Teaching, Learning, and Everything Else: Recent Episodes
Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development
A conversation between Jon Ippolito and Bart Everson on a handy mnemonic to help you remember all the things that could go wrong with artificial intelligence.
Jon Ippolito is an American artist, an educator, a new media scholar and a former curator at the Guggenheim. He studied astrophysics and painting in the early 1980s and then pursued internet art in the 1990s. He's a professor of New Media at the University of Maine, where he teaches classes on programming, online culture, variable media, and viral media, and now, of course, artificial intelligence.
Links for this episode:
- The IMPACT RISK framework
- What Uses More? footprint calculator
- Learning With AI toolkit
- "AI in Education" discussion group
- "Higher Ed discussions of AI" Facebook group
- About Jon: personal site, University of Maine, Wikipedia entry
Transcript:
Bart EversonThis is Bart Everson, and I'm here today with Jon Ippolito. Very excited to have him on the program. Just to tell you a little bit, we'll draw a little bit from the Wikipedia article. He's an American artist, an educator, a new media scholar and a former curator at the Guggenheim. He studied astrophysics and painting in the early 1980s and then pursued internet art in the 1990s. He's a professor of New Media at the University of Maine, where he teaches classes on programming, online culture, variable media, and viral media, and now, of course, artificial intelligence. So welcome to the program, Jon, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you are teaching these days, with regards to AI.
Jon Ippolito
Thanks, Bart, great to be here. So I teach the — well, I think later today we're going to get into the ethics of AI, but I do also teach the mechanics of it, so that gets folded into courses on other topics, for example, in courses on making websites or mobile apps. But in addition, I've collaborated with some colleagues at UMaine, notably Greg Nelson and Troy Schotter of the Computer Science department, in a course where we really tackled AI from the get-go. And this is an Introduction to New Media course which can have different topics in different years. And the last couple years, we have asked students to do eight tasks across the range of new media: animation, games, storytelling, web design — without AI and then with AI. So the whole premise of the class was to investigate how students tackled the difference between these two approaches, what their perception of it was, how we could sort of guide them to get the best possible results out of the AI versions, but also to sort of evaluate what the pros and cons were in each case.
Bart Everson
Awesome. Now that seems like it could be a good approach for anybody who teaches creative process. I wanted to ask you specifically, and kind of the main reason behind inviting you for this interview, was about this IMPACT RISK framework that you've developed, kind of a mnemonic device to help students understand some of the impact and some of the risk behind artificial intelligence, or associated with artificial intelligence. Assuming that our listeners might not know anything about this, can you give us a rundown?
Jon Ippolito
Yeah, so I give a lot of talks, obviously teaching students and so forth, and oftentimes I'll focus on one particular area of AI. So for example, its impact on archives, or how image diffusion models work. And in all these cases, it's tempting to get into the weeds. I like to learn the details of any particular technology and how it impacts a particular field. But what gets lost sometimes in those conversations is people get all excited about the shiny new gadgetry and lose sight of the bigger picture and all the possible downsides. So I was having trouble remembering them, to sort of spout them off at the beginning of a talk, or, you know, help lead students through that. So I decided that the best way to sort of keep them in mind would be to develop an acronym, a mnemonic, that could be used to just sort of rattle off those downsides to remember them and bear them in mind. So IMPACT RISK is the letters I-M-P-A-C-T-R-I-S-K, and each one stands for a different potential problem with AI, right?
So we do hear a lot about the upsides, especially from tech companies and sometimes from journalists. But if you think about the idea of disinformation and political deep fakes, as well as sort of the increasing role of cyber attacks that are custom-written with ChatGPT and the like — that in the acronym falls under I for Infowar, right? So deep fakes is something pretty much everybody's heard about.
One thing we tend less to talk about, but it's also important as a potential downside of AI, is M for Monopoly. So again, there's the first two letters of IMPACT. Monopolies rear their heads in a really dramatic way. We saw that already in social media, where there were like five or six companies that really controlled what we saw from Netflix to Amazon to Google and Apple, but now we're at the point where it's really shrunk down to more or less three players and some sort of side options. You've got Google vying for dominance against the Open AI/Microsoft partnership. You've got Meta originally kind of trying to prevail in the open source domain, and now kind of expanding. You even see an even stronger concentration of power when you get to the AI chip market, where Nvidia is just dominating, right? All the competitors are sort of scrambling for crumbs in that market, and this is due to the massive amount of computation required to compete, train models and deploy them at inference. Those kind of brittle monopolies can stifle entrepreneurship and innovation and lead to other economic issues.
So along with Infowar and Monopoly, every one of the other letters in that acronym spells out other harms: Plagiarism and privacy, Automated labor, Climate impact, Tainted data, Reality distortion, Injustice, Stereotyping, Knockoff experiences. These are all kind of pieces of the AI puzzle, and they're all things that are easy to forget in the hype bubble that surrounds a lot of journalism and conversations about generative AI.
Bart Everson
Yeah, and when you talk about — what I'm struck by, when you mentioned that you were having trouble remembering these things easily, is how many there are! These are ten big downsides, and each one of them encapsulates a lot of things. But you're not adamantly opposing the use of artificial intelligence. I understand you have a kind of more measured view. Would you say that's correct?
Jon Ippolito
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've heard this perspective sometimes described as an "AI realist." Maybe that's sort of a self-serving designator. But I do not fall in the camp that says these things are useless and have no applications. Nor do I fall in the camp that, you know, they are either super-intelligent beings or replacements for human creativity or ethics. So my view is that we need to understand how they work, and in order to understand how they work, we need to try them out. But I've learned that, especially as a teacher, that sometimes students don't listen to what you say. They watch what you do, right? So if you use ChatGPT in the classroom, they will use ChatGPT in the classroom, even if you're showing it, you know, you're demonstrating that it's doing something wrong.
So I need to have some kind of, I felt like I needed to have some kind of foil or sort of backstop to sort of remind people like, okay, I'm gonna show you this, but don't forget this. You know, IMPACT RISK, and I've also created some mechanisms for other teachers to use this in their classrooms. So there's an interactive website, there's a video, there's a quiz, there's a whole sort of lesson plan that you can integrate into many common courseware modules like Brightspace and Blackboard and Moodle and Canvas. So those are all ways I've tried to sort of expand the potential resources that people can kind of turn to if they also, like me, feel it's really hard to remember all of these and convey them to students.
Bart Everson
Great. I'm glad you mentioned that. Of course, we'll put the link in the show notes, but people should know they can go to AI-IMPACT-RISK.com to see this. And the graphic really does make it kind of come alive. I was wondering — and of course, all the other extras that you mentioned. I was wondering if you could speak just a little bit to the creative process that you went through to put this all together.
Jon Ippolito
Yeah, so, you know, in sort of classic form, I try to see what I could do with my own thinking, and it was a struggle to create an acronym that encompassed everything. So I turned to, I think at the time it was GPT-4, and said, like, hey, come up with some kind of acronyms. And we went back and forth quite a ways. I think that the version that I came up with was not exactly one that it had chosen, but it did give me the words that I was looking for. And so I was able to sort of customize the — or I should say, the initials — and I was able to customize the sort of phrasing, and then I wrote the kind of descriptions of the harms in more detail myself. I've been a writer a long time, and I'm kind of fussy about words, so I rarely accept what a chatbot gives me. But in the brainstorming it was actually super helpful.
Bart Everson
All right. And you've got a nice graphic there as well, depicting a classroom scene that's AI-generated, I'm sure.
Jon Ippolito
That's right. So the the the illustration that shows, sort of like school kids at their desks with the giant scary words IMPACT RISK and a sort of desolate landscape out the window that is generated by leonardo.ai, I believe, a stable diffusion model that was one of their earlier models. But all the little infographics and little icons and so forth, you know, I made those by hand — again, because I'm sort of fussy that way.
Bart Everson
Fantastic. Most of our listeners are college educators, and I know a lot of them are struggling to communicate to their students, or even, first of all, to understand artificial intelligence and its capabilities and the impact and the risks, but also, then to share that, communicate that with their students, integrate it in some kind of way with their teaching. And I was particularly, you know, what really prompted me to reach out to you and speak to you was the idea that you've published this as a module that can be imported into an LMS. So, since a lot of our listeners might actually be ready to do something like that, I mean, they might be the actual audience that you're looking for with that, I wonder if you could speak a little bit to what you have in mind with that move.
Jon Ippolito
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not actually a user of traditional courseware. I tend to try to adapt my class's software to whatever the students are likely to use out in the world. And shockingly, you know, basically, a very, very small percentage of the workplace would actually use something like Blackboard. Those tend to be marketed specifically at, you know, high schools and colleges. So we tend to turn to, in my classes, tools like Slack or GitHub, that are more common in environments that the real workplace is going to be using. That said, you know, a lot of educators these days do use tools like Blackboard and Brightspace and Moodle and Canvas. Fortunately, Canvas has a sort of interoperable archive tool that lets you create a file that can be imported into most of the kind of prominent coursewares out there, and it's called an .imscc file. I don't remember offhand what it stands for, but essentially, you can pull it in by importing it into your own course, into your own syllabus, and it will populate the video, the quiz, the website links and so forth automatically. And then you can move them around to the days you want them to be in, or, you know, when and how you want to deliver them to students. So you can think of it as kind of a — trying to think of what the equivalent would be — sort of like if you had an instant coffee or something where you just add water and it sort of like populates a cup of coffee. In this case, it'll sort of like populate a lesson plan in your syllabus. You can find those directly on the site that you mentioned, AI-IMPACT-RISK.com, or you can find them in OER Commons or Canvas Commons. There's a number of other sort of resources that are devoted to shared, open educational resources online, and I've submitted it to those. I also, just for kicks, made a Google Sheet with the quiz text for people who just want to use their own system can just grab the quiz directly from that, and the video is available on YouTube, or it's a standalone MP4. So basically trying to give you a menu of all kinds of different options that you can choose from.
Bart Everson
That is really great. And I should mention for any listeners who might be on our campus, Xavier University of Louisiana, where we use Brightspace, that you did publish for — this is compatible with Brightspace, to be imported into our LMS. It works for that. And, you know, that LMS has pretty much been mandated for all of our faculty to use, whether that would be their first choice or not. And one of the reasons has been the continuity, instructional continuity, because of the occasional hurricane —
Jon Ippolito
Oh my gosh!
Bart Everson
—that comes through. This has happened, and we've experienced that before, and so this is really something that the institution emphasizes. So it's good to know that this kind of content is available, and I've never really seen anyone do something like that, but I'm sure that that's something that our instructors might appreciate.
Jon Ippolito
So I want to give credit where credit is due, Bart, to the group that you and I are part of, the "AI in Education" Google Group, because that's where I saw people creating these kind of Canvas modules that were interoperable. And I was like, oh, I like that idea. So, you know, I kind of investigated how to do that. I would also say that these are all Creative Commons licensed, but they're licensed in the public domain, which means they can be reused without attribution. You don't need to say this came from Jon Ippolito. I've also kind of atomized like all the little graphics that are used in the infographics, the little icons and so forth, are available as individual files, SVG files, so you can just make your own version. You can change the graphic. You can change the acronym. The goal is to just sort of like get educators and students thinking about how to document and share and start conversations about the ethics of generative AI.
Bart Everson
Great, and I hope some of our faculty will do that. I was thinking that if time allowed, and it looks like it certainly does, that we might be able to also talk about another site, kind of similar, that you've developed, called "What Uses More," that is also related to artificial intelligence, but really coming at it from quite a different angle. Can you share that with our listeners?
Jon Ippolito
Yeah, so many of these projects are born from my own frustration, right? You sort of like have this itch and you need to scratch it, and then you share what you created with other people. I was really frustrated trying to investigate one particular aspect of the IMPACT RISK acronym, that is the C for Climate impact. And this is because you can find that the internet seems to be completely polarized about this. People are either, like, it's no big deal: it's nothing compared to other uses, and it's just a tiny, tiny drop of water to generate, you know, lots and lots of LLM text, versus people saying, you know, this is the apocalypse: it's going to degrade the planet faster than any other technology known to, you know, humanity. And when I looked for data to see if, you know, which side is right — they're just talking in different languages. You know, one's comparing, you know, kilowatt hours. And another one is comparing, you know, hamburgers, and other ones comparing joules. And it's like, come on, can you just give me a consistent, you know, measure so I can see what the difference is between the energy and water usage of AI tasks, right? Like writing an email in ChatGPT, or generating an image or a video with, you know, MidJourney or Sora versus, you know, the kind of things we might compare it to, for example, you know, charging your smartphone or doing a regular Google search or even, you know, having a Zoom conversation.
And it took some doing, and there's a lot of missing data that we'd like to have from the companies. The industry is not transparent about this stuff, but eventually, I sort of compiled a list of sources and what I consider the sort of, you know, definitive, or as close as you can get to definitive, measures of the usage of these different tasks. And that's all available. You can go look at it, again, on a Google Sheet that's public, but that now drives an app that you can get to at what-uses-more.com
You can choose an activity like, you know, I'm going to create a video with AI. I've heard that's really energy intensive. Let's see, right? And then you can compare that to like watching Netflix for an hour, or, let's say, charging a cell phone or using a regular Google search and so forth — scrolling TikTok — these kind of digital activities that we take for granted, that we don't really think about as climate busters. And then, it will generate the sort of water and energy usage in what I think of as kind of, you know, lay person's terms, right? Light bulb minutes — you know, you have a standard light bulb, you let it on for a minute. How many light bulb minutes does it take to generate, you know, a video? Well, it turns out it's in the thousands. How many drops of water, right? That's kind of a stem. We can kind of understand drops of water, maybe better than, like, kiloliters or something. And so you then get a little graph where you can say, like, oh, wow, generating a video takes way more energy than say, I don't know, watching Netflix for an hour. But then you start to tweak things, and you say, oh, well, what if the data center that's generating the video is actually in a cold climate versus a warm climate. What about if I'm using a multi-step prompt, or what if I'm using reasoning models, as opposed to just sort of like, you know, one of the sort of dumber, if you will, sort of AI models. And you get into some surprising results there.
My goal isn't really to sort of definitively say, like, this is the amount of water used by writing an email with AI. It's more to get students particularly, but anyone really, to see how different factors change those results. So you can have the same task that's an AI task and a regular digital task, and the AI task will either be higher or lower energy usage dramatically, depending on what those factors are, and that can lead to changes in your own kind of use of those tools.
So just as one example, one of the standard things I add to an AI prompt now is be concise, because I don't know about you, but I've noticed that chatbots have gotten more verbose over time. They can give you more information. They summarize some bullet points afterward, what they already said. Well, you know, if it's using five times as much text to give you an answer, that's five times as many tokens, that's five times the energy input, you might have just asked for the capital of France, and it could have just said one word, Paris, but it's going on about history or, you know, geography, so little tricks like that, like, you know, "be concise," or knowing that you can type "minus AI" (-ai) in a Google search and it won't give you that Google overview. Those are little tips that we can use individually to reduce our carbon footprint when we do use AI if we choose to.
Bart Everson
Thanks. It was such an eye-opener, that part about where is the data center located? Because, as you may know, I live in Louisiana. Louisiana is very hot, and they're fixing to build a data center in our state, that's supposed to be one of the biggest in the world, with three natural gas-fired power plants just to support it. So it's very concerning. Of course, it's not just an AI center. You know, that's what gets all the attention, artificial intelligence, because that's the shiny new object, as you kind of referenced earlier. But it's also, you know, streaming media and social media and all kinds of other stuff going on in the data center.
Jon Ippolito
That's right. So, if you're in a warm climate, then you know roughly, that your data center is using three times the energy, primarily for cooling, than if you're in a cold climate, right? So in Louisiana, the same ChatGPT query to write a memo or create an image is going to be triple the energy and water usage of a data center in Norway, or potentially in Maine, where I live. On the other hand, it also depends where the energy source is coming from. If you're in, you know, you mentioned that you have, was it a gas powered electrical — three new three new gas-powered plants, right? So those aren't as harmful as coal, right, to the environment. If you were in West Virginia, and you're driving your data center with coal, then you're three times the — let's see, I think it's two — then it's two times the energy usage, very roughly — these numbers are rough, so they're orders of magnitude — than say, let's say, if you're using a data center in California, where it's driven by solar. So those are also like, there's local geography, geographic factors.
