Will: Welcome back to the Prisoners of Hope Podcast, a resource of Help The Persecuted. Telling the stories of God's work among the persecuted church. My name is Will Carlisle, and today's episode is a continuation of Josh and I's conversation with Salam and Samar. We recommend that you listen to part one of this conversation on our podcast channel before today's episode if you have not yet done so. Please enjoy the rest of [00:00:30] our conversation with Salam and Samar, Evangelizing Al-Qaeda.
Josh: When did the Lord tell you all to go back to the Middle East?
Samar: Okay. That was a story.
Will: I was going to ask that as well.
Samar: We started going to church. We loved our church so much. We loved serving the Lord. So we couldn't do much because of the accent and the language. So I was helping with Sunday School, dealing with kids, or [00:01:00] doing the Awana stuff. Just simple, I would say not very complicated, not standing and sharing. So we reached a place where we said, "Lord, we know we can do much more back home, and our heart is right there, and you know it." So one night we knelt in front of the Lord and everything was fine. We had our [00:01:30] own house, both of us are working our jobs, our kids speak English more than Arabic, so everything was settled.
So our prayer was very neutral. We say, "Lord, we would love to go back, but if you want us to go back, open the door. If the door doesn't open, we are fine." That's it. And within 24 hours, we got a phone call. [00:02:00] And the phone call said, "Are you guys ready?" One of our friends, "Are you guys willing to go back to the Middle East and serve the Lord?" So that was it. We knew that that was the place, and we went from there.
Will: Before y'all prayed about that, had anyone else reached out about y'all going back? Or was that kind of like the first opportunity?
Samar: No, that was really the out of nowhere, just-
Will: No, that's awesome.
Samar: We felt inside that there [00:02:30] was this calling that, "Lord, we can do better. We know we can. Many people here, you can reach each other, you can do a lot. Many people in the churches, they can go and witness for Americans." But for us, we know that there aren't that many people in the Middle East that can do, because Christianity, the percentage is not big in all of the [00:03:00] Middle East countries. Christians are usually 1%, 2%.
Josh: Yeah. So this person who called you, I think I know who it is.
Samar: Yeah.
Josh: But this role that they had for you is what we call follow-up, right?
Samar: Yes.
Josh: So it was media follow-up, which is kind of Salam and Samar's specialty.
Will: I love it.
Josh: I often tell people, having been come out of Christian media in the Middle East, you have kind of [00:03:30] two layers to it. You have audience relations, which might be an immediate triage of response of somebody who's listening to a radio program, or watching a television program. There's that kind of immediate call center response. And then there's the deeper follow-up, which is where we want to really get to know someone, and get face-to-face with them, and then get them plugged into a small group or small underground church, or aboveground church. So I'm curious, just your call [00:04:00] in that, your passion in that, as the Lord has really given you great instincts and a passion for that follow-up ministry. Just talk a little bit about that.
Salam: Yeah, I feel like because I grew up among many Muslims, especially in the school where I was, I can relate to them, I can understand them, and it was planned. It's the Lord's plan for me. So [00:04:30] whenever I sit with any Muslims, I don't have this kind of fear that he's an alien coming from... No, no, no. He's like, we're living in the same country. We share the same culture. We eat the same food, we have the same habits, almost. The only thing is how we look to God.
And Muslims, by the way, they want to worship God. Generally speaking, they want to worship God. So they are faithful and they have the zeal to know God, but they don't know more than this level. [00:05:00] So we were blessed to know that God, this level, He broke it and He came to us to reach us. They don't know that part. And for them, like God to become human, it's like, "Why did He do that?" Because he loved us. That's the only link which was missing. He loves us. He did whatever it takes Him to do to save us. And He came to us.
When they see the difference [00:05:30] in our lives, they are in, what do you call? They're different. Why are you different? One person said, "I hate you. Why do you love me?" I said, "It's not the love that I have, it's the love of the Lord that put in my heart to you. So you're a human being. I was lost like you, and I knew the truth." So the way I look at them, they are victims of the ideology that the society put on them. So when we look at Muslims, [00:06:00] even like, I want to tell my fellow American friends here, "They are not enemies. They were in the same boat like you were before, before knowing the Lord Jesus Christ, you name it, whatever religion. But they were lost, and now we are found in Jesus."
