, and cuddling their girlfriend.
Burgess is most well known for their various long and short comics that explore and explain autism. Their comics are also known for showing big feelings and loveable characters that people can connect to on a personal level. They have both written and illustrated several award winning YA and children’s books/comics, including Speak Up! and How to be Ace.
Amy is joined by author Kathy Iandoli to discuss her book, God Save the Queens: The Essential History of Women in Hip-Hop, exploring the incredible history of female pioneers in hip-hop history from old school crews like The Mercedes Ladies to contemporary superstars like Lil' Kim.
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Kathy Iandoli is a critically acclaimed journalist, author, podcaster, media coach, and documentarian. She has nearly 25 years experience working in the music industry—from media, to publicity, radio, and artist management. Her first book, God Save The Queens: The Essential History of Women In Hip-Hop was named an NPR Best Book Of the Year. She is the author of the biography Baby Girl: Better Known As Aaliyah, as well as the co-author of rapper, Lil’ Kim’s memoir, The Queen Bee. Kathy has written about music and gender for two decades, with bylines in VIBE, The Source, XXL, Village Voice, Rolling Stone, Billboard, Pitchfork, BUST, Teen Vogue, PAPER, Playboy, i-D, Cosmopolitan, Maxim, The Guardian, VICE, and many others. Kathy was a professor-in-residence of Music Business at NYU for 7 years as well as an alum of Steinhardt's Music Business Graduate Program and has served as a pundit (television, radio, and panels) for discussions on hip-hop and gender.
Amy is joined by filmmaker Sarah Perkins to discuss her documentary, The Basement Talks, hearing a powerful and pertinent story about women coming together in the wake of violence, recognizing the humanity in our political rivals, and what we talk about when we talk about abortion.
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Sarah Perkins is a filmmaker and PhD student at Brandeis University in Massachusetts, though she currently resides in rural southeast Idaho with her family. Together with her husband, she is the co-director of The Basement Talks. Previously, she worked as production manager on American Tragedy, which won Best Documentary at the Boston Film Festival and as the editor for the Herbe Nassour story. In her graduate work, she studies 20th-century literature and theology around the question of theodicy.
Amy is joined by Lindsay Hansen Park of Year of Polygamy and The Sunstone History Podcast to shine a light on the painful history of Mormon polygamy, communities who still practice it, and the best ways to uplift and empower plural wives.
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Lindsay Hansen Park is a women’s rights activist, a feminist writer, and an advocate against gender violence. She was recently the cultural and historical consultant for Hulu’s limited series, Under the Banner of Heaven and is currently heavily involved in the Mormon Feminist movement. Lindsay is the Executive Director for the Sunstone Education Foundation and the founder of the Year of Polygamy podcast. She wrote for six years at FeministMormonHousewives.org about women’s issues and now podcasts for the Sunstone Mormon History podcast. Her work has been referenced by the Los Angeles Times, New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, NPR,Quartz Magazine, and many other Utah publications. She and her family live in Utah where she raises three beautiful kiddos, gardens, and rages against the machine.
Amy returns to a book from Season One - Unwell Women - now joined by the author Dr. Elinor Cleghorn! This conversation unpacks the history of women's healthcare, looks at medical myths and women's pain, and explores the patriarchal shadow which still looms over our health outcomes.
Listen to the original episode about Unwell Women here.
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Dr Elinor Cleghorn has a background in feminist visual culture and history, and her critical writing has been published in several academic journals including Screen. After receiving her PhD in in 2012, Elinor spent three years as a post-doctoral researcher at the Ruskin School, University of Oxford, working on an interdisciplinary medical humanities project. She has given talks and lectures at the British Film Institute, where she has been a regular contributor to their education programme, Tate Modern, and ICA London, and she has appeared on the BBC Radio 4 discussion show The Forum. In 2017, she was shortlisted for the Fitzcarraldo Editions essay prize. She now works as a freelance writer and researcher. Her non-fiction debut, Unwell Women, was published in June 2021. She is currently working on her next book on intersectional feminist history of women and mother-led knowledge around reproduction, pregnancy, birth and mothering.
Amy is joined by educator Ben Blair of Newlane University to discuss actionable steps towards building a more egalitarian education system, how new technologies can expand learning opportunities across the globe, and why we should question the popularity of time-based assessments, student competition, adversarial teachers and more.
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Ben Blair holds a PhD in Philosophy and Education from Columbia University. He is a co-founder and President of Newlane University. Started in 2017, Newlane is an online university with a mission to make quality liberal arts higher education accessible to anyone on earth by breaking down barriers of cost, schedule, and geography. Ben and his wife Gabrielle have six children. After six years in Oakland, CA they now live in Normandy, France.
Amy is joined by author Koa Beck to discuss her book, White Feminism: From the Suffragettes to Influencers and Who They Leave Behind. This conversation defines white feminism, explains why it can't overcome patriarchy, and offers practical alternatives for white feminists to change tactics and make more meaningful change.
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Koa Beck is the author of White Feminism: From the Suffragettes to Influencers and Who They Leave Behind. Previously, she was the editor-in-chief of Jezebel, the executive editor of Vogue.com, and the senior features editor at MarieClaire.com. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Observer, The Guardian, and Esquire, among others. For her reporting prowess, she has been interviewed by the BBC and has appeared on many panels about gender and identity at the Harvard Kennedy School at Harvard University, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Brooklyn Historical Society, and Columbia Journalism School to name a few. She lives in Los Angeles.
Amy is joined by influencer Rosie Card for a riveting conversation about her career as a businesswoman, Temple clothes and contradictions, and the LDS Church's untapped potential for radical change.
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Rosemary Card is an entrepreneur, author and passionate advocate for women’s rights, inclusion and nuanced cultural conversations. She is the founder of Q.Noor and Card Wear and author of “Model Mormon” and “House of Light.” She firmly believes in the power of education and open conversation to bridge divides and promote understanding. She lives in Salt Lake with her husband, 2-year-old son, and two dogs.
Amy is joined by lawyer and author, Iris Mwanza, to discuss her novel - The Lion's Den - plus the status of patriarchy in Zambia, worldwide, and the critical role that books play in shaping public attitudes.
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Iris Mwanza is a Zambian-American author and gender equality advocate. Born and raised in Zambia, early exposure to inequality has been a driving force in her life - from becoming a lawyer, writing a Ph.D. dissertation on women and children’s rights, a career fighting for gender equality, and now a thriller with gender equality as its heart.
Iris has spent an inordinate amount of time studying and has law degrees from Cornell University and the University of Zambia, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in International Relations from Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. Her day job is Deputy Director of the Women in Leadership team in the Gender Equality Division of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and her night job is to write. Her debut novel The Lions’ Den took nine years of nights and weekends to finish.
Amy is joined by activist, advocate, and influencer Mr. Jones X to strategize around hot topics and confrontations, including DEI, Critical Race Theory, and bringing men into our movement for a more just future.
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Mr. Jones X is a well-known activist, political commentator, and courageous debater. His mastery of intersectionality and the importance of advocating from the bottom up distinguish him from the average content creator. These abilities have earned him numerous speaking engagements, invitations to panel discussions, and national attention for his debates. Jones is also an entrepreneur with TUFF (Transformative Uprising for Freedom), a socially conscious clothing company, in which his products are manufactured by a local minority women-owned business and the designs allow customers to wear their protest.
Amy is joined by adrienne maree brown to discuss her latest book, Loving Corrections, and learn about improving our accountability practices, plus what it takes to live in right relationship with the friends and family with whom we most disagree.
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adrienne maree brown (she/they) is growing a garden of healing ideas. Informed by decades of movement facilitation, somatics, science fiction scholarship and doula work, adrienne has nurtured Emergent Strategy, Pleasure Activism, Radical Imagination and Loving Correction as ideas and practices for transformation. adrienne is the NYT-bestselling author/editor of several published texts, a ritual singer-songwriter, co-generator of the Lineages of Change Tarot Deck, and co-creator/host of How to Survive the End of the World podcast with Autumn Brown. adrienne’s latest book Loving Corrections is now available from AK Press.
Amy is joined by Dr. Lexie Kite to revisit her book, More Than A Body: Your Body Is an Instrument, Not an Ornament, exploring the ways women and girls are looked at, predatory practices of the beauty industry, plus how to escape the sea of objectification and come home to your whole self.
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Dr. Lexie Kite is co-author of the book More Than a Body: Your Body Is an Instrument, Not an Ornament and co-director of the nonprofit Beauty Redefined, along with her twin sister Dr. Lindsay Kite. They both received PhDs from the University of Utah in the study of female body image and have become leading experts in body image resilience and media literacy. Authors of numerous studies and books have cited Lindsay and Lexie’s original research and they have been featured in a variety of national media outlets, including The New York Times, CNBC, the Boston Globe, Slate, Shape, Glamour, Teen Vogue, and more.
Lindsay and Lexie help girls and women recognize and reject the harmful effects of objectification in their lives through their significant social media reach, online Body Image Resilience course and facilitator program for dieticians and therapists, their popular book (More Than a Body), and regular speaking engagements for thousands of people of all ages. Lexie lives in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Amy is joined by Beatriz Albina, NP, MPH and host of the Feminist Wellness Podcast to discuss the wear and tear of patriarchy on our nervous systems plus practical strategies for overcoming "good-girl training" and restoring our dysregulated bodies.
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Beatriz Victoria Albina (she/her) is a Master Certified Somatic Life Coach, UCSF-trained Family Nurse Practitioner and Breathwork Meditation Guide. She helps humans socialized as women realize that they are their own best healers by reconnecting with their bodies and minds so they can break free from, codependency, perfectionism, and people-pleasing, and reclaim their joy. She is the of the Feminist Wellness Podcast, is trained in Somatic Experiencing, holds a master's degree in public health from Boston University and a B.A. in Latin American Studies from Oberlin College. Beatriz has been working in health & wellness for rover 20 years and lives on occupied Munsee Lenape territory in New York.
beatrizalbina.com/bdp
Amy is joined by journalist Elle Reeve to discuss her book, Black Pill: How I Witnessed the Darkest Corners of the Internet Come to Life, Poison Society, and Capture American Politics. This conversation establishes the histories and intersections of incels, the alt right, and white supremacy movements, plus these subcultures' plans to strip away women's rights and what we can actually do about it.
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Elle Reeve is a CNN correspondent whose work has won numerous awards, including the Emmy, the Peabody, and more. Her writing has appeared in VICE, The New Republic, New York magazine, Elle, The Atlantic, and The Daily Beast. She lives in New York.
Amy is joined by advocate and influencer Paige Connell (@sheisapaigeturner) to discuss the slew of household work which women still disproportionally manage for our families, the mental load of motherhood, plus ways we can change the culture and make this invisible labor visible.
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Paige Connell, a working mom of four, shares her insights about motherhood and careers, the mental load, and relationships. She's a fierce advocate for affordable childcare and paid leave, she’s been featured in Scary Mommy, The Today Show, and more!
In our first episode of Season Five, Amy is joined by Sharon McMahon to discuss her book, The Small and the Mighty, honoring the histories of overlooked but world-changing women in America's history and discussing how we can all gain wisdom and take heart from their bold examples.
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Sharon McMahon is a #1 New York Times bestselling author, educator, and host of the chart-topping podcast Here’s Where It Gets Interesting. McMahon became known as "America’s Government Teacher" during the 2020 election for her viral efforts to combat political misinformation. Her knack for breaking down complex topics with clarity, humor, and a steadfast commitment to facts has attracted a community of one and a half million followers—affectionately called the “Governerds.” McMahon's newsletter, The Preamble, is one of the largest publications on Substack, providing historical context and non-partisan insights to help readers navigate today’s political landscape. Her debut book, The Small and the Mighty, has been celebrated as one of the year’s top reads by Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and Goodreads, highlighting the unsung heroes who shaped America.
Beyond education, Sharon McMahon has led philanthropic initiatives that have raised over $11 million to address critical needs, from medical debt relief to disaster recovery. She inspires audiences with a message of hope: history shows us that even small actions can create powerful change.
Welcome to Season Five of Breaking Down Patriarchy. This season we'll be talking with incredible guests who will give you all kinds of ideas of things you can do right now to deconstruct patriarchy in your own life and to make a positive difference in your community.
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In this updated episode, originally aired in Season Two, Amy is joined by Dr. Kristin Neff to discuss the generative power of anger, the danger of rote gender roles, and the radical power of self-compassion.
Kristin Neff (she/her) received her doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley, and is currently an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin.
During Kristin’s last year of graduate school she became interested in Buddhism and has been practicing meditation in the Insight Meditation tradition ever since. While doing her post-doctoral work she decided to conduct research on self-compassion – a central construct in Buddhist psychology and one that had not yet been examined empirically. Kristin is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, creating a scale to measure the construct almost 20 years ago. She has been recognized as one of the world’s most influential research psychologists. In addition to writing numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic, she is author of the book Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, and her latest Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power and Thrive.
In conjunction with her colleague Dr. Chris Germer, she has developed an empirically supported training program called Mindful Self-Compassion, which is taught by thousands of teachers worldwide. They co-authored The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook as well as Teaching the Mindful Self-Compassion Program: A Guide for Professionals. She is also co-founder of the nonprofit Center for Mindful Self-Compassion.
Amy is joined by Ben Blair to discuss Gabrielle Blair's Ejaculate Responsibly: A Whole New Way to Think About Abortion, plus contraception, sex education, and how to get to the roots of unwanted pregnancy.
Amy is joined by Jen Lumanlan to discuss her book, Parenting Beyond Power: How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your Family and the World, exploring the ways power-over parenting teaches patriarchy to the next generation, plus needs-based alternatives and practice scenarios to help listeners put these anti-patriarchal parenting approaches into use.
Jen Lumanlan, M.S., M.Ed., (she/her) obtained Bachelor’s degrees (Forestry, English) from the University of California, Berkeley and a Master’s in Environmental Management from Yale University and enjoyed a career in sustainability consulting before having her daughter, when she realized she was in for her toughest challenge yet. She went back to school for a Master’s in psychology focused on child development and another in education to understand how to raise her child, and launched a podcast, Your Parenting Mojo, to share what she was learning with others.
Amy is joined by Ashley Brichter of Birthsmarter to discuss her journey into doula work, the witch hunt against midwifery, and how through education and advocacy we can create better birth stories for ourselves and our children.
Ashley Brichter is an educator, birth worker, consultant, and entrepreneur. She is a champion for maternal health and for systemic reforms to improve the lives of families by rebalancing division of labor at home and funding parental leave, universal healthcare, and early childhood education. She founded Birthsmarter in 2019, which provides unbiased, inclusive, and award-winning practical wisdom and guidance to the next generation of families. Ashley is a proud Bi-Co graduate and currently lives in Salty Lake City with her husband and two kids. She a Certified Fair Play Facilitator, a Tory Burch Fellow, and she sits on the board of ProNatal Fitness.
Amy is joined by Dr. MaryCatherine McDonald to discuss her book, Unbroken, exploring the ways we talk (or don't talk) about trauma, the wear and tear of patriarchy on our nervous systems, plus exercises for responding to trauma, grounding, and empowering ourselves.
MaryCatherine McDonald, PhD, is a research professor and life coach who specializes in the psychology of trauma, stress, and resilience. She has been researching, lecturing, and publishing on neuroscience, psychology, and the lived experience of trauma and stress for over a decade. She's passionate about destigmatizing trauma, stress, and mental health issues in general, as well as reframing our understanding of trauma in order to better understand and treat it. After receiving her master's degree at The New School, where she researched traumatic loss and mourning, she went on to complete her PhD at Boston University. She has published several research articles and book chapters, as well as three books on trauma. Her most recent book came out in March 2023 with Sounds True Publishing and is called Unbroken: The Trauma Response Is Never Wrong, and Other Things You Need to Know to Take Back Your Life.
Amy is joined by friend Kristy Carter to discuss how the institution of divorce always has and continues to fail women, placing divorcees and their children at risk. Kristy bravely shares her personal story of re-starting life in a society which continues to treat women like children.
Amy is joined by Dr. Sarah Hernandez to discuss her book, We Are the Stars: Colonizing and Decolonizing the Oceti Sakowin Literary Tradition exploring the devastating affects of missionary mistranslations and the ongoing effort to reclaim sacred stories in the Oceti Sakowin tradition.
Sarah Hernandez (Sicangu Lakota) is an assistant professor of Native American literature and the director of the Institute for American Indian Research at the University of New Mexico. She is the literature and legacy officer for the Oak Lake Writers Society, an Oceti Sakowin-led nonprofit for Dakota, Nakota, and Lakota writers. Under Sarah’s leadership, the Society launched #NativeReads: Great Books from Indigenous Communities, a national reading campaign that increases knowledge and awareness of the Oceti Sakowin literary tradition. She has also published articles in the Wicazo Sa Review, Studies in American Indian Literature, English Language Notes, and Great Plains Quarterly.
Sarah's book, We Are the Stars: Colonizing and Decolonizing the Oceti Sakowin Literary Tradition, was published February 2023 by the University of Arizona Press in the U.S. and the University of Regina Press in Canada.
Amy is joined by Dr. Julianne Newmark to discuss the book Red Bird, Red Power: The Life and Legacyof Zitkala-Ša by Tad Lewandowski and dive deep into the story of author, activist, and artistZitkala-Ša.
Dr. Julianne Newmark is the Director of Technical & Professional Communication and Assistant Chair for Core Writing at the University of New Mexico. As a researcher, she focuses on usability/UX/UCD and TPC pedagogy. She also teaches, conducts research, and publishes in Indigenous Studies, particularly concerning early-20th-century Native activist writers’ rhetorically impactful bureaucratic writing, particularly in Bureau of Indian Affairs contexts. In recent years, she has received multiple grants to fund archival research for this project, including grants from CCCC/NCTE and the American Philosophical Society. Her second monograph is provisionally titled "Reports of Agency: Retrieving Indigenous Professional Communication in Dawes Era Indian Bureau Documents.” Her 2015 book The Pluralist Imagination from East to West in American Literature was published by University of Nebraska Press. She is Editor-in-Chief of Xchanges, a Writing Studies ejournal.
Amy uses Dr. Henrietta Mann's book, Cheyenne Arapaho Education, to explore the history of the Cheyenne (Tsitsistas) people of the Great Plains, investigating historical gender roles, the devastating effects of white supremacy and colonialism, and the shameful history of American Indian Boarding Schools.
Amy is joined by Hitha Palepu to discuss her book, We're Speaking: The Life Lesson of Kamala Harris, and learn more about Vice President Harris's history, the breadth and depth of her experience, and the mold-breaking significance of her current presidential campaign.
Hitha Palepu is a woman of multitudes: a feminist, a lifelong politics enthusiast, a daughter of immigrants, and a mother raising feminist sons. These multitudes spill into her multi-hyphenated career as an entrepreneur, investor, writer, and speaker. Hitha’s passion for the news and politics is captured in #5SmartReads, a Webby honored social series that shares five must-read articles every day to keep our community informed without being overwhelmed. Hitha's longtime blog, Hitha on the Go, established her as an authority on lifestyle topics and gave way to her book and collaborations with leading brands such as Headspace, Google, and Northwestern Mutual. Her book How to Pack was published by Clarkson Potter in 2017, and her book We're Speaking: The Life Lessons of Kamala Harris was published in 2021.
As CEO of Roshan Pharmaceuticals, Hitha oversees financing, partnerships, and strategy for the company. Hitha also puts her money where her values are through early-stage investing. A partner in Adama Ventures, which is her family office, she has invested in innovative companies primarily founded by women and focused on women. She is a sought-after speaker on politics and the news, investing, entrepreneurship, work-life juggle, and motherhood.
Amy is joined by Osprey Orielle Lake, author of The Story is in Our Bones: How Worldviews and Climate Justice Can Remake a World in Crisis, to confront the damage that patriarchy and endless economic growth have caused to our planet, discuss the realities of climate disaster, and talk about the ways we can still save our living world.
Osprey Orielle Lake is the founder and executive director of the Women's Earth and Climate Action Network, or WECAN. She works internationally with grassroots, BIPOC, and Indigenous leaders, policymakers, and diverse coalitions to build climate justice, resilient communities, and a just transition to a decentralized, democratized, clean energy future. She sits on the executive committee for the Global Alliance for the Rights of Nature and on the steering committee for the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty. Osprey's writing about climate justice, relationships with nature, women in leadership, and other topics has been featured in The Guardian, Earth Island Journal, The Ecologist, Ms. Magazine, and many other publications. She's the author of the award winning books Uprisings for the Earth: Reconnecting Culture with Nature and The Story is in Our Bones: How Worldviews and Climate Justice Can Remake a World in Crisis.
Amy is joined by Heather Sundahl & Katie Ludlow Rich of the Exponent II to discuss their book 50 Years of Exponent II, explore the history of this essential publication, and celebrate the history and future of Mormon feminism.
Heather Sundahl believes in the power of stories. In the pursuit of this, she has volunteered with Exponent II for twenty-eight years. As a writer and editor, Heather works to amplify the voices of marginalized folks and has collected the oral histories of Batswana, South African, Native American, and queer Mormon women. She received an MA in English from BYU in 1994 and an MA in Marriage & Family Therapy from UVU in 2023. Heather currently works at a residential treatment center where she helps her teenage clients find narratives that promote growth and healing. She lives in Orem, Utah.
Katie Ludlow Rich is a writer and independent scholar of Mormon women's history. Her work focuses on centering women's voices and their agentive decisions even when functioning within a patriarchal tradition. She has a bachelor's in history and a master's in English, both from Brigham Young University. Her writing has appeared in Exponent II, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, The Journal of Mormon History, and The Salt Lake Tribune. She lives in Saratoga Springs, Utah.
Amy is joined by V, author of The Vagina Monologues, to discuss her revolutionary writing, the power of apologies, and the urgent need for all of us to take action against late-stage psychotic patriarchy.
V (formerly Eve Ensler) is the Tony award-winning playwright, activist, performer, and author of the Obie award-winning theatrical phenomenon The Vagina Monologues, which has been published in over 48 languages, performed in over 140 countries, and heralded by The New York Times as one of the "best American plays" of the past 25 years.
Amy is joined by Levi Murray to explore the damage which patriarchy causes to men, how systems of oppression cultivate emotional immaturity and psychopathy, and discuss the ways we can heal the harms of patriarchy and become more fully ourselves.
Levi Murray is a native of New Mexico and has been living in Colorado for almost 20 years. Murray works as the community health dentist, practicing in Southern Colorado. He and his wife Barbara have four kids. His hobbies include running and engaging int he work of preaching anti-patriarchal theology, a work he says feels like a necessary part of becoming more fully human.
Amy is joined by artist J. Kirk Richards to discuss challenging themes in his artwork, responses from the LDS Church and community, and how an artistic vision can push our culture to become more equitable, inclusive, and loving.
J. Kirk Richards is a contemporary artist whose work engages with themes of antiquity, religion, spirituality, equality, and love. His work asks questions about the modern application and implementation of religion relating to historical narratives and mythologies. His work often prioritizes the poetry of religious text over dogma or historical accuracy. Stylistically it often bridges or walks a tightrope between classical and abstract expression. In 2020, Richards founded a mixed-use art space, including studio rentals, a gallery that hosts monthly themed exhibits by living professional and semi-professionals, and a continued education art academy.
Amy is joined by Emily Nielsen Jones & Kazi Mghendi to discuss their project -- The Girl Child and Her Long Walk to Freedom -- a faith-based organization seeking to spread awareness, share resources, and organize women and allies to push back against global patriarchy.
Emily Nielsen Jones is a donor-activist engaged in promoting human equality, justice, and peace around the world. She is particularly passionate and engaged in the nexus of faith, gender, and development and working to mobilize our faith traditions to more fully and unambiguously embrace gender equality. In her role at the Imago Dei Fund, Emily has helped the foundation to adopt a “gender-lens” in its grantmaking with a particular focus on partnering with inspired female change agents, locally and around the world, to build bridges of peace and create a world where girls and women can thrive and achieve their full human potential. Emily brings a contemplative posture to both faith and philanthropy and is passionate about supporting the inner lives of change agents to lead with love and be their best selves in the challenging work they do.
Emily is actively engaged in the women-led philanthropy movement, and is the author of numerous articles. She is the recipient of the Christians for Biblical Equality 2013 Micah Award and was named a 2014 Women’s eNews “21 Leaders of the 21st Century” honoree. Emily has served on various boards including the Boston Women’s Fund, Women Thrive, New England International Donor Network, Girl Rising, Union Theological Seminary, Nomi Network Campaign Leaders Council, and Sojourners Founders’ Circle. Emily has a BA in Government from Dartmouth College and a Master’s in Educational Policy from Boston University. She is a trained Spiritual Director through both the Selah Spiritual Direction Certificate Program and the Still Harbor Spiritual Direction Practicum.
Kazi Mghendi is passionate about leadership development at all levels and uses her experience and expertise to identify and support community-led solutions to ending injustices caused by poverty and inequalities. With over 12 years of experience in humanitarian, leadership training, social development, community development, and financial inclusion, she leverages her expertise to solve some of the world’s challenging and complex issues, including improving education standards in rural communities in Kenya. Kazi joins The Girl Child & Her Long Walk to Freedom team as a Project Manager to support the project and its mission to liberate our societies from patriarchal beliefs, values, and cultures that have seen girls and women as lesser humans in society for generations. Her focus and passion is in international development, leadership coaching, fundraising, partnerships/relationship management, project/program management, systems design, and strategic thinking to solve community challenges.
Kazi founded Elimu Fanaka, a non-profit organization impacting public primary schools in rural underserved communities in Kenya through improving access to quality education and using systems change to create sustainable communities. She previously worked at Acumen, managing their East Africa Fellows Program and Academy, at Ongoza Institute as Stakeholder Engagement Manager, and at Adaptive Change Advisors as a Project Manager. She holds a bachelor’s degree in International Development with a concentration in Integrated Community Development from Daystar University and a Master’s in International Relations – Diplomacy and Foreign Affairs at the United States International University.
Amy is joined by comedian Natalie Madsento discuss her career as a woman in comedy, following her from her first stand-up set to the release of her new movie, Go West, exploring gender dynamics and the changing political landscape along the way.
Natalie Madsen is an actor, writer, producer, and director. She is best known for her eight years on the sketch comedy show Studio C, where she was an original cast member and writer. She has since co-founded JK! Studios, a creative house and production company that produces TV shows, web series, and feature films. She has three children, one husband, and a slightly concerning caffeine addiction.
Amy is joined by author Monette Chilson to discuss the biblical figures of Sophia, Lilith, and Eve, unpacking these figures as female archetypes and learning how we can reclaim them.
Monette Chilson founded WomanSpirit Reclamation to support women in navigating their awakening from patriarchal indoctrination through online courses and community. She's written and spoken about the divine feminine for the past decade, authoring Sophia Rising: Awakening Your Sacred Wisdom Through Yoga, and My Name Is Lilith. Chilson also edited Original Resistance: Reclaiming Lilith, Reclaiming Ourselves, and developed its companion curriculum.
Additional Resources
WomanSpirit Reclamation
The Girl Child & Her Long Walk to Freedom
Sophia Rising: Awakening Your Sacred Wisdom Through Yoga, by Monette Chilson
Original Resistance: Reclaiming Lilith, Reclaiming Ourselves: A Girl God Anthology, edited by Monette Chilson, Trista Hendren and Pat Daly,
My Name is Lilith, by Monette Chilson, Illustrated by Arna Baartz
Eve, Our Mythic Mother: Exposing the Lies of Patriarchy, by Patricia Lynn Reilly
Amy is joined by school librarian, Casey O'Leary, to confront the alarming increase of book bans and challenges in recent years, exploring where these challenges are coming from, why parents are concerned, and how librarians and authors are pushing back again censorship.
Casey O'Leary is a K-12 school media specialist in Indianapolis, Indiana. She has a bachelor of science in elementary education and a master of library science, both from Indiana University. O'Leary served as a public children's librarian and manager for 10 years prior to moving into school librarianship. She is active in the American Library Association and recently served on the Children's Literature Legacy Award Committee and is also a reviewer for School Library Journal.
Amy is joined by sex coach and podcaster Danielle Savory to explore our potential for pleasure, practices for overcoming guilt, and how women can rewire our beliefs and become more present in our magical bodies.
Danielle Savory is a master-certified coach, podcast host, and expert in the fields of neuropsychology, mindfulness, sexual pleasure, and intimacy. As the host of the popular podcast, It's My Pleasure, Savory has explored a wide range of topics related to sexuality, relationships, and personal growth, empowering women to embrace their sexuality and prioritize their pleasure. She has over 10 years of experience coaching hundreds of women with her proven process of increasing desire and expanding orgasmic capacity.
Amy is joined by Dr. Kabria Baumgartner to discuss her book, In Pursuit of Knowledge: Black Women and Educational Activism in Antebellum America, and explore the triumphs and struggles of young Black women seeking an education in pre-Civil War America.
Dr. Kabria Baumgartner is a historian of the 19th-century United States, specializing in the history of education, African American women's and gender history, and New England studies. She's the author of In Pursuit of Knowledge: Black Women and Educational Activism in Antebellum America, which tells the story of Black girls and women who fought for their educational right in the 19th-century United States. Her book has won four prizes, including the prestigious 2021 American Educational Research Association's Outstanding Book Award.
Amy is joined by Myriam Ben Farhat to discuss her experience of patriarchy and gender roles in Tunisia, Spain, and the United States across her careers in law, art, and beyond.
Myriam Ben Farhat is an entrepreneur, originally from Tunisia. She has two master's degrees, one in financial and public law, and one in contemporary art. She also studied professional coaching and got her certification from the International Federation of Coaching. In 2020, Ben Farhat joined the Play Magnus Group to become chief people and culture officer. When the company was acquired in December 2022 by Chess.com, she became Head of L&D and DEI, and currently leads the "Chess is for everyone" initiative.
Amy is joined by sisters Alex Peterson and Bronwen Pugh who share the alarming data surrounding child sexual abuse before telling their own staggering story of survival and offering hope in the form of The Safe Child Project, a new initiative helping to spread awareness and to keep children safe.
Alex Peterson serves on the board of Prevent Child Abuse Utah and is the Director of Strategic Development & Impact for The Policy Project. Formerly, Alex worked for a United States Congressman before serving as the National Director of Donor Relations and personal aide to Ann Romney during Mitt Romney's 2012 presidential campaign. Alex graduated from California State University, Long Beach, with honors, followed by an M.Ed. Policy from Harvard University. Alex and her husband Ben reside in Utah with their four children.
Bronwen Pugh lives in Marin County, CA with her husband and 3 spunky daughters. Her happy place is in nature with her family. She loves to sail, surf, paddle board, bike, rock climb, and ski/snowboard. Prior to raising her children, Bronwen received her JD from UCLA Law and worked for the ACLU. She is currently Operations Lead for Conduit Tech, a climate-focused software startup.
Amy is joined by Dr. Susan Madsen to discuss the current gender inequality experienced by girls and women in Utah, what we can do to create change, and why we need A Bolder Way Forward.
Dr. Susan R. Madsen is the Karen Haight Huntsman endowed professor of leadership in the John M. Huntsman School of Business at Utah State University. She's also the founding director of the Utah Women in Leadership Project and is leading a statewide social change movement titled A Bolder Way Forward. Professor Madsen and her team have written extensive resources on women's leadership and they host many events each year to support the mission of their work. Susan is also a well-known global scholar, authoring or editing nine books and publishing hundreds of articles, chapters, and reports. Her research has been featured in the U.S. News & World Report, The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and she is a regular contributor to Forbes. She's a well-known speaker in local, national, and international settings, and she's presented at Argentina's Parliament Palace, the House of Commons in England, Lithuania's Presidential Palace, the Costa Rica Parliament, and NGO sessions at the United Nations. She and her husband, Greg, are the proud parents of four adult children and six grandchildren.
Amy is joined by FIDE Grandmaster, Maurice Ashley, to discuss his incredible journey from not making his high school chess team to becoming the world's first Black Grandmaster, plus how patriarchy manifests in the world of competitive chess, and valuable life-lessons we can all take from this remarkable game.
Maurice Ashley is an American chess player, author, and commentator. In 1999, he earned the FIDE title of Grandmaster, making him the first Black person to do so. Ashley is well known as a commentator for high profile chess events. He also spent many years teaching chess and is the author of Chess for Success, Move by Move, and a children's book, The Life-Changing Magic of Chess.
Amy is joined by Dr. Dee Mosbacher and Dr. Boden Sandstrom to discuss their documentary, Radical Harmonies, exploring the history of the women's music movement, Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, and how countless lesbian lives were transformed through lyrics and song.
Dee Mosbacher, M.D. Ph.D., is a psychiatrist and an Academy Award nominated documentary filmmaker. Dr. Mosbacher has been an activist for women's health since the early 1970's. She has directed and/or produced a total of nine documentaries on homophobia, including Out for a Change, Addressing Homophobia in Women's Sports, All God's Children, De Colores, and No Secret Anymore: The Times of Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon. Dee and her spouts, who is also a psychiatrist, Dr. Nanette Gartrell, worked to eliminated homophobia in the DSM. Dr. Mosbacher is the founder and president of Woman Vision, a nonprofit organizations whose mission is to promote social justice through the production of educational films and video.
Boden Sandstrom, Ph.D., was the winner of the American Musicology Society Philip Brett Award. She was a leading sound engineer on the women's music circuit, and in 1975 she founded Woman Sound with singer Casse Culver. She toured with many performers, including Chris Williamson and Lily Tomlin, and did sound for the major women's music festivals and concerts at the time. She has a Ph.D. in Ethnomusicology, an M.S. in Audio Technology, and an M.L.S. in Library Science. Before retiring, Dr. Sandstrom was a lecturer and technical coordinator in the School of Music at the University of Maryland.
Amy is joined by creators Alex Masse & Frankie Gunn to discuss their podcast, I'm Feeling Queer Today, and explore the critical importance of listening to queer youth, plus Alex and Frankie share guidance for those questioning their identity and for those interested in becoming better allies to the LGBTQIA+ community.
Alex K. Masse is a writer, musician, and communications specialist from what is colonially known as British Columbia. Their work has been seen everywhere from the Scholastic Writing Awards to Autostraddle, as well as in collaboration with Penelope Scott, Vancouver Pride, Simon Fraser University, and more. They’re also a neurodivergent nonbinary lesbian, which greatly affects their process. When not writing, they’re making music, and when not making music, they’re writing. Occasionally, though, they can be seen working on their degree, or cozied up with their cat.
Frankie Gunn is a transmasc interdisciplinary artist, musician and producer, currently working as a gardener in the Hudson Valley in upstate New York. Having not attended a traditional 4 year college, Frankie has acquired an a la carte education, doing everything from hairdressing and sound engineering to farming and agriculture. The thread that ties their work together is a hands on approach and a love of all things beautiful.
Amy is joined by storyteller and founder of The Trevor Project, Celeste Lecesne, to discuss his incredible life of acting and activism, plus how a story can save a life, and exciting new ways our world is changing for (and thanks to) queer youth.
James Celeste Lecesne is an American actor, author, screenwriter, and LGBT rights activist, best known for the Academy Award winning short film 'Trevor'. Lecesne has written several books, including Absolute Brightness and Virgin Territory, and is also active in the entertainment industry as an actor and producer. In 1998 Lecesne co-founded The Trevor Project, a nonprofit focused on suicide prevention for LGBT youth.
Amy is joined by activist and advocate Troy Williams to discuss his incredible coming out journey from the Eagle Forum to Equality Utah, plus how changing our perspective can help turn enemies into allies, and why people of all identities are needed in the struggle for equality.
For the past two decades, Troy Williams has been a community organizer playing pivotal roles in passing laws and protections for the LGBTQ community in Utah, including the historic Utah Compromise, a statute against LGBTQ and racially inclusive hate crimes, and a ban on LGBTQ conversation therapy. In 2010, he co-wrote the award-winning play, "The Passion of Sister Dottie S. Dixon" with the late Charles Lynn Frost, and has since worked on various movies and series centered around real-life stories and people from the Mormon faith. He became the executive director of Equality Utah in the fall of 2014 and was named one of the nation's 50 LGBTQ Champions of Pride in 2022 by The Advocate magazine.
Amy is joined by author Kara Loewentheil to discuss her book, Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get It Out, plus strategies to change our thought patterns, break out of sexist social conditioning, and live our values from the inside out.
After graduating Harvard Law School, litigating reproductive rights, and running a think tank at Columbia University, Kara Loewentheil did what every Ivy League feminist lawyer should do: quit a prestigious academic career to become a life coach! Less than a decade after leaving the law, Kara has taught hundreds of thousands of women how to close the “Brain Gap” that keeps them feeling anxious and dis-empowered. Her work enables women to identify the ways that sexist social messages impact their brains and how to rewire their thought patterns to create true, authentic confidence from within. Her internationally top-ranked podcast, UnFck Your Brain, has been recommended by sources from The New York Times to the We Can Do Hard Things* Podcast with Glennon Doyle.
Amy is joined by Sola Mahfouz & Malaina Kapoor to discuss their book, Defiant Dreams: The Journey of an Afghan Girl Who Risked Everything for Education, and explore the ongoing struggle for women's education in Afghanistan as well as Sola's remarkable journey from Kandahar to quantum computing.
Sola Mahfouz was born in Afghanistan and immigrated to the United States in 2016 to attend college. She is currently a quantum computing researcher at Tufts University Quantum Information Group. In her free time, she is focusing on reading and studying different styles of fiction, as well as writing about the rugged homeland he's left behind.
Malaina Kapoor is a writer from Redwood City, California. She previously served as a fellow at PEN America, where she advocated for international hu man rights, press freedom,. and election integrity. Kapoor served on the management team of a refugee resettlement organization an was the producer of In Deep, a nationally syndicated public affairs radio broadcast program. She as received national awards for her poetry, personal essays, and short stories, and will graduate from Stanford University in 2025.
Amy is joined by Dr. Randa Tawil to discuss the history of Palestine, how the ongoing atrocities in Gaza are a feminist issue, and the most effective ways for everyday people to take action for peace.
Dr. Randa Tawil is an assistant professor of Women and Gender Studies at Texas Christian University. She received her doctorate in the Department of American Studies at Yale University and she specializes in Migration and Mobility, Ethnic Studies, and Arab Middle Eastern Studies. Her manuscript, Race in Transit: Mobilities Between Greater Syria and North America, examines knowledge production around the "good" and "bad" migrant from Syria through the lens of mobility. She has articles published in academic journals, The Washington Post, and Open Democracy, and is a member of the Palestinian Feminist Collective.
Amy is joined by author Lisa Selin Davis to discuss her book, Housewife: Why Women Still Do It All and What to Do Instead, detailing the surprisingly recent invention of the 'traditional' housewife, plus laundry, lobotomies, and why modern day tradwives might have more equitable homes than we imagine.
Lisa Selin Davis is a critically acclaimed essayist and journalist whose work has appeared in major publications including the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Time, The Free Press, and many others. She is the author of Tomboy as well as two novels and she lives in New York City with her family. Her most recent book is Housewife: Why Women Still Do It All and What to Do Instead.
Amy is joined by Dr. Elora Shehabuddin to discuss her book, Sisters in the Mirror: A History of Muslim Women and the Global Politics of Feminism, exploring historical and contemporary misunderstandings of Muslim women, how Western and Muslim feminisms influence one another, and what each of us can do to live as better allies.
Dr. Elora Shehabuddin is a professor of gender and women's studies and global studies at UC Berkeley. Previously, she was a professor of transnational Asian studies and core faculty in the Center for Study of Women, Gender, and Sexuality at Rice University. Before that, she was an assistant professor of women's studies and political science at UC Irvine. She received her BA in social studies from Harvard and her PhD in politics from Princeton. Shehabuddin is the author of many, many articles and multiple books, including the award-winning Sisters in the Mirror: A History of Muslin Women and the Politics of Global Feminism, which was published in 2021.
Amy is joined by Jane Boulware to discuss her book, Worthy, plus her meteoric rise from being a used rug vendor to senior leadership at Microsoft, and how we can all learn to overcome our "un"s and pursue our ambitions.
Jane Boulware is a global business leader and former Microsoft Executive. Married to her high school sweetheart, Jane lives in Washington state and works to make a difference, serving on boards including Boys & Girls Clubs, writing, speaking, and consulting. Jane is passionate about helping people claim their worth and forge the future. Her joy is being outdoors with her family.
Amy is joined by Dr. Lisa DiGiovanni to discuss the histories of state violence in Spain and Chile, the critical concept of 'militarized masculinity', and how everyday people can resist the rise of militarism and hyper-masculinity.
Dr. Lisa DiGiovanni is a professor of contemporary Spanish and Larin American literature and film at Keene State College. She has a joint appointment as Chair for the Department of Modern Languages and Culture and as a professor int he Holocaust and Genocide Studies Department. her area of expertise is the twentieth-century dictatorial violence in Spain and Chile. As a professor, she teaches introductory to advanced level courses that integrate language, literature, and film and studies state violence as social control.
Amy is joined by author Celeste Davis to discuss the long history of Mormon feminism, how women's stories have been erased and hidden, and what hope remains for an egalitarian future in the LDS Church.
Celeste Davis is the writer behind the popular Substack 'non-spiritual non-direction'. She is a certified spiritual director through the Chaplaincy Institute, specializing in LDS faith transitions. She lives in Spokane, Washington with her husband and four kids.
Amy is joined by Lē Isaac Weaver and Melanie Springer Mock of Christian Feminism Today to discuss the state of gender relations in evangelical communities, Biblical Feminism, purity culture, and the dangerous politization of religious beliefs.
Lē Isaac Weaver (they/them) is a creative and technical professional who assists artists, businesses, and nonprofits to create beauty and change with technology. Much of their work involves various aspects of spirituality and religion. Weaver is the author of numerous articles and reviews on Christian Feminism Today as well as the blog, Where She Is. They contributed the chapter 'Genderful' to the book Women Experiencing Faith. Weaver is a recipient of the Brian Eckstein Faithful Servant Award from the Q Christian Network.
Melanie Springer Mock is an award-winning professor and author, a mother, a runner. an image-bearer of our creator. Melanie is a professor of English at George Fox University, Newberg, Ore. In 2009, she won the GFU Undergraduate Faculty of the Year award, and in 2015, she received the GFU Undergraduate Researcher of the Year award. She is the author or co-author of five books, including most recently Worthy: Finding Yourself in a World Expecting Someone Else (Herald Press, 2018). Her essays and reviews have appeared in The Nation, Christian Feminism Today, The Chronicle of Higher Education, and Mennonite World Review, among other places. She has finished 50 marathons, a dozen or more triathlons, and countless training runs. She lives in Dundee, Ore., with her husband and two teen sons.
Amy is joined by author and preacher Liz Cooledge Jenkins to discuss her book, Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism, and dig into ongoing tensions between egalitarianism and complementarianism, plus advice for individuals no longer feeling aligned with their church community.
Liz Cooledge Jenkins is a writer, preacher, former college campus minister, and the author of Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism. She writes at the intersections of faith, feminism, and social justice, and her work can be found at places like Sojourners, The Christian Century, Christians for Social Action, and Feminism and Religion, as well as her new substack, Growing into Kinship, and her blog: lizcooledgejenkins.com.
Amy is joined by journalist Dr. Leta Hong Fincher to discuss her book, Leftover Women: The Resurgence of Gender Inequality in China, as well as recent changes in Chinese gender relations, and the courageous women defying their state in search of a more equitable future.
Dr. Leta Hong Fincher has written for the New York Times, Washington Post, The Guardian, Dissent Magazine, Ms. Magazine, Harper’s Bazaar and others. As a long-time TV and radio journalist based in China, she won the Society of Professional Journalists Sigma Delta Chi Award, the Cowan Award for Humanitarian Reporting and other journalism honors for her reporting. The 10th anniversary edition of Leta's first book, Leftover Women: The Resurgence of Gender Inequality in China (2023), was named one of the best books of 2023 by China Books Review. Leta’s second book, Betraying Big Brother: The Feminist Awakening in China, was named one of the best books of the year by Vanity Fair, Newsweek, Foreign Policy Interrupted, Bitch Media and Autostraddle; it was also a New York Times “New and Noteworthy” pick. The New York Public Library named Betraying Big Brother one of its “essential reads on feminism” in 2020. The original edition of her book Leftover Women was named one of the top 5 China books of the year by the Asia Society’s ChinaFile and one of the best Asian books of the year by Asia House. It was on the New York Times list of recommended books on China in 2018 and on Book Riot’s list of 21 recommended Chinese history books in 2021.