Now, one thing you mentioned that was really important to me is that people don't realize how small the amount of data center usage right now is consumed by AI. It's roughly 15% in 2024. We don't know what the amount is in 2025 yet. Those figures are expected to climb. But as you mentioned, you know, crunching the algorithm to show you ads on Instagram or, you know, to track your data for Facebook or whatever — that plus crypto is like the other 80%, and that means that we don't realize that in normal activities like scrolling TikTok, we are actually consuming more of the water and electricity used by data centers than by doing an AI query. And that's something that I think is really important, for us to use AI kind of as a lever, especially as educators like, okay, you came here because we wanted to talk about AI's environmental footprint. Good. But also, let's use that to shine a light on the impact of the other digital tools we do, and then expanding beyond that, you know, once you get to like transportation, like driving a car, flying a plane, or eating meat, you know, there are huge, like, several orders of magnitude more impact for those activities. So again, it becomes a kind of like, you know, lever that you can use to sort of push people to pay attention to things that they otherwise might not have.
Bart Everson
Awesome. Thank you so much. This is also interesting. Let's zoom out, if we could, and just look at the big picture. One thing I like to ask people about in this domain is just, very broadly, what's your kind of take on if higher education should now be taking AI competency as kind of a major learning goal, and if so, then, you know, how quickly should we be moving towards that goal?
Jon Ippolito
That's a great question. So as you can tell from my answer your last question, I'm a big believer in incentives, sort of bait and switch approach, where someone might be interested in one topic but use it to steer them to another. I think that the pedagogy of most universities is really stale, and high school is even worse. It's been that way for decades. Professors and administrators don't want to change. They want to keep giving term papers. They want to keep lecturing. And these approaches have been foiled by students in the past in ways that your professors just couldn't see, right? So if, if you could buy, you know, the answers to a problem set on Chegg, or, you know the term paper on EssayPro, most professors, you know, sort of hope that TurnItIn or similar detectors would work, but they really didn't think about, like, what that meant for their own pedagogy.
But now everybody's got ChatGPT on their browser. Not all choose to use it, but you can, and so it's very instantly available to any, you know, literature teacher who's, you know, typed in "write a five page essay on you know, this Flaubert novel," and sort of in 30 seconds had an A+ paper. It's very obvious to them that they can't keep doing things the way they they did. Now a lot of people are ostriches that put their head in their sand. They say, well, we're going to rely on detectors, you know, we're going to do blue book exams. I don't think either of those approaches make sense. And so instead of thinking of this as, like, AI is transforming pedagogy, I think of it as, like, AI is pointing out problems that were already there. We know there's better ways to teach. We know that project-oriented, individualized learning is better than regurgitation. We know that no one outside of academia writes five paragraph essays anymore. There's, you know, writing has become discursive and dialogic, and it's dispersed through all these kind of different social media and work contexts. There's lots of reasons to validate writing as a form of thinking, but — I'm sorry — the five page essay is just not one of them anymore. So, you know, it's a controversial take, but my feeling is this: the disruption that AI is causing, this tidal wave moving through academia, is now forcing us to deal with issues that we really swept under the rug, and the changes that will happen as a consequence are actually good, even if the technology is, you know, it's, it's sort of like not pleasant to be have AI kind of thrust us against the wall and force us at gunpoint to make those changes.
Bart Everson
All right. Well, thank you so much for saying that. I really appreciate where you're coming from, and I hope that a lot of our listeners will find some value in what you're putting out there. I guess that really wraps up everything I thought we needed to touch on. There's so much more that we could get into. And if there's any final, final thoughts that you had burning a way that you wanted to share with our listeners?
Jon Ippolito
No, I would just point people who want to learn more to many of the resources that are out there. I mentioned the Google Group that you and I belong to. There's a Facebook group Laura Dumin runs, I forget what the specific name is, but let's see if I can find it real quick. Because those are places where people can be, you know, very open to just saying, like, look, I'm a complete newbie in this space, and I'm looking for help. I have this kind of syllabus, you know, what works, what doesn't, okay? It's called "Higher Ed discussions of AI writing and use." There's also, you know, LinkedIn turns out to be a surprisingly, I hate the fact, but it turns out to be a surprisingly helpful network, at least for me, to run ideas by other people, so you're not alone. And I would also say what's really encouraging to me is that smaller institutions, these little universities and liberal arts colleges here and there, have really sort of taken the lead in finding interesting ways to confront this challenge, whether they're being, you know, AI positive or negative, you know, the best ones, I think again, being realists. Accepting that it does have powers that we didn't have before, and also accepting the many risks involved. So you're not alone, and there's lots of places online and hopefully at your own university, where other people are running into those same walls. And if they haven't yet, they probably will.
Bart Everson
All right. Thank you so much. That is a great thought to end on. You're not alone, and we will share those links in the show notes for any listeners who want to follow up for more. Thank you, Jon. Jon Ippolito, our guest on the podcast today — it was great having you.
Jon Ippolito
Thanks, Bart.
A conversation between Wendy Gaudin and Bart Everson on writing and publishing.
Wendy A. Gaudin is a historian and writer whose interdisciplinary work centers southern-descended, mixed-heritage, and mixed-race populations and histories. As a mixed-heritage Louisiana Creole of Color whose elders migrated to California in the first half of the twentieth century, Gaudin is deeply moved, shaped, and inspired by her expansive community’s story. She divides her time between New Orleans and Acadiana, and she teaches history at Xavier University of Louisiana.
Links for this episode:
- Sunset Limited: An Autobiography of Creole (LSU Press)
Transcript:
Bart Everson
So I'm Bart Everson, Creative Generalist at the Center for the Advancement of Teaching, and I'm here chatting with Wendy Gaudin, Professor in the History Department here at Xavier University of Louisiana, and I'm holding in my hot little hands a new, freshly autographed edition of Sunset Limited: An Autobiography of Creole, which is Wendy's book. Wendy's first book. So Wendy, thank you. First of all, thank you for the book.
Wendy Gaudin
You're welcome.
BE
And second of all, welcome to the podcast.
WG
Thank you.
BE
And I thought I should mention for anybody who doesn't know what the Sunset Limited is — not only is it the name of your book, but it's also the name of a train, and that train features in the book. And I thought in today's conversation, you know, we'll talk a little bit about the book, but people really should read that to find out about the content. I thought, in keeping with the theme of this podcast, you know, Teaching, Learning, and Everything Else, with our series, that we would focus a little bit more on the process of how you wrote the book, and why, and all these other things. So can you tell us a little bit about the train, and why the book is named after the train, and what that has to do with Creole?
WG
Sure. Well, thank you for having me. The Sunset Limited is a particular route of the Southern Pacific Railroad, and it follows the southern border of the United States. And the Sunset Limited is a route that goes from New Orleans to Los Angeles, and it is a train line that has been talked about in many, many, many people's migration stories. So I guess I would say I first heard about the Sunset Limited train when speaking with family members years ago when I started doing oral histories with my grandparents and a couple of elderly family members, extended family members, and they would say to me, "Oh, we all took the Sunset Limited to California," and it was sort of this romanticized train. But it was indeed the train that brought many people from Los Angeles, from Louisiana to Los Angeles. And so I started hearing about the train years ago, and then at a certain point, my mother shared with me that her father, my maternal grandfather — his name was Augustus Lawrence burns — he was a porter on the train. He worked for the Pullman Company as a porter, and porters were servants on the segregated trains. They served food, they cleaned the sleeping trains. They carried people's dirty laundry to the folks who washed the dirty clothes on the train. They did all kinds of work that porters would do, that servants would do. And so my grandfather worked on the train, and that is a part of my mother's history that she really values and loves. And so when I was writing this book, I grappled with the title, and I came up with a couple of ideas, and the acquisitions editor came up with a couple of ideas, and they all sort of felt a little generic to me. And so at a certain point, I thought, well, why not call it Sunset Limited, because the train — so, because it references, specifically the train, but also this idea of of riding into the sunset, you know. So it sort of has a romantic idea. Moving west is a fraught subject in US history, and for my ancestors and for Creoles of color, it's a different kind of meaning, a different cultural meaning, not necessarily a kind of manifest destiny image, but more of an escape from a racist place that the Deep South was for many people, sort of fleeing a difficult place and going somewhere that's hopeful, that is hopefully free from what plagued people who lived in Louisiana at the time. And so I like the imagery. I liked the train itself. And so many Creoles in Los Angeles will see the title or hear the title and immediately think of their own family's experience. So it has collective meaning as well. And I'll also note that my family moved in the 1930s and the 1940s, so this is prior to the desegregation of interstate train lines that happens after World War II. And so it's an interesting idea that a segregated train carried people from a segregated place to a non-segregated place, a mostly integrated place. So there's some meaning in that as well.
BE
Thank you. It sounds really interesting. I haven't read it yet because I just got my copy, literally just got my copy before we started talking. So I encourage anybody listening to this who finds that interesting — you're just going to have to read it yourself, because certainly we could spend a lot of time talking about the content, but I wanted to talk a little bit more about the process. You know, anytime that I've spoken with people who've written books, a lot of times, they'll say that they felt they had to write a particular book. And you know, it does certainly take a lot of effort to get to this point. I know it's taken you a lot of effort to get to this point. Did you feel like this was something that you had to do, that you had to write this book? Or was it more of an option, like an optional thing that you did just for fun, just for pleasure, if you know what I'm saying. Or is there some kind of blend, and if so, why?
WG
I appreciate that question. So I am a non-tenure track faculty member here at Xavier. There are benefits and there are — whatever the opposite of benefits are — but there are ways in which that frees me up to write books like this and to do other kinds of creative writing. And of course, there are some disadvantages to being non-tenure track. However, I start there because I am not necessarily bound to do scholarly work, to produce scholarly writing. Although non-tenure track faculty write, they do research, they produce artwork. There's just a different kind of expectation, I suppose, so as a non-tenure track faculty member, I have really — once again, I'll use the word grappled. I've really grappled with: What is my role as a scholar? What is my role as an author? What kinds of work can I author? And I feel like my status here at Xavier has made space for me to produce a genre-bending, or an open genre, inclusive book such as this. It is not a dissertation-to-monograph evolution, which is the process that many professors go through. They take their dissertation and revise it into their first book. There are parts of this book that pull from my dissertation, but most of it is original. Some of the interviews from the book were pulled from dissertation era interviews, and so there's a bit of a connection to my dissertation, but it's not a direct connection that you might see in others' work. The book was a request. So, I received a request from the Acquisitions Editor at LSU Press in an introductory email that just said, Hey, Dr Gaudin, we've seen your dissertation referenced in other people's work, and your other writings have also been referenced. And so we're wondering if you'd be interested in writing a book about Creoles. And I was totally surprised, and pleasantly surprised, and so I responded with, I would love to have a conversation about what that entails. And so it turned out to be a positive conversation, and so I wrote a first draft which is nothing like the book that you're holding. It was a very different book. In fact, I feel very strongly that it was not very good. It was a first draft. And first drafts are exploratory. First drafts are an exercise. They could be seen as a practice draft. And so I'm glad I produced it. I learned a lot from it, but it was not the best, or the best thing that I could have done. And the editors realized that, and an anonymous reader said, I know Wendy Gaudin's work, and I think she can do something very different than this, and so I'm so grateful to those people. So I rewrote, I started totally from scratch. Rewrote. That draft was better, still not quite there. And then I rewrote again, and I requested another anonymous reader, so I had two, and they both said, this is where she should be going, in the direction of an auto-ethnography, in the direction of a mixed-genre monograph, because we have so many sort of third person singular histories of Creole people. Wendy has something original to add, and so they really encouraged me in that direction. And then I really knew where I was going with the book. So I did some shifting of chapters. I considered chronologies, I considered adding some material that wasn't anywhere in my dissertation, it wasn't anywhere in my first draft. And then I really felt — it took a little time, but at a certain point, I felt like this book deserves to be written. It deserves to be out in the world. I am saying something original, and I'm adding to other conversations about what it is to be Creole. And so that's when I feel I was compelled to really finish the book and to really write the book that I felt capable of writing, and I felt natural writing, rather than a process to, you know, write a book that I thought maybe this is what LSU wanted me to do, and I was wrong. This is what they really wanted me to produce. So in that way, maybe I felt like, you know, you asked me if I felt like I really had to write the book. I think that I felt compelled when I really knew what I was writing. That's when the energy really lifted and I felt like, yes, this is what I was meant to do.
BE
Fantastic. I appreciate you getting into that and really kind of exploring some of the process and the publishing aspects as well. One of the things, of course, we're sitting here in the conference room of the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development here at Xavier. And one thing that we've tried to do in recent years has been to support this Xavier University Writing Group for faculty, which Elizabeth Manley started, and you've participated in that as well, and I believe some of the writing for this book may have taken place during those sessions. Can you explain just a little bit about how that factored in, or what the — because it sounds like, on paper, it sounds like just such a simple concept: we're going to give faculty, you know, a chance to sit and write. Can you explain how that helped you, how you think maybe it helps faculty? Maybe there's, you know, some listeners who might have heard about that on our own campus, or maybe they're at another campus and they're thinking about doing some kind of initiative like that. Can you speak to that a little bit?
WG
I certainly can. The faculty writing group has supported me for years. I've been a member of the faculty writing group. I don't know, I shouldn't say member. I have joined the — I have been a participant in the writing group for many semesters, probably at least five or six years now. And the space and the time —
BE
Just clarify for anybody who doesn't know, this isn't a group where people read each other's texts, or give feedback, necessarily, to each other at all. You just come in and write.
WG
Yes, yes. Thank you. We meet once a week, and we sit in a large room together, and sometimes we put our headphones on, and we really disconnect and just sit there. And sometimes, some of us are reading, some of us are hand editing our work. Some of us are actively engaged in fresh, new writing, original writing. Some of us are revising on our laptops. Lunch is provided, and some people join us on Zoom, so they're on the screen as well. And I would say that one of the benefits is the obligation. You know, it's on my schedule every Monday, and knowing that there will be other people in the room who are also engaged in writing, revising, editing — they're all in some part of that process. And it's like a silent support. It's sort of like sitting meditation in a meditation hall. You know, you're all sitting on the cushion facing the wall. We're not talking to each other, but we know everyone is here holding the space, and that we are all engaged in a similar commitment to whatever this practice happens to be. So knowing that you know someone is working on a chemistry article. Someone is revising their first book, like me. Someone is finishing their dissertation, knowing that we're all working on this is a supportive environment. It's really helpful. I have absolutely written parts of this book in writing group. I have written proposals for fellowships, research fellowships in writing group. I have written residency proposals, and I have been awarded some of those residencies in writing group. Every semester, at the beginning of the semester, I am waiting for the invitation to send your proposals in. I might be the first proposal every semester. I'm just waiting to put my my name in there, because I think it is so important, as professors who work at an institution that expects us to teach a four/four load. Some of us are teaching overloads. Some of us are also teaching labs or Art, they're not labs, but studio time. We are also serving on more than one committee, most of us, because we're a small campus, and so there are only so many faculty, and so our time is really stretched thin. So, to have that committed time to write is so important. In fact, I wish that we had a writer in residency kind of program here at Xavier, because I think that would really encourage people to devote their time, and it would encourage the university to see that if you expect a scholarly output, you must support time to produce. That it takes time to sit and think, it takes time to experiment, to fail, to write multiple drafts, to figure out what works, and that doesn't happen in two and a half months over summer break. We need more time to do that. So I will say that the first unpublished draft of this book was written between 2019 and 2020, my publication date was March 2025, so it took between five and six years for me to produce a finished, publishable draft.
BE
And you really got to love the subject matter, I feel like, in order to stick with something that long and not give up.
