Here After with Megan Devine: Recent Episodes
iHeartPodcasts
Listen to best-selling author and psychotherapist Megan Devine explore one of the trickiest parts of being human: what to do when life goes horribly wrong. There’s a lot of talk out there about mental health and the importance of seeking help - but who helps the helpers? If you work with people in emotional pain, you’ll know how hard it is to come up with the right things to say. Get practical insight and advice from psychotherapist and grief advocate Megan Devine on Here After, the weekly show from the author of It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
Can you hide in plain sight?
From trans beauty pageants in the Philippines, to the catwalks of New York City fashion week, to the Ted Talk mainstage – Filipina-American model Geena Rocero has lived an astounding life. This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the author of Horse Barbie: A Memoir shares what it costs to suppress your true self in order to find safety and success, and why joy is powerful medicine.
Geena Rocero is a trans advocate, speaker, and author of the new book, Horse Barbie.
In this episode we cover:
- Why do we have to talk about gender all the time anyway?
- How can parents support trans children?
- The history of trans beauty pageants in the Philippines
- Why joy - and a sense of humor - are real survival tools
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related Episodes:
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
If I Survived, You Can Too! Author Emi Nietfeld on the Hollowness of the Transformation Narrative
Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling
About our guest:
Geena Rocero is a Filipina-American model, public speaker, author, and trans rights advocate. Ms. Rocero made history as the first trans woman ambassador for Miss Universe Nepal, and the first trans Asian Playboy Playmate of the Year. Her TED Talk, “Why I Must Come Out,” has been viewed over 3.7 million times. She’s an advisory board member of SeeHer, a global coalition working to increase representation and accurate portrayal of all women and girls in marketing, media, and entertainment.
She’s spoken at the White House and United Nations, and has been featured on CNN, MSNBC, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, Vanity Fair, and Variety. Her book Horse Barbie: A Memoir was named one of the Best Memoirs of 2023 by Elle Magazine. Find her @geenarocero on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Watch Geena’s TED Talk “Why I Must Come Out”
Read Geena’s book - Horse Barbie: A Memoir
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Have you ever put on a face mask, expecting it to solve all your mental health problems?
That seems…unrealistic, but it’s what self-care marketing tells us: get your self-care right, and all your difficulties will evaporate.
This week on It’s OK, Dr. Pooja Lakshmin, author of Real Self-Care, breaks down what “self-care” actually means when we’re living in a complex, capitalistic world. It’s an exploration of grief, burnout, and exhaustion, and what it takes to care for yourself inside systems that repeatedly ignore their part in your suffering.
In this episode we cover:
- Why self-care doesn’t work
- How hope is different than optimism
- Does looking for your own answers mean you have to do things alone?
- Accepting help as a bid for connection
- How Dr. Lakshmin’s definition of boundaries can help you practice real self-care
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow the show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief
Related episodes:
Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly
Living with Chronic Illness: A Conversation for Everyone with a Body with Sarah Ramey.
About our guest:
Dr. Pooja Lakshmin MD is a psychiatrist, a clinical assistant professor at George Washington University School of Medicine, and the founder and CEO of Gemma, the women’s mental health community centering impact and equity. She has spent thousands of hours taking care of women struggling with burnout, despair, depression, and anxiety in her clinical practice. Her debut non-fiction book, Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Baths Not Included), is available in e-book, hardcover, and audiobook narrated by Pooja.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Read “Hope is Not a Thing to Have – It’s a Skill to Practice” at Oprah Daily
Read “How Society Has Turned Its Back on Mothers” at The New York Times
Read “Saying ‘No’ Is Self-Care for Parents” at The New York Times
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re in a massive climate crisis, but it’s hard to think about it, isn’t it?
It’s a great temptation to shut our eyes to climate change. It’s overwhelming. This week on the show, climate activist and author Bill McKibben on facing the reality of the climate crisis, understanding what needs to change, and what you can do - not just to change the course of humanity and the planet, but to feel more hopeful and connected as this all unfolds.
In this episode we cover:
- Is halting climate change really dependent on personal recycling and whether we use plastic straws?
- Is it okay to have intense emotional responses to wildfires, floods, and the inaction of those “in charge”?
- How the boomer generation is using their experience and wealth to revisit the activism of their youth (and supporting younger activists at the same time)
- How talking about our fears and our ecological grief gives us common ground to fight for our future - and our present.
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
For more on activism in the face of impossible odds listen to these related episodes:
Women, Life, Freedom: Grief and Power In Iran, with Nazanin Nour
Wonder in an Age of Violence with Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger
About our guest:
Bill McKibben is an American environmentalist, author, and journalist who has written extensively on the impact of global warming. His books include The End of Nature, about climate change, and Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?, about the state of the environmental challenges facing humanity.
Bill is a contributing writer to The New Yorker (read his latest piece here), and founder of Third Act, which organizes people over the age of sixty for progressive change.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Terry Tempest Williams’ book Refuge: An Unnatural History of Family and Place, and her recent NYT article on Utah’s great Salt Lake (gift link, no subscription needed)
Explore Joanna Macy’s work on the intersection of grief and activism at her website, or her books, including Coming Back to Life: The Updated Guide to the Work That Reconnects, World as Lover, World as Self, and Widening Circles: A Memoir
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Can grief be an opportunity for growth and self-understanding?
The answer, of course, is yes: but it’s a bit more complex than that. This week, author, philanthropist, activist Rachel Cargle on survival optimism, the resilience narrative, and why questioning the stories you tell yourself - with curiosity and kindness - is a powerful path of healing.
In this episode we cover:
- How was grief modeled for you growing up, and how does that affect later grief?
- Can your memory of childhood grief be… entirely wrong? (or at least, inaccurate)
- Can you do grief wrong?
- The difference between curiosity and judgment
- Is it ok to feel relieved when a sick person dies?
- Rachel’s new book, A Renaissance of Our Own
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episodes:
Gabor Mate on why we celebrate trauma, aka: resilience
Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the power of storytelling as an act of healing
About our guest:
Rachel Cargle is a writer, entrepreneur and philanthropic innovator. Her new memoir, A Renaissance of Our Own, centers the reimagining of womanhood, solidarity and self. In 2018 she founded The Loveland Foundation, Inc., a non-profit offering free therapy to Black women and girls.
She’s also the founder of Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre, a literacy space designed to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional cultural, social and academic canons. For more on her many endeavors, visit rachelcargle.com.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Read Rachel’s new book - A Renaissance of Our Own
The Great Unlearn – a self-paced, donation-based learning community
The Great Unlearn for Young Learners – an online learning space for young folks launching in 2022
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What would a meaningful life look like for you?
According to Death Doula Alua Arthur, conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have.
It’s not about accepting death, or avoiding grief - it’s about building a relationship with yourself and others that doesn’t hold anything back. Why should you listen? Yeah, because you’re mortal and one day you'll die, but more importantly: because one day, hopefully in the far off future, you’ll look back at this life you’ve lived. Conversations about death can make that life so much better.
Alua’s new book is Briefly Perfectly Human: Making an Authentic Life by Getting Real about the End. For more info visit aluaarthur.com
In this episode we cover:
- What’s a Death Doula?
- Does being honest about death give you access to joy?
- Should you tell someone that they’re dying, or does that remove hope?
- Why living each day like it’s your last is unrealistic (and what to do instead)
- The linking of death and grief: Death and grief are married, but grief definitely dates around.
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episodes:
Trauma Surgeon Dr. Red Hoffman on the surprisingly broad umbrella of palliative care
The co-founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care on supporting burnout & stress among healthcare professionals & caregivers
About our guest:
Alua Arthur is a Death Doula, recovering attorney, and the founder of Going with Grace, a Death Doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” She’s been featured in the LA Times, Vogue, Refinery29, The Doctors, and alongside Chris Hemsworth on the docuseries, Limitless. Find her at aluaarthur.com and on Instagram at @going_with_grace
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Read Alua’s new book - Briefly Perfectly Human
Going with Grace
Megan mentions this book - Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry?
In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?
All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly.
In this two-part episode we cover:
- What is the right amount of anger?
- Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful
- What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??)
- Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
- How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
- Finding your best community by embracing your anger
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com
To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry?
In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?
All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly.
In this two-part episode we cover:
- What is the right amount of anger?
- Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful
- What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??)
- Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
- How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
- Finding your best community by embracing your anger
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com
To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY.
Welcome to part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
In this episode we cover:
- Starting over in a new place with new friends
- Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
- The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!)
- Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back.
You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY.
This week on It’s OK, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
In this episode we cover:
- Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
- Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family?
- How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
- The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back.
You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”?
This week on It’s OK, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you.
If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship.
In this episode we cover:
- Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
- How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
- The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.
Find her at stephaniefoo.me and on Instagram @foofoofoo
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us atrefugeingrief.com
Listen to previous episodes of It’s OK that You’re Not OK!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
There’s no denying the grief that permeates everyday life. It’s in the news, in our communities, and in our personal lives. The thing is - we never really talk about how much this grief connects us.
This episode is STUNNING. It has gifts for everyone - whether you’re grieving a personal loss or you’re an activist of any kind. It was recorded in the summer of 2023, so you will not hear us mention P*lestine - you can bet if we’d recorded it now, that grief, and that need for belonging, would be present.
If you ARE an activist or organizer, you need to hear what Malkia has to say about our narrative strategies, and what it really takes to make change happen. If we learn to lean into that grief together, we might really create the beautiful world we all long for.
Malkia Devich-Cyril knows grief from the inside out. They grew up knowing their mom would die of her illness. They grew up immersed in the grief that is endemic to being Black in America. And they cared for their wife, comedian Alana Devich-Cyril, through her death in 2018.
In this episode we cover:
- The difference between sorrow and grief
- How “feelings aren’t facts” relates to grief
- Is it normal to feel like you failed to keep someone alive?
- Why do narrative strategists (aka: activists) need to understand grief?
- Are book bans a form of grief? (spoiler: yes, but maybe not for the reasons you think)
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episodes:
Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly
Collective Grief and Communal Joy: with Baratunde Thurston
Wonder in an Age of Violence: Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger
About our guest:
Malkia Devich-Cyril is an activist, writer and public speaker on issues of digital rights, narrative power, Black liberation and collective grief. They are also the founding and former Executive Director of MediaJustice. Their writing has appeared in publications like Politico, Motherboard, Essence Magazine, The Atlantic, and three documentary films including the Oscar nominated 13th. Find them at @radical_loss Instagram.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read“The Antidote to Authoritarianism” from The Atlantic
Read Grief Belongs in Social Movements: We Embrace it?
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
PROLONGED GRIEF DISORDER! It’s everywhere - social media, The New York Times, The Washington Post… it’s the hot new medical condition everyone’s talking about. But why is everyone so mad about it?
This week on the show, an overview of this hotly contested “new” human disorder, and what it means for the average person, for healthcare providers, and honestly - for the whole world. This is one medical diagnosis that affects everyone.
In this episode we cover:
- Why anyone should care what the APA thinks about grief
- The actual diagnostic criteria for prolonged grief disorder (translated from psych-jargon into the way real people speak)
- Access to care + funding for research: two of the main reasons people think this diagnosis could be helpful (and why it isn’t)
- The real world impact of the DSM: doubling down on shame and misunderstanding
- One surprise reason this diagnosis could be seen as a good thing
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
For an interview with both Megan and the author of the NYT article, Ellen Barry, on WGBH TV Boston, click here.
To read Megan’s more detailed response to the NYT article, check out the original Twitter thread, and the extended thread.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Sam Sanders is a well known and well loved radio and podcast host. He went a little extra-viral for a recent episode of his show, Vibe Check, in which he and his co-hosts openly discussed grief. Maybe you heard that episode: Life Has Been Lifing Lately.
This week on It’s OK That You’re Not OK, Sam joins us to talk about being open with his grief, and the ongoing relationships we have even after death.
In this episode we cover:
- What happens if you give grief a voice?
- The double-edged sword of church communities
- Why understanding context helps you treat yourself more kindly
- How men speaking honestly about grief helps everyone
- Throwing out the rule book on grief
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episodes:
A Renaissance of our Own: Rachel Cargle
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
About our guest:
Sam Sanders is the host of Into It, the flagship culture podcast from Vulture, and the co-host of Vibe Checkon Stitcher. He covered electoral politics for NPR, and was one of the original co-hosts of The NPR Politics Podcast. Sam also created and hosted the NPR news & culture podcast, It’s Been a Minute. Find him on social @samsanders
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Ever wonder what doctors say about their patients when they think no one can hear?
Dr. Rana Awdish doesn’t have to wonder - as a patient, she overheard a lot of distressing things. Her experience led her to change how medical providers speak about - and to - their patients, spreading compassion through communication (which we know is a mission dear to my heart). Listen in to hear Dr. Awdish’s take on the pressure on healthcare workers, too.
Content note: mention of life-threatening illness, pregnancy loss, medical industry
In this episode we cover:
- The “two educations” of Dr. Awdish - med school and a life threatening illness
- Why miscommunication is such a dangerous medical practice
- Being present is only the first step - validation is where the real healing begins
- Why compassionate communication helps doctors - maybe even more than it helps patients
- The very cool CLEAR program - using trained actors to help doctors & medical providers learn how to connect with patients going through some of the hardest times of their lives
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Dr. Rana Awdish is a critical care physician operating on the front lines during COVID-19 at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, MI. Her own serious illness in 2008 has informed her belief in the power of compassion, sacred listening, and community. As medical director of the Care Experience for the Henry Ford Healthcare System, she is training staff to practice empathy in critical care. Find her at ranaawdishmd.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read Dr. Awdish’s book - In Shock: My journey from death to recovery and the redemptive power of hope
Read “Restoration in the Aftermath” and ”The Shape of the Shore” from Dr. Awdish
Creative Writing as a Medical Instrument - paper by Jay Baruch, cited by Dr. Awdish
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
It’s no secret that healthcare professionals and caregivers of all kinds are stretched beyond their limits. We can’t look to healthcare systems themselves to give us the care and attention we need, so where CAN we go for support (and answers)?
Don’t miss this week’s episode with guests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
In this episode we cover:
- Why it’s important to look beyond the identified patient to the invisible web of caregivers
- The realities of caregiver burnout and stress
- The one practice you can do even - and especially - when you have no time to care for yourself
- Do you stay or do you go? Making decisions for yourself inside this healthcare system catastrophe
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guests:
Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. His passion lies in bereavement counseling and advocating for change in the way our healthcare institutions work with the dying. Find Chodo and the NYZC @newyorkzencenter on IG, and online at zencare.org
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and Certified Chaplaincy Educator. He is the author of Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up and the co-editor ofAwake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of Life Care. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
If you work in healthcare, I very strongly recommend you check out New York Zen Center’s Contemplative Medicine Fellowship.
To hear one of my favorite passages of all time, read by Chodo Robert Campbell, check out the first video at this link.
All of the Zen Center’s offerings, from books to support groups to ongoing educational opportunities can be found at zencare.org.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The world can feel like such a lonely place sometimes. You ever feel like there’s not enough love and support to go around? Like, there’s a severe shortage of compassion in the world, both for you and well, everyone? Me too, friends.
To get us into this topic, this week on It’s OK, we cover grief comparisons, like whether divorce and death should be compared, or if the death of anyone should be compared to the loss of a pet. Of course the short answer is no: grief comparisons are never useful. For the long answer though - listen to the show.
This episode is basically my TED talk, if I had one, on how we create that support-filled world we all want (and deserve). It’s my personal favorite episode of season one, brought to you again for this Valentine’s day.
In this episode we cover:
- Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
- Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them?
- How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same
- The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it)
Terminology update: in this episode I use the term gender-fluid, but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Notable quote:
“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love.” - Megan Devine
Resources:
Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love-filled world we all want: Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Tembi Locke lived an amazing love story: she met a handsome chef during a study abroad year in Italy when she was just 20 years old. They moved to LA to pursue Tembi’s acting career, and built a life around their love of food, family, and each other.
And then leiomyosarcoma arrived.
Is it still a Hollywood love story if it doesn’t have a happy ending?
In this episode we cover:
- Who’s the real couple behind the hit Netflix series, From Scratch?
- Why Tembi made sure From Scratch was an honest guide to profound loss
- How the sleeper hit show Eureka taught Tembi that it’s ok to let people help
- How Tembi Locke learned about the grief in Never Have I Ever only after the show came out
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
Related episodes :
Live Each Day Like It’s Your First: with Alua Arthur
Grief In Fiction, Grief In Life, with Best-Selling Author, Emily X.R. Pan
About our guest:
Tembi Locke is a writer, executive producer, and an accomplished actor. Her best-selling book, From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home was the basis for the hit Netflix series, From Scratch. Find her @tembilocke
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read Tembi Locke’s book - From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not.
In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large. Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
In this episode we cover:
- What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease?
- Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications
- How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans?
- Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world
- Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!)
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, Scattered Minds, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books.
Find him at drgabormate.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Watch the documentary The Wisdom of Trauma exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.
Read Hold on to Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Can you heal pain by focusing on joy?
Baratunde Thurston gave what’s been called “the greatest TED talk of all time.” He’s written about being Black in America, he’s got a podcast about community involvement called How to Citizen, and he’s got a PBS television show that explores the beauty and diversity of America.
There’s a duality running through all of this work, and in Baratunde’s personal life: mourning and celebration. From the early death of a parent, to men’s emotional health, to violence against Black men and boys, to the healing power of play and community, this week’s episode is a fascinating discussion of both grief and celebration - and why you don’t get one without the other.
In this episode we cover:
- Baratunde says he’s “wired for optimism” - which makes identifying his own grief… complicated
- How you can lose a parent at a young age and not recognize the impact until you’re an adult
- Why seeing other people be good parents can bring up grief
- Black joy and men’s community (plus the hashtag #BlackMenFrolicking)
- Why is it hard to play as an adult - and find other adults to play with?
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Baratunde Thurston is an Emmy-nominated, multi-platform storyteller and producer operating at the intersection of race, tech, democracy, and climate. He is the host of the PBS television series America Outdoors with Baratunde Thurston, creator and host of How To Citizen with Baratunde, and a founding partner of the new media startup Puck. His comedic memoir, How To Be Black, is a New York Times best-seller. Baratunde serves on the boards of BUILD.org and the Brooklyn Public Library.
Find him at baratunde.com and follow him on social media @baratunde
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read Baratunde’s book - How to be Black
Baratunde’s TED talk How to Deconstruct Racism, One Headline at a Time
‘America is addicted to watching me die…’ - Baratunde’s Puck article "Thoughts & Tears For Tyre"
Baratunde mentioned Valarie Kaur - get her book, See No Stranger, and listen to her episode on It’s OK that You’re Not OK
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Have you ever wanted to just SMASH things? Leanne Pedante and her husband Miles’ relationship was built on bravery and communication - they worked so hard to reach the next step together, excited to explore the edges of possibility in love and in life. On his way back to see Leanne after several months away, Miles’ car veered off the road, and he was killed.
In the just under three years since, Leanne has continued to grow the virtual reality fitness community, Supernatural. As a late-comer to fitness, Leanne is no stranger to using movement as a way to process and express pain.
Today on It’s OK, we discuss the ways grief has upended her life, and the ways that both movement and community have kept her alive - willing, at least most days, to lean into the full experience of life.
In this episode we cover:
- Punk-style relationships: how Leanne & Miles created a marriage that suited them
- What one friend told Leanne, and how those words kept her tethered to the world
- Why grief-informed fitness should really be a thing
- The weird world of encouraging others to do things you’re not comfortable doing yourself
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Leanne Pedante is a trainer and trauma + resiliency coach, whose work focuses on connecting people to their bodies and to their full potential. She works as both coach and the Head of Fitness for Supernatural, the VR fitness platform. Her own workouts let her celebrate her physical and mental strength and she wants to show others how to access the pride and power within joyful movement. Follow her on IG at @leannepedante
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Sign up for Leanne’s newsletter and check out the other community-building things she’s created at her website leannepedante.com
Try Supernatural with a free trial (VR headset required)
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The holidays are over - you made it. By the looks of our inbox, the season wasn’t easy. This week, a holiday debrief, including bad behavior from therapists, why religion is not the answer to grief, and some true facts about dating after loss.
In this episode we cover:
- How to say “I can’t work with you” without accidentally shaming your patients or clients
- Why “but your (dead relative) is all around you, just in a new form!” maybe isn’t the most supportive thing to say
- Questions to ask yourself when faced with a surprise romantic breakup (and what that has to do with grief)
- And as always - fun talk about boundaries.
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Want to become a more grief-informed, human-centered therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month online Grief Care Professional Certificate Program. Details at this link.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Is acceptance overrated? What happens when you have to face a new year without your person in it (or without the health you used to have!)? In this special two-part episode, we face the new year together - with special guest, historian, author, and queen of awkward conversations, Kate Bowler.
In part 2 of this episode we cover
- How do you have hope for the year to come when right now maybe isn’t so great?
- Acceptance, moving forward, and ferocious self-advocacy
- The Math of Suffering: this year, last year, and measuring love
- Why social bonds matter, and what happens when no one sees you
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2021.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Griefcourse here.
About our guest:
Kate Bowler, PhD, is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason (and Other Lies I’ve Loved). Her latest book, No Cure For Being Human (and Other Truths I Need to Hear), grapples with her diagnosis, her ambition, and her faith as she tries to come to terms with limitations in a culture that says anything is possible.
