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If you’ve been thinking, “I dislike my husband,” but you feel guilty about it because he’s supposedly improved himself lately, here’s what you need to know.

Why Disliking Your Husband May Signal Something DeeperHere’s the thing: if you dislike your husband, you’re not weird and you certainly haven’t done anything wrong. But I bet you’ve been asking yourself…

• Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying?
• Is this normal resentment?
• Am I too unforgiving?
• Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper?

In emotionally abusive relationships, there may be times when he apologizes or he may use language he learned in therapy to make it sound like he’s making progress. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of “Mr. Nice Guy.”

It’s Okay to Dislike Him Even if He’s Getting TherapyIf it’s unclear whether he’s emotionally abusive, or not, take thisfree emotional abuse test.

Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean you’re having a reaction to a person who no longer feels emotionally safe to be around.

This is exactly what we walk through in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave.

Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm.

BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive HusbandsFor women who choose to stay married wondering “can my husband change into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband.

Transcript: I Dislike My HusbandAnne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone.

So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome.

Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on.

Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, “I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,” conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time?

Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends.

Early “Green Flags” That Later Made Me Question EverythingCece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else.

Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this?

Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so…

Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her.

Cece: Right.

Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that.

Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside.

Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me.

Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag.

I Dislike My Husband, Does That Mean He’s Emotionally Abusive or That I’m Burnt Out?Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.”

I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.”

And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?”

“Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency.

Why It’s Okay To Dislike Your HusbandAnne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says will couples counseling work.

CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is.

And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins.

Experiencing Love Bombing & MirroringAnne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression.

But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it.

Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point.

Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not?

Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated.

When Things Changed After Our Wedding, I realized “I Dislike My Husband”Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it.

Anne: Not like, gently.

Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call.

So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.”

Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh.

Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents.

Anger Management Looked Like Change—But It Wasn’t Real ChangeWhere he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that.

And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes.

Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point.

And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point.

And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors.

Discovery Days, “Recovery Talk,” and Why I Dislike My Husband Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material.

Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed.

And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction.

But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort.

Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that?

I Dislike My Husband: Wondering What He’s Really Doing When I’m Not AroundCece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work. And I walked in on him and I was like, what the heck is going on?

He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am.

And in that moment, I remember thinking, Who did I even marry? Who is this man? I drove back to school in tears and was completely checked out the rest of the day. That was a turning point. I started realizing I didn’t actually know who my husband was when I wasn’t around.

That’s when the starting realizing, I don’t like my husband. And it kind of freaked me out.

Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors.

CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around.

Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it.

Cece: Yeah, that’s true.

I Dislike My Husband: Starting Marriage Counseling With False HopeAnne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why do I dislike my husband, why didn’t you just get out? Be like, I was trying to get help, but I went to a therapist, and the therapist told me to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your husband will change? What are you telling yourself?

Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on.

There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle.

But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage.

Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband ChangeCece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past.

Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons.

Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore.

That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive.

I Dislike My Husband: Why Emotional Safety Must Come Before Deciding If He’ll ChangeAnne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense.

Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die so that I could get out of this misery.” Thinking, I dislike my husband, and then immediately feeling guilty for even having that thought.

Good wives don’t feel that way. So I assumed I must be the problem.

Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say?

Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.”

https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VEAnne: Did she say, you are abused?

Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on.

And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change.

More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & PlanningCece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that.

There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him.

I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally and I’m like “I dislike my husband,” of course.

Anne: You were resisting.

Cece: Yeah.

Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross.

Changing Churches & Hoping Things Will ImproveCece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I dislike my husband and I started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time.

Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials.

Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules.

Waiting For Change When I Dislike My HusbandAnne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer.

Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost.

Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance.

Cece: Yeah, if I dislike my husband, maybe I can survive if I live my life largely separate from him. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff.

Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance.

And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out.

I Dislike My Husband: How Boundaries Protect Women and Children From Emotional AbuseCece: Yes, this was when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing.

It was like he would would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly.

Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you, because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out how to live with a husband you don’t trust.

Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy and It was a time of hope in my life.

It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life.

I Dislike My Husband: Another D-Day and the Numbness That FollowedCece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what.

So it was this new level of having to accept that I dislike my husband and it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM.

And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point.

Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening StoriesCece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story.

And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery.

Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change.

Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, I dislike my husband, but some of them might want to change.

Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish.

Cece: Right.

Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true.

Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTRCece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed.

Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah.

Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it.

This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either.

Anne: This is an addiction therapist?

Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest.

Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest.

Disclosure & AccountabilityCece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything.

We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing.

Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again.

Cece: That’s possible.

Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it?

CeCe: I don’t know.

Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change.

I Dislike My Husband: I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed AgainAnne: But instead, your husband won’t stop lying, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y

So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image.

Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg.

So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me.

Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay.

Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he relapsed. He did a drip disclosure. He told me part of the truth and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic. In that moment, the thought returned stronger than ever: I dislike my husband—not because I’m unforgiving, but because I’m exhausted from cycles that never truly end.

Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’sCece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself.

Anne: It sounded as if he could change.

Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, I dislike my husband. We’re not doing this. I kicked him out of our room and told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling.

I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.”

He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point.

Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him OutCece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I dislike my husband. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house.

My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor.

When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.”

Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t

Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change.

The Church’s Role Turns To BlameCece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously.

And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.”

I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you.

It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point.

Anne: What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma?

Cece: I was thinking I am all ears at this point.

Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The betrayal trauma support group near me was incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To SafetyAnne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward?

I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.”

I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage.

And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Letting Go of Hoping He Would Change and Finding Safe Support When I DisLike My HusbandCece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. By that point, I had already been quietly wrestling with the thought, I dislike my husband — and I felt ashamed of it. They are not trauma informed or giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well and I was just done at that point.

I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first.

But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it.

I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage.

My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him”Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in.

Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not.

Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still.

Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you.

Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day.

I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried.

Trying To Save Our Family & Mini StrokeCece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?”

I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church.

That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary.

After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier.

Contesting the Divorce & Legal BattlesCece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listening to helpful resources to combat the negative impact of thinking I dislike my husband, and meditating on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system.

And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow.

And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide.

So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all.

Custody Threats & Emotional ManipulationCece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do.

Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change.

Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?”

It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.”

My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules.

Birthday Drama With A Public ConfrontationCece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way.

Anne: We teach how to tell if your husband will change in my workshop.

Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there.

I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? Especially since infidelity is abusive. He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.”

I used to cry when he guilted me and said I was breaking up our family. I used to internalize it. But this time something shifted. I realized that the reason I was thinking, I dislike my husband, wasn’t because I had become unloving—it was because I was tired of being blamed for his choices.

Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries When I Dislike My HusbandCece: We got to Christmas. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. My mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me.

But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. I can just send my kids outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there that I dislike my husband.

I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people.

Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will.

Bravery & Strength: Thriving After AbuseCece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out.

Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself?

Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to.

Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change.

CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha.

Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today.

Cece: Thank you so much.

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Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation.

Here’s What To Do If You Wonder, Is My Husband Hiding Money? 1. Recognize The Signs Of Financial DeceptionIs your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you.

1. Do Your homework and keep good receordsIf you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on.

2. Don’t Talk To Your Husband About Your Suspicions Until…If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself.

To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation.

1. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Understand That Lying About Money Is A Form Of ControlIt’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you.

We have daily, online Group Sessions where women can talk about their suspicions and learn what to do to protect themselves. Check out the Group Session schedule. We’d love to see you in a session TODAY.

Transcript: Is My Husband Hiding Money?Anne: I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called Scam Goddess highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud.

She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me.

Anne: So you wrote your experience in your book, Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, Scam Goddess, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story?

Victoria Ellen: Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom.

Meeting Her Ex-HusbandVictoria Ellen: When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church.

My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife.

Anne: When did you start to notice if something felt off? And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?”

Victoria Ellen: Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it.

Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that.

Red Flags & Controlling Behavior EscalatesVictoria Ellen: And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately.

I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me.

But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream.

Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married.

Is My Husband Hiding Money? Marriage & Extreme ControlVictoria Ellen: Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere.

My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us.

We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him.

Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that intensive couple therapy will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.The Living Free workshop talks about what to do to get help.

Victoria Ellen: Absolutely.

Anne: And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe.

Challenges With The Justice SystemAnne: Did you discover any other abusive behavior?

Victoria Ellen: Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. And of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child.

And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it.

He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it.

Custody Battle & Court StrugglesVictoria Ellen: It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children.

They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser.

I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear.

Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else.

The Need For Justices To Be EducatedVictoria Ellen: And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old.

Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry.

Victoria Ellen: Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud.

Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it.

Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults.

Abuse By The Justice SystemAnne: Yeah that’s the thing about divorcing a narcissist they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming.

Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent.

Victoria Ellen: Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system.

Anne: Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?”

Victoria Ellen:My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, is my husband hiding money? Evidence showed he was.

Is My ex-Husband Hiding something? Finding Aliases & Gathering EvidenceVictoria Ellen: He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa.

Anne: Wow.

Victoria Ellen: So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true.

I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own.

My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination.

Is My Husband Hiding Money? Courtroom StrategiesVictoria Ellen: If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.”

I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was.

I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker.

You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable.

He’s Indicted On Federal ChargesVictoria Ellen: He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money.

Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds.

And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd.

And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him.

The Trial Victoria Ellen: Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation.

Anne: Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds.

Victoria Ellen: So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges.

The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes.

Is My Ex-Husband Hiding Money? SentencingVictoria Ellen: So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it.

Anne: Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded?

Victoria Ellen: Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable.

You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison.

Anne: Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved.

Victoria Ellen: It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it.

Differences Between Court SystemsVictoria Ellen: For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely.

Anne: Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody.

There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts?

Victoria Ellen: Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white.

And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos.

Is He Hiding Money? Fighting for the truth to be toldVictoria Ellen: If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes.

And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level.

Anne: They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?”

That’s why I put the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link. It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent?

Victoria-Ellen: Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy.

Advocating for Justice Reform TogetherAnne: I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even sensical in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail.

Anne: That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care.

Victoria Ellen: They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight.

Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Victoria Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.

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“Am I paranoid? Why do I feel like my husband is cheating on me?”

Laurie Hall, author of An Affair of the Mind, couldn’t prove her husband was cheating. But no matter how hard she tried, the feeling of dread wouldn’t go away. Laurie shares her powerful story.

If you feel dread about your husband, it would be that you’re experiencing one or more of the 19 types of emotional abuse. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.

Why Do I Feel Like My Husband Is Cheating? Am I Just Paranoid?There are behavioral patterns that can indicate your husband is cheating, including:

• Lying
• Rage
• Not knowing where is he or how he spends his time

However, it’s important to understand that for many women, including Laurie, there are NO signs of infidelity, at least for a time. Just a feeling that something is “off”.

So What Do I Do if I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating?Rather than exert emotional energy to find definitive proof, we suggest women enroll in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, which will help you determine your husband’s character step by step, without exposing you to more lies or manipulation.

Please seek support as you work through difficult feelings, including the dread that your husband is cheating on you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to talk through your situation, ask questions, and receive the validation and compassion that you deserve.

Transcript: Why Do I Feel Like My Husband is Cheating On Me?Anne: Today, I have Laurie Hall with me. She’s the author of An Affair of the Mind. She wrote the first book about addiction written from the perspective of the partner. And it broke ground in a world that saw the partner as codependent and just as sick, in her own way, as the addict, which we know isn’t true.

And Laurie knew wasn’t true, even then. Laurie refused to accept that view and advocated for partners. She said they were betrayed and traumatized, when they feel like their husband is cheating.

Laurie you talk about how prayer helped you discover your husband’s addiction. Can you talk about that?

Laurie: Yes, this is a great place to start the discussion of how this whole issue can lead to a spiritual crisis. Because I knew there were problems in my marriage, I didn’t know what I was dealing with.

My ex-husband grew up in the mission field. He had a White House security clearance when I met him. Everyone who knew him said, Oh, he’s a super nice, squeaky clean guy. So I really thought I was marrying a boy scout, but there was just this sense that something wasn’t right. And I kept trying to figure out what it was.

And I went to my church for help. Because as a young Christian woman, I wanted to know how to do marriage God’s way. They told me I needed to submit more, that I needed to support him more, that I needed to pray for him more and every remedy they gave me. They put me further and further under. At one point, I thought, well, they said you’re too strong. If you were not as strong, he would be stronger.

Turning To Scripture And PrayerLaurie: And I just kept thinking, well, wait a minute. I’ve read all the books, become a fascinating woman, a total woman. I’ve become the he’s from Home Depot, she’s from Walmart woman, and nothing was working. And it was still just this sense that something was wrong. I decided to put all the outside advice outside and spend time back in scripture. Which I already was a student of the Bible, but I was reading the Bible based on what other people told me it meant.

So I began to go into the word, and I started to pray. You know Lord, if I’m otherwise minded, Christ Jesus shows me what it is and shows me what’s going on in my marriage. Because I know there’s something, and I don’t know what it is. But I know you know what it is, because you are the God of all truth. So show me what the truth is. I prayed this for years. Part of what happened was that I came to a different understanding.

That I had of who God is before I could even grasp the truth of if my husband is cheating. So I began to see God in a bigger, more empowering, more loving way as I studied the word, and then I decided to start fasting. And so the first time I fasted, I got this impression in my head that was almost like a voice saying to me, there’s three problems in your marriage.

Confronting The TruthLaurie: The first one is your husband’s taken $350 that doesn’t belong to him. The second is he’s committing adultery. And the third is that he has a lot of pride. At that point, I was like, okay, this is what comes of trying to fast and pray. You’ve now gone completely nuts. Because you’re hearing a voice. I was like, why did you do this to yourself? Because obviously none of that can be true. I married a boy scout, and sure enough, shortly after that, I found out about the $350.

He confessed he had a lot of pride, and that left this little nasty thing in the middle, which was the adultery. And I said, I think you’re committing adultery. And he said, oh no, I would never do that. You’re a horrible person for believing that. Why would you even accuse me of that? You’re probably the one doing it. I continued to pray and seek the Lord. And eventually I started having dreams, and I started having dreams where I would see exactly what was going on.

Then I decided that what I was going to do was accept that this is the truth. Whether I had any evidence. Because my husband hid everything. Even his best friend who worked with him didn’t know what he was doing. I began to journal. I said, I feel like my husband is cheating me. And I don’t know what to do about it, but I’m turning it all over to God.

Validation AnD Support when I feel like my husbasnd is cheating Laurie: And one day as I was praying, the phone rang and it was a woman I barely knew. She said, God has heard your prayers and seen your tears, and he’s going to heal you. And within …

Anne: Wow.

Laurie: … an hour, there was a phone call from a credit card company I did not know. My husband had a credit card, and there was a past due payment, and that’s how the truth came out that my husband was cheating.

Anne: Wow, I am so impressed. Because I had dreams, nightmares, and I just thought I was crazy. And I have this like super intense sense of dread that I told my husband about. And I was like, I have the worst sense of dread. I think something bad’s going to happen. And then in the same breath, without listening to him or waiting for his response, I said, ah, I must be crazy, right? I just kind of dismissed it. So I am like, so impressed that you were like, no, I will take these dreams and feelings as the truth. That is gutsy.

Laurie: Well, you know, let me back up and tell you how not gutsy I was and what actually forced me to that position. Because just like you, I thought I was going nuts. I actually one day climbed into bed, put the covers over my head, and started running my finger up and down my mouth. Like I said, I am going crazy because part of me says there’s something wrong and this is what it is. And the other part of me doesn’t know how that could possibly be true.

Accepting The TruthLaurie: And therefore, I’m choosing to ignore what I’ve asked God to show me. And so I’m going to have to take a giant leaf of faith and say, this is the truth, my husband is cheating. If I’m wrong, hey, I’ll own it, but from here on out, I’m not second guessing myself anymore. So I get it, girlfriend. I was there. It was that period when I was going to go crazy that made me say, yes, I’m accepting the truth.

Anne: Your story is so incredible. I mean now, many women have determined their husband’s true character through the steps I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workship. And you can get more information about that by clicking on this link. It will help you determine your husband’s true character. And many women have said they’ve prayed and been led to the Living Free Workshop, and it helped them see the truth of what’s going on.

But back in your day, you didn’t have any resources like Betrayal Trauma Recovery, or anything else. And so you just decided to trust yourself. And that is incredible. That’s one thing that the Living Free Workshop does teach women to do. Like how to get in touch with their sacred internal warning system, so they can discover the truth of their situation.

Laurie: I completely agree with you on that. Can we say it? How awful is it that your worst nightmare is actually true? Okay. I mean, this is not the thing you wake up to and accept. Okay. It’s an awful, awful thing. I mean, the ground drops underneath your feet. On the one hand, you’re happy to know you weren’t nuts.

Understanding Spiritual SensesLaurie: On the other hand, you’re like, I wished I would have been nuts, because this new reality is something I don’t want to deal with, but we are not trained how to live in the spirit. This was a big aha for me, because when I realized I have a body that has senses in it. It has the sense of touch, sight, taste, hearing, smell. And through those senses, I experience the physical world. I have a soul, which allows me to know my internal world, and those senses are my mind, my will, and my emotions. So I shouldn’t ignore that my gut is telling me my husband is cheating.

But I also have a spirit, and it is through my spirit that I know God, and that I experience others in a transcendent way, where deep connects to deep. And this has nothing to do with what I can see with my eyes. But it is an inner knowing that we have, and our spirit senses are conscience, intuition, and communion. And we’re designed to operate from the spirit into the soul and out into the body. So when we intuit something, it is God speaking to us, the absolute truth.

And the idea would be that if we’re operating in a healthy way, we take that information into our mind. And provide instructions for our mind based on what our conscience tells us. This is a good situation, or this is not a good situation. And then the will tells the body what to do in response. And as the body follows these instructions, our emotions are at peace because we’re in integrity.

Mind vs. Spirit Conflict If I feel like my husband is cheatingLaurie: One of the ways we can know that we’re not in integrity. And I don’t mean this in the sense that we’re intentionally doing something we know is wrong, but where we are second guessing our spirit. Because when our mind doesn’t have the facts, we argued, spirit and the mind argue. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, that can’t be true. I have no evidence. Yes, it is true because God sees it as it is, but our mind doesn’t see it. I mean, I only saw exploitative material in our home one time. And we were married for 33 years.

So I had no physical evidence. As you know, this particular addiction, there’s no needle marks, there’s no telltale breath. It’s very easy to hide.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: When your emotions are a mess, it is a sign that your spirit is arguing with your soul. Because your soul doesn’t have any facts to back up what your spirit is sensing. And so you’re second guessing yourself. But if you say what I’m sensing, I’m going to accept that as true until proven otherwise. And then start lining your actions up with that, you will find peace in the midst of the storm.

Anne: Wow, this is cool, to accept that you could be right about your husband cheating. I love you.

Laurie: I love you. It only took 20 years to figure that out.

Anne: When did you write your book? What year was it?

Laurie: It came out in 1996.

Anne: 1996, man, I’m just thinking, I know so many women who are your age or older who went through this. And they, of no fault, didn’t know what was going on, didn’t understand it, and were abused for years.

My Job according To The Church Anne: I am just in awe that you’re part of this generation of women caught in all cultural issues. All the misogynistic things that at the time were common that you couldn’t even see. And you had this head on your shoulders to see this thing straight. You’re like a hero. You’re my Shero.

Good job, way to go. I think many other women saw it, but they didn’t write a book. Many women kind of figured out what was going on. But then it was super scary to speak out about it back then. And it still is now. I mean, sometimes people think I’m crazy. So once you knew about your husband’s cheating, did you go to your church for help? And if you did, what happened?

Laurie: Yes, I did. As a woman of faith, I wanted to handle this God’s way. I can remember saying, what are the rules? What are the rules? What are the rules? And so I went to my church. I entered a buzz saw when I did that. And I was told things like, well, I needed to pray for him. I was the more spiritual and mature and therefore it was my responsibility to pray for my husband.

And then if I would just pray for him and trust God, he would become a man who would stand at the gates. Okay, they quoted proverbs for me. That was my job. To create that in him, I was told I needed to be more available. I was told I had to be more submissive, that no matter what he said or did, I needed to trust God in the middle of all that.

Church’s Naivety And MisguidanceLaurie: I can remember sitting there in my pastor’s office, and I just wanted him to say, adultery is wrong. That’s all I wanted him to say. He didn’t have to give any magic solutions, or I just wanted him to say to me what has happened to you is wrong. And instead, he told me that it was obvious why my husband was doing this, because I was such a strong woman. And he was totally lined up with my husband. I can remember going to a Christian counselor, and my husband had taken some money from one of our children.

And as part of his making amends, he was supposed to apologize and return the money. Just before we went to see the therapist the next time, this child came to me and said, you know, dad still hasn’t dealt with this issue.

And this child was sobbing. I mean, it’s breaking my mother’s heart to see my child suffer like that. So we went to see the therapist, my ex-husband went in first. And when I got in, the therapist was thrilled, because my husband had cooked up this story about how he had gone to the child and apologized, and given the money back, everything was great. I sat there with my mouth open, and I said, no, that’s not what happened. He’s like, What? And I said, no, none of that happened.

This is where the church is so naive. And believe me, I’m not trying to slam Christianity. This man said, well, he wouldn’t lie to me. And what he was saying is that he lies to you because you’re too hard on him. He didn’t believe the my truth, that I knew he was cheating.

Women’s struggles With church Leadership Laurie: You’re not on his team. And if you would just be on his team, he wouldn’t need to lie to you. But I’m on his team, and he knows I’m on his team. So he wouldn’t lie to me.

Anne: Like you’re the problem. You caused his lying, right?

Laurie: Exactly, that’s it. I’ve received so many letters, and so many tell similar stories. I’ve had women suicidal because their church disciplined them because they dared to try to get help. Also I’ve had women who were excommunicated. They’re shamed. They’re made to be accountable to another woman in the church for whether they’re properly submitting and praying for their husband. And are they giving their husband it? Because of course, that’s a woman’s responsibility. You know, don’t withhold yourself.

And I want to believe these people are well intentioned, although at some point I began to doubt. Especially when I saw the size of the problem in the leadership of the church, because many, many, many pastors have this issue. They’re so naive about how real life operates that they have this fantasy that if we just do A, B, and C, then everything will be okay. And that marriage is all about roles instead of relationship.

So they teach marriage as roles, and therefore, you know, the husband is ahead of the home. The wife must submit to him. The children must obey the parents. What it does is create dysfunction. Because you don’t learn how to be in a real relationship. When marriage is all about power, who has the most power? There’s no listening, negotiation, conflict resolution, and there’s no way to be truly intimate.

Being On The Same TeamLaurie: How to recognize and celebrate each other’s strengths, and how to support each other in weakness. Because if somebody is weak, if your husband is cheating, especially if they’re at the top, everybody’s going to be scared because they’re vulnerable. Instead of this is a team effort. let’s pool our resources here.

Anne: I always felt like I was on the same team with my husband, my ex now, but that he was always in competition with me.

Yes, I couldn’t understand that. And I thought, well, we’re on the same team. Like I’m trying to solve a problem. Let’s solve it together. But he didn’t like the resolution of the problem if it wasn’t his idea. And then I found him taking credit for the things I had done. Instead of saying, Oh, my wife did this. She’s amazing. He took credit for it himself.

I started to be really bothered. We’re not on a team. Like he sees me as some kind of minion, like to set him up higher and higher. Or the better I look, the better he looks, not the better we look. Does that make sense?

Laurie: It totally does. You can see how that worldview feeds into the narcissism of the addict.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: The goal is to be admired, right?

Anne: Right, and the more you love them and forgive them, submit and serve them, and all those things, the more their abusive behaviors get them what they want. The reason why men use these abusive behaviors, manipulation, lying, etc., is because they get stuff out of it. If they didn’t get anything out of it, they wouldn’t do it.

Male Church Leaders And Exploitative MaterialAnne: Number one, and number two, unless they stop getting something out of it, they’re not going to stop.

Laurie: That’s right.

Anne: Yeah, it’s working for them. So the whole love forgiveness service type stuff, which are all wonderful values. But the abuser just continues to get all the things they want, and they have none of the accountability. In fact, the women are held accountable, like what you said.

Laurie: Yes, and that’s a sad thing. You know, these women are going into a church with all male leadership. And this is hard to talk about, Anne, because, I mean, my relationship with God is important to me. And I don’t want to needlessly put the church in a bad light. I’m just saying, talking to hundreds of women, and there are some pastors who do a fabulous job, fabulous job of supporting women.

But there are some institutional things that happen in the church. In fact, a Barna group survey showed that 57% of pastors and 64% of youth pastors struggle with exploitative material or have struggled with it. She could actually be talking to somebody who’s husband is also cheating and has the same problem her husband has, and not know it. And it becomes like clubbing baby seals. There are these women are so vulnerable. It just breaks my heart what happens.

Anne: Church leadership further abuses them.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: Yeah, it is painful and it’s wrong.

Laurie: Yes.

Cultural Shifts and Speaking Up if my husband is cheatingAnne: I’m so excited about the time we’re in right now, though, with the Harvey. Is it Weinstein? Weinstein?

Laurie: Harvey Weinstein.

Anne: I don’t know how to say it, but all these women who are being like, I can speak up. And women who are being taken seriously, and women who before people maybe said they were crazy. Now it’s coming out. No, all the things this “crazy” woman said were true. It’s an exciting time. And it’s exciting, because women are becoming healthier and talking about their husbands cheating.

And that will enable and help the men to become healthier too. Because I envision a time where men are accountable for their behaviors. Where they are responsible and fantastic husbands and fathers. And that is what everyone wants. It’s not like we want like, the demise of the male. We just want,

Laurie: We don’t want that.

Anne: No, we want them to step up to the plate and become men.

Laurie: And we want to be women.

Anne: Yeah.

Laurie: I love the idea of being loved. I love the idea of a close relationship with a strong man. That just makes me feel all kinds of feminine. When I’m with a man with good character, who knows how to treat me. Who I can sense is genuine. Now, genuine, not perfect, because if he’s trying to look like he’s perfect, there’s probably a problem.

Anne: It’s like, oh, scary, scary, yeah.

Laurie: So this is how we grow together. This is the beauty God wants for us. And you’re right. We are living in an exciting time, because the cover is being pulled off of this stuff. And more and more will come out.

True Spirituality And IntegrityLaurie: I believe this is the time where God will pull the cover back and give us opportunities to become who he truly created us to be, which is loving beings. I mean, that is what the whole purpose of being here is. It’s about loving one another. You know, those who love live in God. That’s one of the teachings of scripture. And if we’re not loving each other, we’re not even experiencing God in any real way.

Anne: And if we don’t have integrity, we’re not experiencing God in any real way either. The true, like living our truth, living in the truth, right?

Laurie: Absolutely, you bring up such a fabulous point, because I’ve been going to many church conferences. And I’m listening to pastors say that the way we deal with this issue is that we just draw closer to Jesus. We substitute the pleasure of pornography for the pleasure of being with Jesus. I want to say, okay, hello, hello. We’re talking about the way. We’re talking about the truth, we’re talking about the life. First of all, drawing closer to the Lord is about actually living in truth, as you just so brilliantly said, Anne.

It’s about living in what is true. It’s about, as we know, and rely on the love God has for us, and know that we live in love. Then we’re made complete so that we can love others. That it’s about one another, about being close to others. That’s how we truly express our spirituality. And Jesus even said that. He said, when you feed the hungry or the thirsty or clothe the naked, you’re doing that as if you were doing it to me.

Real Relationships vs. FantasyLaurie: This thing about a relationship with God, that is some kind of, I want this to come out right. I’m just starting to see this in a bigger way. It’s almost like they’re teaching to replace the fantasy of exploitative material with the fantasy of an imaginary relationship that happens in your mind. Instead of how we treat each other, how we see God all around us right here, right now, and rejoice in that. Love one another and respect one another. You can’t have this respect if your husband is cheating.

Instead of checking out where I’m having a magical relationship in my head, with someone as a substitute for actually having a real relationship with a real human being. And I hope that doesn’t come across as heretical, but I think it’s key because we’re still teaching men to dissociate.

Anne: Yeah. This also has so much to do with if you should stay married after infidelity.

Laurie: To dissociate, because it all happens in their mind, instead of this place of vulnerability where we’re naked before each other, loving each other, and feeling what it is to be truly loved.

Anne: That’s awesome. You’re very emphatic.

Laurie: I am, I feel it so strongly, because I’m sitting here pounding.

Anne: I love it.

Laurie: It’s about learning how to be in a real intimate relationship, without cheating. That’s where the wholeness is.

Anne: Well, if you just respected him more, if you just loved him more, and if you just did more laundry, right?

Laurie: Oh, I had more sex. Don’t forget that part.

Anne: Yeah, oh, that. There’s a leader in our church that said, I’m gonna hammer this, but he said true religion undefiled before God is helping the poor, the widows, and the orphans.

Call For A Theology Of Trauma when Your husband is cheatingAnne: And these men, through their actions, which are ungodlike, create widows and orphans. They are leaving their wives, or their wives have to say, you can’t be around us anymore because you’re so unhealthy, and cheating and infidelity are abuse. The opposite would be taking care of a woman, so she does not become an affair widow. Making sure you are a good husband and father, so that you do not leave your children fatherless.

And it is based on action, not your ideal version of what you are like, based on all the scriptures you can quote. Or all the prayers that you can say in church to make you look beautiful. It’s actually what your real relationship is with your wife and with your children.

Laurie: Yes.

Anne: Women who are truly loved and cherished love and cherish their husbands. This is why women search for Christian help for infidelity.

Laurie: Yes, they do.

Anne: They love and cherish their husbands, even when their husbands abuse them.

Laurie: Yes, they do.

Anne: They just want their family to work, you know.

Laurie: In fairness, some women are real horror shows. So, I mean, it’s not all in the men. It’s about this whole thing of, you’re right, faith without works is dead. We can talk a good talk, but how do we walk the walk? The church needs a theology of trauma. That understands that the pursuit of justice is a godly pursuit. And one that allows us to reestablish trust where it’s been broken.

Because a theology of trauma understands that there’s a difference between forgiveness and restoration. And between grace and calling a thing a thing, so that grace can much more abound.

Church’s Role In JusticeLaurie: Now it says in Isaiah 117, To learn to do right, to seek justice, to defend the oppressed, to take up the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And Anne, you’re so right. We are affair widows. The church is called to be salt and light in matters of justice. And if the church would just do this, if they would just stand for living in truth and support what is true. Then I truly believe we could restore families, because there would be a path forward.

Anne: Yeah, there is no path forward without accountability.

Laurie: No.

Anne: None, no one believes us, when we say I feel like my husband is cheating. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much for being here, Laurie.

Laurie: Oh, thank you, Anne. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you.

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If you’re wondering, “How do I know if my husband is abusive?” You’re not alone. Hearing the stories of other women can help you know what to do next. Coach Jo is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach who had to ask herself that question in two different marriages.

f you relate with her experience learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions here.

Your Husband Is Abusive If His Porn Use = Sexual CoercionWomen have the right to information about their partner’s sexual behaviors before choosing to be intimately involved and committed to him. A man is not giving his partner the ability to make informed consent if he withholds information about pornography use.

This is called sexual coercion and it is abusive.

An appropriate conversation would include her partner disclosing the full truth his use of pornography and other sexual behaviors prior to intimate contact.

Often, women find that they are in a relationship for several months or years with a pornography user before discovering his secret sexual behaviors.

He’s Abusive If He’s Using Psychological Control TacticsGaslighting, lying, and manipulation are all psychologically abusive tactics. Psychological abuse differs from emotional abuse in that it is intended to make the victim question her own reality.

Often, psychological abusers will take the stance that they “didn’t do it intentionally” or that it “wasn’t calculated.” Perhaps they didn’t intend for their partner to become so depressed from their abuse that she fantasizes about suicide every day…. or perhaps they didn’t intend for their partner to become so unsure of her reality that she truly wonders if she is insane… but they were intentionally choosing to protect their sexual acting-out behaviors by not being honest and forthright.

Every abuser is completely accountable for their every word and action. The consequences on victims can be overwhelmingly tragic and abusers must face the reality that even if it wasn’t “calculated”, it was still intentional.

Pornography Use is Emotionally AbusiveBetrayed women suffer from Betrayal Trauma. Betrayal Trauma is a symptom of abuse, not addiction. Betrayal in and of itself is emotionally abusive. It creates feelings of immense anguish, rejection, terror, and grief. At BTR, we understand that it’s not “just porn”. We understand that your world is crashing down around you. We’re here for you.

https://youtu.be/aljnmnAvdqcTranscript: How Do I Know If My Husband Is Abusive?Anne: I’m so excited to have coach Jo on today’s episode. She’s one of our amazing BTR coaches. All of the coaches here at BTR have been through this and are now able to live free through strategy and boundaries. I’m so passionate about only having women who have been through this on our team.

Jo facilitates Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions and also Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions here at BTR. She’s incredible. And I’m so grateful to have her.

How To Tell If My Husband Is AbusiveAnne: Coach Jo was married to two different abusers. Let’s start with the first one. Did you recognize that he was an abuser at first?

Coach Jo: I didn’t have a clear understanding of what abuse was before we were married. Then pretty quickly it became apparent that there was something wrong, and that it wasn’t safe. I didn’t have the words for that initially, but it became clear very very quickly. It started on the honeymoon.

The second night of the honeymoon he left me in the hotel room for a couple of hours. I had no idea where he had gone. This is pre cell phone. I was distraught and wondering what the heck had happened and what I had gotten myself into.

Is My Husband Emotionally Abusive?Anne: What happened after this?

Coach Jo: There were explosions at the house, a lot of angry outbursts, a lot of name calling, a lot of breaking things. I had no idea what to do. Then we went on a trip together and got lost in the middle of the night. We were circling around looking for our exit or the connecting road, this was before GPS.

He was cussing and screaming and driving like a maniac. Every time we went over an overpass, he would threaten to drive off the overpass. This went on for probably a good hour and a half. And by the time we reached our destination, I locked myself in the bathroom and couldn’t move. There was 20 years of that kind of behavior. We have five children together.

Anne: How did you describe his behavior when you didn’t know it was abuse?

Coach Jo: I told one relative and she said communicate better, try not to trigger him, walk on eggshells around him. It never even occurred to me to ask myself, is my husband abusive?

I did bring it to clergy. Of course my husband was in the room too, and the response that I got was, “Has he hit you?” And the answer was no. Then he said, “So what’s the problem?”

Seeking Help & Not Understanding That My Husband Is AbusiveAnne: At BTR, we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. In fact we have women who work here from various different faiths, also who are agnostic. Wherever a client is, is where we meet them. Would you mind sharing what your specific faith is?

Coach Jo: I am Catholic, this was the only priest that I have encountered personally that had that kind of an attitude .

Anne: This particular priest says, what’s the problem? did you try to get help from anyone else during this time?

Coach Jo: About year six we went to couples therapy and did individual therapy.

Anne: So many women think that couple therapy was going to be the solution. So finally, if he agrees to it, they’re really excited about it and then surprised and so devastated to realize that it makes it worse.

Coach Jo: I kept thinking he doesn’t understand surely he doesn’t understand. Surely, he just doesn’t know a better way. I focused my energy on trying to fix him so couples therapy was my idea.

Anne: Did you know about porn use with him or affairs or prostitutes or anything?

Is My Husband Abusive? Sexual Coercion & BetrayalCoach Jo: Later on, I really understood what BTR talks about, sexual coercion. The idea that you are not a whole being and a whole person. That you are there for somebody else’s sexual gratification.

You have a person receiving sexual gratification from the humiliation and degradation of another person. Even if you don’t have proof positive that they’re watching porn, It will be very apparent in the way that they treat you, the way they look at and speak to other women as well. Really what it came down to was he did not have respect for me. He had no respect for women. He did sexual coercion, if I would not comply with his sexual wishes, he threatened to kill himself.

I found out he had slept with women in our church congregation, in the neighborhood and at the school. It was precarious and degrading not to know. I still didn’t know if my husband was abusive. I didn’t have words or definitions for it.

Coach Jo: I did file for divorce ultimately. Then it was a long, hard road.

Anne: Like you were saying before we recorded, your parents.

Family Choosing His Side When My Husband Is AbusiveCoach Jo: They ended up siding with my first husband.

Anne: Throughout the separation and divorce, you were estranged from your mom and dad. I’m so sorry. That’s so hard.

Coach Jo: If I had to rate traumas, that’s probably not a good idea, I would say that the trauma from that probably hit 10 times worse.

Anne: I’m so sorry. That’s so hard.

Second Marriage: Figuring Out If My Husband Is AbusiveAnne: You mentioned to me before we started recording that the second marriage was completely different. Really quick, before you share, at the very beginning of my marriage, I made friends with someone who had been punched.

Her husband didn’t help around the house. I think he was gone a lot of the time. I said to her, something is wrong. She said to me, “Oh, your husband is amazing. He’s so great, he comes to church, he’s always helping people out. Like, no, he’s not abusive. You don’t have to worry.”

Comparing her abuser, who was overtly abusive, in contrast to what I experienced. The gaslighting, lying, manipulation, and porn use was so different. She couldn’t recognize it, I also couldn’t, but I knew something was very wrong. I didn’t know even to ask if my husband is abusive.

Is My Husband Abusive? Early Red Flags Anne: I’m not sure if that’s what’s coming when it comes to your story, but let’s start with your second marriage. So three and a half years later, you meet your second husband. Can you talk about when you first met him.

Coach Jo: , I don’t think I had my sea legs under me from the first marriage. I felt like I failed at the first marriage. There was an eagerness to get it right, to do it again, to do it better. I asked all the right questions.

I looked for all the flags, but what I didn’t understand is you don’t ask the person your questions. You ask the question and you observe the answer.

Anne: I did the same thing, I asked all the right questions. And yes, I didn’t give it enough time to observe. What I was observing was very disturbing, but I would talk to him about it and he would give me the right answers. Is that what happened to you too?

Coach Jo: Yes. It was like a test. He knew the right answers. The answers I wanted to hear. He hid who he was and what the agenda was. I didn’t find that out until after the honeymoon

Is My Husband Abusive? Does He Use Pornography?Anne: So you’re experiencing sexual coercion. Again, just like you did in the first marriage in this second marriage. He’s also using pornography secretly and lying to you. But in the second one, you do find out that he’s using porn.

Coach Jo: Yeah, he had joined a men’s program for addicts/abusers.

Anne: Porn addicts. Did he do this on his own, or were you kind of like, hey, you should try this?

Coach Jo: I did all the research. I thought, I have to make this work. I found everything. We had a couple’s therapist. Not helpful. Zero out of five stars, it was during COVID. I kept thinking that maybe something would change if I just hung on tight. I say that my first husband was abuse by fire. The second was abuse by ice. So he would withdraw and ignore your presence. He would tell you what you were feeling, but all of it, very calm, very metered, nothing to see here.

He wanted me to function in certain roles as a companion for activities to show up and be the couple. I was useful for that. But then when I wanted to take up space and be something other than the role, it wasn’t okay. I was too much. It was obvious that it was a pain if I were me instead of the role. It took me a long time to identify that my husband is abusive.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery & Finding SupportAnne: Because this wasn’t a relationship, to him it was a show or something?

Coach Jo: It was functional. There was an image. If I was upholding the image, then that was fine. If I was asking for something more, if I was asking for something relational, there was no room for that. Early one morning we were talking. It wasn’t a conflict, he was talking about how I looked or how I presented. He said he wanted to pour acid on my face and then sloughed it off as a joke, and I was horrified.

It was through a conversation with my friend who said, listen, this is a big deal and you can’t ignore this. You really need to speak with these women over at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. They can help you, BTR was a game changer for me because it gave me language. Somebody in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions said “wife appliance”. That’s it, that’s what I am. I’m a “wife appliance.” That term really resonated with me.

Joining BTR and getting coaching was what what I needed BTR said the porn user is responsible for their own actions. Not just the viewing of porn, but the way they treat their spouse and the other individuals in their life as a result of the porn use. And it is not my responsibility to make it comfortable for the abuser so that they can stop their behaviors. The responsibility lies solely with the abuser and not the victim. And my husband is abusive.

Traditional Therapy Enabled My Husband’s Emotional AbuseAnne: How was that different than the other program? that you were in or the therapy you were going to?

Coach Jo: Sex addiction therapy does not give you the same language. It doesn’t give you the same solution. In sex addiction therapy you’re told to communicate better, to provide a safe environment. You check in and you talk about your feelings and you talk about what’s bothering you and you talk about what you need.

In couples therapy you’re supposed to communicate better. When you’re communicating with an abuser, anything you say is used against you. Any information that you give is used to maintain that power and control. So it’s very, very high risk for the spouse

Anne: The emotional abuser exploits your emotions and the things that you tell them for their own purposes. It’s never resolving something between you. He’s just excited that you’re giving him information that he can use to exploit you. So it’s extremely dangerous to be vulnerable with an emotional abuser. And my husband is abusive.

I can’t figure out why therapists haven’t figured this out yet. It’s probably because they don’t have any other tools. They just think communication is always good. Also, they don’t think of him as exploiting the emotion. They think, well, obviously when she tells him how hurt she is, that will make a difference. They don’t realize that’s not what has happened in the past, and it’s certainly not what’s going to happen in the future.

My Husband Is Abusive Because He Uses These Deceptive TacticsAnne: Therapists haven’t figured this out yet because abusers lie. They say they care about the relationship, about the family and about us when they don’t. They’re not going to walk right into a therapist and say, I actually don’t like my wife. As well as, I want to have sex with other people.

Coach Jo: I’m sorry, I’m laughing because I can’t picture that ever happening. At least the playing field would be level, right? That you can make an informed decision. As painful as it would be, it would give you enough information to make a decision in your best interest.

Anne: Because it’s exploitative, they have a reason to lie. If they weren’t getting something from you, maybe meals, maybe childcare, and sex. If they weren’t getting something, then they probably wouldn’t mind saying, “Hey, you know what? I’m done. I’m going to go have sex with other people.” But they need to keep their exploitative privilege intact. And that is why they’re not willing to be honest. Because they’re going to lose something if they’re honest.

Coach Jo: I think that’s a difficult thing to come to terms with, the reality of, Hey, hold on a second. None of this was in my best interest. It was difficult to see it as intentional. That’s the main difference that I found, at least on a practical boots on the ground level at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helped Me Know If My Husband Is AbusiveCoach Jo: You weren’t required to become vulnerable to your spouse in order to solve the problem. That is the beauty of BTR. It provides a space where you’re able to speak the truth of what’s happening. Without any background noise, without anybody trying to circumvent. What you see, you can duck out of the subterfuge take a minute to breathe and assess what’s happening. Its a space where I can figure out if my husband is abusive.

Coach Jo: It’s so helpful. If I could wave a magic wand. I would give women in these situations turning the volume down on the abuser’s voice. You could sit back and watch the actions, the attitudes, what’s actually happening and not what’s being said. You can actually assess if your husband is abusive. That would be a huge gift. Betrayal Trauma Recovery does provide that place to pause and assess what’s happening.

Anne: Without any interference from anyone else.

Even though it’s difficult information, it provides a place to process that’s safe. Then you can listen to other women’s stories as well and see that you’re not the only one. And look at the common threads. And it becomes easier to identify when you see it. You can view from a distance if my husband is abusive.

Anne: You found BTR in your second marriage, which helped you know If your husband is abusive. You saw the emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. How would it have been different had you found BTR in your first marriage?

The Journey Of HealingCoach Jo: I think it would have been a game changer. I did not understand the emotional abuse the exists and things of that nature. Even engaging in an individual session or two and just throwing out some of these behaviors and saying, Hey, hold on a second. Is this okay? Is this all right? Without my spouse there. Because up until then, all of the appointments had occurred with him in the room,

Anne: Trying to identify if your husband is abusive with your abuser in the room. That’s so unethical for the therapist doing that. They have no idea what they were doing and it’s so scary.

Coach Jo: Because you can’t say anything. Like how do you speak the truth when you know there’s going to be consequences? So they never have an opportunity to hear the truth of what’s happening.

Anne: Yeah, it’s really scary actually . None of the situation was your fault. People don’t get abuse education and even if you understand it, trying to figure out how to be safe is difficult. Can you also talk about maybe what would have been different had you known about BTR going into your second marriage.

Coach Jo: It would have been a more expanded view of what abuse looks like. And then the converse, what character looks like, what integrity looks like. It’s not what somebody says. It’s what they do. Where their eyes trail, it’s all of the things. BTR really helped me to know if my husband is abusive. Character and integrity show up in every area of somebody’s life. Just being able to bounce that off of somebody.

Understanding My Husband’s Abuse & Setting BoundariesCoach Jo: I think BTR is the perfect place if you’re dating, maybe not in group sessions, but in individual sessions. It’s a beautiful space to talk about behaviors, attitudes, tone, habits and things like that. Where you can sort these things out with somebody else who gets it. Then take time to investigate and make an informed decision or as informed as you can. The gift of a pause and a little bit of silence makes all the difference in the world.

One of the things that made Betrayal Trauma Recovery different was the focus on the things that I had control over, like setting boundaries. Like what level of risk I wanted to take when I was talking with my husband. How to navigate day to day living and all of the details where the abuse permeates your life. It helped me to know if my husband is abusive.

Anne: Did you find any other resource you went to understood all the different ways that it permeates your life?

Coach Jo: I think that the underlying understanding was that they believed the mask. Truly, he was a good guy. He was just good. Not slick enough to recognize the mistakes he was making. BTR reframed it as well, he’s hitting the bullseye every time.

How is that an accident? How does he happen to say the thing that hurts you the most? Right after you told him that was painful? How does he happen to withhold when you’re having the worst day ever and you’ve got tears running down your face. That’s not an accident. But all the other programs looked at it like, oh it’s just goofy, doesn’t mean any of it.

The Importance Of Language & SupportCoach Jo: BTR looked at it and went, no, hold on a second. You can’t hit the mark right on that many times accidentally. It doesn’t work that way. And if you step back and look at it, it makes total sense. But you have to step back and look at it from a different angle. And it’s not my job to figure out why, but BTR helped me to say, Hey, what’s happening, what does it feel like? What does it look like? And then what do you want to do? It gave me choices.

Anne: I think one of the things that other professionals are maybe afraid of is the consequences of calling it abuse. And BTR is not afraid. We’re not pro divorce, we’re definitely pro safety, and pro safety means we’re not afraid of looking it right in the eye and calling it what it is. Whereas I think other people are like, if I say that to him, it might hurt his feelings. Or it might make him angry, or the marriage might fall apart, or this or that. And BTR is not afraid of the consequences of truth.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery wants you to figure out if your husband is abusive.

Who Pays The Price Of My Husband’s Abuse Coach Jo: The way I look at it is, who’s paying the price tag for these behaviors. Everybody’s okay with the wife paying the price tag for the behaviors, but nobody wants to put it on the perpetrator. That is a huge shift which is, hold on a second. I pay the price tags for my actions and you need to pay them for yours.

Anne: Why do you think that is? Why do you think the typical professional in this doesn’t mind having the woman pay the price tag, but they really have a hard time with the man paying it?

Coach Jo: There’s an image that’s maintained of the man being just a hapless victim of his own actions. Which is kind of insulting, quite frankly.

Anne: Insulting to him, you mean?

Coach Jo: Absolutely, but I’m looking at somebody that makes the same choice 10, 12, 20, 100 times in a row, and it’s a conscious decision. He actually has to make an effort to make these choices. He’s got free will and he’s exercising it. Why can’t we look at that and say, all right. Now, what are we going to do?

Oh, he’s a big, goofy, nice guy who doesn’t really understand what he’s doing. Give him a break. Just be nicer. Just communicate better. He’ll get it eventually that’s the prevailing paradigm.

Anne: Which only benefits him. It doesn’t benefit the victim at all.

Decisions After Finding Safety From An Abusive HusbandAnne: So after you had such success and healing through BTR, you decided that you wanted to be a BTR coach. Can you talk more about why you made that decision?

Coach Jo: It’s just such a beautiful community to be a part of. Seeing women grow, become strong, Make decisions that will benefit them and their families moving forward.

I absolutely loved when I was in group. Women dream again and dreaming in myself something different for my life that may or may not include marriage. That may or may not include dating, there was a sense of freedom. To be a part of that was just so special. And also helping women through the rough times.

Sitting with them, to be a comfort and to give language where none existed before. And then maybe help them focus their hope towards a brighter future. And just seeing that happen was just so beautiful. The desire to be a part of that was overwhelming.

Anne: We’re so grateful to have you. You’re such an important part of our team.

Combining Professional Skills With CoachingAnne: Coach Jo had an amazing career that she could have continued. She decided to stop and do this because she wanted her career and her work life to be more fulfilling. You have all these amazing skills that you bring to the table when you coach at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Coach Jo: Yeah. BTR fit with everything that I have loved in my professional career with finance. So the additional training that I’ve been able to take as a BTR coach for divorce. Some in finance and with some of the legalities were right in my wheelhouse.

Then combining that with being able to walk with women. As they go through these just courageous journeys In dealing with the abuse and transforming through all of it. It’s a fulfilling culmination of putting all the skills to good use to help women.

The Value Of Personal Abuse ExperienceAnne: One of the things I think is so important with abuse coaching is having someone who has experience, personal experience. All of the coaches here at BTR have been through this. They’ve all experienced this type of abuse, and then they also have the training so they know what it feels like to have their husband cheat on them.

They know what it feels like to tell people and not get help. All of our coaches here really understand it on a visceral level. But also educated, all of us at BTR have been through the harrowing adventure that is healing from betrayal trauma.

Helping Women Through HealingAnne: Can you talk about helping women through that as a coach? Because I think that’s another thing that perhaps influencers or therapists might give people. The impression that oh, as soon as you change this, things will go really fast for you. You’ll be fine kind of a thing.

I’m just thinking of a few influencers that I know. They have these fix your marriage workshops. They’re like six classes, each class is a half hour or so. It’s the static thing online. You check off some boxes. Like, did you tell him how you feel? Great. Box checked. Did you do this? Check. As if there’s some magic thing that can solve all these problems quickly. Or he stopped using porn. Yay. Check. It’s over with.

Coach Jo: That’s so scary

Anne: It’s so scary.

The Reality Of The Healing Process If Your Husband Is AbusiveAnne: I know this is a journey. It’s hard for me to say that because I want to give women hope that safety is possible. Also to have realistic expectations. A friend was over at my house the other night and she was feeling really terrible. She’s about to file for divorce and she is just not feeling great.

I said to her, I promise you’re going to feel better in, and then I paused and I said, are you ready for me to tell you how long? I said, definitely. At least three years. It’s like the most awful thing to say to someone. But it also kind of liberates you to know I’m not weird. I’m not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with me, that it’s taking a while for me to extricate myself from this nightmare. Because it’s a nightmare.

Coach Jo: Yeah, absolutely And the idea is not that, you go through purgatory for three years and all of a sudden you’ve arrived. It is a process. It’s like a snowball rolling downhill over time. Incrementally, you’re adding on to your confidence, belief in yourself, knowledge, and skills to be out in the world. You’re building a life. That takes time. It’s a beautiful incremental step by step process and being a part of Betrayal Trauma Recovery while you’re going through that process.

The Importance Of Community & VisionCoach Jo: BTR provides language, provides support in the form of community. And other women who are going through it with you. It also provides vision. You see they’ve been here for two years and they’re finally wrapping up their divorce. That healing that has taken place along the way, you’re a witness. Even if that’s not where you’re at on your path, it does show you that a different future is possible. It’s a baby step process.

It’s beautiful as a coach to be able to have the client look in the rear view mirror and see how far they’ve come. I think that’s one of the greatest gifts of coaching. You know, you’re going through the hard stuff, but it’s also being able to remind somebody. Remember when we started out back here and look how far you’ve come.

Anne: Everybody’s path is different it doesn’t have to include divorce. Regardless of what you choose and where your path leads you, BTR can help you on that path.

Encouragement When Your Husband Is AbusiveAnne: If someone is listening and this is the first episode they’ve ever heard of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and they’re thinking, I’m not sure my husband is abusive. This sounds kind of extreme. I don’t know. Maybe I should try couple therapy first. What would you say to them?

Coach Jo: Check your gut because there’s a reason why you’re listening. Do an inner inventory. Be really honest, it’s scary at first. Then, bring in points of view from women who have gone through it. Give BTR a shot. Nobody at BTR is going to push you anywhere you don’t want to go. No Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach is going to try and direct you somewhere . You’re going to determine your path, your pace.

Anne: I had a hard time considering it was abuse. It was emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion that I was dealing with. I didn’t want that to be the case because I didn’t want the consequences of it. Sometimes people wonder, if I get educated about abuse, am I going to see it where it isn’t?

That’s like saying, if you’re a hammer, everything’s a nail. Am I going to say it’s abuse if it’s not that? Women listening whose husbands are not abusive tell me, I didn’t really relate. Abuse education is just abuse education. It doesn’t create abuse when abuse doesn’t exist. As we describe these things, if you relate, that is exactly what’s happening to me. You can know if your husband is abusive. Then you can start making decisions in the light of truth.

Healing From His Abuse Through The Living Free WorkshopAnne: That’s one thing we do really well here, is give women very concrete ways to improve their safety, and they can observe at a safe distance to see what the reality of their situation is, what they really couldn’t see before.

Coach Jo: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is excellent at defining what boundaries are, what they look like, and a practical map for how to use them. One of the most important ideas that I did not grasp during the first marriage or the second marriage was that you can’t be perfect enough to stop abuse.

So spinning your wheels, trying to get everything right, keep all the plates spinning. Do it with a smile on your face, don’t react or be harsh. Communicate things that make him feel good about himself or whatever the paradigm is. Can’t do it right enough to fix whatever’s happening with him. You can’t stop his abuse by being more perfect. Identifying that my husband was abusive was just the first step.

Anne: Or even by getting them in the right program. There’s lots of things that would apply there.

Coach Jo: Yeah, say it right, do it right, find the right instructor, the right video.

Anne: Find the right video, therapist, this, or that. It’s crazy, all the things.

Coach Jo: Have my cousin’s husband talk to him, maybe that’ll fix it.

Anne: Exactly.

Coach Jo: The proof is in the pudding. He’s been doing this for years, and people know right and wrong. I think that’s the hardest thing to come to grips with is that this is a conscious decision. Watching what’s happening and looking at that in reality and saying, Hey, hold on a second.

Making Decisions That Create SafetyCoach Jo: This is a conscious decision, and so in turn I have to start making conscious decisions. About my emotional safety, the safety of my family, what does safety look like in my context? The beauty of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that we’ll walk alongside as you figure it out. Sometimes the spouses do come alongside. So what you were saying before, it doesn’t always end in divorce. A spouse can choose to come alongside and walk that new path.

Anne: Yeah, we have no idea what’s going to happen. I wish we did. I wish there were some guarantees. That’s what we all wanted when we started this journey. It was just something to let us know that we would be okay. And the good news is there’s a way to be okay. There’s a way to heal and away to live a life of peace. There’s a way to thrive. We don’t know exactly how you’re going to apply the principles of safety, but we do know what those principles of safety are.

And that is why I think other programs are dangerous. They assume that if you just educate him a little bit better that he’ll be able to do the right thing, which doesn’t make sense because he knows how to do the right thing. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be able to even act like he knew how to do the right thing. If he didn’t know what the right thing was. At BTR we help you identify if your husband is abusive.

Concluding That My Husband Is AbusiveAnne: Coach Jo is available to do Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions with clients. She also runs several of our group sessions. Attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions is a great way to get to know all the coaches. And see which one you jive with, and then do an individual session from there. Our coaches are all incredible. They’re all so knowledgeable. And the most important thing, they’ve all been through it. They all totally understand what you’re going through.

Anne: You’re amazing coach Jo. I love having you on the BTR team. And I’m so glad that we got to talk today on the podcast so the listeners get to know you better. Thank you so much.

Coach Jo: Absolutely, Anne. I appreciate being on the team with you. It’s such a joy.

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Emotional abuse affects your body in a variety of ways. Many women in The BTR.ORG Community have experienced devastating emotional, physical, and mental symptoms. Here’s Joyce’s story.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are here for you if you’re experiencing negative health affects of emotional abuse.

Transcript: Emotional Abuse Affects Your BodyAnne: I have a special friend who came to my house today. She is in my basement recording with me. We’re gonna call her Joyce. She’s a member of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, and I know her in real life. The story takes a dramatic turn.

We’ll start with her story and then near the end we’ll talk about how all how emotional abuse affects your body and your health. When you met your husband, soon to be ex, Joyce how would you define his behavior?

Joyce: We met on Tinder and I had actually canceled our first date because I was getting very exhausted by dating.

But when I got home from my first date, I thought he was so nice because he told me that he had picked a smoothie place because it was public and it was short and there were cameras. He thought that would make women feel safe. In my mind, I thought, oh that is so considerate. This guy is looking out for women’s needs. Awesome.

Anne: Man

Joyce: Within a month, we were dating, and within three months, we were engaged.

Anne: I, too, had a very quick engagement. Ah.

Even First Time Emotional Abuse Affects Your BodyAnne: When did you start recognizing that some of his behaviors weren’t what you were looking for?

Joyce: You know, I struggle with ignoring my first instincts. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Even while we were dating, there were times where I was like, that’s a little odd. I am better at doubting myself than doubting other people. I remember he got really angry at a bill on one of our dates. He thought they had overcharged us and he apologized to them after. It was not something I was comfortable with and didn’t really know how to address.

If I’d known better or was more comfortable with accepting that something is a red flag, I would have made different choices. Even first time emotional abuse affects your body.

Anne: We’ve all been there. You just don’t know what you don’t know, right? Right. Yeah. You get married and when you start recognizing things are really kind of strange, what reasons do you give for this behavior?

Joyce: Yeah, it happened really fast.

Honeymoon Red FlagsJoyce: On our honeymoon, in fact, we went to Hawaii, his choice. At a restaurant, I ordered a ginger beer, which is a non alcoholic beverage, it reminded me of my childhood. My dad would get us ginger beer around Christmas, it was fun.

The drink cost six dollars, it infuriated him that I had spent that kind of money on something. He wasn’t yelling, but he was very stern in the restaurant. When we got into the car, he wouldn’t speak to me.

A tactic that he started using then and used throughout our marriage was to say, “Help me understand why you made that decision, Joyce. Why did you do that?” I said, “I don’t understand what the big deal is. I I don’t know when I’m coming to Hawaii again. It’s our honeymoon. I just thought it would be fun. Why you’re so upset about a drink.” He apologized.

I think that’s one of the few times he apologized for an overreaction. I know it’s triggering to say overreaction, but it is actually an overreaction. Oh, for him, yeah.

Joyce: Yes, for additional context, I paid for the meal. I was not putting an expense on him, I was paying for it. The next morning I was still feeling unsettled, emotional abuse affects your body. He was still asleep. I went for a walk around the block and I thought, okay, this must be what marriage is like. It’s going to be fine. It was in fact, not fine.

Anne: It was not fine, but you didn’t know that. Right, you didn’t know that.

https://youtu.be/twBoXh_OABAMarriage & Emotional Abuse Isolation BeginsAnne: Did you tell anyone about this back then?

Joyce: No. For context, this was his second marriage. He was married before, very briefly in his mid twenties. Other people potentially inferred he was the issue. He said he was very uncomfortable with us talking about things to other people.

He started putting restrictions on what I could and couldn’t say to people very early on. The restrictions increased. Anytime he caught me talking to someone, or if I said anything out of line, it would result in a serious argument.

Anne: Okay. An emotional abuse episode. But you didn’t know to call it that back then? No.

Joyce: Yeah.

Anne: What did you think about him? Did you think it was you? Did you think it was him? What was your thought process back then?

Joyce: I one hundred percent thought it was me. Absolutely, I thought it was me. I’d never been in a long term relationship. He seemed more well spoken than I, and he framed himself as more intelligent.

He’d been married before. Right, more experienced. I felt, I thought, oh, it must be me. I don’t know what I’m doing. He would frame my friends and family as weird or odd. I didn’t have good influences. I didn’t know how to appropriately, in his words, behave.

Anne: for the amount of time I’ve known you, you are always behaving appropriately. I can’t even imagine what he would be talking about.

Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body: Sexual CoercionAnne: Did you know about any porn or infidelity

Joyce: Yes, shortly before we got engaged he told me that he had a porn addiction that had surfaced after his first marriage. He told me it was not a problem while he was in a relationship.

Only when he was not in a relationship did he have this problem. In other words, in my mind, if he’s getting his needs met, if you know what I mean, then it’s not a problem. I just responded with empathy and I said, I know it must be so difficult. Is there anything I can do to support you? He said, that’s it.

That’s all you need to do. I did go into the marriage knowing he had a porn addiction.

Anne: Did he use that against you? Threaten, like, you know I have a porn addiction if I don’t get sex?

Joyce: It was definitely implied that if he was getting his needs met, then he would not have that issue.

The pressure definitely was on me and if I didn’t comply with what he wanted, then I was the instigator of his porn addiction at that point. He would use it as a tool to manipulate me in other ways. Like if he wanted privacy, he would accuse me of spying on him, which I was absolutely not doing. I would just come in to see him and say, Hey, how are you doing?

Psychological Abuse Affects Your BodyHe would be in his office. He said, I don’t like it when you do that. If I’m in here, you have to knock. If I don’t give you permission to come in, don’t come in. Otherwise I feel like you’re spying on me, which out of context is insane. In the marriage, it just made me feel like, oh my gosh, I’m the worst wife ever. That he thinks I would spy on him.

Anne: He knows by now that all wives observe their husbands. So, he had something going on that he didn’t want you to know about.

Joyce: I do believe that now. I have no proof of that. I never spied on him. Never opened his phone, his computer, anything like that. I have no evidence of that, but his behavior would suggest that, yeah.

Anne: Well, and he told you that.

Joyce: Right. Misplaced trust as it turns out, but that’s how I thought about it.

Anne: Had you done any research about pornography addiction? Did you know how it affected people or how they acted when they were using it

Joyce: All of my information on that was just anecdotal stuff you just pick up along the way. People talk about it. in passing and whatever he told me, which was not much.

Anne: Okay, not like, oh, I’m going to research a ton about this.

Joyce: This is why the accusation of spying was really jarring for me because I try so hard to give people emotional space and I didn’t even research porn because I thought, well, he’s an adult. He can talk to me about it. We’ll go from there.

Exploiting Your WeaknessAnne: Do you think you’re naturally that way to give people space, or do you think some of it was him manipulating you to back off?

Joyce: I think there was an element of that, I had some abuse from a caretaker when I was growing up, that made it easier for him to feed into. It’s like your insecurities. Yes. I had insecurities.

Anne: He was exploiting your weaknesses. Instead of loving you and supporting you in your weaknesses.

Joyce: Interestingly, when I opened up to him about the abuse, said that I must be exaggerating. That didn’t happen. He, in fact, did not believe me, which is very odd.

Anne: Yeah. Or not so odd since he was an abuser.

Joyce: Right. And that actually makes more sense now. I thought, why don’t you believe me? Why would anyone tell you that?

Anne: What do you do to try to solve quote unquote, your problem that’s really his problem?

The Pain Of Emotional Abuse Affects Your BodyJoyce: I went to therapy. So much therapy, including couples therapy. None of which helped, because it wasn’t me. I spent years, I went through three therapists, personal therapists, in our marriage. I was convinced it must be me. The first one was not super helpful. She just told me to journal, and never gave me any other insights. The second one I called to cancel a session.

I was distraught after an abuse episode with my husband. I couldn’t deal with it. My husband called me to try to, “work it out.” My dad was listening at the door. I think he started to get an idea that things were abnormal. They weren’t marriage growing pains or things like that. He talked to me after and said, he’s putting everything back on you. Is that normal?

I made excuses and said, no, no he’s right. I’m overreacting. I went back the next day. I found a different therapist, because he wasn’t comfortable with me going to that one anymore.

Anne: Okay. I think it’s really telling of the state of therapy that so many therapists have a really difficult time helping people identify abuse. They don’t want to make the wrong decision, like, maybe this person is the abuser, so I don’t want to say they’re being abused. Even if that person is the abuser. Wouldn’t getting their victim away be helpful?

Joyce: Yes, I honestly think it probably stems from people being afraid of lawsuits or losing their license and ability to practice. One hundred percent because their license is a marriage and family therapy license. They could lose their license or be sued. They can’t really help people identify abuse, which is awful.

Undiagnosed Abuse Affects Your BodyAnne: People can go to therapy for years and years and years and not know they’re a victim of abuse. That none of it is their fault and that they don’t even need to be in therapy.

Joyce: That’s probably why there’s such rampant abuse, and such negativity toward women. Right.

Anne: If he did go to a therapist, it wouldn’t help him though.

Joyce: My soon to be ex, he went to therapy, probably just to tick off the box. He went to two sessions, said he didn’t like the person, so he was not going to look anymore.

Anne: Right. Well, even if he had found one, I mean, mine went to therapy consistently for seven years and the therapist loved him. They thought he was awesome because all he did in the session was convince them that I was crazy.

He didn’t get any help for himself. I became more and more of the enemy, because what he was telling the therapist wasn’t true. You can’t get help if you’re not willing to tell the truth. He loved going to therapy and lying to the therapist and having the therapist tell him what an awesome guy he was.

Joyce: Makes me so angry.

Anne: Thank you. Sometimes you gotta hear it. You heard it from her. She knows me in real life and apparently in real life, I also am not crazy.

Joyce: Very sane.

Realization That He Was The ProblemAnne: When did you realize that your efforts to fix yourself, they’re not helping your marriage and they’re not helping you?

Joyce: Horrifyingly, I only really realized that within the past six months. I felt like a more capable person than I had been in a long time emotionally. The fog was lifting. I was thinking, wait a minute, this is not me. I’ve done all this work. I’ve been doing this work for years. Things started to click that no, it isn’t me. We don’t have children. We have dogs. I was taking one of our dogs to the vet and the words came into my head.

“You can’t rely on him.” That is the first time I realized that I cannot rely on this person for anything. To be emotionally available, to treat me with any degree of kindness, to be an equal partner in a marriage. There was no equality in our marriage ever. That was a really stark realization. It was at that point that I started thinking, okay, so what are my next steps? I didn’t know what to do. I talked to my family.

Yeah, once you realize there’s a problem. The next problem is figuring out what to do.

Finding Help For Emotional AbuseAnne: That is where BTR comes in. First, educating women about identifying emotional abuse, psychological abuse or sexual coercion. Then helping women know what to do. If you’re wondering, what do I do? The Living Free Workshop is a great place to start. If you have kids, it is really important to know how to communicate with them. The Message Workshop is important.

Most women who come on the podcast have listened to the podcast and they meet me through BTR. We met in an unusual way. We have a new member in our congregation, my junior high choir teacher. He asked me where my husband was. I said, I’m a single mom. He found out that I do abuse stuff. He said, my daughter is in this situation and maybe you can help her. I said, have her call me.

Joyce: This choir teacher is my dad. Right, so I did not know her at the time.

My dad had been concerned for some time, but it was, like I said, only recently that I had been having conversations with him about it. My spouse had isolated me from family and friends. They were not allowed to come to the house. There was limited time that I could spend with them. If left for more than a half an hour, he would start calling and checking in, seeing when I was going to come home.

Physical Intimidation Affects Your BodyJoyce: My soon to be ex had gotten angry and told me that I was holding him back in life. That I was like the person who abused me. I said, why would you say that to anyone who has been abused? That is not okay. I said, if that is how you feel, we should not be married. He got furious. He broke a TV tray.

Anne: Physical abuse in the form of physical intimidation, people aren’t educated about that. They don’t know that it is physical abuse.

Joyce: Yeah

Anne: Right

Joyce: It was scary, right next to one of our dogs. I said, stop, you’re scaring everybody. Please stop. He turned it on me and said, this is your fault. You’re the one making everyone upset. This goes on for a couple of hours. My spouse had been showing me a video of one of our dogs on his phone.

We were sitting in bed. I leaned over, looking at this video, and then some time went by, a few seconds, maybe a minute. I felt him grab my face and shove me back. Hard, I had a shooting pain in my neck. I asked him why he did that. He said, oh, you were in my personal space, he was very calm. He wasn’t angry. This one frightened me because he wasn’t angry.

Anne: Would you say overall, just for our listeners, 99 percent of the abuse was emotional and psychological, and sexual coercion, right?.

Joyce: Yes, he crossed a major line. I don’t know if there was some residual anger. I really don’t know. His physical attack truly affects your body.

Anne: Knowing a little bit of the story, I think he’s sensing that he’s losing control. He’s trying to assert control again.

Physical Abuse Affects Your BodyJoyce: Yeah. I knew that was a turn in our marriage for the worse. The escalation in behavior that I felt was inherently violent. There was a violent undertone. Not to mention this, this was physical violence now. I have an injury, I told him, Hey, that really hurt. I have some pain. Why did you do that? Can you please promise me never to do that again? He said, I’m sorry, your neck is hurting.

That’s the only apology, by the way, I ever got.

He said that I need to stop talking that way, because if someone heard me, they’d accuse him of doing something wrong. They would take away his guns. The minute he brought the guns up, there was a shift in the atmosphere. I thought, okay, this is a problem. I don’t know what to do, if that is where his head is at. Not that he just did something uncalled for and physically injured someone he says he cares about.

He’s worried about losing access to firearms. That’s a problem. I’m trying over the next couple of weeks to sneak things out of the house so that I can leave. As I mentioned, I don’t really have much time or space to do that where I’m not being observed. It’s not going well. I had been meeting my dad for lunch when I was at work. I was starting to tell him things are very bad. Then my dad gives me your number and I call you.

Teaching Safety Principles To WomenAnne: We deal with emotional and psychological abuse here at BTR, and safety is up to the woman who’s going through it, our only goal is safety. Divorce isn’t going to solve the problem in so many cases. If you get divorced and you share children, the abuse will continue after divorce. Finding safety is different for everybody.

All this to say, I teach women, safety principles and how to be safe and what safety looks like, have them take The Living Free Workshop, consider their options, take small steps to discover what’s right for them. I knew she’d be calling me the next day, and I could not sleep, I was thinking about all the things her dad had said, over and over. I felt like it was the spirit telling me, she cannot go back home.

She can only be at work once a month, sometimes, or maybe once a week. If she doesn’t get out tomorrow, she’s going to die. Like she’s in serious danger. Having a friend of mine have her son murdered, murder is an issue, like the Josh Powell story, he was never physically abusive that we know of until he murdered his wife. Then he murdered his children.

Michael Haight, I talked about him on the podcast earlier. Same thing with the dentist that I talked about. They’re not murderers until they become murderers. By that time you’re dead and they’re not.

Urgency And Alarm BellsAnne: Alarm bells are going off in my brain. I’m not the kind of person who says, you have to get out right now. That’s not how I do my job. I’m thinking, this is weird. The panic bells are going off for me, even before I talked to her based on what her dad had said.

Joyce: Right. My spouse was being nice. I don’t know, sometimes you just feel like something is different. I felt like that and I couldn’t put my finger on it. To validate what you were feeling, I definitely was sensing something.

Someone was going to ask me, did he do anything? Did you say anything? No, but I’ve been married to him for several years. He was odd. When I went into the office around noon, I called you and you said, would you be able to leave work right now? I don’t really think I thought about it. I think I just said yes, let’s do this.

Anne: The things that she described check off all of the boxes on the lethality assessment. I was thinking it should be a no-brainer for her to get a protective order if we go to the domestic violence shelter, I remember you saying, what am I going to tell him? I said, you never have to talk to him again, ever.

You don’t have kids with him. You literally never have to talk to him again. Just leave work, come, leave all your stuff at home. We can figure that out later. We’ll get you a protective order and then you can go back with a police escort and get your stuff. I’ve been trained in the state that I live in, I know what I’m doing, I also know how hard it is.

Seeking Protection From Abuse Affects Your BodyAnne: It was still Shocking to me how bad the local services were. We do Individual Coaching Sessions and BTR Group Sessions every day and women get help in the form of support and validation. All our services are online. We help victims navigate local services since they’re usually so bad, and what they can do next. I have never had somebody in my car driving them around.

Joyce: I was pretty much in a state of shock the entire day. I was terrified. Absolutely terrified. I was afraid of what was going to happen when he found out. Just grabbing the lifeline, hoping that it was going to work out. The anxiety and fear really affects your body.

I let my work know that I had an emergency and needed to leave, I met you. We left my car somewhere, and drove to a resource center, which we struggled to get into.

Anne: They wouldn’t let us in.

Joyce: We got in, eventually someone came to the desk. They handed me some paperwork. I’m not really sure what the paperwork was.

Anne: It was to get services as a victim of domestic abuse. We walk into this domestic violence shelter, which also gives services. Not because she needs shelter, she can live with family, but because that’s the place you go when you need local services. There were no services. I said, “She needs a protective order right now. She’s checking all the lethality assessment boxes.”

They’re acting like, we don’t even know what that is, she needs a protective order! They said oh, thanks for the paperwork. You’ll hear back from us in a couple of days. Both of us look at each other.

Hospital Visit: Emotional Abuse Affects Your BodyAnne: We know he’s coming after her and he’s tracking her. He has left the house. That’s one of the lethality assessment boxes to check that I’m talking about. I’m thinking we need a protective order now. This is going to become an incident. We need police protection now. She was saying, Oh, we’ll call you in a couple days. I was like, no, no, I can’t take her home.

At this moment, I am the domestic abuse expert, and Joyce, is like, out for the count. Emotionally, physically, she’s just like, what is happening? All of the stress and fear really affects your body. My husband’s coming after me, he’s got guns.

I made a decision to take her to the hospital. I know the ER has social workers, security and people that can help her. That she will be safe there for hours. Hopefully she can just sit in this ER and be safe and he won’t know where she is until things can get settled. Then at least we know she’s safe for a while.

Joyce: The hospital’s probably the best thing that could have happened, because I had not received any treatment for my neck for a couple of weeks because I didn’t dare. They were extremely kind. They asked a lot of good questions. It was probably the least stressful experience I’ve had with a doctor, which is bizarre. They didn’t pressure me for anything, hey just asked me questions and they said, this is what we’re going to do.

They got me in and scanned to make sure there weren’t any severe injuries. I told them what happened. The social worker came in. Eventually a couple of police officers came in as well. They were all really good, matter of fact and extremely patient.

Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body: Safety ConcernsJoyce: I was an absolute mess. Meanwhile, Anne was coordinating with my dad to make sure that he was safe. Obviously, I’m worried about my safety, I’m also worried about my family’s safety.

Anne: She has reconnected with friends. We’ve been hanging out now that she’s my neighbor. We’ve been going to the movies. She came to my daughter’s play last night. She’s amazing. At the time I met her, she had been isolated and in the fog. The nurse asked her who is this? While pointing to me. She cried and the nurse said is this your friend? Joyce just nodded.

Then, the nurse said, is she your best friend? Joyce said, yes! I thought, I am! I am her best friend right now, I am also her only friend right now. She’s been so isolated. The emotion of that moment and knowing that you didn’t have anyone else except for your family. I had to leave because my son had a band trip. I was a chaperone.

The bus was leaving. I called a friend, Leah Moses, who is such a dear friend of mine, can you get to the hospital? I can’t leave Joyce by herself. Thank goodness Leah could go. I left Joyce at the hospital. Before I went home, I drove past Joyce’s dad’s house. I’d just seem like a soccer mom driving by in a minivan. Guess who’s in the driveway. Two of our city police with her dad.

Police InterventionAnne: She didn’t have a protective order, we couldn’t get one. Her husband is on speakerphone with our city police. This police officer says to her husband, you are not welcome in our city. If you come here, we will arrest you. Do not come. Her husband responded, oh, really? Can you tell me what’s going on? This doesn’t sound like Joyce. Maybe she’s having a mental health crisis.

I thought, he’s a full-on abuser. This is exactly what they sound like. This is what emotional and psychological abuse sounds like. He sounded nice and calm. Then he said stuff about your dad. I’ll call him Bob. Is Bob okay? Is his health okay? I don’t think he would be like this. He’s always welcomed me to his home before. What’s going on? I’m so confused.

Then the officer said, “You are not welcome here. You will be arrested. Do not come, and hung up.”

Immediately after, your husband texted your dad, and your dad pulled out his phone. There’s a text saying, “Hey, Bob, are you doing okay? What’s happened? I’m confused. Why are the police calling me?” I’m thinking, you know full well why they’re calling you. I was thinking block him, don’t talk to him. I said if he shows up, and the police are nodding their heads, do not talk to him. Don’t open the door.

The police were amazing. I was so grateful that they did that and your dad felt better. A protective order is just a piece of paper, but with it you can call on the police. The police telling your husband, “You’re not welcome here.” Is just as effective as a protective order.

Support & Gratitude Affects Your BodyJoyce: Your friend was amazing, I just want to say thank you to her.

Anne: Yeah, she’s amazing.

Joyce: To come help someone out when you’ve been through that, I can’t even imagine. I was very lucky that day. I was at the hospital for several hours. Eventually they discharged me. I called my sister and she was able to come get me. The rest of the day, I was just a mess. I was scared. To some extent angry at myself, which I’m only saying because I think that is probably common.

I was angry that I couldn’t find a way to get out without a fuss, I felt so guilty for all of the people who had been put out by the situation. I felt like I should have been able to handle it. But the truth is, I couldn’t. If I could have left, I would have. I really did have no way of getting out. There were cameras all over our home. As you said, we knew he left because I got an alert telling me. I don’t think I could have gone out any other way. It had just affected my body too much.

Anne: He also would not have been surprised because you didn’t even know.

Joyce: No this was not the plan. I was starting to think oh, I need a plan, but I definitely didn’t have a plan. I now have a protective order. The Victim Advocate has been amazing. An officer went to my spouse’s house, asked him about the incident, and I think he still must have thought he didn’t do anything wrong.

Consequences & Emotional Abuse HelpHe told them exactly the same thing I told them, and that’s an assault. He’s being charged with assault, and because of that, the courts put in place a protective order. Which has helped me relax a little bit. All the stress affects your body so much one day I’ll be able to fully relax. That day is not here yet, I’m just trying to take everything as it comes. I am so grateful to have met you. Thank you for being there.

Anne: Thank you. You didn’t put anybody out. I’m just grateful I was there to help you. The abuse had affected your body so much. I mean, that is serious stuff. To have the honor of helping you. Thank you. I think everyone felt that way. It was an honor to assist you in your time of need, you cannot do this alone.

For women listening who may be making steps toward emotional safety using emotional safety strategies, but intend to remain married. If you don’t have anyone, our BTR Group Sessions are awesome. Reaching out for help is also a way to really realize if it is abuse.

If you’re wondering, is this abuse? Is it not? Being educated about abuse does not create abuse out of thin air. It helps you realize whether or not the thing that’s happening is abuse. The abuser does not want you to find out that it’s not you, it’s him.

How Emotional Abuse Affected Joyce PhysicallyAnne: The title of this episode is How Emotional Abuse Affects Your Body. Can you talk about how abuse affects your body when you were going through it and you didn’t even know? Then about how abuse affects your body now during the recovery from these emotional injuries? I say emotional and psychological injuries because although her neck was injured, you had many emotional and psychological injuries as well.

Joyce: The neck injury I could not excuse or reconcile in any way, shape, or form. It had taken a turn into physical violence. I don’t think you will come back from that.

Anne: Right. This is seven years in, this isn’t like the first few months into the relationship.

Joyce: It took a turn that I was not expecting. Throughout the marriage, the psychological, emotional, and financial abuse was pretty severe. I’m gonna be dealing with that for a while. Longer than I’m dealing with the neck injury. My body was telling me something was wrong before I let myself accept that on a mental level.

Abuse affects your body in so many ways, my hair was coming out in chunks whenever I washed my hair, just like handfuls of hair would come out. I talked to my doctor about it. She said, Oh, it’s probably stress. Great. Awesome. I don’t know how to fix that. My nails, like my middle fingernails, split constantly no matter what I did.

I was exhausted, constantly exhausted. My spouse put a lot of shame and guilt on me for us not being at our optimum health. I am in worse physical shape now than when we got married. Part of that was he wouldn’t let me go to the gym. I had restrictions and didn’t have my normal avenues of being healthy.

Health and Recovery After Abuse Affects Your BodyJoyce: My body was just breaking down under the psychological, emotional, and financial abuse. I’ve got a heart arrhythmia which is getting better. My dog, he was my dog before we got married, is now with me. He was diagnosed with a heart murmur a couple years ago, and they don’t really know what caused it. My dog had a vet checkup about a week ago, it’s gone. He doesn’t have it anymore.

He was subjected to emotional abuse as well. I’m just really grateful he’s out of there. Any living being in that household was suffering. They don’t have any other explanation for why his murmur is gone, but it’s gone. Abuse effects your body as an animal as well. They said he’s in good health. I wasn’t paying attention to my health. Sometimes you have to just stop and listen to your body, if it is telling you something is wrong, maybe that is your sign.

Anne: How are your nails now?

Joyce: They’re short, but there’s no crack. Nothing.

Anne: It’s not cracked and you’re not bald.

Joyce: And I’m not bald.

Anne: Have you had your hair fall out lately?

Joyce: No.

Anne: And you’re not as tired?

Joyce: No, I’m not as tired. I’ve lost 15 pounds and my diet is not amazing right now. I have more energy. I am taking my dog on a walk. He’s getting more exercise. I’m getting outside with him. He’s healthier. I’m healthier. The major change in my life is being out of that environment. If my health wasn’t a good enough indicator, his definitely is.

Ongoing Support and GratitudeAnne: I talk to your dad. He went to my daughter’s play last night. He’s helped my daughter with her singing because he’s a choir teacher.

Joyce: He loves doing that. He says my vibe has improved, so much better. The fact that they actually see me, they’ve said, is a huge improvement. People are saying, you look really good. I say, yeah, thanks. I’m not getting torn down every minute of every day.

Anne: Right. When I picked you up at your parents house to go to the domestic violence shelter to try and get the protective order, I think you apologized. I said, I know you’ve been abused. I know that I should not tell you what to do. Apologizing already! You’re not doing anything wrong! She was in this cave of lies.

Joyce: It was bad. He forced me to apologize. I really couldn’t win on any level. As an example, a few weeks ago, I had a breakdown. I realized at 2 a.m. I hadn’t flushed the toilet, I was just petrified for a few minutes. Then I realized, oh wait a minute, I’m not going to get reamed about this. If I was still with my spouse, he would yell at me for being careless and unhygienic.

Then he would remind me every time I went to the bathroom for at least a week to make sure I flushed it. He would occasionally just happen to be in the bathroom to make sure that I was doing it. Just a glimmer of why I was so overly apologetic for what I felt was a problem to other people. He wouldn’t let me clean, and so I felt like being in that house with him affected my body so much.

Overcoming Psychological TraumaAnne: For me, for a year after I was fighting with my ex in my own head. Like I was talking to him. I was having arguments with him in my head, I had to be like, Oh, he’s not here anymore. I don’t have to have an argument with him anymore. It’s this period of time where they haunt you, even though they’re not around. Do you feel like that’s been happening at all?

Joyce: Oh, yeah. It’s not arguments, in my case. It’s, why did you do that? Can’t believe you did that, you know better. Incessant negativity about anything. I find myself trying to preemptively prepare for an argument if traffic is bad and I’m going to be late. I get physically tense and panicky. Abuse affects your body in reliving it as well. I’m trying to remind myself more, you don’t have to do that.

It’s going to be a slow process. I just never want to talk to him or see him again, I really don’t. I hope that this doesn’t happen again. I’m technically round two for him.

Anne: Because that’s probably what happened in his first marriage. By the way, I messaged his first wife on Facebook, I gave her my phone number?

Joyce: I don’t know, but I haven’t heard from her. If she doesn’t want to talk about it, that’s no problem.

Anne: We need to get her on the podcast. .

Joyce: I don’t believe he was honest with me about what happened in that marriage. Things he said about her were not true.

Gratitude & Moving Forward Out of AbuseJoyce: I just want to say thank you for all of the work that you’re doing.

When we first met, you told me that you were grateful for your abuser because BTR wouldn’t have happened without him. I told you that was BS. I do not have the intelligence, fortitude or skill to go out and create an organization that helps women. You do podcasts; you do all of this writing. That is you. It’s not him that comes from you. You are a wonderful, special person who is making a huge difference in the world.

I’m not overstating things when I say that. I think you might have saved my life and I’m so grateful. To people who are listening to this, there’s never a good time. You might feel totally alone and you might be horribly isolated. I speak from experience, but there are people who can help you, don’t give up.

Anne: They will become your best friends.

Joyce: Two steps forward, one step back is still one step forward.

Anne: She now lives in my neighborhood, I’m going to have her back on in six months or a year. To see how things are going. Right now, I’m helping her through the divorce process. I can’t personally help everyone that listens to the podcast for obvious reasons. If you need support, The BTR Coaches are here for you.

Our coaches are online ready to help you in daily group sessions and individual sessions. Joyce, you’re brave, you are strong, you’re incredible, you’re beautiful, you’re an amazing person!

Joyce: Oh, thank you.

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Has your husband betrayed you? You are not alone. Anne and Miss C share insights on healing from betrayal through recognizing betrayal, understanding manipulation, and finding support.

If he’s betrayed you, there are resources available to support you. You are not alone, check out the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session Schedule.

Transcript: If Your Husband Has Betrayed You, You Are Not AloneAnne: Miss C, a member of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community is on today’s episode. She is technically still married, although they’ve been separated for two years. She has two children. One is a teenager and another is a preteen. Let’s start with your story. Talk about how things first started and if you recognized your husband’s abusive behaviors at first.

Miss C: I don’t think that I did recognize his abusive behaviors at first. I think in a way I was the perfect person for his abusive behaviors. I grew up in a home where my father was very detached. He adopted me. My mom and I came as a package deal. There’s a lot of provision, but not a lot of love. My mother is also a very broken person. She grew up in an alcoholic home, a lot of domestic violence.

There were a lot of behaviors and things. I learned, to love people despite it. I didn’t really question if this behavior or these words or any of this stuff was abusive. It was just when I married my husband. I think we were about two years in. We were in the ministry, he was a youth pastor. I had noticed a charge on one of our cards. I asked him, you know what is this? He was just very easy about it.

He said something like, “Oh, it’s just a fraudulent charge. I’ve already called the credit card company. I’m working on getting it refunded.” I assume it’s a charge for porn, yes. I’m not even sure exactly what it was. I’d never seen it before. It is something x rated. I think that was my first instance with it.

Confronting The BetrayalMiss C: Then another one happened. I went to him again. What is this? What’s going on? Do we need to change this card? This time he wasn’t as easy with it. He was a little bit more agitated, a little more ugly about it. My questioning it, I think that was the seed for me then. When I started to realize the doubt, possibly this is not just an error. Maybe there’s something more. He was acting so weird about it.

Maybe he wouldn’t shut down the card. He was like, we don’t need to shut it down. The first time he said it was fraud. We’re just going to take care of this. I think his exact words were, “You just need to get off my case about it.” We were still in the ministry. We lived considerably far away from my family. I didn’t have children at the time and would go home and visit for a week or two at a time.

I had gone to visit and I came back. There was a VHS videotape that I found. Really dates me there. I remember handing it to him, I knew that it was a porn tape because of the name. That’s when it blew up. Unfortunately, that night we were heading to a youth activity.

Public Outbursts & Feeling AloneMiss C: We were fighting all the way to the youth activity. We get there and there’s a youth team that’s waiting to come together in prayer. He and I are fighting. We pull up and he just loses it, jumps out of the car and starts walking down the road.

Anne: That is a really common abusive thing to do. Did you know that? I don’t know if you know that. Jumping out of a car to say, I’m not going to take this anymore. Sort of, I’m not going to participate. It’s a strange form of control that most people aren’t aware happens. I just want to point that out if other women have been like, oh he has jumped out of the car and stomped away.

Miss C: Yeah, it’s a rural area. There isn’t any mistaking that he’s walking down the road. I’m so embarrassed because he’s basically throwing this temper tantrum walking down the road. I’m not gonna tell people what’s going on. The youth leader was like, what’s going on? He knew something had happened, he’s upset. He went and talked to my husband. They came back. I thought I was stuck.

I didn’t know what to do at that point. We’re miles and miles away from support and family. We’re brand new to this ministry, this is our livelihood. He’s supposed to be the leader of the home. What am I supposed to do? There’s so much shame. You definitely don’t want to betray your husband by saying anything to anybody. It didn’t die, it just became this ugly thing between us that slowly deteriorated the ministry and us. I felt so alone.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2DtrwTruth Sinks In Anne: Did you go down the pornography addiction recovery route at all at this time? He needs help, let’s get him some help? Was there any of that? Did you go down that road?

Miss C: Not at first because it was so shocking and not how you picture you’re going into the ministry. You’re in the ministry,. spreading the gospel to teenagers and watching teenagers get saved. I think I just threw myself into the ministry.

Anne: Did you think if we pray enough, if we work on the ministry enough, it’ll just kind of go away?

Miss C: I hoped that he would love the ministry enough to give it up for it. I dove in. This is what we came here for. This is what we’re going to do. I love doing this. You say that you love doing this. We even did a purity conference.

Anne: Did you think, wait a minute, he’s a hypocrite, at all? Did you think if he does it enough, it’ll save him?

Miss C: I think at that point I did still look to him and respect him as my leader. I believed that this was just a struggle. He just needed to dig in. It doesn’t define him, it’s not what it became. No, I don’t know if it became that, or I just opened my eyes more.

Anne: It was that way all the time, and then you realized more what was going on over time maybe?

Miss C: I stopped, for lack of better terms, making excuses for it.

Church Principles Anne: When you say leader, so your faith background is different than mine, can you explain that a little bit? Is that the typical, like, uh, We submit to a man because he’s the head or something like that. Can you explain that for women who might be in a different faith paradigm than you are?

Miss C: Sure. I grew up believing that the man was the head of the household, but not in a misogynistic way. Like he says everything, he does everything and I just got to abide by it. I was taught we were still equal, that we still were responsible for what we brought to the marriage. Ultimately the decisions were by him. I could weigh in, definitely, and did. I was not un-opinionated, but I did grow up with the man being the head of your household.

Anne: Okay, so even though you thought we’re equal, it wasn’t technically equal because you didn’t have equal say?

Miss C: It’s hard to answer that question because I’ve heard this phrase before where the man is the head, the woman’s the neck. We can turn the head any way we want. I do know that my husband absolutely respected the way I thought. There were a lot of times when it came to decisions, he would want me to weigh in, especially relational. You have a better understanding than me. Can you tell me what you think about this? Tell me what you think about that.

I would say that he was very fair in that way. When it came to things like money and things that he was just going to do, he just did them.

Anne: Maybe he just didn’t care about the other things. Who knows?

Pornography Addiction RecoveryAnne: Talk about when you went down the, pornography addiction recovery route for a little while because clearly that did not work. We know that ends. We know the end of this. Let’s talk about once you knew it was a porn thing. How did things go with that?

Miss C: I think we had been married 24 years by the time the divorce is final. I would say we were separated quite a few times throughout our marriage and it all was pornographically related. When we got back together, the longest time that we kind of stayed together, I got pregnant with my son shortly after us getting back together. Bringing kids into the picture changed the picture for me.

Maybe that has a lot to do with growing up in an emotionally abusive home. I had a tolerance for myself, but then you bring an innocent into the picture and I had zero tolerance.

Anne: For the abuse?

Miss C: For any kind of abuse.

Anne: In this case, if you don’t know what’s abuse, maybe the nonsense, you might call it, right?

Miss C: Right. Because I don’t think I start calling it abuse until probably the last five years. that I really actually realized the way he was acting, the way he was treating me and the children was abusive.

Anne: So before you used the word abuse, what word would you use?

Miss C: Addiction. It was his addiction. His addiction.

Anne: Okay. Pornography addiction. Okay.

Alone With Husband’s BetrayalMiss C: Right. Then we were back together and had our son, he was only nine months old, when it reared its ugly head again. I was working overnight at a hotel and the hotel was right across the street from the apartment buildings and they had an especially scary night. My work was in the night.

I went down to the end of the hallway and I was trying to call him. No answer, no answer, no answer. I got home the next morning and the computer was sitting on the coffee table. I flipped it open, he had just closed it, not shut everything off. There it was in my face. I was really angry this time.

I responded in a way I had never responded, I woke him up, plunked the laptop on his stomach. He just was really cocky, said that he left it there on purpose, wanted it to end. He didn’t want it to become an issue. And my response to that was, I took everything that was on the long dresser and threw it at him one at a time.

Anne: He wanted what to end? He wanted his porn use to end. So he left it out there so you could catch him.

Miss C: Yes. That’s what he said.

Anne: Because he can’t stop using by himself. Seeing that, he kind of said, it’s your responsibility to help me stop.

Miss C: I guess so.

Anne: A little bit? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Betrayed And Seeking Help So You Are Not AloneMiss C: I left for a week or so, took my son and left. I told him he had a lot to think about. When I came back, I came with an arsenal. I said, this is what’s going to happen if we’re going to stay together. I’m not going to do this game that we did before. I’m not doing it. The first place he went to was a Celebrate Recovery. He completed it. They do it like in one year. Then the following year, I went to A Heart’s Restored. It was in the same church.

I went through the program, and he had to be gone. He stayed home then. They asked me if I would co-teach the next year, and I co-taught the next year.

Anne: At any point during this time, did they call anything abuse? Or point out the abuse, or say these behaviors are abusive?

Miss C: No, the Hearts Restored group centered on, it’s going to sound terrible, but it wasn’t. It really did center on our relationship with God and the things that were broken within us that allowed these behaviors to continue.

Anne: Kind of a codependent model a little bit?

Miss C: Maybe, because what I did actually work out was a lot of stuff in my past. My grandmother dying from alcoholism. How alcoholism affected my parents, my mother, my stepfathers, it’s connected. There was actually a lot of freedom for me gained from those things.

Anne: You found it to be helpful for your own personal. improvement in your own personal healing, even if it didn’t point out the abuse at the time.

Miss C: Right.

Alone, Betrayed & AngryMiss C: He had fallen again. This time, instead of going to a celebrate recovery, because he was just, no I’m not going to do that again.

Miss C: He started meeting with a pastor for an accountability.

Anne: Okay for his “porn addiction.” Did this pastor point out to you that this was abuse at all or was abuse ever mentioned during this time?

Miss C: No, because unfortunately this pastor had his own hidden closet agenda. He actually was In some of his own personal sins in regards to something along the same lines.

That also came out within a year or two of this. I remember the first meeting we had with him. We just talked about why we were here and what we were hoping for, for counseling. He sat back and he leaned back in his chair and he said, Missy, this is nothing new under the sun.

This is very common, and I just remember immediately just feeling hot, and pretty much everything he said after that, I don’t even remember. We got out to the car, and I remember my husband looking at me and saying, Go ahead, I know you’re mad. I said, It’s not anything new, it’s not that big of a deal, but it is to me.

This is not right. He did counsel with him for a while, and I don’t remember anything beneficial ever coming out of that. And so then the next thing was, Covenant Eyes.

Feeling Alone & ResponsibleMiss C: Covenant Eyes entered our story. The biggest mistake that I made with Covenant Eyes was I became his accountability partner. Not good. That just became a cat and mouse game. Something would pop up in a report and he would blame it on spam or phishing. He opened up his email and it’s some ad on the side that’s triggering it.

It’s just constant. It was just a game. I can’t tell you how many times we went from flip phone to smart phone to flip phone to smart phone because he would get exhausted with the flip phone and say he’s fine. Then he went to a smartphone and he would fall and, seriously, we must have owned 10. It’s just disgusting how much money we probably threw away.

Miss C: The last and final one we went to was Purity Boot Camp. It was at another church. He finished the boot camp, graduated, went to the next level of the boot camp. It was while he was at this boot camp that everything just fell completely apart.

Anne: During this pornography addiction recovery period of time, can you talk about what you did to try and establish safety and peace? Talk about during that time, how you’re, I’m sure making this effort, right, to love and serve and forgive and support him and whatever you need to do to help him with his addiction.

Nothing Is Working, You Are All AloneAnne: When do you start kind of realizing this is not working? Or maybe you don’t, maybe you don’t realize it until it does fall apart. I don’t know. Talk about that.

Miss C: I think it was a slow process. It erodes. I think it’s probably the best way to describe it. It erodes. It didn’t erode my faith in God, it eroded my faith in him.

I think it wasn’t necessarily the porn that did it, it was the lies that it takes to keep the porn alive. There’s a lot of lies, financial lies. Where were you, lies. The bus was “always late”, or traffic was always super heavy. He’d get home really late, hour, hour and a half past time.

That’s because he would pull over and watch porn. I don’t think I had peace.

Anne: Maybe peace is around the corner. If we go to this camp, maybe we’ll have peace. If we pray more, maybe we’ll have peace. Was it sort of that kind of place?

Miss C: I think for a long time, it was this, we’re in this together, you’ve got this, let’s pray, let’s make sure that we’re being careful about what’s going to be on TV.

We downloaded apps like Common Sense Media that would take things out, swear words and scenes and as long as we kept your eye on the prize. A lot of my effort went into that, one of the faults that I realized I started doing was I got in the Holy Spirit’s way.

Trying To Help & Feeling AloneMiss C: As long as I created this perfect environment for him, you know, sun, moon, and stars, everything risen and aligned. Then he wouldn’t be stressed because that was one of the things he said. I don’t go look at porn because I want to look at these women. Porn started when I was 17 and it became this salve or this balm for rejection.

Anytime I feel rejected or stressed in my life, porn won’t reject me. I’m going to go to it. I thought if I created this environment of perfection, then he wouldn’t do that. That’s why I say, I don’t think if I had peace, I was just constantly like running and keeping everything perfect and straight.

Anne: I view those reasons why they use porn, not as an actual reason, but as a way to manipulate us to make us feel sorry for them. There could be someone else who didn’t have peace as a kid and they didn’t look at porn. They don’t give you some sob story. You know what I mean? Now it’s, wow, I did not realize all the ways he elicited my compassion were not legitimate. It was actually him manipulating me into managing him and to feel sorry for him and not hold him accountable.

And it’s hard to recognize, to admit to ourselves, wow, we played into that manipulation rather than setting boundaries.

Miss C: Absolutely. There were so many times that I would feel this compassion. He would be standing there, you know, talking about himself. What came on board in the midst of all this was a mental illness diagnosis.

Anne: Okay.

Feeling Sorry For HimMiss C: So in the midst of all this came a suicide attempt, then several weeks at hospital for therapies and a diagnosis and medication.

Anne: Okay, this is also making you feel sorry for him, I’m sure.

Miss C: Yes. He’s mentally ill. This is why he struggles. He’s weak. He needs me to step up to the plate. I’m going to have to, take on some of the stresses. Help with some of the finances and this kind of stuff. Keep the kids quiet. Don’t let them be too rowdy when he gets home from work. He needs things to be quiet. He doesn’t like things to be out of control or whatever. I didn’t have peace until I left.

Anne: Let’s talk about when things fall apart. You don’t recognize it’s abuse. You’re just doing the best you can. not feeling peace, but trying to get to safety. You’re trying to get help.

Then what happens when things fall apart? I’m guessing even when they fell apart, you didn’t exactly realize this is an abusive relationship, even in that moment. Let’s talk about how you get to that point where you recognize he’s an abuser. Start with the falling apart and then how you came to recognize it.

Miss C: We had separated the first time with children. We had just gotten into a fight again about the pornography. There were just phenomenal, colossal lies. There were points where I would catch him in the act of something. I would focus on making him pay. Stand up and be accountable for what he had said or done, within this lie.

Lies & BlameMiss C: He would present evidence to the contrary, but then make me feel really bad. Like, are we going to struggle with this our entire life? I mean, for example, he had gone to a video store, rented some videos when I was gone. I saw the charge, asked about it. Why did he go to video store? We can rent movies on TV. Why’d you have to go to video store? He was like, I just wanted to get some Westerns. They remind me of my dad. I called the video store. Can I get a copy of this receipt?

No, we don’t do that. I called him back and I said, I need proof. You know where we’re at. I need proof that you’re not lying. He went to the video store. He came back with a handwritten receipt. I called, I said, I need to know. He gets me on the speakerphone with the company, the video store. The guy answers and he said, I just came in and got a paper receipt from you. Can you explain to my wife that you can’t send receipts or you can’t do receipts over the phone or anything like that?

He’s like, Yeah, ma’am, we can’t do any, we can’t do any of that. What I sent is what we got. I’m sitting there. He hangs up and he turns to me. Kids are crawling around us. Are we going to struggle with this our entire life? Are you just not ever going to trust me? I started crying. I felt bad. Am I so horrible that I can’t even trust him for the smallest thing? Am I gonna struggle?

Using Repentance To ManipulateMiss C: I found out that was a lie. He came clean with it and let me cry. He let me apologize to him, and they asked him to forgive me with the children crawling around us. But he knew it was a lie, and he forgave me.

Anne: That’s evil.

Miss C: It is evil. So things like that kept happening and I finally had enough and we got into a just a giant fight about it. He found a roommate and left us just before Christmas. Just left.

I didn’t even know what to do. He cut us off financially because he had everything in his name and just left us. About, I would say, two months after he left he started realizing that, “I should have done this.” He stepped back in a few months and came to one of the visits with the kids. He claimed to have this Jesus moment and cried and begged my son to forgive him, begged me to forgive him, and promised that he was gonna do everything that he’s supposed to do. He wanted to come back home.

I said no. You don’t just get to come in here and say all the things you need to say and come back home. I’m gonna have to see real proof. He reinstalled Covenant Eyes and found two accountability partners. He went back to his group and was all in and I bought it.

Misapplied Christian PrinciplesMiss C: I didn’t want the kids to grow up without a dad and he was showing repentance. I knew it was my place then to forgive and restore and step back in, step back up to the plate. We got back together and four months later. It was porn, again.

Anne: How do you feel about those sort of misapplied Christian principles forgiveness and love, and what do you wish you knew about those principles that was misapplied? Misapplied in this scenario that you didn’t know at the time?

Miss C: I think one of the strongest ones that I do know is when this all blew up, and I just had my moments of anger and just having to throw things against the wall. One of the things that I was most angry with was, and here I’m just a good little Christian girl taking it. Feeling like I should take it because for better or for worse. I’m supposed to stand by him. This is the covenant that I made. It’s almost, I don’t know, self harming. It’s like, I chose him, so I have to put up with the abuse.

Anne: When do you start calling it abuse? When do you recognize that, wait a minute, all this porn, all these lies, all this gaslighting, This has not been, I mean, sure, he’s probably addicted to pornography, right? Sure, he’s addicted to these things, but this isn’t an addiction issue. This is an abuse issue. I have an abuser on my hands. When do you start recognizing, whoa, I’ve been looking at this through the wrong lens?

Miss C: I think it did start to turn when he had that come to Jesus moment, supposedly, and how quickly he turned on and off his Jesus.

God Is There, You Are Not AloneAnne: You start recognizing, wait a minute, this is grooming. This is not sincere repentance.

Miss C: I remember saying one day when we had gone and had communion. I remember sitting there in communion, when I have communion it’s me and God. I’m just thinking and asking the Lord to help me, to remind me of things that I should repent of, just me and God. I don’t open my eyes. I don’t pay attention to what anybody else is doing. It’s just me. This moment I remember opening my eyes and looking at him.

He’s not, his head’s not even bowed, not even in the moment. He’s holding the cup. I remember asking him later, I said, what does communion mean to you? What does that symbolize to you? I said, do you realize that in that moment watching you not participate in communion, I realized in the 20 some years that we’ve been together that I’ve never seen you fall on your face.

Anne: When you say fall on your face, what do you mean by that?

Miss C: It’s an act of submission. I’d never seen it.

Anne: Do you mean like completely totally submit himself to God’s will?

Miss C: Not in our home. Not sometimes they’ll have altar calls. I just had not seen a genuine call. He got really mad when I said that, but it was things like that. Those were the evidences.

BTR: You Are Not AloneMiss C: I started to turn my head away from what was actually happening and watching all of the things he wasn’t saying. Those were the things that I realized in the moments when he would make me cry. He would get very ugly. He would sit there and tell me he liked to make me cry. It made him feel powerful. I would tell him, that’s really sick that you’re saying that. He didn’t want to be made to feel ugly that way, so if I cried, he would just leave.

He would leave the room. It started to become things like that. I started actually looking up, what is it? What does this mean? Why would someone treat you like this? I stumbled across Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I finally said to myself “You are not alone.”

Anne: We see the most progress with women healing when they listen to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast every week, when they attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions as needed, and when they take some space to apply the things they’ve learned outside of group. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? What happened that made that possible for you?

Miss C: I think like anybody, when you’re going through something, you’re looking for help. You’re looking for anything to guide you to the next step, because it’s all so confusing. There’s so much shame connected with it. It’s not, how do I make spaghetti sauce with friends or anything like that. You go incognito and do searches. I looked online and typed in different things. There were multiple helps out there, books.

You Are Not AloneI happened to come across a video for a course that talked about pornography and trauma. It was the first time I had ever seen those two words put together. It was that word that actually drew me in to Betrayal Trauma Recovery No one else said that. Recognized, acknowledged that to go through this and to repeatedly go through it, basically almost alone, is traumatic.

Miss C: You’re constantly questioned how you feel as a woman, as a mother, as a wife. It hits you on every level. I remember, it’s been a while, but remember watching the first two or three episodes. I remember feeling yes, yes, it acknowledged the pain, the shame and the betrayal. Finally feeling like, “You are not alone!” It acknowledged the true trauma of it too. To put the word trauma to it really opens you up and speaks of a pain that goes beyond what anybody has ever described before.

It’s almost like oh, well your spouse is looking at other women and it’s harmless. At least he’s, It’s coming home to you and it almost belittles it. It was so refreshing to have someone, for once, put the word to the pain that I already felt.

Anne: At that time, did you start listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast?

Miss C: You know, I wish I could pinpoint exactly. It was several things. I remember delving into stories and reading, and I can’t remember if I actually clicked on a podcast, but I do remember there were stories that were told.

Recognizing AbuseAnne: All of our podcast episodes are transcribed so that you can either listen to them on Apple podcasts, listen from our website or read them from our website. For people who would prefer to read, they’re there. After finding us, you started thinking about the word abuse. Was Betrayal Trauma Recovery also your first introduction to considering that what you had been experiencing was abusive?

Miss C: Yeah, I think to actually hear it put that way, it’s also along the same lines as the trauma. It almost goes hand in hand. It helps you to realize that this is something that is happening to you and something that hurts you. I think we endure it, for better or for worse, so this falls under the worse part. You don’t really categorize it as abuse because who wants to admit, I’m abused, who wants to feel that way or think that way, or even accept the title.

Anne: Once you start considering that you’re abused and things are falling apart for you, what happens now?

Miss C: I think actually the separation is what started me realizing that this was abusive. Once you actually step outside of looking at it. This is my bed. I need to sleep in it. You step outside of it and you realize that you’re being abused. You’re able to recognize all that follows from being abused and how it affects you. How it affects your children because of the decisions you make to make it work.

Waking Up To Being AloneI definitely know that as I started waking up to the truth of what was going on, instead of it being, okay, I’m just going to stand by my man, I’m going to pray for him, I’m going to be that help that I’m supposed to be. To realizing I’m a being abused by this person. Through me, he’s also abusing our children because it’s giving a false narrative to what marriage is as God intended it to be.

Anne: Do you think that you would have been able to recognize the extent of the abusive behaviors had you not separated?

Miss C: No, absolutely not.

Anne: Talk about why. I agree. After my ex got arrested, I had this period of no contact, that was when everything became very clear to me. I thought, if I wouldn’t have had that separation time, I don’t know if I ever would have recognized it. Will you talk about that for yourself? And how that period of separation helped you kind of come out of that fog?

Miss C: Well, I think it’s probably indicative of all abuse victims. When you are in the abuse, you go into survival mode. You do what is necessary for the love of your family, your home, your children to make peace. In making that peace, you absorb the abuse, you take it. There isn’t healing. You can’t even look at healing or even look at what’s really happening to you when you’re just surviving.

Manipulative ApologiesAnne: Yeah. I think the other thing is when you’re being abused, you can’t see that you’re being abused. It’s kind of a catch twenty two, right? Because if they’re kind to you in a moment of grooming and they’re nice and they say they love you. That does not feel like abuse. That feels pretty good. It doesn’t feel like grooming at the time. It is grooming, but you don’t recognize it as part of the abuse.

Anne: You think, Oh, he’s Jekyll and Hyde. You don’t realize. The good guy is actually still the bad guy. Does that make sense?

Miss C: Oh, absolutely. For you to say the phrase Jekyll and Hyde, I can’t even tell you how many times I use that phrase when I would talk to my friends or family about what would go on. They would see him at church or in social situations. He was so helpful and so like loving towards me and the kids. I would say that many times. I’m like, that’s, you know, Jekyll or Hyde. I don’t know which one’s the evil one. I don’t know.

That is many times how I described it, and what you said too, about not being able to recognize the abuse. I think when you’re being told by this person, oh I’m so sorry, I love you, I don’t mean to hurt you, I’ll do better next time, I recognize this isn’t good and I’m not easy to live with. Those were the things that I was told. That kind of almost puts it on me. When it’s so manipulative to tell somebody, I know I’m not easy to live with, you’re so loving, kind, forgiving and encouraging.

Grooming & BetrayalIt puts it back on you. I need to be more loving. I need to be more encouraging and you get to be a monster.

Anne: It’s also very misogynistic because the wife is to sacrifice her happiness, her needs, her interests, her whatever, in order to make sure that he’s a decent person. That’s just crazy. So what happens next?

Anne: I’m assuming, tell me if I’m wrong here, that he starts to groom again while you’re Separated here because we see one of two things when women set a boundary. They separate and they get one of two things. They start grooming. Oh, I’m gonna be better. I’m, sorry I’ll get into a program, you know something like that. Or they just literally give up and abandon their family and don’t try to do anything. I’m guessing it was one of those two things. Maybe I’m wrong. I can’t wait to hear.

Miss C: I actually had a mixture of the two at first. It was abandonment in finances and it was abandonment in just spending time with the kids. I was spinning my wheels like, okay, we need to make sure we get together and the kids want to see you.

It would be him who, you know, he had headaches, stomachache, he was tired. The week was too long and you know, the kids were desperate to want to connect with him. And then when he would call to talk to them. He would call maybe once a month and I would mention something to him. Hey, you know, like probably should call the kids like every other day.

Relationships With ChildrenMiss C: Like you’re not here. He said, he actually had audacity to say that he doesn’t like calling them because they barely seem interested in talking to him.

Anne: Because it was all about him. Is that what you’re saying?

Miss C: Right. Yeah.

Anne: Oh, yeah. Because they’re not asking him about how his day was.

Miss C: Right. He said they don’t talk to me, they don’t answer my questions, they don’t seem interested in talking to me. It just feels like a waste of my time. I remember I came back with, this isn’t about you, you’re supposed to be asking them about their day, how they’re doing, what’s going on, this isn’t supposed to be fulfilling for you. It’s you showing that you’re interested in their life as a father, and you’re trying to be there in any way you can.

Anne: Yeah, they don’t have the capacity to understand that, I don’t think.

Miss C: No, then he would vacillate between the two. I didn’t know which one I was going to get, to be honest. There would be times when, as long as he didn’t feel slated by me in any way. Things were fine and child support would come and helping with shoes and school and this kind of stuff would come.

I stepped on his toes wrong and then he just would go. Turn like a spoiled child and not speak to me and not help with money. It was continuously abusive and manipulative, even though we were separated.

Anne: Post separation abuse is really common. I wouldn’t say it’s really common, I’d say it’s the norm.

Divorce Decision & Feeling AloneAnne: A lot of people will say, all you need to do when you have an abuser is to get divorced. They don’t realize that there is ongoing abuse even after divorce or during a separation. That’s very difficult.

When did you make the decision that you were going to get divorced?

How did you make that decision, right? Because that’s a very difficult decision for a Christian woman who has been trying to “help her husband” for all these years. Let’s talk about all those factors.

Miss C: I didn’t come by it easy. That’s absolutely for sure. I think it probably, we separated twice, was from the point that I first separated to the point that I knew that I was done was about three years. There was quite a bit of just being so unsure. One of the things that I brought up numerous times with different people that I took counsel with was that I don’t want to be displeasing to God. I know that I’ve made this covenant.

What do I do with this covenant, this promise that I made? Oh, that just tore me up.

Anne: Was there a way that you resolved that? How are you feeling about that now?

Miss C: Yeah, well, my story is a little bit different in the fact that it just didn’t end with him constantly being abusive with porn and being narcissistic or anything like that. My story ends with, at the time that I found this out, we had already been separated for a solid year, but I definitely was on the path to divorce.

Husband’s Behavior A NightmareMiss C: I will admit pre finding out what I found out, we had made the decision between us because we didn’t want to drag the kids through a court process. We didn’t want to bring the government into our life and our children’s lives. We had decided to stay separated until the kids were of age and then divorce then. I figured we could make this work between us, figure out finances between us.

I really think that 99 percent of that was going to be me giving a lot, out of love for my kids. He really was a nightmare. I mean, there were months when we just decided not to do visitation because he would have mental meltdowns and mental temper tantrums.

You know he didn’t want to come to church and the kids wanted him at church. It was always something with him. He was such a child. I dreaded. Visitation weekends because I knew I would just have to put up with him until it was over and there after it was over I always had a headache. I wouldn’t allow him to come to our home because the home that we had before we separated was just not right. The atmosphere was not right and I knew it was him.

I wanted a space where the children were secure and safe and that being our home. I’d never allowed him to come to our home. All of our visitations were at a restaurant or movie or park or something like that.

When I Recognized, You Are Not AloneAnn: If you could go back in time, do you feel like that? Let’s not involve people, let’s just try to settle this between ourselves was a bad idea? Would you do that again? Or were you like it was okay. It turned out okay, or were you like man, I should have just gone for it back then. What are you thinking about that now?

Miss C: I will say there’s a lot of elements of bringing in help that I had a lot of preconceived ideas about.

Anne: Talk about that.

Miss C: I really believed CPS was evil, to be honest.

Anne: For our listeners who don’t know, she’s talking about Child Protective Services, which is a government agency. That is supposed to protect kids, but we have heard some horror stories. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about.

Miss C: Right, I really believed that. I’m going to invite the bad guy in and this is going to be horrible. Of course I was mortified and I didn’t ask for them. Once we proceeded, the way we had to proceed, she was assigned to me. There were a lot of things that I’m now looking back at where I see they happened the way they had to happen. I can’t sing her praises enough. She has been as close to a friend as she can be because of her professional position.

Anne: So you went from thinking that CPS was evil and you were terrified of them to being very grateful for their help.

Miss C: Absolutely, she jumped right in and I mean, she knew the games almost like the back of her hand. She had resources available to alleviate those places and offered them before I asked for them.

Fear Of Government Agencies Kept Me AloneAnne: Why do you think victims are so afraid to get help from the police, for example, or from a government agency, CPS, maybe a domestic violence shelter, or maybe other various and sundry agencies. Why do you think victims are so afraid?

Miss C: To be totally brutally honest, I really believe it’s because we definitely don’t feel like the government has your back if you are a believer.

Anne: I’m a believer and I have never thought that. That’s why I’m asking. I’ve been a believer my whole life and I’ve always been very pro-government. I don’t know if I’d say pro-government, but I’ve always thought, I can call the police. The police will help me. I can go to this agency, this agency will help me. For me, I did not have that experience. From your experience, that’s what you’re saying. Growing up you thought, this isn’t a good idea. They’re not going to help me.

Miss C: I think to understand where I come from in that capacity, my parents did foster care my entire life from the time I was 13, all the way up. We had a lot of, social workers coming in and out of our home. A lot of experience, of course, listening to your parents and dealing with the social workers. To be really honest, we’d never had a really great experience with social workers.

Then my only experience with CPS workers were because of relatives that struggled with addictions and had children taken from them. That’s on the complete opposite end from where I was coming. In a way it was probably a little bit naive, thinking that they’re just going to make things harder.

Civil Court: You Are Not AloneMiss C: So I actually took my husband to civil court for two purposes. One was to gain physical and legal custody of my kids. The other was to impose child support. I remember when I was appointed a guardian ad litem for the kids, because she was going to interview us and talk to us, them separately, then me and then my ex. She was going to give recommendations to the court in regards to the civil case. I remember also feeling fear.

Oh my goodness, like, can I be who I am? Can I speak freely of my faith? Will she deem my faith as crazy and side with my ex? Because I know there are some people that don’t believe in a deity. Of course I struggled with that. Again, she ended up being wonderful.

Anne: That did not end up being the case.

Miss C: Not even close.

Anne: That being said, I’ve never been afraid, but I have heard some horror stories. Like a guardian ad litem who made it worse or a custody evaluator. I have heard horror stories, but I’ve also heard really great stories. I think it feels like a crapshoot.

Husband’s Betrayal & Abuse Anne: I’m like, pray, pray, pray, right? For God to be with your lawyer, to get the right guardian ad litem, to get the right custody evaluator. Let God be the warrior because the family court system is really tricky.

Miss C: It is tricky and so far I feel blessed in that capacity.

Anne: That’s so great. Part of what I’m wondering, and the reason why I’m bringing this up, is this fear of outside help. I’m wondering if it’s part of the way that the abusers isolate their victims to say the outside world, perhaps the government, perhaps agencies, perhaps whatever is evil and they’re scary and you don’t want to get help from them.

You don’t have anywhere to go. Do you think that was part of it a little bit?

Miss C: Oh, absolutely. I remember when we would talk about getting a divorce, we would talk about a divorce and he would bring up stuff like that. He wanted me to be alone. They’re going to pull our kids in one direction and another direction. If I dare bring up anything about the pornography, they’re going to label him a pervert and like just all these different things.