Leta is the first American to receive a Ph.D. from Tsinghua University's Department of Sociology in Beijing. She graduated from Harvard University magna cum laude with a bachelor's degree in East Asian Languages and Civilizations and won a Harvard Foundation award for contribution to race relations. She was awarded a Shaw fellowship and Walter Shorenstein fellowship for her master's degree in East Asian Studies from Stanford University. She is currently a Research Associate at the Weatherhead East Asian Institute, Columbia University.
Amy is joined by historian Jill Burke to discuss her book, How to Be a Renaissance Woman: The Untold History of Beauty and Female Creativity, exploring cosmetics and beauty expectations of 15th-century Europe, and how the beauty industry continues to shape our culture today.
Jill Burke is a professor of Renaissance Visual and Material Cultures at the University of Edinburgh, a historian of the body and its visual representation, focusing on Italy and Europe from 1400-1700. She is currently the lead investigator of the Royal Society funded project 'Renaissance Goo,' working with soft-matter scientists to remake Renaissance cosmetic and skincare recipes. She talks regularly about Renaissance bodies on television, radio and podcasts, and she discusses the history of art and beauty on “Jill Burke’s Blog.” She lives in Edinburgh.
Amy is joined by scholar and author Dr. Karen Jo Torjesen to discuss her book, When Women Were Priests: Women's Leadership in the Early Church and the Scandal of Their Subordination in the Rise of Christianity. This discussion covers the overlooked history of women as bishops, patrons, and more, as well as the masculinization of the church and how the struggle for women's ordination continues.
Karen Jo Torjesen, Ph.D., is the Margo L. Goldsmith Chair of Women's Studies and Religion at Claremont Graduate School in California, and an associate of the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity. She is widely regarded as a leading authority on women in ancient Christianity.
Amy is joined by Christian Nunes, current President of the National Organization for Women for a discussion of NOW's history, overlooked feminist heroes, plus the fight for the Equal Rights Amendment and how to get involved in the largest feminist organization in America today.
Christian F. Nunes, MBA, MS, LCSW, became the National Organization for Women's President in August 2020. She was previously appointed Vice President by the board in May 2019. As the second African American president in the organization’s history, the youngest person of color, and the youngest president in more than 40 years, Nunes is leading the organization through an intersectional lens, bringing a diverse coalition of grassroots activists to work against structural sexism and racism.
Christian is a former NOW board member and committee chair, as well as a licensed clinical social worker, consultant, and woman-minority business owner. She is an active community organizer and public speaker, regularly featured at events such as the March for Black Women, Women’s March Events, and rallies around the country in support of the Equal Rights Amendment and immigration rights. Along with her activism for mental health, Christian has more than 20 years of experience advocating for children’s and women’s issues.
Amy is joined by comedian and activist Stacey Harkey to discuss the history of race and gender in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee of the 1960's, diving into the nuances of how white women and Black men can each hold the roles of both oppressor and oppressed.
Born in Dallas, Texas, Stacey Harkey considers himself to be a southerner to the core. Always curious and ever annoying he somehow graduated with a degree in Public Relations from Brigham Young University and wrote/acted for the sketch comedy tv show, Studio C. He currently owns a media company with his friends called JK! Studios. He loves playing soccer and the guitar while being equally bad at both. He also believes in the power of an embarrassing moment, a burnt meal, and a extremely difficult challenge.
Amy is joined by philosopher and author Mehrsa Baradaran to discuss her latest book, The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap, and explore the history of Black banking, intersections of race, gender, and economics, as well as how we can take control of our economic future to create a more equitable world for all.
Mehrsa Baradaran is a professor of law at UC Irvine Law School. She writes about banking law, financial inclusion, inequality, and the racial wealth gap. Her scholarship includes the books How The Other Half Banks and the award-winning The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap, both published by the Harvard University Press. Baradaran and her books have received significant national and international media coverage and have been featured in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Slate, American Banker, The Wall Street Journal, and Financial Times. On NPR's Marketplace, C-SPAN's Washington Journal, and PBS's NewsHour, and as part of TEDx at the University of Georgia. She has advised US senators and congressmen on policy, testified before the US Congress, and spoken at national and international forums like the US Treasury and the World Bank.
Amy is joined by author and activist Mikki Kendall to discuss her book, Hood Feminism: Notes from the Women That a Movement Forgot, and explore the lasting legacy of Jim Crow, the high expectations we place on women of color, and confront some of the ways in which white feminism has failed Black communities.
Mikki Kendall is a writer, diversity consultant, and occasional feminist; she has appeared on the BBC, NPR, The Daily Show, PBS, Good Morning America, MSNBC, Al Jazeera, WBEZ, and Showtime, and discusses race, feminism, police violence, tech, and pop culture at institutions and universities across the country. She is the author of the New York Times-bestselling HOOD FEMINISM (recipient of the Chicago Review of Books Award and named a best book of the year by BBC, Bustle, and TIME). She is also the author of AMAZONS, ABOLITIONISTS, AND ACTIVISTS, a graphic novel illustrated by A. D’Amico. Her essays can be found at TIME, the New York Times, The Guardian, the Washington Post, Essence, Vogue, The Boston Globe, NBC, and a host of other sites.
Amy is joined by philosopher and author Kate Manne to discuss her latest book, Unshrinking: How to Face Fatphobia, and dig deep into issues of body image, weight shaming, correlation v. causation, and how to create a more just society for people of all sizes.
Kate Manne is an associate professor at the Sage School of Philosophy at Cornell University, where she's been teaching since 2013. Before that, Manne was a junior fellow at the Harvard Society of Fellows from 2011 to 2013, and she did her graduate work in philosophy at MIT from 2006 to 2011. And before that, she was an undergrad at the University of Melbourne where she studied philosophy, logic, and computer science.
Today, Manne does moral philosophy, especially metaethics and moral psychology, feminist philosophy, and social philosophy. She also enjoys writing opinion pieces, essays, and reviews for a wider audience. She has published multiple highly acclaimed and widely read books, including Down Girl: The Logic of Misogyny in 2017, Entitled: How Male Privilege Hurts Women in 2020, and Unshrinking: How to Face Fatphobia.
Amy is joined by author Kate Moore to discuss her newest book, The Woman They Could Not Silence, exploring the story of Elizabeth Packard's abduction into an asylum, her triumphant fight for justice, and how mental health is wielded to discredit and silence women.
Kate Moore is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of The Radium Girls, which won the 2017 Goodreads Choice Award for Best History, was voted U.S. librarians’ favourite nonfiction book of 2017, and was named a Notable Nonfiction Book of 2018 by the American Library Association. A British writer based near Cambridge, UK, Moore writes across a variety of genres and has had multiple titles on the Sunday Times bestseller list. Her latest book is the critically acclaimed The Woman They Could Not Silence, which, among other accolades, was named runner-up for Best History in the 2021 Goodreads Choice Awards and a 2021 Booklist Editor's Choice.
Amy is joined by Former Representative Mary Chung Hayashi to discuss her book, Women in Politics, and the barriers which dissuade women from entering the political sphere including ambition gaps, the imagination barrier, perceptions of motherhood, and the challenge of fundraising.
Mary Chung Hayashi is an award-winning author, national healthcare leader, and former California State Assembly member. With a distinguished career in public service, Mary has spearheaded substantial reforms in mental health services, championed gender equality, and forged powerful, unprecedented partnerships for social causes that previously had no financial or public backing. Recognized as Legislator of the Year by the American Red Cross and the California Medical Association, Mary has also been featured on Red Book's Mothers and Shakers list and Ladies Home Journal's Women to Watch. As principal of public policy and advocacy solutions, she has successfully advised business and policy leaders on some of today's most complex public policy matters. Mary remains a steadfast proponent of social justice expansion and the rights of underrepresented communities.
Amy is joined by Dr. Michael Kaufman & Dr. Michael Kimmel to discuss their book The Guy’s Guide to Feminism and share the how men can overcome discomfort and guilt to become true feminist allies.
Michael Kaufman, PhD, is a writer of both fiction and nonfiction books. As an advisor, activist, and keynote speaker, he has developed innovative approaches to engage men and boys in promoting gender equality and positively transforming men’s lives. Over the past four decades, his work with the United Nations, governments, non-governmental organizations, corporations, trade unions, and universities has taken him to 50 countries. Michael is the co-founder of the White Ribbon Campaign, the largest effort in the world of men working to end violence against women. And he wrote the training program on sexual harassment used by tens of thousands of staff at the United Nations.
Michael Kimmel, PhD, is one of the world’s leading experts on men and masculinities. He was the SUNY Distinguished Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies at Stony Brook University. Among his many books are Manhood in America, Angry White Men, The Politics of Manhood, The Gendered Society, and the bestseller, Guyland: The Perilous World Where Boys Become Men. With funding from the MacArthur Foundation, he founded the Center for the Study of Men and Masculinities at Stony Brook in 2013. A tireless advocate of engaging men to support gender equality, Kimmel has lectured at more than 300 colleges, universities, and high schools. He has delivered the International Women’s Day Annual Lecture at the European Parliament, the European Commission, and the Council of Europe, and has worked with the Ministers of Gender Equality of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden in developing programs for boys and men. He consults widely with corporations, NGOs, and public sector organizations on gender equity issues. He was recently called “the world’s most prominent male feminist” in the Guardian newspaper in London.
Amy is joined by returning guest Sarah López to discuss the incredible texts, brilliant guests, and many lessons learned during Season 3 of Breaking Down Patriarchy.
Sarah López is a recent graduate from Boston University where she earned a Bachelor’s degree in International Relations (with a regional focus on Latin America) and two minors in Italian and Political Science. She is interested in substantive democracy, social movements, anti-racism, identity, migration, and Latin American politics, and aspires to obtain a Ph.D. and teach.
Amy is joined by Leatha Udayabhanu of Essentially Awake to discuss the daily work of anti-racism, de-colonialism, and holding ourselves accountable with self-compassion.
Leatha Udayabhanu is a de-colonial life coach, public speaker, and educator who guides people in healing the internalized legacies of colonization—in particular burnout, exhaustion, and shame—so they can show up in the world and fight for the collective liberation we need. She's an expert at distilling provocative and overwhelming topics down into fundamental and simple truths so folks can take practical and sustainable action in creating a more just and equitable world.
Amy is joined by Dr. Danielle Stewart to discuss Linda Nochlin's essay, "Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?", and examine the historical and contemporary hurdles faced by women artists.
Danielle Stewart is an art historian who specializes in the modern and contemporary art of the Americas. Her most recent publications investigate how mid-century Brazilian photography and popular media, especially illustrated magazines, helped to shape regional, national, and personal identities. Born and raised near San Francisco, California, educated in Utah, and a longtime resident of Harlem, New York, Danielle has also lived in Curitiba, Brazil, and Coventry in the United Kingdom. This broad range of environments fundamentally informs Danielle's research.
Danielle completed her Masters of Philosophy and PhD in Art History at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and her BA and MA degrees at Brigham Young University. From 2019 to 2020, Danielle was a fellow in the Princeton Mellon Initiative in Architecture, Urbanism, and the Humanities and the Princeton Institute for International and Regional Studies. From 2020-2023, she held the position of Assistant Professor of Latin American Art at the University of Warwick in the UK. Danielle has also held curatorial positions at the BYU Museum of Art and the Mount Vernon Hotel Museum in New York City. Her writing has appeared in publications sponsored by the Museu de Arte de São Paulo in Brazil, the Instituto Moreira Salles, the Fundación Cisneros, and La Universidad de los Andes, the College Art Association, the Latin American Studies Association, and The Space Between society.
Amy is joined by Dr. Wendy Lower to discuss her book, Hitler's Furies: German Women in the Nazi Killing Fields, and begin unpacking the complicated history of women's involvement in the Third Reich.
Wendy Lower is an American historian and a widely published author on the Holocaust and World War II. Since 2012, she holds the John K. Roth Chair at Claremont McKenna College in Claremont, California, and in 2014 was named the director of the Mgrublian Center for Human Rights at Claremont. As of 2016, she serves as the interim director of the Jack, Joseph and Morton Mandel Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC.
Lower's research areas include the history of Germany and Ukraine in World War II, the Holocaust, women's history, the history of human rights, and comparative genocide studies. Her 2013 book, Hitler's Furies: German Women in the Nazi Killing Fields, was translated into 21 languages and was a finalist for the 2013 National Book Award in the nonfiction category and for the National Jewish Book Award. Lower's The Ravine: A Family, A Photograph, A Holocaust Massacre Revealed (2021) received the National Jewish Book Award in the Holocaust category and was shortlisted for the Wingate Prize, and longlisted for a PEN.
Amy is joined by Dr. Riane Eisler to discuss the features of partnership models v. dominator models as well as their appearances in Neolithic Europe, the Third Reich, and in our own world today.
Riane Eisler is a social systems scientist, cultural historian, futurist, and attorney whose research, writing, and speaking has transformed the lives of people worldwide. Her newest work,Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future, co-authored with anthropologist Douglas Fry, shows how to construct a more equitable, sustainable, and less violent world based on Partnership rather than Domination.
Dr. Eisler is president of the Center for Partnership Systems (CPS), dedicated to research and education, Editor-in-Chief of the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies, an online peer-reviewed journal at the University of Minnesota that was inspired by her work, keynotes conferences nationally and internationally, has addressed the United Nations General Assembly, the U.S. Department of State, and Congressional briefings, has spoken at corporations and universities worldwide on applications of the partnership model introduced in her work, and is Distinguished Professor at Meridian University, which offers PhDs and Master’s degrees based on Eisler’s Partnership-Domination social scale.
Amy is joined by Dr. Sue Blundell to discuss her book Women in Ancient Greece and explore the roles of women in ancient Grecian society as well as representations of female deities.
Sue Blundell is a playwright and lecturer in Classical Studies. Many of her plays have been inspired by ancient myths, ideas, and objects. More recently she’s been exploring the lives of artists and composers, such as Auguste Rodin and Benjamin Britten. Interaction between actors and musicians has become a vital element in her work. Sue wrote her PhD thesis on Greek and Roman philosophy; more specifically, on Epicurean ideas about biological and cultural evolution. She has been a lecturer in Classical Studies at the Open University, Goldsmiths, and Birkbeck, University of London, and has given regular lectures at the British Museum. She also taught for a number of years on the Conservation course at the Architectural Association School of Architecture. Her main area of research is the history of women in ancient Greece, and their representation in drama and the visual arts. Her other writings include work on Greek and Roman theories of evolution, Emma Hamilton’s ‘Classical Attitudes’ and their place in the 18th century Grand Tour, and the symbolism of shoes in Greek art and thought. She has presented conference papers at universities in the UK, Europe and the US, and has been a keynote speaker on Greek footwear.
Sue is currently working on a book provisionally titled Finding her Feet: Female Footwear and its Stories
Amy is joined by Alicia Galbraith & BreAnna Larson who turn the table and interview our host about her experiences with the plant medicine Mamá Ayahuasca. This episode is Part Two of Two and covers the experience of an ayahuasca ceremony and how plant medicine can offer healing and revelation.
Alicia Galbraith is passionate about mental health. With a background in neuroscience, yoga, and meditation, she is currently pursuing a Masters Degree in Social Work with the intent to become a therapist. She believes each client she meets with has the tools for their own healing within themselves. In sessions, she pulls from her varied background, clearing the path for whole-person healing, with the firm belief that each client holds their own medicine.
BreAnna Cox Larson lives in North Salt Lake with her husband and four kids. She is the Chair of the NSL Planning Commission, the Co-founder and Chair of the Davis County Women’s Caucus, and a member of the Stakeholder’s Committee for the Davis School District. She volunteers as a citizen lobbyist with a focus on empowering citizens to get involved in their communities through boards and commissions to impact municipal-level change. She and her family own a small hobby vineyard and enjoy skiing and riding motorcycles together.
Amy is joined by Tlawil Castillo to begin learning about the plant medicine, Mamá Aya. This episode is Part One or Two and discusses the history and science of ayahuasca as well as first hand experiences of a plant medicine practitioner.
Tlawil Castillo is a devoted student of sacred ancient ways and a gate keeper for those who are committed to healing, evolving, and co-creating. She is a mother for all and a guide for those looking to deepen their connection with themselves and the forces of nature.
Amy is joined by Alicia Galbraith & BreAnna Larson to conclude their discussion of the plant medicine peyote. This episode is Part Two of Two and covers the process of a peyote ceremony and personal accounts of the grandfather medicine's power.
Alicia Galbraith is passionate about mental health. With a background in neuroscience, yoga, and meditation, she is currently pursuing a Masters Degree in Social Work with the intent to become a therapist. She believes each client she meets with has the tools for their own healing within themselves. In sessions, she pulls from her varied background, clearing the path for whole-person healing, with the firm belief that each client holds their own medicine.
BreAnna Cox Larson lives in North Salt Lake with her husband and four kids. She is the Chair of the NSL Planning Commission, the Co-founder and Chair of the Davis County Women’s Caucus, and a member of the Stakeholder’s Committee for the Davis School District. She volunteers as a citizen lobbyist with a focus on empowering citizens to get involved in their communities through boards and commissions to impact municipal-level change. She and her family own a small hobby vineyard and enjoy skiing and riding motorcycles together.
Amy is joined by Alicia Galbraith & BreAnna Larson to begin their discussion of plant medicine. This episode is Part One or Two and covers the history of peyotism among Indigenous communities and what drew our guests to participate in a peyote ceremony.
Alicia Galbraith is passionate about mental health. With a background in neuroscience, yoga, and meditation, she is currently pursuing a Masters Degree in Social Work with the intent to become a therapist. She believes each client she meets with has the tools for their own healing within themselves. In sessions, she pulls from her varied background, clearing the path for whole-person healing, with the firm belief that each client holds their own medicine.
BreAnna Cox Larson lives in North Salt Lake with her husband and four kids. She is the Chair of the NSL Planning Commission, the Co-founder and Chair of the Davis County Women’s Caucus, and a member of the Stakeholder’s Committee for the Davis School District. She volunteers as a citizen lobbyist with a focus on empowering citizens to get involved in their communities through boards and commissions to impact municipal-level change. She and her family own a small hobby vineyard and enjoy skiing and riding motorcycles together.
Amy is joined by Dr. Brianna Theobald to discuss her book Reproduction on the Reservation as well as gender roles in Crow culture and the history of reproductive rights in Indigenous communities.
Dr. Brianna Theobald is an assistant professor of history and affiliate faculty in the Susan B. Anthony Institute for Gender, Sexuality, and Women’s Studies at the University of Rochester. She is an award-winning teacher and researcher in the fields of U.S. women’s and gender history, the history of Native America, and the history of reproduction. Her first book, Reproduction on the Reservation: Pregnancy, Childbirth, and Colonialism in the Long Twentieth Century (University of North Carolina Press, 2019), explores the intersection of colonial and reproductive politics in Native America from the late nineteenth century to the present. This book has received multiple awards, including the Erminie Wheeler-Voegelin Book Award from the American Society for Ethnohistory. Theobald’s research on Native women’s history has appeared in academic publications including the Journal of Women’s History and The Oxford Research Encyclopedia of American History, and she has also published in venues including Time Magazine and the Washington Post. She is currently working on two book-length projects, Making the Impossible Reality: Genealogies of Indigenous Women's Activism and Safe Haven: Feminisms and the Domestic Violence Movement.
Amy is joined by Dr. Cutcha Risling Baldy to discuss her book We Are Dancing For You as well as the violent legacy of settler colonialism in California and how Indigenous women are reclaiming their traditions.
Dr. Cutcha Risling Baldy is an Associate Professor and Department Chair of Native American Studies at Humboldt State University. Her research is focused on Indigenous feminisms, California Indians and decolonization. She received her Ph.D. in Native American Studies with a Designated Emphasis in Feminist Theory and Research from the University of California, Davis and her M.F.A. in Creative Writing & Literary Research from San Diego State University. She also has her B.A. in Psychology from Stanford University. She has published in the Ecological Processes Journal, the Wicazo Sa Review, and the Decolonization: Indigeneity, Education and Society journal. She has also published creative writing in the As/Us journal and News from Native California. She is also the author of a popular blog that explores issues of social justice, history and California Indian politics and culture.
Amy is joined by Dr. Farina King to discuss truths of American genocide and explore the tragic history behind Native American boarding schools.
Farina King, a citizen of the Navajo Nation, is the Horizon Chair of Native American Ecology and Culture and Associate Professor of Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma. She received her Ph.D. at Arizona State University in History. King specializes in twentieth-century Native American Studies, especially Indigenous experiences in boarding schools. She is the author of The Earth Memory Compass: Diné Landscapes and Education in the Twentieth Century, and co-author with Michael P. Taylor and James R. Swensen of Returning Home: Diné Creative Works from the Intermountain Indian School. She is one of the series editors for the Lyda Conley Series on Trailblazing Indigenous Futures of the University Press of Kansas, and she co-hosts the Native Circles podcast with Sarah Newcomb. She is the past President of the Southwest Oral History Association (2021-2022). Previously, between 2016 and 2022, she was Associate Professor of History and affiliated faculty of Cherokee and Indigenous Studies at Northeastern State University, Tahlequah, in the homelands of the Cherokee Nation and United Keetoowah Band of Cherokees. She also directed and founded the NSU Center for Indigenous Community Engagement.
Amy is joined by Dr. Bri Romanello to discuss the nuanced history and modern ramifications of immigration and interracial marriage across LDS and Latine communities.
Brittany “Bri” Romanello earned a Ph.D. in Sociocultural Anthropology from Arizona State University. Her research in the Southwest and borderland areas used mixed ethnographic methods to understand better how the intersections of race, ethnicity, legal status, and religion shape Latinx immigrants' lives, social networks, family structures, parenting, and identity. On a personal note, Bri enjoys existing outdoors, buying too many books, cooking, thrifting, cumbias, film and gardening.
Amy is joined by Dr. Julia Zulver to discuss her book, High-Risk Feminism in Columbia, and learn about feminist organizations striving for justice in Colombia and El Salvador.
Dr. Julia Zulver is a feminist researcher studying women's mobilization in communities affected by conflict and violence in Latin America. She is passionate about gender justice, and uses academic research, advocacy, and commentary to draw attention to and support women's rights.
Amy is joined by Sarah Lopez to discuss Julia Alvarez's In the Time of the Butterflies and discuss the complicated history of patriarchy and revolution in the Dominican Republic.
Sarah Lopez is a recent graduate from Boston University where she earned a Bachelor’s degree in International Relations (with a regional focus on Latin America) and two minors in Italian and Political Science. She is interested in substantive democracy, social movements, anti-racism, identity, migration, and Latin American politics, and aspires to obtain a Ph.D. and teach.
Amy is joined by Dr. Susie Porter to discuss her book From Angel to Office Worker and explore the nuances of class, gender, and labor in Mexico.
Dr. Susie Porter is a Presidential Societal Impact Scholar and Distinguished Professor in the Humanities. She serves as a country conditions expert for asylum cases, was a founder of the Westside Leadership Institute (Spanish language version), and works as an organizer with the Salt Lake City Latinx community. She served as Chair of the Gender Studies Division (2010-2020) and, since 2021, as Director of the Center for Latin American Studies.
Porter is the author of two award-winning books: Workingwomen in Mexico City (Arizona, 2003); and From Angel to Office Worker: Middle-Class Identity and Female Consciousness in Mexico, 1890-1950 (Nebraska, 2018)-both also published by El Colegio de Michoacán press. Porter is co-editor of Orden social e identidad de género, with María Teresa Fernández Aceves and Carmen Ramos Escandón (2006); and, Género en la encrucijada de la historia social y cultural, with Fernández Aceves (2015).
Amy is joined by Natalia Calero to explore the history and present day realities of reproductive rights in Latin America, as well as intersections between feminism, class privilege, and colonialism.
Natalia Calero is the General Director of Coming Up, an organization dedicated to gender equality, labor inclusion and professional development, whose mission is to help organizations have inclusive work spaces in which the talent and skills of all people are valued. Natalia has more than 20 years of work in national and international organizations in the field of human rights, gender equality and inclusion. Natalia served as a program management specialist at UN Women Mexico, where she was in charge of women's leadership and political participation and the elimination of violence against women and girls. Prior to that, she served as an advisor to the Human Rights Directorate of the Mexican Supreme Court, where she supervised training on equality and the elimination of stereotypes.
Amy is joined by Dr. Marie Sarita Gaytán to discuss the life of Amelio Robles, who served during the Mexican Revolution and became one of Mexico's earliest transgender icons.
Marie Sarita Gaytán is an associate professor of sociology and gender studies at the University of Utah. Sarita writes and teaches in the areas of culture, globalization, Latinx studies, Latin American studies, gender and sexuality, and race and ethnicity. She is the recipient of Paper Awards from the Latin American Studies Association in the Mexico section, the American Sociological Association in the Latinx sociology section, and the National Association of Chicana and Chicano studies. Her book, ¡Tequila!: Distilling the Spirit of Mexico, was published in 2014 by Stanford University Press.
Amy is joined by Levi Murray to discuss the tricky intersections between patriarchy and colonialism in Mexico, plus a deep dive into the female archetypes of La Malinche, La Llorona, and La Virgen de Guadalupe.
Levi Murray is a half-white, half Mexican-American anti-patriarchist. A dentist by trade, he is currently pursuing a Masters of Theology with a focus on Feminist Theology. Levi has the fortunate of being married to his best friend, Barbara, and together raising four beautiful children.
Amy is joined by Dr. Maile Arvin to discuss her book, Possessing Polynesians: The Science of Settler Colonial Whiteness in Hawai'i and Oceania and the intersections between settler colonialism and patriarchy on the Hawai'ian islands.
Dr. Maile Arvin is an associate professor of History and Gender Studies at the University of Utah. She is a Native Hawaiian feminist scholar who works on issues of race, gender, science and colonialism in Hawai‘i and the broader Pacific. At the University of Utah, she is part of the leadership of the Pacific Islands Studies Initiative, which was awarded a Mellon Foundation grant to support ongoing efforts to develop Pacific Islands Studies curriculum, programming and student recruitment and support.
Arvin’s first book, Possessing Polynesians: The Science of Settler Colonial Whiteness in Hawaiʻi and Oceania, was published with Duke University Press in 2019. In that book, she analyzes the nineteenth and early twentieth century history of social scientists declaring Polynesians “almost white.” The book argues that such scientific studies contributed to a settler colonial logic of possession through whiteness. In this logic, Indigenous Polynesians (the people) and Polynesia (the place) became the natural possessions of white settlers, since they reasoned that Europeans and Polynesians shared an ancient ancestry. The book also examines how Polynesians have long challenged this logic in ways that regenerate Indigenous ways of relating to each other. Her work has also been published in the journals Meridians, American Quarterly, Native American and Indigenous Studies, Critical Ethnic Studies, The Scholar & Feminist, and Feminist Formations, as well as on the nonprofit independent news site Truthout.
From 2015-17, Arvin was an assistant professor at the University of California, Riverside, in Ethnic Studies. She earned her PhD in Ethnic Studies from the University of California, San Diego. Her dissertation won the American Studies Association’s Ralph Henry Gabriel prize. She is also a former University of California President’s Postdoctoral Fellow, Charles Eastman Fellow in Native American Studies at Dartmouth College, and Ford Foundation Pre-doctoral Fellow.
Amy and Dr. Gina Colvin discuss Māori history, culture, and why feminism may not be necessary in a Māori context.
Gina Colvin is a New Zealander of Māori, English, Irish, Welsh, German and French descent. Until the July of 2016, she was in the permanent position of Lecturer at the University of Canterbury. Dr. Colvin served UC for 12 years across Political Science and Communication, School of Māori and Cultural Development, and more recently the School of Educational Studies and Leadership.
Gina’s primary academic interest is in the history and future of ideas. Whether faith, belief, ideologies, symbols, representations or discourses, all communicate powerful ideas that at the same time express hope for, or hope in some kind of social action. Whether expressed in educational, religious, or political contexts my research interests are in understanding how and why particular ideas flower, change, get disrupted, are silenced, or become dogmas, and how these same ideas translate into social, political, and cultural realities.
Amy and Meleseini Lotoaniu conclude their discussion of gender constructs in Tonga, from European contact to the present day.
Meleseini Lotoaniu is a third-year student at University of California, Davis with an interest in literature and writing.
Amy is joined by Meleseini Lotoaniu for Part 1 of their discussion about the history of gender constructs in Tonga.
Meleseini Lotoaniu is a third-year student at University of California, Davis with an interest in literature and writing.
Amy is joined by translator Jaime Chang to discuss the novel Kim Jiyoung, Born 1982 by Cho Nam-Joo and explore the stories of contemporary Korean women.
Jamie Chang is an award-winning translator and teaches at the Ewha Womans University in Seoul, South Korea.
Amy is joined by Dr. Setsu Shigematsu to discuss xer book Scream from the Shadows and the history of women's liberation in Japan.
Setsu Shigematsu is a mother of two children and an Associate Professor of Media and Cultural Studies at UC Riverside. Xer intellectual and scholarly concerns include the relationship of US and Japanese imperialism, gendered state violence, transnational liberation movements, comparative feminist theory and cultural studies. Xe is the author of Scream from the Shadows: the Women’s Liberation Movement in Japan, and the director of Re-Visions of Abolition (2011/2021), a documentary film about the prison industrial complex and the prison abolition movement. Xe is also co-editor of Militarized Currents: Toward a Decolonized Future in Asia and the Pacific.
Amy is joined by author Wang Ping to discuss her book Aching for Beauty: Footbinding in China and explore the nuances of beauty practices in China and beyond.
Wang Ping is a poet, writer, photographer, performance and multimedia artist. Her publications have been translated into multiple languages and include poetry, short stories, novels, cultural studies, and children's stories. Her multimedia exhibitions address global themes of industrialization, the environment, interdependency, and the people. She is the recipient of numerous awards, a professor of English, and founder of the Kinship of Rivers project.
Amy is joined by Annabelle Qian to conclude their discussion of patriarchy's history in Imperial China from the Qin Dynasty (221 BCE) to the Qing Dynasty (1912 CE).
Annabelle Qian is an 18 year old scholar who just graduated from Waterford High School, and will be studying international affairs and economics at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill this fall. Annabelle is biracial and trilingual. She lived in Guangzhou, China for 10 years where she cultivated her study of the intersection between global politics and personal identity. Annabelle is an award winning historical writer; she has presented papers in Washington D.C. for international competitions, as well as at the Utah State Capitol.
Amy is joined by Annabelle Qian to discuss the books Women in Ancient China and Women in Early Imperial China by author Bret Hinsch, and to launch their exploration of patriarchy's history in China.
Annabelle Qian was born to a Chinese father and an American mother. One of three children, she has lived extensively in both China and the United States. Currently, Annabelle is attending the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill where she studies International Relations and Public Policy with an emphasis on East Asia.
Amy is joined by film-maker Jenn Lee Smith to discuss Patriarchy in East Asia: A Comparative Sociology of Gender by Sechiyama Kaku and (En)gendering Taiwan: The Rise of Taiwanese Feminism, and to explore patriarchy specifically within Confucianism and Taiwan.
Jenn Lee Smith was born on the friendly, vibrant island of Taiwan. She is a filmmaker who focuses on women-led stories of underrepresented people. In a previous life, she worked on a PhD in feminist geography. She began her producing career focused on stories at the intersection of religion and sexual/gender orientation, and has since collaborated on BIPOC and environmental films. She welcomes your recommendations for live comedy and films of all genres @bewilderfilm
Amy is joined by Marissa Lila and Rachel Lam to discuss Buddhism After Patriarchyby Rita Gross and begin our exploration of patriarchy in East Asia.
Rachel Lam is a professor of psychology and integrative medicine caregiver in Salt Lake City, Utah. She identifies as a biracial-female educator, healer, and advocate for social justice and mental health.
Marissa Lila (she/they) is a Thai-American documentarian who grew up in Hong Kong and Thailand and is now based in Salt Lake City. As a multicultural filmmaker, she directs and produces projects with characters who cross boundaries set by dominant cultures or identities. Marissa’s projects have been selected to play at international film festivals (DOC NYC, Camden, IFF, Big Sky Documentary FF, and MountainFilm). Two projects she produced, Transmormon and Oxygen to Fly, went viral with over 160 million total views. These projects were featured in The Huffington Post, New York Times, The Atlantic, People Magazine, and Dazed. Marissa is co-founder of OHO Media, a creative content agency for which Marissa creates documentaries and documentary-based branded content. Marissa directed, produced, and wrote for the docu-reality television series The Generations Project, for which one of the episodes she produced won a Regional Emmy. Marissa also spent six years creating educational content to increase equitable outcomes for students inclusive of race, ethnicity, language, cultural, sexual orientation, or ability.
Amy is joined by Rev. Cynthia Brix, Dr. William Keepin, and Harin Jeong to discuss their groundbreaking work with Gender Equity and Reconciliation International.
Rev. Cynthia Brix, is co-founder of Gender Equity and Reconciliation International, which has organized 280 intensive trainings in twelve countries for healing and reconciliation between women and men, and people of all genders. She is an ordained interfaith minister and Co-Director of Satyana Institute. She was formerly a campus minister at the University of Colorado for United Ministries of Higher Education. Cynthia co-chaired the Race Relations Committee for the City of Muncie, Indiana, and served in numerous leadership positions for Planned Parenthood in Dallas and in Indiana. A long-time student of Eknath Easwaran’s Passage Meditation, Cynthia leads retreats on interfaith spirituality. She co-organized five international conferences on interspirituality, one of which brought women spiritual masters together from Buddhist, Christian, and Hindu traditions, and she produced a DVD video from this conference entitled Cultivating Women’s Spiritual Mastery. Cynthia holds an M.Div. from Iliff School of Theology (2006), a double M.A. in wellness management and applied gerontology, and an honorary doctorate from the California Institute of Integral Studies. She is contributing author of Divine Duality: The Power of Reconciliation between Women and Men (Hohm Press, 2007), and co-author of Women Healing Women: A Model of Hope for Oppressed Women Everywhere (Hohm Press, 2009).
William Keepin, PhD, is co-founder of the Gender Equity and Reconciliation International project. A mathematical physicist widely published in the fields of sustainable energy, global warming, archetypal cosmology, comparative mysticism, and the intersection of science and spirituality, Will has presented testimony to European and Australian parliaments, and the US House of Representatives. He became a whistleblower in nuclear science policy, recounted in The Cultural Creatives (Paul Ray and Sherry Anderson, Harmony Books, 2000). Will co-founded the Satyana Institute, and together with Rev. Cynthia Brix organized five international conferences to facilitate dialogue, interspiritual practice, and collaboration across the major religions and science. Will trained extensively in spiritual traditions East and West, and holds a Ph.D. in applied mathematics, M.S. in mathematical physics, M.A. in East-West psychology, and honorary doctorate from the California Institute of Integral Studies. He is a Fellow of the Findhorn Foundation, and has facilitated Grof holotropic breathwork since 1989. Will is author of Divine Duality: The Power of Reconciliation Between Women and Men (Hohm Press, 2007), and Belonging to God: Spirituality, Science, and a Universal Path of Divine Love (SkyLight Paths, Turner Publishing, 2016). He is co-author of Women Healing Women (Hohm Press, 2009); and Song of the Earth: The Emerging Synthesis of Spiritual and Scientific Worldviews (Permanent Publications, London, UK, 2012).
Harin Jeong, MA is a GERI facilitator and lead coordinator for GERI in South Korea based in Seoul. And I'll just make a note that the full title of this organization is Gender Equity and Reconciliation Institute, but we'll abbreviate that sometimes by just saying GERI. So listeners, when you hear the word GERI, you'll know tha
Amy is joined by advocate Mariya Taher to learn more about Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting and discuss firsthand accounts from those affected.
Mariya Taher has worked in gender-based violence for over a decade in the areas of teaching, research, policy, program development, and direct service.
In 2015, she cofounded Sahiyo, an award-winning, transnational organization with the mission to empower Asian and other communities to end FGC. The Manhattan Young Democrats honored her as a 2017 Engendering Progress honoree and in 2018, Mariya received the Human Rights Storytellers Award from the Muslim American Leadership Alliance. In 2020, she was recognized as one of the six inaugural grant recipients for the Crave Foundation for Women. Since 2015, she has collaborated with the Massachusetts Women’s Bar Association to pass legislation to protect girls from FGC. After starting a Change.org petition and gathering over 400,000 signatures, Massachusetts became the 39th state in the U.S. to do so.
Mariya is also an extensive writer in fiction and nonfiction and has contributed articles and stories to NPR’s Code Switch, HuffPost, The Fair Observer, Brown Girl Magazine, Solstice Literary Magazine, The Express Tribune, The San Francisco Examiner, and more.
She graduated with her MFA in Creative Writing from Lesley University, where she received the Graduate School of Arts & Social Sciences Dean’s Merit Scholarship and the Lesley University Graduate Student Leadership Award. She also holds a Master in Social Work from San Francisco State University and a B.A. from UC Santa Barbara in Religious Studies.
Learn more at sahiyo.org
Amy is joined by Dr. Srimati Basu to discuss her book The Trouble With Marriage: Feminists Confront Law and Violence in India and explore the complicated gender politics behind divorce.
Srimati Basu is a Professor of Gender and Women’s Studies and Anthropology, and a member of the Committee on Social Theory. She serves as the President of the Association for Feminist Anthropology, 2021-2023. Srimati has an Interdisciplinary Ph.D. from Ohio State University in Cultural Studies/ Anthropology/ Women's Studies, and her teaching, research and community work interests include Global Feminisms, Law, Gender-Based Violence, Social Movements, Feminist Methodologies, and Masculinities. At present, she is writing a monograph on anti-feminist men's rights groups, following a 2013-14 Fulbright Fellowship to conduct fieldwork with MRAs across Indian cities. She has recently begun a research project on Indian women private detectives with fellowships from National Endowment for Humanities/ American Institute of Indian Studies and from Sisters in Crime.
Amy is joined by Thenmozhi Soundararajan to discuss her book The Trauma of Caste: A Dalit Feminist Meditation on Survivorship, Healing, and Abolition and help open our eyes to the oppressive and far-reaching ramifications of the caste system.
Thenmozhi Soundararajan is a Dalit Civil rights artist, organizer, and theorist who has worked with hundreds of organizations to better understand the urgent issues of racial, caste, and gender equity. Working across disciplines she is an innovative strategist and thinker that has built bridges between many communities around the world.
Amy is joined by Acharya Shunya to discuss her book Roar Like a Goddess: Every Woman's Guide to Becoming Unapologetically Powerful, Prosperous, and Peaceful and discuss the importance of powerful female deities in the Hindu tradition.
Acharya Shunya is a truth-teller who facilitates authenticity, self-remembrance, and divine feminine pathways to awakening. The first female head of her spiritual lineage that traces its roots to 2,000-year-ago in India, Acharya Shunya represents the ancient Vedic tradition of India in a way that is completely authentic, yet as relevant as possible to modern sensibilities and needs.
Acharya Shunya reinterprets and re-contextualizes ancient Vedic wisdom and dharma teachings of Advaita Vedanta (nondual teachings), Ayurveda's lifestyle wisdom and Yoga philosophy, to create a learning and awakening path for contemporary seekers, empowering people everywhere to lead spiritually fearless, fulfilled and enlightened lives. Her teachings acts like a bridge between ancient wisdom and issues faced by modern humans, today.
Acharya Shunya is the author of three bestselling books Ayurveda lifestyle Wisdom (2017), Sovereign Self (2020) and her newest book - Roar Like a Goddess: Every Woman's Guide to Becoming Unapologetically Powerful, Prosperous, and Peaceful. In this book, Acharya Shunya honors her progressive Vedic roots while breaking the shackles of tradition to bring modern-day women, an inclusive, feminist spirituality.
Amy is joined by Rabbi Elyse Goldstein to discuss her book New Jewish Feminism: Probing the Past, Forging the Future and learn about the legacy of feminism in the Jewish tradition.
As one of the first woman rabbis in Canada, Elyse Goldstein has broken down barriers by founding inclusive communities for learning and prayer. Goldstein graduated from Brandeis University in 1978 and was ordained by the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in 1983. After ordination, she became assistant rabbi at Holy Blossom Temple in Toronto. Then sole rabbi of Temple Beth David in Canton, Massachusetts in 1986 before returning to Canada in 1991 to become founding director of Kolel, the Adult Center for Liberal Jewish Learning, a major center for a Jewish adult education. Goldstein served as the first female president of both Reform Rabbis of Toronto and the Interdenominational Toronto Board of Rabbis.
She retired from Kolel in 2011 and founded the Inclusive City Shul in Toronto, where she still serves as rabbi. Her first book, ReVisions: Seeing Torah through a Feminist Lens, won the Canadian National Jewish Book Award in 1998. And her 2000 book Women's Torah Commentary, which wove together insights from dozens of women's scholars, has left an indelible mark on Jewish thought. And her book, New Jewish Feminism: Probing the Past, Forging the Future, was a finalist for the National Jewish Book Award in 2008.
Amy is joined by author Angela Saini to discuss her book The Patriarchs: The Origins of Inequality and re-examine patriarchy's foundational roots.
Angela Saini is a British science journalist, broadcaster and the author. Saini has worked as a reporter and presenter for the BBC and has written for a number of publications including The Guardian, New Scientist, and Wired UK. She has also produced and presented several radio and television documentaries, including a BBC Radio 4 documentary on biofuels and a BBC World Service documentary on the impact of climate change on Indian agriculture. Saini's writing and reporting focus on how science interacts with society, especially on how it affects marginalized groups, and she has been acclaimed for her work by a diverse range of organizations and institutions.
Amy is joined by Dr. Islah Jad to discuss her book, Palestinian Women's Activism: Nationalism, Secularism, Islamism, and the many roles of Palestinian women as they resist oppression.
Dr. Islah Jad is a tenured Assistant Professor of Gender and Development at Birzeit University. She is also the co-founder and current Director of the Institute of Women’s Studies at Birzeit and a Core Group Member of the Arab Families Working Group. A prominent figure in the Palestinian women’s movement, Jad also helped to establish the Women’s Affair Centre in Gaza and Nablus, Les Amies du Francis, the Child Corner project in el-Bireh, and the WATC (Women’s Affairs Technical Committee). Jad carried out Gender Consultancy for the United Nations Development Programme and was a co-author of the United Nation’s Arab Human Development Report of 2005. She earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Cairo University, a master's degree in political theory from the University of Nantes, and a Ph.D. in gender and development studies from the University of London. She currently teaches at Birzeit University.
Amy is joined by Dr. Bahar Jalali to discuss the history of Afghanistan and how the country's past, as well as global politics, shape the lives of Afghan women today.
Dr. Bahar Jalali teaches the history of the Modern Middle East. Her area of expertise is Afghanistan. She focuses on modernization and women’s rights in the twentieth century under the Old Regime. She is currently finishing a manuscript on the Decade of Democracy from 1963-1973 in Afghanistan when an urban educated intelligentsia spearheaded democratic reforms and a liberal Constitution. Born in Afghanistan, she fled the country as a child after the Soviet invasion.
In 2009, she returned to Afghanistan to work at the newly opened American University in Kabul where she taught History of Afghanistan and founded the first Gender Studies program in the history of the country. She recently started an online protest campaign calling for protection of women’s rights and preservation of cultural heritage in Afghanistan. This campaign has received extensive coverage in the international press. It has also triggered wide- ranging discussions on protection of human rights and cultural heritage in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime.
Amy is joined by Dr. Afiya S. Zia to discuss her book Faith and Feminism in Pakistan: Religious Agency or Secular Autonomy and explore the achievements and challenges of Pakistani feminists.
Dr. Afiya Zia is a feminist scholar who has taught Gender Studies at the University of Toronto, Canada, and Habib University in Pakistan. She is the author of three books, has authored over a dozen peer-reviewed essays in scholarly publications, and she's contributed chapters for over ten edited volumes, including an award-winning publication on human rights. She's currently a professor at Wesleyan University.
Amy is joined by Léa Namouni to discuss the anthology Women Rising: In and Beyond The Arab Spring and the work of women activists and organizers in the Arab World.
Léa Namouni was born in Paris, France and lived there until the age of five when her family relocated to the state of New Jersey. She holds a BA in International Relations from Boston University and will attending Columbia Law School as of September 2023 studying international law.
Amy is joined by Dr. Zahra Ayubi to discuss her book Gendered Morality: Classical Islamic Ethics of the Self, Family and Society and begin this season's exploration of gender relations in the Muslim world.
Dr. Zahra Ayubi is a scholar of gender in pre-modern and contemporary Islamic ethics. She specializes in feminist philosophy approaches to the Muslim intellectual tradition. Her work includes a serious look at masculinity and gendered childhood, in addition to studying more traditional gender topics such as constructs of femininity, women's experiences, marriage, divorce, sexuality, and feminism. She has published on gendered concepts of ethics, justice, and religious authority, and on Muslim feminist thought and American Muslim women's experiences.