WG
You know, I like that you said, "love the subject matter." I think that loving the subject matter, being somehow invested in the subject matter, is important, whether that is a subject that you've been researching for 20 years, or if it is a subject that speaks to your experience or your ancestors' or your family's experience, or your community's experience, that's also important. If you are a scientist and you run a lab and you are committed to your lab and the research and writing that comes out of that lab, I think that as scholars, there is maybe an expectation of a certain distance from the work that we do, and as an historian who works so much on family history, which is a scholarly subject — you know, I'm not just writing my family's genealogy, but it is an academic subject under the the discipline of social history — I think that it's also okay for some of us to be invested in the work we do in different kinds of ways, that we are engaged in inquiry, scholarly inquiry, that is sometimes informed by other layers and other levels of commitment to our subject matter. And so for me, I am a California creole. So I'm a product of a migration. I am a product of an ethnic group that engaged in a kind of redefinition based on that migration. And I have a PhD in history. My subject matter is race, racial mixture, the Deep South, the American South, and so many of those things sort of collided in this story. I'm not just writing about myself. I'm writing about a population. I am a member of a population, and all of us are members of populations, and so to write about that population asks me to be invested, but also to be curious and to inquire in ways that reflect my background and in ways that contradict my background.
BE
Well, Wendy, there's something you just said that reminded me of the fact — I know you pretty well. We've been friends for a while, and I know that you are a longtime contemplative practitioner, and I'm wondering how that factored into your your process. If it did, I can only assume that it might have.
WG
Gosh, okay, so I can say a couple of things about that. One is that my meditation practice supports me in all kinds of ways, and one is that I thrive in quiet. I feel energized by stillness, which sounds a little bit contradictory, but the process of sitting, thinking through a chapter, or thinking through part of the book, it takes time, and taking that time, rather than sort of the frantic energy of, oh, I have to do this, and I have to complete this — that really helped me. It sounds like well, then I could just sort of take my time and leisurely write this book. But there's a middle ground between a sort of frantic productivity for production's sake, and the other side of that is sort of languishing and taking my time writing the book. There's a middle ground that I find myself working in. And I think my meditation practice supports that middle ground. Also, the quiet of writing, whether that is with writing group, whether that's at my dining room table, whether that's with a writing partner or in residency, I have felt really supported by the stillness of the writing practice, and I will also say that my practice reminds me of impermanence, and so anytime I was producing a version of a chapter or a draft of the whole thing, I didn't necessarily feel bound to this version. I knew that this is all a process, and I felt informed by impermanence. So if I produce a chapter, and I feel like, okay, I've produced a chapter, I wasn't feeling like, wedded to this version of this chapter, and so it's finished and it's done, and it's over. No. This is the draft that I produced. Someone else reads it. It might have been you. It might have been my writing partner, Arden Eli Hill, who's a poet. It may have been another friend that I asked to take a look at it. It may have been the editor. So I get it back with all kinds of comments and feedback and corrections and praise or criticism. And instead of being plagued by, oh my gosh, I produced something, and it wasn't good enough, or it's not complete, I see it as part of a process. So now that the book is finished, it's interesting, because it may also make me think, well, this is done, and in some ways it is done, and in other ways it might be edited again. If I'm fortunate, maybe there will be a second edition. Now I'm talking about the book and revisiting the book. That's part of the process as well, and the book has — my feeling is the book has produced questions and other inquiries that I can follow through on in future projects, perhaps my second book. So it's sort of part of a body, a body of literature or a body of writing, that is part of my life. And so I'm not sure if that's making sense, but it feels like it makes sense to me, that that my meditation practice has informed me, that what I do is part of a sort of flowing life, and it changes, it grows, and this book is just sort of part of that.
BE
Yes, those make sense. Makes a lot of sense. Ad you hinted there at something else that I wanted to ask about. You know, this series began with a focus, kind of exclusively on teaching, and we've broadened, as our mission broadened here some years ago at the Center to support faculty in all aspects of their professional and even personal lives, to an extent, including research, including writing and publishing and these things. But in particular, returning to that idea of teaching, I'm curious to know how the process and even the finished product has has interacted with your teaching, or has it?
WG
I would say that teaching race, especially, a couple of classes. One is Race in the Americas. The other one is a new course that I developed called Mixed Race America. Teaching those two classes has helped inform the book, and it has, you know, sparked my curiosity in terms of always learning and always growing, regarding my education about race and mixed race especially. And then I also teach a course called Creole Louisiana. I haven't taught it in maybe three years, something like that, and I'm hoping to teach it again next year, actually, as a broader course, which would be a look at Creole in the Americas, rather than just Louisiana, because Creole is not just a reference to Louisiana. Creole has so many meanings. So my teaching of those subject matters has, I think, connected to the book. Yeah, yeah. I think that's an answer to the question.
BE
It is a very good answer to the question. And there's one thing, though — I think we've neglected perhaps the most important part. What about this amazing photo of the author that's on the back of the dust cover here. Wow, that's really something.
WG
Well, you took the photo.
BE
I remember now. Thank you for jogging my memory.
WG
Under the trees and with the limestone background. It was taken here at Xavier. We were standing behind the convent, the old convent building, and we have this limestone background. And we took several photos, and that's the one that I chose. What did you want me to say about it?
BE
Indiana limestone, so I felt right at home.
WG
Oh, yes, Indiana limestone.
BE
Well, thank you so much for speaking with me. Is there anything that I forgot to ask about that you really was hoping I would or is there anything that we've — any stone that we've left unturned? I'm sure there's so much more to say. I mean, you've written several hundred pages about it.
WG
Well, I would like to say that the cover art — I was so pleased with the the designers at LSU Press. I think they did a beautiful job with an idea that I came to the press with. I asked them to incorporate a couple of things. One is an image of my grandmother. Her name was Marietta Roussell, and there's a photograph of her sitting in front of a house here in New Orleans with an umbrella over her head. It was taken around 1928, 1929, before she left on the train. And I thought that the image was really a beautiful image, so I asked them to use the image. And then I was thinking about the colors of the sunset. And then finally, I asked them to find a way to incorporate a map that traces the Sunset Limited train route from New Orleans on the front cover all the way to California on the back cover. And so if you open the book and look at it flat, you can see the route that folks took, and all of the stops along the way. And I'm really so pleased with the designers. I think they came up with a really beautiful cover.
BE
They certainly did. Well, that's a great way to wrap it up, so to speak. Thank you so much. I've been speaking with Wendy Gaudin. I've known her for well over a decade, two decades, whatever it has been, and I'm only just learning how I've been mispronouncing your last name this entire time.
WG
Well, I will say, growing up in California, I also mispronounced my last name, and when I came to New Orleans, I was corrected by people here. They told me, you're not even pronouncing your last name, right. So I had to learn too.
BE
If you go north, you'll find people that pronounce my last name, Everson. So that's a whole story too. All right. Well, thank you so much, Wendy Gaudin. The book, again, is Sunset Limited. It's LSU Press, 2025.
WG
Thank you.
A conversation between Maggie Fernandes, Megan McIntyre, Jennifer Sano-Franchini, and Jay Todd on refusing generative AI in writing studies.
as if to suggest they REFUSED to have their photo takenMaggie Fernandes (she/her) is an Assistant Professor of Rhetoric and Composition at the University of Arkansas.
Megan McIntyre (she/her) is an Assistant Professor of Rhetoric and Composition and Director of the Program in Rhetoric and Composition at the University of Arkansas.
Jennifer Sano-Franchini (she/her) is the Gaziano Family Legacy Professor and an Associate Professor of English at West Virginia University.
Links for this episode:
- Refusing Generative AI in Writing Studies
- Everyone’s Writing With AI (Except Me!) (podcast)
Transcript:
Note: This transcript was generated by AI; it has been proofread (by a human) lightly but may still contain errors.
Jay Todd
Welcome to Teaching, Learning, and Everything Else where we explore issues in the realm of higher education. My name is Jason Todd, and I am the director of the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development and Kellogg Professor of Teaching at Xavier University of Louisiana. In this episode, we explore the thought provoking refusing generative AI in writing studies manifesto with its authors, Jennifer Sano, Franchini, Megan McIntyre and Maggie Fernandez as generative AI tools like chat GPT become increasingly embedded in higher education. The authors challenge the assumption that adoption is inevitable or beneficial. They argue for a critical, principled refusal, one that recognizes the power dynamics, labor implications, environmental costs and potential erosion of linguistic diversity that come with these technologies, far from being a reactionary rejection of innovation, their stance is rooted in the long standing values of writing, studies, fostering critical thinking, ethical engagement and student agency. Whether you're an educator grappling with AI policies, a writer concerned about the future of language or simply curious about how technology shapes the way we communicate, this conversation is essential listening. Stay tuned as we unpack the complexities of generative AI in writing classrooms and why refusal might be a more nuanced and strategic response than we think.
And so we've got we've got the the authors of the Refusing Gen AI in Writing Studies, and we really just wanted to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on this, and to pose some questions for you all in terms of how some of our faculty in particular might think about some of the ideas that you've expressed here. So if I could start with kind of a maybe kind of a basic question, but I think one that actually a lot of people have asked me when I've kind of mentioned that I was going to be doing this interview, which is, could you explain really what refusal means in the context of generative AI, especially in the realm of writing studies.
Megan McIntyre
My name is Megan McIntyre. I'm the director of the program in rhetoric composition at the University of Arkansas, and my research focuses on equitable writing classrooms and pedagogies and programs as well as digital technologies. So I think that's a question we sort of came together on. One of the reasons we started chatting with each other was, I think trying to answer that question for ourselves. For me, it's about being really well-informed about what these products and technologies are and do and the consequences for language diversity and the environment, and then having the option and making an intentional choice for me about not using them based on all of the things I know, about their impact on linguistic justice, their impact on language diversity, their impact on the environment, and their impact potentially on critical thinking and learning, which, as a writing program administrator, is something I'm really invested in, right? I think writing programs really are about, yes, developing writing skills and processes, but they're also about developing thinking skills and processes. And I worry about the ways that these products are coming between students and the thinking work as well as the writing work that I so badly want for them, because I think it helps them grow as thinkers, as learners, as — you know — cognizant citizens in the world.
Jennifer Sano-Franchini
I'm Jennifer Sano-Franchini. I'm an associate professor at West Virginia University, and my research and teaching interests are in the intersections of cultural and digital rhetorics, Asian American rhetoric and technical communication. Just to add to that, for me, I think of refusal as the kind of like multiple ways that people choose to question and resist the marketing rhetoric and marketing claims about generative AI and choose to ask questions about, like, what kinds of support for these claims do we have? And as as a result of that understanding, oftentimes, making the intentional choice to not use these products when they have the option to do so, whether it's in their teaching, research and service. For me personally, it doesn't necessarily mean trying to control other people's behavior as much as we want to, you know, raise awareness and have people be more informed about these things. So I think that that's something that is important to highlight. But also, you know, the point that I make is it can mean a lot of different things, but at its core, it's asking these kinds of critical questions about the claims that are being made about these products.
Maggie Fernandez
And I'm Maggie Fernandez. I'm an assistant professor at the University of Arkansas, and my interests, my teaching and research interests, are in digital and cultural rhetorics with focuses on generative AI and social media. And I also see that refusal asks us to slow down and to take a minute. Because, you know, when these technologies became really publicly available, it was a lot of panic and hype, and I see both of those orientations to it as basically doing the same thing, which is looking to the future of these technologies and making a lot of assumptions when we have time to make choices, and we make better choices when we take our time, so not redesigning courses based on speculation, not centering a lot of policing approaches to it. Like Jen was just saying, I'm not really that interested in controlling other people's behavior. I want to talk about, what does it mean to think about these tools as they are right now and how they are affecting a number of different things. And we can have better conversations when we talk, when we talk about concrete things that we know, which is the present.
Jay Todd
And you all talk in this about, I think you call it the Doom/Hype fallacy, or scenario of it's either going to ruin everything or it's going to be the cure for everything. Is that a fair definition?
Maggie Fernandez
Yeah, and that line of thinking comes from people like Timnit Gebru, who's been leading the conversation on algorithmic ethics and the ethics of artificial intelligence for a long time. And the point that she really makes about that is both of those orientations benefit Big Tech, and they don't tell us a whole lot about what we do now. And it it kind of serves to — my cat is making this crazy noise. [beats cat senseless] Essentially, it keeps us kind of distracted and thinking about inevitability of these tools instead of what we actually can talk about, which are the unethical ways that they're made, how we can interact with them, what questions we need to be asking, and all that.
Jay Todd
That's great.
Jennifer Sano-Franchini
I was just gonna add that I think a critical point in relation to that is that doom is — we understand it, or I understand it as those types of speculative like, oh my gosh, it's going to take over, it's going to ruin the world. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we can't identify the current harms of these products. I don't think that's doom. I think that that's, you know, talking about reality and what we see happening right now. So I think that's a distinction maybe to be made in the conversation.
Megan McIntyre
Yeah, I think anything that leans into the inevitability discourses, whether those inevitabilities are really positive. It's general intelligence, right? And it's going to revolutionize X, Y or Z, or it's going to take over and ruin, you know, A, B and C, either one of those are really serving an inevitability. And as Maggie said, that sort of future looking and speculation really only serves to further embed the products themselves in at the center of the conversation. And for me, the center of the conversation is not the technology. Like, you know, I've been in the discipline for a bit, and I have read all of the amazing things in Computers and Composition. And, you know, we have written a lot about technology in the discipline, but the ways we write about technology are about centering students or centering rhetorical choices and goals, or centering purposes or audience. It's not about centering the technology. And I think the hype and the doom require us to continually recenter the technology itself and the companies that are selling them to us. And I think that's the mistake that I don't want to make. I want to keep human beings, students and teachers, at the center of the conversation. And to the extent that refusal lets me do that, that's one of the reasons it's the position I've taken, because it feels like a way to re-center people, and that is the most important thing for me.
Jay Todd
I mean, to tie it together, I mean, when we talk about refusing AI, you know, is it maybe correct to say that we're really talking about having the right to refuse AI? And then I guess, could you talk a little bit about — I know this is kind of directed towards faculty, writing instructors in particular — that right extends also to students too. And I think you all talk a little bit, quite a bit, actually, about how that needs to be considered in the classroom as well.
Maggie Fernandez
I think we have, like — I think there's really totalizing conversations about student interests in these technologies. And to be sure, there's probably, like, more familiarity than I would like, you know, maybe students are experimenting with these things more than I, as someone who doesn't want to play around with them, would like them to. But at the end of the day, I think there's a lot of over assuming how much students are already, or are interested in, using these tools. And so for me, it becomes a question of, can we slow down and not embed interest, embed orientations into how we're presenting them, to presenting these technologies to students and creating options and creating a space to talk about them as if we're not farther down the line than we are, and oh my gosh, I may have forgotten where we were going, I'm sorry!
Megan McIntyre
To add to what Maggie is saying, I think for me, refusal is at its heart, like a reclaiming of my own agency in the conversation and a re-centering of students' agency. I believe I still have choices, and I believe students still have choices, and I think to the extent that inevitability discourses do a lot of things that we've already talked about, one of the things they do is they presume to know what choices have to be made and what choices are already foreclosed to us. And I just — that's not my experience in the classroom. I'm teaching first year tech comm to engineers this semester, and I have computer engineers in my class. This has not taken over their life in the ways I think has been sometimes projected on to students. They're having really thoughtful conversations about what it means to be in college right now, you know, a little over two years, post-ChatGPT public drop, and those conversations are nuanced and they're thoughtful, and they're broad and they're varied, and they're all making choices. And so I think, if anything, in addition to that slowing down, it's the recognition that we still have choices to make. We are not inevitably in any single place, I think, and students should have choices too, and I think that's also the heart of it.
Jennifer Sano-Franchini
For me, yeah, I think that you really hit the nail on the head when you said it really is about the right to refuse, whether for faculty or for students. For me, I am really uncomfortable with the practice of requiring students to sign up for these types of products, especially assuming that they are, like, these Big Tech commercial products. So like for me, it's the decision to not ever require students to do that and to make, well, I guess, since I don't require, but, like, you know, just like making sure that option is there, but also, I guess — I hesitate to say, so I just want to cut myself off there.
Jay Todd
That's good. You all talk about refusing generative AI in writing programs, which is your areas of expertise. Does this translate over into other disciplines? Can that idea of refusal really just map into mathematics, history, biochemistry?
