Paul: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back. This is Paul. Hi, Jelena. 

Jelena: this is Jelena. 

Paul: For our first episode with a guest, we have a, a great, a great man, a legend, a Titan of industry. We have Michael Keller with us to talk about learning frustrations, training, tutorials, all that kind of good stuff, the in the SAP sphere.

And I think with that, Jelena take us away. Let's just, let's just start going. 

Jelena: Yeah, sure. I want to welcome Michael to our podcast, please say hi.

Michael: Hello, greetings from Germany.

Jelena: Excellent. So we, the starting point of our conversation today is a blog that has been posted on SAP community by I don't want to butcher his name, but they hope I pronounce it semi correctly, right. Radoslaw Chudziak. The book title was learning frustrations, often SAP developer, and I think all of us[00:01:00] personally and Michael, we both commented on the blog itself.

And I think all of us can totally relate to the subject of this blog. So I, I'm curious to hear from both of you how do you relate personally to the subjects that that is raised in this, in this post? And we can start with Paul.

Paul: Yeah. So, okay. Thank you. I think so, as I reflect on, we kind of want this blog post and I reflect on my sort of personal learning journey in SAP. I think the, I think one of the key points here that was for me was the, so when I say. It was, I had a very specific, my job was I went from a different job in the development world into an ABAP developer job.

And so the company that I was with, they sent me to an ABAP training course, because this was like 2010. So the online presence of that stuff was less, it was there, but it was less. So they sent me to a specific place that had like an SAP. [00:02:00] And so I was like, okay, well, I'm going to be a good little student.

I'm going to do all this stuff the right way. And I'll do S flight, this S flight desk, blah, blah, blah. And it was a week long stuff. My brain was full by the end. And I came back to my job and. It was, it was, it was almost like, because, so then I got back to my job eventually I got my sort of my first rice F like assignment, you know what I mean?

Like do this report or do this. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I remember thinking to myself, this, this training basically did nothing for me in terms of what I would be doing, because, like I was already sort of a relatively experienced developer, you know, and it, it basically did nothing for me in terms of getting that job done, because all of, all of the stuff that was hard, like for somebody who is a programmer, you understand like swapping variables and [00:03:00] this and assignments and things like that in sub routines already.

I did not understand anything about SAP processes. I didn't understand anything about the, the sort of like the, the, the divisions of RICEFWs in general and what those things were. It would've been, it would have been infinitely more powerful for me to have done that training and to have done like a real, like literally SAP must have like a backlog of like, here are actual customer enhancements that they have done to actual things and say, okay, your job is to enhance the sales order.

Do you have another field that does this and this and this when the customer clicks save or whatever, and that flow happens. And that, that would have, that would have set me off on a thousand different places. So it was okay. The training was okay, but I still, I still. I left not [00:04:00] having kind of gotten the speed I needed to do what I was really going to do because there's programming.

And then there's what you do when your program and SAP development is, has like lots of, a lot closer, like stitch togetherness to business processes than other languages and things like that. And it would have been really nice to been, to been like, sort of bundle up together with like, here's an, here's a real-world example of an enhancement to sales or a screen or whatever.

Right. That's kind of stuff. Anyway, that was my experience of kind of onboarding and training and stuff. And I really, I really reflected on that when I saw this, this piece out there, because I was, I, I feel for people who land inside SAP and they're like, oh my God, I'm in like a. in a different universe, you know, I'm floating in space compared to like there's possibilities.

And like, I don't have, I don't have a map. I don't have rockets to get there from where I am now. [00:05:00] Anyway, I, I I've just babbled on a lot, but that's, that's my sort of learning perspective on that stuff. 

Jelena: Yeah. Yeah, definitely think it's something we can all relate to. I think SAP development is sometimes not even as much about development itself as a. Firefighting, I think your language skills, but it is, as you said, it's about business process. It's about data model. So it's really much more to that. So Michael what's what's what do you think, where, where did this blog touched?

You personally?

Michael: Very personally, I agree with a lot of the points in the blog, and I want to compare it with lego bricks. Perhaps you know these little lego bricks. Yes. And when you are a child, you are building a house with it. And when you were an adult, perhaps you play with lego bricks from time to time. 