Her book, Gendered Morality: Classical Islamic Ethics of the Self, Family and Society, was published by Columbia University Press in 2019. In it, Ayubi calls for a philosophical turn in the study of gender and Islam based on resources for gender equality that are unlocked by feminist engagement with the Islamic ethical tradition.
She's currently taking that philosophical turn in her second book project, Women as Humans: Life, Death, and Gendered Being in Islamic Medical Ethics, which was supported by a three-year grant from the Greenwall Foundation's Faculty Scholars Program. The project is a textual and ethnographic study of gender and gendered experiences in Muslim biomedical ethics. Zahra Ayubi is an associate professor of religion at Dartmouth College, where she started in 2015 upon completion of her PhD in religious studies from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She is the current president of the Society for the Study of Muslim Ethics
Amy is joined by Stacey Harkey to discuss How We Fight for Our Lives by Saeed Jones and focus on the experience of being Black and queer in America.
Born in Dallas, Texas, Stacey Harkey considers himself to be a Southerner to the core. After graduating with a degree in public relations from Brigham Young University, he was a writer and actor for the sketch comedy TV show, Studio C. He is currently a personal trainer, a corporate DEI consultant, and owns a media company called JK Studios. Stacey is a firm believer in the power of an embarrassing moment, a burnt meal, and an extremely difficult challenge.
Amy is joined by Dr. Christena Cleveland to discuss her book God is a Black Woman and unpack our assumptions about divinity, gender, and race.
Christena Cleveland Ph.D. is a social psychologist, public theologian, author, and activist. She is the founder and director of the Center for Justice + Renewal as well as its sister organization, Sacred Folk, which creates resources to stimulate people’s spiritual imaginations and support their journeys toward liberation.
A weaver of Black liberation and the sacred feminine, Dr. Cleveland integrates psychology, theology, storytelling, and art to stimulate our spiritual imaginations. She recently completed her third full-length book, God is a Black Woman (HarperOne), which details her 400-mile walking pilgrimage across central France in search of ancient Black Madonna statues, and examines the relationship among race, gender, and cultural perceptions of the Divine.
Dr. Cleveland holds a Ph.D. in social psychology from the University of California Santa Barbara as well as an honorary doctorate from the Virginia Theological Seminary. An award-winning researcher and author, Christena is a Ford Foundation Fellow who has held faculty positions at several institutions of higher education — most recently at Duke University’s Divinity School, where she led a research team investigating self-compassion as a buffer to racial stress. Though Dr. Cleveland loves scholarly inquiry, she is also a student of embodied wisdom. She recently completed the Art & So
Amy is joined by Kylee Shepherd to discuss We Should All Be Feminists by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichi as well as Womanism and Feminism on the African continent.
Kylee Shepherd is a bi-racial student from Bakersfield, California. She is currently a psychology major at Brigham Young University and plans to be an elementary school teacher. She is a founding member of The Black Menaces, an activist group interviewing students and faculty on college campuses with questions that start conversations about racial issues, biases, stereotypes, and more. In her spare time, Kylee likes to the movies, play with her dog, and take naps.
Amy is joined by Channel Achenbach to discuss Daughters of Anowa by Mercy Amba Oduyoye and explore history and gender relations in Ghana.
Amy is joined by writer and intellectual OluTimehin Kukoyito discuss The Invention of Women by Oyèrónkẹ́ Oyěwùmí and explore the concept of gender in Nigeria.
Amy explores the history of Liberia and Women's Mass Action for Peace through the written words of one of her heroes, Leymah Gbowee.
Amy is joined by academic and advocate Dr. Veronica Fynn Bruey to discuss her book, Patriarchy and Gender in Africa, and discuss the impacts of patriarchy on the African continent.
Dr. Veronica Fynn Bruey is a multi-award winner and a passionate academic and advocate. Holding six academic degrees from four continents, she has researched, taught, consulted, and presented at conferences in over thirty countries. She's authored five books, several book chapters, and journal articles. She's the founder and editor in chief of the Journal of Internal Displacement, the co-lead of Law & Society's collaborative research network, she is the lead of Law & Society Association's international research collaborative, Disrupting Patriarchy and Masculinity in Africa, the founder of The Voice of West African Refugees in Ghana at the Buduburam refugee settlement in Ghana. She is also the Australian National University International Alumna of the Year in 2021, and the president of the International Association for the Study of Forced Migration, and a co-chair of Africa Interest Group American Society Of International Law. Currently she is an Action Canada Fellow, from 2022 to 2023, and the director of The Flower School of Global Health Sciences and an assistant professor of legal studies at Athabasca University. Veronica is a born and bred indigenous Liberian War survivor.
Amy is joined by author, educator, and activist Anne Firth Murray to discuss her book, From Outrage to Courage, and start exploring patriarchy on a global scale.
Amy is joined by Dina Asna and Saghi Saghazadeh to discuss the ongoing revolution in Iran.
Welcome to Season Three of Breaking Down Patriarchy!
Each week in Season 3 Amy will read a book on a different topic in global gender studies, and will discuss it with a guest who has also read - or, in many cases written - the book being discussed. We will start with the African continent, touching down in several different countries to discuss essential topics in the history of patriarchy and gender studies. The following month, in honor of Black History Month, we will focus on essential texts by Black authors. Next, we will move north to the Middle East, then onward to Asia, around to the Pacific Islands, on to the Americas, and finally, we’ll finish out the year with a handful of European countries.
Each guest this year will have ancestry from the country they discuss in their episode, and in many cases they will be longtime residents of that country, which means they will bring firsthand local experience to the discussion.
Amy is joined by the show's editor, Sam Rose Preminger, to discuss all the incredible content in Season 2!
In the concluding episode of Season Two, Amy is joined by Dr. Kristin Neff to discuss the generative power of anger, the danger of rote gender roles, and the radical power of self-compassion.
Kristin Neff (she/her) received her doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley, and is currently an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin.
During Kristin’s last year of graduate school she became interested in Buddhism and has been practicing meditation in the Insight Meditation tradition ever since. While doing her post-doctoral work she decided to conduct research on self-compassion – a central construct in Buddhist psychology and one that had not yet been examined empirically. Kristin is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, creating a scale to measure the construct almost 20 years ago. She has been recognized as one of the world’s most influential research psychologists. In addition to writing numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic, she is author of the book Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, and her latest Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power and Thrive.
In conjunction with her colleague Dr. Chris Germer, she has developed an empirically supported training program called Mindful Self-Compassion, which is taught by thousands of teachers worldwide. They co-authored The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook as well as Teaching the Mindful Self-Compassion Program: A Guide for Professionals. She is also co-founder of the nonprofit Center for Mindful Self-Compassion.
While many of our listeners are no doubt getting ready for Christmas festivities this week, for others the winter celebrations have already begun. Candles are being lit, loved ones are gathered close, and latkes are already sizzling in oil as our Jewish friends, family, and neighbors are celebrating Chanukah, the festival of lights.
From Gerda Lerner and Gloria Steinem to Betty Freidan and Naomi Wolf, I have always admired to contributions of Jewish women to feminist thought and yet we haven’t yet had the opportunity to highlight voices from the Jewish community this season. With that in mind, I was so grateful to be put in contact with a fabulous writer, thinker, and rabbi — Hara Person—who generously volunteered to join us this season and share some stories of powerful women in the Jewish holiday tradition.
Rabbi Hara Person (she/her) is the Chief Executive of Central Conference of American Rabbis. Previously, she was the CCAR’s Chief Strategy Officer. In that capacity, she oversaw the Communications Department and served as Publisher of CCAR Press, and worked with leadership on overall organizational strategy.
Rabbi Person was ordained in 1998 from HUC-JIR, after graduating summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from Amherst College (1986) and receiving an MA in Fine Arts from New York University/International Center of Photography (1992).
She served as Educator at the Brooklyn Heights Synagogue from 1990-1996, and was the Adjunct Rabbi there from 1998-2019. Since 1998, Rabbi Person has been the High Holy Day Rabbi of Congregation B’nai Olam, Fire Island Pines, NY.
Before coming to the CCAR, Rabbi Person was the Editor-in-Chief of URJ Books and Music, where she was responsible for the revision of The Torah: A Modern Commentary (2005) and the publication of many significant projects, including the Aleph Isn’t Tough adult Hebrew series and Mitkadem: Hebrew for Youth as well as several award-winning children’s books. While at URJ, she was also the Managing Editor of The Torah: A Women’s Commentary, named the National Jewish Book Award Book of the Year in 2008.
Rabbi Person is also the co-author of Stories of Heaven and Earth: Bible Heroes in Contemporary Children’s Literature and as well as co-editor of That You May Live Long: Caring for Your Aging Parents, Caring for Yourself, and Editor of The Mitzvah of Healing. Her essays and poems have been published in various anthologies and journals, including Bridges: A Jewish Feminist Journal, upstreet, Encyclopedia of Jewish American Popular Culture, Women and Judaism, The Continuum Encyclopedia of Children’s Literature, and The Women’s Haftarah Commentary.
Rabbi Person lives in Brooklyn, NY, and is the mother of two adults.
In the course of this season, we’ve gone in depth and up close with dozens of people’s experiences navigating present-day patriarchy. We’ve heard stories of personal struggle, of generational trauma, of feminist revelations. We’ve listened to fantastic essays on what a more egalitarian future might look like, and we’ve been pointed towards critical changes that our world and our culture are sorely overdue for. On today’s episode, we’re going to be talking about what it takes to actually make those changes happen, about the process of change itself. We’ll be talking about how challenging the idea of change can be, about some of the forces which fight against it – tooth and nail – and about the harm that those conflicts can cause. But ultimately, we’re going to be talking about how essential these acts of transformation are – for ourselves, for our culture, for our world – and how everyday people just like you and I can make these changes manifest.
To help us in this exploration we're joined by Shauna Rensch and Lauren Prakke. We're so grateful to feature their voices.
Shauna Rensch (she/her) is a wife and mother of four kids ages 16 to 6. She grew up in the north suburbs of Chicago but moved to Arizona with her family at the end of high school. She went to ASU looking at various degrees, but decided on education before taking time off to get married and have her first child. She went back to school in order to complete a bachelor's degree at NAU and started teaching. She has taught from kindergarten through sixth grade but loves teaching math above anything else. She completed a master's in elementary education from NAU in 2015. She is currently taking time off from teaching but looks forward to more work within the education field in the future. Shauna loves reading, embroidery, long walks with beautiful views and road trips with her family.
Lauren Prakke (she/her) is a cultural innovator, strategic advisor and futurist. Prakke founded Restless Buddha Productions which harnessed a team of international experts across a broad spectrum of the arts including film, theatre, art to simultaneously raise capital and social awareness. Restless Buddha has been featured in numerous newspapers and magazines from Vanity Fair to The Times. Prakke is an int’l lecturer, writer, and curator of contemporary art, a theatre producer and a social activist with an expertise on woman's issues. Prakke is a TED speaker, founded & chaired The Tate Young Patrons at The Tate, served as co-chair of Women for Women International Leadership, Chairman of The Whitechapel Patrons and on the Board of Women of the World at The Southbank Centre. Prakke was an Interest Rate Swaps broker in both NYC & in London for nearly a decade. She was graduated in 19th Century English Literature and has a post grad degree Contemporary Art. She is a relentless reader and an autodidact polymath.
As this second season of the podcast approaches a close, we want to spend a little more time discussing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints—not to dwell in the pain which the Church’s patriarchy has caused, but rather to imagine some possible steps forward. To start envisioning a new Church for the future, a Church with regard, respect, and opportunity for all of its members, and to explore some of the potential steps that will lead us there.
To help us illuminate these paths forward, it’s my delight that in this episode we’re joined by Kajsa Berlin-Kaufusi who shares a stunning vision for the Church’s feminist future.
Kajsa Berlin-Kaufusi (she/her) is, what you might call in French, a "flaneuse"---that is, a woman who enjoys the process of wandering and exploring, whether it be a local bookstore or a new international destination. She completed her BA at Brigham Young University, followed by an MA in Biblical Studies from Regent University. Her research focuses on feminist/progressive theologies, early Christianity, Medieval Judeo-Islamic philosophy, world religions, and women's narratives of the religious experience. Today, Kajsa is devoting her time to writing, with a book forthcoming, and spending time with her family. She is also the proud owner of a Great Dane named Freja, who is one of the loves of her life.
Earlier this year, our podcast began a project of collecting, publishing, and elevating people’s stories about patriarchy, and when we got word out that we were soliciting contributions, we received an overflow of messages from women raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We are so grateful for all the stories that found their way to us.
In today’s episode, we hear from Ashley Mae Hoiland and Courtney McPhie, as well as an Anonymous Contributor who help us explore the impacts of LDS patriarchy in their own lives.
Ashley Mae Hoiland (she/her) is the author of One Hundred Birds Taught me To Fly, A New Constellation and several children's books. She lives in Provo, Utah with her three kids, geologist husband, dog and bearded dragon. She has an MFA in creative writing and teaches writing classes online at MineToTell.co
Courtney McPhie (she/her) experienced a typical awakening to social justice in high school, but took until college to call herself a feminist. A voracious reader and podcast-listener, Courtney lives in Northern Virginia, in the DC Metro area. She completed her graduate studies at George Mason University and holds a masters degree in education, which she uses as a high school English teacher in Fairfax County. She works largely with English Language Learners, mostly asylum-seekers who have come from Central America in the last three years. Courtney lives with her husband and three cute kids in a Colonial house on a hill.
On today’s episode we’re going to be discussing loss — loss of family, loss of loved ones, loss of faith — and specifically we’ll be discussing loss in the context of excommunication from the Church of Latter-Day Saints.
For listeners who may not be familiar, excommunication from the LDS Church is the single most severe form of discipline which Church leaders can enact. It’s a severance, total and often sudden, from a person’s community and from their faith tradition, and its fallout can be devastating. While this form of punishment may have its proper uses, its clear that far too often it’s instead wielded as a form of censorship against proponents of progress and accountability. So, on today’s episode we’re going to be digging in deeper to understand excommunication and its impact, as well as other relevant forms of loss, as I’m joined by Natasha Helfer who sat down with me for a deeply honest interview about death, divorce, and her own experience of being removed from the Mormon Church.
Natasha Helfer (she/her) is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and a Certified Sex Therapist, speaker, writer, podcaster, and supervisor with 20 years of experience treating individuals, couples, and family systems.
As we’ve discussed in Season 1 of the podcast, there is a strong and encouraging history of men aligning with feminist causes and contributing to feminist movements. This is a history that dates back at least 175 years to Frederick Douglas speaking in favor of suffrage at Seneca Falls and to John Stuart Mill advocating for women’s rights before British Parliament. From the very beginnings of First Wave Feminism, there have been men of integrity standing alongside our foremothers, and that tradition of male feminism continues to this day. Which is good, because we need them.
We need people of all genders working together if we’re going to create the future feminists envision, but we especially need men to consider how they can play an active part in promoting change and in encouraging others to do the same. Fundamentally, this work we are asking of men involves examining their motivations and assumptions, it means admitting difficult truths, questioning deeply held beliefs, and having the courage to share this work with others – and I couldn’t be prouder to say that today we’ll be joined by two phenomenal men, Jon Ogden and Erik Allebest, who are stepping forward to lead the way.
Jon Ogden (he/him) is founder of UpliftKids.org, a lesson library and curriculum that gives families a foundation after a faith shift.
Erik Allebest (he/him)is the husband of Amy McPhie Allebest. He is a huge supporter of Breaking Down Patriarchy and of Amy. They have 3 daughters and a son. Erik is the CEO of Chess.com. He also loves playing any kind of game and doing almost any kind of physical activity.
On today's episode I sit down with chess expert and professional gamer, Alexandra Botez, to discuss women in the world of competitive chess, life as a streamer, imposter syndrome, harassment, world travel, and the future of women and girls in gaming.
Alexandra Botez(she/her) is an American-Canadian chess player and commentator, streaming superstar. She's the creator of BotezLive, one of the most popular chess channels on Twitch and YouTube. As a player, she became a five-time Canadian National Girls Champion and won the U.S. Girls Nationals at age 15. She achieved her highest FIDE Elo rating of 2092 in March 2016, and she currently holds the International Chess Federation title of Woman FIDE Master. Botez is currently one of the top-10 female players in Canada.
Today we're going to confront some of the really hard things about being a woman in the LDS faith tradition and we're also going to highlight some of the beauty and the goodness and the moral rightness that is found there in the Church. To demonstrate one aspect of the many complicated factors of what it felt like to be a Mormon, here's a scene for my house when I was little:
In the 1980s, my family drove a huge blue Suburban. My younger siblings and I would listen to cassette tapes in the Suburban on road trips and we would listen to the same things over and over and over again. One of the classics was a musical that was called My Turn on Earth. It came out in 1986 and it was about a girl who live with God and with the whole human family before being born in a human body on earth. What I got from that is that my soul could have come down to earth anywhere. I could have been born into a body of a rich aristocratic family and friends. I could have been born in a slum in Brazil. I could have been born into a Muslim family in Egypt or a Buddhist family in Thailand, and so my whole life, anyone I see anywhere, I have an awareness that that person could just as easily have been me.
Every single person that I meet was at that big family meeting before humans came to earth, so we are all siblings even if we don't remember each other. This way of viewing other people is at the core of who I am and today I am so honored and so excited that on today's episode I'm joined by the author of My Turn on Earth, Carol Lynn Pearson.
Carol Lynn Pearson (she/her) has been a professional writer, speaker and performer for many years. Several of her poems have been widely reprinted in such places as the Ann Landers column and Chicken Soup for the Soul as well as college literary textbooks. Her autobiography, Goodbye, I Love You, tells the story of her marriage to a homosexual man, their divorce, ongoing friendship, and her caring for him as he died of AIDS. This story made her a guest on such programs as "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and "Good Morning, America," and she has been featured in People magazine. Pearson has written numerous plays, books, and educational motion pictures. Pearson holds a master's degree in theatre, is the mother of four grown children, and lives in Walnut Creek, Calif.
In the 21st century, witchcraft is trending. TikTokers, for example, sharing witch-based content, have amassed over 20 billion views under the hashtag “witchtok” and, as the trend grows, major retailers (including Sephora, Urban Outfitters, and many more) have eagerly started selling mystical crystals, spell books, and other witchy paraphernalia hoping to cash in on this growing faith movement. And yet all of this still leaves us with the question: who exactly are these self-professed witches? Some of you may even be wondering, is witchcraft actually real? To help cut through misinformation and shine a light directly on what witchcraft looks like today, we decided to go straight to the source and fortunately found Kari - a present-day, practicing witch - who was willing to sit down with our podcast’s editor, Sam Rose, for a conversation about ritual, history, stereotypes, and the self-identified witches who still walk among us. Kari (she/her) is a student of Jungian psychology, an active member of the Hyperian movement, and has been a practicing witch for over 40 years.
On today’s episode we visit the number one country in the world when it comes to gender equity—Iceland—to take a closer, more critical look at the history and present day lives of women in a nation viewed as the gold standard for women’s rights. To help facilitate this exploration of Icelandic culture, I’m thrilled to say that today we’re joined by globetrotter Rachel Greenley, as well as a number of Icelandic locals who generously sat down with Rachel to discuss to discuss patriarchy overseas, what American and Icelandic feminism can learn from one another, the red stocking movement, and the incredible history of how Iceland has become a world leader in gender equality. Rachel Greenley (she/her) has a master’s degree in International Development and is passionate about women's empowerment. She travels, lives, and works around the world with her husband and children.
As regular listeners know, we do our best on this podcast to not look away from the pain that patriarchy creates. In the past this has meant discussing the hurtful ways patriarchy erases history, the ways it diminishes women, limits possibilities for men and boys, and—on several occasions—this has meant listening to difficult stories of domestic abuse. On today’s episode we’ll be joined by an Anonymous Contributor who trusts us with another of these difficult stories. Note: this segment contains descriptions of domestic and sexual violence, among other potentially distressing content. I encourage everyone listening to please take care of yourselves as you know best.
In this episode I'm joined by phenomenal guests—Liz & Cami—two Americans who have lived in Saudi Arabia for the past several years and are ready to speak about their experiences navigating Saudi patriarchy as foreign women. Their conversation is fascinating and funny, discussing dress codes and driver’s licenses and the shadows of colonialism in this unique peek into one of the world’s—allegedly—most patriarchal societies.
On today’s episode, we’re going to be exploring this concept of the feminist awakening with three extraordinary guests--Monica Rodgers, Shelbey Neil, and an Anonymous Contributor--who help us unpack the trance of patriarchy, the challenges of a new perspective, and the need to confront our former beliefs. Monica Rodgers (she/her) is a tireless advocate for the full actualization of women, inspiring women everywhere that saying “YES to the MESS” is the missing link to self-love and personal awakening. Through her podcast and group coaching programs, Monica guides women through their inner evolution, from trance to transcendence, revealing the toxic myths of social conditioning and self-doubt. Monica is a Mother, a Beloved Life Partner, a Certified Co-active Coach, Sacred Feminine Archetype Practitioner, Host of The Revelation Project Podcast, and she’s the Author of the upcoming: Book of Revelation. Learn more by visit jointherevelation.com. Shelbey Neil (she/her) hails from the mountains of Utah but has lived in swamps of New Orleans for the past 5.5 years. She likes dipping her toes into many interesting subjects and moving quickly onto the next—but feminism has sucked her in for a total immersion. Her life motto is horrendously cheesy, but you really do miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
Many of us want to make a difference in our lives, find our purpose and create our legacy. Shaped by our past, we look toward the future, and toward creating a better world for those around us. As the daughter of an immigrant and refugee, Katica Roy is driven by a passion to eradicate economic inequality and to champion the rights of refugees, women, and children. She has written numerous articles about intersectional gender equity for different national media platforms and uses storytelling and data-stitching to create a common calling toward achieving gender equity. Her articles garnered over 2.9 billion impressions. I was thrilled to have Katica join me on today's episode for a fascinating discussion on gender and the economy. Katica Roy (she/her) is one of LinkedIn’s 2022 Top Voices for Gender Equity, the 2020 Colorado Entrepreneur of the Year, 2019 Stevie Entrepreneur of the Year, Top 25 Most Powerful Woman in Business, a 2018 Denver Business Journal Outstanding Women in Business finalist, a 2018 Colorado Governor’s Fellow, and was named a Luminary by the Colorado Technology Association in 2017, recognizing her as a visionary technology leader in Colorado. Katica is the CEO of Pipeline, an award-winning company that uses advanced technology to make intersectional gender parity a reality in our lifetime. In addition to its core platform, Pipeline launched the first gender equity app on Salesforce's AppExchange. Pipeline was also named as one of TIME Magazine’s Best Inventions of 2019, Fast Company’s 2020 World’s Most Innovative Companies, Fast Company’s 2021 Next Big Things in Tech, Fast Company’s 2022 World Changing Ideas. Pipeline is backed by both Accenture and Workday.
In this episode I'm joined by the astounding social worker and psychotherapist, Dr. Julie Hanks, for an astonishing conversation about aspirational shame, imposter syndrome, why far too many women feel prohibiting from chasing their dreams, and how we can strive to recognize and accept ourselves as the people we’re meant to be. Julie de Azevedo Hanks, PhD, LCSW is a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist with nearly 30 years’ experience providing a safe place for healing conversations that educate and empower women to prioritize their dreams, revolutionize their families, and personalize their faith. She is the founder and director of Wasatch Family Therapy, an outpatient therapy clinic, and the author of The Burnout Cure and The Assertiveness Guide for Women. Dr. Hanks is a local and national media contributor, a coach, a private practice consultant, and an award-winning performing songwriter. Dr. Hanks is the host of Ask Dr. Julie Hanks podcast and creator of online courses helping women navigate motherhood, relationships, and faith. A native Californian, Hanks currently lives with her family in Sandy, UT. For additional resources visit DrJulieHanks.com or connect with @drjuliehanks on social media.
When we began accepting submissions for this season, we received an outpouring of stories from women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Stories about how the Church has affected their relationships, how it’s affected their careers, their faith, their sense of self-worth. And, while we are very much dedicated to continuing to seek out and promote diverse voices, we also believe that this surge of stories from Mormon women needs to be heard. We received so many of these submissions that to listen to them all at once would be overwhelming, so we’ve decided to split them up to make sure we can pay adequate attention to each individual experience. In this episode we hear several short, personal stories from women raised in Mormon homes, and we’ll return and hear more of these stories later in the season. We’re so grateful for each and every one of these contributors for finding the courage to speak and the wisdom to recognize that we all deserve better than the patriarchy we were raised under. To begin this series we'll be hearing from three guests: Tiffany Sowby, Chelsea Homer, and an Anonymous Contributor. Tiffany Sowby (she/her) is the co-host of https://thesisterhoodpodcast.com/#:~:text=Firm%20believers%20that%20women%20rise,We'll%20talk%20about%20it. (The Sisterhood Podcast). A few of her favorite things are: Scrabble games, meaningful conversations, and shopping for shoes. She has an unhealthy dependency on Nutella. Chelsea Homer (she/her) is the founder of https://www.facebook.com/groups/1290631704424963/ (Faith Journey Meetups) and co-founder of a social club for women and genderqueer people looking for connection outside of religion. She loves to write, hike, and go on bike rides with her family.
When we began Season Two of this project, we had the honor of hearing from an anonymous servicewoman in the US Marine Corps who alerted us to alarming disparity among genders within our nation’s military. In the Marines this included misfit equipment, dismissive stigmas against mothers, and an enshrinement of masculinity that bordered on fanaticism. We were so grateful to this first contributor for opening our eyes to some the patriarchy entangled in our armed forces, and now we want to delve even deeper into that tangle. On this episode we hear from author and former intelligence officer Kaitlyn Zivanovich who helps us continue unpacking the patriarchal culture of the US Marine Corps. Kaitlyn’s words offer us an in-depth exploration of the ‘manliest’ branch of the military, how their marketing of hyper-masculinity came to be, and how the corps can continue moving forward in its treatment of women, people of color, and LGBTQIA+ servicemembers to create a more inclusive military for all.
We have a long way to go in our work of deconstructing oppressive systems, and one of the most challenging aspects of doing this work is being able to look at the pain these systems have already caused and are actively causing. It’s being able to listen to one another’s most difficult stories and do so with courage and compassion, without giving up our hope for the future. We can let these stories be lit as beacons to guide our way. We can let them be lit as a fire that drives us forward. On today's episode we hold spare for hard stories. As a caution for listeners, these stories will include explicit discussions of physical and sexual abuse, child marriage, domestic partner violence, and self-harm — and we recognize that this subject matter won’t make for easy listening. But we hope you’ll stay with us because these stories not only spread knowledge and challenge our empathy, they also help us understand how women and nonbinary people can persevere through hardships and still share a light with the world. We're so grateful to be joined by Red O'Hare and Susan Warren who each share stories of survival.
On today's episode I'm joined by my friend, entrepreneur Reese Harper, for a vulnerable conversation about the idea of being a provider, self-actualization, and how men and women together can collaborate to dismantle patriarchy in our workplaces. Reese Harper (he/him) is a financial advisor, a musician, and an entrepreneur. He loves outdoor recreation, writing, and spending quality time with his family.
Music is one of the keys that can unlock our memories, sometimes almost transporting us back through time. Whoever you are, chances are you have at least a few of these musical shortcuts to the past… Maybe you remember driving down the highway with your friends, windows down, singing together at the tops of your lungs. Or maybe you remember seeing a favorite band in concert and the electric energy when they played that one perfect song. Music can tie us to moments of community, of family, of grieving and celebration and callings of faith. Music even ties many of us to our most romantic moments through a special song that we share with a partner or spouse. Whatever genres you listen to, whatever instruments you play, music grounds all of us in our most intimate and important moments. On today's episode we're joined by Jessie Iacono who takes us on a journey through music and memories, through childhood struggles, to marriage, to motherhood and medical crises, all while confronting patriarchy and trauma alongside the guiding lyrics of Billy Joel. Jessie Bryan-Iacono (she/her) is a writer, a business owner and real estate investor. She enjoys reading, watching her three kids play sports, being active and travelling with her family.
*Note: this episode includes discussion of topics such as mental illness and self-harm
On today’s episode we’re going to be exploring the systems of patriarchy at work in the sciences and the arts, hearing from two special guests – computer engineer JoCee Holladay Porter & artist Shannon Christie - as they help us reckon with both sides of this double-edged sword. Shannon Christie (she/her) is a social worker, artist and writer, and the founder of Ragtag Magazine, a web publication focused on creativity and community in the Pacific Northwest. When she has any amount of free time, she loves trying new Thai restaurants, doting on her houseplants, and collecting shiny rocks. JoCee Porter (she/her) is a computer engineer and a wannabe science communicator. She runs a book club highlighting female authors in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM).
A church (which is just a building used for Christian worship) can look like all sorts of things. Some churches boast stunning stonework and intricate stained-glass windows, while others are only modest wooden structures. You can find churches built up in trees, in caves, or on top of volcanoes. Some swell with the sounds of solemn hymns while others are radiant with music and praise. What these churches all have in common, however, is that they’re centers of faith, of doctrine, and of community engagement, and they often hold power in the community’s that they serve. Can that power be disseminated and wielded responsibly? Of course it can. However, far too often we find troubling stories of toxic patriarchy and abusive behaviors surfacing within our church communities. On today’s episode we’ll be joined by two guests — Kathy Barbini and an Anonymous Contributor — who share their stories and help us explore the roles of patriarchy in our churches and beyond. Kathy Barbini (she/her) is an independent documentary filmmaker and former producer for national television programs. She loves hiking, the ocean, movies and reading. Learn more about Kathy's latest film at baptizingfeminism.com
Most of us would love to have a perfect memory, but we often fall far short of this aspiration. Who hasn’t forgotten someone’s name right after being introduced, or failed to remember where you left your car in the parking lot? Our memories are rarely as reliable as we’d like them to be. And more so, our memories – even some of our most formative ones – can alter over time. Like a game of telephone, each time we return to a memory it can change ever so slightly until the story in our mind — while it may reflect a personal truth — is suddenly far from the facts of the lived reality. Memory is ephemeral, ever-shifting, and foundational to the ways we understand our worlds and ourselves. In this episode, we explore the phenomena of memory with two outstanding guests -- Emilly Prado and an Anonymous Contributor -- discussing and exploring the influence of patriarchy along the way. Emilly Giselle Prado (she/her) is a writer, DJ, and educator living in Portland, Oregon with roots in the San Francisco Bay Area and Michoacán, Mexico. As an award-winning multimedia journalist, Emilly spent half a decade independently reporting on a wide range of topics, most often centered on amplifying the voices and experiences of people from historically marginalized communities. Her writing and photographs have been published widely, appearing in more than 30 publications including NPR, Marie Claire, Bitch Media, Eater, Oxygen, The Oregonian, Remezcla, and Travel Oregon. Emilly is the author of Funeral for Flaca, a memoir-in-essays shortlisted for the Pacific Northwest Book Award and called, “Utterly vulnerable, bold, and unique,” by Ms. Magazine. She is also the author of Examining Assimilation, a youth non-fiction title at the intersections of identity and U.S. history. Emilly is a Tin House and Las Dos Brujas Workshop alumna, Blackburn Fellow and MFA Candidate at Randolph College, and a co-founder of Portland in Color. She moonlights as DJ Mami Miami with Noche Libre, the Latinx DJ collective she co-founded in 2017.
How do you feel about beauty pageants? In 1968, the feminist group New York Radical Women organized a picket of the Miss America Pageant and paraded sheep around the area to protest models being judged like animals at a county fair. These activists refused to talk to male reporters, which forced newspapers to call in women reporters from their usual assignments covering second-tier stories. And then they set up a freedom trash can and they piled in their bras and false eyelashes and put in copies of magazines such as Playboy and the Ladies Home Journal. These demonstrations at pageants spread to many other countries, including to the Miss World pageant held in England in 1970, where protesters threw flower bombs and disrupted the event with football rattles. And then in Scotland in 1975, a large group of women called the students signed up for a beauty pageant. And then on the day of the contest, they all stormed in together wearing overalls and no makeup, essentially hijacking the event. Whatever listeners think about beauty pageants, it's about to get more complicated. On today's episode, we hear a fascinating essay from Holland Allebes Anderson, granddaughter of the very first Miss World Kiki Hawkinson. Holland Allebes Anderson grew up in Southern California. She is currently a student at Brigham Young University Provo, studying to become a Landscape Architect with an emphasis in urbane farms and edible parks. Holland is an artist of many mediums such as oil paint, ink, digital art, installation art, chalk art, performance art, and poetry. Her art and thinking are shaped by her faith (Church of Jesus Christ), parents, gender, plants, and her humor.
On today’s episode, we interrogate the tradition of patronyms and, in the process, exploring the history of coverture laws, marital customs, and more as our guest—Amelia Hapgood—delves deep into the question of “what’s in a name?” Amelia Hapgood is a BYU student, a newlywed, a devout feminist, and a wanna be runner. She is from Arkansas, and loves being in a family of all girls!
Welcome to BDP! I’m AMA, and today we’re airing a special episode in response to the Supreme Court ruling on June 24, 2022, which eliminated the constitutional right to abortion. The right had been granted in 1973, by way of the Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade, when the justices ruled that the decision of whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term was covered under the “right to privacy” clause of the 14th amendment. Nearly fifty years later, conservative judges appointed by Donald Trump led the court to revoke women’s right to make this choice for themselves. In response, the three liberal justices on the court wrote that the court had done grave damage to women’s equality and to its own legitimacy. They wrote, “With sorrow — for this court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection — we dissent.” To help make sense of this issue, we are re-airing an episode from Season 1 that looks in depth at the original Supreme Court decision, Roe v. Wade. And to make it this episode easier to share with others, we condensed two long episodes down to just one 45 minute piece. So please, whether or not you heard it in 2020, give it a listen now, and then share it with anyone you know who may be struggling to figure out how they feel about this topic. I know it took me a lot of time researching for me to come to my own conclusions about abortion rights, so I have a lot of compassion for people who find this issue challenging. My hope is that more people will do honest-hearted, open-minded research, starting with reading Roe v. Wade itself. But in the meantime, here’s a review of this essential text. I want to thank my sister Lindsay again for her wisdom and for the beautiful and tender way that she approached this topic. When we recorded this episode, we could not have imagined that Roe v. Wade would actually be overturned, but since we live in a new world now, I want to close with some ways that you can take action to restore this fundamental right.Talk to Friends and Family
Share information with the people in your life, including well-sourced articles, personal stories, and this episode of the podcast. We recommend you approach discussion openly and authentically. Helping to educate and sway minds in your community can lead to larger changes in social trends such as funding and voting behaviors. Volunteer on a Local Level
This week’s episode by Theresa Beauchamp and Del Ruhl was particularly inspiring to me because these two people had such different temperaments and different gifts to bring to the table. Think about what you can offer, and do something. You could volunteer to https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-north-central-states/get-involved/volunteer-clinic-escorts (escort folks to your local abortion clinic,) you could become https://www.all-options.org/get-involved/talkline-advocate-trainings/ (become a talk-line advocate) for people weighing their reproductive options, or you could findhttps://trustwomen.org/take-action/volunteer#volunteer_form ( an abortion clinic office where you can volunteer) by looking up Trust women.org. Whatever your skills are, chances are they can be helpful during this crisis. ProtestLook up “Reproductive Rights protest near me” and you’ll find lots of options. -Donate to Abortion Access FundsThere has been an outpouring of donations since the overturning of Roe v Wade, but if you find yourself unable to engage directly, donations can still make a difference. People will need transportation, time off work, and cash flow to travel if and when they need an abortion. Your money can ensure they get there safely and without emptying their wallets in the process. We advise identifying an abortion fund in your area or a nearby area experiencing restricted access. The https://abortionfunds.org/ (National Network of Abortion Funds) can be a helpful resource in identifying these...
Where are we today? Where do we want to be in the future? How do we get there? On today's episode we hear stories from Theresa Beauchamp and Delin Ruhl, two people who've taken action in moments of injustice. Our guests share their remarkable tales of standing up against oppression, whether that confrontation happens behind the lines of a phone bank or face to face in the streets. Theresa Beauchamp (she/her) is a retired family practice Physician Assistant and full-time political activist focused on reproductive and racial justice and the fight against voter suppression. Boogie boarding, e-biking with her husband, live theatre, hiking in the Sierras and playing with her grandchildren rejuvenate her along her journey as a lifelong activist. Delin Ruhl (they/them) is a musician and storyteller based out of Portland, OR. Locally, Dell plays alto saxophone for the Carroll Raum Swing Orchestra, and flute for the group Jump Up Pup. They have also played whistle and bodhran with the group Possibly Irish at Enchanted Forest, and enjoy performing original sets at venues like The Ranger Station and Floyd’s Coffee. Theater credits include Is He Dead? and The Glass Menagerie (Hawai‘i Pacific University), for which they received a Hawai‘i State Theater Association Po‘okela Award for Leading Actor. Regional theater credits include A Christmas Carol (Goodman Theatre), Circle Mirror Transformation; Mauritius (Hawai‘i Repertory Theater), and Someone Else’s Slippas (The Arts at Mark’s Garage). Offstage, they can often be found debating with their parrot, snuggling their 20-pound Flemish Giant rabbit, or writing limericks.
Dr. Nanette Gartrell and Dr. Dee Mosbacher have been pioneers in the struggle for LGBTQIA+ civil rights for over forty years, contributing essential research, political action, and groundbreaking documentaries on gay and lesbian experiences. On today's episode, I'm honored to sit down with these personal heroes for a conversation about their lives, their activism, and their love. Nanette Gartrell, M.D., is a Visiting Distinguished Scholar at the Williams Institute and holds a Guest Appointment at the University of Amsterdam. Previously on the faculties at Harvard and UCSF medical schools, she is the principal investigator of the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study (NLLFS), which since the 1980s has been following a cohort of planned lesbian families with children conceived through donor insemination. She has published extensively on this topic, including in the New England Journal of Medicine. Her investigations provide information to specialists in healthcare, family services, education, and public policy on matters pertaining to sexual minority parent families. Dr. Gartrell graduated from Stanford University (B.A.), University of California (M.D.), and completed a psychiatry residency and fellowship at Harvard Medical School. Dee Mosbacher, M.D., Ph.D., is a psychiatrist and documentary filmmaker. She was a producer/director of the Academy Award-nominated “Straight from the Heart” and eight other award-winning documentaries. As a public sector psychiatrist, Dr. Mosbacher specialized in the treatment of the severely mentally ill, including many who were homeless. Dr. Mosbacher served as San Mateo County’s Medical Director for Mental Health, on the board of California Pacific Medical Center, and on the faculty at UCSF. She has received many awards, including a NOW Women of Power Award and a John E. Fryer Award from the American Psychiatric Association.
As new generations increasingly have the knowledge and social acceptance to explore their identities, the number of openly transgender people in our world—especially transgender youth—is rapidly rising. Yet despite these recent spikes— the transgender community is still comparatively small: making up roughly 0.6% of the global population. As a result, many cisgender people (meaning those of us whose gender aligns with the one we were assigned at birth) have little to no lived experience interacting with transgender people. What we’re exposed to instead is whatever our media, political, and social leaders choose to tell us about them, resulting in a perilous gap between actual transgender people and a series of cultural stereotypes. This gulf in our understanding not only endangers the trans population, it harms all of us, discouraging marginalized demographics from working together, making it even more difficult for us to dismantle oppressive structures, and denying cisgender people the chance to love their trans neighbors. Fortunately, some transgender people are stepping forward to help bridge this divide, sharing their personal stories, dispelling dangerous myths, and helping us envision a more egalitarian future for all. On today’s episode I’m happy to say we’ll be joined by two such voices: Sam Rose Preminger and Domi Shoemaker Sam Rose Preminger (they/them) is a trans-nonbinary, Jewish writer and publisher. They hold an MFA from Pacific University, serve as the Editor-in-Chief of NAILED Magazine, and are a contributing editor at Lightship Press and Write Bloody Publishing. Their poetry has appeared in numerous publications online and in print. Their debut collection of poems —'Cosmological Horizons' — is forthcoming from Kelsay Books (Summer 2022). They live in Portland, OR, where they've acquired too many house plants. www.sampreminger.com Domi J Shoemaker (they/them) is an Idaho-born gender flexer who founded the quarterly reading series, Burnt Tongue, after cutting teeth in Tom Spanbauer’s Dangerous Writers workshop. While finishing an MFA in Writing in 2015, author Lidia Yuknavitch asked Domi to help her create the Corporeal Writing Seasonal Workshop Series. With a resounding yes, Domi is now the Corporeal Writing Seasonal Workshop Co-Facilitator. Domi has published at [PANK], Nailed Magazine, Unshod Quills, Gobshite Quarterly, and has a story in the anthology, The Night and The Rain and The River, from Forest Avenue Press. They were recently featured in the literary radio theatre podcast, Storytellers Telling Stories. www.domishoemaker.com
It’s not exactly a secret that the Church of Latter-Day Saints and gay rights haven’t gone hand-in-hand historically. In fact, for many decades now the Church has vocally campaigned against marriage equality, making it one of the leaderships pre-eminent political concerns and codifying heteronormativity in Church doctrine. While some discriminatory policies have changed over time (for example, the Church no longer teaches that same-sex attraction can be ‘cured’ and no longer requires children of same-sex couples to denounce their parents, as it did until 2019) it would still be inaccurate to imagine that the Church is embracing the queer community to its fullest. In fact, if you go to the official website for the LDS Church right now you can read a statement where they claim that same-sex attraction itself is not wrong, but it is a ‘challenge’ and that acting on those feelings is a sin. Gay members of the Church who choose to publicly kiss and embrace the person that they love may face punishments including probation, disfellowship, or (for those who refuse to repent) excommunication—a total severance from the bonds of their community and faith. Official Church statements refer to same-sex relationships as ‘transgressions’ ‘temptations’ ‘wickedness’ and ‘sin’. The Church emphasizes the importance of marriage and family as absolutely essential for human happiness and salvation after this life, and yet it unequivocally prohibits marriage and family for gay people, condemning them to a life of celibacy and solitude. On today's episode we hear from two guests — Colette Dalton & Autumn McAlpin — who share their experiences with queer identity and the LDS Church. On today's episode we hear from two guests — Colette Dalton & Autumn McAlpin — who share their experiences with queer identity and the LDS Church. Colette Dalton (she/her) is a therapist in Utah and specializes in working with people around faith transitions and sexuality. She co-hosts a podcast called Called to Queer, which holds space for queer Mormon women, genderqueer, and intersex folks. In her free time, she enjoys practicing Pilates, reading, and listening to wayyyy too many podcasts. Autumn McAlpin (she/her) is a writer, filmmaker and dedicated voice of advocacy and equality for our LGTBQIA+ population—in particular in the LDS space. Autumn pens the weekly LGBTQIA+ family profile stories at liftandlove.org, and is also an active supporter and fundraiser for Encircle, which provides safe spaces, friendship circles, classes, and subsidized therapy to LGBTQIA+ youth.
Today I'm thrilled to be joined by Chloe Agyin and Lakshan Lingam. Chloe and Lakshan are members of a nonprofit organization called https://encircletogether.org/ (Encircle). Their mission is to bring together family and community to enable queer youth to thrive. Encircle provides services like support groups, educational and creative programs, and accessible mental health services in a safe and beautiful environment. In cities throughout Utah and other states where queer youth are most at risk. We're so happy to feature this casual candid discussion between Chloe and Lakshan when they were together at the Encircle house in Salt Lake City, discussing identity, gender, orientation, and the power of representation. Chloe Agyin (they/them) is a queer multiracial social worker in Salt Lake City, Utah. At the moment they work as the Home Director of an LGBTQ+ Family and Youth Resource Center. Chloe has had the privilege of working with LGBTQ+ individuals in a variety of capacities, and they hope to continue this life-saving work. Chloe’s dream is to open up a queer bookstore in the South that is focused on amplifying voices of QBIPOC authors and provides a safe space for everyone that enters. When Chloe is not working, they enjoy being outside it in the sun exploring the beautiful landscape that is Utah. Lakshan Lingam (he/they) is an undergraduate student pursing a degree in Gender Studies and Arts Technology at the University of Utah. As Executive Assistant, they help oversee the day-to-day administration and operation of Encircle. In their spare time, they enjoy searching for new music and spending time with their brother. Visit the Episode Page https://breakingdownpatriarchy.com/episode-21-breaking-down-patriarchy-in-pride-month-with-chloe-agyin-lakshan-lingam/ (here).