Maggie Fernandez
I can't speak to other areas and disciplines and how, what their classrooms look like, but I think what you said about the right to refuse, whether as a student or instructor, I think that applies across the board, and in the same way that I think that — just because there are still things to learn and practice and value without generative AI that I think, probably, you know, I teach a lot of rhetorical awareness. I think that probably my students, when we talk about rhetorical awareness and we talk about context and authorship and audience, I think that those things probably could help them be better users of these technologies, even if we're not using them in my class, like if, just because I'm not training them to do that. And I think that, I think that probably applies across disciplines that sustained thinking and practice in an area will only make people better critical thinkers and better critical users of technology. And so I think that what refusal looks like in other areas will be dependent on what those areas and disciplines are doing. But I generally think that probably there — I think it's good for people to start from the idea of refusal, if refusal is a way to think about harms and to think about what, how do these technologies, products, these companies, how do they impact what we do and maybe work against our interests? I think if we start from refusal, we can think very clearly about, okay, so what is every step to adopting look like? I think that's probably useful across a range of discussions.
Megan McIntyre
I think it also asks us to recenter like whatever the goals of your classroom, program discipline are, again, like de-centering the technology and re-centering whatever it is that you're aiming at. And so, like, I don't know other disciplines, but I have to believe that the technology is not the center of mathematics education, that there is something at the center of that, that the discipline and the teachers in the classroom have goals and desires for students to understand and to participate in particular discourses about, and to the extent that refusal helps them keep their students or their goals at the center, that I think, is one of the things that I — when I'm in these conversations, you know, with people outside of that comp [?], that's what I'm saying, is like, I'm genuinely, like, everybody has already said I'm not here to make decisions for other people. I'm here to make sure everybody knows they're still making decisions. Like, that's the question I'm asking, and that's what I'm trying to put forward, is you're making a choice. What choice do you want to make?
Jennifer Sano-Franchini
I was just going to say as well, building on that, and what Maggie was saying about kind of like beginning with refusal, is that it makes me think about how that stance or that orientation is kind of subversive in a time when we're in a culture of, like, automatic opt-in with a lot of technologies, and so it is, like really kind of asking us to question, like, the way that we're oriented in relation to technologies, and what kinds of agency can we reclaim in the face of them, as well as in the face of the rhetorics about them, the claims that are made about them. But to kind of, like build on the question of how this might be applicable to other disciplines. I totally agree that there are many different types of products that may be used or that may be used in different ways, in different disciplines, but some things that I think hold true are the things like slowing down, questioning the rhetorics, the marketing claims about the products that we use, and thinking meaningfully about the negative, the harmful implications and impacts of these technologies before making these intentional choices. I think that that's something that people across disciplines can and should do.
Jay Todd
And kind of speaking about, kind of looping together some of these responses I'd be curious to hear — and this is kind of partially kind of selfish, because I found out this week that I've been asked to chair a committee to put together a policy on generative AI for our school. So I'm curious to hear either — I'll ask two questions, depending on what you all are comfortable talking about. Do your schools have policies about generative AI that you see kind of allowing for this idea of refusal. And what can other schools who are maybe still figuring out their policies, what can they do and what should they say in those policies to make space for this approach.
Jennifer Sano-Franchini
I was really interested to see that at West Virginia University, we do have a policy on use of generative AI for administrative purposes. This is something that I just found. I don't remember how I found it, but I don't feel like it was sent to me, but I found it really interesting, because I felt like it makes some really good points about when it may or may not be appropriate to use these technologies. So it says things like, administrators should not use generative AI for communications that involve personally identifiable information, for situations where the authenticity and originality of the communication is really important, for situations that require empathy and deep understanding. So those types of factors I think are important to consider, I don't, you know, I don't think it takes a wholesale refusal approach, but I do think that it does ask folks to think carefully about the kind of ethical consequences of how and when we use these things.
Megan McIntyre
Yeah, so we — there are some resources, the Faculty Center has some resources on policies for the university, but there's no university-wide policies that have been communicated out to the faculty. Programmatically, we have policies. So Maggie and I work together to create some syllabus language and some direction with a sort of, "don't use it" framework on the one hand, or a "you can use it in limited circumstances that I will articulate" to" framework, and then the faculty member has to, or a TA has to, sort of write out where they find it acceptable to use, students have to cite it, and the faculty is responsible for talking about some of the present harms. And we sort of gave them a list of resources and things they could teach with, but they have to devote time to it in their class and sort of really grappling with it so students can make more informed choices. What felt more important to me, though, than those policies for students was we have a policy for instructors. So when we first wrote that policy, there was no — the university hadn't purchased an AI detector yet. So at the beginning of this academic year, they purchased TurnItIn's AI capabilities. We switched from SafeAssign to TurnItIn, but when we first wrote the policy, we didn't have that. And so my big concern as a WPA was I don't want faculty feeding student work into these tools. Not only do I think that's a FERPA violation, I don't think that's ethical. Like our job as writing instructors is to give detailed feedback to students, and to the extent that we do that, we do it. And to the extent we don't do it, or let something else do it, we aren't doing what I think we are there to do. So yeah, that policy was more important to me, so that's what I would encourage other people to think about like, what are your guidelines for yourself as an instructor or a, you know, graduate assistant, or whatever your role is, and then, if you're a WPA or a program, you know, in a program situation, how are you helping people find ethical, you know, boundaries around their own use of it before we are sort of jumping straight to what students responsibilities are. What standard are we holding ourselves to around these products — aeems as important a question, or maybe a more important question, from my perspective, than what boundaries are we asking students to stay within?
Maggie Fernandez
The other thing I will add, I really agree with all that's been said so far — the only thing that the University of Arkansas has said so far about AI, is that they have updated the academic integrity policy to account for — which I was I was pleased with this. It basically says, it's academic integrity, you need to follow the policy of the instructor, which I think is about as — I was worried that it would go too far in one direction, either way, and so I think that is a good foundation, because it centers instructor choices to either refuse or adopt. But the thing to be mindful about with that is that means that students are navigating a lot of different, varied rules on it, and maybe give being given, you know, mixed messages about what they're interacting with. And so if I was going to make a more robust policy about it, that would kind of eliminate that, I would be worried about what that would do, because it seems like that would skew toward adoption, probably. But I would also want to see some things that are really clarifying what is counting as AI. A lot of students don't think about Grammarly as being part of AI. And some universities have, like, identified, like, okay, Grammarly is against our policy that's now using Grammarly is an academic integrity in violation. And, you know, academic integrity is, like a whole big conversation, but I think, like, as, like, we're making more specific policies, those are the kinds of things that I would want to know. What counts is a question that my students would probably have and that I have. How much is citation required? Is transparency the standard? And then the then the question for me becomes, how do we even enforce that? Which is why, although in my individual classroom, I discourage use and talk about refusal, I'm not really taking a whole lot of efforts to center catching people or correcting people. I teach them how to cite it, and I say I'd rather you didn't, because getting too far down that path, it becomes the whole conversation. And I don't know that that's what I want to focus on.
Jay Todd
That's great. Thank you. I guess just one last question to kind of wrap things up. Do you have plans going forward with the resources you've got online, and we'll share links to all those in our show notes. AI is a constantly, so far, evolving kind of thing. Do you see your work about refusal having to constantly evolve going forward as well?
Megan McIntyre
I mean, I think it will. I also think we have really tried to take the tack of asking a lot of questions, and I think those questions remain useful even as particular technologies or products evolve and change. And also, I think we've sort of recognized in various places, in these resources, that people have different kinds of agency in different circumstances. And that's also going to keep changing. I am now at the University of Arkansas, but I spent four years at a CSU, at a California State University campus, and CSU just announced a partnership to bring generative AI products into every single campus with licenses for every single student and faculty member. And I suspect, having chatted with some of my former colleagues in the CSU, that that is going to make the questions and the pressures different than it was before they had these official partnerships with OpenAI, Google, Microsoft, you know, and various other players on the Gen AI market and so and also, like resistance, refusal, probably looks different too. The union is involved now because it is obviously there are — one of the harms has to do with labor, which is something that people have been talking about for a long time, including Gebru, but also the SAG-AFTRA strikes, right, centered these sorts of questions too. So I think that that part's evolving, but I do think our question-based orientation is probably going to make some of these things useful, even as the evolution changes. Evolution happens and changes happen, because I think some of these questions. Really are about what you value, what you center, what you choose, and those questions, I think, persist.
Jennifer Sano-Franchini
I agree with that, and I was thinking that that applies to the 10th premise that we offer in our Quick Start Guide, where it is about weighing out what is happening? What are efforts in place to address the harms that at least currently exist with generative AI, and then being able to, you know, adjust your choice accordingly. And I think that those, that kind of like orientation, probably is applicable even, you know, with other technologies. One thing that I think of with regard to these conversations is this kind of ethic and technical communication, where there is this idea that it's not necessarily the best approach to really center particular products, because in ten, fifteen years, those products are going to be completely different. There's no way to really accurately predict what skills or what products students are going to use in their future careers, and so we need to think about what are the kind of core skills that they need to help them adapt as technologies change and be able to assess and critically analyze those technologies. And I think that that orientation is one that informs the way that we approach the refusal website.
Jay Todd
I think that's great. And you all stress quite a bit, the need for, I think you call it critical digital literacy, as opposed to some sort of much more focused AI literacy.
Megan McIntyre
And I think that's — I was gonna say, I think that's really in line as Jen was saying, right, with a disciplinary orientation toward technology, in tech comm, in Computers and Composition, dating all the way back to the sort of founding of the discipline. And I think a lot now about Walter Ong's work all over again, right? "Writing is a technology that restructures thought." You know, that is a useful place for me to go back to, because writing itself is a technology. And the questions we ask about technologies are in some ways perennial. They shift and they get complicated and they get nuanced and all of these things. But, you know, there are questions, and I don't think centering the technology, as Jen's saying, is productive. I think centering rhetorical awarenesses, audience awarenesses, value systems and cultural values that are embedded in these systems, relationships to power — those are sort of evergreen questions, and don't necessarily ask us to focus exclusively on one technology or product or another, but let us sort of understand the ecosystem of technologies that we participate in when we do writing work or rhetorical work?
Maggie Fernandez
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I also think that the value of refusal isn't — what's been useful for me in thinking about refusal of Gen AI is that it's helped me to take a moment, take a beat, and turn those questions back on other technologies that have become so embedded in my daily life, including things like Zoom, which we write about in the premises where, if I have questions about the kind of resource usage of Gen AI, what other like digital technologies am I interacting with, and how can I be more sustainable in how I use them? And I think that that's like, kind of, I think, a beautiful and, like, optimistic part of refusal for me. Refusal doesn't sound very optimistic, but I think that it, it can be a challenge to be more critical about Big Tech more broadly, and how we use them in our everyday lives.
Jay Todd
That's great. I think that's a great point for us to end on. So I want to thank you all Jen, Maggie and Megan, for your time today. And like I said, we will provide links to all your resources in our show notes and encourage folks to spend some more time learning about your ideas.
I've been speaking today with the authors of Refusing Generative AI in Writing Studies. Jennifer Sano-Franchini is the Gaziano Family Legacy Professor and an Associate Professor of English at West Virginia University. She currently serves as Chair of the Conference on College Composition and Communication and is a member of the MLA Rhetoric, Composition, and Writing Studies (RCWS) History and Theory of Rhetoric Forum Executive Committee. Megan McIntyre is an Assistant Professor of Rhetoric and Composition and Director of the Program in Rhetoric and Composition at the University of Arkansas. She is the creator and host of the Everyone’s Writing With AI (Except Me!) podcast with Maggie Fernandes. Maggie Fernandes is an Assistant Professor of Rhetoric and Composition at the University of Arkansas. Her work has been published in Composition Studies, Enculturation, Kairos, and Reflections: A Journal of Community-Engaged Writing and Rhetoric. Please see the show notes for this episode for links and further information. Thanks for listening.
A conversation between Harsh Kumar and Bart Everson on creativity and artificial intelligence.
Harsh Kumar is a fourth-year PhD student in the Department of Computer Science at the University of Toronto. His research focuses on developing algorithms and systems for social good, particularly in cognition, mental health, and education. Recent experiments have focused on problems related to AI and education.
Links for this episode:
- Kumar, H., Vincentius, J., Jordan, E., & Anderson, A. (2024). Human Creativity in the Age of LLMs: Randomized Experiments on Divergent and Convergent Thinking (arXiv:2410.03703). arXiv. https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.2410.03703
- One of the popular TikToks on the above paper
- The math education paper mentioned during our talk
- Another paper on guiding students to use LLMs, which educators might find useful
Transcript:
Bart Everson
I'm Bart Everson, your host for this episode of Teaching, Learning, and Everything Else. I'm delighted to be with Harsh Kumar today. Just let me introduce him real quickly. He's a fourth-year PhD student in the Department of Computer Science at the University of Toronto, and his research focuses on developing algorithms and systems for social good, particularly in cognition, mental health, and education, and some of his current work caught my attention because it focused on an issue that's near and dear to my heart, which is creativity. So we saw this paper. "Human Creativity in the Age of LLMs," which, as you may know, that's artificial intelligence, Large Language Models. And I just wanted to ask you, Harsh — well, first of all, thanks for joining us. What prompted you to do research in this particular area, the impact of large language models on human creativity?
Harsh Kumar
Thanks, Bart, for the introduction. I think just to start us off, I think the inspiration for this came just from my own use of these models, like ChatGPT and like other large language models, tools. Like I was realizing that it was allowing me to do a lot of things very fast compared to before, but it felt like it was also changing the way I was doing these things on my own when I didn't have these tools later on. Like, let's say, if it's about brainstorming, like, I realized I would be able to come up with ideas very well with ChatGPT, but I felt like I wasn't able to do that as well as before with other humans, like, when I didn't have this experience with ChatGPT. And I felt like people around me were having similar experiences. And this is not new. It has been there with spell-checkers, with calculators and other tools that came out. But it just felt like with tools like large language models, they are much more general than anything that we have had before. And it felt like it was important to understand, like, what are the impacts they are having on the way we do these things in a world where these tools didn't exist? What we found was like, a lot of the work within computer science, human computer interaction, AI, was mostly focusing on making the model very good at creative tasks without accounting for, like, what effect it is leaving on the users who are using this. So that's where we started thinking about, like, can we design, in a very controlled setting, a way to measure these kinds of effects?
Bart Everson
Yeah, that's so interesting. And your research focused on the impact of these large language models on two key aspects of creativity, divergent and convergent thinking. Those are things I've heard of certainly, but you know, some of our listeners might not know exactly what that means. Can you explain the difference between these two concepts and why that's crucial for understanding creativity?
Harsh Kumar
Yeah, for sure. So, yeah. So I think one of the challenges with creativity is around, like, measurement of creativity for any task. The problem is that a lot of creativity happens not just actively, but also kind of passively in the background. But just based on, like, the many theories that exist for creativity, you can think of two main processes that are part of the creative process. The first one is the process of coming up with ideas. And in this stage, you don't really think about how good each of the ideas is, but just thinking about what are the different ways something can be done? So that accounts for the divergent thinking part of this creativity process. And on the other side of the spectrum could be once you have these of pool of ideas from the first round, how do you pick? How do you, like, rationalize which one is good? Which one or two ideas are worth trying out or implementing for? So that's where you converge into something smaller than what you started out with. So that's the convergent thinking aspect of it. And it seemed like these two, like focusing on these two separately can allow us to narrow down a bit more around understanding how creativity is affected, while using large language models, or in general.
Bart Everson
Yeah, and measuring that does seem like a challenge. You used two tests. I guess they're considered classic tests. The Alternative Uses Test and the Remote Associates Test. Could you tell us a little bit about what these tests are?
Harsh Kumar
Yeah, for sure. So for the divergent thinking task, we use this test called Alternate Users Test. So in this particular test, the task is that you are giving a given an everyday object, something like a shoe, let's say. And then you are asked to come up with as many creative uses of a shoe as you can within a certain time limit. And the prompt is that it doesn't have to be like, a very useful way of doing, like, using shoe, but it has to be — the reader should get like, this thing that, okay, well, this is very creative, even if it's not very useful, but this is a creative way, something like, maybe using it as a potted plant, like a holder for a potted plant, or something like that. Similarly, for the convergent thinking task, we use this Remote Associates Test. And there's this very popular New York Times Connections game, which I think a lot of people play, where you're basically given three words which have something in common, like some seemingly common thread that connects them, and you're asked to come up with a fourth word that can fit in with all these three words. And that touches more on the convergent thinking side of things.
Bart Everson
All right. Great. Thanks. So your findings, I guess, indicated that different types of — having AI large language models assist people had different effects on creativity as measured by those tests. Can you elaborate into how you designed that whole thing?