Paul: Yeah, 

Michael: It's like working with lego bricks, you can build a house, a small, tiny house, and then your customer comes in and ask you to build a skyscraper [00:06:00] because you can build a little house. And he said, oh, build a skyscraper and do it with what, not the stolen material. And you're sitting there and thinking, okay basically. I know how to do it. I have an idea about, oh, I need an architect. I need some experts for that, that, that, so the blog describes a lot of points that I experienced in the past very well. Think about your experience with, or your journey with the business. And you first tried to try to post a partial order and you were Ridley, you were so bewildered, what fields have to be filled

Jelena: Yup.

Michael: that you get this magical sentence? Yes, it's posted

Jelena: Yeah, exactly. It's like, does this field work [00:07:00] now? Does this field work? Can you tell me, what do you want me to do? No, you just, just keep trying, just keep trying, keep, keep entering some fields and eventually it's going to work out. Yeah, it's still totally ridiculous. And I think that overtime. Some, in some cases actually CP when they hadn't updated poppy documentation, but in most cases, even today, you look at.

Really, there are thankfully many posts on SAP community where you can find out what's actually needed. But in most cases, I mean, no one bothered it really to go back and update the commendation for them even using the same community posts. So, yeah, it's very, yeah. And I just want to speak for myself for a second time.

Totally when I saw this blog, when they just saw the title in my RSS feed, I was like, yeah. So that's, that's something that they, that they totally feel. And there is just so much going on and I feel that sometimes even developers get sort of a backlash for that. Well, what do you mean? You know, it's always, you need to [00:08:00] always slower and you need to always.

I totally agree with that. But if you do not give someone specific direction, what, what should they learn really more specifically, not just, yeah, I mean, totally. I learn things every day in many areas, but for my professional life, I would really appreciate better direction. Like what would, what would work for me?

What would work with my preferences and with systems that I'm working in. But I feel that that's just not there at least, at least still not yet, even though we we are long ago since the days when Paul started his career, when I started with Michael started and still were talking about the same issues that existed many, many years ago.

So that kind of takes us to another subject that that they wanted to discuss. It's the learning material. So this is, I feel the case when too much is not really good. Because there is so much content and it's really great compared to having [00:09:00] no content at all, which was the case maybe 20 years ago.

But it is gotten to the point where developers are overwhelmed and it's not just the platforms themselves, even those are. Well, very manual right now is there is SAP community was a blog post and some Q and a, there are YouTube videos that are open. The CP courses. There is, there is official official SAP training, which is probably quite far from your life at this point.

There is. There used to be SAP learning. I think it still exists at least for certification and SAP just opened officially is our new learning websites which so far I'm not convinced is solving really any problem. So so how do you feel about this proliferation of different platforms and overall kind of spreading of information and knowledge and how can developers manage that better?

Paul: So, let me, let me jump in here real quick, like, I, [00:10:00] I don't want to, so here, I'll preface this with this. Is it like SAP has an enviable, not an unenviable problem here, because, because to go from like total new to like proficient or whatever. I think it's probably a more daunting task in the SAP universe than it is in, you know, Java, Python, whatever is because you have, you have a lot of places to jump to and you have a lot of like programming, proficiency being a good programmer is not even close to enough to do the right thing, so to speak in this place. 

And so like, I like, I totally, I mean, I, I don't what I, while I might be saying like, okay, this, this or that is not good enough. It's not to say that like, oh, SAP, you really stink. And I hate you. That's not the case at all. [00:11:00] It's just that they have a hard challenge because of the complexity of the topics here is enormous it, when you consider what somebody has to go through to, to, to get to where they need to go. In other words, think about this. Like my, my first, probably my first year of doing SAP work of any kind, I was like, how is anybody an expert in this? This is, I was like, I'm drowning. How is, how is it even possible to be good at this?

There's way too much. And every little thing is like different from the other things. And every little, like, if you do some HR programming, you know what I mean? You guys know what I mean? Like you do, you go do some info type stuff, and then you jump over like SAP, TM or something in the BOPF other places, right.

You're like, how are these the same system at all? You know? And it's that, that's like it's broad and. And so there are lots of things there, [00:12:00] but so there, but there are some places where I think that like, I've also done a lot of stuff with cloud platforms like Azure, Google cloud, that kind of stuff.