Today I'm thrilled to be joined by Sebastian Stuart-Johnson and Kylee Shepherd, two members of The Black Menaces. The Black Menaces started in February, 2022. The group made a reaction video to a BYU professor’s insensitive comments about black people in the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and the video instantly went viral on TikTok. The Black Menaces are a group of five friends; Sebastian, Kylee, Rachel, Nate, and Kennethia. Rachel and Nate are recent BYU alumni, Kylee and Kennethia are entering their senior years, and Sebastian is finishing his junior year. The goal of the Black Menaces is to shine light on the problems and issues that happen at predominantly white institutions and enact change. They hope for a better future for any and all minorities that are mistreated and underrepresented.
As women and our allies continue to share knowledge, resources, and take action to dismantle oppressive structures, the progress we make is being met by oppositional movements. Here in America, the MRA Movement (or Men’s Rights Activism) continues to expand its reach and intensify its rhetoric, with prominent MRA leader Matt Forney going so far as to say “Women should be terrorized by their men; it’s the only thing that makes them behave better than chimps.” Meanwhile, crimes targeting women and girls have only continued to increase world-wide. The picture this paints seems clear – some men are aggressively pushing back to protect a repressive status quo and when women voice frustrations with the situation or – yet it is not uncommon to hear cultural and political leaders continuing to claim, as Sen. Josh Hawley did only a few months ago, that “men are under attack.” And believe it or not, I’m going to agree with Senator Hawley on that point… Men are under attack, but not from feminists and others fighting for equality; men are under attack from the very same patriarchal institutions which diminish the rest of us. They are taught that there is a small box of acceptability that they must fit into or be shamed (or worse). Most damaging of all, men continue to be taught not to speak up against other men in situations of injustice, not to upset the normativity of a repressive system which ultimately serves none of us. But if all of us work together, we have the collective power to put a stop to these systems and build a world that works for people of all genders. And that’s why today I’m excited to be bringing men’s voices to the table – men who are ready to pull away the wool patriarchy has draped over their eyes and speak out about injustices they’ve observed and even participated in. We’re so grateful to share their courageous voices with you today. Andy Dunn (he/him) co-founded menswear brand Bonobos and served as CEO until its 2017 acquisition by Walmart. As an investor, he has backed more than eighty startups, including Warby Parker, Coinbase, Away, Glossier, Real, Parade, SeatGeek and Alula. His memoir, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58784468-burn-rate (Burn Rate: Launching a Startup and Losing My Mind), explores the intersection of entrepreneurship and mental illness. Ian McAllister (he/him) is a father and small business owner in Portland, Oregon. When he’s not chasing his two year old daughter around you can usually find him at a farmers market, on the ski slopes, paddling the rivers of the Pacific North West, or cheering at a college football game.
In her landmark book, Of Woman Born, Adrienne Rich writes that “At certain points in history, and in certain cultures, the idea of woman-as-mother has worked to endow all women with respect, even with awe, and to give women some say in the life of a people or a clan. But for most of what we know was the “mainstream’ of recorded history, motherhood as institution has ghettoized and degraded female potentialities.” In this quote, Rich highlights the stark difference between the way our cultural thinks it respects women and the way it actually regards them. It can be a wonderful thing to praise mothers — to celebrate the women around us who channel their love, energy, and resources into the art and the work of raising children — but too often we forget that our cultural ideal of a ‘mother’ is not always accessible nor is it the ideal motherhood for all women. So what happens when a mother doesn’t match up to our institutional expectations? And what happens when a woman decides she doesn’t want to be a mother at all? On today’s episode, we're digging into these questions as we’re joined by two spectacular guests each trusting us with her own story of how motherhood as an institution has haunted their lives: an Anonymous Contributor who speaks about the realities of unwed motherhood, and returning friend of the podcast, Lane Anderson, who shares her own experiences of having the mantle of motherhood assumed and foisted upon her. Lane Anderson (she/her) was raised in Salt Lake City, Utah. She has an undergraduate degree from BYU, and a graduate degree from Columbia University. She has spent much of her career as a full-time journalist, publishing hundreds of articles on inequality, human rights, gender, and social and family issues. She has received several Society of Professional Journalists Awards, and a fellowship from the USC Annenberg School of Journalism for her writing on human trafficking. She lives in New York City with her partner and young daughter, and she is full-time faculty at New York University where she is a Clinical Associate Professor teaching writing. She co-writes Matriarchy Report, a newsletter about family issues from a feminist perspective on Substack, and on Instagram @matriarchyreport
Throughout history women have been misrepresented as villains and monsters: witches, demons, succubus, and beyond. And this misrepresentation of our bodies and minds as evil is no accident! Rather, the vilification of women is a practical tool of patriarchal systems which remains painfully relevant today. After all, if we cast women as monsters, that must make the men controlling them heroes—and who would want to listen to the words of a she-demon? Who would want to vote for one? The damage caused by this vilification is long lasting, so in order to help us unpack some of its history and present-day impact two remarkable women joined us for this episode — Dr. D’Vorah Grenn and Lucy Allebest. Lucy Allebest (she/her) studies History at the University of St Andrews. She enjoys dancing, organizing, wearing green, and sleeping at any time of day or night. Her greatest joy is hugging her parents and her greatest fear is the Pixar lamp. She hopes to one day do something interesting enough to write a bio longer than sixty words. D'vorah J. Grenn (she/her) Ph.D. and Kohenet, is Founding Director, The Lilith Institute (1997). She co-directed the former Women's Spirituality MA Program at Institute of Transpersonal Psychology/Sofia University, and founded Mishkan Shekhinah, a movable sanctuary honoring the Sacred Feminine in all traditions. D’vorah leads the Institute’s Lilith’s Fire Circle, does a https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYYnhC2YC6xclEp_wVGm2Xg (“Tending Lilith’s Fire”) broadcast/podcast with Kohenet Annie Matan and also serves as a spiritual mentor and guide.
This week best-selling author Gabrielle Blair sits down with Amy for an unabashed interview about reproductive rights, contraceptives, and why we continue to prioritize men’s pleasure over women’s health and safety. Gabrielle Stanley Blair (she/her) created an award-winning blog called Design Mom (still going strong 15 years later!), wrote a NYT best-selling book, founded a popular conference called Alt Summit, wrote four viral Twitter threads (and counting!), moved to France, and is raising 6 kids while renovating a house from the 1600s.
From the very beginning on this project it has been my belief that the unjust construct of patriarchy causes harm to people of all genders, including men. Today it’s my delight to be joined by a deep and generous thinker, Bob Rees, who’s going to help us interrogate that belief and unpack some specifics of both how patriarchy can painfully impact men as well as some of the ways men, and patriarchs even, can act as our allies in this work of dismantling oppressive structures. Along the way, Bob will be reciting poetry, offers thoughtful insight, and reflecting on his personal history surrounding trauma and abuse. We’re so excited to be sharing Bob’s story with you, but listeners may want to be aware that this segment will include some challenging content such as sexual abuse, self-harm, and violence — please consider if this material might affect you and take care of yourselves accordingly. Bob Rees (he/him), is an activist scholar, poet and humanitarian. He is a Visiting Professor and Director of Mormon Studies at Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. Previously, he taught at UCLA, UC Santa Cruz, and UC Berkeley. He is the co-founder of the Bountiful Children's Foundation, which addresses malnutrition among Latter-day Saint children in the Developing world. To learn more about Bob and his work to wipe out childhood malnutrition, be sure to visit the https://bountifulchildren.org/ (Bountiful Children Foundation).
Many women face realities of patriarchy from alarmingly young ages — the damage that this can cause a child is something we’re still only first coming to understand…and yet, there’s another side to this equation as well: what happens when we hide the truth of our oppression from children? What happens when we raise little girls to believe that the ugliness of patriarchy is behind us, when we tell them feminism was a tool of the past and mis-represent our present-day world as an egalitarian fairy tale? On today’s episode Amy is joined by creatrix and educator Jessica Harder to explore exactly this dilemma as she shares her stories of growing up with equality-colored glasses, making her way into adulthood and a workforce rife with misconduct, and ultimately takes us into the fashion industry, the Me Too movement, and far beyond. As a note to listeners, be aware that this episode contains discussion of sexual harassment and abuse. Please be kind to yourselves and take care accordingly. Jessica Harder (she/her) has spent her life revolved around the human body. She began filtering her creativity into designing clothing for the body at the age of four, which led into a fifteen-year career in the fashion industry. At the age of 23 she moved to the Netherlands, where she ,met her husband and lived for six years. After moving back to the United States she changed careers and began teaching yoga and meditation. As a yoga teacher, Jessica has taught athletes training for the Olympics, rock climbers, senior citizens, babies, children, convicted convicts, people with drug and alcohol addiction, yogis, mothers, and pregnant women. She has devoted her career to teaching individuals to come into a deeper awareness of the body and mind. During the pandemic, she started a women’s group called Moms Together Six Feet Apart, which provides support to mothers giving birth during the pandemic. Jessica is currently working on her first book about prenatal yoga and raising her two children.
This week Amy is joined by Shannon Johnson to help us zoom in even further to more fully unpack the practice of polygamous marriage in the LDS church and its impact on individual women. Not only do we learn some surprising and essential history, but Shannon trusts us with the story of her own journey coming-of-age within the church community and wrestling with polygamy on a personal level. Shannon Olena Hyatt Johnson (she/her) grew up mostly in Utah and went to BYU, where she met her husband, who was also an English major. She has taught conversational English in Japan and Cairo, and now works in admin at Stanford. She is currently writing a master's thesis on race, polygamy, and the Mormon family. Shannon has three daughters and a non-binary child, ranging in age from 11 to 21. Shannon likes hiking, yoga, British tv, and trashy romance novels.
Recommended Reading & Listening Year of Polygamy (podcast) ~ Lindsay Hansen Park Sunstone Mormon History Podcast (podcast) ~ Lindsay Hansen Park and Bryan Buchanan Pioneers (poem read by author) ~ Carol Lynn Pearson Your Sister in the Gospel: The Life of Jane Manning James, a Nineteenth-Century Black Mormon (book) ~ Quincy D. Newell Sally in Three Worlds: An Indian Captive in the House of Brigham Young (book, also Audible) ~ Virginia Kerns More Wives than One (book) ~ Kathryn Danes “Heathen in Our Fair Land: Anti-Polygamy and Protestant Women’s Missions to Utah, 1869–1910” (PhD Thesis) ~ Jana Riess The Mormon Question: Polygamy and Constitutional Conflict in Nineteenth-Century America (book) ~ Sarah Barringer Gordon “The family, morality and social science in Anglo-American cooperative thought, 1813-1890” (PhD Thesis) ~ Tara Westover (also, Educated) The Legacy of Adam-God in the Mormon Theology of Heteropatriarchy (blog post) ~ The Grand Scoobah Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy―Its Origin, Practice, and Demise (book) ~ B. Carmon Hardy Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness (book) ~ W. Paul Reeve Race and the Making of the Mormon People (book) ~ Max Perry Mueller
We are so grateful to be joined by writer and podcaster Lindsay Hansen Park who does the work of unpacking polygamy on a regular basis and shares some of her discoveries with us today. Lindsay Hansen Park is an American Mormon feminist blogger, podcaster, and the Executive Director for the Salt Lake City-based non-profit Sunstone Education Foundation. She's worked as a consultant and guest on several film projects including Hulu forthcoming television series, Under the Banner of Heaven. You can find her work (and listen to her amazing podcast, Year of Polygamy) at YearofPolygamy.com and at Sunstone.org.
On today’s episode we’re going to be tackling a particularly tricky topic: how we and other women can—intentionally or unintentionally—become enforcers and perpetrators of patriarchy. Fortunately, we’ll have not one, but three spectacular guests joining us to help unpack this phenomenon by sharing their own experiences, emotions, and insights. Each of our contributors—Heather Sundahl, Carrie Salisbury, and Heather Renfro—has a unique, invaluable story to tell and I’m so grateful to have them all with us. Heather Sundahl (she/her) is a writer and editor and studying to be a marriage & family therapist. Her favorite pastime is swapping stories with family and friends. Caroline Salisbury (she/her) lives in Los Angeles, California where she works as a musician, educator and business entrepreneur. She holds music degrees in Viola Performance and was homeschooled as a child and teen. Raised with doomsday preppers, Carrie frequently experienced childhood homelessness and poverty while preparing for upcoming global disasters. She is a survivor of a college sexual assault. Today she is President of the Suzuki Music Association of California - Los Angeles Branch, a music education non-profit for teachers and families, and owner of https://geronarose.com/ (Gerona Rose Music Studio). She has written about religion and feminism at https://www.the-exponent.com/author/violadiva/ (the Exponent blog) as ViolaDiva. She currently shares her creative projects, music, and writing at http://www.carolinesalisbury.com/ (www.carolinesalisbury.com) and on IG and FB @carolinesalisbury Caroline is mother to three children with her husband, pianist-composer Benjamin Salisbury. Heather Lewis Renfro (she/her) works as an educator at a high school in the San Francisco bay area and as a University Supervisor for beginning teachers. She is also a mom to two awesome teenagers. Outside of the things that keep her busy, she can be found swimming, reading, and walking her dog. Please note that this episode contains some explicit language, as well as limited discussion of sexual violence
On today’s episode Amy is joined by Dr. Beverly Allen for an interview about her experiences studying the treatment of women and the roles that patriarchy played during the Yugoslav Wars, as well as the ramifications that her discoveries still hold for us today. This episode contains some challenging content— during our interview we discuss forms of violence, including the use of rape and torture. Please take care of yourselves accordingly. Beverly Allen (she/her) has taught at Cornell, UC Santa Cruz, and the University of Zagreb. Her books are in Italian Studies and Cultural Studies, including Rape Warfare: The Hidden Genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia. Recipient of numerous awards and prizes, she held the William P. Tolley Distinguished Teaching Professorship in the Humanities at Syracuse. She received a Masters from Columbia University and a PhD from UC Berkeley.
On today’s episode we hear a stunning story from a woman on a mission for the Church of Latter-Day Saints. This story includes discussions of mental health, faith, false appearances, and how the systems around us shape our relationship with our bodies. Due to the sensitive nature of this material, the author of this essay has asked to remain anonymous. We're grateful to friend-of-the-podcast, Mary Piccard-Reischmann, for performing this story on our contributor's behalf. Mary Piccard-Reischmann (she/her) is a theatre artist, illustrator, and podcast enthusiast from St. Petersburg, Florida. She studied English, Spanish, and Communication Design at Washington University in St. Louis and earned her Masters in Humanities from the University of Chicago. She is currently the Scenic Charge Artist for Portland Center Stage and spends her free time going to movies and spending too many hours playing on her Nintendo Switch.
On today's episode we celebrate International Women’s Day! This holiday traces its history all the way back to 1909 in NYC. While popular Women’s Day traditions include giving women flowers and small gifts, it is so critical that we not let this holiday become detached from its activist roots. Yes, the day is absolutely intended to be a time for us to recognize one another’s achievements as women, but it’s also a call to action, a day when we’re all encouraged to engage in difficult conversations, to challenge institutions, and to embolden our push for gender parity across the world. With this dedication to progress in mind, it was our thrill to be joined by, Vanessa Loder, who shared not only the story of her personal journey to empowerment, but also provided her professional guidance to help each of us unravel our inner patriarchs, set boundaries, and tap into the energy that motivates us. Vanessa Loder is an inspirational keynote speaker and sought-after expert on women’s leadership, mindfulness, stress management and sustainable success. Vanessa’s work has been featured in Forbes, Fast Company, the Huffington Post and Glamour magazine, among others. Her TEDx talk “How To Lean In Without Burning Out” has over 150,000 views, over 14,000 people have taken Vanessa’s paid online courses and her guided meditations have been streamed over 787,000 times globally. Vanessa provides in-person and online educational tools that support high potential women leaders. By distilling powerful techniques for meditation, visualization, and self-compassion into simple tools and daily practices, Loder teaches women how to quiet their minds, set boundaries without feeling guilty, let go of the pressure to be “perfect”, and get more of what they want in life. Vanessa has taught at AirBnB, Bain & Co, Castlight Health, Charles Schwab, Cisco, Flextronics, Goldman Sachs, Google, LinkedIn, Mattel, PwC, Salesforce, Stanford Graduate School of Business, StubHub!, The North Face, Uber, YouTube, and many other organizations. After spending close to a decade working in finance on Wall Street and Silicon Valley, Vanessa felt that she had climbed to the top of the wrong ladder. Her personal transformation and soul awakening, subsequent research and work have led to thousands of brilliant, overwhelmed women finding their way back to soul. Vanessa received her MBA from Stanford University and her BA from Columbia University where she graduated Phi Beta Kappa, Summa Cum Laude. Loder is a certified Executive Coach, trained in Neuro-Linguistic Programming, past life regression and Vipassana meditation with Jack Kornfield. Vanessa currently lives in Lafayette, CA with her husband and two children, who remind her to take “mommy time-outs” when she’s about to lose her marbles. Visit her at https://vanessaloder.com/ (https://vanessaloder.com/). Additional resources referenced in this episode include: https://vanessaloder.com/feminine-masculine/ (Feminine/Masculine Chart) https://vanessaloder.com/values/ (Values Tool) https://vanessaloder.com/say-no-without-feeling-guilty/ (How to Say No Without Feeling Guilty) Cheat Sheet Richard Schwartz's https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/no-bad-parts/id307934313?i=1000526758616 ("No Bad Parts" Interview on Insights On the Edge) Richard Schwartz's book https://amzn.to/3Hl8Br7 (No Bad Parts) Mary Wolynn's https://amzn.to/2Xdu3Mh (It Didn't Start with You: How Inherited Family Trauma Shapes Who We Are and How to End the Cycle) https://vanessaloder.com/30-day-challenge/ (30 Day Meditation Challenge)
Today in 1987, Congress passed a resolution designating March as Women’s History Month — but — not only is March Women’s History Month, here in the US March is also Irish-American Heritage Month! And what better way to ring in this new month than by learning about Ireland’s patroness saint and listening to the experiences of Irish women? First, we're joined by Ariana Baltay who contributed a fascinating segment about sacred female power, invisible labor, and the patroness saint, Brigid of Kildare. Ariana Baltay is a teacher, a mom, and a recent Stanford MLA (Masters of Liberal Arts) grad. She loves painting, traveling and swimming with the PCC Masters team. Welcome Ariana. Later in the episode, we hear from Maureen Hernon, a teacher, restauranteur, and writer who tells us about her life growing up in rural Ireland. We are so grateful that she’s joining us today to share stories from her life and, regrettably, the role that patriarchy has played in it.
On today's episode I'm joined by Emily Bell McCormick for an interview about the impacts of period poverty and the battle for economic justice unfolding in state legislatures right now. For those interested in getting involved with the fight against period poverty, or any of Emily’s other incredible work, please visit http://www.thepolicyproject.org (The Policy Project). Emily Bell McCormick (she/her) is founder of The Policy Project— a U.S. non-profit organization made up of individuals and like-minded organizations that help educate around and move forward healthy, long-term policy at a local and national level. Emily is also the editor of Utah’s NBC affiliate KSL Studio 5 "Smarter" series--informing viewers about issues, government, policies and politics of the time and helping to empower viewers to find their place in it all. Emily is an experienced communication strategy consultant with a history of working in a myriad of industries including government, policy, NGOs, tech and fashion. Emily has a master’s degree in communication from The Ohio State University and a bachelor's degree in broadcast journalism from Brigham Young University.
This coming Friday, February 18th, will be the birthday of seminal American novelist, Toni Morrison. With her legacy in mind, it’s our honor today to be joined by poet Robert Lashley to share a stunning story about the books of Toni Morrison, American literature, and a son’s unyielding love for his mother. Robert Lashley is a 2016 Jack Straw Fellow, Artist Trust Fellow, and nominee for a Stranger Genius Award. Robert Lashley has had work published in The Seattle Review of Books, NAILED, Poetry Northwest, McSweeney’s, and The Cascadia Review. His poetry was also featured in such anthologies as Many Trails to The Summitt, Foot Bridge Above The Falls, Get Lit, Make It True, and It Was Written. His previous books include THE HOMEBOY SONGS (Small Doggies Press, 2014), and UP SOUTH (Small Doggies Press, 2017). His latest book THE GREEN RIVER VALLEY, was released from Blue Cactus Press on June 17th, 2021 Content Warning: this episode contains discussion of sexual abuse and self-harm. Please take care of yourselves accordingly.
On today's episode I'm joined by one-of-a-kind chess champion and streamer, Anna Rudolf to discuss her experiences in the patriarchal world of competitive chess, including a crash course on the history of female chess champions and an honest discussion about why young women walk away from the game and how everyday people can show up and create change. Anna Rudolf (she/her) is an Olympic Chess-Player and three-time Hungarian Champion. She holds both the International Master and Woman Grand Master titles. In 2013 she recorded her first video series in the studio of chess24 and has since established herself as an acclaimed chess commentator, streamer and reporter. Outside of her playing career, Anna is a regular chess commentator at high-profile tournaments, having worked with both https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess.com (Chess.com) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess24.com (chess24). She was the official commentator for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_2018 (2018 World Chess Championship) together with her childhood idol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r (Judit Polgár). She had started producing instructional videos for chess24 in 2013, and has co-hosted a series with fellow IM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopiko_Guramishvili (Sopiko Guramishvili) where they are known respectively as Miss Strategy and Miss Tactics. She launched her own Twitch channel in 2018 and also runs her own YouTube channel. To learn more about Anna, you can visit her website annarudolfchess.com or tune in to one of her livestreams at twitch.tv/anna_chess
On today's episode we're joined by author and podcaster Cherie Burton, who talks to us about sacred rage, the anger of ancestresses, and how we can harness the indignant energy that patriarchy boils up inside us. Cherie Burton is a mom of 6, author, holistic health business owner, Women Seeking Wholeness podcast host, and hobbyist divine feminine scholar. She has worked as a clinical counselor in the fields of mental health and addiction and now specializes in the science and spirituality of emotional healing and sensory integration; a "whole soul" approach. Cherie is a former Mrs. Utah and guides women in her Stand Speak Shine private coaching programs, retreats and online school. She travels internationally, empowering audiences with knowledge and tools to heal their trauma, find their soul callings, and embrace their wholeness. Learn more at http://www.cherieburton.com/ (www.CherieBurton.com)
Amy is joined by Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife and Monette Chilson on the topic of redefining our relationships with sexuality and sacredness. ~ First, Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks to us about selfhood, sexuality, and faith, delving deep into her research about how women are taught (or not taught) about their powerful capacity for pleasure in patriarchal societies. You can learn more about Dr. Finlayson-Fife and her services by visiting www.finlayson-fife.com. ~ Next, Monette Chilson educates us about the divine feminine and the goddess Sophia, exploring how we relate to the ideal of sacredness, and what words that we use when we discuss divinity. You can learn more about Monette Chilson at www.monettechilson.com, or join her for a workshop by visiting www.jointhereclamation.com.
Amy is joined by Dr. Lindsay Kite to discuss the burden of beauty standards, self-objectification, uncomfortable compliments, and how we can strive to escape the cycle of normative discontent. Dr. Lindsay Kite is co-author of the book More Than a Body: Your Body Is an Instrument, Not an Ornament (2020, HarperCollins) and co-director of the nonprofit Beauty Redefined, alongside her identical twin sister Lexie Kite. Both received PhDs from the University of Utah in the study of female body image and have become leading experts in body image resilience and media literacy. Lindsay and Lexie help girls and women recognize and reject the harmful effects of objectification in their lives through their social media activism, online course, and regular speaking engagements for people of all ages. Lindsay lives in New York City. You can learn more about Dr. Kite’s work by visiting www.morethanabody.org
My name is Abby my pronouns are she/her and as you will come to find very soon I am in the military. I currently live in Southern California with my husband and infant son, but I have lived and grown up and traveled all over the country. I moved around a lot as a child so that's become one of my favorite parts about being in the military: getting to live all over the place. I am currently on maternity leave which has been an interesting adjustment, having an infant son, but it has been a wonderful time and it has also given me the time to do things like this. I've thoroughly enjoyed the Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast and it is an honor and a privilege to be able to contribute my small parts to that. I am currently an active-duty Marine and have been for about a decade. The views expressed in this essay are my own and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Marine Corps, the Department of the Navy, the Department of Defense, or any other government or military organization. I love my profession and find tremendous fulfillment in the work I do. When I began, however, I was oblivious to any influence of patriarchy. I was oblivious to patriarchy not only in the military, but in my life in general. Fortunately, through the past several years I have been exposed by serendipity to women, books, and other resources that have opened my eyes to the structural gender bias of our society and, in turn, to the patriarchy within the military itself. Let’s look at a few examples: As Marines, our protective gear is designed for the so-called average body builds. But since women are a numerical minority, statistically on the lower end of the scale, and typically have larger breasts and hips, important equipment like bullet-proof vests, helmets, and gloves do not fit properly. This means the gear interferes with our ability to do our jobs well and fails to provide the protection it is designed for. Women whose hair goes below their shoulders–like myself–are required to wear it in a low bun. Helmets cannot fit over the bun, however, causing the helmet to tip forward. This prevents full coverage protection on the back and sides of the head, and also makes the helmet fall over our eyes. We also have several different packs that we carry, and they are one size fits all. They have to be so that each Marine can carry the same amount of gear and supplies, but the largest pack fits me, a 5’2” 125-pound body much different than it does my 6’2” 215-pound husband. The top of the pack comes up higher than the top of my head. Combine this with a bun roughly the size of a tennis ball on the back of my head, and I suddenly can’t hold my head up straight while wearing my equipment. If you can picture it, my military-mandated hair bun pushes my head forward as it rubs against the pack. This causes a hunched posture when carrying almost my own body weight. I feel like Quasimodo! Not to mention it limits my field of vision when I can see the ground better than the person next to me. It would seem a simple solution to just take the bun down, but no! We’re told it’s more important to follow the rules of appearance and uniformity than for our equipment to protect us and prevent further injury. And, because these issues don’t affect the majority of the force (just the majority of women), there’s “no incentive” to change the rules or change the equipment. Of course, we do always have the option of cutting our hair short… As of this year, women comprise roughly 9% of the Marine Corps population. This statistic is used to decide facility amenities, rather than the practicality of their use. What I mean by that is decisions are made from the mindset of “There aren’t very many of you” instead of “What do you need?” It would be like if you had 100 students in a school. Ninety speak English and ten speak Spanish. The librarian buys 50 English books and 4 Spanish books because "There aren't very many of you." But just because Spanish...
“I was going to die, sooner or later, whether or not I had ..spoken …. My silences had not protected me. Your silences will not protect you.... What are the words you do not yet have? What are the tyrannies you swallow day by day and attempt to make your own, until you will sicken and die of them, still in silence? We have been socialized to respect fear more than our own need for language." I began to ask each time: "What's the worst that could happen to me if I tell this truth?" Unlike women in other countries, our breaking silence is unlikely to have us jailed, "disappeared" or run off the road at night. Our speaking out will irritate some people, get us called bitchy or hypersensitive and disrupt some dinner parties. And then our speaking out will permit other women to speak, until laws are changed and lives are saved and the world is altered forever. Next time, ask: What's the worst that will happen? Then push yourself a little further than you dare. Once you start to speak, people will yell at you. They will interrupt you, put you down and suggest it's personal. And the world won't end. And the speaking will get easier and easier. And you will find you have fallen in love with your own vision, which you may never have realized you had. And you will lose some friends, and realize you don't miss them. And new ones will find you and cherish you. …And at last you'll know with surpassing certainty that only one thing is more frightening than speaking your truth. And that is not speaking.”
― Audre Lorde
Welcome to Season 2 of Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. During Season 1 of this podcast, we laid the groundwork for understanding Patriarchal systems and how they’ve functioned in Western Civilization, mostly focused on Europe and the United States. And we read Gerda Lerner’s observations that for millennia, small groups of men were recording what they called “History,” but this record was really only the stories of men, by men, about men, for men. Small, exclusive groups of men also devised all of humanity’s laws and religions, politics, sciences, arts, and they kept for themselves all roles of leadership over every field of human endeavor, including presiding over the home. In the meantime, Lerner says,
“Women’s creations sank soundlessly into the sea, leaving barely a ripple, and succeeding generations of women were left to cover the same ground others had already covered before them.” (The Creation of Feminist Consciousness)
For all of recorded history Patriarchal systems continued nearly uncontested, passing along their ideology from generation to generation. It has only been within the very recent past that people have begun to speak up and change things.
And so much has changed in recent years. But much is left to be done - in many realms of society patriarchal systems remain the default, and as Audre Lorde points out, it’s hard to speak against the status quo. It is devastating to be yelled at by a family member, to be frozen out of a social group, to be interrupted and put down and dismissed by strangers and by family and friends. But this is the way the world changes. This is the only way the world has ever changed. It takes individual people being brave enough to tell their stories, to speak their truth, to say “this system that we’re all perpetuating and defending - it harmed me. It harms others. We need to do better.” Whether it’s sexism or racism or homophobia or classism or ableism or ageism… the more people speak the truth, the faster things will change for the better. And conversely, if we remain silent, as Audre Lorde says, “The tyrannies [we] swallow day by day …[will cause us to] sicken and die of them, still in silence.” These silences are poison to us, and they also allow injustice to continue, and thus we participate in passing them onto the next generation.
So Season 2 is about speaking. It’s about stories. In contrast to Season 1, which mostly...
**This episode is also viewable as a video on www.breakingdownpatriarchy.com under the "episodes" heading, and on YouTube on the Breaking Down Patriarchy channel. Welcome to BDP! I’m AMA, and today we are doing a very special episode, summarizing all the works we read this year and sharing thoughts and lessons learned as well as answering some FAQ’s. And my guest today is fan-favorite, Erik Allebest! Welcome back to BDP, Erik! Another cool thing is that for the first time, we’re recording video as well as audio. So if you want to see us as well as hear us, you can watch this video on our website or on YouTube. I want to start this episode at the very beginning - the very first words I spoke on the podcast were from Gerda Lerner’s The Creation of Patriarchy, where she says “Men and women live on stage. Now that I know more about gender, I would rephrase that to say “all human beings live on a stage.” She describes how all of us are up there performing, doing our best to read the scripts we’re supposed to be reading, some have big parts, some small… but in this play, the writer of the scripts, the directors, the people who built the set and produced the whole thing are all men. So even if I, as a woman, get assigned a bigger role, that might placate me because I get more power in the play, but as long as the role has been given to me by directors who are all men (and who choose to keep women out), the power balance hasn’t changed at all. The rest of The Creation of Patriarchy, and the entire podcast, has been a study to try to figure out how it got to be this way, and I want to start with something that we haven’t been able to do yet: an actual historical timeline! Timeline:
Highlight Catal Hayuk From a recent BBC article that I read just today: “An examination of male and female skeletons show that both sexes ate the same diet, performed the same work, and spent the same amount of time outdoors. In life, they inhabited the same physical space; in death they were given the same kind of burials. There is no evidence for either a patriarchal or matriarchal system. In Catalhöyük a woman’s biology was not her fate. People have long accepted that political power is man-made rather than god-given. But it’s been different for female inequality. History, religion, science, everything in fact, has seemed to condemn feminism for being against the natural order. Thanks to Catalhöyük, we can say with confidence that there is nothing natural about patriarchy or matriarchy. Society can take many forms and shapes. Sex is genetic, but gender is cultural.” This highlights a debate between sociologists: is patriarchy “natural” and “inevitable” or is it NOT natural, and we could have just as easily have gone in a different direction? The fact that all societies all over the world, for all time have been at least in some degree patriarchal seems to be an argument that there is a natural element to it. But if there were thousands and thousands of years of non-patriarchy, then it shows that it’s not natural, not inevitable. (Quiz: When did early humans leave Africa? 2 million years ago. When did the first humans arrive in Australia? 60,000 years ago Arrive in the Americas? 30,000 years ago So… long time. But does it even matter if it’s “natural”? Lots of terrible things happen all throughout human societies, so they are thus “natural” too. Just because people everywhere have murdered and tortured and enslaved other people, does that mean we say “oh well! I guess we lean into violence because it’s natural.”? My argument would be no. So let’s dive into the books:
The Chalice and the Blade, Riane Eisler, 1987 - Malia Morris
Evidence of multiple matrifocal, matrilocal societies. Symbols of goddesses, priestesses, evidence of egalitarianism and peace. These were Partnership cultures. They all existed prior to written records, so archaeologists and cultural anthropologists are making informed guesses...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. A couple of months ago I did an Instagram Live with Bergen Hyde of Womb Circle, and Bergen mentioned that in deconstructing our internal patriarchy there was some work that was done with the head - rational, intellectual work, which I envisioned being out in the sunlight… and some work that was done with the heart and the gut - emotional, soul work, which I envisioned being done deep underground, in a cave or the bowels of the earth. I realized that most of the work I’ve done over the past year has been “head” work - defining terms, tracing historical patterns, analyzing books, speeches, and laws. I’ve felt a lot along the way too - listeners know I don’t shy away from a laugh or a cry - but as I had told Bergen at lunch before our Live, I have not really wanted to go into the belly of the earth and have my personal reckoning. To give myself credit, I’ve felt personally called to do an intellectual, academic project, and it’s been a critically important part of my personal life and also something I felt that I wanted to offer to the world. But there’s a part of me that knows I need to do a journey down and in - what the Greeks called a katabasis - the trip into the Underworld or a cave… but I’m scared of what I might find on that journey. I don’t know if I’m up for the anger and the grief that I might feel if I did that “soul work.” But.... within a day of each other Bergen and a very dear long-term friend happened to bring up Women Who Run with the Wolves, by Clarissa Pinkola Estés, which is a book about this very soul work, so I took it as a sign. And Bergen said she would do the episode with me… so down into the cave we go! Bergen is here today and I want to welcome you, Bergen, and thank you so much, for being here as my guide and our listeners’ guide on this journey!
Bergen: Thank you so much for having me Amy. I’m thrilled to be with you!
Amy: Also, this is a really really special episode because it’s the very last book of Season 1. It’s chronologically out of order, but as I said, I added it because you and my friend Annie both said it was a must-read, and it turns out that it’s a perfect bookend for the series because we started with ancient, gynocentric cultures in The Chalice and the Blade, and so it’s fitting that we end with gynocentric stories at the end. But before we talk about the book, could you introduce yourself?
Bergen: Sure! My name is Bergen. I have lived in Provo, Utah for the past 13 years with my Husband and our three kids. My favorite things are dancing, salty snacks, spending time in the mountains, preferably in a body of water. I am the oldest of 4 and grew up in Wisconsin.
I am the Co-Founder and Creative Director of WOMB, which I founded with my two sisters Jentri and Sarah. We hold women’s circles, workshops and retreats and one on one mentoring designed to support women in healing internalized patriarchy, integrating the sacred feminine, and reclaiming personal sovereignty.
I have been devoted to the sacred feminine for the last 4 years and am currently training under Sarah Durham Wilson as a Wounded Maiden to Mature Feminine practitioner.
Amy: Thoughts on Breaking Down Patriarchy?
Bergen: Thoughts
Amy: Intro the author: Clarissa Pinkola Estés was born in January, 1945. She is of Native American and Mexican heritage, and grew up in a rural village, population 600, near the Great Lakes. She was raised in the now vanished oral tradition of her war-torn immigrant, refugee families who could not read nor write, or did so haltingly, and for whom English was their third language overlying their ancient natal languages. As an older child she was adopted into an immigrant and refugee family of majority Magyar and minority Danube Swabian (Hungary and Germany) tribal people. They were wise in the ways of nature, planting, animals, and making everything from scratch,
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Every year on my birthday since about fourth grade, when my birthday cake is brought out and I blow out my candles, I have thought, “I wish for my mom to get better.” All these years later that’s still what I wish for, every single year. My mom has dealt with chronic pain for her entire life, and there were some years as I was growing up that she was in bed with the lights out with a violent migraine for half of the week, every week. She has also suffered from back pain, jaw pain, and stomach pain among other things, and her doctors’ inability to help her, despite their best efforts, was a huge source of discussion and anguish in my house, growing up. So when I heard the title Unwell Women: Misdiagnosis and Myth in a Man-Made World, I knew this was a book we had to add to our reading list. And then I immediately knew who I wanted to read it with me, and that’s Cassy Christianson, from my master’s program. So I’m excited to welcome you to the show today Cassy! Thanks for being here! Cassy: It’s a pleasure!
Amy: We met in Anne Firth Murray’s class, etc., invite to share bio.
Cassy: I am a therapist working in pediatrics and maternal health and inclusion specialist but like you, I also went back to school and graduated from Stanford with a focus on the history of medicine. We met there in Anne Firth-Murray’s seminar on Global Women’s Health-- that's a subject I am really passionate about and on which much of my writing focuses on. My research involves the history of medicine, especially women’s health in the Early Modern period in France. I talk and write about this alongside covering current research in both pediatrics and maternal health and am currently working on an exhibition on Women in Science and Medicine during the Renaissance that will be at Stanford in the Fall of 2023. So I’ve happily been on the West coast for a long time now but I grew up in Florida, living for quite a while on the island of Key West. My family, originally midwesterners, came from strong Scandinavian roots so I’m a mix of that and the Latin culture so prevalent in Florida. Now, I’m also French, through marriage and raising three bilingual, bicultural boys.
Amy: Tell me your thoughts about the term “Breaking Down Patriarchy”
Cassy: I’m very excited to be with you today both as a fan of your own work exposing patriarchy and as a feminist who sees the difficulties in the history of women’s health as being largely attributable to patriarchy. Much of my research has been searching for collaboration and exchange between medical women and men. It's been hard to find! So my writing is often unpacking the hows and whys surrounding the early modern masculinization of work surrounding women’s sexual and reproductive health.
Amy: Intro of the author: Elinor Cleghorn has a background in feminist culture and history, and her critical writing has been published in several academic journalsAfter receiving her PhD in humanities and cultural studies in 2012, Elinor worked for three years as a postdoctoral researcher at the Ruskin School of Art at the University of Oxford on an interdisciplinary arts and medical humanities project. She now works as a freelance writer and researcher and lives in Sussex. Her own pain and other symptoms were dismissed for seven years before she was finally diagnosed with lupus.
Cassy: Introduction
Throughout much of history, a woman's worth depended on having children: whether it was through forging alliances by producing heirs, continuing the family line or producing children to assist their parents in the fields or household. Within a society that viewed reproduction as the primary role of a woman, medical men reduced women’s illness entirely to being attached to their reproductive organs. Throughout the book, Cleghorn often brings us back to...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Of all the texts on our reading list, the one that I’m guessing the most people have already read is Glennon Doyle’s book Untamed. Since it came out in March, 2020, countless women have told me that I “have to read it,” and I’m so glad I finally did. And I added it to the reading list because I often get listeners saying “Ok, now that we know how patriarchy developed, now that we understand the depth of the problem, what do we actually do about it in our everyday lives? And that’s what this book does, in a readable, relatable way, probably better than any other book on the reading list. And to discuss the book with me, I’m so happy to have the brilliant Lane Anderson. Hi, Lane! Lane:
Amy: Lane and I met in Jerusalem, when we were both studying abroad during college, and then we had English classes together after Jerusalem. But we had since lost touch and I’m so happy to have reconnected. (Invite to share bio)
Lane: Bio
I was raised in Salt Lake City, Utah, as the oldest of four daughters. I moved to the Bay Area after college at BYU where I got my first job as a magazine editor there, then I moved to New York City for graduate school and I have been here in New York ever since. I have moved between working as a full-time journalist and working in academia for my whole career, and I’m now a Clinical Associate Professor at New York University, where I’m full time faculty teaching writing. I’m also a freelance journalist and my work has appeared on NPR, Psychology Today, Outside Magazine, as well as SL Trib and Deseret News there in Utah. I spent years writing hundreds of articles about poverty and social justice issues, and in the process I noticed that a lot of things that impact women and girls and small children and families gets under-reported, or not reported very well, and I started focusing on writing about those issues in particular. And then, about three years ago, I had my daughter, and those issues struck home even more--how systemic issues like healthcare, housing, lack of family supports that other mid-to-high income countries have like paid leave, subsidized child care, preschool, are making life in the U.S. really hard for women and parents. Around that time I met Allison Lichter, who was formerly at WSJ and WNYC, who is now the Director of the Journalism + Design program at The New School here in New York, at a journalism conference, and we discovered that we were both passionate--and mad--about a lot of these issues. So we started a Substack newsletter earlier this year called “Matriarchy Report” where we write about these issues and unpack how we got to this place in the U.S. where life is harder for women and families than it is in other countries, and solutions to make it better. Matriarchy Report has grown quite a bit since we started it and we just got a grant from the Solutions Journalism Network to grow it some more, so that’s exciting. And that’s what I work on and what I’m passionate about.
Last year during COVID my family moved back to SLC and rented a house there around the corner from my sister and close to my dad, which was the silver lining of being displaced during COVID. So I actually did move back to Utah for a year which I didn’t see coming! But we returned to our apt. In New York in June, and now I live in Manhattan again with my partner and my three-year old daughter, and I guess I’m a bonafide New Yorker now because I’ve been here for over 15 years now and it feels like home.
Amy: Thoughts on Breaking Down Patriarchy?
Lane: Thoughts
I love this project because it’s about reading essential texts--which as a writer and a professor who teaches writing it’s right up my alley. And it’s also up my alley as a feminist. I was raised in the Mormon/LDS church, like you Amy, and I don’t affiliate with the church any more, but I was in it for 30+ years and a lot of my loved ones--friends
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s book is really important to me - during this whole project I’ve been in conversation with my guy friends, asking them what their fears and hesitations are in relation to “breaking down patriarchy.” As I hope listeners have felt throughout this project, I am very, very invested in creating a world that works for all human beings, and that includes my husband, son, brother, brothers-in-law, and nephews, just as much as it does the girls and women in my family. I want the whole human family to be free and to have tools to flourish. So periodically I check in with the men in my life to find out how they’re reacting to this educational project, and in response I got an email from one of my college friends (a man) who wrote the following: “I hope you’ll also consider all the negatives of being male. Higher crime rate Higher imprisonment Higher suicide rate Higher homicide rate Higher drug use rate Lower college attendance Lower high school graduation rate I don’t know if those are related to patriarchy but sometimes the word patriarchy implies that men ‘have it easier’ and in all categories men also seem to be the ‘winners’. I heard some of these while listening to Jordan Peterson whom I sometimes agree with.” :) So to my friend, thank you thank you for asking all of this - it’s a really important conversation to me, and we only got to address some of it in The Gender Knot by Allan Johnson, so I’ve been really excited to read and discuss today’s book, For the Love of Men: From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity, by Liz Plank. And I’m also so excited to talk about this book with my dear friend and mom of three boys, Jenny DeGraaff. Welcome, Jenny! Jenny: Response Amy: Jenny and I met in 2008, when our oldest kids were in first grade together in Spanish Immersion school in CA, and we discovered that her three boys lined up exactly with my three girls, and our kids became fast friends, having tons of play dates and doing summer swim team together, and Jenny, I would reference your family as the model of “how to raise boys right,” because they are all so smart, so respectful and mature, so funny, and they seem so healthy and balanced and such good friends with each other. I had my boy last, and whenever I get scared thinking “how do I do this??” I just think “I’ll just ask Jenny and do whatever she’s doing.” So could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about who you are, where you’re from, etc? Jenny: Bio I’m the youngest of four, and I grew up in West Virginia and Nebraska. My mom was a nurse and my dad was in academic medicine. My dad was Jewish, but not really religious, and my mom was Catholic. I did go to church when I was little, but religion wasn’t a big part of my upbringing. My parents were fairly traditional in their roles, I suppose, with my dad as the main breadwinner and my mom doing most of the household duties. But even though my dad worked all the time, he was super involved, coaching my brothers’ baseball teams and never missing a band concert. He also did pitch in with some of the housework, partly due to insomnia - I would wake up to piles of folded laundry and reorganized cabinets. Education was always really important in our household. Both of my parents were so smart - I always went to my dad for homework help but realized later in life that I should have been going to my mom. She went to the top nursing school out of high school, but went back to get her bachelor’s degree while I was in high school. The dining room table was completely covered with books - she was one of those students who read every suggested resource in the footnotes. I became interested in languages in high school, and went on to be a German major in college. Not exactly opening the door to a lot of career options, but it did lead me...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. One of the most life-changing classes I’ve ever taken was a class at Stanford taught by Anne Firth Murray, called International Women’s Health and Human Rights, which examined the lives of women from birth to childhood to adulthood to old age, especially focusing on women in the developing world. I have wished many times that every human being could take a class like that - it was so important in my education as a citizen of this world. So I was thrilled when my friend Becca Archibald gave me a book for Christmas last year, The Moment of Lift: How Empowering Women Changes the World, and I discovered that this book covered so many of the same topics as that class, with clear, precise language and a multitude of gripping stories from Melinda Gates’ humanitarian work all over the globe. I added it to the reading list, and I was so excited when my friend Sara Abbasi agreed to be my reading partner for this book. Sara and I met in that class on women’s health and human rights, and listeners will see why she is such a treasure of wisdom and experience on these topics. Thank you so much for being with us, Sara! Sara: Thank you, Amy! It’s an absolute pleasure and honor to participate in your podcast!