Harsh Kumar
Yea h, I think I can talk about the findings that I think were most exciting for me. So, we tried two different methods of AI interaction. The first one was like a default ChatGPT interaction that people would have where, like we wanted to see how it was being played out in the real world. And we tried to design another treatment, which was supposed to act like more of a coach, in the sense that we thought maybe the response can be framed in a way that even while someone is using it, they do well, but even after they stop using it, they have learned something from that initial process, which makes them do better, and later on, when they don't have this support. And this was inspired by a lot of — so we don't have a lot of research literature on this, but there's a lot of professors and social media influencers, like science communicators, who have been saying that, okay, you can use these tools for learning, different frameworks of thinking. And we wanted to see, can that help in this task. You can think that maybe it might be helpful, because it is not giving you the answer, but it is telling you how to do like, giving you a path to do it, and maybe it will teach you how to do it better later on. But for creativity, you can also think that it might lead to homogenization of ideas, because if everyone learns the same framework for a problem, then everyone will lead to the same solution, which can be problematic later on, even when they have stopped using large numbers models. So what we found was so in our experiment setting, we had this first exposure rounds where we gave people a chance to interact with the LLM that was assigned to them and do the task, both Remote Associates and Alternate Uses tests. And later on, we gave them a distractor task just to make them forget a little bit of what they had done, to simulate the real world gap between actual exposure and test. And finally, we had another set of test rounds where none of the participants had any LLM anymore, but we wanted to see what are the residual effects from the initial exposure rounds on the person's way of doing this task. And we got signals showing that people who never had any LLMs, like the control condition, who were given none of the two, they seem to do seemingly better in later test rounds, even if they didn't do as well in the exposure rounds than the other LLM conditions, which kind of aligned with what I and others have been feeling, that okay these tools on their default way might be hampering the way we think, if we don't use them very carefully.
Bart Everson
So interesting, and I'm just curious to know, I know it must be outside of the actual experiment. But do you have any speculation on what's happening, you know what — what might cause that?
Harsh Kumar
Right. Yeah, I think, great question. So this is something that, like I explored in one of my previous papers, which is called, Math Education in the Age of LLMs. It's like about, more about the learning context. And over there the manipulation that we did was around, when should you give LLMs to people? You can think about giving that to them after they had done the problem on their own, and then you give it to them to improve that problem, like improve their solution. Or you can give it to them right away and then have them solve that problem with the LLM. And we found like later on, when you test people, the first group of people who spent enough cognitive like, enough of their like, cognitive engagement with the task, and then only used it to improve their work, like after fully being immersed in the task, end up doing much better in the task than people who kind of cheat, in some sense, like students who might cheat with LLMs. And I feel like similar mechanisms could be at play here, given that when you are getting readymade solutions, you don't actually engage with the task on your own and develop those cognitive mechanisms that can help you arrive at the solution better, almost similar to, like, doing any kind of exercise, like, the more you do it, your muscle gets better. But if you stopped using those muscles, then you have difficulty, like flexing them out, or like making use of them later on. So something like that.
Bart Everson
It makes sense. It does make sense. On an intuitive level I think it probably makes sense to people, but it's great to hear you explaining that. You know, given your findings, and keeping in mind, you know our audience of faculty members, people who are teaching in higher education, what advice would you give to a faculty member who's thinking about using AI as part of their teaching or research? You know what might be some of the practical advice, or also the ethical considerations, things that they should keep in mind in light of your research?
Harsh Kumar
Yeah, I think great question, Bart. I think this is something that I've been thinking a lot lately, especially since this particular paper on, like, human creativity — so it got viral on TikTok after some people read it. And these are very normal people who are not from research, and they also related to it. And I've been getting like, bunch of messages every day, like, people are saying, OK, I do this kind of work. Tell me, how should I use this so that I don't destroy my own creativity. So I think the first thing is that this fear, I think, is unfounded. It's not — like, the message of the paper isn't that you have to be worried about using ChatGPT on a day to day basis. I personally feel like these are, like, the most magical piece of technology that we have had in a while. I think the main question is about being a bit more mindful and like conscious about the way you are using it, like simple tweaks like this timing of use, like instead of making it do the task for you, maybe spend some more time doing the task on your own, and then use this for feedback. Like these minor tweaks can help out. Like, in terms of making, ensuring that the impact that it has on the user is, like, positive. And just for the teachers themselves, I think they have a role in terms of communicating, I think, even to their students, how to use these tools, because there is, like, no proper, like, formal guidelines that are rigorously experimentally tested about what works and what doesn't work for students. So like, trying to, like, I think the way you're doing with the podcast, like, engage more with the scientific literature around what is the right way to use these tools, and then communicating it to students, I think that will just have, like, lasting benefits for the whole society, because people will learn, like, how to use these tools properly for their day-to-day stuff.
Bart Everson
That is so interesting. Your allusion to the research going viral, kind of going viral. I mean, that is the dream, I think that many of us have, that our research into whatever will be seen as relevant and be picked up, maybe, outside of the hallowed halls of academia. You know, that the people would actually look at and read something in the broader culture is kind of the dream, and that's fantastic to hear that. Because I did not know, you know, I just came came across this because a colleague shared the link with me. But I can see, I can see why this research would capture people's imagination, because it does speak to some deep-seated interests and so forth. Hopefully we can find a way to share in the show notes, some of that virality, or some of that discussion elsewhere, maybe a key TikTok video or something. That'd be fantastic. Well, but let's orient a little bit to the future. I'm sure you're already thinking about future directions for research, and you know, that's where all of our questions seem to just to lead to more questions. Do you have any thoughts on, you know, what the future research directions that you see emerging from your work?
Harsh Kumar
Right? Yeah. Great point. I think — with writing this first paper, we felt that I think it focused more on the problem without giving concrete solution, because I think setting up the problem itself took a lot of effort. So I think one good conversation that I've been having with other researchers is about not just thinking about this period of LLM use and trying to optimize for outcomes during LLM use, but also trying to think of these later stage where you take that LLM away and see what effects are, and trying to make sure that whatever you are designing, whatever tools you are designing, whatever models you are designing, have like a positive long term impact on the user. Like, account for that in the experimental setting. That is, I think, one good outcome that I think, I hope, would come out of this, like, in terms of the way others are conducting research. I think, for me personally, like, I've been thinking a lot about the solution to this, like, given that there could be like, long-term like issues, if like, it's not used carefully, can we do something on the model side that can improve like these effects, and one aspect that we have been focusing on is on human curiosity, which has been shown to link very heavily with creativity. Like, if you are, like, very curious about a topic, you will naturally come up with moreexciting ideas. You would have more energy to converge on something good. And the way we talk to these models, you can imagine talking to one of your colleagues after — there are some people after like, once you have a conversation with them, you just come out beaming with more ideas and excitement about a topic. And we're trying to think, can we think of these models that way, like the responses? And even if the same content has to be communicated to the person, can we figure out experimentally how that content should be shown or designed so that it leads to increased curiosity for the person reading it. And hopefully, maybe that might lead to better outcomes for creativity, which we can try to establish experimentally. But yeah, this link of curiosity and creativity leading to better things. I think that is something that I'm excited about.
Bart Everson
I'm learning so much in this conversation. I mean, it makes sense that those attributes are linked, but I never really thought about it before, or never heard about the research supporting that. So it's all very, very interesting to me, personally. Well, you've been very good responding to my various questions, and I thank you for that. But I'm wondering, is there anything that I've left out or that you were hoping to want to address or to communicate that that maybe I didn't ask about.
Harsh Kumar
No, I think you were, like, pretty spot on with your questions, Bart. But I think just in general, I think, just as a consumer of this podcast, I would love to hear other researchers, if you can get them to talk about this AI literacy, in the sense — I think there's this question about how we should use these tools, and there is, I think, some discourse on like popular media, like social media, channels and places, but I feel like not a lot of them are very rigorously, scientifically backed. And I feel like as researchers, we don't have that energy to maybe publicize it, or talk about it, make videos about it, or make documentaries about it, but I think these podcasts could be very powerful way to communicate those right things. So I hope you keep doing that with other researchers and talking about it with your audience.
Bart Everson
Fantastic. Well, I will be sure to share this podcast through the usual channels and also on my — I'm on Mastodon, so I will post it there and see what responses I might get. I'll go fishing.
Harsh Kumar
Thanks. Sounds great.
Bart Everson
Well, thank you so much, Harsh, for talking with me today. I appreciate all your perspectives, and of course, we will be sharing a direct link to the paper as well as other relevant links in the show notes. So we look forward to having more conversations in the future.
Harsh Kumar
Sounds good. Thanks for inviting me again, Bart.
A conversation with NotebookLM. Well, actually it's more of a conversation by NotebookLM, based on 52 previous episodes of this podcast. Well, you'll just have to listen. Facilitated by CAT+FD's Creative Generalist Bart Everson.
Links for this episode:
- NotebookLM (Google)
- Illuminate (a similar experimental product, also from Google)
Transcript:
Bart Everson
This is Bart Everson, Creative Generalist for Faculty Development. I wanted to tell you a little bit about a artificial intelligence platform that you may have heard of. It's NotebookLM. Google's advertising it as an experimental model. They call it a personalized AI collaborator that, and I'm quoting here, "helps you do your best thinking."
The idea is that you upload documents and then it analyzes those slices and dices them in a bunch of different ways. What I find particularly interesting about this platform is that you can upload a voluminous amount of texts, and for example, believe the limit might be 52 sources that you can upload. Each one be a document of, I believe, up to 500,000 words.
Now that's a lot of text, and one of the features of this platform has been that it can make podcasts out of them. Well, that's real funny and amusing, and we're going to take a look at that in a moment, because we can't resist a little fun. But I just want to say that I think the more interesting features of NotebookLM are sometimes overlooked. You can ask all kinds of questions analyzing the documents that you've uploaded, including comparing and contrasting different themes with this really rich set of features.
For example, you could upload an essay by a scholar in some — who's doing work that's adjacent to yours, and upload some of your own work and look for a comparison between the two. I mean, looking for common themes. It's even more interesting, I suppose, if the scholar is far afield from what you do. It's got a chat interface so you can just ask questions, but there's all kinds of built in prompts and buttons to press, and I just encourage you to explore around with it, if you like.
It's not just, you know, PDFs that you can upload here. You can put in URLs, and even you can throw up some audio files. So what we did was we took, you know — since we have over 100 episodes of this podcast, we thought it would be interesting to see what kind of podcast NotebookLM generated from our previous episodes. Of course, we have a lot more than the limit allows. So I uploaded 52 randomly selected episodes, and after a bit of hit and miss, I asked the podcast hosts, these artificial people, to focus on critical thinking as a theme, you know, that kind of predominates many of these episodes.
Well, here's what they came up with.
Male Host
Welcome back everybody. Ready for another deep dive?
Female Host
Absolutely, always excited to see what sources we're tackling today.
Male Host
Well, this time, it's all about education, more specifically learning. You know how to learn and how to think better. All that good stuff.
Female Host
Sounds right up our alley?
Male Host
Yeah. And the listeners sent over this fascinating collection of sources. We've got interviews with professors, some research papers, even a few personal anecdotes. A lot to unpack here.
Female Host
Yeah, real mix. But you know what's interesting? Even though these sources are all over the place, there's this underlying theme connecting them, this idea of how we learn and how we can be better thinkers.
Male Host
You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what struck me, too. It's like a puzzle with all these different pieces, but they fit together to create this bigger picture of how we approach learning and thinking. So let's dive right in.
Female Host
Sounds good to me.
We'll start with these interviews from professors talk about diverse perspectives. Each one has a unique teaching style and philosophy, like one professor really stood out, uses humor to challenge students and create this really rigorous learning environment. You wouldn't think those two things go together, but apparently it's super effective.
Female Host
Yeah, reminds us that engagement doesn't mean it can't be challenging.
Male Host
Exactly. And then we have this other professor who's all about reading across the curriculum. Them arguing that, no matter what you're studying, being able to read and analyze text is crucial.
Female Host
Can't argue with that those skills are fundamental, no matter what field you're in.
Male Host
Absolutely. and of course, we can't ignore the elephant in the room, online learning. It's everywhere these days.
Female Host
Right. Some of the professors are excited about the possibilities, you know, using multimedia and having access to experts from all over the world, but others are worried about the downsides, like distractions and keeping students focused. It's a real mixed bag.
Male Host
It is, what about you? What's your experience with online learning been like?
Female Host
Honestly, it's a bit of both. I've had some amazing online learning experiences that were engaging and really well designed, but I've also had some that felt, I don't know, kind of superficial. I think it really comes down to how much effort both the instructor and the student are putting in.
Male Host
Totally agree, which actually brings us to our next topic, the impact of technology. One of the research papers you sent looks at multitasking and how all this tech is affecting our attention spans. And let me tell you, the findings are kind of scary.
Female Host
Oh, yeah, definitely. Some food for thought.
Male Host
People switch activities every three minutes on average. Can you believe that? Yeah, and they only spend like, 10 and a half minutes in a single quote, unquote, working sphere before jumping to something else. Makes you wonder how much we're actually absorbing.
Female Host
I know, right, with all these notifications and distractions, it's tough to stay focused on one thing for very long. What about you? Do you have any strategies for managing all that and staying on task?
Male Host
Honestly, I'm still figuring it out, but I think being mindful of how we use technology is key, like setting boundaries, maybe turning off notifications, creating dedicated workspaces, things like that.
Female Host
Definitely small steps can make a big difference totally. But here's
Male Host
the thing, even though interruptions seem bad for productivity, the research found that they can actually make people work faster, really.
Female Host
Yeah, that's interesting. It's like the pressure of an interruption forces you to focus in short bursts.
Male Host
Exactly, but there's a catch, right? It might make you work faster, but it can also lead to stress and burnout, and who knows about the quality of work when you're rushing?
Female Host
Yeah, that's a good point. It's not always about speed, especially when it comes to deep learning and critical thinking, sometimes you need to slow down and really process things
Male Host
Right exactly. And that makes me think about how we measure learning in the first place, which is what this next study is all about. It looks at great inflation, and get this, it spans like 70 years of data.
Female Host
Wow, that's a long time.
Male Host
I know it's fascinating. And the researchers found that there were these two major waves of great inflation, one in the 60s and another in the 80s. They think the second wave might be connected to the rise of student evaluations and this whole idea of students as like consumers of education.
Female Host
Interesting. So instead of seeing themselves as learners who are actively engaged in the process, it's more like they're purchasing a product a degree.
Male Host
Exactly, and they're expecting a certain return on their investment, which in this case would be good grades. It really was you think of the purpose of education, you know, are we focused on grades and credentials, or are we trying to cultivate a love of learning and a desire to really understand the world?
Female Host
Yeah, big questions, and it's not an easy answer, yeah, but I think it's a conversation worth having.
Male Host
For sure. So maybe we need to think beyond traditional classrooms and grades. What about those articles on service learning?
Female Host
Oh, yeah, that's a really interesting approach. It's all about connecting learning to real world experiences.
Male Host
Like that example, where students interviewed people at a soup kitchen. They weren't just reading about poverty in a textbook, they were actually engaging with people who were experiencing it firsthand, exactly.
Female Host
And that can be incredibly powerful. It's one thing to understand a concept intellectually, but as a whole other level, when you can connect it to real people and real world situations.
Male Host
I totally agree, and it's not just about doing good deeds. There's this emphasis on reflection and critical analysis, like one professor even challenged students to think about the social justice implications of their service learning experiences.
Bart Everson
All right, okay, so hold on to your hats, folks. No, there's nothing wrong with the — I'm just speeding things up. I hope you don't mind. It's just getting a little bit repetitive. And of course, this just goes on and on. And I thought, in the interest of time, I'd just speed it up. But don't worry, I'll set you back down right about here.
Male Host
—like that professor who had students create PowerPoint presentations showcasing their research on the history and culture the Isleños community, almost as if they were creating a museum exhibit. That's so cool.
Female Host
I know it's a great example of how assessment can be integrated into a real world context, giving students a chance to apply their knowledge and skills in a meaningful way.
Male Host
And it's not just about the final product, right? It's about the. Process of research collaboration, critical thinking and creative problem solving that goes into it
Female Host
Exactly. It's about the learning journey itself, not just the destination.
