No updates this time. Just our current, possibly outlandish, opinions on gender. TLDR: Gender is sorta like free will, on an individual level many of us experience having it but it's an illusion. lol
-Hey, if there is something you find distasteful in this episode, let us know. We are still learning and we appreciate that our perspectives are limited to our own experiences.
-—Episode Transcript—-
Intro:
Elodie
Hi there, I'm Elodie, she her
JBug
Mama!
Jon
I'm Jon. He/him.
JBug
Papa!
Elodie
and this is the baby Juniper, they them.
JBug
Mee mee mee! Baby
Jon
We're doing our best at respectful and gender open, parenting
Hey everybody. We wanted to break with the usual format today and just do a little discussion on what we think, gender is and
Elodie
currently
Jon
currently what we think it is… and just explain why we think it's a good idea to not assign gender at birth.
Elodie
We know not, everybody's going to parent this way and
Jon
everyone has their own way of doing things.
Elodie
Typically we don't want Learn as They Grow to come across as preachy or prescriptive.
Jon
Yeah, exactly. Not that we're not happy to like answer questions, if anybody has some . Yeah,
Elodie
here's our
Jon
gender open episode.
Elodie
All of our thoughts… our judgmental, judgmental thoughts.
Jon
Yeah, we'll cut that.
Elodie
Okay.
Jon
Okay, let's get to the show.
JBug
Baby!
—Intro Nonsense—
Elodie
So, why are we doing??
Jon
Why are you being so pervy? Why do you want to knowwhat’s between the legs?
Everybody can just relax. Okay? We're trying.
Elodie
Pristine, This American Life quality audio.
Look at this man. I don't know. You pretty pretty masculine man
Jon
If you’re asking, I identify as a twelve-year-old prepubescent.
Elodie
No you do not!
—Episode—
Elodie
Have you given thought to like, what your gender identity is jon?
Jon
I feel very comfortably masculine or like, I feel like boy
Elodie
Yeah? You feel like a boi? Or like B-O-Y?
Jon
Not a man. A boy
Elodie
Are you a dude?
Jon
No, no
Elodie
I could see you as like… The Guy
Jon
“The Guy” from high maintenance?
Elodie
That's just how I think of your gender identity. The Guy
Jon
The guy from high maintenance is such high praise! To be compared to that man. A Joy
Elodie
“The Guy” is how, if I were to impose a gender identity on you, I'd call you “The guy”.
Jon { 2:22 }
Well see, this is why it's all silly to me
Elodie
My gender identity is Petite Retro Farm Femme.
Jon
I-uhhh… okay
Elodie
Every time I tell Jon, my gender identity, I add a new word to it.
Jon
I can't, I can't speak to this.
Elodie
No, it's my identity, of course you can't speak to it.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
although I just spoke to your gender identity. I'll let you, I'll let you keep puzzling
Jon
Also, you seem a little bit, like, disappointed with my answer.
Elodie
You know what, I think that you have a lot of privilege to not have to think too much about your gender.
Jon
But again, what is gender?
Elodie
What is it??
Jon
I don't tie my sexuality to my gender. I don't tie my body to my gender. So, what the F** is it? I don't even think it really exists. I think it's just made up nothingness… so that's it's like saying,
Elodie
It’s a cultural construct.
Jon
I might as well say I'm a Virgo, it's like doesn't mean anything to me.
Elodie
No, that's fair. I agree.
Jon
I’m a human
I'm a human who doesn't feel comfortable wearing dresses in front of other people, but I don't think that's because of a gender identity.
Elodie
I think that is your gender identity.
Jon
No, I think that I present as masculine and so, I know that in the current culture I would get pushed back if I were to wear like really girly clothes or something. And so,
Elodie
If I were to force you into a dress. You wouldn't feel like yourself, That you'd be like, oh these clothes, they don't reflect me.
Jon
I- no, no. That’s not what I'm saying.
Elodie
All right, that's fair.
Jon
I'm saying that the way it occurs to me to present to society is just without… I don't want friction, I'm not looking for attention or friction. It doesn't occur to me to wear a dress to the store, but like would a dress feel wrong to me? No, it's just, it's just clothes. It's like there's nothing but cultural baggage.
Elodie
I love that. That's really interesting, and it's a really big question. It's like, I think most people who are cis, don't necessarily know why. Say, like me, you’re assigned, female at birth. And would the girly things always have appealed to me. Or was it the path of least resistance? Was I always rewarded with privilege when I conformed to the society's idea of what gender identity I should have.