So they need just a straw to hang on. Where's that straw? So we are the lifeguards to them. Lifeguard don't stand still while somebody's drowning, you should do something about it. [00:06:30] You don't throw the manual to them, read the manual how to swim. You jump in and you bring them out. You know what I mean?
Will: Yeah.
Salam: So you can't save people and being distant from them. You have to be with them in the mud, and take them out one at a time. And we don't save, the Lord saves. We are His arm in this earth, so He's using us.
Josh: That's an important distinction because we would all agree that media is very powerful. In fact, we're using a medium right [00:07:00] now to communicate to people. And until my dying day, I will support Christian media. But there is a lifeguard aspect to what we need to be doing, which is, we do need to roll up our sleeves and actually get on the ground and be with people, not just from a broadcast perspective. And that's really what led all of us to work together through Help The Persecuted, was this desire to see us do more. [00:07:30] In terms of life-guarding. Tell us about the transition from media follow-up to the Help The Persecuted.
Salam: Of course, media's reaching many people. Social media is doing excellent job. You know what I mean? And making things available for people who wants to search the Bible application, which is on many people's phones now, even though some countries are hindering that or blocking it. But still, there's ways to reach and [00:08:00] to know. But those people never... Christianity is not a theory. It's like a life to be lived. So they need to see somebody living it. Because even if they believed in Jesus Christ through social media, they don't know how to live the life. They don't have an example in front of them. So it's very good to integrate them to a small group. Many underground churches.
The pleasant news is the Middle East is filled with converts who love the Lord at this time. [00:08:30] Maybe they don't have big, huge churches or bells ringing on the towers of the churches, and the steeples, but they're worshiping in different small groups. And people come alongside them. Christians, they are few in numbers. So we pray for the Lord to send more workers for the harvest. Because when you start reaching one-to-one, living their crisis. Because after they come to the Lord, that's the challenge starts there. [00:09:00] The face is the easiest part in this formula. What comes after the person loses their family, their spouses. Children are taken from them, kicked out from homes. Employers kick them out.
I mean, sometimes governments might put them in prison or jail. They lose their rights. Many people lost their inheritance. They became poor, and they were really in good situation financially before. And those are educated people, respected people in the community, [00:09:30] and now they are treated like, sorry, filth or whatever in the community. And do you leave them in this situation? You tell them about the theoretical Jesus, or in theory, Jesus is unique, and you'll live a victorious life with Him, but he's not seeing this victorious life. He's like stepped on by the society. So how can you lift this person up? That's what we do. Come alongside them, pray with them, see the exact needs they have, and try to solve it. Sometimes [00:10:00] it's financial, finding a job, opening a small project for-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:10:04]
Salam: Sometimes it's financial, finding a job, opening a small project for them, relocating them, renting a house for them until they can stand on their feet again. Many people got beaten, and they are wounded. I'm dealing with a person now in one of the countries, he's still under treatment. His colon is very much irritated, because he was in hunger for three, four days in a row by his father hanging him on in [00:10:30] the roof with a rope until he dies. He didn't die. The Lord saved him.
Josh: Wow.
Salam: Now this guy is suffering and struggling. We have many people that need a lot of medical attention.
Josh: Goodness.
Salam: Can we leave them? Many of them don't have insurance at all. And it's expensive. Americans know better than anyone that medical things are expensive. Help them with everything. We are like their father, mother, brother, sister. And if they don't find this family [00:11:00] again, they feel that they lost and they never replaced this loss. But they need to find that there's a replacement in the church, in the Christian community. They have a new family now. And one person said recently, just last week, "Without you, I don't know what I'll do." I said, "Without the Lord. Don't say without us, without the Lord." we are nothing. He said, "No, but I mean you-"
Josh: You're the Lord's hands and feet.
Salam: "You show me the Lord." Yeah, you show me the [00:11:30] Lord in a practical way.