Right away, of course, if you bring anything up that has any impact on the kids, that’s going to resonate with me. Being afraid of asking them for help, I wasn’t afraid when we had to go to the police. That was a knee jerk reaction, I knew it was going to be okay when I talked to them.

Pending Situations & EncouragementAnne: Miss C has some situations that she can’t talk about right now because they’re pending. If you’re thinking, is there something going on that we didn’t hear about or that we don’t know, the answer to that is yes. We can’t talk about it now.

Miss C: Well, I think if anything I probably would want to talk about is that if you are sitting on that cusp and you definitely don’t know which way to turn, you feel all alone. You feel full of shame because your husband has repeatedly abused you with porn, that you are not alone.

That there are other women out there, there are people who do care, and you don’t have to sit in the dark by yourself. More than anything, in the darkest times that I had, it may sound cliche, and it may sound hard, and it may feel weird in the beginning but you have a father. You don’t have to talk in thees and thous, and you don’t have to have all the right words to say. He is your Father, you can go to him, tell him how awful this is, how much it hurts you, and how much you need him.

Faith & MedicationsMiss C: One of the verses that I clung to many, many times was he heals the brokenhearted and he binds up their wounds. I can’t tell you how many times I prayed and I asked him to heal this part of me that was broken. Heal the part of me that sees myself as a failure, that feels ugly and unattractive. Jealous of these women who get their attention and he looks at them in a way that he doesn’t look at you.

You can ask your Father to help you heal that part, to bind up the wound that is caused from that. Whether you’ll choose to admit it or not, every time that they take you there. Whether you find out or whether you don’t, or you just suspect something is wrong. Your Father’s there and He can hear those and He can bind them. He can pull you close and you are not alone. You are not alone.

Anne: I appreciate you saying that there have been so many times where I have cried and I haven’t been able to stop crying. You’ve probably had that experience too, right? Currently speaking, maybe my listeners have heard it in my voice lately, but I’m on Lexapro. It’s an anti-anxiety, anti-depressant medication. I’m a little less emotional lately, so I don’t tear up at all when I’m on this. Normally, I’d be like, I know how you feel.

Feeling Alone & GriefI’m the same. I felt that way too. Right now, because of the medication that I’m on, I can’t cry. I remember when I would cry and cry, could not stop, go in my closet, lay in my bed and my pillow would be soaking wet. I remember not being able to feel comfort from the Spirit and praying, Heavenly Father, please help me.

Please send someone to help me. Feeling this black void of nothingness. I kept praying, reading my scriptures, obeying the commandments and believing. Even though I believe, help Thou my unbelief sort of thing. The fog did move eventually.

Miss C: You know what that is though? Those are layers of grief. That’s why they feel that way. It’s just layers upon layers of grief. You’re not going to feel anything while those layers fall off except grief. It’s a part of the healing process. We mistakenly think God is not near. It’s not that’s not true. It’s grief. You are not alone.

Anne: I haven’t thought of it that way before. That is a good point. I do know, even though I didn’t know to call it grief, that the only way was through it, you couldn’t avoid it. You couldn’t get around it. You could watch TV and you could eat popcorn, which helped, but really there wasn’t anything that could make it go away.

Miss C: No, because all of those are distractions. Our kids can distract us. Our friends can distract us. The TV can distract us. Our phone can distract us. But you take all of those away. Everybody goes to bed. TV gets turned off, there’s nothing on your phone that you haven’t looked at a bazillion times, and then you’re in the dark and you’re alone.

Medication & AnxietyAnne: Yes, and it is awful. With me, when things have been really difficult, it’s so stressful. Medication has helped. I don’t have anything clinical going on. The year that it was so stressful, I was on medication. I have something going on right now. It’s also really stressful. When I talk about it with my doctor, under doctor’s supervision, decided to go back on an anti anxiety medication.

It’s a catch twenty two for me because I still can feel emotion. It’s not as deeply, so I’m very like content and happy and calm most of the time, which is great. There’s not that level of, I don’t know, depth of gratitude that I have felt in the past and emotion. As soon as I make it through this, I’m going to go back off.

Miss C: I felt the same way. Like it, was actually really explained pretty well to me, is that when you go through years and years of abuse. Your body learns to run on this flight or fight process, constantly. Then when you have peace, like I did when I finally moved away and had my own space, the peace was just as painful because now my body is still going fight or flight. I would have anxiety attacks. I would pull up to church and be unable to get out of the car.

Anxiety, I Just Felt So AloneMiss C: My kids would go running in. They had their classes. They were excited. I would sit in my car and cry. My family would come out just concerned and I couldn’t tell them anything except this is anxiety. I’m having a full on anxiety attack and I can’t stop this.

I have to just go through this and it was so hard because I could tell they look at you like you’re a little bit nuts, like they’re concerned about you. You’re losing it. I’m concerned, but unless you’ve been on this side of an anxiety attack, you can’t understand, it’s such an out of body experience too.

Anne: Did you ever take or consider anxiety meds?

Miss C: It’s a plant based supplement. It absolutely helps. Yes.

Anne: For us, it’s like, whatever helps. There was a time when I decided I’m not where I was a couple of years ago when I was going through a difficult time. I mean, you, my listeners have heard me go in and out of difficult times this whole time and I thought, should I go back on medication? I thought, no, I shouldn’t right now. Right now I need to feel this. This is the time where I need to experience this. This recent one, I definitely was nope, I need to go back on it.

There’s no judgment here. It’s, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. Self care, so that you can take care of your children, your job, your life, and being gentle with ourselves to make sure that we are healthy. It’s super important when we’re going through this. God loves us will guide and direct you.

Victims, You Are Not AloneMiss C: Yeah, I definitely think that going along with being gentle with yourself about medication is to be brave enough not necessarily to physically walk away. Because, I don’t know, you might get mad and walk away. In this season you’re gonna be hit with loads of advice on how to handle it, how to walk it, how to process it and how it affects your kids. I remember the one phraseology which to this day will set me on fire is to not be a victim and don’t teach your children to be a victim.

You remember that character where he’s got flame shooting out of the top of his head? That sets me on fire because to me, whether you like to acknowledge it or not, we are victims.

Anne: Yes.

Miss C: We’re victims. I’m sorry that that makes life uncomfortable for you, and you don’t like to think about the things that we’ve been through, but we are victims. We don’t live the life of a victim. We don’t look for ways that things are going so bad for us. We’re not looking to walk around like Eeyore and woe is me and everything bad that’s happening to me.

We are processing through the pain and suffering. Healing from what has happened. Seriously, it sets me on fire when people say that

Anne: I could not agree more You’re like I’m not acting like a victim. I am a victim.

Miss C: Yes. I know it’s meant well. I think the hardest thing for some people is it’s as hard to watch someone go through a tragedy and whether they’ll say it or not. Yes, and you are not alone.

Moving Past The Betrayal & You Are Not AloneMiss C: I really believe it’s generational in a way where it’s like, we don’t want that to touch our life. It’s too hard, ugly. It’s uncomfortable. We really just want you to get better and move on.

Anne: I think it’s also a control thing. They can tell you, Hey, you got to do something about this. But when you’re an actual victim, there is obviously a lack of ability to stop the harm. The only thing you can do is try to separate yourself from it. You could build a big wall around you. You could do all these things and the person can still act abusively toward you. For those of us who set a ton of boundaries. Our abuser is still abusive. There’s nothing we can do to stop them from being abusive. You just feel so alone, but you’re not alone.

All we can do is try to protect ourselves the best we can. I don’t think other people can wrap their heads around that. I think they think, well, eventually, they won’t bug you anymore. Or you can just pretend like they don’t exist or something. You’re like, no, if someone’s punching you in the face all the time, you’re going to have a bruise.

This is an interesting thing. I like it when people are like, well, now that you know what it is, when they hurt you, you can just like get better faster. You can be like, that was just abuse. No big deal. They’re an abuser, whatever.

Setting Boundaries With BTR’s Help, You Are Not AloneAnne: If someone punches you in the face, The bruise is going to take however long it’s going to take to heal. You can’t say to the bruise, hey bruise heal faster. I know that he was crazy when he punched me in the face. The bruise is going to take faster to heal. No, it’s just going to take the amount of time it is to heal. Even if you’re divorced, even if you’ve set all these boundaries.

If there’s a traumatic incident that happens with your ex. During a parenting exchange or a court case, they’re lying. They say things that aren’t true or something, It’s like a punch to the gut. You’ve got a bruise, it’s going to take some time to heal.

The cool thing is the more confident we get, the better we get at setting boundaries, the more we understand what’s happening. I do think we become a little bit like, Superheroes, and we can heal a little bit faster, which is cool, but we still have to heal.

Miss C: Right, and we get better at being able to, block those mental and emotional punches, because we now recognize them. I think that goes back to what you and I talked about before, when you get space, you get clarity. And you start to see, what does the Bible say? Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay. You actually really start to see those clearly, especially when they speak now.

Anne: Yeah, I agree. This is the one, it’s been five years. he’s a jerk. I don’t know why.

You Are Not AloneMiss C: That goes all back to it’s these stigmas that come with relationships and with divorce and with what everybody believes is how it’s supposed to go. The fact that it makes people uncomfortable. I really am going to dig in because like I said, my story goes a little bit deeper. I definitely believe that there needs to be something out there on what is the next step.

What do I do? How do I get through this, get up the next day, get up the next morning? How do I make it through that afternoon? Because sometimes it literally is all you can do to do the next five minutes. You’re in so much pain.

Miss C: I’m so thankful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because there is healing in coming together. I think there’s going to be more and more women that are going to become more brave. To be able to come together and meet each other in a way that we all have great friends. You are not alone. I have phenomenal friends, but to have someone and look in the eyes of someone that knows. There’s healing in that too.

Anne: The other thing I appreciate about the community is that We’re all learning collectively, right? Like when you said that’s a layer of grief, I was like, oh, I hadn’t thought about it that way before. And because we’re talking about it and we’re honest with each other and we’re being vulnerable with each other, collectively, we’re able to learn more quickly. We are not alone.

Generational Silence & WisdomAnne: I think back in the forties and fifties when there wasn’t an internet. If women tried to reach out, it was probably pretty hard for them. It wasn’t common for a woman to be like, hey, my husband’s looking at porn, help me. I mean, there was part of society you didn’t really tell. I mean, I’ve talked to many victims who were perhaps in their early seventies or late sixties and they didn’t tell anybody.

For a long time, now they’re able to talk to people about it. They could only learn in this isolated silo and they knew, okay, this doesn’t work. Collectively now, as we speak the truth, as we’re vulnerable with each other, with safe people, that’s the cool thing. We don’t have to be vulnerable with our abusers, but we can be vulnerable with each other, collectively. Yes, you are not alone.

We are learning so much and becoming so much more enlightened, I guess, and safe. I am going to use the word powerful, and when I say that I don’t mean that we’re like trying to take over the world. But I mean like own our own power and our own voice and be able to say, Wait, I know what to do. I know how to do it. I can do this.

Miss C: It’s biblical. To bear one another’s burdens indicates the ability to do it. So you can’t bear a burden if you’re weak, and it’s not physical strength we’re speaking of. You know, so yeah, I think there’s power in that too. Absolutely. I know there’s a scripture and I can’t think of it, but where it talks about the fact that we’re supposed to speak truth. Exactly, you are not alone.

You Are Not Alone: Join The Betrayal Trauma Recovery CommunityMiss C: I’ve heard this phrase many times, The church is supposed to be a hospital for the broken. I believe the church is where two or more are gathered together, that there’s healing there. I really appreciate that you said that about the ladies who kept quiet their entire life, you know what, I really believe that they believed in their mind that it was their fault. That’s abusive too.

Anne: Well, and now the cool thing is. We have so many women, various ages, right? In the community, in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group or ones that I’ve talked to who are in their sixties or seventies or however old they are, whatever, you know, all different ages. We have 30 year olds and 20 year olds and you know, everyone, but I really appreciate the wisdom of the women who bore it alone for a long time. They’re sharing, they’re really strong. You are not alone.

Miss C: Yeah, I would love to listen to that and to hear their story. Did they stay? Did they not stay? How that went for them. I bet you there are some huge nuggets of wisdom.

Anne: Yeah. Speaking of that, if you’re listening and you’re like, that was me, I didn’t speak out and I finally found Betrayal, Trauma Recovery, or I finally told somebody when I was in my late sixties or early seventies or eighties or whatever age you are, if that’s you, we’d love to hear your story.

You Are Not Alone AnymoreMiss C: I just wanted to make sure you are not alone. I really do believe that you might feel like you’re betraying your husband to speak to someone about your betrayal. That’s okay. You can talk about it. It’s not betraying your husband.

Anne: Yeah. In fact, it’s helping your husband because it’s accountability. It’s speaking truth.

Miss C: Absolutely.

Anne: Truth is painful sometimes. Truth is hard. Truth Might lead us down a road that makes, it seem like it’s more difficult. I believe it always leads to more peace in the end, even if it gets harder before it gets better.

Miss C: I cannot sing that praise hard enough. I will tell you the last two years have been hard. They’ve been hard financially, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. They have been so hard. I will take that over one more day living the lie. I would, in a heartbeat because now at least the hard is normal. You know, it’s just a normal hard and I’m okay with that.

Miss C: Right. I’ll take this. It’s so much more peaceful than when you’re living this chaotic lie and there’s so much chaos and there’s so much manipulation. You just feel so alone.

There’s so much lying that goes on for pornography to exist. It’s, it’s meant to be that way, a destroyer of the home. It’s like a invisible tornado constantly happening.

Seeing The Betrayer’s ManipulationMy ex would play head games with the kids. He would get them in this manipulation mode so that what he was doing could seem less heinous.

Like he would get, you know, Oh, they’re such awful kids. They’re so disrespectful. They don’t respect me. They don’t listen to me. Then I find out a year down the road that my son had gotten after him twice because he found porn on his phone. Those two had animosity between each other all the time.

I couldn’t understand it. Then I asked my son, but he was too young at the time to even put the two together. I would say son, why are you so disrespectful to your dad? Why when I ask you to do something it’s, yes ma’am, and you’re helpful and you’re thoughtful, and when your dad asks you the gloves come off.

He would do the same thing. He would say, that kid’s so disrespectful. You spoil him. It was always our fault. Then you come to find out he confronted him a couple of times and told him, don’t you dare tell your mom. He left his phone on the bed with stuff open and he would come in and he would turn it off and go hand it to his dad. He would say, you shouldn’t be looking at that.

Like I said, I’ll take the two years that it’s been, the hard, hard that it’s been when I didn’t know if I’d have two nickels to rub together. I’ll take that any day. Than living a lie.

You Are Not Alone, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Is Here For YouAnne: I appreciate her strength and her bravery and her willingness to share her story. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. Hopefully this helped you if you’re going through this, so you don’t feel alone.

Miss C: Thank you for having me, it was when I found BTR that I said, you are not alone.

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BTR.ORG Coach Sharon shares how spiritual abuse effected her. Although spiritual abuse can be subtle, Coach Sharon experienced intense spiritual abuse.

If you’re experiencing spiritual abuse, we’re here for you, check out our BTR.ORG Group Session Schedule.

Similarly, The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop helps women seeking to reclaim anything about themselves from their faith to their goals, gain autonomy after spiritual abuse.

Effects Of Spiritual AbuseAnne: I’ve invited Coach Sharon, part of our BTR coaching team to come on today’s episode. Sharon and I have been sharing our innermost feelings about the work that we do. How it really feels so urgent to share the truth with women about spiritual abuse and what they may be facing. Welcome, Sharon.

Both of us have gone through quite a lot lately, and sometimes when we’re faced with this level of evil, really. I mean oppression and people really trying to harm other people, it gets a little overwhelming at times. As we share today, I want all of you to know that everyone is always welcome here.

We are interfaith no matter what religion you’re a part of, and no matter if you don’t have a religion, you are welcome here. Sharon and I are going to be sharing from our faith perspective today. This is our own personal experience, not necessarily to proselytize to you.

We hope that you find it helpful and just wanted to let you know that. Again, everybody’s welcome. One of the things Sharon and I talk about is that bringing the light in the light of our savior, Jesus Christ.

Well, Sharon and I are Christians, helps us do this work and sort of push out the darkness when we’re feeling overwhelmed. Sharon, in your experience being a BTR coach, she facilitates BTR Group Sessions as well as BTR Individual Sessions.

Emphasis On Interfaith Inclusivity When Talking About Spiritual Abuse As you have the opportunity every day to help women. They’re in the darkness, they don’t really know what’s going on. Can you talk about that and how that feels?

Coach Sharon: Yeah, coming into light is important. I mean, when you’re living in darkness and you don’t know the truth, it’s a difficult place to be. When you don’t know what the truth is, when you don’t know what the diagnosis is, when you don’t know what the problem is.

Then you don’t know how to keep yourself safe. You need to know what the truth is in order to come to a place of safety. Women come into BTR not knowing what truth is, feeling like their truth, even though there’s something on the inside, I think you call it the internal warning system, that internal navigator, it will direct you.

It will show you that there’s something going on. But knowing to trust that internal truth is difficult, especially when you don’t have words for it, when you don’t know how to define it, when there’s been no basis forever making you aware that there could even be evil.

You feel crazy, you feel like this is just me. I must be alone. There must be something wrong with me. A lot of women come into BTR feeling that way, like I’m just in the dark and there’s no light. It’s hard to navigate in darkness. It’s hard to perform any task.

The Impact Of Light & Truth In Healing From Spiritual Abuse Well, if you’re doing it in darkness. BTR turns a light on and exposes abuse. It exposes emotional harm and psychological harm and spiritual harm and so forth, and helps women to get to a place where they can actually get safe. The Living Free Workshop, you referenced that darkness in terms of living in that dark space, the workshop calls it the shadow and living in that shadow or living in that dark place or that cave.

It’s a hopeless existence. So coming into light, coming into truth helps you to bring your life into a better place.

I was thinking about that scripture that says men prefer darkness rather than light because their ways are evil. Now, I mean, I don’t think the Bible was specifically just referring to men, but at the same token, the principle is true. Darkness is the preferred way because evil can live in darkness, right?

There’s no evil in light where there’s light, there’s truth, and truth comes in a variety of different forms. But if we don’t expose ourselves to truth, then we stay in darkness.

For example, I think in scripture, but I was thinking about the text that says, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. But if you don’t access truth, financial truth or physical truth in terms of nutritional truth or there’s lots of different truth that we need to expose ourselves to, but my people perish for a lack of knowledge.

Truth Overcomes The Effects Of Spiritual Abuse If you don’t have the knowledge, then you don’t have the truth. If you don’t have the truth, then you don’t have safety. So coming into truth is really important.

Anne: For women of faith. Truth is important in general, just like in their bones. My guess is truth is important to agnostics and atheists as well. Logic or just reality. I think for all of us, truth is important for women of faith. When we think about truth coming from God maybe or truth coming from scripture or something.

Can you talk about how so many abusers twist that so that it keeps the victims in the dark? They weaponize victims true desire to know truth or to know God in order to exploit them or harm them. It gets really confusing, I think for women to think like, well, I went to scripture or I went to my faith leader to get help.

It didn’t really help me and I was truly seeking help. It’s not because the word in and of itself is inaccurate or the word in and of itself is harmful, but it’s because so many of the evil interpretations of it or the evil applications of it have harmed victims. Can you talk about that for a bit?

Coach Sharon: Yeah. I love that you say that. That was my experience when you consider scripture was firmly rooted in my heart as a child. I grew up knowing that scripture was good. It was how we were taught to live our life.

The Power & Misinterpretation Of Scripture Scripture being firmly rooted in my heart root, my thoughts governed my actions. It’s how I lived my life, but it cultivated not abuse, but a soil for faith like that foundation created in my life, a rich soil that was faith.

I had something planted in that good soil with something that was evil, it grew mindsets and strongholds and things in my life that God never intended to be there.

It’s not that the word was bad, the word was always good, the teaching was always good, but the seed was a negative seed. It produced negativity in my life opposed to what God intended to be able to grow in that part of my life.

I heard this quote I want to read. Can I read this really quickly? Yeah. It says the word is God and God is his word. The word of God, scripture is God. It’s who He’s, and God is his word. It’s his character. We come to know God by what is read in the Word, and if the word is poorly translated, then God is poorly known.

So it’s just we come to know who God is by his word. I mean, think about everything the Bible says in terms of God’s word.

Weaponizing Faith Against Victims He said his word over everything. Proverbs says that a good name is of great riches and he has exalted his word over everything. So the word is who God is, right? So if you have a word that is poorly translated, then God can’t be correctly known.

I lost God when I said I do. I didn’t have a God because the God that was being portrayed to me was one where there was classes and I was in the second class seat.

In this new position that I was in, I didn’t have a voice in this space. I was expendable in this space. My thoughts, my feelings, my value were all secondary in this space. It made me feel as if I had no God, which was very damaging in terms of my life because it was the foundation in my faith. Those words can be really detrimental in terms of how women process.

Anne: Can you share what you thought back then? Because guessing back then you didn’t think, God doesn’t love me, I’m a second class citizen. I’m guessing that that type of articulated thought wasn’t there. Were there ways that you kind of did some mental gymnastics to kind of be in that space?

Coach Sharon: Yeah, so my thought process was this was part of the cross. This was suffering. It was the way of suffering. We’ve been called to suffer and sometimes suffering and marriage is what God calls us to, that we’re called to a life of suffering.

Mental Gymnastics In Spiritual Abuse The suffering wasn’t extensive. It wasn’t like anyone was abusing me, especially since I had no definition of what abuse was. So this was just godly sorrow. This was my cross. That’s that song. Must Jesus bear the cross alone and all the world go free?

No, there’s a cross for everyone and there’s a cross. For me, that was my cross. I would submit to things that I knew were harmful and that were wrong, but I would justify them. This is what God wants for me, and I can show him my love through my obedience, through me not complaining, by me, forgiving by me overlooking.

In that I’m showing God my love. Because there are so many scriptures that speak to the truth of being obedient, which I think is a godly principle, is being obedient. Because everything is not rightly divided, when we are talking about scripture, we’ll take one scripture and that’s it.

Wives are to obey their husband in all things, and that covers everything. There’s never any more dialogue or anything that goes into unpacking that. Then those things can be used as a weapon against women to silence them or to make them believe that this is correct.

Anne: At the time when you silenced your own internal warning system, God’s telling you something’s not quite right here. You’re feeling it. Well, I want to say he’s kind of reframing it for you, right? Do you feel like the abuser reframed it in terms of this is your suffering, or because you had no other context for it and it wasn’t your fault, right?

The Challenge Of Recognizing Spiritual Abuse Because you hadn’t been educated about abuse, the light had not been shined on it. Do you think you were the one that reframed it? Sorry, I don’t mean to blame the victim in that sense. None of it was your fault, but I’m just trying to figure out how we can help other women who might be grappling with this.

Women who are reframing it in a way because they have no light, they have no ability to reframe it any other way because there isn’t any other context for it. Do you know what I mean?

Coach Sharon: Absolutely. I think it was a combination of things. I mean, it was me preferring to stay in what was comfortable. It was easier. It was familiar. I wanted it with all of my being. It was easier for me to redefine it, reframe it, call it something different.

Then I didn’t have to move. It allowed me to stay where I was comfortable, even when I knew that there were things that there’s no way when I would think about concepts of grace. Isn’t God a God of grace, of compassion, of love? How are you reasoning this out? It was just like, ah, you can find a way.

You can find way to make anything fit if you really wanted to. I think a lot of it was me refining it and not wanting to really see it for what it was. Of course, I think that my husband at the time wanted me to believe that as well.

I think that it served a purpose for him, for me to believe that I was rebellious.

Internal Conflicts & Rationalization That this was really me, that it was all me. He played a part in that, but I also just believe that evil is always there. Let’s take away the chuck. Let’s take away Sharon.

I think that there’s always that internal evil trying to speak voices that influence us to go in the wrong direction. I don’t think that that is always, it can come through the voice of a person, but I think that evil is always right there. You’re not good enough. You’re not this, you can’t do it. God doesn’t love you.

Those evil voices are always there. So I think it was a combination of things all working together as a perfect storm to keep me stuck.

Anne: It’s interesting when you said I was comfortable, I was stuck. Guess what else it came from? You are really, really good character and your pure nature, because the thing you really wanted wasn’t to be comfortable in abuse, but the thing you really wanted was a peaceful family.

It was coming from this place of goodness, and I think all victims who are trying to figure this out. It’s not like we hear every day victims being like, oh, my family and marriage doesn’t matter to me. I don’t care. I’m just comfortable here. I like my pillow and I really like my couch, so I’m not doing anything.

No, no, no, no, no. That’s not where they’re coming from. They’re like, this is hard and I’m suffering, but my family is important to me. The unity that I feel, the kind of life that I want is a life of wholeness and goodness, and I want to get there with my family.

Desire For Family Unity & Spiritual AbuseSorry, I’m not trying to invalidate what you said, but I know you really well. I’m just thinking of comfort. I don’t know if that is the right way to describe it.

Coach Sharon: I wanted my marriage. It’s just like I had a vision for what my life was supposed to look like in terms of my family and so forth. When I say comfort, I’m not talking about the luxuries of life. I’m talking about the purpose of life. I’m talking about what I gave myself to and believed in.

I wanted, wanted to hold on to what I felt like my destiny was, and my destiny was connected to a unit. It was connected to a person. When I say the person, I’m talking about my family.

Anne: Do you mean like the church because he was a pastor.

Coach Sharon: Just metaphorically my family, but yes, the church as well. I felt committed to what will this look like to others? How will this harm others? What will this mean if I walk away from this in terms of the people that will be hurt to see that this has happened when we’re supposed to be something that represents what a good marriage is supposed to look like?

What will that mean to them? So all of that played a part with me staying and feeling like, no, I need to try to do this. It was an uphill battle, and I begged God to change circumstances that just never changed.

Shattered Dreams & Seeking Spiritual SafetyI knew at some point, there’s no way this will ever get better, because there was no enlightenment.

I am in no way stating that I didn’t have a role in the harm that was played in it. I did, but it wasn’t a systematic denial of personhood. It wasn’t like I wasn’t allowing a person to be a person, that there was a continual determination to not allow a person to be heard.

Or to have an opinion in so many different areas where they stopped having the ability to weigh in or be a part of their own life. To not have the ability to weigh in on your own life is to rob you of your identity. Faith doesn’t even do that. God gives you the ability to choose even when the choice is a bad choice.

I set before you life and death. No, don’t set anything before me. Just give me the good thing. You can choose me or you can choose not to choose me. No, just make me choose you. He gives us the gift of choice.

When that’s taken from us in a relationship where you can’t choose what you want to do or to have a voice in your parenting or to make a choice about what you like or dislike, what’s important to you, your values, that’s taken away your personhood, and that’s not a holy thing.

How Spiritual Abuse Effects ChoiceAnne: In my experience, that never occurred where I felt like my personhood was taken from me or that I didn’t have a say. I always felt like I for sure had a say. What I felt like was that I couldn’t do anything. It doesn’t matter. I can’t make progress in my own life.

The things I wanted to do, I could not accomplish. I was saying them out loud. I was attempting to do it, but it was like I had an anchor that was dragging me. But then the other issue is after I separated and after I got to safety, I started seeing all of the ways that my person had actually been taken from me.

Even though I didn’t realize it at the time I was in the dark. There were so many things that I had the incorrect information or knew what was going on, I would’ve made a different decision.

Because I had been kept from that information on purpose, he had purposefully withheld it from me. That in and of itself, even if women feel like, oh yeah, I get to have a say. Yeah, I share my opinion even if they feel like that, if they don’t know what’s really going on.

They’re saying that based on a foundation of just nothingness because they think that they have a say because they’re talking, because they’re making decisions based on what they know. But because there’s this huge lie that they don’t know about that really takes away their agency, it takes away their ability to self govern.

Manipulation & Withheld Information Are Part of Spiritual Abuse It takes away that bodily autonomy that you’re talking about, and that makes me really sad. There’s victims in both situations. Ones who feel like I have no say, I have no voice, and then others who feel like they do, but they don’t realize that their foundation that their voice is coming from is based on a lie.

Because they might tell somebody, oh, yeah, I use my voice and I tell my husband all the time, Hey, I don’t want you to do that. He’s like, okay, no problem. But you didn’t know that he’s sleeping with prostitutes or you didn’t know that he’s been lying to you about the bank account.

Coach Sharon: Going back to The Living Free Workshop, I think you call it the cupcake, right? So it’s that belief that you actually have something that you’re happy to have it, that you’re rubbing on your face, but it’s not reality. It’s really not reality.

You think that it is and you’re so happy to have it, but it’s not what you think it is. It’s actually the shadow. Going back to that principle again, it’s really important for it to be authentic for that space to be authentic. The experience is different from relationship to relationship, and that’s what I like about BTR.

Though we are all at different places in terms of how we came to be where we are, the experiences may be different in terms of the day-to-day. The abuse, the control, all of those emotional, psychological behaviors that keep us stuck, that’s where the similarities lie.

Understanding Coercive Control In Spiritual Abuse I mean, for some women, it is that coercive control, whereas for me, it was very over. It was, no, you can’t have this.

At the end of the day, the harm is still the harm. Whatever they experience, the harm is still the same.

Anne: Absolutely. I think the intent is still the same, even if it looks a little bit different from one victim’s experience to another’s, the intent of the abuser is the same. It is to control the narrative. To exploit and to manipulate the situation to get what they want without you figuring out.

Wait a minute, this isn’t good for me. I think they know. I mean, I don’t know for sure, but they always try to spin it. This will be good for us. It’s not that way. It is not good for you. I think they probably know it’s not good for you, and that’s why they need to manipulate you to do it.

Because if it was good for you, they’d be like, Hey, let’s both eat a salad for lunch. Great. I’ll make the salad for you. Cool. Instead, if he’s like, I don’t want to make the salad and I know it would be good for me. I know that she’s allergic to lettuce, but I’m still going to make her make the salad and eat it because it’s good for me, even if it’s bad for her.

Coach Sharon: I remember this from Patricia Evans when she talks about how a person will root themselves in another person. They’ll kind of their reality in somebody else, and their truth becomes your truth because you cease to be a person. You become an extension of them.

The Universal Patterns In Spiritual Abuse They really know when they say, this is good for us, I’ve actually heard that said, I know what’s good for us. There is this belief that we’re now one, so my thoughts, my feelings, what I’m experiencing is your experience.

I kind of sit there like, huh, how is that possible? Really confused as to how that could be believed, but there really seemed to be a belief that you’re an extension of them. Over a period of time, you can lose the ability to be able to give voice right in your life because you’re an extension of that person. It’s amazing how that can just manifest itself in so many different weird ways

Anne: For women who don’t want to lose their faith. In the face of spiritual abuse like this, there are many women who are spiritually abused through scripture or through church. They try to get help from their pastor or their clergy, and it’s just so traumatizing that they lose their faith.

They feel good about it. Some of them feel more free than they’ve ever felt, and they feel like this feels good to me. For those people, that’s great. However, you feel better and wherever you are going, we support you here.

Spiritual Abuse: Betrayal & Loss Of FaithThis isn’t about that, but I do want to talk about women who don’t want to lose their faith, but they’re hanging on by a thread because of all the spiritual abuse. It angers me that something that could be very comforting to them.

Because I’m Christian, I believe Christ can heal them, right? Christ can come and save you and help you heal from spiritual abuse. So for the women who want to go there, but they just feel so traumatized.

Retaining Faith Despite Spiritual AbuseEveryone is welcome here. So if you’re agnostic or atheist or you’re a different faith, then Sharon and I, you are welcome. We’re just sharing from our own experience, hopefully something that we share will be helpful to you.

Women who don’t want to lose their faith, but they’re hanging on by a thread because of all the spiritual abuse. It angers me that something that could be very comforting to them and also because I’m Christian, I believe Christ can heal them.

Christ can come and save you and help you. So for the women who want to go there, but they just feel so traumatized, what are your thoughts for them?

Fresh Perspectives After Spiritual AbuseSharon: Stay curious. It’s just like going back to the scriptures again. Read the scriptures through fresh eyes. Throw out everything you thought you knew and rebuild yourself with the power inside you. That may mean that everything is ripped away so that it can be rebuilt better.

I remember God speaking to my heart, not audibly, but saying, I’m going to take everything away from you so that you can see that you had nothing, so that I can give you everything. Everything had to be stripped away. Everything that I thought I knew about God, about salvation, about my faith.

I learned so much in the hardest season of my life, discovering who God is personally—not who someone told me he was, or what I thought he was, or what I sang about, or what I learned.

No, this was what I experienced. I got to learn that brand spanking, and new. I had to be curious and I had to determine I’m not going to let go. I’m not going to give up. I’m going to hold on and allow God to find me. I couldn’t find him. I was just like, I’m lost.

I’m right here. I don’t know where you are or how to get to you.

Personal Growth Through Spiritual Challenges This is bad, but I just reached my arms up like, dad, find me. Find me. Hey, find me. He found me. We give so much to being strong. There’s so much power in being weak and I learned how to be weak and say, Hey, I need you to look for me. In that weakness, I found strength. I really found him. Be curious also, community. Have a good community.

If the community you have is not a community that is validating the truth, keep looking for a community. There’s a community out there. The community finds truth, and while some institutions have failed, many good ones exist.

I still believe in the church. I still believe in good women and men of God who carry light, love, validate, and support women. Many of them have supported me. I just had to get over the spiritual abuse.

Don’t give that up in terms of your pursuit of your faith with all that has been lost. Don’t give that up too. I mean with all that has been taken, hold on to what’s meaningful to you. You have to hold on, and my faith wasn’t up for grabs me and God was going to go through the trenches, but that was not an option for me to let go.

I knew at the point that I let go. My life was over. BTR was a resource that God used to save me. In my mind, it was God’s way of bringing truth to my life, but God brought that truth to my life. If I were X him out, then that resource would not have been made available.

The Importance Of Supportive Community He gave it to me. But you can be curious. There’s so much more love that God has for us than what is sometimes displayed in religion. He’s so loving and so compassionate in terms of his willingness to find us right where we are. All this work of trying to get to him and get perfect and get this and be enough. I can’t live without you is enough

Anne: For me, it was the same way. There was no option for me to decide that faith wasn’t for me. That was not an option for me. I remember it was probably about a nine month period where I could not feel comforted, I would pray, but I couldn’t hear him.

I would pray, but I couldn’t feel him. It felt so terrible and I just kept trying. I kept reading my scriptures and then sometimes I’d talk to clergy. They’d make me feel worse, so I’m not doing that. I believe in God. I don’t believe in you. This dude that was telling me this wackadoodle stuff that I was like, no, but that period for me was really, really hard and I wouldn’t say it ended with a vision or something.

It wasn’t like at the end of this nine months, suddenly it parted. God came down and was like, oh, I love you.

When You Can’t Feel God’s Presence I’ve been here the whole time. No, that didn’t happen either. But there was at some point, and I don’t really know when that was when I started feeling comforted again, when I started being able to feel his spirit with me. It was such a dark time and remembering that gives me, it’s just so creepy.

One of the things that I thought of as I was looking back on that time was that my feeling was that God was there. He was trying to get to me, but my abuser kept swatting him away. My abuser kept oppressing me. He kept saying things that weren’t true and frankly, I’ve felt like that recently as well. I’ve started feeling God’s comfort. Spiritual abuse is real.

Everything is going to be all right and then there’s some action on someone else’s part through no fault of my own. Then someone else’s action is like swatting the blessings away a little bit or swatting that comfort away and hit after hit after hit. At least with the abuser, he just kept knocking me down.

I started to kind of reframe it in that God is here and he is with me and he’s protecting me, but of course I’m going to feel terrible and it’s hard to feel comforted when you’re being metaphorically knocked down all the time.

Dealing With Spiritual Abuse & Its Implications On Faith Sharon: Really, it’s a war, this warfare to reclaim your identity. It’s a struggle and a war that I think that only sheroes in our community really know the hell that you have to fight to bring yourself back from. All the different layers pain that you’re now in the process of trying to figure out. How do I even get myself to a place of healing? It’s turmoil on a lot of different levels, but recapturing that essence.

It is not a journey that you undertake by yourself. There’s help for us. I don’t understand what broke or when the reality of God’s love for me came back or when I was able to pray. The spiritual abuse was so intense. That was horrific. Every prayer would take 25 minutes to get out. I kept restarting it, but for whatever evil kept trying to block me.

The Battle To Reclaim Identity After Spiritual AbuseI’m glad you kept going. I’m glad that you stayed in that fight and even now that staying in the fight. I know it’s not easy being on the front lines of this battle and you’re on the front lines doing this every day and no one knows what it takes to be on the front line.

It’s easy to click on a podcast or to listen to a workshop and appreciate it and go away. There was no sacrifice, but someone has to pay a sacrifice, a price for everything that someone else enjoys. A lot of us understand that you’ve paid a great price to be able to bring this content and I really thank you.

Anne: Thank you. It’s really interesting with The Living Free Workshop and The Message Workshop, I look at it now, it’s incredible. I almost feel like it just appeared out of thin air. I forget how hard I worked for years to get it to the point where it is. All the study I did, there was a time when the strategies in Living Free and The Message Workshop were in beta.

I had used them to deliver myself and my own children, but I wasn’t sure that I could duplicate it. I didn’t know, and so I worked with other victims to see, does this actually work? Can we apply it? And as I worked with other victims applying these strategies, they were like, holy cow, this works.

Strategies To Overcome Spiritual Abuse Helping them get to safety was also another process. It took a while. I’ve seen stuff floating around on social media and it doesn’t make me smile, but I just think, wow, do they not understand it at all?

Because it’ll say, six steps to a better marriage, take this six part workshop and you’ll be great. In Living Free and the Message Workshop, I’m like, this will be very hard. It’s not good marketing because I’m never like, oh, this is the solution to all your problems.

Just do this and you’ll be happy and everything will be good. I’m like, no, no, no. These strategies work, but employing them and experimenting with them. When I mean experimenting, I don’t mean that they’re experimental because I already did all those experiments to duplicate it. The principles absolutely do work, but when women find it and it’s new to them, then these principles are new to them.

The experiment isn’t the principles themselves. The experiment is how do I apply these in a way that works for me in a way that takes me to safety, and that’s a process.

It’s just not like any other type of marketing where it’s like, this will solve all your problems. These principles are good, true principles. They will help you. We will also help you on that path, but this journey is difficult and we will walk with you through it.

Anne’s Goal To Reach Other Women I think also comparing it to therapy, which is really interesting, or at least couple therapy or a pornography addiction recovery program.

Well, the problem there is the therapist doesn’t know that the abuser’s manipulating the therapist. No matter how much work you put in, it’s not a correct principle to be basing all of the work on.

You said the work has to be based on truth. So when it comes to pornography, addiction, recovery or couple therapy, if there is not a foundation of truth there, it’s not going to work. In The Living Free Workshop the principles are going to work no matter what.

If you take living free, you may end up going down the path where you separate, you may stay married. Regardless, you will be able to see more clearly what’s happening. You will be able to make decisions based on reality rather than this manipulated, contrived, false narrative that they’re trying to tell you in order to exploit you.

Sharon: Yes, because The Living Free and The Message Workshop identify the diagnosis, the problem, right? Therefore you get the right results. If you don’t start at the right place, then you get to the wrong destination. I think that what makes it powerful in terms of the resources that you’ve made available is you understand what the issue is.

Focusing On Real Issues The issue is spiritual abuse. If you start at the right place, not an issue of forgiveness, not addiction. If you start at the wrong place, you wind up at the wrong destination. Because you are able to rightly determine this is what the real issue is.

This is the stuff of real life that you’ve actually lived and now take in your work and put it in these different tools and forms to now help other women get to where they need to be.

The expansion of it I think is wonderful. I started with the podcast. Those podcasts saved my life. I didn’t have at the time The Living Free Workshop or The Meditation Workshop.

Then the podcast was my lifeline to greater understanding, and then as you built upon those things. I now had more tools and greater tools to equip myself and they worked. I can see it in how I remember communicating.

The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Helped Heal Me From Spiritual AbuseAnne: Getting to safety when an abuser does not want you to is never going to be easy ever. I’ve worked with victims now for over 10 years, and all of the coaches who coach at BTR have been through it themselves and they’ve worked with hundreds of victims, so now we can see the patterns.

Even though the road is going to be difficult, the BTR podcast and The Living Free Workshop and The Message Workshop and the meditations that we have here, they help make it safer.

The sad thing is, and therapists won’t tell you this, and I don’t think that you’ll get this anywhere else. The sad thing is even though it makes it easier, it’s still going to be hard. Thank goodness it makes it easier because it’s so hard. It’s painful. It’s difficult on so many levels, legal levels, emotional levels, physical levels.

Am I going to be able to eat? Am I going to have a roof over my head? There’s just so many layers of danger. I think people just don’t want people to know either that or alternatively they want to say something like, well, it’s just too emotionally dangerous or It’s going to be too hard, so don’t get to safety.

Just give up. For women who are like, wow, Ann, this isn’t very motivating. You’re telling me it’s going to be so hard. We want to say to them it’s worth it, but what would you say to them. Sharon women who were thinking, oh, wait. It’s going to be really hard. Then maybe I don’t want to do this.

Difficulty In Achieving Emotional Safety After Leaving Abuse Sharon: Yeah. I would say life is hard. The life that I lived was a hard life. It was hard. I mean, life doesn’t get easier. We get stronger and circumstances of abuse, when there’s abuse, when there’s harm, it doesn’t go away.

You delay it, and I wasted a lot of time trying to delay what ultimately the direction I had to go in anyway. I lost so much waiting for something to happen that was never going to happen. For something to come, that never came from waiting for a deliverance that was quite frankly just not going to happen.

I was going to say, hold on. It did happen. You were delivered. This is the truth. Your wife is for you. She’s trying to assist you. She sees something you don’t see.

There are blind spots that you need to pay attention to. I thought that there was going to be some kind of divine intervention that was going to make all that clear so that the road ahead there could be unity. So I waited for that, not realizing that there’s choice, that it comes down to what you choose to believe in, what you choose to deal with, and I waited and I wasted.

The Personal Cost Of Waiting for Someone To Save YouI wouldn’t necessarily say wasted because there were lessons that I learned and things that came out of that in terms of experiences with my kids and so forth. The trauma that was suffered as a result of me waiting is something that scarred me deeply. I can’t get those years back.

I can’t get that time back in terms of my life, and it would’ve been better for me to just embrace the hard. Life comes with hardship, but we can do hard things. I say that in group, you can do hard things. Life requires for us to do things that are hard, but we can still move forward.

Anne: It reminds me of the Israelites, right? They prayed for deliverance and Moses came and Pharaoh was like, yeah, you can go in our time. We can go at any time the laws of our country, the laws of our society, everyone is like, yeah, you can go.

I guess is what I’m saying. We don’t have to wait for Pharaoh to give us permission, but at that point, the Israelites had to pick up their stuff. They had to get their bags and all their animals or whatever they needed, and they had to stand up and walk out of there, and same thing when it came to the Red Sea.

Deliverance From Spiritual AbuseThey get backed up against the Red Sea, Moses parts, the Red Sea, and then what do they have to do? They have to walk through it. There was no point in this deliverance, and I love the story of Moses. I went to Jerusalem and studied deliverance. I saw with my own eyes the landscape and stood on Mount Nebo and looked down at the promised Land and it helped me build living free.

That’s where I got the strategies I used to deliver myself and my own children from abuse. It really just struck me that there is no point in that story of deliverance, not one where God picks them up off the ground and physically moves them.

Every single time they have to leave Pharaoh’s land and they have to cross the Red Sea, and then they have to wander around in the wilderness. Then they wait at Mount Nebo and then they have to actually go down into the promised land.

They have to walk down there. There’s no part in that story where they don’t have to work, where they don’t have to move, and I know a lot of women are praying for a lot of different things. One of the most common ones, and I’m going to say it out loud here and it’s okay, everyone can take a gasp that I said out loud.

Accepting The Hardship Of New Beginnings I know so many of us think can he just get hit by a bus? Let’s get divine intervention to stop him? It is very rare that they get hit by buses. If ever in the story of deliverance with the Israelites, when they’re at the Red Sea. They start going through and that pillar is stopping Pharaoh’s army from going through. Then at a certain point the water does fall on them and kill them, so I guess in that story, they are killed by the Red Sea.

However, those Israelites are still wandering around in the wilderness. They have nothing to eat. They have to rely on manna, so it’s not like that solved all of their problems. There was not just one thing that happened that solved all the problems.

Sharon: Yes, it’s very similar to the Israelites coming out of Egypt in terms of the deliverance story, especially when you think about how they wanted to go back.

It’s just like sometimes coming out of the cave is painful. The way of life that you had is just like this was better than that because it’s a new life and going into something new. There’s going to be growing pains with anything new, with anything new.

Trusting God In The Journey To Heal From Spiritual AbuseIt’s hard in the beginning, but then you adjust to the hard. Just like everything when you’re first learning how to navigate it is difficult, and we shy away from hard, and the Israelites did too. They thought it was going to be easy and it’s nasty food and this is not familiar to us. We didn’t like this. We want to go back to Egypt.

Yet this was a better life for them, but they were not able to see it. Then because they weren’t able to see it and move forward. They stayed stagnant for a long time wandering in a place that God never wanted them because they refused to live in reality, this is where you are.

This is the circumstance right now. Trust me, trust me and move forward, and that can be a difficult place to be. I see that in group a lot. When women get this truth, they listen to podcasts, they come to group and it’s like, now what am I supposed to do? I don’t have the money, I don’t have a house.

I don’t know how to do this, I don’t have any answers, and I was there, but moving forward is sometimes moving forward with no answers. It’s trusting and believing the same God that gave you revelation, that D-Day that sometimes we don’t know or don’t need. You trust that the same God who brought you here will lead you to your promised land, and that act of faith, as you said, is hard.

What Do To If You Want To Heal From Spiritual AbuseIt sounds good on paper, I trust you, sounds good, but living this out, this is a whole nother type of situation. It’s not an easy thing

Anne: At BTR because we live in reality, we will be with you. We will hold your hand the entire time. We have resources that will bring you light and truth and correct principles and strategies. Based on those principles that will help you get to safety as quickly as humanly possible and make it easier than it would be without them, but it’s still going to be a hard road.

We can hold all of those truths at the same time because we know there aren’t any quick fixes. It worries me when people think, just get divorced and then your abuse problems go away.

They don’t realize that this is a life long-term problem that will continue post-divorce. Not to say you shouldn’t get divorced, but divorce does not solve your abuse problem. So you have to be strategic as you start making boundaries about what you decide because it’s going to be complex no matter what.

The Journey To Heal From Spiritual abuseSharon: Yeah. Well, Ann, can I ask you one question? What would you say in terms of being the author of all things BTR, where would you say it would be good for women to start in terms of their journey?

I know there were so many different roads into our community. Where do you feel like it would be a good place for women to start? Would it be with the workshops or the podcast or group or sessions? Can you just speak to that?

Anne: That’s an interesting question because everyone’s path is so different. The paths are all pointing towards safety. Women have listened to the podcast for years without using any of our services, and the podcast itself has gotten them where they needed to go.

They felt good and they felt supported in real life. They met a good friend that lived down their street who helped them through it. There are people who never heard the podcast, who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group.

There are women who think, I don’t think I’m being abused. I don’t think this is for me. This seems kind of too extreme, and then a year later they think, oh, this is abuse.

Individual Paths To Emotional SafetyThey’ll be like, this is the only place we’ll get what I’m going through. Some women start learning about abuse and listening to it, and they realize, I think it might be abuse. Now that I hear what abuse is, that isn’t what I’m experiencing.

I mean, that’s also a possibility. If someone’s listening right now and they’re like, where should I start? This seems so complicated. Listening to the podcast is a great start. BTR Group Sessions are a really good place because you can start listening to other people’s stories.

I’m a super introvert, so groups make me a little bit nervous, but I did go to group at the beginning of my journey and it helped me to hear other people and see myself in that and be like, oh, okay. This is what’s happening.

Living Free is also a really good place to start because it gives very foundational principles for where your journey is going to take you and also very practical things that you can do like now every day to get to safety. You can implement them immediately, and it gives really clear visuals for how to do that.

I think it’s the most clear thing in terms of what to do, so if you’re listening and you’re thinking, what do I do? I just need somebody to tell me what to do. If you’re thinking that, I would say The Living Free Workshop is the right place to go.

BTR Can Help You Heal From Spiritual AbuseIf you’re thinking, I know I’m being abused, I need support: BTR group. If you’re thinking, is this abuse? I’m not sure, then the podcast is a great place or even BTR Group Sessions is a great place to start figuring that out. I wish I could just say, everyone do this thing first.

That would be really cool, but everybody’s different and everybody comes in with a different set of expectations or a different desire about what they want to do. Some people come to BTR and they’re already divorced

They’re looking for safety tools. My main concern is the women who don’t know they’re being abused on the top of my mind with everything that we do here at BTR, I’m always thinking about them.

How can I help a woman who is being spiritually abused, who’s trying to read scripture, who is praying to figure out how to make my marriage better? She doesn’t know it’s abuse. How can I find her? She’s at the top of my mind because once people have access to our resources will help them through that process.

I’m really happy that we have the tools for them, but every day I wake up and I think there’s somebody out there that doesn’t know there’s someone out there who thinks it’s her fault. There’s someone out there who thinks that she’s just ugly and worthless and that’s why her husband doesn’t love her, and that is not true.

Healing From Spiritual Abuse Takes Community SupportIf that’s you, you are beautiful. You are powerful, and you are so important. You’re important to God. You’re important to me, and I don’t want you to be blaming yourself or to feel bad for absolutely no reason, and for some ridiculous reason.

Everyone you’re going to for help, therapist, clergy, whatever, if they’re telling you it’s your fault because everyone is just in this soup of abuse. I hope to be a light to you, I want to find you. Whether you use our services or not, I don’t care.

I just want you to know that I care and I believe God cares. So if you’re listening and you feel the same way that I do, please share our information with people. Please get the word out about the podcast because that’s it. So when you ask that, I’m like, I don’t know how they’re going to utilize our services.

I’m grateful that they’re all available to people, but my main concern is, can I get to you? How can I find you in your hour of need? Especially women who are praying for it, and I hear stories all the time of women who are praying and they’ve been praying for years.

Then one day they do an internet search or they find something on social media, and that’s how they get to us. I’m so grateful they found us, whether a friend shared something or they typed in a search and an article popped up. I thank God they got here.

Coach Sharon Is Here To Support YouSharon: Yeah, I am too. I’m glad that we have so many different points of entries and for all the work that you do to make sure that we’re loved so well. Thank you so much, Anne. It was such a pleasure being here and talking with you today.

Anne: Thank you, coach Sharon, and thank you for being online available to support women as they’re going through this. Every day. You do several group sessions and you’re available for individual sessions to help women. Thank you.

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In the early days of her marriage, Lynea attributed problems with her husband to normal relationship challenges or her husband’s culture. Lynea finally realized she was experiencing betrayal trauma.

If you’re wondering how to recover from betrayal trauma, you’re not alone. Recovery from betrayal trauma is possible. If you need support, we’d love to see you in a BTR.ORG Group Session TODAY.

Transcript:Anne: Welcome Lynea. Let’s start at the beginning of your story. How would you define your husband’s behavior at first? Did you give any reasons for his behavior?

Lynea: We met at university and we we’re both quite young. It was my first real relationship after high school. I just was excited about going to university, we met through a mutual friend and at first I didn’t really see any behavior that was really off.

I didn’t really recognize anything that was different. He was very kind. He acted very thoughtful, made it a point to keep in communication with me regularly, so I didn’t really see anything that was off. I was young too. I was 18 or 19 years old. So

Anne: Even if you could go back in time, you might see something, it’s not anything that you could remember from your perspective now?

What’s Causing The Betrayal Trauma?Lynea: As the relationship went on, I just wasn’t happy. No matter what I had told him, I felt like even though his behavior might change for some time, and sometimes for long periods of time. It didn’t really matter.

I would tell him something, Hey, this is how you’re hurting me. This isn’t how I’d like you showing up. He would still continue to do the behavior.

Anne: You didn’t recognize it right when you were dating, but when you did start seeing it, what things were you like, Hey, that’s not okay with me. What reasons did you give for those behaviors before you knew more?

Lynea: Just talking about normal things of running a household, keeping things tidy. It always ended up in an argument. I felt that a lot of the load would always be on me to make things happen with groceries, cooking, finances, you name it.

I was always the one to do those types of things and no matter how many conversations I had with him. It seemed like it would always go back to that same thing where he would just forget about the conversation that we had and continue doing his old behavior.

Anne: I want to say “forget about the conversation.” Right. They conveniently forget about it when it suits their purposes. It was mainly about domestic labor then?

Financial Betrayal Causes TraumaLynea: Then going out to spending money. He liked to go out and party with his friends and that type of thing. I just was trying to be more conservative when it came to finances. That would always cause an argument too,

Anne: A lot of arguing that you couldn’t quite get a handle on it sounds like.

Lynea: Yeah, it just left me very confused. I just didn’t understand the dynamics of their relationship and I thought for the longest time that was me. Quite honestly, I thought I was the problem.

Anne: So at this time, are you kind of chalking it up to maybe miscommunication? What are you thinking is the Cause

Lynea: He is from another country and I thought that originally maybe it was just very hard for him to assimilate into rural Midwest small university. I thought he was having difficulties with that.

He didn’t seem like he was very happy most of the time and I felt like a lot of the times it was maybe me.

Anne: When you say I thought it was maybe me, was it because he was telling you it was you? A lot of the times we’d have the conversations in order to try to solve something and then he would start telling me that I just complained too much.

When He Blames You For ProblemsLynea: I’m not happy. It escalated over the years too. He called me names and I wondered am I the crazy one?

Anne: Did you recognize at the time the pattern of his exploitation that the reason he was doing this was so that you would do most of the domestic labor?

Lynea: I had no clue. After 24 years together I had no idea.

Anne: Me saying that right now. Are you like, oh, or did you recognize that at some point?

Lynea: I recognized at some point that he just didn’t want to take accountability or responsibility for things. If he did, it was when it was convenient or when things got so bad where he could recognize that I’ve hit my limit, then he would change for a while and there would be better behavior for sometimes several months.

Anne: He was capable of doing it, he just didn’t want to. I think that’s really interesting to bring up because they are capable of doing it. I think they’re just not genuinely that type of a person. So they’re play-acting kindness or they’re playacting equality or they’re play acting genuine empathy and compassion.

If you’re not actually like that, if you’re putting on a show, it would get really exhausting after a while because you’re basically acting all the time and even though you know how to do it, it’s not who you are. I think that’s why they can do it for a while, but then they just get tired.

Betrayal Trauma: Recognizing Exploitative PatternsIt’s also why the mask comes off when they are tired or on a trip for example, when it’s a little more stressful or they don’t have their regular coping mechanisms around.

Lynea: Yes, exactly. When he would get a little bit pressed when things weren’t comfortable for him, you could definitely see his reactions more quickly. He would be easily angered, just irritated and just not really a fun person to be around in the house. There’s always this vibe. It just didn’t feel good. It wasn’t pleasant.

Anne: What sort of things did you try in the relationship? Like therapy?

Lynea: He never was open to it. I wanted to go to couples therapy or marital counseling after we got married. He never would do it. He didn’t want to do it, so I was okay with that. I grew up in the church, so I think that this kind of had a big reason for why I was so loyal and so I stayed with him for so long to be honest with you.

I also thought patterns of where he would change for some time. He was capable of it, so it just made sense to me, well, maybe I’m the one. I was a very shy girl. I didn’t have much confidence. I’m completely different now than who I was when I met him.

I was very shy, naive for sure, and I wasn’t very good at speaking to other people. I felt like I didn’t have a lot of relationship skills and so I thought really truly that it was me, I thought that I was having a hard time communicating.

Stressful Situations Reveal Psychological Abuse Causing Betrayal TraumaI thought that he just didn’t understand and that it was this man woman dynamic that I just was clueless about. So I read a lot of books. I eventually did get some therapy sessions. I was always in the pursuit of working on myself. What can I do to make things better?

Anne: Most likely it was because he’d led you to believe that you were the problem. I mean, part of it is that the abuse is the convincing of the victim, that it’s not him, but that it’s her. When did you start to recognize that this stuff wasn’t working like therapy and your self-help and stuff like that?

Lynea: Once we graduated college, we moved back into the area where I’m from. We didn’t stay there for very long. We were just really working hard on trying to find careers in our degrees and I got a job in a big city. He started a business and so we were just really working hard for several years on my career.

His business, we actually did have a pretty good dynamic working together, oddly enough. We did that together for at least five or six years. We had a brick and mortar business.

Anne: So you were in business together.

Lynea: He always wants to be perceived differently from other people. So when he’s around other people, he’s great. There are no problems. Because I worked so closely with him, I saw how he interacted with other people, so I knew that he could be a certain way and I thought maybe this was truly who he was. There again, I am the common denominator here, so I must be the problem.

Recovering From Betrayal Trauma Is Hard When You Share A LifeAnne: When did you start to recognize that it wasn’t you, that maybe it was him? Were you aware of porn use or affairs or anything like that?

Lynea: I knew that when he would go visit his friends, they would go to strip clubs and stuff. I knew that one of his friends was into some things even though he was married that I don’t approve of. I told him this, he knew how I felt with prostitution, but I never thought that he would do any of that.

Because he was always very adamant against it and because he knows the problems that it causes in family relationships because he’s gone through some hard things. So I trusted him.

Anne: That’s what he would tell you. Did you ever find out that he had participated in prostitution?

Lynea: No, I’ve never found that out, no.

Anne: So he may have or he may not have. You just never got definitive information about

Lynea: That. Exactly. It wouldn’t surprise me knowing what I know now if he did participate.

Anne: Why wouldn’t it surprise you? Knowing what you know now? What do you know? That might be a clue.

When It Doesn’t Work To Decide To Make It WorkLynea: In 2018, we decided to move back to his country in Europe to be closer to his family and for him to be also able to help his father with businesses. Our business wasn’t doing so well back in the states, so I invited him to think about doing that because he just seemed like he was very unhappy at the time.

I think that it might’ve been a good change. He had been away from his family for many, many years and I thought just this might be something that he needs. Maybe a fresh start would help him. That’s what we did. We moved in June of 2018.

Anne: Did it help?

Lynea: No, it got worse.

Anne: Sorry, I think if it would’ve helped, you wouldn’t be here, right?

Lynea: Well, in one way it helped because it stirred the hornet’s nest, if you will. Remember we were talking about under stress, somebody acts a certain way. Well, this really was out of his comfort zone, and I realized quite quickly the dynamics of the family wasn’t healthy.

He was having a very difficult time working with his father, and so I chalked up a lot of his habits going out, partying. I had a conversation with him because I wasn’t getting any younger and I always wanted to have children.

Temporary Behavioral Changes That Prolong Betrayal TraumaHe always kept delaying it, postponing it. “Now isn’t the right time.” I finally had a very good conversation with him about what I was envisioning for my future, what I wanted in a partner, what I wanted in a marriage. If this isn’t what he wanted, then no problem. We can split ways, but now’s the time. He said, no, that’s not what I want. His behavior changed for a while.

Anne: So he said, no, I don’t want to change things. I want to stay with you.

Lynea: And then I don’t think it was too much longer after that than I conceived.

Anne: So you finally are able to get pregnant, which is something that you’ve wanted for a long time. And before you do that, he seems supportive and he seems like he’s on the same page as you. Then what happens?

Lynea: And then he goes back into his old pattern of behavior. He’s still going out partying, just generally not helping out with anything. I had made a commitment to myself after moving to this new country that it was a great opportunity for a fresh start. I’m going to work on being the person that I want to work on because so much of my life, I was just doing everything for him and I don’t know how I have the strength to do it.

Become The Woman I Want To BecomeLooking back, I really don’t, but I just decided I’m going to go and play full out and become the woman that I want to become no matter what. That’s what I did. I found my own circle of friends, a new church. I found the support that I needed, the friendships that I needed, and I just really focused on that.

Fast forward, my son was born at the end of December in 2019 and the behavior just got worse. It got a lot worse. I was happier when he didn’t come home. He was traveling a lot for business. I gave him my support so that he could travel and learn a new skill.

I actually had peace in the house for once. It just really got me thinking it’s much worse, much, much worse than I originally had thought.

Anne: Why do you think it took him being away, and we find this with most victims of emotional and psychological abuse that it’s very difficult to see how bad it is while you’re still in constant contact with them while they’re still living in the house. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that being away from him helped you see it, and if so, why do you think that was?

Experience Peace And Clarity With SupportLynea: Yeah, I totally think that being away from him helped me see it because thinking back to when we had moved to the big city and we were doing our business together. It was like the same kind of routine almost every day.

We were working a lot and then we would come home and it’d be the same dynamic and I like to have people over at the house. He never wanted to do that. Looking back, I see that he really isolated me from my friends. He most certainly isolated me from my family on purpose, and that’s been very difficult.

Now a relationship with my family is better than it’s ever been, and we are able to really discuss what has happened over the years and it makes complete sense now. It really does.

Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our specialty is psychological and emotional abuse, which is horrific. Many women who’ve had physical violence say that definitely the emotional and psychological stuff was much more difficult to recover from, but just from your perspective, blocking doors or breaking things, did any of that happen?

Lynea: When we were younger, I remember some of those things happening and he was always into TaeKwonDo and I got into doing it as well. He was quite good. He got up to be a second degree black belt, and I remember that we would spar together and I just feel like he was overly aggressive on purpose.

Betrayed By Physical IntimidationSo there was an excuse as to why, but it was just that kind of thing. There was an instance, here, after I had my son that he was aggressive and he scared me and I went to block him and he said that I hit his sunglasses and he busted his eyebrow. I don’t see how that’s possible.

Anne: Well, if you’re an awesome at TaeKwonDo, maybe! I’m kidding.

Lynea: Yeah, exactly

Anne: That. Oh, we’re just wrestling around, but they do really have the intent to hurt you or are they kind of bumping you all the time or stuff like that? That’s covert physical abuse where they are sort of pushing you around and throwing their weight around. To let you know, “Hey, I could hurt you.”

Lynea: I do remember that, and I thought it was always his way of when you’re teenagers or whatever, and it’s kind of like the childish boy way of getting the girl’s attention. I just thought he never grew up in that way. I always told him that I really don’t appreciate that. We’re adults. Touch me nicely. I didn’t really understand that.

Anne: In addition to you getting therapy and trying to talk him into it, which he didn’t want to do, was there anything else that he tried or you tried maybe 12 steps or addiction recovery or anything like that?

He Never Wanted To Work On His IssuesLynea): No, he never wanted to work on his issues. He said it wasn’t a problem, but it was a problem because it was continually coming up in our conversations.

Anne: It’s interesting to me that he was like a health coach, but not healthy at all. Did that strike you at the time as maybe hypocritical or ironic or was he just so good at manipulation?

Lynea: We had conversations about that. I’m like, physically, you’re in amazing shape. You play sports, go to the gym every day and you eat well. Why continue having some of these bad habits that just don’t line up? It doesn’t really make sense if the puzzle pieces don’t fit. He didn’t like to have those conversations.

Anne: Talk about how you recognized it was him and then maybe what led you to seek safety

Lynea: The last couple of years before we moved here to Europe. I think that’s when my journey really started of being aware that no matter what I do, no matter how well I behave or how I change things up or how I switch things around or whatever I do, it’s never enough.

It’s never right. It never changes anything, and so I think that’s what gave me the courage just to live for myself. To do what I want to do and seek the things that I’m passionate about, create my circle of friends. Just moving here gave me that ability to do that and I’m so glad that I did because it really opened my eyes. I did have what I call the day of discovery. I was back home.

Shocking Discovery Of Infidelity, The Pain Of Betrayal TraumaAnne: When you say back home, do you mean in the States?

Lynea: Yes. We were traveling, my son and I went back home to visit my family for Thanksgiving. We had been there for a while and it was early November. I remember getting up and I was checking my email and I got two emails from somebody that I still to this day don’t know.

They were just letting me know that my husband’s been cheating on me nearly the entire time that we had moved to Europe. I was trying to hide it from my parents because there wasn’t a very good relationship there with them because of everything that’s happened.

I was just kind of in shock really. So I called him up and of course he denied it at first and then about an hour later he actually called me back and he confessed to it, but he said that it wasn’t anybody in particular. They’re not important. He wants to work on our marriage. He’s so sorry.

Anne: It wasn’t anyone in particular, meaning he was having affairs with multiple people or just the one person he was having an affair with for a long time was just no one special.

Lynea: I said, it’s just one person. He is like, no, not just one person. He just was very general about it.

Anne: When I said earlier, did you know of any affairs or anything? Was it just because at that point in the story you didn’t know?

Understanding The Full Extent Of Betrayal TraumaLynea: Exactly that point in the story? I didn’t know. No, I had no idea. This was my big eyeopener and then things just started clicking into place

Anne: And What do you mean by clicking into place?

Lynea: The blindfold had been removed from my eyes and I saw him for what he was. I just understood this is the reality of it, and I knew that I was going to really need some help navigating this because I had a one-year-old son living in a foreign country, zero family here.

That’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Oh my goodness, that was a game changer for me. I know that I wouldn’t be the person I am sitting here today feeling the way I’m feeling, being able to share without the support of BTR. The first time, I was just searching online.

I remember I got a therapist from somewhere else online. I did a couple of sessions and I’m just like, Nope, she’s not getting it.

I needed somebody that understood betrayal trauma because it’s complicated, it’s complex. When I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and I remember reading through the landing page. I just was like, this is it.

Finding Support & Validation Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group SessionsI attended a Betrayal Trauma Group Session for the first time and I was early. I’m always early to everything. When I joined the group session, I was thinking to myself, okay, there’s only going to be five or six other women joining this session at most.

More and more women just kept joining the session and I was seeing all of these faces pop up and these windows. Well over 20 women, with every woman, I had some understanding and it was resonating with me in some way. I just remember feeling so grateful that I’m not crazy.

For years, I felt crazy. For years I thoughtI had mental illness, depression, that I was the problem, and so I couldn’t get enough. I read a lot of the books that you guys offered on your website, I downloaded your book from Amazon as well. Everything was just making so much sense and I had never heard of anything like this.

I did one or two Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions then I realized I really need to get some one-on-one coaching. So I tried BTR.ORG Individual Sessions. Then I paired up with one of your amazing coaches and that was just such a wonderful experience. It just really helped me so much with what I was navigating.

Necessity Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual SessionsGoing through divorce, trying to co-parent and also child custody. It was so valuable, so valuable because I didn’t have to sit there and try to explain to somebody that has never experienced any of this before. She knew exactly what I was talking about. She just had really good advice about how to navigate a really difficult time in my life.

Anne: I’m so happy to hear that. That is our goal here is to really help women. Because I experienced it and everyone who works at Betrayal Trauma Recovery experienced going to a therapist and then kind of educating the therapist, so we don’t get help.

We’re trying to help them help us, and that doesn’t actually make sense. So many people just don’t see this from an abuse perspective. When you got that information that he was abusive, how did you feel about that at first? Did it hit like, oh, this is what it is, or did it take a minute? Were you like, I don’t know about that. Can you talk about your journey to realizing that he’s abusive?

Lynea: I went back and forth for a long time and I’m just going to be completely honest with you. There’s even days that I have recently that I questioned that maybe it was still me, as crazy as that sounds. It is a long journey to recover from betrayal trauma.

Accepting Reality Of What Caused Betrayal TraumaAnne: Doesn’t sound crazy. All of us have been through that.

Lynea: All the truth is there. Everything’s out there on his behavior, everything over the years and it’s like I always have to go back, no, this is what you did. This is what you tried. This is your thought process behind the things. Remember the feelings. It takes a long time to get out of that cycle of thought or the abuse pattern. It’s been a journey.

Anne: Before we talk about this, I want to say that at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re not pro divorce, so whatever any of our clients feels like is the right thing for them. We meet them where they’re at. Your emotional safety and your psychological safety is our top priority. This is why I created The Living Free Workshop.

You decided that divorce is the best option and let him know. I’m guessing he didn’t react to that.

Lynea: I was open to giving it another chance. Remember I was visiting the United States and then I came back right before Christmas to Europe. Because of the conversations that we had that we would work on it and he needed to go see a psychologist or a therapist of his choice. My ultimatum, attending therapy, he only went to two sessions.

He said, I really like the person that I’m seeing, but that doesn’t work for me. I said, okay, well, that’s where we are. Then I think divorce is the best option. He went on to say that, and also, I don’t believe in marriage anymore.

Betrayal Trauma: Understanding Their Exploitative CharacterI said, well, there’s not much that we can debate with that. If you don’t believe in marriage anymore, then you don’t believe in marriage. I guess I don’t know really what to say to that. Then he proceeded to ask me, my jaw about hit the floor, if I would consider having an open marriage.

I said, no, no, that’s definitely not for me. He knows my values. He knows how I feel about marriage, so I said, no. I know that I’d let him know two times, if not three times I’m going to file for divorce. When he actually got served the papers, was furious.

Anne: I find that to be so awful and scary, but also very interesting that generally speaking, they don’t want to get divorced. Which leads me to the conclusion that for them it’s about exploitation. They don’t necessarily want a marriage, but they enjoy the fruits of a partner, someone who will do things for them, childcare or meals.

It’s more of an exploitative relationship where they realize you’re a powerful, awesome person. There’s things that being associated with you bring into their lives, and so they don’t want to lose that association. They don’t want to lose the access to all of your talents and your passion and all the good things about you.

Dealing With Betrayal Trauma And Moving ForwardThey just don’t want to participate in a relationship, but they want to be able to exploit you. That’s the only thing I’ve been able to figure out because if they don’t want to be married, why do they want to be married? It’s hard to wrap our heads around that.

Lynea: Yeah, it really truly is, and that’s really been one of the hardest things for me to realize that I really don’t think he ever loved me. It is a huge part of recovering from betrayal trauma. He discarded me after being with him for over two decades. That’s crazy, and I just had his son and through my pregnancy and delivery and all of that, that’s a whole other story that we could go into on the treatment.

It’s ugly and it’s very, very painful, and that’s why I just, I want to share my story and let people know. Let women know that they’re not alone and it’s not them. They’re not crazy. There’s no shame in being deceived.

Anne: Well, exploiters use your strengths against you. You’re a compassionate, caring person and they use that to their own benefit. They’re not part of a team and it’s hard to realize like, oh, I’ve never been part of a team. It’s not because you’re not absolutely amazing and worthy of love.

They’re incapable of that because their character is one of exploitation. They have an exploitative character and they also think that that’s sort of what a relationship is.

Reflecting On Recovery From Betrayal TraumaLynea: Exactly, yeah. Instead of like a partnership. I felt a lot of times that I was his competition, but I thought, well, his personality type is he’s always in it to win it. Whether it’s or just being good at school. That was his strength, so I would always kind of back off also as being his wife.

Oddly enough, I was thinking about this the other day and I’m just thankful and grateful that I could laugh about this now, but guess who’s married already? Yeah, of course. The guy who’s not into marriage.

Anne: He feels uncomfortable when he is not able to exploit someone.

Lynea: Yeah. That’s a miserable way to live.

Anne: I want all women to know this. They have a really hard time being alone because their power does not come from personal responsibility. Their quote unquote, power comes from exploiting us. Then if you think about it, who is the powerful one?

An abuser will always lead you to believe that you’re going to be nothing without him, but it’s the opposite. He is going to be nothing without us because he has nothing, because all the power that he has is stuff that he exploited from someone else. Is he going to actually clean the bathroom?

Gratitude For Growth On The Betrayal Trauma Recovery JourneyLynea: Yeah, I doubt it because

Anne: He would be a powerful person if he had personal responsibility if he cleaned the bathroom, but he doesn’t. I want to always point out to women that makes him powerless.

Lynea: Just trying to co-parent with him, I laugh about co-parenting because it’s nothing of the sort, but he’s still trying to shame me. He brings up things of the past, hints around that I’m a bad mom trying to get me back into that crazy making cycle.

Anne: You’ll get stronger and stronger. So Lynea, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us about how to recover from betrayal trauma, today and share your story. We really appreciate it.

Lynea: My pleasure. Thank you for all that you do.

View Details

In this episode of The BTR.ORG Podcast, host Anne Blythe speaks with J.R. about her struggles after discovering her husband’s infidelity and emotional abuse. They discuss problems that can occur in religious and legal frameworks, and the possible impact of complementarian ideas. The conversation underscores the resilience required to confront and navigate emotional and spiritual abuse.

BTR.ORG is here for you, learn about our Group Support Sessions.

This episode is Part Three of Anne’s interview with J.R.

Part One: My Husband Says I’m the Problem. Is He Right?

Part Two: Should I Divorce My Husband for Emotional Abuse? Can I?

Part Three: How Complementarian Ideas May Contribute To Emotional Abuse (This Episode)

Can Complementarian Ideology Perpetuate Emotional Abuse?Transcript:Anne: I have JR back on today’s episode several months back. We had the beginning of her story, which we linked to on our website, btr.org. You can go there and it lists all of the episodes that she’s been in.

We wanted to take a break to give her time to process what she had talked about all of the events leading up to her divorce, so if you have not listened to that yet, go there. Listen to that first. Her first episode is titled, My Husband Says I’m The Problem, and that aired on March 26th, 2024, so you can go back and look at that in Apple podcasts. Welcome back J.R.

J.R.: Thank you, Anne. I’m glad to be back.

Gender Dynamics Complementarian Ideas Can ExploreAnne: Last time we were talking about how misogyny is systemic through church institutions, through society, also as it relates to complementarian ideas. I’ve talked with women all over the world from every religion, from no religion. Like atheist women or women who are agnostic and they have faced the same problems, but in different ways through the court system or through their workplace.

Are you surprised at how systemic the misogyny is and how difficult it really is to get out of abuse?

J.R.: I feel like I’ve never been a super optimistic person. I’m probably more of a realist, I definitely had more hope in the justice system and in our institutions, especially in religious institutions, in just people in general.

I have to say that I’ve become pretty jaded. I mean, at this point I’m healing. I’m growing. We work in process, so I am working through a lot of bitterness about the system and the church specifically. I didn’t grow up in what I would consider this complementarian male led sort of spiritual atmosphere, but in my formative young adult years.

On meeting my husband, he taught a lot of these really toxic patriarchal teachings and then used them against me. I’ve seen it time and time again and it was very surprising to me.

Anne: For people who are unfamiliar with complementarian views or that paradigm of viewing gender roles, can you talk about that just briefly for people who are unfamiliar with that?

What A Victims Entire Story Can Tell Us About ALL The Challenges of Emotional AbuseJ.R.: What attracts people to complementarian ideas? If they have good intentions, is that it’s sort of this hierarchical structure that God put in place in the Bible, that it puts husbands as the heads of their wives. Then in a church structure, it would put men in positions of authority and it absolutely.

In many areas, it completely disqualifies women for even holding a leadership or authority position in the church. I guess that was supposed to put it in a good light, but that didn’t really put it in a great light because it’s very hard.

Anne: I don’t know if there is any way to put it in a good light, but now I’m going to ask you the question that might put it in a good light. Which is when you were first introduced to it, what spoke to you about it? Is there anything about complementarian ideas that you thought, oh, this is intriguing,

My guess is that you would not be drawn to complementarian ideas. Where you were then it makes sense that you were back then. What are the ideas are compelling about it?

J.R.: It’s interesting because I was not interested at all when it was first introduced to me. Actually, I listened to, well then I guess he was maybe my fiance at the time. I don’t even know if I was married to my ex, but he wanted me to listen to this sermon by a preacher that will go unnamed who has become the sore spot for me.

Complementarian Teachings Spill Over Into Custody CasesAnne: Is this a famous preacher, someone you could find on the internet or is this a local preacher?

J.R.: He’s famous. Can I name drop him? Is that okay? Yeah. Okay, so it was John MacArthur who I didn’t,

Anne: I have no idea who that is.

J.R.: Oh, good. Bless you. I’m glad that you don’t because it’s terrible. My ex had me listen to the sermon, and I remember we were at his Bible college at the time. We were sitting in an empty room on campus, and I watched this sermon. By the end of it, I was just bawling because I had never seen someone or heard someone be so cruel and ruthless and just not compassionate at all from the pulpit like that.

The way he talks about women and what our roles are and why we’re made the way we’re made. Basically laying complementarian ideas. At that point, I hadn’t even started my journey of starting to have children or motherhood or being a wife or anything.

I didn’t have personal experience. I just sat there feeling if I was a woman who either just didn’t want to have children, maybe wanted to be married but wasn’t finding the right person. Or maybe was struggling with infertility, whatever it was, that hearing this, it would just feel like a slap in the face. That God designed you for these things and basically apart from these things, you don’t have worth.

Examining Why Complementarian Ideas Can Be Problematic I mean, at that point, looking back, I can see why I felt that way because it all within the context of marriage and motherhood. I’m a young single woman, the way he framed it, I’m not fulfilling the purpose of my life. In complementarian style teaching the only thing you are supposed to be is a mother and a wife. I remember crying, I remember resisting, but I really loved Jesus.

My faith is very important to me, and between my ex and then the pastor early on in our marriage, I just felt like, I guess they’re using scripture. I guess that’s what it says, I guess that’s what it means. I guess I need to conform to complementarian ideas, and so I kind of did it reluctantly, to be honest.

Anne: It’s not like it spoke to you. You’re saying I resisted it, but I sort of was coerced. Would you say

J.R.: A hundred percent I would use that word, especially now that I’ve done a lot of my own growing and kind of reflecting. Yes, say coerce because I mean, there are instances, I’ve always loved music, musical theater and different things. I signed up to audition for the voice, so kind of silly. It was like this fun thing I was going to do with my mom.

Right when I first got married and my husband and pastor at the time, I remember this conversation happened at our dinner table in our home. They told me and they used the scriptures against me.

Complementarian Ideas May Excuse When Male Leadership Hurts WomenI was being told that I was being selfish, I was using worldly wisdom instead of seeking godly wisdom because I would be in the secular world or I wouldn’t be like, well, you’re not singing worship, so why would you even do this? I was basically talked into and I would say guilted and shamed into not auditioning.

Anne: Coerced. Did your fiance have a job? I just want to bring up the misogyny here, right? Did the pastor say to him, you should not work at this job because it’s in the world?

J.R.: Oh, but that’s the thing. My fiance was the only other staff member on the staff at this church, and I remember my family was really upset. It caused a really big argument and kind of a rift between me and my parents and my sister because they were like, what are you doing? This is your passion. This is what you want.

Why are you not pursuing this? And I pretty much, I parroted all of the scripture back to them, and I got very protective personally. What I experienced in this complementarianism, this sort of bubble. It was like I needed to protect my marriage because I wasn’t my own autonomous person. Well, we were, but I had to defer to him.

Really there was no me. There was only him because if there’s one, and I don’t have a say, well, who’s the one? It’s him.

What Men Mean When They Say “We’re One”I repeated all this to them, and they expressed concern. However, I am newly married and felt the need to respect my husband, that’s the basis for complementarian ideas. I embraced everything they told me, believing it aligned with the Bible. That was enough for me to decide this is my path now.

Anne: Are you surprised and shocked to find out it was just psychological abuse, not God? Another argument suggests that God created you and gave you these amazing talents.

Don’t hide your candle under a bushel. I guess the scriptures only apply to men. They don’t apply to women got this candle and they’re telling you to hide it under a bushel.

J.R.: Right? Well, until it came to leading worship in the church, which they used me for and didn’t compensate, and it was very, yeah. Oh, yeah. So to answer your question, yes, at the time I never used the term abuse. Honestly, until I started listening to BTR. There was a lot of toxicity. There was a lot of stuff I did see in my marriage, but it took a long time for me to be able to use that word and to see it for what it’s,

Anne: I think so many women when they come out of that because they’re trying to be so righteous, they really genuinely love truth and they love God. They want to do the right thing so much that they’re willing to sacrifice themselves to the idea of complementarian theology.

Fighting For Custody During Divorce I’m like, wow, women are brave and strong and powerful, and they’re making these decisions because they’re such courageous, incredible people. There’s nothing about sacrificing everything about yourself that is weak, zero things, that is super, super strong.

Realizing that I was unknowingly coerced into sacrificing it to wickedness is devastating and heartbreaking. I thought I was doing the right thing. It’s so hard to deal with all this gendered emotional and psychological abuse. I have been actively working to get Om’s Law passed in Utah because my friend Leah Moses’ son was murdered.

Some of you have seen me in the news doing that. If you go to our YouTube channel, you can go to Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s YouTube Channel, and then we have a playlist. It’s BTR in the News, and you can see all the new stuff involved in trying to pass that bill. I bring that up because even agnostic or atheist women or religious women who experience it in their faith and then also in the court system are shocked like, wait, wait, wait.

I thought the justice system would help protect me from abuse. What is going on? Why is it getting worse? Let’s start talking about that divorce. In our last episode with you, you got to the point where you were ready to divorce and your sister was helping you.

The Decision To Divorce Let’s get to that point your sister tells you. If you haven’t listened to that and you want to hear the first part, go back. You decide, I’m going to file for divorce. Talk about what happens next, sort of what your mindset was at the time. This was how many years ago?

J.R.: It was the end of 2020 that we separated. We briefly tried to make it work, got back together again, at the end of 2020, but it was January of 2021. At this point, three years ago.

Anne: Those of us who have been, I’d say out of the fog for a long time, you view things differently over the years. Three years ago, where you are in your mind is going to be drastically different from where you are today as you talk about it. Can you kind of take us back in time to your mindset and how you thought about it back then when you decided to file?

J.R.: I decided to file because I had a pretty severe mental breakdown and was in the hospital because I was suicidal, and that linked with getting back together with him. When I came out of the hospital, I still wasn’t going to leave him, but his actions in that week following that incident just solidified for me that he would never change.

Surprise & Struggle Over Custody Claims That it would never get better, that I couldn’t put myself back in that situation. Friends of ours, or they’re more friends of mine, I would say. We went to their house. I asked them if they would be present for me to tell him that I wanted the divorce, and I had written a letter and I read it to him. I know the friends who there found it so shocking that he lacked of any kind of feeling.

They’re watching friends that they know really well and that they’ve watched in ministry, start a family, all these things, and they’re watching. As I’m telling him the heartbreaking story of why I need to divorce him, and he’s just emotionless, emotionless.

I had already seen a lawyer. I had already had a lawyer come up with an agreement that included it, said that I would be the primary custodian or the primary caregiver. That he would be partial, that he would’ve partial custody.

Now I’m like, how did I miss that this is going to be an issue and he started fighting me on that. At this point in time, going back to 2021, I have three children. They are probably like three, two and less than a year old, and I have been a stay at home mom with them their whole lives.

I remember a conversation with him where I was saying something about me being the primary caregiver, and he was like, well, I don’t see how you’re the primary caregiver. I was like, wait, I am literally with them more of the time. It’s not a question.

Navigating Custody & Complementarian Ideology Anne: Also, wait a minute, all this complementarian stuff,

Anne: You’re suddenly throwing it out the window when it doesn’t suit you, because didn’t you tell me the whole time I’m the primary caregiver. They’re not the most logical folks. These abusers, they use the arguments when it suits them, but then when it doesn’t, they just throw it out the window.

J.R.: They have to grasp at straws when they realize it’s all falling apart. I’ve just seen in co-parenting with this person that they’ll say the craziest things. They will contradict themselves all over the place. You think we’re talking about the justice system, you would think it would be so obvious to anyone with a brain.

It just, for some reason, and this is why I, okay, sorry, I’m getting all over the place. I’m getting ahead of my thought.

Anne: You can go all over the place if you want to go ahead. I’ll just bookmark it for our audience and for you, we are at that. You’re surprised that he’s contesting that you’re the primary caregiver.

The Decision To Speak Out J.R.: This is why I’m here. My current husband, he is with me right before getting on this call. I was just so nervous. My stomach was so sick, I was like, I don’t know.

Why am I doing this? What am I doing? And he reminded me, he’s like me, you’re doing this because it’s important to you and the lies and the voices in your head that they don’t want you to be speaking out to be confident.

To be helping other people, to be sharing your story. All that being said, you feel crazy. It’s that C word, that horrible C word. I felt it for so long. It’s what BTR helped me to realize that I wasn’t. You feel that way with the justice system or injustice system and the people who are supposed to help. They’re just, where are they? It’s infuriating.

Anne: You’re surprised, right? Because this goes against all of his complementarian values that you are the primary caregiver. Which he’s told you multiple times about your quote “role here on Earth.” Without that you’re nothing. Talk about that, how that went down in court. You said it didn’t go well. Did he end up fighting it successfully?

Custody Decisions That Lead To More AbuseJ.R.: At the time, I was not in a great place. I had just come out of the hospital. I was just trying to get on my feet again. Although I will say I got a job. I got my kids into a daycare, got health insurance for all of us, which he never had for us all within a week.

I’m just so tired and I want it to be over. I fought back basically over the next month or two. I worked with my lawyer and my lawyer was working with his lawyer and him, and it was just back and forth, and he wasn’t going to concede to that.

To me, being the primary caregiver or having primary custody, hindsight is 2020. I now know better. If I had known better, I would have taken him to court and easily won custody, but I am still trying to be reasonable. Well, that’s not fair, because I was reasonable.

Anne: Let me put words in your mouth here, and if I’m wrong, you can correct me. You thought like, oh, since this makes sense, since any regular person I could do this with, this will probably work. Not realizing they are not normal. They’re an abuser.

Navigating Divorce & Custody ChallengesJ.R.: Yes, exactly. I just thought, I don’t have the money to go to court, I don’t have the mental capacity right now to go to court. I just want to move forward. At the time, I would say to people, I would say, he’s a fine dad.

He’s just a terrible partner, and now he’s really shows his true colors. Of course, I made him look good. I made him look like a good dad, so now we’re not together, and it’s very obvious that he’s not a good dad. Okay, we’ll do 50/50. I have regretted that every day since.

Anne: Are you still 50/50?

J.R.: Unfortunately, I did take him to court last year, and it was a brutal experience. The judge slut shamed me. My ex brought in a local politician who he somehow connected with, who for some reason sat and observed when they didn’t allow my husband to come in.

He brought people in who had a bone to pick with me, who perjured themselves on the stand. I mean, it was a mess. It was such a mess. By the end, nothing changed. They just said, everything seems to be working just fine, so we’re not going to change anything. The Ongoing Struggles of Co-Parenting with A Man with No Integrity

Challenges In Co-Parenting & Custody AgreementsAnne: I brought him to court for this reason.

J.R. : Exactly, because

Anne: Everything was working fine. No,

J.R.: Yeah. I picked up all the pieces. My big thing was I love my kids. Of course I’m going to do everything for them. I’m never going to let a custody agreement or order stop me from making sure they have what they need for school or whatever.

I’m using air quotes for 50/50 every time, I say that I’m doing 50% of the work, but I don’t have the rights to operate as though I have that custody. He would argue with me about medical things, he would argue about anything he could possibly argue about, and it was just things that I always took care of.

He was always happy for me to take care of them. But now, if I made a decision and he just felt like it one day, he would just nitpick it and he would say, that’s not, I don’t agree. We’d go back and forth and it’s like I didn’t have the right legally to do certain things because we’re 50/50.

Surviving An Abuse & Fighting For JusticeAnne: I was in the same exact boat that you are in for eight years dealing with my abusive ex. He caused problems every single day, he cancelled medical appointments, he didn’t want the kids to take any extracurricular activities.

He would try to coerce them into not doing literally simple things like baseball or taking trombone lessons, piano lessons. I took my ex to court and did not get custody even though I had a current protective order and pictures of bruises.

I was so mad. I’m trying to work for victims everywhere. I have a master’s degree and you know, stuff like that. I think like, okay, I should be able to figure this out. I’m like, if I can’t figure this out, no one can Literally, nobody can. My ex is an attorney. He just walked in the guardian ad litem, they like we’re in the same attorney club.

Oh I get it . The thing was over. I was so mad like, what, I’m doing everything right. I have all the documentation, I have everything and I can’t be free from abuse. I’m being abused almost every day by his messages.

Deliverance Through Faith & Hard WorkI started really praying and fasting about it and just pondering and just praying for deliverance. I feel like I was led and guided, I know that if you’ve been spiritually abused, that is triggering. It’s hard talking about God because that’s how a lot of women got abused.

Telling that part of the story is important because I promised God, if you deliver me, I will shout it from the rooftops. This was not me. This was an absolute miracle. My sister who’s not religious, she was like, no, you did it.

You did it through your hard work. You had the ideas. And I’m like, no, no, no, these were from God and she’s kind of mad at me sometimes because she’s like, no, you’re a hard worker. You should tell people all of the hard things that you did.

Take that with a grain of salt whether you’re religious or not, that like that’s kind of what happened. So because I was able to deliver myself and my kids from abuse using strategy and not going to court, I was like, I’ve got to let other people know.

Transformational Strategies For Overcoming AbuseFor two years after that I tested it with local people in my area, tested the strategies, helped them with their messages. Did all The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies and helped them get delivered. I was like, is this just a fluke, right? Is this just me? Then I thought, I’m going to test this out

We tested it and miracle after miracle has occurred with these strategies and it makes me mad that a victim who hasn’t done anything wrong, she’s doing everything right. She’s reporting, she’s telling people what’s going on. They’re not listening.

I want to emphasize that like I was doing everything quote unquote “right.” You know, I’m a good communicator, I am a good mom, you know all that stuff. That’s not what’s going on here. This isn’t about how skilled you are at being a mom or a communicator.

This is about knowing what tactics they use and the traps that they use and how to avoid them through strategy. That’s what I teach in the Living Free Workshop. Then when you complete The Living Free Workshop, then you can take The Message Workshop and the Message workshop is tools to write strategic messages to these abusers to deliver ourselves.

Importance Of Taking The Living Free Workshop Before The Message WorkshopThe reason why you have to take Living Free first before you can take The Message Workshop is because all of the strategies build on each other. We’ve seen awesome success and I’ve trained the coaches so they can help women do it if they’re still having a little bit of trouble applying it.

Taking The Living Free Workshop helps a ton. Because the thing that I realize and you might be realizing, well you know this is not about the kids. Yeah. They don’t care about the kids. They only care about control over the kids and also control over you.

If they didn’t have the kids to use to continue to harass you or bother you or continue to be able to sort of be entertained by the chaos that they cause in your life. They wouldn’t have anything because they’re not interested in parenting, but they are going to be interested.

Is he remarried in in finding someone else to exploit, right. Marrying someone else that they’re gonna exploit and they’re gonna exploit them for childcare to take care of their kids and stuff. Is he remarried yet?

J.R.: He dates a lot. He’s moved women in women and their children into his home with my kids without

Anne: Telling me. Wow. Wow. The super righteous guy.

J.R.: He let his true colors show.

Discussion On Misogyny & Judgment Anne: He’s definitely an abuser and exploiter. Because he only uses them when it serves his purposes.

J.R.: Right. Yes. My story, like since leaving him has been pretty wild too. People have made a lot of judgments about me. I said about the judge, like slut shaming me on the stand. That’s because I got pregnant out of wedlock after leaving my ex.

Anne: Sorry, sorry. But your, your ex had sex out of wedlock just like you did.

J.R.: Right, exactly.

J.R.: There’s the misogyny at play. He can’t get pregnant. I actually wrote an open letter to the judge. I brought that point up that if our sexual activity were pertinent to the custody case for our children, then why didn’t we ask him about his sexual partners? But it wasn’t about our sexual partners, it was about the fact that I had a baby.

Which I also have taken very good care of and have proved to be a very good mother regardless of men who don’t want to take responsibility for their actions. I felt like I had to say that because of what you said about him, like being a religious guy and everything.

I know that people look at me and think, oh well is she who she always said she is? It’s like, well actually you know what? I don’t know. I’m discovering who I am because for 10 years he stamped it out of me.

Personal Growth & Overcoming CoercionAnne: It’s okay to change your mind. It’s okay to to be like, wait a minute, this was coercion and I don’t want to do this. That’s not what they’re doing. They’re not like, Hmm, you know what, the more I think about it, the more this is really misogynistic so I’m gonna make sure that I’m a good partner.

That would be growing. Right? No, they’re not doing that. They’re just finding another way to abuse or another way to coerce or their current target abusing her in a way that works.

If their current target’s not religious, they’re not going to use spiritual coercion or complementarian ideas on their current target because that’s not going to work. They’re going to try something else. I’m sorry. That’s awful. We’re getting really personal.

J.R.: Oh to I, listen, I came on here.

Anne: I’m assuming you did not end up marrying the father of this child?

J.R.: No, I believe it’s important because I have overcome a lot of self-shaming and self-hatred due to experiences after that relationship. Now, I look back with compassion because I always wanted to love and be loved.

That did not happen in my marriage. I spent a long time begging for it.

How My Last Baby And Faith Led Me To HealingOnce I got out, I was very broken and engaged in pretty risky behavior, regardless of religious views. Things that just weren’t good for me. They weren’t healthy for me. My daughter, my last baby might have saved my life honestly. I was just going down a really bad road. Of course this was all, whenever I didn’t have my children, it was 50 50.

Trying to fix what was broken and obviously it wasn’t working. I wasn’t actually healing. I got pregnant and I thought it was gonna ruin my life, but it actually I think saved me. It stopped me from continuing down the path I was on.

The father wanted me to abort and I wouldn’t. He said that he didn’t want anything to do with it. I considered adoption. He said he didn’t want anything to do with that either. Then shortly after that I met my current husband who came into my life because I am a spiritual person. I had been praying for God to send me a Boaz.

If you know the story of Ruth, it’s basically in that story Boaz is what’s called the kinsman redeemer. You know, I was in this place, I’m like, I’m a strong independent woman.

Finding Healing & Faithfulness After DivorceI don’t need a man. I prayed that God would send me someone to take up the responsibility and role my husband was supposed to fulfill. And they would fulfill what I felt like I was promised through making my vows.

Anne: Making your vows to your ex?

J.R.: Sorry, to my ex. Yeah. That one

Anne: Kind of like, I’ve been faithful to my vows now I need someone who will be faithful to the vows as well. Idea.

J.R.: You know, I’m not gonna like sugarcoat it looking back like I know everything out there and the advice I would give to women is just to wait, like give it time. I’m not advocating for like this because of my situation. Things did move pretty fast with my current husband because I was pregnant. It was kind of like, well are you in or are you out? If you stick around like I’m gonna have this baby.

I wasn’t really like messing around. We got married last year and he is a wonderful father to all four of my kids. God has done a lot of healing in me through being in a healthy relationship.

The Impact of Therapist Advice Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute because a lot of therapists, especially the pornography, addiction, recovery community, a lot of like pastoral counseling. I’m going to say almost all therapists would say something like, if you don’t work it out with this man that you are with the abuser, then you will marry another abuser.

Also all marriages are hard and all relationships are really difficult. There’s no reason to call it quits on this one because the next one that you get is just going to be this hard. Women are like, oh, okay. Then they try to make it work because they don’ think they can have a relationship that isn’t just a hard slog all the time.

I’ve talked to friends who remarried healthy men and I don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s so easy. Not that it’s easy because they have difficult things that occur, but the relationship itself is, is that how you feel? Can you talk about that for a minute?

J.R.: I think some of what you were saying with the way therapists view needing to work out kind of your stuff before getting in another relationship. That’s really linked to the whole codependent idea or co-addicted.

Overcoming The Challenges of Abuse and Self-GrowthAnne: Which by the way, listeners, you are not, you are just right victims of abuse. But someone might tell you that like, you chose him or what about you made it so that you would pick somebody like this or something like that.

J.R.: When you take that away from it, obviously listen, we all have work to do in ourselves. We’re a work in progress. We should always be growing. But you take that piece out of it that isn’t even true and it’s like, well why, why shouldn’t I be ready for a relationship?

I was ready 10 years ago when I met this abuser and I wanted a relationship. I wanted love and respect and a partnership. Now I have children and I’m doing everything I should have been doing with my partner. Like of course I am ready.

I’m, I’m ready. I do think it’s important to like educate yourself and like be aware of things that maybe you weren’t before and so you can avoid and you can recognize red flags and all of that. Like all of that is very important.

Right. I will say my current husband did have a porn addiction, which I didn’t know about when we got married. When I found that out, I, it was devastating. I thought, here we go again. I cannot believe that I’m doing this again.

Understanding The Difference Between Genuine Repentance and Continued AbuseI’ve listened to you in the past and I really appreciate this. Where like you don’t really give your stamp of approval on like men who may seem to be doing the work, but like only time will tell sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

I’m a hundred percent there too. I’ll share what my experience has been so far. But this is not me saying like, well everything’s good now everything’s fixed.

I’ve been able to see now how an abusive, narcissistic, toxic person who does not want to change and who never actually deals with the addiction. How that he handles it versus how someone who is genuinely repentant, he understands it as abuse, as emotional abuse.

He can see that what he’s been doing to me is just through the gaslighting and the lying. It’s manipulating, it’s how all of that is psychological and emotional abuse and he’s getting help. He’s in recovery. He’s in really good recovery right now.

I try not to be in that sphere of talking about all the recovery stuff on his end, but obviously it infiltrates my life because of him personally. I probably will never use the word like recovered but always recovering.

The Impact Of Recovery & The Challenges Of PornographyI do think he’s in really good recovery right now. I already thought we had a really great relationship. It was so much more loving and compassionate and it was so much more of a partnership than I ever had before. I didn’t even know it could get better, but it has gotten exponentially better now that he is sober and in recovery.

I’m in a good head space today, you know, so I can talk about it really in a clear way, but it’s hard. Like I’m not going to lie, it hurts to try again and then for that to happen again. It does give me hope that like, okay, it’s not that all men are like my ex.

Anne: Right?

J.R.: This man might have one piece of that puzzle, a similarity that is very painful for me. But that doesn’t mean he is that person for me.

Anne: The other issue is many people, men and women have used porn. If they’re lying, if they’re hiding it, if they’re using it, like if they don’t stop using it, anytime someone uses porn, even if it’s just once it’s an abuse episode, they’re abusing themselves.

They’re abusing the people around them trust, they’re abusing the person in the porn. They’re supplying demand for sex trafficking, right? So porn is, there’s nothing good about it and it is an abuse issue. There’s also a character issue at play.

The Impact Of Hidden Behaviors & Abuse When people make decisions over and over, they’re, that’s what determines their character. I would not say never, ever date or never ever marry someone who has used porn. I would never say that. What I would say is it is abuse. It’s always gonna be abuse.

There’s no part of it that if someone is involved with it, where they’re going to be like not abusive when they’re using it. The hiding or manipulation. If you do not want abuse in your life, you do not want someone who has these characteristics lying, cheating, manipulating. That’s what we need to look out for.

The reason I don’t date is mostly because I have no desire to like nurse someone back to health.

J.R.: Yes, a hundred percent it is. It’s not easy and it’s not fun. We’ve had lots of conversations because I felt like he robbed me of the chance to make a different decision. If I knew this I wouldn’t have married him. Maybe eventually we would’ve been together, I don’t know. But I definitely wouldn’t have married him.

Anne: That in and of itself was abusive

J.R.: A hundred percent, yes.

Conversations On Deception & Emotional AbuseAnne: You weren’t able to do this mutually because you did not have the right information. Men don’t recognize that that in and of itself is abuse is crazy to me. Like really you’re literally coercing and scamming someone into marrying you.

J.R.: He knew all about my history with it. We had so many conversations in the very, our very early days of dating of like I have texts that I’ve gone back to and like screenshotted of like me asking him once in a while just being like, Hey, is this an issue? Is this a current issue?

Please just tell me. I just need to know I, I just need the truth kind of thing. Over and over again lying and you know, I kind of feel, I kind of feel stupid but at the same time how was I supposed to know? Like I thought he was, I was telling me the truth.

It’s weird because in my first marriage it was so obvious to me that something was wrong. Something was off because he would never admit when I would confront him, I couldn’t explain what it was.

In this relationship really everything felt really good. I felt loved, I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt really good. I didn’t even question really that he was telling the truth. I’ll be honest, I don’t even know which one is harder because in a way my abusive ex with that experience I kind of saw it coming.

Navigating Trust You know, when it all came out it was like, oh this actually helps me make sense of everything because I already felt like everything was off. Finding out the truth helped me make sense in my current marriage, my current relationship, it confused things more for me.

I was like wait a second, how did you find out? I’ve always had a pretty strong intuition. I feel like I started to really gain that back.

Even though I say like everything is really great between us because of everything that I know about pornography addiction. I unfortunately had to learn a lot about it and it became such a big part of my life.

If he told me it was a part of his past, I was like, okay, but you didn’t do anything different. How is it not still a problem? You’re wanting me to believe that this was an issue. Then tell me what changed. Tell me how it became a non-issue.

Like you don’t just stop. Unfortunately that didn’t come until into our marriage. We would have conversations and then and some of the things we’d be talking about our past. Getting to know each other and some of the things that he would say, it just wouldn’t make sense.

Confronting Addiction & Seeking SupportI remember that feeling , no, no, no, no I’m not crazy. If I feel like something feels off then it probably is. I pushed and pushed. Honestly it was a brutal three days. The first night we talked about it and I basically just told him I was pushing and pushing and I said, look like I’m not taking no for an answer anymore.

I know this is a problem now it’s just a matter of you telling me the whole truth and not withholding anymore. It wasn’t even because I did not find anything on a device. It was just really, it was understanding the addiction. If you were addicted to this as a child and you spent all this time in this addiction, you didn’t just stop. I know you didn’t just stop.

The first night we were talking about it, it was a partial disclosure. The next day I guess nothing like new came out. Then the day after that it was everything. Since then I got like some of my very close friends involved who have walked with me through everything actually they’re the friends who were there when I asked my ex for a divorce.

They’re very close with me and I’ve got them involved and it’s actually the husband of that relationship who is, he’s is close with my husband. Basically he’s doing the, I don’t know how you feel or if you promote the accountability software.

Accountability & Support In Marriage: A Personal ReflectionAnne: All. I don’t necessarily because of my abuse stance you can talk about it.

J.R.: He’s the accountability partner for my husband on the software that we have on his devices. Basically that was like, this man is not messing around. Like he will call me the second he sees something. It’s not gonna be like, oh it’s his buddy.

They’re just gonna have a little chat through text and I’m never actually gonna know. My husband knows that. He loves you more than me. He’s not looking out for me, he’s not protecting me like he’s protecting you. That’s what I was missing too through my first marriage.

I didn’t have anyone really looking out for me and like advocating for me. There were people who were more concerned about keeping a marriage together than actually protecting victims. I mean there’s a lot of things that are different this time around.

I mean he’s actually following through with the boundaries and the needs that I’ve laid out for what I need to feel safe in our relationship. He is a hundred percent like not only doing them but doing them joyfully. He didn’t want to loose his family.

The Struggles Of Vulnerability & ExploitationWhich is not even his blood family. Whereas with my ex when we separated he flew across the country without letting me know he just abandoned us. There’s a lot of big differences but I’m not gonna say it’s easy. To anybody who would be listening, if I could go back, I probably would’ve stayed single a little bit longer.

Anne: That’s the other part of your story that’s really tough. He really exploited you and the situation when you were really vulnerable. You were praying I’ve, I’ve said that prayer , right when my ex got arrested I’ve said the prayer of like, I can’t do this alone.

I need help. I need help now. No one came but I think God was listening to my prayer and I got help in different ways. I didn’t get help in the form of a partner. But had somebody shown up and been really nice and and exploited that situation. I think about where you were at that time.

This is not to scare you, but story sounds a lot actually. Like my story, my ex was, I thought well it was wonderful. I thought he was in recovery. We, we actually did pornography, addiction recovery. Like we were the poster children, we would speak and I thought he was doing great.

Recognizing Subtle Forms Of Abuse & The Importance Of AwarenessI felt so connected to him. It was hard but I thought it was good. I remember talking to a friend of mine and she said, is this abuse? And she was like, no, your husband’s amazing. I had an abusive husband, he wasn’t anything like this. I thought yeah that’s true. You know like he would absolutely have encouraged me to come and share today my story.

When I hear stories like this, it sounds just like I sounded when I didn’t know what was really happening. Which is why I wanna warn everyone because I’ve gone through the internet and like taken all of our interviews down where I sounded like you sound now that’s not to say that’s not your experience.

I do believe people can change, I really genuinely do. I was hoping that was happening for me. And in my case the pornography addiction world just enabled his abuse and actually made him worse because he got better at manipulative kindness.

He got better at using therapy speak and then also better at hiding the abuse that was like in plain sight. If you knew what you were looking for. These types of stories make me a little nervous but also hopeful. I really hope that it works out. The only red flag that I can hear in your voice, sorry you didn’t ask for it.

J.R.: No, go. Go for it. I’m here.

Facing Hard Truths Anne: Is the, I wouldn’t, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have married him. Part of me wonders in that scenario, like let’s say I did it again if I could pull it off. Because back then I was not capable of doing this. But to say something like, oh okay, no problem.

Now that I know what’s going on, let’s get divorced because I wouldn’t have married you otherwise. Let’s just get divorced and then let’s date and let’s see if we get married. Now that I know the truth, part of me just thinks like knowing that in my heart and in my head was such a hard thing to know. Had I known this I wouldn’t have married.

I asked him all about his pornography stuff before we got married and he lied to me. It’s a hard thing to live with, which I’m sure that’s what you’re experiencing now.

I want it to be genuinely healthy. I’m holding it with open hands, you know, right now it seems as though it’s, it’s good, you know. I’m but I’m definitely not going to ignore the red flags moving forward.

Anne: Right. Well also that you would not be in this relationship had you not been coerced.

Overcoming Challenges J.R.: It’s a hard truth. Me feeling the heaviness of that on pretty much a day to day, even if it’s a great day, even if it’s wonderful.

Anne: Yeah, it’s hard. J.R. neither of us expected this interview to go here, right?

J.R.: Right.

We’re will get to the part where we hear the story about how she did end up divorcing and what happened through that divorce. Women are so afraid to sort of get to the edge and kind of look over it because they, they don’t know what’s there. For those of us who have done it we’re like, it’s okay. You know, it’s not a cliff, it’s just a slope and you’re will survive. Sharing your story of survival I think will help so many women. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today.

J.R.: Yeah, thanks Anne.

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Many women married to emotionally abusive men wonder, “Is my husband holding me back?” Understanding the signs that your husband may be sabotaging your personal progress is crucial in taking steps toward a healthier, more empowered life.

Sarah, a member of the BTR Community used the The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop to make progress. In this episode Anne talks to Sarah about overcoming the ways her husband held her back to reach her goals.

Using Meditation To Overcome What’s Holding You BackAnne (00:21): Sarah recently enrolled in the meditation workshop and she has been doing one meditation per week.

Sarah (00:29): Yes.

Anne (00:30): What meditation are you on now?

Sarah (00:33): I just finished the I am Loved meditation, a little more than halfway.

Writing Can Help Make Us Make ProgressAnne (00:37): I wrote these meditations because at a certain point, talking was not helping me as much as meditation or yoga because I talk all the time. I never am not talking about it. If I hit a healing roadblock talking, it wasn’t actually getting the trauma out of my body or helping me that much.

I started doing meditations on YouTube and several different other places. They were never specific to this situation, they weren’t gender specific. They weren’t exactly what I wanted, and so I wrote them. How everything has gone with BTR, it’s been, why not create the thing that doesn’t exist that I need.

Sarah (01:26): And is actually going to be helpful.

Anne (01:29): Hopefully. Can you talk about how it’s gone for you so far?

The Benefits Of The BTR.ORG Meditation WorkshopSarah (01:34): I’ve loved them. I have absolutely loved them, I love that you can do them multiple times. They only take about a half hour. I love that they are specific to me. I feel like I’ve done a lot more healing with the meditations than I have in years of therapy or groups because it’s more individualized.

It’s specific to me, and it’s what I think my pain is, and it allows me to get rid of that and be more open to the future and healing the wounds. I’ve really loved them.

Anne (02:15): In terms of BTR Group Sessions or BTR Individual Sessions, do you consider yourself an introvert? Just out of curiosity?

Sarah (02:24): Very much an introvert, very much. I need to clarify, I didn’t do Betrayal Trauma Group Sessions with BTR. I did it with another organization. If I could go back in time, I would’ve just done BTR from the get go. I think I would’ve just sped up my recovery a lot faster and I would’ve gotten to safety a lot faster if I had done BTR.

Anne (02:48): Yeah, BTR Group Sessions or BTR Individual Sessions.

Sarah (02:51): Yeah. The focus should have been to get to safety.

Anne (02:54): Totally. BTR group is awesome. It’s safety oriented, it’s the right group to go to if you want group support. It’s also really good to hear other women share their experiences.

There are some women who love BTR Group Sessions and they want to do it in perpetuity, and I think that’s awesome. For me, there was a certain point where talking wasn’t going to help me anymore.

My Husband’s Betrayal Is Holding Me BackDo you feel like you were kind of in that boat where when you’re thinking I still need to heal after betrayal and this seems like a better choice for me than therapy. Can you talk about how you thought about the difference between meditation and maybe another option?

Sarah (03:35): With group, I think it was good. I was just drowning, I had no idea what I was doing, so I needed tools to figure out how to survive, how to do life, and how to move forward.

Now that I’ve had some time, it’s been five years since my divorce and I have a lot more safety now, thanks to you. I mean, I still feel like I have a little bit of a wounded heart. It was a lot of pain and it’s a lot to go through and when you’re in the thick of it, my husbands betrayal was holding me back. For me personally, I was just ignoring the pain because I just have to survive.

Now that I’m safe, I can address the pain and everything like that, but it’s a lot to go through. Before I found BTR, I was doing other therapy and groups that weren’t as helpful.

Stopping My Ex-Husband From Holding Me Back(04:31): Once I found BTR, it streamlined my healing and it went a lot faster with the meditations. I saw it and I was like, oh, I got to do this, I got to try it. Once I did the first one and I was just bawling because I just felt so seen by my maker as a whole person. I just felt like I’m valuable.

Even after all this bad stuff has happened, I’m worth it. It’s been really healing. You can wade through the family dysfunction and generational dysfunction and identify for me personally, what I want to do for the future. I want to help my children and to help stop carrying on all of this weight and heaviness and pain.

Anne (05:24): You’ve listened to my podcast for years and you’re very familiar with my voice.

Sarah (05:29): Yes.

Anne (05:30): I’m just thinking I’ve never asked this question before. After listening to my podcast for so long and hearing my voice so much, was it a natural extension to have me also be doing the meditation or was that weird?

Sarah (05:43): No, I think it was great because I already felt like I knew you so well. You’re like an old friend. An old friend is just walking me through this path releasing me from my husband holding me back. It was great. I loved it, I found it more comforting rather than some stranger. I know your voice.

Anne (05:59): Can we talk a little bit about your story? It’s been five years since your divorce, before you knew that your husband was using porn and having affairs and lying and stuff. What did you think was going on back then?

Betrayed: My Husband’s Addiction Was Holding Me Back From PeaceSarah (06:13): Knew there was porn. I just didn’t know the extent of it. He kept that hidden really, really well. I thought, he must be in it again and that’s his thing. I’m going to do my life and we’ll just carry on.

Then things progressively got worse and worse and worse. There were several instances where I knew something more was happening, so I actually prayed. I prayed, Heavenly Father, I know something is happening. I just don’t know for sure. Help me find out.

That’s when I found out lots of bad things. He had a whole other email account and was meeting up with other women. I found out 2016, I stayed with him for almost a year and a half because he said he wanted to change. Then he just couldn’t be honest. He was truly holding me back from having peace.

(07:07): During that time, he started programs and I started therapy. We even did a couple of marriage therapy things, which was pointless, so unhelpful. I just kept finding things. He was not willing to be honest. We separated in April and I spent the night at a good friend’s house and she helped me find BTR.

She held my hand through the whole thing. Honestly, BTR has been my lifeline again. It’s the fastest healing, fastest way to safety also dealing with him after divorce because we have children together. I did The BTR Message Workshop and was a night and day difference. It reduced my stress, reduced my anxiety.

Everything is much smoother now because I know how to communicate, but still stand my ground and still get what I need.

My Ex-Husband Is Still Holding Me Back After Divorce Anne (08:03): The Living Free Workshop and The Meditation Workshop make it very clear that communication is a trap. All the things you’ve been told by the therapist or clergy or other people that you need to improve your communication in order to work things out is just not the case.

It seems ironic, you can throw all that therapy and all this stuff out the window. Communication’s not going to solve it. There are some communication strategies that will help you, but they’re still not solution based in terms of thinking that he’s going to be able to work with you.

Am I making sense? It’s like recognizing, communication isn’t going to help. Then if communication is not going to help, then what do? I do if I have to message back and I know communication isn’t the thing to do, then what?

You can’t just write back nonsense words! If you share kids, you have to communicate. It’s an interesting irony that I’m both saying. Communication isn’t going to solve anything, and also there are these specific communication strategies that will improve things simultaneously.

Sarah (09:11): I guess it’s learning what communication strategies actually work.

Anne (09:22): Because it’s strategic. You’ve learned to be more strategic?

Sarah (09:28): Yes. He has definitely played a game for years and years and years and was really good at it. I’m in that same game, so I have to learn the rules. If I want to make a move to go a certain direction, I have to play the game.

Strategic Communication Can Help You Move ForwardAnne (09:45): It’s kind of like render into Caesar, what a Caesar’s or don’t cast your pearls before swine or agree with an adversary quickly. Turn the other cheek kind of things, and that’s where I got those strategies from studying that.

What does this actually mean? Christ was saying that in relation to your enemy, so how does this actually deescalate the situation and help you be safe?

Sarah (10:14): Yes, yes. It’s strategic.

Anne (10:16): You can see what they’re doing and then you have specific tools to be able to be on his level. Because otherwise when we’re just straight up with them, they just weaponize everything against us.

Sarah (10:32): For me, I think the biggest thing that I learned from the message workshop is to identify what he’s actually doing. Previously I was getting a whirlwind of messages and I never know what’s happening. But now I know what it’s, and it’s easier for me to deal with it. Strategically.

Self-Discovery As A Path Forward Anne (10:56): Knowing you a little bit, I know that you’re extremely logical. I’m going to describe you as stoic. Tell me if I’m wrong. I can imagine that if you’re in therapy or something and they say, how do you feel? You would be like, well, it’s difficult.

Sarah (11:12): Yes.

Anne (11:12): Yes. Not that you haven’t cried, I’m sure you’ve cried, but you have more of a practical approach to life and your emotions. Regarding The Meditation Workshop, has that been a different way to access parts of yourself that you haven’t been able to access in a different way?

Sarah (11:37): Yes, I’m just right. That one for me was especially healing because you imagine your 6-year-old self and what she’s going through. The pure joy and pure love of a 6-year-old and accessing that 6-year-old and holding her, and that to me was really healing.

The very first one, I am resolute. That’s the one that was the most healing for me. I don’t even know if I have the words for it. I was bawling. It was just so healing to be heard and seen. I don’t know how else to describe it.

Anne (12:26): I think one of the reasons the first one sticks with people isn’t necessarily that it’s better than the other ones. It’s the first time that anyone does it. The meditations are set up so that the beginning goes through the same process every time for all 13 of them.

He Was Holding Me Back: Expressing The Emotional Impact Of BetrayalThen there’s a visualization that is topic specific. I did that at the beginning of every single one. The words are a little bit different, processing something else. Even though you’re going through the same process, it’s getting to the heart of that topic or that characteristic that you want to feel.

You want to feel resolute or you want to feel protected. It’s a powerful experience of things actually leaving your body that you didn’t know were stuck inside of you.

Then when you do it again the second time, you get another layer of pain out. I don’t know if it’s ever as intense as the first time because it’s just so different from anything else you’ve experienced. What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah (13:38): I do like that they follow the same format because I know what to expect. The workbook was helpful to identify certain areas of my body that I was feeling certain things. Then refer back to the workbook after the meditation is almost finished.

Sometimes Repetition Helps HealThat’s helpful to see, I might need to do this one again. Or, I’m feeling good on this one. At first, I didn’t know they all followed the same format, I was like, okay, Anne, what you doing now? That they all follow the format. There’s a purpose in it, and now I understand the purpose of it.

Anne (14:15): My thought was to get all the negative emotions out in the beginning. Get them all out and then fill you up with the positive thing that you wanted to become. Getting rid of the fear, getting rid of the trauma, getting rid of the insecurities, and also just the scripting from society. The places that says that you’re not good enough or that you’re not loved.

Then the second part, which is that topic specific visualization is about that thing. It’s about the truth that you’re going for or to feel protection or to feel like you are just right. I like the just right one. At first I was going to do I am enough, but my problem has never been feeling like I wasn’t enough.

My problem has been that I am too much. Instead of being like, you’re not good enough. It was always like, you are too much, calm down. There’s an element of you’re not good enough in that being too much.

Finding A Healing Structure That WorksThat’s why I wanted to be just right in between being too much and not enough is just right. No matter what you’re like, you’re already just right. You are the person that you were supposed to be. It feels like that with your 6-year-old self because she’s so cute. She’s so messy and energetic and, adorable.

Anne (15:42): Yeah, I mean, she’s a little bit too much and she’s a little bit not enough at the same time, and it makes her just right. She’s just delightful. The voiceover was actually done by my daughter, which if you hear it, you’ll hear her. She was very excited to be a part of it.

Sarah (16:08): I like the format because I really do feel like you get rid of the pain. You get rid of the trauma, and then you build me up so much and I can go conquer the world.

Anne (16:20): You’ve been able to do some amazing things, things you never thought that you’d be able to do. You remodeled your kitchen, that is huge. You broke down a wall. You’ve done just some incredible things in terms of BTR empowering you to do things that you never thought you’d be able to do.