Jon
Identifying as non-binary would be tempting almost just to like buck the system as flawed as entirely bull s**
Elodie
Yes, I can see that.
Jon
Yeah. I mean I don't feel uncomfortable, identifying as man. I think I'm fine. There is no dysphoria
Elodie
But you were always rewarded for identifying that way. Because that path was the least disruptive,
Jon
absolute
Elodie
It would be disruptive and we came out as non-binary.
Jon
I was given rules, I did not want do be picked on or have friction so of course I made decisions based one
Elodie
And maybe you even codified your identity around that.
Jon { 5:19 }
Were I raised, like Junebug is being raised, I have absolutely no idea how different a person I would be.
Elodie
Well and if gender is a spectrum, then some of us might fall into a more black and white understanding of our identity. But then a lot of people might be in the gray area like you, which means you would have been more susceptible to being molded and pulled along the path of least resistance and kind of fallen into those societal expectations. It's really interesting.
Jon
Once again I think it's all made up. Like it's a tool for understanding kind of who you are and how to explain that to other people. And so I appreciate that element of it. That being said, you might as I don't even know how you might aswell say that…. anything like: I identify as a goth or really punk. Or anything
Elodie { 6:13 }
Or a Petite Retro Farm Femme?
Jon
sure. Yeah, sure.
Elodie
Thank you.
Jon
It just doesn't. It's not a thing. idk I'm off in the weeds
Elodie
But I believe giving my kid they/them pronouns is going to give them the space to think critically about themselves and have the opportunity to opt into the binary, if they, if they want that. And I think they're just really going to gain a strong sense of self and confidence in selecting their identity because they chose that
Jon
Hell yeah
Elodie
with intention
Jon
And it’s almost like bumper rails on a freaking bowling lane. I'm not giving myself as much room to make mistakes. Like I know that I would make a bunch of mistakes and I still am going to but if I can just give myself the best chance
Elodie
as a parent..
Jon
The best chance and not F and everything up all the better
Elodie
Yeah, I was really surprised at how I really needed to change how I saw my child and I needed to see them as not having a gender identity to begin with, to prevent me from falling into tropes and stereotypes around gender.
Jon
It was harder in the first few months.
Elodie
It was
Jon
It’s actually autopilot now
Elodie
Yeah. Even when I meet other kids out in the world, it's a lot easier for me to deconstruct the identities that I impose on them, based on their gender presentation. That's, I mean, that's just dictated by the clothes that their parents provide for them and, and the way they're allowed to be in the world.
Jon
Hmm.
Elodie
Speaking of clothes, it was really fun taking the baby to the thrift store.
Jon { 7:43 }
Their outfits!
Elodie
Letting them pick out their own clothes
Jon
They’re flipping off the hook. Oh my gosh. I just said off the hook. Oh God. I think that was old when I was in Middle School
Elodie
I'm sure if you were like, “no, their outfits are fire” I'm sure that's old now too
Jon
I’m sure it is. Maybe the right solution is to go so old that it could not be confused that it was actually me. So, I'm just going to start saying things like, “Groovy” and “I'm gonna boogie”
Elodie
Their outfits are radical?
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
Radical
Jon
radical
Elodie
Bodacious.
Jon
Classic
Elodie
No but like the little the little red Converse
Jon
We're gonna get our language from Encino Man.
Elodie { 8:30 }
I'm sorry, raised in a cult.
Jon
Yeah. Elodie does not get the cultural references. I'll be dropping like Simpsons, or Seinfeld lines or
Elodie
I'm sorry.
Jon
Yeah. You should be
Elodie
born under a rock.
Jon
You saw Fifth Element though
Elodie
I did. Yeah,
Jon
yeah so I mean there are a few like Choice ones that you
Elodie { 8:48 }
All of the Jim Henson stuff, it's like solidly in there.
Jon
Yeah I mean you didn't actually need to watch Seinfeld, you didn't miss anything, it’s really okay.
Elodie
No and like, I do believe that I have this outside perspective, that's not tainted with nostalgia and I can understand these cultural references
Jon
Oh dude, it's all hot garbage. I can't, I can't re-watch anything from my childhood.
Elodie
I'm so Excited to watch all the stuff that JBug gets to have be the foundation of their childhood.
Jon
Dude Steven Universe is sooo
Elodie
They get to have Steven!