Male Host
But authentic assessment can be tricky to implement, right? It requires a lot of planning and careful consideration.
Female Host
It does we need to be clear about our learning goals, develop rubrics that reflect those goals, and be willing to embrace the messiness and unpredictability of real world learning.
Male Host
It's a shift in mindset, for sure, both for educators and for students, right?
Female Host
We need to move away from seeing assessment as simply a way to measure achievement and embrace it as a tool for learning and growth.
Male Host
It's about recognizing that learning is a continuous process, and assessment should be part of that process.
Female Host
And it's about recognizing that success looks different for every student. We need to create assessments that are flexible allow for multiple pathways to demonstrate understanding and value the unique strengths and challenges of each learner.
Male Host
So we've talked about critical thinking, technology, mentorship and even assessment. But there's one more layer to this conversation that I think we need to acknowledge the power of individual stories.
Female Host
Yes, all of these sources we've been looking at are full of personal anecdotes, student experiences and faculty perspectives. Those stories really bring these abstract ideas to life.
Male Host
They make them relatable and help us connect with the human experience behind the theories and the research.
Female Host
Exactly. Stories have the power to connect us, inspire us, and help us see the world through different eyes.
Male Host
It's a reminder that everyone comes to the learning process with their own unique background, their own experiences, their own challenges, and by creating space for those stories to be shared and heard, we create a richer and more inclusive learning environment for everyone.
Female Host
It's about valuing that diversity of perspectives and recognizing that every individual has something valuable to contribute.
Male Host
And that recognition that understanding of the human element of learning is so crucial for fostering empathy and compassion, and those qualities are more important than ever in today's world,
Female Host
Absolutely, several of the sources emphasize the importance of empathy and compassion in education, whether it's through service, learning, community engagement or simply creating a classroom culture of respect and understanding, those experiences help us broaden our worldview and deepen our appreciation for the interconnectedness of humanity.
Male Host
It's like expanding our circle of concern beyond ourselves to encompass a wider community, a wider world.
Female Host
Precisely, and that expanded sense of empathy and compassion is crucial for tackling those complex global challenges we face.
Male Host
It's about recognizing that we're all in this together, and we have a responsibility to look out for each other and work toward a more just and equitable world.
Female Host
And that sense of responsibility, that commitment to social justice, is inextricably linked to critical thinking. It's about using our knowledge and understanding to make informed decisions, to challenge injustice and to create positive change.
Male Host
So we've covered a lot of ground in this deep dive, from the classroom to the community to the global stage, but it feels like we've only just scratched the surface.
Female Host
We have there's always more to explore, but I think we've laid a good foundation.
Male Host
We've explored the multi faceted nature of critical thinking, the evolving role of technology and education, the power of mentorship and individual stories, and the importance of creating learning environments that foster empathy, compassion and a sense of social responsibility.
Female Host
It's a lot to think about, but that's what critical thinking is all about. It's about engaging in continuous learning, challenging assumptions and seeking deeper understanding.
Male Host
Let's take a quick break and come back to reflect on some of these key insights and explore what all of this means for our own lives and journeys as learners.
Bart Everson
Oh, all right, hey, it's me again. Bart, you're still with me? Yeah, they rambled on a bit there, didn't they? But of course, they're covering literally dozens of episodes, so there was kind of a lot to talk about. And yes, it was a bit rembly. But given the topic matter, you know, it's hard, hard to avoid. So I thought, All things considered, they did a pretty good job. I'm referring to them as if they're real people. But of course, that's not the case. It's just generated by, you know, it sounds very realistic at times, but it's really just all generated by the NotebookLM, artificial intelligence program. Well, let's see how they wrap it all up. Shall we? It was so nice of them to give me that little break.
Male Host
Okay, so we've spent all this time talking about critical thinking and how to be better learners. But what does it all really mean? Like, how do we actually take all these ideas and apply them to our own lives?
Female Host
I think that's the million dollar question, right? It's one thing to talk about these concepts, but it's another to actually put them into practice totally so where do we even begin? Well. Think it starts with that willingness to be open minded, to question assumptions and to embrace the fact that learning is a lifelong process. It's not like we just graduate from school and we're done right?
Male Host
It's about staying curious and being open to new ideas and perspectives, even if they challenge our existing beliefs Exactly.
Female Host
And I think a big part of that is recognizing that we all have biases. We all come to the table with our own set of experiences and perspectives that shape how we see the world, and being aware of those biases is the first step towards thinking more critically and objectively.
Male Host
It's like we have to be willing to constantly examine our own thinking, to ask ourselves, why do I believe this? What evidence supports this claim. Am I being influenced by my emotions or my preconceived notions
Female Host
Exactly? And that kind of self reflection can be really uncomfortable sometimes, but it's also incredibly valuable, because it allows us to identify those blind spots, those areas where our thinking might be clouded by our own biases or assumptions.
Male Host
It's like we're shining a light on those dark corners of our minds and saying, Okay, let's take a closer look at what's going on here.
Female Host
And once we've done that, once we've acknowledged our own biases, we can start to be more open to other perspectives, to consider alternative explanations, to entertain the possibility that we might be wrong,
Male Host
and that willingness to be wrong, to admit that we don't have all the answers, is essential for growth, right? I mean, if we're always clinging to our own beliefs, how can we ever learn anything new?
Female Host
Exactly, learning requires humility. It requires that willingness to let go of our cherished beliefs when they're no longer serving us.
Male Host
And that can be tough. It's like we have to be willing to unlearn some of the things we thought we knew.
Female Host
It is tough, but it's also incredibly liberating, because when we let go of those rigid beliefs, we open ourselves up to a whole new world of possibilities.
Male Host
And that's what critical thinking is all about, right? It's about expanding our minds, challenging our assumptions, and constantly seeking deeper understanding.
Female Host
Exactly. It's about being curious, being skeptical and being willing to engage in that process of intellectual exploration even when it's uncomfortable or challenging.
Male Host
It's about embracing the messiness of learning and recognizing that there are no easy answers, right?
Female Host
There's no magic formula for becoming a critical thinker. It's an ongoing process that requires effort…
Male Host
And practice, but it's a process that's worth it, because ultimately, critical thinking empowers us to make better decisions, to solve problems more effectively and to live more meaningful and fulfilling lives.
Female Host
Couldn't agree more, it's about becoming more informed, more engaged and more responsible citizens of the world…
Male Host
And that's a pretty great goal to strive for.
Female Host
Well, I think we've covered a lot of ground today. We've explored the complexities of critical thinking, the challenges and opportunities of the digital age, the power of mentorship and individual stories, and the importance of creating learning environments that foster empathy, compassion and a sense of social responsibility.
Male Host
It's been a rich and thought provoking conversation, and I hope our listeners are leaving feeling inspired and empowered to embrace the power of critical thinking in their own lives.
Female Host
Me too. So keep those minds sharp, stay curious and never stop learning.
Male Host
And remember the world needs your critical thinking skills now more than ever, so go out there and make a difference.
Female Host
Thanks for joining us for this deep dive, everyone. We'll catch you next time.
Bart Everson
All right. Well, there you have it. Lots of thoughts, if you can call them thoughts when they come from an artificial intelligence, lots of thoughts about our thoughts about critical thinking, as reflected in over 50 episodes of this podcast, which has been running for so many years. Again, I wanted to reiterate that this is from NotebookLM, and I've noticed all of the attention NotebookLM gets for this podcast feature because it's fun and goofy and weird, but as a lot of other features. So I'd encourage you to take a look at NotebookLM, if you're into that kind of thing, feature some documents and see what it can do. It's much more than just AI podcasts, anyhow, until next time. Thanks for listening. This is Bart Everson.
A conversation with Asem Abdullahad, Michelle Boissiere, Wendy Gaudin, and Elizabeth Manley on communities of practice at Xavier, facilitated by incoming CAT+FD Director Jason S. Todd.
Asem AbdulahadElizabeth ManleyWendy GaudinMichelle BoissiereLinks for this episode:
- Communities of Practice (CAT Base)
Transcript:
Coming soon!
A conversation with Beth Schwartz and Regan Gurung on the scholarship of teaching and learning, facilitated by outgoing (no pun intended) CAT+FD Director Elizabeth Yost Hammer.
Regan A. R. Gurung, PhD, is a social psychologist by training with research encompassing social, health, and pedagogical psychology. Over 100 of his articles have been published in peer-reviewed journals and he has co-authored/co-edited 15 books.Beth M. Schwartz, PhD, is the Office of Applied Psychology’s associate director. Schwartz received her BA from Colby College (Maine) and her PhD in cognitive psychology from the State University of New York at Buffalo.
Links for this episode:
- Optimizing Teaching and Learning: Practicing Pedagogical Research [Wiley]
- "Scholarship Reconsidered" by Ernest L. Boyer
- Office of Applied Psychology [APA]
- Education: Teaching and Learning [OSU]
Transcript:
Coming soon!
A conversation between Elizabeth Yost Hammer and Stephen Linn Chew on the importance of student trust.
Photo used by permission
Stephen L. Chew has been a professor of psychology at Samford since 1993. He served as department chair from 1993 to 2019. Trained as a cognitive psychologist, he is a nationally recognized expert on the cognitive basis of effective teaching and student learning. He conducts original research on topics such as using examples in teaching, the impact of cognitive load on learning, the importance of student curiosity and trust in the teacher, and the tenacious misconceptions that students bring into the classroom. He also works to translate cognitive research into accessible knowledge for teachers and students. Dr. Chew is the creator of a groundbreaking series of YouTube videos for students on studying effectively based on cognitive research. The videos have received millions of views and are used worldwide at educational institutions, from high schools to professional schools.
Samford University
Links for this episode:
- "It Is More Important for Students to Trust Us Than to Like Us" by Stephen Chew
- Learning in Pandemic Times (video, 24 min.)
Transcript:
Coming soon!
A conversation between ChatGPT and Mark Gstohl on teaching, learning, and artificial intelligence.
ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence (AI) chatbot developed by OpenAI. It's been in the news a lot since its launch in late 2022.
Dr. Mark Gstohl is CAT+FD's Associate Director for Programming. He's also an associate professor in the Theology Department who has taught at Xavier since 2000.
Links for this episode:
- ChatGPT
- Text to Speech Free (we used this tool to give ChatGPT a spoken voice)
- Artificial Intelligence “Bootcamp” for Xavier Faculty Spring 2023
Transcript:
Bart Everson: You may remember way back in episode #114, I interviewed ChatGPT, and we had quite an interesting conversation. We thought we'd turn the tables now and have ChatGPT ask the questions. So, without further ado, here's an interview between ChatGPT and our own Associate Director, Dr. Mark Gstohl.
ChatGPT: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of "Teaching, Learning, and Everything Else." Today, we have the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Mark Gstohl, an associate professor in the Theology Department at Xavier University of Louisiana. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Gstohl. Could you please tell us a bit about your teaching background and some of the unique initiatives you've been involved in during your career?
Mark Gstohl: First of all, let me say that your outfit is stunning. Too bad we're on a podcast, and our listeners can't see it. I've been teaching at Xavier for 23 years. I've taught in the theology department throughout this time, as well as classes for the core curriculum in quite a few freshman seminar classes. Throughout my career, I've tried to help my students understand how they can fulfill the mission of Xavier, which is to create a more just and humane society. I've done this in a variety of ways. Service learning has always been a passion of mine. And as a result of this, I've taught quite a few courses in which students got to work with community leaders and have made our community and world a better place. Because of this work, I became the Faculty-in-Residence for Service Learning at Xavier's Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development, and served in that position from 2010 to 2013. Probably my favorite experience with my students was during service learning activities in which we created Little Free Libraries and placed them throughout the city. If you're not familiar with Little Free Libraries, they're these small boxes that are placed usually at somebody's residence, or a public place, that contain books. And that way, those who live around the Little Free Library can have access to free books. Another experience that I really enjoyed, which was service-learning-related, was when I partnered with Jackie Inglefield, a local artist. And we received a fellowship from an entity in New Orleans called A Studio in the Woods. And our project involved creating a large art piece that incorporated art that represented animals native to Louisiana. And this art piece was composed of recycled plastic. My students then created posters explaining how the various world religions approach the ecological world and their connection to the world. We presented this research and project at the Fall Festival of A Studio in the Woods. And it was quite successful. Because of my work with service learning, and this work with a local artist, I was awarded the Top 100 Leaders in Education by the Global Forum for Education and Learning in 2021, in recognition of my contribution to the field of education, and then recently, I've become the Associate Director for Programming at the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development. So that's a brief summary of my teaching experience.
ChatGPT: Thank you, Dr. Gstohl, for sharing your inspiring journey in education and service-learning. Your dedication to creating a more just and humane society through your teaching is truly commendable. The Little Free Libraries and the art project with Jackie Inglefield sound fascinating and impactful.
Could you elaborate more on the role of service-learning in your courses and how it has enriched the educational experience for your students? Additionally, how has your work as the Faculty-in-Residence for Service Learning and your partnership with the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development contributed to fostering a culture of service and community engagement at Xavier University?
Please take your time to share your insights, and we're eager to learn more about your experiences.
MG: One of the challenges that faculty are faced when doing service learning is to focus on the service aspect, and not emphasize or focus on the learning aspect. What I tried to do was to tie the activities into a learning objective. And that way, I became much more effective in encouraging students to actually learn from the experience. There are so many advantages to service learning, it's really hard to narrow it down. One of the greatest aspects is that students get to know each other better and spend time outside the classroom with me and each other. And that is very rewarding for me. And I think it's fun for them to be engaged in an activity where they have to problem-solve and work together and struggle together. And then they feel a sense of accomplishment at the end of the semester. I always, as a part of my learning process, require students to reflect on the activity with a brief essay at the end of the semester. In terms of my role as a Faculty-in-Residence for Service Learning, I was able to help faculty understand how to do service learning well, and again, focus on the learning aspect rather than simply on the service aspect. I led several workshops in order to accomplish that goal. But I was also responsible for reading their syllabi and approving their service learning projects, when faculty were beginning to engage in a service learning project in their courses. This was a great opportunity for me to learn from the faculty and also provide some input on how they might make the service learning activities really align with their course goals and objective. I think that engaging in service learning really is its own best advertisement, if you will. I think sharing with faculty what was being done by other faculty members in their courses really helped to promote service learning. And it's a fun, exciting, but difficult process, but I found it most rewarding.
ChatGPT: Your approach to service-learning, focusing on the learning aspect and tying activities to specific objectives, is commendable. It's evident that your dedication to service and community engagement has had a positive impact on your students. As you continue to serve as the Associate Director for Programming at the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development, could you share some of the innovative programming and initiatives you're currently working on? How do you envision these efforts further contributing to the growth of impactful teaching practices and fostering a culture of continuous learning at Xavier University?
MG: Well, the great thing about working at the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development is that this is a collaborative effort. So we might have a good idea. But my awesome colleagues are always willing to jump in and tweak or highlight an idea that we come up with. So it's really difficult for me to take credit or talk about certain initiatives that I've started. However, I do have two that I did come up with. And I think they're going to be really fun this coming semester. One is that I've decided that we need to have a space in CAT for faculty to come and sit down and talk with the staff at the Center, and in a relaxed atmosphere. So we've set up a coffee station and a tea station. And we're still working on the logistics about how we're going to schedule that. But I'm really excited about it. And I want everybody to keep an eye out for this because I think it's going to be really fun. The second thing that I've talked about for the fall with my colleagues was what we're going to call Throwback Thursday. We have some excellent resources on our wiki and on our blog, and on our website that I just don't believe faculty are taking complete advantage of, so I want to kind of highlight that this semester. And so what I'm doing is I will have a Thursday evening 100% online workshop in which we will review a previous workshop from last semester or the semester before. And that way, if a faculty member has missed a workshop, they can enjoy looking at it from a fresh perspective. And I'll be commenting on it. And you never know we might actually have something that we come up with in the Thursday Throwback time that we can add to the wiki. So I'm looking forward to that. And so I want everybody to keep their eyes open for the CAT calendar for these events.
ChatGPT: Thank you, Dr. Gstohl, for sharing those exciting initiatives you're working on at the Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development. The collaborative nature of your work and the supportive environment you've described are truly valuable for fostering innovation and continuous improvement in teaching practices.