Meditation Can Help Me Move Forward When He’s Been Holding Me BackCan you talk about how BTR and either the podcast or the meditation helped you accomplish some things that you never thought possible?

Sarah (16:53): Honestly, it comes down to being married for 13 years to an abusive man. It was always, oh, we got to do what’s best for the family and whatever. My desires or needs were always put underneath everyone else’s, mostly his. He was always holding me back.

Then I got divorced and listened to the podcast I realized I can do whatever I want. It doesn’t matter what that is. It’s whatever I want to do. That’s what I’m going to do. I think I always had the desire. I just didn’t know how to do the things I wanted to do.

Anne (17:25): Do you think also you had that scripting in your head that you couldn’t?

Sarah (17:29): For sure. I had wanted to remodel my kitchen for years and years when I was married. But we never had the money. Well, guess what, even after a divorce, I really didn’t have the money either, but I figured out how to get the money.

Achieving Personal Goals To Overcome What’s Been Holding Me BackWhereas if I was still married to him, I guarantee it would’ve been shut down. No, we don’t have the money for this. It’s never going to happen. It was definitely a script, a cultural script, spiritual script, I have to listen to him and do what he wants.

BTR definitely helped me realize my desires and my wants, and then I just had to figure out how to do it. I have on my wall, my miracle board, I have pictures on there that I want to achieve.I have switched them out because I have actually done them.

I’ve gone to Hawaii, I’ve gone to Disneyland, I’ve redone my kitchen. I am currently redoing my yard. These are things that I wanted to do for so long and I just didn’t know how to do them. First, realizing that I can do them, I just have to figure out how to do it. I can do it if I want. I just have to figure it out. That was the biggest hurdle for me.

Anne (18:44): I want to let people know. You’re not like Miss Moneybags or anything. You’re a high school teacher.

Sarah (18:50): I do not have thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars rolling in every month. It does not happen.

Taking Initiative To Make Progress Anne (18:58): One of the things that impressed me is your belief in yourself that you could do it because there were parts of that kitchen remodel that you did yourself.

Sarah (19:07): It was Father’s Day, and I didn’t have my kids, and I was like, I hate this wood paneling. I hate it, I just channeled Anne. I was like, what would Anne do? I’m like, change it. So I ripped it off. I ripped all the paneling off in one day downstairs in the basement, and then I had the studs showing and I’m like, oh, no, I’ve just created this huge mess.

What am I going to do? I called my brother-in-Law who has done drywall, and he came with his brother and they knocked it out in two days. Obviously I didn’t pay as much if I had some contractor come in and do it.

Okay, what else do I not like? I don’t like my kitchen. I’m going to redo that. I had to refinance some stuff to get the money to do that. I’m so glad I did because it was done. Then I had breast cancer, and I want to show my daughters that if you want something, you figure out a way to do it.

The Joy Of Achieving: How Confidence Aids HealingAnne (20:15): I was telling somebody the other day, I get what I want in general. I mean, sometimes I don’t clearly, but it’s easy for me to obey the commandments or to do the right thing, so to speak. Because I want to do it. There’s this instance where the thing I really wanted to do was the wrong thing, and that hasn’t happened to me in a really long time.

I went over to this couple who mentored me in my neighborhood, and I was like, I know this is the wrong thing, but I still really want to do it. I hadn’t done just saying it out loud and getting their help, and they prayed with me. It was so helpful being able to be like, okay, I really don’t want to do that thing. That would not be good for me.

Just voicing it so that I could have God remove it from my heart was nice, but just in general, it’s nice to know that the things that we want are good. Why can’t we do it? Going to Disneyland is not a bad thing. It’s awesome. Why would someone not want to go or fix your yard or your kitchen? How does it feel to be in your house now?

Sarah (21:16): I love it. I didn’t love it before. It’s a great house. It’s a great neighborhood. I’ve definitely made it my own. Nothing’s exactly perfect, but it’s so much better. I’m a big baker. I love to bake and I can knock a lot of stuff out of my kitchen really easily.

Gaining Energy & Momentum To Heal Do you want to know what I’ve made in the last 24 hours? I’ve made a lot, I’ve made sourdough bread. I’ve made an almond cake. I made lemon bars. I made lemon blueberry scones.

My neighbors love me because there’s no way I can eat all of that. I love my kitchen. I have a huge island now and I can work and I have a double oven. It’s what I need now. I don’t know if it’s necessarily, I need, but it’s so much easier than my previous kitchen.

My previous kitchen was from the 1960s and I’d clean it and it still looked dirty. What’s the point of cleaning if it’s still dirty now I clean it and you can see a difference, and so I keep a clean kitchen more because I can see the difference.

Anne (22:18): You feel like with these miracles or cleaning out the trauma from inside of you, I was able to accomplish my goal. I was able to get what I wanted. It feels really good, and it kind of compounds. Then you just believe in yourself more and more, and you just have more and more confidence.

Sarah (22:39): You definitely have more confidence because you’ve done it. You already know you’ve done it. I feel like it’s the Harry Potter moment when he conjured the patronus. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Conquering What’s Holding Me Back – The Power Of Healing In Achieving Goals Sarah (22:50): I already did it, so I knew I could do it. I knew it was me, so I just did it. So that’s how I felt. I can do things. It’s also healing. The trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do. When you’re just in the drudges of everything. If you don’t heal after betrayal, if you don’t take the time to address it.

Sarah: Healing the trauma and all of the pain gives me the energy to do it and the creative drive to do what I want to do.

Anne: Well, and I think that’s the thing that so many women describe, especially before they know what’s going on, is they describe feeling stuck in a healthy relationship. I don’t really know because I’ve never been married to a healthy man, but I assume it’s that you have these goals and that you progress toward them and you’re able to accomplish them and it feels good.

Together in this partnership, you’re making progress throughout your life and you’ve got ups and downs, but together you’re on the same path. When you’re with a pornography user, someone who’s emotionally and psychologically abusing you, you’re a victim of sexual coercion. You feel stuck all the time.

Emotional Abusers Holding Victims Back You can’t make the progress that you wanted to. I know that you bought that house with your ex and then you got it in the divorce. Even with that house, there was stuff that you wanted to do and you couldn’t figure out how to do it. It kind of just feels like they’re this big anchor that’s chained to us and we’re just getting dragged backward instead of being able to progress forward.

It’s not a partnership. It’s sort of a counter-ship where you’re making progress and they’re kind of holding me back.

Sarah : Yeah, because everything’s about them. It’s not about us, it’s not about our relationship and our goals. It’s his goals, his desires, his wants, so there is no progression really for me. He’s constantly holding me back.

Anne: They’re not going to care that much about whether or not the kitchen’s clean if they’re just looking at porn all the time. If they’re never home to be in the kitchen. Have you noticed since starting the meditations that things have changed? Were surprised because the meditations are a relatively low amount of effort.

The Surprises Of Starting Meditations You just listen and then go about your day. Have you noticed any changes that have surprised you? Like things in real life that you did differently that you were not expecting?

Sarah: My thought process is different. I’m more gentle with myself. The thing that’s coming up in my mind is the just right meditation with the 6-year-old. I’s okay if I made a mistake, that’s okay. I got to it, but guess what? That’s okay. I got to figure out how to fix it and then not do it again rather than beating myself up.

I should have done better. Changing my thought process of it’s okay, it’s all right. I can make mistakes. I’m going to do this differently next time so that I don’t make the same mistake. I don’t get as hard on myself as I used to. There’s still things that I want to change about my life as everyone does. It’s more of a gradual progression rather than a steep incline.

Anne: It’s also seems to be more gentle process when you hear someone say, don’t think bad thoughts about yourself, and then you’re like, okay, I’m not going to, and then you think something and then you’re like, I’m thinking that again. Oh, stop thinking that.

It’s not necessarily violent, but it’s like you’re confronting yourself this way. You just naturally change your thoughts in sort of a gentle way, and even if you had a thought like, oh, I’m so dumb.

What’s Really Holding Me Back? Changing Thought Processes Then you think, oh, sweetie, you’re so cute. Instead of being like, oh, I wasn’t supposed to tell myself I was dumb. I’m so dumb for calling myself dumb.

Then you go through that process. The other thing that I tried to purposefully build into that specific meditation was just mistakes. She knocks something over and makes a mess. Mistakes that we make that we’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that again. I’m going to make a different choice.

Then there’s also just mistakes that you can’t avoid. There’s just stuff that happens that nothing that you did could have avoided it. I think there’s this feeling that I need to learn all of these things so that I can avoid doing this in the future. I hope the meditation helps people feel like there’s also stuff that is going to happen and it’s okay, and I couldn’t avoid it, and that’s fine too.

Sarah: I definitely agree. Sometimes life happens and you can’t really avoid it. You give the strength to to keep moving forward

Anne: And being gentle with yourself as you’re like, ah, that happens. Today I got a full glass of milk and for some reason I set it on the floor. I don’t know why I did this, and then I stood up because I was on the couch, which I could have just put it on the table next to the couch. That would’ve been a good idea, but no, I didn’t I stuck it on the floor and I stood up and of course knocked the whole thing over.

My Abusers Lack Of Grace for Mistakes Is Holding Me Back I think the hard thing about that is there’s no grace for mistakes. With an abuser, you accidentally forget to deposit the check on time and a bill bounces or something. Instead of being like, oh, it’s okay, you intended to deposit it, how can I help?

I remember I did that once and I’m actually really good with finances and stuff. I’m very responsible, and that happened this one time and he was so angry. Then said things like, do I need to take over now? So now I have to do everything?

It was just a mistake. I forgot to deposit the check and I thought I had, this isn’t something that I do every day, the way they talk and stuff, there’s just no grace.

Sarah: My abuser wouldn’t give me a lot of grace, but it required a lot of grace on his part. He’d asked for a lot of grace. It’s ironic,

Anne: And we give it,

Sarah: Yeah, totally give you a lots of chances,

Anne: But not so much to ourselves. No.

Anne: You enrolled in the BTR Meditation Workshop, what did you think before you used the workbook? Were you kind of like, wait a minute, I’m supposed to fill something out during a meditation? Did you think it was a little bit weird or were you like, cool, I’m all for it? Can you talk about your thought process with the workbook?

Expressing Trauma On Paper Sarah: The workbook is really helpful because it gets things out of your head and onto paper and you have to see what is really there, what is the pain or what is the trauma saying? What are the words that need to come out, and sometimes they’re vile, they’re evil.

I’ve had an array of responses and it’s interesting for me to see it on paper like, oh, I really have harbored a lot of pain. Getting it out on paper gives it a voice and it’s easier to get rid of once you see it on paper. I am a big journal writer. Even when I first found out everything that he did, I was like, I got to get this out of my head.

Otherwise I’m going to go crazy. and so I wrote in my journal a lot. For me, it’s very helpful to have things on paper. It gets out of my head and I can see it. That’s holding me back. It’s a coping mechanism. I think the workbook is really helpful, seeing where it is in my body and what it’s saying, what it looks like.

Anne: Has it been hard for you to just go with whatever came in your mind?

Sarah: At first, it was. At first I was like, okay, this is weird

Anne: For people, if they’ve never done the meditation before, do you have any tips for how to just sort of let go

Sarah: Do it a couple of times, do the same meditation a couple of times. Don’t be judgmental. Just let it happen. Don’t overthink it. Just let it come out the pen or the pencil.

Visualizing Physical Representations Of Feelings To Let Go Of What’s Holding Me BackAnne : I encourage people literally, whatever you think, put it in there. It could be the craziest thing, like a giant hourglass full of marbles that is sitting in your living room. Whatever you think of, just go with it. If it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. Just do it over again in a minute. There’s no wrong answers. What’s the weirdest thing that it looked like? Like a blob or a color.

Sarah: Green, slimy, sticky gooey blob, and I don’t know if that’s the weirdest, “That’s holding me back?”

Anne: Is that the most common thing for you or is that just one time?

Sarah: I have had some sharp shards of glass, but mostly it’s sticky, goopy, slimy

Anne: Stuff. Mine’s usually black goop like tar. One time I had this chunk of cement come out that was the exact replica of the shape and size of my body. I was floating in the air and it just fell out, hit the ground, and when it hit, it shattered into a bunch of pieces.

The light came and just cleaned it up. That was weird. It was like my entire body was full of cement, that’s holding me back. I think that’s super interesting.

Also, when I do the light part, I go into this mode where I picture sort of a subatomic physics sort of idea. Where all of my atoms separate from each other and there’s space in between all of my atoms, and then I kind of picture them shaking or vibrating. Then they open up a little bit and anything unhealthy just comes out of them and gets pulled in, and I always love that part.

Health Benefits Of Meditation & Emotional Release I feel so much better afterwards. I just feel like it healed my body too. How do you feel about the meditations in relation to your health?

Sarah: I wish you had done this years ago. I feel lighter. I’ve read,The Body Keeps the Score, and you can’t separate areas of your life. You are a whole person and everything blends into every other part of your life. It makes sense.

If you’re in a relationship that’s abusive, it tears down your body physically. It just does. You can’t separate the stress from different areas. The trauma keeps holding me back. It just doesn’t work. Releasing the trauma and the pain and the memories has been helpful. I feel better physically than I did years ago.

Anne: When you get to, I am healing the healing meditation that has a whole section about physical healing, healing your physical ailments. I’m thinking, “What’s holding me back?” You’re in this sort of mausoleum kind of place and this lady comes and you lay down on this stone that can heal your body.

You’re a woman of faith, you’re a Christian. For any women who are kind of nervous. That makes me nervous. It’s going to let something that I am not sure into my life. Can you talk about that you’re a Christian and how you felt about meditation in light of your faith?

Meditation & Christian Faith: Aligning Spiritual Practices Sarah: I visualize it as accessing the atonement. That’s how I see it. For me, the meditations help me access the atonement better. I believe Christ can heal all things. The meditation is a visual way to see that atonement, to see Christ healing me.

Anne: In terms of your faith, has everything been safe for you? Has everything felt safe? Has there been anything that felt uncomfortable that didn’t really mesh with your values?

Sarah: Well, the meditations have aligned with my values, my religion. People say it’s prayer and meditation. They kind of go together, so it’s just a different way of doing meditation. To me, it’s more effective to do meditation rather than prayer. Now, I’m not saying prayers are bad for this specific situation.

I think these meditations are very helpful. There’s a purpose behind them, whereas my prayers are my wants and desires or gratitude or whatever my prayers are. They’re helpful as well. I’m not saying one or the other. I don’t feel uncomfortable doing the meditations even though I’m a religious person, that wasn’t holding me back.

Ensuring Meditation Aligns With Personal Values Anne : I am too. I was hoping that Christians would, if they wanted to, envision that light as Christ. So many women have had spiritual abuse be a part of their story, and many women have decided that religion isn’t for them. Because they’ve had so much spiritual abuse.

I support a woman getting to safety however she needs to get to safety. I wanted it to be very just open to interpretation. And make sure that all of the visualizations aligned with, I would say general Christian principles or the general principles of being a good person.

So that everyone would feel comfortable. Hopefully there isn’t any part of it that makes someone feel uncomfortable.

I can’t anticipate everyone’s experience and everyone’s situation, but for the most part, I tried to try to make sure that it was vague enough and general enough. Then also alternatively specific enough, in the I Am Brave meditation, it is interesting because you actually confront the abuser.

Do you remember that one? Yes. In a safe place, and that one might make people a little bit nervous, but he’s contained so that you’re safe. How did you feel about that one?

Sarah: Wow. The things I wanted to say to him and to actually hear. I think there’s always things that we want to say and to actually be heard. We could say it all we want, but that’s not going to affect him at all. In this way it did. I felt validated for my feelings and for the way that he treated me. It was freeing.

Is He Still Holding Me Back? Visualizing Confronting Emotional Abuse Safely Anne: He doesn’t change his behavior due to that, but he’s sort of forced to listen to you. For women who maybe nervous about meditation and don’t know if it’s for them what would you tell them?

Sarah: Give it a chance. What’s holding me back? Maybe if this is your first time doing a meditation, do the first one just a couple of times. Be curious rather than shut it down right away. I have actually told the women that I know that I’ve been in abusive situations about the meditation workshop and how helpful it has been for me.

I tell lots of women because this has helped my healing a lot, just give it a chance.

Anne: Which is awesome for you because there’s so not woo woo. Your room isn’t full of crystals and you’re not burning incense all over the place. You’re a high school teacher. Straightforward.

Sarah: I tell it like it is. Sometimes my bluntness gets people offended.

Anne: My mom, she is really cute. She was hesitant to try the meditations, she was like “What’s holding me back?” I’ll have to have her come on to talk about it. She took it and she was just crying the whole time, which is not like my mom at all. She called me and was like, oh my word. I didn’t know, it was so good. I was just crying and crying, and a lot of people have said that. It’s just like, let so much pain out, crying in a good way.

Has The Fear of Meditation Been Holding Me Back? Sarah: It’s a healing crying. It’s not a distressed crying.

Anne: The fact that my mom liked it, she’s not woo-woo either. I hope that there’s something for everyone no matter what their personality is, no matter what their experience. t was everything that I wanted, and then I was just trying to be mindful of maybe what everyone else would like.

Anne: I think everything at BTR is because I needed it, I had to figure out, “What’s holding me back?” The Living free Workshop, it’s because I needed a strategy. I tried everything that everybody else said and it didn’t work. The Message Workshop, same thing there. No matter what I did, I could not figure out how to get myself out of his emotional and psychological abuse.

Even if you said it was abuse, there wasn’t anyone who was like, okay, now we know this. Living free is for women who don’t know what to do. It’s very practical. Let’s all let go of what’s holding me back.

Let Go Of What’s Holding Me BackIt’s cool to have all of those resources that I wish I had, but everything was based on all of the obstacles that we face, legal obstacles, obstacles with clergy, just one right after another. It seems like they never end, but I feel like now I’ve written my book, which will be coming out soon. It’s like all of the stuff that I learned right now, I just want to apply it and talk about it all the time.

Now that it’s all built, because the good part is knowing that it works and seeing how it helps people.

Anne: I’m so glad. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for taking the time to talk today.

Sarah: There’s just such a need, so many of us. I think you’re going to help a lot of women. You’ve already helped me.

Sarah: Yeah, my pleasure. Just keep going. One foot in front of the other. You’re doing great work for all the other women out there. Keep going. Try the workshops. They are very helpful.

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Fairy tales showcase the double standards confining women. Fairy tales often vilify women’s anger, undermine their pursuit of financial independence, and set unrealistic expectations.

These biases shift the focus from abusers to women, making them see themselves as the problem. Join Anne and Jane Gillmore as they continue their discussion about misogyny and fairy tales.

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Jane Gilmore

Part One: 5 Ways Fairy Tales Brainwashed Women Not To Recognize Abuse

Part Two: The Double Standards Confining Women In Fairy Tales (This Episode)

Vilification of Women’s Anger: Society often labels women’s anger as overreacting, in stark contrast to men’s anger, which is seen as justified. This double standard shifts the focus from the abusers to the women, conditioning them to see themselves as the problem rather than addressing the root cause of their frustration, thus confining women.

Confining Women- Financial Independence Double Standard: Women are often condemned for seeking financial independence, a desire that is celebrated in men. This contradiction highlights the gender bias in societal expectations, undermining women’s right to financial security and autonomy.

Absurd Societal Expectations: The expectation for women to set boundaries calmly is unrealistic and unfair. It parallels the absurdity of asking women to call the police without anger if they witness a crime, illustrating how these societal scripts demand unrealistic levels of composure from women, even in distressing situations, thereby confining women.

Confining Women- Misogyny in Cultural Narratives: Stories like “Beauty and the Beast” perpetuate misogynistic tropes by suggesting that men need women to become better people. This harmful narrative places undue responsibility on women for men’s behavior and personal growth, reinforcing gender roles that confine women to supportive and transformative roles without considering their own needs for autonomy and respect.

Telling Women They Were Made For Service To OthersAnne (00:00): Last week, Jane and I wrapped up our talk discussing the Little Mermaid and how, in the Disney remake, they don’t rush into marriage right away. Instead, they use a black screen saying “a few years later” to imply they’ve been dating and getting to know each other.

My thought on this? They’re skipping the peaceful part because peace isn’t as entertaining as conflict. They don’t want to show a calm courtship where people genuinely connect, preferring to skip right past it. That’s where we’re picking up today.

Jane (00:46): Getting to know someone, building a relationship based on trust, respect, happiness, and support isn’t the story.

Anne (00:54): It’s boring. And you cover that with a “years later” black screen in two seconds.

Jane (01:01): Going through Disney’s catalog, one that is genuinely delightful is Encanto. I really liked that one. It was cute and real. The characters didn’t look like tiny, skinny, white stick figures. The women had diverse stories, reflecting that we’re not all the same.

I genuinely liked that one. But others, not so much, even Frozen, which is Disney’s nod to feminism, doesn’t quite hit the mark. Yes, it features two sisters not focused solely on men, but Ana turns out to be a Disney version of the manic pixie dream girl. She’s funny, clumsy, chatty, charming, and essentially there to ‘fix’ him. He starts off angry, violent, and mean.

Frozen’s Manic Pixie Dream Girl Doesn’t Overcome Misogynistic FoundationAnne (02:07): Christophe starts out really violent and mean.

Jane (02:09): He’s angry with her, doesn’t like her, and treats her meanly.

Anne (02:14): Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. But it’s not excessively mean.

Jane (02:18): He’s not beastly mean, but he is mean to her. He doesn’t like, respect, or think she can do anything. He doesn’t share anything with her, just dismissive and rude. So no, he’s not the beast. Disney’s moved past that, but scratch the surface, and you find a man who doesn’t look at her, take her seriously, or think she’s anything but stupid and incapable. Thus confining women to a set of certain characteristics.

Yet, she tumbles along happily. And slowly, he becomes a better person because of her. That’s the manic pixie dream girl’s role, to fix men. Meanwhile, Elsa has a different story. She doesn’t focus on a man, which seems feminist because for the first time, a Disney princess doesn’t need marriage for a happy ending.

Her story revolves around her dangerous power. She learns to use her power for others, not for herself, because using it for her own dreams is cruel and wrong, making her wicked. Using it for others lets her live a life of service and become a hero.

Confining Women: How Discounting Women’s Anger Confines WomenAnne (03:41): This reminds me of the advice women often get about setting boundaries without anger. Men do terrible things, emotional and psychological abuse, and sexual coercion, confining women. In therapy, it’s,

“Yes, set boundaries because his behavior is unhealthy, but do you need to be so angry?”

We’re told to set boundaries with compassion. If someone is hijacking a car and you call the police, would anyone say, “Make sure you’re not angry when you call”? Thus confining women to only being pleasant even in an emergency.

Jane (04:43): Because it’s particularly women being angry with men. That is so reprehensible that women anger immediately means they’re crazy, oversensitive, or overreacting. When men get angry, they’re just reacting. But when women get angry, they’re seen as overreacting and unreasonable just by being angry.

This myth essentially tells women that when someone’s cruel to them, they’re the problem if they’re angry, traumatized, or show visible signs of trauma. It’s not about the abuse or the man who did it; it’s about them needing to fix themselves, and then maybe they can fix him.

These structural institutions are designed to make women believe that when they’re abused, they’re the problem. So they continue to submit to the abuse, telling themselves they just need to try harder, instead of getting rightfully angry and furious, thus confining women.

Societal Expectations Oppress WomenAnne (5:51): Abuse is one thing. Then there’s the overall societal system of oppression that supports these ideas, keeping women from being true equals to men, from being taken seriously, expressing valid views, taking up space, and not being exploited for domestic labor. Once again confining women to a set of certain actions.

Jane (6:21): Absolutely. For instance, the fairytale princesses reinforce the idea that women wanting money is avaricious, while it’s admirable for men. But wanting money is about security. Having my own money means I don’t need a man; I might choose one, but I also might not. This idea is threatening because it means women can be independent and make their own choices, challenging all the myths that perpetuate abuse.

Anne (07:21): Exactly, exploitation and oppression continue.

Jane (07:24): One way systemic issues work is by making women do all the unpaid or domestic labor. There’s no joy in it like white singing while she works, because domestic labor is so much fun, and I love it, making me a good woman that a handsome principal would want to marry.

Cinderella does what the evil stepsisters want, seeking a handsome prince because he’s wealthy. They’re after the jewels and beautiful dresses, which supposedly makes them evil. But Cinderella, by not wanting those things, proves she deserves them by actively not wanting them. That’s the setup for women.

Challenging The Notion That Women Are The ProblemAnne (08:05): It’s like when an abuser says, “Well, if you wouldn’t have said something, I would’ve done it.”

Jane (08:10): Yes, exactly.

Anne (08:11): And you’re like, “Well, you didn’t do it. So then I said something. What are you talking about? If I wouldn’t have said something, you would’ve done it, so it should be done. But now that I said it, you’re not going to do it. So what?” It’s this circular insanity.

Jane (08:24): Yep, yep. But if you point that out, you’re being oversensitive and hysterical. So, you just get stuck in this logic loop that you can’t escape from until you’re able to step back and look at the myths and say, well, this is the story you’re trying to tell me.

And that story is just rubbish. It’s like beauty standards. They’re completely impossible to meet, designed to be impossible. You’re too skinny or not skinny enough. Too white or not white enough, too busty or not busty enough, too pretty or not pretty enough, too submissive or not submissive enough. You’re trying too hard or you’re not trying hard enough.

The point is, those standards are impossible to meet so that it can always be your fault if something goes wrong. And those fairytale princesses are part of that myth, but they’re everywhere. And you said before, your kids, my kids used to do this too. “Oh, why do we have to talk about feminism again, mom? Can’t we just watch a movie?” And I get it, but these ideas are most dangerous when we don’t see them.

Recognizing Dangerous Ideas About Confining Women in StorytellingAnne (09:33): I say it’s fine if you watch it, as long as we deconstruct it so you can start seeing this everywhere. But watching it without deconstructing it is dangerous, and I’m not going to allow that.

Jane (09:45): Absolutely. The most dangerous ideas are the ones we don’t realize we have. So, if they’re floating around in the back of your mind and you’re not able to look at them and see what they are and where they come from, that’s when people can use them against you.

And we all have them. I can’t remember if I said this the last time I was on with you, but I talk about this a lot because I’m such a feminist and I write about this and do this as my work, study, and play all the time. And still, when my kids were seven and nine,

My daughter had to say to me, “Hey, why is it my job to unload the dishwasher and my brother’s job to take the rubbish out?”

And I’m like, “Oh, darling, that’s the patriarchy.”

But I didn’t realize I was the one assigning the tasks and I didn’t see it. that. And if you don’t know what to look for, how can you fix it?

Playing the “What Would Make This Okay” GameAnne (10:39): You’re a woman after my own heart because I do those same things where I want to rewrite or redo something. So, I just want to play this game for a second, if you don’t mind. I want everyone to buy this book. It’s incredible. It’s called Fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children, so please get this book.

The game I want to play really quick is one I play with my kids, which is, what would make this appropriate? What would make this okay? And for Beauty and the Beast, my kids didn’t want to watch the new one. They hate the old one. And I said, “Let’s watch it.” I wanted to watch it with them. And of course, they’ve changed it.

(11:24): They didn’t, so we were all horrified. But then we played the game of what would’ve made it okay. She’s in the woods, her dad is sick and injured, and

He comes along saying, “Look, I know you think I’m scary, I have this castle here. We can take your dad there and hopefully get him better.”

She takes him there, it’s super nice, no problems. He looks scary but he’s fine, and lets her go. She comes back and he’s super nice. How hard can it be? And you know what changed him? It wasn’t her, but the spell. He was a jerk. The evil witch cast a spell on him to be a nice person. Take out the part where he’s confining women by by imprisoning her.

That’s when he realized, “Wait a minute, I’ve been a jerk. I need to be nice.”

Confining Women: The Gender Dynamics In Decision Making and StorytellingIt was that realization that changed him, which I know sounds like a woman changing him, but let’s overlook that. But really, how hard is it? Just think about it for two seconds. So the fact that producers aren’t aware of this blows my mind. It’s baffling why these issues still arise in mainstream movies from companies that should care but obviously don’t.

Jane (14:57): The issue might stem from the predominance of men in decision-making roles. It’s not that all these men are abusive or misogynistic, but there’s a common experience among women. When there’s a guy that just seems off, most women immediately understand when you mention it. But men?

They often don’t see it, making you feel silly for bringing it up. This lack of understanding can make it challenging for them to tell stories that resonate with these experiences. Most stories are told from a male perspective because most writers, showrunners, directors, and producers are men, thus confining women.

They simply don’t grasp what it’s like to feel threatened by someone just giving off bad vibes.

Going back to your game, I absolutely agree it would be a great game. What I’d like to see is not the Beast being the beast because an evil woman made him that way, but because he chose to be that way. What saves him is his own decision to change, without needing a woman to do it for him.

He shouldn’t rely on therapy as a manipulation tool but decide to be different on his own, without making the women in his life responsible for his improvement. Confining women to the role of saving men.

Anne: This is a common topic in our daily, online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group.

Discussing The Beauty And The Beast NarrativeAnne (15:19): Or even the evil witch in Beauty and the Beast, she shouldn’t be responsible for casting a spell to make him a better person.

Jane (14:57): I could talk about this for hours. The evil witch myth in fairy tales often portrays women with power as the villains, whether it’s through wisdom, experience, magic, or beauty.

Anne (15:19): Or even money, like an evil stepmother, right? She has the money.

Jane (15:25): Yeah, and what makes her evil is age or power. Age is a form of power, although we don’t usually acknowledge that in women. But that’s what makes an evil witch: a woman with power. In reality, when they used to burn witches, tens of thousands of women were killed and tortured for being witches.

Any woman with knowledge or power could be accused of being a witch and killed for it. That was reality. In those stories, any powerful woman becomes responsible for what a man does. That’s wrong. So, in Beauty and the Beast, a good man is cursed by a powerful woman into being a bad man, and it’s his fault. Then Beauty comes along and saves him.

Anne (16:12): Wait, was he originally a good man who got turned into a bad man? Because in the Disney movie, she puts the spell on him for being terrible and not nice to her.

Jane (16:23): What’s interesting about Beauty and the Beast is the many versions of the story. Almost every culture has one, and the similarities are amazing. In some versions, he’s a good man cursed by an evil witch. In others, he’s not bad, just a typical, spoiled young man from a wealthy family, and then he’s turned into a violent, abusive man.

Unpacking The Evil Witch Trope In Fairy TalesAnne (16:56): So, in the Disney version, when she needs help and he doesn’t help her, not knowing she’s an evil witch, it’s almost her fault he becomes so angry and bitter.

Jane (17:14): Because it’s always a woman’s fault when a man is angry and bitter. The number of women I’ve talked to about their abusive partners often say, “It’s not his fault. His mother was awful to him, or his ex did terrible things to him, and now he can’t trust a woman, except for me.” She’s got to prove she’s not like other girls.

Anne (17:39): That’s such a bad thing, that she’s not like other girls. Like what? That she has a voice and that she expects not to be exploited.

Jane (17:47): Or she’s not like the woman who turned him into this because she’s a good woman. She’s going to be nice to him, love him better, unlike the evil woman who made him this bitter, angry, misogynistic mess. This trope runs through so many stories, and it’s not just the Disney Princess stories.

When you start looking, all those romance movies, rom coms, and books from hundreds of years ago to tomorrow’s romance content, those tropes are woven into them. They’re sanitized now, so they’re not immediately recognizable, and you have to dig a bit deeper.

But underneath is always the same thing: a beautiful unselfish woman will save a hopeless or bad man from himself by being beautiful and unselfish, and then they get their happily ever after.

Jane Gilmore’s Plan To Interview Men Convicted of Rape(18:47): I also want to mention “Happily Ever After” as a goal. What is that? What does “Happily Ever After” actually look like? Thinking about what makes me happy, I’m planning to do a doctorate this year. I’ll be talking to men convicted of rape about their perceptions of women, sex, and sexual violence.

There’s nothing happy about this topic, but achieving it and hopefully discovering something we can use to reach boys and men before they end up in prison for such crimes will give me a sense of achievement like nothing else. If “Happily Ever After” means just sitting back like some Stepford wife, pretending everything’s perfect, that’s not happiness.

Happiness is so much more, and women have so much more they can do and achieve. Sometimes, it can come from having a beautiful home and happy children, which can bring pride and happiness. There’s nothing wrong with that at all.

Of course, having a beautiful home and family can bring peace and happiness, but that’s not abuse. It’s not about doing it to serve someone else because you’re scared of their reaction if it’s not done right, constantly trying to make them happy.

Acknowledging Women’s Strength To Rebuild After AbuseThat’s not for your happiness; it’s because you’re being controlled by someone else. But choosing to do that because it genuinely brings you pride, joy, and a feeling of fulfillment, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, it’s a sign you’re living your best life. But “Happily Ever After” isn’t about never facing problems or not having to work hard. It’s not expecting everything to be fine forever. That’s not happiness; it’s an illusion.

It’s interesting that many women don’t know what they want. Many want to be wives and mothers, which is awesome. But then, some think about working after their kids are out of the house because they feel they need something else, and they’re not sure what steps to take next. And that’s okay. Not knowing exactly what you want to do is alright. It doesn’t mean you can’t start with something.

A lot of this comes from being trained from babyhood that it’s wrong to think about what you want. We do a lot of awful things to boys and men in the name of gender roles, but one thing we tell them is to consider what they want and pursue it. But we tell girls and women that doing so makes them selfish, which is seen as bad.

So, it’s often really hard for women to think about what they want, what makes them happy, and their place in the world. We have to unlearn a lot just to learn that about ourselves. No one should underestimate how difficult that can be, how much work it takes, and how much you have to overcome.

Confining Women From Financial Independence(22:43): At a recent conference discussing my book, I had to remind myself to encourage people to purchase it. It’s challenging for a woman to stand in front of hundreds and assert, “Buy my book. The effort I’ve invested deserves your financial support.” As a writer, that’s your purpose.

You’re there because they’re interested in your book; naturally, you should prompt them to buy it. For him, this comes naturally, but for me, it doesn’t, and I have to work on it. I openly admit I’m being deliberately selfish in asking this because I’m rejecting the fairytale princess role.

Instead, I’m actively pursuing my ambitions, seeking financial security, and asking for support. This approach may make you uncomfortable, but it’s crucial to question why. I understand it’s hard to shake off these ingrained lessons, but dismantling these restrictive structures is essential. We’re not here solely to serve others.

At BTR, our six coaches work tirelessly as their full-time job, contributing to their household income. As a single mom of three with no financial support from child support or alimony, I rely entirely on my income. It’s surprising when we receive messages criticizing us for charging for our services.

However, to provide these services, I need financial independence. This criticism often stems from women who, due to financial control by an abusive partner, can’t access the help they need.

Exploring How Money Can Help Stop Confining WomenThis situation highlights the deeper issue of women’s financial independence and the ability to use their resources freely. It’s more than just the frustration of not being able to work for free; it’s about women lacking autonomy over their resources.

The notion that your role is to unconditionally serve and depend on a man is daunting to overcome. Yet, achieving emotional and psychological safety is a journey worth embarking on for many abuse victims, introducing them to a world of independence they hadn’t considered before.

The transition to viewing oneself as deserving of compensation for services, rather than serving without reward, is challenging yet necessary. Like many, I face questions about my fees for speaking engagements, but I remind others that my work sustains my basic needs allows me to continue my advocacy.

This question of compensation, surprisingly, is seldom directed at men in similar situations. Who would expect a father, solely responsible for his family’s financial well-being, to offer his services for free?

Anne (26:47): Full-time, eight hours a day, right? Yep. Full-time.

Overcoming Internalized Beliefs About Confining Women To Achieve True StrengthJane (26:50): You know, if a guy’s a single father, he’s often hailed as a hero. The bar for men is so low sometimes, I swear it’s in hell, and they still can’t meet it. But when a man says the service he provides, whether it’s my job, your job, or anything else, is valuable and that he works hard at it, it’s totally fair for him to ask for support to continue providing that service.

I get that many women, because of what we do, might not have the money. I try to work with that as much as I can, but offering my services for free would leave me homeless and unable to provide them. It would also feed into the myth I’m fighting against: that women shouldn’t want things like financial independence from a man or a decent house that’s theirs alone.

Anne (28:13): When we talk about physical safety, like in the Living Free workshop, it’s not just about being hit. Physical safety means having shelter, food, and being able to afford basic needs. If worrying about affording an apartment, food, or childcare makes you question your safety, then his actions are indeed a threat to your physical safety.

Jane (29:40): The myth starts when a relationship heads towards marriage, suggesting a woman’s role is to serve him rather than the relationship serving both. Being in that unsafe situation, wondering where you’ll live or how you’ll eat, is terrifying. Many of these situations are actively confining women.

The Importance Of Learning To Live Free From AbuseI’ve worked in domestic violence and seen women face the choice between violence or homelessness. It’s hard to climb out, but possible with work and self-belief. Some amazing women do it; it’s astounding that many do, showing incredible strength and courage. These women, overcoming beliefs of incapability, try and most succeed.

Watching women rebuild from abuse shows their immense strength. I wish I could show women who doubt their ability the strength of those who’ve rebuilt their lives, starting from thinking they couldn’t and proving they could.

Anne (32:05): Yeah, it’s incredible. Our Living Free workshop focuses on thinking a little differently about situations to make progress toward living free and feeling peace. It’s not just about escaping psychologically or emotionally abusive relationships at BTR. We also focus on post-divorce issues, dealing with emotional and psychological abuse due to co-parenting.

Every domestic violence shelter says divorce is the answer. I say it might be one step on your journey to safety. But for those of us who suffered severe emotional and psychological abuse post-divorce, like my eight years of post-divorce abuse, knowing how to live free from this is crucial.

So, check out The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. To learn more about Jane’s book, Fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children, go to janegilmore.com. You can also find it on Amazon. Jane, I’ve loved talking with you. Thank you so much for joining the podcast again.

Jane (33:16): Oh, thank you. It was so nice to be here. I love talking with you too. I always really enjoy our conversations. Thank you so much for inviting me.

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Did you know the underlying themes in fairy tales brainwash women and girls to not recognize abuse?

Fairy tales are, of course, a staple of many childhoods, offering stories of magic, adventure, and often, (apparently?) love conquering all. However, a closer examination reveals an unsettling undercurrent: these tales inadvertently lead women and girls to not recognize abuse.

This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with Jane Gilmore

Part One: 5 Ways Fairy Tales Brainwashed Women Not To Recognize Abuse (This Episode)

Part Two: The Double Standards Confining Women In Fairy Tales

1. The Damsel In Distress SyndromeFairy tales often feature a damsel in distress, rescued by a prince or male hero. This trope subtly suggests that women are dependent on men for their salvation, often enduring suffering from an evil woman until a man resolves their situation. This narrative reinforces the notion that women should be passive and patient, even in abusive scenarios, awaiting rescue rather than taking action.

2. Glorification Of Sacrifice And SufferingFairy tales often glorify characters, particularly women, who endure hardship and experience abuse with grace and patience, suggesting that suffering is noble and leads to a happy ending. This dangerous message can lead individuals to believe that tolerating abuse is virtuous and a necessary path to true love or happiness.

3. Romanticizing Situations Where Women Don’t Recognize AbuseSome fairy tales romanticize relationships that are abusive from the start. Characters who engage in stalking, kidnapping, or other forms of abuse are frequently depicted as men who despite these negative somehow change throughout the ordeal, which never happens in real life.

4. Lack Of Consent And AutonomyThe theme of lack of consent runs rampant in many fairy tales, with female characters often having little say in their fate or relationships. This lack of autonomy and consent is a form of psychological abuse that teaches women and girls to accept a passive role in their personal and romantic lives.

5. The Redemption Of AbusersFairy tales frequently conclude with the redemption of the abuser, suggesting that love can change abusive behavior. This narrative is harmful and unrealistic, as it can encourage individuals to stay in abusive relationships under the false hope of changing their partner.

In this episode, Anne interviews Jane Gilmore, a writer, speaker, and feminist, about her new book titled Fairy Tale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. Jane explains that the book was inspired by her realization of the deep misogyny and harmful messages present in classic fairy tales, particularly those aimed at young girls. What are the unhealthy themes in fairy tales that condition s to not recognize abuse?

• Women are often pitted against each other
• Non-consensual acts painted as desirable
• Stripping of women’s agency and promoting silence as virtuous
• Fairy tales often portray women as threats and villains, not men
• Women are responsible for fixing violent men with love and servitude

Why Didn’t I See it? How Beloved Fairy Tales Betrayed UsAnne (00:00): I have Jane Gilmore back on today’s episode. We interviewed her a while back. I hope that you got to listen to those episodes. They were incredible. Jane is a writer, speaker, and feminist. Welcome back, Jane.

Jane Gilmore (00:18): Thank you, Anne. It’s so lovely to be here.

Anne (00:21): Your episodes are incredible. I love talking to you. Jane’s back on today to talk about her new book, fairytale Princesses Will Kill Your Children. I love the title of that, the Little Mermaid is one of my personal nemesis. Let’s talk about this new book and how it helps women understand how fairly tales teach women not to recognize abuse. Jane, what gave you the idea that this book needed to be written?

Jane Gilmore (00:55): Well, I’m living in Melbourne and we had such a long lockdown during the first part of Covid, basically two years we were in and out of lockdown. You start just going into really weird places when you’re at home that long. I watched the Snow White movie on the Disney Channel. I haven’t watched it since I was a kid and haven’t really paid much attention to fairy tales since, they were horrific.

This is a children’s movie, for little girls and the misogyny is so deep, but it is more than that. It is this idealization of women being not just helpless and submissive, but actively participating in other people abusing them. I am thinking, oh, this is just because it’s old. This is not what they really like.

Why Do Fairy Tales Teach Us Not to Recognize Abuse?(01:45): I started looking into them and the five stories that I chose for this book. Which I retold along with an essay about Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, and The Little Mermaid. But when I really start looking into them, it is so clear that these fairy tales teach women not to recognize abuse. Snow White is about making other women the enemy. Beauty is obviously about consent.

Cinderella is about women’s unpaid labor that, not just uncomplaining, but enjoying our manipulation to serve mostly men. The Little Mermaid is about staying silent in the face of somebody diminishing you constantly.

Anne: So many women go through this and desperately need support, which is why we have our daily, online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group.

Jane: Yeah, women do need support to see how these themes affect their daily lives. In Beauty and the Beast is coercive control, if you love him enough, he will turn into your handsome prince. This angry, dangerous, violent man just needs you to love him more. And if he doesn’t turn into your handsome prince, it’s your fault for not trying harder.

Analyzing Misogynistic Themes In Classic Fairy Tales(02:48): And that’s what these fairytales are about teaching women and girl not to recognize abuse. They’re telling little girls that the way to be a good woman, a proper woman, a fairytale princess, is the defining characteristic of what they call unselfish. Which is to not ask anything for yourself, to not think that you deserve respect, kindness, agency, money.

To even ask for those things, to even want those things,even if you don’t ask for them, makes you morally culpable. Oh, aren’t they pretty? And they get the handsome Prince and everybody gets married and lives happily ever asked her, and isn’t that wonderful? The underlying message is that, it is wrong for you to want anything for yourself, including self-respect.

Anne (03:36): I have so much to talk to you about and so many questions. I want to tell a quick story of a friend of mine who finally divorced her first abuser. She started dating and she met this man and she told me how wonderful he is and how great he is, and his ex was just such a gold digger.

I said, “Whoa, what? Okay, red flag there, right? You’ve got another abuser on your hands.”

Challenging The “Tales” About “Gold Diggers” And AmbitionAnd he said, “She’s such a gold digger, she just wanted me for my money.”

Then she says, “Because he has a lot of money, but I don’t care about that. That’s not what I’m interested in. I just want a good relationship.”

They went on a trip and he said, “Get anything you want, what would you like to buy?”

(04:23): And she said, “Oh, no, no, no, I’m not like that. I’m not into your money like your ex, I don’t want anything.”

She thought she had a great trip and he was so kind and nice and that everything went really well.

I said, “He’s already groomed you to say that you don’t want money or need anything. And if you marry him, you realize you’ll be like, Hey, I’m going to the grocery store. And he’ll be like, what again? You just married me for my money, like my ex, he’s setting you up for this.”

Of course, I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. I should have kept my mouth shut.

I said to her, “If you’re going to continue dating him, if he says that again, what would you like? Say, oh, I want this and buy something expensive, something that’s like 150 bucks, not super expensive, even if you don’t want it, if he says get anything you want and then you get something, try it out. See what happens.”

Examining Gender Stereotypes And Dynamics In RelationshipsI said, “Never ever say I’m not a gold digger. I’m not like that.”

Say, “Oh, that makes sense that your wife wanted a roof over her head in groceries. Most women do. Yeah.”

Jane Gilmore (05:39): To me the warning sign is always, if you take the word that they’re trying to get you to prove that you’re not like gold Digger is a perfect one. Is there a role equivalent? Is there a word that can apply to any gender? Because if it’s just about women, it’s tying into, are you a good woman?

Are you not like other girls? Are you going to prove to me that you can be all the things that I can use to manipulate you? And Gold Digger is such a good one because in men that’s called ambition and it’s a good thing.

Anne (06:07): The other one is that she said the same woman, his ex never gave him any sex.

I said, “Anytime a man says that to you, this is how you respond. You say, oh, I’m glad that she did what she wanted to. I love it when women do that.”

Jane Gilmore (06:40): Yes. There is a study that found women become less interested in sex, the longer a relationship goes on. If you flip it around and go, what if it’s men become less sexually appealing in a relationship? In the long term because they do less to earn your respect, trust, joy, sense of fun, and your desire.

You are constantly on edge and afraid. Nobody feels sexy when they’re walking on eggshells all the time.

Themes That Don’t Recognize Abuse Found In Fairy TalesSomebody is saying to you, ‘This is your fault. You are not interested in sex, you are not trying hard enough.”

They are not taking any of the blame, this is our relationship and we share in what goes on here. Again, massive red flag.

Anne (07:37): As you studied all these different princess fairytales, what were some of the overarching themes that you saw?

Jane Gilmore (07:51): I was a bit surprised about some of them, not because they were shocking, but because I didn’t realize how deeply embedded they are in this fairytale princess myth. One of them is this constant idea that men are not responsible for anything really, that the villain is always other women. They are not teaching women to recognize abuse.

The wicked stepmother, the wicked stepsisters. The man is either the prize that you get for being unselfish, the handsome prince, or he’s the father who has no responsibility at all.

Every fairytale princess, her mother dies when she’s a baby except for a sleeping beauty. And the mother doesn’t come into the story at all and the father is the king who might send people out to run a mission or something, but he’s never responsible for his daughter. He marries another woman because of course he couldn’t be expected to bring up a child on his own.

We Need To Recognize AbuseAnne: When I wrote The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, I want to highlight that we’ve all been exposed to these types of myths our whole lives and what we can do to get them out of our heads. Women have really enjoyed the analogies in Living Free and how it’s replaced these societal scripts that caused everyone not to recognize abuse.

Jane (08:40): Yeah, it takes a long time to dig through all this stuff. The evil stepmother becomes the villain and there is no point in the story where the men who make choices that affect women’s lives have any responsibility for those choices. Snow White for instance, the original story by the Grimm Brothers is shocking. Snow White is seven years old in the story. She’s a seven year old child.

She’s taken off to the woods by a hunter under orders from her evil stepmother and the hunter is ordered to kill her. In the original story, he’s supposed to cut out her heart and lungs to take back to the evil stepmother. If she can eat them she won’t show visible signs of aging, the most wicked thing any woman can do is visibly age and still expect to have a place in the world.

(09:31): Snow White is seven she finds the Seven Dwarves. She immediately takes on all their domestic labor. She sings songs about how wonderful it is that she gets to do all the work to look after seven men and how much she loves it. Next, she’s poisoned by the evil stepmother and they think she’s dead. They put her in a glass box and a handsome prince comes past and sees a dead child in a glass box. All of this glorifies when women and girls don’t recognize abuse.

The Abusive Conclusions Of Fairy TalesHe says, oh, ‘That’s beautiful. That’s mine. I want it.” The Seven Dwarves immediately recognize, of course he’s a rich, powerful man, he should have the beautiful dead girl that he wants. Then he says to her, “Brilliant, you’re awake. Now you can be my wife.” And she says, “Thank you. Yes, I’d love that.”

That’s the Snow White story. And that is the one that I rewrote. I didn’t change the plot at all. I just rewrote it to point out all these things about just, wow, little girls and little girls still dress up as Snow White. They want to be like Snow White.

This idea that other women are the thing that is going to put young girls in danger, which we know is just not true. I’m not saying that other women don’t have their problems. They absolutely do. We can get into all kinds of discussions about that, but other women are not the threat to your life. Other women are not going to commit the kind of abuse against you that your male partner will.

Nowhere in the fairytale Princess’s story is the handsome prince ever the problem. The story ends when they get married and the marriage is never a part of the story. It’s why the mother dies at the beginning of all of fairytale Princess stories because marriage and children and the relationship itself is not the fairytale princess myth.

The myth is to be good, beautiful, submissive, kind, and unselfish. Do everything you can to prove how much you deserve a handsome prince, then your story ends. Women are being told not to recognize abuse and be quiet about it.

Fairy Tales About Women That Set Women Up Not To Recognize AbuseAnne (11:24): What’s interesting, it’s almost like that’s where the man wants it to end, right? He’s like, “If I can set this up and be like, okay, you’re beautiful, you do all the domestic labor, you don’t have a voice. I am your savior and I can do no wrong.”

We end there with marriage, he owns you and you have to do whatever he says because of coverture laws. You’re literally his property, back in the day when these were written, and you’re my domestic slave. That is a happy ending for him.

Jane Gilmore (12:00): These are the stories that we all grew up on, and it’s not even just the Grimm brother stories, which were horrific. The Disney stories, Disney Plus has over a hundred million subscribers. If I’ve got little kids and I’m saying, “Okay, God, I just need an hour to myself.” Put them down in front of the electronic babysitter. I know it’s not ideal, but we’ve all done it.

Come on. And you think, well, the Disney Channel, they’ve got to be safe there. Then you have a look at Sleeping Beauty, which in the quintessential fairytale Princess, Sleeping Beauty is the first published one I could find, from Italy in about 1500. Her name is Talia, Talia has the Curse to make her fall asleep.

​​(12:50): It’s not a handsome prince, it’s a king from a neighboring country. Comes in and finds her asleep, looks at her. He tries to wake her up, and fails. He impregnates her. Now we know what the word for that is, right? That’s rape. Rape. That’s rape.

If You’re Not Teaching Consent You Are’t Teaching Women To Recognize AbuseShe eventually wakes up after she’s had twins. She is so delighted to find that while she is unconscious, she is impregnated by somebody she doesn’t remember and has babies. He meanwhile has forgotten about her, and this is specifically in the story, he remembered her and came back presumably to do it again.

Jane Gilmore (13:28): Yeah, yeah. Finds her and the babies. She says, “How wonderful to meet you. Finally, the father of my children, I’m in love. Let’s get married.” He says, “Okay, sure. There’s just a bit of a problem. I’ve already got a wife, but nevermind. Let’s go back to my place and we’ll find the wife and I’ll kill her and then we can get married and everything will be fine.”

The original story, called Sun, Moon, and Talia, it’s available online. It’s not under copyright anymore. They go back to his place, he tries to kill his wife or he says he’s going to kill his wife, but then she tries to kill Sleeping Beauty first and the children because

Anne (14:02): She’s the bad one, not him.

Jane Gilmore (14:04): She’s the evil one, not him. He’s the hero of this story. She fails in her attempts to kill Sleeping Beauty and the children, she does this by telling the servants to kill the children and serve them up to Sleeping Beauty and the King as dinner. The servants say, “Maybe we won’t kill and cook the babies.”

No, they tell the king. He sets his wife on fire and burns her alive, and then marries Sleeping Beauty and they live happily ever after. Such a cute story.

Anne (14:35): This is horrifying

Sleeping Beauty’s Teaches Women Not To Recognize AbuseJane Gilmore (14:37): So bad. And obviously Disney sanitized this a lot because we would never let our children watch that movie. Essentially it’s the same story. She’s asleep, she sleeps through her entire story. This is how much agency that story wants to give women.

You are unconscious while we tell your story. Handsome Prince comes in, kisses her while she’s asleep, which is Disney’s version of rape, and she wakes up and, oh, my handsome prince, how wonderful. Let’s get Married. That’s her story, the idea that a woman needs to be conscious, talking, having a personality, having ideas, having thoughts, having feelings, and desires for a man to fall in love with her is abhorrent.

Sleeping Beauty must be unconscious for the Handsome Prince to want her, is all the agency that is given to little girls in this story.

Anne (15:31): I love your stuff, Jane. You are so smart. You say it and I’m like, “That is so good. Why didn’t I think of that?” Love it.

Jane Gilmore (15:40): Honestly, this is how I spent most of lockdown, reading through these stories thinking, what does that mean? Where does it come from? That’s the original story that comes from, WOW. That was my pandemic experience.

Anne (15:53): It is shocking. Disney tries to be inclusive and modern and whatever. When the new live action Beauty and the Beast came out with Emma Watson. I thought, surely they have fixed this, to not be so absolutely terrible. To fix the Stockholm Syndrome part, which it’s not a thing.

Women are just trying to survive. They’re not falling in love with anyone. Surely they have fixed this, but it is exactly the same as their cartoon.

Modern Adaptations Still Don’t Recognize AbuseI thought, what is happening? Did they not notice? In my head, I have it rewritten so it works perfectly so that they could fall in love and she not be coerced and or abused and or treated badly, and it would make sense. I couldn’t believe that they did the same thing over again.

They seem like they’re trying to be committed to not being misogynists. I just couldn’t wrap my head around that. What year did that come out, 2017, that’s almost after #metoo.

Jane Gilmore (17:06): I had exactly the same reaction when I watched it because Emma Watson’s surely going to fix all this. Right? I had exactly the same reaction as you. It is absolutely a story of control and abuse in both of them. He’s so angry and he’s punching walls around her and he’s terrifying her.

The solution for this is for her to love him more, do more to turn him into the handsome Prince. He has no responsibility at all to change his behavior. That’s up to her. If she loves him enough, his behavior will just magically change, but he has no responsibility at all.

That’s the story Beauty and the Beast is telling women. When a man is so angry and violent around you, that you are genuinely terrified, even before he’s physically violent. Then it is your responsibility to try harder to please him. When I started going into these stories, as I said, I watched the Snow White movie, and I was just so horrified by it that at the time, I wasn’t planning on a book or anything just for my own satisfaction.

Reimagining Fairy Tales Through a Feminist Lens(18:29): I had to rewrite it. And then because I get obsessive about these things, I couldn’t let it go. And I started looking at some of the other movies and I started rewriting them as well, but I couldn’t. When I got to Sleeping Beauty, I couldn’t rewrite the same plot.

I could not write a story about a woman where she is unconscious throughout her story. I changed it, and I am far from the first writer or feminist to ever do this. There’s a long and very glorious history of feminist rewriting fairy tales to point out how horrific they are. I wanted to show what women’s stories can be like if they’re not that horrific.

Sleeping Beauty, I actually just went, okay, I’m going to do the full feminist fantasy. What would the Sleeping Beauty story be if it was written by Women for Women about the sort of lives, in an ideal world, that we wish we had?

(19:20): I went to the full extreme of the Snow White story, which I rewrote according to the Snow White plot. Just to point out how horrific it is, and that is a whole lot of fun. It felt redemptive. I felt I’d taken control of it. The next one I did is Beauty and the Beast, and I went back and forth between rewriting it so that she had a good outcome, a good story.

Rewriting Fairy Tales to Undo the BrainwashingI thought how do I write this so that she has a good, equal, respectful, and happy relationship? In all of these fairytale stories, the prize at the end for the Fairytale Princess is marriage, is a man, is a relationship. There are so many other things that women want, that we do, that we work for, that we take pride in.

This is the reality of that violent, controlling, abusive man. Yes, I should actually write this and then I should publish it. People may disagree with it, they may not like it, they may not read it, that’s fine. Let’s do more and put them out into the world.

(20:19): There are so many stories about the Happily Ever After endings, and I didn’t want to write another one. I rewrote a couple of them with a happy ending that didn’t relate to having a good relationship with a man. It is about other things that women can want, but with Beauty and the Beast. I thought maybe I do give her the ending of the relationship, but a realistic one of what a relationship actually looks like. When you start with a man who’s frighteningly angry at the beginning, who is controlling and abusive fairly early on, and then you get married.

What does that relationship actually look like? How does that really end? It does not end happily ever after. There’s just no way that relationship ends happily. That one took me to some pretty dark places actually, and I was a bit hesitant about publishing it. It ended the way I know too many of these relationships do.

How Little Mermaid Teaches Us Not To Recognize Abuse(21:20): This is when I start to think, actually, you know what? I really do need to publish these because this is the point of what I’m doing, pointing out what these fairytale princesses are telling little girls and young women about what they should expect from their lives, what they should hope for, what they should plan for and dream of.

This is the reality of that violent, controlling, abusive man. Yes, I should actually write this and then I should publish it. People may disagree with it, they may not like it, they may not read it, that’s fine. Let’s do more and put them out into the world.

Jane Gilmore (21:58): Next, I went on to The Little Mermaid and I watched the Disney movie, which is all very cute and awful. Then went back and read the Hans Christian Anderson version, the original story.

If you want to be truly horrified, read the Hans Christian Anderson story.

It’s an entire short story written to tell women to keep quiet. If you are in pain, stay silent. If you are bleeding, don’t upset people by telling anyone about it. In the original story, they cut her tail to turn it into legs, and every step she takes feels like she’s walking on knives.

She leaves a trail of bloody footprints behind her with every step she takes, but she smiles and dances for the handsome princes because that’s what he wants her to do. It’s whole message is for women to be quiet and not recognize abuse.

Sometimes It Seems Healthy, But If You Look Closer It Still Teaches Women Not to Recognize AbuseAnne (22:54): Wow. Can that be interpreted? I mean, I’m not trying to justify the story. Like I said, the Little Mermaid is my nemesis, I don’t like it. In the original version, could that be interpreted to say it’s going to be painful to you if you try to change for a man? Or is that not, that’s not how it could be interpreted.

Jane Gilmore (23:14): Oh, look, I wish that was the case. I wish I could say yes. I wish I could say yes, and that’s what we’re aiming for here. No, it’s absolutely about women. You will experience pain in trying to change for a man, and that will only work if you stay silent about it, and eventually he might love you.

The interesting thing in the Little Mermaid, is he falls in love with somebody else who’s a proper woman, a real woman. She can praise the handsome prince and agree with him and laugh at all his jokes. The little mermaid kills herself. I swear to God, this is what happens in the original story.

She throws herself off the side of the ship and angels come to her and say, it’s okay because you chose to die rather than cause pain to the handsome Prince and his new bride. You get to live as a sort of spirit guide for the next 300 years, and if you do enough, you will eventually go to heaven. That’s her salvation for failing to win. The handsome Prince is 300 years of silent, unrecognized servitude to the world to earn her place in heaven. People don’t recognize abuse in this story.

Modern Attempts Don’t Stop the Abusive FoundationsAnne (24:26): Like a nun. Yeah. If you can’t get a husband, then the next best thing you can do is do service to the world in another way. Yes, whatever we do we must not recognize abuse.

Jane Gilmore (24:35): Yes, but you have to die so that nobody can see you or hear you doing it. You do it as a ghost. It’s staggering. This is the Little Mermaid story. Now, obviously, again, Disney sanitized it and it has the happy ever after ending.

Anne (24:50): Well, even the Disney version is just awful. You have to give up your voice for a man to like you. He falls in love with her. My kids, they hear me say this stuff, right?

They’re like, “Mom, why do we always have to talk about misogyny? Why can’t we just watch a movie?” And I say, “Because it’s blatant. I have to point it out to you.” Anyway, they loved at the end of the new one, the one that just came out where it says years later. Did you notice that?

Jane Gilmore (25:21): I haven’t seen that one. I was honestly reaching the point where I just couldn’t take it anymore. I’d done these five stories and I’d literally watched dozens and dozens of Disney movies.

Trust, Respect, And SupportAnne (25:31): Totally, totally. In the new one at the end, instead of getting married, she can talk and they don’t get married. I mean they don’t want to recognize abuse, from the past version. Then, spoiler alert, it says years later. You assume that they’ve gotten to know each other and then they decide to get married.

Jane Gilmore (25:52): Again, marriage is the happy ending and they’ve tacked on this little bit at the end.

Anne (25:57): Exactly. My kids thought it was really funny. They were like, “Yeah, right, just throw in, years later, and it solves everything?” They were being really sarcastic about it. It is better.

Jane Gilmore (26:08): Because it’s not the story, that’s not the getting to know somebody and the developing a relationship of trust and respect and happiness and support. That’s not the story.

Anne (26:18): That’s boring, and you cover that in years later. It seems these fairy tales are made not to teach women to recognize abuse, black screen. That takes two seconds. Jane and I are going to pause the conversation here. We’re going to continue our conversation next week, so stay tuned.

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Have you ever asked, “Is it wrong to want to leave my emotionally abusive husband?” Many women in the BTR community yearn for emotional and psychological safety. If you’re asking yourself this same question here are some things to consider:

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Karen DeArmond Gardner.

Part One: The Fear of Starting Over and How to Push Through It

Part Two: I Want to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband (This Episode)

1. What would you tell someone else if they asked?Pretend like you’re having a conversation with someone else. Listen to your own story as if you’re someone else. What would you say to this “other” person? Would she be wrong for wanting to leave an emotionally abusive husband?

2. What would a domestic abuse expert say?Since most therapists, clergy, and almost everybody else doesn’t understand the ins and outs of domestic abuse, especially when it comes to emotional and psychological abuse, they’re not the right people to ask about whether or not your desire to leave your emotionally abusive husband is appropriate.

Anne Blythe, M.Ed, Producer & Host of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women assess their level of emotional safety everyday. At BTR.ORG emotional safety is the top priority. So rather than asking yourself if it’s wrong to leave or even if you should leave, Anne would support you in your journey to discover what it means to be emotionally safe and to take steps to become emotionally safe, in whatever way works for you.

1. Who told you it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband?If you’re wondering if it’s wrong to leave an emotionally abusive husband, consider why you’re even asking this question in the first place. Does the question even make sense? Who has told you or where have you picked up the idea that it could be wrong to leave an emotionally abusive relationship?

Anne wrote The BTR.ORG Meditations so that women can look inside themselves to sort out their own thoughts from the society scripting in their heads to determine what the is the best course of action to take. Start listening to your intuition, rather than people who don’t understand what it’s like to live in your situation.

1. Consider asking, “How do I establish emotional safety,” instead of, “Can I get to emotional safety?”One thing’s for sure, all women can get to emotionally safety. So it’s important to focus on HOW. Anne developed The BTR.ORG Living Free and Message Workshops for specifically this reason – to help victims get to emotional safety. To learn more about HOW, visit btr.org/livingfree

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Karen DeArmond Gardner.

Part One: The Fear of Starting Over and How to Push Through It

Part Two: I Want to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband (This Episode)

Whether you’re fully committed to separating from your husband, or have gone back and forth on this painful decision, consider these tips and strategies Anne and Karen discuss in the transcript below.

Dreaming BigAnne (00:00): Karen DeArmond Gardner is back, we’re talking about dreaming big and how even just daydreaming can help victims start making their way to safety. Also about The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop where we help women begin to change their thoughts in order to start making their way to safety. So we’re going to join the conversation right there.

Have You Enrolled in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop Yet?Anne: That’s one of the things that we talk about in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. So we have a workshop that helps women know how to think about the situation and how to communicate with an abuser in a strategic way in order to get to safety and then set boundaries in order to get too emotional and psychological safety. One of those things is to dream.

So many women just have stopped because they think, I have to be content with this. It will never get any better than this because that’s what they’ve been told. I find it to be very satisfying to say, no, there’s so many options for you, but it’s really hard to see that when you’re still being traumatized over and over.

Let’s talk about women who are trying to heal, but they’re still being traumatized by the abuser repeatedly. Is it possible to heal while you’re actively being traumatized? We talk about this all the time in BTR.ORG Group Sessions.

Don’t Announce to the World That You Want to LeaveKaren (04:04): Leaving is not something you announce to the world. I don’t care what the TVs or movies say. You don’t announce to him, I’m going to leave you. You don’t do that. Become an actress and if you’re thinking about it, you put on the face, you react as you normally would.

You don’t let ’em know that your thinking is changing, though they’re very perceptive at noticing little nuances. It’s a matter of protecting yourself and your kids, and then when you do leave, then there’s a whole new level of trauma.

Now, I have not experienced this at all, but I have watched, I have talked to the women, I interact with them, and what they deal with after is horrible. Whether you stay in an abusive marriage for 30 or 40 years or you leave the trauma, it stays because you’ve got to deal with this man until your kids are adults.

Some of these women do it, the strength that it takes for them to stand and to raise their kids and to fight for themselves and to fight for the kids is absolutely extraordinary.

Discussion on Post-Separation AbuseAnne (05:13): Yeah, it’s rough. I had it for eight years post-divorce of post-divorce abuse, and it is just awful. I’m delivered now, which is amazing and freeing. I do think though the post-divorce abuse that a lot of people for good reason are really worried about, and they choose to stay.

For me, I found it to be better because at least it wasn’t in my house. At least it was coming from the outside and I had a safe space where I could breathe.

It’s really, really rough and sometimes safety is the healing. When you’re safe, you can kind of not always, and healing does need to be intentional, but it’s almost instantaneous healing at times when you really are safe and they cannot harm you anymore.

Because that’s such a rare situation if someone gets abandoned for example, or there are times where someone miraculously does not have to interact with the abuser anymore for any reason.

There’s still all those questions that come up and then his voice in your head and all the societal scripting and also the anger of how did other people not help me with the secondary trauma?

That’s really hard when you’re thinking about getting to safety when you are like, this is obviously emotionally unsafe for me, it’s psychologically unsafe. I need to start making my way. I need to start being the operative word there. What do you do when the start stops you, when the starting is the thing that you can’t quite do?

Should You Leave: What Do You Do When The “Start” Stops You Karen (06:55): Yeah, it is, and it’s so funny that you say it that way because the start can stop you. It is hard to know what to do. There’s a scripture that is, and even if you don’t believe in the Bible, but this part is so true, it says that God did not give us a spirit of fear timidity, but of power, love, and a sound mind when we’re afraid.

Number one, there is no love, fear and love cannot occupy the same space. It’s one or the other. It’s like taking two magnets and they’ll automatically go together. If you turn one around and you try to put the magnet together, they will shoot apart, and that’s what fear and love does.

If you’re living in fear, you’re not living in love. Love has gone out of the equation because the abusers keep you in a cycle of chaos.

How Does Gaslighting Factor In?(07:52): I don’t mean in a cycle of like he’s abusive, then he’s not. I mean a cycle, constant cycle of confusion, which is why they use gaslighting so that you will question everything that you know is true and he’ll have you questioning that and you will doubt yourself at every single turn.

How in the world do you start over when you can’t even think a straight thought that if you make a decision, what if you’re wrong? Because he would set you up for failure in making decisions and you would make a decision and then it would be wrong because no matter what you did, it was going to be wrong. Now how do you make a decision?

I mean, it sounds almost impossible, and that’s why we say hard doesn’t even begin to explain the struggle of regaining your sound mind, your correct thinking, to taking your power back, to take your love back, to even care about yourself enough that is this really what I’m worth?

Where Did the Eggshells Go?(09:04): I have no more value than to be whatever he wants me to be. And now you’ve got to work through the battle. That’s the obstacle we face is our own brain because it is brain science that our brain gets jumbled up, and how do we undo that to be able to think clearly?

That’s part of what we’re dealing with is undoing all of that. And you mentioned it earlier about when you become safe, there’s something about that that all of a sudden you recognize that the chaos is gone and you may not notice it first because it’s a strange feeling. It’s odd. You don’t feel like you’re walking around on the eggshells all the time. Where did the eggshells go?

And I don’t have to watch out for the landmines. There’s going to be a hidden landmine there that I might step on. I don’t have to worry about that. As you navigate that, it is through that your brain will start getting some clarity, but those clarity moments are sometimes hard because you have to face the hard truths that he never loved you.

Should I Leave if He Doesn’t Know How to LoveAnne (10:22): Not because you’re not lovable, because you’re absolutely lovable, but because that’s not how he operates. He doesn’t even know how to love.

Karen (10:30): He doesn’t. He can put on a good show to get you to marry him and say all the right words. He’s a counterfeit. He’s a conman. Think of a conman.

If you’ve ever watched the show about conman, and I think there was a TV show that came out this last season and I got to where it was too hard to watch the constant con going on to trick people, but it is literally what they do, and they keep you guessing and wondering what’s true and what’s not.

And that’s part of the healing process is determining what’s true and what isn’t. Am I valuable? Am I crazy? You feel crazy? That’s a word. You can feel that. That doesn’t mean you can feel unlovable. That doesn’t mean you are, because that’s how the abuser makes us feel, to feel unlovable, to feel all of these things.

And that doesn’t mean we discount them because we need to pay attention to those feelings because they’re telling us that something is off, that something is wrong because those emotions are valid. So anybody that says, oh, don’t listen to your feelings and your emotions, they’ll lie to you. No, they’re not. They’re telling you something’s wrong and to pay attention to them.

The Difficulty of Divorce, The Hope of SafetyAnne (11:46): For so many victims, I try to have this dichotomous conversation and you just mentioned it about how hard it is going to be and these are all the obstacles you’re going to face. Recently I talked to one and I was like, make sure you don’t tell your clergy because then he’s going to pull him in and he’s going to get you guys in couple therapy and you don’t want to do that.

(12:40): She had decided she wanted to leave, so I wasn’t trying to get her to divorce. She had already decided she wanted to do that, and I said, well, just go for it then. Otherwise it’s going to push you back like a year.

It Is Going to be the Most Worthwhile Endeavor to Deliver Yourself from AbuseI was trying to warn her about how hard it was going to be and all the obstacles she was going to face, which is important to warn victims about when they’re trying to get to safety. And then also talking about that and then talking about the hope, sharing that even though it’s going to be very hard, it is going to be the most worthwhile endeavor to deliver yourself from abuse. You will be very grateful that you took action in order to do that.

And for women of faith, you will see miracles along the way. They might seem really small. You might wonder, why is this happening? God cannot know because he’s not helping me. And then maybe a year later or two years later, you’ll realize, oh, he was helping me.

I just didn’t realize it. Can you talk about as we advocate for victims and as we educate women about abuse, helping them understand how hard it’s going to be, and then also giving them hope at the same time, and why those two things are so important?

Should You Leave? Your Mind Will ClearKaren (13:53): I agree. We have to tell people how hard it’s going to be when they leave, that it’s not necessarily going to get easier, but it’s not forever that what we go through. It is not forever. It is for now what you’re feeling. What you’re dealing with is normal, feeling crazy is normal, but it’s not forever.

Your mind will clear. You will as you heal, as you discover what you were in and discover more of who you are, the hope grows. And it’s hard to see in the beginning because we live by the end of our nose. We can’t see beyond our end of our nose, but it’s as if that hand gets filler, like your hand is in front of your face.

The longer you’re out, the more aware you become, the more healing you get. It gets further and further away until suddenly you see, wow, there are trees out here.

What Happened to Us Does Not Have to Define Us(14:49): Wow, when did the sky get so blue? What happened here? And everything is about hope. It’s not based on our religious beliefs or it’s the fact that hope is built within us, and it’s that where we keep our eye on the hope for our future because it will get better.

Because there was never a promise that life was going to be easy. We have evil in this world. There are evil people, and God gave us free will to choose and to not to choose, and people made really bad decisions on our behalf and to harm us. Now when we leave, we get to start making decisions, and if it’s a wrong one, okay, we learn from our mistakes.

That’s part of the process of learning from right decisions and even wrong ones. But I believe that out of the healing is the ashes. What happened to us does not have to define us. That is not who we are. It was what was done to us. It is not who we are. Hope is so important because the hard part is choosing to live again, but it’s beautiful, it’s hard and glorious and amazing all at the same time.

Do I Need to Leave to Get to Emotional Safety?Anne (16:14): I always want victims to know that it’s possible. I don’t want them to ask the question, can I leave. The question I want them to ask is how. I know that a peaceful life is possible. I know that it’s been promised to me in the scriptures, for example, if you’re a woman of faith, but just logically, it is possible to be able to choose the life that you want to live.

Instead of saying, can I do it, don’t even think that you can put that question in the trash and never ever get it out and only ask how I would like a life of peace. How do I get to emotional safety? Should I leave? How do I get to psychological safety and then just start taking one step at a time?

Karen (17:05): Yes, the question becomes, why not me? Why not me? Not why me did he choose me? Why did this happen to me, but why not me for hope, for my dreams?

Anne (17:18): Absolutely. Well, Karen, thank you so much for spending time with us. I appreciate your thoughts and I’m so grateful that you shared your story.

Karen (17:29): Oh, well, I am so appreciative to interact with you and to talk with you and just be able to shine more light on this really ugly world of domestic abuse and bring hope.

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If you don’t want a divorce, there are several alternatives to consider. The fear of starting over can be a major hurdle. After 30 years of emotional and psychological abuse, a survivor shares her story.

This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with Karen DeArmond Gardner.

Part One: I Don’t Want A Divorce. But I Don’t Know What Else I Should Do (This Episode)
Part Two:I Want to Leave My Emotionally Abusive Husband

I found myself thinking, “What am I going to do? What’s going to happen?” I was about to turn 70, and I knew I needed emotional safety. – Karen DeArmond Gardner

Reasons Why Women Don’t Want A DivorceRegardless of age, most women feel intense fear and concern about divorce. I’ve never met a woman who wants a divorce. Women don’t want a divorce because answering this questions seems daunting:

• How will I provide for myself and my children?
• What if this was my only chance at love and partnership?
• Isn’t divorce wrong?
• What if he changes at some point, and I miss out on it?
• What if I spend the rest of my life alone?
• Where will I live?
• What if everyone believes his version of the story?
• I’ve never worked, how will I get a job?

These are perfectly valid reasons you don’t want a divorce. Anne and Karen dive into ways that you can work through these fears in this episode. Further, The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop offers practical strategies and exercises that you can practice again and again to free yourself from fear and proactively work toward confidence and empowerment.

When You Say to Yourself: I Don’t Want A Divorce?Anne (02:43): Moving from hopelessness to hope, Karen left her emotionally abusive husband.

Karen is a woman of faith, so if you are agnostic or atheist or anything else, you’re welcome here.

Everyone is always welcome. If you come on the podcast, you’re always welcome to share from your own faith or non-faith perspective. Karen and I don’t share the same faith tradition. So we’ll be talking about faith each from our own experience and perspective.

Let’s start, Karen, with your story. Can you tell me a little about your story?

Share Your Story of Starting If You Don’t Want A DivorceKaren (04:12): Ha, where do you start in your story when you left or when you got into it? I stayed 30 years in an abusive marriage, but at 20 years old, I didn’t know that. He was charming and kind, and he was funny. He was a good listener. I told him secrets I had never told anybody in my entire life, and I had no idea.

Now were there red flags? Yes. Do you pay attention to him? You do, but they excuse him. It’s like, well, that’s a one-off because he’s this guy over here. He’s always telling me how amazing I am, and so it just must be like a one-off.

We got married after two and a half months of meeting. I’m just going to tell you don’t do that. I had no idea what I was stepping into, noticing things changed, but I didn’t have anything to compare it to.

Because my father was abusive, and then the man she was currently married to while I was growing up was an alcoholic. I really didn’t have anything to compare to what is normal and what’s not normal.

Instead of Happily Ever After, I Was Asking, “I Don’t Want a Divorce?”Anne (05:45): So many women have that situation. I remember telling my doctor, my internal medicine family practice doctor, I don’t know what is okay, because I’ve never been married to anyone else, and everybody tells you marriage is hard and everybody tells you you have to work hard at it and you have to be loving and patient.

We get educated about how to love and serve and forgive and be kind and listen and all that stuff. But we get very little education about abuse, so it gets confusing. We talk so much about recognizing abuse in BTR.ORG Group Sessions.

Karen (06:18): Honestly, nobody talks about that. I mean, even today, every pre-marriage session should include a section on recognizing abusive behaviors, and it should occur separately because she won’t admit that in front of him, and vice versa.

Yet, even in this day and age, we still fail to implement this. People struggle to imagine that someone so kind, funny, and well-liked could have a dark side. I wasn’t searching for a fairytale; I didn’t even have marriage on my mind. Instead of a fairytale, I ended up living a nightmare.

Some guys, as soon as you say I do, they immediately, they turn, they strip off all the masks and the monster is there and some guys are really slow at it, and ours was slow and periodic and it was mostly verbal and emotional and psychological, but I didn’t know that.

Accepting the Intention Behind the Abuse When Thinking “I Don’t Want A Divorce”Most of what I know about what happened to me is after the fact. I still have moments and I’ve been out now coming up, it’ll be 19 years, and so I’m coming up on these anniversaries. I still have moments where I’ll read something on social media and I’m like, whoa, wow. Yes.

There’s all these tactics. There are so many, but even I am still surprised at what he did and how abusive it was.

Anne (07:52): And also I think the longer we’re out of it, we realize how intentional it was too, which is heartbreaking.

Karen (07:59): Yes, it is. I can’t tell you how many women are like, oh, he didn’t do it on purpose. I’m like, yeah, he really did. No, no, he wouldn’t do that. He just had this and his that.

You can hear the cognitive dissonance going on in their brain, and it’s part of that healing process of getting over those thoughts that have taken over the lies that we think are really true because they resonate.

Because he said it so many times and ingrained it with behaviors and reactions and punishments. Whatever words you want to use. That it is so reinforced that we think that he couldn’t help it because he said it for so long.

It’s hard to admit that this man that you shared your bed with and raised children with that said he loved you, actually purposely married you, so he would have the freedom to abuse you.

When You Don’t Want A Divorce, But You Feel Like You Don’t Have Any OptionsAnne (09:01): I think it also comes from societal scripting, some religious scripting as well. It almost confirms the abusive gaslighting that they’re telling you. Then you go to maybe a therapist or clergy or a friend, and they unknowingly are also confirming to you this false reality that yeah, you should be submitting.

That’s what a good wife would do, or whatever they’re saying that kind of keeps you stuck there and you don’t realize what’s happening.

Karen (09:36): Because sometimes you don’t know that you have an option and which to some people sounds a little bit crazy. But the reality is when you’re in the middle of it, you feel like you don’t have any options.

Anne (09:49): Also you have really good intentions. You care about your children, you care about your family. If clergy or someone else is saying to you, well, if you really care about your family, you need to forgive.

For example, or if you really follow Jesus, then you need to submit and forgive and pray for him or advice like that. That doesn’t help women get to emotional safety.

I Don’t want a Divorce! Am I really Going to Just Put 30 Years in the Trash and Start Over?You’re around 50 years old at the time and you’re thinking, I don’t want a divorce is it time for me to leave. I need to get to emotional safety, psychological safety, and you sort of see it as starting over, which is scary because people don’t want a divorce. They’ve already invested 30 years into this relationship.

Thinking, I don’t want a divorce? Can you talk about your decision to leave and the concept of starting over? How that either can help victims to leave, like, oh, I get a fresh start, or it can actually keep them stuck because they’re like, I don’t want a divorce. I’ve already invested too much.

I Was Afraid to Move, I Don’t Want A DivorceKaren (10:57): I think starting over is the part that doesn’t even enter your brain. It didn’t enter my mind because I couldn’t even think that far ahead. The time that I left six months prior to leaving was when I realized one day I had the moment when I realized I was done, he wasn’t worth it anymore.

This man clearly cares nothing about me. I was just done. It still took six months to leave because I didn’t know how to do that. I was isolated from my family. And it just happened that my mom came in December for my daughter’s graduation from college and was staying for Christmas, and it was that week before Christmas as everything came to a head.

I don’t know how I decided that I was going to leave, but that’s all that I could think of. I was 51 when I left. When I landed in Texas a little less than a month later, about three weeks later, I couldn’t even imagine life any different than it was. I felt like a little kid who someone took all the fences down and I was afraid to move.

Finding Light in the Darkness(12:14): There was dangerous traffic all around me, and I was so stuck and I was so terrified. I went from terrified of leaving him, I knew what he was capable of, I felt terrified. Now what do I do? I don’t know how to do this. I was with my family and my sister would drive me places and help me make decisions, and my brother was helping me because I couldn’t think straight.

The thought of starting over just seemed overwhelming, and I didn’t use that terminology until I got a job. About two and a half months after I left, I got a new job here in Texas. Then that changed my thinking because all of a sudden I found these people that just absolutely adored me.

They liked me. I mean, that was a big deal. They actually liked me.

Over time, as I was away from his abuse, I could feel my mind clearing as I was working at learning a new job, I was in four months of training. I could feel the shift slowly happen to where all of a sudden I could see possibilities and it was terrifying.

I was just bumbling around in the dark, and that’s what it felt like, I just literally felt like I was bumbling around in the dark because up to this point, I had part-time jobs or I had inconsequential jobs. He wanted me to work, but I always worked under my capabilities. Every job I had was never to my capabilities.

Starting Over: Remembering Who You REALLY Are(14:01): Now I have a job where I feel myself growing and learning and expanding my mind and starting to see this is so different. I’m not sure I’m really answering your question because it’s hard to put words to what I felt then.

I had no idea who I was when I came out of the marriage. I was really mousy and quiet, and I’m not that way.

That’s not who I am. I’m not mousy or quiet. I could overtalk. I could be too loud when I’d get excited. It’s only been in the last few years that the Lord has actually showed me.

He’s given me glimpses of moments in my early married life where I was that way. Because of his reaction, I learned over time that not to be loud, to not talk, to not give my opinion. It took time.

There were times when he would come at me and I would fight back emotionally or verbally. I was fighting back and I thought I always just appeased him and I didn’t. And the Lord had to open up my mind to help me to remember. He made you this way. This is not who you were. So it has helped me to accept where I am to today, if that makes any sense.

Your Personality Didn’t Cause the AbuseAnne (15:29): When it comes to abuse recovery, the advice is, what were you like before? There is a population of victims who were quiet before, and so they’re like, well, I was always quiet. And so they get a little bit confused.

You have to realize that that does not cause abuse. There are other women who are quiet whose husbands aren’t abusing them.

(16:23): Also, some women who were quiet and maybe really calm, they became more irritated or more upset because he was abusive.

They’re thinking, I must be this angry, bitter person, what he’s told her when really she was just trying to protect herself. It’s really interesting the different ways that victims end up perceiving of themselves, perceiving of their life before, and it takes a while to sort it out.

I also think it takes some distance from that person. They’ve been gaslighting you for so long. When you’re away from it, you can kind of process it a little bit better and say, wait a minute.

Yeah, I did become more loud because I realized that this wasn’t safe or I became more quiet because that was the way I was trying to survive. There’s all different ways that women react to it.

Abusers Want to Squish Our Personalities and They Want to Shift UsKaren (17:17): I totally agree. There is no cookie cutter and with each one of us, how we respond and when they bait us and how we react. Just like all abusers have, it seems like they all read the same manual and they use the same tactics. Every abuser has their own nuance to how they do things. It’s never a cookie cutter because first of all, we’re not all the same. We all are different.

You’re going to see that play out. I purposely use the word abuser. I know there’s all these other terms that we can use. In reality, what we’re dealing with is someone who is an abuser. We all have our own way, it’s our own personality. The point is, abusers want to squish our personalities and they want to shift us. Some abusers really get off on the fact that when you react, when you fight back. They can go, oh, well, look at what you’re doing, and they always point it back.

Anne (18:19): They love that they affected you.

Karen (18:21): Oh yes, for good.

They Love the Ability to be Able to Affect YouAnne (18:22): Oh, I’m so grateful. Thank you. Or, you’re stressing me out. You’re a terrible person. They love the ability to be able to affect you. That’s what they love. They don’t love you. They love the power that like, Ooh, I have the power to be able to affect her.

That’s what they really like because you are around 50 and I’ll be 50 sooner rather than later. It’s feeling very young to me right now, which is exciting. A lot of women think, I can’t do this now. My time has passed. I’m too old.

50 is not old, at whatever age, I’m too old to get to safety. This has been my life for too long. What are some obstacles that you see that women sort of put up for themselves or that other people tell them really quick?

So Many Women Think, It’s too Late for Me to I Don’t Want a Divorce(19:20): I had an abusive boyfriend in high school and he really wanted me to marry him. He told me that if I didn’t marry him right then basically, I will have missed my chance because nobody gets married after 22. He’s like, there’s these three phases.

There’s right after high school, there’s right after everybody gets home from their missions, and then there’s right after another time, there are these three phases. He is like, if you miss this phase, you will never get married. So marry me now. It was in his mind the third phase, and I said, no, thank you.

When I talk about obstacles, so many women just think It’s too late for me. It’s too late for me to have a peaceful life. It’s too late for me to get to safety. Can you talk about that in terms of starting over?

My Life Just Continues to Grow After Starting OverKaren (20:08): Oh, I would love to because I don’t, with 51, it’s starting over. For the first time in my life, I had a career and it wasn’t an amazing career. I learned all that I was capable of. Mow here I am. Because if you start to put together the date she left when she was 51, and it’s been almost 19 years, I’ll be 70 next month.

My life just continues to grow. I’ve discovered that God loves people and it’s not about our age. I mean, look at all the people he used when they were 80 and older in the scriptures like Moses and Abraham and Sarah and all of these people that he used when they were older.

That means nothing to God because it’s never too late. Even though you don’t want a divorce, it’s never too late to leave, even if you’ve been married 40 years or 50 years, because marriage, you’ll go through hard things, but it’s not supposed to be hard.

Even though You Don’t want a Divorce, Starting Over is Possible… You Will Find Your Way(21:19): It’s not supposed to be terrifying. That is not what it’s supposed to be. It makes sense that you don’t want a divorce, it’s daunting, no doubt. You think, “What am I going to do?” Depending if you’ve never worked, what’s going to happen, but you will find your way.

I’m not saying it’s easy because many women don’t want a divorce, and leaving is hard. It’s hard. Leaving is terribly hard, but so is the after because you’ve got to learn, who am I? Who you were before may not be who you are now, and that’s okay because maybe you needed some more healing. It’s who you are today.

Who do you want to be today? What do you want to do? That is some of the hardest questions to ask yourself. How can I learn to dream again? Because we’re not limited. We’re not limited by that. Yes, there’s always, we talk about youth and all of that, but honestly, think about what we were like when we were young and how little that we knew based on what we know now.

To me, about to turn 70 age is irrelevant to me. It used to bother me. I didn’t want to tell anybody how old I was, but now it’s like, no, no, I’m not done. I have so much more that God wants me to do. And I mean, I was 68 when I wrote my book. That’s awesome. It doesn’t limit him. It doesn’t have to limit us.

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Being delivered from abuse is something that all victims hope for (or pray for). Victims of emotional and psychological abuse most often put their hope in the abuser changing. In my study I began to see a pattern for deliverance from abuse. Here are the 5 Stages:

1. Things Get So Bad, You’re Daydreaming About Being Delivered From AbuseSometimes, things have to get really bad before you realize you need things to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore. It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.”

2. You Start to Do Something About ItAfter you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step is to do something about it. This might not fix everything right away, and that’s okay. Trying to do something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger each time. It’s like practicing for a big play, trying different things to see what works best.

3. You Decide to Change Things and Don’t Go BackThis step is when you decide to make a big change and stick with it. It could be deciding not to do something for the person hurting you anymore, or maybe even moving away from them. It’s like crossing a bridge and making sure you can’t go back to the way things were before.

4. It Might Feel Weird for a WhileEven after you’ve made the change, it might feel strange for a bit. You’re getting used to a new way of living where you’re in charge. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build a happy life. You might pick up new hobbies, make new friends, or work on your career. Little by little, things start to get better.

5. You Start to Imagine a Happy LifeIn the last step, you start to really believe you can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about having a safe home, doing things that make you happy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from just getting by to living a great life, finding out who you are, and doing things you love.

Thinking about a happy life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe.

Getting better after being hurt is a big journey. It’s about needing a change, making that change, sticking with it, getting used to the new way, and finally, dreaming of a happy future. It’s a way for people to get out of a hurtful situation, take control of their lives, find out who they are, and look forward to a peaceful and happy future.

Navigating the Journey From Abuse to FreedomThe BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop and BTR.ORG Message Workshop help women gain deliverance from abuse and ultimately find freedom.

• Recognizing the Need for Deliverance
• Separating From the Abuser
• Reaching a Point of Freedom and Safety

Anne’s Personal Story of Deliverance from AbuseAnne (00:00:00): Coach Janet is here, an incredible coach at BTR. She conducts individual sessions and leads group sessions too. She’s here to discuss deliverance from abuse, which aligns with BTR’s main goal: to free women from abuse in any form, tailored to their needs and situations.

For listeners of the podcast, I’ve uploaded a map on YouTube to illustrate these stages. My personal goal was to liberate myself and my children from my abusive ex. Even after eight years, it felt like he was hunting us almost daily. He constantly messaged me, undermined my parenting, canceled my kids’ medical appointments, and manipulated situations to prevent my kids from taking up sports, just so he wouldn’t have to pay for it.

(00:01:04): I was constantly stressed and traumatized. I got really angry because I thought I was great at setting boundaries. I had blocked him on my phone and email for years, yet I couldn’t figure out how to escape him.

The court and clergy wouldn’t help, and neither did other people. How could I make him go away? At this point, I wasn’t interested in him becoming a better person. I knew that was impossible after trying to get him into therapy and to do the right thing. I realized he wouldn’t be a decent co-parent or magically turn into an appropriate father, and it made me very mad.

https://youtube.com/shorts/J4S2vwdknzc?feature=shareStudying Deliverance from Abuse(00:02:05): I couldn’t find a way out. I wondered, is deliverance from abuse even possible? The goal in facing betrayal is to heal from the trauma. People often tell me, our clients, and others—not at BTR, we never say this—but others do, things like, “You’ve got to move on with your life,” or “Maybe forgive him,” or “He’s a jerk, so don’t let it bother you.”

They say all sorts of things to women in these situations. I want to stress that it’s traumatic every single time they betray you, over and over. When people ask, “Why can’t you just get over it?” it’s not that simple.

(00:02:56): You divorced eight years ago. In my case, he abused me for eight years post-divorce. They think the abuse happened eight years ago. It happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied and tried to undermine my children.

Why do so many so-called Betrayal Trauma Specialists, not BTR, but those others out there who don’t really understand, think healing from betrayal trauma is just about overcoming triggers? It’s about handling the triggers from the day we discovered he was using porn or from the month we had a tough time, not knowing what was happening, and then realizing he had an affair.

Coach Janet (00:03:40): I think this is a really important question. Many of us have undergone counseling with marriage therapy. Usually, they concentrate on our communication, healing from past events, and improving our communication skills with our husbands or exes.

We need to keep the focus on the kids. This requires a strong co-parenting relationship. The issue is that communicating with them traps us every single time. Allowing ongoing communication gives him endless opportunities to continue trapping and abusing us using whatever we offer.

Why Betrayal Trauma Specialists Fail to Understand Continuous AbuseAnne (00:04:42) The communication never improves, I wrote and recorded the Living Free Workshop to help women understand the difference between a healthy person’s and an abuser’s view of communication.

They see it as a weapon, thinking, “Okay, I can gather these things and this is how I can use it against her, or to get what I want.” The Living Free Workshop explains all this, helping women understand what’s happening so they can start to gain deliverance from abuse.

Coach Janet (00:05:18): In the Living Free workshop, lesson 26 discussed catching someone lying in real time with full evidence. “You just lied to me. This just happened.” And that gives us a sense of validation. “Oh my goodness, if I just point out these direct points, he’s going to have an aha moment like, ‘Oh, darn it. I own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you.

There was no reason to and maybe I’ll do differently.’ That never happens.” I have a client who thought she could change the outcome if she just communicated and explained it in a way he could understand, almost treating him as if he just didn’t know. If she told him and explained it to him, it would stop.

However, the opposite happened every single time, right from the beginning when they started sharing the kids 50/50 between their houses and things started falling apart at dad’s house.

The Communication Trap with Abusive Ex-Partners(00:06:39): And then she got her kids back and they’d kind of dump everything that happened at their dad’s house on her. She was headstrong, thinking, “Okay, I can call him and say, ‘Hey, I can help. The mornings are chaotic. Why don’t you set a timer?

Wake up at six so you can get the kids up at six thirty, have the lunches pre-made or teach the kids to make their own if you’re busy getting ready for work.'” She really thought it would help. Guess what? It just got worse. More chaos ensued. Then he stopped waking the kids up entirely. They were late to school almost every day.

If the kids said anything, their dad would start crying and apologize, saying he was trying his best and it was so hard. He’s working so hard and he can’t seem to get anything right. And then the kids would feel bad for saying anything, right? That’s manipulation, and now it’s all on the kids. So, the communication just doesn’t work.

Anne (00:07:51): Living free explains why, so let’s stick to that. It does a really good job at clarifying why they do that and why the opposite happens, and then what to do about it. If you define living free as having nothing to do with communication, court, clergy, or seeking third-party help.

Maybe explaining to the court that he can’t wake the kids up, or make breakfast, or perform basic parenting tasks might show that the kids really shouldn’t be under his care.

Seeking Deliverance from Abuse Through Faith and ScriptureWe’re dealing with an abuser who’s essentially a 10-year-old trapped in a 50-year-old’s body, thinking it’s playtime with the kids. But no, it’s parent time. Someone needs to take on the parenting role.

It baffles us when the court seems to think everything looks fine.

(00:08:55): He seems great, but we’re confused. We know that’s not really the case. We started thinking about deliverance from abuse. As a Christian, the concept of deliverance caught my attention, even though BTR isn’t a religious organization. Many women have suffered spiritual abuse at the hands of clergy, often due to what I believe is a misinterpretation of scripture or Christ’s doctrine.

This spiritual abuse has led many women to stop attending church, and I completely understand their decision. They’re abused, why should they continue, right? Whether you’re agnostic, atheist, or follow a different religion, you’re welcome here.

Today, I’ll talk about deliverance from abuse from a Christian perspective because it helped me understand the process of delivering my kids from this perspective. I believe you’ll learn something if you’ll bear with me, but I’m not trying to convert anyone.

(00:09:59): Here we go. We’re going to talk about deliverance from abuse. When I realized the court couldn’t or wouldn’t help me—they probably could but refused—I turned to my clergy. I said, “Hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do about it?” They just stared at me, blinking, clueless about how to help.

They wanted to, but they simply didn’t know how. I started praying, reading the scriptures, and thinking, “Okay, in the scriptures, Christ always delivers.

Anne Blythe”s Personal Journey Toward Deliverance From AbuseHe saves people from their enemies, over and over.” I figured through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I could find deliverance with enough faith. During my study, I read many deliverance books from different religions.

(00:11:01): In my faith, we don’t have a deliverance ministry, unlike other faiths and evangelicals. I’m not very familiar with it because it’s not my faith, but I read a book by a Catholic and an evangelical about casting out devils. Often, when people think about casting out devils, they imagine it as removing them from a person rather than from their presence.

You might not have a devil inside you, but one could be around you. How do you get rid of them? A lot of my study focused on this. I’ve written down all my studies at the end of “Living Free” for a visual of those scriptures if you’re interested.

So, there’s the casting out devils part and the deliverance part. I think, one of the best stories of deliverance is Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt.

(00:11:59): So, I actually went to Egypt and Jerusalem because I wanted to study deliverance from abuse and figure it out. Within six months of returning from Jerusalem, I and my children were delivered. My ex-husband gave up custody and the final say over my kids.

Now, they don’t have to go with him at all if they don’t want to. The parenting time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday at six, with no midweek visits and only two weeks in the summer. They only have to spend two holidays with him the entire year.

The Israelites’ Story as a Metaphor for Abuse SurvivorsI think I could’ve gotten even less. I mean, I could’ve made him take less, but I needed a break. I included that. My oldest son hardly goes anymore.

(00:12:51): I think my other kids will probably visit less and less over the years. Last year, they only went for Christmas and didn’t even stay the whole time. They ended up coming home early, and that’s possible because we’ve been delivered. We can do whatever we want now, which is pretty exciting.

I have this map of the children of Israel delivering themselves, and I want to discuss some of it. Coach Janet, you can see this. Number one is where they were. When visiting Jerusalem, I was surprised. I went on the Nile, and it’s this huge river.

I’m just going to make up numbers here, but let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile, you have the most luscious, beautiful farmland where they can grow a ton of stuff because the water’s right there, and then suddenly, it turns into a very scary arid desert.

(00:13:52): If you look at this map where the children of Israel are, oppressed under Ramseys’ rule, they’re actually in that lush delta. It’s prime farmland with plenty of water. They’re not living in a hole; they’ve been here for hundreds of years, born and raised without knowing anything else.

These Israelites have never been to the Promised Land. They don’t know what it looks like; they know nothing about it. Even though they’re enslaved and oppressed, it’s all they’ve ever known. They’re not exactly hungry; there’s plenty of food and shelter.

Understanding Deliverance from Abuse Through the Lens of the Israelites and MosesThe environment isn’t bad for them. When Moses comes, saying he’s going to try to deliver them, he finds a people who haven’t seen anything else but their current condition. I won’t dive into how Moses gets to this point, but when he decides to deliver them, he realizes that they don’t even know what they’re missing.

(00:15:01): The plagues, the seven plagues. He sends frogs and fire from the sky, turns an island into blood, and all that. In my opinion, it was partly to make Ramseys let them go, but I also think it was for them. If it hadn’t gotten really bad, I don’t think they would’ve wanted to leave because they didn’t know anything else. And it probably seemed pretty scary to them.

They most likely didn’t want to be oppressed anymore, but maybe they were thinking, “Can’t he just be nicer to us? Maybe we can work it out so we only have to work 10 hours a day instead of 16.” I wonder if they were trying to negotiate with Ramseys in their minds, like, “Moses, why are we going? Maybe we can work this out.”

They had to go through those plagues too. And I think for all abuse victims, there’s a stage where things get so bad that they know they have to do something.

I’d call that the first phase of deliverance from abuse where they don’t want to do something; they’re hoping something will work out, but maybe they feel like they have to. Then, in this phase, they try pornography, addiction, recovery. How many of your clients have tried some kind of recovery program or couple therapy or something like that?

Insights from a Coaching SessionCoach Janet (00:16:29): I can’t think of one client that the spouse hasn’t tried something either anger management, sex addiction, csat, couples therapy or all of the above.

Anne (00:16:43): And why do they do that? Because they don’t know anything else. Because they’re afraid. They want Ramseys to be a little nicer. Maybe they want to work fewer hours, or they want better food. Maybe they think with a few concessions, we can live together in peace.

Coach Janet (00:17:00): The land holds goodness. This is the man they’ve built a family with; they love him. He isn’t horrible all the time because they’re still in the fog of abuse. They haven’t even had the chance to feel enough relief to realize the extent of the abuse.

Anne (00:17:21): And they also think there’s some good, rather than realizing the good is also bad, which living free explains really well. In my opinion, that was just as much for them as it was for Ramsey. Finally, Ramsey says, “Okay, I’ll let you go.” Then, they have to pack up all their stuff. This, I think, represents separation.

They have to pack their entire lives into carts. They’ve never been anywhere else, they don’t know anything else, and they have to load it onto carts and such. And when you think about Ramsey, he’s like, “Wait, no, no, no, you can’t take all those animals and you can’t take this cart, but maybe you can take this.”

There’s going to be a point where they’re trying to figure out who takes what as they start making their way out of Egypt. Now, I want to show you something.

Navigating the Exodus: A Journey of Survival(00:18:12): Okay, can you see my cursor? Yes. Alright, here’s the delta, and this right here is the promised land on this side of Jerusalem. They should’ve just walked straight across this Upper Sinai Peninsula and come right over here. That’s not the path they took. Instead, they start heading down here, and at some point, Pharaoh changes his mind, saying, “Never mind, I want you back.”

I think when you first move out before you’re divorced, your trying to figure out your escape, right? You’re wondering, “Will I manage to get a divorce?” Many women in our community face very long, difficult divorces where they desperately want to leave but can’t.

There are women who attempt to start the divorce process, then don’t go through with it, move back in, and later realize they indeed need to move out.

(00:19:13): Women find ways to stay permanently separated, and it’s actually fine because they’ve established solid boundaries. There are many different scenarios. In some cases, through setting boundaries and emotional separation, and by living freely, he might actually change to the point where living with him becomes possible.

This isn’t through a couple’s program, pornography addiction recovery, or anything formal. It’s by you setting boundaries for your own safety, and then he might choose to change. I made all this up, so I’m going to stop saying “I think” and just say, this is what happens.

Divorce and The Red Sea Crossing Analogy: Deliverance from AbuseThis is my interpretation of deliverance. But when they get to the Red Sea and find themselves stuck with Pharaoh after them, it’s a moment of truth.

(00:20:14): They can’t go back. Going back means risking enslavement or oppression again. He’s right behind them. This period, I believe, signifies a kind of divorce. Interestingly, as the Red Sea parts, some women manage to cross, permanently separating them from him unless they choose to remarry.

Looking at this map, I find it fascinating that they chose to cross here rather than taking a seemingly easier route across the Sinai Peninsula. I think the reason is that once they crossed the Red Sea and the waters fell back, returning became impossible. Without GPS or a clear map to the Promised Land—assuming they didn’t have one—they couldn’t simply turn back and recross the sea.

(00:21:16): When that divorce happens and it’s done, I don’t know any woman, at least in our community, who’s like, “I think I want to marry him again.” I think they feel that in some ways, like, “Oh, it’d be nice not to have my kids go back and forth. It’d be nice not to have so many financial problems.

It’d be nice not to worry about this stuff.” I don’t think they ever believe, deep down, “I think I made the wrong decision.” They regret the consequences. The consequences are tough, but they don’t actually regret divorcing him.

Delivering Yourself from Abuse by Picking Up Your StuffCoach Janet (00:21:55): Yes, I agree. When they’re still stuck and haven’t crossed the water, many of my clients have kicked him out. He’ll go to a program, learn something, and then she’ll let him back in, only to kick him out again.

Eventually, he’ll find a couple’s therapist. “We have kids together. We need to communicate effectively to be good,” they say. And they’re facing this court process, filled with fear, thinking, “Oh my goodness, I have no choice.

I must do this.” They try couples therapy, but often it doesn’t work, or the court process is too difficult. I have client who was told she had evidence that he wasn’t a good person or father and that she would get full custody.

However, in court, it didn’t go as planned because her now ex-husband was so smooth, charming, and could afford the perfect lawyer, leading her to lose. Many clients struggle to make it to the other side.

Anne (00:23:19): The water has topped the bottom of the Red Sea for thousands of years; it’s not flat. No one has ever driven or walked across it, so expect lots of rocks and mud. Even if the sea parts and you see a way forward, even if you’re about to get divorced, you still have to pick up all your stuff and start trekking through literal mud to reach the other side. And it’s scary.

You’re constantly fearing that the water could crash down on you and kill you. The court could crush you while you’re waist-deep in mud. We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea through the mud, but it might have taken days.

Overcoming Fear and Finding FreedomThankfully, the Lord kept the Egyptians at bay with a pillar of fire, preventing them from advancing. Before women make that crossing, they’re at a point where they’re thinking, “I don’t want to go through that mud.” Imagine being an Israelite, staring at all the mud and the looming threat of the water crashing down on you at any moment.

My guess is, although it’s not specified in the scriptures, some people might have proceeded simply because Pharaoh’s forces were behind them, leaving them no choice. However, I’m guessing there were also those who really didn’t want to do it.

Coach Janet (00:24:40): And they didn’t know what was on the other side

Anne (00:24:43): Even if they were going to survive getting through it. I mean, we know so many women in our community who don’t know if they’re going to even survive divorce

Coach Janet (00:24:52): And they don’t know what’s on the other side. They’ve never tasted freedom and can’t imagine what that land looks like. They might freeze at the Red Sea, see the parted waters, and still struggle to take those steps through the mud.

Anne (00:25:09): Well, a lot of people say, “I wish someone would save me.” They pray all the time, kneeling at their beds, saying, “God, save me. Please, save me.” And God’s like, “I want to save you. Pick up your stuff, get out of the house, start walking across the mud.” They think, “I don’t want to get my feet dirty.” I mean, it’s more intense than that, but basically, they don’t want to step in. They might say, “No, I don’t want to do that.

Navigating the ChallengeI don’t want to move. I don’t want to give up my lifestyle.” For those of us who were young moms, we generally have 18 Christmases with our kids before they turn 18. Those of us who are divorced end up with just nine. Thoughts like that are so heartbreaking. We didn’t sign up to be a mom and only have nine Christmases with our kids before they move out.

Coach Janet (00:26:02): This analogy compares the Israelites approaching the Red Sea, uncertain of what will happen next. Their lives had to worsen to the point where it propelled them to conquer their fear. As they watched the waters part, they faced the daunting task of trudging through with all their possessions, worried the water might collapse on them.

They had no idea what awaited on the other side or if their enemies might also cross. This scenario closely mirrors our clients’ experiences. Often, it’s the gift of hitting rock bottom that leaves no choice but to pick up their bags, pack, and leave, despite not knowing what lies ahead or how difficult passing through those waters will be.

Anne (00:27:10): Yeah, it’s really hard. We talked about my belief that they passed here so they couldn’t go back. Now, in our lives, unfortunately, water doesn’t fall on them and kill them. We go through divorce, and they’re still chasing us. That’s so frustrating because no domestic violence shelter prepares you for that.

All domestic violence shelters want to do is help you do two things: get a protective order and get divorced, if they have services available for you. A protective order does squat if you need to co-parent, making things very difficult. So, let’s talk about the other side.

Post-Divorce Struggles and Seeking SafetyThen they get to the other side and start this 40-year wilderness journey, wandering around. In this first part, they’re getting manna from heaven. They don’t know where their resources will come from. Some of them are like, “Why don’t we just go back?”

(00:28:09): Egypt had so many resources, and it’s maddening that we’re worse off now than before. We have no food. We’re not being oppressed in the traditional sense, but our situation still oppresses us. Unlike the Israelites, Pharaoh actually makes it across the river and continues to pursue us.

We wander around. This period feels like it’s post-divorce. You don’t really want to go back, but you miss the resources, the food, the shelter, and the comfortable house. Now, we’re living in a tent in the middle of nowhere. We wandered around in the wilderness for a while. When I went to Jerusalem and looked out the bus window, there were actual dirt devils everywhere.

(00:29:07): I was like, “What?” Some were bigger than others, but following that pillar by day to figure out where to go, I thought, “Oh, I can totally see this happening.” Fascinating to me.

And it was hot. I was there at the end of April, beginning of May, and it hit a hundred degrees. It was so hot that the shade shielding them from the sun felt like tiny miracles. In my faith, we call them tender mercies as they received manna. Women feared they wouldn’t be able to eat or live.

The Emotional Journey of Post-Abuse RecoveryLet’s talk about that. It amazes me that they’re okay. Going through really hard times, I remember only wanting maybe a pair of shoes when I was in that stage. Speaking of that stage, it’s surprising how most women manage to have enough to eat and a roof over their heads, despite it being very tough.

Coach Janet (00:30:19): All the clients I can think of feel euphoric at this phase because they’ve survived the divorce. The waters didn’t crash down on them. At the beginning, their exes are almost like hurt puppies whimpering, “I can’t believe you left, come back.”

And the real post-divorce abuse hasn’t really started in full swing. For the first time in however many decades, they can breathe. They’ve built a safe home for themselves and their kids; they have food, shelter, and water. It’s like living for the first time because they can’t even remember life before their husband.

There was so much abuse that this little window feels like a reprieve before the storms start coming. Have you heard any clients say things like that?

Anne (00:31:33): I’ve heard women say, I can breathe again or at this stage, something like I went outside and I could see color. Have you heard that?

Coach Janet (00:31:45): That they can taste food or they sit there for hours like, wait, what am I supposed to eat? I have the option of choosing what I’m going to eat. It’s like learning to live.

Seeking Answers at Mount Nebo: How to Gain Deliverance from AbuseAnne (00:32:00): And I think they’re amazed because they receive manna from heaven. They have what they need, even if it’s not what they want, and their lifestyles may have drastically changed.

They’re not starving. Generally, they might not eat the same foods as before or might eat something they don’t love, but living on rice and beans keeps them from starving.

It feels really good at first. Then, after a while, they think, “Wait a minute. Is this it? Will I live on rice and beans for the rest of my life? Will I deal with this man forever?”

During this 40-year wilderness phase, women also try to figure out their careers and how they’re going to work, leading to the final stage of deliverance from abuse, wondering how he will finally leave them alone.

(00:33:02): I wandered around for a while and visited Mount Nebo, where the Israelites first laid eyes on the promised land, a sight they had never seen before. Mount Nebo sits right here, overlooking the promised land across the Dead Sea. That reminds me of the Great Salt Lake near my home in Utah, my own topography.

Being in Jerusalem felt very weird, but I quickly felt at home, incredibly so. The terrain resembles Utah’s, with Utah Lake and what we call the Jordan River flowing into the Great Salt Lake, which doesn’t drain. Hence, the Great Salt Lake is much like the Dead Sea, extremely salty, where you can easily float. It’s just the same. Then I headed to Petra, reminiscent of Zion National Park, a favorite spot for many of us.

Seeking a Promised Future(00:33:54): It was weird. I felt like, “Oh my word, I’m an Israelite. I feel at home here.” The place was very desert-like and kind of cool. Okay, I’m up on Mount Nebo. I’ll share a maybe not-so-funny story. While there, “I’m going to talk to Moses.

I grabbed my scriptures, and on the tour I was on, I was like, “Leave me alone. I don’t want to talk to any of you. I’m going off by myself.” And they were like, “She’s weird. This lady is cray cray town.” I’m like, “I’ll be back, and don’t anyone look for me.”

I tried to find a place where I could pray and talk to Moses. By the way, I’ve never talked to Moses before, this wasn’t something I regularly did, but I thought, “I’m trying to deliver women out of abuse.”

(00:34:41): Moses knows about this. I’m going to chat with him, fumbling around these ancient ruins where I probably shouldn’t be. I’m trying to find a place to kneel but just can’t find the right spot. I end up sitting on these 3000-year-old stones, likely part of a fence, where I’m pretty sure I shouldn’t be sitting.

And there I am, praying, hoping Moses will come and talk to me while I read the scripture. I thought he’d say something, but when I open the scriptures, they’re not even remotely related. I’m like, what’s he trying to say? No, it’s not working. No, I didn’t talk to Moses, just so you know. It didn’t turn out that way.

Navigating the Promised Land(00:35:31): As I looked off at the promised Land at that time in my life, I thought I now knew what I wanted my life to be. I believed I had this miraculous decree, what I thought would be best for my kids and me, giving me the final say.

He couldn’t have any say in what the kids did or didn’t have to go with him where I didn’t have to deal with him at all. I stood on man’s evil, looking out there, thinking I couldn’t get there.

Now, the reason why the Israelites couldn’t get there was that it was full of other people, and they needed to kill all those people in the Bible to get rid of them so they could enter the promised land, which seems ethically wrong since they hadn’t been there for 400 years.

(00:36:22): You know what I mean? Parts of the Bible just don’t make sense to me. Anyway, in our case, we can’t kill him. That’s exactly what they were planning: to kill them and then live the life they wanted. Now, I’m not proposing murder.

Listeners, please don’t think that’s what I’m suggesting. I know we’ve all thought that if he just got hit by a bus, everything would be okay. My kids are safe now, alright, but why is he still blocking me from the promised land, to stick with this metaphor?

What do you think frustrates women the most in this situation when they can see the solution? They know what it should look like. They know how to set boundaries, but they can’t achieve it.

Strategies for Peace and ResilienceCoach Janet (00:37:09): I think about a client I’m considering cutting ties with; communication was her biggest challenge. Her court experience, where they portrayed her as gatekeeping and keeping the kids away from him, fueled a mix of fears. She feared him and what he had put her through.

She constantly worried about not explaining every detail to him, felt she had to hold his hand through the parenting process, and remind him about early out times, even during his parenting time. Essentially, he was living rent-free in her brain.

To sever that cord, she doesn’t have to communicate with him. In their case, they’re using Our Family Wizard. You message when you’re dropping the kids off, and that’s it. Convincing her that no other communication would lead to anything positive was a huge struggle.

Anne (00:38:30): I developed the message workshop’s tools from years of working with clients. First, you learn the general strategies and specific phrases that work, although applying them can be tough. Let’s turn back to this map. Here, discussing divorce, you understand there’s no going back.

Another issue is that many women, justifiably, fear the trauma from court experiences, worrying they’ll be targeted again, though not always. Chronic litigators exist. In fact, Carmen from the message workshop, who I helped, had been divorced for 10 years and her ex had dragged her to court for custody five times.

Finding Liberation(00:39:29): She hit rock bottom and reached out to me for help. Recently, she texted me, saying, “Anne, you’ll never believe it. I think I’m out. I’ve tried everything—communication, all sorts of things. Nothing worked for 10 years. Since I started doing this, he hasn’t messaged me.

I don’t know what’s going to happen with this case. It’s not moving forward; nothing’s happening.” And I’m thinking, “Really? She thinks she’s done. Give it a minute. We’ll see. I mean, I know these methods work, right? I’m never quite sure when it’s truly over. In my case, I knew it was over when he signed the paper, and I signed it.

I knew I’d been delivered.” And some women feel the same. They’re like, “He moved to Texas, and I knew I had deliverance from abuse.”

(00:40:19): Instances like that happen. At other times, they just stop writing, leaving you wondering, “Well, he hasn’t moved, what’s going on?” It might take a minute to figure out, but he really has.

He’s checked out; he’s done. I want women to think about this point: crossing this “red sea” means you’re not going back to court because court is expensive. If you don’t initiate it, which we never recommend any victim do after the divorce is over, it’s very unlikely he’ll take you back to court.

Some people do, but for the majority, it’s pretty rare. They want to threaten you with it, constantly. If you just say, “Okay, no problem, I have an attorney on retainer,” and let them know, that’s one of the strategies we cover in the message workshop.

Strategies for Living Free: How to get Deliverance From Abuse(00:41:10): They’re like, “I’m supposed to scare you. This isn’t scaring you.” Once you realize court is over and there’s no going back, starting to offload that fear, which we discuss in Living Free, really helps. When you reach this point, you can look at it and see it.

Sure, some people might fear returning to court, and it could happen, right? There are no guarantees, although it’s unlikely. Seeing that and cutting off communication kind of sends the message to clear out the promised land because it turns into scorched earth. I now understand that I’ll never have a normal relationship with him. And it’s not because I can’t have a normal relationship; it’s because he’s incapable of having one.

(00:42:06): And once you finally understand that’s not an option, I’ll stop thinking this conversation will be the one where he gets it. In this case, we’ll say our relationship is dead. You can’t have a relationship with someone incapable of doing it.

Once you reach that point, once you kill the relationship in your own mind and body and think, I can’t communicate with him like I would with a normal person, you’ll know your deliverance from abuse is close.

Coach Janet (00:42:46): I thought about stopping the communication and trying to explain. I have a client who wasn’t afraid, but she couldn’t let go of wanting justice. She wanted to show him directly how he’s affecting the kids and make him take responsibility.

Then she realized he was even using that against her. It was almost like he purposely abused the kids to get to her. There’s no justice. She decided to let it go.

The Temptation to Argue and Communicate with AbusersAnne (00:43:35): What you’re looking for is deliverance from abuse. It’s impossible to move on when you’re being abused, but in order to be deliverance from the abuse, justice is a trap.

(00:43:51): Truth and communication are traps. They’ll use justice as a weapon against you. They’ll keep acting just to prevent you from getting justice, forcing you to keep coming back. Letting go frees us. In my case, I did care about justice, but living the life I wanted mattered more.

My ex, being an attorney, blocked that life for me. I expected a certain lifestyle, thinking I could take yearly trips or buy new shoes, but that didn’t happen.

(00:44:52): Part of it was letting go, which then enabled my delivery. I don’t want women to think we’re asking them to just move on, but rather, would you like deliverance from abuse? I invite you, as Christ would, as your savior.

He’d say, as your savior and deliverer, do you want to be delivered? And we’d say yes. Then he’d ask, do you trust me more than Satan? Hopefully, we’d say yes. Christ doesn’t even let evil spirits speak in the scriptures. It says he doesn’t allow them to speak.

Finding Deliverance From Abuse He doesn’t want to engage with these guys either. He’s not thinking, oh, maybe if I talk to him, I can help him. No. In fact, I believe it’s either the second or third temptation of Christ, where they’re on the building and he’s like, Satan, throw yourself off the building.

(00:46:00): I truly believe the temptation was more about communication than throwing yourself off a building. After all, no one finds the idea of throwing themselves off a building tempting. You know what is tempting? Arguing with someone about how absurd it is for them to suggest you throw yourself off a building.

If it were me facing Satan, I’d be like, “Satan, what’s wrong with you? Why would you even suggest I throw myself off a building? And Christ could do that and win the argument because it’s probably the stupidest temptation in the universe.

It’s not tempting at all. He doesn’t get trapped by the real temptation, which is the temptation to argue. Instead, he says, “Get lost.” There’s no reasoning with Satan, and throughout the scriptures, it’s all about separating yourself from the wicked. I feel like Christ is inviting us to be delivered.

That’s what I’ve included in “Living Free” and the message workshop. To achieve it, he’s given us some guidelines, and if we follow his teachings, he will deliver us.

It will take a lot of effort. I mean, even if he saves us, we still have to walk through the mud and cross the desert. There’s no deliverance from abuse story where God just picks them up with a helicopter or something.

Anne (00:47:31): Even though he saves them, he drops them off. There are miracles, like manna being a miracle and parting the Red Sea.