Jon
is so Superior to what I was watching. Go Speed Racer, go get out of here,
Elodie
for sure.
Jon
So you want to talk about the gender neutral stuff that they/them the goodness. I think I'm almost fully desensitized to it because I don't really come up that much anymore. That initial push when you first had Juniper and I first went back to work that was probably like the hardest time for me. Just because that was when all these people who know me well enough and know you well enough to ask ask the question and then yeah, and they're bringing this excited energy to you. You have to be like I'm excited to and I'm excited that you're excited but also I've not gonna tell you S** and let me give you my nutshell on why that is and right now, it's all. Now this is 18 months later.
Elodie
I know, I feel like if I could do it all again, I'd be so much better prepared for people's questions so much better prepared to just have the right tone, the right attitude. The right words to say…
Jon { 10:27 }
You know, I was like half embarrassed in tone “So we’re during the very hippy dippy thing we’re not telling anybody the gender” and it came out in this weird way. Now I'm just like, “Oh, we're actually using they/them pronouns for them till they're a little bit older.” and I just don't even think about that. I assume that you either know what I'm talking about or you're going to look into it later. I don't feel a burden of responsibility to like justify my decisions to somebody… unless they want to know. Then I’m happy to talk aboutit
Elodie
If you've got questions yeah, let me know because I will I will get up on that soapbox and I'll tell you know exactly why we're doing it.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
So why are we doing it?
Jon { 11:11 }
<> It's just our understanding of gender in the current culture in Zeitgeist is evolving and has evolved over the last few years. Especially and I don't mean that some people haven't already had this perspective, but it's growing in awareness. We're all starting to like, get a little more awareness that oh, hey, we need to chill out on this binary, and we need to make space for individual people to be individual people, whatever that means, and if we saddle them [our babies] with expectations that are from that binary, then you have potential to damage people and not leave space for Trans people and non-binary folks. And it's just….
Elodie
It’s worth saying that throughout all of history throughout all cultures, there have always been intersex people there have always been trans people. Our gender binary in our current culture is pretty intense, and like you said, just starting to really loosen up and just about to
Jon
there's a, there's a lot of
Elodie
Make space
Jon
I'm so sorry.
Elodie
No, you're great. Go ahead
Jon
There's a lot of different ways that you can address that as a parent with a new infant. yeah this is one of the more extreme ways honestly but it's not extreme, it's just relative to the what's considered the normal way of doing it
Elodie
Definitely and our baby might have come with any variety of sex characteristics that not really anybody's business.
Jon { 12:44 }
Why don't you all just stop trying to picture infant genitalia? How about that?
Elodie
That's great idea. Great idea. Yes,
Jon
That wasn't terrible way to say it.
Elodie
Yeah, physical characteristics aside, gender is different. Gender is the way we express our identity. It has as much to do with nurture as it does with nature.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
And so, kids generally don't develop a gender identity at all until they're about two, three or four years old, once they've been in the world once they've existed, they've kind of seen the way gender is expressed in our culture, only then as far as what I believe, only then do they actually develop a gender at all. I look at babies and I'm like, you have no gender identity.
Jon
Well it’s just not tied to your physical characteristics.
Elodie
No, it's a lot more complicated than that.
Jon { 13:33 }
We've talked about it recently, you think about personality types, you think about even horoscopes to some degree are just tools for understanding yourself and then trying to advertise to others
Elodie
who you are, your identity
Jon
who am I. How I view myself and what's important to me what's whatever.
Elodie
Definitely
Jon
It's not something that is locked in.
Elodie
Yes, just a fluid,
Jon
what is your way to understand yourself and to communicate, that to others
Elodie
and you're right, that gender has as much about like, how other people perceive you as how you perceive and project your own identity into the world…. be that through clothing or through hair or…
Jon
So we've had a couple of different ways of looking at it. It's more of a tool for understanding yourself
Elodie
At the best of days.
Jon
Oh, yeah.
Elodie
And at the worst of times it's ruled that you apply to others
Jon
It is a cage
Elodie
and to that. Dictate socially, acceptable, or not acceptable behaviors
Jon
Yeah, it's telling you what you're allowed to do, rather than like what feels right to you to do
Elodie
Definitely. And our society has a pretty strict binary.
Jon
It's traditionally been tied to your body and then the role and function you have in society has been traditionally dictated by that and we don't like it, we don't like it.
So what is gender neutral parenting? For how we're doing it?