Find her at katebowler.com and follow her on social media @katecbowler
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read Kate Bowler’s memoir Everything Happens for a Reason (and Other Lies I’ve Loved)
Read Kate’s latest book No Cure For Being Human (and Other Truths I Need to Hear)
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Is acceptance overrated? What happens when you have to face a new year without your person in it (or without the health you used to have!)? In this special two-part episode, we face the new year together - with special guest, historian, author, and queen of awkward conversations, Kate Bowler.
In this episode we cover:
- How do you have hope for the year to come when right now maybe isn’t so great?
- Acceptance, moving forward, and ferocious self-advocacy
- The Math of Suffering: this year, last year, and measuring love
- Why social bonds matter, and what happens when no one sees you
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2021.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Kate Bowler, PhD, is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason (and Other Lies I’ve Loved). Her latest book, No Cure For Being Human (and Other Truths I Need to Hear), grapples with her diagnosis, her ambition, and her faith as she tries to come to terms with limitations in a culture that says anything is possible.
Find her at katebowler.com and follow her on social media @katecbowler
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read Kate Bowler’s memoir Everything Happens for a Reason (and Other Lies I’ve Loved)
Read Kate’s latest book No Cure For Being Human (and Other Truths I Need to Hear)
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
My dad used to read ‘‘Twas the Night Before Christmas” every Christmas Eve when I was a kid, after dinner and before we opened our Christmas pjs.
So many of you are missing your dads, or grandparents, or the father of your kids. This year, I asked my dad to record the Christmas Eve classic for the show. I wanted you to have a stand-in grandpa, in case you were missing one of your own.
From my family to yours, may you have the best holiday season available to you.
(‘Twas the Night Before Christmas by Clement Clarke Moore was first published in 1823)
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The holiday season is sometimes joyful, sometimes stressful - and to be honest, it’s usually a mix of both. Between external pressures and family dynamics, we figure everyone can use some tips on making it through the season.
In this episode we cover:
- How to bring up your loved one’s absence when no one else will
- Making a good enough holiday for your family when you’re not in the holiday spirit
- Tips for navigating intrusive personal questions (like “when will you have kids?” or “don’t you think it’s time you moved on?”)
- Why consensus is a terrible holiday goal, but collaboration might just be the best thing possible
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What if there’s nothing to fix? What if you could just, you know, be yourself - whatever that looks like today?
When I told people that this week’s guest was none other than adrienne maree brown - the excitement level was off the charts. adrienne maree brown is the author of Emergent Strategy and Pleasure Activism, among other works, and she’s instrumental in opening conversations about bodies, power, grief, and change (personal and collective).
This week, it’s all grief - and it’s all love. There is nothing to fix, and there is plenty to change.
In this episode we cover:
- How self-sabotaging behaviors become addictive
- The freedom of being yourself (and why that pisses other people off)
- How can you make this day worthy of your grief?
- Why humor sometimes fits “the shape of grief” and sometimes it does not
- Feelings are your body’s way of communicating needs
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Griefcourse here.
Related episodes:
Book bans, grief, and love: what do these have to do with social movements? Malkia Devich-Cyril
Is There Any Good News on Climate Change? With Bill McKibben
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
About our guest:
adrienne maree brown is the author of wildly influential books including Emergent Strategy, We Will Not Cancel Us and Pleasure Activism, plus the novellas Grievers and Maroons. She is a social media meme queen, writer, podcaster, musician, and movement facilitator based in Durham, NC.
Find her at adriennemareebrown.net and on Instagram and Facebook.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Boundaried in Love with Prentis Hemphill and adrienne maree brown
“The Pleasure Dome” by adrienne maree brown, Bitch Media
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
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Look, there are some things in life - a LOT of things in life - that just can’t be fixed or made better, you have to figure out how you’re going to live with them.
Sarah Ramey spent DECADES trying to find answers for why her body was falling apart. Her book, The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness, describes the complex, convoluted path through conventional and alternative medicines, her frustrations with being deemed a liar and hypochondriac, and the overlapping issues of misogyny, ableism, and well meaning but unhelpful support.
If you’ve ever felt othered and invisible because of an illness or disability - this episode is for you. If you’ve ever loved someone with a chronic illness, or you’re a medical provider in any capacity, this episode is 3000% for you.
And if you’re grieving some other loss or hardship, you’ll recognize so much of yourself in this conversation: that human desire to be seen, loved, and supported, exactly as you are.
In this episode we cover:
- What it’s really like having a chronic, invisible illness (and if you have one, you’ll feel seen!)
- How truly messed up the medical system is: Sarah’s years’ long efforts to be believed by doctors, and at a minimum: not be overtly harmed while seeking care
- How does being in a female body shift your odds of being believed - for ANYTHING, but especially mysterious, chronic illnesses?
- Sarah’s music was featured in the hit show Wednesday, on Netflix. Can you be a successful musician and have a disability?
- Why hope is a complex concept when your life is constrained by illness or disability (and why hope is still REALLY important)
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Sarah Ramey is a writer and musician (known as Wolf Larsen). Her work has been featured in The Paris Review, NPR, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, Ms. Magazine, and the Netflix show, Wednesday. Her book, The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness was a starred selection for Publisher’s Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, and Booklist. Learn more at sarahmarieramey.com and wolflarsenmusic.com.
Sarah has been living with serious chronic pain and illness for seventeen years.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
To join the next embodied writing course mentioned in the show, sign up at roottherapymaine.com
Read Sarah’s memoir: The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness
Listen to Sarah’s solo album: Quiet at the Kitchen Door
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Our early childhood experiences of grief - and how our family systems dealt with loss - have a huge impact on our adult behaviors and relationships.
This week, author Allyson Dinneen (@notesfromyourtherapist) joins me to discuss generational grief stories, and your number one most asked question: how does a grieving therapist (or another healthcare provider) go back to work?
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Allyson Dinneen is a marriage and family therapist, author, and the creator of the immensely popular Instagram account, Notes from Your Therapist - which is also the name of her recent book. Allyson’s work has been featured in Forbes, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, and more. Find her on IG @notesfromyourtherapist and at allysondinneen.com.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Allyson’s book - Notes from Your Therapist
Megan and Allyson discuss a question from a previous episode that aired on January 3rd, 2022.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Recently The Washington Post released graphic images, videos, and audio recordings from mass shootings, in a report called “Terror on Repeat.” Should news outlets attempt to push awareness through the use of graphic imagery? If so, do survivor families have the right to refuse to let photos of their friends or family members be released?
The answer, of course, is complicated. Complexity and nuance can be hard to find in the news and social media. Like so many things, the real answer comes down to sovereignty: the rights of the people directly involved to make choices about what actions are taken, and to what end.
In this special encore episode, Sandy Hook parent survivor Nelba Márquez-Greene and I discuss what cries of “release the photos!” means to survivors who have already had their private lives invaded, and their peoples’ images co-opted for others’ use.
That’s just part of our conversation, and all of it is timely: we discuss what it’s like to live such a public grief, and what it means to find joy - and hope - in an often violent world. Don’t miss it.
In this episode we cover:
- The importance of telling your own story in the ways you want to tell it (no matter who demands a soundbite)
- Supporting each other: the difference between an “inside the house” friend and an “on the porch” friend.
- Why no single form of advocacy for survivors is right for all survivors
- Where your money goes when you donate funds in the wake of a tragedy
- What to do when the next act of gun violence happens
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses.
About our guest:
Nelba Márquez-Greene is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in grief, loss, trauma and their impact on individuals and systems. What her official bio doesn’t say is that her child was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary. Find her at thisgrievinglife.com. Follow her on Instagram and Facebook @anagraceproject
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
There are many organizations fighting to end gun violence. Here are just a few:
Moms Demand Action, Change the Ref, and Brady United.
As Nelba suggested, if you want to support survivors of gun violence, find ways to support survivors in underserved communities, especially if their tragedy didn’t make the national news.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What if you were just about to get divorced, but your partner gets sick? Like really sick? Rebecca Woolf was just about to leave an unhappy marriage when her husband got sick and died. What followed was a crash course in performative grief, and the dismantling of one life in order to build the next.
This week on It’s OK, we cover love, sex, marriage, divorce, grief, shame, assumptions (both internal and external), and personal agency - it’s QUITE the conversation.
Sensitivity note: this episode contains the F word, and references sex.
In this episode we cover:
- The conventions of marriage and grief that trap people in inauthentic versions of themselves
- How you can love someone AND be relieved they’re dead
- Why everyone has an opinion about how soon is too soon to date, have sex, or otherwise live your life after someone dies
- Grieving the time you lost living someone else’s life
- Building your own “house of hope,” according to your own desires
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Rebecca Woolf has worked as a writer since her teens - it’s the way she understands both herself and the world. Her essays have appeared on Refinery29, HuffPost, Parenting, and more. She currently authors the bi-weekly column Sex & the Single Mom on romper.com. Her latest book is All of This: a Memoir of Death and Desire.
Find her on IG @rebeccawooolf (with three o’s) and at rebeccawoolf.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation.
Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.
In this episode we cover:
- Where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
- Whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to Netflix: HMU!)
- What to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
- And much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons of It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
How do we live in a world that’s at least half terrible, and that is a conservative estimate?
If you recognize that line, you already know Maggie Smith. This week on the show, we’re talking about writing, marriage, divorce, and why you didn’t need whatever happened to you in order to become who you’re meant to be: as Maggie says, “trauma does not give you a “glow up.””
If you’ve ever wanted to write the story of your life - including the messy, difficult parts like divorce, miscarriage, and the loss of identity - this episode is for you.
In this episode we cover:
- Why it’s ok if your story doesn’t have a happy ending (or even a happy middle)
- Do kids really need to learn about resilience?
- Does anything remain after devastating loss?
- What’s it like having your personal story out in the world for other people to talk about?
- Divorce, miscarriage, and why sometimes the lemonade isn’t worth the lemons
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons of It’s OK that You’re Not OK.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episodes:
Kate Bowler on the difference between transactional hope and functional hope
Aubrey Hirsch on the power of storytelling
David Ambroz on “A Place Called Home”
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Maggie Smith is the award-winning author of You Could Make This Place Beautiful, Good Bones, The Well Speaks of Its Own Poison, Lamp of the Body, and the national bestsellers Goldenrod and Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change. She has been widely published, appearing in The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Paris Review, The Nation, The Best American Poetry, and more. You can follow her on social media @MaggieSmithPoet
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Get the best-selling Writing Your Grief course and join over 15,000 people who’ve explored their grief - and their identity - through writing. All the details here.
Maggie Smith’s website
Maggie’s memoir - You Could Make This Place Beautiful
“What would happen if one woman told the truth about her life? / The world would split open.” - feminist poet Muriel Rukeyser
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
“Wonder is the root of love, the lack of wonder is the root of violence.”
Valarie Kaur is no stranger to violence. As a Sikh, as a woman, as a person of color, violence has shaped both her activism and her deep sense of community care. Her Revolutionary Love Project is the blueprint for organizers, activists, and really - anyone in love with the world and what it could be.
This week, the activist, and best-selling author of See No Stranger joins me to talk about love, action, and the power of wonder in the face of impossible things.
In this episode we cover:
- How do you continue to work on behalf of EVERYONE for a more just and beautiful world, when some of those people cause great harm?
- Getting outside of unbearable pain so you can survive
- Do you have to suffer in order to be of service? Being an activist for the long haul
- “Squad care” and what it means for activists and anyone alive in the world
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
“I spent the last 20 years organizing my life around hate and I want to spend the next 20 years organizing around love. The pain of the world is the pain of the world, regardless.” - Valarie Kaur
Starting this week we’re releasing some of our favorite episodes from all three seasons of the show - some you may have missed, and some you need to listen to again and again just to absorb even more of their goodness.
Want grief support with Megan? Apply for 1:1 sessions here, or join the monthly Q&A here.
Related episodes:
The Love-Filled World
A Place Called Home: a conversation with child welfare advocate, David Ambroz
Connection is the best medicine: with Dr. Rana Awdish
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Valarie Kaur is a renowned civil rights leader, lawyer, award-winning filmmaker, educator, author of the #1 LA Times Bestseller See No Stranger: A Memoir and Manifesto of Revolutionary Love, and founder of the Revolutionary Love Project. A daughter of Punjabi Sikh farmers in California, her work has ignited a national movement to reclaim love as a force for justice. Find her on IG @valariekaur.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Valarie Kaur’s website
The Revolutionary Love Learning Hub
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Being fabulous can save your life.
The Old Gays are a social media sensation: flamboyant outfits, lip synched dance parties, and risque theatrics you might not expect of men in their 70s and 80s.
A lot of their media attention focuses on the joy they bring to all of us. But in their new book, The Old Gays’ Guide to the Good Life, they share a deeper story. This week on It’s OK, Bill, Bob, Mick, and Jessay talk about the missing generation of gay elders, and how being “discovered” late in life saved them.
In this episode we cover:
- Finding beauty inside immense suffering
- Why is it so hard to talk about devastating collective events - like AIDS and COVID - once the initial danger is over?
- The role of luck in surviving when so many did not
- Learning to love yourself first - at any age
- Chosen family and the power of being truly seen for who you are - in good times and bad
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episode:
What’s It All For? Loss and Meaning In Midlife with Chip Conley
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guests:
The Old Gays are best friends Mick Peterson, Bill Lyons, Robert Reeves, and Jessay Martin. Flamboyant social media celebrities - @oldgays - they’ve also become educators, teaching people about the strides that have been made over the last five decades in the LGBTQIA+ community. Get their new tell-all group memoir, The Old Gays Guide to the Good Life: Lessons Learned about Love and Death, Sex and Sin, and Saving the Best for LastFind them on IG at @theoldgays and on TikTok at @oldgays.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
The San Francisco AIDS Foundation and UCSF house a lot of queer history related to the AIDS epidemic.
National AIDS Memorial
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The scene is 1990’s New York City. Young David Ambroz and his two siblings are homeless, sleeping in bus shelters and bathing in public restrooms, under the care of his mentally ill mother. The child he was is still evident in the person he grew up to be: a nationally recognized expert on child welfare, and a staunch supporter of the foster care system.
This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, we discuss both the horror and the joy of his childhood, landing on a vision of hope for the future that everyone (yes, you!) can help bring into fruition.
Sensitivity note: this episode explores the realities of being a homeless child, including brief examples of cruelty and non-graphic mention of sexual assault.
In this episode we cover:
- The terrifying, liberating power of putting your personal story out into the world for everyone to see
- “Occasional angels” and how they helped young David survive the cruelty of his upbringing
- The intersections of mental illness, homelessness, and poverty
- Beyond fostering: how anyone can take action to create the kind of world where kids are safe and loved and cared for
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
David Ambroz is a national poverty and child welfare expert and advocate. He currently serves as the Head of Community Engagement (West) for Amazon, coordinating with non-profits and community leaders for social good. David’s memoir, A Place Called Home, is a heart-wrenching yet inspiring story, depicting childhood poverty and homelessness as it is experienced by so many young people. Find him at davidambroz.com, on IG @hjdambroz, and on LinkedIn.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Just talking about foster care can help foster care. Check out FosterMore, the foundation David co-founded with his sister, Jennifer Perry.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Lots of smart, high achieving people learned to greet pain with stoicism: by being mature and responsible, even as kids.
But what happens when you can’t maintain the facade of having your sh*t entirely together? Do you ever get to be less than Super Human?
In this episode we cover:
- Perfectionism as a coping mechanism for all kinds of emotional wounds
- Is distraction bad for you?
- When the worst has already happened, how do you control your anxiety?
- Is there any good way to tell kids that someone they love is dying?
- Working within systems where vulnerability is punished (looking at you, medicine & law)
- How medical aid in dying has changed over the years
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
“I live with a constant fear of liking anyone or anything too much lest I lose it.” - Laurel Braitman
Related episodes:
Connection Is the Best Medicine: with Dr. Rana Awdish
Elise Loehnen: The 7 Deadly Sins and the Crown of Sadness
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Laurel Braitman is a New York Times bestselling author - her new book, What Looks Like Bravery: An Epic Journey Through Loss to Love, is out now. She’s the founder of Writing Medicine, a global community of writing healthcare professionals, and the Director of Writing and Storytelling at the Medical Humanities and the Arts Program at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Find her at laurelbraitman.com and on IG @laurel_braitman.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Writing Medicine - Laurel Braitman’s global writing community for healthcare workers
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Dementia means losing your person over and over again.
Margo Timmins and her siblings watched their father lose pieces of himself for years. They processed all that loss the way they always have: through music. The Cowboy Junkies vocalist joins us this week to talk about love, memory, and the ferocious beauty of turning towards what hurts.
*not sure who the Cowboy Junkies are? Google “cowboy junkies sweet jane” - I bet you’ll instantly recognize her voice.
In this episode we cover:
- The endless “interpretation” of music - each song means something completely different to the writer and the vocalist and the audience
- Why helping someone not be scared of dying isn’t the goal
- Everybody's hell is the correct hell for them, and everyone’s hell is valid. (huh?)
- How a neutral, logical approach to emotions helps you navigate truly impossible things (sometimes)
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
“Beauty contains death and suffering and outcomes you did not want.” - Margo Timmins
Related episodes:
The Love-Filled World
The Grief of Getting What You Want: with Chase Jarvis
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Margo Timmins is the lead vocalist of the Cowboy Junkies, an iconic Canadian alternative country/blues/folk rock band. Find their new album, Such Ferocious Beauty, wherever you get your music. And get into their oldies, too.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
For dementia support, we love Dr. Natali Edmonds (@dementia_careblazers)
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We fight hard for the things we believe in. But HOW we fight for those things causes more damage than we realize.
Jameela Jamil is a lightning rod for criticism, but it’s not just how people treat her that she’s concerned about.
“The most punk thing I can do is move towards love and unity.” - Jameela Jamil
In this episode we cover:
- Our odd habit of dehumanizing each other in the name of “progress”
- Do we believe, fundamentally, that human beings are allowed to change and grow?
- What kids learn when we attack each other on social media (or in the news)
- Why vengeance - aka: cancel culture - isn’t going to help us get the world we want
- Why you should try to make more mistakes
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
“Most of our behavior on all political sides is coming from trauma and fear - it's not all just ignorance. We have to listen for that pain if we’re going to be effective.” - Jameela Jamil
Related episodes:
Book Bans, Grief, and Love: What Do These Have to Do With Social Movements? with Malkia Devich-Cyril
Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: Resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Jameela Jamil is an actress, advocate, and podcast host. You’ve seen her in The Good Place, She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, and Legendary, and all over social media commenting on the odd things we do to ourselves and each other. Follow her on IG @jameelajamil, and listen to her podcast I Weigh.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not.
In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large. Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the podcast.
In this episode we cover:
- What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease?
- Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications
- How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans?
- Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world
- Why we often ignore other peoples’ pain to make ourselves comfortable
- Does taking pain seriously make you more hopeful?
- Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!)
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About the guest:
Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books. Find him at drgabormate.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and research mentioned in this episode
- The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté
- Scattered Minds by Gabor Maté
- The Wisdom of Trauma - documentary exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.
- Jaak Panksepp researched connections between human emotion processing and other mammals
- Hold Onto Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté
- Research on early trauma in elephants
- The Washington Post article about Megan’s loss
- NYT Mothers are The ‘Shock Absorbers’ Of Our Society
- Article on Hillary Clinton’s traumatic family history
- NYT Fighting Maternal Mortality Among Black Women
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
How do you turn the worst thing that’s ever happened to you into a comedy show?
Comedian Michael Cruz Kayne went viral for a tweet he posted on the 10th anniversary of his newborn son’s death. What followed was an outpouring of support, but also: of storytelling, with thousands of people sharing their own experiences of loss.
His one man show, Sorry for Your Loss, and his podcast, A Good Cry, have made the topic of child loss a little bit easier to approach. He’d like you to know you should ask your sad friend about the sad thing that happened to them: it’s ok to not know what to say.
In this episode we cover:
- Can you make comedy about tragedy?
- How telling the truth can make you less lonely
- Is it okay to say “sorry for your loss”?
- If family members would be upset by what you say on stage, should you say it anyway?
- Does everything happen for a reason? (spoiler: no. but maybe yes.)
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
“Having half of infinity is also infinity. I got more than you could ever possibly get, and I thought I was gonna get twice that.” - Michael Cruz Kayne, on the enduring grief of his son’s death.
Related episodes:
Tembi Locke - From Scratch
Can We Make This Place Beautiful? with Maggie Smith
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Comedian and writer Michael Cruz Kayne is the host of A Good Cry, and creator of the one man show, Sorry For Your Loss, from Audible theater. He’s an Emmy nominated, Peabody award winning writer on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert. Find him at michaelcruzkayne.com and on Instagram and Twitter @cruzkayne
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Should you stop being “good”?
According to the 7 deadly sins, a “good person” needs no rest, has no appetite, has no desires, puts themselves last, and is never upset.
NYT best-selling author Elise Loehnen says we spend most of our energy denying the needs and instincts that make us human - like our needs for love, connection, success, and rest.
It’s hard to be “ok” when you’ve spent a lifetime denying your own needs.
In this episode we cover:
- How the 7 deadly sins morphed into a rulebook for everyday life
- Who does she think she is?!
- Is the sin of greed keeping you from making friends?