From Mount Nebo to Seeking JusticeLet’s look at one of your clients who’s at this point. They’re on Mount Nebo, looking down, seeing it but not doing it.

They keep thinking, “I didn’t do it,” because they’re either giving themselves reasons or maybe they’re giving you a reason why they didn’t. I once asked someone, which I think came off as offensive because I didn’t mean to blame the victim, “I don’t care why you did it, when will you use these tools?”

She couldn’t give me an answer at that moment. I wasn’t trying to call her out; I genuinely wanted to help her. What can we say to victims struggling to apply it?

Coach Janet (00:48:29): Thinking of a client and three things sets off pure anger for the situation where she wants to communicate her anger and fear. If she doesn’t reach out, will he take her back to court, or could she could get in trouble.

And then there’s the justice piece, feeling so worn out from the unending abuse, like being tumbled by waves, coming up for air only for another wave to hit. The exhaustion from trying to communicate, whether through Our Family Wizard or some other way, overwhelms her.

She realizes it doesn’t matter the reason, because every form of communication and every “why” leads to a different trap. End of story. Close the box, put it down, and walk away.

Anne (00:49:57): Walking away is really hard because, first, you should feel angry. We all should. If we didn’t, what would we be, robots? That’d be weird. I mean, some people don’t feel angry, and that’s okay. If you don’t, you’re not weird. Shine on, my friends.

The Path to Healing Coach Janet (00:50:13): There’s plenty of anger.

Anne (00:50:14): Shine on if you’re not feeling angry. Mostly, it’d be weird not to feel angry. You should be angry, seek justice, and fear is natural. These people are dangerous; they’ve hurt you and your family. Don’t let those feelings prevent your recovery.

It’s a trap that can hinder your healing. Yet, you can be angry, seek justice, and feel afraid, and it’s thrilling. Use the tools from the Living Free and message workshops to heal. Share your feelings with a safe coach, like a BTR coach, or with other women in BTR group sessions.

(00:51:13): You can share them with your mom, your sister, or any other safe people in your life. You can also share them with God. The Living Free and message workshops focus on deliverance from abuse, but they don’t tell you to let go, move on, or stop giving away your power, or all that stupid stuff everyone suggests. I say, hold onto your anger.

It’ll serve you well. Yes, you should seek justice, and I promise, you’ll get it, and it’ll be thrilling and loved by everyone. I’ll be like, “Yes, justice. I love justice.” The cool part is, if you do the exercises, have you heard about the power stance?

It’s supposed to make you feel better. Similarly, using the tools makes a difference. At first, I was so mad and didn’t want to do it.

(00:52:02): There were so many of those tools that I thought, “What? I’m supposed to write this? This is ridiculous. This is stupid. I don’t want to do this.” But I did it, I pushed send, and thought, “I don’t want to do this.” Yet, I kept doing it. Eventually, it started becoming kind of fun.

Strategies for True Deliverance from AbuseIt wasn’t because I was trying to become less angry. I became less afraid, not because I was trying to, but because I was starting to actually live free since I wasn’t being abused anymore. The only way to get justice, the only way not to be angry all the time, and the only way not to be afraid is if you’re not being abused.

It’s the only way out. You can’t continue to be abused and not be afraid. It just doesn’t work like that.

Coach Janet (00:53:17): And finding that peace where you’re not being abused, you’ve stopped putting yourself in harm’s way, took my client some time.

She saw the benefits, but when she started using strategic messaging, he just shifted tactics to attack her from a different angle. You have to play it from all angles. She struggled a bit before she could finally walk away.

Anne (00:54:08): And for good reason, they’re purposefully setting traps to catch you. It’s not your fault if you think, “Oh, I’ve stepped in the trap again.” You’re just walking like a normal person. Then, you begin to identify the traps. However, at no point is it your fault. You shouldn’t have to look out for traps. It’s entirely his fault.

(00:54:31): When you sign up for Living Free and join the Message workshop, don’t expect to be perfect. I once thought I nailed it until I actually developed the workshop and started working with other women. Looking back at my messages, I realized I missed the mark multiple times.

Lessons from the Living Free WorkshopNow, after helping other women for a long time, I’ve become really good at it. But it’s a skill you need to learn, and it’s not always fair. It’s like surviving a plane crash in the mountains.

It’s not your fault, but if you don’t figure out how to find water and make your way down to a city, you’re going to die, regardless of fault. Wanting to be saved, regardless of whether it’s your fault, isn’t your fault at all.

(00:55:27): You need to learn these skills to achieve deliverance form abuse. From a faith perspective, these skills work universally and aren’t spiritually based. In creating the living free and message workshop, I made them secular so everyone would feel comfortable, which is crucial since many women have experienced spiritual abuse.

I decided to remove any spiritual bias. Personally, I believe these principles, which I discovered in the scriptures through prayer and study, including casting out devils and deliverance from abuse, will have an extra special effect for women because of Jesus’s kindness, mercy, justice, and love.

I’ve been delivered using these principles and have seen other women find deliverance from abuse too, which truly makes me happy. They were always there; it’s just that men wrote the scriptures and interpreted them. Often, they tell women only to love, serve, and forgive.

No, we’re going to read the scriptures ourselves and take from them what we will.

Coach Janet (00:57:01): Absolutely. And we must stay kind to ourselves as we process with our clients, as they work through messages, trip, fall, and get stuck in traps. We should see these as learning experiences. Each time, I learn not to repeat the same mistake and just keep going.

Support from BTR CoachesAnne (00:57:25): And I think too, there’s nothing like a learning experience to realize, “Oh, he’s really wicked. He’s truly evil. This is really scary.” That’s the other cool thing about being kind to him in the message workshop.

(00:57:45): There’s nothing mean or literally nothing in there. It’s how Christ teaches us to deliver ourselves. Christ does it this way. You can find examples of Him doing this throughout the scripture, which is really cool. This is also why we have the best coaches at BTR.

They’re amazing. They validate women who’ve been victimized, they’re kind and gentle, and they help women meet them where they are. They navigate women safely through experiences that aren’t their fault. And I appreciate the listeners.

I’m not a coach. I’d probably just say, “Stop doing that. Stop. Do you want to get deliverance from abuse or not?”

Coach Janet (00:58:34): Get over here right now.

Anne (00:58:36): And they’re like, oh, wow, Ann, she’s intense. I am a little bit intense, but I really, really want you have deliverance from abuse. Is that so bad? That’s my fault that I want that.

Coach Janet (00:58:49): No, that’s your gift. You’re right where you need to be, right? Doing what you need to be doing.

Anne (00:58:56): Yes, I’m so grateful for the BTR coaches. They can really help women apply these concepts in a gentle way that benefits everyone. So, thank you, Coach Janet, for being here as I pontificated about the stages of deliverance from abuse. Yeah so many women go through this and desperately need support, which is why we have our daily, online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group.

The Message Workshop StrategiesCoach Janet (00:59:14): Thank you for having me on and discussing this. I love the map and how you walked us through the deliverance from abuse process, and the Living Free workshop benefits any woman at any stage. If she’s overwhelmed in the fog of abuse but wants to escape, Living Free makes it so simple.

The lessons are very short, like your best friend holding your hand and guiding you through each step. You can rewatch it if you feel like you missed a concept. Just go back, watch it again, print out the workbook, and follow all the steps at your own pace. It really simplifies the process, and I wish I’d had it at the beginning of my divorce.

Anne (01:00:10): These strategies work if you’ve decided, “I don’t want to get divorced, but I also don’t want to be abused.” They’re a safety strategy for any woman at any stage. These strategies and tools work with both Living Free and the Message Workshop. The Message Workshop specifically targets separated women using Family Wizard. However, the principles still apply if you’re living in the same house.

If you grasp the fundamental strategies and tools, you can apply them in your communication. I aimed to make them simple because everything about abuse is overwhelming.

I believe it’s the only way out, whether you stay married or divorce, at any stage. Thank you. Coach Janet is incredible. She’s available for individual sessions, and she facilitates our daily group sessions. We’d love to see you in a session today. Coach Janet (01:01:39): Thank you so much, Anne. Have a good night.

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Dr. Debi Silber and Anne discuss the concept of forgiveness in relation to emotional abuse and intimate betrayal. Forgiveness is a word we try to avoid at BTR because it’s so often weaponized against victims, but can it help victims of intimate betrayal on their journey to healing?

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Dr. Debi Silber.Part One: Healing From Betrayal Trauma With Dr. Debi Silber
Part Two: Is Forgiveness Helpful For Victims of Betrayal? (this episode)

Forgiveness Is, Forgiveness Is NotForgiveness is an oft-weaponized concept, used to silence and blame victims. Here at BTR, we choose to see forgiveness as another tool that victims can use to establish emotional safety. As you work toward healing and peace, remember that you’re not alone.

The Power of ForgivenessI study the Bible, I’m Christian, and if you don’t or you’re agnostic, all the listeners out there just keep listening.

I’m not going to give a religious lecture or anything, but just for my own personal experience, it really struck me that in so many scriptures about forgiveness, it’s actually about debt. Talking about you’re forgiving someone of their debt, and it’s really true of abusers.

They really do owe you a lot, right? They owe you justice. And they owe you not just an apology, but a living amends because of the damage that they’ve done for years and years.

They could owe you financially, they could owe you in relation to other relationships with family members or children, and that’s part of what hurts is that they owe you this great debt and they are not paying it back.

The More You Try to Get Them to Pay it Back, the More Control They Have Over You(03:44): And the more you try to get them to pay it back, the more control they have over you. They actually love that, right? Because they’re like, cool. She is still attached to me. She still wants something from me, and so they can hold it over your head.

And I find it interesting that clergy generally sees forgiveness as a way to reconcile. Forgive, and then you can talk and you can have peace. And I’ve started seeing forgiveness as a way to actually move farther away from the person.

Because once you forgive them of that debt and say, okay, I know you do owe me all this. As a woman of faith just for myself, I think, well, I could try to get it from you and you are not healthy and not safe.

Or I can turn to God who will give me what I need and he loves me and he wants to give it to me, and he’s not going to hold anything over my head. Turning away from the person who is literally indebted to me and releasing that debt and saying, okay, you might not pay it.

Anne’s Understanding of Forgiveness(04:50): I’m going to turn to God and hope that he pays it. And from my Christian perspective, from my savior. Now, other people can think of it in different ways, but I just thought that was a really interesting idea that forgiveness can actually move you farther away from abuse and farther away because you’re not expecting anything from them anymore.

You can consider what they owe you. If it’s money, if it’s a relationship, whatever it is, you can consider it to be cursed, right? Even if they gave you that thing that they owe you alimony, I don’t know what it would be, right? A car payment.

If you consider that to be cursed as a way that they can use to get their hooks in you, then it’s a little bit easier to say, you know what? You don’t owe me anything. I am going to turn to healthy people myself, my faith, something else not for justice, but I’m going to forgive that debt and I’m going to look elsewhere for that thing that I need.

Is this Worth My Health? My Sanity?Dr. Debi Silber (05:49): And I look at this really from a, I’m in health for 30 plus years, and when you are banging your head against the wall trying to get someone to understand and to see. You’re proving and you’re explaining and you’re not getting anywhere.

This person at this point in their life and their current level of consciousness, they’re either incapable or unwilling to do anything different. Then you want to take a look and say, is this worth my health? Is this worth my sanity?

Is this worth me really compromising every other aspect of life because it’s tainting everything? When you look at the widespread effect of really how it’s affecting you physically, mentally, emotionally. How it’s affecting how you show up at work and at home and with your family in all these places, here’s where I really look at the motivation to forgive.

Again, having nothing to do with the other person, but we’re giving them so much power and if we’re giving them so much power, well what’s left for ourselves and our own growth. Looking at it like that and knowing what the body is physically doing when we’re expecting and hoping and waiting on anything external, that’s always a recipe for disaster.

Instead of knowing I can only control myself, any attachment I have is, and any expectation is potential for me being really let down, really disappointed and really sick, and that’s just not worth it.

https://youtu.be/3u9c-O20Ju4National Forgiveness DayAnne (07:38): We have strategies to do this in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop, and Dr. Silber has strategies that help with reframing things like this in your mind so that you can feel peace regardless of where he is, which is the point.

For us, it’s specifically in the relationship usually while you’re still trying to make your way to safety. So you founded National Forgiveness Day. Can you talk about how that happened?

Dr. Debi Silber (08:13): There were so many people that were struggling in so many ways from things that happened throughout their lives, and it was actually a social experiment. I wanted to see is it possible to move to more forgiving and free with intention? That was the intention.

Then when we were kicking off this 21 day forgiveness journey, I thought what would really amp this up? I thought of the idea of this National Forgiveness day a day to really do this.

Just today I got an email from somebody, she’s in her late eighties, and for 70 plus years, she’s had digestive issues because of a family betrayal. And through forgiveness, through this 21 day experience, the gut issues are gone.

You don’t want to think you have to be in your late eighties to do this work. I mean, I’m so impressed with her that she did, but that’s what can happen.

Intentional & Deliberate Forgiveness(09:17): So we had example after example of people who forgave themselves for being too hard on themselves. Or always making choices that weren’t in their best interest or choosing that person or sticking around too long or forgiving the hurt that they caused someone else.

Everybody has their own thing and it didn’t have to be the most triggering of their experiences. I actually encouraged them to start with something a little smaller like the coworker who snubbed you, something like that.

The idea of intentionally and deliberately working on this for our sake, it made such a difference and it was just so great to see.

The Treatment Really is SafetyAnne (10:02): That’s awesome. I have such a hard time sometimes I don’t even want to say the word forgiveness on the podcast because there was so long where even if someone mentioned it, it was just like a knife to my heart. And so if that is where you are at, it’s okay.

It’s okay. And there will never be a time, at least at BTR where we say you have to forgive because the treatment really is safety. We talk about this a lot in BTR.ORG Group Sessions.

I have found so many times that part of the reason why women are having a hard time with forgiveness is because they are not yet safe. They’re still currently incurring an injury. If somebody is hitting you on the head, that’s not really the time to even think about forgiveness, right?

You need to make sure that you’re not getting hit on the head first, at least listeners here to BTR. If that is hard to hear and difficult, it’s probably because you’re still being actively injured and you need to make your way to safety. That’s a really good indicator that safety has not been established in so many cases.

Safe & ValuedDr. Debi Silber (11:14): We are totally on the same page with that. I remember when I was doing my research. There was a study I read, and it’s said, if you feel safe and valued and you forgive, you feel better. If you do not feel safe and valued and you forgive, you feel worse.

Then in my research, I kicked it up a notch and I said, well, what would happen if we changed the word forgive to rebuild or reconcile? And it would sound like this, if you feel safe and valued and you reconcile, you feel better.

If you do not feel safe and valued and you reconcile, you feel worse. I think that’s really what we’re both speaking about. This has everything to do with our sense of safety and security and forgiveness. The way I’m suggesting it is having zero to do with that other person. That doesn’t mean you’re rebuilding, you’re reconciling.

No, it is only for your own freedom. Rebuilding though, however, has everything to do so much to do with that other person. If that person is unwilling and capable of doing anything different and you are just rebuilding or reconciling just to make things easier.

Even forgiving to make things easier, I would say check the reasons why you’re doing that. If you do feel safe and valued, that’s a whole different thing.

Dealing with False Narratives and Seeking PeaceAnne (12:44): For women who are dealing with post-divorce abuse from not just the abuser, but also other people who believe his story. They are struggling because when he’s telling this false narrative, the people listening to him and believing him, they don’t realize that she’s currently being abused.

This act of lying about her, false witness, basically is an act of abuse, and they just think he’s telling his side of the story.

(13:51): They don’t see that as an act of abuse. Maybe if it just was from him, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. I mean, it’s always going to be a big deal, but you can see the abuse coming from him, but then it’s coming from other people.

Family members or neighbors or other acquaintances. And I think this kind of goes back to that debt I was talking about.

You would think that he owes you a debt of telling people the truth about what happened, and he’s not repaying that debt. He’s actually incurring more debt in lying continually.

For women who are experiencing that now, do you have any thoughts for them about how to maybe reframe that so they can have a feeling of peace if that’s occurring in their lives?

Navigating Through MisinformationDr. Debi Silber (14:30): Yeah, I totally do because this is an experience that I experienced myself. So recently I just did on a podcast episode, and it was with one of our members who moved through all five stages from betrayal to breakthrough.

When she first came in, she could barely function. She tells the story I brought her on because of her transformation. She was with such an abuser.

That was exactly the scenario. So much so that all these women, he was telling all these women about her in the most negative way, and none of it was true. When I posted her podcast episode to share it, because I was so proud of the changes she made and everything, people were responding a few people from the community.

They said what a liar she is, and I can’t believe it, the hatred. It was purely because exactly what you said, they all believed him.

The Power of Resilience Amid Adversity(15:35): I was deleting comments, and then they were even coming after me. Why do you believe her? All this stuff. And I had a conversation with her. I said, wow, this must be so hard for you. You’ve done such tremendous work to heal from such craziness just with him, and now you have to deal with it from all of these other people.

But the healing she did was so, it really was so tremendous that she saw them differently. It’s not that it didn’t hurt, but it didn’t take her down the same way it did earlier. And that was a testament to all of her healing. But they were coming after me. They were coming after her. I mean, it was exactly what you’re talking about. I had never experienced that.

The Abuser’s ContradictionAnne (16:22): We actually experienced that all the time. Here at BTR, it’s a very familiar thing. I get so many messages from angry husbands who think that it’s BTR’s fault that their wife has finally set boundaries and started making their way to safety. I think it’s really interesting because they always say two simultaneous opposite things at the same time.

When they write, they say, number one, that it’s my fault that I have caused this and that I’m such a bad person. And number two, they want to convince me that she is the bad one, right? So she’s a liar, she’s abusive, she’s terrible. You don’t know that kind of stuff.

I think, wait a minute, abuser, if she really is like this, if she really is abusive and terrible and hurtful, and all the things that you’re claiming, you should be thanking me. Your letter should be thanks to BTR, this awful, terrible, lying, crazy woman, she finally stepped away.

Dynamics of Emotional Abuse(17:28): I’m so grateful. Thank you. They don’t say that it’s my fault that the marriage fell apart and all this stuff, and that she’s terrible, and I’m thinking, you are not making sense. You should be thanking me. And that’s part of the clue that it wasn’t her. And also that it’s not BTR, that it’s your abuse that caused this problem.

It’s your abuse that made her want to get to safety because she felt terrible due to your behavior and due to your character. Any woman who’s been through it has felt that where this person wants to control you with coercion, control, emotional and psychological abuse. So they act like they hate you, but they also don’t want you to leave. It’s very confusing.

If They’re Blaming, They’re not Taking any Responsibility for Their BehaviorDr. Debi Silber (18:18): That’s the type of betrayer, by the way, and who has zero intention of doing anything differently. You can tell because if they’re blaming, they’re not taking any responsibility for any of their behaviors. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

It’s just such a shame because there’s such an opportunity for that person to wake up and say, what the heck have I been doing? Why am I acting like this? Let me just let me do the work and become someone I’m proud of.

Anne (18:50): Debi, thank you so much for spending time talking with us today.

Dr. Debi Silber (18:53): Thank you so much.

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Dr. Debi Silber’s groundbreaking research at The PBT Institute offers more hope to betrayal victims than ever. She’s discussing the five stages of healing from betrayal trauma and more. Healing from betrayal trauma may feel like a distant hope right now. And that’s okay. But know that healing is possible.

This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with Dr. Debi Silber.Part One: Healing From Betrayal Trauma with Dr. Debi Silber (this episode)
Part Two: Is Forgiveness Helpful For Victims of Betrayal?

The Five Stages of Post Betrayal Transformation:* Stage One: Initially, we rely heavily on our physical and mental strengths, often overlooking our emotional and spiritual sides. * Stage Two: This stage involves a profound disruption of our physical, mental, and worldview framework, highlighted by Discovery Day, the most daunting phase, signifying the collapse of our known reality. * Stage Three: Our survival instincts kick in as we tackle the practicalities of our recovery path. * Stage Four: We acknowledge the disappearance of our former normalcy. Although the betrayal cannot be reversed, we reclaim control over our existence and choose how to use our experiences. * Stage Five: The ultimate phase in overcoming betrayal trauma showcases our resilience and personal evolution. Our focus shifts to bodily recovery and prioritizing self-care as a crucial part of our healing process.

To learn more about Dr. Silber’s research and how it can help you, listen to her previous interviews with Anne:

From Betrayal to Breakthrough
Will I Ever Trust Again?
Transformation After Betrayal

https://youtube.com/shorts/rPAbFmxqoDsLearn About Post Betrayal TransformationAnne (00:00): Dr. Debi Silber is the founder of the PBT, which stands for Post Betrayal Transformation Institute. Debbie is a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert, and is a two-time international bestselling author.

Her recent study was about how we experience betrayal and it made three groundbreaking discoveries that change how long it takes to heal. Welcome, Debi. I’m so happy you’re here.

Dr. Debi Silber (03:16): Thanks so much. Looking forward to our conversation again.

Dr. Debi Silber’s Research on Healing from Betrayal TraumaAnne (03:20): Last time you were here you talked about your PhD study and the groundbreaking discoveries you made in the five stages. Can you list them out then we’ll have the link to the full episode in our show notes?

Dr. Debi Silber (03:37): The first discovery was that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a different way to heal. If you’ve been through traumas, death of a loved one disease, even natural disaster and betrayal. You will notice there is a big difference.

The difference is the shattering of the self in betrayal, rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence worthiness, trust. That’s not really affected in other traumas and in betrayal it is. So that type of healing needs its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation.

The Second Discovery: Post Betrayal SyndromeThe second discovery was that there’s this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal.

It’s known as post betrayal syndrome, and you could be walking around with symptoms that you attribute to just daily stressors or aging or whatever. It could definitely be from a betrayal, even if it happened decades ago, time won’t heal it, a new relationship won’t heal. It healing heals it.

The third discovery revealed that, to fully heal from symptoms of post betrayal syndrome to a completely rebuilt state of post betrayal transformation, we must navigate through five proven, predictable stages.

And what’s even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. We know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing from betrayal trauma is entirely predictable when you move through the five stages.

A Hesitation to Start Healing from Betrayal TraumaAnne (05:10): I love talking about that. When we’re talking about that healing from betrayal trauma, I have found that some victims are hesitant. I want to use the word hesitant to begin a healing journey because maybe they feel like somehow they’ll lose something if they heal somehow.

Not moving forward to healing to them signals that it mattered, that it had meaning for them. Can you talk about the hesitancy to heal and maybe where that comes from for some victims?

Dr. Debi Silber (05:57): Yeah, that’s very real. So many of us have so much invested in staying exactly in the space and place. One of the biggest reasons being it’s so familiar, it’s what we know. We don’t have to really think about it.

We don’t have to do anything new or different when we start making changes. First of all, people around us typically don’t like it because they like to knowing where you stood and they don’t like not knowing. But we are venturing into the unknown.

We’re venturing into a new space. I’ve seen this so often with people that come into the PPT Institute where people will actually sabotage their healing.

They don’t want to outgrow, let’s say their support group or they don’t want to outgrow their betrayer so they will sabotage their healing so that nothing changes when they truly embrace the idea that they can’t undo what happened, but they control what they do with it.

There’s a Very Real Grieving ProcessThere’s a very real grieving process that happens. It’s so shocking to people because they’re like, I thought I was doing really well. Why am I so sad now? That sadness is something that’s so unexpected for so many people, but it’s really because you’re moving forward.

So the hesitancy, so much of it has to do with the unknown because it’s so unfamiliar. But there’s so much that happens when you’re willing to move into that space.

Anne (07:23): I also think from a victim blaming point of view, you’re hesitant to heal and that’s why you’re not rather than thinking of it in that way, I want victims to think about safety. How they just have this innate need and desire to be emotionally and psychologically safe and because of the abuse. What they’ve experienced doing something different or doing something new sometimes often can feel unsafe.

So instead of thinking, why am I hesitant? Why wouldn’t I want to heal? Which is sort of a question that might make you feel bad. To think, well, of course I would be concerned about my emotional and psychological safety.

I’ve just been abused for years and of course I want to be careful about what I do next, and I took risks in order to make my relationship work.

A Non-Self Blaming POV(08:23): I gave of myself, I was adventurous and I got really hurt, and now safety is my top priority. So I’m not going to jump in with both feet into healing per se. I’m just going to stick my toe in to make sure that this journey is safe.

As we consider this and aim to reframe it, how can we assist victims in understanding that healing from betrayal trauma is a journey, not a risky proposition with potential for further injury. There are no guarantees, but how can we reframe their perspective to help them recognize that their hesitancy stems from a desire to be safe?

Everything We do is to be SafeDr. Debi Silber (09:10): Think about it. Everything we do is to be safe. So often our intention, we’ve been through so much, we don’t want to take a risk of being hurt again.

This is one of the reasons why typically we will keep people at bay after we’ve been betrayed our hearts were so broken. We don’t want to take the risk of that level of vulnerability and being hurt again, so much of what we’re doing is to be safe.

What I would really invite everybody to consider is when something is a little bit different, your body is so much more perceptive than your mind, so what’s your body telling you about it?

Does it feel open and expansive and sort of freeing or tight and closed? For example, when we teach people how to rebuild trust, we go with most of the most basic feeling so and learn and remember what trust could feel like.

What Does Trust Feel Like to You? When Healing from Betrayal Trauma(10:15): For example, if you see two babies giggling or your dog wagging his or her tail, whatever that is for you, what does that feel like? Maybe that feeling for you represents trust. Then on the other hand, what does a lack of trust feel like?

What does abuse feel like? How does your body register that and sort of lock both of those feelings in? Yes, those feelings may be a bit extreme, but as you are moving through your day check in. Which feeling as you are doing something, the dipping your toe in that feeling, which feeling does it feel closer to?

Anne (10:55):So there’s an amusement park near my home. It’s literally like 10 minutes away, so we always get season passes. For a few years, I would just walk around there and watch people and they were having fun, they were smiling, and I felt like I was in a fishbowl sort of in that their reality was different than mine.

Manufacturing the Feeling of Being Alive(11:46): I remember that at one point I went on one of the roller coasters. My kids were young, so I usually didn’t do that. We just usually would walk around and I felt so alive, that feeling of being alive, I felt like I could breathe again, and it was such a different feeling. I started crying.

I just went on a roller coaster. It wasn’t that big of a deal, but I felt like, oh, I’m alive. I can breathe. And it felt so different and it was basically the same place, the same situation, sort of manufacturing that feeling of being alive. I think if we can somehow, when we’re not feeling it, can really help us get unstuck.

Unfamiliar, but not necessarily badDr. Debi Silber (12:26): It’s a great point, and it’s so true. Your body is letting you know what you’re experiencing, and I’m not saying something that’s terrifying do that, not at all.

There is a feeling of something unfamiliar but not necessarily bad. Maybe on the other end of that experience is just this whole new insight that you didn’t know you had. Or this new level of confidence, or you see a new side to yourself.

And so often when we’re afraid and too hesitant to do anything that feels different, we don’t get the benefit of that, and that’s where a tremendous amount of growth is.

That’s not saying that everybody has to do it at the same level. You choose a level that really feels comfortable and right for you. Even if it’s the most incremental changes, one degree at a time, you’re only moving in one of two directions further or closer to everything you want.

If you do no more than just check in as you do that thing. Say that thing, wear that outfit, eat that food, whatever it is. Which direction is it bringing you towards that feeling of being more open, expansive, free, happy or closer to that feeling of tight constricted and something doesn’t feel right.

Enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free WorkshopAnne (13:53): We have several exercises like this in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that we have where it’s just little tiny incremental things that you can do just today. One of them is noticing one thing that you would be doing even if you were Oprah or even if you were Reese Witherspoon.

If you’re standing there and you’re watching this most beautiful sunset, it’s the same sunset for Oprah, and it’s the same sunset for Reese Witherspoon. It doesn’t get any better than that.

And so there are these moments where you can think, even if my life were perfect, I couldn’t get a better sunset, I would still be watching the same thing. There’s something in that that helps you feel a little bit of peace, a little bit of joy and a little bit of expansiveness in that moment that can help people move forward.

Experiencing Joy: Healing from Betrayal TraumaDr. Debi Silber (14:46): I love that point, and it’s really important to just experience that feeling of joy because so often if you’ve been abused and for years, decades, we forget what joy could feel like, but everybody has their own experience. It could be the simplest thing.

It could be that cup of hot coffee or tea, whatever it is, but tap into what that feels like. Then just kind of question, how could I expand this feeling or have this feeling more often?

Because the more you experience that feeling of joy in a way that feels safe and comfortable for you, the more you’re going to want to experience that again, and then it sort of grows.

And now instead of flooding yourself with stress hormones and chemicals which wreak havoc on us physically, besides mentally and emotionally, now you’re flooding yourself with endorphins that creates healing and repair.

https://youtu.be/EkieMWRbvsoBTR is like an Emergency Room for Healing from Betrayal TraumaAnne (15:45): I’ve been on Debi’s podcast, she’s been on mine. We have remarked that BTR is sort of like the emergency room. You come here because you’re not safe, you’re not stable, you’re currently experiencing abuse. You’ve got to figure out how to make your way to emotional and psychological safety and get to safety so that you can observe from a safe distance. Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions really help women in this phase.

And then as you’re observing kind of feel like, okay, I can make some decisions now. And Debbie’s an expert at post betrayal transformation in where you’re generally safe and stable. Then you’re healing from betrayal trauma.

Well, let’s just talk post-divorce for a minute, maybe five years, maybe even 10 years out, and they’re still hurting. Some victims in this scenario don’t know that they were abused.

They don’t understand that they’re an abuse victim. They’re continuing to be an abuse victim because their ex is still lying about them, still gaslighting, still saying things that are untrue. People are believing what they say.

Post-Separation Abuse & “Forgiveness”(16:52): It’s really hard to heal in that scenario because you don’t know that you were victimized and you’re feeling like maybe I could have done something better or different. And then there’s a whole new level of trauma when you realize that you were a victim of abuse and maybe still are, even if it’s an ex.

A lot of people when you’re out of the relationship and still struggling, say things that are really hurtful and are confusing and that are not helpful about forgiveness.

Like, Hey, why don’t you just forgive? Or, he’s such a nice guy now I don’t know what the problem is. You keep thinking about the things he did to you, but he’s changed when he really hasn’t changed.

You have these feelings that come up when maybe clergy says, well, the answer’s forgiveness. Or a friend says the answer’s forgiveness, and that just doesn’t feel right. The victims think that’s not it.

Can you talk about why forgiveness is such a triggering word. Why most people who are talking about it, right, maybe clergy, say forgiveness is your answer. They’re not talking about it in the right way and they don’t want the victim to apply it in a way that’s actually helpful to them.

They just mean let it go and reconcile. Perhaps not necessarily use it as a way to free yourself from pain. Let’s just talk about that for a bit.

Understanding the Stages of Healing from Betrayal TraumaDr. Debi Silber (18:18): There are a few ways I want to dive into this question. One is it really has so much less to do with the amount of time post-divorce, let’s just say, than what stage are you in as far as the five stages from betrayal to breakthrough?

The scenario you described that is clearly someone stuck in stage three, and that’s the most commonplace.

We get stuck and there’s so much anger, there’s so much frustration and sadness and pain and the days and months and years are going by, but there’s very little healing as far as the person who’s been betrayed. Things are compounded, but nothing is really healing.

And stage three is very action oriented, but action oriented around the problem. It’s when we move to stage four, that’s where transformation begins. By the way, that’s when we are realizing it has really nothing to do with them.

I Can’t Undo This Experience, But I Change How I Move Through It(19:21): I can’t undo this experience, but I change how I move through it. And instead of us giving that person the benefit of our thoughts and our energy and everything, we sort of harness that back and say, you know what? You don’t really deserve that.

I do, and I’m going to use it instead for my own healing and repair. Look at it like this. Best case scenario, we have a hundred percent of our energy.

If we are dedicating and devoting 30, 40, 50 plus percent to what are they doing? Who are they with? How are they experiencing, why are they lying? And everybody thinks they’re so great and all of this. We only have the remainder for our own healing and repair.

So logic has so little to do with healing from betrayal trauma. Here’s where logic really makes sense because when you realize how much energy we’re devoting towards the problem. That’s when it’s debilitating to us because if we were to take that, use it for ourselves, that would move us into stage four.

Stage Four: We’re More Interested & Invested in Our Own Healing from Betrayal Trauma(20:24):That’s just one thing that I want to say off the bat because in stage four, it doesn’t matter what that person is saying. It doesn’t matter who that person is with, we know the truth and we’re more interested and invested in our own healing and repair.

Let’s get to the forgiveness piece When it comes to forgiveness, if forgiveness is done for the wrong reasons, it backfires every time.

How you were saying the clergy with their suggestions, that really has nothing to do with how we feel about the whole forgiveness process. You’re right, you said it. It’s so true. Forgiveness has nothing to do with that other person.

Really what we’re doing is we’re releasing ourselves from the power all that pain has over us. So forgiving doesn’t mean we’re condoning the behavior, we’re setting ourselves up for it to happen again, we’re giving that person a free pass. We’re weak, we’re a sucker.

No, it means we’re releasing the power all that pain has and that connection we have to that person, to that problem, to that pain so that we can heal.

And that’s when forgiveness is very powerful. But if we’re just doing it because it’ll be easier, that’s what everybody else wants, and nothing has changed, that is a recipe for just more challenges and stress related illness, a hundred percent.

Anne (21:47): Debbie and I are going to pause the conversation here, but we will continue it next week, so stay tuned.

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If you’re trying to heal from your husband’s emotional abuse, here are three important factor to consider. These factors will have a significant impact on how quickly you’ll be able to recover.

1. Has His Emotional Abuse Stopped?The first factor that affects how long it will take to heal from emotional abuse is making sure the emotional abuse has stopped. Emotional abuse includes a variety of behaviors that come out of his exploitative privilege. If he thinks his “needs” and “rights” are more important than yours, chances are he’s emotionally abusive.

Is he currently doing any of the following?

• Lying
• Blaming you for things that aren’t your fault
• Stonewalling
• Criticizing
• Gaslighting
• Using pornography / infidelity

If the emotional abuse is currently happening, whether you’re still married, separated, or divorced, if his emotional abuse hasn’t stopped or you haven’t put enough distance between you and his abuse, your healing from it can’t begin.

1. Have You Learned How to Separate Yourself From His Emotional Abuse?Healing from emotional abuse takes as long as it takes you to learn how to separate yourself from the abuse. If you have the right information, healing time can be reduced significantly.

The good news is, you’re strong and capable. The only thing holding you back has been having the correct framework for what’s been happening to you. It’s not your fault. No one teaches the general public about how to separate from emotional abuse.

The other good news, you’ve come to the right place. Betrayal Trauma Recovery specializes in teaching women how to recognize emotional abuse and exactly what to do if you’re experiencing it.

• The FREE BTR.ORG Emotional Abuse Quiz is a great place to start to both get educated about emotional abuse and see if it’s happening to you.

• The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop teaches victims of abuse exactly what’s going on and exactly what to do to make her way to emotional safety.

• Do You Have the Appropriate Support to Heal from His Emotional Abuse?Healing from his emotional abuse takes time, but the duration of the healing process can be significantly reduced when you have appropriate support.

Appropriate support comes from women who have experienced their husband’s emotional abuse and have developed emotional safety. It’s validating and empowering.

You’ll heal faster if the support doesn’t blame you for any of the abuse or suggest that you somehow caused it or enabled it.

Betrayal Trauma Support Group, a daily support for women who want to heal from emotional abuse is the safest place to both learn about and heal from emotional abuse.

On the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, emotional abuse expert Anne Blythe shared her insights on how she developed specific strategies to heal from emotional abuse as quickly as possible.

In this episode, Anne covers these points about Emotional Abuse:* Anne shares how she discovered effective strategies for healing from emotional abuse quickly. * The strategies are completely different from couple therapy and addiction recovery. Those modalities usually suggest that victims had some part to play. BTR strategies assume that victims are strong, brave, and capable. * The strategies Anne teaches in The BTR.ORG Living Free and Message Workshops are effective in to heal from emotional abuse because they put emotional safety first. * These strategies are legally sound, nonviolent, and socially acceptable. They’ll make you look great in court (if you end up in court). * Abusers always escalate the emotional abuse when a victim begins to live free. These methods are the safest way to begin the journey to healing from emotional abuse. * Strategies applicable to those married, divorced, or separated. * IF you’ve benefited from The BTR.ORG Living Free Strategies, Anne would love to talk to you. Similarly, if you have questions about the workshops and want to talk to Anne personally, message her assistant at podcast@btr.org. She’ll be happy to talk to in a podcast episode so that everyone else can benefit from hearing your questions or thoughts. * Those struggling to apply the strategies in a way that works for them can schedule with a BTR Coach for help, specifically Coach Janet and Coach Brianna if you want help implementing The Message Workshop tools. * The BTR.ORG Workshop Strategies – especially the Meditation Workshop can bring you immediate peace and comfort.

Personal Notes:

• Anne is committed to helping women heal from their husband’s emotional abuse.
• She could really use your support right now through prayers, podcast follows, and social sharing.
• Anne is so grateful from the support she receives and the feeling of belonging the BTR Community has brought into her life and the lives of so many of her sisters who have shared their insights.

https://youtu.be/0dV3vEKQ0lgAnne: Many of you have listened to the podcast for a long time and you took the Living Free Workshop. When we used to run it live, there were several issues with the live version. One of them was in four parts, and so people missed a part and they got behind.

How to Recover from Emotional Abuse: The Evolution of Living FreeI decided that we were going to do it online. Let me give you some background on Living Free. I developed the strategies in Living Free and the Message Workshop as I was attempting to deliver myself and my children from my abusive ex.

I had been divorced and he was still being emotionally and psychologically abusive, like post-divorce for eight years. My life was very difficult. Every single day.

I lost a big court case to him. He got more custody. I mean, things were just hard. He was counter parenting. He was canceling my kids’ medical appointments.

Emotional Abuse Post-Divorce(00:51): Many women still experience emotional abuse even after divorce. For example, my ex wasn’t paying half of what he was supposed to pay from the divorce decree. He justified it through constantly undermining me and our children.

So those of you who are married, when we were married, he was difficult the whole time, but I didn’t realize it. I thought back then that boundaries meant telling him very clearly how upset I was with his behavior. Also, maybe giving him an hour long lecture, which didn’t help me be any safer.

He never changed his behavior. We’d go to a lot of therapy. We’d do a lot of pornography, addiction recovery stuff, so that didn’t help. As I started BTR I started thinking, how do we really genuinely get to safety? What is the path?

Anytime any woman who is experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion, if her husband’s using pornography or if he’s having affairs. If you try to go the therapy route or the pornography addiction recovery route.

Why This Workshop Helps Heal Emotional Abuse(01:48): Over the years dealing with thousands of women that come to BTR and just my experience helping people, that doesn’t tend to get us to safety.

In fact, we end up being more and more unsafe. Especially because we’ve been vulnerable with someone who’s just weaponizing our emotions against us. As I’ve been the executive director at BTR for eight years, I’ve been podcasting forever.

I thought, we need clear action steps and they need to work. We ran Living Free for a couple of years live. I found that live, it was really hard for people to understand the concepts.

When I decided to change living free into a video workshop, it was really nice to be able to film the scenarios so that you could see it in the New Living Free Workshop.

There are examples of men who will have this same facial expressions that your husband is giving you. So you’re actually able to see the concepts and process them a little bit better.

Transition to Online Video Workshops(02:58): Those of you who have been waiting, thank you so much for waiting patiently. I wanted to get it right. The other thing I wanted to do was make sure that the concepts worked. So over the years as women have practiced these strategies, we’ve kept in touch with them.

I’ve made sure to talk to them in person. I’ve made sure to see, did it work? Did it help you get to safety ? All the reports back are that the concepts are amazing and that the strategies work. Same thing with the Message Workshop.

I worked with women over two years personally writing their messages, helping them so that we could see does this work? Yes, it does. I know it works. Any effort that we take to get to safety is awesome.

We could resist it in ways that are effective. We can resist it in ways that aren’t effective, but resistance in and of itself is great.

Testing and Proving How To Heal Emotional Abuse(03:55): As we try to think, how can I resist abuse more effectively? That’s where Living Free and Message Workshop come into play.

In the upcoming months, I’m going to have the women who I helped write their messages on the podcast so that you can listen to their stories and listen to the experiences that they had. It was an incredible time to be with them on their journey to safety.

The messages they received were traumatizing. I sort of got secondary trauma from being like, wow, how are we really going to get you to safety? So it was through their help that we developed this and so many women are so brave to experiment to try new things.

It’s not really that hard for the women who I helped to be willing to be sort of test cases for the Message workshop and the Living Free workshop because they’d already tried everything else.

Effective Resistance Against Emotional Abuse(04:52): They tried everything. The therapist had told them they had tried everything that Clergy had told them, and there wasn’t really anything else to try. This is that. It’s totally different than anything else, because it’s strategic.

I, along with my kids, achieved complete liberation from my ex outside of court, proving it works better than anything else. The other issue is that whenever any woman starts to make her way to safety, the abuser is not going to like it.

No matter what type of strategy you use to resist abuse, the abuse will escalate slightly. The only way it doesn’t escalate is if you’re not actually getting to safety. If he feels like, oh, this is the same thing, I’m still able to exploit her, then it’s not going to escalate that much because you’re not actually getting safe.

He’s still actually just exploiting you. So for a lot of women who think he’s not so bad, he’s really good, and then they keep having things happen over and over and then we start using the living free end message workshop strategies,

Abuser’s Reaction When You Start Healing From Emotional AbuseAnne (05:57): They do see a bit of escalation like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I actually can’t exploit her anymore. The women feel better because they’re actually getting to safety.

It is kind of a delicate dance at that point to continue to use those safety strategies through that phase until he finally is just like, oh, I’m never going to be able to exploit her again. These strategies are effective while you’re in a marriage.

They are effective after divorce. They are effective if you are separated, and the good news is they’re all in line with just general good person principles. So they’re kind, I want to put kind in quotes. They don’t involve violence.

They don’t involve behavior that society in general would frown upon. It’s all upstanding behavior. If you have in writing or if they recorded it or if they somehow documented it, you would look great in court.

Applying the Strategies Across Different Situations(06:57): So that’s also really cool. I so appreciate your patience. So many of you have been waiting for this. I just wanted to get it right and so that’s why it took so long. It matters to me that they are tested, that they are proven.

It mattered to me that they would actually work. I know the principles are correct and true principles. My job is to educate you in a way that makes sense. And then there’s the second part, which is application.

The application is where it always gets tricky because it might be different for everyone in their own situation. Application with any principle is an experiment. As you enroll in the Living Free Workshop, as you enroll in the message workshops, just so you can have a base understanding of these safety strategies, keep in mind that the way you apply it is going to make a difference.

If you’re having trouble applying it in a way that’s working, then please schedule a session with one of our coaches.

Educating and Applying Workshop Principles(07:57): Coach Maddie and Coach Brianna are specifically trained to help people with their messages, and then any of the coaches can help with the strategies and living free in BTR.ORG Individual Sessions.

If you have enrolled in the Living Free workshop and you’d like to come on the podcast to share your experience, or if you enroll and you have questions and you want to talk to me about it.

I would love to talk to you about it on the podcast so that we can kind of keep an open discussion about how to apply it and learn as a group as you guys start applying this stuff.

So please email my assistant at podcast@btr.org if you’d like to talk about it on air with other people, and I can answer your questions. We can talk about your specific situation, enroll and then email her at podcast at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and then we can talk on air and that will help everybody.

Anne’s Journey from Emotional Abuse Crisis to Expertise(08:44): You can go to btr.org/workshops to get more information, and I cannot wait for you guys to enroll. You’ll love it. I also want to talk about social media. When I started BTR, I was crying in my basement. I just felt so much pain and I was so scared and so worried.

In the process of the last eight years, I’ve become an expert on emotional abuse through reading and studying, but also experimenting and applying the principles to my own life, delivering myself and my kids from the abuse.

It’s been so fun to help the other women with their messages. I decided, okay, I’m going to be the one that does the social media videos and I’m going to start posting. It’s hard. I don’t want to post about what I ate for breakfast.

The Mission to Reach Women Who Need Help Healing From Emotional Abuse(09:44): That just doesn’t interest me. I don’t want to share stuff I’m doing personally in my life, apparently besides the most personal parts, haha.

This is serious stuff, I want to reach women who need help. That’s what I’ve always wanted to do for the last eight years.

It is my personal mission to make sure that every single woman who cannot figure out what’s going on, who is praying, who is concerned, who is thinking, what therapist do I go to or what program can I get for my husband.

How can I heal my marriage, so that they get correct information about what’s actually going on. My heart is heavy. Thinking about all the incorrect information floating around about emotional and psychological abuse. Especially sexual coercion, especially when it comes to the pornography addiction recovery community and couple therapy community, and how they approach this in a way that they just do not recognize the abuse.

Challenges in Addressing Emotional Abuse(10:52): So I’m on social media doing these videos. If you’re on social media and you wouldn’t mind following and sharing the stuff, I would appreciate it. If not, that totally makes sense. Social media stresses me out.

It’s a little bit scary, but it has been an awesome opportunity to interact with women all over the world and hear their stories. It’s very humbling to know that there are just so many women who need help. I’m grateful that you found BTR.

I’m grateful when any woman shares the message of truth about abuse, about how abusive pornography, addiction or pornography use in a marriage is so that we collectively can reduce the amount of suffering to women throughout the world.

I would love to save marriages, and make families whole. I used to refer to some men’s programs for abusers. In seeing the aftermath of it, they weren’t solving that root cause of his abuse, and in so many cases, the men were weaponizing the stuff they learned in these programs.

Anne’s Reflection on How Men’s Programs Don’t Stop The Emotional Abuse(12:00): You’ll see that if a man wants to change, this is what he’ll do and you can see it in living free really, really clearly. He will of his own free will take action after eight years of witnessing women and talking to them about how did it go in this men’s program?

How did it go in this type of therapy? How did it go? Usually at first, they think it’s great. Usually at first they’re like, oh, it worked really, really well. And then I talked to him a year later and they’re like, oh, my word. I didn’t know he was still lying to me.

The therapist said that I could trust him and I couldn’t, or in some cases he did a polygraph and he passed the polygraph, but they still felt uncomfortable. Then later found out that he lied really well because he passed the polygraph, but he was still lying. Women’s emotional and psychological safety is my absolute top priority.

https://youtu.be/Zph1yh2jOjADisillusionment with Men’s Recovery Programs(12:56): I just don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. It’s just not something that I think a victim of abuse should ever even have to consider. Rather than think about how can I help my husband be a better person, really need to focus on their emotional and psychological and sexual safety.

Hopefully, as a result of her getting to safety, she can observe from a safe distance and he will realize as he wants to change. That is the best case scenario, and as described in Lundy Bancroft’s book and the verbally abusive relationship and basically all really solid abuse books.

That’s the only route, I wish there was another one. I tried to figure it out for a few years, I did., I thought, can a program do this? I tested it out. It didn’t, and I feel bad about that, but probably all of you were curious too, right?

Marriage vs. Pre-Marriage Counseling Discrepancies(13:52): All of us were. If I could go back in time, I was hoping so much for a program to save my family, and now I don’t think that ever would’ve existed. The hope is, I hope that he figures it out because when it comes to these behaviors like, don’t lie to your wife, is pretty low bar.

It drives me crazy when people are like, oh, well, you’ve just set the bar too high. All men use porn, and if you want to be in a marriage then you kind of have to deal with abuse. I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t think all men are abusive.

It’s not too high of a bar to expect that your husband doesn’t lie to your face. I don’t think it’s too high of a bar that you expect your husband genuinely cares about you and that he’s not just manipulating you to exploit you.

Programs for Emotional Abusers Don’t Work(14:39): I mean, that’s the very lowest bar to think that these men haven’t heard it somewhere before, like church or therapy or their work, sexual harassment training. Really, do we think these men are that ignorant and if they are, you see the concern there?

I’ve been thinking a lot about how, at least in my faith, they would for sure be like, okay, if he doesn’t treat you well, if he lies to you, if he uses porn, do not date him anymore. Break up. But if you are in a marriage then they don’t give the same advice.

They’re like, well, he’s a good guy and he’s trying to get help, or he’s going to get better. I’m wondering why the difference in counsel between pre-marriage and after marriage, it’s mind boggling to me.

Before you’re married, if you said, does this guy know that lying is wrong? They’d be like, well, if he doesn’t know it’s wrong or if he knows it’s wrong and he does it anyway, you should not date him anymore.

Dealing with Abusive Behavior Without External Programs(15:41): But after marriage, oh, he didn’t learn that anywhere. No one’s ever told him that lying is bad, so he needs to go to a program that’s just not true. He for sure knows, and he’s choosing to do it in order to be able to exploit you.

These issues are complex. They are long-term. I feel like the strategies in the BTR Living Free Workshop and the Message Workshop really accurately describe what’s happening and will give you actual action steps that work that don’t put you in danger, and that also leave space for him to change.

They leave space to just observe, to see does he want this? Is this the kind of lifestyle that he wants? That was one of the things that was, I think the hardest for me was when I was observing from a distance, and I mean at first I thought somebody needs to tell him he doesn’t know.

A Woman’s Safety From Emotional Abuse as the Central Focus(16:42): After a while, I thought, of course he knows because he would act so awesome sometimes, so he knows what to do. He just doesn’t want to lose his exploitative privilege. It was heartbreaking to watch him continue to make those choices as I was waiting for him to make different choices, which he didn’t make.

I ended up divorced and then being abused for eight years after. I have heard stories of people who use these strategies and then he realizes, which is cool. Neither of those scenarios involves trying to get him in a program or trying to help him change.

Center on a woman who is getting to safety from emotional abuse, emotional, and psychological safety, so those workshops give those action steps. Very clear step.

I also did the meditation workshop because there were so many times where I was so stressed out. I was crying and I couldn’t stop or I couldn’t really feel anything. The meditation workshop helps women feel peace and loved immediately when they need comfort and they can’t get comfort any other way.

Relief through Meditation Workshop(17:56): That is also available through btr.org/meditation. Anyway, sorry. Just a lot of information today, but I’ve had so much going on. I’ve been so busy for the last three or four years developing these things, testing them, trying them out with women, and I’m really tired actually.

I’m really tired. If you’ve been listening for a while and you’re so inclined, I would appreciate your prayers. Especially as I embark on new things like social media and I’m almost done with my book. It’s been a hard road and I’m really tired, and as much as I want to rest this second.

I hear a woman in need or I get a message on social media or someone emails or I find out that someone that I know in real life is going through emotional abuse. Then my exhaustion sort of gets set aside and I think, how can I not help?

Appreciation for Support For Healing from Emotional Abuse (18:58): There’s no way. There’s no way I could see a woman in pain and in need who needs these strategies and not be there. Because I can’t help everybody personally, that’s why I developed the workshops, and that’s also why we have coaches here.

They’re so well trained, they’re incredible. I cannot be everywhere at once. I wish I could be though. I’m just of course exhausted. I think you’re probably exhausted too.

Emotional abuse has a way of doing that. As much as it’s very energizing to help emotional abuse victims is also just exhausting to be dealing with abuse all the time, so thank you so much for your prayers.

Thank you so much for your well wishes and your support. It has meant so much to me over the years. I am here, working hard. I will continue to work hard, so, so glad that living free and message workshops have finally launched.

Request for Prayers and Continuing the Mission(19:55): I’m so glad to finally have the energy, I don’t know. I wouldn’t be here and I wouldn’t have learned these things and I wouldn’t have had the time or the ability to learn these strategies and then also experiment with them with women.

Had you not supported BTR by listening, so thank you. One of the main ways that you can help get the word out is just by following the podcast, just click follow on Spotify or Apple Podcast.

That helps a ton sharing social media if you feel like I do and you don’t want any other woman to suffer, those are really good ways to help out. I love your comments.

It’s not often that I fish for validation, I guess, but I could really use your prayers right now. I’ve been in really tough spots. It’s you, the listeners, the BTR community who have got me through it.

Gratitude for Listeners Who Are Likely Experiencing Emotional Abuse Themselves(20:53): You tell me or you tell the coaches. It was BTR that helped me get through this hard time. You helped me get through the hard time of being on the front lines every day, interacting with women all over the world who are going through this.

It’s such an honor to be on these front lines and to hear your stories, to sit with you in the pain. It is an honor to know you. It is an honor that you listen, and I’m so grateful that we work together to make this world a better place. Thank you so much.

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In a world that has normalized pornography and romanticizes unhealthy relationships, parents need help to learn how to teach healthy sexuality to their children. Luckily, there are resources to help parents teach healthy sexuality in a way that works for everyone.

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with Dina Alexander.Part One: The “Sex Talk”: What YOU Need to Know
Part Two: Learn How to Teach Your Kids Healthy Sexuality (this episode)

3 Ways Parents Can Teach Healthy SexualityWhen it comes to teaching healthy sexuality, it’s important to make sure the resources you use really help your kids:

• Initiating open & honest conversations to teach healthy sexuality. Conversations relating to various aspects of sex, body image, pornography, the potential influence of media, and relationships.
• Teaching media literacy. As children and teens begin to understand the intents and impacts of the media, they may be better equipped to seek out and develop healthy relationships and a healthy understanding of sex.
• Emphasizing the importance of healthy relationships. In the BTR community, we understand how difficult it can be to teach healthy relationships when emotional & psychological abuse have been present in your home. However, Educate and Empower Kids has a wide variety of resources available to assist parents in teaching these concepts. Not only do they have incredible resources for children, but for parents as well.

Removing Sexualization to Teach Healthy SexualityAnne (00:00): Talking about “modesty” is one way to bring up healthy sexuality. Well, I think about a professional surfing competition. For example, a women’s professional surfing competition, their uniform is going to be a swimsuit.

(03:05): If you’re going to be like, well, I can’t interact with people or I’m not going to take this seriously. If you don’t teach your kids, this is not a sexual situation. This woman is a competitive athlete. I think it’s so anti-porn to be like women exercising in competitions, women on track teams, women doing gymnastics, whatever. This is not a sexual situation.

This is their uniform that they’re wearing to do a sport and that needs to be respected. It’s crazy to me that there are men who are so conditioned to view women as sexual objects that they think of surfing as a sexual situation or track or the hurdles. It’s not. The hurdles is not sexual.

She’s just jumping over hurdles. We need to take that analogy way too far. That’s another thing I want to talk to my kids about is if you use porn, you might start thinking that there’s sexual things going on all over the place. In your head, you might make it sexual because you’re watching someone in a surfing competition or a track or any other scenario.

The Impact of Media on Perception on Healthy SexualityDina Alexander (04:16): Our brains are conditioned that way for everybody who’s like, oh, porn is not addictive. If you don’t believe that, that’s one thing, but also to think that it does not change your brain and affect you.

I always refer back to the few months, I don’t know how long ago, maybe 15 years ago. I read romance novels for a few months and I could see that I was starting to objectify people.

It did not take long for me to start thinking of other people as sexually available before they had just been other people that I walked past or worked out next to in my little community center gym.

Again, these are great, great discussions to talk about how media, social media, television, videos, porn. How they are just so powerful to our brains and that we are getting different messages about sex all the time, but that we have to really stop and think, and so that’s why this is such a great discussion to have over and over again. Now is always the time to talk to teach healthy sexuality.

“I want my kids to form their own ideas and opinions about what is amazing about sex.”Dina Alexander, Educate and Empower Kids

(05:19): You’re watching sports, okay, maybe you pause it and talk about isn’t that an amazing athlete? Look at her do the high jump. Can you believe that she is able to jump that high? Are we talking about how powerful and important and special our bodies are.

But, also talking about what is it that might cause us whether we’re walking past Victoria’s Secret at the mall or something else that what is it that affects us? Because each of us, it’s individual and helping our kids see that within themselves and identify what impacts them and what is healthy and what is not so that they can form.

Because to me, what really angers me about pornography is that it forces on our kids this idea of what is sexy and what is not hot and what is not.

I want my kids to form their own ideas and opinions about what is amazing about sex, what is amazing about their body and their partner’s body, not what this industry of McDonald’s sex is saying is sexy and wonderful. So that’s why I think that’s just a great discussion.

Teach Healthy Sexuality: Discussing Media Manipulation and Its ImpactAnne (06:29): Yeah, it is. Nothing about it is unquote sexy. It’s just gross and violent and vile and evil and exploitative.

Dina Alexander (06:41): It’s abusive, like you said. I love that you said that. To put that in that context for our kids, to help them to see how manipulative it is, because that right there is a great discussion.

Maybe this is an easy sex talk for a parent who’s intimidated of looking at different media and seeing how it manipulates us. A movie I liked, but I cannot watch again, is Interstellar.

To me, it’s a fascinating movie, but to me it is so emotionally strong and in a sense manipulative, because I get so involved in this movie and the sadness and this and that. It’s a tool that is used that media is so powerful.

Whether it’s by music, whether it’s by what we’re seeing, whether it’s by an explosion or whether it’s by a naked body, and helping our kids see how this is meant to manipulate us, and at the end of the day, it’s about making money, right?

Navigating the Challenges of Pornography in Modern Relationships(07:35): It’s not about educating us, helping us feel good about ourselves, helping us to have great sex lives. It’s not, it’s about manipulating us to make money, and so boom, it’s so important for our kids to see that because this is their future. This is what they are going to be seeing around them.

So my youngest right now is 17, and I remember when I first started this a decade ago, talking to my daughter and saying, Hey, it’s very likely that the boys you go out with are going to have an issue with pornography. She had four boyfriends in high school.

Three of them happened to be a member of our church. I’m a Latter Day Saint, and they all had an issue with pornography.

Anne (08:15): Didn’t we have your daughter on the podcast talking about these? It’s also something that comes up in BTR.ORG Group Sessions a lot.

Dina Alexander (08:18): Oh, yes. That’s right. Thank you. Then, but also having to now tell my sons, when they started dating. Saying, the days have changed because that industry, that porn industry is now targeting our daughters so much that you are going to need to have those discussions when you’re dating.

When you’re thinking about marrying your partner, you’re going to have to have discussions about porn and how that has affected your and your partner’s ideas of sex.

Whether you’ve seen porn once or five times or 50 times, it is going to affect how you think about sex and how you think about your own body. You’re going to need to have those discussions that it’s our sons need to be aware of that as well. Now, it’s no longer just preparing our daughters.

30 Days of Sex Talks for Ages 12+Anne (09:03): Alright, Dina, so I’ve got 30 Days of Sex Talks for Ages 12 Plus, the Second Edition in my hands, and I’m just going to randomly flip this thing open and see what we’ve got and let’s just talk about this concept here as we close today. Does that sound like a plan? It’s my favorite book to help me teach healthy sexuality.

Dina Alexander (09:50): Sounds great.

Anne (09:51): Alright, here we go. So I’m closing my eyes and I am randomly doing this. Hopefully we won’t get your least favorite one. Alright. Oh my word. You’ll not believe this. Page 17, “Pornography,” literally, that was just completely random.

Completely random. So when I’m looking at this book, I can see a couple things. There are some definitions, for example, so it’s got the definition of pornography, how to start the conversation.

Exploring the Interactive Features of Dina’s E-Books to Teach Healthy SexualityDina Alexander (10:23): The Kindle version, these are all clickable links. If you buy the book on our website, you can choose to buy the Kindle version or another kind of ebook that is good for any kind of tablet or laptop. So then those are linkable.

If you buy the print version, then you would have to type in the name of the article. Most of these are articles going back to our website that have just a little more information or if you want to go a little deeper on certain topics. That’s why we have these additional resources. But like I said, if you buy it from the website as a PDF or as a Kindle, those are all clickable links.

Anne (11:04): Awesome. So one of the sections is questions for your child. What an great way to teach healthy sexuality. So you’ve got a start the conversation and then you’ve got some ideas and then questions for your child. Let’s just read run of ’em randomly. Okay.

I’m going to close my eyes and I’m just going to point to one of these questions. Here we go. Ready there. Okay. How do your friends feel about porn? That’s a really good question. When you got feedback from parents, how did they feel about this question section?

Thoughtful Questions to Teach Healthy Sexuality to KidsDina Alexander (11:32): They loved it because we don’t just pick typical questions of, oh, okay, what do you think pornography is?

Where have you seen it? It’s like, yeah, those are important foundational questions, but again, we want to create this big picture for helping our kids understand the world around them. Especially something like pornography or in the lesson proceeding.

It’s just about more different media and how it affects our sex life. These are simple questions. How do your friends feel about porn? It’s typically not as threatening because you’re not putting your child on the spot, you’re letting them just think about what are the attitudes around sex?

That’s been one of the most eye-opening questions for me to ask my kids what they’re hearing at school. For my daughter, for my two sons, it has been amazing and sometimes scary.

When I did a few years ago, I did a little thing on predators for my YouTube about how to identify predators, et cetera. I had my son at the time, my middle son who was 16, edit it, and he goes, Mom, everything you said in there was right.

Helping Children Identify Harmful Behaviors(12:41): And I said, what do you mean? In my mind, I’m like, well, of course it’s right. But he said, I had a kid in my class one time show me pictures of nudes of his girlfriend, and I asked him, what are you doing with those? How did you get those?

And he started telling my son how he got those, and he said, Mom, it was everything that you had said in that predator conversation. It was the grooming her, giving her compliments, making her feel special, blah, blah, blah.

And so that right there, great conversation with my son about predators, but helping them to see that these things are going on around them.

Unfortunately kids are learning predatory behavior at younger and younger ages, thanks to pornography again. Is just a simple question that for any of these topics.

When you go to the masturbation topic, abusive relationships topic, or the positive aspects of sex section in this book, asking them what they’re hearing in school. Asking what their friends are talking about is eyeopening. If we don’t teach healthy sexuality, they will learn it from somewhere else.

“We want our kids to understand that we’re a safe place.”(13:46): But my youngest now, again, who’s 17, him telling me about kids, talking about their recent sex-capades of their body count in the locker room. Talking about, oh, that they’re dating and now they have moved on the fifth or sixth date have moved to oral sex.

These things are just helpful to us as parents to get that understanding of what our kids are going through, what they are experiencing. It is up to us to teach healthy sexuality.

And also it typically helps us realize, okay, I need to talk about these because everyone else in a sense is talking to our kids about sex in some way. We want our kids to understand I’m a safe place. I’m not going to be angry or judgmental. If you’ve heard something, if you’ve experienced something, I’m here to love you, give you information and help you be a strong human being.

Helping Children Understand the Abusive Nature of PornographyAnne (14:37): Well, and for me, always teaching them that these things are abusive. So this is pornography, but it’s not just wrong. The reason why it’s wrong is because it’s abusive. It’s not wrong because your pastor said it’s wrong.

It’s not because it’s embarrassing, it’s wrong because it’s abusive to another human being. In order to engage in that type of behavior, predatory behavior, you are being abusive, you’re harming someone, and that is so, so important for people to learn.

I think back in the day, well, if I use porn, it’s going to hurt me. Maybe I’ll go to hell, but at least I’m not hurting anybody else. They didn’t realize 10, 15 years ago.

But anytime you do any of the behaviors surrounding porn, deceit, hiding any of those things, using using manipulation, you are abusing someone and that makes you an abuser and you need to stop in order to be healthy

You can learn how to teach healthy sexuality.Dina Alexander (15:35): And that we can do better that just because again, other people are doing it, our neighbor, our friends at school, our friends at lunchtime, that we don’t have to do that. And that again, that there are simple ways that even that our kids can stand up and say to their friends, that’s not cool.

That’s bigger than you have any idea of, and I love that you said that about just, again, teaching our kids that it’s abusive because that’s what I love about our books is we’ve made them very open so that you can put your knowledge, your experience, your research, your values into each conversation.

All of us have different things that we want to emphasize, that we understand that we’ve been through. To teach healthy sexuality we just get on this whole other level and we want our kids to get it. And so that’s where these can be such powerful discussions.

“We took them to that place of safety and openness.”(16:26): One of the best side effects of when we were preparing these books way back was how great the conversations were. We would set out to have a five minute conversation, maybe 10 minutes, and our kids would come back to us with such great questions. It was a great opportunity to teach healthy sexuality.

The discussion usually went 30, 40 minutes because they had such insightful questions, because we took them to that place of safety and openness.

And also we were asking these questions from the books that were, again, not just typical, okay, do you understand penis and vagina? It’s like, okay, great. They get that there’s so much more to sex these days that we want them to understand that full amazing picture.

Anne (17:08): Or the full just blah picture. I mean, it’s great. I simultaneously tell my kids sex, for some people feels really good and it’s awesome. And for me it was just not great. I didn’t like it. And maybe your dad is abusive. Most likely, yes, that is why, but I have never had sex with someone who wasn’t abusive.

Teach Healthy Sexuality: Inaccurate Media Portrayals of SexDina Alexander (17:30): But I love that they’re getting that picture. That they’re understanding all the pieces to it, that it’s not like television. It’s not this amazing screaming simultaneous orgasm every time, and everyone lives happily ever after that again, that there is –

Anne (17:45): It’s like never like that for the people who are like, oh, sex is beautiful. I’m always like, is it? I don’t know. It’s fine. It’s fine. I’m not anti-sex for sure, but I just didn’t enjoy it at all because of my situation.

To let our sons know and our daughters that sex can be, I hear from other people, I believe you, that it can be great. That’s awesome. Shine on, good for you.

But if there’s abuse involved, it’s not going to be fun. It’s not going to be enjoyable. It’s going to be miserable for somebody. And also the person who even is the predator in that situation, it might feel good for that moment, but they’re not getting what sex was meant to be about.

Understanding Abusive SexDina Alexander (18:33): There’s just no way for an abuser or a predator like that to not go to that dark place after maybe they got off, but then they go back to that dark cave. So again, it’s –

Anne (18:44): Well, it’s all about them.

Dina Alexander (18:45): Absolutely.

Anne (18:46): It’s all about them. It’s about that hit and it’s about their orgasm and it’s about their relationship to themselves, but it’s never about the we.

Dina Alexander (18:55): That’s a perfect analogy for porn because it’s never about the partner. It’s always about themselves, my own orgasm, my own pleasure, and what I’m going to do to you, not what we’re going to do together and create and share together as sex partners.

So that’s exactly right. And again, helping our kids see the ins and outs, but I think also helping them understand the power that they have within them to have good relationships. Also to help to create that life for themself by empowering them with this kind of knowledge, to understand that full picture, that yes, sex can be amazing, but sex can be horrific if not done kindly.

Sex Is Not One-Size-Fits-AllAnne (19:42): Or just boring. It can also just be boring. I remember telling my ex, is it okay if I read, can I just read during this? Because this is so boring.

Dina Alexander (19:56): Oh man. I would’ve loved to have seen that face when you said that.

Anne (19:59): Yeah. I was like, what’s going on? I just feel like you’re just like this hairy bear and you’re literally, you’re poking me with a stick on the inside and it’s just not that fun. I’m sorry. Would you want to get poked with a stick? No, no. Anyway, he was always so offended when I was just like, this is just whatever. Why is this happening?

Dina Alexander (20:20): I love you. I love you.

Anne (20:28): Alright, well, you’re amazing, Dina. Thank you so much for spending time with me today, and talking about how to teach kids healthy sexuality Dina,

Dina Alexander (20:41): Thank you so much for having me. I loved it.

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J.R. is back on The BTR.ORG Podcast sharing her story. She struggled to know if she should divorce her emotionally abusive husband. Then she struggled to know if her her religious beliefs allowed her to divorce him for emotional abuse. She also struggled with whether or not she wanted to divorce him. If you relate to this, hopefully this information and her story will help you.

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with J.R.Part One: My Husband Says I’m the Problem. Is He Right?
Part Two: Divorcing Your Emotionally Abusive Husband: What You Can Expect (this episode)

Should I Divorce My Emotionally Abusive Husband?Here at BTR, your emotional safety is our number one priority. If you’re wondering if you should divorce your emotionally abusive husband, that’s a question only you can answer, but here are some things to consider:

• Should any woman be married to a man who emotionally abuses her?
• Should any woman be married to a man who genuinely doesn’t care about her well being?
• Should any woman be sacrifice her emotional and psychological safety for other perceived values (ie money, child-care, religion, etc)

Can I Divorce My Emotionally Abusive Husband? Some women wonder if they can get divorced if it’s “just” emotional abuse. Unfortunately, some inaccurate religious scripting or societal scripting has given women the impression that they’re not able to divorce an emotionally abusive husband just “emotional abuse”. Here are some questions to consider.

• Does God love you? Would He want you to be abused in anyway: emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, financially, sexually?
• Can you go to college or get a job? (Psst: The answer is YES!!)
• Is it good for your children to witness a woman think that God doesn’t love her or that she’s incapable of taking care of herself or her children?

Do I Want to Divorce My Emotionally Abusive Husband?So many women in this situation have a hard time deciding what they want to do because they share children, they remember the good times, they think about the so-called good qualities about their husband (often not realizing it’s just part of his manipulation). Here are some questions to consider when women are wondering if the want to divorce their husband due to his emotional abuse.

• If you knew exactly what he was like when you met him, would you marry him now?
• Do you want to be married to someone who you would not want to marry?
• Do you want your children emulating his behaviors or character?

Anne breaks down why victims feel crazy during this stage of the process. If you want to talk to one of our coaches today about your situation, attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Anne (00:01): We talked about the beginning of J.R.’s story in last week’s episode. J.R. why do you think it takes victims so long to understand that they’re being abused? All of these years that you went to therapy and you went to help with clergy and they further abused you. Why do you think it takes so long?

J.R. (02:02): That’s a great question.

Anne (02:04): I want to say it’s not the victim’s fault, that’s for sure.

Why is it So Hard to Identify the Emotional Abuse?J.R. (02:06): Yeah, it’s obviously, it’s not the victim’s fault. I think maybe for some people they might say nobody even tried to tell me or warn me, but I will say I did have family and friends who were concerned about my relationship, but I saw them.

I had such a high view of the marriage relationship because of the spiritual upbringing and because of sort of the twist that my ex put on it through the theological training in school that I just saw all these people as their opposition to my marriage.

It’s a spiritual attack on my relationship. But I will say that my relationship with the church and religion has become very complicated because I do attribute a lot of the way of thinking that kept me for so long in that relationship to spiritual or religious teachings that I think personally I believe are not biblical and don’t actually align with what I believe Jesus teaches.

But when you’re told that from so many sources that you are supposed to be able to trust and people who are supposed to be leading and being guided by the Holy Spirit, it’s really hard to undo some of that indoctrination.

Realizing Your Husband is Emotionally AbusiveAnne (04:05): Yeah, I agree. And also you care. It’s really sad how perpetrators know how to take the things that women really, really care about and weaponize it against them. It’s benefiting the abuser and it’s not benefiting her at all.

And to realize that God loves us, he genuinely thinks we’re delightful and funny and fun and awesome, and he created our talents, and some of us might not have cooking talents, and that’s okay because we have other talents, and when we were created for the good of humanity, including ourselves, we’re part of that.

And so it’s so sad to me when these have all just been subjected to what would benefit him to our expense. It’s so hard to see that. So you find BTR and you realize, whoa, he’s abusing me. You’re listening to the podcast. Can you talk about what steps you start to take at this point?

Attending Couple Therapy With An Emotional AbuserJ.R. (05:20): I think at this point we had already been seeing a therapist together, which I do not recommend. I mean, obviously I didn’t know that I was in an abusive marriage, an abusive relationship, but now hindsight never go to couples therapy with an abusive person.

But we were seeing a couples therapist who actually, I will say even before I found BTR, she feels like this guardian angel sent from heaven because

I think that God moved me all the way across the country to meet this therapist because she started seeing us and when we started talking to her, the pornography thing came up, but it wasn’t the crux of why we were there. But she immediately started talking about betrayal trauma and had him write a therapeutic disclosure.

A Therapist Who Identified the Emotional AbuseAnne (06:34): Was she a pornography addiction recovery specialist?

J.R. (06:38): I don’t think she was certified, but she herself had walked through this type of betrayal,

Anne (06:50): So she knew kind of enough to do a disclosure, which we don’t recommend here. But not enough to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we got to stop the couple therapy.

I Became Aware it was Emotional AbuseJ.R. (07:01): And I would say with the disclosure, I don’t think any of this was a great way to go about this. The route that my story went was incredibly painful and I think unnecessarily so because when she had him do the disclosure, I just knew in my heart that he wasn’t going to be honest and told her as much in one of our meetings.

I said, I don’t even want to hear this because I know that it’s going to be a bunch of lies. I think it started to wear him down. It started to poke holes in his facade.

It started to get me thinking, and I think that’s probably how I did find your podcast. I started to become aware of this concept of betrayal trauma. And so searching for resources found BTR, and then I got partial disclosure after partial disclosure. It was very painful.

It was all right around the time that my third child was born, and about a month after my third child was born, things were pretty rocky between us, me and my ex. And one night it just came out of him like a flood. He told me his version of this is the whole truth.

Partial Truths, Trickle Disclosures – Key Tactics of An Emotionally Abusive Husband(09:59): I like how you said his version, this is a common pattern that they’ll say, this is the whole truth, and they’ll tell a really kind of horrific thing that they’ve done. Sorry, I didn’t mean to laugh.

J.R. (10:11): It’s horrible.

Anne (10:12): And then you think, wow, that has to be everything, because he’s like, I’m getting it all out on the table, and then you find out later it was not because there’s something else he doesn’t want to say. So he tells you his version of this is the whole story?

“That’s the device I use to look at porn.”J.R. (10:26): Yes, and actually we’re sitting in our living room. He points across the living room at a computer that was actually used for ministry related purposes and specifically with kids’ ministry. So it wasn’t even his own personal computer, but he points at this computer, this laptop, and says, that’s the device that I use to look at porn. So it was never on my radar. No one was monitoring it.

It was never something that I ever would’ve even thought that he was using for lots of reasons. I mean, it didn’t belong to him. And not only did it not belong to him, it belonged to a church and it was being used for kids’ ministry. So it’s a great place to go looking up porn. I think I got up and I think by the next day I had purchased tickets for me and my kids to fly back home to Pennsylvania.

Separating from an Emotionally Abusive Husband(11:33): And at the time, we were just going to separate. At this point, once again, divorce, it’s not even an option. It’s not on my radar, but I knew I needed space from him. I needed to get away from him. I needed lots of distance for me and my children.

So we actually bought tickets for him, a ticket for him as well. Mine was just a one way because I didn’t know when I would return to Washington. His was both ways so that he could help me get there with the kids. I would’ve been flying with three kids, three and under. So he flew with me and then was going to get right back on the plane and go back to Washington and we were going to separate.

Navigating an Emotionally Abusive Husband Being Manipulative During Separation(12:23): And long story short, it didn’t take too long into our separation for me to realize that I was never going to go back to Washington. If he wanted our marriage to work and if our marriage was going to work, he would have to come back to Pennsylvania where my support system was so that we could potentially salvage our marriage.

So I told him that and he spent a considerable amount of time negotiating, didn’t want to lose his job at the church out there, didn’t want to lose his position of power and authority, didn’t want people to know the truth, spread some lies about what was really going on between us, made it seem like I was going through postpartum depression, and that’s why I was away.

People from the church were texting me and telling me to use this essential oil and to eat this kind of food and oh, the baby blues are so hard, aren’t they?

“I wasn’t going to be heard unless I had men vouching for me.”(13:38): And it was a very difficult time. And throughout it all, it was becoming more and more clear to me how bad the situation was, and I was becoming a lot more realistic about the fact that it was not going to change. So we were supposed to be separated for six months and that didn’t happen. I was living with my parents temporarily with my three young kids in a very small house. We went through this whole thing with the church out there that he was working with.

Of course, I had to have men in church leadership speak on my behalf and stand up for me in any way to even be heard. That whole thing was very complicated as well. I feel very grateful for those men and I love them. I feel like they are like brothers to me, but it was very eye-opening to see that I wasn’t going to be heard unless I had men vouching for me.

So when he realized that the church out there actually gave me his stipend and released him from his position, he realized that he had nothing else out there.

Anne (15:12): Good for them. That does not happen very often. So that’s great news.

When It’s All Just ManipulationJ.R. (15:17): Yes. I think once we got over the hump, once they actually heard me and listened to what was going on, I do think they handled it very well. So he came back to Pennsylvania, got a bunch of praise and glory for coming back to his family to make things right, and he was the big hero for coming back. And I was like, you just came back because you didn’t have anything else out there.

You tried so hard to salvage a life that you knew your wife and children were never going to be a part of. And then when that didn’t work, you came back. But he made some steps that I guess kind of looked like progress to me when he moved back here. In hindsight, it was all just manipulation just to get what he wanted, which was for us to be living together again.

“I Moved Back in With My Abusive Husband”(16:18): So we moved into an apartment together again to try to salvage the marriage. It was way too soon. I had to set boundaries. I had set the things that I needed to see during our separation for me to be able to move towards reconciliation with him. And he didn’t meet any of those. I mean, he bucked against everything, but I so desperately wanted it to work that I still moved back in with him.

We were only living together for about two months, probably a little less. And the thing that finally made me leave him for good unfortunately, was being hospitalized just to clear the air, wasn’t physical abuse from him, but it was a mental breakdown and I was suicidal and committed myself to the ER.

What Happens When An Emotionally Abusive Husband Doesn’t Go Away After Separation?Anne (17:22): I’m so sorry to hear that. I did want to say that so many women, when they do let him back in the house, things get way worse. Maybe he’ll promise that things will get better and maybe not necessarily physically. He didn’t put you in the hospital by punching you in the face, but mentally you were in such bad shape after six, seven weeks of being with him in your home, in your vicinity, that that’s where you were at. I mean, that’s how bad things got.

I always want to warn women it’s going to get worse. Lundy Bancroft talks about if that happens, then they think they have to assert even more control or they’re going to lose control of you again. So once they get you in their vicinity again, then at the very least the emotional and psychological abuse is going to ramp up.

“Why am I going crazy?”(18:16): But it might not seem like that to you because it might seem very nice. They might seem kind, and that’s when you really think you’re going crazy because you’re like, he’s not yelling at me, he’s not angry. Why am I going crazy? I’m not sure what his behaviors were, but some women experienced it like that because he’s being great. He’s doing the dishes and he is doing the stuff.

And in my ex’s situation, he was reading scriptures every night and initiating family prayer and that kind of thing. And I thought, I’m genuinely going crazy. What is happening? I always felt like my sanity was hanging by a thread, and I was like, is that thread still there? So as you’re hospitalized, is that your indication to you about how bad it is?

Processing the Self-Blame Helped J.R. Leave Her Emotionally Abusive HusbandJ.R. (19:00): Yeah, once again, grew up in a very religious home. So most of the time felt like, oh, well, I just need to pray more, or I just need to read my Bible more.

And that just wasn’t doing it, obviously, because my mental health matters and I needed more than that, but I wanted so badly to make it work, not so much because I loved him, but because we had children, and obviously this wasn’t the case, but I felt like if I left him that I caused our children to be in this quote broken home, which I hate that term, but that’s what it is, what people would see it as.

So I think being hospitalized, having that breakdown, realizing that I didn’t want to live it, took that for me to say, well, if I’m not around for my kids, that’s not what’s best for them either.

Anne: I wrote The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop for women who are going through this type of absolute mental trauma – because there’s a point where you’ve done as much as you can. You just can’t do anymore. The Meditations help women heal without any effort. Women don’t have to do more, they can just relax and listen and it will heal them.

“If you stay with him, you’re never going to get better.”J.R. (20:12): Yeah, I started to think if staying in this maddening relationship is abusive, relationship is what’s best for my children, they might not have a mom by the end of it. I remember being at my sister’s house after being hospitalized. My sister was really amazing.

She took a week off of work just to be there for me and my children, whatever I needed. And I remember being at her house. She cared for all the kids, hers and mine. They were just going in and out of the bath. There was eight of them, so just one after the other. And I just remember her saying, J.R., if you stay with him, you’re never going to get better.

She was talking about my mental health and my depression and how I felt, and it seems like such a simple statement, but I needed to hear it in that moment. And it was like, yeah, if I want to get better for, and at the time, it wasn’t even for my own sake, it was for my children’s sake. So if I want to get better for the sake of my children, I cannot be with this man. That’s the bottom line. That’s when I filed for divorce and felt really confident about that decision.

What Would J.R. Say to Her Younger Self?Anne (21:42): So JR and I are actually going to talk more about the divorce part and then what happened after and what she’s been dealing with since at a later time. But to conclude now, J.R., if you could go back in time and talk to your younger self, what would you tell her?

J.R. (22:03): I would tell myself that you are so smart. You are so worthy, you deserve better. And I would tell her, trust your instincts. Just trust yourself. That’s the biggest piece I’m still fighting with. Honestly. Just trust yourself.

Re-Establishing Trust With Self After Leaving Your Emotionally Abusive HusbandAnne (22:28): It’s hard to reestablish that after I would say his and society sometimes, or a misogynistic church. They’re systematic, intentional dismantling of that, trying to dismantle it for you so that you wouldn’t trust yourself. Being up against that is really hard.

And that’s why I have people like you J.R., on the podcast to talk about it because it is, I think, so much more systematic than people realize. There’s so many places that try and talk us out of it, and if you follow it, they call you crazy or she’s too much or she’s not enough, or all the things that really, they want to trap us.

And so being able to see that for what it is is so difficult. So thank you so much for sharing your story so far. I can’t wait to hear the rest of it. Listeners, stay tuned because it won’t actually be for a couple of months. Sometimes we do it like the next episode, but in this case, we’re going to wait a couple months and then revisit. So thank you so much for sharing this part of your story, and I cannot wait to hear the rest later. Thank you.

J.R. (23:41): Thanks, Anne.

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J.R. spent nearly a decade “working on herself”, trying to be a better wife to improve her marriage. She didn’t know she needed to learn about emotional and psychological abuse to realize that she wasn’t the problem. If you’re husband says your the problem, there may be something else going on.

This episode is Part One of Anne’s interview with J.R.*Part One: My Husband Says I’m the Problem. Is He Right? (this episode)
Part Two: Should I Divorce My Husband for Emotional Abuse? Can I?***

Could I Be The Problem in Our Marriage?Many victims may blame themselves for the emotional and psychological abuse because that’s what the abuser wants them to think. Convincing her that she’s the problem is part of the psychological abuse.

You’re Not The Problem (His Emotional Abuse is the Problem)You are experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and/or sexual coercion if your partner:

• Uses gaslighting to contort your perception of reality
• Commits sexual betrayal, including secret pornography use
• Establishes a pattern of manipulation and table-turning
• Blames you for their choices
• Creates an environment where “walking on eggshells” is required for emotional survival

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKes84VS8GEJ.R. talks about how she experienced both relief and dread when she realized she wasn’t the problem. If this resonates with you, we’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Support Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:01): Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne.

Today we have a member of our community. We’re going to call her J.R. She is a 29-year-old mother of four. She spent almost a decade of her life in a psychologically abusive relationship. Welcome, J.R.

J.R. (01:41): Thank you, Anne. I’m so happy to have this opportunity.

Anne (01:45): You said that you attribute the beginning of the end of your abusive relationship to BTR. Do you want to start kind of there and then we’ll start at the beginning.

When J.R. Discovered The BTR.ORG Podcast, She Still Thought She Was The ProblemJ.R. (01:57): In 2020, I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. To be honest with you, I was trying to rack my brain to figure out how I found the podcast, and I really can’t remember. I feel like it’s a God thing for me. I was going through some things with my ex-husband. I’d known about his pornography use throughout our relationship. We had been through a lot at that point regarding his addiction, but I never would’ve used the term abuse. I would not have been able to classify it as emotional abuse because I didn’t have the terminology.

I just remember actually at that time, we were living in Washington state and I was driving through this gorgeous Oregon countryside mountains, just really beautiful landscape on my way home from dropping a friend off at the airport, and I was listening to just episode after episode of the BTR podcast, and I just remember this feeling of, well, to be honest, it was dread.

Identifying Gaslighting & Emotional Abuse(03:19): It was like, oh my gosh, this is me. And it was the first time I was hearing anyone really describe what I was going through. I think in the past I had seen myself as the villain because what I didn’t know at the time was my trauma response was very explosive, very intense.

So I always felt like the villain in certain situations with my ex. But hearing some of the women talk on the BTR podcast and just hearing you, Anne, talk about safety and gaslighting and emotional abuse, it was becoming clear to me that that was my situation.

Simultaneous Relief & Dread When You Realize You’re Not The ProblemAnne (04:04): Well, I’m so glad that listening to the podcast helped you. I’m guessing simultaneously relieved that someone could describe what you were going through and then also, wait a minute, it’s this bad. Can you talk about that?

J.R. (04:21): I had moved across the country with this man and our two children, pregnant with our third child. I had just dropped off the last of, we had some visitors all right in a row because I had just given birth to my third child.

We had some visitors. I had just dropped off the last of the visitors and I was driving back to my home with this man. So yes, there was the relief in like, oh my goodness, I’m not alone. And I finally feel understood. I finally feel seen.

But the dread was I am driving back to this place and I don’t know what I’m going to do. My children were there. I had no idea what I was going to do. So there was a sense of dread, and I’m driving right back into this situation.

When Physical Battering Isn’t Present, So You Figure You’re The ProblemI hear a lot of the women on the podcast talk about their husband’s anger and whether it’s verbal assault or even physical.

(05:22): But with my ex, I didn’t really see a lot of those signs. I didn’t see anger. I didn’t see any sort of violence or undertones of being agitated. It was so covert because he just immediately from the beginning of the relationship began gaslighting me and creating this alternate reality for me.

I just believed him right away. And I feel like maybe he didn’t need to go to another tactic as far as being more aggressive, or maybe that’s just not his flavor of abuse. I’m not really sure why, but I didn’t see him as an angry person. I just thought I was the problem.

“I knew he was lying to me, but I could never prove it.” We would get into these fights, but he wasn’t actually fighting back. It was just kind of me basically fighting with a wall because I knew that there was something going on between us. I knew he was lying to me, but I could never prove it.

And so he just kind of capitalized on that and made me believe I was crazy. And so actually from the very beginning of our relationship, I started seeking therapy and have gone to multiple therapists on and off over the past decade or so, most of that being me, looking for what’s wrong with me, how do I change me to make this work?

“He took my honesty, and used it to his advantage.” Anne (07:07): In terms of how you were viewing it at the time, you would define his behavior as problem solving. He seemed like he was engaging and that he was talking to me and that he was reasonable and that I just had some serious problems that I needed to work through. He had manipulated you to the point of that, is that what I’m hearing?

J.R. (07:29): Yes. I think that’s really accurate. And actually even where you say manipulating, that stirred something in me to remember when we first started dating, I have a very keen self-awareness, and I told him flat out, I’ve struggled with jealousy in the past and it is something that I am really trying to work on and grow in and move through, but I just want to be upfront with that.

That is a struggle of mine. And so I think right there, he took my honesty and used that to his advantage.

Abusers Weaponize Your Vulnerability To Make You Believe You’re the ProblemAnne (08:07): So in that way, he weaponized your vulnerability against you, but you were not aware of this at the time?

J.R. (08:15): Right. I had no clue honestly, for so much of our relationship, because of a lot of my spiritual background and upbringing. I saw him as this tool in my life that God was using to bring about sanctification in me. So I just really was like, okay, this person is a mirror pointing out the things in me that need to change, the ways I need to grow. And I was thankful for that.

Identifying Spiritual Abuse Anne (08:45): Spiritual abuse. Was he using spiritual abuse or was he quoting scripture or saying God wants you to change or anything like that? Or was that just how you were sort of interpreting in the moment?

J.R. (08:56): I think it was mostly coming from my own values and convictions. What they taught me. I don’t know that he was really explicit about it, but I think he definitely capitalized on that. And he was a church leader. He was on staff at our church.

And so really the spiritual abuse, I think it did come from him, but it sort of, I would say trickled down from our pastor who he was on staff with. It felt like the perfect cocktail that just worked in his favor against me to keep me right where he wanted me.

J.R.’s Thoughts on Therapy Anne (09:43): So because you spent so many years in therapy thinking that it was you that had the problem, rather than realizing what was going on, what are your thoughts about all that time that you spent in therapy?

J.R. (09:56): I don’t regret it. I think I’ve been able to do a lot of personal work on myself that has really made me a better mother, a better friend, just a better person in general. So I don’t regret it.

But I met my ex in 2011 and 2012 is when I started in therapy and when I started I would’ve said I would not talk to any therapist who wasn’t Christian based and had this a religious specifically Christian background. And that was something that was very important to me.

And now when I look for a coach or a therapist or counselor or someone even that I’m just going to go to confide in or to get advice from, I’m very wary of Christians. Which is really sad because I still have a very firm faith in my spiritual walk and my spiritual journey is very important to me. And so I lost a lot of trust in the church community and in Christians who are in positions of influence because I saw so many that could have helped me.

And I felt like in a lot of ways there were key players throughout my story that not only didn’t help me get to safety, but actually very firmly rooted me deeper into the abusive relationship I was in.

When Clergy & Therapists Enable Emotional Abuse (13:08): Therapists only know what you tell them, right? And so if you go in and you’re talking about your jealousy, for example, or things that you’ve sort of integrated into you, maybe things that aren’t even true that you’ve integrated that the abuser has told you they’re only going to go with you there, they’re not going to say,

Hey, wait, stop, who told you that? Why are you thinking this? Is it true? They’re just going to go where you go.

And so an abuse victim can end up not ever identifying the abuse even after going to therapy. And then similarly with the church, they don’t identify the abuse. In fact, they add this layer of spiritual abuse sometimes of have you prayed hard enough or do you have enough faith or have you submitted, were you in the type of Christian Church that wanted you to submit to your husband? Was that a thing with your faith?

Submission to Your Husband – Does that Make Him Right J.R. (14:02): Growing up? Not so much. But when I first got married to my ex, so we dated for about four years, and then we got married right before he graduated from college, and he graduated from a very reformed evangelical Christian college, and he got sort of inundated with this certain type of theology and doctrines and that he sort of fed all of that to me. And I was just so excited and passionate about Jesus that I wanted to do what I felt like I wanted to find.

Well, what is God’s will and if that’s God’s will, then I’m going to do it. And that kind of led me as an adult. I kind of flipped 180 from what I grew up being taught.

So I grew up around very strong women, women who were very, very opinionated, very loud, and then I kind of flipped over to, oh, the only good type of Christian woman is a submissive one. I need a quiet spirit, I need to be shy. Maybe not shy, but timid. I need to be meek. All of these things.

And I really struggled with that because it didn’t resonate with who I felt like I was, who I felt like God made me to be, but I just latched on and believed that that was my role in life and that I just wasn’t very good at it.

“You’re so good at being you. We’re so good at being ourselves.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Anne (15:46): That breaks my heart because you’re so good at being you. We’re so good at being ourselves, and that’s who God made us to be. I think. So it breaks my heart when women are trying to contort themselves in this misogynistic view of who they are, that because they’re being spiritually abused, they want to do God’s will because they love God. What gets lost in that is God loves us, God loves you, and he created you for you not to be subservient to someone else.

And it really gets lost when that spiritual abuse comes into play. So you’ve talked about how you went to therapy. You’ve talked about how you really were manipulated to altering the way that you viewed yourself and religion to try to survive this situation thinking because he told you this, that it would make things better.

The Moment You Realize You’re NOT The ProblemJ.R. (16:52): I guess I would say it wasn’t until 2020 that I finally realized it didn’t matter what I did. It wasn’t going to change. It wasn’t going to quote unquote work because he was the problem and I was believing for so long that I was the problem. So really, I spent so many years and adding child after child into this mess of just banging my head against the wall.

And I remember when I was a stay-at-home mom for the beginning of my children’s lives, and I remember just saying things to him, it’s hard to do all of the things in a day that you want to get done in the house, make the meal, keep the house clean, do this and that with the kids and all this stuff.

And so I said, I can’t do it all, but what is one thing that would mean a lot to you that when you come home from work, it’s like, oh, I’m so thankful that this thing is done.

The Belief That “Divorce is Not an Option” (18:05): And I would ask him things like that because I wanted it to work, and I was convinced that I was the problem. I think I knew it wasn’t working, but it was so ingrained in me that divorce is wrong. Divorce is not an option. That I was like, well, it’s got to work. So if it’s not working, I’m not doing the right thing or I’m not trying hard enough because if I put it on him, then I can’t control it anymore.

Then I feel hopeless. Well, if it’s up to him and he’s not willing to change, then I’m just stuck in this horrible marriage forever. It made more sense to me to just take it upon myself because at least then I had some sense of control.

When You Realize That ABUSE Is The Problem, Not YouAnne (18:55): I think a lot of women feel like that because for me, realizing I was a victim and saying I am a victim of abuse was simultaneously liberating. I can’t do anything about it.

And then also horrifying. I can’t do anything about it at the same time, and it is horrifying to realize that this situation, there’s nothing that you could do to improve him.

You can improve your own life and your own situation once you know that you’re a victim of abuse, but you cannot improve your quote marriage or the situation with your family, and that’s devastating to realize because then what do you do?

That’s the next step. During this time, did you ever discover porn use? Infidelity? Can you talk about that for a little bit?

Is His Pornography Use the Problem? J.R. (19:50): At some point in 2012, I found pornography on his phone, and I can remember it so clearly. I was sitting in his car and he had run back into the house that he was living at at the time to grab something. He came back out to the car and I just was sitting there staring and showed it to him. Just didn’t even say anything.

I just showed it to him and he just sitting there just looked me in the eyes and denied it, and it took me aback. Looking back now, it’s like, now I’m not going to lie, Anne.

It’s really hard not to be very hard on myself and almost mad at myself because right then and there, I knew what was in front of my face. I saw it with my own eyes, and this man is sitting there just lying through his teeth about something that it’s like, why would you even lie about that?

(20:55): I have it right in front of me. He kind of pushed back for a little bit, but eventually I’m just like, well, I don’t really care what you say. I’m seeing it in front of my face, so I don’t know why you’re trying to pretend this isn’t what it is.

So that was the first time, but I didn’t have the knowledge, the understanding of what this really was and how it really worked to think anything more than, obviously I was crushed. I was devastated, but I just thought, okay, I guess this is just maybe a part of me thought this was just going to be everybody.

The Discrepancy of Abusive Men and Their Public Personas Anne (21:33): Did you find that finding porn, but then his behavior at church and the persona that he portrayed at church, what did you think about that discrepancy?

J.R. (21:46): So at the time, he wasn’t in any kind of church leadership. He was still in college. He went to a Bible college. It was almost trendy. It’s for the guys to talk about accountability and –

Anne (22:06): his “struggle” with porn?

J.R. (22:08): – if I hear the word –

Anne (22:10): “struggle”

J.R. (22:11): YES!! ARG!!!

Pretending It’s Not A Problem to SurviveJ.R. (22:13): Yes, I didn’t like it, but I just was like, well, this, that’s what it is. It’s a struggle and he’s trying and you don’t know what you don’t know. I found that. And throughout our dating relationship and then our engagement, I would say it would go months at a time where I wouldn’t find anything.

He wouldn’t say anything, but then it would always be me discovering something on his phone.

So that would happen. And whenever that would happen, I would get all upset and we’d have this big blowout and I would just decide, well, he’s not going to be honest with me about this, so I need to let it go and stop thinking about it because I’m going to drive myself crazy.

Because I didn’t see getting out of the relationship as an option. I didn’t know about setting boundaries. I didn’t know how to reach out for help. So I just thought, well, I guess I just have to pretend things are fine in order to just survive.

Having to “just survive?” That’s The Problem.Anne (23:29): Well, and that’s why some people call abuse victims survivors is because you’re surviving and everything that you do in this scenario is to survive. And so that’s where the term surviving comes from. I’ve always not liked that term. It feels like you survived something that you didn’t. You’re still in the middle of, right. I’m like, I haven’t survived anything yet. I’m still on the boat and the boat is still sinking. I don’t feel like I’ve survived. But that is why some people use that. I like the term victim. It’s just pretty straightforward. But other people don’t like that because they feel like it’s maybe unempowering, but I feel like it’s very empowering.

Once you realize no one’s coming to save me. We’ve got to get myself to safety because this is not going to turn out well unless I start making my way to safety. J.R. and I are going to pause the conversation here, but stay tuned. We will continue it next week.

View Details

The global severity of human trafficking and sexual exploitation is clear. Melea Stephens is on The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to explain what you can do to stop human trafficking and sexual exploitation.

Here at BTR.ORG, we deeply appreciate the National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE) and the important work they do. Learn more about NCOSE here.

Help Stop Human Trafficking & Sexual Exploitation TodayYou can join the fight today. Start by:

• Subscribing to NCOSE emails
• Subscribing to NCOSE Updates & Actions alerts
• Reading and sharing the 2023 NCOSE Dirty Dozen List
• “Lending Your Voice”

BTR.ORG Stands with NCOSE in Fighting Against Human Trafficking & Sexual ExploitationAt BTR, we know how deeply personal and painful the realities of the sex trafficking industry can be. When a spouse secretly uses pornography, solicits a sexually exploited person, or sexually assaults or coerces a partner, the results are devastating.

We are here for you. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:01):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

I have Melea Stephens on today’s episode. She is on the National Center for Sexual Exploitation, also known as NCOSE board. They do amazing work on sex trafficking. So if you’re really interested in being involved, NCOSE is the place to get real information about how to help with that. Melea got involved with NCOSE because for over 23 years she has been a practicing therapist and she has seen young children be addicted to pornography. She wanted to help make sure that we protect kids.

Melea lives in Alabama, so she’s currently working on passing a bill in her state. We’ll also talk about how you can get involved in helping out in the location where you are. So stay tuned for that. Can you tell us about what’s going on in Alabama right now?

What is a “Filter Bill” and Can it Stop Human Trafficking?Melea Stephens (02:16):
Thank you for having me. Last legislative session here in Alabama, we worked to pass what we essentially would call a filter bill. It’s a bill that would require tablets and smartphones to have the filters defaulted on. One of the names that it’s had was the default to safety bill. We’ve had different names at different points. Utah passed a similar bill a few years ago. We have wanted to pass it in Alabama and several other states are interested in introducing it as well.

One reason we wanted to promote this bill is that we know 47% of young children have their first unwanted early exposure to pornography on smartphones and tablets, and it’s just a common sense protection to have preexisting filters that are already on smartphones and tablets defaulted on versus putting the burden on caregivers and parents to try to go through 30 some odd steps on many devices to try to figure out how to activate existing content filters.

Helping Trafficking Victims is Something We Can All Do (03:17):
We have Supreme Court precedent that says that it is preferable for protections to come at the filter level on devices. So we know the courts would uphold this bill. We’re pretty confident that it would be very enforceable. All it is simply doing is asking that three major companies, which would be Amazon with the Kindle, the Apple products, and Google with their products that have smartphones and tablets that a software update would happen, which is a very simple fix.

We’ve talked to software experts who work closely with device manufacturers and they say this would happen in a matter of hours. That they would just do a very simple update that would allow for phones that are activated in Alabama to have the default on instead of off with the content filter so that parents or caregivers don’t have that responsibility of trying to figure that out.

Broad-based Protections for Young Children(04:16):
And it automatically has broad-based protections for young children so that they’re less likely to stumble across pornography at an early age. And people would say, well, you can get around that. Kids are going to find ways to get around it. Obviously kids can begin to try to figure this out, but when we’re talking about very young children who aren’t even thinking about pornography that stumble upon this content and it is very traumatic to them to not understand what they’re looking at and the way it affects their brain and then how it affects their behavior and their development. This gives them extra years of innocence and safety and protection.

“Anytime a child is exposed to pornography, that’s sexual abuse of that child.”Anne Blythe – BTR.ORG

And I had the honor of speaking to different parent groups. I have spoken to schools and churches that are in some of the areas where kids really don’t have involved parents. Those children, child on child harmful sexual behavior is just rampant in those communities because children are just handed devices. No one’s looking out for them. Very early on they can become addicted to pornography. They act out what they see because that’s what children do.

Fight Human Trafficking to Stop the Cycle of Abuse & Trauma(05:23):
They copy what they see, and then there’s a cycle of abuse happening and a cycle of trauma. So I especially think about those children. When I think about this bill, we’ve been excited. There was a great response last session. We had 67 bipartisan co-sponsors in the house, and it passed through committee with bipartisan support. We got to the Senate, it passed through committee with bipartisan support. It was poised to be passed through the Senate and become a law for the governor simply to sign.

But we had one person in the Senate who refused to allow it on the calendar because it really only takes one or two people that set the calendar and they blocked it because there was a lot of opposition that we had to fight along the way. And that’s been true in every other state. There’s been opposition from big tech and telecommunications companies have shown up at all of our hearings with their lobbyists as well.

Why Does Big Tech Fight Against Protecting Children? (06:25):
Even though our bill has zero to do with companies like AT&T or Verizon, they’re not held liable and it’s explicitly stated in our bill, but they would show up because unfortunately, big tech and telecommunications companies and the pornography industry will sometimes band together to fight common sense protections for kids. It’s really sad, but that’s one of the things we dealt with and unfortunately this gentleman that blocked it, we assume that there was pressure from lobbyists and one company in particular. So we’re going to do it again this session, and I’m grateful.

I don’t feel discouraged. I’m very encouraged because the draft version we have this session is even better. I think has even more protections built in, and we have major support across the state. So I’m excited about getting the ball rolling again this session.

Money, Power, & a Resistance to Any Form of Regulation Anne (07:19):
What’s the real reason they don’t want to do it? Because they’ll say all kinds of reasons that aren’t really real. What do you think their legit reason is? Is it just simply money?

Melea Stephens (07:28):
Money is a big factor. We know that historically, if you look it up, Google, AT&T, or Verizon, do they get back channel profits from pornography? They do and they have. There would be potentially a loss of revenue that way. But then you have big tech. Big tech hates regulations. They do not want to be restricted in any way, shape or form.

They don’t want to give up an inch of their authority to determine what they do when they do it. So I think money, power and a resistance to any form of regulation, which this really is to me, it’s like a safety feature on a car or something requiring that they have proper antilock brakes on a car, something that’s very reasonable. And in this case, it’s just a simple software update. All the technology is there.

Can the Government Stop Unwanted Pornography Exposure? Anne (08:19):
I hope this does not sound too political, but I’m a patriot in saying I’m really grateful for all of the government services that we have. We have roads, we have a military, we have things in place to keep us safe, and that’s only something that the government can do because the government is all of us.

So I am so grateful that we have these opportunities that we can pass things to protect us because no company is going to do that for us. We need to do that through the government because nobody’s going to willingly do that. Although some companies have willingly done some of the things right. I’ve seen NCOSE has worked well with some companies, so that has been exciting.

A “Very Tooth and Nail Fight” to Help VictimsMelea Stephens (09:06):
Absolutely. Yeah. There’s opportunity. Companies respond to positive communication and sometimes negative pressure. We have what’s called the Dirty Dozen list where we name and shame the main promoters of sexual exploitation. We have had tremendous success because once things are brought to light, it’s been refreshing that several companies have changed their corporate policies to better protect citizens, to protect them from sex trafficking or from unwanted exposure to pornography.

This has been a very tooth and nail fight all along the way, the opposition will say, well, you should just be fighting the pornography instead of asking the manufacturers to do this at the device level, which I agree. And we are. The National Center on Sexual Exploitation along with many of our allies are constantly fighting the pornography industry to make changes there. But here’s the truth about that is it goes back to our government. I wish our government was stepping up in this issue because the laws on the books on a federal level would prohibit the production and distribution of hardcore pornography, which is the majority of pornography that’s on the internet.

The Truth about Federal Obscenity Laws(10:23):
And it also, our laws prohibit the distribution of all pornography, be it softcore or hardcore from being on our internet. But our Department of Justice for many years now has not been enforcing federal obscenity laws. So that leaves us having to take this gulliver approach to tackling this issue of illegal pornography through corporate strategies, through legislation, through lawsuits. We have lawsuits against PornHub that we’re winning right now. We’re gutting the mind geek and the PornHub industry because of lawsuits that we have with survivors.

So we’re having to go at every different angle, but this is one of the most practical, simplistic things we can do to protect children. And as I’ve talked to families across the state of Alabama, they really, really want to see this passed, and they’re very upset that it was blocked last session. Whether they’re democrat, republican, it doesn’t matter. I think the main part of this is that there’s opposition from big tech, the pornography industry and telecommunications companies, and to everyday citizens that want to make a difference and make an impact when it comes to fighting sex trafficking and sexual exploitation in general.

Going Upstream to Fight Human Trafficking & Sexual Exploitation(11:38):
Yes, at NCOSE, we understand that you’ve got to go upstream. I don’t know if you’ve heard the metaphor or the analogy of you’re seeing people floating down the river that are drowning and you rush in to try to pull out as many as you can, and you’re struggling to get as many to safety as you can, and you do this for a long time until you’re exhausted, but you’re not able to get to everyone.

And so eventually you come to this idea of like, I’ve got to go upstream and figure out who’s throwing people in the river. And so you go upstream and you find out there’s someone that’s shoving all these people into the river, and in this case, that’s the pornography industry because today’s mainstream pornography, as you know, is highly addictive and changes the way that they operate. It changes their belief system.

Fighting Human Trafficking at the Root Level(12:25):
It gives them permission, giving beliefs about rape and sex buying and things of that nature. People become objects. So we’re raising up a generation of kids to have a different type of sexual appetite, and it’s creating a world of harm.

So we fight things at that root level, and we know that if we don’t address that issue in addition to sex trafficking, we’ll be just putting out flames forever. If we did not have rampant hardcore pornography, if it was restricted to just the adult bookstores like you had back in the eighties with soft core porn, as bad as that was, if we just lived back in that world, that’s what the laws on the books say our world should look like when it comes to pornography in the United States.

Striving for “A Shift in Cultural Expectations” There should be nothing on the internet, nothing on cable, satellite tv, all that stuff. And if we just live like that and our children were able to flourish freely without feeling like they’re going to be exposed to pornography around every corner, can you imagine how different our world would be if they were able to go through their developmental years without that atmosphere?

So that’s what we strive for is a shift in cultural expectations. But then there are also very practical things we’re doing to interrupt the cycles of things that are feeding sex trafficking. So we’d love for them to come and look at our website.

The Truth About Sexual Exploitation & Human TraffickingAnne (14:07):
I really recommend NCOSE because so many people are talking about sex trafficking these days. And I have a really interesting story that is super alarming. So one of my friends was on an airplane and she was sitting next to a man and they started talking about politics a little bit and he said, I’m voting for this person because of his record on sex trafficking because he is going to protect the children.

And her ears perked up. And she was like, oh, really? Tell me more about this. And he said, yeah, there’s just these people who are stealing these kids and we’ve got to stop it. Then she said, well, what do you do for a living? And guess what he did for a living? What? He owned a strip club.

Melea Stephens (14:52):
Oh my gosh. You’re kidding. No.

Use NCOSE Resources to Work Toward Ending Sexual Exploitation & Human TraffickingAnne (14:55):
Everyone wants to end sex trafficking. Everyone wants to end pornography. I mean, everyone that listens to this podcast. Sure.

Melea Stephens (15:04):
Yeah.

Anne (15:05):
So here’s a man who is an actual literal sex trafficker. He owns a strip club, and he’s talking about this nameless, faceless group of people who’s kidnapping kids when we know who they are, it’s PornHub. We know who the pornographers are. It’s very obvious. Getting involved with NCOSE is so awesome because it makes it very clear what’s happening so that you can say, okay, this particular senator, they’re the ones blocking this bill so we can write to that particular senator and we can make sure that this bill gets passed.

So I love that NCOSE clears out all the confusion because at least this man who owned the strip club, he was loving saying, oh yeah, we got to stop sex trafficking as a way to distract from the fact that he was a sex trafficker.

Finding a Anti-Trafficking Organization You Can Trust Melea Stephens (15:55):
Talk about denial and hypocrisy or else just a really good marketing scheme there.

Anne (16:01):
That is scary these days. So I love that. NCOSE is a very reputable organization that has been around a long time.

Melea Stephens (16:08):
They really do their research, and they are very careful about the details before they speak out. That’s one reason I’m always hesitant when I’m a spokeswoman. I want to make sure I do my best to present the facts accurately because they have such a high standard when it comes to what they share and what they do. They’re very intent, and I respect that about them, and they will correct themselves if there is something that they find out is inaccurate, but they do things with a lot of integrity and they get a lot done with a very small budget in a small group of people.

Join the NCOSE community to Feel the Momentum & Fight Human TraffickingAnne (16:43):
Well, that’s the other thing that I love about NCOSE, because so many people when they talk to me about it, they’ll be like, nobody’s doing anything right? And I’m like, well, every year NCOSE with their dirty dozen list, they make progress. It’s so amazing to be a part of that because you can feel the momentum.

And as much as pornography is this overarching exploitative, abusive, systemic problem that is affecting every single woman that listens to this podcast and so many families all over the world, and it’s horrific, it needs to be stopped. It’s an abuse issue, and there are people who do not want to stop it, and they want people to get distracted.

I also think that the pornographers and the exploiters, I think they don’t want people to know that progress is being made. I think they want people to think that it’s a lost cause. So either it’s fine and what’s your problem? We should just let this go. Or the alternative, which is there’s nothing you can do.

What the Human Trafficking Industry Doesn’t Want YOU to KnowMelea Stephens (19:14):
They want it to seem that it’s a right and it’s an entitlement first and foremost. They don’t want people to know that it’s illegal. Pornography is illegal. They want people to feel that this is a free speech issue when it’s not protected speech, but you would think that’s the case given everything that they do. And they have all these organizations that are under misleading names, such as this Free Speech Coalition, various names that make it sound like they’re anti exploitation as well.

They have some groups that sound like, but they’re actually the pornography industry putting up a false front to try to get in and sound like they’re being benevolent and they’re actually doing everything they can to undermine decency in society.

So you have to really do your homework and dig deep when it comes to these issues, just like in our state and in other states that this filter bill was being presented, several groups came in acting like they were pro-family pro children presenting Trojan horse bills that sounded anti pornography and people fell for it. It’s a very sneaky opponent. Thankfully, the law is on our side, science is on our side, and as we educate the public about the harms of pornography to the brain and relationships in society, as we educate the public about what the law actually says, they’re empowered to push back against this evil industry.

NCOSE is the Place to Get YOUR Information About Human Trafficking Anne (20:49):
So look over here so that you don’t actually accidentally support a sex trafficker or a pornographer. NCOSE is the place to get your information from. They’re trustworthy. They’ve been around for so long, and they really do their homework, and they know who the specific people are. They talk about specific things that are happening that we know about that are actionable, and that’s what makes us so effective.

Melea Stephens (21:32):
Well, thank you so much. Enjoyed my time with you.

View Details

Learning how to set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship may feel confusing and overwhelming. But here at BTR.ORG, we know that with the proper tools – including support and self-compassion – you can master boundary-setting and begin your journey to emotional safety and healing.

Elizabeth, a member of the BTR.ORG community, is back on the podcast, sharing the second part of her story. As she learns and grows, so do her safety boundaries. Tune in and read the full transcript below for more.

This episode is Part 2 of Anne’s interview with Elizabeth.Part 1: Is The Cycle of Abuse a Myth?
Part 2: How to Set Boundaries in An Emotionally Abusive Relationship (this episode)

Boundaries in an Emotionally Abusive Relationship Should Establish Greater SafetyHave you ever tried to set boundaries expecting more safety and security, only to feel more exposed to harm than ever? That’s because traditional boundary-setting models simply don’t work in abuse scenarios. Strategies like:

• If/Then Statements (“If you yell at me, I will move sleep in another bedroom);
• Statements of Values (“I want a healthy partner who treats me kindly and non-abusively); and
• Ultimatums (“If you don’t stop gaslighting me, cheating on me, and lying to me, then I’m filing for divorce”);

Have been touted by relationship “professionals” as solutions to emotional abuse, when in reality, they usually keep victims exposed to harmful situations.

The BTR.ORG Boundaries Model Actually Works in Emotionally Abusive RelationshipsWe created the BTR.ORG Boundaries Model because we want victims to actually experience greater emotional and psychological safety.

Effective Boundaries in an Emotionally Abusive Relationship are:* Courageous actions that evolve to fit the needs of the victim * Often unspoken * Essential to emotional and psychological safety.

Boundaries are NOT:* If-then statements given to the abuser verbally or in writing * A statement of ones values, or of what a person hopes for or needs * An expected behavior with an attached consequence or threat.

https://youtu.be/9aa5bgEY3bYHow Do I Learn to Set Boundaries in My Emotionally Abusive Relationship? Establishing effective safety boundaries is new territory for many women who find BTR.

If you’re wondering how to begin this process, ask yourself these questions:

• What actions can I take today to begin creating more emotional & psychological safety for myself?
• How will I learn effective strategies to keep expanding my emotional & psychological safety? (The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop teaches you, step-by-step, exactly how to establish and maintain effective boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship)
• Where will I seek support as I begin the process of establishing safety boundaries? (We recommend BTR.ORG Group Sessions)

Full Transcript:Anne (00:01):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

Elizabeth, a member of our community is back on today. We’re going to continue the conversation that we had last week. We were talking about how she was going to move back to Canada, so if you haven’t listened to last week’s episode, listen to that first and then join us here. We’re just going to jump right in.

Canada’s laws are much more effective when it comes to domestic abuse. Did you end up moving to Canada?

Elizabeth (01:56):
I did.

Anne (01:57):
Okay. And was that before or after your divorce?

Setting Boundaries Requires StrategyElizabeth (02:00):
After. I didn’t have a green card. I was just authorized to work in the United States, and he had thought I would continue to pursue my green card and he could help me so that I could remain in the United States. So I didn’t tell him that I had changed my plan and that I changed the plan to, I’m actually going to move back to Canada where I’m a citizen.

So for a couple months he believed that he still had a certain amount of control over me after we were separated, and then I pursued to do everything legally and upfront. When he found that information out, he was obviously very upset, but it protects me. I’m not a citizen there and I don’t have any support.

“This guy sounds like a coercive controller”Anne (02:40):
And at that time, in that instance, protected you from prolonged legal abuse in terms of the divorce, but maybe not in terms of custody. I have a feeling that you’re going to bring up custody because this guy sounds like a coercive controller. This type of abuser really enjoys chaos and pain, and they will even hurt themselves because it’s so fun for them to see someone else in chaos and pain. And so it’s very strange.

They do things that seem really stupid because it’s hurting them, but it’s also hurting you, and it also seems very smart. And women in this situation are usually like, how can you be so smart and so stupid at the exact same time?

Elizabeth (03:31):
It is a question that’s crossed my mind.

Anne (03:33):
So let’s talk about the post divorce abuse. What happened after?

The Bank Record Subpoena ProcessElizabeth (03:39):
They asked, do we want to subpoena his bank records? And we had never shared banking. I’d never looked at any of that. They said it’s just something we typically do during divorce. So I was like, okay, sure. And his bank records showed when we first separated the first couple months after, he was at a college bar every second night.

So he was right back into the kind of behaviors that he’d been used to. I just said that because when we first were moving away, I think he was busy with his own thing, so he wasn’t as intent and wasn’t as involved. But then maybe something changed in his life. And when we were, in fact, across the border, he started to really just harass me a lot through the parenting app. And we had created this parenting plan when we lived in the us and when the borders finally opened and we moved to the area we moved to, we had no real concept of the impact it would be on my daughter, who was two at the time, barely two.

That Moment You Realize You Need To Set Boundaries(04:36):
But it was a rigorous, rigorous schedule for her. And I worked full-time. She was in daycare, and two nights a week she’d have to be away from home for 12 hours. We’d have to meet him at this neutral location. It’s dark, it’s raining, the roads are bad. He had no intent.

As much feedback as I gave him that this was so hard on her and can we please possibly figure out a different way for him to get that one and a half hour visit by extending his weekend visits or something? He just wouldn’t budge and he could see the difficulty for her in terms of her sleep schedule.

Anne (05:14):
And for you. Because it was hard for you too. And he’s thinking, awesome, awesome. It’s hard for her and it’s hard for the baby.

When You Set Boundaries With An Emotional Abuser, You May Find They’re “All Talk, No Action”Elizabeth (05:23):
Exactly. I’m sure he knew and he didn’t care if it was hard on me, then she was just kind of a byproduct of that or whatever. So that went on for about six months, and then I just said, enough, you can take me to court, but I’m decreasing this to one night a week on her weeknights, and this is where I find him to be kind of a lot of talk, but then no action.

I think if you get down to the truth of everything of what he actually wants, it’s not that extra one and a half hours. It was more that, like you said, it was kind of impacting our lives and we had no free time. We’re exhausted all the time. We’re bending to his will. And so that’s been the main thing, still kind of a lot of crazy making in that he’ll say, you never give me any time, dah, dah, dah.

Setting Boundaries is Empowering!(06:11):
But then there’s evidence of all through the parenting app. And the parenting app has been so great because it’s all there. It’s all documented and you’re not having to fish through to find, and it’s very validating to look back and go, oh, this is all the times I offered, or these are all the things. So it contradicts itself. And now here we are three years since we moved, and I can just say you’re contradicting yourself. Well, now I don’t even really say that much. He knows.

But at first I was overexplaining and deflecting, and now I don’t do any of that. He doesn’t really try to make up any extra time with her so that it’s kind of playing itself out. And the less I engage, the less of a rise he gets from me. The more I have cut down any interaction on the app to the bare minimum, he kind of shrinks away. That being said, now he won’t let me talk to my daughter when she goes away on the weekends. So that’s a way to kind of unquote make me pay.