Elodie
Well, to me, I see our gender open, gender creative, gender, expansive, whatever you want to call it, our gender creative a parent is not assigning a gender to our baby
Jon
Yep, we use they/them pronouns for them.
Elodie
And I view that as, honestly as, an extension of the respectful parenting that we do.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
Which is that the same way I'm not going to tell my kid Oh they are…. “You're so smart” I'm not going to tell my kid “Oh, look, you're such a picky eater” I'm not going to tell my kid who they are
Jon
Yeah, we're not going to restrict their clothing.
Elodie
Oh yeah.
Jon
We’re not going to restrict their choices for a toys or not going to restrict what they want to watch… I mean except for like violences and stuff… but that's totally different conversation…. Not based off gender expectations. We're not going to try and regulate their emotions, based off a gender expectation, which you might not see it, but we're raised to treat boys and girls very differently on how they display their emotions.
Elodie
To avoid stereotyping them to avoid limiting them in any way, and to avoid our unconscious biases, we did try up until this point to keep it all really gender-neutral
Jon
and there are like a lot of different ways to do gender open parenting. A lot of people still assign a gender within the binary based off physical characteristics.
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
And there is… <> look, the world and the system and the culture, it all is what it is. So like I have got no shame on you deciding to do that.
Elodie
Yeah, everyone's got to find their own way.
Jon { 16:38 }
If you're willing to actually use they/them pronouns and not assign a gender and then, you know, tell everyone around that kid, who's going to be in their little village… then it's easier for me to not make as many mistakes and for other people around them not to make mistakes
Elodie
Definitely. It really does help those family members who maybe don't understand why we're doing this. But if they don't know whether or not this kid is quote unquote “allowed” to wear a dress or not then they're just automatically not going to shame a kid
Jon
You can't project, you know, a stereotype of a gender onto a kid, if you don't know… if you don't know then you can't mess up
Elodie
and you can't shame a kid for crossing a gender boundary if you don't know which side of the boundary, they're supposed to be on
Jon
And so much of it is unconscious. And so if you have this, this structure, it's just gonna help. I mean this is my impression and It has, so far, seem to, like, work out that way pretty well.
Elodie
Yeah, I do want to say that a lot of people come at the gender neutral, gender creative, whatever you want to call it, gender expansive parenting from different perspectives. Sometimes that includes what we are doing, which is to use they/them pronouns for our baby and to not disclose what variety of sex characteristics our baby might or might not have
Jon
We can get into, like, why that particular method works well for us.
Elodie
That was our choice.
Jon
It seemed to be the way we wanted to do it
Elodie
but a lot of people that would consider themselves gender creative parents and honestly what they're doing is still assigning a gender at birth but leaving the door open and making it clear to their kid that if they ever want to change their gender, that gender was just that parents best guess when they were born and that gender is a fluid thing. These parents are really careful not to shame kids for crossing these arbitrary gender roles
Jon
That's gonna look like clothing. That's gonna look like toys, specific behaviors, you think about how rough and tumble being okay for boys in circumstances that for some reason, it's not okay for girls and and even though obviously that's all it's all super arbitrary.
Elodie
and I want to be really clear. I think it is valid parenting if you assign a gender at birth.
Jon
Ohyeah. Yeah, no shame. I'm not, I'm not trying to…
Elodie
I think, especially like for parents who are already gender-nonconforming, parents people who are trans, people who are non-binary who are intersex or who have some sort of different example for their children.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
they're already showing their kids by their very existence that gender is a fluid thing. Gender is a complicated thing. Yeah people who are gender non-conforming already have to go through the world navigating, how gender non-inclusive it is
Jon
The current world is by and large set up for the binary. We are slowly making space for non-binary, like options, but, you know, as it stands like, most of the toys are still pink and blue, and are marketed as such and, you know, it's all. Yeah, and it's all very rigid.
Elodie
And other things, too, like, all the paperwork you have to fill out around having a kid. Gender inclusive Social Security is not a thing yet. But if you can make space for your kid to have gender creative play, if you're not shaming kids, who are crossing gender boundaries, if you assign a male gender to your child at birth, and then they're wearing pink, sparkly dresses, if you're not shaming them for that. There's, there's all sorts of gender creative parenting that's completely valid parenting. I'm not, I'm not here to say that you have to use they/them, pronouns
Jon
No, no, there are a lot of different ways you can approach it
Elodie
I just see it as kind of incumbent on us, some very privileged, you know, Non-trans Het-presenting folks, I do feel like we need to be making this space for intersex, non-binary and trans kid that using they/them pronouns from birth for JBug, it helps everybody, it helps when we go out into the world to take up that kind of space.