Amy: Could you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from and what makes you who you are?
Sara: My name is Sara Abbasi.
I was born in Lahore, Pakistan, and grew up around the world.
I spent the first 9 years living in different cities across Pakistan - we moved almost every other year as a result of my father’s job.
When I was 9 years old, my family moved to Brussels, Belgium. We lived there for about 4 years. In Brussels, I attended a French, Catholic all-girls school in Brussels. This was quite an experience -- I did not speak a word of French. I had attended English schools in Pakistan. And being in a French school was quite a challenge at first. But within six months I was fluent in French. I still remember during school recess, some of my classmates teaching me how to say the alphabet and numbers in French. In the context of the book we are about to discuss “The Moment of Lift,”, I think that probably was one of the first instances of “lift” in my life -- girls helping girls!
When I was 13, my family moved yet again. We moved from Brussels to Manila, Philippines.
I attended the International school in Manila. That was a truly international school -- I had friends from all around the globe, and had this wonderful exposure to different cultures and religions.
I came to the US for university. I attended Bucknell University for 2 years. During my first semester at Bucknell, when I was 18, I got engaged in an arranged marriage, and married 2 years later.
I moved to California right after my wedding. I was able to transfer to Santa Clara University where I completed my undergraduate education.
My husband and I started our family soon after. We now have 3 children. They are all grown, and out of the house.
Over the years, I served on the boards of various NGO’s (non-governmental organizations) based in the US and Pakistan. *One of the NGO’s I’ve been involved with for over 20 years, is called Developments in Literacy (DIL) DIL also means “heart” in Urdu. DIL is a US based non-profit working to establish schools for girls in Pakistan. In 2000, I met DIL’s CEO at an event and offered to make a donation. She asked if I would instead start a chapter in San Francisco -- to raise awareness about DIL’s work and to raise funds. I got a small group of friends and started the chapter in 2001. We organized annual fundraisers for DIL. I served on the international board of DIL for 13 years. As a board member, I made annual trips to Pakistan to visit our schools and meet with our students, teachers and parents.
I...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I remember several years ago one of my friends pointed out the fact that women had to bring jackets to church in the middle of the summer because it was always so freezing. I had grown up my whole life with my teeth chattering in church buildings, but had never thought about it. My friend said, “well, of course. Men wear suits - pants, long sleeves, jackets, socks and shoes to church. And the church leaders (always exclusively men) are the ones who show up to their meetings at the church in the mornings and set the thermostats. They’re not being mean; they just don’t realize that half the people in here have to wear dresses.” I thought of that conversation when I read the preface to Caroline Criado Perez’s book, Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed For Men, which we’ll be discussing today. She says that the gender data gap is composed of missing information, or “silences,” in all kinds of scenarios: “These silences, these gaps, have consequences. They impact women’s lives every day. The impact can be relatively minor. Shivering in offices set to a male temperature norm, for example, or struggling to reach a top shelf set at a male height norm. Irritating, certainly. Unjust, undoubtedly. But not life-threatening. Not like crashing in a car whose safety measures don’t account for women’s measurements. Not like having your heart attack go undiagnosed because your symptoms are deemed ‘atypical’ For these women, the consequences of living in a world built around male data can be deadly.”
She goes on to say that this is not malicious or deliberate on the part of men, but is an understandable blind spot. However, this “non-thinking” about women has a serious impact just the same, and this modus operandi must change… but before I get ahead of myself I want to welcome my reading partner to the program, Barbie Hada Harper. Hi, Barbie!
Barbie: Hi Amy! So great to be here with you.
Amy: (Tell how we know each other, invite you to share your bio)
Barbie: born and raised by my parents in Mission Viejo, CA - only girl w/3 brothers dad is Japanese-American, born as his parents migrated back to their CA home after being imprisoned in the Japanese internment camps of WWII / mom is Caucasian; being bi-racial has informed my life experience raised a member of Church of JC of LDS –– great values and examples but church itself is highly patriarchal - this aspect has been challenging for me at times As a child, by default socialized more as a boy in some ways with 3 brothers –– confident achiever––student body president, valedictorian, voted “most likely to succeed.” Even then I planned on being a stay-at-home mom. In my teens, I began to sense that my ambition made some men uncomfortable: 1) Remember a boy I dated said he was concerned about how I’d do as a mom since I was so ambitious. 2) I once shared with a man at church (a doctor) that I was interested in medical school; he counseled me to not go to medical school b/c it callouses women’s nurturing qualities. Fast forward––undergrad at BYU in Fitness and Wellness Management, served 18-mo. volunteer mission. When I met my husband (Idaho farm boy), I cancelled all plans to pursue masters. Felt it was more noble and practical to support his education and career over any dreams of mine. We have 4 children, ages 7-15. I’ve stayed at home most of the time, doing some freelance editing and PR on the side, and I’m currently studying holistic health, nutrition, and detoxification with the goal to become a practitioner. Also love art and design. Motherhood IS noble, but I also believe in the importance of fatherhood, and my husband has felt an increasing amount of grief over the heavy burden that it’s been for him to be the sole provider. When I heard stat that Iceland men and women equally contribute to home incomes, and concurrently, Iceland has the lowest suicide rate for adult males,
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we’re going to start with a riddle: A father and son get in a severe car accident and are both badly hurt. An ambulance arrives and takes them to separate hospitals. When the boy is taken in for emergency surgery, the surgeon says “I can’t operate on him because this boy is my son”. How is this possible? -- The surgeon is the boy’s mother. Had you heard that riddle before? I remember hearing it as a kid, and my mind was blown when I heard the punchline. The fact that the joke is still in circulation, and that it still flummoxes people, is a commentary on how we view (or don’t view) women in positions of power in our society. Our author today is famed Cambridge University professor Mary Beard, and in her book Women & Power: A Manifesto, she writes that despite the fact that there are more women in leadership positions than there used to be: “our mental, cultural template for a powerful person remains resolutely male. If we close our eyes and try to conjure up the image of a president or - to move into the knowledge economy - a professor, what most of us see is not a woman. And that is just as true even if you are a woman professor: the cultural stereotype is so strong that, at the level of those close-your-eyes fantasies, it is still hard for me to imagine me, or someone like me, in my role.” Before we get into this amazing book, I want to introduce my reading partner today, Louisa Gillett. Welcome Louisa! Louisa: Amy: Louisa and I are both in the Masters of Liberal Arts program at Stanford (more about how we know each other) Could you tell us a bit about yourself, Louisa? Louisa: Bio My name is Louisa Gillett, I worked as a tv producer and commissioner, and then in government roles as a media regulator, in England until my daughter was about 2, and then we moved from England to California for my husband’s work, and it was such a big change for us that I decided to take a break and focus on family life. She’s 7 now, and I’m in grad school at Stanford and I also do pro bono media work for some organisations and charities that I really care about. My mother is black - originally from Nigeria - and my father is a white Englishman, and I grew up relatively unaware of the issues of patriarchy – partly I think because they were masked by race – my mum was a teacher and when she came home exasperated at what she was dealing with – it would be something like a white parent calling her the N word and threatening to set their dog on her when she went round to see why the kid hadn’t been coming to school. And whatever consciousness of difference and inequity I had was formed along the lines of those kinds of experiences. Also, I went to an all girls school from age 6, so there was never a sense of science being a boys subject or anything like that. But I think the diminished expectations of women are part of the cultural water we all swim in, even when we don’t really know it. And I do remember that by the time I got to the end of my time at University, I was pretty clear that I needed to think and talk and write like a man in order to be really successful –and I remember having a big argument with a gay male friend of mine, who thought that was a betrayal of my self, and feeling really unconcerned by it. It was just how it was. Amy: And I also like to ask my reading partners what “breaking down patriarchy” means to them, or why you were interested in doing this episode. Louisa: Response Well in adult life, especially in the workplace, I noticed that women were vulnerable in a way that men simply weren’t – men started a family and got a pay rise as they were stepping up, women went on maternity leave and found themselves being edged out on their
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing the book, Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong and the New Research That’s Rewriting the Story, written by Angela Saini and published in 2017. And today I want to start with a quote from the book about the author’s own experience: “When I was promoting my first book, Geek Nation, I went to the city of Sheffield to give a talk. When I finished, a short, middle-aged man came over to ask some questions in private. ‘Where are all the women scientists? Where are the women Nobel Prize winners?” he asked, sneering. “Women just aren't as good at science as men are. They've been shown to be less intelligent.’ He walked up so close to my face that I was literally backed into a corner. What was a sexist rant quickly became racist, too. I tried to argue back. I listed the accomplished female scientists I knew. I hastily marshaled a few statistics about school-age girls being better at mathematics. But in the end, I gave up. There was nothing I could say for him to think of me as his equal.” (11) I’m starting with this quote because one of my best friends has a family member who frequently lectures their family - including the young girls in the family - about the scientific evidence that proves men’s superiority to women. So for myself, for my friend, for all of you listeners who have ever found yourselves caught off-guard and wondering how to respond when you hear about women’s “proven inferiority,” today’s episode will provide some sound bites to use next time that happens.
And I’m so excited to welcome Dr. Chantal Dolan to the program. Welcome, Chantal!
Chantal: Hi Amy. Thanks so much for having me today.
Amy: (How we know each other, invite for you to share bio)
Chantal: I’d be happy to give a brief background. I am an epidemiologist by training. I used to have to explain what that was, but in this new covid world pretty much everyone at least has heard the term epidemiologist. I grew up mostly in North Carolina (but my parents were both from the West), I am the 4th of 4 daughters with 1 younger brother. I was raised by parents who themselves had relatively traditional roles in the family but raised me to believe that I could pursue a career for myself and that the things that were most important in life were family, faith, and education. Family dinner topics often centered around what books my parents had recently read. My parents were both raised in pretty rural settings out west and were the first in their families to go to college but both of my parents were active learners. My Mom was an English major and teacher but I think wished she could have been a scientist. She was fascinated by all things scientific. When I was in high school, she took classes in biology and chemistry at the local community college because she realized she was interested in learning more about those topics herself. My mom died relatively young, so those of some of my most treasured memories of my mom--talking about science together.
I left NC after high school and have been out West ever since. I did my undergraduate work in Human Biology at Stanford. After graduation, I spent 3 years working in the Infectious Disease labs at Stanford medical center. I was working on CMV (cytomegalovirus) but I was working alongside scientists doing the early HIV/AIDS work. It was a pretty interesting time to be sure, but I realized I didn’t actually love laboratory/benchwork and so I decided to pursue epidemiology--the study of the cause and distribution of human diseases. I did a masters in public health at UC Berkeley in epidemiology and biostatistics and then went back to Stanford for my doctoral work in epidemiology. I always thought I would go into academia and be a professor, but I ended up going into private industry. I worked for Genentech (a major biotech company) for about 6...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing Peggy Orenstein’s Girls and Sex. I consider this book essential reading for anyone who is a girl or loves a girl, but I’m including it in this podcast on patriarchy because in our historical timeline, it contributes meaningfully to a conversation that we started in the very first episodes. Remember that for millennia, men thought of women’s bodies as their possessions, and their reproductive capacity was considered a commodity. Up until about 100 years ago women were still considered to be “owned” by their husbands under the laws of coverture, and marital rape was outlawed only in 1993, a vestige of the belief that a man owned his wife’s body and was his, to do whatever he wanted with it. Then in 1931 Virginia Woolf said that the one thing women couldn’t write about was sex (even though men could), and in many ways that is still true today. Our Bodies, Ourselves paved new paths in the 1970’s, but we are still figuring out girls’ and women’s bodies and sexuality in the context of always having been overseen and monitored and controlled by men. I think it’s important to remember that historical context as we consider this book as it relates to patriarchy. Also, obviously, given the title of the book, this episode is about sex, so please be advised of the subject matter, which we are (on purpose) going to discuss very openly.
And I am very excited to discuss this book with my reading partner, Natasha Helfer! Thanks for being here, Natasha!
Natasha: (Response)
Amy: Natasha Helfer and I met in Northern California a few years ago at a lunch for progressive Mormons - I was seated next to Carol Lynn Pearson, who is a hero of mine, and I was in heaven because whenever I turned to my left I got to talk with her, and whenever I turned to my right, Natasha I heard you and my husband Erik talking about sex shame in conservative religions, which is something I think about a lot so I felt torn at that lunch! I knew who you were and admired you so much - I had heard you speak on sexuality on several podcast episodes and was such a huge fan of your work. And I still am! So I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about this book, but before we jump in, I’m wondering if you can tell us a little bit about who you are. Where you come from and what makes you you.
Natasha: Bio
Amy: Awesome. And I also like to ask my reading partners what interested them in participating in Breaking Down Patriarchy. Do you have a thought or two on that?
Natasha: Thoughts on this topic
Amy: Thanks so much. Our last step before we start discussing the book is to learn just a little bit about the author, Peggy Orenstein. I’ll read just a bit about her and what led her to write this text.
Peggy Orenstein was born in 1961 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She earned her bachelor's degree from Oberlin College in 1983, and began her career in New York City, as an Associate Editor at Esquire Magazine. She subsequently served as editor of multiple other publications before moving to San Francisco to become Managing Editor of Mother Jones. She left that post to write full time in 1991. Orenstein lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband and their daughter. She is the author of many books, including Cinderella Ate My Daughter, Girls and Sex, which we will be discussing today, and her newest book, Boys and Sex, which I will be reading soon as well. Orenstein has been a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine and AFAR, and has also written for the Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Atlantic, and The New Yorker, and has contributed commentaries to NPR’s All Things Considered. She has been featured on many television shows and on NPR’s Fresh Air and The PBS News Hour, and her TED talk, “What Young Women Believe about their own sexual pleasure,” has been viewed over...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. In 2012, an article in The Atlantic was being widely shared among my friends. It was called Why Women Still Can’t Have It All, and it was by a Princeton professor named Anne-Marie Slaughter, and I remember reading it several times and hearing from other full-time moms how validated they felt in their choice to stay home with kids. Several months later, my husband and I went to dinner with some of his grad school friends, and the women there, who were mothers who worked outside the home, were also talking about the article, but with a lot of consternation and a feeling of having been betrayed. The article turned out to be one of the most widely-read pieces ever published by The Atlantic, and the author continued engaging in the national conversation on the topic of work-life balance, eventually publishing a book called Unfinished Business: Women, Men, Work, Family, in 2015. This is the book we read for today’s episode, and I’m so excited to discuss it with my reading partner, Neylan McBaine. Welcome, Neylan!
Neylan:
Amy: (How Neylan and I know each other) -“To Do the Business of the Church: A Cooperative Paradigm for Examining Gendered Participation Within Church Organizational Structure -Women At Church: Magnifying LDS Women’s Local Impact
Neylan: Foundational years in online marketing in Silicon Valley have allowed Neylan to pursue a varied and fulfilling career as a non-profit executive, author, brand strategist, retail marketer and software company owner. A native of New York City, Neylan began her career working for Wal-Mart’s online ecommerce site, Walmart.com, in San Francisco where she was one of the first employees. Upon moving to Salt Lake City, Neylan was recruited to work in house at the agency responsible for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ campaign, “I’m A Mormon.”
Neylan has also been a long time advocate of women, particularly within her religious community. She is the founder of the Mormon Women Project (now the LDS Women Project), the author of the bestselling book Women at Church: Magnifying LDS Women’s Local Impact, and in 2016, she founded Better Days 2020, a non-profit which popularizes Utah women's history through education, legislation and the arts. Since co-founding Better Days 2020 in 2016, Neylan has become a leader in speaking and writing about women's leadership and the U.S. suffrage movement, with a specific focus on Utah and the west's early role in that movement. Her third book, Pioneering the Vote: The Untold Story of Suffragists in Utah and the West, was published in August 2020.
Earlier this year, Neylan shifted directions and acquired a small software company that provides studio management tools to independent music teachers. She is thrilled to be using everything she’s learned up until this point to return to her first love: music. Neylan is a graduate of Yale University, mother to three daughters, and lives in Salt Lake City.
Amy: And what interested you in the project?
Attended an all-girls school growing up where we read feminist treatises and literature from a very young age. Have led several non-profits focused on women’s advocacy. Because of my business experience, my specialty is the practical implementation of ideas that change hearts and minds of the general public. Also, move towards cooperative solutions in corporate and social structures. For example, I actually started a company before BD2020 called the Seneca Council in which I developed an evaluation that measured the level of gender optimization in corporate workplaces. Kind of like an audit of a company’s policies, culture and structures. Didn’t get very far, but I’m really committed to the idea that public and private policy needs to lead the way in the next step of gender cooperation.
Amy: Intro of the author, Anne-Marie Slaughter:...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. All of us have heard or used the term “mansplaining” - that thing that happens when a man explains something to you that he assumes you don’t know, when you do know what you’re talking about because of your professional expertise or your own lived experience. These interactions reveal that this man thinks that instead of being your peer he is in a role of your dad or your teacher or your boss. The author Rebecca Solnit published an essay online in 2008 called, “Men Explain Things to Me,” which went viral and has become a touchstone for feminist thinkers and everyday women, and it now appears on many “essential reading” lists, which is why we’re discussing it today! This essay inspired the coining of the term “mansplain”, although the essay doesn’t say the word and Solnit herself says she doesn’t use it. Solnit says she has mixed feelings about the word, as I do I, but before we talk about the word, and about this essay and some others in Solnit’s collection, I want to welcome back to the podcast Malia Morris. Hi, Malia!! Malia: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Listeners will remember Malia from our very first episode after the introduction, The Chalice and the Blade. So excited to have you back, Malia!!
Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself, Malia, maybe review some of your key stats and then tell us a story or anecdote that illustrates who you are?
Malia:
Amy: Before we talk about these essays, let’s learn a bit about Rebecca Solnit.
Malia - Bio:
Rebecca Solnit was born in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport,_Connecticut (Bridgeport, Connecticut) in 1961, to a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish (Jewish) father and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Catholic (Irish Catholic) mother. When she was 5 years old her family moved to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novato,_California (Novato, California), where she grew up. She said of her childhood: "I was a battered little kid. I grew up in a really violent house where everything feminine and female and my gender was hated.” She enrolled in an alternative junior high in the public school system that took her through tenth grade, and after that she passed the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Educational_Development (General Educational Development) tests and skipped high school altogether. She enrolled in junior college, and then when she was 17, she went to study in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris (Paris). She returned to California to finish her college education at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_State_University (San Francisco State University) and then received a master's degree in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism (journalism) from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Berkeley (University of California, Berkeley) in 1984. She has been an independent writer since 1988, and has written many many books and essays, including a memoir in 2020 entitled Recollections of My Nonexistence, and has won several prestigious writing awards. Amy: So let’s talk about these essays. Solnit starts out with a story, so let’s start there. She talks about attending a party with her friend Sallie when she was about forty years old, at a cabin-mansion in Aspen that was owned by a wealthy older man. The whole crowd at the party was older and wealthy, and as Rebecca and her friend were preparing to leave the party, the host found them and said “No, stay a little longer so I can talk to you.” He said “So I hear you’ve written a couple of books,” and she replied that she had written several. And I’ll read the rest of the interaction. “He said, in the way you encourage your friend’s seven-year-old to describe flute practice, “And what are they about?” They were actually about quite a few different things, the six or seven out by then, but I began to speak only of the most recent on that summer day in 2003, River of...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy, I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Last week we read “feminism is for everybody” by bell hooks. I love bell hooks for so many reasons - she is so thorough in her thinking, exploring all sides of every issue, she is always grounded in both truth and love, and she has a manner that is accessible to everyone, whether you have a PhD from an Ivy League or had to drop out of school at a young age to earn money for your family - she is a true humanist. This week’s author is Roxane Gay, and her book, Bad Feminist continues in that bell hooks tradition of being razor-sharp in analysis, but relatable and down-to-earth. If you watched her TED talk, “Confessions of a Bad Feminist” you might think that she’s a professional comedian - she’s so funny and real - and she explains that the title of her essay collection, Bad Feminist refers to the fact that she messes up all the time and falls short of her own ideals… just as we all do. Which is a huge relief to listeners and readers. Interestingly though, Roxane Gay is not primarily a comedian - she’s a writer and public intellectual who has a PhD and is a professor at Yale. But before we get into that, I want to introduce my reading partner, Setareh Greenwood. Hi, Setareh! Setareh: Hello! :)
Amy: Setareh and I know each other through my daughter Lucy, who did the episode on the UN Declarations of Human Rights. (I’ll say a little more about you…) Can you tell us some more about yourself?
Setareh: Sure thing! I’m 18, I’ve lived in California my whole life, I’m bi, and I’m half Iranian. My mom came to the US from Iran when she was 14 for highschool and then ended up having to stay here due to the Iranian revolution in 1979. My dad’s family is of European descent, according to 23&Me, he’s mostly British and German and his family came to the US roughly around the same time as the Mayflower, so they’ve been here for quite a while. Both my parents come from religious extended families (Baha’i and Muslim on my mom’s side and Christian on my dad’s) and atheist households. They’re both atheist and I would say I’m agnostic ? but I’m very very curious about Islam, the Baha’i faith, Zorastrianism, Sufism, and other religions that have influenced Iranian culture in particular. I’ve grown up pretty isolated from Iranian culture beyond my immediate family, so I’m always trying to learn more about it. I’m also really into Shakespeare, theatre, and music, and I stress paint quite a bit :) I’m going to be an English major next year (which is mostly exciting but also slightly terrifying) but I’m keeping my options open because I’m interested in a lot of things and I have a hard time picking just one thing. I haven’t picked a college yet but I’m leaning heavily towards Mount Holyoke :)
Amy: Awesome. And what interested you in Breaking Down Patriarchy? I remember you and Lucy doing a project together for your Honors American Literature class where you compared and contrasted your experiences in your faith traditions - Lucy with Mormonism and yours with Islam. Does your religious background inform your thoughts and feelings about patriarchy, or are they mostly non-religious factors?
Setareh: I think they’re largely non-religious factors but I’ve definitely thought about those factors in the context of religion a fair bit. I think that considering how to apply feminism and feminist values to a religion can be a good litmus test for how practical and compassionate those values actually are. For instance, people often make the argument that the hijab is anti-feminist and that banning it (as they’re doing in France at the moment) will free women from patriarchy without considering how essential autonomy and choice are to feminism and that in banning hijab, they are forcing women to conform to their idea of gender performance, which is just as harmful. It’s really frustrating that even people who consider themselves feminists or who operate...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are going to discuss one of the most clearly-written, accessible texts on Patriarchy and Feminism that I’ve ever read. It’s called “feminism is for everybody: passionate politics,” and it’s by the iconic author, professor, cultural critic and social activist, bell hooks. It was originally published in the year 2000, and for this episode my reading partner and I read the new edition that came out in 2014. And speaking of my reading partner, I’d like to introduce Gina Haney. Hi, Gina! Gina: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Gina and I met during our first week of a Master’s program at Stanford, and we have taken several classes together, including one called “International Women’s Health and Human Rights” and another called “The Civil Rights Movement in History and Memory.” So we’ve had lots of enriching discussions on these topics through the years, and I know the kinds of compelling insights that you bring to texts, Gina. Before we dive into the book, can you tell us a little more about yourself?
Gina: As a woman in my fifties raised in rural Virginia, I cherish the diversity the world has to offer and have spent several years living and working in the Middle East, Africa, and South America. In 2008, I founded Community Consortium and began, with the government of Iraq, a stakeholder-driven management plan and World Heritage nomination for the site of Babylon.
A mother of two girls, I appreciate the women who worked and are working to establish a more inclusive and empathetic world, like bell hooks.
I received my undergraduate degree from Mary Washington University and a graduate degree from the University of Virginia.
As Amy said, I am currently pursuing graduate studies at Stanford University. My research topic is understanding the Power of Place in a township in Zimbabwe. I plan to examine this place through the lens on the colonial government and the contemporary residents. Ultimately, i will understand these two narratives within the story that is being told to tourists about this place today.
I have been a Girl Scout leader for 7 years, I love to knit and preserve food from my garden.
Amy:
Thanks, Gina. It’s so great to have you here. Let’s now learn a little about the author. Gina, can you tell us about bell hooks?
Gina:
We are using the biography that bell hooks has chosen to represent herself on the bell hooks institute website. It says:
“bell hooks is an acclaimed intellectual, feminist theorist, cultural critic, artist, and writer. hooks has authored over three dozen books and has published works that span several genres, including cultural criticism, personal memoirs, poetry collections, and children's books. Her writings cover topics of gender, race, class, spirituality, teaching, and the significance of media in contemporary culture. Born Gloria Jean Watkins in Hopkinsville, Kentucky, bell hooks adopted the pen name of her maternal great-grandmother, a woman known for speaking her mind. hooks received her B.A. from Stanford University, her M.A. from the University of Wisconsin and her Ph.D. from the University of California, Santa Cruz. Her books include Ain't I a Woman: Black Women and Feminism, Rock My Soul: Black People and Self-Esteem, Teaching to Transgress: Education as the Practice of Freedom, Teaching Community: A Pedagogy of Hope, Where We Stand: Class Matters, We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity.” And Feminism Is for Everybody: Passionate Politics--the text we are discussing today. Also interesting to note is that bell hooks does not capitalize her name. On the website of the university where she teaches, Berea College in Kentucky, it explains this choice: “she has chosen the lower case pen name bell hooks, based on the names of her mother and grandmother, to emphasize the...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today is our fourth and final episode on LGBTQ history and rights, with our essential texts being Obergefell v. Hodges, The Trouble With Normal, by Michael Warner, Cruising Utopia: The Then and There of Queer Futurity, by Jose Estaban Munoz, and No Future: Queer Theory and the Death Drive, by Lee Edelman. Today we are going to discuss the last of two of those titles, and my reading partner is the spectacularly brilliant historian and teacher, Matthew Nelson. I’m so excited for this conversation with you today, Matthew! Thanks for being here! Matthew: Great to be back in conversation with you, Amy. Amy: Could you introduce us to the subject matter of today’s texts, maybe starting as usual with some background?
Matthew: Few communities, like survivors of genocide, understand what it is to face annihilation -- both as an individual and member of a group. I was just a boy when the HIV/AIDS brutalized the queer community, but as a student of history I try to read every book and watch every movie related to this extraordinary and tragic moment in order to understand better. David French’s How to Survive A Plague, an emotionally arresting and informative book and documentary, most certainly ranks among my favorites to help me inhabit the experiences of gay men, who bore the brunt of the pandemic in the Long 1980s. I also obsessively watch Angels in America, Beats Per Minute, and The Normal Heart because I never want to be too far away from my community’s brush with queer generational annihilation. I talk to all of my gay forefathers of San Francisco about this darkness. One of the common themes remarked on frequently in these conversations is the disenchanting experience of seeing crowds of young gay men ambling about the sidewalks like zombies -- emaciated and stumbling. They tell me they went to a funeral every week, sometimes multiple times a week. Their circle of friends -- vanquished in the span of a decade. I used to live on Alamo Square in San Francisco, and I would jog to the Castro, a historically gay neighborhood, to visit my gym. I passed an older African American man who sold beautiful flower arrangements on a street corner who would smile and wave almost every time I passed. One day, I saw another of these documentaries called We Were Here, and I recognized that one of the men profiled in this PBS film was Guy, the same street-side florist who waved me on as I made may way to the gym. The next workout, I resolved to stop and say hi to Guy. So, I did. He was delighted that I admired his contributions to the film. I asked him what it must have been like to sell the funeral flowers to attendees of all these funerals, and he said, “Business was never better!” with a chuckle. Guy elaborated on his stories of death and dying to me, of course with a dolorous tone. But, he wanted me to know that younger gay men like me have to remember that death is forevermore an important part of our history, and we cannot be afraid of death. Instead, and this is where his tone shifted to jubilance: “We have a FUTURE!” Queer theorist, Heather Love, characterizes this contradictory experience as “looking forward” while “feeling backward.”
Guy’s words reminded me of the concluding interviews with ACT-UP leaders Gregg Bordowitz, David Barr, and Peter Staley in France’s How to Survive A Plague. The men say:
Bordowitz: I FEEL VERY FORTUNATE, AND THERE'S PROBABLY A LOT OF COMPLICATED REASONS WHY, BUT I STILL FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT TO PLAN FOR THE FUTURE, AND/OR ACCEPT THAT I WILL HAVE A LONG LIFE. WHICH IS UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE I'VE HAD A LONG LIFE AND I'VE BEEN LIVING WITH AIDS FOR 20 YEARS. BUT IT'S HARD FOR ME TO RELAX INTO LIFE.
Barr: I KNOW LOTS OF US WENT THROUGH REALLY DIFFICULT TIMES AFTER... UM, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WELL, WHAT DO I DO NOW? YOU KNOW. NOT JUST BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK I HAD A FUTURE AND NOW I DO, SO I HAVE TO MAKE SOME...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. A few years ago I was traveling in Asia and we took a bus out to a large lake where there was a floating village. As we took a boat out onto the lake and the shore disappeared behind us, I felt as far from home as I have ever felt, and a friend I was with was even more out of her element and visibly very uncomfortable. She leaned over and said “why are we here?” Right as she asked that, a tiny boat floated up alongside ours, and a woman looked at me and we locked eyes. We were about the same age, and I had a profound sense of shared humanity. My heart swelled beyond what I felt my body could hold as this woman looked right into my eyes, and I thought, I’m here because these people are real - as real as I am. I want to know about all the people I share this planet with not only because I am curious and I want to learn as much as I possibly can, but also because I love all my siblings, not just the ones who look like me or live like me. And also, as I talked about on our previous episodes, sometimes if we don’t make meaningful connections with people beyond our communities and our comfort zones, we might unwittingly harm them. We might support a war that kills and maims them or sanctions that impoverish them. We might unthinkingly use slang that demeans them. We might support policies and vote for legislation that limits their civil rights. Connecting with others’ ideas and others’ lives, in person and in books, helps us to make more informed choices, to make bonds with our siblings in this big human family, and to realize that we are not the center of the universe. SO. With the books I read for these last two episodes, I traveled farther from home than I had yet on this podcast! I’m so glad I did, and I’m so grateful to have my dear friend Matthew Nelson here to guide the conversation again. Welcome, Matthew!
Matthew: Great to be back, this time surveying the wildest lands of queerdom.
Matthew, you’ll remember that when we were talking about doing an episode on Obergefell v. Hodges, you suggested that we expand the conversation beyond marriage equality, and suggested some critical queer theory texts. And I must admit: sometimes I did find myself feeling so far out into unknown territory - so far from my home assumptions and beliefs, I thought “wait, why am I here?” and I had to remember “because my siblings live here” and it was a powerful experience for me to spend time inhabiting - via these books - a queer world, where queerness is central and I was the outsider. So thank you for holding my hand on this journey!!
Matthew: I too can feel out of sorts reading these queer theory texts of liberation. I am a cisgender male still learning how to hold my privilege responsibly, working toward an anti-racist, gender egalitarian future. The queer theory on offer today also accosts me as a married man. Have I capitualited to an assimilationist agenda, supplanting the true political legacy of Stonewall? How might these texts embolden me to challenge my own assumptions of queer futures and democratic ideals? Personally, how might these texts move me off a gender performative binary, to a deeper embodiment of selfhood? Like all good books -- from the Good Book to Karl Marx’s Das Capital -- we really need to be shaken from the rigidity of ideology, certainty, and comfort as much as we can.
Amy: So let’s dig in… we’ll review Michael Warner today, and Lee Edelman and Jose Esteban Munoz on our next episode.
Michael Warner is considered one of the founders of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory (queer theory).
He was born in 1958, and received two https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts (Master of Arts) degrees, one from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Wisconsin%E2%80%93Madison (University of Wisconsin–Madison) and one from...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. For me, one of the most memorable quotes from Tara Westover’s book, Educated is where she says, “Never again would I allow myself to be made a foot soldier in a conflict I did not understand.” In our previous episode, I described exactly this phenomenon in my own life: When I voted against marriage equality in California in 2008 I allowed myself to be made a foot soldier in a cause I did not understand. Since that time I have changed my thinking and I’ve tried to atone for what I see as a grievous moral error, but I until now I had not taken the time to become educated on the topic of LGBTQ history. So this has been an incredibly meaningful journey for me. When I thought of Obergefell v. Hodges as a critical text for Breaking Down Patriarchy, I knew exactly who I hoped would be my reading partner - he is a dear friend with whom I’ve talked about this issue in the past, and he is also probably the smartest person I know. It’s Matthew Nelson, and I’m so happy to welcome you back today!
Matthew: Thank you for having me back to your podcast!
Amy: Please, explain “Breaking Down Patriarchy”, or what “patriarchy” has meant in your life
Matthew: I’ll be brief on this point because I want to carefully deconstruct what patriarchy is to LGBTQ people. From my father to Catholic and Evangelical religious leadership, I have encountered “toxic masculinity.” I also want to be clear that I have encountered beautiful masculinity that need not be patriarchal and hegemonic. For instance, the now deceased Brother Edward at the Catholic school at which I taught, modeled sensitive, queer-affirming leadership even as a member of the Benedictine monastic community. If you recall from the last episode, throughout my life I have stood up to and stared down the most egregious performances of patriarchy. I have come to conclude that I just don’t think cishet [cisgender, heterosexual] men are encouraged to critically evaluate how dominant culture has conferred upon them a power that can -- witting or unwittingly -- cause great harm in the world. Thus, cishet men are generally blithely unaware of the real abuse and oppression they dole out to women and queers. We can speak more about this later.
Amy: Before we discuss the text, could you set the stage by talking about some of the underlying social systems that make up the world around us? Sometimes we are so accustomed to the matrix of beliefs and customs and power dynamics that surround us that we don’t even see them, and we don’t recognize that it doesn’t have to be this way - human society could have evolved in a totally different way. So could you give us some background information to set up our discussion on Obergefell v. Hodges?
Matthew: I would be happy to do that. As I am sure your devoted, learned listeners of this podcast will have surmised by now, the Venn diagram of patriarchal oppression that falls on women and on the LGBTQ community has much overlap. Of course patriarchy doesn’t exclusively refer to ancient civilizations’ political distribution of power -- the 20th-century feminists taught us that. Patriarchy is also a modern social system that subordinates, discriminates, or is oppressive to women. To state it differently, it is the priority of men to dominate with distributed power to other men in a conscious or unconscious attempt to marginalize women. This socio-political organization is socially constructed -- not dictated to us by nature, not genetic, nor of the gods as men often maintain -- and rooted in the systems and structures of society. These constructs have been with us for so long there is a givenness to them -- a self-evident quality of factivity that makes it difficult to critically examine, deconstruct, and create a new kind of world. So, what has this go to do with the LGBTQ community?
Patriarchy creates the necessary conditions not only for sexism to
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are presenting a four-part series on patriarchy and the LGBTQ community with the crux being the Supreme Court case Obergefell v. Hodges, in 2015, which granted same-sex couples the right to marry, and effectively overruled states’ rights to prohibit same-sex marriage. My guest is my dear friend and classmate in Stanford’s Masters of Liberal Arts program, Matthew Nelson - Hi, Matthew! [Hi, from Oakland Amy!]. I am so deeply honored to be on this journey with you, Matthew. [There is no one I trust more with the map, compass, and provisions for this journey than you, Amy.] This week’s episodes will be a bit different from our prior discussions: First, we are devoting an entire episode to our personal stories on this topic, which we wrote in the form of personal essays and will share today. This will be Part 1 of the series. And for the first time ever, we’re recording this episode on video as well as audio! So watch for it on our website, and we may choose to post it on YouTube as well. On our second episode, Matthew (who is a master teacher of history) will explain the historical context and the details of our essential text, Obergefell v. Hodges, and on the third and fourth episodes, we will take the Supreme Court case as a point of departure to discuss some critical questions and issues within queer theory. So let’s begin. I will share my story first, and then Matthew, you’ll share yours.
My story begins with a quote from the book Fear and Trembling, by Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard. In this passage Kierkegaard is talking about the faith of the Biblical prophet Abraham. A harder test was reserved for him, and Isaac’s fate was placed, along with the knife, in Abraham’s hand. And there he stood, the old man with his solitary hope. But he did not doubt. He did not look in anguish to the left and to the right, he did not challenge heaven with his prayers. He knew it was God the Almighty who was testing him; he knew it was the hardest sacrifice that could be demanded of him; but he knew also that no sacrifice is too severe when God demands it — and he drew the knife. -Søren Kierkegaard,http://web.jst.ufl.edu/pdf/fearTrembling.pdf ( Fear and Trembling)
In the Fall of 2008, my husband Erik and I were living with our four small children in the heart of Silicon Valley, not far from San Francisco, CA. Erik had recently finished his MBA at Stanford, and one night he told me that his friend and former classmate Dane wanted to come over and talk. Of course he could, I answered — Dane was kind, funny, smart, and didn’t seem to mind the kids running around. But I was nervous. The election was getting close, and the air was electric with tension. Every newspaper, every poster-plastered street corner, every conversation sparked with controversy over Proposition 8, a measure which sought to deny same-sex couples the right to marry. Erik and I were Mormon, and we had been asked by our Church leaders, whom we had been taught were spokesmen for God Himself, to donate our time and money to the “Yes on 8” campaign. And so we did. We donated money, we canvassed our neighborhoods, knocking on doors and handing out flyers, and we were planning to vote Yes on 8. We hadn’t talked about it with Dane yet, but he knew we were Mormon, and we knew he was gay. Dane showed up on our doorstep with chocolate chip cookies. I let the kids have a couple while we chatted (they were thrilled - it was bedtime!), and then I rounded them up and took them to bed, straining my ears to hear what the men were saying in the other room. After Dane left, Erik recounted the conversation, which was indeed the confrontation I had feared: Dane asked Erik point blank if he was going to vote against same sex couples’ right to marry, and Erik answered honestly that he was. Dane asked him how he could do that, and Erik...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s book is called The Gender Knot: Unraveling Our Patriarchal Legacy, and it’s the first text we’ve read that was written by a man since we read John Stuart Mill’s The Subjection of Women several months ago! I have loved reading all of these books by women, but as I read this book it hit me how important it was that a man had written it, and here’s why: One of the biggest lessons I’ve realized in my education on racism recently is that society often places the burden of changing racist structures onto people of color… when the responsibility should be on the people who uphold those structures. So racism is a problem for white people to solve. White people need to own it. Likewise, sexism - which exists in all cultures in various ways - is often treated as a “women’s issue,” so as Jackson Katz says in his TED talk, men often tune out and don’t pay attention. So I love that Dr. Allan G. Johnson, who was a sociologist and college professor - and a man - took on patriarchy as his life’s work. And I was really gratified to see a lot of online reviews of his book written by men, who said this book helped them see things they had never considered before. So I’m really excited to discuss this book today, and want to welcome my friend Kasey Cruz to our discussion. Hi, Kasey!
Kasey: (Say hi - I’m so happy to be here! Or whatever comes to your mind) :)
Amy: I met Kasey a few years ago - she became part of our family’s little bubble of safe people during the Covid lockdown and she was our family’s fitness coach when all the gyms were closed down. She is so incredibly energetic, cheerful, optimistic, and hard-working, and she’s just a couple of years older than my oldest daughter so she became a dear friend as we spent hours together chatting between burpees and jump roping. :)
So one day while we were working out Kasey, you told us about your grandmother and about your great-grandmother, and we were so mesmerized that we stopped mid-exercise and wanted to know every detail. And that conversation led to me asking you to be on the podcast. So I wonder if you can tell us about yourself, and start with the story of your great-grandmother.
Kasey: My name is Kasey Cruz, I am the oldest of two children. Just me and my brother. My father’s family is Guamanian and my mother’s family is a mix of German and Cherokee and Palentin Indian. I was born and raised in Los Altos, California where I currently live. I recently graduated from Chico State University in the year 2020, sadly during the pandemic. I graduated with a Bachelor’s in Kinesiology and a minor in Adapted Physical Activity. For anyone that doesn’t know Kinesiology means, it is the study of the body and its movement. I had many life changing experiences during my time at Chico. I was involved in programs that helped individuals with physical and intellectual disabilities of all ages be involved in sports and exercise. Also, I interned at an elderly care facility for those with dementia and memory loss. There I led group exercise classes. I also played soccer since I was four years old and ended up playing for about 2 years at the collegiate level. I’ve always had a passion for sports and exercise and loved the physical and mental challenges. At the university, I found a passion for helping others achieve their goals and challenge themselves through physical activity. Which leads me to what I am currently doing, I am a personal trainer, a strength and conditioning coach for athletes, and a group trainer at F45.
Now a little bit about my great, great, great grandmother. As a little girl, we had this family tree project where we had to make a visual board of our family lineage on both sides. My mom was helping me with her side of the family and she told me that my grt grt grt grandmother was Cherokee and she was the chief’s daughter. Her name was Starshine Chitwood and...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s topic may be difficult for some listeners - we will be talking about violence against women, including all kinds of physical and sexual violence. The essential text we are discussing is the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, given at the United Nations in 1993, and we are including it in this history-based project on systemic patriarchy because throughout history, violence against women and particularly domestic abuse was seen as a private matter, sometimes in some places, even endorsed by the state. But even when not promoted, patriarchal institutions have condoned or disregarded violence against women, looking the other way and failing to protect victims and survivors, and instead protecting the perpetrators of that violence. Even the United Nations’ Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, or CEDAW, in 1979 (and listeners should look that up if you haven’t heard of it), neglected to address violence against women. So in 1993, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted this resolution, the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and we’ll be sharing passages from it today. It’s an incredibly important declaration, and in addition we will be sharing important, difficult stories that require a lot of strength. My reading partners and I went over this content in a very detailed way beforehand so that they could choose what they wanted to talk about, and I’m really honored and grateful for this amazing mother-daughter team, Elena and Abigail Gonzalez, who are with me today to discuss this issue! Hi, Elena and Abigail! Elena/Abby: Hi, Amy! Amy: Our family met Elena and Abigail in California in 2006, and we have been dear friends ever since. Occasionally in my life I have had a feeling, right when I met someone, that I knew them already, which in my religious tradition we explain with the belief that all human beings lived together as siblings in one family before we were born. Elena, I had that feeling really strongly when I met you, like “oh, I know you,” like I remembered you. That’s only happened a handful of times in my life, and I’m so grateful that we are friends. And Abigail, we have known and loved you since you were little, and I’m so grateful that you agreed to be here and have this important discussion today! Abby: Response Amy: So I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about yourselves and tell your story. Elena, why don’t you go first. Elena: My name is Elena Gonzalez. I was born in Mexico, and I grew up with seven siblings, three sisters and three brothers. It was a family that was really dysfunctional. Unfortunately, ever since I can remember, I have suffered abuse….[pause] of every type. My mom and dad were completely oblivious to everything going on… my siblings and I were pretty much on our own. My parents eventually separated, and I remained alone with two older brothers, so at that point I was the youngest. As time passed the abuses continued… from cousins, my brother - my own brother - [pause]... step-fathers, when my mom brought us with her to their houses. As I grew up I never went to school. I wanted to go to school, so finally I started when I was ten years old, and I attended until I finished my first year of high school in Mexico. Then I came to the United States. Like so many people I immigrated to the United States without any documents. It was really difficult and I arrived here with my mom and one brother and one sister. Once I arrived here they didn’t put me in school; instead they took me to work, and I have been working ever since. After awhile I met the man who is the father of my three children. (pause) Unfortunately it was an experience that went on for 15 years and was really really difficult. At the...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be reading The Sacred Hoop: Recovering the Feminine in American Indian Traditions, by Paula Gunn Allen, written in 1986. My reading partner is the amazing Sherrie Crawford, whom listeners will remember from way back at the beginning of the podcast on our episodes on Gerda Lerner’s The Creation of Patriarchy! Welcome back, and thank you so much for being here, Sherrie!! Sherrie: Hi Amy, thanks for having me! (or whatever you want to say) :) Amy: And can I start by sharing something really quick? I was recently talking with a friend about the feeling of discovering that women had come before us and made huge intellectual and psychological contributions that we didn’t even know about and therefore weren’t able to benefit from… and she said “it’s like that part in the movie ‘Moana’ - Moana has been drawn to the sea for her whole life, not really knowing why, but she feels like it’s her power and her destiny… but she’s all alone in that calling. Then she goes into that cave and sees the ships of her ancestors and she’s like “WHAT??? Why didn’t anyone tell me we are literally descended from voyagers??” I think that analogy is powerful for all women as we become educated about our intellectual foremothers, but I thought of you specifically, Sherrie. Because in those first episodes, you shared as part of your biography that the side of your family that you thought was “Spanish” was actually both Spanish and Native American, and that had a huge emotional impact on you. And this book shares how so many Native American cultures, before European colonization, were matrifocal, matrilineal cultures that were much more egalitarian than the European cultures that oppressed them. So for me it’s kind of poetic and emotional to call all of these women on the podcast “my foremothers” - they are spiritual foremothers. But for you they are not just your emotional, intellectual foremothers - they are your literal, genetic ancestors. And I kept thinking of Moana singing “We are descended from voyagers” and thinking of you discovering your foremothers.