Josh: Samar, Salam did a good job of explaining the general plight of the persecuted. But women in particular are maybe perhaps more vulnerable. They would be absolutely more vulnerable, because if they come to Christ, they don't have the protection of their husband, and ultimately are treated as half of a man anyway. [00:12:00] So what does it look like for the life of a female convert?
Samar: It's definitely harder than the man, because the Middle East, North Africa society, it's a man's society. So woman is always vulnerable. She faces a lot of difficult emotional distress difficulties that she doesn't know what to do. And as [00:12:30] Salam said, I just want to add something to what he said. Because of the economic situation now, it's really very bad. After Corona, after the pandemic in all countries that we are serving, the situation is very bad. No work. We have a lot of refugees, persecuted Christian just fleeing [00:13:00] from their homes to different countries. They need help. So I see the need. It's even more now. We are just seeing it more and more, that more people need help. And for the woman, usually, the husband leaves them with the children. Sometimes they take the children, but most of the times they don't want even to have any connections with their own children, because they [00:13:30] say this is a punishment for them.
Go find work and find food for them yourself. So one of the last stories I can share with you that happened is a lady, she lived in a very fanatic Muslim home and she found out that her husband works with ISIS. So at the beginning, he didn't want to take his children. Then [00:14:00] we had to move her from this specific, I can name maybe the country, it's Turkey. So he left her and he told her, "I will kill you if I see you anywhere around here." So by the help of the Lord, we managed that she went to one of our safe houses in another country, and she stayed for months just trying to get stable again [00:14:30] and be able to face all these difficulties. But when I met with her, the joy she had was amazing. She said, "I'm willing to leave six children." In this case, it was the opposite. He wanted to take the children just to punish her. Six children. But she said, the joy I have now, I can leave everybody and just be with the Lord and have the peace of just being with Him.
Josh: [00:15:00] Richard Dawkins, one of his big critiques of religion is essentially that it's a coping mechanism. It's how people get peace of mind, and it's not realistic. And I think that's a very western way of thinking about it, because these people you're talking about, it's not a very good coping mechanism [00:15:30] if that's all it is, because it's so costly. So in response to that, why do people choose Jesus when it costs them so much? Why do these people choose Jesus?
Salam: If we can tell that how the Lord is working in the Middle East, one guy, he's a theologian, he's a friend of mine. He said [00:16:00] we should do the evangelism work. I said, yes, I agree. But if you are few, and if you don't exist in certain country, who will do it? Many people are seeing visions and dreams in the Muslim world. Whenever they pray, they want to seek the truth, the Lord intervene himself in a vision or dream. But of course there's a process, then discipleship and you have to work with those people. But they will come to you [00:16:30] seeing a vision or dream. I remember in Algeria, for example, the whole village saw the same dream, the same night. And they called the station that I was working in. All the calls started coming from the same village. They saw exactly the same dream of Jesus.
Josh: Wow.
Salam: The Lord saved the whole village in one night. So it's like too good to be true? Maybe for our brains, yes, they cannot comprehend it, but the Lord is in the business to save [00:17:00] people. So he doesn't want to leave people go.
Josh: Praise God.
Salam: I mean for hell for eternity. He wants to save them. Those who are seekers will find him. And as the Bible says that Jesus said, ask for me and you'll find me, or seek me and you'll find me. And those who are seeking the truth, they're finding him in the Middle East and now more than anytime else, because the other ideologies are falling apart and proving to be not solid, not trustworthy. [00:17:30] And those who think in logic, just use their brains some, they will leave it. They will leave their ideologies. But the risk here is if they start seeing that God does not exist, the fear here, it's like putting a rag underneath the feet of those seekers of the truth. If you pull the rug and there's no other rug to stand on, that's the risk.
So Christianity should be available in the States, in the Middle [00:18:00] East, wherever. We should be available for those people asking. If they leave something, they need a replacement. Like somebody like a heavy smoker, he wants to quit smoking, they'll tell him about chewing a gum or whatever. There's something to replace it. You can't leave him without anything or leave her without anything. So in Islam, they are seeking, the Lord is appearing to them. But where are the role of the church again, when the church is very minimum in number? So that's why we ask many missionaries to come, many people to stand with [00:18:30] us. We cannot do the job alone. We need help, really. All the time, we need help. And whatever help we can utilize there, because the harvest is plentiful and we're seeing many people coming to the Lord. That's the good news, because the ideologies are falling apart in front of us. But are we ready? That's the challenge.