Like cis hetero people should be calling their schools and asking “are you a bathrooms inclusive school? If my child wants to go in the bathroom that's affirming to their gender. Do you support that? Do you support kids who want to change their name or their pronouns at school?” I think we should all be trying to better our pediatricians offices to have inclusive language
Jon
Bear in mind…. We're Super Lucky and we definitely live in, like, a super blue State.
Elodie
No we do,
Jon
I mean whenever you can, and again no shame
Elodie
It just shouldn't be incumbent on the trans non-binary and intersex community to constantly be fighting all of those battles that
Jon
Yeah, on the frontline
Elodie
definitely and and it's really good, you know, if you want to take your kid whether you've assigned a gender to them or not, you know, take them to a pride parade, we should all go to a Drag Brunch together. You know,
Jon
Absolutely!
Elodie
we should all be going out and showing our kids just how colorful the world can be, really.
Jon
Absolutley!
Elodie
There are two main categories for why I believe we should do gender open parenting and one is it benefits our baby and two is that it benefits the world more broadly.
Jon
People know people. People have relatives that come out as non-binary or are moving in, like, a trans direction or have friends who are. It would end up being that they would talk to us and be like, “I get how you're making space for that, now better since this other person has come out to me as being non-binary” or and they just appreciate the space that's being made for that and the normalization that comes with that and it’s one of the most gratifying things that have come from doing gender-neutral parenting for me, oh yeah, it has been really, really nice.. Oh friends at work remember?. I wont, I keep on wanting to be just like specific and using names but….
Elodie { 23:00 }
well, you can use some stories you could just say, yeah, your, your sister's children got to practice using, they/them pronouns with JBug before their cousin came out as a non-binary, those kids were just prepared
Jon
April. At work
Elodie
Representation matters
Jon
Had a neice I think? or an nephe-
Jon and Elodie
A Nibbling!
Jon
who was moving in a different direction and April was just like, “I'm so grateful that I got to, like, think about this beforehand, because I knew you guys. And so, I had to think about all of these pronouns”
Elodie
“And suddenly I was the cool aunt, who already could say them in a singular way.”
Jon
And I'm not, I'm really not trying to like toot my own horn, so much as it's just,it just this feels good.
Elodie
It’s been rewarding
Jon
Yeah, I'm not somebody who makes it out to the protest, like I should,
Elodie
Well you do
Jon
I'm not somebody who makes the phone calls like I should
Elodie
Well you have
Jon
I know I have, I'm just saying, I'm not always on top of it, as I… so this has been a thing where I've been able to feel like we've made a, we've been able to make just a little bit of a difference in nudge the giant meteor just a little bit, to get it on a different course. That feels good.
Elodie
I agree.
The bigger concept of how this is important to make space for intersex kids, to have whatever kind of identity they want and for trans and non-binary kids to have more representation.
Jon { 24:30 }
Well this is mostly for JBug
Elodie
This is also beneficial to our individual child.
Jon
I would say the majority of the decision is to be for JBug. So that That they can be themselves
Elodie
Yeah, I agreed. So, now that we're done talking about the big broader picture,
Jon
in addition to that, it's been really nice to be helpful
Elodie
There are so many benefits to our child when we do not assign them a gender at birth. It just gives kids so much confidence in themselves because their identity is internally generated rather than externally imposed.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
So what do I mean by that? That to me means that we haven't given them a blue or pink lens that they start to look at the world through and you know as a little kid conforming to societal expectations, conforming to what your parents call you is a big part of their development
Jon
If you're given a pattern that you're supposed to follow, then you're going to start gauging every single choice you make based off whether or not you're fitting into that pattern, and evolutionarily, that is for security for safety. You want to be safe within the group.
Elodie
For your secure attachment
Jon
If you think that this is the correct path for you, that that is the rule that you need to adhere to than everything is going to get funneled through that.
Elodie
Definitely.
Jon
In order to ensure your security, whereas if you don't give them this rigid model, well then, well then you can make decisions based off what feels right and you know what is what's making you feel empowered and happy in the world
Elodie
And you know, you’re go out in the world and you're going to run into these stereotypes about what a good girl is in our society, what a good boy does.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
So when you assign one of these binary genders to your kid, they have to run up against these societal expectations at a really young age and like kids become obsessed with gender very early on because our culture is obsessed with gender.