Sherrie: Grandma Lucero: “We are Spanish people,” and you have the Spanish red hair Your siblings have darker hair, complexions, so they have moved through the world differently than you have - they look more Latino 23 and Me test - not Mexican ancestry, but Pueblo Nation in New Mexico Class at BYU-I: The Spanish conquered and enslaved the Pueblo Nation in New Mexico
It’s interesting to think about how we view maps and borders between countries: New Mexico was Mexico for so long, and before it was Mexico, the borders between nations were different too. I had thought of “Native American” as different from “indigenous Mexican,” but really our current borders have nothing to do with the pre-European-imposed borders.
Sherrie: Naturally, I struggle with borders, or divisions between lands, schools, teams, families. My nature wants more inclusion everywhere, and the whole notion of an arbitrary boundary feels false or unnecessary. I really do love maps though. Before we sell or own land, it has to belong to someone, but who says who that original someone is? The whole concept is weird.
Amy: Ok, so before we get into the book, let’s talk a bit about this author: who she is and why she wrote The Sacred Hoop.
Amy: This biography is taken mostly from a tribute to Paula Gunn Allen on the occasion of her death, on her website, http://www.paulagunnallen.net (www.paulagunnallen.net).
Paula Gunn Allen was born Paula Marie Francis, to Elias Lee Francis, former Lieutenant Governor of New Mexico, and Ethel Francis, in 1939. She grew up on the Cubero land grant in New Mexico, which is a Spanish-Mexican land grant village bordering the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_Pueblo (Laguna Pueblo) reservation....
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. If you are a listener who loved our episode on The Gospel of Mary Magdalene or Mary, Mother of God, then you will love the texts we are discussing today: WomanSpirit Rising: A Feminist Reader in Religion, and Weaving the Visions:New Patterns in Feminist Spirituality, both edited by Carol P. Christ and Judith Plaskow. These books contain essays that were written in the 70’s 80’s and early 90’s, and they reflect a movement within feminism that was grappling with the patriarchal aspects of religion, and rather than rejecting religion altogether as so many feminists were doing at the time, these authors were working to retain the spiritual, the mystical, and the ritual parts of religion while still confronting and challenging patriarchy. As an introduction I’m going to read just a couple of sentences from the 1992 version of WomanSpirit Rising. It says that some feminists... “are convinced that religion is profoundly important. For them, the discovery that religions teach the inferiority of women is experienced as a betrayal of deeply felt spiritual and ritual experience. They believe the history of sexism in religions shows how deeply sexism has permeated the human psyche but does not invalidate human need for ritual, symbol and myth. While differing on many issues, the contributors to this volume agree that religion is deeply meaningful in human life and that the traditional religions of the West have betrayed women. They are convinced that religion must be reformed or reconstructed to support the full human dignity of women.” And no one better to discuss this issue with than the magnificent Maxine Hanks! Welcome back, Maxine. [Hi Amy -- thanks for inviting me to read this book with you, it holds a lot of meaning for me personally.
This project has already been so enriched by your wisdom and experience! You’re an expert on many Women’s Studies texts, but my understanding is that in the tradition of the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the Letters on the Equality of the Sexes by Sarah Grimke, you are a person of faith and most at home in feminist theology. Is that right?
Maxine: Yes, I’m a feminist theologian and historian, focused on women’s studies and women’s history in religious culture, mainly in LDS/Mormon culture and in Christianty. My spiritual path, personal faith journey and my scholarly path, scholarly work are very intertwined. My work on recovering feminism in Mormon history and culture overlapped with my own personal work to find feminist voice in Mormon culture, and my own path through feminist theology, clergy formation and ministry overlapped with my scholarly work on feminist theology in Christian tradtion and LDS tradition. So as I found my way in life and work as a feminist, I found my way as scholar in feminist work, the two were interdependant. I’m a deeply spiritual person, I rely on my relationship with god for decisions about both my life and professional path. I’m a minister, chaplain, and theologian, historian, and I see spirituality as one lens, one approach, one hermeneutic method among others, so my work brings spirituality and scholarship together. I think it requires multiple approaches, interdisciplinary work to adequately assess the situation of women in religion -- gender studies training, historical method, and theological/religious studies, so I trained, took degrees in all three to use in my work.
Amy: If you’re comfortable, I’d be grateful if you could talk about your own journey as a feminist theologian, including your book, Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism, and the ensuing events after the publication of that book.
Maxine: Sure, the main thing to mention about my work, my book and WSR, is that they parallel each other, taking a very similar approach, and with similar results, but ten years apart. WSR came in...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Thus far on Breaking Down Patriarchy, we’ve talked a lot about how the system of patriarchy has impacted women, but we haven’t talked much about what it means to be a woman. Simone de Beauvoir famously said “one is not born, but becomes, woman,” and we talked about the concept that sex is biological and gender is social, or put another way “sex is between the legs and gender is between the ears.” But today we’re going to discuss a groundbreaking text that called those assertions into question and paved the way for queer theory. It’s Judith Butler’s Gender Trouble, written in 1990, and I’m so happy to have the brilliant and very experienced Maxine Hanks here to discuss it with us! Thanks so much for being here again, Maxine. Maxine: It’s always fun to discuss books with you, I love your podcast. I’ve been looking forward to discussing Gender Trouble, it’s a major feminist work that changed the landscape of feminist theory and gender studies. I was majoring in women’s studies in the late 1980s and early 1990s when this book came out, so it loomed large in our program, and reading list, shaping feminist theory courses at the U.U. I found it really challenging yet invigorating then, and it has continued to be both since, along with Butler’s subsequent works.
Amy: This book was recommended to me by you, Maxine, and once you mentioned it I started seeing it referenced everywhere, including by my friend Matthew, who will be doing our episodes on LGBTQ history and queer theory, and told me I had to read Gender Trouble as a primer. :) So I’m very glad we added it to the reading list! Although I must say it’s pretty dense and academic and jargon-y, so most listeners will probably appreciate the summary, rather than reading the whole thing. It’s definitely a text you would read in a grad school course on gender theory - not something you would take on vacation. So we’ll really appreciate your experience having taught this book!
I’ll start us off with a brief intro of the author, and then I’d love it if you could provide some context and framing before we start sharing passages of the book.
I’ll note that Judith Butler is legally nonbinary, and Butler goes by both she/hers and they pronouns. In sharing her bio right now I’m choosing to use “they” pronouns, and I’m going to be completely honest and a little vulnerable in sharing that because I was raised in the time and place I was, and because I don’t have any nonbinary friends, it feels very new to me and thus outside my comfort zone to use “they” pronouns. So while Judith Butler would be ok with “she/her” pronouns, I am going to use “they/their” so that when I meet nonbinary people in the future I will have some practice. During the rest of the episode I might revert to she/her, but I want to be clear that if Judith Butler said “please use ‘they’ then I would use ‘they’ the whole time.
Judith Pamela Butler was born in 1956, in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland,_Ohio (Cleveland, Ohio), to a family of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Hungary (Hungarian-Jewish) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia (Russian-Jewish) descent. Most of their maternal grandmother's family perished in the Holocaust. Butler's parents were practicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism (Reform Jews); their mother was raised https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism (Orthodox), eventually becoming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism (Reform), while their father was raised https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism (Reform). And here I have to just have to comment again - it keeps coming up - the contribution of Jewish people to the field of philosophy and women’s studies!! And I want to point out that Reform Judaism is a major https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_movements (Jewish denomination) that...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. I remember one time several years ago, my husband and I were getting ready to go out somewhere fancy. I took a shower, shaved my legs and underarms, dried off, moisturized with one lotion for my body and one lotion for my face, blow-dried my recently-color-treated hair to make it straight (it naturally dries in small curls), then used a curling wand to make it have big curls. Then I put on a bra to lift my boobs higher than they naturally are, Spanx to suck my torso to look smaller than it actually is, a dress, and high heels to make me look taller than I am. Then on my face I did a little concealer to make my skin look a more consistent color than it really is, eyeshadow and eyeliner to alter the appearance of my eyelids, mascara to make my eyelashes look longer and thicker and black (when they’re really just brown) eyebrow gel to darken my eyebrows, (but first I tweezed them to be a different shape than they really are.) Then some bronzer to make me look like I was blushing and some lip gloss to make my lips look shinier than they are naturally. And of course a little jewelry for some added sparkle. Next to me, my husband took a shower, dried off, put on his suit and flat shoes, and, okay, he did put lotion on his face and hands and put in one dab of one hair product in his hair. And he was ready to go. And I thought - wow. I just altered almost every aspect of my body in order to measure up to society’s beauty standards for women - and I spent a lot of time and thought and money on each and every one of the products that enabled me to meet those standards. And my husband altered nothing, and spent no extra money, and absolutely no extra thought. And I thought: I have been sold something here.
Todays’ book is called The Beauty Myth, written by Naomi Wolf in 1991, and I am super excited to discuss it with my reading partner, Vanessa Loder. Hi, Vanessa!
Vanessa: Hi, Amy! I am really thrilled to be here supporting you and this podcast. I have been trying to unwind all the ways I’ve internalized the patriarchy for the last decade and the layers of that onion just keep peeling back and go deeper than I ever realized.
Amy: I met Vanessa in 2005, when my husband and Vanessa were assigned as table partners during their MBA at Stanford. Vanessa was like a 20,000 watt lightbulb - whip smart, hilarious, intimidatingly accomplished in her education and her career already even before business school, and drop-dead gorgeous. And yet she was also just so approachable and kind, she was impossible not to love, and we’ve actually become closer friends during the past few years at reunions and weddings and retreats and stuff, and I just adore you and am soooo grateful that you’re here today to talk about this book!
Vanessa: (I’m saving all my mushy truths about you so I can surprise you and make you blush!) ;)
Amy: So could you start us off by telling us a bit about yourself? Who you are, where you’re from, what makes you you.
Vanessa: Bio.. Will do!
Amy: I also like to ask my reading partners what interested them in Breaking Down Patriarchy.
Vanessa: Why you agreed to do this :) As a feminist spiritual teacher, this is at the heart of who I am and the work I do in the world. But really, it comes from my own pain points. They say you teach what you most want to learn and that has definitely been the case for me. There are so many ways that I have accidentally internalized messaging I really don’t believe in by going along with mainstream messaging, culture, family and community beliefs and attitudes, and it hasn’t made me happy or fulfilled. It feels like some of the biggest and most important work of my life to intentionally unwind all the ways I’ve inadvertently internalized the patriarchy, and then carry that out into the world to create external change too. So yeah, this podcast couldn’t...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I bought the book Sister Outsider, by Audre Lorde, several months ago in preparation for this episode, and every time I passed it on my bookshelf, those two words would drop into my consciousness and stay there for awhile. Two words that are so laden with meaning and emotion, and are complete opposites. A sister is one of the most intimate relationships a person can have - your very own family, sharing your DNA and your home. And outsider - a stranger, an intruder, someone who is not brought into fellowship. I thought of the great human family, which really is how I was taught to see the world, with all people as siblings, and I thought of what Audre Lorde was trying to tell me with that two-word title - that some of my sisters feel like outsiders in their own family. And so before I even started the book I was deeply moved. And as I read it I felt so grateful that she shared her powerful mind and her poetry with the world, and I felt humbled to be able to read it and learn. This is a book I would recommend for all listeners to purchase and read slowly and carefully. So we’ll get into this book in a minute, but first I want to introduce you to my reading partner today, Suzette Duncan. Welcome Suzette! Suzette: (Response) Amy: Suzette and I met in Palo Alto in 2015, when my two youngest kids were attending a school where Suzette was a teacher, and she became one of the all-time favorite teachers of both of my kids. And one memorable moment was in the summer of 2016 when our family was walking along the Highline in New York City in an absolute crush of people - huge crowd - and there was Suzette!! Literally about to bump into each other! I think my kids will always remember that - like seeing “home” in a sea of strangers. We adore you and miss you and still think about you all the time.
We like to start each episode with an introduction of our reading partner. So Suzette, could you tell us about where you’re from, your family, what you love, some things that make you you?
Suzette: My family is from the West Indies, like Audre Lorde’s. We are from Guyana, which is on the mainland of South America. It was a British colony and so is the only English speaking country in South America. We have family in Venezuela and Brazil as well. And, because Guyana was a British colony our family includes people of native, East Indian, and African descent. My family’s origin is very important to me and has colored how I see the world. For instance, I would say two seminal events in my childhood involve the West Indies, even though I only visited Guyana once as a toddler. They are the Jonestown Massacre and the invasion of Grenada by the United States. Those events caused me so much distress and fear as a kid, and also highlighted my feeling of being different, since they were not worries shared by black or white american peers. Can I interject here? I’m so embarrassed to admit that I’m one of those white Americans who doesn’t know about the Jonestown Massacre or the invasion of Grenada. Can you tell me quickly what those events were?
My twin sister and I were the first people in our family to be born in the US. My mom came to the US first, followed by my dad (they’d known each other since they were kids), and then my grandparents and their two youngest kids, my aunt Allison and Uncle Steve. I actually learned at my grandmother’s funeral that she left Guyana the day of one of my uncle’s weddings to arrive in the US to start a new life and in time for the birth of my sister and I. I grew up in NYC, in a big extended family. The last of my cousins arrived in the US in 1981 or 1982. Until I was about 9, our house was home to grandparents, aunts, uncles, god parents, cousins, etc. I loved the way I grew up. It was a big change for me when started living more apart, though I lived within walking distance of my grandparents and some cousins until I left NYC....
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Last week we discussed the book Women, Race, and Class, by the controversial intellectual and cultural icon, Angela Davis. That book was published in 1981, and undertakes the telling of American history with Black women as the main focal point. This week’s book was also published in 1981, and it takes on a similar project, looking at American history and culture through a Black feminist lens. It’s called ain’t i a woman, of course referring to Sojourner Truth’s famous speech, and it’s by the brilliant and beloved author, bell hooks. Interestingly, although Angela Davis’ book and bell hooks’ book came out the same year and address similar topics, they are very different, and one significant difference is that bell hooks had written the first draft of ain’t a woman ten years earlier, when she was a 19-year-old freshman in college at Stanford University. She published it when she was 29, after graduating with her PhD from UC-Santa Cruz. (Angela Davis taught at UC-Santa Cruz after hooks graduated). So ain’t i a woman technically predates Women, Race and Class, and it reflects a younger voice and a different personality. And I’m so excited to talk about it today with my guests, Manuela Zoninsein and Ashley Jackson Beal. Welcome, Manuela and Ashley!! (Hi, etc.) :)
So I’m kind of third-wheeling today - Ashley and Manuela are close friends and I think it will be so beautiful and really powerful to have you two discussing this work together. One of my hopes with this podcast is that people will actually read more of these texts and discuss them with their friends and their families, which is very much bell hooks’ vision and goal as well.
Manuela and I know each other through our husbands - Manuela’s husband Andy was one of my husband’s first friends and best friends at business school, and they are still peas in a pod and partners in crime. :)
I’m so excited to have you here today, Manuela, because you are absolutely brilliant and fascinating, and a role model for my daughters. You’re doing so much good in the world, and you’ve been a feminist and a scholar for a lot longer than I have - your whole life really, and I hope you talk about that in a minute.
And I’m so thrilled to have you here today, Ashley! Ashley and I met recently through Manuela, and is also an incredible mind and soul, and it was Ashley who suggested this book, which I’m so grateful for. I’ve been recommending it to everyone I talk to ever since you put it on the reading list.
I’d like to start with introductions, so I’d love for both to talk about where you’re from not only on a map, but in terms of your family and community of origin and some things that make you who you are.
Manuela: Hi Amy! It’s such an honor and pleasure to be here. Thank you for having Ashley and me on your podcast, and, more fundamentally, for starting and leading this incredible project.
It feels particularly special to be here because I’m just learning, as a new mom, how much the values of egalitarianism, curiosity, and what Jewish people call “Tikkun Olam” - repair the world - start early, passing from parent to child. This realization has led me to reconsider and appreciate anew how uniquely I was raised, and how important it is that I start early with my son.
First off: I’m an immigrant, the child of immigrants, and the grandchild of immigrants. My sister and I were born in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to an American mother and Brazilian father. Each one had a parent who had immigrated: my dad’s dad to Brazil from Moldova and my mom’s mom to the US from the Russian-Ukraine border. I trace some of my individual traits to their journeys: I consider myself scrappy, resourceful, frugal, curious for knowledge, hard-working, and globally oriented. I’m also pretty hard on myself and hold myself to high standards, which is one of the reasons I’ve dug in the...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s book is Women, Race, and Class, by Angela Davis, and when I was reading this book in preparation for the episode last month, I left my copy of it out on my kitchen table. A person I know who is a generation older than I am walked past and raised her eyebrows and said “hmmm, Angela Davis, huh?” So I quickly grabbed the book and stuffed it in my bag. I shouldn’t have done that, no matter how controversial the book might have been, but the truth is, once I read the book I realized there was nothing to worry about anyway! It was just a history book. A really interesting, really readable history book, and a hugely important contribution to American history because it foregrounded and placed as central the experience of Black women. Angela Davis does continue to be a controversial figure though, and I’m so excited to discuss her life and this book with my reading partner, Brianna Jovahn. Welcome, Brianna! Hi! Second only to me, Brianna knows Breaking Down Patriarchy better than anyone else in the world - she’s our editor so she’s been working tirelessly behind the scenes, listening to every word of every episode of the podcast. So we know each other really well, and Brianna, you have been an absolute joy to work with, etc. :) Can you tell us a little about yourself? Brianna: My name is Brianna Jovahn and I am the creator of What Good the podcast. Initially, my goal was to climb up the corporate ladder, but the Lord said something differently. I’m from Cedar Hill, Texas and graduated from Cedar Hill High School. I went to Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas and graduated with an Accounting degree. After securing my first job, after college, I stayed in Houston for another year. I was away from family but so close to my friends, so I really wasn’t as focused as I should have been. My mom called me one day and asked what were my next steps in life, and I really could not answer. After taking some time to pray, I decided to move home to get my MBA. Once I graduated from school a second time around, I was still unfulfilled with my life. I started working at ADP but I found an internship that allowed me to move to Los Angeles for two months. The day I saw the application, I immediately prayed because the move was going to cost me $5,000. I asked God if he could supply the cost, let’s make it happen. In God’s will, I was accepted in the program, and came up with the money within 2 weeks.That experience really helped me understand what’s for you is for you. All you have to do is walk into the opportunity.
Moving forward to where I am presently, I moved home from Los Angeles and for some reason, I felt like it was time to get my life together, officially. At this point, I was back in the corporate setting, but I also had a vision about a hobby I wanted to pursue in college, and that was radio. In college, I had so many friends that were creative. I had several friends who created a clothing brand, I knew someone that sold his own watches, someone who helped build the football stadium and the list went on. On top of that, our conversations were amazing, so I could only imagine what the show would include. So I’m back home, diving deep into my career, and the idea for the show came to me twice over from the original idea. It was more for me to learn about the local community of Dallas. I was still driving back and forth to Houston from Dallas and I felt the need to slow down. It was time to find out about my hometown, and that was the foundation of What’s Good podcast. It has been such an amazing journey to where I help and coach other podcasters. If that means editing the podcast, marketing, helping strategize shows, and so much more. I have never felt so fulfilled in my life.
Amy: And this is where I usually ask my guests what “Breaking Down Patriarchy” means to them. This will be a very different question for you,...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s book is This Bridge Called My Back: Writings by Radical Women of Color. It’s an anthology of essays, letters, and poetry by Black, Native American, Asian American, and Latina women, some of whom identify as lesbian. It was edited by Cherrie Moraga and Gloria Anzaldua, and published in 1981. I had never read a book like this before, and because all the essays are written in the first-person, and based on their real lives and thoughts and feelings and hopes and anger and grief, I had the sense of sitting next to them or reading their diaries - which was sometimes uncomfortable. And I am sooo grateful for that discomfort because it pushed out and expanded the borders of my understanding and helped me think about some things differently, and it increased my empathy. And I’m not someone who has lived in a bubble - I’ve lived abroad in several different countries, I speak Spanish and have many close friends in South America, I am lucky to have a circle of friends that includes lots of different backgrounds. And yet with this book, I found myself constantly pushed to learn, to consider new points of view, and my heart and mind grew so much. So I highly recommend reading this book in its entirety! And I’m so excited to discuss it with my reading partner today, Jenn Lee Smith. Hi, Jenn! Jenn: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Jenn and I have tons of mutual friends in California, and our daughters know each other as well, but it wasn’t until a few months ago that she and I went on a few walks together and discovered that we have a ton in common and should have been getting together for years. Also, some listeners may be familiar with Jenn’s work: she is a producer behind the award-winning films, “Faithful,” which is about “two women in love with each other and their religion,” and “Jane and Emma,” which is about the friendship between Joseph Smith’s wife Emma Smith and a Black convert named Jane Manning James.
Jenn, I’m so grateful that you agreed to read this book with me - I know you had read it before - in fact I think you were the one who suggested putting it on the reading list, right?
I remember when you were first building up your reading list, I was missing the books that helped define my feminist identity in grad school. I had read This Bridge Called My Back and Sister Outsider and declared myself a Third Wave / Transnational Feminist. Lol. Roxane Gay - Bad Feminist - realized I was better at being a Bad Feminist.
Introduce yourself - tell who you are, where you’re from, and what perspective you bring to the discussion.
Jenn: Bio
I was born on an island called Taiwan and most Taiwanese would like it to be recognized as a country, however, China claims it is a province. Regardless, Taiwan is a friendly, vibrant, democratic “place” and the first to legalize same-sex marriage in Asia in 2019. I was five when I immigrated to the U.S. growing up in UT and CA. I studied international relations for my undergrad in Utah and then started a PhD in Feminist and Human Geography at UCLA, which I never finished because I discovered screenwriting and film producing classes, instead.
But I did earn a Masters in Geography, which is useful in the film producing of mostly documentaries. I welcome opportunities to be a part of film and writing projects that explore underrepresented stories particularly at complicated intersections. For example, I started my producing career focused on films at the intersection of religion and sexual orientation. One of those films will be out on Netflix in August. It’s called Pray Away. Another film is called Dilemma of Desire about the gender politics around not recognizing female sexual desire - it’s rooted in Audre Lorde’s essay Uses of the Erotic (from Sister Outsider, which is the next book in the podcast?).
Right now I’m collaborating on a film on indigenous knowledge of...
Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today is Part 2 of our discussion on the 1973 Supreme Court case Roe vs. Wade. Last time we introduced this landmark document, and we covered about half of the points of the case. And today we will share our thoughts on some of the key points from the second half of the text. And again I’m joined by my reading partner, Lindsay McPhie Hickok. Hi, Lindsay! Lindsay: Hi, Amy! Amy: We ended our previous episode with the story of Mehnaz in Pakistan. And after we recorded that episode I was thinking that I would like to share another story, this time about someone I know. This is a story of a very, very dear friend of mine, so I won’t say her name to protect the anonymity of her family. But Lindsay you remember her. Lindsay: Yes I do When I was a new mom with just Baby Lindsay, I had a neighbor who had a baby just Lindsay’s age, and we became friends. We took turns watching each other’s babies so we could exercise and then we would eat lunch together, we kept our own food at each other’s houses because we were together so often. We served in church together, spending hours and hours outside of church in planning meetings and doing service for a congregation that had a lot of needs. We got pregnant with our second babies at the exact same time, so we went through the pregnancies together and then had our babies within a week of each other. We shared a lot of really deep conversations - she had a masters degree in social work and we both loved learning about psychology - she was a really curious person and a deep thinker, and she was also really fun. She was one of the best friends I’ve ever had in my life. Eventually she and her husband moved to a different state so that he could go to law school, and I was devastated that she moved, but we talked on the phone sometimes. We weren’t great about keeping in touch - that was before texting and neither of us were really phone talkers… but she did reach out and said “Hey, I just want you to know I just got diagnosed with melanoma. I’m near one of the best cancer hospitals in the country, but it’s complicated because I’m pregnant so they can’t treat it aggressively.” So she and her husband had to make the choice of what to do. She chose to keep the pregnancy and do a very complicated and difficult balancing act of doing what they could to treat the cancer without hurting the baby. She carried the baby as long as she could, and then when the doctors decided the baby was healthy enough, they delivered the baby by C-section. The plan had been to battle the cancer as soon as the baby was out, but it was too late, and Erin died 6 days after her baby was born, leaving her husband with their two little boys and a newborn in the NICU.
Obviously this is really hard for me to talk about - it’s been almost 14 years and I still can’t say her name without crying - but what I want to say is that my friend was a smart person. My friend was a courageous person. My friend was a moral person and a wise person, and she happened to be a spiritual person too. When I think of her being in that agonizing, excruciating situation, I have two really strong urges: the first is that I want to hug her and tell her she is good and brave and that I love her. And the second very strong urge I have is that I want to clear the room to protect her from anybody who thinks they know what is best for her, and just tell them to go home and keep their opinions to themselves. I know that in this moment of anguish my friend brought in her husband and her family and a team of doctors, and she was a person of faith, so I know she prayed every second of that time while she made the decision… and I don’t think it’s anybody’s right to judge her or tell her what was right for HER LIFE and HER FAMILY. That was nobody’s right but hers.
And as I’ve read more and more stories of girls and women - and you can go on the website if you want to read some -...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be talking about the 1973 Supreme Court case Roe vs. Wade. This is such a complicated and delicate topic, and there is so much to discuss, we decided to break up the conversation into two parts. So today will be Part 1 and next time we will resume with Part 2. In preparation, my reading partner read a bit about the case, and then we read the actual case, which we found online on Google Scholar. Neither of us had ever read the original text before, and we both found it to be so much more readable and accessible than we expected - we felt like we could feel the judges wrestling with every angle of the issue, taking it very seriously and so wanting to do the right thing. It was really worth reading, and I’m very excited to discuss it. But before we dig into this essential text and talk about its implications for women, I’d like to introduce my reading partner, Lindsay McPhie Hickok. Hi, Lindsay! Lindsay: Hi, Amy! Amy: Lindsay is my sister, actually the third sister to be a guest on the podcast, so I feel like I should introduce the McPhies! There are five kids in our family - I’m the oldest, then Lindsay, who is here today, then comes our only brother, Scott, and his wife Rachel whom we consider to be a sister too, then comes Courtney, who did the episodes on the Seneca Falls Convention speeches and Margaret Sanger’s “The Morality of Birth Control,” and then Whitney is the youngest, and Whitney did the episode right before this one, on Title IX. We are all extremely close and the best of friends, and I adore and admire them all for different reasons. Scott frequently makes me laugh so hard that I cry, Rachel seems to have all the craziest things happen to her and she is the absolute best storyteller, also often making us laugh so hard we cry, Courtney is a trailblazer in our family by being the first of the siblings to get a master’s degree, and I admire Whitney for her incredible resilience. And Lindsay, one thing I love about you is the passion with which you care for women and babies in your job as a labor and delivery nurse. I wish every laboring woman had a coach and defender and nurturer as fiercely loving and empowering as you are.
So Linz, could you tell us about who you are, where you're from, and what kinds of life experiences and points of view you bring to today’s conversation?
Lindsay: Sure! As Amy said, I am the second child in our family. We grew up in Colorado, and I live in Utah now, with my husband and three children. I like to hike and bike and garden and basically do anything outdoors. I graduated from BYU with a nursing degree, and besides a short stint in same day surgery, I have spent my whole career in labor and delivery. Many of my most intense life experiences come from either the delivery room, or from my faith. I was raised in a very devout Christian home. My parents raised me in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that faith has played a huge part in who I am and in how I view the world. I was taught from the time I was born that God cared about the choices that I made, and that all life was sacred and beautiful. Not only was I raised to believe that life was holy, but I get to see the magic of life every time I go to work. I am a labor and delivery nurse, and for thirteen years I have walked with women as they have labored and birthed their little babies. I love seeing the strength of women. I have seen incredible heroines in the delivery room, and it takes my breath away every single time. In addition to my Mormon roots, I also have Scottish roots and that feels very much a part of who I am. One of my core values is freedom of choice - think William Wallace yelling “freedom!” or, if that is too distant a past, imagine Mormon pioneers walking barefoot across icy plains, suffering sickness and grief, all to have a place where they could worship God...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s text is Title IX, which is the most well-known portion of the https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States (United States) https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Education_Amendments_of_1972&action=edit&redlink=1 (Education Amendments, passed in 1972). This is an incredibly important piece of legislation, and we’re going to get into its history, the way it impacts people’s lives, and the way it is or isn’t enforced effectively. All of this based on just one sentence. And just so listeners are aware, we are going to be talking about sexual assault later in the episode - not a graphic description, but a true story on a sensitive and difficult topic, so please be advised of that. Before we begin our discussion, I want to introduce my reading partner for today, Whitney McPhie Griffith. Hi, Whitney! Whitney: Hi, Amy! Amy: Whitney and I are sisters, and we have had the great fortune of living near each other several times in our lives, but sadly we live far away from each other right now. So it’s been so wonderful to work on this project together. I’m so very grateful that you were willing to talk about Title IX and share your experience and your wisdom. Thank you so much for doing this.
Whitney: I’m happy to be here!
Amy: So could you tell us a little about yourself? Where you come from, who you are, etc.?
Whitney: Yep! I’m from Colorado, mostly. I lived in many different places, but I spent my childhood in CO, then slowly made my way to the west coast. My husband and I moved to Portland from California two years ago, and I really really love it here. I’m a pianist and multidisciplinary artist, and I’m currently working on a graphic design degree. My husband started a company a couple years ago, so I’m also a sort of creative director, editor, photographer, digital content manager, web designer, morale coach, etc for his company. It’s fun.
Amy: And then I also like to ask my reading partners what interested them in this project. What brought you to Breaking Down Patriarchy?
Whitney: I love breaking down patriarchy! I think it’s so important to discuss what patriarchy is-- a complex topic that I don’t think is understood well enough. I’m grateful to join you in this conversation on Title IX, as I have some personal experience with it.
Amy: Thanks so much, Whit. Again, I’m so grateful to have you here today and to hear your perspective as we talk about this document.
So we are going to structure our conversation by explaining Title IX itself, talking about who the major players were in getting Title IX passed, and what its impacts have been. So Whit, could you start us off by explaining a bit about Title IX?
Whitney: Sure!
The official website of the US Department of Education says:
“No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.”
Then it goes on to talk about the scope of Title IX:
“Title IX applies to institutions that receive federal financial assistance from the Department of Education, including state and local educational agencies.
Educational programs and activities that receive Department of Education funds must operate in a nondiscriminatory manner. Some key issue areas in which recipients have Title IX obligations are: recruitment, admissions, and counseling; financial assistance; athletics; sex-based harassment; treatment of pregnant and parenting students; discipline; single-sex education; and employment.”
Amy: Thanks, Whit. So any listeners who heard the episode on the book, Keep the Damned Women Out, about United States universities excluding women from educational opportunities, will know why this legislation was needed. And you...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Our book today was published in 1970, and it’s called Our Bodies, Ourselves: A Book By and For Women. And before we even talk about the content I want to pause and think about the weight of that title. For listeners who have been with us since the beginning, you’ll remember Gerda Lerner’s The Creation of Patriarchy, and how ancient laws designated women’s bodies as belonging to men. For thousands of years, women were legally bought and sold by men. Men had the right to kill a woman for breaking certain laws or to kill her baby if they decided to; men had the legal right to rape and to beat their wives until very, very recently, even in this country. Then think of the medical paternalism in “The Yellow Wallpaper,” and how women were still not believed when they talked about their own physical or mental health. Then remember “The Case for Birth Control” in the 20’s and 30’s, and how the Comstock Laws forbade people from mentioning women’s reproductive systems, and birth control was completely illegal, so women had no idea how to control their own pregnancies or births. When we consider this historical timeline, it feels like a powerful act for women to proclaim OUR BODIES, OURSELVES: A BOOK BY AND FOR WOMEN. It’s an act of claiming ownership and sovereignty. I should also alert listeners that we do talk about sexuality in this episode, so if you’ve recommended this podcast to kids, you should give this one a listen before deciding what age it’s appropriate for. And now I want to introduce my reading partner today, Jessica Harder. Hi, Jessica! Jessica: (Response) Amy: Jessica is my husband Erik’s cousin (younger and cooler than we are) :) , and she’s the niece of the amazing Franceskay Allebes, who did our episode on John Stuart Mill’s The Subjection of Women a few months ago. So to start off, Jessica, can you tell us a little about yourself? Jessica: • born in 1984/ Grew up in southern California. Conservative religious upbringing with a strong patriarchal culture Dutch background influence in upbringing I didn’t realize some of my upbringing was Dutch culture until I later lived there. Dutch culture is closer to an egalitarian society than in the US.
Mixed messages: Many strong women in my family/ women take a back seat to men at church I was also trained to want children and a husband. But could have cared less for this. Parents artist: art was an influence at home Started designing and sewing at the age of 4
At 5 years old I saw a career woman wearing a suit pick up another kid at school. I was mesmerized. At that moment I knew I had to be a career woman. I figured out I could combine the designing and career together and At 16 started designing for a designer.
17 was on the Nordstrom's fashion Board At 18 I went to school for design, which was a no brainer. At the same time I started doing yoga and meditation
Started working for a local designer all through school. When I graduated I took off and moved to the Netherlands.
The first week there I met my husband. I taught myself to speak Dutch. While I lived there I worked in tourism, for a bike company, and in the fashion industry.
Work sent me back to school to study the Dutch language and I started doing translation work for them. After 6 years I ended my time in the Netherlands working for my favorite designer
My husband and I moved to USA. We lived with and took care of my Dutch grandfather for 4 years. I went through a career switch due to: toxic environment, not wanting to promote consumerism, wanting to work less than 70 hours a week. So after 13 years of doing yoga I completed a 200 hour Yoga Alliance Teacher Training Program and became a yoga teacher. In my teaching carrier I taught at a...
Welcome! Let’s dive right in by sharing some passages that we thought were important. First, Millett starts the book with some passages from Henry Miller’s book Sexus, published in the 40’s in Paris but banned in the United States because of anti-pornography laws. And it actually is pornography. I had never read Henry Miller before and was totally horrified and thought maybe Millett had just dug up some scummy author who wrote violent sex scenes… but then I read a bunch online about him, and on GoodReads there were tons of people talking about his genius. Here’s one review of the book: “Some of Miller's most inspiring writing, I think. This is the kind of book you want to come with a highlighter so you can remember where those amazing passages are to quote again and again. That said, it's not for everybody, especially prudes.” So then I understood why Millett took Miller on - some literary critics praised Miller for his artistry, some celebrated his courage in breaking literary boundaries, and some criticized his obscenity, but it seems that nobody read the passages from a woman’s point of view and saw how utterly degrading and misogynistic these scenes are. So I would say - I guess I’m a prude because I hated this chapter and found it super offensive for all the reasons. I personally wouldn’t recommend reading it unless you’ve already read Henry Miller and want to read a feminist perspective. MAXINE: Yes, she takes on Miller because he’s the epitome of sexist, misogyny in the Leftist men who were supposed to be women’s colleagues in the radical deconstruction of oppressive social systems but who hadn’t even realized or bothered to care that women’s bodies and the sexual imbalance of power were the foundation of oppressive systems. Men like Miller who was sex obsessed and deeply sexist, were opposing every oppressive social norm EXCEPT the sexual abuse of women, which they were exploiting themselves as they worked. The men dismissed women’s views, concerns citing “more imp issues than women’s” in the movement. Still see women as sexual beings, objects first So Miller and others like Norman Mailer and D.H. Lawrence needed to be refuted, otherwise feminists weren’t going to succeed at their double task of undoing female oppression and finding female language. Contrasts them w neutralism of Jean Genet Kate said --”unless the real OR fantasized viritlity is abandoned, unless the clinging to male supremacy as a birthright is finally foregone --ALL systems of oppression will continue to function simply by virtue of of their logical and emotional mandate in the primary human situation” -- sexual relations. Mailer redictably responded to Kate’s book in his article “The Prisoner of Sex” attacking Millett, defending Miller and Lawrence. AMY: Then she backs up, and like Beauvoir before her and Lerner after her, she starts at the beginning, examining patriarchy on a historical timeline, asking how things came to be the way they are. Next, she describes the first wave of feminism, which culminated in women winning the right to vote. Then she describes the backlash against that first wave of feminism in the 1930’s, and she writes about the anti-woman backlash within the Nazi party in Germany in 30’s, which is something I had never heard of before, so I’m going to highlight some stuff from that chapter. Later in the book Millett does feminist readings of Norman Mailer and DH Lawrence, who also wrote some very sexually explicit stuff, and she points out how those intimate, personal, interactions contain highly charged power dynamics - the “sexual politics” that the book title refers to. So I mentioned before that I may have Millett to thank for that chapter on Feminist Critique in my Critical Theory book in college. Is that right, Maxine? Did this book open up a path for Feminist literary criticism? MAXINE: Yes, it did, Sexual...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. I first encountered feminism when I was a Freshman in college. I was in an English class, and one of our main text books was on Critical Theory, which are different ways of approaching a work of literature. You can approach a work through a Historical lens, looking at what was going on the world to understand the story. You can look at the work through a Biographical lens, seeing the book as a reflection of the author’s personal point of view. You can analyze the work through a Marxist lens, looking at the role economics and class play in the story. And you can approach the work with a Feminist lens, looking at women and gendered power dynamics. I don’t recall doing any Feminist critique of any literature or History for the entire rest of my college education (which led me to be extremely frustrated later), but at least my introduction to the concept of Feminism was pretty positive - it was just one legitimate way of many legitimate ways of looking at literature and looking at the world, and because I hadn’t gotten any messages about Feminism in my family growing up, and because I was learning about it as a perfectly valid criticism at a very conservative university, I added it to my tool box of thought without any drama. This bit of my personal history is relevant to our discussion today in a few different ways. I was shocked later in life when I discovered that Feminism was such a threatening, really bad word to some people. I often heard - and still hear - people refer to “radical feminism” and “militant” feminism” with fear and disgust, and lump all people who acknowledge the inequitable power balance between the sexes into that category of villainous “radical feminists”. But I hadn’t ever read any real radical feminism until this project, so when I saw that Sexual Politics was one of the defining texts of radical feminism, I wanted to read it so I would understand what people were talking about.
I probably wouldn’t have been learning Feminist Literary Theory in college without the Sexual Politics.
My reading partner today is Maxine Hanks, who is a renowned feminist theologian, historian, and writer in the Mormon world and beyond, and she is a seasoned expert on Feminisms and feminist approaches, as a student, a teacher, and a writer. So Maxine, I am so incredibly honored that you’re with us to share your wisdom about 60’s and 70’s feminism and Kate Millett’s work. Thank you so much for being here!
Maxine: Hi Amy ! it’s great to be with you today to talk about feminism and the ways it breaks down patriarchy.
Amy: Maxine and I met just a few months ago - I had known who you were for many years, Maxine, and I have been so grateful for your friendship and interest in my work. I’m a huge fan and think of you like a Joan of Arc for Mormon women. Could you start by telling us a little about yourself?
Maxine:
I’m a feminist historian and theologian, and author/editor. I studied Humanities, English, and Communication at BYU then transferred to the UU in the mid-80s because it was the only place in Utah that had a women’s studies program and I was dying to study feminist history, theory, critique and language, to find tools that could unpack why I felt imprisoned within male perspective and discourse, unable to voice my own reality as a woman in Utah. That program saved my sanity, taught me how and why women’s bodies, lives and perspectives were colonized within male perspective, language and social structures and how to break out of that. I loved learning different feminist approaches, schools of thought, and how each emerged as a response to that very problem -- finding female voice to express female experience and perspective. Gender studies gave me the answers and tools I desperately needed to find my own voice. So I did a bachelors degree in Gender Studies at the...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. I remember one day when I was about 25 years old, I was talking with a friend and she mentioned the Equal Rights Amendment, and I said something like, “Yeah, of course. So important, right?” And I think from my response my friend could tell I had only vaguely heard of it, so she said “You know it didn’t pass, right? The Equal Rights Amendment was up for ratification in the 1970’s and it didn’t pass.” And to my horror, she then told me that the ERA hadn’t passed because of the leadership of a group of Christian women, and that our own church had been instrumental in its defeat. I felt so betrayed, I literally remember where I was sitting and what I was wearing because I couldn’t make sense of it. It’s embarrassing for me to admit that at the age of 25 I didn’t know the Equal Rights Amendment wasn’t already a part of the Constitution… but apparently I’m not alone - many, many Americans to this day have heard of the Equal Rights Amendment, but they think that like the 19th Amendment, it was up for ratification and there was a big battle to pass it… and eventually it passed. They don’t know that many states still won’t ratify it, and that they may live in a state or belong to a church that opposes it. So this is an incredibly important “essential text” that we’re covering today. It’s really short, but it has a long history that is still unfolding as we speak, and I’m really grateful to have two experts here to clear up misinformation and help us understand this critical piece of legislation! My reading partners today are Emily Bell McCormick and Kelly Whited Jones, co-chairs of Utah ERA Coalition . They represent a coalition of individuals, as well as local and national groups that have been working on the Equal Rights Amendment for decades. Their mission is to educate, elevate the role of women, and ratify in Utah. So I’m thrilled to welcome you today, Emily and Kelly - Thank you so much for being here!! (Hello, etc.) :)
To start out, could each of you tell us a bit about yourselves? (in whichever order you like)
Emily: Bio Born and raised in a suburb of Salt Lake City, Utah Family: mother, father, one sister, two brothers Mother artistic and creative--parents met in Paris. Father kind and gentle--from a cowboy family in Wyoming. Mother had a brain tumor when I was 10 and became bedridden and chronically ill. Passed when I was 19. Memory of reading a book about Joan of Arc with my mom. We laugh about her family being the original feminists. BYU--Communication--thought of political science but didn’t think there was a natural career choice Married The Ohio State University Worked in PR and marketing until started apparel company Shabby Apple Moved to Richmond, VA and then to Arlington--suburb of DC Had three children Sold Shabby Worked in comms consulting Moved to Utah, adopted two kids Experience at Apartheid Museum and meeting with Diana for brunch--The Policy Project
Kelly: Bio
Born in Orem, Utah. Youngest of eight, sister is the oldest, six brothers, then me. Grew up without television, on a small farm. Asked a lot of awkward questions in Young Women’s class - was a regular on the Father & Sons Campout, and begged my parents to let me wear pants to Primary. They let me once. From polygamist pioneer stock -- Edwin Dilworth Woolley’s second wife. President Spencer W. Kimball is my grandfather’s cousin, he attended our Woolley family reunions. Both parents were educators, mom elementary school and dad at BYU. Attended the U of U on a Theatre Scholarship Graduated with a B.A. in Speech Communication, Masters in Environment & Health Worked for the U’s Central Development Office in fundraising. Corporate & Foundation Giving and Planned Giving. Started in publications and PR. Three great kids, Donovan, Reilly & Gabrielle. My husband’s...