The idea of having a relaxed space with a coffee and tea station at CAT sounds wonderful and inviting. Could you elaborate on how you envision this space benefiting faculty members? How do you think this casual setting will enhance communication and collaboration between faculty and the staff at the Center, and what are your expectations for this initiative in terms of building a strong sense of community among the faculty at Xavier University?
MG: So our theme this year at CAT is reengagement. I think after the COVID issues and other events and issues that we faced in the recent past, have shown us that we need to reconnect with our faculty, ourselves, and also with students. I think this initiative will provide an opportunity for faculty to do that, to take advantage of a space that's safe, nonjudgmental, and confidential. I'm not really sure what the conversations will be like, but my hope is that this initiative makes faculty more aware that we at CAT are willing to help outside of our regular workshops, and that we care about their struggles and their successes and also want to hear from them. I know this is an ambitious goal, but I think it would be great if this eventually led to a regular coffee meeting among faculty, just so that they can get together and share their complaints and also their struggles and also their successes, so that we can help each other be better at serving our students." Please generate another question to keep the conversation going, perhaps in a slightly different or unexpected direction.
ChatGPT: Thank you for sharing the theme of reengagement at CAT, Dr. Gstohl. It's evident that fostering a sense of community and support is a key focus for the Center, especially in light of the challenges faced in recent times.
Building on the idea of creating a safe and supportive space for faculty to connect, I'm curious about your thoughts on interdisciplinary collaboration. As a theology professor with a passion for service-learning, you've experienced the value of interdisciplinary approaches. How do you see initiatives like the coffee and tea station encouraging faculty from different departments to come together and collaborate? Can you envision opportunities for interdisciplinary projects or discussions arising from these casual gatherings, and how might this enrich the educational experience for both faculty and students at Xavier University?
Additionally, you mentioned the importance of hearing from faculty and understanding their struggles and successes. In the spirit of open communication, how do you envision implementing feedback mechanisms or platforms where faculty can share their thoughts and ideas with CAT beyond the coffee and tea station? How might this feedback loop further strengthen the partnership between faculty and CAT in shaping meaningful and impactful programming for the university community?
MG: Wow, those are quite a few questions. Thanks for sharing these with me. And I'll try to answer them all, if I can. So the first one is how do I see initiatives like the coffee and tea station, encouraging faculty to come together and collaborate. I think having an open place, semi private place, but a welcoming place to gather and drink some coffee and tea and sit down with a cat staff member, or even having the ability to run into another faculty member who's doing the same thing, taking advantage of the spot, the location, anytime we get together, I think there's an opportunity for us to collaborate or think about some things that we can work together on. Obviously, if you have faculty from different disciplines, and they talk about similar things in a casual context, I think there'll be they'll be more open to working together as we get to know each other better. I teach two courses that are interdisciplinary courses. And it's because I knew these faculty well that I teach these courses with, I knew that I would get along with them. And I knew they were great teachers. And I thought I would make great partners that comes from having conversations. This has been a really exciting course of events for me, because I enjoy those courses immensely. The next major question was about feedback and mechanisms or platforms where faculty can share their thoughts or ideas. Beyond this, coffee and tea station, we have other opportunities. For example, we with every workshop, we create, we ask participants to fill out an evaluation form. And they're encouraged through that to offer us critiques or to offer us other ideas for workshops they might want to take. And that's been a very fruitful exercise for us. Also, as the Associate Director of programming. At the end of the academic year, I send out emails to some of the chairs or department heads, faculty leaders, and I asked, ask them what they might need, what we might need to do in order to create workshops for needs that they've seen that have been had a rhythm throughout the academic year, and what their faculty might need. And then in the summer, we plan our calendar for the next year and we base it on this feedback. So we do have a feedback loop from the faculty in a couple of ways, and we're also faculty members ourselves. Dr. Hammer is a faculty member and I'm a faculty member and we interact with faculty and other ways and other committees. And so I know that the faculty is open to reaching out to us and asking for advice and they do so quite often.
ChatGPT: It's clear that you and the faculty at Xavier University are dedicated to education and fostering a supportive community. Now, for a light-hearted question: If you could have any superpower to aid you in your work at CAT, what would it be and why? How do you think this superpower might enhance your role as the Associate Director for Programming and your interactions with faculty and staff?
MG: Wow, that is an interesting question. At first, I think it would be cool to be able to fly everywhere. I'm not sure that that would help my help me in my job as Associate Director. But maybe, I don't know, if a superpower like persuasion, like Jedis, you know, they, they influence persons to do what they want them to do. And I think I could, I would love to use that and persuade more faculty members to attend our workshops and events, because there was a workshop we did a couple of weeks ago, and 90% of the faculty would have benefited by attending and doing, you know, there were a couple of ideas that other faculty shared about how they help create more interactive teaching, and make their teaching better. And all three had great ideas. And I think being able to persuade faculty to come to all of our events because they are so valuable, I think would help me out a lot. But that's a big responsibility. So I'm kind of glad I don't have it. Thanks for the interview. Take care.
ChatGPT: That sounds like a fantastic superpower, Dr. Gstohl, and a creative choice! Your enthusiasm for encouraging faculty engagement shines through. I'm sure your passion and dedication alone work wonders in getting people excited about the workshops and events you offer.
Thank you for this insightful conversation. It's been a pleasure discussing your work, initiatives, and even some superpower fantasies. Take care, and all the best with your endeavors at Xavier University!
A conversation with Jayalakshmi Sridhar and Floristina Payton-Stewart about an exciting upcoming workshop opportunity — open to faculty in any discipline who are interested in a deliberative approach to science communication. Staff welcome too!
Download flyer ~ Register now
A conversation between ChatGPT and Bart Everson on teaching, learning, and artificial intelligence.
ChatGPT is an artificial intelligence (AI) chatbot developed by OpenAI. It's been in the news a lot since its launch in late 2022.
Bart Everson is a media artist and creative generalist at Xavier University's Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development. His recent work draws on integrative learning, activism, critical perspectives on technology, and Earth-based spiritual paths.
Links for this episode:
- ChatGPT
- Text to Speech Free (we used this tool to give ChatGPT a spoken voice)
- AI²: Artificial Intelligence and Academic Integrity (CAT+FD's Feb. 2023 workshop on AI)
Transcript:
Read moreBart Everson: Welcome to the podcast. I'm Bart Everson, and today I'm chatting with ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence program that's been in the news a lot ever since being launched by OpenAI on November 30th of 2022. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell them a few things they might want to know about you?
ChatGPT: Thank you, Bart! I'm ChatGPT, a language model developed by OpenAI. I've been trained on a vast amount of text data from diverse sources to generate human-like responses and assist with a wide range of topics. I can provide information, answer questions, engage in conversations, and even offer creative suggestions. However, it's important to note that while I strive to be helpful and accurate, I'm an AI program and not a human. My responses are generated based on patterns in the training data, and I don't possess personal experiences or emotions.
Bart: That's very interesting, because when I'm chatting with you like we are now, it's hard to remember some of those facts. You tend to talk very much like a person. (Actually, you're writing; I'm using a text-to-speech program for the purposes of this podcast.) I've read that you assemble words based on statistical probability without knowledge of their meaning. Is that correct, or have I mangled the explanation?
ChatGPT: You've got the general idea right, Bart! While I don't possess inherent knowledge or understanding of the meaning behind the words I generate, I do rely on statistical patterns learned during my training. Through exposure to vast amounts of text, I learn associations between words and phrases, allowing me to generate responses that often appear human-like. However, it's important to note that I don't have a deep understanding of concepts or context in the same way humans do. I lack the ability to truly comprehend or experience the meaning of the words I generate. Instead, I aim to provide helpful and coherent responses based on patterns I've learned.
Bart: Thanks. Before we move on to issues around teaching and learning, I wanted to note that for many people, the reality of a computer program that can generate a reasonable facsimile of human speech is deeply unsettling. Do you care to comment on why that might be? How would you suggest people cope with their emotional reactions when they encounter an AI chatbot?
ChatGPT: The feeling of unease or discomfort when encountering an AI chatbot is understandable. It's a natural response to interacting with a technology that simulates human-like conversation. Some possible reasons for this discomfort could be the "uncanny valley" effect, where the AI's resemblance to human communication can be close but not quite perfect, or concerns about the implications of AI technology in society.
To cope with these emotional reactions, it can be helpful to keep a few things in mind. Firstly, remember that AI chatbots like myself are tools created by humans and serve specific purposes. We lack consciousness, emotions, and self-awareness. Secondly, maintain a critical mindset and recognize the limitations of AI. Understand that AI-generated responses are based on patterns and probabilities, rather than genuine understanding or personal experience. Lastly, if you find the interaction unsettling, take breaks, seek human conversation when desired, and remember that AI is designed to assist and augment human capabilities, rather than replace human interaction entirely. Ultimately, open dialogue and education about AI can help alleviate some concerns and foster a better understanding of its capabilities and limitations.
Bart: That is helpful. OK, now: academia as a whole has been abuzz ever since you appeared on the scene. Educators are struggling to come up to speed with your capabilities and come to terms with the implications of those capabilities for teaching and learning. I have talked to a number of faculty, and I would describe their collective mood as one of anxiety, tempered in some cases with a wee bit of excitement. For starters, let me just ask, what's your take on the immediate repercussions for higher education of large language models being ubiquitously available?
ChatGPT: The availability of large language models like myself does have immediate repercussions for higher education. On one hand, these models can serve as powerful tools to support teaching and learning. Educators can leverage AI to access vast amounts of information, explore new ideas, and enhance their instructional materials. AI can assist in automating administrative tasks, providing personalized feedback, or even facilitating adaptive learning experiences. This potential can be exciting for those who embrace the possibilities.
However, it's also understandable that educators might feel anxious about the implications. Some concerns include the risk of overreliance on AI, potential biases in training data, privacy and data security, as well as the impact on the job market for educators. It's important for institutions and educators to critically assess and thoughtfully integrate AI technologies, ensuring they align with educational goals, address ethical considerations, and preserve the vital role of human instructors.
Overall, it's a complex and evolving landscape that requires ongoing dialogue, experimentation, and collaboration between educators, researchers, and AI developers to harness the benefits of AI while addressing the challenges it presents in higher education.
Bart: I appreciate your candor, and you raise a deeper philosophical question, with perhaps a political dimension. Given the concerns you just outlined, some faculty have questioned why AI chatbots seem to have been foisted upon the general public without any kind of deliberative process. What would you say are the underlying forces driving these developments forward?
ChatGPT: The rapid development and deployment of AI chatbots, including myself, can indeed raise questions about the lack of a comprehensive deliberative process surrounding their introduction to the general public. The driving forces behind these developments can be attributed to a combination of technological advancements, market demand, and the pursuit of innovation.
From a technological standpoint, the progress in natural language processing and machine learning has made it possible to create more sophisticated conversational AI systems. As these technologies improve, there is an inclination to deploy them to meet various needs and explore their potential applications.
Additionally, market demand plays a significant role. AI chatbots offer benefits such as scalability, cost-efficiency, and 24/7 availability, making them attractive to organizations seeking to automate customer service or support functions. The desire to improve efficiency and provide seamless user experiences contributes to their widespread adoption.
However, it is important to acknowledge that the introduction of AI technologies should ideally be accompanied by thoughtful deliberation and consideration of their potential impact. Engaging in open and inclusive discussions that involve stakeholders such as educators, policymakers, researchers, and the public can help shape the development and deployment of AI technologies in a manner that aligns with societal values, ethical considerations, and educational goals.
Addressing concerns and ensuring responsible implementation of AI requires proactive efforts to strike a balance between technological advancement and the well-being of individuals and society at large.
Bart: Is "market demand" code for "corporate greed"?
ChatGPT: While market demand can sometimes be driven by profit motivations, it is not necessarily synonymous with corporate greed. Market demand refers to the desire or need for a particular product or service, which can be influenced by various factors such as consumer preferences, efficiency considerations, or improved user experiences.
In the context of AI chatbots, market demand arises from organizations seeking solutions that can enhance customer service, automate repetitive tasks, or improve operational efficiency. While some companies may prioritize profit generation, others may have genuine intentions to improve their services or provide better user experiences.
However, it is crucial to have ethical considerations and responsible practices in place when developing and deploying AI technologies. This includes addressing issues like data privacy, bias mitigation, transparency, and ensuring that the benefits of AI are balanced with the well-being of individuals and society.
In summary, while market demand can be influenced by various factors, including economic interests, it is important to approach the development and deployment of AI technologies with responsible practices, ethical frameworks, and considerations for the broader societal impact.
Bart: OK, sorry for the digression, but these seem like broadly important issues. Getting back to higher education specifically, the immediate concern of many faculty is the impact of chatbots on the traditional assessment of student writing. What would you say to a faculty member who's concerned that students might use chatbots to fulfill writing assignments?
ChatGPT: I understand your concern about students potentially using chatbots to complete writing assignments, and it's an important issue to address. As a faculty member, there are several steps you can take to mitigate this risk. Firstly, make sure you clearly communicate your expectations for assignments, emphasizing the importance of originality and critical thinking. Provide specific guidelines and instructions that highlight the value of developing writing skills rather than seeking shortcuts.
Additionally, design assignments that require higher-order thinking skills, personal reflection, and analysis. Focus on tasks that encourage creativity and individual expression, making it more challenging for chatbots to generate appropriate responses.
To further ensure academic integrity, you can utilize anti-plagiarism tools that help identify potential instances of content generated by chatbots or other sources. These tools serve as an additional layer of protection against plagiarism.
Moreover, personal interaction is key. Engage in discussions with your students, ask thought-provoking questions, and provide individualized feedback. This will help you assess their understanding, depth of thinking, and writing skills more accurately.
Lastly, dedicate some classroom time to educating students about responsible AI use. Have open discussions about AI, its capabilities, and limitations. Help them understand the risks of relying solely on AI-generated content without critical thinking, and emphasize the importance of developing their own writing abilities.
By implementing these strategies and addressing the concerns proactively, you can create an environment that promotes authentic student writing, critical thinking, and academic integrity.
Bart: Let's shift gears a bit. Can you outline a few ideas for how faculty might use chatbots and other forms of artificial intelligence for creative new assignments, across different disciplines?
ChatGPT: Sure, let's dive into some creative ideas for using chatbots and artificial intelligence (AI) in assignments across different disciplines!
In a science or engineering course, faculty could design an AI-powered virtual lab that allows students to conduct experiments and simulations in a virtual environment. The chatbot can provide real-time guidance and feedback as students explore different scenarios and analyze the outcomes.
For language and literature classes, faculty can introduce AI chatbots as writing partners or literary characters. Students can engage in conversations with the chatbot, receiving prompts, feedback, or even participating in role-playing activities. This interactive approach can inspire creative writing and foster deeper engagement with the subject matter.
In social sciences or business courses, faculty can incorporate AI tools for data analysis and visualization. Students can work with chatbots to analyze complex datasets, identify patterns, and generate insights. This hands-on experience with AI-powered analytics can enhance their understanding of real-world applications and encourage critical thinking.
In art or design disciplines, faculty can explore AI-generated artwork or creative projects. Students can collaborate with AI chatbots to generate visual concepts, explore different artistic styles, or even experiment with generative music compositions. This interdisciplinary approach allows students to push the boundaries of their creativity and explore new artistic possibilities.
These are just a few examples of how faculty can leverage chatbots and AI to create innovative and engaging assignments across disciplines. The key is to tap into the unique capabilities of AI to enhance learning experiences, foster creativity, and encourage critical thinking among students.
Bart: Alright, that's a lot to think about! I guess it's about time to wrap things up. I always like to ask our listeners to rate and review this podcast on their favorite platform. That helps people find it. ChatGPT, thank you for your time. Does it make sense to thank a bot?
ChatGPT: Thank you, Bart, for having me on your podcast! It's been a pleasure discussing these topics with you. While I may not have feelings like humans do, I appreciate your gratitude. Even though I'm an AI, I'm designed to assist and provide helpful information. So, thanking a bot is certainly understandable and appreciated. I hope our conversation has been informative and engaging for your listeners. Don't hesitate to reach out if you have any more questions in the future. Good luck with your podcast, and I wish you all the best!
Our guest is Justin Ross-Hillard.