And I wish I totally wish SAP documentation felt like Microsoft Azure documentation because that stuff is like that, that, that documentation has. Like they start, there's a lot of places where they start from a scenario. They're saying, if you want to do this and this here's the path. And it has a lot more than just click this to turn on this thing and go ABC.

It's really, from the perspective of. If you're doing this with this architecture, try this. And like it's got, it's got a lot more, it's got a lot better flow, a lot better understanding a lot better, all that kind of stuff. That's. If, if I, if I had a way to like pour the SAP knowledge into the [00:13:00] Azure shape, I would 100% do that 100% in a heartbeat.

That's my, that's my like, rambly answer to this question. If that makes any sense at all. 

Jelena: No. Yeah. I make a mental notes. Yeah. I want to hear from Michael and after that, I want to jump to some of, some, some of my mental notes. So, Michael, what, what do you think about this?

Michael: I like this idea, really give the people a motivation or a good introduction. And then the right action. There are a lot of good platforms with a lot of content and that's at the same time, the big problem, because.

Jelena: Yeah,

Michael: A lot of promise. You have not enough time over the whole working day to say, oh, I'm visiting platform.

One that from 2, 3, 4, oh, there, new content. I have to learn it now. Oh, I have to do exercises with it. And that's for me a big problem to say, okay why should I learn that now? Do I [00:14:00] need it? And what's the motivation for that because you can be very good in a special of the system or in a special area, I'm doing a lot of logistics and I have to say. I think a lot of people are thinking about handling units. Very special part, very important. 

You can do a sales and distribution, but never have to do something with helping units. But if you want to learn something about it, you need a real life real world. Samples. And then you need the system, the processes, the idea behind you need to weigh a portrait of a, the way backward when you have to reword something.

And so on, there are a lot of things to learn and that's not easy. Then I want to say. The documentation about ABAP, for example, changed a little bit. One day we had this, this, this, the introduction of expressions, a lot of expressions table expressions and so on. And you can, [00:15:00] you're now able to do a lot of things in one line of code. 

Paul: Love it. Love it. Yes. 

Michael: That's very good. If you know what you want to do. And if you're a beginner you have in one line of code three, four statements included and yeah, you don't, you have no clue what, why it is. What is this doing? You cannot read target and examples in the documentation changed a little bit and. Yeah, very complex now for beginner.

It's out. If you're doing a long time above, you would say, oh great. Now three lines of code where I needed in the past 20 lines. Great.

Jelena: Yeah. Yeah. It can be blessing in the chorus, you know, to the extent it's this sure thing. So, yeah. So yeah. I want to touch on a couple of items because I see some connections between what we just talked about before [00:16:00] and now first of all SAP documentation and SAP help in particular.

So just recently I made the post on Twitter. Became quite popular. I made it when I was really frustrated. I spent my morning going through different Google searches that arrived at SAP documentation. But as anyone who's ever opened, this helped@thecp.com. I think we all know the feeling quite well when you're like confused Travolta, most of the times are if you know, like very specifically very, exactly what you're looking for, which, which is probably.

No. It's the typical scenario when people go into is health, because if you know what you're looking for, then you're already halfway there. So, but if you are kind of stumbling and trying to figure out what's the best way to do this, what's the appropriate way. What's good for my version that I'm working with, then you are most of the time, essentially, a lot of stem and the rods know it's 11:00 AM and they feel like I need a drink.

So after. Some people from [00:17:00] SAP reached out to me privately, which, which I'm very grateful for. I think it's great that they're trying to do that honestly. And sincerely trying to act on the feedback, but say the feedback was like, oh, you know, yeah. We read the Twitter world. Can you give us like more specific examples?

And on one side, I totally understand where they're coming from, because if you don't have more specifics, you cannot act on it. But it's the same time to me. It is just such a systemic issue. That I honestly, I just want to reply to them. I could spend my whole day giving you examples. Would it change anything really?