Josh: Wow.
Samar: To answer your question more to it, if you ask them, like the lady I shared with you, she [00:19:00] would tell you it's worth it. It's worth it to leave everything and be with Jesus. And many, many of the people you meet, you ask them, is it worth it really to live with Jesus and leave everything? And their answer always is, "Yes, it is worth it. And we are so glad we did it because we don't have a life. Now, at least we know that we have a life in Jesus."
Salam: [00:19:30] Many people came to the Middle East through examples. I know a guy who's in Yemen, and this guy was visiting a doctor. This doctor is Korean, working in Yemen. He's no more working there, so I can share the story. And when he left, he said, "This guy is different. The doctor is different in the capital of Yemen." Why is he different? He start asking him, asking about what he believes in. And the doctor was Christian. This [00:20:00] guy is my arm in Yemen now. He's helping me.
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:20:04]
Salam: This guy is my arm in Yemen now. He's helping me. He loves the Lord. Last time, he said like, "I shared the gospel with all my village, even the mayor of the village," or the town where he lives. Example, the good example is leading many people to Christ as well. Media, good example of Christians living the Christian life. It's very important.
Josh: Yeah. So it's the work that, I guess what I would say, is the outright [00:20:30] work of the spirit, like the dreams and visions in cooperation with the example of the church and the love of the saints.
Salam: Sure.
Josh: Yeah.
Salam: Sure thing.
Samar: That's why even simple stuff like we need to share with others, Muslims. I know in the States there are many Muslims moving to here. This last story that I've been dealing with, she accepted the Lord just she was at the hospital. In the [00:21:00] hospital, her daughter was dying. One of the nurses told her that go to a church and pray for your daughter. Actually, that's all what it took, just go and pray in a church. They knew that Jesus can heal your daughter. And she did and that's what happened. Her daughter was healed. She started reading the Bible. She heard the message and she accepted the Lord. Until now she [00:21:30] is serving the Lord.
Josh: [inaudible 00:21:31]. Can we talk about this? Why are we seeing so many manifestations of miraculous things in the Middle East, in the Muslim world, whether it be dreams, visions, healings? I'm saying this as somebody who comes from a reformed background who generally, there's kind of a cessationist view here where this stuff doesn't happen anymore. But it's too big. It's [00:22:00] too common for it to be waved off.
Salam: First of all, we like to put God in a box. I don't know why. He's bigger [inaudible 00:22:11].
Josh: We're good at trying to do that.
Salam: Yeah. I'm not the person that will encourage that you have to see a dream to get saved. No, it's not like this at all, but I realize that in areas where they believe the Bible has been corrupted, it's happening the most, the visions and dreams.
Josh: Oh, interesting.
Salam: [00:22:30] As we see in Acts, all what the apostles were doing and the disciples in evangelizing, reaching people to Christ, the Lord was empowering their message by miracles. They believe in the teaching. For Muslims and others, they don't believe in the teaching itself. They believe it was changed or corrupted, played with by some people that have certain interests. So if they don't rely on the word of God, [00:23:00] at least the vision and dream will put them back on track to believe that this word is the right word of God. I have this kind of sense of humor sometimes with my friend who's from Yemen. The Lord put him in my face. This guy was not a practicing Muslim or anything. He's very educated and coming from very good family there. I said to him, "You said a light appeared to you at night [00:23:30] while you are sitting." Of course, his friend shared with him that he became Christian and he's from the same country and he started thinking for himself. Are you crazy? Why did you come? And he faced him.
Then at night, he saw the light and he said, "Why this light? Don't you think like it's another kind of important person that appeared to you?" He looked at me in the face. He said, "Is it a joke for you?" I said, "No, no, I'm asking you. How do you say that it's Jesus that appeared [00:24:00] to you?" He said, "There's no light, but in Jesus Christ. The world is living in darkness. I live the war in Yemen. People are dark. The light only comes from God, so Jesus is God. As simple as this."