The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop Teaches YOU How to Set Boundaries in an Emotionally Abusive RelationshipAnne (07:11):
So the strategy that you used, that’s one of the concepts that we teach in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. It’s how to think about the abuser so that you are in a state of mind to be able to respond to them in a way that protects you, how to communicate with them, and then how to set boundaries the way that is effective, where they can’t actually cross them because it’s all you. And these types of boundaries that we teach in the workshop, they’re never anything that you say.

Elizabeth (07:44):
I love that.

What Will The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop Teach You About Setting Boundaries?Anne (07:45):
Because women who take the workshop will learn this with an abuser if you tell them, Hey, I don’t like it when you wear green, just for example, they’ll be like, sweet, now I know how to bugger. I’m going to wear green. It’s never a way to solve the problem. You’re always just giving them a sign how to harass me. It bothers me when you do this. They’re like, great, thanks for letting me know. I’ll keep doing it. We never ever want to tell them what our boundaries are or what we need or what we want or anything like that, because that only puts us in more danger.

So The Living Free Workshop talks about that, but one of the things that you said is a really important principle that we teach in The Living Free Workshop, and it is, do not believe them. So many times these abusers will say, well, I’ll take you to court. And you’re terrified, right? You don’t want to lose your rotter. Yes. So you think, well, I better do what he says, or he’s going to take me to court.

When You Set Boundaries, He May Threaten Family Court – Here’s What to Do:Elizabeth (08:39):
And that went on for a couple of years. For me.

Anne (08:42):
The better way to respond is, oh, okay, sounds good. This is my attorney’s phone number. Have your attorney contact him. Just be like, oh, alright. That sounds good. Here’s my attorney’s phone number. Let me know how it goes and leave it at that. Some of them will take you to court, so just know that it’s not always going to end up like that.

But the majority of them, they just want to make you do what they want and they think threats are going to get them that, but they don’t actually want to spend the time and energy to take you to court because in reality, their actions very rarely match their words. And that goes the same for promises. Of course, I love you. I’m not going to look at porn.

And then it goes the same for threats too. Usually if they’ve threatened to harm you physically and in your state, that enables you to get a protective order, get it, because that will always help you. And the criminal route is always better than civil for protection. So if you can get some kind of criminal action, that’s always going to help you more. So that’s good that at this point, more or less, you’ve been delivered because you stopped believing him.

The BTR.ORG Boundary Model Teaches You How to Set Boundaries in an Emotionally Abusive RelationshipElizabeth (09:54):
Exactly. And I just advocate for myself and my daughter, and like I said, I have the documentation to support decisions and all of that, so I’ve just kind of protected myself that way. What you said about the boundaries, I think of that all the time, and I share it with other people because I learned it from the podcast. It’s an actionable, it’s not words because many people think it’s a lot of words to describe your boundary, and I love that. It’s an action, an action you take.

Anne (10:21):
Yeah. That’s the only thing that will actually protect you. And if you tell them your boundary, it’s a big giant flag that says, Hey, this is how to abuse me. So you never, ever, ever want to tell them once they’re an abuser. Of course, in the beginning you’re trying to figure out is this abuse what’s going on?

And instead of asking him or talking to ’em about abuse again with living free, we recommend that you just observe, just watch. You don’t have to ask him, Hey, are you abusive? Or This is abuse. You don’t have to bring it up. You can just observe and you could see that he’s abusive. If you see that he’s abusive, you don’t have to tell him you need to get to safety, but you don’t need to say anything about it.

SAA and COSAElizabeth (11:04):
He’s heavily just projected that towards me. So the parenting app, I had to go through some of the documentation recently, and I think it was over 30 counts of being, he accusing me of being a parental alienator and a narcissist, and I don’t comment. I learned that early on too. I’m not here to diagnose him, but I will comment on his behaviors at times, but I really refrain from that as well. No point to it.

But yeah, he’s very heavily projects on me that I’m mentally unstable and where I was living, like I mentioned there just, it’s in the northern states near the Canadian border, and I just couldn’t find anything in the city I was at for support. And so I mentioned he started SAA, they did have a group, and then I found a COSA group of about four or five women in that area.

How Did Elizabeth Find BTR.ORG?(11:58):
I just didn’t find that I got much from it, and so I just started looking for podcasts and different information, and I stumbled across BTR and where I was being so isolated, it was what was my main support really, and just starting to connect the dots. I did read some books as well, but I would say the podcasts from BTR were the main thing that kept me rooted in reality, where I was like, yes, this is what matches, because like you said, certain parts of COSA, there were certain things that I was like, yeah, sort of.

But then listening to the podcast and the different people you would have on was kind of the main thing that rooted me in reality of what I was experiencing. It was like a big, yes, this fits with what I’m experiencing. That’s kind of what helped me in a lot of my decision making. His counselor even said to him at one point, he said, she’s reading these books. He didn’t know about the podcast. She’s reading these books. And she kind of silenced him and said, she’s becoming empowered. It threatened him that I was learning what I was learning then I was no longer kind of trapped in the chaos.

“This makes sense as to what I already know.”Elizabeth, BTR.ORG Community Member

Anne (13:09):
Was the BTR podcast when you found it, was it kind of revelatory? Was it something totally new that you hadn’t thought of or heard before? Or was it something that you did know inside but you just didn’t know you knew it?

Elizabeth (13:22):
Looking back, I would say the latter for sure. From working in healthcare, I have some knowledge of mental health knowledge from books I’ve read and things like that. And so I think as I started to listen to it, I’m like, yes, this makes sense as to what I already know. I talked about the addiction side of it and attachment. I knew about attachment kind of.

Omar Minwalla’s “Secret Sexual Basement”So it kind of brought everything together at that time. It was like in 2018, and you had the gentleman on who’s written a couple books, he talks about the secret sexual basement. Those episodes were around that time and just starting to kind of put pieces together. It was like I knew that this was ill treatment, but I didn’t think it was as calculated as it was.

Anne(15:57):
I think the thing that is really interesting is that women, when they find the podcast, they’re like, yes, they knew it, but they didn’t have words for it, or they couldn’t really bring it to the surface.

“How did I not know? How did I not understand?” And then I think the other interesting thing is that they’re, how did I not know? How did I not understand? That’s how I felt when I read Why Does He Do That? I was like, how am I a college graduate with a master’s degree who doesn’t want to be abused?

I’m not afraid of divorce, and how can I not realize I’m being abused? This is crazy. So it’s both a, I knew it, and then how did I not know it at the exact same time? And it’s such a strange place to be where at least I felt so stupid that I didn’t see it.

But then also not stupid at all because I’d never been educated about it. And all of the abuse checklists are like, does he control your transportation? And you’re like, no. Does he trap you in a room? No. I mean, maybe he might trap you in a room. I’m not saying that he wouldn’t. I’m just saying the classic abuse checklists didn’t seem to fit my situation. It was just confusing.

Secret-Keeping is Power OverElizabeth (16:40):
The idea of secret keeping, secret is power over. That really resonated with me. I’m like, yeah, because at first I thought he didn’t realize that it was painful for me, or he didn’t realize the depth of his actions, the impact of his actions. But then I kind of circled to the fact that I didn’t really matter to him, is what I kind of came to.

Anne (17:03):
Well, it’s even the opposite. He does it on purpose.
He uses your feelings against you to control you rather than listens or caress about your feelings. So the only reason he pays attention to your feelings is to be able to manipulate you, control the situation, control the narrative, and that’s where women, well-meaning awesome, caring women, they don’t know what they’re dealing with.

And so of course, they’re going to share their feelings with their husband because they think in sharing their feelings, they’ll be able to resolve the issue. But with an abuser, sharing your feelings is literally offering them a list of how to manipulate you better. And so that’s why it’s so important to know what you’re looking at. So Elizabeth, if you could go back and talk to your younger self, what would you tell her?

As You Set Boundaries, “Trust your gut” Elizabeth (18:00):
It’s kind of cliche, but trust your gut. How do you feel around that individual that you’re with? That was a big one for me. I never felt calm or always felt like something wasn’t right. I would teach myself and I teach my daughter. How do you feel when that happened to you? The feeling attached to being around someone or how their behaviors make you feel, and then boundaries, because he was sometimes snide or joking, and I’ve experienced this with other people I’ve dated.

If you put up a boundary that he, in the beginning would be like, oh, yes, you’re right, I should have that boundary. But then I felt like there was undermining surrounding, it kind of diminishing me, invalidating me, and those things I just pushed aside. I was like, oh, when I brought it to him, he did say he would go along with it, but there’s the whole understanding of boundaries and the response to them.

Learning How to Set Boundaries in an Abusive Relationship Can Change Your Life For Good (18:50):
I watch my own daughter give a no if she’s having a video call, no, I don’t like that book. Or no, and I watch the response, and I’m like, oh, I know that. Of course you like it. You just don’t know. You do get this constant kind of harassment almost. So I think just that knowledge about boundaries, it shouldn’t be something that they come around the back door and harass you about, obviously, or make snide remarks about or attack your character if it’s something that you have made clear that you stand for or that align with your values.

Anne (19:26):
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate the time that you’ve taken to talk with us today. Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

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Although it might not necessarily look like a cycle, emotional abuse shows up in patterns. If you know what to look for, understanding the cycle of abuse can help you understand your situation.

“I felt like something was off…but I didn’t know what to look for.”

Elizabeth, like many victims of hidden abuse, felt unsettled early on in the relationship. But she didn’t have the language or professional support to identify that her abusive husband was putting her through the devastating cycle of abuse. Tune in and read the full transcript below for more.

This episode is Part 1 of Anne’s interview with Elizabeth.Part 1: Is The Cycle of Abuse a Myth? (this episode)
Part 2: How to Set Boundaries in an Emotionally Abusive Relationship

The Cycle of Abuse Makes You Feel CrazyLike many women, Elizabeth sought professional help early on in her marriage because she felt crazy in her relationship. If you are feeling crazy in your relationship, please know that gaslighting, blame-shifting, secret intimate betrayal (including porn use), and sexual coercion are abuse issues and must be treated as such.

Understanding the cycle of abuse can help you identify what’s really going on, early on.

What is the Cycle of Abuse?The Cycle of Abuse Consists of Four Main Phases: Grooming: this phase is often called love-bombing. We also refer to it as “manipulative kindness”. This phase can last minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, or in some cases, decades. Abusers groom victims by presenting whatever version of themselves seems most safe, secure, “attachable”, and healthy to you. * Tension: this phase is often very painful for victims. Women experiencing abusive tension often blame themselves, feeling responsible for the abuser’s neglect and verbal abuse – because it’s starkly different from the grooming behaviors that the abuser used to manipulate them into the relationship. * Action: the action phase is unique to each abuser, but consists of the harmful behaviors that constitute hidden abuse, including: gaslighting, manipulation, intimate betrayal, financial betrayal, etc. * Denial:* women are often on the cusp of setting safety boundaries, including separation or divorce, during the denial phase. Abusers use gaslighting, manipulation, and blame-shifting, to “erase” the harmful behaviors of the cycles before – but often, victims come to a place where they’re simply done with the pain and confusion of hidden abuse. Tragically, this is also the phase where abusers tap into a deeper level of manipulation and coax the victim into the grooming phase, where the cycle starts all over again.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouThe good news is that many, many victims are identifying the cycle of abuse in their relationships, earlier and earlier.

If you’re realizing, maybe for the first time, that you’re experiencing emotional abuse, please know that you are not alone. Consider attending a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:01):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

We have a member of our community on today’s episode. Her name is Elizabeth and she is going to share her story. Welcome, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth (01:34):
Thank you.

Anne (01:35):
She’s been a podcast listener for a long time. It’s always an honor to have podcast listeners on, so thank you so much for supporting the podcast by listening to it. Let’s start with your story. Tell me about the beginning. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

“It felt like such a change from when we were dating.” Elizabeth (01:54):
I noticed some things before we were married regarding his behavior, specifically with social media. There was an instance when he omitted some information and I didn’t, of course at that point consider it abuse. I just addressed it with him, was honest upfront and he was agreeable and said that I was right, and I thought, that’s it, that’s solved. And I felt like he heard me and we kind of moved on.

Once we were married, I noticed that some of his responses to me, I just felt like there was a lot more contempt. He kind of was less agreeable if I brought things to him, and that’s when I started to have some questions and feel quite out of sorts because it felt like such a change from when we were dating.

Anne (02:46):
Do you mind me asking what was the nature of the information that he withheld before you got married?

The Early Stages in the Cycle of AbuseElizabeth (02:52):
We hadn’t been dating that long. I had a trip planned with a couple of my girlfriends to go to Europe. and it had already been for quite a while and I was going to be away for a couple months. I had felt like I wanted to pursue the relationship and he said, do you want to be exclusive? And it was a big yes for me.

So when I was away, I felt like communication was difficult. I felt like it was hard to pin down, and he had said he was going to go camping one weekend and I had this gut feeling that he may be going camping with someone he worked with who was quite a bit younger than him, and I don’t know why, but I just had this gut feeling and I asked him if he did and first he said he went with just my dog.

“At first he was understanding, but then he became quite pressuring that I get over it”(03:36):
He was taking care of my dog. And then he said, oh, I went with some coworkers. I found out the truth much later. 6 months later. He went on a one-on-one camping trip with a 21-year-old when he was in his mid thirties.

So that’s obviously a red flag. But I was already pretty invested. He denied anything happened and I kind of worked through it. And at first he was quite understanding, but then he became quite pressuring that I get over it in his words after a few days of him listening to my concerns that he withheld that information. That was the situation. But nothing had happened between them that –

Anne (04:17):
You knew of.

Elizabeth (04:18):
Exactly.

What Actually Happened on the Camping Trip?Anne (04:19):
Did you ever find out later that there was something that happened between them?

Elizabeth (04:23):
He told me that she shot him down and said, no. Looking back now and the knowledge I have, I think there was a certain amount of grooming going on with that coworker and that she maybe saw him as an older brother type and in the reality there was a different motive on his end. So I think it probably confused her quite a bit if I was to put myself in her shoes.

Anne (04:48):
Totally. So had he been able to he would’ve.

Elizabeth (04:51):
Yes. And he said that.

Anne (04:53):
He said that at the time, back in the day or –

Elizabeth (04:57):
Six months later.

Is Lying Part of the Cycle of Abuse? (Spoiler: Yes) Anne (04:58):
I was going to say, that doesn’t sound like something he’d say right away. It’s really interesting to me when they decide to lie and not tell you information, and then when they decide to tell you the information, it’s almost this calculated time that is meant to hurt you, not necessarily a time to bring you closer when they feel like you’re maybe having a great day or something’s going well for you or something like that because it’s calculated to hurt you. So can you tell me the nature of when he told you this?

The “Trickle Disclosure” Can Keep Victims Stuck in the Cycle of AbuseElizabeth (05:31):
I definitely identify. There has been times when that’s the case. I used to call it the trickle disclosure. That’s kind of what I got in my relationship was, oh yeah, this flashback came back to me and it would be gut wrenching for me. And looking back, I think he did do that sometimes in that way to keep me kind of destabilized a bit.

“He was afraid I was going to leave him.” But this particular instance for this situation, I think he was afraid I was going to leave him. So he told me about this camping trip and the fact that he lied, omitted and told me at that point that now we had everything out in the open. We were still dating. And so that was like, okay, now you know everything. It was a lie.

Looking back, he did that when I first met him two days in. He lied, but I thought, wow, how vulnerable. He told me this difficult part that he had cheated on a past partner, one partner one time, it’s grooming. I had no idea what grooming was. It was a way to have me kind of trust him to say like, oh, he was upfront and told me this information, and it’s all there is. All the skeletons are out of the closet and they weren’t. But it was a way to kind of silence me a bit.

Manipulative Truth: A Key Piece of the Cycle of AbuseAnne (06:42):
I’ve been thinking of a name for this, but I don’t have one yet. But manipulative truth, which is never the whole truth, but they make you think, no one who is a liar would tell me this thing. So they must be telling the truth, but they’re telling a part of the truth that is the top of the iceberg. And if they were to tell the truth, they’d say, well, I’ve cheated on every partner. I still masturbate every day and I still look at porn and I have every intention of cheating on you because I don’t really want to be with one person. And then they say, now everything’s out on the table.

Elizabeth (07:19):
So it creates a false sense of safety.

Why Do Emotional Abusers “Test” Victims? (Is This Part of the Cycle of Abuse?)Anne (07:22):
Exactly. And they do it on purpose. I think the other issue there, if it was before you were engaged, was it test? If I tell her this partial truth, that seems horrific and she’ll still get engaged to me, this is the kind of girl I want to marry. She believes me.

Elizabeth (07:38):
Exactly.

Anne (07:39):
So they’re going to tell a partial truth that feels really true in order to test, is this the kind of woman that I can exploit sometimes, and that’s not your fault. It has nothing to do with you. It’s really, really, really scary and sad and awful. That is their intention from the beginning. That’s what was always so alarming.

Elizabeth (08:03):
It was mind blowing it to have that level of that it was that planned and calculated.

Anne (08:09):
What types of reasons did you give in the beginning for this behavior that seemed kind of off?

Abusers Use GASLIGHTING to Stop Victims from Identifying the Cycle of Abuse Elizabeth (08:14):
Initially. I think there was some self-blame, and that’s kind of the work I’ve done in my own journey. I sort of thought, well, maybe the problem lies with me. And he agreed. He agreed that the problem was probably me. I had said, well, I had done counseling in the past and I think I should take it back up. And he said, yeah, I think you should too.

So he really let me kind of go down that road of I just need to do my own work, that it was my neediness or anxiousness or this or that, that was the problem. And that there was nothing had changed really on his end, but I just felt this sense of it was sort of night or day.

We moved to a different town and it was kind a college town. There was younger women around in this college town, and I feel like maybe he was triggered from his own past because before I met him, he’d kind of been in a city where it was a lot of college students, young women around, and he was in a kind of party atmosphere and I didn’t know all the extent of it.

When Therapy Harms, Instead of Helping Victims Identify the Cycle of Abuse(09:14):
So when we moved to this new city and we were newly married and his behavior towards me changed, he helped me in that way of thinking it was me. So I started counseling and he did come to some of those early counseling sessions as well with me, and that’s when we found out there was an addiction.

Anne (09:29):
He came to confirm to the therapist that it was your problem. Did you find the therapy to be helpful in this particular situation?

“Something doesn’t feel right, something has changed.” Elizabeth (09:37):
No, I’d say no. I think she was just trying to figure things out as well. Also, I was pregnant, so the goal was to kind of help reduce my anxiety. I was feeling very anxious in the pregnancy and I wasn’t able to put my finger on what was going on.

So it felt very crazy making, and that’s what I internalized was coming from within me and that I had nothing to worry about. And here I was quite worried and that impact on my unborn child, and so she was just basically trying to support me with my anxiety. Well, turns out my gut is pretty sensitive, and so then I kept picking at the wound kind of thing and just bringing my concerns to him over and over. Something doesn’t feel right, something has changed.

Anne (10:23):
Did they diagnose you with anxiety or anything like that?

Pathologizing Victims Instead of Helping Them Identify the Cycle of AbuseElizabeth (10:27):
No. Okay. No. We used it as a diagnosis just for insurance purposes, but I’ve never had a diagnosis of anything.

Anne (10:34):
Okay. That’s good. So many women get diagnosed with something during this time because instead of their therapist saying, oh, this is your internal warning system telling you something, something’s wrong. You are reacting in a totally normal way. You are great. Let’s figure out why your warning system is going off. Instead of saying that they’re happy to be like, oh yeah, you’re just another crazy woman who’s having too much anxiety and you’re hysterical for no reason.

Elizabeth (11:06):
That’s the only message I was getting.

Is Secret Pornography Use Part of the Cycle of Abuse? (12:25):
So the therapist doesn’t help you figure out what’s going on. She doesn’t help you figure out that he’s abusing you. And then you realize he’s addicted to pornography without the help of that therapist. How did you discover his pornography use?

Elizabeth (12:40):
I kept asking, something has changed, what has changed? And I thought, is it because I’m pregnant? Again, a lot of focus on myself, but I knew something was different. I asked him. It’s never been on my radar. And I said, do you look at pornography? Because something in the conversation led me to ask the question and he said, yes, I do so that I don’t bleep other women. And it shocked me. It’s a moment kind of etched in my memory because I was in shock that he had never offered that information. That conversation had never come up.

Odd logic 😳Anne (13:15):
Also, that his opinion or his viewpoint was that if he did not look at porn, he was not in control of himself enough and he did not have the integrity or the ability or the adult skill of not having sex with someone that wasn’t his wife. That was his reasoning. Otherwise, if he didn’t look at porn, Hey, Elizabeth, you are lucky. I’m such a giver. I’m looking at porn for you because if I didn’t do this, I would be out having sex with other women and you don’t want me to do that.

Elizabeth (13:52):
It was kind of progress in his mind.

Anne (13:55):
I’m doing great kind of a thing. Oh, that must’ve been devastating. I’m so sorry. So you find out, when does the word addict come into play?

Going the “Sex Addiction Route” Can Keep Victims from Identifying the Cycle of AbuseElizabeth (14:03):
I don’t think until he started, he sought out the Sex Addicts Anonymous. I think it had been a decade since I’d even heard of the terms someone having a sex addiction. And I kind of laughed. I didn’t think it was a real thing.

Anne (14:14):
Why did he seek it out?

Elizabeth (14:15):
Much like when he confessed about the six months, the story about the girl, the 21-year-old, I think he could sense that I would potentially leave him or have him leave the house. And so he found an SA ad in the paper. He said, I’m going to go. And he went. I at that point started on the journey of thinking that was our only issue.

And then I found out it was a much bigger issue than just looking at pornography, the ingrained pattern of his character and everything. But at the time, once I started to learn about the world of sex addiction because of the group and my own support group, I thought that was the only issue.

The Problem with the COSA ModelAnne (14:58):
It’s interesting to me that it is the issue, but the issue is larger than just that this is a systemic issue, and it breaks my heart when women don’t go the abuse route, when they go the addiction route first because it keeps women in the abuse so much longer.

And in a strange way, because the answer in COSA is stay on your side of the street, work on your own things, which is kind of the right answer a little bit, but only when you know exactly what you’re dealing with. If you know you’re dealing with abuse, then you realize, oh, I don’t need to work on my side of the street. I need to get off the street.

Elizabeth (15:40):
Yes, I missed that point. That’s what I was seeking support from professionals, and I didn’t really get that direction.

🚩🚩🚩Chaotic CounselAnne (15:51):
Did you ever go to a pornography addiction therapist?

Elizabeth (15:56):
I did. I thought, okay, once I knew he had an addiction, I started reading and that was what was recommended. And she recommended after meeting with he and I that we do a 90 day separation, and she reported to me, she did not feel like there was any remorse or anything on his end is what she felt from meeting him and talking to him. So that was devastating in its own right. I had a small infant and his counselor on the other hand was not certified sex addiction therapist.

Marriage Counseling Does NOT STOP the Cycle of Abuse She was giving us conflicting information or conflicting direction, and she was trying to handle what was going on in a different way. So I was getting direction. I was still breastfeeding. I was getting direction like, You leave the house on a Saturday for 12 hours and then he can leave the house the next day for 12 hours. But the whole time I didn’t have safety. I didn’t feel safe in my home around him, but I was trying all these different things.

Question: Is his behavior an extension of the addiction, or another phase of the cycle of abuse? Anne (16:50):
Even if the person would’ve been a certified sexual addiction therapist, the likelihood of them identifying the abuse is next to zero because they don’t see it as an abuse issue. They’re not certified abuse specialists, they’re certified sexual addiction therapists, so they will identify anything he does as an extension of the addiction. So he’s in addict mode, he’s not in recovery, something like that, rather than he is abusive, which is a totally different thing for a woman to hear. I applaud that first therapist though, for saying, I don’t think that he feels remorse or anything. So even though that was hard for you to hear, at least it was maybe a wake up call.

Elizabeth (17:36):
It was definitely, we did try the separation as well, so we did separate for a short time.

Anne (17:42):
So at that time you did separate based on her counsel and then you ended up getting back together?

Elizabeth (17:47):
Yeah.

“He raged and tore things apart.” Anne (17:49):
Tell me how that happened.

Elizabeth (17:50):
He wanted to separate from me as well, definitely, but he didn’t want to leave the comfort of the home. So his idea was that he would sleep in the living room. We had a loft in our garage. He’d go sleep out there, and I took a trip four day or five day trip to California to visit a friend and to kind of have some space. I had my daughter with me, and when I came back, he picked us up at the airport. He barely acknowledged me.

There was a lot of feeling of contempt, and I was like, you know what? I want this separation, but I want him out of the home. And so I told him and he raged and tore things apart in the house, and I did call the police accidentally. I said, I will call nine one one, called the number. They came, he left. After that for two months, he still had access to my daughter. He’d still come and get her, but we really had no interaction.

Anne (18:42):
Did you get a protective order at that time?

6 More Months of The Abuse CycleElizabeth (18:44):
I did not. So fast forward a couple months, he’s still coming to get my daughter, but I kind of try to have little to no contact with him in that exchange. And then we’re at church on Easter and I go out to use the bathroom or something, and I walk by where my daughter is in the playroom and he’s standing at the doorway of the playroom, and I thought it was this reconciliatory event in my mind. And from there, he doesn’t move in right away, but we start communication again.

I don’t even know if he ever said he’s sorry, maybe once. But I thought this is where we both take accountability and we start to move forward and repair our relationship. And he eventually did move in after about a month. We were together for another six months, and it got worse. It got much worse.

The Isolation and Emotional Abuse Escalate (This is Part of the Cycle of Abuse) (19:36):
And looking back, he cut off all communication that I had with his counselor. She would allow me to call her. He wouldn’t allow me to talk to her. He wouldn’t talk to anybody in the church with me. And he wouldn’t let me be around if he was talking to his sister, who was quite a bit older than him who had been kind of a support.

For those six months he completely isolated me. I would say definitely the abuse escalated. I don’t think he really wanted to be there. He just wanted to change the narrative of the story so that when he left, it was because I was crazy and unstable versus what was the initial story. He kind of looked like the bad guy.

“This is it.” Elizabeth (20:18):
After that six months, he left and I said, this is it. He was going on a trip to see his family. I just knew. I knew that this wasn’t something we were both invested in repairing. and so I just kind of said, when you leave this time there, you’re not coming back in the home. Then I move forward on my own pretty quickly to pursue divorce because I was going to move back to Canada.

So it was kind of, part of it was that I had to kind of secure my future because when he first left, all I could think about was, how do I keep my daughter close to him? How do I make this work for him? My whole way of thinking was what would he want? And then I started to think about, what do I want and what brings me peace, and that led me to make some choices for myself and my daughter.

Anne (21:12):
We are going to take a break right here, but stay tuned. Elizabeth and I are going to continue her story next week.

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Vicki shares her courageous journey leaving an abusive marriage, including the challenges, interventions, and empowering choices that led her to safety.

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Vicki shares the heartbreaking reality of what 30 years with a covert abuser is like for a family - a nightmare of manipulation, control, and silent suffering.

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Sammy shares her experience taking the BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop as a woman of faith, finding healing and hope after betrayal trauma and emotional abuse.

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You deserve peace, calm, and stillness. Lily shares how The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop has helped her find peace despite outer chaos.

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Pat shares how BTR.ORG's brand new Meditation Workshop has helped her find healing and empowerment after betrayal and emotional abuse.

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What causes male entitlement to women's bodies? Read the layered and complex reasons why some men haven't figured out that women are autonomous individuals.

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The term consent is dangerous. Rachel Moran shares her expertise and offers hope in correct language that protects sexual autonomy.

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Uncover the secrets of gaslighting as Dr. Robin Stern and Anne explore emotional abuse, exposing manipulation tactics and offering insights for victims.

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Gaslighting expert, Dr. Robin Stern, shares her expertise on the podcast - including detailing the three types of gaslighters.

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Join Anne and Paige as they discuss the importance of nutrition and therapeutic activities for pregnant women navigating betrayal trauma and abuse.

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Betrayal trauma and abuse victims seek healing and peace from the symptoms of betrayal trauma and abuse. Paige is discussing the benefits of herbal medicines.

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Enmeshment is a concept that can be difficult to understand, especially in the context of betrayal trauma and abuse. Paige is discussing enmeshment.

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What is "Armchair Pathology" and how is it harming betrayal trauma victims? Paige is on The BTR.ORG Podcast. Tune in to find out.

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Simona studied post-traumatic growth in victims of betrayal trauma - her findings may surprise and inspire you on your journey to healing.

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Does your husband lie about small things? That behavior can be a HUGE red flag. Virginia is on the podcast with Anne, diving into psychological abuse.

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Is your marriage just hard, as marriage can sometimes be? Or are you experiencing emotional abuse? Virginia is on the podcast with Anne.

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Anne's daughter Penny is on the podcast, sharing her philosophy on how to say no and when to say yes.

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Creating peace in an abusive dynamic is often tasked to victims. Anne talks about strategies women can use in the short-term to experience respite from chaos.

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BTR is pro-safety - and sometimes that means divorce. And abusers? They hate that. Anne is going over some negative reviews from abusive men. Tune in.

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Angela Craig and Tausha Haight were victims of abusive husbands. Anne sheds light on psychological and emotional abuse.

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Anne uses the Bible to share her feelings regarding how people in positions of authority should help ease the suffering victims of betrayal and abuse.

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Ready to practice radical self-compassion? Dr. Stephanie Powell is back on the podcast sharing professional experience and empowering sentiments.

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Are you a victim of sex trafficking? Dr. Stephanie Powell from NCOSE is on the BTR.ORG Podcast defining sex trafficking - listen now.

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Even when we deeply understand the effects of misogyny, whether because we or someone we love have experienced male coercion, manipulation, and violence, it’s important to understand how misogynistic thinking may have subtlety infiltrated its way into our thoughts.

Abusers and their enablers benefit from exploiting women – and the root of that exploitation comes from misogynistic attitudes and beliefs. Dr. Jessica Taylor is back on the BTR.ORG podcast. Listen to this episode and read the full transcript below for more.

“I’m Supposed to Do Most of the Work Around Here”One subtle way that misogyny burrows its subtle way into our lives is by forcing women to take on the emotional, mental, and physical tasks of a household and family.

Abusers may use:

• Weaponized incompetence (acting or exaggerating that they don’t “know how” to accomplish a task well in order to exploit you into doing it)
• Male entitlement (because you’re a woman, you’re supposed to do it)
• Emotional & psychological abuse and/or sexual coercion (threats, intimidation, anger, manipulation, gaslighting – this may include creating a climate where you “walk on eggshells” in order to avoid being abused

Consider This if You’re Exhausted & Carrying the Burdens:

“If women listening are thinking, yeah, my husband wants me to be the stopgap in our relationship, I’m the one that needs to apologize. I’m the one that needs to be compliant. I’m the one that needs to set up the things and plan the stuff and make sure everything goes smoothly, but he just gets to call the shots and doesn’t have to do the work. That is a sign that the situation that you’re in is an emotionally and psychologically abusive one because he’s expecting other people to close that gap.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Misogynists Only “Look” a Certain Way

“[Abusive men are] learning to disguise [their misogyny]. They’re learning to make it sound more socially desirable and acceptable, but those views and those values, they’ve not gone anywhere. They’re learning how to communicate them and as you say, maintain their power and their control without outing themselves.”

Dr. Jessica Taylor, author

When society believes that misogynistic men only look a certain way – that is, that they are obvious and overt with their hatred of women – it’s easy for manipulative misogynistic abusers to fly under the radar.

Abusive men often manipulate:

• Clergy
• Family court profesisonals
• Health care providers
• Media and journalists
• Work colleagues
• Friends and family
• Mental health care specialists

and others into believing that they are “great guys” who would never subscribe to hateful thinking and abusive behaviors.

There’s Not One “Abusive Man Look”Many women find themselves in denial that they themselves could be abused – and even further deny that their husband fits the profile of “abuser”. This is simply because societally, we’ve been so conditioned to see both abusers and victims as fitting a very specific description.

Understanding that misogyny and abuse are choices made by men regardless of:

• Age
• Sex
• Background (trauma, no trauma, etc)
• Economic status
• Education level
• Race
• Whether or not they use substances like drugs and alcohol
• Religious activity level

Can be life-saving.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouDeconstructing internalized misogyny and accepting that the hatred of women is one of the key reasons that men psychologically abuse and sexually coerce women, can be difficult and lonely. We are here for you – attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Dr. Jessica Taylor is back on today’s episode. If you haven’t heard the past few episodes with her where we introduce her, go back, listen to those first and then join us. Here we are starting the conversation talking about male entitlement, exploitative privilege. James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, he had this quote in his weekly email blast, and I thought it really related to this. He said, “Ambition is when you expect yourself to close the gap between what you have and what you want. And entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.” And I think that’s kind of the heart of misogyny, is that they want to be able to have a clean house or have children or all the things that men might want, and they expect women to close that gap. Instead of saying, if I want my toilet to be cleaned or if I want my children to be cared for, or if I want this and this and this, I need to do that.

Abusive Men: “These are the things I want, But I Want Someone Else to Do All The Work”(01:04):
I need to show up to the school and pick up my child. I need to give my child good medical care. They think I want to be able to call the shots. I want to be able to say, these are the things I want, but then I want someone else to do all the work. I want to be able to get what I want and not have to actually do the thing. So had that man been able to have his wife pick up and take their daughter and do whatever he said he would’ve been happy to have his daughter stay with his ex, right? But because she wasn’t doing what he wanted and they weren’t acting the way that he wanted them to, then it was like, okay, well then I’d rather hire a nanny. I would rather hire someone else to do this because he was not going to do it. If women listening are thinking, yeah, my husband wants me to be the stopgap in our relationship, I’m the one that needs to apologize. I’m the one that needs to be compliant. I’m the one that needs to set up the things and plan the stuff and make sure everything goes smoothly, but he just gets to call the shots and doesn’t have to do the work. That is a sign that the situation that you’re in is an emotionally and psychologically abusive one because he’s expecting other people to close that gap.

Patriarchal Culture: “Women are there to serve men”Dr. Jessica Taylor (02:32):
It’s such an interesting quote, isn’t it? I really like it. And I think that the sense of entitlement also comes from the misogynistic belief of men as individuals and also patriarchy as a culture that women are there to serve men, they’re there to have sex with men, they’re there to look after men, they’re there to care for every need of that man, and that when you step out of line and it’s a very specific stereotype, you have a very specific role as a woman in a patriarchy. You’re supposed to be desirable, you’re supposed to be attractive, you’re supposed to be sexually available, but not too desirable, not too attractive, not too sexually available because then you’ve gone too far the other way into empowerment, and there’s a term in psychology in some of the research around this, around sexualization of women called sexy, but not a slut.

“You’re supposed to be everything that man wants you to be”(03:27):
So it’s like you’re supposed to be sexually available. You are also supposed to be sexually chaste. You’re supposed to be everything that man wants you to be. If he wants you to be almost like virgin, then that’s what you are. If he wants you to be easy, that’s what you are. If he wants you to have sex with him every day, that’s what you are. If he doesn’t and he wants you to only behave in a certain way, that’s what you are. That’s that level of entitlement as well is that you are supposed to fulfill the role of the inferior woman at all times, and you’re supposed to do what you’re supposed to do. And then that includes the being domesticated. So it means cleaning for him and cooking for him and looking after his kids and being like the family referee, the family secretary, the family accountant.

“They’re getting it from story books and fairytales – misogyny runs deep”(04:09):
Some of these men are literally living lives where they do not know they’re born. Women are just doing everything for them because they are almost being made to do that. They’re expected to do that, and it’s the way that we’ve socialized these men and boys and women do that. Women socialize, men and boys like that as well. So moms are doing this. It’s not just dads where they’re getting these messages. They’re getting it from their moms too. They’re getting it from wider society. They’re getting it from the media. They’re getting it from story books and fairytales, misogyny runs deep. It’s all the way through this issue, and then we see it almost manifest in all of these different behaviors and experiences that women and girls are living through and that sense of entitlement that you just talk about, I think it’s a great way of explaining it.

The Woman They Could Not SilenceAnne (05:00):
This is really highlighted in the book, The Woman They Could Not Silence by Kate Moore. It is an incredible story of Elizabeth Packard who endured immense trials in the 18 hundreds due to her husband putting her in an insane asylum. It is amazing. But what really struck me about her story and the story of women being basically property for the majority of history until the late 18 hundreds when they abolished curvature laws, is that up until that point, this is like the late 18 hundreds women were property. They did not have rights. And so at least in America, emancipation Proclamation to free enslaved people was in 1863, and women in America are not emancipated from their husbands until the late 18 hundreds, like 1890s. So 30 years after. The Emancipation Proclamation is when women are granted freedom from their husbands and they’re not necessarily enslaved to their husbands.

“The history of marriage: you basically own a woman”(06:12):
I think that historical fact is very, very important. Just like at least in America, everyone celebrates that emancipation date of enslaved people. Why are we also not celebrating 1891 when the state of Indiana passed a law ending curvature laws? Because when a woman was married, she was not even entitled to her own wages. She was not entitled to her own. When I use the word entitled, I mean she actually, it was hers, right? She could not have her own wages. She could not have property, children. Everything belonged to her husband. And then I’m also reminded of the biblical story of Jacob, and even in that biblical story, he works for seven years to purchase Leah, and then he works another seven years to purchase Rachel. The history of marriage as basically you own a woman. It’s actually really early in our time. That was only the late 1890s where marriage kind of shifted from property to partnership. I think that’s an important part of the story.

Women couldn’t develop CREDIT until 1975Dr. Jessica Taylor (07:18):
Do you know, I was so interested listening to that because in the UK that law didn’t change until 1975 that you just explained. Up until 1975 in the UK, women were not allowed to get a mortgage or have their own bank accounts, or there was discrimination that stopped them from getting things like their own credit card until 1975.

Anne (07:49):
Same thing in the US with credit cards.

Dr. Jessica Taylor (07:52):
And then in 1995 or 1996, the law was officially changed so that a woman didn’t have to perform what was known as wifely duties for the man in marriage. So if you were married to a man in the uk, there is no way that you could be abused or raped by your husband because he owns you, so you had to have sex with him when he wanted. There was no way of reporting your husband for anything because you were his property. And was 1995 or 1996 in the UK when that law changed, and it was only after the year in the mid nineties here, that you could actually report or even describe your husband as raping you or sexually abusing you because prior to that, it didn’t exist. I was a kid then.

Women’s Liberation DayAnne (08:51):
Wow. Yeah. I don’t understand why I am all for social justice and racial justice, and I’m so happy that we celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, but why are we not talking about this? Why is there not Women’s Liberation Day from in the UK in 1993 when women were finally liberated from slavery from their husbands? That’s crazy that there’s not a national holiday for that.

Dr. Jessica Taylor (09:26):
I ask similar questions in that misogyny is the last form of oppressive discrimination that is literally ignored. So I think there’s much bigger and more accepted movements around things like gay pride and around Black Lives Matter, but feminism, women’s rights is seen as a joke. It’s seen as a bunch of women. They’re hysterical and emotional, and they’re moaning about everything and making out that their rights are being rolled back. So it is so interesting the way that we have framed women as so inferior and unreliable for so long that there is no equivalent movement. There is no equivalent, like you say, there isn’t a day that marks how important that is, that women were liberated from that form of abuse and that form of slavery essentially in their relationships. There is no data mark that. There’s no data mark. Isn’t it brilliant that in the nineties in the uk, we changed the law and it meant that men could not demand sex and intimacy, whatever they wanted.

Anne (10:37):
That’s literally a sex slave.

“It’s part of the contract of marriage that you would give that man sex whenever he wanted it”Dr. Jessica Taylor (10:39):
Yeah, I know. And there was just nothing you could do at all because it was part of the law that when you got married in the UK up until, as I say, the mid nineties, it’s part of the contract of marriage that you would give that man sex whenever he wanted it. Interestingly as well, that sort of change in the law there in the nineties in the UK is little known, even professionals in this field. I’ll often talk to people in the UK and they were like, really? Was it the nineties? I didn’t even know that was a thing. I didn’t know that that was a law. I didn’t know there was any change that was made, and it’s just not spoken about. It always makes me think about the fact that that means that as we were saying, because this is only the nineties, it’s not a long time ago. It’s 30 years ago or less than 30 years ago. That means that there are women living right now that were in those marriages at that time. They were married at that time. They were under that law at that time. That meant that they had to give sex and essentially they had no consent. There was no consent was there because there’s no need for consent if you are contracted by marriage to be required to have sex with a man.

“We have to act like we respect women while still maintaining the ability to exploit them”Anne (11:57):
Well, and you think about it historically too. I think this is why the perpetrators are getting smarter. It’s because for 5,000 years they’ve had these entitlements to sex, household labor, whatever, that women were made or created to serve them. And now that that’s not politically correct, the actual genetics of it, when I say that, I just mean the historical traditions or the way they think has not actually caught up with it. So instead of actually respecting women and actually seeing them as equals, they’re like, huh, okay, well, we have to maintain it somehow, this power structure, because it works for us, but we cannot be so overt about it. We have to be subtle. We have to use the right words. We have to act like we respect women while still maintaining the ability to exploit them. That’s why it’s very difficult in 2023 when you have a professional husband who is educated and smart and wants to look good to his neighbors and wants to show up at church and look great, or wants to show up at the community meeting and be the good guy that they are going to talk and act a certain way so that they maintain their power because they’re not going to maintain their power if they say, oh, women are just here to serve me.

(13:33):
Everyone would look at them like, what? That’s not right. They’re maintaining it in different ways than they have in the past,

Abusers maintain power and control – but use subtlety to disguise their misogynyDr. Jessica Taylor (13:41):
And they’re learning to disguise it. They’re learning to make it sound more socially desirable and acceptable that those views and those values, they’ve not gone anywhere. That they’re learning how to communicate them and as you say, maintain their power and their control without outing themselves.

Anne (14:04):
Exactly. And I do want to say at the same time, I have met so many healthy men who are not this way. I know from their actions and the way they treat me and the way that I feel around them from my internal warning system, that I have actually more hope for men than I ever did before because I see the men who are healthy, who really do respect women. So that’s not to say that this episode is all about how all men in the world are like this. I think that’s another thing that hurts women, is for women to think that all men are like this. And so if they do want to be married, for example, that they have to sort of settle for an abuser because there’s no other option. There are healthy men out there, and the more we understand what this looks like and feels like, the more we’ll be able to recognize and separate ourselves from men who are dangerous to us in emotional and psychological ways from men who are healthy and men who can be a good partner or a friend or someone who is not going to harm us.

“Not All Men” = “Defending a Point I Did Not Make”Dr. Jessica Taylor (15:10):
Hard on that is because not all men is used to derail these conversations for women. The whole, yes, I agree. Not all men are like that, and they’re like, yeah, I know. I didn’t say all men did I? Do you know what I mean? You end up having to go back to people and go, I never said that. So you’re defending a point I did not make.

Anne (15:28):
Absolutely. The only reason I bring that up is I hear a lot of women saying, well, I want to be married, for example, and since there’s never going to be a man out there that is going to be completely respectful of me, I’m going to stay married to this man. So that’s why I say that. But not to say it’s not a huge problem.

Dr. Jessica Taylor (15:50):
Obviously there’s amazing men out there are. I mean, some of the people in my life that are my biggest supporters who have been there for me through things and have just helped me so much have been men. I’ve still got guys in my life right now that have elevated me, listened to me throughout my whole career, everything that I’ve done, they’ve been the one at the back going, keep going, you’re amazing. You’ve got this. I believe in everything that you’re doing, and they’ve listened and they’ve opened doors and all sorts of things, and they’ve never ever made me feel uncomfortable. And I know 100% that is a safe guy. I know that I can feel it same as you. So these guys are out there. They are. But I think that for some women, the fear of being alone and living a single life terrifies them so much that they’re always thinking if, oh God, if I leave this guy, how am I going to find someone else? And actually the first thing that needs to happen is you need to be safe and well on your own alone.

“Being on my own has got to be better than this”Anne (17:04):
Yes. Yeah. Well, I think the idea that you have to have a man or something is also a misogynistic idea.

Dr. Jessica Taylor (17:12):
Absolutely. It is. And it means that you are always scared of living life alone. And there’s nothing wrong with that. And I know loads of women that have been through long abusive hard marriages, and then they get into 50 and 60 and going, do you know what am I doing? I’m wasting years here. I’m miserable. I don’t need to do this. I could be out there on my own and it terrifies them, but at some point something happens and they say, do you know what? Being on my own has got to be better than this. It’s got to be healthier than this. And it’s a big leap. It’s a big scary jump. And I know that I had to make that, but I was much younger. I was 28. I remember that. I remember lying in bed and thinking, even if you are on your own for years and years and years, or even for the rest of your life, it has to be better than living in this.

“But what if ALL men are dangerous?”(18:10):
You cannot stay in this. This is awful. This is destroying you. And I meet women all the time that are going through that same thought process. But you’re right. Then it comes down to, but what if I don’t find anyone? But what if all men are dangerous? And what if I find another purpose and then another perp and then another perp? And the thing is that can happen. I think the message I would want to get across there is that that has got nothing to do with you. That is not your fault. That is statistically is just very likely because there are so many abusive man there are that you are very likely to then meet another guy, even if you meet him for one date and he turns out to be an absolute horrible, horrible person. You could meet him literally for two hours.

“There’s nothing I need a man for”(18:57):
Or it’s a guy that you get into a serious relationship with and you’ve been together for a few months or a few years, and then you realize, oh no, I am back in abuse. How has this happened? This guy’s got total control over me. How has this happened to me? Again, it doesn’t matter. It’s so common that you are likely to be surrounded by perpetrators, and it does mean that I think the fears of women who are thinking, but what if I never find a safe man to have a life with? I think they’re valid fears, aren’t they?

Anne (19:28):
I agree. I am not dating and I don’t want to date, and I don’t want a partner necessarily. I mean, if somebody came along, that would be fine. But my thinking, what if I can’t find a healthy man is not even in my brain because I don’t care if I never have sex again. That’s fine, right? I’m okay with that. There’s nothing I need a man for. There’s no worry in my mind or in my heart that I quote won’t be able to find a healthy man. If I don’t find one, great. I’m fine. I’m happy. I love being a mom. My kids are amazing. I love my career. I have really good friends, and I don’t mind so much romance. Actually, kind of even just saying the word romance gives me the heeby-jeebies a little bit. It’s like a little bit creepy for me. I’m just not really that interested in it.

Are we putting ourselves in danger by believing that romance is a need?(20:29):
I would be interested in a partner if that person kind of came my way, but I do think women put themselves in danger when they think it’s a need. When they think it’s something that if they don’t get it, they’re going to be somehow missing out. You can have a beautiful, wonderful life with amazing relationships with people that are intimate, and maybe not sexually per se, but my relationship with my kids is beautiful and my sister and my friends, and I really appreciate that. And if I can meet all of my other needs through friends and work and other things, then my life is so fulfilled. So I just don’t want any woman out there thinking, I need a man or I’m not going to be able to find one. You don’t need to find one. You can stand on your own two feet and you can meet your own needs and you can also meet other people because you do need people. You do need friends. You do need relationships, but you don’t necessarily need a sexual partner with a man. Finding a healthy partner to have sex with is so overwhelming, and so that just seems impossible that that’s why I’m like, nah, I am not going to worry about that. I can think about that.

Dr. Jessica Taylor (21:50):
I’m not surprised at all.

Check Out Dr. Taylor’s BooksAnne (21:52):
This conversation has been amazing. Dr. Taylor has three books. They’re all available on Amazon. Check them out. The one you may be most interested in listeners is called The Indicative Trauma Impact Manual, which may help you figure out yourself as you are responding to the abuse that you may be currently experiencing, and that might help you reframe or understand your responses to abuse rather than thinking that it somehow has something to do with you or that you’ve caused it. Dr. Taylor, thank you so much for spending so much time talking with us. We really appreciate your time.

Dr. Jessica Taylor (22:55):
Thank you so much for having me and for listening, and yeah, it’s been awesome. So thank you and I’ll talk to you again.

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Why do abusive men fight so hard in the family court systems? Especially when they were never really all that interested before? Dr. Jessica Taylor is back.

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Gaslighting can be obvious, gaslighting can be subtle. Dr. Jessica Taylor, author of Why Women Are Blamed For Everything is on the BTR.ORG Podcast.

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Jane Gilmore is back, explaining with logic and powerful stories & examples, why your husband's feelings and behavior are NOT your responsibility or your fault.

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Jane Gilmore is on the podcast discussing sexual grooming and consent - and how you can know if your sexual experiences are truly consensual.

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Consent is more than giving or getting a yes. Jane Gilmore is back on the BTR.ORG podcast discussing consent and sexual coercion.

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Consent is NOT simply giving a "yes" - Jane Gilmore is on the podcast giving a crystal clear definition of consent to help you on your journey to safety.

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Anne's crush on Indiana Jones may be revealing that trauma has affected her sexuality. She tells all in this short episode.

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Reunification camps are traumatizing children and ruining lives. Tina Swithin is back on the BTR.ORG podcast shedding light on this lucrative, abusive industry.

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Google “Reunification Therapy” and you’ll see corruption at work – because Reunification Therapy is anything but healthy and safe.

Tina Swithin from One Mom’s Battle is on the BTR.ORG Podcast to tell you what you need to know about Reunification Therapy. Tune in and read the full transcript below for more.

Reunification Therapy Disempowers ChildrenTherapy should, first and foremost, empower children. Reunification therapy does the exact opposite:

“[The abused children] are told that nothing in the past matters. We are only focused on here and now and future movement. And then when the kids bring up, but he did this to me or this, they redirect them back to present day, the past does not matter. And, and we are talking about children who have been sexually abused.”

Tina Swithin, One Mom’s Battle

Reunification Therapy is Traumatizing

“In cases where there is abuse, this is further traumatizing these children. When these children are not complying or going along with the program, then the extreme situation would be for the reunification therapist to stamp off on the case and recommend reunification camp. That’s a very extreme and further traumatizing direction that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I’m haunted by the stories that I hear.”

Tina Swithin, One Mom’s Battle

Children who are subjected to reunification therapy are re-abused by the “professionals” who are trying to gaslight them into blaming their protective parent for the negative feelings they have for the abuser.

How Do Reunification Therapies and Camps Traumatize Children?Not only are the children traumatized by the gaslighting itself, but children are:

• Often forced into participation against their will.
• Accused of lying about the abuse.
• Forced to spend time with their abuser.
• Isolated from their protective/preferred parent.

“It is traumatizing for these kids – they are cut off from all contact with their preferred parent.”

Tina Swithin, One Mom’s Battle

Abusers Weaponize Reunification TherapyConsidering how harmful Reunification Therapy is, how can it possibly exist?

It’s a “lucrative cottage industry” that abusers have weaponized in order to gain access to their child victims while causing inexpressible pain to the protective parent.

And those in the reunification industry continue to push for it because it lines their pockets.

“[Reunification therapy] is a lucrative cottage industry.

And so when the judge’s calendars are overbooked and people are being forced through this system like cattle, and the judges are in this state of overwhelm, they almost have, I call it the a la carte menu on their desk: oh great, I can push this case off on this person who has the ability to dive in and investigate what’s going on. But that person is financially motivated to label a parent as alienator.”

Tina Swithin, One Mom’s Battle

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouIf you are in experiencing the trauma of the family court system, please attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today – you are not alone and you do not have to endure this on your own. We love you, we believe you.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a super special guest on today’s episode. It’s Tina Swithin and so many of you are familiar with her. She is the author of Divorcing a Narcissist: One Mom’s Battle, one of the best selling divorce books of all time. She has also authored three additional books in the divorcing a narcissist series: Advice From the Battlefield, The Narc Decoder, and Rebuilding After the Storm. Tina is an internationally recognized blogger, divorce coach, and champion of children’s rights in the family court system. Tina endured a 10 year family court battle representing herself and against all odds was successful in protecting her children. Tina works to raise awareness on the shortcomings and failures of the family court system while educating the public on post-separation abuse and narcissistic abuse. Tina is remarried and resides in San Louis Obispo, California with her husband and two teenage daughters. Welcome Tina.

Tina (03:54):
Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Happy to connect.

What Are Reunification Camps & Reunification Therapy?Anne (03:58):
We had the privilege of meeting in person in a protest that was happening in Utah about family court and how it does not protect children. So that was really exciting. You may have seen us do an Instagram Live during that time and I was so happy to meet her. So I wanted Tina to come to talk about a few issues related to family court and how in most states for a protective parent who is seeking a divorce from an abusive parent, that protective parent really has a very hard time protecting her children. On my podcast, because our audience is women who have been abused by men, I speak in gender segregated ways simply because that is our audience. But I do wanna recognize that the women can be abusive as well. However, for our listeners, since they’re all women victims of male abusers, that’s why I talk like this. Should we start with reunification camps and maybe reunification therapy?

Tina (05:03):
Yes, I think that’s a, a good place to dive in and it’s a, a really hot topic right now and I was pleasantly surprised to be able to meet you in real life at the protest in Utah. And it is, it’s a big topic and it’s a really important one. It’s something that has infiltrated the family court system and is definitely not in a child’s best interest.

When Protective Mothers Can’t Protect Their ChildrenAnne (05:27):
So I have a friend who’s a pediatrician and sometimes she refers cases that she sees in her pediatric office to DCFS, which is Division of Child and Family Services here in Utah. And she’s never had a case in Utah come back as supported. Every time she reports child abuse in the state of Utah, it comes back as unsupported. And the reason it comes back as unsupported is because usually it’s the safe parent, like a safe mom that brings the child into the pediatrician’s office and that it happened at an ex-husband’s home or a scenario where they’re separated. And when DCFS goes to talk to the man who is accused of the abuse, as long as he has a reason, as long as he says, oh no, that’s not what happened. What happened was I was trying to help her with her homework or I was trying to explain to him how to do this or I’m so sorry I lost my temper, but really I am a good dad.

(06:36):
As long as he can explain it and he doesn’t say, yes, I am an abuser, it comes back as unsupported. And so she just has no way of being able to help these protective moms protect their kids from abuse. In many cases that kids don’t wanna go. And so can you explain what happens in family court when the kids are like, Hey, I don’t want to go. My dad is abusive, he has hurt me and I’m not interested in going, how does the court view that when it comes to parental alienation and then what is their solution?

“This Is An Entity That Is Failing Our Kids”Tina (07:11):
To piggyback on what you said about CPS or whatever the entity is called, it’s a universal problem across the entire country. And I believe there are two things at play. Number one, there is a very strong bias that moms make up abuse allegations to get a leg up in custody. So as soon as they hear that there is any type of family court case or child custody situation, they cannot close it fast enough. And so that’s a lot of what we’re up against. And then the second factor of that is that the threshold for what’s acceptable because of the horrors that they see on a daily basis is so skewed. And so the majority of situations that they’re investigating don’t even register on their scale of abuse or neglect. And it’s really unfortunate because this is an entity that is failing our kids.

(08:16):
And when a mom is in the family court system, she has very few resources to support her truth and her side of the story. Most people walk into this naively believing that these other organizations are there to act in a child’s best interest. And so they walk in with this false sense of hope that if a pediatrician does report it, it’s going to bolster their case and their ability to protect their child. I tell people in family court, you know, I don’t believe that reports do anything except that it becomes a paper trail. If you get enough of them, it can start to have an impact. But you know, when moms are in family court, there are many, many challenges that they are facing. And CPS findings are just one of those.

“[Most] Abusers Do Not Abuse Children in Broad Daylight”Anne (09:15):
You get an unsupported case, first of all. So your first barrier is number one, thinking that reporting is going to help, right? Because reporting, they do a very quick investigation and as long as he has a quote unquote good reason, it’s unsupported. And then you look like the bad guy for claiming he’s abusive when he’s not. And the only thing he had to do was say, no, no, no, I’m not abusive. And that negates both the victim’s account, which is the child and then also the safe parents account.

Tina (09:52):
And I think a large part of the problem in family court is that it is “he said, she said” and I’m generalizing, obviously there are other pronouns that could be used in that situation, but they have the same issue that CPS does for the threshold of what’s deemed as acceptable is so skewed. And so they take someone’s word at face value and the majority of things that happen in family court are considered hearsay. And the family court system becomes annoyed with people. You know, they don’t understand the dynamics at play, that this is typically one high conflict individual and one parent who is desperate to protect their children, but they get lumped into that same category. And it’s really difficult to go in with solid evidence because abusers do not abuse children in broad daylight. They do sometimes, but it’s very rare.

“Most Family Court Judges & Professionals Have No Training On These Issues”(10:52):
Usually what is happening is behind closed doors, we’re dealing with a court system that if at, at a very minimum they have the 101 training on domestic violence, but most family court judges and professionals have no training on these issues. And so when you get into the more complex topics and the coercive control and all of these other issues, it’s an uphill battle. You know, there’s a reason why it took a decade in my case to finally terminate rights. And that’s a common scenario. I tell people, if your case is not still active when your kids age out of the system, it’s somewhat of a miracle.

Anne (11:37):
You know, it’s really interesting cuz on the abuse prevention side, right? So abuse advocates, they’ll go into schools or talk to kids and say like, if this is happening to you, reach out to a safe adult and report. And they think that if they get kids to report their abuse, they could be protected. But in court if a child says, I’m being abused, that child has to essentially prove that they’re being abused. If they just say, I’m being abused, and the accused parent says, no, no, that’s not what’s happening, then they’re not protected at all. And so that is the hard part is that children’s cries for help and they’re then doing what adults told them to do, right? They, they were like, okay, I went to that assembly and now I’m going to reach out and I am going to ask for help. I’m gonna report that this is happening to me. And then they are further abused by a system that just won’t believe them or discounts their accounts.

Why Don’t Court Professionals Believe Children?Tina (12:39):
And these professionals who are barely trained in the 101 of domestic violence don’t understand victim perpetrator behaviors and how children present when they’re telling these stories. And you know, a a statement that I heard in the past few months that really resonated with me is that it’s easier for people to believe that a child is being coached to disclose these things than it is for people to believe that a child is being abused.

We don’t want to believe that there is this darkness in society, but it there is, and we have to start listening to these kids because as you touched on, when a child finally feels empowered, finally feels brave enough to do what they’ve been told to do, the healthy parent, the mom in most situations is accused of coaching them, or the big word in the family court system, which has infiltrated and created an absolute disaster, alienation. You’re accused of alienation and it’s a legal strategy employed by abusers to turn the table and take the focus and spotlight off of what they have been doing behind closed doors and shift the blame to the parent who is just trying to protect their child.

The Truth About “Parental Alienation”Anne (14:00):
Now in so many of these cases, the quote unquote solution to this alienation. So a child is desperately trying to not have to have contact or not be exposed to further abuse in the form of just being around their abuser. The court says, no, you have been coached into saying you’re abused, you’re not actually abused. Your parent that you say is abusing you is fine, they’re a great guy. In fact, you need to like get your story straight. And so we are gonna court order you to reunification therapy or a reunification camp.

So this reunification therapy can take many forms. It can be a reunification camp where the children are kidnapped essentially and taken across state lines trafficked. Or it can be in the form of reunification therapy where they’re forced to do therapy to reconcile with their abuser, meaning the abuser still has access to them and a child is forced to improve or repair their relationship with their abuser. So can you talk about both of those forms of reunification torture, let’s call it?

Understanding the Corruption of the Reunification IndustryTina (15:24):
Sure. it is, that is what it is. The way I describe it: if there is a finding of abuse and everyone’s on board and believes this is happening, it cuts off the financial flow of money because we know we cannot fix an abuser.

Anne (15:40):
Really quickly. Are you saying that, let’s, let’s just pretend for a minute that they were like, oh child, you’re being abused. Okay, you don’t have to go with your dad. Your mom gets full custody, the end and the custody case is over, the divorce case is over, it’s signed and they just go their merry way. Are you saying that if that would happen, then all the custody evaluators, all the Guardian Ad Litems, all of the therapists, et cetera, that are part of this system would not be able to make money because they make money off of these court ordered requirements?

Tina (16:17):
Absolutely.

Anne (16:19):
So they’re all kind of in on it.

“Rings of Collusion”Tina (16:24):
I think that there are some who really do believe they’re doing the right thing. You know, there is this common thought that two parents are better than one no matter what. I don’t agree with that. I think a child needs one healthy adult in their life to thrive, but that’s a large part of the bias that we are up against in the family court system. And so I think we have a range from professionals who really do believe they’re doing the right thing or they may really be doing the right thing to people who this is their financial livelihood. And from that we see rings of collusion or outright corruption. Throughout the family court system, there are a lot of people who are motivated by their own bank accounts versus what is in the best interest of a child.

Anne (17:19):
One of my questions is, since it’s the Guardian Ad Litems and the custody evaluators and the therapists that get the money from this, and a judge is just given just a regular, you know, salary from the county or from the state, they’re not necessarily paid more if they send more kids to reunification therapy, for example.

Who Benefits Financially in the Alienation Industry?Tina (17:44):
I think that when we’re looking at judges and why they would order this, if they are on a, a regular salary and they’re not financially incentivized, there are the range from those who believe they are doing the right thing and they’ve drank the Kool-Aid, that it has been poured by these professionals in, I call it the alienation industry. It’s a lucrative cottage industry. So the, the trainings that the judges are partaking in, they are seeing these people as experts.

And so when the judges’ calendars are overbooked and people are being forced through this system like cattle, and the judges are in this state of overwhelm, they almost have, I call it the a la carte menu on their desk that, oh great, I can push this case off on this person who has the ability to dive in and investigate what’s going on. But that person is financially motivated to label a parent as alienator.

Anne (18:47):
Like a custody evaluator, for example, or regarding ad litem because if they say, Nope, this is just an abuser and the person should, the kid shouldn’t go with them, then they’re not able to charge their hourly rates anymore.

Reunification Camps Are “Further Traumatizing These Children”Tina (18:59):
Absolutely. And then when the child is forced through these reunification therapies and it’s not successful because we common sense tells us you can’t force a child to have a relationship or force two people to have a relationship if it’s fractured or if there’s no bond in the first place. That has to be something that works itself out naturally, not with forced intervention.

And especially in cases where there is abuse, this is further traumatizing these children. So when these children are not complying or going along with the program, then the extreme situation would be for the reunification therapist to stamp off on the case and recommend reunification camp. That’s a very extreme and further traumatizing direction that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I’m haunted by the stories that I hear.

Anne (19:57):
The logic of this, that judges have so many cases that they’re like I’m just too overwhelmed and so I’m going to just like pass this off to a custody evaluator is really interesting because if they do that, there are more and more hearings, there’s more and more to do when that happens. If they really wanted to clear their docket, they’d just be like, oh, this child is being abused. They say they’re being abused. I’m just gonna listen to the kid declare this over. You know, it’s, it’s ironic to me that if they’re like, oh, I’m so overwhelmed that they would choose the thing that makes way more work for themselves,

“Vexatious Litigants… Use the Family Court System as Their Playground”Tina (20:38):
But they know that these cases are high conflict and some people don’t like that word, but it is the label that is used or that phrase. And so regardless of which direction it goes, they they’re going to keep filing. A lot of these abusive individuals are vexatious litigants where they use the family court system as their playground to continue their reign of terror and control. And so it’s not going to stop the case. They’re going to keep trying. So in the case of Ty and Brinlee Larson, we had Child Protective Services come in and make multiple findings of abuse, which as we’ve discussed, that is incredibly rare.

And not only did they substantiate the abuse, they labeled some of the sexual abuse and other types as chronic and severe. And when that happened, it completely took the case out of family court and the kids were protected and the kids did not have to see their abuser. There was actually a restraining order in place, I believe it was for 150 days. And at that point, the alleged abuser brought the case back into family court and before you know it, there were multiple professionals put into place a reunification therapist, minor’s counsel, and all of a sudden these children are being forced back into visits with their alleged abuser. And not only visits, but overnight visits.

What do Reunification Therapies & Camps Entail?Anne (22:12):
This isn’t even alleged at this point, right? Because it was supported by DCFS.

Tina (22:16):
Some people say because he didn’t go through the criminal justice system and he wasn’t convicted, that it’s still better to use alleged.

Anne (22:26):
Oh, all right.

Tina (22:28):
And, and you know, there’s a reason why it didn’t go through the criminal justice system in my opinion.

Anne (22:34):
So they are court ordered to have contact with their abuser, and then when they refuse, right, they’re like, heck no, we are not going, they barricade themselves in their room, then they’re ordered to reunification camp. So let’s talk more about what this reunification therapy or reunification camp entails.

Severely Alienated OR Protected by A Safe Parent?Tina (22:58):
So reunification therapy is forcing a child against their will to have contact with their alleged abuser. And I’m speaking in general terms, and if the child doesn’t want to participate or speaks out about what’s happening, then they are considered to be severely alienated and then they are subject to reunification camps.

Anne (23:23):
When you say severely alienated, basically what you mean is people think these kids have been brainwashed so much by the protective parent. There’s this other parent who has brainwashed these kids, coached them into thinking that they were abused when they actually were not.

Reunification “Therapy” Traumatizes ChildrenTina (23:42):
Exactly. So when they are labeled as severely alienated, the, the solution that these people propose is reunification camp, and these are four day intensives. They call them therapy. I cannot call this therapy. It is traumatizing for these kids, but they are cut off from all contact with their preferred parent. They are sent to this camp. We’ve reviewed testimony where some of the camp owners talk about what happens on each day of the camp. The first day. They are told that nothing in the past matters. We are only focused on here and now and future movement. And then when the kids bring up, but he did this to me or this, they redirect them back to present day, the past does not matter. And, and we are talking about children who have been sexually abused.

You know, I can’t imagine being put in a room with my abuser, let alone my abuser receiving full custody of me and me being forced to have a relationship. Everyone, I, you know, I explained this to, says it sounds medieval, how is this happening? And everyone says it sounds like a racket because it is. These camps cost around, I’ve heard anywhere between $15,000 and $40,000 for a weekend.

Anne (25:13):
We are going to pause here and Tina is going to continue to talk to us about reunification camps next week. So stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Have you found yourself wishing that your husband would just hit you so that you had “enough” justification to leave?

Many women in the BTR.ORG Community have asked: Is it okay to divorce if I’m not sure it’s abuse?

Sarah McDugal is back on the BTR.ORG Podcast answering this question – and – short answer – definitive proof and physical violence are NOT necessary for women to seek safety. Women can trust themselves and move toward safety regardless of society’s misogynistic standards. Read the full transcript below and listen to the BTR.ORG Podcast for more.

“I’m Not Sure If It’s Abuse – Can I Still Leave?”

“You actually don’t have to assess, is it abuse? Even if it’s not abuse, you could still say, this isn’t for me.”

Anne Blythe, BTR.ORG Founder

Many women find themselves stuck in a space where they have difficulty defining their relationship as “abusive” because the abuser is covert, and careful to use gaslighting and other manipulative tactics to cause the victim to doubt herself.

And in a society where women have to defend their choices to separate in order to receive the support of family, friends, clergy, and community, many women want the clarity of knowing for sure if the relationship was actually abusive.

Anne’s advice? Worry less about defining the relationship as abusive, and simply move toward safety. As you gain proximity from the abuser, you’ll be able to see the relationship and the abuser more clearly – and more easily understand the abuse.

“Is It Abuse if My Husband Doesn’t Know He’s Doing It?”Many women who are on their journeys to safety find difficulty letting go of the worry that their abuser is unaware or somehow not responsible for his abusive behavior.

Many abusers blame their abusiveness on:

• Childhood trauma
• Their parents
• Past girlfriends/wives
• Mental illness
• Alcohol addiction

Rather than taking responsibility for their actions and holding themselves accountable, abusers choose to assign the accountability to others. Many people experience childhood trauma, poor parenting, harmful relationships, mental illness, and alcoholism – and don’t abuse others.

As to the abuser not being aware? Sarah explains:

“It doesn’t have to be identified as overtly intentional to be abuse.”

Sarah McDugal, author

The abuser may not be calculating every abusive maneuver he takes – but your safety, rather than his level of intention, needs to be the priority.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG, we understand how difficult it is to let go of the hope that he may change and move toward safety without definitive proof. Wherever you are in your healing journey, we are here for you. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have Sarah McDugal back on today’s episode. We ended last week with her talking about how it would be great for men to be able to have a good relationship with their children. Of course, abusive men do not have that ability and later she’s gonna go over all of the flags of abuse. You can go to her website, it’s called Is This Abuse? And it’s an awesome chart and it has tons of information, videos and stuff, to help you understand what is abuse. So Sarah’s gonna talk about that today. So we’re gonna just jump right in with her talking about how it would be healthy for children and healthy men to be more involved with childcare.

Sarah (03:45):
In, in a healthy environment, both parents are gently, kindly, deeply engaged in the wellbeing of their children. And I do not mean one parent comes home, riles them up just before bedtime, and then goes to watch a football game while exhausted. Mom puts them to bed and Dad says, Hey, I did my good dad deed for the day. I’m not talking about one parent undermining the healthy parenting of the other one. I’m talking about that ideal. So sometimes we can recognize the things that are wrong when we look at a checklist of what abuse looks like, but sometimes also it’s really helpful to look at what the standard should be and then note what is missing. And that’s kind of the perspective I’ve been taking up until now in in what we’ve been just talking about, that equitable distribution of labor. When we’re talking about using your power for good, when we’re talking about a set of partners, a, a husband and wife who are both committed to living and treating each other and their children with love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and faithfulness and self-control. The fruit of the spirit in that kind of relationship. If that’s our baseline, then we look at what is missing. And that shows us where those things of coercive control and abusive entitlement are staring with really ugly eyes at us. Those are the things that are taking over our, our homes.

No Amount of Discussion Can Change an Abuser into a Healthy ManAnne (05:44):
And in that case, no amount of, Hey, can you please do this or please do that discussions are going to magically turn him into an appropriate partner or an an appropriate father.

Sarah (06:01):
Absolutely.

Anne (06:01):
Not. It’s not not gonna happen.

Sarah (06:03):
If you’re saying, oh wow, okay, so that’s what it’s supposed to look like, , my home life looks nothing like that. And you’re looking at that and going, wow, there are glaring gaps in my home, in my marriage. Then you have to assess, okay, is this abuse?

You Are Allowed to Say, “This Isn’t For Me”Anne (06:29):
And I agree with you. And then I wanna say, you actually don’t have to assess, is it abuse? Even if it’s not abuse, you could still say, this isn’t for me. Right? Like you don’t always have to determine the cause of the behavior to like, what if it’s a brain lesion or what, you know, I don’t know, it could be whatever, but you don’t always have to assess the cause to say to yourself, I don’t want this. I’m going to move towards something more peaceful. It is helpful to know it’s abuse. That’s my whole job. That’s Sarah’s whole job. We educate people about abuse. So I’m not opposed to people like finding out it’s abuse, that’s not what I’m saying. But I also think that so many women have this thing in their head. If it’s abuse, then I can move towards safety. Or if it’s abuse, then I could separate and I really wanna separate. But if it’s not quote unquote abuse and my pastor’s saying it’s not that bad and my therapist is saying, I just need to communicate better and this other thing, and I just read this book and in this book it says that it’s not, if it’s due to his childhood trauma. And so I’m going to try to like work this out longer even though I really feel unsafe, then spending any more time trying to determine the cause is not the best use of our time when we could just start making our way to safety.

“It Doesn’t Have to be Identified as Overtly Intentional to be Abuse”Sarah (07:53):
But see, this is where I wanna point out a really crucial thing, and that is it doesn’t have to be identified as overtly intentional to be abuse.

Anne (08:04):
Absolutely.

Sarah (08:06):
You don’t have to know why with complete clarity in order to say it’s happening, it’s wrong and it’s unsafe. You can spin your wheels forever trying to figure out which thing made someone be this way.

Anne (08:27):
We can also, with so many of these guys, they are so good at manipulation and storytelling and stuff. Even if they, they knew exactly what they were doing, putting on some kind of show or giving reasons for it, like, oh, I was just so damaged as a child, or I must have something wrong with me. I need help. You know, that type of thing is just so in their wheelhouse.

Sarah (08:51):
You should go get that help if you are . So if you know, if your childhood trauma was intense, then you absolutely need to be in therapy. But also I would like to know why if your childhood trauma was so intense, why would you repeat that to anyone else? Because you would know how it feels.

Having Childhood Trauma is NOT a Justification to Abuse OthersAnne (09:11):
Well, totally. And also I wish you the best of luck.

Sarah (09:15):
Yes. Right? And, and you should absolutely be getting help from that. You may not be putting me or the children in danger and passing on that generational trauma while you deal with your stuff.

Anne (09:29):
Yeah. I wish you well. I am so sorry that that happened to you. Um, the result is that you’re unhealthy now, which means that I am going to separate myself from your harm.

Sarah (09:42):
Yeah. I, and, and you have the right to be safe from harm. Your children have the right to be safe from harm. And you know, occasionally there will be someone who says, wow, you do have the right to be safe from harm. I’m gonna go work on me. And once in a while there is a family or a relationship where the abusive partner goes and does that work. But you still have the right to be elsewhere and to be safe while they’re doing it.

“Safety” Also Means Emotional SafetyAnne (10:15):
Now, while we’re talking about this, I really wanna hit home that when we say safe, we mean emotionally safe. Someone who’s not lying to you, someone who’s not deceiving you, someone who’s not gaslighting, you we’re not talking about that they’re not hitting you. Obviously if they’re hitting you get like, we don’t want them to hit you. That’s not what we’re saying. That’s not what I’m saying. Uh, but I’m just, safety is emotional safety. It’s psychological safety that the reality that they are presenting to you is reality. That they’re not always trying to undermine your reality. Like that is safety. And so many women who listen to this podcast, Sarah, you probably run into it online all the time. They, when we say safety, I think they think, okay, well I think I’m safe cause he is not hitting me. Rather than thinking, wait a minute, what is safety? Safety is being with someone who is honest; safety is being someone who cares enough about me that they’re able to say, Hey, do you wanna go ice skating? And then I’m like, no, I don’t go, I don’t like going ice skating. And then they say, okay, no problem. I’ll go ice skating and we’ll meet back up later. Right? Like, that’s safety. Not like why you don’t wanna be together as a family. What’s wrong with you? You know, that kind of thing. Like, no, that’s not safe. So we’re talking emotional and psychological safety.

What Is Sexual Safety?Sarah (11:32):
I’ll take it a step further. And that is within marriage, not just outside of marriage. You also have the right to sexual safety. And that was the freedom to say, no, I don’t feel like it. No, I’m exhausted. No, I just had a baby. No, for whatever reason, I’m simply not in the mood. And to be able to say no and not be punished for declining, not get the silent treatment, not be having someone beg and plead and coerce and persuade and or bribe. Well if you’ll do this with me, get you that. Or I’ll be nice for a few days. Any of those things that’s actually sexual coercion and depending on exactly how it’s playing out, it, it can even be rape inside a marriage for that matter. You have the right to sexual safety in that when you stood at the altar and vowed to whatever variation of vows that you would be faithful to this person with your body.

(12:45):
You have the right to live the rest of your marriage in sexual safety knowing that they are not breaking that vow on a screen with their eyes, with their mind or with their body. So that includes porn, webcams, extracurricular content of kind, all things, all the things. When we are living in abuse, we generally have brain fog, right? Very often you just don’t know, maybe you grew up watching your dad treat your mom this way, so you think it’s normal. Maybe your pastor has, has preached so many sermons about how you know that, that it’s, this is just your role or it’s your job to make sure you’re sexually available as often as he wants it so that he doesn’t stray or whatever. And so maybe it just started off where it seems really nice and then it has just increasingly gotten more confusing. And then sometimes he’s very nice.

What is Psychological Reproductive Coercion?(13:55):
We know that’s manipulative, uh, niceness manipulation sometimes he’s really awful. But then he is really nice again. And, and it’s just super confusing in that vortex. And you know, you and I have done a whole episode about the vortex before, but it can be so helpful to have kind of a checklist of things to look for, weaponizing your belief systems, cyber abuse. Because using technology to to monitor and to surveil and abuse is more common now than it ever has been. And then there’s emotional and financial and intellectual, but then we also have legal abuse, post-separation and litigation, abuse and medical and then pets and property and physical abuse. And psychological reproductive coercion is things like, um, pressuring her to conceive or if she is pregnant, forcing her to have an abortion or forcing her to remain childless because he doesn’t want the responsibility of kids like stealing motherhood from her.

(15:09):
That’s reproductive coercion. The the flip side of reproductive coercion is things like stealthing. Stealthing is where a guy either sabotages or removes his condom in the middle of sex and he’s not doing it with her consent. And he may do it even without her knowledge. It’s actually a sexual assault crime in Canada. Um, using religious beliefs to forbid, um, prevention of pregnancy or any prenatal care is a form of reproductive coercion, coercing or manipulating sex when you know that she’s fertile is reproductive coercion. Especially when you’re dealing with someone who’s not ready to become pregnant or maybe her health isn’t great. Uh, and then another aspect of reproductive coercion is prioritizing her recovery after childbirth as a lower need or a lesser need than him getting sex when he wants it instead of waiting for her to heal. So all of those related to pregnancy and conception, any form of trickery or coercion related to pregnancy and conception. Um, some of those are actual crimes depending on your area. And it’s a bit separate from just the straight mainstream sexual abuse inside marriage. And then we also have social abuse, spiritual abuse and verbal abuse. And all of those boomer around this center axis of the abuse of power. We really believe that women need to be able to know what they’re dealing with. You can make safe decisions if you’re not making a fully informed decision.

“You Can Make Safety Decisions Without Knowing Everything”Anne (17:00):
You can make safe decisions not knowing everything. You can move towards safety. I think the problem is the opposite, that women feel like they can’t move towards safety unless they have a reason. I’ve met so many brave women who I I am I was not like this. And so I’m in awe of them who didn’t maybe really understand abuse or they didn’t understand things and they just were like, you know what, I don’t want this, this is not what I want. And then after divorce they’re like, whoa, that was abuse. Check it out. Yeah. Um, and and I’m like, good for you. Cause they weren’t waiting around for like someone to give them permission to say, you know what, it doesn’t really matter what this is. It’s not, I don’t want a life, like I’m going to separate myself from these behaviors no matter what they’re called because I’m not a fan.

(17:55):
I do not have mixed feelings. Like I am an educator as you are, right? Like we educate women about what is abuse so that they know, but there’s this, this part of me that’s so sad that women need a reason to do the thing that they want to do anyway that they didn’t know that they could do. Do you know what I’m saying? There’s just this part of me that’s like, oh, I feel bad that women aren’t like, you know what, this isn’t for me and it doesn’t matter what it is. You know what I am, am I making sense?

Why Does Society Hide Abuse So Well?Sarah (18:26):
What I see as kind of a balancing thing to that is there’s, there’s two sides, and this is the same kind of thing that we were talking about earlier. There’s the reality that is, and there’s the reality that we wish would be. So what I hear you saying, and correct me if I’m wrong, but what I hear you saying is that in the reality that you wish for women could simply feel free to say this is not right, it’s not healthy and I’m not putting up with it.

Anne (18:59):
Yeah. Like I wish the reality was that society and religion and everything did not hide abuse so well. And that also said to a woman, it doesn’t really matter what you think and how you feel unless you have a good, really good reason and you can define it as in you have a black eye, right? Then you are just complaining, you know, like, stop it.

Sarah (19:29):
Do you think a lot of that might just center back on that baseline of, of gender-based control?

Anne (19:40):
Yeah, I do.

“You Are Functioning, Autonomous Adults”Sarah (19:42):
It Makes space for gender-based violence. It makes an excuse in the framework for gender-based violence. So when we step back and we start saying to women, Hey mamas, not mamas, women across the board, you are functioning autonomous adults. There is literally nothing in a healthy belief system that says you can’t or shouldn’t or are not allowed to operate as a fully functioning autonomous adult. You have an equal right to safety, to protection, to provision and to thriving in whatever capacity you have been created to be as any man. And that is your God-given. Right? So we have a lot of women who have been raised. Now certainly this is not all women, but I think you and I both see it, especially in certain aspects of faith community, we see a higher than average proportion of women who have been raised to believe that they don’t actually have a God-given right. To operate as and to function as independent individual autonomous adults that they have to ask their dad or ask their brother or ask their husband.

Anne (21:19):
Yep. And the other thing I’m thinking is it can’t just be because they don’t like it. It can’t just be like, I feel uncomfortable, I do not like this situation. They have to have a quote unquote really good reason. And so because of misogyny says you have to have a really good reason and then you say, well, this is a good reason I feel uncomfortable, I feel unsafe. You might not use the word abuse, but then they can always say, well that reason’s not good enough,

Sarah (21:48):
. Right? That’s not my reason. So it doesn’t count

“I Don’t Like This” Is A Good Enough ReasonAnne (21:51):
Exactly. So it doesn’t count. And even if we say it’s abuse, even if we’re like, Hey, I got this chart from Sarah, she’s amazing. And look, it’s abuse on all these different things we still get from clergy, perhaps therapists like, oh, well, you know, that chart doesn’t really take into account his childhood and look how amazing he is when he does this. Right? And so just, I don’t like this for some reason is not good enough in today’s society. And I think that’s what’s making me sad today that like, I want the listeners to think that’s good enough for us. If you were just talking to Sarah and me, and even if, even if it wasn’t Abu, you know, I don’t know what it, let’s pretend like we don’t know what it is we do, it’s abuse, right? Let’s just pretend like we didn’t know. I want you to know that Sarah and I would say that’s good enough that you don’t like it is a good enough reason.

Sarah (22:49):
Yeah. And I think that for me, one of the biggest goals that I have for every woman that I work with is to encourage her to recognize that she has a divinely bestowed God-given right to live her life in power and in love and with a clear mind for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind. And the more that we can give women these tools to recognize that you have the right to use your sound mind to decide what is right and best and safe and enjoyable for yourself and your children, that we have done our job. So I just wanna throw it out there. This, we have this chart if you are sitting and questioning and asking, I don’t know if it’s abuse, if you feel emotionally or spiritually or morally obligated to go ahead and have that validated reason. I understand that I was the same way. And that’s one of the reasons we’ve got this free chart. And you can get that for yourself. You can check it out and get it, download it at I deserve to know.com/is this abuse.

Anne (24:19):
Sarah, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today and thank you for, um, going down my little rabbit hole that I was like obsessed with today. You’re amazing. I’m so grateful that Sarah could come on today and share her knowledge with us. She’s a wonderful advocate to victims everywhere. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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When your husband doesn’t help with housework, takes a backseat to parenting (except to yell at and control the children), and controls the finances (despite the fact that you contribute financially to the family, whether by your income or the labor that you offer to keep the family comfortable), you may be experiencing coercive control.

Sarah McDugal is on the podcast with Anne, and together they’re breaking down what equality actually means in a partnership. Tune in to the BTR.ORG Podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Equality Means That Both Partners Contribute to Domestic Labor TasksIn many abusive marriages, women do the majority, if not all, of the housework.

Abusive men feel entitled to a home life where they are served by their wife and children. They choose to see women as subservient – and may back this entitlement up with:

• Spiritual abuse, citing misogynistic scripture.
• Their income, stating that because they make money, they shouldn’t have to do housework.
• Weaponized incompetence, claiming that they don’t know how, or were never taught, how to do domestic labor, such as dishes or mopping.
• “Benevolent patriarchy,” which is similar to weaponized incompetence. Abusers may use manipulative praise to convince the victim that since she is better at domestic labor, she should be the one doing it.

When Your Husband Doesn’t Help With Housework, You Don’t Have to Internalize the MisogynyIt is very easy to internalize the abuser’s narrative when he tries to convince you that he’s right and that everyone agrees with him that it’s your job to the majority of the household tasks.

This is misogyny, and it’s not your responsibility to internalize it.

Rather than accept the abuser’s narrative, you can set and live by safety boundaries to separate yourself from the abuser’s harm.

How is Housework Handled in Healthy Relationships?

“Each partner is using whatever power they do have for the betterment, the protection and the uplifting of the other partner and of the home and family as a whole.”

Sarah McDugal, author

Healthy men are equally involved in household labor.

In healthy relationships, couples divide household labor according to what they’re interested in, what works with each individual schedule, and what needs to get done.

Rather than assigning tasks based on traditional gender roles, couples take into account personal capacity and their individual talents. For example, if one spouse enjoys cooking, they may generally be in charge of preparing dinner, while the other spouse may usually take care of yard work. Spouses may take turns cleaning bathrooms, or clean them together on Saturdays.

Ultimately, couples work together to make sure that household tasks are completed, without competing and comparing who has the heavier load. Couples in healthy relationships trust each other and know that neither spouse will experience burn-out because they can communicate and care for each other.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAbusive relationships drain victims of emotional and physical energy. You deserve validation, support, and compassion. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. On today’s episode, we have, my dear, dear friend Sarah McDugal. You can find her on Facebook. I love Sarah, she’s been on the podcast before. She and I are so grateful for our friendship. So welcome, Sarah.

Sarah (03:19):
I love your audience.

Anne (03:22):
I do too. So if you’re listening, thank you. I don’t thank you enough. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I appreciate it. Sarah appreciates it. It’s amazing how many victim warriors, sheroes, survivors, whatever we wanna call ourselves, are out there and how big the community of survivors is in general, right? Not just women who listen to BTR, but just women who are looking for answers online.

Wholeness, Kindness, Safety, and UnitySarah (03:48):
Yeah, absolutely. I was talking to my team just this week and one of them was mentioning how when she was trying to get out, the resources that exist (you guys, us), simply weren’t there. And there is such a movement…some would freak out about a movement where women and children are empowered against abuse because to some it feels like it’s the end of all the traditional things, right? But really, I see women and children and some men who have recognized that what God wants for our relationships, for our families, for our marriages, is safety and wholeness and love and kindness.
In the New Testament, we talk about the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peacefulness, patience, gentleness, kindness, goodness and self-control, self-discipline, faithfulness. And so I see the movement of, especially women, cause that’s who I work with, who are standing up and saying, “No, we will no longer tolerate cruelty, violence, deception, faithlessness.” I see it as actually moving closer to the calling of living like Jesus Christ. Not in a wholesale destruction of allegiance to marriage, but instead taking the marriage institution off of a golden calf pedestal where it is being worshiped like a pagan God, and saying “What God designed for marriage is for marriages to reflect the wholeness and the kindness and the safety and the unity that Jesus provides.”

It’s Not Anti-Family, It’s Pro-SafetyAnne (06:08):
Both Sarah and I are Christian, you’ve heard me share from my faith experience, so we’re going to be sharing today from a Christian point of view. So for listeners who are of another faith or no faith at all, whatever paradigm you subscribe to or do not subscribe to, you’re welcome here today. We are going to be sharing from our faith perspective today. And this is just to say, this is what we’ve experienced and what we hope for people from our own point of view, so everyone’s welcome. This is not an attempt to proselytize or anything like that.
I think it’s interesting that a lot of people see movement towards safety as anti-man maybe or anti-marriage or anti-Jesus. And it’s not any of those things. It’s pro-peace, right? We’re moving toward God. We’re moving toward the principles that we have learned about in the scriptures: the ones that you just talked about. What are your thoughts about the reasons why people see victims getting to safety (emotional safety, psychological safety, sexual safety), rather than seeing it as something that God would want, see it as bad?

Sarah (07:30):
That’s a loaded question, Anne.

Anne (07:33):
What are your thoughts about the TOP reason that you think that might be?

“The Fear of Loss of Control”Sarah (07:44):
Well, I think that the top reason or the foundational reason and everything else builds on this foundation, is the fear of loss of control. This reaches far outside of just the Christian faith community. It spans any potentially religious faith community as well as simply secular or political communities, all of the above. When we have a model of relational dynamic where the operation depends on one group or party or gender or segment of the population having the entitlement to exercise control and not just control but coercion to do what they want (especially to the harm of those who are being controlled), then we have an abusive relational dynamic. However, for those who are in the position of holding the control, the system works for them very, very well, right?

Do Patriarchal Systems Lead to Abusive Relationships?(09:24):
Like you said earlier, I’m a person of faith, a woman who’s rooted in the Christian faith community. But this particular thing applies across the board outside of religious stripes. So when we are looking at belief systems of any background where the institution of marriage is held higher in value based on the right of one partner to exercise control or headship over the other partner, then we are operating inside of an abusive relational dynamic.
So now let’s step back into the Christian faith community. When we have a heavily patriarchal headship model, it is very appealing to those who would be placed in the role of having all the control and having the entitlement to coerce. And I believe that that goes back to the garden of Eden, which was the offer of the serpent in the tree: ‘You will be as gods. You will have the power to take control over others.’ And that is when you step into sin: ‘You get to rule over everyone else in a way that makes you a demigod, that places you on the throne of power over other humans’, instead of working together surrendered to God.

“Welcome Invitation, Not Coercive Control”(11:26):
Now Jesus flipped that on its head. So when we look at the words of Jesus, where he says ‘the Gentiles, the others (the ones who are not my followers is kind of what he’s saying), lord it over each other. They take control over each other, they dominate each other. That’s how people do it who aren’t following me, but if you’re following me, they will know you are Christ’s disciples by how you love each other, not by how you lord it over each other.’
In that, I believe he was effectively flipping that entitlement to take coercive control over others on its head. That, Hey, I’m a follower of Jesus, so I get to tell you what to do, he’s like, ‘No, no, no, no, no. If you’re a follower of Jesus, then you’re going to be down here beside me on your knees, washing the feet of others. You’re going to be a servant. You’re going to use any power that you have to protect, to heal, not to destroy, not to control.’

(12:53):
And so even at the end of the New Testament in Revelation where Jesus says, ‘I stand at the door and I knock, and if you come to the door and you choose to let me in, I will sit down and I will be with you.’ ‘I’ll eat supper with you’, if you wanna put it that way. Jesus’ model is one of welcome invitation, not coercive control.
Back to your original question (and I’m eager to hear your thoughts as you’re processing maybe a completely different perspective on it). When we go back to that original question, ‘Why do some people feel that preventing abuse and handling abuse firmly, rescuing others from abuse is threatening to marriage?’, I believe it is because they are afraid that if marriage becomes defined as anything other than where wives and children are under the control of husbands and fathers, under the authoritative or authoritarian jurisdiction, then all hell will break loose. They’re scared that people might not actually choose love and so they tighten the grip on control. But isn’t that the risk that God takes with us in the first place if we get to choose whether or not we want to stay there, to be responsive to love?

Power Over vs. Power WithAnne (14:54):
Yeah, I agree with you 100% about the root cause of the control, the power-over model: that you have no personal power whatsoever unless you have power over someone else. It’s that feeling that you would not be a king if you did not have subjects. And so you have to be in charge in order to have any power whatsoever rather than the power-with model, which is equality where you work together and your power comes from compromise, your power comes from truth, your power comes from responsibility. Your power comes as a couple, from both of you being equally yoked, being equally invested, having perhaps different talents, obviously different strengths and weaknesses, but in terms of being equally committed to each other without deception, because deception introduces power-over because someone has more information than the other person. I think it’s threatening. It’s like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, if wives don’t tow the line, what are we gonna do?

Sarah (16:07):
They might leave me when I’m a complete jerk. Heaven forbid we should just not be complete jerks at home.

Anne (16:14):
Maybe. And what would happen if the power were equal for abusers? That’s really threatening, right?

Equality Means Letting Each Other Lead & ThriveSarah (16:21):
Yes. Because that’s how they maintain that foundation of control is by holding the power. But I do want to point out something really quick: I believe that in a healthy, thriving relationship or marriage, we can be equal without having exact 50/50 equality in the same types of power. Now, for example, in most marriages, simply by genetic DNA, it’s likely that your husband is going to be physically stronger than the wife, right? So we’re not saying, “Hey, he and she need to be equally physically as strong and need to be equally adapted to doing exactly the same tasks.” That also doesn’t mean that we have to have a very arbitrary, specific gender stereotype. Wherever he’s stronger, he does that stuff, and where she’s stronger, she does that stuff.

Anne (17:31):
Exactly. It’s not based on gender so much as it is based on individual talents, right?

“It’s Based on Individual Strengths, Weaknesses, Interests”Sarah (17:37):
So you might have any set of couples where he absolutely loves to cook and he’s really good at it, so he does that. And you might stuff where she really enjoys, I don’t know, doing yard work or, or indoor remodeling, and she just gets a real thrill out of that, so he totally supports her interest in that. Or maybe she’s the CFO of a hospital or a bank, or maybe he works as a plumber or a construction worker and she runs the local library. Who cares, as long as they are thriving between the two of them in the gifts and interests that God has given each of them. And as long as each partner is using whatever power they do have for the betterment, the protection and the uplifting of the other partner and of the home and family as a whole.

Anne (18:42):
And in that scenario, I think it’s really important to point out that there’s never a time where someone says, well you have to do this, or I’m entitled to have you do it because you’re the particular gender, right? “Well, I’m not gonna clean the toilet cause men don’t clean toilets.” or “I’m sorry, I’m not going to mow the lawn because women don’t mow the lawn.” or things like that. But it’s based on individual strengths, weaknesses, interests.

“Pretty Much Anything Can Be Discussed and Agreed Upon According to Strengths, Interests, and Abilities”(19:15):
I talk to so many people our age (Sarah and I are practically the same age), and I don’t know what’s going on now with people in their twenties who are getting married. But I feel like nobody in our generation when we got married sat down and said, “Okay, what are my particular strengths and weaknesses and what am I interested in, and what are your particular strengths and weaknesses and what are you interested in?” And then having this conversation like, “Oh really? I don’t like to cook. You do? Okay, would you mind cooking? And he’s like, “Oh no, that sounds great.” And I’m like, “I love yard work.” I bring up yard work a lot cause I love gardening and I love yard work. So if it came down to mowing the lawn or cooking, I’d way rather mow the lawn.
Just having a conversation and then realizing, wait, neither of us like to clean the toilet, so why don’t we do every other week since neither of us like it? Or “Why don’t we hire someone to clean our toilets?”, there’s a lot of different ways to deal with that. But the answer isn’t him looking at you and being like, “Well since I don’t like it, it’s gonna be your job.”

Sarah (20:13):
There’s really one job that can’t be divvied up and that’s if you’re choosing to breastfeed. When there’s only one milk bar in town, then maybe that one can’t be shared. Pregnancy and breastfeeding are the two things.
My kids are teenagers now, but even when my kids were born, there were breast pumps and bottles. Dad, grandma, grandpa could help feed the baby. We are not in 1872 anymore. But outside of those very, very particular biological constraints, pretty much anything can be discussed and agreed upon according to the strengths and interests and abilities of any set of partners.

Traditional Gender Roles Can Harm WomenAnne (21:18):
I do think that traditional, from-the-pulpit gender roles undermine God’s mission for individual strengths and weaknesses. We’ve all been given strengths and weaknesses and to say, “Oh no, no, forget that you’re really good at math and you’d be a great engineer. Forget that. God really just wanted you to do laundry and do the dishes. That’s it. That’s it for you because you’re a woman, and let’s turn a blind eye toward the fact that you’re really good at math and you’re really, really interested in it.” Did God not say don’t hide your candle under a bushel?

Sarah (22:00):
Yeah. And I don’t recall the whole list: to some he gave prophecy and to some he gave evangelism and to some he gave teaching. I don’t recall that being “To some men he gave prophecy and to some men he gave evangelism, and to women he gave the meals. Make the sandwiches.” It’s really not how Paul said it.

Anne (22:25):
For listeners who really like making sandwiches, we are proud of you. Good job. Just because Sarah and I do not like it does not mean that it’s not a worthy thing to like. It was weird when Sarah and I first met. We were like, “Oh my word. We’re like sisters that never met before.” because we had so many of the similar views and…

What Gives You The Most Desire to Wake Up & Get Going in the Morning?Sarah (22:46):
…same personality types and the whole thing.

Anne (22:48):
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah (22:49):
I have to say I grew up doing all the things: I bake homemade bread, I can cook, I can garden, I can sew. I spent many of my classes in college bringing knitting or crocheting or cross-stitching to my college classes just to keep my hands busy cause we didn’t have fidget spinners back then. I can also drive a stick shift and change the oil; I was raised out in the country in a gardening, farming kind of family. So when I say I don’t like doing those things, it’s not because I don’t know how. And it’s not because I can’t do them well. It’s just that even though I know how to do all of those things and sometimes I find a lot of joy and satisfaction in doing those, they are not the things that give me the most desire to wake up and get going in the morning. And for some people, if that is just where you come alive, then that is wonderful. Please come live next door to me.

Anne (24:00):
Yeah, me too.

Outsourcing the Majority of Emotional, Domestic, and Parenting Tasks to Women is Not Helping Anyone(24:05):
I think that that very rigid gender role, “this is what God intended for you without actually knowing who you are as an individual”, is really counter to everything God is about. He does love you individually; he cares about you. He gave you talents, he gave you strengths, he gave you weaknesses. We all have weaknesses, cause we’re all human. But discounting that doesn’t seem right. For a man to be able to say, “Oh, I have these strengths.”, and for a woman be like, “Well we know you have these strengths, but you can’t really use ’em. You can’t really do it in that way.” “You have seven options and your options are housework, raising kids, dishes, whatever. These are your seven options and they include laundry and cleaning toilets.” is crazy. It’s crazy.

Sarah (25:03):
But you know, that being said, I just wanna throw out just kind of a side thing. So often the traditional roles don’t just outsource all of the mental load, the emotional labor and the domestic labor to the wife. It also outsources all of the parenting to mom. That’s one place where I think that’s really unfair to men, and I don’t mean this from a bitter or angry perspective at all. Knowing your children and spending time with your kids is a beautiful thing as a parent. So I believe that when we mentally assume that parenting is mom’s job because dads just bring home the bacon, we are stealing the beauty of being actively involved in the psychological, intellectual, emotional, verbal, spiritual, social development of children from dads. And I don’t think that’s fair.

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastSarah (26:37):
Dads should really just have some of this heavy duty labor too, but I can’t imagine having children and growing up not being able to know them. The huge caveat is I am not discussing abusive, broken down, dysfunctional relationships. I’m talking about the ideal.

Anne (27:00):
We are gonna pause right here where Sarah’s talking about the ideal. I paused it here knowing that it’s not good for kids to be around abuse. She was not trying to say that kids need more time with their abuser or their dad who’s abusive. We’re going to go over that next week. So stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Psychological abusers are masters of underscoring the affects of psychological abuse and conditioning victims to wonder if they’re even victims at all.

Christine, a member of the BTR.ORG community, is on the podcast with Anne, answering the question:

How Does Psychological Abuse Affect You?

Tune in to the BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Psychological Abuse Can Affect Your Physical HealthIn the BTR.ORG community, many women experienced negative consequences to their physical health as a result of psychological abuse, including Christine:

“My body and my health have suffered so extremely because of the length of time that I sat in this abuse.”

– Christine, BTR.ORG Community Member

Victims of psychological abuse may experience:

• Brain fog
• Sleep issues
• Digestive issues
• Chronic pain
• Autoimmune disorders
• Pelvic pain
• Nightmares
• Headaches
• Poor immune function

Psychological Abuse Can Take a Toll On Your Mental HealthVictims of psychological abuse in our community have also reported that psychological abuse takes a significant toll on their mental health, causing them to experience:

• Depression
• Anxiety
• Apathy
• Eating disorders
• Obsessive thoughts
• Religious scrupulosity
• Terror
• Panic attacks

Psychological Abuse is Deeply PainfulVictims of psychological abuse face the societal obstacle of not having any bruises to show how deeply they are wounded by the abuse; however, victims like Christine describe psychological abuse as:

“Torment; just so, so deep and so continuous. I don’t feel like people really understand the depth of the sorrow and pain and darkness. I very much felt like a prisoner of war. It very much felt like I was in a cold and dark and damp cell and I was crying and nobody could hear me. All of the incidents that would happen felt like my husband would drag me out of my cell and beat me again. It is so dark, it is so demonic, it’s so evil. It’s absolutely soul crushing.”

– Christine, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

Find Support at BTR.ORGIf you are a victim of psychological abuse, or wonder if you may be a victim of psychological abuse, please attend a BTR.ORG Group Session as soon as possible. You deserve validation and support as you begin your journey to safety.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Christine. She’s a traveling nurse and the mother of five children. Her children range in age from four to 23 years old. She’s been with her husband that she has now for seven years, and this is her third marriage. So we are going to learn about her story today. Welcome.

Christine (03:21):
Thank you. Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here.

Anne (03:24):
We’re happy to have you. You’ve been married three times. Would you describe all three of your marriages as abusive?

Christine (03:32):
Sadly yes, but I did not know that until going through this current marriage and all of the BTR resources. I did not realize they were abusive.

Anne (03:42):
For your first two where you got a divorce, looking back now like, “Oh, that’s what the cause was.”, you didn’t know until BTR.

“It’s Been Some Freedom, Being Able to Let That Go”Christine (03:50):
That is true. With my first one, I was very young and he ended up just abandoning us. And so I always just thought I wasn’t enough. I just wasn’t enough to keep him happy. And then going through BTR, I realized, Oh my gosh, he was gaslighting the whole time. All of these things that were going on, this is real stuff. So it’s been some freedom just being able to let that go. And then my second marriage, sadly, cause I had children from my first marriage and my second marriage, my husband became very physically abusive to them. So, of course, I knew that one was abuse, so I ended up leaving him and getting a divorce obviously for safety of my children.

Anne (04:33):
How did you find BTR?

BTR.ORG Resources Helped Christine Recognize AbuseChristine (04:36):
About a year and a half into my relationship with my current husband, it was just a train wreck. I had found out the week after I told him that I was pregnant with our son, that he was watching pornography and this ended up being an every-day, several-times-a-day habit. It was just a total train wreck and I was just crying and feeling desperate and kind of searching on the internet to try to find some supportive words or something. And I came upon the BTR listing on the website for gaslighting and it was the first time I had heard the term gaslighting and then it just blossoms from there. It was me finding the BTR website and finding the books and reading through them and listening to your podcast.

Anne (05:24):
So you’re familiar with my voice?

Christine (05:26):
Yes. You’ve been my best friend for so many years and you don’t even know.

Anne (05:31):
. I’m so happy to hear that. I’m so sorry to hear that.

“The Torment [of Psychological Abuse] Is Just So Deep & So Continuous”Christine (05:35):
There were so many times that one of the things I lost through this was the ability to sleep or rest at all. I would go to the doctor and my blood pressure would be normal on the top, but the bottom number would be so high. And they’re like, “Your body’s just not relaxing.” And so I would want to listen to your podcast, but I would have to listen to them just to be able to find sleep at night because the torment is just so, so deep and so continuous. You never get rest from them. But your voice would bring me to a place where I could actually get some sleep.

Anne (06:10):
Oh, that is such good news. My ex-husband would disagree with you. Well, I’m so glad you’re here to share your story.
So we’re gonna focus today on her third marriage, her current marriage. Focusing on this part of your story, did you recognize his behaviors as abusive at first? Can you talk about before you found the porn, how you felt? And then we’ll talk about after.

Recognizing the Psychological AbuseChristine (06:38):
At first, when I first started seeing red flags, we would be driving along and he would make a cat call to some woman on the side of the road. It would be so hurtful and shocking. And then I would minimize it and think, Oh, it’s just cause he’s been single so long. I just totally excused it. But I did not recognize it as abuse at all until I found BTR.

Anne (07:00):
So he was cat calling people in front of you?

Christine (07:03):
My gosh. Yeah. It’s one of my most painful memories. It was early on when we were dating and we were taking my girls going to the beach and this woman we were driving by bent over and he like yelled some obscenity at her, and I was just shocked. I was like frozen, I couldn’t even respond. It was so painful.

Discovering Her Husband’s Secret Pornography UseAnne (07:24):
So after you were married, did these types of behaviors continue? Did you start seeing other things?

Christine (07:33):
Yes. Sadly, he got to the point where he would start rejecting me sexually. And I had been trained, growing up in the church, that you always provide for your husband sexually and never give them a chance where they would not have their needs met and all of that stuff that they teach, that I’m realizing now is so wrong. So I made sure that I was always there and providing for that. And then he started rejecting me and he would say, “Oh I only need to have sex maybe once every four days.” and things like that. And it was just a total change from what I had known. I knew there was something wrong and I could just feel it very much in my spirit. Like, this isn’t right, and I had a feeling just from hearing sermons in church, maybe there’s an issue with pornography here. So I started questioning him and questioning him. And after I told him, “We’re pregnant, we’re gonna have a baby.”, a week after that, he finally admitted to it.

Misogynistic Tropes Fuel Spiritual & Sexual AbuseAnne (08:34):
I was just curious as to what denomination that you grew up in that you thought you needed to provide for his sexual needs like that was your job. That was just a general non-denominational Christian Church?

Christine (08:50):
Yeah. So you can hear that in a lot of churches. I went to non-denominational churches, Baptist and Methodist, and you’re gonna hear that message across all three of those for sure.

Anne (08:59):
It’s a misogynistic trope that is everywhere. And you know what’s interesting, it’s not just religious, it’s in secular places too. It’s all over the place and the religious circles. It’s spiritual abuse. Then in other non-religious places, like in a secular setting, it’s more like men have these needs and they’re animals kind of. So they have these sexual needs that women need to provide for, because if they don’t have these needs met, they’re gonna have to go somewhere else.

“I Am Not Responsible For My Husband’s Faithfulness”Christine (09:31):
I have learned that this is absolutely not true and I am not responsible for my husband’s faithfulness. That’s his job, and between him and the Lord.

Anne (09:38):
You mentioned that you thought he was just gonna have to get used to being in a relationship.

Christine (09:44):
I did think that he had just been single for so long, it would take time. But then I also thought I was being too sensitive and I remember praying in the beginning cause a lot of the Christian books will tell you your prayer should first be, Change me, Lord. So I was doing that. I was like, “Lord, I don’t know why this is bothering me so bad. Please change me, Father. Make me so that I’m not so sensitive.”

Center For Peace: A Program for AbusersAnne (10:09):
The interesting thing about that is that was your goal to be changed, to be not so sensitive, but all women should be sensitive to that.

Christine (10:17):
Right. Definitely. I’m just so glad to find out that what felt wrong is actually wrong. It’s very validating.

Anne (10:25):
The Center for Peace is the only program that we recommend for men. It comes at pornography use from an abuse issue rather than an addiction issue. So her husband has spent a year at Center for Peace. It’s a pretty intense program.

Christine (10:39):
It is. And you know, for the entire year I felt like as the wife I was totally surrounded by protectors and advocates and it really gave me the freedom to find my own healing while I had those protectors on board with me.

When Victims Try to “Fix” the Abuse by Changing ThemselvesAnne (10:54):
So before you found BTR and besides the prayer, did you try anything else to try and establish safety and peace in your home? Like maybe cooking more or exercising…?

Christine (11:05):
I tried absolutely everything. I spent thousands of dollars on new lingerie to try to keep things interesting for him. We also tried every single possible church-focused program. Most of them, in fact, all of them ended up being very damaging for me. And, you know, giving him wrong advice for sure. We also tried regular therapy. We did EMDR, we had psychological testing done, found out that I had extreme PTSD. I tried absolutely everything I could find.

Anne (11:39):
Looking back on that, trying every single thing you can find, what’s your feeling about that period now- all the searching that you were doing?

“My Body & My Health Has Suffered So Extremely Cause of the Length of Time I Sat in This Abuse”Christine (11:50):
I heard God’s voice in the beginning tell me that it was the right way to go, but I couldn’t wrap my head around it. And so I was like, “Okay Lord, but let’s try what my insurance will cover. Okay, let’s try what’s free.” And looking back, I wish I would’ve skipped all of it cause it was further traumatizing and it lengthened the process. I’m going through this for coming up on seven years now and my body and my health has suffered so extremely cause of the length of time that I sat in this abuse.

Anne (12:21):
So were you aware of BTR and Center for Peace right from the beginning but you thought, Hmm, let’s try something else, for years. Is that kind of how it went down? Sorry, I’m curious about this.

“BTR Was There… To Be My Advocate & My Friend”Christine (12:33):
Yes. For years. So I found you, I think, after being with him a year and a half and then I would listen to all of your podcasts. I read every book that you recommended. I attended BTR.ORG Group Sessions and they were very healing. And those sessions were absolute lifesavers. I have no doubt without BTR I would not be alive right now cause my depression and suicidal ideation were so severe during the darkest hours and BTR was there to pull me out of it, to be my advocate and my friend.

Anne (13:09):
If you could go back and talk to your younger self, maybe yourself in those two first marriages or maybe yourself a year ago or five years ago, what are the most important things you’ve learned and what do you think you’d be like, “I HAVE to tell myself this. This is so important.”?

What Would Christine Say to Her Younger Self?Christine (13:25):
If it was my younger self, I would tell myself the truth. I don’t know that I would’ve chosen marriage to be honest. If I knew the truth, I think I would have not gotten married in my life. I would’ve stayed single and focused on my career. It wouldn’t have been something that I chose to participate in. As much as there are many joys there, there’s so much possibility for danger. If I could go back to the beginning of this marriage, I would tell myself to run , get out, don’t stay, don’t try to work through it, just run, do not place my future on my husband.
I’m prepared either way and I know that I will be okay either way. I feel safe. And I know if he starts to be not safe again, that I know my exit plan. I’ve got a postnup and I’m okay. I’m ready either way.

Anne (14:11):
From your experience, why do you think it takes victims so long to understand that they’re being abused?

Why Does it Take Victims So Long to Understand They’re Experiencing Abuse?Christine (14:17):
Because victims don’t go into their love story any different than a non-victim. You’re falling in love, you’re having all of these special moments. You guys are connecting. At least you believe you’re connecting. Even though the other side is fake connecting and lying, our hearts are still intertwined with them. This is still our love story and we cannot imagine the things that are happening when they happen. It just feels like it’s unfathomable when it happens.

Anne (14:45):
It’s like your baseline is this particular reality, which is “He’s a good guy and he loves me and he cares our family.” And so wrapping your head around the actual reality that they just want what they want and they don’t really genuinely care about other people because they’re incapable of doing that, is really hard to wrap your head around.

What Concepts did Christine Learn at BTR.ORG?Christine (15:11):
Yeah, it is. I mean, especially being brought up as a little girl on Disney Princess videos, there is no Disney princess video that ends like this. We’re not prepared. And then as humans we’re really prepped for flaws in humanity. You’re marrying an imperfect person and especially as a believer, you’re gonna be like, Well, okay, I’m gonna give him grace on this. I’m gonna help him through it cause I’m not perfect either. And so I think as believers we have give them an extra step, extra cushion room sometimes.

Learning Boundaries to Seek Safety from Psychological AbuseAnne (15:44):
What are some of the concepts that have helped you the most to protect yourself that you’ve learned at BTR?

Christine (15:51):
I think for me it was boundaries. And my coach, Coach Denalee, really helped me with this one because even going through traditional therapy, they were trying to teach me boundaries. And I just thought, Well, I’m just not a person who can have boundaries. For some reason I can’t do it. But what I learned was the concept of boundaries outside of BTR is totally different. And so when I got to BTR and, even that little cartoon that you have where you’re like, “Putting boundaries is putting on your steel toed boots,” I finally got it. Coach Denalee helped me take it really slow and she took all the pressure off of it and she was like, “It’s okay. Boundaries are practice. If you don’t get it right, then you just do it again. Don’t put pressure on yourself. Just keep practicing boundaries.” That helped me so much when I got to BTR and they said, “Well how about you just don’t have sex if you don’t want to, and start with that boundary?” I felt liberated, like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t have to have sex if I don’t want to and I can do that, and that’s validating myself and protecting myself.” And it was really freeing.

“How Do I Put On Steel-Toed Boots For This One?”Anne (17:05):
That is wonderful cause I have worked so hard to try and teach boundaries in a way that actually is doable for victims. And one that will actually protect them because the other ways just don’t seem to do anything. And they don’t seem to protect and they’re impossible to do.

Christine (17:27):
They are. They end up feeling like false threats. I always start telling myself, “Okay, how do I put on steel-toed boots for this one? It was my visual that made the boundaries possible for everything.

The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop Can Help You Take Action to Get to SafetyAnne (17:40):
It’s a really good video to help understand the way we teach boundaries at Betrayal Trauma Recovery that helps women actually get to safety so that they can stop, or at least further separate themselves from the harm, cause there’s no way to stop the harm. The only thing you can do is separate yourself as much as you can.

(18:29):
We also have our Living Free Workshop which deals with what you actually do. So those are some things to think about as you’re thinking, how do I separate myself from the harm? So that’s really cool, Christine, to hear that that was working for you and that helped. Were there any other concepts that helped you that you felt like, “Oh, BTR teaches this in such a way that it actually helps”?

“[Psychological Abuse] Is Absolutely Soul-Crushing”Christine (19:02):
Yeah, I think the most powerful thing for me with BTR was the validation. Other forms of therapy and all the other groups I would go to, I would get the message, “You’re being too sensitive.” or “That’s a normal guy thing.” But when I would go to BTR, I could seriously get the pain validated. And it felt like having someone there who really got me. It would give me enough joy to make it through that day and kind of take away that feeling of like, am I crazy? That was so powerful for me. I don’t feel like people really understand the depth of the sorrow and pain and darkness. And for me, I very much felt like a prisoner of war. It very much felt like I was in a cold and dark and damp cell and I was crying and nobody could hear me. All of the incidents that would happen felt like my husband would like drag me out of my cell and beat me again. And the people that I related to the most were honestly other people who had gone through horrible forms of human suffering. So much peace and comfort listening to their stories, knowing that they had experienced human suffering in a painful way like I had. And I just feel like when we’re going through this, it is so dark, it is so demonic, it’s so evil. It’s absolutely soul crushing.

Anne (20:25):
It is. Now that I’m feeling so much better, I forget sometimes about how terrible it was. It doesn’t take me long to remember. I can take myself back there pretty easily cause it was so awful and it’s long and there’s no end in sight, you know?

Christine (20:40):
Right. We’re going through it.

Anne (20:41):
Yes, it feels so hopeless and awful and everything about your life is affected by it.

“Everything is Taken; You Have Nothing”Christine (20:49):
Everything is taken. You have nothing. Everything is taken from you. You lose everything. You lose your family. I lost relationships with my children for a long time because of what was going on. I would drive around in a car with him and I would see other people living life and I would feel like I was looking out a window at something I couldn’t touch anymore. You know? Other people are just happy and they’re going about their lives. And about a week ago, I went back to this same gas station where I had that incident and I realized I felt part of life again. Like I had my life back again. It was so huge to finally be able to feel joy and safety again.

Anne (21:30):
I remember feeling that exact same way when we went to an amusement park and looking at the people and they’re just walking by and feeling like they live in a different reality than I did.

Christine (21:40):
Yeah, exactly. It’s like they have no clue. Look at them, they’re so happy.

Anne (21:46):
I don’t know what planet they’re from, but it’s not the same planet that I live on.

“That’s Despair – I Know – I’ve Been There”Christine (21:50):
Yeah. But it’s also helped me as a nurse. As horrible as this is to go through, I would never want anyone to go through this. But I remember about a month ago, I heard the cry of despair. There was a patient and she had that cry and I said, “That’s despair. I know – I’ve been there. What’s going on? We need to help.” You know what I mean?

Anne (22:11):
That’s interesting.

Christine (22:11):
I feel like I’ve gotten my PhD in human suffering through this despair.

Anne (22:16):
As we laugh when you say that, we both kind of chuckle a little bit. Like, “Oh we have our PhD in despair.” It does feel a little like that. It’s not funny at all. It’s not.

Christine (22:28):
No.

“Maybe We’re Giving Our Daughters Hope For a Better Future”Anne (22:28):
All of the women who have been through it have kind of a little bit of a dark sense of humor I think. Is it?

Christine (22:32):
Yeah.

Anne (22:34):
It’s all you have.

Christine (22:35):
Yeah. I mean, it’s a major, major part of our lives. I will never forget this phase, I think this is my desert phase, in my life.

Anne (22:46):
. Yeah. Well, you are so strong and so brave.

Christine (22:49):
You know, I feel like the younger generation is starting to stand up more. I know that my daughters are standing up against abuse. I feel like maybe we have hope. Maybe there’s going to be a change from us speaking out and having a voice. Maybe we’re giving our daughters hope for a better future.

Anne (23:08):
And our sons.

Christine (23:09):
And our sons. Yes.

Our Despair May Shape Our Sons to be Good MenAnne (23:11):
My son is a, I’ll just say ‘feminist’ for lack of a better word. I’m not sure what word to use, but he’s always noticing things. In fact, I was listening to a song (I’m not sure if I’ve talked about this on the podcast before), but I was like, “Oh I love this song.” And he was like, “Mom, this is a terrible song.” “It’s misogynistic and it’s abusive and they’re objectifying women and it’s not good. You should not be listening to it.” And I said, “It’s a metaphor, it’s a metaphor” And he said, “I don’t care what it is, it doesn’t matter if it’s a metaphor or not. You should not be listening to this.”

Christine (23:45):
What a wonderful boy.

Anne (23:47):
That’s another thing that I’ve found, healing from trauma, is that I used to feel really the weight of the entire world on my shoulders. So it was hard to maybe go to a swimming pool. It was difficult to listen to the radio, or just everyday things I would get triggered so much. And now to kind of chuckle at my son and think, “Oh he’s so cute.” and, “But I like this song so I’m gonna listen to it.” Which I probably shouldn’t, by the way. I admit it , but just not feel the weight of the world on my shoulders. To be like, “I don’t have to solve the world’s problems and I don’t have to be on high alert all the time. I can enjoy this song despite its misogynistic overtones.” And which, again, I shouldn’t. But what I’m trying to say is, that’s huge progress for me.

Psychological Abuse Causes Intense Triggers in Everyday LifeChristine (24:35):
Yeah. That’s a huge freedom.

Anne (24:37):
Yeah. Years ago, there’s no way. I would’ve been like, “I can’t watch TV, I can’t do anything.” Because there are hints of this everywhere and it should alarm us and it should overwhelm us, but we still need to be able to go to the grocery store, you know? So it makes it really, really, really hard.