- Why the most harmful thing you can do to a woman is destroy her reputation
- Why don't we allow men to be sad? (it’s not what you think)
- The grief in how much time you’ve lost trying to be good
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
“You can't interrupt the status quo alone. This is communal work.” - Elise Loehnen
Related episodes:
Horse Barbie & Cultivating Trans Joy with Geena Rocero
Book Bans, Grief, and Love: What Do These Have to Do With Social Movements? with Malkia Devich-Cyril
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Elise Loehnen is the author of the New York Times bestseller, On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good.She’s written for The Oprah Magazine, Stylist, and The New York Times, and hosts the podcast, Pulling the Thread. Find her @eliseloehnen
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Elise’s NYT best seller: On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Tembi Locke lived an amazing love story: she met a handsome chef during a study abroad year in Italy when she was just 20 years old. They moved to LA to pursue Tembi’s acting career, and built a life around their love of food, family, and each other.
And then leiomyosarcoma arrived.
Is it still a Hollywood love story if it doesn’t have a happy ending?
Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Train with Megan here: next course begins 9/04
In this episode we cover:
- Who’s the real couple behind the hit Netflix series, From Scratch?
- Why Tembi made sure From Scratch was an honest guide to profound loss
- How the sleeper hit show Eureka taught Tembi that it’s ok to let people help
- How Tembi Locke learned about the grief in Never Have I Ever only after the show came out
- Why you don’t have to know how it all works out before you get started.
Related episodes:
Live Each Day Like It’s Your First: with Alua Arthur
Grief In Fiction, Grief In Life, with Best-Selling Author, Emily X.R. Pan
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guest:
Tembi Locke is a writer, executive producer, and an accomplished actor. Her best-selling book, From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home was the basis for the hit Netflix series, From Scratch. Find her @tembilocke
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Read Tembi Locke’s book - From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Sam Sanders is a well known and well loved radio and podcast host. He went a little extra-viral for a recent episode of his show, Vibe Check, in which he and his co-hosts openly discussed grief. This week on It’s OK, Sam joins us to talk about being open with his grief, and the ongoing relationships we have even after death.
In this episode we cover:
- What happens if you give grief a voice?
- The double-edged sword of church communities
- Why understanding context helps you treat yourself more kindly
- How men speaking honestly about grief helps everyone
- Throwing out the rule book on grief
Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Train with Megan here: next course begins 9/04
Related episodes:
A Renaissance of our Own: Rachel Cargle
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok
Notable quotes:
“I wish churches would say, “Every emotion you feel is allowed and is in fact, holy, because God made them all.” - Sam Sanders
About our guest:
Sam Sanders is the host of Into It, the flagship culture podcast from Vulture, and the co-host of Vibe Checkon Stitcher. He covered electoral politics for NPR, and was one of the original co-hosts of The NPR Politics Podcast. Sam also created and hosted the NPR news & culture podcast, It’s Been a Minute. Find him on social @samsanders
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world. Find her @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
When life feels hard, does “peak performance” mean anything?
Steven Kotler is known as the NYT best selling author of books like Stealing Fire andThe Rise of Superman, but can the science of stretching limits apply to grief of any kind? If you look beyond the slick language of bio-hacking and extreme sports typically found in discussions on peak performance, it turns out there’s something here for all of us.
In this episode we cover:
- How peak performance applies to your life - even if you’re not an athlete
- Why gratitude tends to work better than affirmations
- The scientific reason why play is good for you - and important for healthy aging
- The first three days of grief: what loss is like inside a hospice-based dog rescue
- How a change in mindset can extend your life by eight years (but that’s not the same as toxic positivity)
Related episodes:
What’s It All For? Loss and Meaning in Midlife with Chip Conley
Pet Loss and Veterinarians Who Cry: with Veterinary Oncologist and Author Dr. Renee Alsarraf
Connection is the Best Medicine: with Dr. Rana Adwish
Notable quotes:
“Limits are liberating.” – Steven Kotler
“Hope is about the collaborative effort.” – Steven Kotler
About our guest:
Steven Kotler is one of the world’s most renowned experts on human performance. His NYT best selling books include The Art of Impossible and The Rise of Superman. He’s the co-founder of Planet Home and the Executive Director of the Flow Research Collective. Steven’s work has been nominated for two Pulitzer Prizes, and appears in over 100 publications, including the Wall Street Journal, TIME, and the Harvard Business Review. His latest book, Gnar Country: Growing Old, Staying Rad, details the application of peak performance tenets on an aging body. Find him at stevenkotler.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’sIt’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
The Art of Impossible: a Peak Performance Primer
Stealing Fire: How Silicon Valley, the Navy SEALs, and Maverick Scientists Are Revolutionizing the Way We Live and Work
The Future Is Faster Than You Thinkby Peter H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler
The Rise of Superman: Decoding the Science of Ultimate Human Performance
A Small Furry Prayer: Dog Rescue and the Meaning of Life
Rancho de Chihuahua - Joy and Steven’s non-profit dog sanctuary
Want to become a more grief-informed, human-centered therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month online Grief Care Professional Certificate Program. Details at this link.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for an inexpensive monthly open video Q&A clinic for grieving people. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What if there’s nothing to fix? What if you could just, you know, be yourself - whatever that looks like today?
When I told people that this week’s guest was none other than adrienne maree brown - the excitement level was off the charts. adrienne maree brown is the author of Emergent Strategy and Pleasure Activism, among other works, and she’s instrumental in opening conversations about bodies, power, grief, and change (personal and collective).
This week, it’s all grief - and it’s all love. There is nothing to fix, and there is plenty to change.
In this episode we cover:
- How self-sabotaging behaviors become addictive
- The freedom of being yourself (and why that pisses other people off)
- How can you make this day worthy of your grief?
- Why humor sometimes fits “the shape of grief” and sometimes it does not
- Feelings are your body’s way of communicating needs
- What mycelium and mushrooms can teach us about death
- adrienne’s vision of the future - including aliens, education, poetry, and love
Want to learn the skills you need to work with grief? Join Megan’s grief intensive training right here.
Related episodes:
Book bans, grief, and love: what do these have to do with social movements? Malkia Devich-Cyril
Is There Any Good News on Climate Change? With Bill McKibben
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
Notable quotes:
“The same Goddess of the ocean and stars and everything magnificent, is also the god
of mosquitoes and bug bites and cancer.” - adrienne maree brown
“People are so angry about all the ways that we're just being ourselves. And I'm like, you're only angry because you haven't given yourself permission to do it too.” - adrienne maree brown
About our guest:
adrienne maree brown is the author of wildly influential books including Emergent Strategy, We Will Not Cancel Us and Pleasure Activism, plus the novellas Grievers and Maroons. She is a social media meme queen, writer, podcaster, musician, and movement facilitator based in Durham, NC.
Find her at adriennemareebrown.net, and on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Boundaried in Love with Prentis Hemphill and adrienne maree brown
“The Pleasure Dome” by adrienne maree brown, Bitch Media
Want to become a more grief-informed, human-centered therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month online Grief Care Professional Certificate Program. Details at this link.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for an inexpensive monthly open video Q&A clinic for grieving people. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Can you hide in plain sight?
From trans beauty pageants in the Philippines, to the catwalks of New York City fashion week, to the Ted Talk mainstage – Filipina-American model Geena Rocero has lived an astounding life. This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the author of Horse Barbie: A Memoir shares what it costs to suppress your true self in order to find safety and success, and why joy is powerful medicine.
Geena Rocero is a trans advocate, speaker, and author of the new book, Horse Barbie.
In this episode we cover:
- Why do we have to talk about gender all the time anyway?
- How can parents support trans children?
- The history of trans beauty pageants in the Philippines
- The grief involved in hiding your true self in order to stay safe
- Why joy - and a sense of humor - are real survival tools
Related episodes:
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
If I Survived, You Can Too! Author Emi Nietfeld on the Hollowness of the Transformation Narrative
Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling
Notable quotes:
“Surviving means feeling a sense of a life well lived.” - Geena Rocero
“Live your most unapologetic self. Tell that story, in the only way you know. And live that life, in the only way you know… because that’s really the only way we’ll get through this.” - Geena Rocero
About our guest:
Geena Rocero is a Filipina-American model, public speaker, author, and trans rights advocate. Ms. Rocero made history as the first trans woman ambassador for Miss Universe Nepal, and the first trans Asian Playboy Playmate of the Year. Her TED Talk, “Why I Must Come Out,” has been viewed over 3.7 million times. She’s an advisory board member of SeeHer, a global coalition working to increase representation and accurate portrayal of all women and girls in marketing, media, and entertainment. She’s spoken at the White House and United Nations, and has been featured on CNN, MSNBC, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, Vanity Fair, and Variety. Her book Horse Barbie: A Memoirwas named one of the Best Memoirs of 2023 by Elle Magazine.
Find her @geenarocero on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Watch Geena’s TED Talk “Why I Must Come Out”
Read Geena’s book - Horse Barbie: A Memoir
SeeHer
Want to become a more grief-informed, human-centered therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month online Grief Care Professional Certificate Program. Details at this link.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links. For a collection of all the books mentioned in the history of the show (plus other things we think are interesting or helpful), visit the affiliate store.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Whether you’re interested in social justice or not, there’s no denying the grief simmering beneath the surface of daily life. It’s in our personal lives, it’s in the news, it’s in our communities. The thing is - we never really talk about it: just how much grief connects us.
If we learn to lean into that grief together, we might really create the beautiful world we all long for.
Malkia Devich-Cyril knows grief from the inside out. They grew up knowing their mom would die of her illness. They grew up immersed in the grief that is endemic to being Black in America. And they cared for their wife, comedian Alana Devich-Cyril through her death in 2018.
Malkia is a poet and media activist. They are the executive director of the MediaJustice, and a co-founder of the Media Action Grassroots Network. Their writings on media, race, justice, and grief frequently appear in national publications such as Politico, The Guardian, and The Atlantic, and in the Oscar nominated documentary film, 13th.
This episode is STUNNING. It has gifts for everyone, whether you’re grieving a personal loss, or you’re an activist of any kind.
If you ARE an activist or organizer, you need to hear what Malkia has to say about our narrative strategies, and what it really takes to make change happen.
In this episode we cover:
- The difference between sorrow and grief
- How “feelings aren’t facts” relates to grief
- Is it normal to feel like you failed to keep someone alive?
- Why do narrative strategists (aka: activists) need to understand grief?
- Are book bans a form of grief? (spoiler: yes, but maybe not for the reasons you think)
- Why death is “the ultimate boundary” - and how to find hope in that
Related episodes:
Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly
Collective Grief and Communal Joy: with Baratunde Thurston
Wonder in an Age of Violence: Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger
For more on the shortage of compassion, see The Love Filled World: is there enough love to go around?
Notable quotes:
“Sadness is a critical, crucial part of acknowledging the reality of our conditions. So I believe in sorrow. The point is not to exclude sorrow, it's to include joy. It's to include anger. It's to allow ourselves the full range of what acknowledging loss means.” - Malkia Devich-Cyril
“A hurting person wants to bond with other hurting people, but they're also not gonna stay in a movement that is only dealing with pain.” - Malkia Devich-Cyril
About our guest:
Malkia Devich-Cyril is an activist, writer and public speaker on issues of digital rights, narrative power, Black liberation and collective grief. They are also the founding and former Executive Director of MediaJustice — a national hub boldly advancing racial justice, rights and dignity in a digital age. Their writing has appeared in publications like Politico, Motherboard, Essence Magazine, and three documentary films including the Oscar nominated 13th. Find them @culturejedi on Twitter and Instagram.
Read Grief Belongs in Social Movements: We Embrace it?
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
“The Antidote to Authoritarianism” by Malkia Devich-Cyril, The Atlantic
MediaJustice
Media Action Grassroots Network
Want to become a more grief-informed, human-centered therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month online Grief Care Professional Certificate Program. Details at this link.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Have you ever put on a face mask, expecting it to solve all your mental health problems?
That seems… unrealistic, but that’s what self-care marketing tells us: get your self care right, and all your difficulties will evaporate.
This week, Dr. Pooja Lakshmin breaks down what “self-care” actually means when we’re living in a complex, capitalistic world. It’s an exploration of grief, burnout, and exhaustion, and what it takes to care for yourself inside systems that repeatedly ignore their part in your suffering.
After leaving med school to join a wellness group that turned out more cult-like than liberating, Dr. Lakshmin went on a journey to heal herself. Along the way, she founded Gemma, a women’s mental health organization, and wrote a book called Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (warning: crystals, cleanses, and bubble baths not included).
In this episode we cover:
- Why self-care doesn’t work
- Does looking for your own answers mean you have to do things alone?
- Accepting help as a bid for connection
- How Dr. Lakshmin’s definition of boundaries can help you practice real self-care
- The difference between eudaimonic and hedonic well-being
- How hope is different than optimism
Related episodes:
For more on systems that fail us and what to do about it: Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly
A fantastic discussion of the “wellness movement” and what it means for chronically ill folks: Living with Chronic Illness: A Conversation for Everyone with a Body with Sarah Ramey.
Notable quotes:
“Hope is different than optimism… Hope is something you can build. It’s a practice. It’s a skill.” - Dr. Pooja Lakshmin
About our guest:
Dr. Pooja Lakshmin MD is a psychiatrist, a clinical assistant professor at George Washington University School of Medicine, and the founder and CEO of Gemma, the women’s mental health community centering impact and equity. She has spent thousands of hours taking care of women struggling with burnout, despair, depression, and anxiety in her clinical practice. Her debut non-fiction book, Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Baths Not Included), is out now and available in e-book, hardcover, and audiobook narrated by Pooja.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
More from Pooja Lakshmin:
Gemma Women’s Mental Health Community
“Hope is Not a Thing to Have – It’s a Skill to Practice” Oprah Daily
“How Society Has Turned Its Back on Mothers” NY Times
“Saying ‘No’ Is Self-Care for Parents” NY Times
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re in a massive climate crisis, but it’s hard to think about it, isn’t it?
It’s a great temptation to shut our eyes to climate change. It’s overwhelming. This week on the show, climate activist and author Bill McKibben on facing the reality of the climate crisis, understanding what needs to change, and what you can do - not just to change the course of humanity and the planet, but to feel more hopeful and connected as this all unfolds.
In this episode we cover:
- Is halting climate change really dependent on personal recycling and whether we use plastic straws?
- Why don’t we take action when the evidence of the climate crisis is literally everywhere?
- Is it okay to have intense emotional responses to wildfires, floods, and the inaction of those “in charge”?
- How the boomer generation is using their experience and their wealth to revisit the activism of their youth (and supporting younger activists at the same time)
- Why the “will to act” is so important to sustained change
- How talking about our fears and our ecological grief gives us common ground to fight for our future - and our present.
Related episodes:
For more on activism in the face of impossible odds:
Women, Life, Freedom: Grief and Power In Iran, with Nazanin Nour
Wonder in an Age of Violence with Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger
Notable quotes:
The climate crisis is a really interesting test of whether or not (our) big brain was a good adaptation or not. It can get us into a lot of trouble, but can it get us out? My intuition is that it's actually going to be less the size of the brain that matters than the size of the heart that it's attached to. - Bill McKibben
About our guest:
Bill McKibben is an American environmentalist, author, and journalist who has written extensively on the impact of global warming. His books include The End of Nature, about climate change, and Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?, about the state of the environmental challenges facing humanity. He’s a contributing writer to The New Yorker (read his latest piece here), and founder of Third Act, which organizes people over the age of sixty for progressive change.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Read Bill latest piece in The New Yorker - “To Save the Planet, Should We Really Be Moving Slower?”
Check out Bill’sThird Act community - Elders working together for a fair and stable planet.
Terry Tempest Williams’ book Refuge: An Unnatural History of Family and Place, and her recent NYT article on Utah’s great Salt Lake (gift link, no subscription needed)
Explore Joanna Macy’s work on the intersection of grief and activism at her website, or her books, including Coming Back to Life: The Updated Guide to the Work That Reconnects, World as Lover, World as Self, and Widening Circles: A Memoir
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Can grief be an opportunity for growth and self-understanding?
The answer, of course, is yes: but it’s a bit more complex than that. This week, author, philanthropist, activist Rachel Cargle on survival optimism, the resilience narrative, and why questioning the stories you tell yourself - with curiosity and kindness - is a powerful path of healing.
In this episode we cover:
- How was grief modeled for you growing up, and how does that affect later grief?
- Can your memory of childhood grief be…. entirely wrong? (or at least, inaccurate)
- Can you do grief wrong?
- The difference between curiosity and judgment
- Is it ok to feel relieved when a sick person dies?
- Rachel’s new book, A Renaissance of Our Own
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
Related episodes:
Gabor Mate on why we celebrate trauma, aka: resilience
Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the power of storytelling as an act of healing
Notable quotes:
“It's a practice of kindness to ourselves when we acknowledge and lean into the both/and… So when I feel shame about the relief I feel because I no longer have this sick mother to worry about, I can actually rest with that relief because I know that probably in about 2.5 days I'm going to be on the floor crying about the fact that she's not here. It’s both/and.” - Rachel Cargle
“(As) I really look at my childhood and have to dust some things off, (I’m) also cleaning off the spaces where good things are. You're not just going to the box of bones and figuring out all the hard, terrible things that happened in your childhood.” - Rachel Cargle
About our guest:
Rachel Cargle is a writer, entrepreneur and philanthropic innovator. Her new memoir, A Renaissance of Our Own, centers the reimagining of womanhood, solidarity and self. In 2018 she founded The Loveland Foundation, Inc., a non-profit offering free therapy to Black women and girls. She’s also the founder of Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre – a literacy space designed to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional cultural, social and academic canons. For more on her many endeavors, visit rachelcargle.com.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Rachel’s book - A Renaissance of Our Own
The Loveland Foundation, Inc. - houses a collection of Rachel’s social ventures
The Great Unlearn, a self-paced, donation-based learning community
The Great Unlearn for Young Learners – an online learning space for young folks launching in 2022
Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre - an innovative literacy space designed to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional cultural, social and academic canons.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Apply for one of her limited 1:1 consultations here
Or join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
How do we live in a world that’s at least half terrible, and that is a conservative estimate?
If you recognize that line, you already know Maggie Smith. This week on the show, we’re talking about writing, marriage, divorce, and why you didn’t need whatever happened to you in order to become who you’re meant to be: as Maggie says, “trauma does not give you a “glow up.””
If you’ve ever wanted to write the story of your life - including the messy, difficult parts like divorce, miscarriage, and the loss of identity - this episode is for you.
In this episode we cover:
- Why it’s ok if your story doesn’t have a happy ending (or even a happy middle)
- Do kids really need to learn about resilience?
- Does anything remain after devastating loss?
- What’s it like having your personal story out in the world for other people to talk about?
- Divorce, miscarriage, and why sometimes the lemonade isn’t worth the lemons
Get the best selling Writing Your Grief course and join over 15,000 people who’ve explored their grief - and their identity - through writing. All the details here.
Related episodes:
Kate Bowler on the difference between transactional hope and functional hope
Aubrey Hirsch on the power of storytelling
David Ambroz on “A Place Called Home”
About our guest:
Maggie Smith is the award-winning author of You Could Make This Place Beautiful, Good Bones, The Well Speaks of Its Own Poison, Lamp of the Body, and the national bestsellers Goldenrod and Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change. A 2011 recipient of a Creative Writing Fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts, Smith has also received several Individual Excellence Awards from the Ohio Arts Council, two Academy of American Poets Prizes, a Pushcart Prize, and fellowships from the Sustainable Arts Foundation and the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts. She has been widely published, appearing in The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Paris Review, The Nation, The Best American Poetry, and more. You can follow her on social media @MaggieSmithPoet.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Get the best selling Writing Your Grief course and join over 15,000 people who’ve explored their grief - and their identity - through writing. All the details here.
Maggie Smith’s website
Maggie’s memoir - You Could Make This Place Beautiful
“What would happen if one woman told the truth about her life? / The world would split open.” - feminist poet Muriel Rukeyser
Want to talk with Megan directly? Two options: apply for one of her 1:1 sessions through the contact form at megandevine.co, or join our Patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. Either way, it’s your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
“Wonder is the root of love, the lack of wonder is the root of violence.”
Is there a way to create boundaries with someone who wishes to cause harm? Can you love them and hold them accountable? Do you have to fight for a just world for everyone?
Valarie Kaur is no stranger to violence. As a Sikh, as a woman, as a person of color, violence has shaped both her activism and her deep sense of community care. Her Revolutionary Love Project is the blueprint for organizers, activists, and really - anyone in love with the world and what it could be.
This week, the activist, and best-selling author of See No Stranger joins me to talk about love, action, and the power of wonder in the face of impossible things.
We cover activism, wonder, horror, grief, acts of violence, acts of justice, parenting in an age of rampant school violence, healing family wounds, building true community - and why fighting for love and pleasure is always going to be more sustainable than fighting against hate.
“I spent the last 20 years organizing my life around hate and I want to spend the next 20 years organizing around love. The pain of the world is the pain of the world, regardless.” - Valarie Kaur
- One brief content note, Valarie’s neighborhood had some construction going on, so there’s more background noise in this episode than usual. Listen for the goodness, though - it’s all around you.
In this episode we cover:
- How do you continue to work on behalf of EVERYONE for a more just and beautiful world, when some of those people cause great harm?
- Getting outside of unbearable pain so you can survive
- Do you have to suffer in order to be of service? Being an activist for the long haul
- “Squad care” and what it means for activists and anyone alive in the world
- What do you want future generations to inherit from your time here?
Want grief support with Megan? Apply for 1:1 sessions here, or join the monthly Q&A here.