And I, I'm more concerned that if, if I give examples and you're just going to, oh, you know, this is, oh, you're just doing search wrong. And this happened before with many feedbacks that were given to SAP from Andrews, et cetera. So I think it is really. Paul pointed out when we go to SAP documentation and that means SAP help or the communication within the systems, we really would like to see some things that compare us to [00:18:00] Microsoft.

And those are, you know, more of like development, mature companies. And, and that's our point that another note that they made, so we talked about ABA is not as much about language, but about business process and data, but this is exactly the missing. 'cause all those learnings they go about as flight, which everyone hates at this point, or it goes about the training model and it is like oh, you know, let's, let's just do direct updates to the stable and we're going to show you how it works.

Very rarely where we went up, they was directly in SAP. Most of our time is just Michael said before it's working with BAPIs or other APIs or other SAP functionality. And just trying to wrangle it into something that customers really wanted to do. And this is I think the main struggling points that, that none of that nothing absolutely covers right now as a result.

Blog posts by passionate, you know, SAP community members [00:19:00] and maybe some GitHub examples that I'm really glad they're starting to emerge. But I feel there is really no, no place where someone can learn the right things in the right context right now. So, yeah. That's my take on it. And I think so just go in to very excellent points.

I just, just want to read the exact quote. The bottom line is that we have to deliver real world solutions, which are more complex than all this developed by CP UI five, five, and five minutes or using the famous flight data model. So I think that he just keeps it nail on the head right there.

It's a main challenge is that. And yes, to some extent I can think of as white and transform it into so sales order approaches for there. But if I do not update like Rebag, I have directly never like in my life. So that's just completely different challenge. [00:20:00] So, so what, so what do you guys think? What, what could possibly be helpful to kind of brings us together to combine learnings that's more theoretical and more just about language syntax and all of that with real world works at SAP developers.

Paul: I mean, you know, I've been jumping in, but I want to make sure I pass the ball to Michael first here. Sorry, I apologize for that, Michael. You're the honored guest, 

Jelena: Right.

Paul: I invite you to speak before me. 

Michael: Yeah. Oh, what should I say? I think you need, you have to pay attention to a very basic example. That's what we mostly have. And then you need a very hard example. Bigger one, a real life example, combined was a business process and was perhaps traps and pitfalls in it. You have to pay special attention.

This is only working. Why [00:21:00] that's a good sentence then? As you said, a tutorial worth doing that in five minutes. That's okay. You can do that. You can learn it in five minutes. Just address the basics. So we need more real life examples and they should not be divided into a technical and business part.

They should combine it because no customer is asking you a one day for enhanced S flight model or something like that. They would say I talk with you about purchase order say it's order other documents. So you should use. Because you learn a lot about the data models. And if you are working with the data, you have an idea what are needed here.

And what is the need of my customer, Y do we want to, to extent to process and we should have, have a lot of examples like that. That would be great.

Paul: You know, I was one of [00:22:00] the reasons I was kind of staring up into space here, as we were talking about this a little bit as I was like, you know, because examples are the best thing in the universe. Like they just are, and. And I, when I think back to all of the custom development I've done over the years for various things for customers. And when I was an internal employee of a company, that kind of stuff to you know, the great majority of that work was not like, how do I put this? I was not inventing a new search engine. When I'm doing that stuff. And so they're like, if, if that code that I wrote either the ABAP code or the code, for example, or whatever other supporting code I might have produced, if that code was out in the universe, it would not harm that business at all.

It wouldn't be. Right. And I think maybe there's, there's a gap somewhere in [00:23:00] that, like there's some business out there, or some consulting agency out there should adopt like a completely open model of like all of the, all of the stuff that we do. All the code we've written. Is there for the university. And that would capture like real examples of like really doing the real things with stuff.

And it would capture the, the weird, it's always about the weird quirky thing, right? There's the 90% of your code that just like lands there and does what it does. And then there's the 10% of your code that you're like, I, I can't quite make my internal table fit the format of the, the spec for this BAPI and I have to go through like crazy gyrations. make it work. Those crazy gyrations are valuable because that's where you get to see examples of things you don't see every day. And if that code was just in the universe for people to go see, maybe there'd be [00:24:00] better ways to, to learn from that stuff. So, I mean, that's just one piece of it.