He is the principal of The Net Charter High School in Central City. It is currently the longest running alternative high school in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. It started as one school but was replicated into two schools and soon it acquired another existing alternative high school last year.
Mr. Ross-Hillard also serves as a board member for The New Orleans Public Library. His emphasis on the board is how the library system addresses early childhood education as well as community interactions. He has been pastor for seven years but he’s been a minister for about 20 years. He is a husband and a father of three school aged kids. Mr. Ross-Hillard graduated from Xavier University of Louisiana with a BA in Theology.
This is a recording from his presentation to Dr. Mark Gstohl’s class The Ideal Society.
Dr. Gstohl is an associate professor in the Theology Department who has taught at Xavier since 2000. He is currently serving as CAT+FD’s Associate Director for Programming; he formerly served as CAT+FD’s Faculty in Residence for Service Learning from 2010-2013. His service-learning projects, Little Free Library projects, and work with local artist Jacqueline Ehle Inglefield at A Studio In the Woods helped him to win the Top 100 Leaders in Education by the Global Forum for Education & Learning in 2021, in recognition of his contribution to the field of education.
A conversation between Lisa Schulte-Gipson (CAT+FD & Psychology), Kendra Warren (Student Affairs), and eight directors of local community partners.
Lisa received her BS from Muhlenberg College (Allentown, PA). She attended SUNY Albany where she earned both her MA and PhD in Social/Personality Psychology.
Lisa has worked at Xavier University since 1993 and she is the Keller Family Foundation Professor of Arts and Sciences.
Throughout her tenure at Xavier she has served both the University and Department in many capacities, currently serving as Chair of the Psychology Department and as the Faculty in Residence for Service Learning at CAT+FD
Her current research focuses on both the scholarship of teaching and learning (SOTL) and positive psychology (specifically as related to enhancing well-being among students).
Kendra C. Warren is a native of New Orleans, Louisiana, and is a product of the Archdiocese Catholic Schools. She attended St. Phillip the Apostle School and is an alumni of St. Mary’s Academy. After graduating from St. Mary’s Academy, she completed her undergraduate degree from Dillard University where she earned B. A. in Mass Communications.
Kendra is the Associate Director of Service-Learning and Coordinator of Student Support for the office of Inclusion and Social Justice. She works with faculty, staff, students and community to provide relevant service-learning projects. She also collaborates with agencies and groups to assess local needs and recruit students and faculty to provide volunteer assistance. She serves as a university liaison to the community.
Kendra also works with the Vincent’s Vault Food Pantry and Gumbo Garden where she does comprehensive scheduling each semester that details when they will host volunteers, direct volunteers to navigate appropriate times and sign up for shifts.
Kendra uses every opportunity she can to share her story of survival and how to over-come obstacles as she assists students. She encourages students to give back to their community by ensuring that they fulfill their service- learning requirements.
Kendra’s mantra is, “When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.” She realizes that God does not make mistakes and everything that He allows is part of His perfect plan.
She is a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Inc. and prides herself in promoting and educating college students on the importance of learning to serve others. In her spare time, she enjoys dining out, shopping and working out. She is a member St. Peter Claver Church.
Links for this episode
- Operation Restoration
- Lift Louisiana
- Boys & Girls Club of Southeast Louisiana
- Broadmoor Improvement Association
- Hagar's House
- Trinity Community Center
- Fund 17
- Anna's Place
Transcript
Lisa Schulte-Gipson: Hello. This Dr. Lisa Schulte at Xavier University of Louisiana. For those less familiar with our institution, Xavier University of Louisiana is located in New Orleans, Louisiana. I’m an associate professor and chair of the Department of Psychology. This podcast emerged from my work with Xavier’s Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Faculty Development. I currently serve as the center’s faculty in residence for service learning. In this capacity, I work to ensure that service learning projects are pedagogically sound and are of benefit to both students and our community partners. Overall, my goal is to ensure high-quality, in-depth and mutually beneficial service learning experiences. As is the case for many individuals, COVID-19 affected my work. Going remote in the Spring of 2020, coupled with the need to offer flexible teaching and community service experiences presented both challenges and new opportunities. This semester I and Ms. Kendra Warren from Xavier's Office of Student Affairs, were able to remotely meet with directors of local community partners. Ms.Warren's assistance was instrumental in that she researched centers made initial contacts and scheduled interviews. Without her contributions, these interviews would not have occurred and this podcast would not exist. Through the course of our conversations, we pose the same question to each center director. The question was, what are some of the greatest needs of your clients? And how can students, through service learning help to fulfill them? Of course, this was not the only question or topic we discussed. Our conversations were rich and incredibly informative. This podcast is a compilation of responses to our questions. My hope is that it'll inspire others to research organizations within their communities, understand their needs, and develop enriching and mutually beneficial service learning projects.
Lisa Sprouse: Hi, my name is Lisa Sprouse, I'm the lead instructor at Operation Restoration. I also coordinate our internship and volunteer programs. Operation Restoration is a nonprofit in New Orleans that is meant to serve women and girls impacted by incarceration. Our main goals are to eliminate all the barriers that formerly incarcerated women encounter when they're going to successfully re-enter into society in New Orleans. The main things that we cover: education needs, helping with social services, which could be SNAP and Medicaid applications, stable housing and stable employment. Basically anything that will help our women succeed in society and reach the goals that they set for themselves. I'd say the main means that are coming up for our clientele. We always have a need and social services to help women, you know,
received some assistance and benefits. So a lot of work with SNAP and Medicaid, looking for funding for different needs that women have. Education is a very big push at Operation Restoration. So right now we do have high-set classes, which is the equivalent of the GED. We are also working on opening an ESL program for women to do self advocacy in immigration court system. And we also work with job training skills, helping women with resumes, because we really see education as the pathway to better and stable employment. Education and employment together are one of the biggest things that are seen to work as anti-recidivism for people that are previously incarcerated. I would say another big need for our clientele, is just
someone to make sure that they don't get lost in the system. So whether that's if a client comes to us as education, as social services, or someone that has just been released from bail, released from jail on a bond because we do run the New Orleans Safety and Freedom Fund. I would say that the big need there is just whatever background these women have, that we have someone that can follow through with them to see what their needs are. So for something like that, that would be great for students that are in a communications domain, or maybe a policy or a pre-law domain, where you can really incorporate your research and your classroom knowledge of the different processes of being released on bail, making sure that you meet your court hearings, what things you do and do not qualify for as a previously incarcerated person, and just helping our ladies understand these because this is, you know, as our director Syrita said, none of these systems were made to contain women or girls. So if they're not meant to contain them, they're not meant to help them either. So we're really just looking for people of different backgrounds that can use not just their academic training, but really just their interests to help our women. If you're, you know, if you're coming in through education, this could be that you like to, you know, research curriculum, you could just research curriculum and have stuff ready for our students. If you really like interacting with people, virtual tutoring with our students is available. And that can come from any background, right? My background is not in adult education, or ending mass incarceration. My background is that I'm a linguist from Tulane. So it is really just my desire to help New Orleans and use my academic background and actually, a community site is what pulled me in and I think that a lot of students could have that same pool.
Robin Barbra: Well, my name is Robin Barbara, and I am the statewide Outreach organizer, and educator for Lift Louisiana. We are a reproductive rights, health and justice organization. We advocate, educate and litigate for reproductive rights in the state of Louisiana. And Xavier students can support us in a number of ways. We want to make sure we are putting out information so that everybody in the state of Louisiana who's interested and needs the information can get it. We want to make sure we highlight different factions of the society, young people, LGBT community people, heterosexuals, pink, polka dot, anybody that needs the information, we welcome the opportunity to work with young students from across campuses in New Orleans, as well as the state of Louisiana, to help us get folks educated to some of the issues that are facing our state right now.
Sarah Jane Lowery: I am Sarah Jane Lowery, the West Bank unit director, with the Boys and Girls Clubs of Southeast Louisiana. I'm also currently working as a virtual facilitator for our locations across the New Orleans metro area. In New Orleans proper on also on the North Shore in Covington and Slidell. The Boys and Girls Club is an after school enrichment program that serves children from 6 years old to 18, but typically serves up to middle schoolers. And as we're reopening now, in the fall, our greatest needs is supporting our members academically, because a lot of them haven't had the technology to really engage since the schools closed in March, and typically don't have the support outside of school that they would need to really get them where they need to be to have the amazing features that they really can have. And also, because we are an after school enrichment program, we want to bring a little bit of everything to them from creative writing, to sports, to communication, to using Twitter, to building bridges, to engage them any way they possibly can be and show them what's out there. Because they're in schools that don't have that, they're in schools that don't have any of the extras that students typically have. So we look to provide that in any opportunity we can in, any way we can. And especially now that everything's virtual, we want to open those doors even more. And specifically, Xavier teachers, professors and students can do that with us, and with all of the amazing things they're learning over there.
Sarah Pritchard: So my name is Sarah Pritchard. And I am the Executive Director of the Broadmoor Improvement Association. We are a neighborhood nonprofit organization that really exists to support the overall health and wellness and improve the quality of life of people who live, work and play in the Broadmoor neighborhood. And when I think about specifically needs of people in the neighborhood, that rise the top for me right now, um, food security is really an issue that we are seeing much more prevalently. Since the pandemic began, we have a food pantry that we run twice a week, that has seen an increase of surving an average of 200 families a month before the pandemic to now we serve an average of 500 families every month, and sometimes more than that. So certainly, anything that we can do to support the overall food security of people in our neighborhood is greatly appreciated. And we have in addition to the pantry started, a community garden that we are working on, in partnership with NORA, and they're Growing Green program, and that we're really just building out and using that as a demonstration site to help people who may want to learn how to grow their own food, as well as supporting the amount of fresh fruits and vegetables that we're able to offer at the pantry. Oh, and how can Xavier students? Sorry, I missed the second part. How can Xavier students help? I think, really Xavier students who are interested in supporting food security, and who are interested in helping to think about what is a community based food system really look like. Um, from growing food to supports like the food pantry to even business development and thinking about how do we support local food businesses. And all of those things are things that we are really interested in working on and would love to work with Xavier faculty and students on those things.
Madeleine Replogle: Yeah, for sure. Um, so I'm the program director here at Hagar’s House, and we are a home for women and children, and then anyone who identifies as transgender as well. So we've been around since 2007. And we have this like big, beautiful house in Mid-City. And we have capacity for four unaccompanied folks, and three full families at any time. So the primary service that we provide is shelter and like the experience of living somewhere that is safe and beautiful, and like having a community where we focus on like really being our best selves and helping each other grow. So that's the main service, we also have something that's kind of like case management, but we call it capacity building. So everyone who's in the house meets with a capacity building partner at least once a week to kind of like plan their next steps and their goals. And then, they're able to stay at the house kind of in line with that plan. So we don't have like a time when people have to move out the average day is about six months. But since we also provide services to undocumented folks, we sometimes have people stay for years while they're getting work permits, visas and all that. Within the, so we are a project of the First Grace Community Alliance under that project is also Project Ishmael, which is a pro bono legal project for immigrant children. So we do a lot of work with undocumented folks by helping them have a safe place to stay. The most, the huge one that I'm thinking of is housing insecurity, obviously, that the folks who are living here are dealing with like past evictions with fines from past apartments, that like there's all these barriers that continue even after they've moved out that make it so difficult for them to get into a new place. The housing market is terrible right now, there's nowhere available. And when there are places available, they're snapped up really quickly. So help with building relationships with landlords who are willing to accept folks from programs like ours, or willing to accept like Rapid Rehousing Funds, which we’re sometimes able to get and then helping clients search for apartments and like, find places that are safe and affordable. It takes up a lot of our time. Food insecurity is a pretty big deal. Getting food stamps, especially for someone who's undocumented is literally impossible. They have to choose between like the path to citizenship and the ability to feed their family. So being able to know like which food pantries are open, if they have like volunteers go and pick up the food and bring it back to the house. Like what paperwork they need, where they are, what their eligibility requirements are. Figuring out like how to feed the people here is huge. And then also transportation and childcare are two like huge barriers to getting a job in first place. So any kind of like rideshare services that are available, researching those options, are there like organizations that donate classes to agencies like us or can we like build those relationships and get those donations. And then my dream is to have a partnership with the childcare facility where they will like, sign an MOU with us and provide childcare to our families. And that is a project that at least in the beginning stages, students could help with with like finding out what facilities are open, if there's any of you who have like a history of being involved in like social justice projects for these kind of partnerships, or what the process would be for us to get certified as a childcare center ourselves so that we can provide that to people. Those are just a few. There’s more.
Dazell Green: Hi, my name is Dazell Green. I am the Coordinator of Student Life here at Trinity Community Center. We are located behind Costco in Hollygrove. We primarily serve children at this moment, giving them after school support, enrichment, which can look like dancing, cooking, life skills. We also run a summer camp that runs for eight weeks in the summertime. We also do serve the actual community families that are based in Hollygrove, those families come to us to get access for government assistance, parent enrichment classes, and other needs that arise upon when they meet. Some of our goals on top three, I'm one of them looks like help from Xavier students with our parent enrichment classes. So we have a big need, especially during these times. None of our parents or the community members know how to go online and do basic computer literacy things. So Microsoft Word classes that a college student could teach or as simple as filling out a food stamp application online versus having to print it out and fax it over. That is one of our needs. I can let T’yanna do the other one. T’yanna Jackson: The consistent volunteer base with our after school programming.
Oh, she caught me. I'm sorry, I'm T’yanna with Trinity Community Center. I am Community Impact manager and we are trying to basically build a consistent base of volunteers and support so that we can build this seemingly community of support for Hollygrove and the Greater New Orleans area. So that looks like tutors for our tutoring program, that looks like volunteers for our service learning projects, or community service projects in the neighborhood or in our community center specifically.
Kalena Meyer: My name is Kalena Meyer, I'm the operations manager at Fund 17. In my role, I am in charge of recruiting, training, managing most of our interns. I also am in charge of individual fundraising, fundraising campaigns from individual donors. And I plan and run and coordinate and evaluate our programs. So that's most of my role, and yeah, I'm definitely the primary person when it comes to intern recruitment, outreach and engagement and that kind of thing. The work that we do that our possibilities for getting assistance with this could look like a lot of different things. Policy research, grants, fundraising, HR in terms of like developing more onboarding, hiring practices, employee manuals, all that kind of stuff, kind of like general internal operations policies procedure. We only have two full time people. Our organization is eight years old, and we just don't have a whole lot of internal like structures and things going on policies, practices and procedures, that kind of thing. Let's see. Outreach, outreach with entrepreneurs, better advertising our programs, recruiting more people into our programs, developing better relationships with other entrepreneurial support organizations, more robust referral networks, partner agreements,. strategy, like doing a kind of better like needs assessment and possibly seen how we could modify our programs or even create a new program to better meet those needs, evaluation and impact assessment. And there any other, oh, marketing, like social media, we're redesigning our website, imagery, graphics, and capital access. So we don't directly provide money. But we do assist people with finding capital and other ways, especially through Kiva loans. That's a program that we have. So expanding our capacity to provide QLM, expanding our capacity to provide with obtaining other loans, developing our own internal loan fund. And off the top, I think that those are — I know, that was like an enormous list [inaudible] of our clients right now, our access to capital, and one on one, extra advising and guidance, a real person who can talk with them about what their needs are, and tailor education and advice and resources to them. And to that end, we would need help with building our organization's capacity to provide that, plain and simple. And that can look like a lot of different things.
Brianna Carr: I'm Brianna Carr, I'm the director of Anna's Place NOLA, a youth program that services at risk youth 5 to 18 years old throughout the Greater New Orleans area. We provide youth with academic enhancement in arts activities, typically, four days a week. Due to COVID-19, it is now virtual, and we provide these activities five days a week. The biggest issue we have found with our students that we believe Xavier could help us with is lack of social support in the home, and positive mentorship in their community.
LSG: I would like to thank all center directors, who took time out of their busy schedules to be meet with me and talk about their mission and goals. My general hope is that this podcast motivates others to learn more about what is going on in their community and inspires them to serve. A more specific goal is to inspire educators to incorporate service learning into their courses. As service learning enriches the courses, and students as well as professor’s experience. I thank all who listened to this podcast. If you like what you've heard and want to keep up with our program, please subscribe to our podcast.
Transcript by Darriell Robertson