Related episodes:
The Love-Filled World
A Place Called Home: a conversation with child welfare advocate, David Ambroz
Connection is the best medicine: with Dr. Rana Awdish
Notable quotes:
“We're living in a time where we have to metabolize grief on a scale that no other generation before us has had to.” - Valarie Kaur
“Our solidarity is only as deep as our ability to love one another, and our ability to love one another is only as deep as our ability to weep with one another.” - Valarie Kaur
About our guest:
Valarie Kaur is a renowned civil rights leader, lawyer, award-winning filmmaker, educator, author of the #1 LA Times Bestseller SEE NO STRANGER, and founder of the Revolutionary Love Project. A daughter of Punjabi Sikh farmers in California, her work has ignited a national movement to reclaim love as a force for justice. See No Stranger: A Memoir and Manifesto of Revolutionary Love.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Valarie Kaur’s website
The Revolutionary Love Learning Hub
Want to talk with Megan directly? Two options: apply for one of her 1:1 sessions through the contact form at megandevine.co, or join our Patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. Either way, it’s your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omny.fm/listener for privacy information.
If you try to not let something define you, can it define you anyway?
You might know Chase Jarvis as an Emmy nominated photographer, founder of Creative Live, and angel investor. The world of venture capital and billion dollar deals isn’t exactly known for its human side, but Chase’s kindness and vulnerability are legendary.
In part two of our conversation, we get into a deep discussion over whether a successful person is allowed to feel intense grief, or if success disqualifies you. We unpack an accident that could have killed him - and how that experience shaped his life even as he tried to ignore it. Chase’s willingness to explore personal, emotional territory in real time in this episode is really special.
We make a lot of invisible things visible in this episode, from the creativity of every day, to the grief of getting what you want, to how a near-death experience can both shape your entire life AND be something you refuse to think about.
Content note: this episode contains a lot of swearing.
Need to talk to Megan? apply for a 1:1 grief consultation with Megan Devine here
In this episode we cover:
- How to break the habit of dismissing your feelings before you even get to feel them
- Do successful people get to identify as grieving?
- Can you revisit old issues with kindness?
- What happens if you decide something MAJOR is “no big deal”?
Related episodes:
Listen to part one of Chase Jarvis here
Chip Conley on the dark night of the soul, near death experiences, and finding community
About our guest:
Chase Jarvis is an award-winning artist, entrepreneur, best-selling author, and one of the most influential photographers of the past 20 years. His expansive work ranges from shooting advertising campaigns for companies like Apple, Nike, and Red Bull; to working with athletes like Serena Williams and Tony Hawk, to collaborating with renowned icons like Lady Gaga and Richard Branson. He is the Founder of CreativeLive, where more than 10 million students learn from the world’s top creators and entrepreneurs; CreativeLive was acquired by Fiverr in 2021. His recent book Creative Calling debuted as an instant National Best Seller.
More at chasejarvis.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Get Chase Jarvis’ latest book, Creative Calling, here
Want to talk with Megan directly? Apply for one of her limited 1:1 consultations here, or Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: either way, it’s your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms.
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Have you ever felt something, then immediately “disqualified” yourself from feeling it? As if you don’t have the right to feel what you’re feeling?
Chase Jarvis is a very successful man. He’s also kind, and thoughtful, and actively exploring his own ideas of himself. If you’ve heard Chase speak before, this is a very different kind of conversation.
We make a lot of invisible things visible in this episode, from the creativity of every day, to the grief of getting what you want, to how a near-death experience can both shape your entire life AND be something you refuse to think about.
5 things you’ll learn in this episode (at least 5!)
- The difference between Big C Creativity and little c creativity (and how it relates to hard times)
- How the roles we’re “allowed” to inhabit get fed to us, starting in childhood
- Is there a grief spectrum? If so, where do you land on it?
- Are you allowed to feel grief, when objectively speaking, other people have it a lot worse?
- If someone sobs in your presence, that might be a very good thing.
Content note: this episode contains a lot of swearing.
Notable quotes:
“Am I worthy of becoming the person that I want to become?” - Chase Jarvis
About our guest:
Chase Jarvis is an award-winning artist, entrepreneur, best-selling author, and one of the most influential photographers of the past 20 years. His expansive work ranges from shooting advertising campaigns for companies like Apple, Nike, and Red Bull; to working with athletes like Serena Williams and Tony Hawk, to collaborating with renowned icons like Lady Gaga and Richard Branson. He is the Founder of CreativeLive, where more than 10 million students learn from the world’s top creators and entrepreneurs; CreativeLive was acquired by Fiverr in 2021. His recent book Creative Calling debuted as an instant National Best Seller.
More at chasejarvis.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
The long dark night of the soul is commonly understood as a time of spiritual dryness and existential doubt and loneliness. For more on the “long dark night of the soul,” Check the wiki page.
Chase’s book - Creative Calling
Chase references Ram Dass, and the quote, “We’re all just walking each other home.”
Want to talk with Megan directly? Apply for one of her limited 1:1 consultations here, or join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: either way, it’s your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms.
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What would a meaningful life look like for you?
According to Death Doula Alua Arthur, conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have. It’s not about accepting death, or avoiding grief - it’s about building a relationship with yourself and others that doesn’t hold anything back. Why should you listen? Yeah, because you’re mortal and one day you'll die, but more importantly: because one day, hopefully in the far off future, you’ll look back at this life you’ve lived. Conversations about death can make that life so much better.
7 things you’ll learn in this episode:
- What’s a Death Doula?
- Does being honest about death give you access to joy?
- Should you tell someone that they’re dying, or does that remove hope?
- Why living each day like it’s your last is unrealistic (and what to do instead)
- Should you reach for a “meaningful life”?
- Why hope sets you up for disappointment - and why hope is dangerous at end of life
- The linking of death and grief: Death and grief are married, but grief definitely dates around.
Related episodes:
Trauma Surgeon Dr. Red Hoffman on the surprisingly broad umbrella of palliative care
The co-founders of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care on supporting burnout & stress among healthcare professionals & caregivers
Notable quotes:
“I'm the only one who's going to have to contend with all the choices I made at my deathbed. Nobody else.” - Alua Arthur
About our guest:
Alua Arthur is a Death Doula, recovering attorney, and the founder of Going with Grace, a Death Doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” She’s been featured in the LA Times, Vogue, Refinery29, The Doctors, and alongside Chris Hemsworth on the docuseries, Limitless.
Find her at goingwithgrace.com and on Instagram @going_with_grace
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
The Going with Grace website
Megan mentions this book - Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia
Want to talk with Megan directly? Two options: apply for a 1:1 consultation through the contact form, OR Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: either way… it’s your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Midlife has a lot of messy stuff in it: divorce, the death of your parents, menopause, health scares, empty nests, career changes, feeling increasingly irrelevant - “midlife” has terrible branding, according to author, modern elder, and hospitality expert, Chip Conley.
What if midlife (and beyond) could include an ever deepening sense of self and more satisfying connections - right alongside all that cascading loss?
Chip and Megan start out talking about midlife, and wind their way to the power of telling the truth about your own life. In the middle, there’s grief: scary diagnoses, the deaths of friends, a near death experience, and some personal wake up calls to the meaning of life.
It’s Ok that You’re Not Ok in the mixed bag of midlife.
6 things you’ll learn in this episode:
- How “hospitality” manifests itself inside grief (and life)
- How suicide deaths in your friend group impact the rest of your life
- What it’s like facing a cancer recurrence just as you’re feeling yourself come back to life
- Why community is crucial to our survival
- Coming out as a gay man in the 1980’s, and what coming out to yourself might mean now
- Why you want multigenerational relationships, no matter how old you are now
Content note: this episode contains mention of suicide, along with brief mention of the method.
Related episodes:
Baratunde Thurston on the power of community
Notable quotes:
“One of the challenges with grief is the feeling like it will never end. If you can actually understand what it means to be in that messy middle, you can actually move through the grief more in a more natural, humane, and accelerated fashion.” - Chip Conley
“It is not required that you change the world because of what you've experienced in your life.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Chip Conley is a strategic advisor for hospitality and leadership at Airbnb, founder of the Modern Elder Academy, which helps people in their ‘third age’ find a new path forward, and author of Wisdom @ Work: The Making of a Modern Elder. He was a founder board member for Burning Man. Find him on social @ChipConley
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
Chip’s book - Wisdom @ Work: The Making of a Modern Elder
Modern Elder Academy
Man’s Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl
The Rumi Collection: An Anthology of Translations of Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Look, there are some things in life - a LOT of things in life - that just can’t be fixed or made better, you have to figure out how you’re going to live with them. If you’ve ever felt othered and invisible because of an illness or disability - this episode is for you. If you’ve ever loved someone with a chronic illness, or you’re a medical provider in any capacity, this episode is 3000% for you. And if you’re grieving some other loss or hardship, you’ll recognize so much of yourself in this conversation: that human desire to be seen, loved, and supported, exactly as you are.
Sarah Ramey spent DECADES trying to find answers for why her body was falling apart. Her book, The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness, describes the complex, convoluted path through conventional and alternative medicines, her frustrations with being deemed a liar and hypochondriac, and the overlapping issues of misogyny, ableism, and well meaning but unhelpful support.
5 things you’ll learn in this episode:
- What it’s really like having a chronic, invisible illness (and if you have one, you’ll feel seen!)
- How truly messed up the medical system is: Sarah’s years’ long efforts to be believed by doctors, and at a minimum: not be overtly harmed while seeking care
- How does being in a female body shift your odds of being believed - for ANYTHING, but especially mysterious, chronic illnesses?
- Sarah’s music was featured in the hit show “Wednesday,” on Netflix. Can you be a successful musician and have a disability?
- Why hope is a complex concept when your life is constrained by illness or disability (and why hope is still REALLY important)
To join the next embodied writing course mentioned in the show, sign up at roottherapymaine.com
Notable quotes:
So much of the experience of having one of these illnesses is sort of having to turn yourself inside to make everybody else be able to see what you can feel, but they can't see. - Sarah Ramey
There's just this incredible dehumanization that has sort of taken over medicine. If you have a problem that is disbelieved by medicine, it often feels like, why did I come at all? Why am I paying even a single dollar to be made to feel like I am a worthless, bad person, who's a liar and a malingerer? - Sarah Ramey
You have to start with believing what the people living it are telling you. Nothing else can happen unless you listen, and you believe. - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Sarah Ramey is a writer and musician (known as Wolf Larsen). Her work has been featured in The Paris Review, NPR, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, Ms. Magazine, and the Netflix show, Wednesday. Her book, The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness was a starred selection for Publisher’s Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, and Booklist. Learn more at sarahmarieramey.com and wolflarsenmusic.com.
Sarah has been living with serious chronic pain and illness for seventeen years.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
To join the next embodied writing course mentioned in the show, sign up at roottherapymaine.com
Read Sarah’s memoir: The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness
Listen to Sarah’s solo album: Quiet at the Kitchen Door
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK that You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Can you heal pain by focusing on joy?
Baratunde Thurston gave what’s been called “the greatest TED talk of all time.” He’s written about being Black in America, he’s got a podcast about community involvement called How to Citizen, and he’s got a television show that explores the beauty and diversity of America.
There’s a duality running through all of this work, and in Baratunde’s personal life: mourning and celebration. From the early death of a parent, to men’s emotional health, to violence against Black men and boys, to the healing power of play and community, this week’s episode is a fascinating discussion of both grief and celebration - and why you don’t get one without the other.
In this episode we cover:
- Baratunde says he’s “wired for optimism” - which makes identifying his own grief… complicated
- Transactional emotions - for example, feeling your grief so you can “get beyond it”
- The need for Black male role models
- How you can lose a parent at a young age and not recognize the impact until you’re an adult
- Why seeing other people be good parents can bring up grief
- What it’s like to see violence against people who look like you - over and over and over
- Black joy and mens’ community (plus the hashtag #BlackMenFrolicking)
- Why is it hard to play as an adult - and find other adults to play with?
- How to use your powerpoint slides to keep emotions in check (and why Baratunde isn’t using slides in his talks anymore)
- The nature of our interconnectedness as a species and a planet
Notable quotes:
“I'm looking at other joyful, hopeful ways of being that don't require waiting for someone to (change), or accepting suffering as the main narrative. Those don’t fit me anymore. And so I acknowledge parallel paths to freedom - things like joy and silliness.” - Baratunde Thurston
“We're about men's business which is stoicism and pain and suppressed human experiences. That's what it is to be a man.” - Baratunde Thurston
“My hope is grounded in our creative possibility, in our own creativity. We can be destructively creative, but I also think we can be beautifully, you know - hopefully, creative.” - Baratunde Thurston
About our guest:
Baratunde Thurston is an Emmy-nominated, multi-platform storyteller and producer operating at the intersection of race, tech, democracy, and climate. He is the host of the PBS television series America Outdoors with Baratunde Thurston, creator and host of How To Citizen with Baratunde, and a founding partner of the new media startup Puck. His comedic memoir, How To Be Black, is a New York Times best-seller. In 2019, he delivered what MSNBC’s Brian Williams called “one of the greatest TED talks of all time.”
Baratunde serves on the boards of BUILD.org and the Brooklyn Public Library and lives in Los Angeles, California. Find more at baratunde.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Baratunde’s book - How to be Black
Baratunde’s TED talk How to Deconstruct Racism, One Headline at a Time
‘America is addicted to watching me die…’ - Article in Puck
Black Men Frolicking
Baratunde’s Podcast - How To Citizen
PBS America Outdoors
Baratunde’s website
Baratunde’s media outlet, Puck.news
Baratunde mentioned Valarie Kaur - get her book, See No Stranger, and tune in to her episode on It’s OK that You’re Not OK later this season
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK that You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Is there really a way to understand politics if you understand grief? In this bonus episode with Dr. Gabor Maté, we explore the interconnections of grief, trauma, politics, and policies. If you think politics and grief have nothing in common (or you think you don’t care about politics!) this short conversation might change your mind.
In this episode we cover:
- Why people get uncomfortable connecting grief & politics
- How evidence of trauma shows up in politics (and what Megan and Hillary Clinton have in common)
- Why conversations about emotions, emotional skills, and mental health have to include conversations about policies and politics
About the guest:
Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books.
Find him at drgabormate.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and research mentioned in this episode
- The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté
- Article on Hillary Clinton’s traumatic family history
- NYT Fighting Maternal Mortality Among Black Women
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not.
In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large. Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the podcast.
In this episode we cover:
- What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease?
- Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications
- How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans?
- Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world
- Why we often ignore other peoples’ pain to make ourselves comfortable
- Does taking pain seriously make you more hopeful?
- Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!)
About the guest:
Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books.
Find him at drgabormate.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and research mentioned in this episode
- The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté
- Scattered Minds by Gabor Maté
- The Wisdom of Trauma - documentary exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.
- Jaak Panksepp researched connections between human emotion processing and other mammals
- Hold Onto Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté
- Research on early trauma in elephants
- The Washington Post article about Megan’s loss
- NYT Mothers are The ‘Shock Absorbers’ Of Our Society
- Article on Hillary Clinton’s traumatic family history
- NYT Fighting Maternal Mortality Among Black Women
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Season three begins Monday May 8th, with all new shows and amazing guests. Follow now so you don’t miss an episode!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What would be different if we could all just tell the truth about our lives?
Welcome to SEASON THREE of It’s OK that You’re Not OK: the podcast (formerly known as Here After with Megan Devine).
I started this show to talk about grief, and it’s grown to be so much more than that - it’s become a place for real conversations about life, and love, and loss, and even… hope.
In season three, episode zero, we cover the name change (FKA: Here After with Megan Devine), explore the worlds we create when we decide to talk about difficult things, and get a little preview of this season’s guests.
This season is FULL of deeply fascinating conversations with wonderful people. Guests include:
- Baratunde Thurston on the twin arcs of grief and celebration that weave through his work as an author, speaker, and TV host.
- Musician Sarah Ramey shares the joy of having her song featured in an episode of the hit series Wednesday, and the grief of being a person with a chronic illness in an industry that doesn’t care if you’re too sick to create more music.
- Creative Live founder Chase Jarvis talks about whether a financially successful, able bodied white male is really allowed to feel grief or exhaustion.
- Trauma expert Dr. Gabor Maté describes how disallowing grief creates a disconnected, often violent world - and of course, what we can do about it.
- And so many more conversations with kind, thoughtful people, like Rachel Cargle, Maggie Smith, Valarie Kaur, Pooja Lakshmin, Bill McKibben… the list is long, and I can’t wait for you to meet them all.
About your host:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’sIt’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. It’s OK that You’re Not OK - you’re in good company.
Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
In this final episode of season two, we answer the central question from episode one: is there any hope? Okay, well we don’t answer it. But we do review what we’ve learned. Turns out, everyone has an opinion about hope - from the creative to the bleak to the functional. Maybe one of these versions speaks to you.
Click here for the episode webpage.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
About our guest:
Megan Devine is a best-selling author, psychotherapist, grief advocate and podcast host. Her book It’s OK that You’re Not OK is the go-to resource for over half a million people. Her animated short, “How to Help a Grieving Friend,” is used in training programs around the world. She’s been published in GQ, The New York Times, and The Washington Post, and has served as a grief expert for major media outlets including NPR, iHeartRadio, and the PBS documentary, Speaking Grief.
For the full episode from each of the guests you heard from in the show:
Nelba Márquez-Greene
Rebecca Woolf
Dr. Rana Awdish
Emily X.R. Pan
Emi Nietfeld
Aubrey Hirsch
Koshin Paley Ellison
Leanne Pedante
Alex Elle
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Visit megandevine.co to get in touch.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
Nobody likes to talk about pet loss… but everybody wants to talk about pet loss. What a difficult scenario that is! Veterinary oncologist Dr. Renee Alsarraf joins us to talk about grief, professionalism, and the importance of being human - on the job and off.
In this episode we cover:
- The whole truth about loving - and losing - your pets
- The terrible advice Dr. Renee Alsarraf’s grad school teacher gave her (and why she refused to listen)
- Why veterinarians and other professionals should really NOT check their human emotions at the door
- When it’s time to welcome a new love into your life (human or otherwise)
- How Dr. Alsarraf’s experience with veterinary oncology did (and didn’t) prepare her for her own cancer diagnosis
Click here for the episode webpage.
Notable quotes:
“I think we tend to see our pets - especially when they're ailing - more like our little babies, and so we want to protect them. That's our innate role. And yet we can't protect them from the inevitable. That's really hard.” - Dr. Renee Alsarraf
“You can't push emotions down and expect them to not pop back up in other places.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Dr. Renee Alsarraf is a veterinary oncologist, lecturer, and philanthropist. Her new book Sit Stay Heal is a moving and uplifting memoir of an esteemed veterinary oncologist fighting to save her four-legged patients while making sense of her own unexpected cancer diagnosis.
Find Dr. Alsarraf on IG @reneealsarraf and read more about her book at sitstayhealbook.com
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
“Getting people to feel angry with me makes me feel less alone, less helpless. (It) makes me feel like, okay, there’s a whole team of us. We're all gonna do it.” - Writer and illustrator, Aubrey Hirsch
The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want.
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope.
In this episode we cover:
- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing.
- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring.
- Connecting through the power of storytelling
Click here for the episode webpage.
Notable quotes:
“I feel very helpless and I don't wanna feel like that because I know that to be fcked is a spectrum and we can be more fcked than we are now or less fcked. It's not a binary. I want us to move in the right direction (less fcked), and I want to be a part of that movement - even if my action comes too late for some.” - Aubrey Hirsch
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.
Additional resources
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. She publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity.
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, https://aubreyhirsch.com
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Visit megandevine.co to get in touch.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”? This week on Here After, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you.
If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship.
In this episode we cover:
- Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
- How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
- The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD
Click here for the episode webpage.
Notable quotes:
“People are like, oh, you're so brave to have shared your story. And I was like, I burned down my whole life. There was nothing to lose anymore, so there was nothing to be brave about.” - Stephanie Foo
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.
Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma
Find her at stephaniefoo.me and follow her on Instagram @foofoofoo and Twitter @imontheradio
Find a great conversation about What My Bones Know on Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper at this link
Additional resources
It’s OK That You’re Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn’t Understand is a book for grieving people, those who love them, and all those seeking to love themselves—and each other—better. (available in paperback, e-book, & audiobook)
For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Visit megandevine.co to get in touch.
For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
What if you were just about to get divorced, but your partner gets sick? Like really sick? Rebecca Woolf was just about to leave an unhappy marriage when her husband got sick and died. What followed was a crash course in performative grief, and the dismantling of one life in order to build the next. In this episode, we cover love, sex, marriage, divorce, grief, shame, assumptions (both internal and external), and personal agency - it’s QUITE the conversation. Sensitivity note: this episode contains the F word, and references sex.
In this episode we cover:
- The conventions of marriage and grief that trap people in inauthentic versions of themselves
- How you can love someone AND be relieved they’re dead
- Why everyone has an opinion about how soon is too soon to date, have sex, or otherwise live your life after someone dies
- Grieving the time you lost living someone else’s life
- Building your own “house of hope,” according to your own desires
About our guest:
Rebecca Woolf has worked as a writer since her teens - it’s the way she understands both herself and the world. Her essays have appeared on Refinery29, HuffPost, Parenting, and more. She currently authors the bi-weekly column Sex & the Single Mom on romper.com. Her latest book, All of This: a Memoir of Death and Desire, hits the shelves last month.