Christine (24:53):
I am so glad to hear that you’re in that phase cause I’m still healing and the world is still very overwhelming. Although it’s getting slightly better. I still don’t watch TV. I still don’t listen to much music. I’m so glad to hear it all comes back.

Anne (25:08):
And that’s okay too. There’s evil stuff out there. I’m not trying to say, “Oh, you’ll be able to enjoy the evil thing.” No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is not what I’m trying to say. But being able to just function is really nice.

Christine (25:24):
Yeah, definitely. I told one of my patients the other day, “Oh I don’t really watch TV, I’m not into TV.” And she started prodding. She’s like, “Well, why?” I said, “Well I’ve gone through trauma, so it’s just one of the things I lost was watching TV.” She said, “You don’t watch TV yet. That’s what I always tell all my students. You may not be able to do it now, but you can do it in the future.” So not that TV is anything grand that I need to have in my life, but…

Psychological Abuse Can Make Everyday Experiences TraumatizingAnne (25:48):
Exactly. That’s why I’m like, “Wait a minute, wait a minute.” I don’t want people to get the wrong impression. It’s not the most important thing and it’s not like it matters.

Christine (25:57):
Right.

Anne (25:58):
And also there’s just a lot of just terrible, terrible stuff that you should never watch even if you’ve never been through trauma. So that’s not the type of stuff I’m talking about.

Christine (26:07):
No. Yeah. Even before my trauma, I’ve followed Christ my whole life, and I still would monitor what I allow into my eyes and ears, you know?

Anne (26:18):
Me too. Yeah.

Christine (26:19):
It just wasn’t traumatizing before.

Anne (26:22):
. Exactly. Yeah. I don’t want to give people the impression that I’m listening to really terrible stuff. That is not the case.

Christine (26:29):
No.

Anne (26:29):
Sorry. I’m like, “Oh my word. I’m digging the hugest hole for myself right now.” Everyone’s like, “We used to like Anne, but then she said that sometimes she listens to a Katy Perry song.” Heaven forbid.

Christine (26:42):
No, it’s the difference between being able to watch TV and something comes on and you have the choice, like, “No, I don’t wanna watch that.”, and it coming on and traumatizing you and ruining the rest of your day and you can’t stop shaking. There’s a difference.

Is BTR.ORG Pro-Divorce?Anne (26:55):
For people who are hesitant to listen to BTR or maybe not take it very seriously cause they’re like, “This can’t be abuse”, or they’re just like, “No, BTR is too extreme” or “BTR is pro-divorce” or “Anne hates men”, for people who are hesitant and think, This is the wrong way to go, what would you say to them?

Christine (27:16):
I think at first I thought that maybe it was more pro-divorce too. But what I did was I would look through the podcast and see which one called out to me. And when it’s time for you to hear that podcast, it will be lifesaving to you. So just take it when you need it, take it as you need it. The Holy Spirit will really lead you to what you need to hear. And you’ll be surprised and overwhelmed at how lifesaving these podcasts can and will be.

Anne (27:43):
Yeah. I’m not necessarily pro-divorce by any stretch. I am grateful for families, but I am absolutely 100% pro-safety. And then the other issue is that after divorce, so many women are continuing to experience really intense abuse. Divorce does not solve it. It can be a good boundary. It can be a boundary that can keep you safer than other things. So many women use it as a boundary and that’s great, but it’s not necessarily the solution. And that’s why domestic violence experts who I applaud make me nervous because they think the answer is, just get divorced . And it’s like, “No, if I get divorced, I’m going to still be abused and my kids are still gonna be abused for years.” So we need to find a sustainable safety plan.

BTR.ORG Is 100% Pro-SafetyChristine (28:32):
And I found that BTR was the only 100% safe program. Everything else you’d be listening to and then a sting; it would hurt your heart. But when you listen to BTR, there’s no stings it, it’s all safe. It feels safe.

Anne (28:45):
Everyone at BTR has been through it. We’ve all known what it’s like to try and make those hard decisions, try to think about what the best thing’s gonna be. And it is not easy.

Christine (28:57):
Not easy, really hard. It’s so hard. I think the hardest thing I’ve ever been through in my life. For sure.

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastAnne (29:02):
Well, I’m so happy to get to know you more and I wish you the best on your journey to further healing.

Christine (29:09):
I just wanna say thank you so much for meeting with me. Like I said, this is so surreal for me. I’ve been listening to your voice for so many years and I just feel like God used you to keep me alive on so many nights and your kindred spirit with my heart.

Anne (29:23):
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

View Details

Mothers of teenagers in the BTR.ORG community frequently ask, “How can I help my teen avoid abusive relationships?”

Lucy is on the BTR.ORG podcast, sharing her insights as a 19-year-old, new in the dating world, with a fresh perspective and helpful insights for mothers.

Tune in and read the full transcript below for more.

Help Teens Avoid Abuse by Identifying Red FlagsIn this interview, Lucy shares her list of “red flags” that she made with the help of her mother.

You can help your teen avoid abusive relationships by having regular discussions about what red flags they can look out for in potential dating partners, and even taking it a step further by making a physical list that your teen can have in a journal or diary.

Some “Red Flags” you may want to discuss with your teen include:

• Coercion, including sexual coercion, that can include guilting, sulking, shaming, and subtly conditioning victims to participate in sexual activities.
• Manipulation, lying, and gaslighting.
• A preoccupation with their phone.
• Any degree of violence, including harming objects or animals.

Encourage Teens to Focus on Their Own GoalsTeens may find it easier to engage in healthy relationships when adults encourage them to focus on their own goals. Rather than spending time and energy seeking out dating opportunities, teens can use that time and energy to learn healthy habits and behaviors and develop a strong sense of self.

“I think it’s much safer to just live your own life. I wanna say keep your head down and focused on your own goals, but hold your head up. Focus on your own goals.”

– Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

How to Help Abused TeensIf your teenager has experienced psychological and emotional abuse and sexual coercion, then it’s time to step in and help them escape.

Where a crime has been committed, consider reporting to authorities.

Teens, like all victims of covert abuse and betrayal trauma, deserve to be validated, not blamed. Abuse is never the fault of the victim. Parents can help teen victims by:

• Helping them report crime.
• Developing a safety plan to make sure that the abuser no longer has access to them.
• Seeking professional help for the victim.
• Validating the victim’s experience.
• Reassuring the victim that they are not at fault.
• Allowing the victim to talk openly about their experience, without judgement or blame.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG, we know how difficult it can be to show up emotionally for your abused teen while also processing your own betrayal trauma. Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are available to you. Please attend a session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have Lucy on today’s episode. She is a TikTok-er. You can find Lucy at Guru Lulu on TikTok. She is 19 years old. So Lucy’s mom is really interested in betrayal trauma stuff and has been talking to her about this. And because Lucy is 19 and dating, she’s been thinking about this in relation to her mother, and so I thought it might be fun to have a fellow TikTok-er on.

(03:26):
Again, she’s at Guru Lulu and we are on TikTok as well. We don’t often have 19 year old women on the podcast, so I’m happy to have her here. But we do have a lot of women who are in relationships that are emotionally and psychologically abusive and they are concerned about their kids. So Lucy had a video go viral on TikTok about this, and so that’s why we thought, oh, this will kind of be a fun thing to talk about. So, Lucy, as you are dating, what red flags do you look for when you consider dating somebody?

Red Flags in Teen Dating RelationshipsLucy (04:07):
Yeah, I have. I have 10 written down and the first one is: He can’t hold a deep conversation.
2. He’s on his phone a lot when y’all are together, instead of interacting with you.
3. He does not let you have his phone pass code and/or freaks out when you go near his phone (because that typically means that he has something to hide). Some will say that’s a violation of his privacy, but oh my gosh, considering all the perversion, corruption, and trouble someone can get into with one click of their thumb on the internet, you better believe I’m gonna need access to your phone. If we were in the same room right now and you asked for my phone pass code, I would give it to you because I don’t think that phones were made to be these little boxes of our hidden secret worlds. And if you don’t have anything to hide, I think that you should share that.

(05:11):
4. He is not health-conscious; he does not eat well and/or exercise.
5. If the guy you’re into has issues and is claiming that he will change for you, it never works out. Move on.
6. He doesn’t respond well to you on your bad days. Does he manipulate the situation? Does he gaslight? Take note to how he reacts to your reactions.
7. His words don’t match his actions.
8. Aggressive jealousy.
9. He has no goals for himself, doesn’t believe in anything important and/or lacks healthy hobbies.
10. He’s overly dependent on you and doesn’t have other close relationships.

“I’ve Yet to Meet a Guy Who Fills All Those”Anne (06:04):
Those are really good. How have those helped you thus far?

Lucy (06:08):
Yeah, so actually I’ve never dated before . So that being said, I’ve yet to meet a guy who fills all those.

Anne (06:18):
You have not been able to implement your list yet.

Lucy (06:21):
But also I am not really looking to date right now either; I’m not on the lookout for a relationship. I’m 19, I’m pursuing my surfing and my music and all this other stuff. So in the defense of men, I’m not on the search for a relationship right now.

Anne: (6:44)
I like it.

Lucy (06:45):
Not that I don’t want that in the future, but I just don’t think that that needs to be my priority right now.

“Hold Your Head Up; Focus on Your Own Goals”Anne (06:50):
I don’t know if it ever needs to be a priority.

Lucy (06:53):
Yeah, I agree.

Anne (06:54):
And the reason I say that is because if you fill your own life with things that you love and goals that you have and someone comes along and they are kind and they’re your friend and he’s respectful and all of that, then it would happen naturally. But actually seeking it out seems a bit dangerous to me because it feels vulnerable when you’re trying to find something, when you feel like you’re lacking something. Because it’s very easy for someone to step into that place and say, “Oh. Well, I can be that for you.” They may or may not have those qualities and so it’s a vulnerable place to try and go look for something.
I think it’s much safer to just live your own life. I wanna say keep your head down and focused on your own goals, but hold your head up. Focus on your own goals. You don’t need to keep your head down or anything.

Lucy (07:49):
I absolutely agree with all that. Yeah, 100%.

Anne (07:52):
Now, knowing that you have not dated before, if that came about for you, and let’s just say you began dating, what red flags would make you end a relationship? Are those same things on your list or do you have other things?

Abusers Are Great at Hiding Red FlagsLucy (08:06):
No. The ones that I just talked about and went over are more-so ones that would make me put my guard up and maybe hold back a little bit. Things that I would just kind of look out for, but not necessarily end it right there and then, because there is different situations and scenarios. As dating progresses, what red flags would I look out for? I’ve got five that I wrote down.
1. He has addictions whether that’s alcohol addiction, pornography addiction, drug use or smoking or anything like that. Also an untreated mental illness such as bipolar or a personality disorder or something like that.

Anne (08:57):
You may not know, right? They might have an addiction or a personality disorder, or they might just be abusive and blame it on that stuff.

Lucy (09:06):
Yeah.

Anne (09:07):
So that’s something to think about. If somebody has a personality disorder or someone has an addiction, you might not find out about it for years or you may never find out about it. So that’s something to think about. Maybe you can keep that on your list, but also adding the behaviors: even if you don’t know about the addiction or the personality disorder, [for example] they lie. Stuff like that might be another thing you wanna consider.

Porn Use is a Deal Breaker For LucyLucy (09:34):
Even talking to other women who have dealt with a man who has addictions and talking with other people who do know the signs, I think is a really good thing to do as far as making sure you do see the signs of somebody who has an addiction, hearing from other people who have dealt with that.
Number two is: He does not have control over his sex drive. And culture is like, “What?! That’s impossible!”, you know what I mean? But I believe pornography is one of the most devastating things that ever hit humanity. I could go on and on about this topic alone.
Genuinely, people’s lack of self-control over their sexual urges has caused more destruction in my life than anything else, by far. So if a man watches porn or has a history of watching porn and has not recovered from that, that is a deal breaker for me because I can’t have any more destruction in my life caused by that specific thing. So that is a huge one for me.

Anne (10:50):
That is awesome.

Lucy (10:52):
It’s not popular.

Anne (10:53):
Talk about that cause you’re on TikTok and you’re a surfer, right? So you’re in your swimsuit because that’s what you wear when you’re a surfer, right? And you’re 19 and you’re super cute. So talk about what kind of push-back you get on TikTok for having that stance.

Healthy Men Have Healthy BoundariesLucy (11:12):
Honestly, not a whole lot. I haven’t posted a lot on this specifically for one reason: TikTok takes down videos that are too harsh or whatever, which is really annoying. But the video that I did post about dating and my standards, I honestly got more positive comments than negative.
3. He remains in a toxic relationship with other people such as friends, work partners or family, and if he’s close to dangerous, narcissistic, abusive people. That always ends up affecting the people that they’re close to if they’re in other toxic relationships. So unless he has set very firm boundaries that keep both him and the woman that he’s interested in safe from that toxic, abusive person, that is a deal breaker as well.

Anne (12:16):
Did your mom help you write these or are these things you just came up with? Talk about how you came up with these lists.

Lucy (12:22):
No, she didn’t help me write these, specifically, as I was in my kitchen writing them down. But her and I do have a lot of very juicy conversations about all these types of stuff. So I feel like we kind of bounce ideas off of each other. Did she help me specifically write these down? No. But, yes, she did absolutely impact my view on all this. And she did help me and give me ideas. If I missed something, she said like, “Oh, you should add this or that.”, and I was like, “Oh, you’re right.” But, no, I completely wrote these down because I have so much to say on this stuff, so it was pretty easy for me to come up with some juicy opinions.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (13:07):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us. Back to our interview.

“There’s a Difference Between a Nice Guy and a Good Guy”(13:57):
I’m 45. When I was 19, my list was like: He’s cute, he is active in my church, he wants to have a good job, and he’s not abusive. That was about it. Just general he’s-not-a-jerk kind of stuff. But trying to figure out who was a jerk and who wasn’t a jerk was more difficult because I didn’t understand gaslighting. I didn’t understand grooming. I didn’t understand manipulation and all the other stuff, so it was easy to see who was just an obvious jerk.
It was harder to see, and it’s harder for women of all ages to see (and all the women listening to this podcast are like, “Yeah.”), that grooming when they have a goal of coercive control. It’s almost impossible to really view it for what it is unless you know what you’re looking for. And also that you give it time that you observe, and don’t listen to their words. That you have enough time to observe their behaviors, and that’s what you’re talking about, so that’s awesome.

Lucy (15:12):
You know, there’s a difference between a nice guy and a good guy. and I kind of learned that a while ago. Sometimes a guy can act really nice, but there’s those other really important aspects to a good guy that make him dateable and, honestly, marriage material.

Healthy Men Don’t Prioritize “Image Management”Anne (15:30):
My sister’s husband is a really good guy. I respect him. He’s a really good dad. He’s a very good husband, but he doesn’t strike people anywhere as “nice.”

Lucy (15:44):
Yeah.

Anne (15:45):
I’ve thought about that quite a bit. His top priority is his wife and his kids, and he’s not so worried about what people at church think of him. He’s nice at his job; I’m not saying he’s a jerk, but that’s not his top priority. Image management and making sure people think he’s a good guy is not even on his radar.

Healthy Men Exhibit Healthy Behaviors Behind Closed DoorsLucy (16:07):
I love that. And I know men like that as well. I can totally resonate with what you’re saying cause I do know a handful of good men who aren’t bubbly and huggy, but they’re actually genuinely good men behind closed doors and with their wives and family.

Anne (16:21):
And for women in abusive relationships, it’s the opposite. They go out and their husband is just nice and everyone thinks he is a great guy, but behind closed doors, things don’t feel right. Things are off. And he might even be “nice” at home, but he’s lying and manipulating, so it just doesn’t feel right even if it seems nice, even if he’s not screaming and yelling or something like that.
So you had a video go viral. In that video you shared why you aren’t willing to settle for less than you deserve in a partner. Why do you think that video went viral?

What Are Modern Dating Standards?Lucy (16:58):
I think my views on dating and my standards and boundaries are pretty drastic for this day and age. A lot of people hear my standards and opinions on dating and they think I’m ridiculous, expect too much, and specifically expect too much out of boys and men. I think people are also thirsty for a new take and opinion on dating because over 50% of marriages end in divorce and that’s a scary statistic; that’s one out of two.
Clearly, we’re doing something wrong because relationships don’t always work out and it’s sad to see. So I think ultimately that video did well because even though they’re drastic, it’s a new perspective. I think deep down we all want that kind of relationship that lasts, and ultimately believe in going back to that original plan for men and women to live holy, fulfilling lives. And I think deep down all people want that.

Anne (18:02):
When you say it’s drastic and it’s different and it’s new, what is your perception of what other people your age view as their dating standards? Do they have any at all, or they just have sex? What’s your perception of other people your age, who don’t have the same standards as you, their view on things?

Choosing Sexual Self-Control Isn’t The NormLucy (18:25):
I don’t think people go into dating having very high standards and I think that sets them up for failure. I heard something once that said, if you don’t believe in anything, you’ll fall for anything, or something like that. This is such a sexualized culture and pornography, masturbation, it’s all so normalized now. So to hear somebody talk about purity, talk about self-control, it’s like, “Wait, what? That’s a thing?” . So yeah, I don’t think people think about it that much- about standards and going into it in a holy way.

Anne (19:10):
Are you religious?

Lucy (19:11):
I am, yeah.

Anne (19:13):
Christian?

Lucy (19:14):
Yeah, I’m a Christian.

Anne (19:15):
Do you feel like other Christians your age feel that way, or do they just talk the talk but they don’t actually believe it? What’s your thought about that?

How To Consciously Self-Acknowledge Red FlagsLucy (19:23):
I think that people in the Christian world, as well as secular world, are doing something wrong too, unfortunately. I think that a lot of Christians do talk the talk and not walk the walk like you said, which is really sad.

Anne (19:40):
With your discussions with your mom, and all the thinking about it that you do, and all of the research that you’ve done, what do you think young women could do to avoid becoming attached to abusive partners before they’ve had an opportunity to identify and consciously self-knowledge the red flags?

Lucy (19:58):
So culture’s gonna hate this one. My biggest piece of advice for that is be very slow to be sexually involved. Sex is such a beautiful thing and it’s also a very bonding act and even just physical affection in general, I think, is really bonding. And when you’re discerning if a man is a safe partner or not, I do not think you need that kind of attachment getting in your way.

“I Saw Some Red Flags – I Did Not Know How to Process Them”Anne (20:31):
I totally agree: taking the time to identify. Those of us who have been in abusive relationships, some of us, saw some red flags. I did not know how to process them. I wasn’t capable of saying, “Oh, this is abuse.” It was more like, “Oh, he’s grumpy and this is happening.” It’s weird. And so I attributed it to stress or I attributed it to this or that thing. I wasn’t capable of processing it correctly. Now after enough time with him, realizing, “Wait a minute. He’s still acting like this, so that must not have been the reason.” It took a long time for me to figure it out.
So many women who listen to this podcast have been married for 10, 20, 30 years. Mine was seven. My ex actually had to get arrested before I figured out what was going on. And so knowing that you may get involved in an abusive relationship, and that it’s okay…I know that sounds like a weird thing to say to somebody, but because these things are hard to process or they’re hard to understand or they’re hard to perceive, it’s okay if you find yourself in this situation.

“It’s Never Your Fault If You’re Abused”(21:42):
The abuse is not okay. I’m not trying to say it’s okay to be abused. I’m just trying to say- don’t blame yourself. Don’t feel bad.

Lucy (21:51):
Absolutely.

Anne (21:52):
Think, Oh, now I can see this. Now I can process this and now I know what to do. Now I know I just can separate myself from this type of harm and get myself to safety. So it could be psychological, emotional. It could be sexual coercion, whatever it is, but know that these things take time.
I married my ex five months after meeting him online and I’d only known him two months in person. It seemed like a dream come true and it was not. But I also know of women who dated their abusive husbands for a year or two before they got married and everything seemed okay, and then they got married and it wasn’t. So know that you could do everything you can and still end up in an abusive situation, and it’s still not your fault. It’s never your fault if you’re abused.

Lucy (22:44):
Absolutely.

Anne (22:45):
Still a hundred percent on him, right?

“I Was Lied To & Manipulated, and That Was Not My Fault”Lucy (22:47):
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. . Yeah. You’re never in the wrong for somebody else abusing you. Absolutely. These are just tools to help people hopefully avoid it. Some of these guys are just master manipulators. It’s scary, you know? And I’m not above it. I’ve been manipulated, I’ve been lied to. And sometimes you just leave a relationship feeling like, oh my gosh, how did I fall for that? How was I so blind? And in the end, you are never wrong for caring, you’re never wrong for wanting to believe the best in somebody. They broke your trust, they did you wrong. That’s on them always.

Anne (23:28):
I wanted to say that cause I got married when I was 31, so at that point I was like, “I know I’m not gonna marry an abuser.” I thought I asked all the right questions and then when it turned out that he was, I felt really stupid. I asked him about porn, I asked about all the things, and I thought I was marrying a really good guy. And then finding out that he wasn’t, I felt really dumb and I didn’t need to feel that way. I was lied to and manipulated, and that was not my fault. However, had I taken more time and not been in such a hurry, then I may have been able to see it a little bit more. So that there is something to be said.

How Can Parents Help Their Children Date Healthy Partners?Lucy (24:08):
Yeah. And that’s also why I think it’s really important to check their phone histories, to have their pass codes, to randomly check their internet access: because people lie. You cannot take the word of these people because trust is built over the span of years of them proving to you that they’re trustworthy. Even if you feel like you trust them, people are so good at manipulating and you’ve gotta be extra careful and go that extra step to make sure.

Anne (24:47):
Well, and I think that probably was always the case, right? The 50 year olds listening, the 45 year olds like me, the 70 year old women listening to this podcast also needed to know what these things were. I think it’s always been the case. Today, the thing that has exploded is their capacity for lying because of phones, because of devices. So they’re much more capable of carrying on a double life or having a secret sexual basement with pornography or affairs or something else.
It’s easier today than it ever has been in the history of time because they don’t have to slink out of the house at three o’clock in the morning to go pick up a magazine at the triple-X store. They can just access it on their phones, so that has changed.
From your perspective, is there anything you think parents should know to help their children who are dating?

Parents Can Supervise Children’s Internet ActivityLucy (25:44):
I don’t have a whole lot to say on this. As a person who’s not a parent, I don’t wanna give advice that I’m not sure is gonna work. But I will say this- if you have a child and they have a device with internet on it: a cell phone, computer, a video game of some kind, you’ve gotta have the pass codes to their devices and check them regularly. Like I said before, there is such a dangerous world on the internet and kids can get into so much trouble and be living different lives that their parents have no idea about. So you’ve got to have access to their internet and what they’re into. That’s just the way it’s gotta be.

Anne (26:37):
I’m so grateful that you’re sharing your thoughts with us and also with TikTok and that you’re living your best life. It’s exciting. I’m excited for you. I’m excited for all of the wonderful experiences and then the hard things that are gonna happen through life. But it sounds like you’ve got a really good foundation to be able to deal with anything that comes your way. Thank you.

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastLucy (27:01):
Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate that . Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.

Anne (27:08):
, if this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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You left your abusive husband, but new threatening, intimidating behaviors have cropped up. You may be wondering if you’re experiencing post-separation abuse.

Laurel’s on the podcast for the final installment of her story, answering the question: What Does Post-Separation Abuse Look Like? Tune in to the podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Post-Separation Abuse Looks Like: Discovering More Financial AbuseOften, victims discover even more financial abuse –

• Secret bank accounts
• Money spent on pornography or other secret sexual behaviors
• Withholding of money and other assets
• Withholding of financial information necessary for the divorce process

Breaking Into the House? That’s Post-Separation AbuseAbusers will often sneak into your car, garage, or home – regardless of the agreement that you have in place.

If you, like Laurel, notice items out of place or security systems having been toyed with, you may be in danger. It’s important to consult your attorney and/or law enforcement if you believe that your abuser may be coming into your home or vehicle without your permission.

Harassment, Threats, Intimidation – That’s Post-Separation AbuseAbusers may send threatening emails, have you served publicly, or try to humiliate you by making a public scene. Here’s Laurel’s experience:

“[He was] sending intimidating emails and other things, nothing that anybody could point a finger at and say, oh, this is dangerous or this is aggressive, but all the things that were done that he knew would be frightening to me that no one could necessarily put a finger on.”

Laurel, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG, we know how difficult it is to navigate post-separation abuse. You don’t need to do this alone anymore. Please attend a Group Session today and find the validation that you deserve.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. So the last three weeks, we’ve had Laurel, a member of our community on the podcast to share her story. In today’s episode, we are going to listen to the rest of her story. So if you haven’t listened to the episodes before, go back three episodes, listen to those and then join us here. In the last episode, we were talking about housework. Laurel mentioned that she has some physical limitations and that he would use those physical limitations against her rather than trying to help her. So we’ll just jump in right there.
What was his reasoning for you doing more housework when you had this condition?

Laurel (03:37):
So, because I have an immune issue, I asked him when he came in from out in the community that he please just wash his hands so that I would be exposed to less germs (“Hey, when you come in the house, can you please just wash your hands?”). I mean, lots of people do that, especially during pandemic times. This was before that, but that’s become a normal practice for a lot of people. But he believed, I’m doing the thing and I need to get this benefit that I want out of it. And the benefit that he thought he was entitled to was that I should do extra housework for him because he washed his hands.

“He Told Me My Intentions & Feelings”Anne (04:17):
Wow, right. This is so hard for me to wash my hands that this makes up for me not doing the dishes or something,

Laurel (04:24):
Yeah, it was super weird, especially near the end. He told me my intentions and feelings. So he would say to me like, “You are blaming me.” And I’d say, “No, I’m not blaming you – I’m blaming myself.” He’d say, “No, I feel blamed. So you are blaming me.” And I’d say, “I’m not blaming you.”
Or he would tell me in other situations, my intentions, my thoughts, my feelings, my internal process. And when I would tell him what my real thoughts, feelings, intentions, or internal process were, he said, “Well, when I tell you that I think or feel something and you tell me that I’m wrong, what’s that called? That’s called gaslighting. You’re gaslighting me. You’re abusing me.” So that was pretty crazy-making.
In fall of 2017, we had moved into a new house that spring and the rage attacks were getting so frequent and so intense and with less and less time between them that I felt he truly hated me by this point.

“I Was Sleeping With the Bedroom Door Locked Every Night”(05:30):
He walked around with such a rage all the time. His body was so tense. He had this look of contempt and hatred on his face almost all the time by this point. It got so bad that finally after an event when he had a rage attack on me, I said, “Do you wish that I was dead so you could have the insurance money and go live your best life?” And he just looked at me and he didn’t answer me. I stood there and he didn’t answer me and I felt sick to my stomach and I just walked away and I went upstairs and I just went into the bathroom and I started to cry. About 45 minutes or an hour later, he came upstairs and said, “No, Laurel, of course I don’t want that.” He made no attempt to comfort me, no attempt to hold me, hug me, touch me, nothing to convey any kind of love for me as his wife.
So if I had understood what I was dealing with at the time, that really should have been a clue that I needed to get out, that it was becoming unsafe. We were sleeping in separate bedrooms by then and I was sleeping with the bedroom door locked every night.

Anne (06:46):
That is so scary.

Abusers Often Mock Their VictimsLaurel (06:48):
It was terrifying. Before he left, he’d walk around the house at night proclaiming, “I’m divorcing you! I’m divorcing you!” In the last couple weeks right before he moved out, he said, “You should be glad I’m divorcing you so you won’t get abused anymore.”

Anne (07:07):
Wow.

Laurel (07:09):
Yeah, I asked my therapist about that.

Anne (07:11):
Yeah, what was that?

Laurel (07:13):
I said, “Do you think that he actually recognized that he’s abusive?” And she said, “No, I think he’s making fun of you” . So she still did not think that he actually identified that he was abusive.

Anne (07:27):
Right?

Sneaking Into the House, Secret Bank AccountsLaurel (07:28):
A couple things happened after he moved out. We had had an agreement that he was not going to come to the marital home without making arrangements in advance with me. And during the divorce discovery process, I did get confirmation of something that I suspected after he moved out. I would come home sometimes and it seemed like someone had been in the house and I thought that he was coming in when I wasn’t home and I was afraid to change the locks at the time because of the laws in my state. I thought that I could face some legal ramifications if I did that because he was an owner of the home as well. It wasn’t until I was getting ready to travel for Christmas that I actually did have someone change the locks because I didn’t want the house vacant with him coming in. So I just took the risk anyway.
But when we were doing discovery for the divorce, he withheld most of the discovery, had secret bank accounts and all the things and wouldn’t turn over discovery on them.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (08:29):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. Back to our interview.

“This Is Severe Abuse”Laurel (09:29):
One of the things I did find on the one credit card that he turned over statements for was that he had purchased another key fob for the home alarm system. So I think he was using that to disarm the house when I was away so he could get in.

Anne (09:44):
I’m so, so sorry. All of these things are awful. They’re also kind of typical of so many of the stories that I hear and they are extreme, they’re really extreme. It’s fascinating to me that abuse at this level, which is serious abuse (not that other abuse isn’t serious as well), the reconciliation people or other people would not recognize as such, which is really, really scary. I’m so, so glad that you’re willing to come share this so that people can recognize this is severe abuse.

How Did The Abuser Continue to Try to Intimidate Laurel During the Divorce Process?Laurel (10:29):
Yes. And I am grateful that I can be here to share this with other women because I am hoping that other women who hear their circumstances in what I’ve shared today, that a light bulb will go on for them, that this is abuse and to get help and get to safety.
One other thing that I wanted to add was during the divorce process, there were a number of things that he did to also intentionally terrify me. For example, he tried to have me served, but I was out of town on a work trip and according to the laws of my state, he could have just then sent it by certified mail. But instead, he sent a process server around repeatedly to embarrass me and shame me in front of my neighbors and to terrify me.
There were other things that he did during the divorce and during the process after he left as well, like sending intimidating emails and other things. Nothing that anybody could point a finger at and say, “Oh, this is dangerous.” or “This is aggressive.”, but all the things that were done that he knew would be frightening to me that no one could necessarily put a finger on.

“I Was His Emotional Punching Bag”(11:37):
It was a repeated pattern of behavior up until spring of 2019 and that’s when the stuff sort of snapped for me. I was still involved in that reconciliation industrial complex group. At the time his mother had passed away and I had, of course, during the marriage become his scapegoat. I was his emotional punching bag. Whenever anything in his life upset him that he didn’t like, he would take it out on me.
Even though we had had zero contact other than the divorce for quite some time, immediately after clearing the business of her death, he took actions to covertly aggress against me again. That was when I realized there is no amount of fasting or praying that I can do to stop this person from being abusive, and that this good guy that I thought I married wasn’t the real him. The abusive person is the real him. I spent all this time fasting and praying to try and “get back to” this man that I thought I’d married, but that was never who he really was. THIS was who he was.

Anne (13:02):
That is a very hard thing and it’s shocking, right? It’s shocking to realize, “This is who he was the whole time and I didn’t know.”

The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans – A MUST READ!Laurel (13:15):
Yes. And there were a lot of other things that were overtly abusive that did happen in the marriage as well, like screaming at me, calling me names. Those types of things. Telling me how everyone, like his family, his friends, naming certain people, say he’s so good with me; he’s so good to put up with me in all my issues, how nobody else would ever put up with me and all my issues, how lucky I am that he’s so good to me; all that type of stuff.
Patricia Evans’ book on verbal abuse is really good for anybody who thinks that they might be experiencing verbal abuse and wants to learn more about that. It’s called The Verbally Abusive Relationship, and that helped me to understand what I went through. But a lot of that stuff is more easily identifiable.

Anne (14:02):
Yeah, I recommend that book as well. It’s on our books page. I appreciate you sharing because it really does help women to understand that what they might be experiencing is extreme abuse. That’s abuse; there isn’t any other word for it. There’s no way to put a euphemism on it. That is abuse, and if someone says that it’s not, then what goal do they have? To keep you married for some reason, or do they have your safety in mind? A lot of people don’t understand abuse, so they think the worst case scenario is divorce. But the worst case scenario is you being abused. And you experienced that for more than 18 years, right? 18 married, and did you say seven before that?

How Is Laurel Doing Now?Laurel (14:52):
Yeah, we were friends for seven years before we dated and then we dated for two years before we got married. So that was nine years prior to marriage, and then there were about two years of the divorce process. A little actually closer to three if you count the last year of legal mess.

Anne (15:10):
Yeah. And he abused you through the legal system as well?

Laurel (15:14):
That is correct, yes.

Anne (15:16):
How are you doing now, because you don’t share children? Thank goodness you’re able to have a clean break. And now that the legal stuff is over?

Laurel (15:27):
It’s been very difficult; I won’t lie. I was diagnosed with PTSD from the abuse that I experienced; I had panic attacks, I had nightmares. I never had panic attacks in my life before this, and it started during the divorce process with the stuff that he used to terrify me. And so I’m still recovering from PTSD. We’ve done EMDR, which I’ve found to be very helpful. We’ve done brain spotting, which I’ve also found to be very helpful. I’ve explored some other modalities as far as managing my own emotional state and physical state cause my nervous system is very hyper-sensitive and hyper-reactive. I’m hyper-vigilant because of everything I went through. So there are some other practices that I’ve taken home that I can use when I’m feeling activated that have been helpful.

“Using My Voice Has Been Helpful to Me In My Own Healing”(16:22):
I do want to say that this was something that was important to my recovery: I never would’ve snooped in someone’s private things prior to this crazy-making experience I went through. But when my ex was preparing to move out, I did go to the journals that he occasionally kept, which I had never looked in our entire marriage. I photographed everything and I went through it with my therapist and processed through it with my therapist. It was very helpful to me to understand the level of projection and manipulation and dysfunction that was happening there. That was important to me. So that’s a tool that I use to help myself know what was real.
Since then, I am in a new home. It’s taken me a while to get settled and I’m feeling much more hopeful about my future. I’m using my voice to speak truth. For the past two years, during domestic violence awareness month, I executed a social media campaign of a topic a day regarding domestic violence. Each of the topics included extensive supplementary materials and supportive materials to get people more resources so they could get educated. I have had some people say that they have found that to be helpful. So using my voice been very helpful to me in my own healing. And for me to be able to understand what is true and what is real, that’s been very helpful to me.

Are You a Victim of Financial Abuse?Anne (17:59):
I’ve found that to be the case too. Being able to just speak my story and share and be listened to, and taken seriously and know that other women who are listening to this are nodding their heads. When you said, “I’m shaking my hands, like, ah!”, they’re doing that too as they’re listening because they have also experienced this. And so the collective validation of victims who have been through this is helpful. I’m so, so glad that you are safe now and continually becoming more and more safe over time. Now that that legal abuse is over, I’m assuming is it over?

Laurel (18:40):
It is over, yes. And I will say that one thing we did not talk about was the extensive financial abuse. A lot of which I didn’t find out about until some of the discovery process and the divorce. But that is a component for most people experiencing domestic violence.

“Divorce & Sharing Children Has Brought So Many More (Abusive) Things to Light”Anne (18:55):
It’s shocking to me how much you learn after. I want to honor all women for where they are and where they want to be. I was just shocked in my own circumstance, as it sounds like you were, by all of the things that I didn’t know. But once I went through the divorce process and was divorced, all of the things that I see now, and that are continuing in my situation because I share children with him that are so obvious to me now. What I know now, I don’t know if I ever would’ve known had I stayed married. Divorce and sharing children has brought so many more things to light that I wasn’t even aware of at the time.

Laurel (19:43):
Yes. And I had to deal with him after he left during, of course, some of the divorce process and some of the behaviors that I had seen in the marriage, I saw him executing over and over during this process. So that was very eye-opening to me as well, being out of the environment and still seeing the behaviors and being able to recognize them for what they are. Once I was out of the situation, that was also very helpful to see.

Anne (20:09):
Well, he was still trying to maintain control, still trying to control the narrative even though you were going through the divorce process.

Laurel (20:16):
Yes.

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastAnne (20:17):
Laurel, thank you so much for taking the time to share with us. Also, it sounds like you did a lot of your own processing and writing some of these examples down and really processing what happened to you. And I appreciate that you are willing to come and share that with all of us today, so thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

Laurel (20:37):
Thank you for having me. I’m grateful to share this and I hope it helps others.

Anne (20:41):
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Chances are, you’re familiar with the term “Gaslighting,” but how do abusers actually gaslight you?

Laurel is sharing real-life examples on the BTR.ORG Podcast.

Tune in and read the full transcript below for more.

Abusers Gaslight Victims by Subtly Causing Them to Doubt RealityAbusers use gaslighting to cause victims to question their own perception of reality.

One common tactic that abusers use is to covertly undermine what victims are good at, or what victims like about themselves.

In Laurel’s case, the abuser wouldn’t attend her work events or praise her art (which was both her profession and hobby). While he didn’t necessarily say disparaging things about her work, his lack of praise and involvement in her work events caused her to, over time, begin to wonder if she actually had talent. Ultimately, Laurel found herself seeking validation from others because she couldn’t decipher reality on her own:

“Because the gaslighting was so bad, I started asking a couple of other people, I said, this is what I’ve come to believe about my artistic work and I need to check in with you because you have hired me to do this and that. Is that what you think of my work?”

Laurel, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

Childhood Trauma? The Abuser Will Use It To Gaslight YouLaurel’s abuser, like many other abusers, used her past childhood trauma, to gaslight her.

“He used my childhood abuse to make me believe that I was crazy, to make me believe that I was unstable, to make me believe that I just had problems with anxiety.”

Laurel, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

When women try to communicate with the abuser and express that they feel unsafe with their husband’s abusive behaviors, the abuser will use this gaslighting tactic – shifting the focus from their own abusive behavior to the victim’s childhood. They may say things like:

• “You (the victim) are projecting your childhood trauma onto me. I’ve done nothing wrong.”
• “You need therapy or this marriage isn’t going to last.”
• “You see abuse everywhere.”
• “You hate men because of your abusive dad.”
• “Your anxiety from the abuse in your childhood makes you extra sensitive. You need help.”
• “Why didn’t you work these issues out before we got married?”
• “I’m so tired of being the scapegoat for all of your mental issues.”

Abusers Gaslight Victims With the “I Have Needs” TacticOften, abusers will gaslight victims into feeling that they aren’t contributing enough to the household, either through labor or finances. They do this because they don’t want to work and/or contribute financially, themselves.

Even when presented with logical evidence, such as spreadsheets that detail just how much work the victim is contributing the household, abusers will make nonsensical, but convincing arguments that STILL make the victim believe that she is lazy.

Toward the end of many covert-abusive relationships, many victims find themselves taking on the majority of the household tasks, childcare, and financial responsibilities in the home.

Abusers manage this level of manipulation by using the “I Have Needs” gaslighting tactic.

Their supposed “Needs” take precedence over:

• Facts (such as spreadsheets or other evidence that the victim may present to the abuser to prove that she is doing just as much if not more than the abuser)
• The rest of the family’s legitimate needs
• Medical complications such as chronic illnesses, pregnancies, and disabilities that they make a heavier workload nearly impossible for the victim.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouWhen you begin to recognize gaslighting in your relationship, life can feel impossible to navigate. Please don’t do this alone. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today and find the community that you deserve.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

If you did listen to the last two episodes where Laurel started sharing her story, go back two episodes, start. There she is back on today’s episode, and we are going to jump right in. So in your artistic endeavors and for our listeners, we are actually intentionally keeping it vague to protect her in her specific situation, just so you’re not like, what is happening? We’re intentionally keeping this vague to protect Laurel. Laurel, can you talk about how he used you and his control of your artistic projects and your ideas and things like that, and how that was also an element of the abuse?

Laurel (03:39):
So we went to school together for the same artistic pursuits. I was in one particular vein of that pursuit. He was in another, however, it was the same type of education. And then we both went on to graduate school for the same artistic field. And when we got married, I was performing some of his things and he seemed to really appreciate that. And when I had a physical issue that caused me to not be able to do that as often, suddenly he started withholding from me. So for example, I was expected to make posters for his events, announcing his events, do all this graphic design work for him and use, I have several different artistic skills. So to use that to serve him, I was also expected to not only attend the events, which I was glad to do because I wanted to support my partner, but I was also asked to work at them like an employee much of the time, which also didn’t bother me at the time, but he did not give me credit for any of the graphic design work that I did. He used a lot of my graphics work for his own things, his own artistic things. And he did not credit me on them.

The Abuser Refused to Credit Laurel For Her WorkAnne (05:08):
Did he claim they were his?

Laurel (05:09):
He just didn’t say whose they were at all and, and who did all this beautiful work for him. And then after he left I said, I would like for you to please include a credit on all of my things that I have created that you’re using. And that includes all paper copies, all digital copies. All you have to do is add a tagline with my, you know, copyright and that’s it. And he, rather than do that, just deleted everything as if I had never existed. Instead of giving me credit for my work, he had to erase me, which I found to be very telling. In addition, when we lived at home together for almost two decades, he would hear me doing my art in the home and he would not encourage me. He would not say, Hey, I really like this, or anything like that.

(06:08):
And he also would not come to my events. So where I went to all of his, I guess in a number of years, I had like 64 events and he came to three or four. I tallied it up and I attended basically all of his. So the, with all these combined messages told me that my work wasn’t worthwhile. That it wasn’t good enough because if it were, he would not only be attending, but he would be saying that it were good. And the subtle looks of lips pressed together when I’d be making my art at home. No compliments, no support. It was very clear that he disapproved and that it wasn’t good enough.

The Abuser’s Gaslighting Caused Laurel to Doubt Her AbilitiesAnne (06:56):
My guess is that you’re way better than he is.

Laurel (07:00):
I guess that’s a matter of opinion. Thank you. Well, I will say as an aside, because the gaslighting was so bad, I started asking a couple of other people, I said, this is what I’ve come to believe about my artistic work and I need to check in with you because you have hired me to do this and that. Is that what you think of my work? And one woman said to me, Laurel, would I have kept hiring you all of these years and would this organization that I represent have kept hiring you all these years if you were really that terrible? And I had to laugh cause I realized, you know what, you’re right. That’s absurd. I clearly am good enough.

“He Had to Keep Me Down to Pump Himself Up”Anne (07:49):
Yeah. But heaven forbid he let you know any bit of that because then you would might be equal. And the power there has to be the power imbalance for abuse to occur. And so he’s always gotta keep you lower.

Laurel (08:07):
You can’t see me waving my arms right now because it’s literally like you climbed into my brain and pulled those exact words out of my own thoughts. That’s exactly what it was. He needed to be the artist in the home. He needed to be the person who was thought of by everyone as the artist in our home. And he had to keep me down to pump himself up.

Anne (08:30):
I’ve thought about this a lot because it’s so, I don’t know, mind bending. It’s like they want to just mine you for resources.

Laurel (08:42):
Yes.

The Abuser is Exploiting You For “Resources”Anne (08:43):
And so they’re trying to mine you for resources and they want to exploit you and they want to have power over you. And so if you were so terrible and awful that you had nothing to give them, then they wouldn’t want to exploit you or mine you for resources. So they have to somehow live in these two worlds where what you have is worth exploiting, but they’re never gonna let you know that.

Laurel (09:09):
A hundred percent. That is exactly what happened in my marriage. And he spent a lot of times telling me before we got married how amazing I was, which is probably part of the love bombing and the grooming. But I didn’t know that at the time. Oh, I should also tell you he had this big long letter he wrote to a faculty person about those who quote unquote have it and those who quote unquote don’t have it and that he’s a person who has it and what it’s like for people who have it. And he told me I was a person who had it. So of course I was flattered. But then of course he also wrote in his letter about, well what happens when you think a person has it and then you find out that they don’t and then you’re so upset because they betrayed you and they lied to you and you thought they had it, but they didn’t. And that’s how he treated me after we got married. And as time progressed more and more and more, he was telling me over and over through his withholding and his disapproval that I had misled him. I never had it. I was just a horrible liar.

The Abuser Has to be the Authority FigureAnne (10:18):
Hmm. You tricked him into thinking that you were super artistic and you weren’t, you didn’t have that spark.

Laurel (10:26):
That’s right. What a horrible person I am .

Anne (10:28):
That’s funny because that’s something that you can’t self-assess. I mean you could have it or not have it, but it’s a lot of people who don’t have it think they do.

Laurel (10:43):
, he was convinced he had it and that he knew who had it and who didn’t. He was the authority.

Abusers Weaponize Your Past Traumas to Further Harm YouAnne (10:50):
We’ve mentioned a few times the abuse that you suffered growing up. Now that has nothing to do with his abuse of you. And at BTR there’s just nothing about a child being abused that would mean that she’s deserving of abuse as an adult or that she picked someone on purpose or that she’s some kind of magnet for abuse or anything like that. We all know someone who has suffered childhood abuse and then grown up and married someone who is awesome, right. That’s just has nothing to do with it. So that being said, abusers do like to use anything they can as a weapon, including past childhood trauma or past trauma, therapeutic modalities, spiritual stuff, scripture, you know, any of those things. So specifically for you, when we’re talking about this covert abuse, I want you to talk a little bit about how he used your past trauma as weapons to kind of hook you in and degrade you and how that was especially difficult.

The Abuser Used Physical Intimidation to Abuse LaurelLaurel (12:00):
Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing that I wanna mention is that because I also experienced physical abuse in my childhood, he used that to intimidate and control me. And how he did it was he would use the rage attacks where he would scream and curse and call me horrible names and throw things and pound on objects, you know, whether that’s a wall or a doorframe or whether it’s a steering wheel or a dashboard or whatever it was. And he would like be close to me with his fists all clenched up. Like he could just lose it at any time and I could be next at any moment. So he used that to intimidate and control me. And there were times where I said to him after the fact of course, hey, you know, this behavior really triggers my childhood abuse trauma. You know, could you not do that?

(12:56):
Let’s find some other way of communicating or managing your anger or whatever’s going on there. And instead of saying what a good partner would say, which is, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry, I’m gonna fix that, I won’t do that again and actually never do it again. He took that as a note and he would say to me, yeah, I won’t do that again. He wouldn’t actually apologize, but he would say he wouldn’t do it again. And then he would use that more and more often. So those periods of the violence accelerated over time instead of stopped. So that was one of the ways that it showed up.

“That’s What Bothers Her? I’ll Use That More.”Anne (13:35):

Swearing is particularly difficult for me. And so he would swear and I would say, please do not swear around me. Like the, I find it to be very disturbing when he, you’re swearing at someone I like, sorry, I don’t mean to call you out if you swear like, shine on people of the world, just for me, particularly in my own home, I just feel unsafe with that. Right? So especially when it’s directed at me in relation to like being angry. And so I said, this is unacceptable in my home. Like I do not want this. And it’s almost like, oh, that’s what bothers her. I’ll use that more. I don’t think he ever tried not to, like I don’t remember him ever holding back or anything. Once he knew that that was the case, it was like, oh, this will work. I will use this.

(14:26):
This will upset her, or this will push her over the edge or elicit some type of extreme response. And so I am going to use this method. I worry about that with communication with abusers, especially about kids. If people are like, these things are upsetting to the children and you might list a couple things, right? It’s upsetting when their laundry isn’t done. It’s upsetting when they’re not on time for school. You know, stuff like that. It feels like a lot of them are like, oh great, okay, I’ll make sure the laundry’s not done. I’ll make sure that I always drag my feet and I’m not on time for school. It’s almost like they take it as a a list of things for them to do because their aim is to distress or too upset or to gain control and they know that that’s a way to do it. And that’s super disturbing when you start noticing those patterns.

“He Used My Childhood Abuse to Make Me Believe That I Was Crazy”Laurel (15:18):
Yes. And I experienced those patterns as well where, you know, we would have a conversation about like, it’s really important that when you’re cleaning the basement, you don’t put the old computers on the tree lawn because someone could steal them and access our personally identifiable information. And we had a long conversation where I explained why it wasn’t okay to do and then he went ahead and did it. You know, so just like you’re describing anything that I came to him with like that he would do it more and use it as a tool. So that’s something that I noticed as well. In addition regarding, cause you brought up about other things from my childhood. He used my childhood abuse to make me believe that I was crazy, to make me believe that I was unstable, to make me believe that I just had problems with anxiety.

The Abuser Gaslit Laurel Regarding Her Desire to Be a Mother(16:10):
And there’s nothing wrong with the world that I’m living in. It’s just my anxiety when it was actually a lot of his behavior. And he also, we had agreed to have children before we got married. I’m glad now that I didn’t have children with him, but we had agreed to wait about five years and about five years into that discussion I said, Hey, I think it’s time we start talking about this. And he said, well, I have to work a day job and do my art and so I don’t wanna spend any time doing anything else. So no, we’re never having children. I’m never going to do it. And that’s why. And then when we continue talking, he turned it around and later said to me, well the real reason is actually because of your childhood abuse history, you wouldn’t be able to have children and be a good mother. You would abuse the children and you wouldn’t do anything. And I would do everything. You would be a terrible mother. So he told me I’d be a terrible mother because of my childhood abuse experience.

Anne (17:13):
I’m so sorry.

Laurel (17:15):
Thank you. That was really horrible.

Anne (17:17):
That is horrible and absolutely not true.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaLaurel (17:20):
Thank you. I think I would’ve been a great mother.

Anne (17:25):
Yes. I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

Back to our interview. Well, and didn’t also do that with housework. I mean he, he said he would have to do everything, but then he didn’t do the housework. Or if he did, he resented it.

Abusers Will Minimize Your Familial ContributionsLaurel (18:36):
Actually, funny you should mention that because that was a pattern that came up throughout our marriage where he would, in my perception, go through a period where he would become stressed out about something and he would turn to me and say, you don’t do anything. I do everything. You don’t do anything. And it became such a pattern that I finally said to him, Hey, you know, it really hurts my feelings because you don’t acknowledge all these things that I do to contribute and you don’t appreciate the work that I do. But he kept on doing it and he started doing it more and more. And so toward the end of the marriage, he actually said to me that the work that I did didn’t count because some of it I also enjoyed and therefore it was a hobby so it didn’t count.

Anne (19:23):
Oh, like cleaning the toilet, doing, it’s a, it’s a hobby for you. You, you know, I heard that too. Listeners, listen up. This is a nugget , this is a nugget for you to, they don’t think it counts, If they say you enjoy it, right? Right. You enjoy scrubbing the toilet.

Sometimes it Makes Sense to AGREE With The AbuserLaurel (19:47):
Right. So it was a hobby. So he said it doesn’t count toward the household budget of labor. And the reason that he said that was because he told me so often toward the end that I didn’t do anything and he did everything. I was like, you know what? Maybe something’s really wrong, maybe I am doing less. I’m gonna put it on a spreadsheet and I’m gonna figure it out. Like maybe I need to step it up. And what I realized was that I’m actually doing more than he was as far as like hours per week of household labor. And when I shared that with him, he said, well, what do you want a parade? I said, no , I don’t want a parade. I just want you to stop attacking me and saying I don’t do anything. And he said, okay. And I was like, oh, okay, well that’s good. And then a couple days later, that’s when he pulled the, well I thought about it and I’m, this is a hobby so it doesn’t count toward the household budget of labor. So he still did everything. Yeah. And I did nothing.

Anne (20:43):
Here’s another nugget for all of our listeners. I don’t know if this would, but I want you to consider it. I want you to think about it. When they say that, like, what do you want me to do? Throw a parade. Right? Or when they say like, you don’t care about what people think of you or you know, something, our inclination is usually to defend ourselves, right? Like of course you don’t wanna parade, so of course you’re gonna be like, no, I don’t wanna parade. Or like I, no, I do care about what people think, but I’m just not interested in wearing makeup every day. Or, you know, whatever the thing is is when they say that just to agree with them. So what do you wanna parade be like, yeah, , I do wanna parade. They’re like, you just don’t care what my mom thinks, you know, be like, I don’t, you’re right.

“How Did You Get So Wise? Good Point.”Laurel (21:33):
I love it. I think that’s a great approach. I, I wish that I had thought of it at the time. Yes I do. I want a full brass band, 76 trombones, bring it.

Anne (21:41):
. Yeah. And like, just agree with them sometimes in the moment, and I’m not saying all the time, but in those moments where the reason they’re telling you something is to manipulate you to do the opposite thing. Right. You know, you don’t care about my mom and she wants to stay here and you just say, you’re right. I don’t, I don’t care. Yep. Huh? Go. You’re so right. How did you get so wise? Good point. Yes, yes, you’re right.

Laurel (22:05):
I love that. I, I wish I’d had that tool at the time because what came next was that he was so stressed out and miserable. I thought, you know what? I’m gonna be the most supportive port partner I can be. I said, every day I said, what can I do to support you today? What can I do to support you today? And he says, well, do this household task, do that household task that were actually his tasks. So in like a several week period, I was literally doing every single thing and he was doing nothing and I wasn’t getting my own tasks done. So after like four weeks of this, I said to him, Hey, I’m starting to feel a little anxious because I’m falling behind on these things that are my responsibility because I’m doing this other stuff and I’m getting concerned that it’s not getting done. And he had a fit. He started shouting and he was yelling, see, you never cared about me. You never genuinely cared about me. You were just manipulating me. So none of this work you did counts. Yep.

Abusers Are Transactional, Not RelationalAnne (23:09):
Well, and the issue there is inside his own mind, if he’s grooming all the time, then he’s literally tallying things up. So in his head he has an actual spreadsheet. Yes. And he thinks if I do these 10 things of grooming, then I get to cash out for my goal, my intended aim, this grooming is to have this effect. Because non-abuse don’t think that way. The, it doesn’t count. Business doesn’t even make sense. It is completely nonsensical.

Laurel (23:44):
It is totally.

Anne (23:45):
Because the toilet either gets cleaned or it doesn’t, there’s no, there’s no part of that where you clean it, but it doesn’t quote unquote count. Is it clean or is it not clean?

Laurel (23:55):
Right. Oh, but if you enjoyed it, it doesn’t count .

Trying to Use Logic on the Abuser May Keep You In Their Grasp LONGERAnne (24:00):
It does count because the toilet’s still clean. They just are so nonsensical. And that I, I think that was the hardest thing for me cause I am so logical and just lately I’ve been wondering if I’m actually might be on the spectrum a little bit. I’m just so, so logical that like these types of things were just the hardest for me to, I would confront him, I would, you know, this doesn’t make sense, let me tell you all the reasons why. And it just kept me in the abuse. Because they’re never gonna say, oh yeah, that’s a good point. The toilet is clean. So I guess the thing that matters is that you clean the toilet. Good job.

Laurel (24:41):
Like several of the things you just said really resonated with me, first of all is the internal score sheet. Because he also did say that like he would do all these things, quote unquote for me that I didn’t ask for and didn’t even want. And then he would rage at me and feel entitled to do so because he had done the things which I didn’t even ask for. So that’s one thing.

“He Would Get So Resentful Whenever I Used Logic”Anne (25:03):
Well, and for him in his head he thought that was grooming and he thought it would get him something, right? Yes. So when it didn’t work, it was infuriating because it was like, well then I just, it didn’t count in his own head, right? It was all for nothing because doing the dishes just, just to do the dishes doesn’t count unless you have some other goal that you’re trying to get. Right? So if he does the dishes and it’s grooming and he doesn’t get what the aim of the dish doing is, which is maybe sex or something, then it was like, well, doing dishes was a waste.

Laurel (25:36):
Yes, a hundred percent. And I love the way you articulated that so clearly, because for me, when I was in it, it was just so confusing. And I would revert back to what you were describing that you did, which is trying to like logic it out and trying to explain things to him. And he would get so resentful whenever I use logic and get so angry because he couldn’t refute it and then he would rage and tantrum and all the other things. So yes, you’re right on.

Does Standing Up To The Abuser Actually Work?Anne (26:02):
For our listeners, so many women have talked to me and they’ve said, if only I could do what you did, Anne. If only I could have, you know, stood up for myself and told them that it was unacceptable and you know, all that stuff, then maybe things would’ve been better for me. And I always wanna say, no, no, no, no, you cannot logic them out of abusing you. I wasn’t the type to do service, for example. So had that happened in my case, and this is not better or worse, this is just different ways of dealing with abuse, I was like, heck no, I’m not doing that right. And so I would just fight him on stuff and rarely was he able to get me to do the thing that he wanted me to do that just, I was the worst, worst victim in the world.

(26:48):
I just did not, would not do it. And so a lot of women think, well, had I done that, things would’ve been better for me. And I’m, I’m like, no, because then I just ended up in an argument with him all the time, right? We were just constantly fighting and, and I would win a lot of the time because I’m logical and so I could win and then he wouldn’t get what he wanted, but then he’d just like the resentment would build up. So the only way to be safe isn’t to comply with a abuse, but it’s also not to confront it either, right? Neither of those two things work. Make your way to safety by setting boundaries. We have our Living Free Workshop that teaches women how to communicate with abusers in a way that will keep them safe. If you’re interested in that, go to our website, scroll down to the bottom, it says Join Our Community.

BTR.ORG Is Here For You(27:42):
And you can submit your email and you’ll get weekly updates about everything that’s going on at BTR, but also when we’re gonna be doing that workshop the next time. It is amazing. It’s how to not do either of those things. It’s how to not confront and also how not to comply at the same time so that you can just kind of fade from the abuse in a way that is safe. So I recommend everyone check that out cuz it’s too complex really to to like say in two minutes. And that’s not what this episode is about. But that’s a hard thing for victims to wrap their head around that like, you can’t confront it, but you also can’t comply, right? So where does that leave you? And I think most women fall into those two categories.

(28:31):
It’s, it’s very rare that someone is like, oh, I’ll just be like, okay, I’m gonna get in my car and move into an apartment, right? Most women love their husbands and they want to make it work. And so they’re either gonna try to make it work through confronting him or they’re gonna try to make it work through complying. Stay tuned for the end of Laurel’s story. She’ll be back on the podcast next week. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Have you held out hope that a pornography addiction recovery group would be the answer to your husband’s abusive behaviors?

Laurel did too – until she, like many women in the BTR.ORG community – learned that “pornography addiction” wasn’t the problem – abusive thinking was the problem. And that can’t be cured by the “Pornography Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex.” Tune in to the BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Pornography Addiction Recovery Groups Gaslight VictimsWhen pornography addiction recovery groups “treat” abusive men who secretly use pornography then gaslight their wives – well, they’re enabling gaslighting while also gaslighting the victim.

“That’s when I started to wake up about this reconciliation industrial complex as well, because they also minimized a lot of the behavior – they gaslit me.”

Laurel, BTR.ORG Community member

Intimate betrayal through pornography use is abusive in and of itself; Porn Recovery groups often refuse to use the word “abuse” in reference to this behavior.

Further, the many behaviors that accompany secret pornography use, including: sexual coercion, gaslighting, manipulation, financial abuse, etc., are psychologically, emotionally, and sexually abusive – yet are generally not recognized or addressed by the “pornography addiction recovery complex” – and in fact are often minimized and excused as “addict behavior”.

Do Pornography Addiction Recovery Groups Change Abusers?Short answer, no.

The experiences of most women in our community is that pornography addiction recovery groups enable abusive behavior and blame victims for their husbands’ abusiveness.

Laurel’s experience was, sadly, not unique. Pornography addiction recovery groups told her:

“You need to work on your spiritual health. You need to work on your emotional attractiveness, your spiritual attractiveness, your physical attractiveness. You need to never hold him accountable. You don’t wanna say anything that’s gonna upset him or else it’s your fault that he doesn’t come home.”

Laurel, BTR.ORG Community Member

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouWhether you’ve just discovered your husband’s secret pornography use, or you’ve been in 12-step for years, trying to find the peace you deserve, you’ve come to the right place.

We believe you. We love you. You’re not alone anymore.

Our Group Sessions can offer you support today. We’d love to see you in a session.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. On today’s episode, Laurel, a member of our community is sharing her story. We started with her story last week so that you can hear her entire story. If you didn’t listen to last week’s episode, listen to that first and then join us here. At the end of last week’s episode, we talked about how she first discovered her husband’s porn use. So we’re jumping in right there after this discovery. What’s the impact to your marriage at this point?

The Anger & Contempt Were Palpable During His Periods of Porn UseLaurel (03:26):
Well, the porn thing came up on and off for years, and he would go through periods where it seemed like he wasn’t using it and then he would start using it again and I’d find more stuff on the browser. Eventually I said, ‘Look, you can’t continue to use a computer that also belongs to me. You need to get your own laptop. If you need to do this from time to time, that’s not okay with me. I still have a problem with it, and it still makes me feel terrible about myself as a wife and that I’m not good enough or something, but I can’t put my own artistic work at risk. You need to have your own laptop.’
So from that point on, I didn’t see what he was doing, but what I did is notice a pattern during these periods when he would start using pornography, he would start getting very cold towards me. He would be very hostile. He had a lot of contempt. His mouth was in a tight line. Most of the time when he was around me, his body was tense. Sometimes his fists were clenched. Like he was clearly just so disgusted and just disappointed that he was in my presence and that I was his wife. There was so much anger and contempt. It was palpable for periods of time whenever he started using porn.
I love this phrase- the Pornography Addiction Recovery Industrial Complex.

How Do Abusive Men Treat Victims When Victims Have a Life Crisis?Anne (04:51):
Where does this come into play? The reconciliation? Is it a porn addiction recovery situation or through your church or therapy?

Laurel (05:13):
That actually happened after he moved out, and I want to explain a little bit about what occurred. We were married for 18 years. At that point, I had lost both of my parents very close together. I had dealt with both of their illnesses and deaths in a very short span of a few years. And during this time, while I was going through all of this, instead of being a loving, supportive husband, he was using porn. He was cheating and gaslighting me about it and blaming me. And the reconciliation industrial complex happened for me after he left and he left to go be with his mistress, who was his direct employee. I had just lost my father very shortly before; I was dealing with a nightmare of an estate situation, and I just literally couldn’t manage another loss. I couldn’t handle the absolute destruction of my entire life losing both parents, losing my childhood home, having this nightmare going on, and then losing my marriage and losing my new home that we had just bought together.

How Do Porn Recovery Organizations Harm Victims?(06:22):
It seemed unmanageable. So I got involved with this group that I found online for saving marriages, and I ended up basically getting sucked into what I would call a cult for about a year and a couple of months. My husband’s behavior though, continued to escalate during this period, and it became more and more apparent to me how dangerously abusive he was. And that’s when I started to wake up about this reconciliation industrial complex as well, because they also minimized a lot of the behavior. They gaslit me. It was a really terrible experience overall.

Anne (07:08):
Was this a Christian organization they claim to be?

Laurel (07:10):
Yes.

Anne (07:12):
And was it therapeutic or more like Biblical-centered, Christ-can-do-everything sort of thing?

The Pornography Recovery Industrial Complex Takes Advantage of Religious WomenLaurel (07:20):
Funny you should ask that. They say that they are not a faith-based organization, but they really are. A lot of the stuff that they’re preaching is very faith-based. And what’s interesting about this is this experience hooked into some of the prior gaslighting that I had been exposed to as a Christian woman telling me how I need to do and be in my marriage. And there was a particular book that I won’t mention that I found to be very damaging.

Anne (07:47):
So we have context, even though we’re not seeing the title of the book. This book is about how if you pray enough you can solve any problem essentially.

It’s Not Your Responsibility to Fix the Abuser, Even Through PrayerLaurel (07:58):
That’s the gist of it, is that wives, if you just pray enough for your husbands in the right way and you fast and you pray and you do all the things, then you can fix all his problems with his job, with his disappointment in life, with his self-esteem; with everything. Like it’s your responsibility as a wife to make things okay for him. And one of the primary ways you do that is by praying, right? And if you don’t pray, well, you still have problems. And so if you still have problems, you must not be praying, right?

Anne (08:30):
, yes. . Oh yes.

“A Manual For How to Comply With Abuse”Laurel (08:35):
Okay. And this group that I got hooked into pulled on some of that other stuff because they were, you know, saying all these things that were biblical quotes and biblical references about how we’re supposed to be in marriage. And it’s basically teaching people that they need to be doormats, that they need to put up with all of this terrible behavior because if they hold their spouse accountable or say anything to them, that they’re just going to chase that person away. And so therefore, again, the responsibility is all placed on the one partner to just figure out the puzzle of the other person’s abusiveness, and that is the cheating. That is everything else that goes along with that.

Anne (09:24):
It’s actually a manual for how to comply with abuse.

“They Say They Don’t Support Abuse in Marriage, But They Absolutely Do”Laurel (09:28):
Yes. And that’s what this group was, and it was so incredibly damaging for me, but I didn’t see it at the time. So here’s another thing that’s important, because a lot of the abuse I experienced was covert. I didn’t understand that I was in an abusive marriage. I knew that some of the rage attacks and the other things were abuse, and I knew like the name calling and things, those were abuse. But most of the abuse was covert and I didn’t know what it was.
Because he convinced me that there was something wrong with me, he spent a lot of time in the marriage telling me there was something wrong with me and I needed therapy and my history of childhood abuse made me this and made me that. I spent almost the whole marriage in therapy like you said, and yet it was still never enough. And so I was constantly pretzel-ing myself to just do and be whatever I needed to do to be enough and be right. And this reconciliation group fed into this because it capitalized on the belief that you need to do and be enough for this abusive partner. Now, they say that they don’t support abuse in marriage, but they absolutely do.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (10:43):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page, which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us. It bumps trauma, mama husband drama up in the Amazon algorithm. And even if women don’t purchase the book, it helps them find this podcast, which is free to everyone.

According to the Pornography Recovery Industrial Complex…Back to our interview.
Because to them, nothing is abuse apparently. If you’re being abused, then this does not apply to you. Like, “That’s a different situation in our group. We’re reconciling and if he’s unkind or if he lies a little bit, you just need to be safer so that he feels like he can tell the truth.”

Laurel (11:58):
Oh my gosh, yes. That’s exactly what they said!

Anne (12:01):
Right? So they’re trying to say that everything you are experiencing isn’t actual abuse: “If you were actually being abused, then this probably wouldn’t be right for you. But since you’re not, then you just need to be better.”

This is How They Blame VictimsLaurel (12:16):
You need to work on your spiritual health. You need to work on your emotional attractiveness, your spiritual attractiveness, your physical attractiveness. You need to never hold him accountable. You don’t wanna say anything that’s gonna upset him or else it’s your fault that he doesn’t come home. You know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it’s absolutely that.

Anne (12:34):
Women who aren’t being abused don’t need to go to stuff like that. That’s the crazy thing, is generally speaking, women who are in healthy marriages where they feel loved and appreciated and cherished, they’re not going to reconciliation camps.

Laurel (12:50):
Correct.

Anne (12:51):
They’re not trying to get porn addiction recovery services. They don’t know that, generally speaking, the majority of the population of women that they’re “trying to help” are abuse victims.

Pornography Recovery Groups Enable AbuseLaurel (13:03):
And these folks say, just like you said, “If you’re in an abusive marriage, we’re not talking about that. We’re not talking about you.” But actually they are enabling that very same abuse.

Anne (13:16):
I find that same trouble with real harm, right? So people will say things like, if a rape victim for example says, “I was raped.” And then they get into the details of it and they’re like, “Oh, he was your husband”, and “Oh, you didn’t scream and yell and scratch his eyes out; well then you weren’t actually raped and you saying that you were raped hurts real rape victims.”, as if there’s some real rape victim out there who has experienced it and you did not. So “you didn’t experience a real rape” when you did. It was real rape. It was real abuse. So them saying like, “Oh, well we don’t wanna call that abuse. This is just regular marriage stuff and if we do call it abuse, that’s gonna hurt real abuse victims.” In the meantime, they’re actually hurting actual abuse victims in trying to discount the abuse they’re experiencing.

“I Thought Because He Hadn’t Hit Me Yet, It Wasn’t Actual Abuse”Laurel (14:15):
Correct. And I thought because he hadn’t hit me yet, that it wasn’t actual abuse. And I was so ashamed and so gaslit. I believed that he had been this amazing, beautiful, kind, strong patient person, and that I was so messed up that I had turned him into this abusive person, that it was my fault that the real him was the him that I thought that I married, the him that I dated. That’s who I thought the real him was, and that it was because of my trauma and past, which he told me all the time it was that he was the way he was. So I never told anyone during my marriage about any of the things that went on at home, including the overt rage attacks where he would throw things, break things like stuff that was clearly abusive. I didn’t say anything to anyone until after he moved out.

“This is Abuse”(15:15):
And I told one person after he moved out, just a couple of small things, and that person said, “Oh my gosh, that’s abuse. That’s abuse.” And I thought, ‘Well, that can’t be true. That can’t be right. I can’t have been in an abusive marriage.’ And I was so confused.
I started looking stuff up and I got Lundy Bancroft’s book and I got even more confused. I called the hotline and I shared with them a few of the things that I had been through, and they said, “Oh my gosh, this is abuse. This is abuse, this is abuse.” And when I shared more things, “This is abuse. This is abuse.” And that’s when I came to understand how very abusive my marriage had been.

Safety is More Important Than ReconciliationAnne (15:59):
I wish that instead of the reconciliation stuff, instead of the porn addiction recovery stuff for sex addiction recovery or any of that, that they would just, first of all, do a big introduction to what abuse is and then stay there. don’t ever go anywhere else, right? Just stick with, “This is what abuse is, this is how it impacts you, this is how to set boundaries around it.” It’s just abuse. There’s no other way around it. There’s no way to avoid it. You can’t avoid it by calling it something else. It is just abuse. I’m so grateful that you got to that point. You mentioned that one of our videos helped you recognize covert physical abuse. Can you talk about that?

Laurel (16:50):
So for example, and also reading Lundy Bancroft’s book helped with that. I didn’t know that violence against objects was part of physical abuse. So that was one thing that I heard in that video.

What Is Covert Physical Abuse?Anne (17:03):
Was this on TikTok or on Instagram?

Laurel (17:05):
I saw it on Facebook. But I think you’d posted it to multiple platforms. So some of the things that I made notes about that happened to me that some of which were mentioned in that video were “playing”, wrestling me, grabbing me, and sometimes hurting me in his “play”, tearing my clothing, tickling me when I asked him to stop, kissing me forcefully at times so that I couldn’t breathe. And I asked him to stop having “accidents”, and I’m putting that word in quotes too, like claiming he accidentally stepped on me and it happened repeatedly or accidentally running into me. It got so bad that I started being hyper-vigilant about being aware of where his body was in space at all times, because I was constantly afraid he was going to hurt me by stepping on me or running into me or something else like that. But looking back, I noticed that he didn’t seem to have that problem with anyone else. Not in the community, not at work. He never mentioned that happening at work. I never saw it happen.

Driving Erratically is PHYSICAL ABUSEAnne (18:18):
People didn’t know him as like a klutz or clumsy or something.

Laurel (18:21):
No, I never saw him at any of the arts things running into people, so the behavior he only did with me. So that was eye-opening to me when I heard about some of that in the video. Another thing, when we were on a trip, he kept like running me off the road, so to speak, and I would say to him, Hey, you know, you’re, you’re running me into fire hydrants. You’re running him into trees, you’re running me into this stuff. Could you please leave a little more space for my body so that I could have enough space to walk? But he kept doing it. And it wasn’t until like the fifth or sixth time that I had to say, Hey, it’s still happening. Could you please leave enough space for my body that I realized it was intentional driving a car, he would wreck with me inside it.

Intentionally Getting You Sick? Abuse.(19:08):
When we would be having a disagreement in the car, he would start getting really angry and he would start accelerating and driving in a way that I thought he would wreck the car with me in it breaking and damaging my things. He also intentionally had, he admitted that he intentionally exposed me to germs for the purpose of making me sick. I have some immune issues, which he knew about before we ever got married. And I said like, if you’re sick, please don’t kiss me. If you have an intestinal illness, please don’t handle food. But he did it on purpose and lied about not feeling well or handled food anyway. And then I would be sick for weeks and he wouldn’t really feel bad except for like maybe a day or two. And he also admitted before he moved out that he was intentionally going around the house, wiping germs on the surfaces of things I had to handle for my healthcare needs for the purpose of making me sick. So he admitted to that and there were situations near the end where he was intentionally locking me out of the house despite me asking him to stop doing it. So a lot of things like that.

Why Did He Admit to Abuse?Anne (20:28):
, when you say admit, I think this is an interesting concept because they do everything with a, a goal in mind. They have an outcome that they’re going for. So when they admit something, quote unquote, I believe that it’s intentional in order to get some type of result. And in that case, it sounds like he wanted you to know he was doing that either to hurt you or to get you to kick him out or, you know, some type of goal. Is there any, do you have any idea of what his goal was in, in telling you that?

Laurel (21:06):
I didn’t at the time, but looking back on it, I believe he was trying to control me. And what he wanted was because he was cheating with his direct employee at the time. This was just after I had lost my father and I lost my mother before. And he didn’t want to be the quote unquote bad guy, I think is what was going on. So I think he wanted me to be the bad guy and to tell him that I wanted a divorce so that he wouldn’t have to feel guilty or bear any responsibility. And like you said earlier about the impression management, it was very important to him to be perceived by the community as such a good guy that I believe he was trying to force my hand so that he could say he was the victim of the whole situation.

“There Was a Strategic Reason in His Mind Why He Was Telling Me Then”Anne (21:58):
That’s what happened to me. I think he was lying about porn and then suddenly he was saying, I used porn. I used it today. And I, I thought he was using a, like I knew, right, like that he had been sober, quote unquote, for years, and then suddenly he’s using it again. I don’t think that was the case. I think he was using it the whole time. But then he, there was a strategic reason in his mind why he was telling me then. And the reason was the same thing. I think he wanted me to kick him out. Every single thing that they say, it’s important to think, what is the goal here, rather than thinking, oh, he admitted to this, so maybe he’s changing. No, think, what is his aim in doing this? What, what does he want the end result to be? When they get to the point where they want to move on, they want us to be the ones to kick them out. They don’t wanna do it cause then they look like the bad guy.

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastLaurel (22:54):
Yeah. And in addition to that, he wanted to make sure that I understood that he thought I was a piece of garbage and there were many other things that he did both before that time. And then after that time to make it clear to me that he was discarding me. He was throwing me away. I was trash. I meant nothing to him. The past 27 years, we’d known each other were meaningless. So he made that very clear over and over and over that I was trash and he was throwing me away.

Anne (23:27):
Laurel and I are gonna take a break and we will be back to continue her story next week. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. On today’s episode, we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Laurel. She spent nearly two decades constantly scrambling to please and be enough for her unpleasable and abusive husband. She had vetted her partner for nearly a decade before marriage and she believed that he was the exact opposite of her abusive upbringing. She really genuinely thought that she was getting something different. And so little did she know that she had quite literally chosen a partner who was exactly like her abusive father in the end.

(03:30):
We’re gonna talk more about that, but the other part that’s really interesting that I can’t wait to get into is that this love bombing stuff that she experienced. I know a lot of our listeners have experienced that. She did experience love bombing, and her husband progressively gaslit her into believing that she was the source of every difficulty in their relationship and that her childhood abuse actually made her inferior and damaged. He used that against her and weaponize that against her, so she spent basically the entire marriage in therapy, working on herself to be enough. He was unfaithful; he also abused alcohol and all of that seemed to fuel his contempt for her. A lot of us have that experience. So without further ado, I wanna get it straight from her. Welcome, Laurel.

What Did The Love Bombing Look Like?Laurel (04:18):
Thanks Anne.

Anne (04:20):
You’re about four years out of living with him, right?

Laurel (04:25):
That’s correct.

Anne (04:26):
So let’s go back to the beginning when you are vetting him for these years, looking for someone who’s not abusive, keeping in mind your own history of abuse from your own family. You talk about that love bombing at that time. What did that look like for you over those years?

“I Actually Did Not Know At the Beginning That I Was Looking at Love Bombing”Laurel (04:42):
I actually did not know at the beginning that I was looking at love bombing. I didn’t know what I was dealing with because I did not know anything about narcissism or any of the terms that go along with it. We were friends for seven years before we ever started dating, and he used to call me on the phone and just leave a voicemail saying, “Marry me”, and hang up and not say anything else. But because he was always asking me to marry him and I thought he was just kidding, I thought it was a joke and I didn’t take it seriously. So we continued our friendship mostly long distance for several years.
We met in college, but then went away to our various experiences after that. He would continue to leave these voicemails for me and would continue to be what I thought was a friend at the time. When we started dating, he didn’t do those things at that time. He seemed like he had become a very mature person who was extremely patient, was very sure of himself, was deep into his relationship with God and exploring his faith.

Love Bombing in the Form of “Image Management”(05:57):
He was kind outwardly, it seemed, to other people. What really struck me the most was how centered and calm and patient he seemed being able to handle adversity and how deep it seemed he was becoming in his faith. So although I experienced love bombing, I did not know that’s what it was at the time. It seemed to me that I was dealing with a person who was mature and was honest and decent. That’s what I thought I was getting into when we started dating.

Anne (06:35):
This is interesting cause it’s not the form of love bombing and flowers or extravagant dates or something like that. But what you’re also describing is the type of grooming that is focused on image management, right? To make sure that, it doesn’t seem like it, but that he’s healthy and patient and spiritual and et cetera.

Laurel (06:58):
Correct. And what I have learned about narcissism since has helped to put some of the pieces together for me so that I see that he actually does that in all of his relationships. Whether they’re professional relationships in his artistic pursuits, whether they are work relationships, community relationships; I have seen him do this same pattern with everyone.

Narcissistic Abusers Often “Love Bomb” EveryoneAnne (07:23):
Does he use different things with different people?

Laurel (07:26):
Yes.

Anne (07:27):
I’ve noticed this too. For example, if someone’s really interested in science, then he’s becoming more and more in tune with the scientific community or something. And if someone over here is more interested in being a vegan, then he’s learning more about the environment. Is he sort of like a chameleon in where he’s really growing and learning in what the other person is interested in?

Love Bombing & Mirroring the VictimLaurel (07:52):
Absolutely. And looking back, I not only see that he did that with me regarding my faith, but also in our artistic pursuits. We both majored in the same artistic field, which is how we met. And when he was in graduate school for his artistic pursuit, one of his primary professors and advisors was very faithful and was studying to become a religious leader in his community. My ex, at the time, perhaps because of that professor’s interest, became very interested in his faith. Also, I think because of my interest in faith, that was something that he mirrored back to me as values that he held.
After we got married I did see that while we did attend a marriage workshop together and we talked about our faith and prayed together more at the beginning, the deeper we got in our relationship, the more I realized that that wasn’t who he really was.

(08:58):
At the end of our relationship he actually blamed me for all the time that he had ever spent in church. He made it out to be my fault, and that he should have been at home performing his artistic pursuits instead. What he said to me was, “I did everything I was supposed to do. I prayed, I gave money, I served in the church and all these positions and God didn’t give me what I wanted.”, talking about his artistic desires. And he said, “Therefore, F God.”, and he basically abandoned his faith like God was a vending machine. I now wonder if his faith was ever genuine or if he was just mirroring.

“His Grooming Was Very Systematic”Anne (09:43):
Or even thinking he could groom God: “If I convince God that I care about him, even though I don’t, if I convince God that I’m obedient, even though I’m not, if I convince God that I’m this certain type of person, then I’m going to get these blessings. So say my church people.”

Laurel (09:59):
Correct. Yeah. That behavior is consistent throughout all of the relationships I saw him hold in jobs and the arts and clearly with me and with his faith as well.

Anne (10:14):
So his grooming was very systematic and extreme.

How Did Laurel’s Abuser “Self Assess”?Laurel (10:20):
Toward the end of the relationship when I started to get a little bit smarter that things were really off, I was starting to Google all these things. I’m starting to read “narcissism, narcissism, narcissism”, and I’m like, what’s going on here?
I found some questionnaires online for narcissistic behaviors and relationships and I stripped the title off of it. I separated the questions out and put them into an Excel spreadsheet and we both took the questionnaire. He self-assessed as very high in narcissistic behaviors and relationship. He admitted in that questionnaire that he’d even lied to people in his professional career about his successes and qualifications in order to impress them and get ahead. Which was a shock to me. I did not know that he did that. And also he lied with intent, even, on the questionnaire because there were direct questions about stealing and hiding money and other things that I later found proof that he did, that he lied about on the questionnaire. So he would’ve assessed much higher. He did assess at a problematic level and it would’ve been much higher if he told the truth about all the things I later found out.

BTR.ORG Helps You Determine Your Level of SafetyAnne (11:36):
That’s interesting cause you would think they would know how to take the test to not score highly. So it’s interesting that maybe they don’t. I don’t know.

We don’t diagnose here at BTR, right? We’re not a place that says, “Okay, come here; we’ll help you diagnose your ex.” What we do here is- women come to us and say, “These are the behaviors that I’m experiencing.” And we’re like, “Oh, that’s abusive, that’s abusive.” So regardless of the cause of the “cause”, whether they have a brain lesion or they’re a narcissist or they’re just abusive or something, we don’t ever quite know the reason. Our job here at BTR is to help get women to safety to help them start making their way to being emotionally and psychologically safe. So the reason I bring that up is, I’m not an expert in them taking tests, but that strikes me as really interesting. How did you feel about that when you got that back?

Laurel (12:34):
I was surprised by some of the things that he said that he did. Especially the one about lying to other people professionally was a big surprise to me. That’s just where I started to get a clue that things were more wrong than I thought they were.

Love Bombing & Manipulative VulnerabilityAnne (12:52):
But he wanted you to know that.

Laurel (12:54):
Yes. And that’s a very interesting point because yes, he could have lied more. He lied about a lot of the things that had to do with me specifically, but did admit some of the others and we can only speculate as to why he did that and what the motive was. And we obviously don’t know whatever issue he actually has going on. But yes, this is a pervasive pattern of behaviors.

Anne (13:19):
Absolutely. I wonder if it’s sort of a false vulnerability.

Laurel (13:25):
Hmm. That’s interesting.

Anne (13:26):
So many women will tell me, “Well he did say that he had had an affair with his previous wife.”, or “He did say that he struggled with porn in high school.” So they feel like he’s being honest because if he were lying he wouldn’t have said that. It’s sort of like you can’t know if they’re being honest unless they tell you a little bit because they have to seem a little bit vulnerable, and so they pick and choose what they want you to know. I think that’s probably what was going on there. Is this a pseudo vulnerability in order to groom some more in order to control the narrative: “Yeah, I would never lie to you, but yeah, I have lied to these other people. Everybody does that, right?”? This is the “acceptable” form of lying over here: “I’m gonna admit to that because then it will make me seem more vulnerable.”

Love Bombing & False VictimhoodLaurel (14:25):
Yes. I think that’s very likely the case. And when I look back at the things that he did admit to before we ever started dating, they were things about poor him, how this or that relationship didn’t work out and he just doesn’t have any luck with relationships, et cetera, et cetera. There was a lot of that “poor me” victimhood, but it was more like a hapless, “Oh I’m just not lucky” kind of victimhood.

Anne (14:52):
Mm-hmm rather than an outright “I was abused by my previous girlfriend” or something.

Laurel (14:59):
Correct. He did have a lot of resentment for other people who had money, wealth, status; people who had the kinds of professional successes in the arts that he wanted to have. So I did see a lot of that, but he masked the other things.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (15:18):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us.

Abusive Grooming Explained(16:08):
Back to our interview.

So you got grooming obviously while you’re dating and then you marry and you continue to have grooming episodes. The grooming periods don’t look like abuse at the time. They feel normal and good. If a hundred percent of the relationship was awful and felt terrible, women could pretty much figure out what was going on sooner rather than later. But they don’t recognize that those good times are grooming in their abuse as well. So this is happening. When do you start to see changes in how he’s treating you, and what did that look like?

Laurel (16:53):
When we were dating, he made sure to tell me all the time how he encouraged me to be myself, how it was okay to make mistakes, how it was okay to not be perfect, how I was allowed to show my vulnerabilities. But after we got married, the way that I was treated was different than that. So for example, we lived with his parents for the first few months after we were married. We lived in an extra space that they had. And I recall him coming back home from work one day where I was working on my thesis at the time and apparently I had not cleaned the room to his standards and he was very angry and very disapproving and withholding from me.
This was just within like the first month of marriage, and I remembered being surprised because it was so very different than the person that he had shown me for the past several years prior to that. That’s really my first inkling that things were not the way that they had been before we got married.

“What He Said Was Different Than What He Did”Anne (18:10):
Was your relationship mostly long distance before you got married?

Laurel (18:14):
Yes, it was. We met in college, in undergrad, and we knew each other for two years before we ended up going. I stayed to continue my undergrad and he went on for graduate school. So we were a few years apart in school.

Anne (18:28):
I think that’s interesting too because when you say it changed, this happened with my relationship as well. I actually didn’t meet him in person for five months. I knew him online and through phone calls and stuff for three months and then I knew him in person for two months before I married him. Smart. Yeah. Anyway, I realized that when I thought, “He’s changed”, it wasn’t that. It’s just that I’d never actually been around him in person a lot and that what he said was different than what he did. Is that kind of your experience too, where he’d say, “Oh yeah, it’s so important to do this”, but then when he was actually there, he didn’t act according to the way that he had talked?

“After We Got Married is When It All Changed”Laurel (19:08):
I only saw that change happen after marriage. So like you, we had a lot of telephone conversations. We wrote letters, we wrote emails, you know, cause that was a way back in the day. We didn’t have all this video and all the other things we have now. When we were dating and before we got married, he was very much walking the talk during the short periods of time that we were together. But again, this is impression management, like you said, and after we got married is when it all changed. But in addition to that, another point that you made is that absolutely not- no woman would want to stay in a marriage where it was terrible all the time. Then, you’re right, it would be become obvious to us that something is wrong way after the fact.

(20:02):
I read Lindy Bancroft’s book, Why Does He Do That? and it was very eye-opening for me. Something he says in the book is that the good periods, just like you said, are as critical to the abuse cycle as everything else. And so there were plenty of good periods where it seemed like, “Oh, we’ve turned a corner again.” “He’s not raging at me anymore.” “He’s not throwing things, he’s not breaking things, he’s not…” you know. So while there were some overt things, it was the covert stuff in between that I didn’t recognize, and the good periods help to mask that.

The Intent of Love Bombing is to Mask RealityAnne (20:34):
Well, and that’s their intent. It doesn’t only just help to mask it, it’s the intent of the grooming: to mask it. I think it is abuse. Those good periods are also abuse because it’s not genuine. The intent is to control, and the intent is to control the narrative. And that’s so heartbreaking; a stab in our hearts when we realized that those good times weren’t actually good for us, they were bad for us.

Laurel (21:06):
Yes, it was very painful to look back. And also for me, in my particular situation, it was painful for me to look back and realize that the kind of relationship that I thought I had and the love that I thought I had was not reciprocated in the way that I perceive love. So looking back, it’s painful for me to say I don’t think my husband ever loved me the way that I perceive love should be.

Anne (21:35):
And the other thing that’s hard for us to understand is that we genuinely loved them.

Laurel (21:40):
Correct.

Always Pornography – This Dude? No Exception.Anne (21:41):
It’s like a true real love, and there was no grooming on our part. We were just being ourselves. Wrapping our head around that is just, ugh, it’s the worst when it comes to pornography. When did you realize that there was a pornography issue; that he was using?

Laurel (21:57):
I did not see any evidence of any kind of issue with pornography or problems with sex. In fact, he told me that he was intentionally celibate for seven years, for one period of his life because that was important to him. So I had no idea that any of that was going on until after we were no longer living with his parents. We had moved to another state. I was working on my thesis one day and I went to go look up something on the internet. I had started to type an address and all of this stuff came up- this huge long list of addresses that started with the same character I started typing and it was all these porn sites. I had no idea until then that this was happening.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouI approached him about it because, number one, I was horrified and I felt ashamed. I was embarrassed because I felt like something about me must be wrong; that I’m not enough for you that you need to go look at porn. And we had this conversation and he was angry at me, which was interesting. But in addition to that, I was also upset because that computer held all of our professional artistic work- my thesis, his professional artistic work. And if it got infected with something from one of these porn sites, we could have lost everything.

Anne (23:19):
Laurel and I are going to pause the conversation here and continue next week, so stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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If you feel responsible for fixing your abusive husband after learning about his pornography use and abuse, then you are NOT alone. Many women feel like it’s their responsibility to keep the marriage together after it’s been broken by their husband’s choice to betray and abuse.

Dr. Natalie Jones is back on the BTR.ORG podcast talking about narcissistic abuse and what women can do to seek safety. Tune in to the free BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

The “Fix My Abusive Husband” Mindset is Caused By AbuseDr. Natalie Jones says that victims are conditioned into living in survival mode and are oppressed by the abuser into believing that its their job to fix the abuser and the marriage:

“Someone who is abused is always told that it’s their fault and that they need to fix something. And that is the mindset of when someone’s abused- that you need to fix someone else. Or if you have some answers, you can fix this person or this person can get some help.”

Dr. Natalie Jones

In short, victims feel the need to fix the abuser and save the marriage because they are conditioned to feel like it’s both their fault and their responsibility (even though it’s not).

Your Husband Can Seek Help For HimselfIt’s important to accept that abusers are perfectly capable of seeking help for themselves; if they haven’t, it’s because they don’t want to:

“There’s no reason that cognitively they can’t go get their own help, right? If they want to, they will. So if they wanna figure out what’s going on with themselves, if they wanna figure out, you know, hey, I might need some help and do, and I wanna do some work, they need to be responsible for that.”

Dr. Natalie Jones

What Can Victims Do Instead of Seeking Help for The Abuser?Understanding that it’s conditioning that causes women to feel the need to “fix” the abuser and the marriage – and that the abuser can seek help for himself, women can courageously choose to take stock of their own safety needs:

“Having your own autonomy is you figuring out what’s going on with you and what do you need in this very moment.”

Dr. Natalie Jones

BTR.ORG is here for you as you begin your journey to healing – attend a Group Session today.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have Dr. Jones back on today’s episode. If you did not listen to last week, start there. Listen to that first, and then join us here at BTR. We do not diagnose anyone. BTR was created specifically for women victims of emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion. Sexual coercion, usually in the form of someone using pornography and not informing their wife about it. And then she’s not able to give consent.

(03:29):
As women victims come to us for help and they use our services, we don’t diagnose their abusers cause a lot of the victims come in and they’ve read something on the internet and they’re like, oh, he’s a narcissist. And sure, he’s definitely acting like a narcissist or he’s got a sex addiction. And yes, he’s meeting the criteria for that. In terms of what really matters to victims is, are you safe? So instead of focusing on what’s causing these types of abusive behaviors, we focus on victim safety. Are you emotionally safe? Are you psychologically safe? Are you sexually safe? Dr. Jones and I were talking about that and we’re just gonna pick up the conversation where we left off. Can you talk about narcissistic behaviors in general? Maybe what narcissism is and how it affects victims and why narcissistic abuse happens?

“NPD and ‘Narcissist’ Are Very Different”Dr. Natalie Jones (04:25):
Yeah, so I think I should preface that by saying narcissistic or narcissist is a word that is overutilized, you know, in today’s society. So a lot of people use it to reference their partner being a jerk or their partner, not, you know, respecting their needs or their partner may be cheating or something like that. And so that’s not exactly what narcissism is. And I think it’s also important to note that I’m glad that you said that you don’t diagnose because diagnosing someone with N P D is very, very serious. And I’ve, I’ve worked with and diagnosed many people within N P D and when you take a look at narcissistic personality disorder versus what people are referring to in, you know, an out in culture these days, just like the, using the word narcissist, N P D and narcissist is very different, but what most people are talking about is a person that possesses narcissistic traits, right?

(05:31):
They’re talking about someone who is extremely manipulative. They’re talking about someone who does not have empathy. They’re talking about a person that feels entitled or doesn’t consider another person’s needs in the relationship. That’s traditionally what we’re talking about. So we’re talking about behaviors like gaslighting, coercive control, which may consist of like physical, sexual, emotional, and verbal and psychological or digital abuse, right? So we’re talking about those types of abuse just to keep it on a more simplistic level. And so those are typically what we mean when we say a person is a narcissist, right? They are abusing me in some way. They are tearing me down, they’re making me feel less than myself. They are oppressing me in some way and they’re using me for their own financial gain and security. They don’t care about my needs. And once they’re done using me, they’ve kind of, they’ve moved on to someone else or they have another person waiting in the wing.

What Are The Characteristics of Someone With NPD?(06:43):
So they’re basically talking about some traits of the personality disorder. On some occasion you may be dealing with someone who has the full-blown personality disorder, but you may be talking about someone who’s very egotistical and entitled. And that’s usually what most people are talking about, and both of them are very serious. One thing to note is a person with a true personality disorder versus what people refer to as a narcissist. Usually when someone refers to another person as being narcissistic to them, traditionally speaking, that may be just they are referring to the way that person has treated them and maybe a select few other people that they may be abusing or manipulating. And a lot of times what you’ll hear them say is, oh, that person is a narcissist to me. But out into the world they present like a totally different person. Where someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they’re gonna be that way a hundred percent of the time. They’re gonna have the, the, the same effect on everyone in the room versus a person that’s narcissistic. They may hide parts of themselves and not to say a psychopath or a sociopath can’t do that also. But again, I’m just speaking in general terms because every case is different. It person is usually speaking about interpersonal relationships and it typically in an interpersonal relationships, they do not have any stability in that.

If Your Abusive Husband Had a Mental Diagnosis, Would The Victim Be Better Off?Anne (08:15):
What would you say to a victim of abuse? I like the word victim around here because my listeners generally speaking have not survived anything yet. Like if you say like the Titanic, right? It sunk and then you survived the Titanic. In the case of listeners to my podcast, most women are still experiencing this abuse in one form or another. Now they are trying to make their way to safety, right? They’re trying to set boundaries, they’re trying to get some distance, they’re trying to figure it out. That feels better to me as a current still victim of abuse. My ex still manipulates and lies and does all the things. Thankfully I feel very safe now, but I’m still technically actually being abused. I understand people like survivor better depending on how they use it. But that being said, like a lot of women in this situation, they think if they had a diagnosis, it would make things better.

(09:16):
Maybe because then they could figure out what to do, right? They could take some steps or they could get their husband into the right type of therapy or something like that. Can you explain why that is very dangerous for victims to think that a diagnosis might make the situation better? Or even like if they had a diagnosis like NPD, like an official Narcissistic Personality Disorder diagnosis that would give them grounds for divorce, but without it you know, maybe it’s not serious enough and maybe I don’t need to separate, maybe I don’t need to be too concerned about this type of abuse. Can you explain why that’s dangerous for victims?

“That Is Someone Who Is Operating In Survival Mode”Dr. Natalie Jones (09:56):
Yeah, I mean, what do you need a diagnosis for? Like figure it out for what? And I think when you think about that question, like, like what do I need a diagnosis for like logically and rationally, what do I need that for? What is that going to get me? And usually when I encounter someone with that question or that train of thought, that is still someone who is operating in survival mode, which is another reason why I refer to it as surviving because every day that you’re being abused or you’re being brutalized or that you’re with someone who’s taking advantage of you, you are surviving. Although you may not feel like it, you still are surviving, right?

Anne (10:36):
Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

“That’s Also the Mentality of Someone Who’s Being Oppressed”Dr. Natalie Jones (10:38):
That is that mentality. Like, you know, and that’s also a mentality of someone who’s being oppressed. It’s like, what can I do to fix this situation? Because someone who is abused is always told that it’s their fault and that they need to fix something, right? And that is the mindset of when someone’s abused, that you need to fix someone else. Or if you have some answers, you can fix this person or this person can get some help or this and that and the other. You don’t need to do that if you’re moving on or you’re getting out of that relationship you need to worry about. Or even if you’re in a relationship even with that person, you still need to have your own autonomy, right? And having your own autonomy is you figuring out what’s going on with you and what do you need in this very moment, that person, there’s nothing wrong with them cognitively.

Your Abusive Husband Can Find Help For Himself – Let Him!(11:31):
So there’s no reason that cognitively they can’t go get their own help, right? If they want to, they will. Like, so if they wanna figure out what’s going on with themselves, if they wanna figure out, you know, hey, I might need some help and do, and I wanna do some work, they need to be responsible for that. Like even as a professional or someone that diagnoses people, I cannot force people to come to treatment. I cannot force people to follow treatment. That person has to be motivated and want to do that and find the answers for themselves, right? And so I think that’s the thing is people need to have their own autonomy and they need to, and this is the one place that I would encourage you to think about what do you need? What is happening to me? That answer is not going to give you anything other than, okay, maybe this is what’s going on and it can maybe educate you about what’s going on, but honestly, if you really pay attention to yourselves, you can say, you know, this person isn’t treating me very well.

It’s More Empowering to “Realize What’s Going On & Take Care of Yourself”(12:33):
This person is putting me down and other people may be helping this person abuse me or put me down or silence me. And that’s the information that I need, right? And that is saying that I don’t feel good about what’s happening here. They are hurting me and I don’t like that. And I think that is a much more empowering way to look at the situation, realize what’s going on and taking care of yourselves. But when you ask questions like, you know, is my partner a narcissist or is narcissism a mental illness? Or what can I do to help them? You are typically looking at ways to help that person and not help yourself. You’re looking at ways to fix the situation so that you could stay in it.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (13:18):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page, which also has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around to Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us.

Have You Gone Through the “Trial & Error Period of Trying to Fix Your Abusive Husband”?(14:08):
Now back to our interview. So knowing that, there’s no way that we as a victim can fix the situation because we have nothing to do with it. Right? And I like how you described “Survival.” Actually no one has described it like that to me before, that you are, you’re just surviving every day and you can’t do anything but survive or make your way to safety. There’s, those are your only two options because you doing anything to improve his treatment of you is not a possibility. It’s just not an option. But I do feel like most women, me included, me included, go through that trial and error period of trying to fix it.

Dr. Natalie Jones (15:02):
Mm-Hmm.

Anne (15:02):
Why do you think most women go through that? I will even dare I will have the audacity to say all women, although that’s probably not true. Why do you think all women try to improve things? Like they’re like, oh, well if I did this, maybe it would improve things. Why do you think they do that first before realizing, wait a minute, this isn’t working.

“Survivalistic Thinking”Dr. Natalie Jones (15:26):
Because that’s a whole premise of abuse. Being with an abusive person is told that the I’m not the problem, you’re the problem, and so therefore you need to fix it. When you’re in an abusive relationship, an abusive person is constantly projecting the blame on you in telling you that you need to do X, Y, and Z in order to be good enough or to be worthy enough or, you know, for them to even consider loving you. Right? And then they always change the goalpost. And so again, that thinking that that rote sort of systematic thinking is survivalistic thinking, that’s what you’ve been conditioned, hardwired to do and to think about is because that’s all that’s sort of hammered into you. You need to fix it or you need to do X, Y, and Z. Whether it’s, you know, academics, like your grades need to be good enough, whether it’s how you look or you need to look pretty enough or maybe you need to cook everything, clean, everything just bend over backwards every day just to sort of do all of these things and it’s still not good enough. That is that same type of thinking and find answers and seek to understand instead of realistically looking at the situation and saying, no, this is what it is. And that’s why I always encourage people, just stop that type of thinking. Look at the factual information and write it down in on paper like what are the facts? Not what can I fix or what it should look like or what do I want it to be like?

Base Your Decisions on FACTS – Not the Potential of Your Abusive HusbandAnne (16:58):
Or even what is he saying, right? Because he’s gonna be saying stuff. Don’t even write that down. Don’t, don’t include his words as facts.

Dr. Natalie Jones (17:09):
Right. Well, so, but that’s what I’m saying. Like if he’s saying something but doing something totally different, that is a fact. Like if he said, I’m gonna be at your house at Tuesday at nine o’clock, and he never showed up. He never showed up. That is a fact. But he lied and said he was gonna do something else. That is a fact. And so just sort of writing down the facts, not hoping for potential, not trying to change, not trying to, you know, mold a person into who you think they can be or based on their potential of if they just did that they could be better. You know, none of that stuff. Just what is, what are the facts?

Tips for Women of Color Who Are in an Emotionally/Psychologically Abusive MarriagesAnne (17:45):
I’m really happy that you said it’s a result of the abuse. Like why, why does every woman try that? It’s because of the abuse. Because they’re told that. And unless they know that going into it, then they’re gonna start with that. That’s really interesting. So we started talking specifically about women of color and then we veered towards just general narcissistic stuff. I could talk to you forever, by the way. Thank you so much for coming on. But of course, do you have any tips for women of color who are in an emotionally or psychologically abusive marriage and they’re trying to navigate it? Do you have anything specific for them?

Dr. Natalie Jones (18:23):
Pay attention to how you feel. A lot of times when people reach out to counseling or something like that, they’re, they’re focused on, you know, anxiety and whatever, you know, my partner’s not communicating with me. So it’s gonna be important for you to pay attention to how you’re feeling. You need someone who is very objective and who listens. Right. And who is in the trenches with you because there are some therapists that aren’t as good right? Or aren’t as qualified to suss out abuse. Because if we’re in sort of our rote thinking, we’re not thinking realistically, right? We’re not thinking realistically about how dangerous a person is. We’re just thinking that we wanna fix it. And sometimes it could be a life or death situation that you don’t need to fix. You just need to get out or otherwise the outcome isn’t going to be very good for you.

Victims of Narcissistic Abuse Can Seek Safe Support(19:14):
And that’s specifically why I say you need someone who’s very realistic, very objective, and who can tell you, Hey, listen, this person is significantly disturbed and I really need for you to pay attention to what’s going on here. Because when you’re in it, you’re not necessarily based in reality. You’re, you’re thinking in survival mode. And so you need someone who is objective in reality, focus, getting some support if you can. A lot of narcissistic abuse focuses on isolating you, but if you can, if you can get some form of support, even if it’s online reading is something that’s also helpful. There’s lots of blogs, books, and things like that that you could read about. Narcissistic abuse podcasts. Focus on those who really have a handle on it because not everyone out there understands the true concepts of it. And you have a lot of people that are just kind of talking, but they don’t really get the, the concept of it. Check out your local or national domestic violence center, including legal services and things like that. So those are tools that are available at your fingertips.

Anne (20:32):
Well, thank you so much Dr. Jones, for spending this time with us.

Dr. Natalie Jones (20:36):
I appreciate it talking to you, and it’s good to catch up.

Anne (20:39):
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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When your narcissistic husband devalues you and you find yourself asking, “My husband says he’s not attracted to me anymore – why?” it’s time to surround yourself with support, learn more about narcissistic abuse, and seek safety.

Dr. Natalie Jones from A Date With Darkness Podcast is diving into this topic with Anne on the BTR.ORG Podcast – tune in and read the full transcript below for more.

It’s NOT About You – It NEVER WasMany victims, understandably, take this form of abuse very personally, and may seek to change themselves to meet the abuser’s ever-changing standards of beauty.

This is particularly painful for BIPOC women, whose abusers attack not only temporary characteristics, like weight, but permanent characteristics, like race and culture.

But the truth is that it’s not about your skin color, size, hair color, or facial features – the abuser is simply trying to control you.

Abusers Use Criticism to Control VictimsThe abuser criticizes your physical features to control you. As long as you feel inadequate and permanently “less than”, he can maintain the illusion of “power over” you.

Why? Because when abusers condition victims to believe that they’re “too much” or “not enough”, victims focus on becoming “right” for the abuser, rather than on seeking safety from the abuser’s behaviors.

How Do I Heal From This Form of Abuse?The devastating pain that comes from this form of narcissistic abuse can feel impossible to heal from at times – the words and smirks, put-downs, and jeers can sear themselves into the memories of victims.

However, healing IS possible – but not until safety is achieved.

Narcissistic abusers are particularly skilled at making their opinions seem like facts – and that “everyone else” feels the same way that they do – when victims seek safety from the abuser, they often begin to realize that the abuser is a liar – that reality is actually the complete opposite of what the abuser claimed it to be.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG we know that healing can feel like a far-off dream – but we are here for you as you begin your journey to healing. Attend a live, daily BTR.ORG Group Session as you begin your journey to healing.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. On today’s, I have Dr. Natalie Jones. She is a licensed psychotherapist. She’s the creator of A Date with Darkness Podcast, and I have been a guest on her podcast, and so I wanted her to join us here. Dr. Jones received her Masters in clinical counseling psychology and her Doctorate in clinical psychology. Dr. Jones is specifically known for helping professional people of color heal from narcissistic abuse. Welcome, Dr. Jones.

Dr. Natalie Jones (03:28):
Thanks for having me on.

Dr. Natalie Jones Helps BIPOC Folks Heal From Narcissistic AbuseAnne (03:30):
As you’re known for helping professional people of color heal from narcissistic abuse, can you talk about why this is your specific interest?

Dr. Natalie Jones (03:39):
It started out with my graduate school dissertation, and my dissertation study was on African American women who were psychologically abused by their parents. While growing up in that study, I looked at several different elements of coercive control, and I do think that there’s different elements of narcissism in people of color versus the general types of narcissistic abuse. So for example, especially with women of color, black women in in particular, which is what I studied and what I wrote about and what I was passionate about and what I identified with is that there are certain elements of narcissistic abuse that just are not present. For example, if it was a white family, it’s just not the same. So some examples of narcissistic abuse or some elements of narcissistic abuse, which would be colorism, futurism.

What Is Colorism?Anne (04:43):
I’m actually embarrassed to say that I don’t know what colorism means. , I’m guessing if I don’t know that a lot of the audience doesn’t know as well, would you mind defining that?

Dr. Natalie Jones (04:55):
Colorism? It goes way back for years and generations, and what it is, is it’s a comparison to whiteness and how closely a person of color or a black person relates to a person that’s white that is then translated to be goodness or worthiness. So for example, if I have more white presenting features such as long straight hair, or I have light colored eyes or light colored skin, I’m perceived by certain people to be better, of, better version of a black person than someone who may be darker skinned or brown skin or who doesn’t have those types of features. And back in the day, it used to be called the paper bag test. That means folks would compare their skin color to the paper bag and if you were darker than the paper bag, you were perceived not to be as beautiful or not as worthy. So that’s something that is specific to people of color where there’s this perception of lighter skin or what traditional white features is perceived as being better.

How Does Narcissistic Abuse Present In Families of Color?Anne (06:15):
So this colorism you see at play in families of color that experience narcissistic abuse, they do, they treat their children better or people of color better when they have these white features.

Dr. Natalie Jones (06:32):
I can’t make a broad general statement for how every family, cause colorism presents differently. But traditionally speaking, if you have in the traditional narcissistic family, you have the child that is the golden child, and then you have the child that is the scapegoat child, that’s a golden child, often receives better treatment, is still a very oppressive family environment and a toxic family environment. But the golden child can do no wrong. Whereas you have the scapegoat. The scapegoat is blamed for everything, and all of the family problems are pretty much attributed to the scapegoat. So when you have colorism at play, traditionally speaking, a lighter-skinned child more often than not, is the golden child. And so therefore they receive better treatment, they receive more compliments, they’re told that they’re more beautiful, whereas the scapegoat may be the darker or the brown skin child, and they may be perceived as not as beautiful or put down or degraded more or comments made about their skin color and received just poor treatment overall.

“Their Conditions of Worth Are Based on That”(07:53):
And again, this is a very elementary school type of explanation, but I wanted to try to simplify it as best as possible. It really does get to be much more pervasive than what I’m talking about. I mean, you have people that their conditions of worth are based on that. You have people that are treated or are abused more physically and in other ways because of their skin color. So, you know, again, I won’t get, I don’t think we have enough time to get into all the different elements of it, but that’s just one way in which it, it’s very different.

Anne (08:31):
That makes me so sad to hear about that. Thank you for explaining that. I think maybe in other ethnicities or other races, I’m not aware of this, but I’m just thinking of it, maybe like the most beautiful one in the family, regardless of skin color perhaps would be treated better, maybe too, like, I don’t know.

What Is Featurism?Dr. Natalie Jones (08:55):
Yeah, so colorism is not just African American specific but it does take place in other, you know, families of color and other races and ethnicities and cultures of color as well. So I don’t wanna put that out there that it’s not on a societal level. Colorism is something in which society has grown to accept in that society also perpetuates. So what you actually see is something that is an internalized racism that’s pushed within cultures. So I think I mentioned colorism, featurism. Featurism would be comparison or breaking a person down, degrading a person based on what their body features are. So for example, if your nose is bigger or you are bigger in size or perhaps having a bigger butt, those things sort of breaking a person down based on features and degrading them based on features. Textism was another one. So again, very similar to colorism.

(10:07):
Textism is specifically where you’re talking about the types of hair that African American women have. So some hair is perceived to be, again, beautiful or better than other types of hair. And so again, you go back to qualities that are more white centered being perceived as the standard of beauty. So if your hair is longer, if your hair is straighter, then it’s automatically perceived to be much more beautiful than someone who may have coy straight hair. And again this is very simplified, because I’m just explaining the general concepts of that, but the patterns of abuse that went into attacking women and making them ashamed and just really breaking down their self-esteem and also making conditions of love or worthiness or acceptance based on these types of features.

“How Did you Find Your Way To The Professional Women of Color Healing From Narcissistic Abuse From Their Partners?”Anne (11:09):
As you started out with families of color, how did you find your way to the professional women of color healing from narcissistic abuse from their partners?

Dr. Natalie Jones (11:20):
When you have women that are abused or are oppressed by their families, by their parents, while growing up, my research show that they are much more likely to be in relationships with abusive partners. So if you grew up in an abusive environment, chances are more likely than not, then that trend will continue and it will, not only will it continue, but my research shown that the trend will continue and it will escalate, which means that typically speaking, you’ll have much more severe abuse with an intimate partner than you did in your family growing up.

Anne (12:05):
That’s really hard.

Dr. Natalie Jones (12:06):
It is. It it is really hard. Yeah.

“Their Partners… Did Not Like Women of Color – They Did Not Like Women in General”Anne (12:08):
In your research, did you see anything specific to women of color related to their partner when it came to narcissistic abuse?

Dr. Natalie Jones (12:17):
Absolutely. And this still continues to be the trend for a lot of women of color today. And it’s actually, it’s interesting because I’m actually seeing it become a trend on TikTok as well. But one of the things that I’ve noticed that came up in the research that I just talked about with my participants is their partners did not like women of color. So their partners actually preferred other types of women based on standards of beauty, which is what they’re told, but their partners, they did not like women of color. And I think overall, they did not like women in general.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (12:58):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around to Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us.

Narcissistic Abusers & Misogynistic Racism(13:48):
Back to our interview. So these narcissists married to these women of color, let’s just say married for, for ease of conversation here, knowing that they, they could be in different situations, but they were married to a woman of color, but they felt like that wasn’t good enough for them. I mean, can you explain sort of the narcissistic mindset that you would see someone who doesn’t value a woman of color who would then marry one? Like, do you see my logic? I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

Dr. Natalie Jones (14:27):
Yeah, no, I mean, you know, maybe it might be better for you to think in terms of someone who’s misogynistic, and we have a term for it called misogyny wire. So a misogynist does not like women. And the misogyny wire does not like black women. And so even though they may get with someone or may partner up with someone, basically they tear everything down about that person, or they tear everything down about that culture of that person, if that makes sense. So they hate the fact that they’re black, they hate all of their features. And so part of it is just breaking down everything that is black centered in that person’s being, and so they don’t identify with it. And it could even be with another black man, and I’m speaking again in gender terms because I’m talking about women, black women, but it, it can be with another black men that does not like anything about black women.

“Even Though They’re Together, They’re Telling You on a Daily Basis That They Hate Everything About You”(15:32):
You know? And they could be saying, oh, black women, they’re too angry, or they’re too assertive, or they’re too headstrong. And another common thing is they need to be more submissive, or they need to hold their man down and, and, you know, you know, they can’t be controlled by their man and so, or you need to be much more thin, or you need to have better hair or better presenting features to look like this. So even though they’re together and that person may lay down and have sex with you, they’re basically telling you on a daily basis that they hate everything about you and they’re breaking that part of you down. It’s the same as a typical narcissist would do. But they’re making it, again, as more black centered because they’re breaking down everything.

Pay Attention to This Red Flag 🚩And if you are ever dating someone that is making statements about a race, especially their own race, and how they hate everything about it, for me, that is a huge red flag, because that implies that a person has, they hate themselves, they hate everything about themselves. So with narcissistic abuse and African Americans, if you have, for example, if a woman is dating a black man and he’s saying, I I hate black women, or I don’t identify with those people, that is a red flag because he has a mother, he may have an aunt, a grandmother, or a sister. So if you’re making a broad statement like that, what does that say about you and how you feel about yourself and your own cultural identity?

“You’re Too Much, You’re Not Enough, You’re Too Skinny…”Anne (17:10):
Yeah. That’s very problematic for white women. So I’m white and I have a lot of white friends. That same thing happens, but it’s generally not related to race, but it’s like, you’re not, you’re not skinny enough, you’re too outspoken. And, and so I wonder, do black women think from your perspective that if they were more quiet or thinner or whatever, that it would help? Or are they not realizing that regardless of race, any woman victim of narcissistic abuse is going to experience stuff like this? It might not be race related per se, but it may be like, you’re too much, you’re not enough, you’re too, you know, you’re too skinny, you’re not, you’re not cozy enough, you know, whatever. Like, it’s just always, you are not right the way that you are regardless of race. Do you feel like that’s an extra burden for women of color to carry them?

Dr. Natalie Jones (18:15):
Absolutely.

Narcissistic Abuse Carries an Extra Burden For Women of ColorAnne (18:16):
Because at least for all of the white victims that I’ve talked with, no one’s ever brought up race in relation to it. So I’m like, oh, do they not know that they would be using this with anybody? They’re also adding an extra burden of race. But even if they were dating a white woman or someone else, they would still be doing this. They’re not gonna not do it.

Dr. Natalie Jones (18:39):
Absolutely. Most victims of abuse or survivors of abuse will spend quite a bit of time trying to change and mold themselves into being someone that is worthy, because that’s what being abused does. And if you take a step back and you look at it not only from, you know, just a micro level meaning like just your, your family and, and people that, that are around you, you know, it’s a bigger issue because it’s also on a systemic level and a societal level too. Traditionally speaking, there is a sense of oppression and there is that sort of unspoken message that whiteness is better. Right. And you know, although it becomes a sense of privilege when people can’t see that because that’s never been something that they’ve ever had to worry about. The standard of beauty. Right. And just even just taking a look through your high-end fashion magazines, what are you going to see as the standard of beauty?

Narcissistic Abusers Are Going to Attack You – No Matter How “Perfect” You Are(19:44):
When you take a look at people magazines, the most beautiful man or most beautiful people, what are you going to see? I mean, just systemically, those are the images that you see. It’s in the music. If you listen to any sort of hip hop music, again, that sort of also talks a lot about standard of beauty. It’s on reality television those messages that you see. And so absolutely it’s something that women of color experience on a day-to-day basis. But one of the things to remember is society also backs that message up, which also makes it that much more difficult to overcome those types of oppressiveness, if that makes sense.

“He’d Still Be Undermining Her In So Many Ways”Anne (20:30):
For all of my wonderful black friends out there listening, I wanna say, like, if you’ve listened to this podcast for a long time, you’ve heard women from all different races, religions, you know, areas of the planet, and all of us are experiencing narcissistic abuse in ways that like, we are not enough or we’re too much. One of those things we’re, we’re never just right. With narcissistic abuse. And so knowing that that’s just an extra layer of burden, but that it’s not about that because this abuser, they’re not gonna be happy with anything. So even if he was dating a woman who he deemed as quote unquote perfect, you know, she had the type of nose that he said was perfect and she had the type of skin killer that he said was attractive, he’d still be undermining her in so many ways. And also he might be attacking the way she looks.

Support the BTR.ORG Podcast(21:29):
He might be undermining her. There is no way to win. There’s nothing that any woman could do that would stop him because it’s a power over situation. It’s not about anything else other than him maintaining power over and trying to put her down in any way he can. Dr. Jones and I are going to pause the conversation now, but we’re gonna continue next week. So please stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

View Details

When you’re on the precipice, asking yourself, “should I stay or should I go?” after betrayal and abuse, it can be helpful to ask yourself questions that will guide you to safety.

Claire is on the podcast, finishing her four-part interview with Anne. Tune in and read the full transcript below.

Do I Have to Babysit My Husband?Ask yourself: Am I my husband’s babysitter? Healthy, mature, adult men do not require babysitters – in fact, they understand the entitled, controlling, and misogynistic attitudes that fuel abusive men who treat their wives like babysitters.

You may be your husband’s babysitter, if you:* Have to check computers, phones, search histories, phone histories, bank transactions for signs of betrayal because he isn’t honest with you. * Have to bail him out of legal, work, or other situations because of his inappropriate and abusive behaviors. * Have to prod, encourage, beg, or bribe him to do basic, decent human behaviors. * Endure his sulking, coercion, manipulation, and other forms of abuse when he doesn’t get his way.

If I Were a Billionaire, Would I Stay With My Husband?The fear of financial insecurity can keep many women from setting safety boundaries, including separation and divorce.

Ask yourself honestly: If I were a billionaire, would I stay with my husband?Financial insecurity is completely normal – especially if you’ve experienced financial abuse. However, consider exploring some of our resources here at BTR.ORG that can help you make decisions regarding your safety based from a place of confidence and reality rather than fear and insecurity, including:

• The BTR.ORG Workshops
• Our daily, live Group Sessions
• The BTR.ORG Books Page
• Individual Sessions with the BTR.ORG Coaches
• The BTR.ORG Podcast

Do I Have to Educate My Husband About Basic Human Decency?Many victims are conditioned to accept this as just a part of life – having to educate their husbands on basic human decency.

Things like:

• Don’t cheat on your wife and expose her to STIs.
• Don’t view pornography where children can be exposed to it.
• Don’t lie.
• Don’t punch walls/destroy property/yell in other people’s faces.

These are basic, decent human behaviors. It’s sad that grown men choose not to abide by them.