Jon
Absolutely.
Elodie
It seems like this highly important thing to kids because we are constantly labeling everything as he or she. When a child is assigned, a gender pronoun they just begin to move through the whole world, putting things into boxes of for them or not for them based on what society says, is allowed based on their assigned gender
Jon
And kids are smart.
Elodie
mmmhmm.
Jon
So, I mean, they pick up on patterns, really, really fast
Elodie
And even despite our effort as parents and caregivers to like, deconstruct individual stereotypes for them
Jon
and again there's a lot of different ways you can approach it
Elodie
but it is a more hands-off way. Honestly. There's so many different ways to combat conformity, but it's tricky because that drive to please and conforme, it's a natural part of child development. So of course, we can actively help to prevent a gendered child from painting their world pink or blue, but for a more passive parenting style, we decided to just not assign a pink or blue lens to begin with.
Jon
It's like easier to not mess up that way.
Elodie
Yeah. No, I agree well and then I don't have to like be this annoying parent that pulls their child aside and is like, “I know that your aunt just called you a very pretty girl, but it's really important that you understand that your external appearance is not the most important thing about you…” and it just seems like so much work.
Jon
It's always interesting when people get uncomfortable with not knowing
Elodie
Oh they do.
Jon
It's like this moment of like “but then what if I will say the wrong thing or how do I, how do I guess? How do I guess what to say?” it's like, you don't have to guess anything.
Elodie
Yeah, it’s fine this is just a baby
Jon
you could actually just talk to kid or about a kid.
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
Well, it's just like hilarious that there has to be this way to talk to one or the other and like, as if you can't just talk to a kid without that coming into it
Elodie
Well and
Jon
Sorry, go ahead.
Elodie
I always try to tell them: this is June. This is a person their name is June we use they/them pronouns until they tell us otherwise
Jon
and go figure right.
Elodie
People do find! They don't have to be like “Hello little boy.” They can be like “hi June, how are you today? It's really nice outside, isn't it?” You know and I think it's kind of a gift
Jon
but how will I know whether or not to call them pretty or handsome?
Elodie
It puts them off script and suddenly this person gets to interact with June in a gender creative way
Jon
Expand their minds!
Elodie { 29:11 }
And most of the time it goes really well.
Jon
Most of the time. There are a couple of funny exceptions, but
Elodie
You can't, we just can't change right now, how gender the world is, and kids will encounter stereotypes. But if they haven't been told which to apply to themselves, you know, to fit in this, this externally imposed identity, then they they don't get into the Habit quite so early, and they'll often think more critically about the validity of these stereotypes because they no longer accurately fit their experience of the world.
I do think that is worth saying there's also the experience of trans kids. You know, gender dysphoria is is a real struggle…
Jon
Gender dysphoria is a product of being assigned into it a gender.
It's unlikely that somebody is going to be trans. It’s a pretty low percentage of the population, not to minimize it and it's still a significant number of people. But it doesn't matter that it's unlikely. If it were the case that I was going to pin a bunch of baggage and that they were gonna have to come up against this wall of like, “I don't think that I feel the way that I'm being told, I'm supposed to feel” and, like, all of the conflict.
Elodie
And I mean, again, you can, you can tell your child. “Hey, I have, I made my best guess when you were born that this is the identity that you will have.” Personally I don't like the way that actually subtly pressures a kid to conform to that identity…
Jon
We are not trying to S** on people who assign gender
Elodie
Totally, that is totally your choice, your prerogative. There are a lot of really compelling reasons why you might still do that.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
For me. I don't feel like it is my job to tell my child who they are, it is my child’s job to show me who they are. And it's my job to just embrace them.
Personally, if my child is trans, I just can't… Stand the idea…. personally for me of having my kids say, “Mama. How did you get it so wrong? How could you not see who I was? How did you tell me? I was one thing and be completely wrong about me.” There are a lot of things that are very similar when people reflect on when they were being misgendered by their parents.
Jon
It's important, however, you're going to address it. It's important to make space for that even if you're not gonna, even if you don't want to do like fully gender-neutral parenting.
Elodie
mmhmm.
Jon
The more you steer away from focusing, too much on gendered, it's just in general, it's only going to be helpful.
Elodie
Minimize your gendered language when you talk about other people in the world and you will minimize your chance o,f of stereotyping people.