Find her on IG @rebeccawooolf (with three o’s) and at rebeccawoolf.com
Additional resources
It can be hard to find information about grieving the loss of a complicated relationship (an abusive parent, or an estranged partner, for example). Check out this post on grieving people you didn’t always like.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Talking about difficult things gets easier with practice, and that’s why we’re here. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Visit megandevine.co to get in touch.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
PROLONGED GRIEF DISORDER! It’s everywhere - social media, The New York Times, The Washington Post… it’s the hot new medical condition everyone’s talking about. But why is everyone so mad about it?
This week on the show, an overview of this hotly contested “new” human disorder, and what it means for the average person, for healthcare providers, and honestly - for the whole world. This is one medical diagnosis that affects everyone.
Want your questions answered on the show? Submit your questions at megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Why anyone should care what the APA thinks about grief
- The actual diagnostic criteria for prolonged grief disorder (translated from psych-jargon into the way real people speak)
- Access to care + funding for research: two of the main reasons people think this diagnosis could be helpful (and why it isn’t)
- The real world impact of the DSM: doubling down on shame and misunderstanding
- Why launching new rules about how long it’s ok to grieve is more than a bit problematic while we’re still in the middle of a mass death and mass disabling event (aka the pandemic)
- One surprise reason this diagnosis could be seen as a good thing
Click here for the episode webpage
Notable quotes:
“Grief makes you less productive, and what we value above all else is productivity.” - Megan Devine
Questions to Carry with you:
Read up on the unfolding public conversation about prolonged grief disorder - how do you feel about it? Let us know! Visit megandevine.co
Additional resources
For an interview with both Megan and the author of the NYT article, Ellen Barry, on WGBH TV Boston, click here.
To read Megan’s more detailed response to the NYT article, including tweet-by-tweet takedowns of most of the major “pro disorder” points, check out the original Twitter thread, and the extended thread. Versions of these threads are also on the blog.
Want to read even more about our culture’s deep avoidance of human emotion, and all the ways that messes with day to day life? Maybe more important, want to know what’s actually normal inside grief? Check out Megan’s best-selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK, and follow @refugeingrief on IG/FB/TW
We recommend you check out the Perfectly Normal campaign, serving up just the validation you need when you’re feeling like the only person in the world doing that “weird” thing you do.
Therapist, clinician, or other healthcare provider? Be sure to check out upcoming trainings that address PGD and re-humanizing grief. Follow Megan Devine on LinkedIn, too.
Other articles on prolonged grief disorder include Medicalizing Grief May Threaten Our Ability to Mourn
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
Our early childhood experiences of grief - and how our family systems dealt with loss - have a huge impact on our adult behaviors and relationships. This week, author Allyson Dinneen (Notes from Your Therapist) joins me as we discuss generational grief stories. We also have the first of many conversations addressing your number one most asked question: how does a grieving therapist (or another healthcare provider) go back to work?
About this week’s guest:
Allyson Dinneen is a marriage and family therapist, author, and the creator of the immensely popular Instagram account, Notes from Your Therapist - which is also the name of her recent book. Allyson’s work has been featured in Forbes, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, and more. Find her on IG @notesfromyourtherapist
Questions to Carry with you:
Exploring the risks and rewards of telling the truth
Notable quotes:
“I plan to keep my conversation going with grief my whole life.” - psychotherapist Allyson Dinneen
References:
Megan and Allyson discuss a question from a previous episode that aired on January 3rd. That episode is linked HERE.
Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We’re on break, creating all new episodes for season 3. In the meantime, here’s one of our favorite episodes from the past year. See you soon.
Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation. Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.
In this episode we cover:
- where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
- whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to netflix: HMU!)
- what to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
- and much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently.
Questions to Carry with you:
- rooting out the ways the stages of grief live in your head (it’s not as uncomfortable as it sounds!)
Extra resources: I’ve written a lot about the stages of grief. Check out this article, this instagram post, and for more of my feelings about The Starling, click here. Be sure to pick up It’s OK that You’re Not OK wherever you get your books, too - there’s a lot about the stages in there (including the reasons why graduate programs still teach this outdated model).
For more help navigating grief in the workplace, check out Alica Forneret, Lantern, and Grief Coach. I provide corporate consulting on grief related comms, too. Get in touch via megandevine.co Disclosure: these aren’t paid placements - I’ve worked with all these folks and I super dig them. Go check them (and me!) out.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
In this final episode of season two, we answer the central question from episode one: is there any hope? Okay, well we don’t answer it. But we do review what we’ve learned. Turns out, everyone has an opinion about hope - from the creative to the bleak to the functional. Maybe one of these versions speaks to you.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
About our guest:
Megan Devine is a best-selling author, psychotherapist, grief advocate and podcast host. Her book It’s OK that You’re Not OK is the go-to resource for over half a million people. Her animated short, “How to Help a Grieving Friend,” is used in training programs around the world. She’s been published in GQ, The New York Times, and The Washington Post, and has served as a grief expert for major media outlets including NPR, iHeartRadio, and the PBS documentary, Speaking Grief.
For the full episode from each of the guests you heard from in the show:
Nelba Márquez-Greene
Rebecca Woolf
Dr. Rana Awdish
Emily X.R. Pan
Emi Nietfeld
Aubrey Hirsch
Koshin Paley Ellison
Leanne Pedante
Alex Elle
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Visit megandevine.co to get in touch.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Can you make space for the whole truth in your life? The whole truth of your life? This week, best-selling author Alex Elle talks about the post-partum period after the launch of her newest book, and how her healing is intertwined with hearing the truth - the whole truth - about her own life.
In this episode we cover:
- Why one of Alex’s friends told her she stop hoarding her stories
- How owning your own story - and your own healing - impacts everyone around you
- The intersections of writing, healing, and grief
- How to give yourself permission to heal from the same thing more than once
- Why learning to slow down is the key to self-healing
Notable quote:
“No one taught me how to be a mother. No one taught me how to be warm and nurturing.
I had to figure that out on my own. No one taught me how to hold space and not try to fix someone's tears. I had to figure it out on my own. I think part of my healing and my grief work is (exploring): ‘What did I need that I didn't get?’” - Alex Elle
About our guest:
Alexandra Elle is a New York Times Bestselling author, wellness educator, and certified Breathwork coach. Her work has been featured by a wide range of media outlets, including The New York Times, NPR, Good Morning America, Essence, MindBodyGreen, Forbes, and many others. She teaches workshops and leads retreats centered around writing-to-heal and self-care. Find her on social media @alex_elle, and at alexelle.com
Additional resources
Every month I host a live video Q&A session. If you’ve ever wished you could talk to me directly, this is by far the easiest way to do it. All the information is at my patreon page, right here. Hope to see you there each month.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? Message us at megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
A bonus episode (and a re-release) for Valentine’s week - the love story at the core of the best-selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK, this podcast, and all of Megan’s work. This episode is unlike our normal weekly show. Tune in, and let us know if you’d like more occasional bonus episodes.
Resources:
This essay first appeared in a slightly different form on Modern Loss
Get in touch:
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions. All the info at this link.
Thanks for listening to this week’s bonus episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Check out Megan’s best-selling books -It’s OK That You’re Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The world can feel like such a lonely place sometimes. You ever feel like there’s not enough love and support to go around? Like, there’s a severe shortage of compassion in the world, both for you and well, everyone? Me too, friends. To get us into this topic, this week on Here After with Megan Devine, we cover grief comparisons, like whether divorce and death should be compared, or the death of anyone should be compared to the loss of a pet. Of course the short answer is no: grief comparisons are never useful. For the long answer though - listen to the show.
This episode is basically my TED talk, if I had one, on how we create that support-filled world we all want (and deserve). It’s my personal favorite episode of season one, brought to you again for this valentine’s day.
In this episode we cover:
- Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
- Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them?
- How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same
- The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it)
- Fun ideas to help you seed love and compassion in the world, plus the one habit to break and re-make
Notable quote:
“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love.” - Megan Devine
Resources:
Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love filled world we all want: Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters
Terminology update: in this episode, I use the term “gender fluid,” but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.
The “is there love available here?” question comes from Mark Silver.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry?
In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?
All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly.
In this two-part episode we cover:
- What is the right amount of anger?
- Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful
- What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??)
- Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
- Is anger the most social emotion?
- How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
- Finding your best community by embracing your anger
About our guest:
Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in Time, the Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly
Additional resources
We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com
To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK. If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry?
In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?
All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly.
In this two-part episode we cover:
- What is the right amount of anger?
- Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful
- What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??)
- Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
- Is anger the most social emotion?
- How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
- Finding your best community by embracing your anger
About our guest:
Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in Time, the Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly
Additional resources
We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com
To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK. If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Dr. Errol Pierre is a corporate executive, leader, mentor, and outspoken advocate for healthcare equity in the US and Haiti. HIs new book, The Way Up, helps underrepresented individuals from all ethnic backgrounds achieve their professional goals and elevate their careers in today's workplace.
What you probably don’t know is that grief - in one form or another - plays a part in every one of those roles.
In this episode we cover:
- Why a book about climbing the corporate ladder gets the spotlight on a show about grief
- How little kid Errol’s delayed root canal influenced adult Errol’s entire career
- Can we get behind the headlines and really understand the actual humans behind the crisis in healthcare access? (hint: yes, but it involves activating certain brain centers)
- Building the equitable world from the ground up: Errol’s work in Haiti
- Why making healthcare more accessible will prevent more grief (when it’s avoidable), and reduce suffering (when it’s unavoidable)
- Navigating racism in the corporate world
About our guest:
Dr. Errol Pierre is the Senior Vice President of State Programs at a large non-profit health plan in New York. He provides leadership, mentorship, and guidance to professionals of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into leadership positions. He’s also fiercely committed to healthcare equity - building a world where systemic equity is built into the foundation of all new ventures.
Find his new book, The Way Up: Climbing the Corporate Mountain as a Professional of Color, wherever you get books.
Follow Dr. Errol Pierre at @ErrolLPierre on most social platforms, or visit errolpierre.com
Additional resources:
For more on grief in the workplace, read “The Burden of Bereavement: Grief is the latest challenge for employers in the coronavirus era” and “How to Talk to a Grieving Customer”
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Amy Choi and Rebecca Lehrer are used to exploring complexities. As hosts of the podcast The Mash-up Americans, they cover all sorts of complex intersections of identity and culture. In this episode of Here After, they join me to talk about Mashup Americans’ newest series, Grief, Collected.
In this episode we cover:
- Amy’s brilliant grief avoidance/childbirth analogy & what we need in order to come out of our dark little nests into the light of grief
- The real nuance in whether most people are over the “acute phase” of grief after one year
- Will listening to “Ripple” by the Grateful Dead elicit grief bursts from everyone, or is it just us?
- Why NOT grieving was the right move for people fleeing wars and political unrest
- What Amy and Rebecca learned - about grief, about American culture, and about themselves - in producing their show, Grief, Collected (spoiler: they learned a lot!)
- Why telling the truth about grief - without trying to resolve it - is the best hope we have for the future
Content note: mention of pregnancy and childbirth
Notable quotes:
“One of those bummers is you can't exercise once, and then you're done exercising. It’s like - it f*cking sucks that you just have to keep doing it. And I think that's the thing with grief - you can't mourn something once and then be like, okay, well, now, I'm done with the grief portion of my life.” - Rebecca Lehrer
“NOT grieving is actually a survival strategy.” - Amy Choi
About our guests:
Amy Choi is co-founder and editorial director of The Mash-Up Americans. A Korean-American married to a Colombian-Mexican-American, she is mom to two feisty Korombexican-Americans: in other words, The Future of America. She specializes in getting people to tell stories they never expected to share.
Rebecca Lehrer is the co-founder and CEO of The Mash-Up Americans. She’s spent 18+ years doing strategy, marketing, and audience development in media, arts, and culture. Her work focuses on the shared cultural experiences that bring people together, and re-centering stories on voices you don’t usually hear.
Additional resources
Check out the entire Grief, Collected series at griefcollected.com and The Mash-Up Americans at mashupamericans.com
For more on historical responses to loss, and ways to change the entire culture, personally and collectively, check out It’s OK That You’re Not OK wherever you get your books
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Have you ever wanted to just SMASH things? Leanne Pedante and her husband Miles’ relationship was built on bravery and communication - they worked so hard to reach the next step together, excited to explore the edges of possibility in love and in life. On his way back to see Leanne after several months away, Miles’ car veered off the road, and he was killed.
In the just under two years since, Leanne has continued to grow the virtual reality fitness community, Supernatural. As a late-comer to fitness, Leanne is no stranger to using movement as a way to process and express pain. In today’s show, we discuss the ways grief has upended her life, and the ways that both movement and community have kept her alive - willing, at least most days, to lean into the full experience of life.
In this episode we cover:
- Punk-style relationships: how Leanne and Miles created a marriage that suited them
- What one friend told Leanne, and how those words kept her tethered to the world
- Why grief-informed fitness should really be a thing
- The weird world of encouraging others to do things you’re not comfortable doing yourself
About our guest:
Leanne Pedante is a trainer and trauma + resiliency coach, whose work focuses on connecting people to their bodies and to their full potential. She works as both coach and the Head of Fitness for Supernatural, the VR fitness platform. Her own workouts let her celebrate her physical and mental strength and she wants to show others how to access the pride and power within joyful movement. Her husband, Miles, died in a car accident in 2021.
Additional resources:
Sign up for Leanne’s newsletter and check out the other community-building things she’s created at her website
Try Supernatural with a free trial (you do need a VR headset)
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Is acceptance overrated? What happens when you have to face a new year without your person in it (or without the health you used to have!)? In this special two-part episode, we face the new year together - with a re-release of my conversation with historian, author, and queen of awkward conversations, Kate Bowler.
In this episode:
- How do you have hope for the year to come when right now maybe isn’t so great?
- Acceptance, moving forward, and ferocious self-advocacy
- The Math of Suffering: this year, last year, and measuring love
- Why social bonds matter, and what happens when no one sees you
Notable quotes:
“Aggressive futurism prevents us from being honest” - Dr. Kate Bowler
“I want my suffering to be translatable. If I can't be translated, I can't be seen.” - Dr. Kate Bowler
“We weaponize acceptance. It's applied from the outside as this end goal that you need to get to in order to be palatable to the others around you.” - Megan
About Kate:
Kate Bowler, PhD, is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason, Dr. Bowler stages a national conversation around why it’s so difficult to speak frankly about suffering through her popular podcast, Everything Happens. She has appeared on NPR, The TODAY Show, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and TIME Magazine. Her latest book, No Cure For Being Human), grapples with her diagnosis, her ambition, and her faith as she tries to come to terms with limitations in a culture that says anything is possible. Follow her @Katecbowler on all social Platforms.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your comments or thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The end of the year is always a flurry of resolutions and “next year will be even better!” sentiments. If your life has been anything but awesome lately, a “new year, new start” can feel impossible. In this special two part episode, we face the new year together - with a re-release of my conversation with historian, author, and queen of awkward conversations, Kate Bowler.
In this part one of this episode:
- How do you have hope for the year to come when right now maybe isn’t so great?
- Why New Year’s resolutions tend to make life feel like an endless self-improvement project
- Finding motivation to set goals for yourself
- The difference between transactional hope and functional hope
About Kate:
Kate Bowler, PhD, is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason, Dr. Bowler stages a national conversation around why it’s so difficult to speak frankly about suffering through her popular podcast, Everything Happens. She has appeared on NPR, The TODAY Show, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and TIME Magazine. Her latest book, No Cure For Being Human), grapples with her diagnosis, her ambition, and her faith as she tries to come to terms with limitations in a culture that says anything is possible. Follow her @Katecbowler on all social Platforms.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your comments or thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
My dad used to read ‘‘Twas the Night Before Christmas” every Christmas Eve when I was a kid, after dinner and before we opened our Christmas pjs.
So many of you are missing your dads, or grandparents, or the father of your kids. This year, I asked my dad to record the Christmas Eve classic for the show. I wanted you to have a stand-in grandpa, in case you were missing one of your own.
From my family to yours, may you have the best holiday season available to you.
(‘Twas the Night Before Christmas by Clement Clarke Moore was first published in 1823)
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your comments or thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Ever wonder what doctors say about their patients when they think no one can hear? Dr. Rana Awdish doesn’t have to wonder - as a patient, she overheard a lot of distressing things. Her experience led her to change how medical providers speak about - and to - their patients, spreading compassion through communication (which we know is a mission dear to my heart). Listen in to hear Dr. Awdish’s take on the pressure on healthcare workers, too.
“I've come to know that people call you a hero when they're going to force you to betray yourself, and that that is a signal that you are being sent into a situation that will not leave you whole.” - Dr. Rana Awdish
In this episode we cover:
- The “two educations” of Dr. Awdish - med school and a life threatening illness
- Why miscommunication is such a dangerous medical practice
- The well-intentioned, but wrong approach of trying to help people survive a violation of their values and their beliefs by reminding them of their strengths
- Being present is only the first step - validation is where the real healing begins
- Why compassionate communication helps doctors - maybe even more than it helps patients
- The very cool CLEAR program - it uses trained actors to help doctors and medical providers learn how to connect with patients going through some of the hardest times of their lives
Content note: mention of life threatening illness, pregnancy loss, and the medical industry.
Notable quotes:
“The work is to grow a heart that can hold all of it, even now. Even this.” - Dr. Rana Awdish
“The best medicine in the world doesn't work on the wrong story - so you better know your patient's story.” - Dr. Rana Awdish, citing Jay Baruch’s work in narrative medicine
About our guest:
Dr. Rana Awdish is a critical care physician operating on the front lines during COVID-19 at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, MI. Her own serious illness in 2008 has informed her belief in the power of compassion, sacred listening, and community. As medical director of the Care Experience for the Henry Ford Healthcare System, she is training staff to practice empathy in critical care. Find her book, In Shock: My journey from death to recovery and the redemptive power of hope, at ranaawdishmd.com.
Additional resources:
Read “restoration in the aftermath” from Dr. Awdish here
Read “the shape of the shore” here
Creative Writing as a Medical Instrument - paper by Jay Baruch, cited by Dr. Awdish
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
It’s been ten years since the massacre at Sandy Hook elementary where 20 children and 6 adults were murdered in an act of public gun violence. While we’ve got your attention in this flurry of ten year anniversary media reports, Sandy Hook parent survivor Nelba Márquez-Greene wants you to know what survival really looks like.
This is a re-release of the first episode of season two. On this week’s show, Nelba and I discuss what it’s like to live such a public grief, and what it means to find joy - and hope - in an often violent world.
In this episode we cover:
- Supporting each other: the difference between an “inside the house” friend and an “on the porch” friend.
- Why no single form of advocacy for survivors is right for all survivors
- What’s missing from our ideas about “resilience”
- Where your money goes when you donate funds in the wake of a tragedy
- The importance of telling your own story in the ways you want to tell it (no matter who demands a soundbite)
- What to do when the next act of gun violence happens
Notable quotes:
- “My son was eight when his sister was murdered. He has every reason to not hope. In this country, boys who look like him are murdered with impunity more often than we report. And my son still has hope. And that gives me great hope when I can't find it.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene
- “What’s the aim of a media outlet, or a news outlet, when they tell a specific (often traumatic) story? Like, yes, they want clicks & advertising, but they need emotional impact to get those clicks. Do you know what has emotional impact? The f*cking truth.” - Megan Devine
About our guest: Nelba Márquez-Greene is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in grief, loss, trauma and their impact on individuals and systems. What her official bio doesn’t say is that her child was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary.
In 2018, she was profiled as one of “100 Women of Color” and a YWCA (CT) Women’s Leadership Award recipient. She was featured in People Magazine’s October 2019 issue as one of Ten Women Changing the World and also recognized by Chelsea Clinton and Hillary Clinton in their Book of Gutsy Women.
Find Nelba at thisgrievinglife.com
Follow her on Instagram and Facebook @anagraceproject
Follow her on Twitter at @Nelba_MG and @anagraceproject
Additional resources
There are many organizations fighting to end gun violence. Here are just a few:
Moms Demand Action, Change the Ref, and Brady United. As Nelba suggested, if you want to support survivors of gun violence, find ways to support survivors in underserved communities, especially if their tragedy didn’t make the national news.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The rags to riches success story is everywhere - usually with a side of trauma somewhere: the homeless child with mental health issues overcomes all the odds to win an Ivy league scholarship. After graduation, they continue to “rise above” their past by joining the world’s most famous tech company. If they can do it, anyone can.
It’s a story we hear over and over again. But what if those transformation stories actually hide some deeply screwed up practices? Author Emi Nietfeld joins us to explore our beliefs about resilience, and our weird fascination with stories of triumph.
In this episode we cover:
- The main problem with “survival” memoirs
- Who gets to survive? Who gets to thrive? Whose stories are believed?
- The underbelly of scholarship programs (hint: the more tragic your story, the more money you get)
- why one successful person can undermine everyone else’s chances of being seen and believed
- How the practice of motivational interviewing could change the course of mental healthcare
Content note: this episode includes discussion of eating disorders, self harm, and hospitalization
Notable quotes:
“As a culture, we believe in this fantasy that anything bad can be made good, that no matter what we lose, what tragedies happen to us, we can - through our sheer force of will - twist them into something better. And that feels awful if you're the person who's lost something.” - Emi Nietfeld
About our guest:
Emi Nietfeld is the author of Acceptance, a memoir of survival that explores our beliefs about resilience, and our weird fascination with stories of triumph. Her essays have appeared in New York Times, Longreads, Vice, and Boulevard, they’ve been cited in The Best American Essays of 2021 and have been nominated for the Pushcart Prize.