Allebest: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. This past year I watched the TV series Mad Men, which depicts life in 1960’s and 70’s America, especially focusing on gender dynamics. One of the most striking bits of dialogue - and it wasn’t emphasized so at a different time in my life it might have flown right past me without me noticing - happened in a scene set in about 1965 in New York City, when the Civil Rights Movement was starting to really pick up steam, and a woman is talking about how she is not allowed to join certain clubs or be served in certain restaurants or get a room at a hotel or a credit card, and many jobs aren’t available to her, and even in the job she currently has she’s paid far less than her male counterparts…. all because she’s a woman. And one of her male coworkers jeers, “What, do you want a women’s march?” The show does such a good job creating the world that you can feel how utterly preposterous that sounded - a women’s march. There hadn’t been demonstrations for women’s rights since the days of the suffragettes, and as we learned from Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique, those feminists were looked down on in the 1950’s and 60’s. But then as a viewer you also have that dramatic irony of realizing, oh my gosh, the women’s movement was about to start but they didn’t know that yet! So with that historical context in mind, we’re going to start today’s episode with a recording from 1970, when that idea of a women’s march had become a reality, and thousands of women were taking to the streets to demand equal rights. (Sound clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eP_8a7PSik) That was Gloria Steinem, in a speech at a Women’s Liberation March in about 1970, and today we are going to read a similar speech by Steinem, called “Living the Revolution”. But before we start, I want to introduce my reading partner, Amy Pal. Hi, Amy! Pal: Hello! I’m very happy to be here. Allebest: Amy and I met in about 2011, in the same church congregation and our kids attended the same Spanish Immersion elementary school. And fun fact: Amy was my daughter Lindsay’s Math teacher for about a year, and I taught her son in Literature circles when he was in 4th grade. Amy is one of the most wise, even-tempered, rational people I know, and I have benefited immeasurably from the hours and hours we’ve spent talking as we’ve run together in the hills of Northern California. So can we start by having you talk a bit about yourself? Pal: Sure. So, I was born in California but mostly raised in Salt Lake City. I grew up in a large family - I have one brother and five sisters - and I absolutely loved being part of a big, bustling family environment. I was raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, also known as the Mormon church, and I’m active in my local congregation. My parents both have professional degrees and both worked in their fields of study. To me, as a kid, my mom was seemingly always around and readily available to me, but she, in fact, worked quite a lot in both paying and non-paying positions. She is a highly accomplished musician. While I was growing up, she was teaching and performing a lot, working on big music projects, involved in a lot of great things. Her job afforded her some flexibility - she could do some of her teaching and practicing from our home, but she also needed to attend committee meetings and a lot of rehearsals. Seeing my mom engaged in worthwhile activities both inside and outside of our home had an immense influence on my understanding of a woman’s role in society. And, she certainly provided an example to me of balancing children and career, so I grew up believing that was doable with some planning and a supportive partner. Both of my parents strongly encouraged me to attain higher education degrees. I never considered not going to...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are back to discuss Double Jeopardy: To Be Black and Female, written by Civil Rights activist Frances Beal in 1969. Last week we talked about some history of the Civil Rights Movement, with SNCC and the birth of the Black Power movement, we talked about Frances Beal, we talked about the words “feminism” and “womanism,” and we set this speech, and the experiences of Black Americans in the context of US history, with America’s practice of enslaving African Americans for centuries, and how that continues to shape our culture, often in ways that American citizens - especially white Americans - don’t even realize. So let’s welcome back to the podcast my dear friend Rayna Clay Mackay! Rayna: 1) We live in a highly industrialized society and every member of the black nation must be as academically and technologically developed as possible. To wage a revolution, we need competent teachers, doctors, nurses, electronic experts, chemists, biologists, physicists, political scientists, and so on and so forth. Black women sitting at home reading bedtime stories to their children are just not going to make it. (170) This was my grandfather’s mission, and I 100% agree. Representation matters. For all. I don’t completely agree with the last sentence because I feel there is great efficacy in being a stay at home mom, but only if that is what you actively choose. Also only if society is structured in such a way to support that. (Think Nordic societies). 2) I have briefly discussed the economic and psychological manipulation of black women, but perhaps the most outlandish act of oppression in modern times is the current campaign to promote sterilization of non- white women in an attempt to maintain the population and power imbalance between the white haves and the non-white have-nots. These tactics are but another example of the many devious schemes that the ruling elite attempt to perpetrate on the black population in order to keep itself in control. It has recently come to our attention that a massive campaign for so-called "birth control" is presently being promoted not only in the underdeveloped non-white areas of the world, but also in black communities here in the United States. However, what the authorities in charge of these programs refer to as "birth control" is in fact nothing but a method of outright surgical genocide. Threatened with the cut-off of relief funds, some black welfare women have been forced to accept this sterilization procedure in exchange for a continuation of welfare benefits. Mt. Sinai Hospital in New York City performs these operations on many of its ward patients whenever it can convince the women to undergo this surgery. Mississippi and some of the other Southern states are notorious for this act. Black women are often afraid to permit any kind of necessary surgery because they know from bitter experience that they are more likely than not to come out of the hospital without their insides. (Both salpingectomies and hysterectomies are performed.) So medical apartheid is a real thing, and it continues to exist today. Historically the Tuskegee experiment with syphilis is the marker, but there is also the use of Henrietta Lack’s cancer cells (without consent or reparation until recently) as the source of the HeLa cell line which is one of the most important cell lines in medical research. Prominent academic institutions have done highly acclaimed psychiatric studies that purported that Black males are more aggressive, and the morbidity and mortality of Black pregnant women is the highest of all demographics (even when controlled for all other socioeconomic factors). The father of modern-day gynecology based all of his findings from experiments on Black women without anesthesia, so I’m honestly not surprised. History, combined with recent research that shows Black people die earlier than White people (because of the...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s text is an essay written by Black Civil Rights activist Frances Beal in 1969. It’s called “Double Jeopardy: To Be Black and Female,” and I must say, it kind of took my breath away. It answered some questions that I have had for a long time, and it introduced new questions that I didn’t know I needed to ask, and it gave me a lot to think about. Also, this essay lends itself to discussion of what it feels like to be black and female in America, and so because I want to give my reading partner Rayna Clay Mackay time to share some personal stories, as well as to discuss the text, we’re going to divide this essay into two episodes. And I’m soooo excited to welcome back a fan favorite on Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast, Rayna Clay Mackay. Hi, Rayna!
Rayna: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Listeners will remember Rayna from our episode on Sojourner Truth’s “Ain’t I A Woman” speech, which Frances Beal mentions here in “Double Jeopardy,” which is a really cool connection. Rayna, I know you said you had read “Double Jeopardy” before, but it was new to me, so I’m really eager to hear your thoughts. But first, could you just tell listeners a little bit about yourself? Specifically I’m wondering if you can tell us a bit more about your family. I remember reading a New York Times article about a member of your family that you posted on Facebook - would you be willing to share a bit about that, and about how your family contributed to make you who you are today?
Rayna: So the article I posted last year was my grandfather’s obituary in the NYT. Rhody McCoy was my mother’s father, and he was a major player in the civil right’s movement. We can talk about him anytime! He raised 6 girls and 1 son (my uncle is the youngest and everyone jokes that if he had been born first, none of the girls would exist!) during the 50s and 60s. He was almost militant in his focus on education as a survival skill for Black people as well as women. He had the same expectation of my mom and her sisters (and subsequently me and my female cousins) that he did of the boys. Which was truly revolutionary at that time and not well known in “popular” culture in regards to Black people. The media and “majority” culture has done a fab job of portraying Black people as lazy, angry, and uneducated etc. That was the antithesis of what I knew in my family and our Black friends.
But to circle back to my parents, my father was a Texan and nuclear mathematician who worked on the atom bomb in the 60s. He had a crisis of conscience (or a mid-life crisis!) and then became a playwright. He and my mom met in NYC off-broadway, and eventually when she moved to SF they reconnected and the rest is history...for a very brief time. He was killed by a drunk driver when I was 9 months old. My mom subsequently lost her mother a little over a year later, and understandably had a very difficult few years. She’s a seeker and was looking for a religious community, and when I was 4, she joined the Church. It was around this time that her talking points deviated slightly from our family in terms of race relations. Growing up, she always told me I could be and do whatever I wanted to be and do. She believed in me 100% and I always felt like my gender was not an issue when it came to accomplishment. But, (and I think this was to help me not feel othered in a majority White church) she really promoted that we are “all alike unto God” and that there is “no color.” This was super hard for me to reconcile as I clearly looked different than almost every person I interacted with (my mom is super light, most un-enlightened people thought she was Hispanic). She chose to immerse me in “church” culture rather than “Black” culture, so it was an interesting dichotomy.
Amy: Thanks so much, Rayna. [I will probably have some follow-up questions here!]
Just to introduce the text a little bit more… this author and
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing an article called “Jane Crow and the Law: Sex Discrimination and Title VII,” by Pauli Murray and Mary Eastwood. This article was published by the George Washington University Law Review in 1965, in response to the Civil Rights Act, which had been passed the year before, in 1964, and it asks “the extent to which the Constitution may protect women against discrimination, and the interpretation of the sex discrimination provisions of the equal employment opportunity title of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.” This article was read, and the argument later used, by a rising star at the A.C.L.U.— Ruth Bader Ginsburg - to convince the Supreme Court that the Equal Protection Clause does indeed apply to women. This is an exciting moment for this history project as the podcast enters the Civil Rights era and we start to hear from authors who have new and more expansive, inclusive conceptions of women’s experiences within patriarchal systems. This is a landmark article, written by brilliant and groundbreaking lawyers. And I am so lucky to have a brilliant lawyer as my reading partner to discuss this work with me today, Rochelle Briscoe. Hi, Rochelle!
Rochelle: Hi, Amy!
Amy:[How we know each other]
So could we start by having you introduce yourself to listeners? Tell a bit about where you’re from and what perspective you bring to the text today.
Rochelle: I'm the youngest child, born into a family of 8 born into a Southern Baptist family-- both of my parents were part of the Great migration. Im ‘ ados & neither parent had even high schools educ.. In fact my Mothers mom-- my MaSue (who I named my daughter after-- was my idol… ) parent raised us in Small rural town in the agricultural part of So cal -- somehow I developed an interest in law & politics at a disturbingly young age. Reading about JFK & MLK in the 2nd grade set me on a path that no 7-year-old should ever determine. I volunteered for neighborhood and local government initiatives, served as student body president (middle and high school), as a Congressional Page in DC AND FELL deeply IN LOVE WITH THE LAW AND POLITICS there, and then decided to apply only to colleges in Washington DC -- (much to parent chagrin, etc… ) attend Georgetown's School of Foreign Service, ...
After studying abroad in Japan, Kenya and Nicaragua, andreturn to the US & enrolled in law school at U.C. Davis (where she was elected president of the Law Student Association-). After law school, I had Federal Clerkship in Sacramento - then moved into an International BigLaw firm. (Add … context role of glass ceiling and Inclusion work on Hiring Councils…) CAL.. NY back to DC
Role of 2008/9 recession... new mom ... I then began using my legal background to conduct targeted searches for Fortune 50 companies and leading law firms, and later joined President Obama's White House Office of Presidential Personnel. I initially led the recruitment and retention of senior presidential appointments, in GC offices, DOJ and fed Inspec gen’l and when the president of the United States calls you his "People Person", you just roll with it.
Moved into Tech with USDS --- Obama plan for partnership with SV to bring fed gov’t into the 21st century with technology (stories re HHS/VA.. Fires etc…) then Google, Created YouTube team for Candidate Development Programs now in multiple roles YT including RJ work across our platform and as the People Officer with coaching & developing tech execs…
The hardest role I continue in is that of wife & mother -- strong willed teen son, Compassionate and wildly confident Lia is 13… two dogs (met daren - very similar backgrounds, lucky to find partner who wants to break the mold with you) … . living the struggle with grace and fun and...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing a book by Princeton professor Nancy Weiss Malkiel called Keep the Damned Women Out: The Struggle for Coeducation. This book is a fascinating in-depth look at the process that allowed women into American and British universities which were historically male, and I must say I was shocked to learn how recently that process happened. But before we blow your minds with the sexism that plagued higher education so very recently, I want to introduce today’s reading partner, Christie Skousen. Hi, Christie! Christie: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Christie and I met in 2008 when we were both living in Los Altos, CA, and we were peas in a pod right from the very beginning. We were running partners in Los Altos for years - I don’t know how many hours we spent talking and running in the Los Altos hills - and you nudged me to do a couple of ½ marathons with you, although you ended up running a few full marathons so I worship at your feet! You’re also one of the smartest, most interesting people I have ever known, and one of the funniest. You’re always teaching me and helping me grow and see things in new ways, so I’m really excited to have you here today.
And now can you talk a little bit about yourself as well? Tell us where you’re from and what makes you you.
Christie: Bio
My ancestors are from… Mormon stock Dad was a professor - big presence in your life Mom was piano prodigy, tell about her career/mother balance a bit. Debuted with you in her belly at Carnegie hall I had two brothers and probably didn’t even realize a gender difference between us until puberty hit. I grew up as a competitive classical pianist and gave my Carnegie Hall debut at age 18. I have had the the opportunity to perform as a soloist and with orchestras throughout the United States, Europe and Russia. Peabody/Fleisher I served on the faculty at the San Francisco Conservatory Preparatory Division Teach students around the world online in partnership with ArtistWorks. I am the founder and Director of the Peery Piano Academy in Mountain View,CA and the author of the Peery Piano Curriculum, which is a certification and training system for piano teachers. Maybe a sentence about work/family balance Married with four kids
Amy: And I’d love it if you could talk about what drew you to the “Breaking Down Patriarchy” project.
Christie: Like all of us, we are raised only knowing what we know, and as I have experienced more life it has been useful for me to take a few steps back and try to observe some of the systems I have supported and agreed to without really realizing it. One of these systems is patriarchy. Patriarchy is something that has been buzzing around mostly unconsciously in my life in various capacities - my family of origin, my temple marriage, my chosen church. Patriarchy is something that was always just accepted as something that is without my ever choosing it, or understanding why it was or how it came about. My interest in this project is to help me better understand those things so I can have a clearer understanding about my own choices going forward.
Amy: So let’s learn just a bit about the author of this book, and then we’ll dive into the text.
Christie: Bio of Nancy Weiss Malkiel Nancy Weiss Malkiel was born in 1944. She was educated at Smith College, obtaining her B.A. summa cum laude and graduating Phi Beta Kappa in 1965, and she went on from there having won a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship to Harvard University for her M.A. (1966) and her Ph.D. (1970). She joined the Princeton University Department of History faculty as Nancy Weiss in 1969, where she rose through the ranks from assistant professor to associate professor to professor. Nancy’s career as a writer and teacher has been a distinguished one. When she came to Princeton, she was...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be talking about one of the most groundbreaking books of the 20th Century. Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique, written in 1963, sent shockwaves through the world that still reverberate today. Some readers may view it as a relic that represents the world as it used to be - the book itself was instrumental in changing society, so a lot has changed since then - but for me, I recognized the “feminine mystique” in many ways as the very world I grew up in, and that still continues today in many conservative religious environments. Particularly Mormon listeners might find it interesting to know that the leadership of the LDS church was standardizing its doctrine and practices in an initiative called “correlation” during the 1950’s and 60’s, so the ideal 1950’s patriarchal American family, with the father as the sole provider and the mother at home, made a huge, indelible stamp on Mormon doctrine and Mormon culture. And I understand from friends of other faiths that something similar happened in other conservative denominations as well. So this book was an absolute revelation for me, and I can’t wait to discuss it with my reading partner today, Marta Wilde. Hi, Marta! Marta: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Marta and I met in Los Altos, California - our oldest children were in high school choir together, and our youngest children were in the same elementary school classrooms at our local elementary school. The first time we talked was when we were both chaperoning our kids’ 5th grade field trip to a local Spanish mission. That’s relevant for today, because the thing Friedan’s book really rails against is being a stay-home mom: one of her chapters is called “The Comfortable Concentration Camp.” So in full disclosure, Marta and I are both currently full-time moms. But anyway, Marta, that day that we chaperoned together, I was so struck by your warmth and humor, and also by your personal story, and I’m wondering if you could share a little about yourself and what perspective you bring to the discussion today.
Marta: Sure Amy. My full name is Marta Luna Wilde. I’m the youngest of nine children, and I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area. I think pertinent to this book is the fact that I have 7 brothers and 1 sister. My family immigrated from Central Mexico in 1962, with my father having worked in the Bracero Program after World War II (he started working in that program in 1948 or 49). In the 60s to early 1980s, my dad worked as a cook at Stanford University which allowed me to play in and around campus throughout my childhood. That was definitely an amazing backyard in which to grow-up. I got a BA from Stanford 1987 and M.Ed from UCLA in 1990. My professional career includes teaching in Los Angeles, Redwood City, and Palo Alto; I served as a program trainer with the Accelerated Schools Project (for disadvantaged schools) while it was still at Stanford’s School of Education; and I worked as a social science researcher developing curricula at the Prevention Research Center at Stanford’s School of Medicine. Currently, I’m a stay-at-home mom, but am interested in finding ways to use my background in education to promote environmental education in schools, specifically with bilingual Spanish/English language learners. On a personal level, I’m married to my physicist/engineer husband and we have three daughters aged 13,13, and 21. The twins attend school in Los Altos and my older daughter goes to college in NYC. Despite the pandemic, our family is thriving in this crazy world turned upside down. Covid-safe visits with my 93 year old mother in nearby Sunnyvale help keep me grounded and provide an optimistic perspective on day to day living.
Amy: Thanks so much, Marta. And then I also like to ask my reading partners what their thoughts are on Breaking...
The Mother: Fyza In this chapter Beauvoir sets out to demystify motherhood by presenting women's experiences of pregnancy and mothering in all their difficulty, complexity, and ambivalence. However, Beauvoir works with a contrast between transcendence and immanence which inclines her to interpret pregnancy and maternity in terms of immanence (i.e. repetition, unfreedom). “It is through motherhood that woman fully achieves her physiological destiny; that is her “natural” vocation, since her whole organism is directed toward the perpetuation of the species. But we have already shown that human society is never left to nature.”(p. 524) Abortion “There are few subjects on which bourgeois society exhibits more hypocrisy: abortion is a repugnant crime to which it is indecent to make an allusion... meanwhile, in France every year there are as many abortions as births.” (p. 524) Why is Abortion abhorred? It is claimed to be a dangerous operation. But honest doctors recognize, along with Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld, that “abortion performed by a competent specialist, in a clinic and with proper preventative measures, does not involve the serious dangers penal law asserts.”
Forced Motherhood Forced motherhood results in bringing miserable children into the world, children whose parents cannot feed them, who become victims of public assistance or “martyr children.”(p. 525)
Male Hypocrisy Men universally forbid abortion; but they accept it individually as a convenient solution; they can contradict themselves with dizzying cynicism (p. 532)
Control Birth control and legal abortion would allow women to control their pregnancies freely. (p. 533)
Pregnancy But pregnancy is above all a drama playing itself out in the woman between her and herself. She experiences it both as an enrichment and a mutilation; the fetus is part of her body, and it is a parasite exploiting her; she possesses it, and she is possessed by it; it encapsulates the whole future, and in carrying it, she feels as vast as the world; but this very richness annihilates her, she has the impression of not being anything else. A new existence is going to manifest itself and justify her own existence, she is proud of it; but she also feels like the plaything of obscure forces, she is tossed about, assaulted. What is unique about the pregnant woman is that at the very moment her body transcends itself, it is grasped as immanent: it withdraws into itself in nausea and discomfort; it no longer exists for itself alone and then becomes bigger than it has ever been. The transcendence of an artisan or a man of action is driven by a subjectivity, but for the future mother the opposition between subject and object disappears; she and this child who swells in her form an ambivalent couple that life submerges; Life is usually just a condition of existence; in gestation it is creation; but it is a strange creation that takes place in contingence and facticity. For some women the joys of pregnancy and nursing are so strong they want to repeat them indefinitely; as soon as the baby is weaned, they feel frustrated. These “breeders” rather than mothers eagerly seek the possibility of alienating their liberty to the benefit of their flesh: their existence appears to them to be tranquilly justified by the passive fertility of their body. If flesh is pure inertia, it cannot embody transcendence, even in a degraded form; it is idleness and ennui, but as soon as it burgeons, it becomes progenitor, source, flower, it goes beyond itself, it is movement toward the future while being a thickened presence at the same time. The separation woman suffered from in the past during her weaning is compensated for; it is submerged again in the current of life, reintegrated into the whole, a link in the endless chain of generations, flesh that exists for and through another flesh. When she feels the child in her heavy belly or when...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing Part 2 of Simone de Beauvoir’s The Second Sex, and I’m joined again by my brilliant reading partner, Fyza Parviz. Hi Fyza! Fyza: Hi, Amy!
Amy:
One thing I reflected on after our last conversation was our different perspectives that we bring to this text. I hope it’s ok that I share this: right before we started the previous episode you texted me “can we start a few minutes late? My baby is sleeping on me.” It was this interesting moment when the lines were blurred between what we were reading and what we were living, and I thought of that quote from 1970’s feminism that says “the personal is political” - the stuff we’re talking about in Beauvoir’s book is important not just because she’s a brilliant theorist but because it describes real people’s lives. I could so remember that magical feeling of having my baby sleeping on me, and I see the huge, consuming love that you have for him, and that’s the same love I have for my children. But there’s this huge difference between us: you’ve mentioned that he joins you for your work meetings and your grad school zoom calls, and I can see you continuing to pursue your own goals, while bringing him with you.
When I had my first baby, I quit my job and completely abandoned all career pursuits, completely ended my participation in academia, in the workforce and economy, basically in the entire adult world outside of family life, and to be honest at the time I was really happy to do it, because I believed that that’s what I was supposed to do. I hadn’t even entertained any other option.
I think it’s useful to remember what a huge range of beliefs and practices there are between different communities and families in the way they view men’s and women’s roles, even women living in the same time period in the same place. My own sister grew up in the same religion as I did, in the same schools, in the family, went to the same college, etc.… and she is married with three kids. Yet she is a labor and delivery nurse, and she has continued to work all this time - in fact she was saying recently that she feels guilty not working. And I said, how is it that we had the exact same upbringing, but you feel guilty not working, and I was so indoctrinated to not work outside the home that I didn’t even consider it, and would have felt guilty if I had worked?? And we finally figured out that even though we had gotten the same messages at church, she had majored in a subject that was geared toward a profession. Even at super-conservative BYU, there were female professors in the nursing program, and many female students whose college education was purposefully training them for careers. So she got job training, and she had other women in her cohort entering the workforce, and she had older female role models who talked about balancing work and family. So all of that experience mitigated the messages that we were both getting in other places. I was an English major, so my classes were all just reading books and writing papers, my professors were almost all men, and no one talked about what jobs we would get after college.
So anyway… I think these conversations are really important to have with each other when we talk about these topics - we can sometimes assume “it’s 2020, all women are on the same page about x.y, or z…” assuming that when we read Beauvoir we’re all coming at it from the same place. But women - and men - are still having vastly different experiences and we need to ask each other questions to understand each other so we don’t talk past each other.
So Fyza, as we get ready to discuss Beauvoir’s observations about women’s lives today, I wonder if you can tell us a little bit more about the way you were raised - what expectations did you have for yourself as a woman? What example was set for you, and did you follow that example or deviate from it? How does that
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. It is hard to overstate the importance of Simone de Beauvoir’s The Second Sex. Written in 1949, this 800-page work chronicles woman’s condition in exhaustive depth and breadth, and is considered the founding work of second-wave feminism. Because this text covers so many topics so thoroughly, we have decided to break it into two parts, and today we will be covering just the first half.
Before we dig into this massive repository of brilliance, I want to introduce my reading partner today, Fyza Parviz. Hi, Fyza!
Fyza: Thank You Amy for organizing this amazing project and inviting me to participate. Hello everyone, I am Fyza Parviz. Like Amy, I am also a graduate student in the MLA department at Stanford. Before embarking on my studies in the Humanities, I worked as a Software Engineer in the valley for a decade. My bachelors is in Electrical Engineering. I am originally from Pakistan and had moved to the United States for College.
Amy: I also like to ask each guest what interested them in this project. Can you tell me a little about that?
Fyza: I have been interested in Beauvoir for about a decade. I have read her autobiographies “Memoirs of a dutiful daughter” and “The Prime of Life.” And also her novel ‘The Mandarins’ and her collection of short stories ‘The Woman Destroyed’. There was a period of my life when I was very much interested in French Existentialism. I used to host a book club in San Francisco on Modern Literature where we read novels by Sarte and Camus, etc .
When my husband and I last travelled to Paris, we made sure to pay a visit to Sarte and Beauvoir’s grave.
I had read ‘Second Sex’ twice before, but everytime I come to this text, at different points in my life, I discover something new. I now read this book after becoming a mother and was fascinated by Beauvoir’s understanding of motherhood and surprised that I had previously overlooked this aspect of her philosophy. And I would love to discuss this in detail with you today Amy.
Amy: [Respond to Fyza, then introduce Beauvoir’s bio]
Simone de Beauvoir was born in Paris, France, on January 9, 1908. Her mother was a devout Catholic, and young Simone was a fervent believer as a child and even considered becoming a nun. She eventually lost her faith during her teenage years. Beauvoir was intellectually precocious, fueled by her father's encouragement; he reportedly would boast, "Simone thinks like a man!" The family had lost much of its fortune after World War I, and because she could no longer rely on her https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry (dowry) to find a good match in marriage, she took the opportunity of an excellent education to prepare to earn a living for herself. She attended a prestigious Catholic school, and after passing baccalaureate exams in mathematics and philosophy in 1925, she studied mathematics at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_Catholique_de_Paris (Institut Catholique de Paris) and literature/languages at the https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Institut_Sainte-Marie&action=edit&redlink=1 (Institut Sainte-Marie). She then studied philosophy at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Paris (Sorbonne). Next, she sat in on courses at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Normale_Sup%C3%A9rieure (École Normale Supérieure) in preparation for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agr%C3%A9gation (agrégation) in philosophy, a highly competitive postgraduate examination which serves as a national ranking of students. It was while studying for this exam that she met https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Sartre (Jean-Paul Sartre). About Sartre and Beauvoir, NYT writer Judith Thurman wrote in 2010: They met in 1929, as university students … cramming, as a team, for France’s most brutal and competitive postgraduate examination, the...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be covering two speeches by Eleanor Roosevelt that were delivered to the United Nations in the aftermath of World War 2. First, an Open Letter to the Women of the World, and second, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Roosevelt referred to the declaration in particular as being a new “Magna Carta” for humanity, and it truly was a revolutionary document that continues to be a reference point for international human rights. But before we dive into these remarkable texts, I want to introduce my reading partner for today, Lucy Allebest. Hi, Lucy, thanks for being here! Lucy: Hi! Thanks for having me! Amy: Lucy is my second daughter. A fun fact about my three daughters is that they all have different hair and eye colors. We call them our “neopolitan pack” because we have a chocolate, a strawberry, and a vanilla, and Lucy is our strawberry, with red hair and green eyes. She’s also about 5 inches taller than I am. So Lucy, can you tell us a little more about yourself? Lucy: Of course! I am currently a senior in high school, which means much of my time is spent doing school work and college applications. But in my free time I enjoy writing, doing theatre, especially Shakespeare, and learning about all things History. I’m also an excellent organizer, and I’ve been told I’m good at doing accents from all over the British Isles, but no I will not demonstrate. Amy: And then I like to ask my reading partners what Breaking Down Patriarchy means to them, or why they wanted to be a part of this project. Lucy: I was so excited to be a part of this project not only because I’m so proud of my mom for all of the work that she has put in, but also because I feel like it is my responsibility as a young woman to educate myself on what’s essentially my history. As someone who loves history and wants to study it further in college, I think it is crucial that I learn the stories of half of the human population. I honestly feel let down by how little my public education has taught me about women’s history, and I can’t imagine it’s going to get dramatically better even in college. It seems like people don’t study women’s history unless they major in Women’s studies. So in order to fill in that huge gap in my knowledge of history and do what I can to resist the patriarchy which has always frustrated me, I was eager to take these first steps on my journey towards enlightenment and empowerment. Amy: Yes it’s true - I had you show me your AP US History textbook that one time to see how many women were in there, and it’s better than when I was in HS, but still for the most part they’re just sidelined in those special blue-highlighted paragraphs. Lucy: Yeah, they’re like “fun facts!” I got the sense that my teacher was adding more material to the curriculum that wasn’t in the book. Which I was really grateful for, but at the same time when she would add extra stuff about women, I kept thinking, “why isn’t this in the text book?” Amy: Well I should thank your teacher then, because you ended up knowing a ton more than I had ever learned about History in general, and about women’s history specifically. In fact that’s why I asked you to do this episode on the UN declarations and Eleanor Roosevelt - because one day you were talking about it and teaching me all kinds of things I had never heard before. So before we get into the text, can you tell us about the author and the historical context that led to Eleanor Roosevelt writing these speeches? Lucy: Yes! Anna Eleanor Roosevelt was born on October 11, 1884. Sadly, both of her parents and one of her brothers died when she was young. At 15, she attended school in London, then returned to the U.S., and when she was 21 years old she married her fifth cousin once removed, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, in 1905. The Roosevelts' marriage was...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s text is called Killing the Angel in the House, and it’s a collection of lectures and essays written by Virgina Woolf between 1905 and 1941. That phrase, Killing the Angel in the House, and what it represents, has been really, really important in my life so I can’t wait to share it and discuss it with my reading partner today, Rachelle Burnside. Hi, Rachelle! Rachelle: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Rachelle Burnside is a friend of mine from the Stanford Master’s of Liberal Arts program. We have been dear friends all the way through our program, as we not only did our foundations courses together, but then we also kept choosing the same electives! We studied William Blake, Dante and the Sacred Feminine, and very memorably, Rachelle and I had some life-altering (for me) conversations during our class on International Womens’ Health and Human Rights. Rachelle is incredibly well-read and well-spoken, and I’ve learned so much from you through the years, Rachelle, I’m thrilled that you’re here with us today!
Rachelle: Thank you, Amy. I’m excited to be here to talk about these issues. I love what you’re doing with this podcast.
Amy: So can I have you start by introducing yourself? Tell us a little about you, where you’re from.
Rachelle: So, I was born and raised in California, and I’ve spent my entire life here, with the exception of a year-long teacher exchange where I taught religion, philosophy, and ethics at a Catholic school in London. That was an interesting experience, on many levels, not the least of which because, like you, I was raised in a Mormon family, although I left the church when I was 18. I came from this really niche Protestant background and a culture where we don’t teach religion in public school and then suddenly found myself teaching not just Catholic theology, but religious practice for Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism, etc., because that’s part of the required curriculum in England. I found it refreshing, actually, because people were much less dogmatic and were able to have really nuanced, thoughtful conversations around faith and theology in ways that we are unable to have in the U.S. My mother is adopted, and her adopted parents both have ancestors that were part of the original group of settlers that migrated to Utah with Brigham Young. Her birth mother, who was also Mormon, has family roots in Georgia and Virginia from the original Scotch-Irish settlers. We don’t know anything about my mom’s birth father except that according to her 23andMe results he must have had English, French or German, and Scandinavian ancestry. My father is from Battle Creek, Michigan. His maternal grandfather came from Glasgow, Scotland to Canada an indentured servant after he was orphaned at 14. His maternal great-grandmother was from Baden-Wertemberg, Germany. The rest of the family is all English, Irish, and Welsh, with the exception of my dad’s father, who we found out through DNA testing was actually illegitimate and biracial, which no one in the family knew-- even my grandfather. So I have tiny 5% of my DNA from West Africa, specifically Nigeria, Cameroon, and the Ivory Coast. Through genealogical research and DNA, we’ve been able to figure out who my grandfather’s paternal family was, and my 2x great grandfather was a man named Franklin Johnson, born in 1850 into slavery in what is now West Virginia, and died in 1945 in Michigan. My father converted to Mormonism when he was in his teens, and my parents met when he was on his mission. I grew up in Sacramento, in an all-white community until I was 13. I then moved to East San Jose when my mom remarried. My step-father was Chinese-American, and my middle school was a majority-minority school. It was a great education in learning that not everyone has the same life experiences as you do. I attended Santa Clara University where I graduated with BAs in English and History....
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing A Room of One’s Own, published in 1929, by Virginia Woolf. This book has a very different tone than the other books we’ve read so far - whereas other texts have undertaken the work of illuminating lost history, or calling societies to action, or cutting through philosophical error with the sharp knife of reason, Virginia Woolf’s work is like talking with a friend or hearing the internal dialogue in your own head. This book is very much in the moment of 1929 England, but it’s also timeless in her stream-of-consciousness observations about what it feels like to be a thinking woman. I found A Room of One’s Own to be absolutely essential reading - I thought it was informative and kind of infuriating, but also validating and healing. And I can’t wait to discuss it with my reading partner today, Susannah Furr. Hi, Susannah! Susannah: Hi, Amy! Amy: I am so so excited to have you here, Susannah. Susannah and I met in 2005 when my husband was completing his MBA and her husband was completing his PhD in Technology Strategy at Stanford. Our families were living in student housing, and Susannah had just had her fourth baby and I was pregnant with my third, in the tiniest little student apartments. But we shared these huge, glorious courtyards with other student families from all over the world, and our kids would ride their bikes and play imaginative games in the sandbox and just basically run feral from sunup to sundown. Susannah and I became dear friends in the courtyard, and also on morning runs around campus, where we would talk and talk about every subject under the sun. But we haven’t lived in the same country for a long time and I’ve really missed you, so I’m super excited to have this time with you today. Could you start off by telling us about yourself? Where you’re from, what you love, and just some things that make you you? Sus: I share the fond memories, Amy! It was a really unique time and we made the most of it--I loved our conversations and am looking forward to this one.
I was born in 1973 in LA while my dad was in med school--the 4th of what would end up to be a family of 8 kids. At age 2 my family moved to a small town in SW Washington where I lived until my family moved to Provo, Utah when I was a junior in high school. I went to BYU where I met my husband, Nathan, during freshman year in a writing class and we joined a writing project together about zombies. We both served LDS missions (his in Ontario and Quebec and mine in Netherlands and Flemish-speaking Belgium) and then got married in October 1996 just three months after getting home. I was really prepared to stay at home with kids and love it--I think I wanted five. My mom had been such a cozy loving force in my and my siblings’ lives and made it look so easy... but ultimately stay-at-home motherhood tortured me from the beginning for many reasons we can get into later. My Mom studied English Literature at university and is a great writer... which is something I’m grateful for because it encouraged my own love of the humanities which I studied as an undergrad. And then again as a masters student in Art History--a degree I started after about a five year break from university during which time I had my first two kids and realized I really wasn’t cut out for being at home all day with kids while living in Boston where Nathan worked two years as a management consultant….) So we had moved back to Provo so that Nathan could start an MBA--a good but cheap one--before going on to pursue a PhD in Business. And I was able to last minute join the program I had applied to five years earlier but never started. It was an exhilarating time in my life as I literally squeezed my reading, writing and studying for exams into tiny little slots of time in between kids naps and preschool shifts. We also had our third baby during that
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Did you know that it used to be illegal for married couples to use birth control? Did you know that the Supreme Court only overturned states’ laws prohibiting birth control 55 years ago? I did not know that until I did some research in preparation for today’s texts. We will be discussing Margaret Sanger’s 1918 essay “The Morality of Birth Control” and her 1934 essay “The Case for Birth Control.” I want to begin by emphasizing that this project highlights essential texts that describe the construct of patriarchy and the critiques that have challenged it throughout history. During each episode we include a biography of the author of the text we’re discussing, but that is only to give background and context to the important piece of writing that the person produced. There are other podcasts out there whose purpose is to tell the stories of amazing women - “History Chicks,” “Encyclopedia Womannica,” and “What’s Her Name” are all excellent podcasts that are biography-centric. Our project here at “Breaking Down Patriarchy” is about important documents on a historical timeline, and in some ways the author of a certain text might not necessarily be exemplary. I say this because the author of this week’s texts is a controversial figure. Margaret Sanger was an American birth control activist, sex educator, writer, and nurse working in the WWI era and 1920’s. She popularized the term "birth control", opened the first birth control clinic in the United States, and established organizations that evolved into the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Her essays, “Morality and Birth Control” and “The Case for Birth Control” were critically important in challenging patriarchal norms, and they are found on almost every Women’s History reading list. But Sanger was also involved in the eugenics movement, and rubbed shoulders with some very racist people. Some have accused Sanger herself of racist views, and some organizations have disavowed her. We at Breaking Down Patriarchy disavow and condemn racism in every form. Full stop. Today, as in every episode, we will simply be examining a text and its significance on our historical timeline as we strive to understand patriarchy and its critiques.
But before we continue the discussion, I want to introduce my reading partner, Courtney McPhie! Hi, Courtney, and welcome back to Breaking Down Patriarchy!
Courtney: Hi, Amy! Amy: Courtney is not afraid of complicated narratives - you were my reading partner when we discussed the Seneca Falls Convention and we talked about the racist invectives of Elizabeth Cady Stanton. You tackle texts with such intelligence and compassion and you don’t shy away from a challenge.
Courtney Intro: If you didn’t hear our episode on Seneca Falls, Courtney is a high school English teacher outside DC, where she fights for equity and representation in the classroom. Another highlight about Courtney is she loves podcasts! Her favorite is NPR’s Code Switch. She has loved participating in the podcast because her undergrad offerings of women’s studies courses was extremely limited, so she feels like she is getting the solid education in feminist lit she always wanted.
Me too, Courtney! That’s the goal - to finally understand how things evolved for women the way they did. And this topic was yet another one that I had absolutely no knowledge of. If you had asked me when women were first allowed to use birth control (and just to point out - it was a group of men deciding whether women should or shouldn’t be allowed to use birth control - that’s why this is a patriarchal issue), I wouldn’t have known. My point of reference recently has been “Call the Midwife,” which I highly recommend watching.
So anyway… let’s learn a bit about the author of “Morality and Birth Control,” and “The Case for Birth Control,” Margaret Sanger. Can you introduce her to us, Courtney?
Allebest: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s text is the speech, “The Fundamental Principle of a Republic” by Anna Howard Shaw, given in New York in 1915. Shaw argues that the fundamental principle of a republic is that its citizens get to participate in civic life, and that in denying women the right to vote, America falls short of its democratic values. As listeners might recall from our episode on the Seneca Falls Convention, the women’s suffrage movement had officially begun in 1848, which means that at the point that this speech was given, women had been fighting for the right to vote for 67 years!! Can you imagine how frustrating?? Why was it taking so long? What arguments were being made against women’s suffrage, that were convincing American men and American women that women should not have the right to vote? Anna Howard Shaw’s oration addresses exactly those anti-suffrage arguments. This speech is included on many lists of the 50 best speeches of the entire 20th Century, and sure enough when I read it I was blown away… not only by its power, but also by its humor! Anna Howard Shaw was funny! But before we get to the speech, I want to introduce my reading partner, Amy Osmond Cook. Amy and I were neighbors and running buddies several years ago in Southern California, and we crammed years’ worth of deep discussion into the year that we lived in the same neighborhood. Also, fun fact: as you may have guessed from her maiden name, Amy is the niece of Donny and Marie Osmond. She’s way too humble to name-drop like that, so I’m going to do it for her. :) And we discovered after meeting that we know tons of the same people, including discovering after we had been friends for months, that my cousin is married to her sister! Amy, I absolutely adored you from the first moment I met you and I am so grateful that you agreed to do this project with me! Thanks so much for being here. Cook: Amy, the feeling is just so mutual. Allebest: So before we start, could you tell us a little about yourself? Where you grew up and what made you the person you are today.
Cook: Bio Ancestors from Born and raised in Family of origin Religion Education: undergrad PhD dissertation Career Current family Hobbies/favorite things
Allebest: Thanks so much! And the other question I like to ask is what interested you in Breaking Down Patriarchy.
Cook: Interest in the project
Allebest: Thanks, Amy. Ok, so in preparation for discussing this text, we need to set the stage a bit by explaining the women’s suffrage movement and Anna Howard Shaw.
Allebest and Cook take turns:
Allebest: As a way of orienting us, here are a few highlights from a Women’s Suffrage Timeline, as found on the website of The National Women’s History Museum. We’ll take turns reading some important dates just so we have an understanding of what happened when. 1850 Worcester, Massachusetts, is the site of the first National Women's Rights Convention. Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison, Lucy Stone and Sojourner Truth are in attendance. A strong alliance is formed between the Women’s Rights Movement and the Abolitionist Movement (and actually, as we learned in other episodes, those two movements were allied from the very beginning - the women’s movement grew directly out of the Abolition movement) 1861-1865 During the Civil War, efforts for the suffrage movement come to a halt. Women put their energies toward the war effort. 1866 Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony form the American Equal Rights Association, an organization dedicated to the goal of suffrage for all, regardless of gender or race. 1868 Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Parker Pillsbury publish the first edition of The Revolution. This periodical carries the motto “Men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights and nothing less!” Senator S.C. Pomeroy of Kansas introduces
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Just this past week I received an email from a friend who has been listening to the podcast, and she said that these essential texts have been helping her make sense of things that she hasn’t been able to make sense of, and helping her feel validated and empowered… so of course I was so thrilled and gratified, because that’s the effect these books have had on me too, and that’s why I’m doing this project. In her email she said “ I feel like I’ve woken from a deep sleep and have been starving for this knowledge.” Today we will be reading a passage from a book where the main character literally and metaphorically wakes up from a deep sleep, and she’s literally and metaphorically starving. So I think a lot of our listeners will relate to this text! It’s “The Awakening,” by Kate Chopin, published in 1899. The setting is similar to the one in “The Yellow Wallpaper” last week - it’s the United States in the late nineteenth century - but Kate Chopin has a unique perspective as a Southern writer, and her story caused a huge scandal when it was published. It talks about adultery and women’s sexuality, so it flagrantly challenges the social norms of the day. Also the book is considered hugely important because it represents the rich inner world of a woman’s thinking and it carved new paths for authors who came after her. But before I get ahead of myself, I want to introduce my reading partner today, Shauna Rensch. Hi, Shauna! Shauna: Hi, Amy! Amy: Shauna and I met through our husbands - my husband Erik and Shauna’s husband Danny work together at chess.com, and they are like brothers. And then in recent years, Shauna, you and I have gotten to hang out, and we can bond about how ridiculous our husbands are when they’re together. And I also think you are so smart and well-spoken, always weighing in on any topic with really informed insights. I’m so excited to have you join me for this discussion - thank you so much!!!
Shauna: Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be part of this project with you. I’ve really learned a lot from listening to the other episodes. Especially because I felt like it was a lot of things that I kind of knew but definitely didn’t have the real facts to back it up or hadn’t heard the real stories about why certain things were true.
Amy: Before we talk about Kate Chopin and “The Awakening,” can you tell us about yourself?
Shauna: Sure. I was born in the suburbs of Chicago and lived there until the end of high school. I was raised by a single mom after my parents divorced when I was 7. This was very impactful as I saw her reinvent her life post divorce. She started her own graphic design company which made it possible for her to work from home while raising me and my three younger siblings. We all moved in with my grandparents after the divorce and lived close to them until my grandma passed away when I was 17. They helped raise me and were a very big part of my life. My grandma was a school teacher which I think is part of the reason I was drawn to teaching.
My family moved to Arizona right after I graduated high school. I started dating my husband when I was 19 and was at ASU trying to decide what I wanted to do. I jumped from wanting to be a naturopathic doctor to spanish translator and had finally settled into teaching when I got married and had my first son at 22. Since I was two years through college and couldn’t figure out how to do student teaching while wanting to stay home with him, I decided to take a break. My husband taught chess lessons and we ran tournaments on the weekends. When I was pregnant with my second I decided to finish my bachelors and picked a humanities degree so I could complete it online. I graduated when he was 9 months old. It was nowhere near where I started but was great for me because it gave me a lot of appreciation for history and writing that I didn’t have previously. Then I
Outline Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we will be discussing the first, and possibly the only, work of fiction on our list of essential texts. It’s a short story called “The Yellow Wallpaper,” by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, and if you haven’t read it, or if you haven’t read it in awhile, then I encourage you to press pause on this podcast, go read it, and then come back. Or even easier, you can go listen to it! It’s about 40 minutes long, and you can find it on Audible, or for free on Librivox or YouTube. It was written in 1892 so it’s in the public domain now, which means it’s free, and it’s a really, really good story, so go read or listen and then come back. Ok, so welcome back! Today we are going to be discussing Charlotte Perkins Gilman’s “The Yellow Wallpaper,” but first I want to introduce my reading partner, Shannon Johnson. Hi, Shannon!
Shannon: Hi, Amy!
Amy: I will always remember the moment that you and I met, Shannon - it was at the welcome dinner for our master’s program at Stanford, and I was feeling so nervous that I would be the only mom there, and I wouldn’t have anything in common with anyone… and I stood up and introduced myself and mentioned that I had four kids, and you piped up from across the room and said “I have four kids too, and I think we went to the same college, so we need to talk afterward.” And we did, and it turns out we have tons in common and speak the same language and have been fast friends ever since. But can you tell us some more about yourself - where you come from, etc?
Shannon bio I’m descended on both sides from white Europeans who came to the U.S. in the 1800s. My middle name, Olena, actually comes from my great-great-great grandmother who emigrated from Norway. She and her husband and several children (one of whom worked as a boot boy in Brigham Young’s house) left the Mormon church a few years after settling in Utah, probably because of polygamy.
I grew up mostly in Utah and went to BYU, where I met my husband online before that was a thing. I’ve taught conversational English in Japan and Cairo, and now I work in admin at Stanford. I am currently procrastinating writing my master’s thesis on the Mormon church’s history of racial restrictions and revelations and how the memorialization of these events serves the present moment.