Jon
and good luck to you.
Elodie
Yeah. Best of luck, you know it’s hard
Jon
The world is set up how it is. It's hard, it's hard.
Elodie
Yeah. So we can talk all day about how we don't want to project an identity onto our kid. And that these two binary pronouns are essentially that it's limiting its putting something on them that wasn't there to begin with. But what would you say to someone who says? “Oh, but they/them pronouns. That's that's just assigning non-binary-ism to a baby. You're still assigning a gender”.
Jon { 32:33 }
I would say, we're not assigning them, they them, they/them applies to everyone. like I can refer to a he or she as they or them as well, and we do all the time
Elodie
“someone forgot their umbrella!”
Jon
“Oh, they forgot their umbrella. We didn't know who it was” completely open
Elodie
“Are they back from the store yet?”
Jon
It's an open category. It's not a closed category. The binary, those are inherently closed categories. You are a man or a woman
Elodie
There actually isn't a lot of representation for non-binary people. So in that it's open-ended, there are so many ways to be They, whereas to be he or she gets very prescriptive, very quickly.
Jon
It is not giving them a box.
Elodie
Yeah, it's not a third box. Yeah, it is a huge umbrella term
Jon
It is, It is a non box
Elodie
Every non-binary person you encounter is going to be uniquely themselves
Jon
Picture, two boxes
Elodie and Jon
and then everything outside the boxs…
Jon
Is Non-binary, it's it's bigge
Elodie
Almost by definition, I'd agree with that.
Jon
Yeah anyway, that's probably good
Elodie
Yeah, I agree. This felt this felt nice
Jon
So what’s up up? What you got on the list? You got a list over there?
Elodie
No that was it, we got it all. Yeah
Jon
Shoot!
Clap of a High Five!
Elodie
So if there's anything we didn't get, I'm just going to record it and sneak it in there
Jon
Oh there is so much more to talk about with this stuff. I've got like, things that went bad, not that, it went that bad, everybody's trying to be supportive, you know, everybody who's trying to do. It’s just complicated when you're pushing up against a system that is so established so ingrained
Elodie
When you raise kids this way, they just, it's amazing.
Jon
I think it's worth it
Elodie
the way it touches, their families, their communities and then, of course, for themselves, the kind of confidence, they have
Jon
I won't pretend it's not intimidating. So good on you for considering it.
Elodie
Well, yeah, totally. We'll have another podcast episode where we talk about yours and my progression. I understand we just talked about the reasons why we decided to parent this way, but what was it actually like to make that decision? And the way we had to confront our ideas of having a kid, our ideas of gender and that path, that journey to get to having JBug and and going with the they/them pronouns
Jon
I love that kid, having such a good time.
Elodie
Yep. So cute in their new clothes as they picked out themselves!!
Jon
Oh dude. I can't, I can't handle it. It was particularly choice articles of clothing: The the pants with the rainbow stripes we got the legit Jimi, Hendrix t-shirt, the hoodie, good stuff but not just that it's the shift from like very clearly like
Jon and Elodie
baby clothes
Jon
to like clothes that look like grown and and it just really changed my image of them overnight.
Elodie
Yeah, you got your first pair of jeans!
Jon
man. I could take that baby to a show. Now we're gonna go to a concert
Elodie
Yeah, we've got Pride coming up in just over a month
Jon
so that'd be fun.
Elodie { 35:55 }
We’ll go to the parade. Will go do some fun stuff out and about
Jon
we gotta wrap it up. We definitely gotta go shower. Thanks.
Elodie
Love you.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
good job out there.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
you’re trying
Jon
Oh we’re all just trying our best
Elodie { 36:09 }
let us know if you need help, you know?
Jon
Yeah, for sure. Happy to let you know what our experience is anyway with it
Elodie
Mmmhmm, and we will continue to do so.
Jon
Alright that's all for now.
-—Outro Nonsense—
Elodie
this is before we had a baby monitor and April was our baby monitor,
but she was, you know, supportive from the get-go at one point. She came to you and she said, hey, thank you, deeper understanding, my nibbling came out as non-binary and I felt more ready
Jon
Like she had a little bit more information on that
Elodie
“I felt more ready to embrace this identity shift”
-—Proper Outro—
Jon
Hey, thank you for listening. Our intro outro music is by MOOW. Follow us on social media and give us nice reviews. We love you.
Elodie
We Love you
--- End of transcript ---
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