Find her at eminietfeld.com
Additional resources
The basics of motivational interviewing
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Dog search team expert Cat Warren’s current work focuses on historical research, specifically: searching for abandoned or hidden burial grounds. This fascinating branch of search work combines history, racism, grief, and social reckoning.
In this episode we cover:
- How dogs let us talk about historical acts of violence in ways that seem impossible otherwise
- Are there bones in the highway you’re driving? Probably yes.
- Where to even start looking for burial grounds someone wanted to keep hidden
- How Cat’s atheism intersects with searching for remains
- Cat’s version of hope: is it ugly, or is it beautiful? Hard to say.
About our guest:
Cat Warren is the New York Times bestselling author of What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World. The book tells the story of learning to work with her impossible young shepherd as a cadaver dog to find the missing and dead. It won critical acclaim and was long listed for the PEN/E.O. Wilson Literary Science Writing Award. She taught science writing, journalism, and creative nonfiction at North Carolina State University for 26 years before retiring in 2021.
Additional resources
All of Cat’s information is at her website
NY Times article on cadaver dogs and archaeology
African American burial grounds & cadaver dogs
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
You’ve probably seen it - dramatizations of search dogs, running through the woods, noses to the ground, looking for a missing person, or for human remains. We’ve got a weird fascination with this stuff in the media, but when it’s real life - well, if it’s your loved one those search dogs are looking for, it’s a whole different story.
What’s it like being the human half of a cadaver search dog team? Expert Cat Warren lays it all out this week.
In this episode we cover:
- What’s it really like to work a crime scene with your dog? Is it cool or creepy?
- How do we navigate fascination and respect when it comes to other peoples’ trauma?
- Why people were mad that Cat’s book was more about the dog than it was a “true crime” exposé
- The difference between resolution and closure
- How do first responders and search teams deal with so many unhappy endings and unanswered questions?
Notable quotes:
“True crime podcasts keep us at a safe distance. They allow us to enter into the sphere of death, but keep us far enough away from it that we don't need to experience any feeling of grief. Crime survivors don’t have that luxury.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Cat Warren is the New York Times bestselling author of What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World. The book tells the story of learning to work with her impossible young shepherd as a cadaver dog to find the missing and dead. It won critical acclaim and was long listed for the PEN/E.O. Wilson Literary Science Writing Award. She taught science writing, journalism, and creative nonfiction at North Carolina State University for 26 years before retiring in 2021.
Additional resources
All of Cat’s information is at her website
NY Times article on cadaver dogs and archaeology
African American burial grounds & cadaver dogs
The Collective for Radical Death Studies
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
If you’ve been worried about bad things happening to the people you love, is it possible that an actual bad thing might bring temporary relief? Obviously, the answer is “no not really,” but in this conversation with author Mary Laura Philpott, we explore the weird complexity of the anxious (and loving) mind, and the hoops we jump through to ensure our own survival.
Mary Laura’s latest book, Bomb Shelter, traces her son’s epilepsy - from being woken up early one morning to the sounds of what would turn out to be her son’s first seizure - out into the anxiety many of us hold for those we love, from the people in our care to the wider world, to pretty much everything ever. As always, we close with our guest’s current working version of hope. Don’t miss it.
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
In this episode we cover:
- Tools for writing about difficult things, including distance, numbness, and turning yourself into a somewhat fictional character
- Why airports should have crying lounges
- The anxiety & relative effectiveness of protecting everyone you love from harm
- Mary Laura’s version of hope, applicable even while the world melts and her kids leave home
About our guest:
Mary Laura Philpott, nationally bestselling author of I Miss You When I Blink and Bomb Shelter: Love, Time, and Other Explosives, writes about the overlap of the absurd and the profound in everyday life. Her writing has been featured by The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic, among many other publications. Find her books (print and audio) wherever you find books.
Find her at https://marylauraphilpott.com, on TW @MaryLauraPh, and on IG @MaryLauraPhilpott
Additional resources:
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
After a life-altering loss, feeling anxious about the possibility of more loss is #PerfectlyNormalGrief.
Want to start writing the story of your life (and your grief)? Join the next open session of the Writing Your Grief community.
Megan’s first book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK, has an entire section devoted to discussing anxiety, including tools to manage your feelings when the worst has already happened.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Look, life is weird and difficult. Social situations are hard to navigate. The world is too loud or too scratchy. You’re too loud or too bright or just “too much.” And then, a new diagnosis helps you understand all that friction in a new way. It doesn’t magically make things better, but it does make things…. Different.
On today’s Here After with Megan Devine, Lauren Ober joins us to talk about The Loudest Girl in the World and her journey to understand what it means to be on the autism spectrum, living life as a newly diagnosed autistic person.
In this episode we cover:
- How childhood experiences of shame and “othering” create lifelong ripples
- Why personality is a work in progress
- Can our definitions of “acceptable” grief expand to include a lot more of everyday life?
- What it means to be on the autism spectrum and how to live life as a newly diagnosed autistic person
- The accidental activist: how just living your life in full view helps people you don’t even know
Grief is always in the room. Want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Notable quotes:
“It's like there's a particular type of thing you're allowed to grieve, like your cat dying, but you're not allowed to grieve the restaurant closing, a place that was filled with joy and delight. But you think - that’s stupid. Why are you crying over that? My working definition of grief is just too narrow.” - Lauren Ober
“When we make something visible, it allows other people to be curious about it, and to try it on for themselves. That to me is a really hopeful thing.” - Megan Devine
Guest bio:
Lauren Ober is a podcast host and producer, currently in production on a show about Koko the signing gorilla. Her latest podcast, The Loudest Girl in the World, is the story of Lauren's journey to understand what it means to be on the autism spectrum and how to live life as a newly diagnosed autistic person.
Lauren hosted Spectacular Failures, one of TIME magazine's top 10 podcasts of 2019, and NPR's The Big Listen, a nationally distributed broadcast about podcasts. She’s an award-winning public radio reporter, producing stories for outlets like NPR, 99% Invisible, and Criminal.
Additional resources:
Listen to Lauren’s podcast The Loudest Girl in the World
Alice Wong’s Disability Visibility Project
Follow Lauren on Twitter @OberandOut
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention.
In this episode we cover:
- How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others
- Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions
- How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm
- Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment
- Koshin’s new book, Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion
Notable quotes:
“That's why those very powerful giants of greed and resentment and delusion are so important. Tell me about how those things affect you, and I’ll tell you how they affect
"Only then can we get really real.” - Koshin Paley Ellison
“You'll never be free until you can be still with your pain.” - Koshin Paley Ellison
“We're in such a habit of managing the feelings instead of naming the experience.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom.
Koshin’s work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion.
Additional resources:
Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of Here After. Listen to that episode here.
Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at zencare.org
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow Here After with Megan Devine on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
On the outside, veteran Jason Kander had everything going for him: successful political career, lovely family, the respect of his peers. But on the inside, he was struggling: nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts were constant companions.
Jason joins us to talk about his new book, Invisible Storm, and what it really takes to go from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. (don’t let that “post traumatic growth” turn you away from this episode! There are no shortcuts to happiness here.)
In this episode we cover:
- Why most returning vets believe that getting help is great - for other people.
- The concept of “stolen valor” and how it relates to treatment options for PTSD
- How Jason used shame as a way to give himself the illusion of control
- A really helpful golf club analogy to describe the difference between deployment and civilian life
- What “redemptive heroism” is, and why there’s a much better way to manage PTSD
- Every trauma is valid trauma: avoiding the temptation of comparing emotional injury
- How saying “wow that was really f*cked up” makes things better - for everyone
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Notable quotes:
“Therapy for me was a lot like going to graduate school, but it was just a graduate program in my brain.” - Jason Kander
About our guest: Jason Kander joined the Army National Guard in 2005 after getting a law degree at Georgetown University. He deployed in 2006 to Afghanistan, where his mission was to assess the corruption levels of former Afghan warlords and government leaders.
Ten years after serving in Afghanistan, Jason Kander was a rising star in the Democratic Party, exploring a presidential run. But outside of the political spotlight, he was racked by nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts. His new book, Invisible Storm, shares the story of his experience with PTSD, and his hopes for anyone who’s survived trauma.
Jason is the president of the Veterans Community Project, a national nonprofit organization, and the host of Majority 54, one of the nation's most popular political podcasts.
Additional resources
Learn about the Veterans Community Project
Follow Jason Kander on social media @jasonkander
The book Jason mentioned is Tribe by Sebastian Junger
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What’s happening in Iran and why are you hearing about it so much?
This week on Here After, Iranian-American actor & writer Nazanin Nour on the protests unfolding in Iran, grief in the Iranian global community, and how the whole world has the power to fight for women, life, and freedom. This episode is so special - I need you to listen.
In this episode we cover:
- What’s happening in Iran and why the whole world is watching
- Why violence thrives in secrecy (no matter where it’s happening)
- Grief and guilt in the Iranian diaspora: what it’s like having friends and family members inside Iran (including how well meaning friends don’t quite get it)
- The power of solidarity - how being SEEN gives you the courage to continue fighting
- The ways mourning and protest are woven together through Persian culture
- Tangible actions you can take to support the people of Iran
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Notable quotes:
“Outrage is an act of grief.” - Nazanin Nour
“The guilt I feel for leaving unscathed thanks to the country of my birth has never left me.” - Nazanin Nour
“Hope is watching the Iranian people on the ground in their fight - how they're not backing down and they're not giving up - that gives me hope and strength to continue for them. Because if they're actually risking their lives, literally risking their lives, the least I can do is continue to be loud for them from over here.” - Nazanin Nour
About our guest:
Nazanin Nour is an Iranian American actress, model and writer. She’s appeared on several television films and shows, including Madam Secretary, and Persia's Got Talent. She’s one of several Irani-Americans in the public eye making sure that the world knows what’s happening in Iran right now: widespread protests following the murder of Mahsa Amini, and the violence that continues against the Irani people by the dictatorship. Follow her on IG @iamnazaninnour
Additional resources
If you need even more encouragement to join this fight, watch this short video from Cee-Roo on IG.
Follow Nazanin Nour and other Iranians on social media, and share news from the Iranian protests far and wide. Keep the pressure up.
Sign the Amnesty International Petition to call on states to set up an independent UN mechanism now to investigate and ensure accountability for the most serious crimes under international law in Iran.
Participate in the global campaign to stand with the women of Iran by sending a lock of hair to your elected officials. Read more about the #HairForFreedom campaign in this article.
The passage I read comes from Nazanin’s article in the French publication Les Glorieuses. Read it here.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your comments or thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Nobody likes to talk about pet loss… but everybody wants to talk about pet loss. What a difficult scenario that is! Veterinary oncologist Dr. Renee Alsarraf joins us to talk about grief, professionalism, and the importance of being human - on the job and off.
In this episode we cover:
- The whole truth about loving - and losing - your pets
- The terrible advice Dr. Renee Alsarraf’s grad school teacher gave her (and why she refused to listen)
- Why veterinarians and other professionals should really NOT check their human emotions at the door
- When it’s time to welcome a new love into your life (human or otherwise)
- How Dr. Alsarraf’s experience with veterinary oncology did (and didn’t) prepare her for her own cancer diagnosis
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Notable quotes:
“I think we tend to see our pets - especially when they're ailing - more like our little babies, and so we want to protect them. That's our innate role. and yet we can't protect them from the inevitable. That's really hard.” - Dr. Renee Alsarraf
“You can't push emotions down and expect them to not pop back up in other places.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Dr. Renee Alsarraf is a veterinary oncologist, lecturer, and philanthropist. Her new book Sit Stay Heal is a moving and uplifting memoir of an esteemed veterinary oncologist fighting to save her four-legged patients while making sense of her own unexpected cancer diagnosis.
Find Dr. Alsarraf on IG @reneealsarraf and read more about her book at sitstayhealbook.com
Additional resources:
Grief is everywhere. Want to become a more grief-informed therapist or provider? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
NYT best-selling author Emily X.R. Pan had a problem: she wanted to write about her grandmother’s complex and fascinating life in 1920s Taiwan, but the task seemed too overwhelming. A deeply personal experience of grief gave her new insight into not only the novel-in-progress, but her family’s experience of loss as it was passed down through her family line. The novel became The Astonishing Color of After, a glorious, complex story of love, family, magic, and loss.
Emily joins us to talk about writing grief into your stories, and how writing itself is a way to claim (or reclaim) our human right to feel all of our feelings, even the ones our histories taught us to suppress.
In this episode we cover:
- How a relative’s death changed early drafts of Emily’s book
- The ways our parents and grandparents' views of death and grief impact our own ability to feel a whole range of emotions
- Making books into safe spaces to explore the complexities of being human
- Emily’s tips for writing “believable” grieving characters
If you’re a writer of any kind and you’d like to include grief in your work, listen carefully to this conversation.
Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link.
Notable quotes:
"I'm very annoyed by positive vibes." - Emily X.R. Pan
About our guest:
Emily X.R. Pan is the New York Times and National Indie bestselling author of THE ASTONISHING COLOR OF AFTER, named by TIME Magazine as one of the 100 Best YA Books of All Time. Her recent novel, AN ARROW TO THE MOON, is available now, wherever you get your books. Visit Emily online at exrpan.com, and find her on Twitter and Instagram: @exrpan
Additional resources
Those of us living inside grief know: there is nothing to be fixed. Here’s the thing - telling the truth about your grief is one of the kindest things you can do for yourself. Being allowed to tell the whole truth makes things better, even when they can’t be made right. The Writing Your Grief e-course and online community is a safe, supportive space to write about your grief. The next 30-day session starts soon. Learn all about it here.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
“Getting people to feel angry with me makes me feel less alone, less helpless. (It) makes me feel like, okay, there’s a whole team of us. We're all gonna do it.” - Writer and illustrator, Aubrey Hirsch
The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want.
PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope.
In this episode we cover:
- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream
- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone
- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing.
- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring.
- Connecting through the power of storytelling
Notable quotes:
“I feel very helpless and I don't wanna feel like that because I know that to be fcked is a spectrum and we can be more fcked than we are now or less fcked. It's not a binary. I want us to move in the right direction (less fcked), and I want to be a part of that movement - even if my action comes too late for some.” - Aubrey Hirsch
About our guest:
Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.
Additional resources
Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. She publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity.
Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, https://aubreyhirsch.com
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The scene is 1990’s New York City. Young David Ambroz and his two siblings are homeless, sleeping in bus shelters and bathing in public restrooms, under the care of his mentally ill mother. The child he was is still evident in the person he grew up to be: a nationally recognized expert on child welfare, and a staunch supporter of the foster care system. In this episode, we discuss both the horror and the joy of his childhood, landing on a vision of hope for the future that everyone (yes, you!) can help bring into fruition.
Sensitivity note: this episode explores the realities of being a homeless child, which includes brief examples of cruelty, and non-graphic mention of sexual assault.
In this episode we cover:
- The terrifying, liberating power of putting your personal story out into the world for everyone to see
- “Occasional angels” and how they helped young David survive the cruelty of his upbringing
- The intersections of mental illness, homelessness, and poverty
- Why homeless kids need to see themselves in books and movies
- Beyond fostering: how anyone can take action to create the kind of world where kids are safe and loved and cared for
Notable quotes:
“It's all out there now. There's no taking it back. And it is the scariest, most beautiful, important thing I've ever done. It's the most self loving thing I could have done. In trying to help other people, I inherently helped myself.” - David Ambroz
“I want you to believe that you can do something. I'm here today because people did. And I want you to believe that you can create another David Ambroz. Together, we could create a system that produces only beautiful children that reach their full potential.” - David Ambroz
About our guest:
David Ambroz is a national poverty and child welfare expert and advocate. He was recognized by President Obama as an American Champion of Change. He currently serves as the Head of Community Engagement (West) for Amazon, coordinating with non-profits and community leaders for social good. Previously he led Corporate Social Responsibility for Walt Disney Television, and served as the President of the Los Angeles City Planning Commission, and as a California Child Welfare Councilmember. After growing up homeless and then in foster care, he graduated from Vassar and later from UCLA School of Law (J.D.). He is a foster dad and lives in Los Angeles, CA.
David is the author of the memoir A Place Called Home, a heart-wrenching yet inspiring story, depicting childhood poverty and homelessness as it is experienced by so many young people. It’s at once a gripping personal account of deprivation—how one boy survived it, and ultimately thrived—and a resounding call from the grown-up David, now a nationally recognized child welfare advocate, for us all to move from empathy to action.
Follow David Ambroz on Twitter @DaveAmbroz, on Instagram @hjdambroz, and on LinkedIn
Additional resources
Just talking about foster care can help foster care. Check out FosterMore, the foundation David co-founded with his sister, Jennifer Perry.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Our fears for the future of this planet are part of an interwoven story of grief and hope. While it’s easy to feel overwhelmed and defeated, author Stephanie Foo (What My Bones Know) has found one small consistent act that grounds her, and gives her a hope for the world: she volunteers with the urban parks system. If your climate anxiety has felt too big to tackle, don’t miss this short bonus episode - you might just find a doorway to your own place in the woods.
In this episode we cover:
- The difference between “good immigrant” plants and “bad immigrant” plants, and how that relates to the climate emergency
- How being a park steward has given Stephanie hope for the future AND a budding community (ok, pun intended)
- What trees teach us about weathering trauma
Notable quotes:
“My action is relatively small, but I think it's really important. I kill plants.” - Stephanie Foo
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. She lives in New York City with her husband, where she is a Parks Department Super Steward.
Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma
Follow her on Instagram @foofoofoo and Twitter @imontheradio
Find a great conversation about What My Bones Know on Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper at this link
Additional resources
It’s OK That You’re Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn’t Understand is a book for grieving people, those who love them, and all those seeking to love themselves—and each other—better. (available in paperback, e-book, & audiobook)
For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)
For a deep dive into the environmental activism of the 90s and early 2000s, check out the work of Joanna Macy. A lot of our current understanding of the mental health of activists comes from Macy’s work.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you.
Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”? This week on Here After, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you.
If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship.
In this episode we cover:
- Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
- How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
- The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD
Notable quotes:
“People are like, oh, you're so brave to have shared your story. And I was like, I burned down my whole life. There was nothing to lose anymore, so there was nothing to be brave about.” - Stephanie Foo
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.
Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma
Find her at stephaniefoo.me and follow her on Instagram @foofoofoo and Twitter @imontheradio
Find a great conversation about What My Bones Know on Maria Shriver’s Sunday Paper at this link
Additional resources
It’s OK That You’re Not OK: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn’t Understand is a book for grieving people, those who love them, and all those seeking to love themselves—and each other—better. (available in paperback, e-book, & audiobook)
For a collection of tools and coping skills related to grief and trauma, check out my illustrated guided journal, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. (available in paperback and for Kindle)
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Share the show on your social networks! Use #HereAfterPod so we can find you.
Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and resources, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What if you were just about to get divorced, but your partner gets sick? Like really sick? Rebecca Woolf was just about to leave an unhappy marriage when her husband got sick and died. What followed was a crash course in performative grief, and the dismantling of one life in order to build the next. In this epsiode, we cover love, sex, marriage, divorce, grief, shame, assumptions (both internal and external), and personal agency - it’s QUITE the conversation. Sensitivity note: this episode contains the F word, and references sex.
In this episode we cover:
- The conventions of marriage and grief that trap people in inauthentic versions of themselves
- How you can love someone AND be relieved they’re dead
- Why everyone has an opinion about how soon is too soon to date, have sex, or otherwise live your life after someone dies
- Grieving the time you lost living someone else’s life
- Building your own “house of hope,” according to your own desires
Notable quotes:
About our guest:
Rebecca Woolf has worked as a writer since her teens - it’s the way she understands both herself and the world. Her essays have appeared on Refinery29, Huffington Post, Parenting and more. She currently authors the bi-weekly column Sex &the Single Mom on Romper.com. Her latest book, ALL OF THIS: a memoir of death and desire, hits the shelves this August, 2022.
Find her on IG @rebeccawooolf (with three o’s) and at Rebeccawoolf.com
Additional resources
It can be hard to find information about grieving the loss of a complicated relationship (an abusive parent, or an estranged partner, for example). Check out this post on grieving people you didn’t always like.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Talking about difficult things gets easier with practice, and that’s why we’re here. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
“I’m for survivors surviving.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene
Nelba Márquez-Greene is a marriage and family therapist, and she’s an advocate for survivors of tragedy. What her offical bio doesn’t say is that her child was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary.
Each time there’s a new act of public gun violence, the media erupts with sound bites and headlines: survivors of past acts of violence tell us what the newest survivors are thinking and feeling. Not only do those interviews come at a cost, they don’t tell the whole story of what it’s like to live on after people you love have been killed by gunfire.
On this week’s show, Nelba and I discuss what it’s like to live such a public grief, and what it means to find joy - and hope - in an often violent world.
In this episode we cover:
- Supporting each other: the difference between an “inside the house” friend and an “on the porch” friend.
- Why no single form of advocacy for survivors is right for all survivors
- What’s missing from our ideas about “resilience”
- Where your money goes when you donate funds in the wake of a tragedy
- The importance of telling your own story in the ways you want to tell it (no matter who demands a soundbite)
- What to do when the next act of gun violence happens
Click here for the episode webpage
Notable quotes:
-
“My son was eight when his sister was murdered. He has every reason to not hope. In this country, boys who look like him are murdered with impunity more often than we report. And my son still has hope. And that gives me great hope when I can't find it.” - Nelba Márquez-Greene
-
“What’s the aim of a media outlet, or a news outlet, when they tell a specific (often traumatic) story? Like, yes, they want clicks & advertising, but they need emotional impact to get those clicks. Do you know what has emotional impact? The f*cking truth.” - Megan Devine
About our guest: Nelba Márquez-Greene is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in grief, loss, trauma and their impact on individuals and systems.She founded the CTAMFT (Connecticut Association for Marriage and Family Therapy) Diversity Committee and served on the CTAMFT Board of Directors.