Josh: Wow.
Salam: Simple logic. He's a lawyer.
Samar: Yeah. Well, many of the stories we've heard, I personally, heard so many stories of people [00:24:30] who came to the Lord from visions and dreams. In every story, the main cause for that, it's a zeal inside of the person, that the person wants to know the truth. They just pray, "Which way is the right way? God, show me yourself," and that's when they have the dream. It's in areas where there aren't a lot of media, aren't a lot of [00:25:00] Christians in the area. So these people really wants to know the truth and that's when they see the visions. Then they see the vision, they believe, but they keep looking. God keeps working with them, sending them people to talk to them, starting from a church, small church. So there is no way. Again, I'm from a Baptist church, really all my [00:25:30] life, but from the stories I've heard, I can't even count the number. When the people tell me the story, you know it's genuine. They're not making up. It's not something that they made up. It is the real thing.
Josh: Do either of you recall growing up in the '70s, I hate to date you, but growing up in the '70s, '80s-
Samar: Well, '70s good.
Josh: ... do you recall people, Muslims having dreams and visions at that time or do you [00:26:00] recall having a Muslim background person come into your church?
Samar: Yes.
Salam: There were very few. Visions and dreams, no, I didn't hear about maybe the last 20 years or 15 years. It's happening more. This is, for me, is it like the Lord is coming soon maybe so he's accelerating the process of people coming to him? Everything is possible. You know what I mean? As long as the vision and dream does not contradict with the Bible.
Josh: [00:26:30] Amen. Correct.
Salam: So many people, the Lord appear to them like a light and he told many of them, "I'm the truth, light, and way."
Samar: That's the verse, yes.
Salam: It's the same verse from the Bible. One person, even the Lord handed him in Egypt the Bible itself in his hand. He said, "Read it. This is the word of life for you." I was sharing with my American friend the other day what happened. He said, "What version of the Bible was that?"
Josh: [00:27:00] King James. That's hilarious. I think it's a really interesting observation because I think people like me, especially with critical minds, cynically critical, you can almost get frustrated with God and be like, "Well, why aren't there dreams and visions? I want [00:27:30] a dream or a vision."
Samar: I've said it many, many times.
Josh: Yeah. But I think it's such an interesting point that just from your real life experience, you see it happening in places where the scripture is very hard to access or inaccessible and where even Christian witness is very suppressed. So it actually reveals part of the character of God, God's kindness that [00:28:00] he's not haphazardly performing miracles, but he's really reaching out to people in mercy who otherwise would have no other way. So that's a very helpful way to look at it.
Salam: His kindness always leads us to repentance,-
Josh: Amen. Amen.
Salam: ... to know him. Yeah.
Josh: The title of this podcast is Prisoners of Hope. Will really helped me [00:28:30] with that title from Zechariah 9, where the Lord refers to the Israelites as prisoners of hope and that he will give them a double portion. Let me ask you this. How would you all consider yourselves to be prisoners of hope?
Samar: From what we saw personally, since ISIS came and did everything that they did [00:29:00] and what we've seen in the Middle East, how they invaded many Christian cities and we had many, many people that were persecuted and they moved to different countries in the Middle East, whether Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, the first thing you would think that those Christians, and most of them, by the way, they're nominal Christians, [00:29:30] they're just Christian by names, you will say that these people will not follow Christ. They will say, "Why would God allow something like this to happen to us?" and that's going to lead them far from the Lord. But what we've been seeing the last few years is completely the opposite from Christians and from Muslims. That is hope that we've prayed for it so, so many times. We prayed that [00:30:00] we want to see revival in the Middle East. We want-
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:30:04]
Samar: We want to see revival in the Middle East. We want Muslims to come to Christ. We want Christians, nominal Christians to know the real God. And the last few years we've seen that in a way that even exceeded our expectations. And for me, this is the hope that we are looking for, and God is encouraging us to keep going. Those people need to know more about Christ. We want more people [00:30:30] from the same country. Through the ministry, we want to help people to stand on their feet and to stay in their countries, and to reach more and more people to Christ.