But guess what? He already knows.And he chooses not to live like a decent human being. It is not your purpose on this planet to teach a grown, adult, fully-mature man simple, basic human behaviors like, “Don’t lie.”

If he wanted to be a basic, decent human being, he would.

Asking Yourself, “Should I Stay or Should I Go?”BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG we know how difficult it can be to ask yourself these hard questions, and even harder to answer them honestly.

If you’re on that precipice, asking yourself, “Should I stay or should I go?” then please attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today and find the validation and compassion that you deserve as you make your way to safety. We believe you. We love you.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. Claire and I are back on today’s episode. If you have not heard the first three parts of this conversation, go back three weeks. Start there and then join us here. Now, last week I talked about editing out a bunch of stuff. For her safety, it was really important to edit it out and so the conversation ended up seeming really intense cuz you guys don’t know a lot of the background information. That’s the same situation with this episode. We’ve edited out a lot for her safety. When I say get to safety and then observed from a safe distance, I’m not necessarily talking about divorce. What I am talking about is getting to a place where you’re separated from the harm so that you can take a breather, you can reset, get outta that fog of abuse and understand what’s really going on. So that’s what I’m talking about here.

Enroll in Our BTR.ORG Workshops TODAY! (03:52):
We have a bunch of workshops to help women really understand how to do this in strategic ways. It starts with our BTR.ORG Strategy Workshop and we recommend that they’re taken in a certain order. So you can go to our workshops at btr.org/workshops and check those out. This episode starts with the end of last week’s conversation where I’m talking about perhaps different prayer strategies for women of faith. One of them being knowing that God does not want us to be abused if we feel like our situation is impossible. And this woman’s, if you knew the details which we have edited out and it you knew kind of exactly what was going on, you would understand how impossible her situation seems. And so laying it out and saying, considering that this is an impossible situation but you are God and you can do the impossible, what would you like me to do? Instead of thinking about like is he gonna change, it’s not gonna change. Be like, okay God, where are my tools? I’m gonna now build this boat. You have told me that I am a beloved daughter, that you love me and that you don’t want me to be abused.

God Does NOT Want You To Be Abused (05:45):
Thank you. I appreciate it. Now where are the tools I now know about abuse. Thank you. You parted the sea. I appreciate that. Thank you. I would like to walk across, now consider there’s a scripture that says consider the armies. It’s like the Israeli something to do with Israelites in the Old Testament. I’m gonna completely butcher this. My scriptorial friend Sarah McDougal will be like, why did you even try that is so bad. But anyway, they’re like, consider these armies, they’re all powerful and they’ve got all these like weapons and resources and stuff and we don’t have anything but we want to do what’s right. God, like what do you want us to do? That type of a prayer. Like consider his abuse. Consider that I am your daughter, that you love me, that you care about me and you don’t want me to be abused and you don’t want my kids living in a home where their dad is abusive to me and is a like not a good person. Like where are the tools? I wonder if you consider praying like that for a minute.

Claire (06:49):
Yeah.

Do You Believe You Can Deliver Yourself From Abuse? Anne (06:50):
How you would feel. Because I strongly believe that like even though your situation by the way frankly seems impossible, but with God all things are possible. Like when you told me that, I was like, oh crap, there’s no way she’s getting out. And then I was like, like that’s what I thought in my head. And then guess what I thought then I was like, wait a minute. No, no. The only thing that is holding her back is her belief that she can’t do it.

Claire (07:22):
Hmm.

Anne (07:24):
And if I were you, I would think the same thing. I’m sorry. I would, I would be like, this is impossible. There’s no way I can do this.

Claire (07:31):
Yeah.

Anne (07:33):
But I do believe that with God all things are possible. And it might be just through your strategic sort of communication and being able to live in the same house. You know? I don’t know what the answer is. I’m not saying what I do, but like just think God consider the situation and what are the tools? Where are the tools? What do you want me to do?

“If You Were a Billionaire, You Would Not Want to Be Married To Him…” Claire (07:52):
No, I really, I really like that. I think that’s beautiful. Focusing on me getting to a healthy place. Cause I do feel like my focus has been on like when is he gonna get healthy all the way? Like get healthy all the way, you know, then everything will be okay.

Anne (08:06):
I mean if you were a billionaire, you would not wanna be married to him. He’s not an appropriate person to be married to.

Claire (08:14):
Hmm.

Anne (08:18):
He’s so that, that like answers your question and because God is like God is the way I, well I don’t know, but I mean that’s how I feel.

Claire (08:29):

Do You Have to Manage Your Grown Up Husband? Anne (08:30):
I could be totally full of crap.

Claire (08:30):
Well it is possible that he, that God could help him mature. But I feel like I know my focus needs to be on, on me getting to a healthy place. And I do think that’s more what I should be praying about and focusing on.

Anne (08:46):
Even God can’t change his heart if he wanted to be a healthy person. I mean, it’s ridiculous if you have to like manage him to get him to be just like a semi-decent person. Like no, he’s not doing it on his own. If he was going to, he would’ve done it already.

Claire (09:06):
Yeah. That’s a really good point. I I feel like yeah, if you were mature, if he cared about growing.

If He Wanted To, He ALREADY WOULD HAVE. Anne (09:16):
If he even cared about you.

Claire (09:18):
Well it is possible though because he, he has been lying to himself so much that and telling himself everything’s okay and I’m a good guy. And because I do feel like the source of it is like the whole entitlement belief. And so if he does actually choose to change that then –

Anne (09:39):
And he could.

Claire (09:40):
Yeah. But I, I like what you’re saying that it’s, I need to be more observant and less scripting .

He ALREADY Knows Everything He Needs to KnowAnne (09:49):
He knows everything he needs to know.

Claire (09:51):
Yeah.

Anne (09:53):
He doesn’t need to know anything else. If he chooses to actually care about you, which he should have chosen before, you don’t know if he’s actually chosen that or if he’s grooming you, you just don’t know.

Holding On To “Hopium” Claire (10:05):
I have thought it’s, it’s really sad that you don’t choose to try to mature until somebody leaves. That seems I do think it’s possible. That’s one of the first things that I like. It was kind of the Lundy Bancroft moment for me where it’s like your eyes are opening. Cuz I didn’t really hadn’t heard anything. Like I was like, okay, this is the pattern, but I couldn’t see anything and so she said that, she said the same thing you’re saying, but she said it like maybe 2% will change and she did just say, just get out because they’re not gonna change. But her husband did change but it took two years. And so even though her husband changed, she did also say it like the odds are they’re not going to so just get out. But, but there’s, there is a possibility but it’s really small is I guess where I’m at.

“Get to Safety Now And Observe From a Safe Distance” Anne (10:57):
And I’m actually not saying just get out. That’s not what I’ve said. That might be the impression that you’re getting. What I am saying is get to safety now. And observe from a safe distance rather than being like, oh, I’m gonna let the fire touch me. Yeah. And be like, I’m not getting burned. Cuz I said to the fire, you burnt me.

Claire (11:17):
I feel safe because I, I maybe cuz our therapist is so like, he’s not allowed to touch me. I don’t have to do anything with him that I don’t want to, I don’t have to go on a date night. I don’t have to do anything. And the focus is on like me saying like figuring out what I want to do. So I feel safe. I am focused on the relationship, like what you said and focused on his behavior.

Anne (11:41):
You are not safe because the reason that you feel safe is because he’s being managed by a therapist.

Does Your Husband Have to be Managed By A Therapist? Claire (11:49):
Mm.

Anne (11:50):
Which does not mean that you’re safe. It just means that he is the type of person that has to be managed by a therapist at that level.

Claire (11:58):
Yeah.

Anne (11:59):
Which is not a safe situation.

What Is Safety? Claire (12:02):
But except for I still feel like even if I’m able to know what I want to do and I’m able to put boundaries down. And I say you like I’m done and I walk away and he doesn’t handle it well and then it’s over. Then I’m still safe. Even if he’s not managed by a therapist because she’s helped me, she’s helped me say no.

Anne (12:24):
the problem is the safety issue is ongoing. So like right now you feel safe, but let’s say he is getting better than you would actually be getting more safe over time. Right. So you’d be getting more and more safe because the harm is reducing and that is totally a possibility and it and could be happening. Then there’s the other scenario where he’s grooming and is not safe at all. Yeah. And it’s the management. And in that case you actually do not become more safe with divorce, he’s just as dangerous and he becomes actually more dangerous. It’s just that you get better with skills and stuff and boundaries of separating yourself from the harm, but he’ll still continue to be on fire. Right.

What’s The Point of Divorce, From A Safety Standpoint? Claire (13:03):
Well, so then what’s the point then? What would be the point of divorcing? Like what you said, if I’m able to say within, you know, if I’m never gonna be able to have boundaries –

Anne (13:13):
The first scenario was he’s actually is improving and getting to be more safe. Okay. The second scenario is that he’s not safe at all. He’s just grooming,

Claire (13:23):
But, and then you’re saying I get a divorce and then I’m still not safe. So that really sucks. .

Divorce Puts Proximity Between You & The Abuser Anne (13:30):
But the but the thing is he’s, you’re either getting burned every day.

Claire (13:35):
Mm.

Anne (13:36):
Or you’re getting burned way less and like the second they get outta the house, it’s really weird. It feels so different. It is like, like I did not realize this was, I mean it is a huge revelation. So having like an actual safe space is huge. So I always recommend an actual house where they get out. Like do not make the decision without them being out because then you’ll never, you’ll never get of the fog. So if he’s actually out of the house, and then you’ll be able to think more clearly and decide, oh, I actually do want him back in the house. Right. Or you’ll be like, oh, what, oh my, this is so different.

This is Why Physical Proximity is a MUSTClaire (14:16):
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. Because it should be where he’s healthy enough to a point where I’m choosing to reengage based on what I’m seeing, based on what I’m observing. Not that I’m engaged in it and then I’m being lulled into it. Whereas if he’s out of the house, then it’s more like, okay, I see that he’s not off the deep end or whatever.

Anne (14:36):
And so here’s a really good example that may or may not help you. There was a woman who had filed for divorce. Everything was ready to go. They were having a hearing and suddenly outta the blue. The soon-to-be ex who hadn’t talked to her for years actually was like, Hey, can we just talk? All right. And then he started being all great and they, and he had all these reasons for being gone and all this stuff was going down. Okay. So she was like, I think this is good. I I, I don’t know. And I’m like, that hearing is coming up. Like he wants you to not have that hearing. And she was like, no, he seems amazing. He seems like he wants to come back in. And I said, well, if he’s really changed and if he’s amazing and if he’s like, awesome, then what you wanna say to him is, Hey, after everything we’ve been through, let’s just get divorced and then we can date.

“Then You Have Your Answer.” Claire (15:26):
Yeah. ,

Anne (15:28):
Because I, we haven’t lived together in years. We haven’t even talked for two years. So I hear you that you wanna be with me. I hear you. That we wanna be together. I actually would like that too. That would be really cool. But because this divorce has been going and we’ve got this hearing, let’s go ahead and go through with it. Let’s go ahead and get divorced. We can just split everything up and then I would love to go on a date with you if you wanna ask me out. And in fact you can ask me out now. As long as we’re proceeding with the divorce, I don’t mind updating you while we’re divorcing, but the divorce is still happening. And guess what she said? She’s like, I, I could never do that. And I said, why? And she’s like, because like the second I say that he’s gonna be terrible again. Okay. And I’m like, then you know your answer. Right?

Claire (16:14):
Yeah.

How Would a Healthy Partner Respond? Anne (16:14):
Like, you know your answer. So, so that like, think about that like think about like if you kindly asked him, Hey, I know we’ve been working on me having more space and you know what? I think the thing I really need is for you to get your own apartment. I really hope we don’t have to get divorced. But that would help me understand. And then if you want to see me or talk to me, you could text me –

Claire (16:37):
Ask me.

Anne (16:38):
Yeah. Yeah. And that would be very helpful. And then I think I could make more progress.

Claire (16:43):
Yeah. That is really interesting.

“He’s Not Gonna Like That, Because He’ll Lose Control” Anne (16:46):
And, and that way I can, I can feel more safe in the home and I can feel like I have my own space and that will really help me. And he, my guess is he’s not gonna like that because he’ll lose control.

Claire (16:57):
Yeah. Hmm. I actually think, I actually think that he will, I think he’ll react the way he reacted when she, when I told him, she said it was gonna be several more months at least. He initially got mad and looked like he’d been like, he kind of staggered , but then he was like, that’s okay, that’s okay. Like . Mm-Hmm. . So I think that’s what would happen. But I’m – That’s it. That’s a very, that’s a very interesting experiment.

Anne (17:25):
If he’s like, how long, how long are we gonna have to be in an apartment? Just say, let’s do a minimum a year. And if you wouldn’t mind, let’s just go back into dating mode. Let’s just date for a year. Be like, let’s just go back into dating mode. You can ask me on a date. I can say yes or no. You can see if you wanna talk to me, I can say yes or no. I’ll just feel like I have more of a choice in this situation.

Claire (17:50):
Okay. You’re right. I feel like, yeah, I’m terrified. .

Anne (17:54):
Like do you think if you did that he’d be gone?

“I’m Afraid He Would Give Up” Claire (17:57):
Yeah. I don’t think he would, I don’t think he would tantrum, but I’m, I don’t know what he would do actually. But I’m afraid that he would give up and I don’t think he would hurt me, but I, I’m afraid he would just be completely done. Yeah. I’m afraid he would give up.

Anne (18:12):
Okay. So let’s talk about that. Give up for just a second. If you’re afraid that without your intervention he would give up, that is the most giant red flag of the year.

Claire (18:21):
Because a year – I think he would be like, a year. Like that’s so long.

Anne (18:24):
Logically speaking be like, okay fine, we can get divorced then and you can go date someone else for a year. Go for it. You don’t share kids with her. Would you rather do that with a new person or with me?

You Don’t Need to Teach or Explain Things to Him – HE ALREADY KNOWSClaire (18:35):
Yeah. But I shouldn’t argue that with him. Right?

Anne (18:37):
No, but in your head, in your own head. If I’m 45 and I can think that like through that pretty clearly, pretty quickly. Like wait a minute, like spending a year to get my family back.

Claire (18:47):
Yeah. And I don’t know what he would do, but that’s, I guess that’s my reaction because I know he’s been hyperventilating about it even being like possibly six months that he’s been like, oh my gosh. So –

Anne (18:59):
Well and he’s still been in the house so he hasn’t actually had any real consequences. So. Well what I mean is he’s still able to like have influence over you. He’s still able to go in and gaslight you every day. You are saying that without you he wouldn’t do it is like the most giant red flag there is.

“If He Were Going to Do It, He Would Be Doing it Already” Claire (19:18):
And isn’t that true of, of all of these guys that they’re, they weren’t choosing to mature on their own.

Anne (19:24):
Yeah. That’s the problem. That’s what I’m saying. They have to choose to do it on their own or they’re not ever gonna be appropriate people to be married to ever. And that’s why people say they never change is because if he were going to do it, he would be doing it already.

Claire (19:40):
If it was that he was lying to himself and he didn’t know that he was abusing at this point he does at this point he’s seen the patterns and so from this point he could totally mature up if he wanted to and treat me like a person and –

How a Healthy Man Would RespondAnne (19:53):
Yeah. And at this point, if you said, Hey, you know what space would be good for a year, he’d be like, you know what, after all I’ve done to you, I totally get it and I’m looking forward to dating you. Like this will be an exciting time. We can go out twice a week. Like I can come over and do like mow the lawn and like, these are the things I can do. This is the way I can help contribute even though I’m living in the apartment. That’s how you would talk, right? If if this were the case, you’d be like, you know what I’m excited about this time I’m gonna come over and I’m gonna cook for you every day. Maybe or I’m, these are the things I’m gonna do to make sure this works.

Claire (20:31):
Yeah. This is exciting. Well it would be sad though. I think it’s understandable to be sad, but then also to be completely respectful about it.

Do You Have to Babysit Your Husband? Anne (20:39):
Well instead of thinking I’m losing control and I’m never gonna be able to get control back, he’d be like, oh my gosh, we can finally have a good relationship. We can start over. Those are just all thoughts. I’m just saying, I really genuinely don’t know what’s right for you and I genuinely don’t know about him or, and I don’t know if he’s gonna change or not.

Claire (21:00):
I don’t know him either. So it’s really, and it’s really up to him. And I do think I need to be more observant and I’m for sure gonna talk about all these things with my therapist and I do think I need to stop babysitting him.

Anne (21:14):
You’re great. I care about you. I want you to be safe.

Claire (21:18):
Thank you. I will talk to you in six months and either way I will be in a safe place. So yeah. Thank you.

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastAnne (21:27):
You’re welcome. I’ll talk to you later. So this conversation kind of ends abruptly because I had to edit so much out for her safety. So just know that we are going to be checking back in with Claire in about six months to see where she’s at, to see what has happened. And I’m hopefully gonna keep my mouth shut more in that conversation and listen and see how she’s doing. And you can hear how it is too. See if her perspective is the same. See how her strategy that she’s been using is working for her.

I’m looking forward to talking with her again. And I hope that you are too. If you are interested in coming on the podcast and sharing your story, please contact my assistant Kari, kari@btr.org. I’m so grateful for all of you who share. If you are of a different faith or you’re an atheist, you are welcome on this podcast to share. I love listening to women’s stories and how they’re processing their experience from every faith paradigm or non-faith paradigm, agnostic or otherwise, cause everyone can learn from all of our experience. And when one of us has an epiphany, all of us do. So I really look forward to reconnecting with Claire in about six months. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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When you know that something needs to change, it may be temping to confront your abusive partner.

Anne is back on the podcast with Claire – and together they’re discussing ways to seek safety when you hope that your husband is changing – without putting yourself in danger of being manipulated. Listen to the BTR podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

When You Recognize Abuse – DON’T Tell Him He’s AbusiveIt feels empowering and exhilarating to finally have words for what’s happening to you. Many victims feel that if they can confront the abuser and tell him that he’s being abusive – spelling out what he’s doing and how it’s affecting them – he’ll stop his behaviors and change.

However, confronting the abuser is dangerous to victims.

“Talking to them about [their abusiveness], it just gives them more to groom [you with].”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

What Do Abusers Do When Confronted?Abusers respond in predictable ways when confronted with their abusive behaviors. They will:

• Groom victims by apologizing, owning their behaviors, and pretending to change; AND/OR,
• Gaslight victims into believing that the incident wasn’t actually abuse; AND/OR,
• Become volatile and/or violent; AND/OR,
• Manipulate enablers (flying monkeys) to prey on the victim, gaslighting her and making her feel crazy.

Confronting abusers is never safe. So what should do when you realize that you’re being abused?

What Should I Do INSTEAD of Confronting The Abuser?When you identify abuse, do not:

• Tell the abuser;
• Give him a list of “boundaries”;
• Ask the abuser for a polygraph; OR,
• Set “benchmarks” for the abuser’s behavior (they can only stay in the home if they start counseling, take a polygraph, confess to church authorities, etc.)

Instead, get yourself to a safe space, in safe proximity from the abuser. From that vantage point, you can determine whether or not you want to continue to engage with the abuser. You can determine which safety boundaries you will implement in order to protect yourself from abuse and control.

“Make your way to safety and then observe from a safe distance.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

BTR.ORG is Here For YouRemember that our Group Sessions are available to you. The BTR.ORG Strategy Workshop that Anne references in this podcast episode are an excellent resources for women navigating abuse. Enroll today.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

Claire and I are on today’s episode continuing our conversation. This conversation gets a little intense at this point. Claire and I really jived and there’s a lot that I edited out that you do not hear and so you’re gonna hear me like with sort of certainty like this is what you should do and this is what is happening. There’s a lot in this episode that was edited out, so I just want you to kind of keep that in mind. No, also, I obviously don’t have all the answers. If you’ve listened to the podcast from the beginning, you know that I have evolved over time. My feeling now is really strong that getting to safety first and observing from a safe distance is the safest thing for women. Now, every situation is different and every woman is different and only you know what’s best for you. As you listen to this episode, know that my intensity is only due to my own personal experience with for years confronting and explaining to someone and having them do what I asked, but then it never actually getting me to safety.

(04:08):
So I’m coming at this conversation from a very personal place and I don’t know if I was triggered per se, as I’ve just really passionate about warning women not to give their abuser a checklist. I talk about the Strategy Workshop that we have. If you see that online, we really recommend this for everyone so they know a strategy in order to observe from a safe distance, it’ll help give you some safety so you can observe to find out what’s really going on. We’re just gonna jump right into this conversation. I think the reason why I am concerned about the confrontation is cause I did that for seven years with my ex and he always sounded like, oh, our relationship is amazing and this is the most important thing to me. I care about our family because I went through that and all of it was grooming. Now I’m at the point where I’m like, there’s never a reason to tell them the only thing to do is just to like make your way to safety and then observe from a safe distance –

Giving Him A Checklist Just Gives Him the Opportunity to Groom YouClaire (05:21):
If they’re choosing to be a healthy person.

Anne (05:23):
Yeah. Cause talking to them about it, like it just gives them more to groom me.

Claire (05:27):
I’m not sure , I believe you that that’s, I don’t know, isn’t there like a 2%? Yeah, I could be the 2%.

Anne (05:36):
You totally could be , but because I thought I was the 2%, I’m not saying you’re not, but because I thought I was, that’s why it always makes me super nervous to be like there’s no reason to talk to them about it.

Claire (05:48):
Did your husband sound like that all the time? Because that is what my husband sounds like all the time.

Anne (05:52):
From the minute I married him. I was confronting it head on. I I never went through the love, serve, forgive phase.

You Can’t Connect With an Abuser Claire (05:58):
Well, but I would call him out and I kept, but I think I was trying to connect like you did this and he would shut me down but then he would apologize later. But it would be this vague I love you and I’m sorry and not apologies specific to what he did. So Yeah. But I would call him out. I was calling him out. But I think it was an effort to get to like connect and it’s like you can’t connect with someone unless they are willing to be seen and they actually are willing to see you. That was missing over and over and over again trying to, like my therapist said, I’m trying to logic mind him and to cut it out.

Anne (06:32):
. Exactly. Which is also kind of frankly what confronting is too. Yeah. It’s a, it’s another way of doing that. So just something to think about. Yeah, I don’t wanna be like, and then I gave her a lecture, –

Claire (06:46):
I’m fine with you lecturing me. I think it’s, it’s healthy and it is concerning, right? I am definitely being love bombed. I actually did start having some nightmares as I feel like more comfortable with him. Like I had , I had dreams that he was watching me sleep and stuff like that. But I think, I think a lot of my insecurity is still around my inability to walk away. Like I’m still struggling with that. I haven’t done it a hundred percent and since he’s love bombing I haven’t gotten as many chances to. What do you think though? Because I feel like if he’s handling, if he’s being honest –

Anne (07:23):
Well that’s the problem.

What Does Grooming Look Like? Claire (07:25):
I’m saying if it looks like he’s being honest over time, if he says he’s gonna do things and he does them. If he can handle criticism. He’s told me if I tell him office that he’ll go and sleep in the office when we’re back together. Like if I tell him to leave that he’ll leave.

Anne (07:39):
He will not.

Claire (07:40):
No. My gosh. Well then it would be done though at that point.

Anne (07:45):
This would be a good way to know. Say, you know what, the more I think about it, the more I feel like you moving into your own apartment would help me know.

Claire (07:54):
Yeah.

Anne (07:54):
Will you move into your own apartment and see how mad he gets –

Claire (07:57):
See how he handles it? Yeah.

Anne (07:59):
Oh he would get super mad I’m guessing.

Claire (08:01):
Well he did get upset cause he was hoping to reconcile like this month. I don’t know why he had a deadline in his mind and when I said our therapist said it would take several more months at least.

Anne (08:11):
Oh it’s gonna take like a year. tell him, tell him it’s gonna take five years. Be like, it’s gonna take five years and then watch him see, see him freak out. That’s what I’m trying to say.

Even If He Apologizes, It’s STILL AbuseClaire (08:24):
I feel like if I can say you are gaslighting me and he walks away and he doesn’t pout about it and he comes back and says what he did right, then I’m not being abused anymore.

Anne (08:35):
No, you’re still being abused because he gaslighted you in the first place.

Claire (08:39):
And not if I walk away from it.

Anne (08:40):
No, you are because he gaslit you. Okay. Listen to what you’re saying.

Claire (08:45):
This is turning into a therapy session.

Anne (08:46):
I know, sorry. But like okay, he comes in and he abuses me and if I can confront the abuse and tell him he’s abusive and he walks away and he can come back and say, “Yes, I was abusive,” then it’s okay. If you see this pattern over time, like he comes and abuses you, you point it out to him. This is why I’m saying not pointing it out to him. Like, I like that method because you just move away then the only way you talk to him is if he stops gaslighting you.

Gaslighting IS ABUSEClaire (09:16):
Yeah, that’s a valid point because –

Anne (09:18):
Otherwise you’re actually still being abused.

Claire (09:21):
Because I’m being love bombed and all that still.

Anne (09:24):
Well, the gaslighting was abuse.

Claire (09:25):
Yeah.

Anne (09:27):
So what I’m saying is you’re still being abused.

Claire (09:30):
Yeah. It was only once a month though.

Anne (09:33):
You know, I actually said that to myself. I said I, I did a calendar and then I actually did a calculation. I was like okay one out of 30 – I remember doing this. I like pulled out my calculator and I was like one divided by 30, that means I’m, he’s only abusive 3% of the time.

Claire (09:50):
. I didn’t know that’s what it looked like for you

Anne (09:54):
If he’s on the spectrum of abuse.

Claire (09:57):
She said he’s extremely abusive.

Anne (09:59):
So if she’s saying he’s extremely abusive.

Claire (10:02):
Yeah, she said he is not sad, he’s angry, he’s not lonely, he’s being controlling. I mean he is lonely but he’s being controlling.

Anne (10:08):
What you’re describing to me is like you’re kind of saying I’m willing to be abused as long as I can tell him, hey you’re abusive and he’ll admit it.

Claire (10:18):
Well as long as he’ll leave me alone actually.

Cycles of “Change Abuse” Anne (10:21):
So if he were actually non abusive, he would come to you. He wouldn’t gaslight you or anything. He would say, look, I know you’re needing your space right now because I’ve been abusive. Is now an okay time to talk to you or would you like your space? That is what you need to see to talk to him. , there’s literally no reason to keep telling him over and over the same thing. , you’re like basically you’re saying now he comes in, he abuses me, I say you’re abusing me. And he is like tells me Okay. And he’ll leave.

Claire (10:52):
\No he’ll leave and then he leaves. And then come back and tell me later. We haven’t gone to that part actually. But I’m hoping that’s what we’re . That’s what I’m hoping for.

Anne (11:01):
. Wait, wait, wait. He hasn’t come back later?

Claire (11:04):
No he has but it’s only been like the past week. But that’s when I called him out specifically.

Anne (11:09):
So this is the problem because –

Claire (11:11):
He’s not mature enough to do it on his own. Well of course he’s not because he didn’t do any of it until I said I was gonna kick him out.

Checking the Boxes = GroomingAnne (11:16):
He’s not doing it now either. You know why he is not doing it now? Because you’re giving him check boxes and he’s checking the boxes.

Claire (11:24):
You mean he’s not coming to me and saying this is the type of person I wanna be.

Anne (11:27):
Now you confronting him about it and telling him what you need. You’re giving him a piece of paper with check boxes on it. He’s really, really good at checking boxes. So that’s what he’s doing right now. He’s not even remotely caring about you? Not even a little bit.

Claire (11:42):
You mean cause he cares about himself. He just wants to get back and that’s the whole reason.

Anne (11:47):
Yeah. So basically he abuses you. You give him a checkbox, you say here’s a checkbox. He’s like, oh shoot, I gotta check that box.
And if I don’t, she’ll kick me out. So okay, I’m gonna check the box. It’s better to kick him out now and then say I would feel safer if you’re out of the house. I’m not sure if he’ll ever be safe for me or not. Good luck. And then just observe.

Claire (12:11):
Yeah.

Anne (12:11):
Because you’re, you keep handing him the checkbox.

Claire (12:15):
Yes. Yes.

Giving Him The Checklist Will PROLONG The Abuse Anne (12:21):
It’s definitely not emotional maturity or what like someone who’s mature would look like and also the checkbox is bad. Okay, here’s the real thing. You know how you were like the addiction recovery program prolonged my abuse.

Claire (12:32):
Yes.

Anne (12:33):
Giving him check boxes will also prolong your own abuse.

Try Practicing Strategic CommunicationClaire (12:37):
Yeah. But what if he didn’t see what he was doing before and now he is in a class with someone that’s like pretty sassy – they’re giving him the job to like pay attention to when he’s being controlling and pay attention to when he’s being mean.

Anne (13:01):
You’ve been married to him for 25 years, right? Yep. If I were myself knowing what I know in your situation. Okay. Now I would just do the strategic communication stuff in my house. So be like he’d come in and be like, hey, like how does he gaslight you when you’re reading? What does he say?

Claire (13:17):
He just walks up and starts and talking to me.

Anne (13:20):
I would just keep reading.

Claire (13:25):
I see what you’re saying is though, if he was someone who actually cared about me, he would say, are you okay if I interrupt you?

Anne (13:32):
He’s not gonna care.

Don’t Confront OR Comply Claire (13:34):
But I really do think I’m seeing a little bit of that of him actually. And, and I realize at this point I can’t tell if it’s sincere. What if it’s over a year time period that he’s –

Anne (13:45):
And it might be –

Claire (13:45):
Not that he’s not being invasive, right?

Anne (13:48):
Like Right. But that’s, that’s what I’m saying. Instead of saying anything, I would just literally look at my book and be like, I’m reading and then just read. Yeah. And then be like, I don’t know if you notice but I’m reading and then just keep reading but not say you’re interrupting me, you’re controlling you. None of that being like, I don’t know if you notice but I’m reading and then about the sex stuff it would be like he, if he’s like, Hey I wanna move in, be like no, I don’t feel safe enough yet, but, but that’s it. Like no. Yeah, no thank you. That’s it.

Claire (14:15):
You mean just observe how he chooses to mature on his own? Is that what you’re saying?

Anne (14:20):
Yeah. And not necessarily confront him about his stuff but also don’t comply with it.

Claire (14:24):
Mm-Hmm. . Right. So you’re more saying be more observant and see what initiative he’s taking on his own.

Anne (14:31):
Yes. And also don’t comply. So if he comes in and tries to talk to you instead of saying, “Hey, you’re now trying to coercively control me into talking to me and now you’re gaslighting me,” Right. Instead of saying that, be like, “I’m reading,” and just read.

How to Respond Strategically Claire (14:49):
Yeah.

Anne (14:50):
Like if he’s like, when are we gonna get back together? Instead of being like, I don’t know, let’s have a conversation about it. Be like, oh maybe we can talk about it later.

Claire (15:00):
Yeah.

Anne (15:01):
Like you don’t care. Doesn’t matter. I’m busy doing this other thing.

Claire (15:05):
So why would you do that?

Why Does Strategic Communication Work? Anne (15:07):
Because anything else is actually a relationship with the person where you’re like trying to have a relationship and if you are trying to have a relationship it gives them check boxes.

Claire (15:18):
Mm-Hmm

Anne (15:18):
and you cannot have a real actual relationship with an abuser. So you’re actually like still in this place where you’re thinking of him and seeing him as like a regular person who could like actually do that. It does not matter if they are abusive. It literally like does not matter what you say, what you do. They will, they are not going to change. Like they’re just not. And so if he has a goal in mind, he is going to check those boxes in order to groom you to get the goal.

Claire (15:50):
Hmm.

Anne (15:51):
Okay. And when he doesn’t get the goal or if he grooms you and then you don’t react the way that he the goal was intended. Yeah. So let’s say he’s like, if I’m really kind to her for a week, at the end of the week she’s gonna go on a date with me. Yeah. In his head. Yeah. Okay. In his head. And then he’s really kind to you all week and then he is like, hey I’d like to take you on a date. And you’re like, nah, I’d rather stay home and read. But thanks. That’s nice of you to ask then. Yeah. That’s when the anger comes out.

“If You Don’t Give Him Any Check Boxes, He Either Has a Choice to be a Healthy Human Being Or Just Be a Psycho” Claire (16:15):
Yeah. Okay.

Anne (16:16):
And that’s when you know that he had a goal.

Claire (16:19):
No. Yeah. I think that’s beautiful actually.

Anne (16:22):
If you don’t give him any check boxes and he has no goal and he can’t figure out what to do, then he either has a choice to be a healthy human being or just be a psycho.

Claire (16:30):
Mm-Hmm

Anne (16:32):
And if he turns into a psycho, that’s not great for you. But you’ll know, man I have to get out.

Claire (16:37):
He’s not choosing to grow up.

Anne (16:39):
Like therapy stuff and like giving him the check boxes and stuff. I am worried that it will only prolong your healing still.

Claire (16:47):
Yeah. Well I think what you’re saying makes sense. It has to be coming from him. The therapist I’m working with are helping me not be compliant. So I think that part is really, really good.

Anne (17:01):
The only problem is I was never compliant so I was always confrontational.

Claire (17:06):
But I was always confrontational and compliant. I would say all the ways that he’s not okay. But I was still like taking care of everything, making sure, you know?

Anne (17:14):
Right. Yeah, that’s true. And you know, that being said, I think I might have been that way too, where I was like always confronting him but then actually like I was having sex.

Claire (17:21):
Still doing what he wanted and it didn’t matter cause he was still getting what he wanted in the end.

Anne (17:24):
I started doing that where I was just like, Uhhuh. Yeah. Whatever. Or he’d be like, you know, la la la la la And I’d be like, what? I’m sorry I can’t hear you. I gotta go anyway. I got this thing but can we talk about it later or whatever. And he, that’s when he got arrested. He flipped out and got arrested. That’s what I’m saying.

Claire (17:47):
Okay. That is so interesting because I, I did hear, I think I listened to you maybe your first podcast also, I thought that your husband was doing domestic abuse the whole time.

Anne (17:57):
Only when I started doing the strategic stuff of not confronting him. Mm-Hmm Like I was like I’m not gonna confront him anymore.
You’re not giving him the script to groom you with here. If you do these things, I’ll let you back in maybe and these are the things that bother me because you know what that script, once he gets back in the house or if he’s still abusive will flip on you instantly because he’ll be like, she just gave me all of the things that really hurt her, now I’m gonna use ’em.

Claire (18:32):
Mm.

Anne (18:33):
So if you hold your cards really close to your vest where you’re like, I’m not going to show him what bothers me, even though you’re hurt and you’re being abused, you don’t give him a checklist.

Control IS ABUSE – Even if They Claim They’re Not “Intending” To Hurt YouClaire (18:43):
What about I don’t think he’s trying to hurt me. I think he’s trying to –

Anne (18:48):
Control you. Which is confirmed

Claire (18:49):
Control me. Yeah. He is trying to control me a hundred percent.

Anne (18:53):
Which is hurt.

Claire (18:54):
Yeah. So that part is hurt. But I just mean I don’t think he’s trying to do things to set out to cause harm. He’s setting out to do things to get what he wants.

Anne (19:03):
Yeah, exactly. But the thing, the problem is that he doesn’t care about you and so he’s gonna hurt you in the process.

Claire (19:09):
So far it has been, if I don’t comply then I will get hurt yet. But it’s been emotional hurt. What about this? Because the first month though we were like, I was like that. I didn’t think that it was gonna work out at all. I was completely disengaged. I would still give him a chance every once in a while to talk to me and he would start telling me how wonderful things are and I’d be like, okay, I’m done talking.

Anne (19:36):
His grooming worked. Because you’re engaging now.

Claire (19:39):
Yeah. Well he hasn’t gotten anything yet, but he hasn’t been kicked out.

Anne (19:44):
. Yeah, that’s what I mean. He has not been kicked out. So my ex, at a certain point where he saw that, I was like really aloof, guess what he decided in his head? This was before he started assaulting me. But he decided we were just gonna be roommates so he was just gonna look at porn and not try anymore because then he was like, wait a minute, I can’t, I can’t get –

Claire (20:08):
Can’t do this. Control her.

“You Don’t Deserve to be Abused” Anne (20:09):
Yeah, my biggest concern is you giving him a script to groom you or giving him a checklist. They’re so good at that. And if they have no checklist and there’s no timeline and there’s just like you being aloof, that’s not control for them at all. Yeah. That’s like what is happening? You don’t deserve to be abused.

Claire (20:28):
Well, but I feel like I’m not gonna put up with it. Like even if it happens, I’m gonna walk away from it. So even if we, I feel like I’m not gonna have to put up with it anymore no matter what. Because even if we were together, I’m gonna be walking away from it and he’s gonna be leaving because I tell him to. And if he doesn’t do that then it would be over. So at least it would be this minimal type of stuff.

Anne (20:51):
Yeah, I think it’s just like the, the boundary is the opposite of what it should be. It’s the difference between someone saying, okay, if you don’t get a polygraph, let’s see, I don’t necessarily recommend polygraphs, but a lot of women say this, if you don’t get a polygraph in six months, you’re going to need to move out. Okay. There’s the difference between that and saying you need to move out now so that I can be safe and I’m gonna observe from a distance to see if you can be honest with me. I’m just gonna observe. And they don’t even, that’s the, that’s all they do. Interesting. And they, and then they sit and watch to see if he’s like, you know what, I did this polygraph on my own or I’m becoming more honest and I watch what he does when they’re completely separated. Like actually separated. Mine went off the deep end. The second he was not in the house, he like no completely went off the deep end and I was afraid of that. Right. Because like there’s some way you can like give him the check boxes and I thought the same thing where I was like, he is never gonna get it. Like someone has to teach him how to do it cause he doesn’t know.

Claire (21:59):
Yeah.

Anne (22:00):
And now I’m like, he has had plenty of time now to learn. It is eight years later for me, he is the same exact person. Remarried. Like there was nothing that I could have said or done. He would’ve checked boxes all day long and I would’ve maybe prolonged my own healing accidentally.

Are You Staying “For The Kids”? Claire (22:19):
What do you think about like my bar is low right now, right? I’m totally gonna talk to my therapist about all the stuff that you’re saying and I’m gonna seriously think about it and I think you’re making really good points. But what if it’s just like my bar is so low because of the kids. If I can create an environment where my boundaries are so good and he’s walking away when I tell him to walk away, do you know what I’m saying? And he’s mostly, mostly not being a jerk. And occasionally he is abusive and then he leaves cause I tell him to leave and I walk away from it. Right. And if it’s so rare and he’s still super emotionally immature, right? He’s still not growing up but he’s not doing crappy things cause he can’t get away with it anymore. So he’s immature but he’s not doing crappy things. But home life is stable for my kids. Do you know what I’m saying? I think that’s why my bar is so low. Is that not rational ?

Anne (23:12):
That’s kind of like saying I, I can be touched by flames and not get burned .

Claire (23:19):
That is a good point cause I am actually super concerned that the closer he gets I won’t be able to think clearly. Cause I do struggle to see, clearly.

You Can’t NOT Be Harmed By Abuse Anne (23:30):
We talk about this analogy in the Strategy Workshop – that’s like trying to say, I can be like in a flame and not get burned. It doesn’t matter what you think. You will get burned, abuse will hurt you. So you are going to get hurt if you are being harmed. If someone comes up and punches you in the face. You can’t just be like, I’m not gonna get hurt. Like that’ll put you out the whole day and you’ll have a bruise.

Claire (23:57):
What if, because you don’t believe it because he, his whole deal was just you’re mean and I’m lonely and if I’m not buying that anymore, do you know what I’m saying? Like if I can speak clearly enough that it’s like, oh wow, you’re okay, I’m done talking to you, then it’s not gonna have the harm that it has caused.

Anne (24:13):
Totally. Totally. So there, there could, in your case you might be like, this is the right thing for me. Right? That there, there’s totally that I do wanna challenge that fundamental thing that like, and I think this is the heart of it. All of the reasons why you don’t wanna actually get to safety, why you wanna get out of the fire are related to how am I gonna take care of my kids? How am I gonna pay the bill? You know, that kind of stuff. Right? So instead of even considering is he gonna get better or is he not gonna get better, any of that. Like perhaps, here’s another idea, again, just brainstorming here. You don’t have to listen to anything I say. You can think I’m crazy, I don’t care.

Claire (24:54):
I’m totally listening to you and I, and I appreciate you challenging me.

Anne (24:57):
Put it on the shelf for a little while and be like, you know what? I don’t even care. I am just gonna start praying for the waters to be parted. Because you know what, God is a billionaire. It’s weird.

Claire (25:10):

Are You Staying Because You Don’t Have Resources to Leave? Anne (25:11):
He has all the money that you could ever want or need. He has all the resources you could ever want or need and they are available to you. Now I’m not saying you’re ever gonna be a billionaire, that’s not what I’m saying. But like, if you start praying and saying, Heavenly Father, I am in an unsafe situation and the only thing keeping me in this situation are resources. How can I get the resources that I need? What do you want me to do? Kind of like Nephi and the boat, right? He’s like, where are the tools so I can build the boat?

Claire (25:48):
Yeah. You mean because if he needs it to happen, he can provide the resources.

Anne (25:51):
Exactly.

Claire (25:52):
Or if I want it to happen. I think I have lived my life like God, what’s the exact right thing to do? And I think God really wants us to exercise our agency.

You Won’t Know if He’s Safe Until You Let Go of the RelationshipAnne (26:01):
Yeah. If you’re like, I’m sick of this abuse, he’d be like, yay, I’ve been waiting 25 years for you to say this. Right? Yeah.

Claire (26:08):
Really do think though, if he chose to be mature, I would want to stay. But I, I agree with what you’re saying that it has to be his own volition and not, and that’s really interesting cause I think I have been, I’m babysitting him the way you were talking about like do this and then do this and then do this.

Anne (26:25):
You’re never gonna know until you like set him free. And that’s super scary because pretty much they like take a deep, deep dive after that. Dive off the deep and you don’t want that to happen. So you’re not like, you’re like, I don’t wanna do it. Cause that’s what I did too. And that’s what happened. So the chances of that happening are like 98% right? And you could you be the 2%? Yes. We’re gonna take a break here. I know that conversation got really intense. Claire and I are gonna continue our conversation next week. So stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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You didn’t get married, believing that your husband would betray you with pornography.

You didn’t give your heart to him, believing that he would emotionally and psychologically abuse you.

Now that you have the words for his behavior and what’s he’s been doing to you for so long, perhaps you still hope for a reconciliation – perhaps you, like Claire – this week’s guest on the podcast – hope that he can change.

Read the full transcript below and listen to the free BTR.ORG Podcast to explore this week’s topic: How Do I Know if My Abusive Husband is Changing?

IMPORTANT: Showing your husband this article or asking him to read it is NOT a safe decision and will likely lead to a sudden change in his behavior that seems positive – but will most likely be grooming, rather than sincere change.

Please keep this article for “your eyes only”.

He’ll Treat You Like An Equal (& Reject Misogyny)

“How long has it been since you’ve thought a misogynistic thought? How long has it been since you thought, Oh why doesn’t my wife wipe off the table? What’s her problem? Instead of being like, oh the table needs to be wiped off, I am going to get a rag and wipe it off because I’m an adult and I live here.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

A man who is changing from an abuser to a healthy person, will, for a long period of time, consistently reject misogyny.

This means that he will:

• Not expect or ask others to cook, clean, or “take care” of him.
• Not expect, ask for, or coerce you or others for sex.
• Clean up after himself and others, taking on household and yard tasks without being prodded, asked, or encouraged.
• Avoid organizations and situations where misogyny and patriarchy are systemically significant.
• Reject patriarchal leadership roles.
• Forfeit financial control and take proactive steps to learn how to have a mutual financial partnership

He Will NEVER Go Back to Pornography UseHealthy men don’t use pornography. Period.

Healthy men understand that pornography is exploitative and abusive to the victims of the industry, as well as destructive to their wives and themselves. It’s NOT a “temptation” to a healthy man.

It’s a no-brainer.

If your husband is truly changing, then he has done the work to understand the exploitative nature of the pornography industry and the effects that his pornography use has had on you and your family – and he will never go back to it. Not even once.

He’ll Respect Your AutonomyA healthy man who is truly changing respects your right to make decisions – large and small. He understands that he has zero right to make demands on your time, body, and energy. He gives you space.

So How Do I Know If He’s Actually Changing? But you’re not a mind-reader and abusers are VERY good at mimicking these healthy behaviors.

At BTR.ORG, we know that it can be dangerous to live in close proximity to an abuser who claims to be changing.

If you are invested in staying married to the abuser, believing that he is willing and capable of change, we highly suggest taking our Strategy Workshop, and maintaining a safe distance from the abuser so that you can observe, from that distance, for a good period of time, if he is maintaining these changes.

Read Why Does He Do That? for even more information on what it looks like for an abuser to make amends for abuse.

And remember, our daily Group Sessions are available to support you.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. Claire, who is a member of our community is back with us on today’s episode. If you did not listen to last week, listen to that first so you know what’s going on and then join us here. We’re going to just jump right back in. So you attended your church’s addiction recovery program, which is a program for wives of porn addicts or wives of sex addicts. Talk about your experience with that.

Claire (03:21):
So initially he was the only one going, and this is back when it was very first even starting. And so they actually didn’t have the women’s group when we first started. I loved going to the meetings because, probably because I was a hermit cause I didn’t have any friends cause I wasn’t taking care of myself. So this is like the only time where I was talking to women, but the, of course the main thing I am upset about is that they’re, they didn’t teach about that lying is abuse. That’s the main thing that made me upset. So I actually, when I, when they said women whose husbands use pornography that they have PTSD symptoms, I felt like seen in that, but at the same time and I felt like, oh, like I feel super stressed out, but that’s normal. So it did like take a weight off of me, but at the same time it was like, oh, but it’s because I feel like he’s cheating on me when he is looking at porn, but he isn’t. So it’s just like this illogical emotional response.I don’t know if they taught that or that’s what I got out of it, was that it was, you feel like he’s cheating on you because he’s looking at these pictures and that’s why you have this PTSD response.

This is How The “Sex Addiction Model” Blames VictimsAnne (04:26):
Or the, the, the reason you’re still having trouble is because now you’ve got a problem and it’s PTSD and so now whenever you react to him or whenever you’re having a hard time, it’s cause you have PTSD. But nothing’s necessarily wrong with him now cause he’s being honest. Suddenly after 25 years of not being honest Yeah, suddenly he’s getting gold stars. Good for him. When it’s like number one PTSD symptoms. Yes, we all have them. Could we, could we get diagnosed with PTSD? Yes. And I also want to say that’s completely normal. Like you’re completely normal. You don’t have some disease, there’s nothing wrong with you. The reason why you’re reacting like this is because you are being usually currently continually being abused. You’re being lied to, coerced, and manipulated. If you were completely safe and you felt completely safe, you wouldn’t be reacting. You know, like you wouldn’t have the anxiety you’re feeling when you’re around him.

Claire (05:25):
Yeah. I don’t know if that’s what they taught or if that’s, that’s just what I got out of it is you’re, you’re having a PTSD response when you find out your husband’s looking at porn. But it’s like, it’s not because I’m like, oh, I, I emotionally feel like he’s cheating. It’s like, he is lying. You’re, you’re in a relationship with someone who’s being compulsive sexually and is lying to you. So like that is not safe. So you don’t feel safe and you have these PTSD symptoms because you’re actually not safe. So like, so your feelings are legitimate and yeah, that was a huge piece that was missing was like, why don’t you teach that lying is abuse and, and you’re not, you’re actually not safe.

Abuse is Causing The Trauma – So Why Do Sex Addiction Models Blame the Victim?Anne (06:01):
Also, what is the PTSD from? If you’re gonna say that from, it’s from abuse, porn is abuse, right? Because they have to lie and there’s all that stuff going on around it. So it is from abuse, that’s what it’s from. It’s not from quote unquote just porn or whatever. It’s from the whole system of coercive control. That’s what the PTSD s is from. And they, they’re not seeing that. They’re saying, oh, you have PTSD s symptoms and it’s from abuse cause you’re being abused. Right. Or at least that’s not what you got out of it.

Claire (06:36):
It’s so interesting. I I really love the the Omar Minwalla Model because it, how it kind of breaks it down. You’ve got the compulsion and then you have the entitlement and then you have the abuse. Right? And so even if you just had the compulsion, if you had someone who was using porn but they weren’t lying about it at all, that you would still feel scared because they’re being compulsive and they’re doing something that’s demeaning to women. But till still, to me it would seem like I feel at least 80% safer because if you’re telling me right away, at least I know what’s happening. And that’s the piece that I didn’t see until it was like, until you guys kind of split that out for me. That it’s like the lying is part of the abuse.

Even if He Says He’s Stopped, Does He Still Treat You The Same Way As Before? Anne (07:16):
Yeah. I, I see this a lot with victims and I, I wanna say like beware of this. They’ll be like, yeah, he was using porn and then he says he stopped and he didn’t use for a while. Right? And I’m like, who said he wasn’t using for a while? And how do you know that? We never know. We never ever can know if they want to use porn. There is literally no way for us to know that they’re not using except for their behavior. So when women say to me they stopped using porn but they were still angry and, and I’m like, you don’t know that they didn’t stop porn. Right. You have no idea. There’s some men in my life that I genuinely don’t believe use porn at all and never have because their behaviors have been consistent over time. But if a porn user says to me, I’ve stopped, but their behavior is relatively still the same, there’s literally no reason to believe them that they’ve stopped. And even if they have, who cares?

Claire (08:16):
Well, Kim Day says that even if they do stop and, and my husband actually he would have like six months and they use it again in six months and use it again. It’s still the whole, they’ve been watching porn. Like they may, they probably already have an entitlement attitude that they’re struggling with. Like, I’m entitled to women and women should show up like this sexually. And then you’re watching porn, which a lot of times, you know, has abuse in it and besides being demeaning to women in general and she said then they stop using the porn but they still have abusive behaviors that they learned from the porn. The whole attitude of being entitled towards women is like the source of abuse. So even if you end up with someone who isn’t using porn and you’re likely still gonna have the abusive behaviors after the fact if they stopped in the first place, what you’re using.

“If You Learn About Abuse First…”Anne (09:06):
My goal in life is that whenever any woman finds out that her husband’s using porn and it is a surprise to her, right? Or finds out that he’s been lying or an affair or something, that the first thing they learn about before they even think about pornography addiction recovery, before they even think about love languages or men’s sexual needs, , anything like that, that they learn about abuse. Because once you learn about abuse, all that other stuff is you realize it’s ridiculous. Like if you learn about abuse first and then you learn about pornography addiction recovery, it’s like this is ridiculous. If you learn about abuse first and then you learn about men’s sexual needs, quote unquote, you’re like, that is ridiculous. So the abuse education helps you dismiss all the misogynistic societal slash religious exploitative privilege that men have because that is systemic and it’s everywhere. If you really have a good handle on abuse, it’s easier to dismiss it from all of the different places that it is coming from.

Claire (10:12):
Well, and you’re gonna be able to see it. Whereas you probably wouldn’t if you just were thinking about the porn, then you wouldn’t be able to see the other patterns. Because it’s pervasive. It’s not, it’s not just porn.

Have You Read Why Does He Do That? Anne (10:25):
I think we both want desperately for women to be more educated about abuse. Yeah. And when I first found, Why Does He Do That? I wanted to literally like load up an airplane and put little, little like parachutes on Why Does He Do That? And throw them out and just be like, everyone needs to read this book.

Claire (10:44):
I actually felt angry when I read it cause I, I just felt like this is so awful. I don’t know cause it like physically made me sick whenever I go to therapy appointment that’s like actually useful. They’re usually challenging, you know, it was like my whole perspective, my whole world was kind of like dumped upside down. I think it’s cause he’s, he shocks you back into mapping their intentions and it’s a rough.

Anne (11:07):
It is rough. I think the other thing is I’m not that way, right? I mean, like, I’m putting that in quotes. Like, you think of a, a domestic abuse victim in a certain way, right? And you’re like, I have a college education or I would never stand for abuse. Like we have this view of maybe ourselves and who we are. And so to accept that we are an actual victim of abuse is very heart-wrenching. It’s like embarrassing. It’s hard to like wrap your head around. It’s something that you sort of wanna push off. Also, the consequences of it are so intense. I remember being like, okay, he’s abusive but I don’t want my family to fall apart. So what am I supposed to do? Yeah. Like, okay, I, I’ll just live in abuse I guess cause I don’t wanna have to get divorced. I remember I went through, you know, I know a month or two of that in my head realizing he was abusive and then thinking like, but I, I don’t like the consequences of this, so can I call it something else?

BTR Is Here For You(12:01):
Can I do something about, you know? So I think that’s why it’s just so heart-wrenching to find out you’re a victim and realize that like your life is going to have to change and not due to anything that you did. You have to face this awful terrible thing and, and also no one is coming to help you. BTR is here and we’ve got awesome online BTR Group Sessions every day and we have podcasts and workshops and things to help women. But like I I always think about the, the Israelites, God parted the Red Sea. I see that as education about abuse. So when you finally are educated about abuse, that’s like God parting the Red Sea for you. But you have to walk through. You have to start walking and no one else is gonna start walking it for you.

(12:44):

No one else can set boundaries for you. No one else can do that. And that is hard too because it feels like, who’s gonna help me? Like I’m the victim here, and you are. And I was, and I remember like even court situations where I felt like, no one is helping me. Clergy won’t help me, therapists won’t help me. Like no one will help me. And then I, like now I look back and think, oh I’ve learned so many skills now. Especially strategic thought and communication tactics, which is a workshop that we have here that is like totally changed everything for me. And I, I am like, wow, this interacting with my abuser in this way has like changed everything. And I could do that myself. Like I didn’t have to have the court do that or a therapist do that or something else.

Learning About Abuse & Choosing to Deliver Yourself From Abuse(13:27):
Like that was something that was totally within my power. And so I think those two things, right? The learning about abuse is parting the sea. You have to walk through and, and no one is gonna save you. You are gonna be your own hero; like from my faith perspective through the atonement of our Savior, like he can make this horrible situation like good for you. When I say good for you, I mean like you can learn and grow and receive so many blessings as you rely on Christ. From my faith perspective I see it that way and I’m grateful for the experience but it is harrowing. So can God help? Yes. Can our Savior help? Yes. I don’t mean to say like you’re all alone, but I just mean you have to, you have to walk through.

Claire (14:14):
Yeah. I do feel like the community, like the BTR groups, just having someone listen to you and understand like believing you is very validating. I feel like that’s essential because you already kind of feel like it’s very shocking and disorienting. So I mean they can’t take the actions for you. But that emotional support for me has been really vital because I’m like, am I seeing this clearly? Like this is, I feel, you know, I feel like I am but that’s been super, super helpful for me. And I was like, holy crap my whole life, where was this information 24 years ago?

Anne (14:49):
Yeah. Well and that’s why I started it. Cause we’re the same age and I, there was nothing and there wasn’t anything.

Claire (14:54):
They were just barely becoming aware of pornography, you know?

Anne (14:59):
Yeah. I started BTR because even at the time when I started it, when I started podcasting, there was nothing and I knew there was nothing cause I’d worked in the “pornography addiction recovery industrial complex” for years. And so I knew that there, there wasn’t anything and the ways that people were talking about it, they were not including abuse, they weren’t making abuse the central issue. It was like yeah, “Oh and then he might be abusive” sort of on the side. But it was not the central issue. And I think it is the central issue.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaI’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us. It bumps Trauma Mama Husband Drama up in the Amazon algorithm and even if women don’t purchase the book, it helps them find this podcast which is free to everyone.

“It’s The Emotional Abuse… That’s Been Really Destructive to Me” Claire (16:28):
Yeah. And for me, that wasn’t, I almost feel like don’t get mad at me, but I’m like, I actually don’t really care about porn anymore, but like I’m just, I don’t even care. I don’t even care. Like can you please stop trying to control me? Like, let me make my own choices. Don’t gaslight me, don’t blame-shift me. It’s been the, the emotional abuse, especially since it’s been so covert that’s been really destructive to me. And I feel like yeah, guys can you please expose that so that women can move on with their lives. Because when you’re focusing on the porn addiction, it’s like all the focus is on the porn end and that he’s like this victim and he’s struggling and the focus isn’t on the wife getting boundaries and safety for her.

Anne (17:07):
It’s also not on him not being abusive either.

Claire (17:10):
Yeah. Not being honest and, and then it’s like, oh how long has it been since you’ve been, you know, oh okay, wow. It’s been like six months. That’s amazing. But it’s like, well you know, he got really angry at me yesterday cause I wouldn’t watch a movie with him and you know, like , like all this other crazy stuff.

Anne (17:28):
How long has it been since you’ve thought a misogynistic thought? How long has it been since you thought, oh why doesn’t my wife wipe off the table? What’s her problem? Instead of being like, oh the table needs to be wiped off, I am going to get a rag and wipe it off because I’m an adult and I live here.

“When You Just Try to Preserve the Marriage At The Expense of a Healthy Marriage, You’re Not Helping the Men Either” Claire (17:48):
Just please empower me. That’s what I wanted. I want information like, I want the 20 year old me, I’m sure there’s, you know, thousands and thousands of women just to have that piece of information. This is abuse, and then she can go and figure things out herself and she can learn and she can put boundaries down. And cause he didn’t change at all, even with all the information we were having all these discussions and he is, I love you so badly and I, I wanna do all these things until I was like, I’m done. Like we’re, and so that’s actually would’ve been in his benefit, not just my benefit if we had learned this stuff earlier because it’s been decades of him having a great time getting sex where he wants and me taking care of everything, but not having a strong relationship. Like, that’s in his best interest too. That’s what he actually does want and was going about it a really, really, really unhealthy way. You’re not helping the men either. When you just try to preserve the marriage at the expense of a healthy marriage,

Anne (18:42):
You’re not helping anyone submitting to evil.

Claire (18:46):
Yeah.

Anne (18:47):
If you’re complying with wickedness, I’ll just, that’s the word I kind of like to use because you’re being coerced to do so. And because you don’t understand it’s wickedness. So this is not to put any blame on us cause we didn’t know, we didn’t understand. Yeah.

Empowering YOURSELF to Learn About AbuseClaire (19:02):
No. If you can’t see it, how are you? You don’t have the words for it. How are you supposed to stop it? In the way that I would’ve seen it. I’ve been to a therapist that couldn’t see it, so there’s no way me as a young wife, there’s no way I’m gonna understand.

Anne (19:14):
No. And in saying that the end result, even though it’s not your fault and even though it has nothing to do with you of basically complying with wickedness thinking, oh, if I have more sex then he’ll be nice. Is not good.

Claire (19:29):
It’s enabling evil.

Anne (19:31):
Yeah, it is. It’s enabling evil and it’s not enabling it because you’re not meaning to and you don’t know what it is and you’re not doing it on purpose or anything, but

Claire (19:40):
Trying to be a good, nice wife.

Anne (19:42):
Yeah. , it’s not good for you and it’s also not good for your marriage and it’s not good for him.

Claire (19:48):
Yeah. Not good for him either to stay in this stasis of immaturity. So, but he sure wouldn’t have chosen to grow up unless it was like, hey this is, I’m done with this. So sometimes that has to happen. Well that should happen all the time.

Anne (20:04):
abusive men are goal oriented.

What Does Abusive Grooming Look Like? Claire (20:08):
His goal is to get back together.

Anne (20:09):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So the grooming right now is super, super goal-oriented. If he’s saying these things to get back with you once that goal is accomplished –

Claire (20:20):
He’ll slide back. Yeah.

Anne (20:22):
Well I don’t know if he will or not, but like if, if it’s goal-oriented, that’s what would happen. If it’s sincere, then it wouldn’t. So trying to figure out is this genuine sincere change or is this grooming with a, with a particular goal. And time, like a lot of time and a lot of observation is the only thing that will help you know that.

This is What Gaslighting Looks Like Claire (20:46):
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I, I don’t feel even competent to do that at this time. So I’m glad that she’s helping me. Yeah, he’s definitely goal oriented. The first month we were separated he was very angry and, and victimy so, and not able to hear anything about himself. So at least now he is like listening, accepting it. So that’s huge. And I think he’s sincere in that he still really struggles to see where he’s lying to himself. And, but he did a week and a half ago was trying to push me to set a reconciliation date and I said, I don’t feel comfortable doing that. And so, and he lied and said he wanted talk about something else and then pushed me to set a reconciliation date again. And I accused him of being pushy. And this is where like all the gaslighting, this is the part that people can’t see comes out.

(21:30):
He’s like, you’re you’re being a horrible communicator. You’re not supposed to label my intentions, you know, you’re not supposed to do that. And like he just kind of flipped out and did the whole like blame shifting gaslighting thing. And so, and then I was like, and my problem is I’ll sit and freeze and just listen to it. And so that’s been really awful for me. And which was crazy cause I already knew I should get up and leave. So anyway, that’s something I need to work on. I am working on and my therapist is amazing. Cause I was like, I don’t wanna say you are gaslighting. I just wanna be like, it seems to me like you’re gaslighting. She’s like, no, you are like, you are gaslighting. I’m done talking to you. When you can tell me what you did that was gaslighting, then we’ll talk. And so I feel super happy about that cause then it’s just all on him to figure it out instead. I’ve tried to be like logic minding him and I’m like, no, well you actually were pushy cause I said no, and then you asked me again. And then that just gets ’em angrier.

Our Strategy Workshop Can Help YouAnne (22:20):
Right? The strategic stuff that we recommend in the Strategy Workshop is actually not confronting them at all about their abuse. That would be like toward reconciliation. Right? Like that’s how a relationship works. You point out with someone, hey, you’re doing this thing and then they listen to you and then they alter their behavior. Right. With abuse, my perspective now is to not mention it all and just slowly move away and see if they change their behavior from a distance.

Claire (22:51):
Yeah.

Anne (22:51):
Like observe, observe it. And when they do it be like, huh, I gotta, I gotta be somewhere and back away and then see what happens. Because they enjoy that. They, they like the confrontation.

Claire (23:04):
But I, I like the tool that she just gave me though, because it’s like, I am exiting this conversation. This is what I see and the responsibility on you is to look at yourself and figure it out. And I’m leaving now and then just continue to have that space until he, until he looks at himself. So I, I feel optimistic about it, but it is his, it is his choice and it is really hard, but I feel safe because I have good help and all that information. I really feel like most women would not do this to themselves if they have, you just have to have the words for it.

Anne (23:32):
We’re going to pause here and Claire and I are going to continue talking next week, so stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

View Details

Covert narcissistic abuse can be nearly impossible to detect because covert abusers use manipulative tactics to keep a “clean slate image”.

Are you married to a covert narcissistic abuser?

Claire, a member of the BTR.ORG community, endured covert narcissistic abuse for twenty-five years before finally being able to put a name to it – and when she did, she was able to move toward safety. Read the full transcript below and tune in to the free BTR.ORG podcast to hear her story.

Covert Narcissists Use Passive-Aggressive Techniques to Control Victims

“[The abuser] would never say, ‘you shouldn’t go to activities, you should hang out with me.’ It was rare for him to say things that would look abusive. But like if I’m reading a book around him, he’s not okay with that. But instead of saying, you shouldn’t read books around me, you’re making me feel lonely or things that would be more easily recognizable, he just would interrupt me to start talking to me.”

Claire, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

Covert narcissistic abusers are generally seen by others as extremely nice, passive, and congenial men. This is because covert abusers rarely, if ever, say or do overtly abusive things. Instead, they control victims by:

• Pouting
• Sulking
• Emotional blackmail (“If you don’t have sex with me, I’ll have to use porn; If you don’t stay home from this trip, I’ll get depressed and have to ignore you”)
• Using “flying monkeys” (Having in-laws, friends, clergy, and others tell the victim what she “should” do in order to please the abuser)
• Getting their feelings hurt, in order to make the victim walk on eggshells
• Using scripture or other texts
• Gaslighting/blame-shifting/word-twisting
• Systematically breaking down the victim’s self-esteem so that the victim seeks their approval, then intermittently giving the victim approval and validation

Have You Experienced Covert Sexual Abuse?Many women in our community have experienced covert sexual abuse.

Claire describes it this way:

“If we hadn’t had sex for 48 hours, then he would start criticizing me and just like pouting and frowning and just being kind of toxic until we would have sex.”

Claire, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

Covert abusers often justify marital rape by saying things like:

• “I didn’t hold her down, so it wasn’t rape.”
• “She eventually said yes, so it wasn’t rape.”
• “She initiated it, so it wasn’t abuse.”
• “She didn’t try to fight me off, so it wasn’t rape.”
• “All marriages require negotiation when it comes to sex. Ours is no different.”
• “She set the standard for me having to push for sex… it’s just how it is with us. It’s not abuse.”
• “She didn’t say no, so it wasn’t rape.”
• “I didn’t know she didn’t want it, even though she [was crying, said no, laid there frozen, said it hurt, asked me to stop, etc].”

Bottom line: covert sexual abusers are despicable human beings.

Having sex with someone who does not want to have sex with you and has not given their enthusiastic consent is rape.

If you have experienced covert sexual abuse, you are a victim of rape. Please seek support.

BTR.ORG is Here For YouOur BTR.ORG Group Sessions meet daily in every time zone – please attend a session today. Victims of covert abuse find validation and community as they share their experiences and process their trauma with other victims and our expert coaches. We love you, we believe you.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. Welcome, Claire.

Claire (02:59):
Hi, nice to talk to you Anne.

Anne (03:01):
Claire and I are from the same faith background, so not necessarily a trigger warning, but we’ll be talking about how these issues have affected us in our faith and also some particular programs specific to our faith. But it will relate because a lot of you have been through programs that are similar to this, either faith-based or secular programs or maybe 12 step programs. So I think that you’ll relate, but if you’re like, eh, I’m not into this, then meet us in the next episode. But I just wanted to let you know that, that we’ll be talking about that from a faith perspective. As always, all faiths, all paradigms are welcome here and I’m always looking for women who share their story. So if you’re interested in sharing your story regardless of your faith background, please contact my assistant Kari (kari@btr.org) cause I would love to talk to you as well. So let’s start with Claire. So Claire, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Identifying Sexual Coercion in MarriageClaire (03:57):
So not at all. , we just had our 25th anniversary and it’s only been started seeing things with someone else’s help in March. So it’s been, you know, a quarter of a century. My abuse is, is mainly sexual coercion and covert emotional abuse. And he wants to look like the good guy. And so it is really difficult to see. And so I had put in a lot of effort, this is the whole like love, serve, forgive thing, like our whole marriage, you know, trying to be a good person and learn how to communicate. And I had been listening to some podcasts about sex and how it should be for both people and just learning a lot. And then so because of that we started fighting more . So that had only been like the past two years. So I was really frustrated with that because I felt like it’s a true principle that marriage is, and sex is supposed to be for both people, but it still wasn’t working for us and I could not see why. So I, someone had offered to be a sponsor on one of those sites and so I was talking to her a lot and she has a husband who’s abusive and when I was telling her some things that were going on, she was like, that is abuse . So, and I’m like, no, he’s just following me around and unlocking doors.

Anne (05:14):
Did his sexual coercion involve using porn and giving you the impression that he was not, that he was faithful and that he was sort of a Christian man?

“I Think He Felt Entitled To Sex” Claire (05:26):
So this is actually my main frustration with our church’s addiction recovery program is that he did tell me about the porn use one year into marriage. And so he was sincere about trying to work on it. Like he didn’t act like he wanted to be doing that. And there were long periods of time he wouldn’t be doing that. But at the same time, I think he also felt entitled to sex. And so if he wouldn’t get it, I think that’s when he would be indulging. And I’m not sure if it’s possible he was using it as manipulation sometimes that like it was my fault and not, he would never, he never says anything, he never would say that,

Anne (06:01):
But maybe like he has those, those like opinions. It’s interesting cuz some, some of them have these, like this is their core belief, right? That I’m entitled to this. I’m also entitled to my wife’s physical labor, right? She should be doing all the housework. I’m entitled to her deferring to me on major decisions, you know, things like that. But a lot of them know this is not okay. So they would never say it out loud. They just find a way to manipulate around it. And the words that come out of their mouth are, oh yeah, of course we’re equal partners, of course I care about you. But the actions and the way they operate in the relationship are not congruent with those words.

“It Just Took a Little Bit of Information For Me to See the Pattern”Claire (06:44):
Yeah. So I went into the marriage thinking it was gonna be equal with the kids and everything like that and not knowing anything about sex and what’s normal and kind of blindsided. So this person said, this is abuse to me. And I was like, no. And totally didn’t believe her. And I was like, he’s just kind of like needy. And then I listened to one of the podcasts you told me about and that was on emotional abuse. And I was just completely blown away. This is the part that I feel is super important because it just took a little bit of information for me to see the pattern. Like all I needed to know was that abuse is a pattern of control based on entitlement. And he’s a very like fierce guy, like considerate and fierce guy. He was like, emotional abuse isn’t this like whole separate category, it’s just a tool that belongs with everything else.

(07:34):
It’s part of, of domestic abuse. And the whole thing with like abusers typically looking like they’re charming and they’re the ones that look good and they’re the ones that show up for service projects and they deserve preferential treatment and all that. And that the one that’s being abused is more likely to look crazy. And I’m like, Hey, that’s me . And yeah, so that kind of blew me outta the water, but it still is like anyone seeing my husband, he’s like very good natured and jolly. He did not wanna be anything like his dad. So he’s like, if you’re angry, you’re a bad person. And, but it’s like if you pick up the entitlement stick, if you decide that you’re entitled to things, then you end up picking up the abuse stick is what it feels like. And so he feels like, yeah, he’s entitled to sex pretty much as much as he wants and he’s also entitled to my presence.

👉🏽 THIS IS COVERT ABUSE 👈🏽(08:23):
So that’s the part that’s probably a little bit different than most people. Like, it’s kind of like I’m this sex toy on a shelf kind of a thing. , he idolizes me, but I’m not a person so I can’t have bad feelings against him. I can’t put space between us if I want to go to activities when he’s not working, he’ll pout and stuff like that. But he would never say, you shouldn’t go to activities, you should hang out with me. It was rare for him to say things that would look abusive or rare. You could figure it out. But like if I’m reading a book around him, he’s not okay with that. But instead of saying, you shouldn’t read books around me, you’re making me feel lonely or things that would be more easily recognizable, he just would interrupt me to start talking to me.

Anne (09:06):
Well or even just being honest about it. I mean there’s abuse, right? There’s emotional abuse, which is like not letting you have any other interests, making you focus all of your time on him, you know, coercive control. Yeah. And then there’s also like, hey, you’re reading a lot and that’s fine, it’s just that I really like spending time with you and I wanna talk to you.

Claire (09:27):
Yeah. But that would be like owning responsibility, right? And that would be acting like I have a choice. Like I have the ability to choose.

Anne (09:35):
Exactly.

Abusive Entitlement & Control ExplainedClaire (09:36):
Interrupting someone when they’re reading a book, that’s not a big deal. But the the big deal is the you shouldn’t be doing that. The trying to control –

Anne (09:43):
I’m entitled to your attention, rather than I know you’re reading this book, but I would really like your attention.

Claire (09:50):
Yeah, yeah. But that’s, that’s being equals, right? But, and the sexual coercion looked like if we hadn’t had sex for 48 hours, then he would start criticizing me and just like pouting and frowning and just being kind of toxic until we would have sex. So, and I had read The Act of Marriage and also like all the church stuff that was like, focus on yourself –

Anne (10:15):
When you say all the church stuff, what she’s referring to on as focus on yourself is their program for wives of porn addicts. So basically, don’t confront him per se about what he’s doing. Just focus on being the best person that you can be kind of a thing, right?

“I Couldn’t See or Understand What Was Going On” Claire (10:33):
Well, I mean, in the first year I didn’t know that he was addicted to porn, but I mean like anything in any of the church materials, any marriage books, like I was reading all this different stuff because we were fighting initially and then, and you know, the whole love, serve, forgive, like focus on, it’s always focus on yourself, you know, don’t be critical. And, and I don’t think that’s just our church and I just, that’s something I’m really angry about too, because I was so sincere and this 19 year old trying really hard to have a good marriage and I couldn’t see or understand what was going on. And nowhere in all the things that I read, there was nothing about like, hey, love, serve and forgive. But if you see these red flags, like if you’re bringing up concerns and the person doesn’t listen or you know, sincerely take it seriously or try to make changes or if you have someone who’s lying to you or there was nothing in the materials that said anything like that. And I think that’s a huge deal. Like especially if you’re saying that you care about celestial marriage or heavenly, you know, marriage that’s supposed to last forever, then why wouldn’t you focus on like, what would that look like? Like let’s just hold onto it with like, you know, the white knuckling it versus like, let’s actually try to have a relationship that’s heavenly. So that seems insincere to me.

Clergy, Faith Communities, and Abusive MarriagesAnne (11:49):
Talk a lot about what would a heavenly marriage or an eternal marriage or in our faith a celestial marriage look like. But guess what they never talk about? I don’t think any religion does. I’ve just thought of this. So this is like an epiphany for me. Are you guys ready for this? Here we go. That no one ever talks about what would a hell marriage look like – right? No one’s like this type of marriage is a marriage made in hell and you would be in hell if you lived in it and you do not want this type of marriage. They never talk about that, which is interesting. And that is abuse. But what they do say is abuse is bad. We don’t tolerate abuse,

Claire (12:24):
But they never say, and I went and read the most recent handbooks and stuff, they don’t even mention, they’ll say abusers tend to be people that you know, and they list all, you know, they list parents, sibling, uncle, they don’t list spouse. Even the patterns of abuse, it’s more like child molester predator grooming. It doesn’t, it’s not the same pattern as domestic abuse. And I’m like, if you’re really against abuse, then you should be educating what the patterns look like because I just needed a little bit of information.

“This Is Abuse – How Are You Going to NOT Tolerate This?” Anne (12:53):
Yeah. The other is we don’t tolerate abuse. I believe that, that they believe it. Right? Like I, I don’t think they want people to be abused is what I’m trying to say. Like I, I genuinely think they’re like, we know abuse exists, we want it to stop. We don’t want people to be abused. The question is how do you not tolerate it? Yeah. So that’s what I’ve started asking, like report the abuse, say, Hey, this is the abuse, to your pastor or your bishop or whoever, and then say, this is abuse, how are you going to not tolerate this? Just follow it up with that question. How are you going to not tolerate it? And I did that with my own super well-meaning leadership and I, they believe me and they are like on my side. And the problem is they don’t know what to do and it’s like, what do they do?

(13:41):
Right? Like they don’t have the legal ability to be like, oh, okay, well the kids should stop seeing him or something, you know, like that has to go through the courts and the courts aren’t recognizing it either. And so although they might release them from their calling or something of that nature, they also cannot stop someone from being abusive. So the thing, the only thing they could do is help a victim get to safety. Like if she has boundaries that somehow they could help enforce, maybe help with house payment or with groceries or something. Right? But like in terms of how they’re not gonna tolerate abuse. That’s the question. And I, I don’t know the answer either. If someone came to me today and said, how would you do it? I would be like, well maybe just release them from their callings, you know? I don’t know, it’s hard.

Knowledge is Power – Clergy MUST Learn to Identify Domestic Abuse Claire (14:29):
I feel like knowledge is power and so why don’t you empower women to get out of it themselves by actually teaching absolutely what it would look like. And it doesn’t have to be on you. Like let, I mean help them when they ask you, but why don’t you at least say this is what it looks like. This is what abuse looks like. And and I’m sure they’ve seen like the what worst of the predators. Right. And so they know, they know how horrible it can be. And so why wouldn’t you put that like, you know, here’s, here’s love. So forgive. But you know, if you’re seeing these type of patterns, that’s a huge problem.

Anne (15:02):
Right? Just read Why Does He Do That?How is that hard? You know, you just came up with it. Yeah. I’m like, I don’t know what they would do. And you just came up with it. They would tell women, I’m not sure, I don’t know if you’re being abused, but here’s a helpful book. Why don’t you read it and you tell me.

Empower Women to Become Educated About AbuseClaire (15:18):
Yeah, that would be a great thing. Or anything, anything. It’s a pattern of control coming out of entitlement or you know, any pattern of dehumanizing or not listening to you or even there’s the boundaries in dating book and they have lists of red flags and yellow flags that you look for when you’re dating. But I’m like, why do you stop looking for that when you’re dating? Like why wouldn’t you say, hey, if you have someone who’s consistently lying or dehumanizing you or one of the things was apologizes without changing, like if you’re seeing that, then that’s a red, that’s a red flag.

Anne (15:51):
Including in marriage.

Claire (15:54):
Yes.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (15:54):
That’s a really interesting thing. The, the dating principles, they’re like, Hey look for this stuff in dating and then it’s like but once you’re married, like just forgive and serve. The same principles that you use for dating should also apply when you’re married. How hard is this? I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which also has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us. It bumps trauma mama husband drama up in the Amazon algorithm. And even if women don’t purchase the book, it helps them find this podcast which is free to everyone.

Prioritize Safety Over MarriageClaire (17:14):
So I feel like the fixation Chris Moles says that’s, we’ve made marriage an idol and, and Leslie Vernick says, God doesn’t value the sanctity of marriage more than the women or the people who are in it. I think the focus on we’re just gonna preserve the marriage as an institution instead of focus on helping people have marriages that are healthy. And if that was really your focus, then wouldn’t you teach about red flags and abuse patterns more specifically?

Anne (17:43):
This is James 1:27 “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” That’s interesting. That polluted by the world part because that’s also believing and being manipulated by abusers. Here’s the new living translation, “Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.” So meaning like actually saying the truth, the truth is this man is abusive and these, this woman needs help and she’s gonna need help in the form of physical, maybe food or housing.

Claire (18:25):
We talk about helping the defenseless and if you are in an abusive marriage and you can’t see it, I mean that’s where I was at for more than two decades and that’s a very vulnerable place to be in.

Anne (18:38):
Yeah. Being abused and not knowing you’re being abused.

Marriage Advice Does NOT Help Abused WomenClaire (18:40):
Yeah. Let’s educate about that. And I was sincerely, you know, reading all these communication things and marriage books.

Anne (18:48):
Yeah, I did the same thing for seven years. I did pornography addiction recovery where I like screaming and yelling metaphorically and raising my hands and being like, help, help. I need help! And going to all these therapists and all these clergy people and, and no one tells me until the very end when he’s like, this is abuse. The one guy seven years later who then wouldn’t see me after that, he wouldn’t be my therapist after that, but geez. But like that one time, like nobody else for that seven years says abuse. Yeah. They don’t talk about emotional abuse. They don’t, you know, nothing. It’s pretty crazy.

Claire (19:22):
That’s why I feel so frustrated.

Anne (19:24):
. Yeah.

Lying to Your Wife, Takes Away Her Consent & VoiceClaire (19:25):
Especially when we knew like that he had a pornography problem from after the first year. And so, and that’s what I love that the Omar Minwalla model that, that I found from you guys was the whole compulsive entitled sexuality and the lying. And that’s one of the huge things where you guys have rocked my world was the whole, if you are lying , if you’re lying about porn, besides it just, if you’re lying in general, you’re not safe. But if you’re lying about porn, then it’s abuse because you’re not allowing her consent. And I read this quote yesterday, lying is about controlling someone else’s reality, hoping that what they don’t know won’t hurt you. And what it means to tell the truth is it’s to give someone else her freedom, to allow her to have a reaction, even if it leads to negative consequences for you to give her the voice that lying takes away.

Anne (20:09):
There’s a church talk, it’s one of my favorites by one of our apostles who has now passed away, but he tells this story about how he loved football and he had the football and he was just like two inches away from the end zone and the whole pile was on top of him and he could push the football a little bit more and no one would ever know. And I don’t know what happened in that game if they won or not, but one of the things he said was, do the right thing and tell the truth and let the consequences happen. If you tell the truth and just accept the consequences of that, like you will be more blessed than you try to control the narrative or control the situation. You’ll also continue to have the opportunity to repent and change if you live in reality because you can’t alter God’s reality. He knows what it is. Essentially. Lying is also trying to what? Alter it for God. Like that’s not gonna work. So anyway, I’ve always thought that like tell the truth and let the consequence and just accept what the consequence of the truth is even if it’s not good for you.

Claire (21:15):
Yeah. But I think that’s with the emotional immaturity going along with abuse that you can’t handle someone else thinking that you’re bad or seeing something bad that you’ve done. So then you lie to yourself and lie to other people about your intentions or what you’ve done and so you can kind of keep hiding, hiding from yourself cause you can’t handle the not being validated I guess.

“I Thought He Was Just ‘Hangry'” Anne (21:37):
So while you’re reading these communication books and while you’re, you know, doing like whatever else, what reasons did you give for his behavior? Just that he needed sex, like stuff like that? Or what did you think at the time?

Claire (21:49):
So I thought that he was just like hangry, like when you’re fasting – I thought, I mean I thought he was being a little bit bratty, but I didn’t, I didn’t think it was control coming out of entitlement. I just thought it was like him being hangry. And I also thought that it was my job to not have sex with him when he is being a jerk. But it was my job just to kind of like manage him sexually even though I wouldn’t have said that. I mean it’s both of our jobs to be kind to each other, but then I need to be available as long as he’s not being a jerk is kind of what I thought. And so I would try to have sex with him before he would be a jerk .

Anne (22:26):
So like if I have sex with him at this like right now –

Claire (22:30):
Then 48 to 72 hours. Not kidding, –

Anne (22:34):
Then things will be better for me.

The Moment Claire Realizes The TruthClaire (22:36):
Yep. Yes. Wow. Or at least we won’t fight and I can avoid the drama and all that cause he’s gonna get hangry and then he is gonna get grouchy and I just didn’t see until August actually that it was a choice. Cause his therapist, we had him do a sex fast and he was still being manipulative and pushing me to do things even when he was doing a sex fast and he wasn’t hangry and all that. And at the same time I was reading the Lund Bancroft book and I was like, holy crap, .

Anne (23:07):
Yeah.

Claire (23:08):
And he, and he also owned too. I can see that I’m manipulating you because I’m, I say cause he was trying to get me to do like heavy making out and stuff and he said, I say that I’m doing this cause I want to make you happy, but when you’re saying that you don’t wanna do it, then I’m still pushing you to do it. So obviously I’m, so he actually owned it, but then I was like, I, I think we’re done , we’re actually in in-house separation and he’s in classes, we’re in separate therapy. So he is working on being honest and he’s being really humble and handling a lot of criticism, but I think the honesty part is really, really difficult.

Anne (23:43):
Honesty is a skill that they haven’t really learned how to do.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouClaire (23:45):
And that’s one of the things I find fascinating about that Omar Minwalla model, because it’s the whole secret, was it called secret sexual basement? It’s where since you’re kind of living over this, you feel like things aren’t safe, so you kind of turn off, you’re like, well, but I must be illogical or something there. Or it’s just the decades of emotional abuse. Like I’ve kind of operated kind of like a robot. Like instead of how do I feel about things, I’m like, whats the right thing? What’s the wrong thing? Oh, I’m not too busy and I like sex actually. So, but it, it’s an out of a caretaking mode instead of like, is this what I really choose? I wasn’t treating myself like a person either.

Anne (24:22):
. Exactly. Even if you really feel like you’re choosing it, would you choose that if you knew the truth? Yeah. For example. Right. So there are moments where I felt like I was really choosing that thing. I really wanted to have sex and then later I find out, wait, had I known he had used porn the day before and lied to my face even though he was grooming me. And so I thought he was very loving. I would not have wanted to have sex if I would’ve had all the information that I needed to give consent. Claire and I are going to pause the conversation here. Join us next week to continue our conversation. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Do you feel a pit in your stomach when your phone dings a text message alert?

When you see his name in your email inbox, do your hands shake?

Many victims experience trauma when the abuser initiates contact – whether in person or over text, phone, and/or email.

Anne is on the podcast with Jim and Bob. Learn the basics of strategic communication and join us for our Strategy Workshop to learn more.

The Abuser Uses Communication to Harm You

“I was texting with him, but it just got so out of control and every time he would text, my heart rate would go up. I would just go into like full trauma mode.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Abusers use communication – whether in person or through technology – to cause you distress.

Victims, including Anne, report experiencing physical trauma responses from messages that they’ve received from their abusers, including:

• Nausea and vomiting
• Shaking/tremors
• Clenched jaws
• Headaches
• Panic attacks
• Trouble sleeping
• Generalized nerve pain
• Pelvic pain

The psychological and emotional affect of abusive communication (even when it looks “nice”) is serious – but it’s important to note that the abuser may also be affecting your physical well-being.

What Are The “Types” of Abusive Messages?In the BTR.ORG Strategy Workshop, Jane details the types of abusive messages that abusers send to victims – in Anne’s interview with Jim and Bob, Bob explains that his ex-son-in-law sent messages that contained:

“…legal language and intimidating language… religious language…”

Bob, Anne’s Father

Some abusers attempt to silence victims by using complicated, nonsense verbiage that may appear intimidating – and this can launch victims into trauma.

Our Strategy Workshop can help you debunk the fear surrounding the abuser’s messages and help you see reality.

No One Else Sees The Abuse? We Still Believe You.

“He sounded so nice and he uses legalese and he never swore or wrote in all caps or anything. So on the face of it, it looked okay. It didn’t seem abusive.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Many women in our community have expressed trauma due to the abuser appearing to be “such a nice guy” to others, including family, friends, clergy, and others.

This can continue through communication – the victim may receive a message absolutely dripping with abuse, but if another person reads it, they may interpret it to be completely healthy. Perhaps they accuse the victim of being dramatic or paranoid.

At BTR.ORG, we know that YOU know. We trust you. You don’t have to prove anything to us. We are already on your side. Join our BTR.ORG Group Sessions today and enroll in our Strategy Workshop. We love you.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. If you’re new to the BTR podcast, you may wanna consider starting with the oldest episode first and then making your way forward chronologically. If you do that, you’ll take the journey with me as I learn more and more. You’ll hear a change in my voice as I grow in confidence and skills. It’ll be like a friend holding your hand as you make your own way to peace.

Jim is back today with my dad, so if you didn’t listen to last week’s episode, listen to that first and then join us here today. We’re just continuing the conversation. As I listened to this afterwards, I was thinking about the necessity of getting help and how so many women don’t reach out for help because they don’t want people to be mad or upset. And in this episode, my dad kind of talks about how he had a bad attitude at one point, and my mom, thank goodness, was just like, well, just let him have a bad attitude. You need help. And then I was talking to my sister about it and she was saying that their attitude is their choice. But if they will help you, even with a bad attitude and you need help, it’s okay. It’s okay to get help. You’ll hear about that in today’s episode.

Abusive Text Messages Jim (03:50):
You know, one thing that that happened after the separation, there had been a group text between his parents and my wife and I and the two of them, and it was mostly, you know, sending pictures of grandkids. Well, when she left, you know, he blew up through the text. So we said, okay, let’s put it in here in the family group, thinking that, you know, in front of his parents, he wouldn’t be such a jerk. But that didn’t work at all. He was just as bad of a jerk there. But through all of that, you know, we got to see what the real, the real thing underneath was like, you know, it made, its kind of wonder how we’d been . What I tried to tell some of my friends was like, how did I let the wolf in? How did this happen? You know, one, one of my good friends that I talked to like a week in that first week and explained it to him, he’s pretty direct and he’s, he quoted it this way. He said, one of us loves my daughter and it ain’t you. It was his summary of what was going on.

Anne (05:11):
Yeah, thank goodness I like right when he left, I was texting with him, but it just got so out of control and every time he would text, my heart rate would go up. I would just go into like full trauma mode. So my dad, and I’ll let him tell the story, wrote him and said, Hey, you are not gonna like talk to her anymore. I’ve instructed her to block you on her phone from now on. You have to go through me.

Bob (05:41):
Was that after the divorce or before?

When Family Begins to See The Abuser For Who He Really IsAnne (05:44):
It was after. So the divorce was final. And so my dad sent that message to him and then after that for years, the messages went through him. And can you talk about that dad, and also like what your thoughts were of his messages and the way that he was, like, you seeing it with your own eyes?

Bob (06:06):
Oh yeah. He was very trifling and he’s a lawyer, so he, he was using legal language and intimidating language in, in, and it was in, in that time that I was in that pivot mode that we talked about of, you know, how do I help, you know, is there and I was still not where I should have been in terms of totally as supportive of, of Anne. But it snapped in me. One of one of those emails that snapped and I drafted a email back to him that was, it was stronger than what you’re saying cause it was he, he had been using some church language in there in terms of his responsibilities to the church and whatever. And, and I, and I just debunked that.

Anne (06:58):
You said your religiosity, I remember that word. You were like, I’m not gonna put up with this ridiculous religiosity.

“I Was Really Grateful When I Saw That Message That He Wrote” Bob (07:04):
Yeah, that’s exactly what I said. And, and then I will not allow you to continue to, to abuse and through your communications interactions and from from now on, you’ll communicate with me directly. And, and that again, went on for a couple of years. I, I think I made the right decision and, but it was the most important part of that email and me doing that was supporting Anne and how it, it made her feel and what it did for her psychic and her ability to cope and to get up in the morning and go about what she needed to do. And it wasn’t ideal in terms of the communication, but it it did some amazing things.

Anne (07:56):
Yeah. I was really grateful when I saw that message that he wrote. He’s like, I’m gonna send this. I was like, yay. Because it was just so like, direct and I don’t know how to describe it. It wasn’t this like trying to be nice or trying to like, you know, negotiate or anything like that. It’s like she is blocking you on her phone. I have told her to do this and this is what is happening and I’m not putting up with this anymore. And it just felt really good. And I did, I blocked him on my phone and I blocked him on emails. And that’s what happened. Like, he didn’t really have a choice cause he couldn’t get ahold of me. And so he would call sometimes or text my dad, but most of the time it was through email.

Enroll in Our BTR.ORG Strategy Workshop!Bob (08:39):
Well the, any texting he did to me were immediate kind of things. Like somebody was late or whatever, and it was just, where are you? I mean, if there was no communication other than just that.

Anne (08:49):
And after that he started attacking my dad and saying that my dad was a bully.

Bob (08:53):
I don’t remember he did. And, and what I did we didn’t, I thought about it at the time, but not very much. And that is whether it was legal under the divorce decree for this to happen for me to inter insert myself into the communication link as I did. And now many years later, I think it probably was illegal, but the consequences legally were so minimal. I mean, no, judge was gonna –

Choosing Strategic Communication Anne (09:25):
Yeah, I don’t think it was illegal per se. It was just like the, it did come back to bite me in a custody situation later. And that was two years ago maybe. And during that they were like, this isn’t good. And at that point I started using Our Family Wizard and since it had been five years of communicating with him through my dad, I was a lot stronger then. And now I communicate strategically with him through Our Family Wizard. And it works fantastic, but I also have had enough space, the divorce was final and I had enough strength to be able to do it now. And now I deal with him just fine. In fact, now I kind of enjoy it because I, I can see what he is doing and I know how to, to combat it. But when you’re, when you’re in, when you’re in trauma and probably where Sarah is right now, like thinking, how do I explain this?

(10:18):
Or, you know, how do I respond to this message is so overwhelming. And so to have the support of my dad and my parents and to get help with those messages was great. Also, just having them read them and validate me and be like, this is insane. He’s insane. You know? And he sounded so nice and he uses legalese and he, he never swore or like wrote in all caps or anything. So it, like, on the face of it, it, it looked okay. Like it didn’t seem abusive per se, but if you really read it and understood what he was saying, it was awful. And most of the time included lies and manipulation and gaslighting and stuff.

No Kids? Go No Contact! Bob (10:55):
And entitlement. I mean, everything was, he was entitled to this and to that and to the other. I mean, it was just, but anyway, I think there’s some upsides and some downsides to what I did. I would do it over again. Had I had the, the opportunity, even knowing what I know now.

Jim (11:11):
I think if there was, if there’s no kids involved, I’d think you just try to make it so you could never, never have to communicate with him again.

Anne (11:18):

Absolutely.

Jim (11:21):
Yeah, it’s just with kids, you’re –

Anne (11:23):
Forced to communicate with an emotional and psychological abuser if you have children. What communication is she using with him right now?

Jim (11:32):
She’s using that The Wizard. Cuz I, I think I heard that on one of your things.

The BTR.ORG Strategy Workshop Can Help You Learn How to Protect Your Communication Anne (11:35):
Yeah, I used to recommend that and now I recommend Our Family Wizard. Has she taken our Strategy Workshop? In that workshop we talk about how to message them, the types of tactics that we use because they’re trying to gain power over you. It neutralizes that and enables you to level the playing field, these types of strategic tactics. And I actually developed that with the BTR team after working inside of Our Family Wizard and being like, he’s still doing it. Like this is still an impossible situation. And just feeling the hopelessness of thinking, are you kidding me? I’m divorced and I’m still gonna have to deal with this abuse the rest of my life. This is not fair. You know, I was so angry about it. And after getting over the anger and like really praying about it and asking my team like, there’s got to be a better way. We came up with a strategic way of communicating and it has set me free and I’m so grateful for it. So I, I rarely now never do I ever now call you and I’m like, Hey, sent this awful message. Like, does that ever happen anymore?

Bob (12:43):
No.

Anne (12:46):
I’m not as like traumatically upset, right? I’m not like desperate and like traumatized and just feeling awful. So that might help her, Jim, to know how to strategically message him.

Jim (13:11):
Yeah. I think being married to him for those years, she developed some of that already. But this, this might be a good suggestion for however refined that a little bit more. It’s good to have particular rules.

“I Was the World’s Worst Victim” Anne (13:24):
Well, and that’s good because a lot of women did develop those strategies. I was like the world’s worst victim because I, I know like he, he even told me once, he said, you never do what you’re supposed to do. Like apparently you’re, the abuser does something, it has a goal in mind and then the victim is supposed to be like, oh, that made him mad, so I’m not gonna do that again. Cause I don’t wanna make him mad. I was like, if I give into this then he’s just gonna get madder, so heck no. Like, I don’t care if it makes you mad, I’m gonna do it anyway. And he really hated it. I was really the world’s worst victim.

Bob (14:00):
. He does have some strong resentments towards me, , which are just fine. and, and playing that role in taking some of that flack I think was helpful.

Jim (14:15):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I I received plenty of that. I mean, right soon after she left his message was something along the lines of, yeah, you’re the last person in the world I’ll take marriage advice from or something.

Do Fathers Feel Afraid of the Financial Responsibility of Divorce? Anne (14:29):
So can we get to like a really sensitive or maybe not sensitive topic? I’m not sure it, you guys might be like, oh, I don’t wanna admit this. Or maybe not, but can we talk about the weight of maybe financial responsibility that you may feel as a father with your daughter in this situation? And how maybe wanting to avoid, like having to help her financially or something weighed into your decisions and that type of thing. Can we talk about that?

Jim (15:06):
Sure, sure. I think to be, to be really frank about that, I think that’s what a lot of women struggle with because culturally nobody wants to take that responsibility back on. And, you know, and knowing this has opened my eyes to previous divorces and different things over the years with relatives and friends to see things in a different light. And some of those poor women were left on their own. And, and I can see it now. And, and, and I wasn’t able to really support them because I didn’t understand. And but yeah, it’s a, it’s a major concern. I’ll just, let me tell you a brief story friend of mine that I was talking to telling about this, he talked about the in church, the the preacher basically getting up and I guess he’s a divorce attorney and he’s talking about how, you know, divorce equals poverty in his mind, that was his definition of it.

(16:08):
And I was telling my friend, I say, yeah, and some things are worse than poverty. And that’s, I think the point that you know, my daughter got to is like, you know, I can’t take this anymore. And so come what may move forward. Now, fortunately for, for us, she’s towards the older part of our family and the younger part of our family was staying in the home. And once she brought three kids here, they quickly found a place to live. But we had room, you know, so for that, from that aspect, you know, it works out. But at the same time, if we weren’t able to take her here and him holding onto the house and you know, her not wanting to be there with him there, I guess her options were to go to an abuse shelter. I don’t know, do you know what I mean? If what, what women’s options are. But it’s not pretty and it’s a very trapped kind of scenario. And, and I’ve even looked at, at some different situations with suicide and different things that have happened that I’ve been aware of. And I wonder if that wasn’t the cause of some of these different things.

“I Just Need Help” Anne (17:26):
Do you wanna talk about that? Because I remember you telling me, and I was mad about this, I don’t know if I hurt my feelings or like, I haven’t really processed it, but you said something like, well now like now I’m gonna have to be responsible for you. And you said something like that and I was ticked cause I was like 37. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I just need help. Like, I am responsible for myself. I don’t know like what you think you’re saying in that like, I will figure this out, but like, I need help. And you saying that like really ticked me off.

Bob (18:02):
Yeah. It’s the wrong thing for me to say and I repent , I’m saying that but it was part of that transitional process of coming to accept what you were facing and and supporting you unequivocally. And you know, I’m financially okay and I had the resources to help. But it, it, there was a reluctance in me to to, to step in and, and do it. Helped a lot when I finally made that transition. My wife was there from the beginning, so she was a great help to me in getting me where I needed to be.

Jim (18:43):
That’s one thing for sure is my wife was much ahead of me in figuring things out as well.

Unequivocal Support – Emotionally And Financially Bob (18:48):

But she needed the immediate support and the, both emotionally and financially and, and not the the, the reluctance there. You could put it in the emotional side of what did you, you know, Anne, what did you do to cause this, this is partly your fault. You know, those kinds of comments which were terribly hurtful and and inappropriate and wrong on the other side is the financial of oh, now what have you done? Now I’ve gotta take care of you. Which I’d said to you, which was terribly damaging. So again, if there are those of us who are in this situation and can catch this lesson early and make that transition earlier, it would be much preferred and, and very helpful to the victim. I, I’m just crushed. And those women that don’t have the resources, either their parents are not in a position to help them or aren’t, are unwilling to help them and what do they do? And there’s lots and lots of those people in that situation that are suffering a great deal emotionally and financially because they don’t have that support system.

Anne (20:04):
I do wanna acknowledge that, cause so many of our listeners, they do not have a supportive father. I mean, even to hear you dad say like, like me would be like, that really made me mad when you said that, but you were helping me, right? I mean, you were helping me. And I’m like, have I have the privilege and the liberty to be like, it made me really mad to get mad at my dad when he was helping me when he said that. But women, like, they don’t have anything. They’re, they don’t have even maybe a mother who would understand. And so acknowledging that and letting them know that our hearts go out to anybody in that situation. And it’s really hard. It’s, it’s an uphill battle to free or deliver yourself from. It’s very, very hard.

Bob (20:49):
I don’t know that there was anything that we weren’t providing for. I mean, you, you were being taken care of. It was the attitude.

Anne (20:57):
Yes, I agree.

Bob (20:58):
And it, there’s a terrible situation that is on my conscience.

Anne’s Costco StoryAnne (21:04):
Is it Costco? Yeah. I’m thinking about that too. I was gonna bring it up. Okay. So I’ll, I’ll lay the foundation here. My family loves Costco and I, it was my dad’s birthday and it was also near Valentine’s Day and I was living off of food orders. Like I had no money to buy any, anything extra. And so we went to Costco and I just started piling stuff in the cart. Cause I was like, this is my chance to like get some stuff and sorry I’m crying cause it was Valentine’s Day. And there was like nobody around to get me a Valentine’s present. So I was like, I’m getting this plant and I’m getting these pajamas. And I was nervous about it, but I was just like, I’m doing this anyway. And my dad was kind of mad, but he did it. He bought it for me. You weren’t like yelling at me or anything, but there was just this hesitancy like, like what? She just expects me to pay for all this stuff in this cart. And I was like, heck yes, I do . Anyway. Do you wanna talk about that?

Bob (22:02):
Well I’m, yeah. There was that reluctance –

Anne (22:06):
And entitlement on my part that I was like, I can pile all this stuff in the cart and I’m gonna make my dad pay for it. So there’s entitlement on my part.

Bob (22:15):
But there was a history there as well

Anne (22:18):
Of, oh, is this where you’re gonna go blame me for my part in it?

Bob (22:22):
No before you were married, , if you could get me at Costco then –

Anne (22:28):
Then you would buy stuff –

Bob (22:29):
Then I’d buy the whole cart and yeah.

“It Was Just a Little Thing That Was Important” Anne (22:32):
And never complain about it. Never, never complained about it. This was before I was married. It was sort of like, it was sort of like, okay, she’s single, so whatever she spits in the cart, I’ll buy it for her. Then I get married and now apparently that doesn’t happen anymore because I do my own grocery shopping or whatever. So I went, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t entitled, I was just expecting what I’d always gotten. I’m kidding. But like, but you were grumpy about it and that was, and you were like, and on my birthday you made me pay for a plant.

Bob (23:02):
It was just a little thing that was important.

Anne (23:06):
Well it was like

Bob (23:07):
A little, I mean it was very important but it was symbolic.

Anne (23:11):
To me it felt like, like I could just relax for a minute and buy a plant and buy some pajamas when I hadn’t been able to get anything extra. For what? A long time. A long time. So that, that like financial burden that a dad might feel that would either lead him to maybe help but perhaps have a bad attitude about it or not help at all or help with a great attitude, either way. One of the things I want dads to know is that the solution isn’t like, okay, well then we gotta get her married to someone else so someone else can take care of her. Like women today can take care of themselves and they just need the opportunity. Like does she wanna go to law school? You know, like, just like you put the, the time and effort into your son’s careers.

“What Career Would Be Good For Her?” (24:07):
Think about like think about her in that way. What career would be good for her? How can she support herself and her family and putting the time and effort and support into making sure that she can be financially independent and support her family. I chose BTR as my way of supporting my family and my kids and, and myself and my dad was financially helpful. I did BTR like with no money at all for what, three or four years. I didn’t get paid anything. My, my dad supported me through that and I was really grateful and my church did too. And so BTR is it here in, in part because of that. And my mom was really helpful cuz she was like, there’s no way that she can do BTR cuz you know, I was working eight hour, you know, 10 hour days, 14 hour days sometimes building the website, doing all the stuff that I did. And there was no way I could have done it had I had to work another job. Also, my kids were really young so they could watch Octonauts while I built BTR at home.

Bob (25:06):
, my general theme through this Jim, is that again, transition point where you, you become unconditionally supportive financially and emotionally for the abused victim, whether it’s a daughter or whatever and I was slow getting there and I, and I regret it.

“Some of Your Loved Ones Might Not Be Safe Enough to Interact With” Anne (25:32):
One thing I wanna talk about is that transition period for just a minute is that this person has always been inappropriate to be married to, right? They’ve been abusive since the very beginning. And so she has been in an abusive relationship since before she even married him, since the moment she met him. And so she’s also been trying to make it work. She’s also been trying to like manage it and make her family work. And so she also is going through that transition period. So for you listeners out there, thinking about the transition that you had and to recognizing that it was abuse to understanding what was going on, to realizing you needed to separate yourself from the harm and then all of us feel anger or I think righteous anger toward like, why don’t people get this? Or understand, just realize that you had to go through that period to realize what they were like and so do your loved ones. And some of them might come around later. Some of your loved ones might not be safe enough to interact with. Like you might have to distance yourself from them until they understand because interacting with them will harm you more and make it harder for you to get to safety.

Bob (26:37):
Some of ’em may never come around at all.

Anne (26:38):
Exactly. And that’s really hard when you not only have to divorce your spouse, abusive spouse, but you also recognize through that process that some of your loved ones or some of your own family are in that category and you also have to not divorce them per se, but separate yourself from them as well. Jim, did you have any other questions?

Why Do Abusers Want 50/50 Custody? Jim (26:59):
I mean, I probably have a million, you know, cause we’re still wrangling through the legal things and the, and whatnot to try to get something set. But you know, at this point he seems set on this 50/50, seems more symbolic than anything else cause I can’t imagine that he can keep working and keep, keep the kids, you know, they’re still young, half the time.

Anne (27:21):
My guess is the reason why he wants 50 50, he is, there’s two reasons. Number one is to hurt her and the second one is so he doesn’t have to pay child support. So those are the only two reasons.

Bob (27:33):
Well, there’s a third reason.

Anne (27:34):
Oh, what’s the third reason?

Bob (27:35):
It’s the law. I mean the law is, I is very specific in leading to 50 50. If you can’t have, if you can’t negotiate something else, right, that’s where it goes. And so there’s an entitlement factor that you experienced with your ex.

Anne (27:52):
Right – that I’m entitled to 50%.

Bob (27:55):
Right. Maybe he didn’t want them that much, but he wasn’t going to, to back down in the face of I’m entitled to 50% mm-hmm. and therefore I’m gonna get it.

Anne (28:06):
Yeah.

Jim (28:07):
My fatherly rights.

Bob (28:09):
Oh, you’ve heard that one?

“He Tries to Use Words to Manipulate” Jim (28:12):
. So this my, my son-in-law, not an attorney, but he’s like a wordsmith by nature and so he loves to pretend a lot of times he pulls some pretty funny ones. But yeah, he tries to use words to manipulate, tries to use bigger words than he knows what means lot.

Bob (28:30):
Mm-Hmm. . No, that sounds familiar. That’s one of the motivations I had for intervening and taking over the communication was that kind of wordsmithing.

Anne (28:40):
My view is that the, because the, basically the divorce process is like a cage and the abusers love it. They like to be in the divorce process because then she’s still kind of stuck to him, right? She’s in this cage with him and she wants to get out, she can see what’s happening, but she can’t get out because she’s stuck in this cage through the divorce process. Once that is signed, then he isn’t, he doesn’t have as much control or power over the situation. And so he doesn’t want it to be finalized. Like he wants to drag it out. And when I, I don’t know about your particular abusive son-in-law, but in general this is like fun for them. And so things do settle down after that is signed because then they, they lose quite a bit of control, but they don’t wanna let it go and the divorce process is part of that.

Can You Settle Out of Court? (29:36):
So trying to settle out of court through a settlement, I, I am a fan of, of not taking any, like literally ask them for nothing. Like don’t ask them for child support, don’t ask them for anything and just get out and figure out how to support your own family by yourself. Cause my feeling is any, anything that they have that they can hold over your head, they’re going to the rest of your life being able to just fully let go and not, not look to them or not think that they owe you. And they do, they owe you a lot, right? So this isn’t like, do they owe you something? They absolutely do, but just for your own freedom, being able to say, I don’t want anything from this person, I am going to be able to support myself, has been the view that I have taken. And I think that it has helped me. I’m not saying everyone would be capable of doing that or women shouldn’t as like not get child support or anything, but it’s something to think about only because they’re always gonna use anything that, that you feel like they owe you as a way to entrap you to be able to control you. This type of abuser is really classic at that. So that’s something to consider.

Jim (30:52):
Not everybody will have that luxury.

Anne (30:54):
Yeah. Not, not everybody has that luxury. It’s true.

Jim (30:58):
But it is a, a good, a good long-term kind of direction. I mean they’ll, they’ll always have the kids to manipulate you with even as the kids get older. I’ve, for one example, when this happened, I called my mom to tell her and all I had to do was bring up the name of her best friend that she grew up with, ex-husband name. And I said, I think we have one of these in our family. She’s oh, oh my goodness. Who, who? And then I told her and she’s like, just started to click in her mind, I can see that. And it just all came, came to that she could see it. And those kind of people like this, this guy in particular that was her friend’s ex he passed away recently, but his whole life, you know, he, he manipulated with the adult kids pretty much to the end.

How Have Others Reacted? Anne (31:49):
Yeah. And they’re gonna do that. Have you been surprised or pleased at how clergy or other people have reacted to your daughter’s situation?

Jim (32:00):
A little surprised.

Anne (32:01):
Yeah. in what way?

Jim (32:04):
Like they’re, I mean kind of the comment was something along the lines of well, maybe you can learn to be a little stronger and they can learn to listen.

Anne (32:14):
No help at all. Yeah. Also, at least in our faith, and Jim shares our faith, clergy’s supposed to be like a righteous judge, right? And like judge the situation and hold people accountable in some cases. And there seems to be a complete lack of accountability and belief. I, every time I bring it up, they’ll be like, well, I don’t know if I’d use the word abuse. I mean, yeah, he’s acting like a jerk, but, and I’m like, well the church and this doesn’t help them like me anymore, then I get liked less when I do this. But I said, well, I took the church training and it said I was supposed to report abuse and that you would not tolerate it. And so I am reporting it. What are you gonna do to not tolerate it? And they just kind of like stare at me and blink and they’re like, well, we don’t tolerate it. And I’m like, okay, well then what are you gonna do to not tolerate it? And they’re like and then I end up being disliked even more by the clergy. So that’s fun.

Has Clergy Been Helpful? Jim (33:09):
, my, my experience has been unless somebody, and maybe this is, you know, between a rock and a hard place, but unless somebody’s willing to admit their wrongs, they don’t seem to really ever do anything.

Anne (33:22):
Okay. So if they don’t admit it, then it’s like, well, he says he wasn’t abusive and history is different and we don’t really know who to believe, right? So that’s that situation. If he does admit it, generally speaking, the reports that we get from the victims is that they’re like, oh, well he does admit he was abusive and he’s willing to repent. And so he’s repentant, so I don’t know why you’re not forgiving him. So they, it’s like lose-lose. Okay. So he admitted he’s abusive, so you’re not even gonna release him from his calling. You’re not even gonna like nothing. But then they won’t do it even if there’s multiple witnesses either. So there’s like no accountability, but well that’s probably not true. There might be some bishop out there who, who does hold abuse accountable. But from our, from my experience at BTR, the overarching theme is there’s no accountability for abusers in the church especially if it’s special and psychological abuse.

Jim (34:16):
Here’s one thing I’ll say is that this whole stepping on eggshells kind of thing is what my daughter was living with. And then, you know, we were living with it too because we wouldn’t really be reluctant to bring up anything. I think my wife one time mentioned something about that the son-in-law should get a better relationship with the three-year-old or something just in passing to my wife. Well he was in the next room, overheard it and he took it out on her later, you know what I mean? Just cause my wife had said that, you know. And so I think a lot of times the church does the same thing. Oh, we don’t want to offend any of these people. They might leave or something.

Identifying Misogyny Anne (34:54):
It feels that there’s that and then there’s this view that like, wait, like she must not understand because he is such a good guy because he shows up at church and he gives really good lessons and when he talks in our congregation, it’s like such a good talk and he shows up for service projects. So he’s a good guy. I don’t know why his wife doesn’t understand what a good guy is. Right. There’s also that.

Jim (35:16):
Yeah. Our, our society is very based on good speaking and if you’re good at speaking seems like you can get away with lots of things.

Anne (35:23):
It’s also just flat out misogyny that they believe the man and his persona and his image over what just a woman’s account, right.

Jim (35:33):
Right. And, and I’ve, and, and I don’t know how you feel about Bob, but this whole scenario has made me examine myself as a husband and sad to say I’ve made some improvements because that misogyny or whatever you want to call it, is, it goes through it. Our, our whole, our whole culture.

Bob (35:53):
I totally agree with you. I’m with you there all the way and I’ve had to do some real introspection.

Jim (36:02):
So there’s some good that comes out of it, I guess.

Your Daughter Is Her Own Person Anne (36:04):
And, and for your daughter’s sake, I will say like after the divorce is final and she has wings to figure out who she is and what kind of life that she wants and it’s working toward providing that for her and her children, she will gain that strength and this will be like a time of her life that was awful right? And just hellish. But the person that she will become will be incredible and you’re gonna be amazed and so proud of her. And so just supporting her as she makes her way is exactly what she needs.

Jim (36:43):
Thank you. I appreciate that. Here’s one thing I wrote down. My brother, younger brother was talking to him about in effect you know, taking my daughter back and he said, well, I never gave mine away, I just was willing to share her. And so I think that’s a, a healthy father perspective.

Anne (37:04):
Maybe, but also she’s not yours, is more the healthier thing.

Jim (37:10):
that and that, that, that for sure. Cause now that you mentioned that that was one of the things that my son-in-law said in the text, like the first or second day is my children my most precious possessions. Right.

Anne (37:23):
You know, so I’m like, you like that’s another sort of misogynistic way to think about it. Like, this is my daughter and I own her. Or like, and it’s great that you wanna protect her. She will be and can be completely responsible for herself. She does need support and she does need help, but that doesn’t make her somehow incapable.

Jim (37:45):
I mean the only reason that she needs financial or or other support at this point is cause of the three young children.

Anne (37:52):
Exactly.

Jim (37:53):
She’s perfectly capable to take care of herself in all ways.

Anne (37:58):
Exactly.

BTR.ORG Is Here For You Jim (37:59):
Better than me. Cause when I have the three children all about myself, you know, it doesn’t take too long before I’ve about had it, so, you know.

Anne (38:05):
Right. Well, and knowing that the reason why she needs help is because her children need help. Like, it’s not because she’s feeling entitled or because she’s incapable, you know, any of that. It’s because she’s a mom of young children who need her and they need their mom. Especially if they’ve got a 50/50 situation with an abuser.

Jim (38:30):
Yeah. When they, when they come back, they wanna be with her and they don’t want us to get in the way. And yes, they, they want her.

Anne (38:37):
Thank you so much, Jim, for reaching out and I wanna thank you dad for helping me so much. Even when you had a bad attitude about it, you actually did the thing when the rubber hit the road, you supported me and you helped me. So thank you Dad, and thanks for coming on today’s episode to share your thoughts. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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If your daughter has confided in you that she is experiencing abuse, or if you suspect that there may be abuse or betrayal in her relationship, then you can be a central figure in helping her seek safety.

Read on and tune in to the BTR.ORG Podcast to learn 3 Ways to Help Your Abused Daughter Seek Safety.

The Absolute Necessity of Unequivocal SupportAbandon the “it takes two to tango” mentality, and invest your time and energy into supporting your daughter. This means that you are NOT:

• Bailing the abuser out of jail if he’s been arrested
• Meeting the abuser one-on-one for heart-to-heart talks about how he can change or win your daughter back
• Trying to convince your daughter to consider salvaging the marriage
• Fraternizing with the abuser’s family and friends – your energy is best spent on your daughter (and her children)

Become Trauma-Informed & Educated About AbuseWhen your daughter has experienced psychological and emotional abuse, financial control, and sexual coercion and betrayal, she is likely experiencing significant trauma.

As you become more trauma-informed and educated about abuse, you will naturally be able to empathize with her and be more sensitive to her trauma. If you want her to feel safe with you, then take the time to:

• Listen to the BTR.ORG Podcast
• Read the books we recommend, including Why Does He Do That? And The Verbally Abusive Relationship
• Watch our educational videos

Choose to be a Pillar of Safety & SupportYour daughter may feel like her entire world is crumbling around her. The last thing that she needs right now is to feel like she has to earn your love, respect, and support.

Offer her:

• A place to live
• Financial resources so that she can afford a good attorney
• Your unequivocal support
• A listening ear should she ever need to vent or confide in someone
• Your absolute belief in her story, without any need for proof
• Your willingness to make a safety plan in the event that the abuser tries to harm her or the children
• Your willingness to testify on her behalf

Your support can be the difference between your daughter feeling completely alone in a terrifying world – and feeling loved, safe, and resilient.

Please be the parent that your daughter deserves.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. If you’re new to the BTR podcast, you may want to consider starting with the oldest episode first and then making your way forward chronologically. If you do that, you’ll take the journey with me as I learn more and more. You’ll hear a change in my voice as I grow in confidence and skills. It’ll be like a friend holding your hand as you make your own way to peace.

Anne (02:58):
I have a really special episode today. My father is here. We had a man named Jim reach out. He is the dad of a victim and she’s living with him and also her three children, and he reached out and was like, how do I help my daughter? What do I do? He was like, could I talk to your dad? So I thought, let’s do a podcast episode about it and talk about some of these issues. So welcome Jim.

Jim (03:23):
Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

Anne (03:27):
So Jim, do you wanna just start with what’s going on with your daughter?

When Jim Began to Understand That His Son-In-Law Was AbusiveJim (03:32):
Sure. She’s been married about 10 years has three children. The youngest one is a year and a half, basically. So about the time that she had the baby, she came to me with a little experience when the baby was about a week old. She was asking for some newborn photos or something and, and her husband basically just became unglued to the point that she was like shaking and like it was the turning point for her. And she came to me and told me about that and my wife. And I think it was a turning point for us in basically being able to tell her, you know, you do what you need to do. We’ve got your back.

Anne (04:13):
Did you understand that as abuse at the time or did you just think he was being a jerk? What did you think?

“They Did Some Marriage Counseling, Which Made Things Worse”Jim (04:20):
You know, I’m not sure when the words came cuz certain things happened that helped give us vocabulary, if you will. I think that the, the term that came to my daughter first was verbal abuse. And so she looked it up and started saying, wow, I’m getting a lot of that. At some point in there, you know, she, in hindsight, you know, she had been concerned about their marriage for at least a year before that. And in hindsight, you know, even much before that, but particularly enough that she wanted to do something and she started asking him about it. And toward the time of the baby they did some marriage counseling, which made things worse and he suggested that at some point that she was suffering postpartum depression. So this would’ve been after that experience I described. And she was recommended a counselor and went to this counselor and the counselor specialized in postpartum depression and in the first session she said, “You have no postpartum depression; I think you’re being abused.”

(05:20):
And that helped confirm. And I can’t remember the order of things, you know, obviously she told us her experience before that with the counselor. But a few things just started to lock together and give her an ability to describe what was happening. And, you know, in hindsight, was there all along, even from the beginning of their marriage when you’re trying to support your kids in their marriage, you’re not like looking for those sort of things. It’s kind of a, a goodwill attitude that, that you have towards it. And, and I must mention that, that he is very, very skilled at reading people and manipulating them basically is what it turns out. But that’s quite, quite personable and quite funny and all those things, you know, and that, that was the big thing for me was, you know, how can somebody be so friendly and personable to everybody else and treat his wife so badly?

Abusers Choose Victims of ALL Personality TypesAnne (06:24):
Can you tell us about Sarah’s personality? Like is she kind of quiet? Is she assertive?