Right? The other piece of it, I think is that like, people should just be. I don't, I don't know how SAP itself would solve this. Maybe they could, but like the SAP community, whatever that means these days should, should like adopt more and more and more of an open source model of some kind that says, I, you know, this was really. I don't know, like the I'm gonna get on a soapbox again.

Fair. Your second, like messed up things, things that you're like that you got working, but you're not particularly proud of. Those are some of the best things to learn from because chances are, if you struggled with something and you came up with a solution, you're like, oh, that's ugly.

But it works. Chances are, that was the best anybody could do. With a weird thing and people should like somebody out there else out there in the universe or in the globe where my hand is like sort of floating of the, somebody [00:25:00] in somebody covered by my hand on this globe here is having that same problem today and could totally benefit from you just saying this sucks, but I did it here, here, universe, have it.

Right. If there was a way to, to just like, have all of the code. Just be in the universe available. That would, that would do a lot. That's a big dream. I know it's a big dream and probably can't actually be done, but it would go a long way. 

Jelena: Yeah. And, and, and look at those, those projects that already exist, how they're like, how about gates? That's open source about two XLSX that I think many customers are using right now. And even for ourselves, if you know, it's, it's going joke in SEP communities that every month someone posts, blog.

Talking about stoves at above [00:26:00] text that's already, but, and every time it's like, well, yeah, but my client doesn't want to install it every time I like to you can't be serious, honestly, these days. I mean, who, who is your client? I mean, North Korea. I mean, come on now. It's just, I think you just need to be more, more kind of push, push forward with that, then just steer your clients in the right direction.

Paul: So it's, sometimes things have to come from like the ground up on us, us, like, you know, foot soldiers on the field of code battle need to be, you know, knocking on the General's tent and say, Hey, spread the love. Right. Or whatever. 

Jelena: Yeah. So, yeah, I think that there is a lot of feedback that can be given and I do not always see the tools or opportunities as they used to give this type of feedback. So I [00:27:00] think that's, that's definitely an issue that SAP should be able to solve. Because just take for example, Same direct messages that I mentioned about the CP help.

So why, why is there no official channel? Well, where hundreds of people can tell you, Hey, you know, this page sucks and it has a link that goes nowhere or require some kind of secret login from me. Or I can not understand what this is talking about, but it's the best thing they have. Is it was, it was this page was this page. I mean, it was helpful because it exists and they make you heard quotes here for those. It's better than nothing, but if I'm completely honest it leaves a lot to be desired because it sounds like a reader. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Jelena: It tells me something, but in some cases tells me too much not what they really want to know.

It doesn't give me examples and CDS view. I think it could example in this area we had, for example, And turn on Mindset learning [00:28:00] sessions that we have every month. We just gathered together with developers and talk about stuff. So it was the most recent one we had to Pete about CDS views and to different connotations and different acuities and to the presenter who did that was Ethan Jewett, basically the way he said, well, you can find examples in UI documentation. Why are CDS examples in UI documentation? When they go to the confrontation? There are no examples whatsoever. I look in says, here's the notation syntax, great! How, how do I use it? Where do I use it? Why do I use it? Can you tell me more about this? No. Nothing, because there is hundreds of different notations.

Here is the list. Look at it. This is just absolutely ridiculous situation in my view.

Michael: Yeah, it's a big challenge. Big challenge because we have, we have a lot of new technology in the last years and all [00:29:00] we need to adopt it, to bring it into the masses. And that's hard if you're working every day, a lot of your working day on old box problems to keep something life that was written 20 years ago.

Perhaps you cannot use any new Hardings methods or ideas to deal with this old code. And then you say, oh, I have to learn now about CDs, but you cannot really use it. How you have to deal with new stuff on the business. Technology platform really create an interesting, but if you your working time is over, you want to go home.

Paul: Yeah, 

Jelena: Yeah, exactly.

Paul: I think the SAP space is especially tough from that scenario because you, I honestly think you probably work on slightly to moderately older code, a lot more of your time in the SAP space and a lot of [00:30:00] other sort of enterprise it places. I think they have a little bit more freedom to, to go, you know, exploring in the universe of new tools in their space than the SAP devs.