Salam: In the Bible, apostle Paul said, if we have hope only in this life, we are very miserable actually, because this life is going to go. So we are bringing a heavenly hope, godly hope for people [00:31:00] where it will rescue them, and it will stay with them till eternity. So they will pass through even the death experience peacefully until they go and live their eternal life.
So this is an everlasting hope that we don't promise people about hope that is not real or fake. It's authentic hope that can set the captive free, and can give us eternal [00:31:30] vision, eternal perspective. And we look at the people in the different glasses now, the glasses that all those people will go to hell if I didn't save them. That's the hope that we have. We can take them from where they are and put them on other platform, the heavenly platform.
Josh: I'm thinking, I pulled up Hebrews 10 where it says, "You joyfully accepted the plundering [00:32:00] of your property since you knew that you yourselves had a better position and an abiding one, a better possession and an abiding one." When I'm with y'all and when I hear people say, I thank God for ISIS because had it not been for ISIS, my eyes would not have been open to the gospel. What do you think it is in the West that doesn't make Jesus feel like a worthy possession, an abiding possession or a better possession?
Salam: [00:32:30] Materialistic life. People hang up to things that don't last. You know what I mean? They think they are, like having a home, having a car, this is all temporary. It doesn't give you the eternal peace. Many people have all of the above, but they don't have peace because they don't know the living God. You know what I mean?
So they're living to die. But if you have God himself, you are living to live. It's like the whole perspective [00:33:00] is different. And I think without temptation, without trials, your faith is not tested. Sometimes we need our faith to be tested, our trust in the Lord to be tested. I don't wish Americans to go into wars or anything like that, like the Middle East, but maybe other ways so the Lord will awaken many people that are taking it for free.
And like the idea [00:33:30] here, I respect you so I don't force my belief on you. Don't force your belief. But if you respect me, save me. Don't force it. Of course, you don't need to be rude by forcing your [inaudible 00:33:43] on me or whatever, but if you really care for me, show it to me. My friend asked me once, "What shall I do to my Muslim friend? I play soccer with him. Every weekend, we play soccer." It's in the southern part of the United States, which is good. Soccer is becoming famous now here.
[00:34:00] And I said, "Have you ever thought of bringing him a Bible in Arabic and put it under your Christmas tree and invite him for Christmas to have a meal with you and he'll find his gift under the tree?" Said, "I never thought about it." So simple things. If you're in the supermarket, you saw like a woman covered and she's in queue to pay at the cashier, why don't you offer her one of your chocolates that you bought and invite her? If you're like, your kids are playing in the park, [00:34:30] get to know this Muslim lady. Talk to her, this Muslim neighbor, whatever. Get to know. They don't bite. They are not harmful. They are victims of that ideology. Just rescue them.
Josh: All right, well, what a powerful word to end on from Salam. Just rescue them.
Josh, this conversation has stuck with me, and specifically [00:35:00] the parts from today's episode, talking about God's work in the Muslim world, how it looks so unique from America in the Western world, but it's not just arbitrary or for fun, but God is building his church in these unlikely places and he's doing marvelous, miraculous things to do that. And just a great insight into God's heart for the nation.
So did you have any other closing thoughts?
Josh: No, I love that their [00:35:30] DNA is to rescue people all the time everywhere, no matter where they are, whether it's a grocery store or whether it's in the country they live in the Middle East. It's just part of who they are. And you can't sort of really separate that from them. I think it's a great exhortation for us in the West to live that way, to live in a posture of wanting to rescue the lost.
And [00:36:00] that looks different for us, I think in the West. We have a more self worship kind of a Western rationalism. It's different. In the East, everything is a religious discussion because in Islam, religion and politics are the two sides of the same coin. We experience it a little bit different in a postmodern kind of...
Josh: Absolutely. And it is just good to have people like Salam and Samar in different contexts that are modeling the same heart [00:36:30] that we ought to embody regardless of our context.
So I hope you were encouraged by this conversation and edified. And if you would like to come alongside and join the work of Help the Persecuted in preserving Christ Church, in furthering his kingdom overseas, then visit hgp.org/give.