I like to view Mormon history as a case study in patriarchal American culture. I also like hiking, yoga, British tv, and trashy romance novels. I live in Santa Clara, California with my four daughters, aged 10-20, and my patient husband.
Amy: Shannon and I were both English majors, and when we were talking about how to present the book, of course we discussed which critical approach we wanted to assume as we introduced the text. So Shannon, why don’t you start us off.
Shannon: Jump into the book - let’s read the story as a story I re-listened again this week, and I was struck by how appropriate it is for Halloween (since we’re lucky enough to be recording on October 30th). It’s a deceptively simple tale that functions so well as both thrilling short story and parable on the dangers and consequences of unchecked patriarchy. It employs the tropes common to Gothic Romance (think the Bronte sisters, Ann Radcliffe, Daphne Du Maurier, Mary Shelley), elements of atmospheric sensory description, a creeping, mounting sense of disquiet, even the stock characters of naive, Mary-Sue protagonists, unsympathetic housekeepers, and insensitive/hyper-rational love interests/husbands.
Last warning to those who don’t want spoilers, I’m going to go over the plot briefly, including the ending. So really, go listen or read first.
A young woman is brought to a grand summer rental house by her physician husband. She has mixed feelings about the house, and even mentions how “romantic” it would be if the house were haunted in the second paragraph. She has been unwell,...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. This week we are inserting an episode out of chronological order. That’s a first for us on the podcast. Our essential text this week is The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, which was written in the first century of the Common Era, meaning after Jesus Christ, and so it belongs earlier on our reading list right after our discussion of the Virgin Mary. After I recorded that episode on the Virgin Mary and Early Christianity, I realized that we had missed some important parts of the historical story and I heard back from some readers who—or some listeners, rather—that said, “well Amy you said that there isn’t really a book of Mary, so we didn’t know what Mary thought or said, but what about the Gospel of Mary Magdalene?” And so, that was such an important piece that I had left out, and so I was thinking about how to incorporate that and thought maybe I would do an addendum to that episode, but when I found the most incredible reading partner to read this text with me, I knew we had to do it right now even though it’s out of order, and we’ll just stick it in. So next week we’ll resume with the nineteenth century texts, where we were. But for today we’re gonna get our heads back into the various accounts of what happened during the life of Jesus Christ, and we’ll consider how it would feel to have a record that we knew was written by, or about, a woman. And we’re also going to talk about who determined which accounts made it into the Bible that people read today, and here’s a hint: it was not women making those decisions. Surprise, surprise. So, with all that as our introduction to guide us on that journey today, I am just thrilled to welcome the scholar, musician, composer, and poet and Renaissance woman Dr. Kayleen Asbo. Welcome, Kayleen. Kayleen: Oh thank you Amy, it’s such a pleasure to be with you on this, such an important topic.
Amy: I’m so excited. I remember, Kayleen, the first time I met you was at Stanford. I hadn’t started my Master’s program yet, I was taking that Continuing Studies course from Professor Bruce Elliott, whom I adore, and you gave a lecture on Classical music in the Catholic tradition as compared to the Protestant tradition, and I was just so blown away by you that I signed up for your email list. And I do not sign up for email lists—I do not like getting things in my inbox. But I read it every week! I feel like it’s the most nourishing thing I read during my week, and I’ve watched your lectures, I attended a retreat with my daughters that we were just talking about, and I’m just so grateful for your work. And, I wonder if you could just start us out today by telling us a little bit about yourself: personally, where you’re from, and your education and your passions, and just kind of your perspective that you bring to the text.
Kayleen: Oh, sure. You know, I actually think that the place I have to begin is actually before I was born, because my parents met each other as students in a class on comparative religion. And, they were the only two non-Mormons at the University of Utah in this particular class, and my father was debating on one side of issues. He was a very eclectic spiritual seeker, I think that’s a generous way to put it, everything from Native American shamanism to different world cultures. My mother was a very—at the time, a very sort of proper Presbyterian. And so I like to say they came from opposite sides, but they were both on their own spiritual quest, and ultimately, neither one of them found the kind of nourishment that they were hungry for within any kind of institutional religion. And they divorced by the time I was two, but I like to think that in the mythic story of my life, a lot of what my life has been dedicated to is trying to find the bridge—the tent that’s large enough, that could nourish enough people that no matter where you come from, you could find something that would speak and nourish your...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are going to be reading our first and possible only male author in this series, John Stuart Mill. His book, The Subjection of Women, written in 1869, is important to me personally because it’s the first philosophical critique of patriarchy that I ever read. About six years ago I was searching for books on the history of Patriarchy - I had never read any - and this book “The Subjection of Women” popped up as a suggestion. I thought the title looked intriguing so I bought it and read it. It is not an exaggeration to say that it was life-changing for me - I saw so many of my own private thoughts and feelings represented as legitimate cultural and political issues, and I couldn’t believe that this analysis had been written a century and a half earlier. My copy is marked up and dog-eared, and I’m really excited to discuss it with my reading partner today, Franceskay Allebes.
Hi, Franceskay!
Franceskay: Hi, Amy!
Amy:
Franceskay and I are dear friends and are also in the same family! She is my husband’s aunt, and she has always been one of those cool, hip young aunts who is more like an older sister than an aunt. And I remember from the time I met you when Erik and I were engaged, you were so welcoming and warm to me… and then your children have been such an important part of my children’s lives. And as a bonus it turns out that we’ve discovered over the years that we are quite like-minded and kind of kindred spirits. So thank you so much for being here today. And so our listeners can get to know you a bit more, I’m going to share a brief bio that you wrote.
Franceskay is the youngest of 4 children. First generation American, she was born to Frans and Margaretha Allebes who immigrated to the United States from the Netherlands shortly following WW2 and after joining the LDS Church (or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). With their 3-year-old son Edward in tow (if you want you can add that this is your father in law😊) they decided to start a new life in the great American West starting in Salt Lake City then on to Wyoming and then to California. Franceskay was born in Northern California in a typical suburban community climbing trees, catching frogs, and popping wheelies on her Schwinn bike, anything her brother Brigham was doing cuz doing boy stuff was way more fun. Her first foothold as a feminist probably started there - questioning adults why girls couldn’t do the same fun things as boys, wearing pants to elementary school and wondering why scientists, presidents and famous artists were mostly men. Fast forward…with a degree from BYU she moved to Los Angeles in the mid 80’s and embraced the big city life, loving this treasure trove of arts, education and enrichment as well as a diverse ocean of people and ideas. She worked at UCLA as a special events planner for several years and after walking the bowels and bones of the university she walked with her diploma and a master’s in education and became a full-fledged Bruin. At the same time, she met her wonderful husband, Orell and they started their exciting lives together. Her second career, as a teacher, started in her early 30s and a move back to Orange County, where she and Orell started their family. It was a soft landing, with jobs, home prices within reach and the help of an Oma and Opa (Dutch for grandma and grandpa) to help raise their kids. They have 3 amazingly creative and smart children. Soren who just graduated and now working as a Mechanical Engineer, Dane who should be graduating in a year in Applied Design and Holland who is a super star senior. After a short retirement Franceskay went back to teach art at elementary schools and that became a springboard to what she does now, using art as therapy in rehab treatment centers for those dealing with addiction and mental health issues. She enjoys hiking, yoga,...
Amy Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we’re going to discuss an essential text from the middle of the 19th Century, the transcript of a speech delivered at a Women’s Rights Convention in Akron, Ohio in 1851. The speech is entitled “Ain’t I A Woman,” and it was delivered by the great Abolitionist and Women’s Rights activist, Sojourner Truth. But before we dive into the speech, I’d like to introduce my reading partner for this episode, Rayna Clay MacKay. Hi, Rayna!
Rayna Hi, Amy!
Amy Rayna is a wife, mom, and Obstetric Anesthesiologist. She married a dreamy Scotsman for much more than his accent and gained two fantastic bonus kids as a result. They added three more kiddos to the mix, including identical twin boys, and A daughter. They also have the best Cavoodle in the world named Hamish! She’s a traveler by nature and has lived in over a dozen cities (thanks to medical training) across the United States. She moved from Massachusetts to Tampa Bay almost three years ago and loves the indoor-outdoor lifestyle of Florida. It's also the midway point between the California family and her husband's family in the UK. She grew up in California and Utah, which shaped her outlook on life in general. As the daughter of a single AA mother in UT, she constantly felt a sense of being other. This permeated her HS, college, and medical school (UofU) experience. While she cherishes the relationships she developed in Utah, the culture didn't mesh, and she finds that the California culture of acceptance (of all genders, religions, people, sexuality, etc.) was more aligned with her values. Speaking of values, she values her family above all, but also loves pretty things! That includes her obsession with home renovation and decor, kids' birthday parties, and cooking beautiful, delicious food. They try to indulge their love of travel to pretty places as often as possible. She thinks this hails back to her taking a certain scripture to heart as a kiddo, "if there is anything [lovely], of good report, or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." Her other core value is justice and equality. She is a firm believer that differences are what make us great, and they should be applauded and supported. As she’s gotten older and wiser, She’s found her voice becoming louder championing for the injustices in the medical system, and society as a whole. Her hope is that the future is more glorious with a rainbow of differing people and opinions that are equally acknowledged. On any given day (outside of the hospital) you will find her hanging with the family, playing the NYT crossword or flipping through HGTV magazine while watching a British crime drama or The Crown. I'm happiest with my core people, and is delighted I get to throw it back to Freshman year with you!
Amy I also like to ask each guest on the podcast what attracted them to the Breaking Down Patriarchy project. Can you talk a little about that?
Rayna
Amy Thank you so much for being here, Rayna! So before we dig into this text, let’s set the stage by talking a bit about Sojourner Truth, and the context in which she lived. Rayna, maybe you can take the first half of her story and I’ll take the second half.
Biography of Sojourner Truth
Rayna Isabella Baumfree, known as “Belle,” was one of the 10 or 12 children born to James and Elizabeth Baumfree. A man named Charles Hardenbergh bought James and Elizabeth Baumfree from slave traders and kept their family at his estate in a big hilly area called by the Dutch name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swartekill,_New_York (Swartekill), in the town of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esopus,_New_York (Esopus, New York), 95 miles north of New York City. Charles Hardenbergh inherited his father's estate and continued to enslave people as a part of that estate's property. When Charles Hardenbergh died in 1806,...
Intro - Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy, I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are going to discuss some iconic texts in Women’s History. The 1848 Seneca Falls Convention was the first Women’s Rights convention in American history, and the speeches delivered there have been touchstones for Women’s Rights movements all over the world, ever since. The convention is considered the kick-off of the women’s suffrage movement in the United States, even though it would be 72 years before the 19th Amendment was passed in 1920, which guaranteed women the right to vote, and it would be 117 more years before the Voting Rights Act was passed, in 1965, which protected Black men and women’s right to vote. This was a slow and painful process, and amidst some of the inspiring language of the Seneca Falls convention speeches you can already see some big problems that would keep thwarting the effort toward voting justice for all Americans. But we’ll get to that later.
Frst, I’m going to introduce my reading partner, Courtney McPhie. Hi, Courtney!
Courtney: Hi, Amy!
Amy:
If you follow Courtney McPhie’s lineage, you will find yourself in Scotland, where a fierce and stubborn streak planted early roots for a family tree. Growing up in Colorado, Courtney experienced a typical awakening to social justice in high school, but took until college to call herself a feminist. A voracious reader and podcast-listener, Courtney lives in Northern Virginia, in the DC Metro area. She completed her graduate studies at George Mason University and holds a masters degree in education, which she uses as a high school English teacher in Fairfax County, one of the largest districts in the country. She works largely with English Language Learners, mostly asylum-seekers who have come from Central America in the last three years. Courtney lives with her husband and three cute kids in a Colonial house on a hill.
What interests Courtney in the project The chance to briefly own a microphone (haha)
Amy: Ok, let’s dive in! First, let’s talk about the organizers and speakers at the convention - Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Courtney, can you start by telling us about Lucretia Mott?
Courtney:
Born January 3, 1793, Lucretia Coffin was raised in a Quaker family in Boston. She was sent to a Quaker school, where she became even more adamant in her belief that all are born equal. When she finished school she stayed on as a teacher, then became a Quaker preacher where she became a staunch abolitionist and women’s rights activist. By 1811, Mott was living in Philadelphia where she married her father’s business partner, James Mott. Mott was passionate about her work as an abolitionist, something that was supported by her husband. She started the Philadelphia Femail Anti-Slavery Society in 1833 after working with William Lloyd Garrison, an abolitionist and women’s rights activist who encouraged women to be involved in the movements. He encouraged Mott and all women to write and speak out about these issues, which caused Mott to be ridiculed for her acting in ways that were unbecoming of women. However, she did not let this stop her. Mott soon became frustrated that, as a woman, she was not allowed to participate in many of the abolitionist groups and conventions. It was at this time she met Elizabeth Cady Stanton, with their respective husbands, at the World Anti-Slavery Convention in London, England. The two women became allies when the male delegates attending the convention voted that women should be denied participation in the proceedings, even if they, like Mott, had been nominated to serve as official delegates of their respective abolitionist societies. After considerable debate, the women were required to sit in a roped-off section hidden from the view of the men in attendance. They were soon joined by the prominent abolitionist,...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Have you ever heard this quote? “I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” If you’ve heard this quote before you might attribute it to the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And you would be right! She did say that a lot! But what you might not know is that Justice Ginsburg was in fact quoting 19th Century Abolitionist and Women’s Rights Advocate, Sarah Grimke. Today we will be reading the document that contains that quote: a series of letters from Sarah Grimke to fellow Abolitionist Mary S. Parker, in 1838. These letters were later published under the title Letters on the Equality of the Sexes and the Condition of Woman, and this book is known as the first sustained argument for equal rights written by a woman in the United States. Grimke has become a hero of mine during the past several years, and this particular text may be especially inspiring to listeners who are committed to holding onto their faith despite their struggles with patriarchal practices. I know some of our episodes so far might have been hard for religious listeners to metabolize - they have been hard for me! Grimke was a devoted Christian throughout her life, so this episode may give Christian women and men some encouraging new ways of viewing scripture. (and it will still be fascinating for non-religious listeners as well!) But before we start, I want to welcome my reading partner, Rebecca Archibald. Hi, Becca! Becca: Hi, Amy! Amy: Becca and I met in 2005 when our husbands were working on their MBAs at Stanford at the same time. We were neighbors on campus and we both had two little girls at the time, and we had similar interests, and as soon as I met you, Becca, I knew you were going to be an important person in my life with important things to teach me. And that was true - there are many nuggets of wisdom that I use in my life as a mother and as a thinker that will come to my mind and I’ll think “Becca taught me that.” I’m so grateful we’ve stayed in touch over the course of many years and many moves to various places, and so thankful that you’re joining me today to talk about this book!
Becca: Happy to be here, etc…. :)
Amy: So I always ask my reading partners to introduce themselves so listeners can get an idea of background and the perspective that each guest will bring to the discussion. Can you tell us a little about yourself?
Becca: I grew up in Utah, the oldest girl of 6 kids. Both my parents kind of made me feel like I could do anything, including move to Boston and go to Harvard for graduate school. I started dating my husband just after I’d been accepted. I didn’t know if I should go or stay in Utah where he was---my dad said go, and my mom said stay. I did go, and my husband came to Boston too. Since, we’ve been lucky to live in many places around the country--New York, Connecticut, Cleveland, Northern Ca and now San Diego. In some of these places I’ve taught high school English, and in all of these places I’ve read. You’d think both experiences would come in handy being at home with 5 kids in online school but let’s just say--we all miss real school. I have loved the extra time for family adventures.
Amy: And then the other thing I’d like you to tell listeners is what interested you in this project.
Becca: What interested me was a scheduled conversation with Amy. When we both lived in Northern California, we’d run together in the beautiful wooded hills before anyone else was awake and discuss potty training, racial injustice, recipes--basically solve the problems of the world as we ran. I miss that! Of course this is such a compelling topic as well. I read Sue Monk Kidd’s The Invention of Wings a few years ago which is a historical novel about Sarah and Angelina Grimke. The minute I finished...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s text is an essay entitled “On the Equality of the Sexes,” by Judith Sargent Murray. This essay actually predates Mary Wollstonecraft’s Vindication of the Rights of Woman by a year - it was published in 1791 - but we are covering it now because Wollstonecraft continued the tradition of European writers, and with Judith Sargent Murray we’ve crossed the pond and carried the historical thread to the United States. Murray was a brilliant thinker and writer, and I think her contributions to American thought should be taught in our schools alongside Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin! But before we start our discussion of her work, I want to introduce my reading partner, Jennie Austin Preece. Hi, Jennie! Jennie: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Jennie and I met during a semester in Jerusalem during our Sophomore year in college, and along with Sherrie Nelson Crawford, who did the episodes on The Creation of Patriarchy, we formed a writing group a la Dead Poets Society where we would sneak around at night and make blanket forts and read our poetry to each other. We kept that writing group going after we got back from Jerusalem, and significantly (especially now, looking back in retrospect), you kept that going after we were all married and I had two little kids at home. That was the only thing that kept me writing during those years. (Comments on Jennie)
Could you tell us a bit about yourself, Jennie?
Jennie: Well, first of all, I hope that when I grow up I can be like Amy McPhie Allebest some day! What a gift to be a part of this project. And how fun to hear Sherrie’s conversation with you. And I have to say our sunrise poetry meeting is probably one of my favorite memories of Jerusalem! Hugging trees and basking in poetic alliteration! Good stuff!
So my story. I am the youngest of four children, born to a practicing Mormon family in the great potato state of Idaho. I grew up surrounded by farmland, tractors, and trucks, but my parents supplemented our Idaho surroundings with travel, good books and conversation, a plethora of foreign exchange students and diverse religious and volunteer experiences. I had parents who were deliberate in opening our eyes to the world.
Like many good Mormons, I made my way to Brigham Young University for my undergraduate studies. I loved BYU. I loved that my new friends were from all over the country and the world. I loved the opportunities to travel and study abroad and learn new perspectives. As you mentioned, Amy, we met when we studied in Jerusalem, which was a pivotal time in my life as I tried to figure out who I was and who I wanted to become, wrestling with history and current events and cultures that rocked my world. That journey and my mission to Italy for my church led me to know that I wanted to teach,to take ideas and wrestle and grow and learn with young people. When I met Mike, my husband, I was finishing up my studies in English Literature/Humanities and was heading off to Washington DC to do my student teaching. We lived apart that semester, Mike starting medical school in SLC and I having one of the greatest and life-changing adventures teaching at an urban high school. To paint a picture of that semester, Sept. 11th, was my first day on the job. THE Sept. 11th. We went through a lot that year, my students and I. Opened my eyes and my heart.
Following those months of craziness, I got married and ended up working for Sylvan Learning Center in Salt Lake City as a director of education. It was the right fit at the right time, teaching me how to teach the one, those kids who often slipped through the cracks. I had a child (our Utah baby boy) and kept working, putting Mike through medical school. I was fortunate to have a flexible job, great childcare, and an batter-operated breast pump so I could multitask while driving from one school to another. (Thank heavens I never got...
Education: The next theme that really stands out to me is her vision for the education of women. Women are not the inferior sex, maybe physically but not intellectually. They have not been given the chance to prove themselves otherwise. Women are not inferior by nature but by consequence of miseducation.
Women have been relegated to the realm of sensibility or emotion. To the frivolous and shallow, but then are mocked or scorned for it. Yet, she argues, what do we expect of them if that is the only education they are receiving. We cannot expect more from them if this is all they’re given. Like let’s cut women some slack and stop mocking them, since it’s society’s fault that they are “like this”.
She also argued for women to be educated so that they were not left destitute if a man decides he no longer wants to take care of her. “Girls who have been thus weakly educated, are often cruelly left by their parents without provision; and, of course, are dependent on, not only the reason, but the bounty of their brothers. In this equivocal humiliating situation, a docile female may remain some time, with a tolerable degree of comfort. But, when the brother marries, a probable circumstance, from being considered as the mistress of the family, she is viewed with averted looks as an intruder, an unnecessary burden on the benevolence of the master of the house, and his new partner” Basically she not only has to be dependent on the kindness of her brother or other family members that might take pity on her, but she is not equipped in the slightest to deal with what life has dealt her. This message to women that their role in life is to be a wife and then a mother definitely was the message that my mom was given. She dropped out of college, after one semester, when my dad proposed, got married, had my sister pretty quickly and 3 years later, there she was 23, divorced with a toddler and one on the way--that was me. No education. No real job training. This was the early 70’s during second wave feminism so it wasn’t like there was no counter-messaging happening in the greater world about getting an education or training so you can support yourself. But in her world, in the Mormon world, there seemed to be a doubling down on a woman’s place and one that, because she had great faith in the Mormon church, she believed whole-heartedly.
There was always a tension between growing up with a single mom and the idealized version of what a family was supposed to look like in the Mormon church--namely father at the head, mother at the hearth and the children kneeling at their feet. Not quite how I grew up living with my single working mom, but then I would visit my dad twice a year from California to Utah and see it play out that way with my dad and stepmom and siblings and it was mostly confusing and painful for me.
It wasn’t that I wanted my parents to be married and thought that would make everything better for us. All I had ever known was life with my mom. It was more that my siblings had what appeared to be financial stability that we did not have. I know now that my dad and stepmom scrimped and took extra jobs to meet all of their financial obligations but as a kid, it was not lost on me that my dad had an education, a better paying job, and more income than my mom. It was a struggle for my mom.
However, because of her experience as a young bride with no education and then finding herself as a single mother, I grew up with the message that a college education is not an option. Not necessarily because I’m worth being educated, but more because “what if something happens to your husband” you will be left alone and struggling. She didn’t want that for me. I certainly did not want that for myself. But the “in case something happens to your husband” part was lost on me. I was going to college because I had a vision for what I wanted for myself. I wanted a career...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. During our last episode we discussed Olympe de Gouges, and her Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen. We learned how de Gouges was accused of treason and beheaded, and her work never really took off in France or elsewhere, as evidenced by the fact that if you say the name Olympe de Gouges, most people will not have heard of her. However, there was a woman in England writing at the very same time on the very same subject. This was the famous Mary Wollstonecraft, and her book, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Vindication_of_the_Rights_of_Woman (A Vindication of the Rights of Woman: with Strictures on Political and Moral Subjects) is one of the most famous and influential works on this subject in history. Like some of our other texts, this book is so densely packed with material that we’ve decided to break it into two parts. So today we will introduce Wollstonecraft and talk about the historical context in which she wrote, we’ll talk about the Enlightenment and some of the contemporary authors with whom Wollstonecraft was arguing, and we’ll talk about the balance of Reason and Emotion. But before we start, I want to introduce my reading partner, Meagan Cahoon Alder. Hi, Meagan! Meagan: Hi, Amy! Amy: Meagan and I met in Santiago, Chile when we were 21 years old. We were kindred spirits right from the very first moment, and even though we haven’t lived near each other in many years, every time we reconnect I am amazed at both how much we are still alike, and how much I admire you, Meagan. I feel like you’re a trailblazer and a role model for me, and I’m so grateful for your example as we’ve gone through all these years of life. So thank you sooo much for being here. and could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Meagan: Sure, thank you Amy. I am really honored to be a part of your project. Thank you for having me.
A little about me. I come from a large blended family. My oldest sister and I come from my mom and dad, and 6 siblings from my dad and step mom. 8 altogether, 7 girls and 1 boy. We are all pretty close and I wouldn’t trade those relationships for anything.
I grew up mostly in Northern California with just my mom and visited my dad twice a year for summers and Christmas.
Around 16, after having an incredible experience in therapy myself, I decided I wanted to be a therapist when I grew up. At 16 I wasn’t totally sure what kind of therapist, but I knew that I wanted to help people the way that I had been helped.
I’m also a 7th generation Mormon, which is pretty relevant to this podcast as its entire structure is based on a patriarchal foundation and definitely has a huge part to play in how I view and experience the world. And it is through my service in the Mormon church that I met you in Chile at the ripe ol’ age of 21 like you said. And while I have so many things to say about that experience, it is probably best left for another podcast.
Fast forward to coming back from Chile, I got married, graduated from the University of Utah and we headed out to Maryland for graduate school. I went to Virginia Tech in Northern Virginia for a Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy. I worked for a couple of years with adolescents and their families before we had our first daughter in 2007. Our son came just 18 months after that and then three years later, our third. We struggled to get and stay pregnant so while I had some pretty complicated feelings about quitting my job as a therapist, I looked forward to being at home with them.
As time passed though, I felt like a very important part of me was put on ice. As the ice started to melt, that part of me became pretty restless and I realized that staying home without attending to the therapist aspect of myself was not going to be sustainable. I began a little life coaching practice on the side and it...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we’re going to talk about a document from the 18th Century called the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen, by Olympe de Gouges. This declaration is considered an essential text in the study of human rights, but most people I know have never heard of it. An 18th Century declaration most people certainly have heard of is the United States’ Declaration of Independence, written of course in 1776. In France, their landmark announcement of human rights was called “The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen,” and it was written in 1789.
Both of these declarations made important steps forward toward a more inclusive democracy… but both declarations contained glaring omissions. In both countries, white, male land-owners continued to enslave and exploit their fellow human beings, and astonishingly, these declarations of human rights made no mention of this obscene violation of the values of “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” or “Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity.” Further, flying in the face of their noble assertions of human rights, both documents completely excluded women.
France, there really was a woman who wrote a sequel - a rebuke and a correction - to her country’s declaration. Her response to the “Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen,” was “The Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen,” and that’s the text we’re going to discuss today.
But first, let me introduce my reading partner for today’s episode, Lindsay Allebest. Hi, Lindsay!
Lindsay: Hello!
Amy: Lindsay, can you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what makes you you?
Lindsay: Bio
I’m Lindsay, and I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and still consider that home. I love California, my beautiful cat Minerva, and singing whenever I can. I’m now a junior at Boston University studying History! My main area of interest is Early Modern Europe, and I especially love social history, which basically focuses on the lived experiences of people in the past within their social structures. I also love studying Spanish language literature and Classics! Most of what I know about the French Revolution and the document we’re studying today comes from an amazing History class I took at BU during my freshman year.
Amy: Ok, to get us started, I am going to introduce us to Olympe de Gouges - and I should mention how this is spelled so listeners can make sense of how it sounds - it’s Olympe, like Mount Olympus, and Gouges), and please correct me if I get anything wrong… and then you can acquaint us with the circumstances in which she wrote the Declaration of the Rights of Women. Sound good?
Lindsay: Affirmative.
Amy: Ok, so… Olympe de Gouges was born Marie Gouze (that’s spelled Gouze) in southwest France in 1748. Her family was middle class (she was the daughter of a baker, or possibly the illegitimate daughter of a nobleman. She claimed she was, but some people think she made it up.). We know that she had some education in her youth, because she was a great writer, but she was married against her will at age 16 to one of her father’s business associates. The following year, so when she was 17, Marie Gouze gave birth to her only child (a son), and her husband died. Four years later in 1770, she moved to Paris and became involved in some of the intellectual salons in the city. Rather than being known as her late husband’s widow, Marie renamed herself, taking on her mother’s middle name, Olympe, and changing the spelling of her father’s surname. The salons she visited introduced her to well-known writers and politicians at the time. She also began a relationship with a wealthy businessman who supported her financially, but never married again and actively rejected the institution of marriage. While in Paris, de Gouges started a theater company and began writing...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are going to discuss another of Gerda Lerner’s contributions to Women’s History. It’s a logical follow-up to her book The Creation of Patriarchy, which showed the way human beings instituted societal structures wherein men ruled women, from prehistory through the time of the Greeks. The Creation of Feminist Consciousness picks up right about where The Creation of Patriarchy leaves off, at the beginning of the common era, and it continues through the 19th Century. It’s also an exciting text because it documents women’s own writings as they began to wake up and become aware of their subordinate status and try to free themselves of their own internalized sense of inferiority. But before we start, I’d like to introduce my reading partner, Janette Canare. Hi, Janette! Janette: Hi, Amy! Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here! Amy: Can you tell us about yourself? Janette: Well, I currently live in California with my husband Jeff and our two kids, a daughter in high school and a son in college. I’ve lived in California for most of my life now, moving to Silicon Valley for a tech start up in the early 90s. Most people that I meet tend to assume that I grew up in California, but I was born and raised in Virginia. My parents were the first generation to immigrate from the Philippines, moving to Norfolk in the mid-1960s, where my dad was in the Navy. I grew up attending parochial school through high school, but since my 20s I’ve considered myself a lapsed Catholic. These days, I’m currently working towards a master’s degree in the humanities, as you know. Being back to school has kept me pretty busy, but I do enjoy being outdoors--whether hiking, gardening, or for photography. I also love art, theatre, and travelling and hope one day to be able to resume that. Amy: I hope so too - when you finally make it to Paris I am going to visit you there!! And then I also want to ask you what interested you in this project. Janette: My interest in the topic of the patriarchy is two-fold. First, from an academic standpoint, my first year of graduate school was spent reading the foundational texts of the Western canon. In two quarters, we covered 2,000 years reading over 20 books, but of those 20, only two were written by women! I recall that it was a “collective lightbulb moment” shared between most of the women in my program...that in 2 millenia, only two books from women were represented. It was crushing to consider that for some reason, women had produced so few surviving works during the same period that gave us Plato, Aristotle, Virgil, Augustine, Dante, Descartes, and so on. Just saying these names, we think of their contributions to Western Civ. But where were the women? My second interest in this topic is more personal. Looking at the literature of women’s history is also motivated by my desire to better understand my own mother. She was born in the 1930s and whether due to World War II or other reasons, she herself grew up to be very motivated to pursue both her education and a career. From the stories she told me as I grew up, she was very proud of her career in the Philippines, and coming to this country, she continued to work in her field. Yet, growing up I was very aware of the fact that when it came to decision-making, my mom would always default to my father. I never really understood why until I started to understand more about the patriarchy. Suddenly, things started to click into place--patterns of behavior that I noticed in my mom and now sometimes notice in myself. So thank you for asking me to participate in this project! I’m excited to discuss Gerda Lerner’s book with you. Amy: I’m excited too! So to set the stage, I thought we could share some quotes by prominent men during the centuries that this book covers, the 1st through 18th Centuries, in the part of the world that this book covers, which is basically...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. During our last two episodes, Sherrie Crawford and I discussed Gerda Lerner’s The Creation of Patriarchy, and we talked about structural patriarchy in the ancient world, including in the Bible. Just a couple of days after we recorded those episodes, some dear friends of mine and my husband had their first baby, a little boy. They’re Jewish, and we were invited to the bris. I couldn’t believe the timing - the very week I had talked about circumcision on the podcast, what we had called “the penis covenant,” I was going to witness a “bris,” which is a ritual circumcision and in Hebrew means “covenant.” I logged onto Zoom- this podcast was recorded during the Covid pandemic so everything is virtual - and saw my friends there with their new baby and their family and their rabbi and my heart was so full I was immediately emotional. I have a deep affinity for Judaism due to having had Jewish friends my whole life and being a guest at many Jewish ceremonies, which are always moving for me. And Sherrie and I studied in Israel for five months during college and took Hebrew language and History of the Jewish people. And of course because of our shared book of scripture I’ve always felt like we’re spiritual cousins, along with all the other sects of Christianity and with Islam, the other “peoples of the book.” But because we had just read Gerda Lerner’s book - Gerda Lerner was also Jewish by the way, and I think part of her project was confronting the male supremacy in her own religious tradition - I had all of the parts of the Bible that excluded women fresh in my mind. And so parts of the bris were really hard for me. It was hard for me that the ceremony was really truly a continuation of the Abraham covenant - which is a special bond between a male Father God and his male prophet, and that man’s son, and that man’s son, and that man’s son, all the way down through the “sons of Israel.” I know that Jewish heritage is traced through the mother, which is lovely (and Christians don’t have that matrilineality) but the covenant with God is through the men, and the token was in the flesh of the male organ, physically, by definition, excluding people who are biologically female. And there is no counterpart for the girls - there’s no ceremony named after a Matriarch where girls are brought into a covenant with a Mother God. It was really hard for me when they referred to any of the scriptures because all the stories were all about men, written by men, written for men. I felt the way I often feel in my own religious heritage - so completely left out. So completely marginal, in a spectator role, while God does the important stuff with his favorite children, the boys. But it was also soooo beautiful. The way this family practices Judaism did include the women - the grandma held the baby’s hands while he was circumcised. The baby’s mother and the baby’s father took turns speaking, and by the way, the baby’s mother is one of the most educated, most accomplished, most powerful women I know. And his grandparents, and his aunts and uncles, both men and women, spoke. The gown the baby wore had been worn by grandfathers and uncles, but also his mother and aunt at their naming ceremonies. The blessings and hopes and wishes and desires for peace and strength and joy and renewal were so exquisitely beautiful, and I bawled my eyes out through the whole thing. When the rabbi wrapped our friends and their baby together in a tallit, or prayer shawl, I felt like my heart was going to burst. The love of that mother and father for each other and for their baby, the connection with their ancestors and their faith tradition, the community that they had so generously made me a part of, welcoming that baby into the world… it was so, so beautiful. And it was still so, so hard for me. I share this because this experience highlighted again how complicated it all is. There is joy tangled up...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today we are going to resume our discussion of Gerda Lerner’s book, The Creation of Patriarchy. Written in 1986, this book analyzes ancient texts in great detail, chronicling the development of patriarchal systems from humans’ prehistoric past through the time of the ancient Greeks. My reading partner for this book is Sherrie Crawford, and she’s joining me again today for the second half! Hi, Sherrie! Sherrie: Hi, Amy! [Amy: Before we start the discussion today I have to tell you: this past week my girls came to me and said someone had posted on Instagram a quote by Phyllis Schlafly that says “The claim that American women are downtrodden and unfairly treated is the fraud of the century.” And someone we are close to had “liked” that post on Instagram. So my family (including my husband and son) all talked about it - how did that quote make us feel and why? Was there any truth to it? How do we respond? And after feeling hurt and angry but trying to understand why Schlafly said it and why this person had “liked” it, we thought that one response would be to agree that American women are not nearly as downtrodden and unfairly treated as they used to be. And we should feel grateful for that. Sherrie, that’s how you ended the last episode of the podcast - with your gratitude for how much better things are now. And, that gratitude for continued improvement goes to our foremothers and their male allies for fighting for those changes, every step of the way. People are too quick to forget those battles and praise the heroes or heroines of the past who, in their time, were villainized and told they were too progressive and were ruining society, and whose “scandalous” work is now taken for granted. So that experience this week reminded me how important this project is to me - when I encounter a quote like that and it makes me feel hurt and misunderstood, but I also kind of doubt myself… I want to be armed with knowledge about the past and facts about our present situation. And that is the purpose of this podcast.]
Ok, so last week we talked about the Agricultural Revolution, and we dug into some of humanity’s earliest written records, like the Code of Hammurabi, and we ended by talking about the ancient goddesses Inanna/Ishtar and Asherah. We talked about how those goddesses were subjugated by the male gods of other, male-dominant religions, which of course reflected the beliefs of the people who were conquering the goddess-worshipping people at the time. And that’s where we are going to pick back up today. We’ll talk about some really fascinating chapters on the Judeo-Christian scriptures and the ancient Greeks, and we’ll cover some of Lerner’s conclusions. Amy: Overview of Hebrew Civilization/Bible as a historical document [So we’re going to start today with the Hebrew Bible. Lerner points out that many of Western Civilization’s metaphors and definitions and ways of viewing gender come from the Bible. Kind of like the analogy I used last time of an ancient city where generation after generation builds their town along the same grid created thousands of years ago, human beings have thought about themselves and each other along foundational tracks that were laid thousands of years ago by this one particular group of people called the Hebrews. So who laid down these foundations that we still build on? When? What were the circumstances? I want to tread gently here, because I grew up believing that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, or the Pentateuch, which in Judaism is called the Torah. I believed that God spoke to Moses, and Moses wrote a record, and that that record hadn’t been changed except in more or less accurate translations, and I trusted that it was literally true. The stories of the Bible were sacred to me. So I want to say here that we are going to be discussing the Bible as a foundational historical...
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy, I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Have you ever been to a beautiful city somewhere where there are cafes and shops and businesses built along narrow streets… and you learn that the foundations of the streets were laid thousands of years ago? They’ve been inhabited continuously, with people living their lives, tearing down old structures and building up new ones, over and over again upon that same grid, those same streets, generation after generation. Have you ever wondered, Who decided on this street layout? When? Why? Somebody made it up at some point. Is this city grid still serving the needs of the people who are building their lives on these streets now? Today we will be discussing a book that examines the foundations of patriarchy - the cultural, psychological, and political system upon which humans have been building their societies and their religions and their personal lives for thousands of years. The book is called The Creation of Patriarchy, by Gerda Lerner. Written in 1986, it answers the who, when, how, and why of these foundations. But before we start, I’d like to introduce my guest, Sherrie Crawford! Hi Sherrie!
Sherrie: Hi, Amy!
Amy: Sherrie and I met in Cairo, Egypt, when we were both college students on a semester abroad in Jerusalem. We were in a writing group together, and then later ended up reconnecting as young moms and forming a Joy School together. We’ve been friends all this time, even though we’ve lived far apart, and Sherrie I’m so grateful to have you onboard this project and excited to have you here today!
Sherrie: So happy to be here!
Amy: Let’s start out with an introduction - can you tell us a bit about yourself? Where you’re from, and what makes you you?
Sherrie:
Sure! I’m Sherrie Crawford. I’m the 5th of 6 children, born into a low socioeconomic status Mormon family. I was born in Utah, and grew up in Arizona, and while my grandparents had money and provided nice Christmases and trips to Disneyland for us, I think of my growing up as being “everyday poor.” Education wasn’t encouraged in my family - some of my family members didn’t finish high school, and I didn’t have college aspirations for myself. I kind of “accidentally” went to college, because my seminary teacher Brother Burkhart signed me up for LDS Business College, and I went. Later my friend Tami told me about the BYU Jerusalem study abroad program, and I signed up. The cost was $8,000, which felt like a million dollars at the time! My grammy and grandpa helped a little and my parents helped a little, I received a scholarship, but I sold my Bronco and earned most of that money myself. After Jerusalem I went to BYU Provo, and then I did the next Mormon thing, which was to get married and make babies! I put my studies on hold so that my husband could finish his degree, and we had our first baby right away. My husband stayed in school for 13 years until he eventually earned a PhD in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Utah, and got a job in Idaho Falls, ID, where we live today. We had four kids along the way, and when my youngest was in kindergarten I knew I needed to change something about my life. Being at home full-time without children wasn't satisfying for me. I searched deep inside and decided to finish my education. I had never planned to finish school and only had envisioned being a stay at home mom for my life. This decision led to a full blown panic attack. I didn’t know what it was at the time - I thought I was having a heart attack - but when I went in to the doctor I learned my heart was just fine. So I went back to school! I attended BYU-Idaho, so I went to almost all of the Mormon schools. Some of my highlights include studying U.S. women’s history with Dr. Andrea Radke-Moss and religion with Dr. Janiece Johnson. With Dr. Johnson I was able to explore the notion of the divine feminine and incorporate more of
Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy. I’m Amy McPhie Allebest. Today’s episode will be a discussion of the book The Chalice and the Blade, by Riane Eisler. This book was published in 1987, and along with other female archaeologists working at the time, Eisler proposed theories about humans’ prehistoric past that caused quite a stir in the field of archaeology and gave rise to a spiritual “goddess” movement within feminism in the 1980’s and 90’s. (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-11-tm-2975-story.html (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-11-tm-2975-story.html)) But before we dive in, I’m excited to introduce my first reading partner, Malia Morris. Hi Malia! Malia: Hi Amy! Amy: Malia and I are neighbors here in California, and Malia, I’m thrilled that you joined this project because you are such a brilliant thinker and an amazing person. So Malia, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Your background and what you like to do and your point of view that you bring to the text? Malia: (Bio) Amy: Can I also ask you what interested you in the project? Malia: (What interested Malia in the project) Amy: Thank you so much for being here! And with that, let’s dive in. Malia, can you give us some background on Riane Eisler, and some of the main points that we’ll be discussing in her book, The Chalice and the Blade. Malia: Riane Eisler is a social systems scientist, cultural historian, and attorney whose research, writing, and speaking has transformed the lives of people worldwide. She lived through the Nazi occupation of Austria when she was a child, and she writes the following about that experience: “I was born in Vienna, and my parents and I lived there until Austria was annexed by Nazi Germany. On Kristallnacht, so called because of all the glass shattered in Jewish homes, synagogues, and businesses, a gang of Gestapo men broke into our home and dragged my father off. That was terrifying. But that night I also witnessed something I carried with me the rest of my life. My mother stood up to these men.” Riane fled from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_seizure_of_power (Nazis) with her parents to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba (Cuba) as a small child, and later emigrated to the United States. She obtained degrees in sociology and law from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Los_Angeles (UCLA), and her lifelong questions about how and why human beings are so brutal to each other led to her work in Anthropology. Eisler taught pioneering classes on women and the law at UCLA; and has taught in the graduate Transformative Leadership Program at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_of_Integral_Studies (California Institute of Integral Studies) and the Anthropology Department at the University of Alabama, Birmingham, as well as online through the Center for Partnership Studies and the Omega Institute. She is editor-in-chief of the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota (University of Minnesota) and President of the Center for Partnership Studies, dedicated to research and education on the “partnership model” introduced by her research. Sources: https://rianeeisler.com/ (https://rianeeisler.com/) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riane_Eisler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riane_Eisler) https://centerforpartnership.org/ (https://centerforpartnership.org/) This book is full of information, but we chose to highlight these three points: In multiple locations, at various times, there is archeological evidence of peaceful, woman-centered cultures. Eisler calls these societies “Partnership cultures.” Every one of these societies was eventually overtaken by invaders that brought aggression and the institution of social hierarchies. Eisler calls these societies “Dominator cultures.” Eisler points out the...
Episode 1: Introduction "Men and women live on a stage, on which they act out their assigned roles, equal in importance. The play cannot go on without both kinds of performers. Neither of them “contributes” more or less to the whole; neither is marginal or dispensable. But the stage set is conceived, painted, defined by men. Men have written the play, have directed the show, interpreted the meanings of the action. They have assigned themselves the most interesting, most heroic parts, giving women the supporting roles. As the women become aware of the difference in the way they fit into the play, they ask for more equality in the role assignments. They upstage the men at times, at other times they pinch-hit for a missing male performer. The women finally, after considerable struggle, win the right of access to equal role assignment, but first they must “qualify.” The terms of their qualifications” are again set by the men; men are the judges of how women measure up; men grant or deny admission. They give preference to docile women and to those who fit their job-descriptions accurately. Men punish, by ridicule, exclusion, or ostracism, any woman who assumes the right to interpret her own role or -worst of all sins - the right to rewrite the script. It takes considerable time for the women to understand that getting “equal” parts will not make them equal, as long as the script, the props, the stage setting, and the direction are firmly held by men. When the women begin to realize that and cluster together between the acts, or even during the performance, to discuss what to do about it, this play comes to an end.” -Gerda Lerner, The Creation of Patriarchy I’m Amy McPhie Allebest, and this is "Breaking Down Patriarchy." On this podcast when we say “Breaking Down Patriarchy,” we mean it in both senses of the word. We mean we want to “break it down” as in, understand it. We want to study Patriarchy as deeply and thoroughly as we can so that we can see the roots of this system, and understand how things have come to be the way they are today. And we’re not gonna lie, we also mean we want to “break down Patriarchy” in terms of dismantling it. But we have a specific vision of how we want to accomplish this deconstruction. Returning to Gerda Lerner’s analogy where men and women are participating in a play together, in close proximity to each other and interconnected with each other, if someone starts swinging around a sledgehammer, trying to bring the set down, two things are likely to happen: one, the hammer will probably hit people in the face – maybe other women, or maybe men, who didn’t build the set or write the script either and are just doing their best trying to play the roles they were taught. Some of my very favorite people in the world are men – my dad, my brother, my brothers-in-law, my father-in-law, my sweet nephews, my male friends, my husband, who is my best friend and my son, who along with my daughters is the absolute joy of my life. I would not want anyone hitting these boys and men in the face with a hammer. So this podcast is not about women breaking down men. This is about women and men learning together and working together to create a system that is more just and happy for everyone. The other problem with swinging a sledgehammer around on a stage is that it just tends to destroy whatever happens to be nearby. If you’re standing on stage and you start swinging a hammer around, you might take out some lighting or rip up the curtains, but you're not going to bring the whole stage down or cause the entire company to stop the show. So to us, “breaking down patriarchy” means breaking it down intelligently and methodically. So here's how we are going to go about it: if you’ve ever taken a class on the History of Civilization or had a Liberal Arts curriculum in college, you’ll remember that students usually start with humanity’s first written language in Mesopotamia, like the Code of...