In 2018, she was profiled as one of “100 Women of Color” and a YWCA (CT) Women’s Leadership Award recipient. She was featured in People Magazine’s October 2019 issue as one of Ten Women Changing the World and also recognized by Chelsea Clinton and Hillary Clinton in their Book of Gutsy Women.
Nelba has testified and advocated at the state and federal levels on many different mental health initiatives, hosted TEDx talks, and is a nationally sought after speaker. In the many years that have followed, stints in advocacy, public policy, community care, etc. have affirmed her core belief that in order to change the world we must take care of people. First - that grief, trauma and loss must be allowed in the room. Second - that tools, language, skills, resources and acceptance should be available to live a full, grieving life.
Find her at thisgrievinglife.com
Follow her on Instagram and Facebook @anagraceproject
Follow her on Twitter at @Nelba_MG and @anagraceproject
Additional resources
There are many organizations fighting to end gun violence. Here are just a few:
Moms Demand Action, Change the Ref, and Brady United. As Nelba suggested, if you want to support survivors of gun violence, find ways to support survivors in underserved communities, especially if their tragedy didn’t make the national news.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
There’s a lot going on lately - which is a massive understatement. In our personal lives and as a wider community - everything is a lot. It’s a really human thing to hope things will get better (even when you’re not sure how they possibly could). In this season of Here After, we’re going to find out if there’s any hope for us - like real, functional, tangible hope - in conversations with interesting people about difficult things.
In this episode we cover:
- Why season two took so long to arrive
- How to talk about the pain of the world without collapsing into despair or pretending everything is fine
- Real world hope versus “vending machine” hope
- What to expect in the season ahead
Click here for the episode webpage
Notable quotes:
“I want my hope back. And it has to be a real hope, not some airy, useless hope. It has to be functional. It has to be LOGICAL. It has to be real, and rooted in actual reality. I think we only get that kind of hope if we’re willing to tell the whole truth about how hard it is to be here sometimes.” - Megan Devine
About our guest:
Megan Devine is the host of Here After, and author of the best selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Her writings on re-humanizing grief can be found in publications such as Psychology Today, The New York Times, Harvard Business review, and The Washington Post. She serves as a grief expert for major media outlets including NPR, iHeartRadio, and the PBS documentary, Speaking Grief.
Additional resources
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
Follow the show on TikTok @hereafterpod
Have a question, comment, or a topic you’d like us to cover? call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, & TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Season two begins Monday August 29th, with all new shows and amazing guests. Follow now so you don’t miss an episode!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Wait, isn't palliative care something hospice does before somebody dies? Well, yes, but that’s just part of the story: palliative care covers a whole lot of health conditions, even temporary medical health setbacks. Palliative care is like symptom relief for the emotional challenges of being alive. Doesn't that sound really interesting? Find out what it is, and why it applies to YOU in this week’s episode.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- What is palliative care and why should anyone outside of hospice care?
- Getting your colleagues to care about the emotional pain of their patients
- Dr. Red’s love letter / shout-out to nurses
- Why a skilled surgeon also needs to be a compassionate human being
- How to keep your personal losses out of your workplace (sort of)
- Why Megan hopes you’ll start seeing the whole world through a palliative care lens
Notable quotes:
“There’s no way I could have come back to this job without being under the care of an amazing trauma informed therapist. You have to do your work or there's no way you're going to avoid bringing all of your stuff back to the job. My partner's death definitely informs who I am personally and professionally, but it cannot be all about me in the room.” - Dr. Red Hoffman on the personal/professional gray area
About our guest:
Dr. Red Hoffman is a board certified trauma surgeon trained in surgical care and hospice and palliative medicine. She's one of the leading voices advocating for palliative medicine across all departments and subspecialties in medicine. Follow her on Twitter @RedMDND
Questions to Carry with you:
Where are your palliative care people? Go on an expedition to find out more!
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Amy Brown did with Lesly Simon! We hope you enjoy it!
Amy’s guest today is a dear friend from the music business: Lesly Simon! We are so thankful to have Lesly on sharing her breast cancer journey and the motto she adopted for herself the day her world changed: "This is a wonderful day. I've never seen this one before." - Maya Angelou
Lesly also spoke candidly about what it's like working for Garth Brooks & Trisha Yearwood and ended the chat doing '4 Things Gratitude' with Amy. We love Lesly's spirit and we hope by listening to her story it will: encourage us all to be proactive with our health, do self-exams, and life to the fullest each day.
Visit BobbyBones.com to see the LIMITED EDITION #PIMPINJOY line to help build a hero a home, or you can go to TheShopForward.com/pimpinjoy!
Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode from The Truthiest Life, hosted by Lisa Hayim! We hope you enjoy it!
Lisa sits down with @kait.hurley, founder of Move + Meditate, the app that fuses together movement with stillness.
They discuss:
- Kait’s intimate story of grief + the effect on her physical + emotional body
- Collective Grief: the power of knowing others have been through what you have
- Finding “micro-moments” of stillness
- Why it’s okay to run from yourself for a period of time
- The Inner Critic: why we’re approaching it the wrong way
Move + Meditate: Try the free 14 day trial here (https://moveandmeditate.com/)
Sign up for weekly podcast emails! www.truthiestlife.com/emailme
Instagram: @kait.hurley
The Truthiest Life on Instagram: @thetruthiestlife
Host: @Lisahayim
To support TTL, subscribe, follow, or share episodes with family and friends who could benefit!
If you’re loving TTL, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-truthiest-life/id1535516122?uo=2
Guest submissions, please fill out this form: https://thewellnecessities.typeform.com/to/pODTLasN
Edited by Houston Tilley
Intro jingle by Alyssa Chase aka @findyoursails
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Kat Defatta did all about addiction! We hope you enjoy it!
This week Kat dives into what makes someone an "addict" & it's probably not what you think. If you are someone who has struggled with or is close to someone who has struggled with addiction this is going to be an important conversation to listen to. Warning: Some stuff may come up when listening to this so please make sure you are in a place where you feel safe before diving in.
Follow Kat on Instagram: @Kat.Defatta
Follow the podcast Instagram: @YouNeedTherapyPodcast
Have a question, concern, guest idea, something else? Reach Kat at: Kathryn@youneedtherapyodcast.com
Heard about Three Cords Therapy but don’t know what it is? Click here!
Produced by: @HoustonTilley
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Kat Defatta did with Amy Brown! We hope you enjoy it!
FINALLY! Amy Brown (@radioamy) joins Kat (@kat.defatta) for the first time on You Need Therapy! You may know Amy as the cohost of The Bobby Bones Show, creator of Pimpin' Joy, host of 4 Things with Amy Brown, or cohost of Outweigh- Kat knows Amy as one of the most genuine humans around. Together, Kat and Amy talk about what grief is and how it has shown up in thier own lives. They talk about anticipatory grief, comparative grief, the stages of grief, and finding meaning in their grief. They kind of cover it all. Grief is something that every human being will experience more than one time during their lives, yet it is also something many of us avoid. Join in on this conversation to hear some honesty about what it's like to get honest and present with it.
Follow Kat on Instagram: @Kat.Defatta
Follow the podcast Instagram: @YouNeedTherapyPodcast
Have a question, concern, guest idea, something else? Reach Kat at: Kathryn@youneedtherapyodcast.com
Heard about Three Cords Therapy but don’t know what it is? Click here!
Produced by: @HoustonTilley
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Amy Brown did with singer/song-writer Walker Hayes and his wife, Laney! We hope you enjoy it!
Singer/song-writer, Walker Hayes (who wrote our theme song! + the #PIMPINJOY song 'Joy Like Judy') and his wife Laney join Amy for all 4 things this episode. You might laugh. You might cry. The parents of 6 kids let us in on a lot and we are so thankful that they took the time to share it all. FIRST THING: Amy is obsessed with Walker's song “Don’t Let Her”, which was written about Laney. Every girl would love for a guy to write her a song like this. Its genius. Sorta sad. But genius. And very sweet. A must listen!!! SECOND THING: Blessing others is fun. Walker & Laney have been on the receiving end, but now they are on the giving ned. They are paying it forward with their "Be a Craig Fund" that was inspired by their friend (named Craig) that blessed them with a van for their big family at a time when they were financially strapped and they didn't have a car with enough seatbelts for everyone. "Be a Craig Fund" now allows them to pass the blessing of a new car on to other people that need a little help. THIRD THING: Walker & Laney open up about the heartbreaking journey of losing their daughter Oakleigh during birth. They share about how they are getting through the grief process in hopes that it can be helpful to others who may be going through something similar. FOURTH THING: “Life ain’t always pretty, but hey its pretty beautiful thing!” Through the good and the bad...Walker & Laney practice gratitude...so they each share 4 things they are thankful for.
Be sure to check out WalkerHayes.com for his music, more information on the Be A Craig Fund, as well as the awesome merch mentioned in this episode.
Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including an episode Amy Brown did with Kimberly Schlapman from the band Little Big Town. We hope you enjoy it!
This week Amy has Kimberly Schlapman (@ohgussie) from Little Big Town on for all 4 Things! FIRST THING: This year has been pretty hard, so Amy and Kimberly talk about grief...offering hope to those in the thick of it...that you can make it to the other side. Kimberly understands grief...as she suddenly lost her first husband and had fertility struggles for years. SECOND THING: Kimberly shared what wellness is for her...mind, body, and spirit. THIRD THING: We all have our go to comfort food or recipe. Kimberly talks about the cookies she made Amy, and her favorite meal that she makes for the ones she loves! You can find Kimberly’s recipe on Amy’s blog at RadioAmy.com! FOURTH THING: Kimberly tells us 4 Things she’s grateful for...when guests practice gratitude either us...it’s always a great way to get to know them better!
Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including another episode Amy Brown did with Megan. We hope you enjoy it!
Best-selling author & psychotherapist, Megan Devine, is back on to discuss grief during the holidays with Amy. We are so thankful for Megan’s wisdom and couldn’t be more excited about her podcast being an awesome resource for all people…but especially doctors, nurses, therapists and other helpers as they try to figure out how to show up - for themselves, and for others.
Best places to find more about Amy: RadioAmy.com + @RadioAmy
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hi, Here After with Megan Devine fans! This week we're including the episode Amy Brown did with Megan. We hope you enjoy it!
Grief counselor, psychotherapist, writer, grief advocate & communication expert, Megan Devine {@refugeingrief}, is on for all 4 things today! Megan is dedicated to helping people live through things they never thought they’d have to face. In 2009, she watched her partner, Matt, drown. FIRST THING: Megan shares her experience with grief and how it changed her life & relationships with others! Megan wants people to know it’s okay that you’re not okay and how to best meet grief & loss in a society that doesn’t understand. SECOND THING: Journaling through grief with Megan’s latest book: “How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.” THIRD THING: Megan debunks the culturally prescribed goal of returning to a normal, “happy” life, replacing it with a far healthier middle path, one that invites us to build a life alongside grief rather than seeking to overcome it. FOURTH THING: Megan shares with us 4 things she is grateful for. She also shared with us that gratitude is a companion to grief...not something you can do to get rid of any grief.
Link to “It’s Okay That You’re Not Okay: Meeting Grief and Loss in a Society that Doesn’t Understand”:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1622039076?ref=exp_radioamy_dp_vv_d
Link to “How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed” (new grief journal):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1683643704?ref=exp_radioamy_dp_vv_d
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
You know what makes the scary stuff easier to talk about? Making it fun. This week, my fellow “fun and scary” psychotherapist, Kat DeFatta, joins us to talk about body image, disordered eating, and how to help a friend facing a tough diagnosis. Sounds scary, but we had a lot of fun making this show. Come listen.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Why brand new psychotherapist Kat DeFatta said she’d “never work with grief” (spoiler: she knows better now)
- How to support a friend going through a health crisis when you’re concerned about potential disordered eating
- How much exercise is “too much exercise” when you’re dealing with a tough life experience
- Why grief is always in the room, no matter what your clients or patients present with
Notable quote:
“The question here isn't, "Why the addiction?" It's, "Where is some unmet need causing you pain?" The question isn't, "Why do you have a negative body image?" The question is, "Where are you hurting?" - Kat DeFatta
Guest Bio:
Psychotherapist Kathryn DeFatta is the host of the You Need Therapy Podcast, where she brings the kind of rare, meaningful conversations of the therapy office out into the world. Find her at www.YouNeedTherapyPodcast.com
Questions to Carry with you:
- Making conversation with your body: how exactly do we do that?
Resources:
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation. Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.
In this episode we cover:
- where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
- whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to netflix: HMU!)
- what to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
- and much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently.
Questions to Carry with you:
- rooting out the ways the stages of grief live in your head (it’s not as uncomfortable as it sounds!)
Extra resources: I’ve written a lot about the stages of grief. Check out this article, this instagram post, and for more of my feelings about the Starling, click here. Be sure to pick up It’s OK that You’re Not OK wherever you get your books, too - there’s a lot about the stages in there (including the reasons why graduate programs still teach this outdated model).
For more help navigating grief in the workplace, check out Alica Forneret, Lantern, and Grief Coach. I provide corporate consulting on grief related comms, too. Get in touch via megandevine.co Disclosure: these aren’t paid placements - I’ve worked with all these folks and I super dig them. Go check them (and me!) out.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
Notable quotes:
Boundaries are essentially “need negotiation” between humans. - Megan
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Starting over in a new place with new friends
- Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
- The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!)
- Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary
Guest Bio:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com.
Questions to Carry with you:
Discovering your existing boundaries in disguise! Plus communicating one new boundary. You’ve got this.
Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
- Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family?
- Why relationships based on conscious choice are so important
- How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
- The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success
Guest Bio:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com.
Questions to Carry with you:
- Check back next week for part two of this special episode on boundaries to get your Questions to Carry With You
Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
It’s no secret that healthcare professionals and caregivers of all kinds are stretched beyond their limits. We can’t look to healthcare systems themselves to give us the care and attention we need, so where CAN we go for support (and answers)? Don’t miss this week’s episode with guests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- why it’s important to look beyond the identified patient to the invisible web of caregivers
- the realities of caregiver burnout and stress
- the one practice you can do even - and especially - when you have no time to care for yourself
- do you stay or do you go? Making decisions for yourself inside this healthcare system catastrophe
Guest info and resources:
Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care — a non-profit organization that focuses on the teaching of Zen and Buddhist practice with the goal to make them more accessible to people all around the world. His passion lies in bereavement counseling and advocating for change in the way our healthcare institutions work with the dying. Find Chodo and the NYZC @newyorkzencenter on IG, and online at zencare.org
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and Certified Chaplaincy Educator. Koshin is a world-renowned thought leader in contemplative care. He is the author of Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up and the co-editor of Awake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of Life Care. His work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning, Tricycle among other publications. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison
If you work in healthcare, I very strongly recommend you check out New York Zen Center’s Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. Registrations for the 2022-2023 fellowship are open now.
To hear one of my favorite passages of all time, read by Chodo Robert Campbell, check out the first video at this link. The whole video is a lovely teaching from the founders of the Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
All of the Zen Center’s offerings, from books to support groups to ongoing educational opportunities can be found at zencare.org.
Questions to Carry with you:
- special bonus questions and meditations from our guests! I’ll be back next week with my own QtCWY, but don’t miss this edition!
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
You ever feel like there’s not enough love and support to go around? Like, there’s a severe shortage of compassion in the world, both for you and well, everyone? Me too, friends. This episode is basically my TED talk, if I had one, on how we create that support-filled world we all want (and deserve). It’s my personal favorite episode of season one.
In this episode we cover:
- Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
- Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them?
- How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same
- The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it)
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Notable quote:
“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love.” - Megan Devine
Questions to Carry with you:
- Fun ideas to help you seed love and compassion in the world, plus the one habit to break and re-make
Resources:
Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love filled world we all want: Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters
Terminology update: in this episode, I use the term “gender fluid,” but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.
The “is there love available here?” question comes from Mark Silver.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This week on the show, we're talking about something that pretty much everyone can relate to: wonky interpersonal relationships. Even in the best of times, human relationships can be tricky. Honestly, it's a wonder we create the social bonds we do considering how many things get in the way of a good connection. Tune in to find out how to help nice people get better at helping you, and how to step out of endless arguments that aren’t going anywhere. Don’t miss it!
In this episode we cover:
- why it’s so hard to describe your personal experience so other people get it
- how to overcome that “crisis of translation” (including a shout out to one of my all-time favorite movies, Powder - in which I misremember who was actually in that movie)
- the one communication tool that helps make interpersonal communication a whole lot easier (it’s a useful trick - promise!)
- how to enforce your boundaries without getting into endless arguments with people who just won’t listen
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: in the show, I say that Cher starred in the movie, Powder. Cher is not in the 1995 movie, Powder - I had a memory glitch. Still a great movie though.
Questions to Carry with you:
- playful, low stakes ways to practice the communication tools we talked about in this week’s show. Give it a go!
Resources:
For ideas on how to help a grieving partner, check out this article in GQ magazine . Lots of stuff in the article applies to the ways you might support anyone you care about (not just a partner)
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Our early childhood experiences of grief - and how our family systems dealt with loss - have a huge impact on our adult behaviors and relationships. This week, author Allyson Dinneen (Notes from Your Therapist) joins me as we discuss generational grief stories. We also have the first of many conversations addressing your number one most asked question: how does a grieving therapist (or another healthcare provider) go back to work?
About this week’s guest:
Allyson Dinneen is a marriage and family therapist and mental health counselor is the author of Notes From Your Therapist, a book based on her Instagram account of the same name, where she shares her reflections on emotions, relationships, grief, and life. Allyson’s work has been featured in Huffington Post, Forbes, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, and more. She lives in the Berkshires, Massachusetts and works in private practice.
Questions to Carry with you:
Exploring the risks and rewards of telling the truth.
References:
Megan and Allyson discuss a question from a previous episode that aired on January 3rd. Click HERE for that episode!
Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 20! We made it to the end of season one! This week, a conversation with co-producer Tanya Juhasz on our favorite moments of season one, and why it’s so hard to get people to listen to a show about difficult things - like grief. Bonus: we discuss how grief gets passed down in family systems, and how grown ups can give their kids what they wished they’d had for themselves.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Megan’s dad coming in with some real-life wisdom about the grief inherent in everyday life
- Intergenerational grief (aka: how grief gets passed down)
- Why so many people self-select out when they hear the word “grief”
- Megan’s professional crushes, and the show Tanya wants the whole world to hear
- How some of this season’s Questions to Carry With You have changed peoples lives
- What to expect while we’re on break between seasons (deep cuts and favorite shows!)
- Where we go from here: what’s coming up in season two
Questions to Carry with you:
About that “small g” griefcase….
Additional resources
Be sure to listen to the whole back catalog of episodes - there are so many good episodes in season one!
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Wait, isn't palliative care something hospice does before somebody dies? Well, yes, but that’s just part of the story: palliative care covers a whole lot of health conditions, even temporary medical health setbacks. Palliative care is like symptom relief for the emotional challenges of being alive. Doesn't that sound really interesting? Find out what it is, and why it applies to YOU in this week’s episode.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- What is palliative care and why should anyone outside of hospice care?
- Getting your colleagues to care about the emotional pain of their patients
- Dr. Red’s love letter / shout-out to nurses
- Why a skilled surgeon also needs to be a compassionate human being
- How to keep your personal losses out of your workplace (sort of)
- Why Megan hopes you’ll start seeing the whole world through a palliative care lens
Notable quotes:
“There’s no way I could have come back to this job without being under the care of an amazing trauma informed therapist. You have to do your work or there's no way you're going to avoid bringing all of your stuff back to the job. My partner's death definitely informs who I am personally and professionally, but it cannot be all about me in the room.” - Dr. Red Hoffman on the personal/professional gray area
About our guest:
Dr. Red Hoffman is a board certified trauma surgeon trained in surgical care and hospice and palliative medicine. She's one of the leading voices advocating for palliative medicine across all departments and subspecialties in medicine. Follow her on Twitter @RedMDND
Questions to Carry with you:
Where are your palliative care people? Go on an expedition to find out more!
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
If you work in an industry where loss is all around you, do you ever get used to it? Should you get used to it? Is there any way TO get used to it? With questions from a fitness instructor that lead us into discussions about emotions and boundaries and the risks of being human in the workplace - if you’ve ever wondered if you should be better at turning off the pain around you, this one’s for you.
PS: if you’ve got friends or family working in tough professions (including the fitness industry!), be sure to tune in for an inside look at what it’s like to work in a loss-filled job.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Emotional numbness on the job: if you see loss all the time, shouldn’t you be used to it by now?