Do I think SAP devs are kind of. Slightly more locked into where they are, maybe not by choice, but by just by the nature of the platform that we use to, to produce, to produce their solution is we get locked into the old thing is, and it's to Michael's point, it's really hard to. A find the time, but be convinced management to let, give you the time to go play in the new playground.

Because I mean, I don't know, let's be real SAP development is also not seen as necessarily like a an innovation center. It's more seen as a, keep the lights on center. 

Jelena: Yeah, of course cost center. 

Paul: Yeah. It's tough. 

Jelena: Yeah. So it's, it's kind of vicious circle because as [00:31:00] you said, it's, it's exactly to put what Michael said before your day spent half of your day spent trying to find how the heck this puppy works and trying to make things just purely work, just trying to satisfy client requirements.

And it can be just exhausting because you don't really know what, what you're supposed to do. And you're just trial and there are trying to push it in. It's like, What's the expression square peg round hole. So something along those lines. So your days are essentially wasted on that. And in many cases, we work either as consultants with the clients or as full-time developers working for a specific company, you are limited to what tools are available there.

And it could be all ECC systems. There are still systems that do not even have like 7.4 syntax. I, I worked in one of them just a couple of years ago or S/4HANA systems that are not latest and greatest cloud as for how the cloud, to be honest. Do not really [00:32:00] know, many people may be a couple who even work with those systems outside of who works for SAP.

Of course. So maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd. I don't know. Maybe I'm not, I'm kind of stuck in, stuck in the past myself, but I think the reality is still majority of customers is, is running on premise system. That does. That's just what it is. I don't know when and how it's going to change.

Going back to Paul's point for the manager to give you time. They need to provide some justification. So, okay. We'll let this guy or girl spend some time on learning, but what will this learning? What value will this bring to the business? And this is where this disconnection is not always apparent.

And SAP has been here doing rather poor job, making those connections for the customers. They definitely has gotten better compared to like 10 years ago, but it's still really not, not really is their main goal because [00:33:00] they are selling their products to the buyers buyers. Don't talk to developers and developers are just caboose of sale train, and trying to implement whatever management's bought. 

Paul: I'm keeping that one. I like that one. I'm keeping that in my, my expressions pocket. I, what can I do? I'm just the caboose of this train. Well, you know, sorry. 

Jelena: So I think for the real change to happen, that that train needs to be rearranged. The things of the wagons on the train needs to be put maybe in slightly, slightly different order. So yeah, we haven't talking for a while, so I, I like to. To kind of in the place where we can maybe provide some specific suggestions or some specific advice.

Because as, as Dale Carnegie training teaches us, you need to end with some, some action items. Otherwise it's just poof you know, conversation. So for, for myself, Once. So just make suggestions to both develop are sent to SAP. So SAP, I [00:34:00] think in addition to helping customers to connect what you're offering with specific business values, that's definitely something that they need to do better, but in other things, they need to get better at taking feedback from.

In their ecosystem from the buyers, from managers, from developers or falls the levels. And there are ways to do this through some kind of SAP innovation tool. None of them work very well. So it's definitely something that SAP can improve with probably relatively small effort, I think. And for, for developers I want to say, first of all, do not despair because you're not alone with it.

And I, I, I may made up an expression myself and Paul and Michael feel free to borrow it. It takes a village to raise the developers and and, and, and proper in particular. So do not hesitate to find your. Hence, I I'm really sad that SAP has destroyed our, not just the village, but thriving like [00:35:00] country with SAP community, but there are villages out there and you just, you just need to find them and maybe help them to thrive and to maybe build that, builds them up into something new and beautiful.

So, yeah, that's, that's kind of my, my, my message to, to the world. So Michael, I want. I want to go to you and just what, what do you think? What would be your, your message?

Michael: And people should follow. Okay. 

Paul: Love Michael. Yeah. 

Michael: I have no clear message prepared and I'm not in a hurry. I would say everyone has to find a way that fits to him or her. I saw students having a lot of fun with the developer missions on, I don't know what SAP platform it [00:36:00] is, but this missions divided into steps that was very well adopted by the students. For them it was created to say, okay, I do that, that, that day.

For us when you're working a little bit longer in the SAP universe, you say, okay, click, click, click, click, click. Okay. And now I need a little bit more complex example. Perhaps that would be a good idea to have mission slash. Easy missions and then more harder missions divided into steps and you can stop and say, okay, I will do that later.

Perhaps you get a badge. Very wonderful. If you have the badge afterwards That would be for me, it would be a good, good idea. Because we have to make it more attractive for everyone. The whole SAP universe must be very attractive so that we can print new people in and that that we can help people staying in.

The SAP universe, because there are wonderful gardens full of lovely fruits. And so it's very important that people are not tired of, of using [00:37:00] technology. They should have fun. Okay. There are some minutes, every day. You have no fun with technology because it's not working, but. Absolutely normal at the hour always should be a moment.

Work, fun work, having fun. That would be great.

Jelena: I think it's a great, great message. And definitely we, yeah, we need to keep in mind. The kinds of developers that yeah. That work in SAP ecosystem right now. Awesome. He agreed wait message. Michael. He said to do they have one. That was great message. Thank you. Thank you so much for it. Yeah, but both what's what, what do you think what's, what's your mission statement to out, out to the universe? 

Paul: think what, where did one thing where to go is like, cause we we've touched on this a couple times in this discussion, I think is example improvement. Right. And I think maybe one way to maybe one way to source, that would be for SAP to turn, to, to turn up the interrupted listening devices on its custom developer, I'd [00:38:00] farm the, or the, not the platform, the, their division, right. That goes out and does custom dev like bringing in, bringing in examples from what they've done and literally just streamline those into the documentation. Right? Take, take all of those stupid blah, blah, blah, whatever those things are that all those things do. And like literally just put them in the documentation or put somewhere in documentation, like say like here's, here's a real world example of what a real customer need is.

To have an extra field on their order screen to do X, Y, Z. That would be so like, just like just like forklift, all of those from custom dev into documentation and the number of people who would get like amazing things that really told them, like, imagine the rice lifts that you've worked on that were that general shape.

And you go look at an example of almost exactly what that is like, come on. [00:39:00] Amazing. Right. So that that's one thing. The other thing is like two, two people out in the universe, the, the, the nerds out there who are kind of in our seats raise, raise your voices on social media and whatever else. And also share, share your joys and share your sorrows out there and, and just, we need more people to say what is awesome and what sucks.

And I think that will help things get better too. 

Jelena: Yep. Okay. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Jelena: And I think GitHub is actually a great platform for sharing, especially your potential failures, because they've seen let's say sheriff blogs posted and SAP community. And so there are lots of blogs. Even these days posting just really. If I'm on this really crappy code, it's it wasn't even good, like 20 years ago, really.

But these days with everything that we know so far, it's, it's really bad. But when you post it as a blog, it's like, oh, this is [00:40:00] what I recommend doing. Definitely to the three command set, but if you post this on get hubs and everyone can contribute and makes, makes our suggestions to say, Hey, you know, I see what you're doing here.

And there is a better way to do that. So instead of just use, use proper platform for, for what's there, men's mental be helpful for them. So, yeah. Instead of posting here is, you know, here's what I suggest to do. Just say, Hey, this is what I've done with. So, yeah. That's I think that would be great. All right.

So yeah, really excellent suggestions from everyone. So I think we're, yeah, we're at a great point and it was really great conversations that I personally have enjoyed and I hope that yeah, Poland, most importantly, Michael. Yeah, hopefully I hope you guys had fun and yeah. I hope that our listeners and potential viewers also enjoy this conversation and I'm really looking forward to more conversations between between us and future. 

Paul: yeah. Michael, is there anything we can plug for you on this? [00:41:00] Like 

Jelena: Oh yeah. 

Paul: or websites or anything like that? Okay. Okay. Then we won't. 

Jelena: consulting business and you think. 

Paul: If you are unplugged. but yeah. Anyway, let me, let me just say, I really appreciate your time, Michael. Thank you so much. And I think it's gonna gonna make a big help out in the university to just get, to keep having these conversations. So I really appreciate it. Thank you, 

Jelena: Yup.

Paul: Yeah.

Jelena: you, sir.

Michael: Absolutely.

Jelena: right. So thank you, everyone. That was our podcasts on the learning challenges of SAP developers. Thank you everyone. And they hope to hear and see you next time.