- Why shaming your colleagues for NOT being numb to loss is maybe not the best way to build community
- How working in the fitness industry actually exposes you to a lot of loss
- Standard responses for emotional-relational judgment, aka: one liners to shut down the haters
- Excellent workplace boundaries: what to do when your clients lives affect you & you need to both keep it together and show your compassion
Questions to Carry with you:
A sneakily simple-seeming reflection question about emotions in the workplace
Additional resources
Does your workplace need help dealing with loss? If humans are part of the workforce, then grief is ALSO part of your workforce. Skillfully navigating workplace grief can be daunting. Megan can help! Visit megandevine.co and drop us a note. From employees returning from bereavement leave to on-the-job grief and loss, we can help you figure out how to communicate, advocate, and still get work done that needs to be done.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The division of labor inside a family system is never equal, is it. What happens when grief hits the main caregiver, and they just can’t keep giving? This week on the show, we discuss gender roles, invisible labor, and the redistribution of the workload inside families, with special guests Eve Rodsky and Dr. Aditi Nerurkar of the Timeout: A Fair Play podcast.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- The long history of invisible labor, and what that means for women right now
- How systems, boundaries, and communication can help redistribute the workload inside families
- Why women’s time is spent like sand, and men’s time is valued like diamonds
- How grief intensifies the workload on the identified “I keep this family rolling” person
Guest Bios:
Eve Rodsky is a New York Times bestselling author and the creator of Fair Play: a step-by-step approach that helps partners rebalance their domestic workload. Find her at everodsky.com. Special note for therapists and other healthcare workers: Eve’s Fair Play system can be adapted to working with your clients. Follow the Fair Play link above for details.
Dr. Aditi Nerurkar is an internal medicine physician, public health expert, and medical correspondent with an expertise in stress, resilience, and mental health. Find her at draditi.com
Together, Eve and Aditi host the new show, Timeout: A Fair Play Podcast, which maps the ways caregivers can reclaim their time inside families and other systems that often invalidate women's contribution. Find Timeout wherever you get your podcasts.
Questions to Carry with you:
- Mapping your own workload (so you can clearly see where you need help!)
Resources:
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
PROLONGED GRIEF DISORDER! It’s everywhere - social media, The New York Times, The Washington Post… it’s the hot new medical condition everyone’s talking about. But why is everyone so mad about it?
This week on the show, an overview of this hotly contested “new” human disorder, and what it means for the average person, for healthcare providers, and honestly - for the whole world. This is one medical diagnosis that affects everyone.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Why anyone should care what the APA thinks about grief
- The actual diagnostic criteria for prolonged grief disorder (translated from psych-jargon into the way real people speak)
- Access to care + funding for research: two of the main reasons people think this diagnosis could be helpful (and why it isn’t)
- The real world impact of the DSM: doubling down on shame and misunderstanding
- Why launching new rules about how long it’s ok to grieve is more than a bit problematic while we’re still in the middle of a mass death and mass disabling event (aka the pandemic)
- One surprise reason this diagnosis could be seen as a good thing
Click here for the episode webpage
Notable quotes:
“Grief makes you less productive, and what we value above all else is productivity.” - Megan Devine
Questions to Carry with you:
Read up on the unfolding public conversation about prolonged grief disorder - how do you feel about it? Let us know! Call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Additional resources
For an interview with both Megan and the author of the NYT article, Ellen Barry, on WGBH TV Boston, click here.
To read Megan’s more detailed response to the NYT article, including tweet-by-tweet takedowns of most of the major “pro disorder” points, check out the original Twitter thread, and the extended thread. Versions of these threads are also on the blog.
Want to read even more about our culture’s deep avoidance of human emotion, and all the ways that messes with day to day life? Maybe more important, want to know what’s actually normal inside grief? Check out Megan’s best-selling book, It’s OK that You’re Not OK, and follow @refugeingrief on IG/FB/TW
We recommend you check out the Perfectly Normal campaign, serving up just the validation you need when you’re feeling like the only person in the world doing that “weird” thing you do.
Therapist, clinician, or other healthcare provider? Be sure to check out upcoming trainings that address PGD and re-humanizing grief. Follow Megan Devine on LinkedIn, too.
Other articles on prolonged grief disorder include Medicalizing Grief May Threaten Our Ability to Mourn
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening? This week, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values their human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in to find out.
*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world!
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?
- How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work
- Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe
- Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!)
Notable quotes:
“The mental health system is broken. You can’t fix it by breaking yourself.” - Dr. Jessi Gold.
“Let's borrow from the c-suite, let’s borrow tactics from the upper levels of the industry - they do have a balance sheet at the end of the day. They need to know there’s economic benefit to valuing peoples’ humanity and their limits. Denying people their humanity costs us.” - Megan Devine
Guest Bio:
Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at www.Dr.JessiGold.com and on TW @drjessigold
Questions to Carry with you:
- Tell yourself the truth about one thing. Why is that important? Listen to the episode to find out.
Resources:
For resources related to healthcare worker mental health, check out:
- physician’s support line on social @shrinkrapping
- American Foundation for Suicide Prevention on social @afspnational
- provider resource hub developed by @theNAMedicine)
- Emotional PPE
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for consulting, resources, and upcoming trainings
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
Notable quotes:
Boundaries are essentially “need negotiation” between humans. - Megan
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Starting over in a new place with new friends
- Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
- The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!)
- Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary
Guest Bio:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com.
Questions to Carry with you:
Discovering your existing boundaries in disguise! Plus communicating one new boundary. You’ve got this.
Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. This week, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
- Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family?
- Why relationships based on conscious choice are so important
- How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
- The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success
Guest Bio:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. You might know her from her popular instagram channel, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at https://dralexandrasolomon.com.
Questions to Carry with you:
- Check back next week for part two of this special episode on boundaries to get your Questions to Carry With You
Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at https://dralexandrasolomon.com
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Your typical small talk is LOADED with inappropriate questions. Think about it: you ask a person you just met whether they’re married or if they have kids. If they’re new in town, you ask them why they moved here. The answers to those questions are rarely simple, and they sometimes lead to awkward, intimate conversations - right there, next to the bean dip.
This week, we explore keeping secrets - in small talk, in the workplace, in families, and out in the wider world with listener questions about outing someone’s sexuality after their death, and whether you should tell the truth or preserve your privacy when someone asks how many kids you have.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- The difference between “secret” and “private”
- Whether you should out someone’s gender or sexuality after their death
- Why it’s ok to only tell part of the story (or none of it) when someone asks a personal question based on your public information
- Where to go for help if you feel like you can’t tell the people around you what you’re going through
- The real problem with small talk
Questions to Carry with you:
- Building a small talk library of questions that don’t suck: a group project
Resources:
Free Mom Hugs is the best place I know if you’re part of the LGBTQIA+ community and feel like no one’s on your side. You might also check with the Trevor Project, GLAAD, or google LGBTQIA+ resources in your area and online.
That scene I reference from Schitt’s Creek is in season five, episode 11 (Meet the Parents). Check it out on Netflix.
Wish you could connect with grieving people who truly, truly get how complicated death and grief can be? The next session of the Writing Your Grief course and community is open for registration now. Your loss is unique, and you are three thousand percent definitely not alone.
Clinician or medical provider? Be sure to visit megandevine.co to learn about trainings and resources to help your clients navigate these issues.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
You know what makes the scary stuff easier to talk about? Making it fun. This week, my fellow “fun and scary” psychotherapist, Kat DeFatta, joins us to talk about body image, disordered eating, and how to help a friend facing a tough diagnosis. Sounds scary, but we had a lot of fun making this show. Come listen.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- Why brand new psychotherapist Kat DeFatta said she’d “never work with grief” (spoiler: she knows better now)
- How to support a friend going through a health crisis when you’re concerned about potential disordered eating
- How much exercise is “too much exercise” when you’re dealing with a tough life experience
- Why grief is always in the room, no matter what your clients or patients present with
Notable quote:
“The question here isn't, "Why the addiction?" It's, "Where is some unmet need causing you pain?" The question isn't, "Why do you have a negative body image?" The question is, "Where are you hurting?" - Kat DeFatta
Guest Bio:
Psychotherapist Kathryn DeFatta is the host of the You Need Therapy Podcast, where she brings the kind of rare, meaningful conversations of the therapy office out into the world. Find her at www.YouNeedTherapyPodcast.com
Questions to Carry with you:
- Making conversation with your body: how exactly do we do that?
Resources:
Need a place to tell the whole truth about what you’re going through? Check out the Writing Your Grief course and community, from Megan Devine. Registration for the next session is open now.
Looking for more training as you navigate grief on the job and in your life? Check out megandevine.co for upcoming workshops
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Since we’ve already got February 14th assigned as a holiday, I’d like to claim Valentine’s Day not for romance, but for all love. Let’s make it a real sacred occasion - one that helps create a world where there’s more than enough love and support to go around. This episode is basically what I’d give for my TED talk, if I had one. Don’t miss it.
Grief is part of love, so of course we’re talking about grief today. We navigate some clinical concerns as they relate to love, and we throw in a little bit of social justice here too, because what is justice but love in action. tada! We've got an episode suitable for february 14th, and we won’t even need conversation hearts to do it.
In this episode we cover:
- Why comparing divorce to death, or pet loss to child loss, is a Very. Bad. Idea. (usually)
- Is it ok to be sad about a musician or actor’s death, even if you never met them?
- How to treat compassion like an abundant resource AND have good boundaries all at the same
- Ways to navigate the shortage of compassion in your clients, patients, friends, or yourself
- The path to the love-filled, support-rich world we all want (it’s not easy, but it’s worth it)
Notable quote:
“It sounds pretty woo but compassion really is an expandable resource. Practicing inclusion and validation means people feel heard, and heard people hear people, which means the whole culture starts to change from one of vindictive “how dare you feel that way!” to at worst, a neutral, impartial kindness, and at best - well, being generous like this creates a world built and sustained by love. Happy Valentine’s Day.” - Megan Devine
Questions to Carry with you:
- Fun ideas to help you seed love and compassion in the world, plus the one habit to break and re-make
Resources:
Love in action! Check out this exceptionally non-extensive list of people to learn from as we grow the love filled world we all want: Rachel Cargle, Alok Menon, Alice Wong, Free Mom Hugs, Farmer Veteran Coalition, Natalie Weaver, & Resting Waters
Terminology update: in this episode, I use the term “gender fluid,” but the term gender-expansive is more accurate.
The “is there love available here?” question comes from Mark Silver.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Want your questions answered on the show? To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Episode Description:
A bonus episode for Valentine’s week - the love story at the core of Here After and all of Megan’s work. This episode is unlike our normal weekly show. Tune in, and let us know if you’d like more occasional bonus episodes.
Resources:
This essay first appeared in very slightly different form on Modern Loss
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s bonus episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
It’s no secret that healthcare professionals and caregivers of all kinds are stretched beyond their limits. We can’t look to healthcare systems themselves to give us the care and attention we need, so where CAN we go for support (and answers)? Don’t miss this week’s episode with guests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- why it’s important to look beyond the identified patient to the invisible web of caregivers
- the realities of caregiver burnout and stress
- the one practice you can do even - and especially - when you have no time to care for yourself
- do you stay or do you go? Making decisions for yourself inside this healthcare system catastrophe
Guest info and resources:
Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care — a non-profit organization that focuses on the teaching of Zen and Buddhist practice with the goal to make them more accessible to people all around the world. His passion lies in bereavement counseling and advocating for change in the way our healthcare institutions work with the dying. Find Chodo and the NYZC @newyorkzencenter on IG, and online at zencare.org
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and Certified Chaplaincy Educator. Koshin is a world-renowned thought leader in contemplative care. He is the author of Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up and the co-editor of Awake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of Life Care. His work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning, Tricycle among other publications. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison
If you work in healthcare, I very strongly recommend you check out New York Zen Center’s Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. Registrations for the 2022-2023 fellowship are open now.
To hear one of my favorite passages of all time, read by Chodo Robert Campbell, check out the first video at this link. The whole video is a lovely teaching from the founders of the Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
All of the Zen Center’s offerings, from books to support groups to ongoing educational opportunities can be found at zencare.org.
Questions to Carry with you:
- special bonus questions and meditations from our guests! I’ll be back next week with my own QtCWY, but don’t miss this edition!
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
How do you go on after your most transformational experience - motherhood - turns into your worst nightmare? Emmy nominated journalist René Marsh discusses storytelling, pediatric cancer, and becoming an advocate for the cause that broke her heart.
“I wrote this in my journal: if I survive this, it's not because I found some great tool to survive it. It’s that I figured out how to position my stance to carry this load forever.” - René Marsh
In this episode we cover:
- how the experience of deep loss changes who you are as a storyteller - personally and professionally
- finding joy in advocacy, even though you wish you never had to be an advocate at all
- what CNN correspondent Rene Marsh wants other journalists to know about grief - on the job and off
- and listener questions on the benefits of journaling, plus managing personal emotions as an advocate
Guest bio:
Emmy nominated CNN correspondent, René Marsh, has been writing and telling stories for nearly two decades. Her journalism covers climate change and environmental justice, along with other heavy hitting modern issues.
Rene’s son, Blake, was diagnosed with brain cancer at only nine months old, and passed away in April of 2021 at the age of two. She’s an outspoken advocate for pediatric cancer awareness, hoping to help families just like hers get the support - and the research - they deserve.
To watch Rene’s interviews on grief and advocacy, click here.
To learn about Rene’s work to raise funding and awareness for pediatric cancer research, and to order her book, The Miracle Workers, visit renemarsh.com. Proceeds from the book go to fund pediatric cancer research.
Resources
Are you a journalist? Check out this guide to reporting on death.
Looking for a welcoming, inclusive community of writers? Registration is open now for the February session of Writing Your Grief
Learn more about Dr. Lonise Bias (mentioned in the episode) at the Bias Foundation
Questions to Carry with you:
- Emotionally devastating stories can leave you feeling helpless. This week - one action to take that helps combat that feeling of helplessness. Don’t miss it!
Get in touch!
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This week on the show, we're talking about something that pretty much everyone can relate to: wonky interpersonal relationships. Even in the best of times, human relationships can be tricky. Honestly, it's a wonder we create the social bonds we do considering how many things get in the way of a good connection. Tune in to find out how to help nice people get better at helping you, and how to step out of endless arguments that aren’t going anywhere. Don’t miss it!
In this episode we cover:
- why it’s so hard to describe your personal experience so other people get it
- how to overcome that “crisis of translation” (including a shout out to one of my all-time favorite movies, Powder - in which I misremember who was actually in that movie)
- the one communication tool that helps make interpersonal communication a whole lot easier (it’s a useful trick - promise!)
- how to enforce your boundaries without getting into endless arguments with people who just won’t listen
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: in the show, I say that Cher starred in the movie, Powder. Cher is not in the 1995 movie, Powder - I had a memory glitch. Still a great movie though.
Questions to Carry with you:
- playful, low stakes ways to practice the communication tools we talked about in this week’s show. Give it a go!
Resources:
For ideas on how to help a grieving partner, check out this article in GQ magazine . Lots of stuff in the article applies to the ways you might support anyone you care about (not just a partner)
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Everybody knows the stages of grief. Even if you didn’t go to grad school, I bet you can rattle them off. Thing is - those stages don’t help anyone: not the pros trying to support patients or clients, not the person trying to survive an impossible situation. Tune in for the inside scoop on the stages of grief and what we should be doing instead, with a special shout-out to the tv shows getting grief right.
In this episode we cover:
- where the stages of grief came from, and why their creator was Less Than Pleased with what happened next
- whether an “innocent” mention of the stages of grief really matters in a movie or tv show (shout out to netflix: HMU!)
- what to do if your boss asks you to support your co-workers through a death in the company
- and much more, because I have a lot to say on these stages, apparently.
Questions to Carry with you:
- rooting out the ways the stages of grief live in your head (it’s not as uncomfortable as it sounds!)
Extra resources: I’ve written a lot about the stages of grief. Check out this article, this instagram post, and for more of my feelings about the Starling, click here. Be sure to pick up It’s OK that You’re Not OK wherever you get your books, too - there’s a lot about the stages in there (including the reasons why graduate programs still teach this outdated model).
For more help navigating grief in the workplace, check out Alica Forneret, Lantern, and Grief Coach. I provide corporate consulting on grief related comms, too. Get in touch via megandevine.co Disclosure: these aren’t paid placements - I’ve worked with all these folks and I super dig them. Go check them (and me!) out.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Our early childhood experiences of grief - and how our family systems dealt with loss - have a huge impact on our adult behaviors and relationships. This week, author Allyson Dinneen (Notes from Your Therapist) joins me as we discuss generational grief stories. We also have the first of many conversations addressing your number one most asked question: how does a grieving therapist (or another healthcare provider) go back to work?
About this week’s guest:
Allyson Dinneen is a marriage and family therapist and mental health counselor is the author of Notes From Your Therapist, a book based on her Instagram account of the same name, where she shares her reflections on emotions, relationships, grief, and life. Allyson’s work has been featured in Huffington Post, Forbes, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, and more. She lives in the Berkshires, Massachusetts and works in private practice.
Questions to Carry with you:
Exploring the risks and rewards of telling the truth
References:
Megan and Allyson discuss a question from a previous episode that aired on January 3rd. Click HERE for that episode!
Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The holidays are over - you made it. By the looks of our inbox, the season wasn’t easy. This week, a holiday debrief, including bad behavior from therapists, why religion is not the answer to grief, and some true facts about dating after loss.
In this episode we cover:
- how to say “I can’t work with you” without accidentally shaming your patients or clients
- why “but your (dead relative) is all around you, just in a new form!” maybe isn’t the most supportive thing to say
- questions to ask yourself when faced with a surprise romantic breakup (and what that has to do with grief)
- and as always - fun talk about boundaries.
Questions to Carry with you:
- Boundary practice!
- Still working on those resolutions? Be sure to listen to the two-part episode New Year, Same Grief (and the Math of Suffering) for help creating resolutions that feel a little more achievable than “overhaul my entire life”
Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The end of the year is always a flurry of resolutions and “next year will be even better!” sentiments. It’s kind of hard to look forward to the future with - all of everything - still going on. In this special two part episode, we face the new year together - with special guest, historian, author, and queen of awkward conversations, Kate Bowler.
In part two of this episode:
- Finding motivation to set goals for yourself
- The difference between transactional hope and functional hope
- What docs should tell patients about grief
About Kate:
Kate Bowler, PhD, is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason, Dr. Bowler stages a national conversation around why it’s so difficult to speak frankly about suffering through her popular podcast, Everything Happens. She has appeared on NPR, The TODAY Show, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and TIME Magazine. Her latest book, No Cure For Being Human), grapples with her diagnosis, her ambition, and her faith as she tries to come to terms with limitations in a culture that says anything is possible. Follow her @Katecbowler on all social Platforms.
Questions to Carry with you:
- As you work on your New Year’s resolutions, focus on how you want to feel, rather than what you want things to look like. Let us know how it goes!
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Is acceptance overrated? What happens when you have to face a new year without your person in it (or without the health you used to have!)? In this special two-part episode, we face the new year together - with special guest, historian, author, and queen of awkward conversations, Kate Bowler.
In part one of this episode:
- How do you have hope for the year to come when right now maybe isn’t so great?
- Acceptance, moving forward, and ferocious self-advocacy
- The Math of Suffering: this year, last year, and measuring love
- Why social bonds matter, and what happens when no one sees you
About Kate:
Kate Bowler, PhD, is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason, Dr. Bowler stages a national conversation around why it’s so difficult to speak frankly about suffering through her popular podcast, Everything Happens. She has appeared on NPR, The TODAY Show, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and TIME Magazine. Her latest book, No Cure For Being Human), grapples with her diagnosis, her ambition, and her faith as she tries to come to terms with limitations in a culture that says anything is possible. Follow her @Katecbowler on all social Platforms.
Questions to Carry with you:
- special show notes bonus question to carry with you: What’s your relationship with acceptance?
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The holiday season is sometimes joyful, sometimes stressful - and to be honest, it’s usually a mix of both. Between external pressures and family dynamics, we figure everyone can use some tips on making it through the season.
In this episode we cover:
- How to bring up your loved one’s absence when no one else will
- Making a good enough holiday for your family when you’re not in the holiday spirit
- Tips for navigating intrusive personal questions (like “when will you have kids?” or “don’t you think it’s time you moved on?”)
- and learn why consensus is a terrible holiday goal, but collaboration might just be the best thing possible
Questions to Carry with you:
What would a good holiday look like for you? What do you most need in this season? There are no wrong answers to these questions.
Communication skills practice: Tell someone one thing you'd like to do this holiday season that might not be traditional or that might bring up some feelings.
Find all this, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show in this episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling book- It’s Okay That You're Not Okay -at refugeingrief.com/book
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Setting the stage. Why do we need to talk about pain and grief and horrible things anyway? Who wants to talk about that? With everyone grieving something over the past few years, and healthcare workers pushed beyond their limits, we’ve got to talk about this stuff amongst ourselves - because the helpers? They need help too.
In this episode we cover:
- the mental health crisis inside the healthcare industry
- the one thing the pandemic has made everyone aware of (aside from indoor air quality)
- Some moderately deep grief-related history involving “keep calm and carry on”
- How the ways you talk about everyday annoyances can actually help change the world
- and why Mr Rogers has it all wrong about looking for the helpers
All of that, plus instructions for how to submit YOUR questions to be answered on a future show. Tune in, listen, review, subscribe, and share with everyone you know.
For more information, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
To submit your questions please use our toll-free number to leave a voicemail: (323) 643-3768
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Here After is a show that explores some of the hardest parts of being human: what to do when life goes horribly wrong. Each week, host Megan Devine tackles questions from doctors, nurses, therapists and other helpers as they try to figure out how to show up - for themselves, and for others - in the midst of deep grief. Sounds heavy, right? Well, it can be. It’s also got humor, validation, and tools you can use in your own life. But if you’re going to listen to a topic lots of people would rather avoid, you should probably know who your tour guide is. In this bonus mini episode - meet Megan.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.