Jim (06:32):
She is, you know, overall fairly quiet. We contrast with some of her other siblings, she was always the, the type that was interacted with friends but not with adults so much. Whereas a lot of our siblings enjoyed adult conversation with adults. And so she was different that way. Just a little less assertive I guess in her mind. Marrying somebody who was outgoing was supposedly going to be good for social things, but kind of turned out to be the opposite.

Anne (07:03):
The reason I ask that is because as my dad talks, my personality’s very assertive, like extremely. And so many people when I started talking about it were like, well, you couldn’t get abused because of your personality. You’re gonna confront everything. That was one of the things that was hard, I think, for my family to really like process. That’s helpful to know where she was coming from when she initially said that, was it easy to wrap your head around? Were you like, oh yes. Like did light bulbs come off or was there a time or a moment where you’re like, ah, I’m not sure if she’s processing this correctly, from your point of view?

Abusers Don’t Take Accountability – So Marriage Books Aren’t Going to Help Jim (07:43):
A little of both. I mean, I don’t think I was surprised cause I’d observed all along, but you know, my initial reaction was to try to fix things, you know, that’s how my personality is. And so it’s like, well, this great marriage book here or this great marriage book here. And one in particular Gottman’s book where he talks about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it.

Bob (08:05):
Yes, we are.

Anne (08:07):
Yeah.

Jim (08:08):
When we’ve discussed that with her, she’s like, hmm, yeah, he does all of those. You know, I’m, I’m defensive, but he does all of them. And so it’s like, it’s kind of hard to, to come to the terms at first that your daughter’s marriage is gonna fail, you know what I mean? It’s, it feels like a big letdown, you know, and so when you bounce it against the four horsemen kind of thing and you’re like, well, there’s gotta be some way out of this. And, but the more you you look at it, the more you see that, you know, it just really isn’t owning it very much. So not much chance of change.

Why Gottman’s Book Doesn’t Apply To Abusive SituationsBob (08:45):
I’m very familiar with Gottman’s book and, and one of the things that came to mind as you were talking Jim, was their observations they did in the lab and they could predict marriages are gonna succeed or fail based on the instances of those four horseman issues coming up in the daily lives and conversation of the couple. That was a big aha moment as I was reading through that material.

Anne (09:11):
The interesting thing about Gottman is that he doesn’t use the word abuse. He says criticism, stonewalling and stuff, but he doesn’t say this is psychological abuse, which it could or could not be. It depends like a victim for example, she might be trying to protect herself and so she decides that she’s gonna just stop talking, which could be quote unquote stonewalling, but she’s doing it to protect herself, whereas an abuser with an abusive character is gonna stonewall in order to control. And so because the goal is different, it’s not necessarily abuse. I think that’s interesting. And people have a hard time like knowing the nuances of victim and perpetrator relationships.

Pornography Use in Abusive RelationshipsJim (09:51):
Yeah, the, the, the words are important because abuse word gets people’s attention. In fact, when she left it wasn’t, her idea wasn’t that she was going to leave, she was asking him to leave for a while to, you know, do a separation and she basically used the word, you know, emotionally abusing, you know, well that word sets people off if they don’t like being accused of that and you know, within a day it changed his mind from thinking he might leave to, no, I ain’t going anywhere. And he never left the house.

Anne (10:23):
Mine vacillated between, I’m leaving, I hate it here, you’re terrible to me and I’m not going anywhere. And that was really interesting. Really quickly before we go farther, did you know, or were you aware of any pornography use?

Jim (10:37):
No. And that, that’s the puzzling thing because, you know, he’s adamantly denied that if he’s used it, he’s been able to keep it very secret.

Anne (10:50):
Mm-Hmm.

Jim (10:50):
There, you know, there are telltale signs of, you know, lots of time on the computer, et cetera, et cetera. But no, no admission and no, no real evidence.

Anne (11:02):
But highly likely in this case.

Jim (11:03):
Highly likely.

Anne (11:05):
Yeah.

Is Sarah Safe Right Now? Bob (11:05):
So, so how, how did he eventually leave the house? Or is he still in the house?

Jim (11:11):
He’s still in the house.

Anne (11:12):
Is the divorce final?

Jim (11:14):
No. Yeah, after a year we’ve finally got to some temporary orders that were basically negotiated outside the judge’s chambers, I think cause both attorneys were afraid to go in there. I dunno, that’s what it felt like.

Anne (11:27):
Unfortunately the court system with the amount of time that it takes to do things and everything, it does not protect victims per se and actually makes it a lot more difficult for victims. So I’m really sorry that that’s happening. So he’s still in the home and your daughter lives with you and what’s the custody arrangement?

Jim (11:45):
The temporary is 50/50 right now because the attorney was convinced that that’s what the commissioner was gonna give no matter what.

Anne (11:53):
Did your daughter work before this?

Jim (11:56):
Part-time.

Anne (11:57):
Okay. And what is the soon to be ex’s financial situation? Does he make really good money? Is he the average person?

Jim (12:07):
Just a little above average I would say.

Anne (12:09):
Alright. Okay. So thank you for sharing that.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (12:13):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which also has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

Anne (13:14):
Let’s talk about whatever you want. Now, do you have questions, Jim?

Jim (13:19):
I think I listened to at least one of yours where you told the story about, I think it was a protective order or something, that happened such that it created space where you figured this all out. And then I guess the question is, you know, how did you approach your family about it and how did that go over?

Anne’s Story From Bob’s Perspective Anne (14:03):
Well, I have the privilege I guess, of a very awesome family. My parents are amazing. They’re really involved but not annoyingly involved and also not overly involved. And so they were always here at just the right moments and really helpful. So do you wanna tell the story from your perspective of the day that he punched the wall in the therapy appointment?

Bob (14:29):
That’d be a good place to start.

Anne (14:31):
Maybe. So my ex and I were in a therapy appointment, like a couple therapy appointment. It was online and both of my parents were here to tend the kids and they were upstairs and we were downstairs. And during the therapy appointment he started pounding on the desk and like yelling in my face and spitting and he broke the door and he put two holes in the wall during this therapy appointment and the therapist was like, get outta there right now. So he was the first one, and this is like seven years of therapy later that mentioned the word abuse. And I went upstairs and I, I told my parents, cause they were there and I’m also talking to the therapist on the phone cause I get out of there, I go upstairs and I’m talking to the therapist on the phone. I tell my parents and then basically he left right that, well, he didn’t leave the house but he –

Bob (15:22):
He was still downstairs.

Anne (15:22):
Well he, oh, he was still downstairs. Okay. So yeah, why don’t you pick it up from there, Dad?

“It Was Clear To Me… That He Did Not Want to Remain Married”Bob (15:27):
Well we, we heard the noises, the doors being broken and the walls, you know, so we knew something was bad was going on. And then Anne came upstairs and, and I went right downstairs and cause I wanted to talk to him and find out what was going on and had a pretty good relationship with him. I could, I could talk with him and, and we talked for 45 minutes and basically, you know, do you want a divorce? What will happen if you get divorced? What will the financial arrangements be? And man, I was just asking him questions and he was responding and then making comments of his own in terms of where, where they thought they were at. But it was clear to me through that conversation that he did not want to remain married, but he couldn’t figure out an acceptable and financially feasible way to get out of the marriage. And there was nothing definitive that happened out of that conversation.

Anne (16:25):
Remember when you said something about the police and he was like, oh, I I I know how to deal with them or whatever.

“I’m Not Worried About That; I Can Talk My Way Out of That”Bob (16:31):
Yeah, well I, I said, “You, you know, the police could come over right now and arrest you for abuse from what’s what has transpired here today.” And he said, “Oh, I’m not worried about that; I can talk my way out of that.” And, and he said some other things about divorce and money, but, so that kind of laid it bear between the two of us of knowing where he was at and what was, what, what was going on in his head. And it was only a month after that that he, he, the incident happened that –

Anne (17:04):
He actually got arrested.

Bob (17:05):
He got arrested because of some physical abuse that happened in the house.

Anne (17:09):
So from your perspective, dad, at that moment where you’re like, my daughter is married to someone who does not care about her, like he wants to get divorced, but he can’t figure it out. Like, what were you thinking in your head?

“I Didn’t Understand the Nature of Abuse” Bob (17:23):
I’m going to admit where I think I went wrong and where my thinking was wrong at that point in time. And Jim, you mentioned something I think was critical to that in terms of you telling your daughter that she needed to do, do what she needed to do and you had her back. I think I was deficient in that area. I was still of the mode of, you know, what will correct this and takes two to tango and, you know, I didn’t understand the nature of abuse. I hadn’t read some of the really important materials that I needed to read to understand that. So I was still more equivocal of this or that and I was not as unconditionally supportive as I should have been at that moment, at that time. And that’s one of the big issues that I would like to communicate to all the listeners in terms of family support is to my observation is in abuse, the tendency to say there’s two sides of this goes out the window and the abuse victim needs unconditional support from those close to her in particular her parents and her siblings and other family members.

(18:48):
And again, from reading an observation, I think that’s one of the things that’s, that really is damaging and that’s lacking in, in these abuse cases.

“It Damaged My Relationship With My Daughter And It Was Damaging To Her” Jim (18:58):
You know, that moment when I told her I had her back was after you know, after I finally woke up because, you know, there were a lot of signs along the way. In fact, I’d been sent up there a few weeks before to talk to him and asked him to leave. You know, I was unsuccessful. But cause he’s a good talker and to be honest, we had a great talking relationship cause I guess I like to talk and he liked to talk and, and we had common interests. Although my daughter makes it clear now that, you know, sometimes she thinks some of the interests are faked interests, you know, just to kinda, I don’t know, groom the parents a little bit too. I don’t, I don’t know what you’d call it, but –

Bob (19:37):
That was going on in our case as well. And, and maybe I am being too hard on myself, but I don’t think so. I I I was too willing to hear and listen to him and, and it damaged my relationship with my daughter and it was damaging to her. And, and that’s what I had seen in retrospect.

Fathers: Don’t Empathize With Abuse. Anne (19:57):
Well, I think one of the things that like hurt me during that time was that like, I’m not perfect, right? Like to have obviously my abuser using my weaknesses against me and weaponizing those. And then also my strengths, he was exploiting and weaponizing those as well. And then sort of being able to word it in a way that my dad knowing me so well was kind of like, well, I can kind of see your point of view, right? Because Anne is really opinionated and she is very direct and she’s very, you know, whatever. And so because of that, instead of being like, that’s not the issue, the issue is your abuse and sort of having a little bit of empathy, would you say, toward him…That, that was hurtful to me because there’s a lot of women who are maybe quiet like Sarah is, or maybe assertive like I am, but they’re not getting abused, so that doesn’t really have anything to do with it.

Bob (20:59):
Yeah. But this is a broader issue than just a, a parent. I, I think a bishop or a pastor, a minister, a therapist – anyone that’s in that kind of a role interacting with an abused victim, is going to have these kind of tendencies that, that I had that, that I recognize afterwards as being hurtful and detrimental to my daughter.

Anne (21:28):
Also just flat out not true. So for example, he could say, well, if she would just do this and that and, and it, those weaknesses in her may be true, but it’s not true that if she were different, he would stop abusing her. That’s, that’s where it’s just not true.

Abusers Know How to Weaponize The Victims’ Strengths & Weaknesses Jim (21:44):
I think that that hits it exactly right because I, I will say one thing about Sarah as in our family, she’s the one that is probably the best at self-care, I’ll just say that. And that annoys siblings sometimes. And those are the kind of things that he would, in fact, I think he would, particularly around her family bring those kind of things up, you know,

Anne (22:12):
And weaponize them like yeah, I’m guessing she’s not selfish per se, she’s good at self-care –

Jim (22:19):
Yeah, if everybody took care of themselves as good as she did, the world would be a better place.

Anne (22:22):
But taking it farther by attacking her character with that strength and saying she’s selfish. She doesn’t, you know, things like that. Like taking it farther than it needs to go to attack her character, which I’m not saying that he did that, cause I’m not aware of that, but that’s the type of thing that an abuser would do.

Jim (22:42):
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Bob (22:44):
Those are some of the things that were going on in my mind during that time. I, I’d had a prior interaction with –

Anne (22:53):
John, we’re gonna call my ex John. Yeah.

The Necessity of Unequivocal Support Bob (22:56):
Pornography, abuse and some other issues that had gone on years before. I was really direct, but I was also empathetic and trying to be understanding. I wasn’t trying to be an ogre and beat him over the head, but I I did beat him over the head in a, in as nice way as I could. So we had that history as well coming into this. But I, I did not understand the nature of abuse and the, the continuum of, of abuse and I didn’t understand the damaging nature of my lack of unequivocal support for my daughter.

Anne (23:37):
One of the things that was interesting, Jim, is the night, so he was arrested at night for domestic violence and I, my parent, I called my parents, they were really helpful that night, but the next morning, was it that night or the next morning that you were like, well, should I go bail him out? And mom was like, no. Do you remember that? Because he was like, what do we do? You know, because did you kind feel like he was your responsibility sort of?

Support the BTR.ORG PodcastBob (24:01):
Well, yeah, and he’s family. I mean, yeah, again, the, the, the detachment of being fa- and, and you, you referenced this Jim as the accept defeat and to recognize the, you know, the situation you were in and I was still in the, this, this can be reconstructed and you know, what can I do to help? And I didn’t realize that it had, it had passed beyond that, that point. But I, I do think there’s that pivotal transitional point where, and, and Jim, you alluded to it as you, you don’t want to be a nit picker and actually damage their marriage when it’s salvageable. So when do you, when do you recognize you need to make this pivot and change the way you’re viewing it and the way you’re seeing it and the way you react to it? And I, I don’t have an answer to that. I mean, that, that’s, that’s a tough one. But I, I think the transition needs to be made and maybe it needs to be made more intentional and more conspicuous. I, I don’t know.

Anne (25:06):
We’re gonna pause the conversation here and continue the conversation with my dad and Jim next week, so stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Is your husband listening to the BTR.ORG podcast?

Is he claiming that he’s “changed”?

Has he confessed his affairs, pornography use, abuse, and sexual coercion to clergy and now claims a “change of heart” or other spiritual epiphany?

Often, abusive men use our content as well as other educational abuse material (like Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft) to learn how to groom their wives. Tune in to the BTR.ORG Podcast to hear what one abuser shared with Anne in a recent email and read more below to learn three common phrases that abusers say when trying to manipulate their wives.

“It Breaks My Heart That Men Abuse Women (Like I USED To Do)”Abusers will acknowledge that they used to be abusive, but will subtly remove themselves from the identity of “abuser” to “non abuser” by:

• Showing immense (false) compassion for abuse victims;
• Showing immense (false) compassion for abusers, offering spiritual, religious, or emotional support to them and offering to be mentors, or other sources of support on their “journey to change”;
• Bearing testimony or other public forms of admission of their prior life as an abuser (even if it was last week);
• Enrolling in or starting a program to help abusers change (becoming a life coach, counsellor, or religious leader);
• Insisting that others do not label them as “abusers”, but rather someone “who used to be abusive”

“I Want to Be a Leader & Teacher to Other Men Since I’m So Enlightened And Changed” Abusers will often claim to have received some kind of spiritual call to teach or guide other men into the enlightenment that they have now achieved.

Many will become (or try to become):

• Active or more active in their church communities
• Leaders in their churches
• Life coaches, abuse coaches, or fitness coaches
• Yoga gurus, new age coaches
• Cult leaders
• Social media influences
• Self-published authors
• Therapists, counselors
• 12-step sponsors

If they are unable to find success, they often claim that it’s because they are victims, thwarted by those who have ruined their reputations. Perhaps they were excommunicated from their faith community or lost credibility in their community due to an arrest.

“Don’t Be Afraid of My Reaction if You Choose Divorce”Be warned: if the abuser says this to you, there is a high, HIGH probability that you are being groomed.

Abusers use this line to find out if the victim is seeking a divorce. They know that domestic violence victim advocates warn victims to keep their divorce plans top secret until the last second – in an effort to keep the victims as safe as possible.

Abusers feel entitled to your privacy and your marriage – this is their subtle tactic to take your autonomy and your safety.

If he says these words, hear what he’s ACTUALLY saying:

I AM NOT SAFE – I AM TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouWe know the shock and pain of realizing that the abuser is not actually changing, but is just trying to manipulate you into believing he’s changing – and we don’t want you to go through that alone.

Attend our BTR.ORG Group Sessions and find the community that you need as you make your way to safety.

We love you. We believe you.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. If you’re new to the BTR podcast, you may wanna consider starting with the oldest episode first and then making your way forward chronologically. If you do that, you’ll take the journey with me as I learn more and more. You’ll hear a change in my voice as I grow in confidence and skills. It’ll be like a friend holding your hand as you make your own way to peace. So it’s just gonna be me today on the podcast. I had an abuser reach out and say that he really liked the podcast and he has some questions and he wanted to come on the podcast to talk to me about it and I was like, Hmm, I’m not gonna have you on the podcast, but let me see if I can address these questions and also the entitlements behind them. His first question is, “If every man says that I used to look at porn but I no longer do is lying, what I am hearing is that Anne does not want any men in recovery to discuss it, which leads me to the challenge of withholding the truth, which is what I was doing and no longer want to do anymore.” Uh, I don’t understand what he’s saying here.

(03:54):
I don’t remember saying that. If I did, it was it taken out of context And then he goes on to say, or why should any man even try to stop? Because there is no hope. And once an abuser, always forever will be an abuser, a lying porn user. In other words, as a listener, an abuser trying to work recovery, I am receiving a mixed signal. Okay, so do I think a man should discuss it, yes or no? Um, what I’m concerned about is grooming with a goal. So I’m hoping abusers do not listen to this podcast. First of all, it’s not for them. It’s to keep women safe and I don’t really wanna give abusers a checklist of things to do to appear to be safe when they are not. The thing that concerns me is any talk, whether it’s about what they quote unquote used to do or what they’re working on not doing.

Why Is Your Husband Disclosing Information To You? What’s the Intent? (04:49):
Now as grooming, I am not opposed to honesty, but what is the intent of the honesty? Is it a fake sort of vulnerable honesty to give the victim the impression that he’s honest because he told me these certain things, not realizing that there’s a whole lot of other things that he’s keeping secret. The whole thing is very problematic. I do think that abusers can change, but the question for victims of abuse is, are they safe currently? Is this grooming or is this current safe behavior? If it’s not safe behavior, then we need to distance ourselves, set boundaries, take a step back and observe from a safe distance. We have an amazing boundaries workshop. It is the surprise surprise BTR.ORG Boundaries Workshop that will help you know what boundaries are actually effective for keeping you safe. So many women are setting what I call “Floundaries” and you can learn about that in the workshop and they’re not working, they’re safe, they’re still being emotionally and psychologically abused.

(06:00):
So check that out; words just don’t really matter so much. We need to watch actions. So the best thing for victims to do I think, is to not try to ask the abuser, are you in recovery? What are you doing? But just make boundaries for her safety and from a safe distance observe, what types of actions does he take to ensure her safety? For example, if she says, “Hey, I feel unsafe. I would feel safer if you would move out of the house.” So he moves out of the house. Does he shut down our bank account? That would be a sign that he’s unsafe. Or is he making sure that she has enough money for food, housing, all the things that she needs? Watch the actions. Okay, here’s his second question. He says that on one of the episodes that a guest says something to the effect that men in recovery like to go around and talk about themselves and when they do talk about their recovery or where they are in recovery, they have really not changed and they should not talk about it.

“Don’t Put Too Much Stake In ANY Of His Words, Regardless Of What They Are” (07:05):
I am not saying these men should not talk about it. I am saying that it doesn’t matter if you do, that’s all. You can talk about it all you want, but women don’t listen to their words, watch their actions. Whether or not he wants to talk about recovery is up to him. I, I’m not saying whether he should talk about it or not because words have frequently been used for grooming. I’m telling victims don’t put too much stake in any of his words regardless of what they say. Let’s say he says, I hate you. I’ve always hated you. You’re unattractive. You’re the worst. That’s also something to just dismiss because he’s saying that on purpose to harm you. There’s always a goal. He says, can’t I be excited about all I have learned and share it to try and pass the word and teach others before they end up like me or worse? Go ahead. What is the goal? Is it to manage your image? Is it because you’re genuinely excited? Are you genuinely changed? Take some time, observe your own behaviors.

(08:15):
And again, this podcast isn’t for abusers, it’s for abuse victims, but that sounds kind of dangerous to me. What are they doing that for? Were they caught and they’re trying to tell everyone how amazing they are? He says, I also think of it as accepting Jesus and wanting to tell the world what I did. Most victims have heard: don’t you believe in Jesus? Don’t you believe in the atonement? Uh, it’s just spiritual abuse. If an abuser believes in Jesus and accepts him, great, his behavior should change. The interesting thing about these questions he’s asking is he’s not even mentioned doing, which is what concerns us as victims, right? That’s what we wanna see. He says, I’m so excited about learning what it was that he was an abuser and I want everyone to know what I’ve learned. And then he says something interesting.

“Less Talking And More Doing From Abusers – That’s What Victims Need to See” (09:07):
I honestly do not care if it’s brainwashing. As if what? Women are brainwashing him to think he’s an abuser? So is there this element that like maybe it’s not true, but I’m going to do it. Cause then he goes on to say, if it works and changes me to no longer abuse or rape my wife and to be completely open and honest, living authentically in all areas of my life and being an example to my… and it goes on and on about how to correctly love and treat my wife and to me it’s just all talk. That’s what concerns me about these questions – less talking and more doing from abusers is what victims need to see.

(09:51):
Then he goes on to um, talk about other people that look at porn and what he is learning from BTR, but why is he telling me this ? I’m like, what? Why are you telling me this? Sorry, this is gonna sound very harsh, but like I don’t care if you told another man about BTR. BTR is for victims of abuse. So like that’s just weird. This also concerns me because he says, “After one of the podcasts that discussed planning for divorce secretly, because they do not know how the man will react,” (yes, that’s what all domestic abuse advocates and experts recommend, right? You need to plan ahead), and then he says, “so I asked if my wife or ex-wife,” (he doesn’t say like if they’re in a divorce proceedings or what), “will let me call her.” If she doesn’t want you to call her, then don’t ask her if you can call her – that’s not respectful.

When Abusers Weaponize the BTR.ORG Podcast(10:48):
If she says, please don’t call me, and then you say, well, can I call you? And you think, oh, I’m being respectful because she said not to call her and I’m so I’m just gonna ask her, like, no, this is a very gaslighty quote and this is one that I hear abusers say a lot that are not changed and he says this and I’m just gonna read it. He says, “At this point, I made the hardest decision against my wants and desires and let her know that her feeling safe should she decide to divorce me is very important to me and I did not want her to be worried about how I would react.” Basically he wants to say, look, I wanna find out if she wants to divorce me. I’m afraid she’s gonna surprise me and so I’m gonna try to intervene here and manipulate her into telling me when she probably shouldn’t be telling me. I’m really worried that this guy’s listening to my podcast in order to weaponize it against his wife or soon-to-be ex-wife.

(11:43):
That’s my main concern – that this guy’s weaponizing it and if he’s still listening, please stop. Don’t listen to my podcast anymore. If you really have changed, then stop listening to the podcast in order to weaponize it and bear up your reputation. It’s scary. Then in his own abuse, he says, it breaks my heart that men continue to abuse as I had done, but in very nasty ways and goes on to say, you know, a bunch of stuff that I’m kind of thinking he does. The reason why I did not want him to come on the podcast is cause I’m worried that he would use the podcast and try to act like he’s so changed through his words to manipulate his wife into staying with him when she does not want to because I’m not able to observe his actions or talk to his wife or ex-wife.

Has Your Ex-Husband Done This, Too? 🤪(12:34):
These types of messages that I get are very problematic. So I just wanted to share with you that those are some of the things that I receive from abusers and I don’t wanna give them airtime to further manipulate. Here’s another one from a wife whose husband was like totally into BTR saying he was and he was like, Hey, I’m completely into BTR. It’s amazing. I’ve listened to it, it’s changed me. And then his wife said, be forewarned my husband or ex, has gone completely off the rails. He’s now actively calling men that he recommended BTR too and telling them how incredibly horrible and damaging it is. It’s interesting because he was trying to groom his wife and be like, I listen to BTR, it’s amazing, you know, and he had a goal in mind and when that goal did not work, I don’t know exactly what the goal was, but like maybe to move back in or maybe for his wife to talk to him again when it didn’t work, instead of staying the course and saying, okay, yeah, BTR is fine.

(13:36):
I’m sad she didn’t wanna let me back in, but that’s her prerogative. He decided then to be like, never mind, BTR is bad, and call everyone and say, you know, that thing that I told everyone was amazing. It’s actually really bad. Who knows if he actually did that? That’s another question I had. He says he called everyone and told them how great BTR was, but my guess is he called like one person or two people and now he’s calling them back and telling them it’s bad. Apparently BTR teaches men that they just have to lie down and take any and all abuse from their crazy wives simply because they made a little mistake by cheating. This is a very classic abuser move that when faced with their abuse for a minute, they might groom in order to see if they can get back in the house or have the goal that they want and then they don’t want to give up their entitlements.

Abusers Really Hate BTR (Shocker, We Know) (14:28):
They don’t wanna give up their exploitative privilege at this point, and so once they’re faced with what they would have to give up in order to stop abusing, like, wait a minute, I can’t even call her to ask if she wants to talk to me, even though she’s already told me she doesn’t wanna talk to me. Wait a minute, I can’t move back in the house. Wait a minute, I’m not gonna be able to talk to her every day in order to manipulate her and convince her of my point of view. The wife was concerned, so she reached out and she said, I have no idea if he’d actually be bold enough to make a public statement against BTR, but just so you know, he’s actively trying to turn men against you and now he’s saying that everything is the wife’s fault because these men just have to lie down and we complain that they’re not flat enough.

(15:14):
Abusers want control, so they want power-over when things are equal, when the truth is laid bare, when you observe their actions for what they are and you are on equal ground, that feels like oppression to them, that feels like someone is having power over them because in order to feel equal from their perspective, and this is explained very well in the book The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. In order to feel equal for an abuser, he has to feel over. If he actually is equal, like the truth is out, you see him for what he is. You’re both living in reality. He feels abused, he feels oppressed. That does not feel like equality to him, and so that’s when you hear abusers say things like, I’ve given up everything and it’s not good enough and now I’m the one being abused. That’s just not the case.

This is Why Abusers Ask Questions(16:10):
They’re just not able to live in that space where they don’t have power over. It feels very uncomfortable to them and it feels like they’re being oppressed. The wife, the one that was warning me about him, she said when he said this, I laughed out loud. His brain is so twisted right now, it’s insane. He thinks he’s lying so flat, but in reality he’s not. He still hasn’t given his entitlements up. He still not telling the truth. He’s still gaslighting, he’s still lying. The reason I’m bringing this up for all the women victim listeners, abusers ask questions for a purpose and usually it’s to groom or to get information to weaponize. We cover this in the strategic thought and communication tactics workshop. I would highly recommend that everyone listening take that workshop. It’s really good. We have a section about abuser questions and what they are for.

(17:06):
You can observe from their behavior everything you need to know. That is the point of this episode. Even if they seem like they’re doing great and they might be, we don’t know. That’s the problem with abuse is that because grooming is part of that cycle and they’ve used it before, we are incapable of being able to decipher grooming from true change at the beginning of recovering from abuse. It takes time. It takes time for a victim to get out of the abuser’s realm of manipulation and step into reality and become strong and become grounded to be able to tell. There’s no short term way to know if what he is saying is grooming or if it’s true change because any abuser, they can groom with their words, but they can also really act like it for a certain amount of time, and then , when they feel like they’re in control, when they feel like they have their goal, then you’ll see the behavior shift back to the obvious abuse, all the kindness, the questions, the nice understanding behavior is abuse.

“Get More Education About Grooming” (18:19):
If it has a goal, if the goal is power-over, moral of the story here with this episode, get more education about grooming. Take the Strategy Workshop also read the book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. I may have mentioned this before, but we launched a new podcast page on our website where you can read and listen to the podcasts in chronological order. You can start from the the first one and go through all of them. You can hear the change in my voice. You can hear the change in my confidence level. I am so, so grateful for the whole community, for helping me as I podcasted, you can hear me changing in real time to the person that I am today and I can’t wait to find out who I am tomorrow.

(19:18):
With your help, as one of us has an epiphany, we all have epiphanies. I’m so grateful that we’re sharing and teaching each other and that we have each other’s backs because my only goal is your safety. That’s it. I care about women in general and victims in general, and I might not know you specifically, but I know what you’re going through. My heart goes out to you and I want you to know that BTR, me personally, the coaches at BTR, our whole content team, we care about you as an individual. We care that you’re safe. We care that you feel safe in your home. We care that you’re not being emotionally and psychologically abused and we don’t want you to experience sexual coercion in the form of your husband’s secret pornography use or his secret sexual basement. So know that you are loved and I’m praying for every woman in this situation every day that she can make her way to emotional and psychological safety. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.

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Are you a victim of emotional abuse, betrayal trauma, psychological abuse, and/or sexual coercion?

We know how difficult it can be to find the support you need.

Our BTR.ORG daily, live Group Sessions are a safe place for you to process your trauma, ask questions, and work toward safety.

BTR.ORG Group Sessions: Community & Connection 🥰Healing begins when we find our tribe and connect with other women who get it. BTR.ORG Group Sessions offer an incredible community of compassionate women:

Every single day that I hop on group, I see women that I am inspired by and women who are ahead of me in the journey and women who are following me on the journey. And we’re all on different journeys, but somehow the connection that we have and the love that we share is very real.

BTR.ORG Group Session Client

You Deserve Expert CareBTR.ORG Group Sessions are led by trauma-informed, abuse coaches:

I have been in therapy for 12 years and only now have I felt that I have the expert care and clarity that I have been searching for for 12 years.

BTR.ORG Group Session Client

Become Empowered in BTR.ORG Group SessionsOne of the reasons BTR.ORG Group Sessions help so many women is because of the empowerment that comes through abuse education.

When women understand the abuse cycle, how to detect gaslighting, and how to set boundaries, they become armed with the tools they need to get themselves and their loved ones to safety.

BTR has helped me and continues to help me to be reminded that I’m not crazy, that there is a cycle of abuse; I can watch for the signs and I can check in with myself and check in with my body.

BTR.ORG Group Session Client

Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session TodayYou can access our Group Sessions here. We would love to see you in a session today.

We love you; we believe you.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

(03:41):
I honor all the women who listen to this podcast who are searching for answers, who are genuinely trying to save their families in the face of abuse and not knowing what to do and getting harmful information from therapists or internet articles or clergy resources that haven’t helped them understand the abuse. I wanna thank everyone for listening. I hope that BTR is helpful. The thought of any woman being in an abusive situation and not understanding what it is, is heartbreaking to me. Also, a thank you to all of you who have shared our material on social media or shared it with friends in an effort to educate more women about abuse. So with that, here are their shares.

“I Have Felt the Expert Care & Clarity That I Have Been Searching For For 12 Years” Group Session Client (04:33):
I just wanted to say that I have been in therapy for 12 years and only now have I felt that I have the expert care and clarity that I have been searching for for 12 years. You were what I call proactive, where before it was just wishy washy, hit or miss. If you wanna get psychobabble about it, Rogerian type of therapy, like how are you? What’s it? You know, this is exactly what women like this group needs and I cannot thank you enough.

Group Session Client (05:23):
Hi, this group is new to me. I have been going through, uh, not a good place for about three years and this is the first time that I have had other people share their stories where I felt so validated. I could totally relate. This isn’t just me. I’m not going crazy. I can stand my ground and create boundaries to keep myself safe, to keep my kids safe and have multiple daily options to check in, check out, share, not share. Listen, the isolation that I felt before is starting to dissipate.

“I Will Be Forever Grateful” Group Session Client (06:07):
I arrived at BTR in full-blown trauma, uh, never having known what he was doing for years and prior to we were married. And thank God that this is the place that I found because there was love and nurturing and education and somebody, all coaches, friends, to walk with me and support me and I will forever be grateful.

Group Session Client (06:37):
I had been in therapy for a while, years and at least a year with Chuck before I found BTR and there were no breakthroughs or anything. It was just the same cycle of, now that I know what it is, it was the same cycle of abuse happening over and over and over again with no real solution. When I found BTR I honestly was trying to find reasons in my head as to why the group wouldn’t be good for me because I, I knew it was gonna change everything about my life and it did because I joined the group right before I initially separated from Chuck. So having BTR during that time of separation got me through and then helped me make the decision to separate permanently and just not wanna be with him anymore. And you know, I wouldn’t be here and be growing the way that I am without BTR.

“I Can Say That BTR Has Saved My Life” Group Session Client (07:56):
BTR has been very important for me through this journey. I can just very consistently say that it has saved my life. I would say just simply that without BTR I wouldn’t be here probably.

Group Session Client (08:13):
For years I would always search like we’d have fights and I would go to the internet to find out how I could be better so that we could stop having fights. And article after article was never right. I just knew. And finally one day I stumbled upon the BTR podcast and I don’t really like listening to them. I like to read them. So I’m thankful for the transcript and I finally knew that what I was reading was right and when I had a name for what was going on in my marriage, I could finally start to work to fix it. And fixing it has meant not what I thought it would and it has saved my life too. So without BTR I wouldn’t have a name for what I experienced and I wouldn’t have a place to to live after the healing.

“The Connection That We Have & The Love That We Share Is Real” Group Session Client (09:09):
I didn’t ever think that I would be in the position that I’m in. I was with my ex-fiance from the age of 13 for 20 years and I had no idea that he was living a double life. I found BTR when I was staying in hotels. I had nowhere else to go and I booked a one-on-one with a coach and I haven’t looked back. I have learned so much and tomorrow is my one year anniversary of having left my ex-partner. And every single day that I hop on group, I see women that I am inspired by and women who are ahead of me in the journey and women who are following me on the journey. And we’re all on different journeys, but somehow the connection that we have and the love that we share is really real. So thank you so much. I dunno what I would’ve done without BTR for the last 12 months.

Group Session Client (11:14):
I found BTR to be really helpful. The groups are really helpful at connecting with other people going through this and not feeling alone and recognizing that there are lots of actually super capable, strong, determined people experiencing abuse at different stages along the way. And I found the group sessions to be really helpful and the podcasts really nice just to like listen to and understand broader patterns and trends. And I wish people didn’t have to find this on their own and I’m really glad BTR exists.

“I Am Now Free And I’m Now Safe” Group Session Client (11:48):
Discovery was in 2011 of sex addiction. There’s just no support out there for women other than the groups that are available in that realm. And my therapist of many years never mentioned the word abuse. I felt like I was duped. As I got into BTR I learned so much education from the coaches. I was terrified with a learning disability, thinking I could never do this. I could never ever, ever be free from a covert narcissist. And I have moved twice across state and also an alienation from my daughter as I’m going through all this. The post separation abuse was just heinous. And since then, um, with the help of BTR through this process and as I am safe in my new place, I’m now starting to process it even more. Cause I had been so busy going through all the, the process of divorce and everything else. And due to all the coaches and, and the love and support they have allowed me to have such great strength and realizing I am worth it. I am enough. BTR is a lifesaver and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. You helped save my life and I am now free and I’m now safe.

Group Session Client (13:30):
I feel like being in BTR Groups has been an opportunity for me to create some routine in my life, like something I can do every single day. It has just created some routine and structure and support in the life that I currently have, which is very chaotic and unpredictable and challenging. And I genuinely feel like I like meeting with all the coaches cause they have different perspectives. I know when I want some tough love, I go see Sharon. Each coach like has a different vibe. That’s really helpful. That’s been great. I’ve only been doing this a couple months, but I’m really happy and I don’t think I’m gonna stop anytime soon. It seems like a really beautiful community of women who’ve been doing it for a long time. It’s really cool to see those connections and to be building them.

“BTR Has Changed My Life” Group Session Client (14:15):
I’ve been through this for over 30 years. I’ve dealing with this in my life and I’ve been in B T R for five months. My life has changed more in the last five months than all of those years that I went through. And I so appreciate Coach Denalee. Just the clarity that she has helped me through a lot of individual sessions, the group sessions and all of the coaches, I really appreciate. Everyone has something different and all the shares help you understand other ways to do self-care and stay safe. And I really appreciate BTR, I can’t say enough about it. It’s changed my life.

Group Session Client (14:55):
BTR was literally an answer to prayer for me. After disclosure, I really didn’t know what to think about my situation. After almost 30 years being with my husband, I felt like I was brainwashed. I didn’t know what to do and I prayed and I did a Google search and I found the podcast and it literally changed my life. After a year, I feel so much more empowered and connected and validated. I have so much clarity on the trauma that I had been going through and everything just started to make sense. I’m a completely different person than I was a year ago. I just love this group.

Safety, Encouragement, and SupportGroup Session Client (15:44):
BTR groups and individual sessions have all been an amazing space for me to be able to find safety, encouragement, and support. BTR has helped me and continues to help me as I’m still in this process to be reminded that I’m not crazy and that there is a cycle of abuse and I can watch for the signs and I can check in with myself and check in with my body. I’m grateful to have this community. It’s been really important to help me, um, be able to recover and I look forward to recovering more.

Group Session Client (16:24):
Well, I found BTR through the Instagram posts and listening to Jane and she would post reels and other things and just realizing that’s me. Those things are about me. They helped me when I decided to join group. It was like finally having the place where everything in my life that didn’t make sense made sense because there could be words put to it and I wasn’t alone. And to be able to literally like put the voices from group in my, in my ears and be able to hear that as things are happening in my life has just been life changing. It’s been a great support.

Anne (17:15):
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Patriarchy is so deeply embedded in modern culture that we may not realize the many ways that it’s harming women and girls.

Emily Elizabeth Anderson is back on the BTR.ORG podcast, offering her unique perspective as a practicing Christian who has left fundamentalism. Together, she and Anne share their insights on the deeply harmful nature of patriarchy. Read the full transcript below and listen to the free BTR.ORG podcast for more.

Patriarchy Finds Ways to Treat Women & Girls Like PropertyPre-1800’s, women were literally property under the law.

While women fought for change, misogynists fought for ways to continue to treat women and girls like property:

“Fathers said to their daughters’ new husbands, she was my property, but now she’s gonna be your property. Except for, that just was not the right thing to say anymore after the late 1800’s. And so then they were like, ‘Oh, what are we gonna say now? Oh, I know. We’ll say our God-given authority over them is being transferred.'”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Patriarchy Isolates and Controls Women & GirlsAt varying levels, when women and girls are subjected to a patriarchal system, they experience isolation and control:

• They may not be allowed to attend public school
• They may not be allowed to attend college
• They may have to dress according to certain standards (decided by men)
• They may not be allowed to work outside of the home
• They may not be allowed to spend money without their husband’s permission
• They may be coerced to work outside the home, but not have any control over their own income
• They may not be allowed to associate with anyone outside of their high-control religious community and/or family
• They may not be allowed to participate in religious rituals without their husband present
• They may not be allowed to read scripture or pray
• They may be coerced to homeschool their own children
• They may be conditioned to raise their children in a similarly oppressive system
• They may be coerced to marry early or against their own desires
• They may be coerced into sexual activity
• They may not be allowed to question their husband’s behavior – even abusive behavior

Patriarchy Enables AbuseIn a system where women and girls are conditioned and coerced into silence and submission, men have free reign to control and abuse. Patriarchal systems enable abuse because men and male leadership enable and support each other in their abusiveness.

When patriarchal systems meet religion, women and girls are especially susceptible to spiritual and religious abuse, because men will say that they are acting in the name of God, and women and girls face the threat of eternal punishment if they don’t obey their abuser.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouIf you have been conditioned to believe seeking safety from abuse is sinful and that you must submit to your abusive husband in order to please God, please know that we are here for you. At BTR.ORG, we understand how hopeless it can feel to go against what you’ve been taught and brought up to believe, in pursuit of your own safety and the safety of your children.

You don’t have to do this alone – attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today and find a community that understands and validates you.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have Emily Elizabeth Anderson back on today’s episode. If you did not hear our episode from last week, go there first. Listen to that one and then join us here. We’ll just jump right in. When we’re talking about the patriarchal mindset that’s common in so many different patriarchal organizations, what theological ideations, if any, contribute to that mindset?

Emily (03:24):
I think patriarchalists often like to start at the very beginning with first book of the Bible, and they love to explain the Eve was deceived in the garden and that if Adam had been there, then perhaps she wouldn’t have been deceived. Which is quite funny because if you read scripture, it says, after she took of the fruit and ate, she gave it to Adam who was with her. So it seems pretty clear in scripture that he was actually with her. But they love to say that because Eve was deceived, um, women are more naturally deceived and so they need protection from men. And just in the last week I have listened to two different teachers use the exact phrase that men are rescuers of women and that that is actually a God-ordained position that men are supposed to rescue women from being deceived from any kind of harm that could come to them in the world.

Does the Bible Support the Patriarchy?(04:37):
So men are supposed to be protectors, they’re supposed to be providers, they’re supposed to lead their family spiritually. So often that means that the husband or the man is supposed to be reading the scripture to the family and interpreting the scripture to the family because since women are deceived, they can easily be confused by scripture and not be able to interpret it properly. So they have to have a man interpret it for them. So a lot of times there’s a big focus on Genesis as the reason why patriarchy is God-ordained. Also, of course, Ephesians 5 21, the verse on submission is brought up quite frequently, but the verse actually says, submit to one another out of reverence to Christ. So even in Ephesians we see it clearly stating that a husband and wife are to be on mutual ground. They’re supposed to submit to one another. And I think in this instance, submit would be well translated as to serve one another or to give priority to each other’s preferences. So it’s talking about just kindness and Christ-like behavior toward one another. I I, I do not see that as a command to authority whatsoever.

Anne (05:58):
From what you just said, the main thing that is deceiving women is men.

Emily (06:05):
True. Right.

Anne (06:06):
So if you really are concerned that women are being deceived, then you should be like, who is deceiving them? And it’s not their fault they’re being deceived. It’s the abusers who are lying and manipulating them. Women are deceived by what?

Emily (06:23):
Right.

Anne (06:24):
By wicked men. That’s who they’re deceived by. And it’s not their fault. That’s funny. I’m like, maybe you should be trustworthy and then you wouldn’t have to worry about it. What does life look like for a woman in the most severe patriarchal Christian organizations?

The Patriarchy Views Women and Girls as PropertyEmily (06:43):
Hmm. I have seen it start with daughters at home where they are told that they must have an authority figure over them, and their God-given authority is their father. And that that authority remains until they’re married. So in these patriarchal organizations, I’ve been to a lot of weddings, and there’s almost always a transfer of authority section in the, in the marriage ceremony. So the father walks the girl down the aisle and he’s holding her hand and then he gives this like blessing over her. And then this speech about how he’s been entrusted with her and he’s been her authority all these years. And like I’ve seen this with 41 year old women. This is not just young girls, but even 41 year old women that have continued to stay at home to be under their father’s authority. And then he moves her hand into her groom’s hand and does this, like I’m transferring the authority over to the groom. Anyway, so I’ve seen that a lot.

Anne (07:56):
That makes sense with what the turning of the tide thing said about how it was just property before. So essentially you’re yes, you’re like, okay, she was my property, but now she’s gonna be your property. Except for, that just was not the right thing to say anymore after the 18, late 18 hundreds. And so then they were like, oh, what are we gonna say now? Oh, I know. We’ll say our God-given authority over them as being transferred. That sounds very similar to that.

The Patriarchy Seeks to Control Women’s ChoicesEmily (08:20):
Yes. Yes. So women raised in patriarchal organizations are often discouraged from working outside the home or for making any kind of income, cause that would be the man’s responsibility. And so they’re usually stay-at-home moms, they’re usually homeschooling their children. And I mean, there’s nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom by any means. Nothing wrong with homeschooling, but it’s the idea that that is more biblical than a woman who chooses to be a provider for her family, a financial provider. That’s, that’s what bothers me. Every family I think gets to decide the dynamics and who has which responsibilities and how those responsibilities are divided, divided up. But it’s not more biblical for a woman to be a stay-at-home mom and for the husband to be the primary bread winner women because they’re told that they’re so easily deceived. They are encouraged to consult their husbands on all decisions no matter how small, any kind of financial decision or decision for the family or even when it comes to like buying kids clothes.

(09:37):
I mean, little stuff like that. I’ve seen women having to get their husband’s permission before they do anything. I’ve seen women not allowed to take communion unless it’s given to them by their husband. I’ve seen some churches where if a woman comes in and she’s single, or heaven forbid she’s divorced, and has children with her, she’s not allowed to go up and receive communion on her own. An elder has to bring it to her. These women are often encouraged to not leave abusive relationships, of course, often not told what abuse looks like, but if they go to their pastor and they’re explaining an abusive situation, they’re frequently told, you just need to submit more. You need to pray quietly. Have a meek, quiet, submissive spirit. Pray for your husband. God will get ahold of him so just lavish him, lavish him with love and affection and sex.

The Patriarchy Conditions Women to be Abused(10:40):
And that will just make him adore you and will encourage him to treat you in a Christ-like manner. I’ve heard that more times than I can count. Women were also not allowed to confront their husband and they’re not allowed to have an adult to an adult relationship because instead there’s this more parent-child dynamic. Because since the husband has this authority position over his wife, he has power and control over her. And they, they don’t have this just equal, let’s talk to each other as adults talk to each other. I can call you out. You can call me out. We can hold each other, um, responsible for things. You know, like you don’t see that in these patriarchal worlds.

Anne (11:33):
Yeah. That’s very fertile ground for abuse in those cases because women think they’re following God by submitting to a lot of times just flat out wickedness. And that is really hard, especially in situations where a man is using porn and maybe, maybe she’s not aware of it or he’s soliciting prostitutes or he has some wicked behavior that she’s not aware of and she’s submitting to his desires or other things she might not even know. She’s submitting to wickedness. And I think that’s really important to let women know that you’re not required to submit to wickedness. In fact, God wants you to turn away from that. For women who are finding themselves in this fog of abuse and they’re not quite able to see what’s really going on, why do you think fundamentalism appeals to them? Like why are women not just wholesale, like what I’m out, you know, why are they feeling so passionate and so convicted that this is God’s plan for them?

Why Is Fundamentalism Appealing?Emily (12:36):
I’ve seen a few different dynamics at play. Um, first I call fundamentalism the gumball gospel. So you put a quarter in and you get a gumball out. And so it’s very predictable and there is a false sense of security in that promised predictability. Um, so you are told if you follow the rules, then this is gonna happen. If you follow all the courtship impurity rules, then you are going to have a fantastic marriage that doesn’t have any conflict and you’re gonna have an amazing sex life. Your husband will never cheat on you. They’re told that if you are following all these rules, then you’re going to be financially blessed. Your children will grow up as devout followers of Christ and they will not fall away as, as some would say. So there’s, there’s just a lot of promise of happiness and just everything turning out right, you know, happy, fulfilling marriages and not having any, any struggles.

(13:43):
And that goes completely against scripture where Jesus was very clear. We live in a broken world. You’re going to experience pain, you’re going to experience hardship and brokenness is going to be all around you and you’re going to experience these things. And you know, we’re supposed to keep our eyes focused on him and realize that this world is our temporary home and we’re supposed to keep our eyes on our future home and realize that, you know, that is where we’re going to experience the perfection of God. It’s not going to be on this earth. And just because you’re experiencing pain here on this earth, it does not mean that you’re not following God or that God is upset with you. It’s, it’s, it’s really toxic lie that I’ve seen told again and again.

When Victims Feel Betrayed by Religious NarrativesAnne (14:39):
And I think when it doesn’t work out like that, that’s why women feel so betrayed by religion, right? They feel so betrayed cause they’re like, I did everything I was supposed to do. And in, in fact I married a quote unquote godly man. He checked all the boxes and you told me if I did that, that I would have a peaceful, happy marriage, but instead I’m just being abused. So explain to me how this works. It wouldn’t it have been more useful for you to educate me about abuse? But since they don’t understand abuse, they can’t really educate people about it. That’s part of the problem.

Emily (15:15):
Yeah. It’s very, very sad. I’ve also seen a couple of other dynamics as far as why it looks so appealing in that, first of all, abusers love it because it is a golden ticket for them to be able to abuse all they want and have power and authority and control over their victims all they want and be able to do it in the name of God, which personally is what I think blasphemy looks like. Not just saying God’s name when you stub your toe. Anyway, side note. But also I’ve seen women confess that they consider it a lack of responsibility. So I’ve heard women say, I love it because if something goes wrong in the family, it’s not my fault, it’s my husband’s fault. He’s the leader, he messed up.

“The Life You Want, You Can Build For Yourself”Anne (16:07):
That’s interesting. I’ve never been that type of person. It might feel like safety to them, right? That maybe that’s what feels safe to them. But that’s, that’s interesting. I think a lot of women just feel like they can’t maybe get what they want. Like what they want is a peaceful life. And instead of them maybe going to law school, they’re like, oh, I will marry an attorney. Right. Or something like that. And I wanna tell women, the life you want you can build for yourself. You can do what you want. You don’t need to find someone else to do it for you. And it’s a long process and it’s a lot of hard work, but you are worth it. And the cool thing is you are the one that you can rely on, right? You can depend on yourself and you can show up for yourself, which is really important. And I think that’s what God wants for his daughters. What do you think God has to say about fundamentalism and patriarchy?

Emily (17:05):
Well, as I began my, what I call deconstruction process, and that was not deconstruction from Christianity, but deconstructing from fundamentalism and realizing what, what Jesus actually looked like, what his character really looked like. And not just depending on what I have been taught all these years about what the Bible says about X, Y, Z. And so when I study the scriptures, I prefer to read them through the lens of the heart of Jesus. And when I first started counseling, I joined a Bible study and we were in the Book of John. It was the best book that I could have started with because I think out of all four gospels, John really gets to the heart and the character of Jesus probably better than than the others. And you see his tender care toward women and how he broke these social norms again and again, whether it was his conversation with the Samaritan woman and his graciousness and kindness toward her, he did not shame her.

Healthy Relationships Do NOT Include a “Power Over” Dynamic(18:21):
He saw her as a victim and he had such a love for her and he empowered her as the first evangelist. Like he not only was the first, she was the first one that he told that he was the Messiah, but then he told her to go and, and tell the town he didn’t shame her for, for the circumstances she was living in, but he actually gave her respect and honor by speaking to her. And we see this with the women that accompanied him in his ministry on earth. And we see his, his respect again and again. And so I encourage women when you’re reading scriptures, keep that in mind and realize that nowhere do we see Jesus encouraging one human having power and control over another. We don’t see it in Genesis either. When God created an Adam and Eve, he gave them dominion over the earth together.

(19:31):
We don’t see that he gave any kind of authority over one human, over another. So I don’t believe that was ever part of his plan. So whether it’s in Genesis or it is seeing God’s provision for women through the Old Testament that were downcast in society, they were shunned, they were abuse victims. We saw his provision for them in the Old Testament, then we saw his, his actual personal interaction with women in the New Testament. And then we see the beginnings of the early church and we see how women had positions in the early church of ministry. It’s like again and again, I look through these verses that fundamentalists want to pick out, that seem to support patriarchy. And I say, let’s look at that through the whole picture. Let’s look at that through the whole lens and really see does does God really encourage patriarchy over women? And I, I just don’t see it happening.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (20:33):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

(21:23):
Back to our interview. God loves us, loves us, and wants us to have peace and also wants us to be able to benefit from our own righteousness. Part of the problem with abuse is regardless of how righteous you are, you cannot benefit from your own righteousness when you’re being abused. Because the point of righteousness, the point of being healthy for, for my listening friends who perhaps aren’t religious, so let’s just maybe call it the point of being healthy, right? Emotionally healthy is to have peace, is to bring happiness and joy into our lives. That’s the whole point. But when you’re being abused, you cannot feel that no matter how healthy you are because you’re just constantly experiencing someone else’s bad choices. And that is no fun. Right? We all know right. That that’s miserable. So I think like God wants us to be able to benefit from our own healthy and righteous choices.

“As You Submit to Abuse, The Abuser Just Gets What They Want”Emily (22:33):
Yes. Yes. And though he said we would endure pain, I do believe he has so many good gifts for us here to enjoy. And I believe that he cares about his daughters and the safety of his daughters and he would never want his daughters to be submitting to abuse in the name of God.

Anne (22:55):
Yeah. I think when women do that, they also feel a sense of perhaps control. Right? Maybe if I do submit my life will be good and things will turn out okay not knowing that there’s no end to abuse. So as you submit to abuse, the abuser just gets what they want. Sure. And they continue to say, oh, this worked so I can continue doing this. So submitting doesn’t, doesn’t solve the problem when it comes to abuse,

Emily (23:19):
Right?

Anne (23:20):
For women who are beginning to deconstruct their personal experiences and realizing that they also suffered from spiritual abuse and that part of the, the reason why, um, they were in so much fog is because it wasn’t just their husband, it was also the system of misogyny. What are some of your favorite resources for women beginning to deconstruct from the fog of abuse?

Resources For Women Deconstructing AbuseEmily (23:47):
There are so many, um, but some of my top ones, I would say that specifically break down the patriarchal mindset and um, will perhaps give you some new insight on those verses that have previously been weaponized against you. Uh, one of my favorite books is 10 Lies The Church Tells Women by Jay Lee Grady. Rebecca Davis has a series of books called Untwisting Scriptures, which is very good. The Eden Podcast with Bruce CE Fleming is great to dig in if you really want to study Genesis and Creation and how God designed relationships from the beginning. Um, and then a couple of other books that I love are Recovering From Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Amy Bird and The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Allison Barr.

Anne (24:48):
Thank you for sharing those. I appreciate that. You know, one of the things that abusive men have stolen from women is their faith. So, so many women have experienced all this abuse and so just even talking about scripture or even attending a a a service or something is so traumatic. So for women who are listening who are really traumatized by even just the thought of reading scripture or you know, something like that, our heart goes out to you. We know that that has been very difficult and I want to leave a space for you if you’ve chosen to step away from your faith because of your trauma. And we honor that here knowing that that’s a difficult, difficult situation. So for women in that situation, Emily, do you have anything to say as we conclude about, um, perhaps some just comfort for them that perhaps where they are is just fine and God loves them anyway, or some, some type of comfort that you might be able to offer women who have lost their faith due to abuse?

“It’s Completely Okay to Take a Step Back”Emily (25:52):
Yes, I agree. It is completely okay to take a step back whether that is taking a step back from church because you’ve been an abusive of church is your whole life, and instead you choose to find safe community elsewhere. I’ve stepped away from church for a few years, um, at the beginning of my deconstruction and I did eventually find a place that I have found to be safe so far. But that can be pretty uncommon. And so if you need to totally take a step back, there are, there is so much safe community to be found elsewhere, um, and healing to be found in safe relationships outside of the church. I did dig into scripture because I had had scripture used as a weapon against me and I wanted to know what it really said. But there are books of the Bible that I still have not opened in the past six years through my deconstruction process because they’re just too triggering and certain passages of scripture that I just can’t do.

(27:02):
And I think God understands that and um, I think he speaks to me in other ways. So whether you’re taking a step back only on certain things or just entirely, I think there’s just so much healing to be found in therapy, safe relationships. Um, if you wanna continue to pray, I think you can do that anywhere. You know, and I, I think God sees your pain, he sees the abuse you’ve been through and he’s weeping for you because of all the abuse you’ve been through. And I think he wants to heal that, but I think he also understands that space is needed sometimes and you need to step away from organized religion for a while in order to heal and sometimes to find the heart of God.

BTR.ORG Is Interfaith – All Are Welcome & Loved HereAnne (28:08):
Yeah. And I’m so grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We’re interfaith. I am an active devout member of my faith and attend church and read scriptures and stuff like that, but I really respect all women for where they are and I want them to know that they’re welcome here. And I’m so grateful for those of you who maybe aren’t of any faith or maybe there are atheists listening. And I just wanna thank you for giving us a space to be able to share our experience in our way and be able to define what this has meant for us. Right. And, and everyone is welcome here. So thank, I’m so grateful that BTR is such a robust community of women who might disagree about, you know, whatever, but we all agree about abuse and that we need to support each other and it’s a really strong community in that way. And so thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.

Emily (29:03):
Thank you. It’s been amazing. It’s been wonderful to get to meet you and to chat and, um, thank you for the opportunity.

Anne (29:11):
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

View Details

If you grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home, you may be all-too familiar with the patriarchal structure that not only excuses abuse, but often encourages it.

Emily Elizabeth Anderson is on the BTR.ORG podcast, sharing her experiences with the fundamentalist ATI cult. Recognizing and then escaping the abusiveness of her upbringing has led her to supporting other victims – including the BTR.ORG community. Read the full transcript below and listen to the BTR.ORG podcast for more. H

Fundamentalism & Patriarchy Are Intertwined

“Every fundamentalist teaching I’ve ever come across also goes hand-in-hand with patriarchy. It looks like men doing the teaching, the interpreting of scripture. Women are told again and again that they are easily deceived like Eve was. You have to have male authority over you for your protection, for your safety, for your provision, for interpretation of scripture. Women are considered to be beneath men. They are the property of men. Women must have some kind of male headship and authority rather than God being their direct authority.”

Emily Elizabeth Anderson

You can’t have fundamentalist teachings without patriarchy lurking, ominously. Patriarchy is simply disguised misogyny and misogyny is at the root of abuse.

Using Religion to Excuse & Enable AbuseFundamentalist religious communities use patriarchal (misogynistic) doctrines to excuse and enable abuse:

“Patriarchy is a very nice package for abuse and power and control. So a lot of abusers like to use it and like to claim that it is of God – and it is not. And they like to feed to women that this is what God wants of you. And it is not. Patriarchy is used as a way to excuse abusive behavior.”

Emily Elizabeth Anderson

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouWhether you’ve recently begun to wonder if there are abusive patterns in your faith community, or you’ve been nuanced for quite some time, the BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place for you to process your trauma and find a community of women who will never judge you on your journey. We love you, we believe you.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. If you’re new to the BTR podcast, you may wanna consider starting with the oldest episode first and then making your way forward chronologically. If you do that, you’ll take the journey with me as I learn more and more. You’ll hear a change in my voice as I grow in confidence and skills. It’ll be like a friend holding your hand as you make your own way to peace. No matter what time of year it is, no matter what you’re going through right now, no matter if you thought things were under control or you had hope that things would get better, but you realize you’re back to square one if you find yourself needing support, we’re here.

(02:33):
I am so honored to have Emily Elizabeth Anderson on today’s episode. She’s a Christian blogger and a trauma recovery advocate for people who have experienced abuse within a Christian environment. After growing up in a fundamentalist cult for 23 years and experiencing childhood domestic violence, Emily began her journey to recovery in 2015 and eventually found Jesus to be her ultimate healer. She soon turned her passion for writing into a blog, and her story has since been featured on several media outlets, including NPR. She married her best friend Joshua in 2020, and together they are passionate about educating on the realities of trauma, survival, and recovery, as well as supporting survivors they meet through their online community. To read more of Emily’s story, please visit her Facebook community, Thriving Forward. Welcome, Emily.

Emily (03:48):
Oh, thank you Anne, so much for having me on today. I’m so excited about this. I’ve been looking forward to this for quite a while.

Emily’s Definition of Fundamental ChristianityAnne (03:54):
So let’s start with your own personal story. Can you talk to us about your personal experiences in fundamentalism and patriarchy? And as you’re explaining that, would you also mind sharing your definition of fundamentalism?

Emily (04:09):
Absolutely. So I was raised in a Baptist Christian home. My parents were both school teachers at what I consider a fundamentalist patriarchal Christian school. So there’s so many different definitions, I would say, of fundamentalism. There’s the definition where Christians just take the word of God as inherent and they take it literally. And I would say I am a Christian still, and I would say I still believe in the inherency of God’s word, and I still take it pretty literally, other than the obvious poetic passages, you know. But my experience with fundamentalism was actually a, I would say almost prosperity gospel type experience where you were told that Christians have a very black and white world and everything is either good or evil. And these teachers and instructors that I grew up listening to all had their ideas of what was considered right and what was considered wrong.

(05:26):
And we’re talking about things that are not actually laid out in scripture very clearly. Things like, um, what kind of music you can listen to or how you’re supposed to dress, those kinds of things. So actually just a lot of the, a lot of the extra just stuff that Christians can disagree on, that there can be different variances in opinions on what is considered Christ-like behavior. But in a fundamentalist world is paired down to everything. Everything’s black and white. There is no gray area whatsoever. And so if you follow all the roles, then your life is going to be amazing and God’s going to bless you. And if you are experiencing any kind of hardship in your life, it is because you’re obviously not following all the rules. And if you think you are, you probably have some kind of secrets in hidden in your heart.

Fundamentalism & PatriarchyAnne (06:21):
So would you say in with your definition of fundamentalism, that there are men who are defining these things? So for example, they’re perhaps defining what you’re supposed to wear or what you’re supposed to read or what you’re supposed to watch or the way you’re supposed to spend your time or something like that and there’s very little autonomy for women?

Emily (06:42):
Yes, for sure. Every fundamentalist teaching I’ve ever come across also goes hand in hand with patriarchy. And that’s gonna be the primary topic of what we’re discussing today and what patriarchy looks like. But for the most part, it looks like men doing the teaching, the interpreting of scripture. Women are told again and again that they are easily deceived like Eve was. And so you have to have male authority over you for your protection, for your safety, for your provision, for interpretation of scripture. And uh, women are just considered to be beneath men. They are the property of men. They must have some kind of male headship and authority rather than God being their direct authority.

Anne (07:31):
I did a webinar with Sheila Gregoire and Patrick Weaver and Sarah McDougal the other night. You can find it floating around on Facebook. And one of the things they talked about in that webinar was that back in the day, women were property and then around the 1800’s that that didn’t really fly anymore. And so Christians sort of picked up this, well, the reason they’re less then is because God ordained it. So, and I thought that was a really interesting way of like, it has, the patriarchy has sort of evolved the reasons for why women are less than, and none of them hold water, but they’re, they have to have some kind of reason. And unfortunately in the Christian world, women have really bought into this and has really harmed us.

“Patriarchy Is Used As a Way to Excuse Abusive Behavior”Emily (08:13):
Yeah, for sure. I think patriarchy is a very nice package for abuse and power and control. And so a lot of abusers like to use it and like to claim that it is of God and it is not. And they like to feed to women that this is what God wants of you. And it is not, it’s not always the case that I have seen again and again, that patriarchy is used, um, as a way to excuse abusive behavior.

Anne (08:46):
Thank you for covering those, those basics for us. I really appreciate it. Will you now share your personal experiences with fundamentalism and patriarchy?

Emily (08:54):
Yes. So as I said, I was raised first in just a Baptist home and we went to a pretty fundamentalist patriarchal church that was also a school. And my parents were teachers at that school. And so I was raised in that school system from first to fourth grade, but in fifth grade, my parents left that church and moved on to a different church. But at the same time, my, my mother decided to homeschool me. And at that point we joined the Advanced Training Institute, which is a homeschool cult run by a man named Bill Goard. Goard initially founded his ministry, the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts back in the 1960s. And it eventually evolved to the Institute in Basic Life principles. And that was the parent organization. And then ATI, the Advanced Training Institute, was started in the eighties when the homeschooling movement really started to pick up and we had homeschooling material that we would work through every day.

Patriarchy Influencing Cult Control(10:05):
So every family did things different. Some families exclusively used the ATI materials for their homeschool education. It was not a comprehensive education by any stretch of the imagination, but other families like mine chose to use the AT materials just for Bible study time. And then we did, uh, thorough education on top of that. So in addition to using the ATI materials, the primary one was called the Wisdom booklets, and there was 52 booklets and you did one booklet per month, and then when you got to the end, you would just start back over with number one again. And these wisdom booklets were meant to be used for all ages of children all at the same time. So families would gather together and you would have from toddlers all the way up to high school students reading these wisdom booklets together and having family discussions based off of them.

(11:10):
So with my family, my mother and I just read through the wisdom booklets first thing in the morning, and then we did other schoolwork later in the day. But also there was homeschool conferences that families were encouraged to attend. Each year you would attend one conference per year, but they would have a few select locations. You picked whichever one was closest to you in the United States. And I loved the ATI conferences because in a cult, you live in your own unique culture and you are basically raised in this little bubble and you’re told that anyone who doesn’t believe exactly the way you do is potentially dangerous or not a Christian, or is going to be a bad influence at the very least. And so you are encouraged to really only fellowship with what we would say like-minded believers, so someone who believes very, very similar to you.

TW: Sexual Abuse Grooming(12:12):
And so the conferences were my safe place every year because I was surrounded by families that looked exactly like I looked. We all dressed the same, we all talked the same, we all consumed the same media and had the same belief systems. So felt like a very, very safe place. I didn’t come to the understanding until many, many years later that this was actually a cult. And this is one of the classic cult environments that you experienced. And part of my story is I was groomed, sexually groomed, by Bill Goard starting at the age of 13 when he was in his seventies and and he is the leader of this cult. He is the leader. And that sexual grooming lasted from the age of 13 until I was 18 years old. That looked like Bill approaching me at every conference and trying to convince me to leave home and to permanently move up to the headquarters for the organization, which were in Chicago.

(13:22):
And he did this quite frequently. He would consistently have teenagers leave their homes for extended periods of time, whether that is months or upwards, two years. And they would move to headquarters and they would work at headquarters, whether that was just in the shipping department or they were answering phone calls or they were working in the kitchens, or a lot of the teenage girls were personally working with Bill and doing more secretarial work for him. So he grew between for six years, asking me to eventually come up there. I did have a short period of time where I was up there when I was 18 years old. I was only up there for about 10 days. Thank God my mother was alongside me. And that 10 day interaction with Bill was very negative. His behavior toward me became increasingly abusive and inappropriate, and it basically just became a war between us where he wanted me to stay and my mother and I did not feel comfortable with that.

Accepting that ATI is a Cult & Taking Action (14:34):
So eventually we chose to go back home and about a year later, I came across a website that was created by survivors of ATI, who had been raised in the system and who were now adults who had come out of it and had understood that the belief system was very toxic. And they were starting to write articles online about what is toxic about the teachings and how this was actually a cult. And this is not biblical. And so I came across this website and I started reading stories from other young women who had been sexually targeted by Bill, or at least they had allegations of such behavior. And, um, reading those articles, I realized that what I had experienced was not just grandfatherly affection as I had been told it was, but it actually crossed a line into, uh, sexual harassment. And later, after a few more years, I ended up joining a lawsuit with 19 other victims who had various allegations.

(15:45):
And we fought in that lawsuit for five years until 2020. And the lawsuit did not conclude the way we had hoped in the fact that we had to withdraw it before we went to trial. And I can’t go into all the reasons why we did, but there was, there were various legal reasons why we chose to withdraw, but we have not taken back any of our allegations or our stance on what we believe happened there. And today, I choose to use my voice for good and I try to warn people of the abuse that is quite common in patriarchal organizations and hopefully give some insight to victims and share that this really is not a biblical system at all.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (16:35):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations, as well as infographics at the back.

(17:25):
Back to our interview. Thank you so much for sharing. That sounds really difficult, especially when you might not be believed because there wasn’t a particular time he actually, this is gonna sound very graphic, but like penetrated you or something, right? Like people don’t realize that all this emotional and psychological grooming, even if it does not result in some type of physical assault or sexual assault per se, that it’s still very damaging to victims.

“Often in Fundamentalist Circles, I See a Lack of Sex Education” Emily (18:05):
Yes, absolutely. And oh, that was a big turning point in my deconstruction process. And when I began professional therapy, I actually began professional therapy just a month after I joined the lawsuit. And it was December 15th, 2015, and I now call that day my Freedom Day. So we’re actually recording this on December 14th. So tomorrow is my Freedom Day and I’m celebrating six years out of the cult. But part of my initial therapy was to help me to understand what actually constitutes as abuse and what sexual abuse looks like. Often in fundamentalist circles I see a lack of sex education because usually these groups will focus on the purity movement, the courtship movement, and that has all its own problems. But usually students are not told what sexual abuse really looks like. And so not only did I experience this harassment from Bill, but I also throughout my teenage years was sexually abused by my father. And I was molested by my father at one point, but I was never penetrated. So I didn’t believe that it was abuse. I thought in order for it to be abuse, there had to be some kind of penetration. But the emotional ramifications and the trauma that ensues and the PTSD can be very severe even when you are dealing with just sexual harassment.

Anne (19:51):
Quote unquote “just”…

Emily (19:53):
Yes, yes, exactly right. Yes. More, more mild instances you could say.

Anne (20:00):
I don’t know if I’d even call it more mild. It’s all awful. All of it is awful. But perhaps in some, in some women’s minds, depending on their, um, understanding about abuse, like if someone hits you in the face, it’s awful, but you know, they hit you in the face, whereas the psychological and emotional stuff is so damaging partly because we can’t figure out what’s going on and it’s so confusing and so that is so damaging. And so I never want to use the word just yeah, because it’s very, very damaging. And I would say most women who have been physically assaulted and there is no woman who’s been physically assaulted without also being emotionally and psychologically assaulted. I would say most say that the, the psychological and emotional abuse or the part that they had the hardest time healing from wrapping your head around it, trying to figure out what happened, questioning yourself, all of that stuff made it so difficult to like figure out what was going on.

“I Believe Emotional Abuse is a Form of Physical Abuse” Emily (21:02):
Yes. Something that I’ve written about several times on my blog is that I believe emotional abuse is a form of physical abuse. Another part of my story is because of the abuse that I was experiencing, both through Goard and through my father, I developed an autoimmune disease at 11 years old, which is quite young. I was officially diagnosed when I was 13 with Crohn’s Disease. And you can look in the photo albums and you can see when my symptoms first began, and it correlates exactly when the abuse from my father began. And so I have talked to a lot of survivors and a lot of women who are very confused and they try to justify or excuse their partner’s abusive actions because they say, well, he, he’s not physically abusive, he doesn’t hit me, you know, he’s never been physically violent toward me or anything like that. But then they go on to explain very severe and in-depth emotional abuse and psychological abuse and intellectual abuse and financial, there’s, there’s so many different layers of abuse. And all of those different layers of abuse can cause a stress reaction in the body, which begins to tear down your body systems and wax out your hormones and causes systemic inflammation and systemic infections. And so one of the very common repercussions of emotional abuse is actually physical illness. So really it’s, it’s not any less of abuse because he didn’t hit you.

Anne (22:55):
Yeah. I really, really want that to hit home with victims who are listening who think they don’t have enough to warrant them making their way to safety. You know, that like it’s not so bad yet that I have to do something about it. Like it is, um, already to the point where you need to seek safety, emotional safety, psychological safety, sexual safety, all those things are so, so important. I’m so sorry to hear about your disorder. That is so hard.

Dealing with Long-Lasting Repercussions of AbuseEmily (23:29):
Well, thank you. And it’s a daily journey to try to heal from it. I have struggled since I’ve been married these last couple years because I believe walking into marriage, I still had this idea that, well, if an abusive relationship started my disease, then surely a healthy relationship will help progress some of the symptoms. And I haven’t really experienced that as much as I thought I have had a very loving, cherishing husband and his behavior toward me has been so incredibly healing to me emotionally. But I still deal with the physical symptoms on a daily basis. And I am having to realize that if my body endured two decades of abuse, it’s gonna take a while being out of that abusive situation for my body to very, very slowly heal. And honestly, I’m probably always going to be dealing with some kind of physical repercussion.

Anne (24:41):
That’s another reason why it’s so concerning to me that people say things like, oh, just forgive or move on or whatever. And, and I think it’s cause people don’t realize that there are very real tangible consequences; that we live with as abuse victims on a daily basis. That it isn’t just a matter of like moving forward with our lives. We move forward with our lives the best way that we can also continuing to deal with the consequences of being victimized. And that is, is hard for each of us in our own way and with, with all the consequences that we face. And it’s unfortunate that the society at large, number one, they don’t understand abuse, but number two, they don’t understand what true change looks like in, in an abuser, if an abuser genuinely understood what they had done, they would be making restitution to their victims for the rest of their lives.

Emily (25:36):
Yes. Yes. And the consequences of abuse and sin can continue to last to some degree.

Anne (25:42):
Exactly. You used the word cult and you said that you weren’t aware that you were in a cult at the time. When you say the word cult, what do you mean now that you’re out of it that identifies to you that it’s a cult?

Emily Defines a CultEmily (25:57):
Well, I think there are several different indicators of what a cult may look like. Usually there is one primary person in authority, um, that is often receiving revelations from God if this is supposedly a Christian organization. So we saw that with Goard where he wrote quite a few books and came up with some very interesting interpretations of scripture that are really not found anywhere else. He loved to write out a certain idea of his and then cherry pick a verse to try to support his idea. If you actually go back and you look up the verses that are supposed to be supporting his statement, you realize that that verse is completely taken outta context and it absolutely has nothing to do with it, with what he’s talking about. Most of the time in ATI you had to pay, so there’s usually some kind of financial investment in a cult.

(27:07):
So we had to pay a yearly membership to be a part. Um, speaking of memberships, there was a very rigorous approval application. Um, so cults usually require the members to hold to certain very, very strict standards. And if you do not hold to those standards, then you are not allowed to be a part of the organization anymore. Um, so we experience that for sure. You’ve got an authoritarian leader who is, um, usually abusing their power. Um, and oftentimes families become very isolated. And as I said earlier, they become very leery of others who don’t not believe exactly how they believe. And so there’s a lot of isolation that happens. Um, you’re kind of living in a bubble and if like a child grows up and they become an adult and they decide not to follow with the cult standards anymore, oftentimes ex-communication is a result of that and family relationships are broken off because you can’t fellowship with somebody who is not following the cult lifestyle anymore.

Anne (28:29):
Okay. So some pretty severe consequences for people who disagree.

Emily (28:35):
Yes.

Anne (28:36):
Okay. That is, ugh, that’s really, really hard. So I’m, I’m grateful. Thank you for sharing that with us. I’m gonna pause the conversation here with Emily Elizabeth and we will have her back on next week. So stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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If you’re like many victims of emotional and psychological abuse and sexual coercion, it may be hard to believe that good, healthy men are out there – but here’s a mind-blowing truth for you: good men really do exist.

Gretchen Baskerville, author of The Life-Saving Divorce is back on the podcast with Anne. Together, they’re giving us the inside scoop on, not only the fact that healthy men do indeed exist, but what characteristics they exhibit. Tune in to the free BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Healthy, Good Men? Prove it. 😳

“People ask me, ‘In all of your work with abusers or getting to know thousands of victims who are women who have been abused by men, do you just hate men? Do you see abuse in all men?’ And, and you know, what’s interesting is the more I’ve learned about abuse and the more I’ve come to recognize healthy behaviors, I actually have more hope now than I ever had before.”

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

When you’re in the throes of an abusive relationship, it may be difficult to believe that good men actually do exist, especially if you’ve been further abused by male clergy, male therapists, and male relatives.

Abuse perpetuated by men against women is prolific and in this community, the trauma that women experience is often horrifying and long-lasting – however, it may be healing to know that there ARE men who do not abuse women.

How Can I Tell If He’s Healthy vs. Abusive? Sometimes it’s difficult to know if a man is genuinely healthy, because abusive men are keenly manipulative and can imitate healthy behaviors. However, understanding that healthy men consistently live these key, healthy traits can help you identify healthy men. Healthy men:

• Honor and respect your boundaries without push-back or defensiveness
• Do what they say they’re going to do
• Are secure in their relationships and do not seek sexual contact outside of their marriages
• Don’t see non-sexual things and people through a sexual lens
• Sometimes have a difficult time understanding the motives and behaviors of abusive men
• Don’t set off your Sacred Internal Warning System
• Allow and encourage you to be yourself
• Do not require you to walk on eggshells

What Does a Relationship With a Healthy Man Look Like?

“I remarried at age 57, so I was single a long, long time. I was plump, I was opinionated, I was used to having authority over men because I was a top executive in a company and I had many men reporting directly to me. And I just came to the point in my life where I decided that I’m not gonna apologize for who I am. And lo and behold, a man came in my life who I had worked with about 10 years before, and we had really liked each other and he loved who I was. He loved having an outspoken, fast driving, wife and girlfriend. And we have had a lovely, lovely marriage for over five years now.”

Gretchen Baskerville, author

In relationships, abusive men seek to erase the identity of the victim. They condition the victim to walk on eggshells and become less of who she was before.

Healthy men do the opposite – they love their partners for exactly who they are and encourage them to bask in their autonomy, becoming more and more of who they want to be.

Gretchen describes being plump, opinionated, and unapologetic – and deeply loved for those characteristics, and everything else that makes her who she is.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG, we know the pain of betrayal trauma and emotional abuse – you deserve support. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. Gretchen Baskerville is back. On today’s episode, we were talking about the myths of being single. So if you didn’t hear last week’s episode, listen to that first and then join us here. We’re jumping in on the part of the conversation where Gretchen was talking about that she thought she would be married rather quickly, and a lot of women how they feel like if they get divorced, surely they’ll be remarried within a couple years rather than considering staying single for a period of time and/or indefinitely. So we’ll jump in right there.

Gretchen (03:52):
The idea that all your problems are gonna disappear, you know, two to three years after your divorce, no, that’s just not gonna happen. What I tell people is you’ll go back to your normal level of happiness within two to three years. But I’m a person who was dragged into court for the next 10 years, and I can tell you I was on my knees in prayer. I was asking people to pray for me. I was frightened. I was having insomnia, all kinds of things, just begging the Lord, please affect the, the mind and the heart of the judge. You know, I need help here. I can’t, I can’t have shared custody with this man. So when I say that by year five, I was happy, uh, that doesn’t mean that my external circumstances had all resolved themselves and I was in just as much danger ex from external circumstances as I had been. But there’s something about watching, uh, the Lord rescue you day after day, week after week, month after month, that you start to realize, okay, he’s got my back. And that’s really important.

“Who Do I Want To Be? What Kind of Life Do I Want to Live?” Anne (05:08):
And then also as you build your support network of, of awesome female friends that they’ll have your back to, they’re a blessing and a gift from God, and you can recognize them as that. Really quick, you said something, you’ll get back to your normal level of happiness. I wanna kind of acknowledge that there are women in our community and listening to this podcast who perhaps married 18, right? Or 20. And so they didn’t really have an opportunity to even explore that level of happiness essentially before they married their abuser. And then for the next maybe 10, 15, 20, 30, who whoever knows long, they were being abused continually. And so they might think, what is my normal level of happiness? I don’t even know who I am. I don’t know what I’m doing. Wanna just acknowledge that It’s also an opportunity to not just go back to your quote unquote normal level of happiness, but also to create who you are, to decide for yourself who you want to be and the kind of life you wanna live, and start working toward that. And, and that’s really an exciting time as you start to like, make goals for yourself and see those goals come to pass. And, you know, start with maybe little ones or whatever you wanna do. It could be any goal that I wanna wake up at 6:00 AM every day or something that could just be simple things like that, that that can help you start to create the life that you want.

Gretchen (06:29):
One of the little things that really, I don’t know, made me feel alive was learning how to fix basic things around the house by watching YouTube videos. Wow. I just kind of believed that fixing things was a man’s job, and that makes you kind of feel helpless, right? You know, the first time you watch a basic YouTube video on how to change the flapper on a toilet, you know, and you do it yourself and you go, wow. I mean, I’d have to watch these YouTube videos like five times. Okay, I’m, I’m ready, I’m ready, I’m gonna do it. But the sense of accomplishment you get of standing on your own two feet is just priceless.

Anne (07:09):
One of your myths. Um, you said that they’re spiritually lacking or immature, and that’s why these women aren’t married. So can you talk about that myth?

Myth: Single/Divorced Women Are “Spiritually Lacking/Immature”Gretchen (07:18):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s so many myths that we get in our religious communities, right? If you’re divorced and you haven’t remarried, you must be spiritually lacking. You must have some secret sin, or maybe you are not mature. Another big myth that I see all the time in churches is if you divorce, you’re gonna bring your problems into the next marriage, and it’s gonna fail too, which is an ugly, ugly thing to say. And it totally ignores the fact that you weren’t the cheater. You weren’t the abuser. You weren’t the addict, and you’re not bringing them into your next marriage. So I think there’s a lot of spiritual messages. Another one is that if you were just godly and if you prayed in some faith traditions, they believe in fasting, that you, if you kind of did a lot of self-examination and turned yourself inside out and tried to find that secret sin and uncovered it, that God would suddenly bring you the love of your life. Another one is that you’re being punished for something and, and that’s rarely spoken. That’s kind of just this under undercurrent that you’re being punished for some sin you committed. I’ve found women who maybe slept with their high school boyfriend one time, and then they ended up marrying an abuser and felt like, okay, this is God’s punishment. I deserve it, and I have to stay in this. And then I’ll never ever find anyone wonderful to marry.

Anne (08:45):
Even that they slept with their abuser before they were married. And their punishment is then that they have to be married to them forever.

Gretchen (08:53):
Yes, yes, yes. I hear that a lot too. I, I, I slept with him, so I had to marry him.

Anne (09:00):
Yeah. I didn’t feel right about it, or it didn’t, it wasn’t going well. And then he’s been abusive ever since. I’ve been trying to work it out ever since. And they, it’s almost as they feel like they deserve that because they made a mistake. And the interesting thing about if you’re a Christian about Christ is that you can be redeemed, right? And he came to deliver you, right? He came to save you. So if you made that mistake of sleeping with your abuser, and so you feel like you have to stay married to him, that’s not what Christ would say. He would say, I came to redeem you and to save you and to deliver you.

Gretchen’s Favorite Divorce Story With JesusGretchen (09:36):
When we actually look at the life of Christ, it’s a whole different ballgame than some of these covert messages we’re getting from our spiritual communities. So for example, Luke 13, I call Luke 13 my favorite divorce story with Jesus, except for it doesn’t mention divorce anywhere. So Jesus is in the synagogue and he sees a woman who has been disabled by an evil spirit for, what is it, 18 years. And she’s hunched over and he calls out to her, it’s the Sabbath, and says, come and be healed. She takes the step. Now, she knows that the synagogue leaders are not gonna like this, but she is courageous and she takes the step toward Jesus and he heals her. Oh my goodness. The synagogue leaders go nuts. And they said, there are six days a week that you can, you know, heal people, but that’s work.

(10:40):
This is the Sabbath. You can’t work on the Sabbath. And it, and they tell the rest of the crowds of disabled people to go away. And Jesus is having nothing of this. This is Luke 13 again. And he says, you know, you guys even take on the Sabbath. You take your donkeys and your oxen and water them, okay? And you treat them well on the Sabbath. This woman is a daughter of Abraham, and you’re treating her worse than a donkey. And she is a precious daughter. Jesus isn’t having any of this, um, sanc harmoniousness. He came to release us from evil and deliver us from evil. And that’s, you know, the, the prayer many of us pray on a regular basis. And so, are we going to take that prayer seriously? Do we want the Lord to deliver us from evil? Yes. That’s what he came to do.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (11:38):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations, as well as infographics at the back.

“Maybe If You Made Them a Basket of Brownies…” (12:28):
Back to our interview. So you were mentioning like trying to find your own secret sin, trying to make yourself perfect. Right? So for, for the maybe agnostic or secular women who are listening, thank you for listening as we share our own faith traditions and, and stories from our own faith. Thank you. But I do wanna talk about a few secular things that, that might play into this. Some of them might be like, you need to work out more, or if you were fun or if you were easier to talk to than maybe you’d be married. My dad, who I adore, but he was ridiculous when, you know, I was in my twenties and he would always say things like, well, maybe if you made them a basket of brownies.

(13:19):
And you wrote a nice note. Did you, did you say at the end of the date, I had a very good time. I really enjoyed your company. I would like to go out with you again. You know, and I’m like, Dad, I don’t think I have to say that. I mean, I could be like, yeah, I had a good time, but like, there’s not some formulaic thing that you do. And if you do these steps, then you will get married. Right? Or also, I’m not not married because I am not doing some certain thing. We’ve all met women who are socially awkward . I might be one of them. Um, or they might not be quote unquote the most attractive or something like that, who have very loving husbands who have good relationships with non-abusive men. So you don’t have to like be perfect. And one of my favorite things to say when people say, well, you’ve gotta put your best foot forward…

Enjoying Life As a Single Woman(14:10):
I always wanna say no, because I don’t want someone to fall in love with my foot. I want them to fall in love with me . So I’m just gonna be myself. I love that. And I would tell this to my dad, who he would just shake his head and be like, oh, Anne is never gonna get married. She just doesn’t get it. And so that was also, I think for me, an extra hard thing that at 30 I get married and it feels like this miracle to people cuz they maybe thought I was never gonna get married. And then to get divorced after that and be single again is a little bit of a like, oh, so she really is meant to be single . Yes. You’re distracted. You know? And you know what’s funny is I’m like, maybe I really was. I really enjoy being single. It’s awesome. Like maybe that is God’s will for me. I don’t know. Right. I really like it, so it’s okay with me if that’s, if that’s how I operate the most happily in the world as a single person, that’s fine.

Gretchen (15:11):
Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I think singleness has tremendous advantages. You know, just the freedom to go and do whatever you wanna do whenever you wanna do it is really amazing. And the freedom to have friendships with such a wide variety of people. But I wanted to go back to what you said where we, we have to feel like we have to, to fulfill this womanly mold. You know, like your dad’s saying, you know, make the brownies, you know, you just have to kind of reject the myth that says all men want this. All men want you to be feminine, sweet and quiet and a good cook and all that. And I thought, I’m sorry, that’s just not me. I like, um, I come from a car family, an automobile family, and I’ve always loved cars. And I cried when my parents sold the first car I remember from childhood.

“There Are These Little Messages That You Can’t Be You“(16:03):
And my father drove sports cars, uh, not super expensive ones, but more like the little pocket rockets. And I knew what people were thinking, you know, good Christian men see a middle-aged single woman, you know, driving her, her Corvette , and they don’t find that attractive. They don’t like women who are confident drivers or they might say, you know, good Christian men don’t want women who attract attention to themselves. And so there’s these messages that you can’t be you. And I’m here to say that , I, I remarried at age 57, so I was, I was single a long, long time. I was plump, I was opinionated, I was used to having authority over men because I was a, a top executive in a company and I had many men, uh, reporting directly to me. And I just came to the point in my life where I’m not gonna apologize for who I am. And lo and behold, a man came in my life who I had worked with about 10 years before, and we had really liked each other and he loved who I was. He loved having an outspoken, fast driving, uh, wife and girlfriend. And, um, we have had a lovely, lovely marriage for over five years now.

Anne (17:29):
That is wonderful. Yeah. And I, right this very second, I don’t really wanna date and I don’t wanna get married, but then I’ll have moments where I kind of do. So it’s sort of back and forth sometimes, but I’m looking forward to someone finding me right. And being like, oh, wow, this is fun. I like this. One other thing I wanna bring up, and this goes back to spiritual communities, but another thing that I found is that people would frequently say, well, have you prayed about it as if you’ve never prayed about it? Ever? And then they tell you the story of the night that they prayed to find their righteous husband and the next day they met them at the dance or they ran into them at the library or whatever. And so because they had that experience, they assume that you have never prayed about it. That the reason you’re single is because you don’t talk to God apparently, or that you’re not in tune or something like that. I find that to be really funny because so many women that I’ve met have prayed to find a loving husband every day for years and years and years and years and years. And still that has not occurred.

Dealing With Insensitive Comments Gretchen (18:38):
Yeah. It’s really offensive, uh, that they would, they would assume that about us. You know, obviously you did something wrong. That’s the automatic knee jerk reaction.

Anne (18:49):
You either did something wrong or you haven’t done the right thing.

Gretchen (18:52):
Yes. Okay. Omission or commission. Exactly.

Anne (18:55):
Yeah. Yeah.

Gretchen (18:55):
At any rate, you could have fixed this had you just done something, you know, different. And you know that life just isn’t that way. I mean, the rain falls on the just, and the unjust, some of the most evil people have had these charmed lives, you know, it just doesn’t work that way.

“I Have More Hope Now Than I Ever Had Before” Anne (19:12):
It’s interesting, Gretchen, because people ask me in all of your work with abusers or getting to know thousands of victims who are women who have been abused by men because we only deal with that here at BTR, do you just hate men? Do you see abuse in all men? And, and you know, what’s interesting is the more I’ve learned about abuse and the more I’ve come to recognize healthy behaviors, actually I have more hope now than I ever had before. I have healthy men in my life now that I really appreciate – one of them is my uncle who has helped me so much with so many things. I just talked with him yesterday and we have such a good, like, sweet relationship. And I appreciate my aunt who I don’t talk to her very often, right? Like I don’t call her.

(19:58):
But, um, we have a really good relationship and my relationship with my dad and my brothers, and even just my dentist or colleagues professionally or my best friends husbands who are supportive of me. And when I’m at their home having dinner, we get along really well and they ask me how I’m doing and I feel like I have a good relationship with them. So it’s been really interesting to see how many healthy men there are and how comfortable and peaceful I can feel and how supported I can feel. And it feels good to start there with friendships because then I kind of know more what I’m looking for when it comes to dating, when I choose to date. Can you talk about that? Like, as we separate ourselves from abuse, we’re also able to see the healthy behaviors in the men in our lives?

Do Good Men Exist?!Gretchen (20:46):
Yes. You mentioned the uncle or you know, a good friend’s husband, somebody very, very safe. I mean, I think we need to retrain our minds when we’ve been hurt to realize that real men, good men, safe men want mutual support, integrity, emotional honesty, closeness. They aren’t into seduction and manipulation and love bombing. And of course there are people we can’t trust. There are men we can’t trust. And frankly, let’s be honest, there are women we can’t trust. But in 20 years of having close friendships with safe men, I have been able to weed out the bad ones and I never had any trouble with the good ones. And it’s based on having good boundaries and, and watching them and learning from them. So a man with good boundaries is like this, A man who’s safe, a man who genuinely cares about my wellbeing, not just love bombing me is like this.

(21:50):
I worked in a male dominated industry, so I was surrounded by men all the time. And they proved to me year after year that there were a lot of good men out there. Now I will say that in 20 years I did have two step over the line and I immediately distanced myself from them. But I didn’t say, this is my fault for interacting with men and working with men and confiding in men. This is that person’s problem. It’s not my problem. And I just moved away from them, stepped back. If they ask why, I said, here’s why. Just as we wanna find good, healthy women, uh, especially single moms who are walking with integrity and courage and strength, uh, at the same time we know that they’re juggling fear and doubts and worries. The same thing goes for men. And, um, every good person we have in our life who is respectful and has good boundaries helps us develop res self-respect and good boundaries too.

Anne (22:56):
Yeah. I’m thinking about sex addicts or abusers and how you could just be friendly, right? And say, hi, how are you doing? You know, just as a regular person. And they tend to think that women are flirting with them.

Gretchen (23:12):
Yeah.

Tell-Tale Signs of Healthy MenAnne (23:12):
I’ve noticed that healthy men, you could be like, hi, how are you doing? And they’re like, I’m fine. How are you? You know, they don’t think you’re flirting with them. They think you’re just having a regular conversation. They don’t assume everything is sexual or everything is maybe some something or something’s gonna happen because they’re secure in their relationship that they have with their wife or their situation. And so they’re free to just see you as a person. And I, I wanna tell one story of my best friend’s husband. He’s amazing. And the other day I was talking and I said, yeah, the sex addiction industrial complex sometimes says things like, well, women, you have to be safe enough so that your husbands will tell you about their affair. Right? Or about their porn use, or something like that. And he just started laughing and he was like, what?

(24:01):
What, what are you talking about? Like, of course they’re gonna be angry. Does any man out there think like, oh, she’s gonna get angry, so I’m not gonna tell her like what his reaction was genuine. And just in the moment, like it just was so unfathomable to him that someone would think that, and that’s this type of stuff that we get all the time with abuse or with people trying to enable abuse or it’s like, well, this is the reason that he did it, rather than thinking like, there is no reason. It’s just ridiculous and it has nothing to do with you. The reason he didn’t tell you about his affair was because he was trying to protect himself and keep having the affair wasn’t because he was worried about hurting your feelings. So interacting with healthy men sort of helps you see like, oh, their reaction to this is different than the 10 men that my husband hung out with that were all sex addicts who were telling each other about how hard it was, you know, that their secretary was coming onto them when she wasn’t at all, when she was just sitting there doing her work.

(25:04):
Gretchen, please come on again to talk. And in the meantime, make sure you check out her website. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode, Gretchen. It has been a real pleasure. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Many victims of abuse are reluctant to pursue a life-saving divorce because of harmful myths about single life for women.

Could you be one of those women?

Gretchen Baskerville is on the BTR.ORG podcast breaking down harmful myths and offering powerful words of encouragement. Tune into the free BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Busting Myths About Life-Saving Divorce & Single LifeEspecially in the religious community, women are inundated with toxic myths regarding divorce. Some of those myths include:

• “You’re nothing without a husband.”
• “Women friends are merely place-keepers until marriage.”
• “Marriage is the ‘end all’ and if you seek divorce, you’ve failed.”

It’s easy to see why women feel immense societal pressure to stay married – even when they’re being abused.

Here’s the truth – you can find immense fulfillment in platonic relationships with other women; you are not a failure for seeking safety, and you do not require a husband to have worth as a human being.

Choosing a Life-Saving Divorce Despite Fear

“I thought that divorce was the worst possible thing that could happen to me.”

Gretchen Baskerville, author

Here in the BTR.ORG community, we often hear women express that they were terrified and felt immense feelings of failure for seeking divorce – but decided to take a leap of faith toward safety.

It does take time, but usually these women explain that even though the decision was difficult and the sorrows and stresses of life aren’t suddenly, magically erased, they’re proud of themselves for seeking a life-saving divorce and far happier than they used to be.

But I Don’t Want To Be Single!Some victims quietly express that one of the reasons they hesitate to seek divorce is because they don’t want to be alone. Gretchen and Anne discuss some encouraging truths for women in this situation:

• Platonic relationships with other women, especially fellow victims, can be extremely fulfilling and healing.
• Far and wide, divorced women express that single life without abuse is easier and happier than married life with an abuser.
• It is perfectly possible to rebuild your life on a solid foundation after divorcing an abuser – it may take time, but you CAN do it.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouMaking the decision to divorce is difficult – we understand. Please seek support – attend a BTR.ORG Group Session today.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

(02:44):
I am more than excited to have my friend Gretchen Baskerville back on today’s episode. She is a Christian in the Los Angeles area who’s been doing Christian Divorce Recovery Ministry in churches since 1998. As you can imagine, she’s heard many, many heartbreaking stories of betrayal and abuse. And from her experience, she has found that when Christian women find themselves married to serial cheaters or sexually immoral spouses or physically and emotionally abusive spouses, they tend to try to fix their marriage. They pray, they forgive, they go to counseling, and Gretchen is on a mission to help women know that they don’t have to submit themselves to that type of wickedness, but they can consider life-saving divorce. She is the author of an absolutely awesome book, Life-Saving Divorce. Also, you can find her at lifesavingdivorce.com. Welcome, Gretchen.

Gretchen Baskerville (04:14):
It’s so great to be with you again, Anne.

Anne (04:17):
So we are gonna talk about being single. Lately when people say God hates divorce, or when I hear that statement, I think of you. And then I say, God loves divorce. And I just come back at them with that and say, what are you talking about? God loves divorce because he loves me, and it set me free. Divorce delivered me from wickedness. It delivered me from abuse, and I’m very, very grateful to be divorced and actually really proud of it. And I want women to know that it’s not something that we have to be ashamed of or worried about. And being single kind of has that same connotation that not only are you divorced, maybe, or maybe you never got married in the first place, and then you’re single. So today we’re gonna talk about the myths of being single. So Gretchen, take it away. What’s one of the first myths of being single?

The First Myth About Divorce Gretchen Baskerville (05:08):
I’m gonna back up just a little bit because you just said how happy you were to be divorced, and I truly look back now 25 years later and say, divorce was the hardest decision I ever made, but it was also one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. And because we as Christians, as people of devout faith, we take marriage very, very seriously. We don’t throw away our marriages easily. We don’t really believe in, I’m bored divorces, or I miss the party life divorces. We hang in there and we hang in there oftentimes longer than is good for us and for our children. And so that’s why I wrote the book, The Life Saving Divorce. As a devout person of faith, I am against frivolous divorce, but I am 100% in favor of life saving divorces because it saves parents and children. So let’s jump into those myths.

(06:02):
I think the first myth, especially as a person of faith, at least in my upbringing, was, you know, you’re really nothing without a husband. You don’t really have an identity without a man. And you know, for those of us who are really biblically oriented, I would say that there are plenty of women who are heroines in their own right in the Bible. So for example, Ruth was already a heroin before she met Boaz, um, Deborah, Abigail, Dorcus, look at the midwives in the story of Moses’s birth. I mean, they were amazing. They stood against, uh, the great Pharaoh of Egypt. The other thing I did as I was, you know, coming through this and, and of course the first two years of divorce, I was just, my life was just topsy turvy, right? I just didn’t know which way was up. I was really numb for the first six months, and I started reading single women’s missionary biographies.

Myth: “You’re Nothing Without a Husband” (07:01):
I know that sounds a little bit crazy, but there’s some wonderful ones out there. I’m sure you’ve got some on your, uh, reading list. They were so inspiring to me because here are these women who go to some foreign country and they’re virtually alone. They have very little support, and because they’re not married, they don’t really fit into any society, and yet they do absolutely amazing things. I soaked myself in these kinds of stories. I realized, you know, there are plenty of women who God called, who are called by the spirit to do great things. And we were not called to stay in these marriages to enable sin, to cover up sin, to pretend that sin didn’t exist, uh, what you call wickedness. We weren’t called to bring up our children in a wicked home. My first myth is the whole idea that you’re nothing without a husband. I think it’s just completely false because the Lord uses people wherever they are, and he empowers and strengthens. We weren’t put on this planet to, to cover up sin.

Anne (08:14):
I’ve only been married once, and I did not get married till I was 31, almost 31. People would say things to me like, why are you married? Or other stuff like that. But I remember very vividly right after high school, I was working at a video store and a woman from my church came in and she said, oh, who are you dating? And I said, oh, I’m not dating anybody right now. And I I, I was maybe 18 years old, it was like right after high school. And she said, oh, I’m so sorry you don’t have a life.

Gretchen Baskerville (08:44):
Oh my.

Anne (08:45):
And I remember it so vividly thinking, I’m going to graduate from college. What are you talking about? That I don’t have a life, I have friends, I have interests. Am I literally nothing to you because I don’t have a boyfriend? And that idea that women aren’t anything if they don’t have someone to define them, is crazy, right? Yeah. Women can do amazing things on their own all by themselves. That just kind of went along with that first myth. So let’s look at the second myth.

Myth: Women Friends Are Place Keepers Gretchen Baskerville (09:19):
All right. So , this one’s embarrassing to me, that women friends in your twenties are just place keepers until you find a man. Your soulmate, women friends just really aren’t all that valuable. They’re disposable. Mm. And ooh, I’m embarrassed to tell you that in, in my upbringing, marriage was promoted so much that this is really sort of the direction it went. They didn’t, nobody actually taught this verbally. This was never spoken. This was always unspoken. But while was I wrong, um, so I got divorced in 1996. And in 1998 at my church, I met in one of the, uh, Sunday school classes. A woman who was raising four kids by herself with almost no child support. I had two kids and I was completely in awe of her. It was difficult for them. Uh, they had this old clunker car and a shabby tiny little apartment, but they had love, they had safety, they had acceptance.

(10:29):
And we got to be best friends. And every Saturday we would walk together for an hour out at the beach. We live near the coast in, in Los Angeles area, and she was an introvert and I was an extrovert. So we just made sure that we, you know, each got about 30 minutes to share. And then we prayed for each other at the end of our walk. And together we started a group for other single mothers in our church. And this small group was absolutely fantastic. I have never seen so many strong, courageous women knocking it out of the ballpark every day. We had teachers, we had a swim coach, we had a small business owner, a childcare provider, a paralegal, a homeschool mother, a manicurist, a disabled woman. But we were all proud survivors. And we were our own community. We were like heroines to each other.

“We Have to Put Effort To Keep Our Women Friends” (11:24):
And we shared our hope and our experience with one another and prayed for one another. And sometimes, you know, we helped each other financially. And when you do that week after week for years, you realize that this is hands down the best group you’ve ever been in, whether Bible study or church, small group or adult education, it is absolutely so powerful. There was so much emotional closeness and caring. And women would come to our group from other churches and they’d come to our group and they’d cry for the first three weeks. And then they would sense the Lord’s presence, and they would start to feel that hope and that faith. And there is just something special about the dynamic of women friends. When there’s no men around first, there’s no sexuality to motivate you or to cover up one another’s slides. You know, we, we have to put in effort to keep our women friends.

(12:27):
We have to learn to behave well. We have to learn to take turns paying for coffee. We have to learn to hold up our end of the friendship. And those are such wonderful maturing character traits to learn. And as you can imagine, when you’ve done that for 15 years with an amazing close cadre of women, when you start dating again, and, and in my case, I deliberately chose not to date for 15 years, I started comparing all the men to these close girlfriends. Probably like you’ve experienced most of them couldn’t hold a candle to my girlfriends. I mean, they didn’t have authenticity, they didn’t have integrity. They weren’t as financially responsible as my single mom friends. And so it was pretty easy to identify and ditch the losers because I had the loving, warm community around me. And I think that’s one of the most powerful things. And this is something that anyone can do in their own church award. They can start a group like this. It, it just becomes wonderful. It’s, it’s easiest to start it at the same time. Other groups are going on at the church, so there’s free childcare, but this becomes an amazing place for fellowship.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (13:44):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations, as well as infographics at the back. When you go to our books page and click on any of those books, it just takes you directly to Amazon and you can throw those books in your cart after you have purchased the book. Please remember to circle back around Amazon and write a verified purchase review along with a five star rating that helps isolated women find us.

(14:35):
Back to our interview.

Abusers Try to Undermine Women’s Friendships With Other WomenAnd for those introverts out there that are like me, who might not wanna like start a group, cause that feels, feels kind of overwhelming. just making one friend going for a walk every day or doing something with the friend regularly. And that’s, that’s also a good place to start. It feels like when women find our community, their abusive spouses think like, oh, they’re a bad influence on you. Because they start, they start setting boundaries, they start being more healthy, they start maybe doing more self-care, and then the abuser doesn’t have as much control. And so that feels very uncomfortable to him and he tries to undermine it. And abusive men would also likely try to undermine women’s friendships with other women. But why do you think in general, that was sort of taught before you were even married to an abuser? Do you think it’s still kind of a control thing that like perhaps you should not have external influences other than your spouse?

Were You Taught That Marriage Was The “End All”? Gretchen Baskerville (15:48):
Yeah, I mean, in my church we were definitely taught that your marriage relationship would be the be all to end all. And even though it sounds ridiculous for me to say it out loud right now, that person was to be your full emotional support. They were supposed to be your spiritual support, they were supposed to be everything. And it, if you told a woman today, you know, your sister is supposed to be everything to you, the one person in your life who’s your all in all, you’d go, you’re nuts. At least in my church, the unspoken message is if you’re a godly woman, if you, you know, have done your best to be a radiant virgin bride on your, on your wedding day, that you are going to get this incredible emotionally intimate, connected, uh, spouse, this husband, and you’re gonna have mind-blowing sex. We were really taught this, it’s kind of a form of what I would call prosperity gospel.

“Prosperity Gospel” (16:47):
If you’re good, you’ll get someone good. If you’ve got some secret sin or you’re covering up something, well then you’re gonna get someone bad. But I mean, I don’t know how you could be more of a goodie two shoes than I was as a kid. I mean, I wasn’t perfect, obviously nobody’s perfect, but man, I got in trouble for staying up till midnight reading my Bible. Okay. I was part of youth groups and youth choir and everything, and all my friends were Christians and, and yet I married someone who had serious, serious character issues. But I know you talk about those kinds of things all day long, so we won’t go into that. In my case, it wasn’t so much abuse as it was sexual immorality, covert chronic and, uh, scary and illegal,

Anne (17:37):
Which is by the way, abuse.

Gretchen Baskerville (17:39):
Yes. Yes it is.

Anne (17:41):
Criminal sexual behavior is abuse. I mean, they’re a sex offender. They’re a sex abuser. And, and the, the emotional abuse or or the lying, the, the psychological abuse, lying, gaslighting, all of that is all occurring here at BTR. Like sexual immorality is abuse. That’s what it is. They’re abusing their relationship, they’re abusing the marriage, they’re abusing, you know, your trust.

“Any Kind of Betrayal Is Abuse” Gretchen Baskerville (18:05):
Any kind of betrayal is abuse, emotional abuse. Yeah. And when you’re always wondering what’s going on with that other person because they live a completely separate second hidden secret life. Yep. I mean, you just never know when the other shoe’s gonna drop. I was always worried, you know, will my name be on the front page of the Los Angeles Times? You know, this is pretty awful stuff. So yeah, it’s definitely abusive. I agree with you.

Anne (18:33):
I am so grateful for my girlfriends, girlfriends that I made in my late twenties when I was single and are still my best friends today who have stuck with me. They have been my support and my strength and also friends of mine who are my family. My sister and my mom and other like dear, dear friends that I have that have been an amazing support system to me. I am grateful that I had that time in my twenties that I didn’t get married until later to develop that. And so many women, especially women of faith, are married really early. And so when they find themselves divorced, they haven’t had that experience of maybe making adult women friends. And so instead of being like, I don’t know how to do that. If we have that growth mindset to say, oh, I have the opportunity to do that now is a good way to maybe start approaching that and think that you’re going to find real, like true intimate in emotional intimacy, love in platonic love with your girlfriends. And it’s really, really amazing.

“I Thought That Divorce Was The Worst Possible Thing” Gretchen Baskerville (19:38):
It is. It’s really something. And if you had told me when I went through my divorce, cause I was just completely steeped in that mindset, having been raised a very, in a very devout family, very conservative family, I thought that divorce was like the worst possible thing that could happen to me. You know, that even though I had valid grounds for sure, right. You know, that it somehow reflected and, and told the world that I was lacking in personal maturity or, or spiritual maturity. And, uh, so I was pretty eager straight out of my divorce, you know, I thought, oh my goodness, I hope I remarry fast and I wasn’t as far along as you are, Anne. I, looking back now, I’ll be, I’ll be really vulnerable and honest. If you had told me that I would be single for three years, I might not have filed for divorce.

“I Did Not Always Get the Answers to Prayer I Wanted” (20:33):
If you had told me I’d be single for five years, I would be curled up on the floor in fetal position sucking my thumb. And I ended up being divorced for, uh, a single mom for 20 years. And I’ve gotta tell you, the Lord just completely rebuilt my life. He restored the years the Locust ate. It took me a while to get back to my normal level of happiness. And then I went through a lot of court abuse. There was a lot of post separation abuse, uh, from my ex-husband. 10 years of being dragged into court over and over, uh, with him wanting to have joint custody and me saying, you know, over my dead body. What I found is that as the Lord carried me through each day, every 24 hour period, I was still alive. I did not always get the answers to prayer I wanted, God was often later than I wanted him to be.

(21:29):
And he didn’t gimme the answer I wanted. Looking back, I see that it was what was best for me, but it wasn’t what my church had told me was the ideal situation. I can honestly say at year five I was happier than I had ever been in my life. That’s year five after separation. And by year seven I had completely rebuilt my financial stability. And that felt great. It felt great to be storing away money for retirement and feeling like, you know what, even if I never remarry, there are a lot of women who don’t ever want to remarry. There was a, a survey done a few years back that showed that four and 10 were absolutely sure they did not want to remarry. And I found myself really getting very, very content and really even enjoying my singleness and wondering if I would be able to adjust to sort of the closing in on the constriction of my friendships if I ever remarried.

The Single Life Post-Divorce Anne (22:36):
Yeah, I think that’s really interesting. Also, there could be women and there are women who do want to remarry, but they just don’t have the opportunity. They don’t meet someone that they would wanna marry. You know, it just doesn’t work out. And there’s that too. So assuming that people who are not married aren’t married because they just don’t want to be is also not the right assumption.

Gretchen Baskerville (22:58):
Right, right.

Anne (22:59):
So for me, I was only, I was single till 30, 31. Right. And then my ex was arrested when I was 37 and my youngest was 11 months old. Oh, wow. And now I’m 44, so since 20, that’s 24 years, I’ve only been married for seven of those. Singleness is familiar to me and I really, really enjoy it. I do wanna say though, post divorce, the first, uh, 2, 3, 4 years are really hard. Even though I was happy to be divorced and proud that I was divorced and for surviving what I had been through, things were still really hard. But I agree with you, Gretchen. For me, it was about year 5, 6, 7 that I have started to feel like, oh, this feels good. I love it. Um, and so even though I was happy to be away from the abuse or at least separated from it as much as I could be, there seems to be an arc that it does take some time.

Support the BTR.ORG Podcast(24:03):
So I don’t wanna like misrepresent this in saying like, once you get divorced, everything will be, you know, no, it is, it is hard. But you do have to rebuild your life. And it does take time, but it does come, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. We’re gonna pause the conversation here, and Gretchen will be back with me next week to finish talking about the myths of being single. So stay tuned. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Have you felt confused by misogynistic religious indoctrination like “God Hates Divorce”?

Teachings like these ignore accountability and ultimately discourage women from seeking safety.

Emily is back on the BTR.ORG podcast with Anne. Together, they discuss how they hold on to their own beliefs while seeking safety from abuse. Tune in to the BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Abusive Indoctrination Harms WomenAbusive indoctrination is a serious problem within faith communities of every paradigm. Teachings like:

• “God hates divorce”
• “Divorce ruins families”
• “Women are subservient to men”
• “Women should submit to their husbands”

Condition women to ignore abuse, and abusers are often not held accountable.

Focus On “Deliverance”Victims can choose to focus on the concept of “deliverance” found in many religious texts and teachings.

Anne shares,

I encourage women to pray for are two things. Pray for deliverance and pray for a life of peace. What is my next step? How can I establish peace in my home? What would you like me to do? And he will lead and guide you to whatever that is.

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAt BTR, we know how difficult it can be to separate deeply ingrained religious teachings while still hoping to hold on to dearly held faith traditions. The BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place for you to process difficult emotions and share your experiences. Attend a session today.

Full Transcript:

Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

I have Emily, a member of our community back on today’s episode. So Emily and I shared the same faith, and I wanna do, I don’t know, not necessarily a trigger warning, but an explanation of this episode. There’s some parts that we edited out, um, for privacy’s sake, but Emily and I were having a conversation and she was asking me how I keep my faith.

(03:36):
So I just went ahead and talked about my faith. If you are not interested in that, just you can turn it off when we get to that point or keep listening. Um, the purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all just here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is just sharing my own experience and my own views, and we respect that. Everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, uh, women come from all different religions or different paradigms or no religion. Everyone is welcome here. If you did not listen to last week’s episode, go there. Listen to that first, and then join us here. We start off talking about where she is right now in her situation. So we’ll just jump right in. So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace or do you feel like you’re still sort of being cycled through the abuse?

“It’s So Hard” Emily (04:29):
It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. I have definitely been able to recognize my relationship for what it is I am. I am able to recognize patterns and behaviors that before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were, but it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve, I’ve never been able to get to the point where I can make a concrete decision to stay or to go. And it’s almost like sometimes I almost wish I would find him in another affair so that I could have that reason of, okay, I really can leave. But right now it’s like this in between where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier, like he hasn’t, he’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. And so he still blames me. He still holds me accountable, but it’s so hard. You know, I have kids and I have twins that are 17 and then a 13 year old. It’s been now seven years.

Sometimes I think back of, wow, what if I would’ve been strong enough to just leave? Then how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents than a family. And then I think back and I’m like, wow, what have I, maybe I’ve made a really big mistake staying together and modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship that’s really hard. So it’s, it’s, I’m like in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or to go. It’s, I don’t know.

Does God Want You To Be Abused? Anne (06:05):
It’s hard. It’s really hard. Um, many women have prayed to know, right, do I stay or do I go? And then a lot of women avoid praying about it , because they don’t want an answer. Right? Right. Because either answer is terrible. Yep. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that really God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions, you know? Right. But at the same time, like the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And really what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. So that must not be right.

(06:57):
So I guess God’s telling me to stay married. And with that I wanna say, no, no, no, no, no. If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce, that does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why that is, is because divorce is awful. It is going to feel bad no matter what. I would encourage women and have them consider that. If you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce, consider that that is not God telling you not to do it. That is just the reality. That divorce is awful. It is awful. And it’s hard. Now, after that, after you say, okay, no matter what, it’s gonna feel awful. No matter what’s gonna feel bad, then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea. , I have no idea. .

Emily (07:54):
I don’t either.

“I Want a Peaceful, Happy Life; Please Guide Me & Direct Me Toward That”Anne (07:55):
You know, all of these things that are in your head now that have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize, aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from overtime. So, so it’s, it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do. But I do think that God will lead us and direct us and guide us as we make our way towards safety. And if we say, Hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life, please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just, just as a wholesale overview of it, that bad, bad feeling, you’re gonna feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you, because it just, divorce is terrible.

(08:51):
And also with guys like this, it gets way worse when you try to leave. So you try to leave and they’ll tell everyone how terrible you are. They’ll lie about you that like the, the divorce is gonna go awful. The custody is gonna be bad, the court’s gonna be an another way to abuse you. So it’s just like, if you decide to go that route, it’s very, very difficult. It’s doable, but it’s hard. So those are the, all of the things that abuse victims have against them. It’s not a quick fix. Cause even once the divorce is over, then you have post separation, post divorce abuse that happens with your kids.

Emily (09:30):
I know. I feel like there’s no good way out of it. .

Praying For DeliveranceAnne (09:34):
So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce , but now that you said that as a woman of faith, I believe that God has a path and a way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like. Things I encourage women to pray for are two things. Pray for deliverance and pray to say, uh, I would like a, a life of peace. And I would like to be able to feel the fruits of my own righteousness. I would like to be able to cast out devils in my own home. What is my next step? How can I establish peace in my home? What would you like me to do? And, and he will lead and guide you to whatever that is. And it, I don’t know what it’s gonna look like. I don’t know what it’s gonna be, but those things to me and praying for deliverance seem a little bit less scary. Also, praying for miracles. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life he’s there for us. But it’s, it’s a hard, it’s hard and it’s scary.

Emily (10:32):
Yeah. I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step. Mm-hmm. just one step at a time.

Anne (10:38):
Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife?

Emily (10:42):
No. They ended up getting divorced and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared too.

Anne (10:51):
Yeah. How come?

Emily (10:52):
Just how the relationship was left. But I do think about it that I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things that I assumed and now have such a different view.

Anne (11:06):
That might be an interesting first step. To tell her that you’re sorry and that you didn’t know what you didn’t know, and now you’re in the same boat and you don’t know what to do. .

Emily (11:17):
Yeah, that’s a good idea.

Anne (11:19):
Was she ostracized? And did your brother lie about her?

Making Amends With Other Victims of AbuseEmily (11:24):
Oh yeah. Okay. She was always the, the bad guy so much. And he, he never took responsibility for his actions. And it was his, the whole reason he looked at pornography was her fault. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise. It was because she, because she didn’t wanna have sex with him or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just is what he had to do. Yeah.

Anne (11:53):
I’m so entitled to sex that I have to have it. Mm-hmm. , this is my wife’s job.

Emily (11:58):
Right. And if she won’t do it, I mean, it’s been entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced 10 years now probably. And nothing’s changed.

Anne (12:06):
Did he get remarried?

Emily (12:08):
No, neither of them did.

Anne (12:10):
Your brother’s an abuser.

Emily (12:14):
Yeah. Oh, I’ve got him all around me now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are. Absolutely.

Anne (12:25):
Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy that you’re like, wow, he’s healthy?

Emily (12:31):
Well, sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like are there mentally stable men out there? Gosh, I’m trying to think if I even, I can’t even think of a person that I know that’s –

Anne (12:45):
That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re gonna need help if you choose to get out. If you choose to start making your way that that direction, you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have people in your life that are healthy that can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own.

“The More I’ve Learned About Abuse, The More I’ve Been Able to Recognize Healthy Men” (13:07):
I know a lot of women that are like that, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re like, I don’t know a man who’s not abusive. Mm-hmm. , I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life now that are not abusive. And, um, they’re incredible and they are supportive and they’re, they’re awesome. And the more I’ve learned about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men as well. Now of course, I’m not married to them, so I don’t know for sure , but in terms of my interaction and then also what their wife says about them, just the whole thing seems to lead that they’re healthy. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. But I also think that they’re not common. Mm-hmm. in the state where you and I live in one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, you know, we’d have even more, and the statistics are the eight out of every 10 men in our state is using porn.

Emily (14:04):
Wow.

Anne (14:05):
So then you’re looking at eight out of every 10 men as an abuser, essentially is willing to manipulate, is willing to lie, is willing to, you know, throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation.

Emily (14:16):
Scary statistics.

What Would Emily Tell Her Younger Self? Anne (14:17):
I wanna ask one question and then if you wanna ask me anything, I’ve never done this with anybody before, but we can kind of go there. So if you could go back and talk to your younger self, now that you’ve know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her?

Emily (14:34):
I wish that she could see her worth and, and know that within herself, that she’s a worthy person without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish that I could tell her to recognize red flags and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. And I just, even if I saw them, I didn’t want them to be. So I talked my way out of it, of making it okay. But I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better.

Anne (15:16):
That’s sad. In our faith tradition, we have this, um, what do we call that? It’s like this thing that we stand up in young women’s at church and it says this. So this is just really interesting. I wanna talk about this for a minute. So, and, and probably this happens in all faith traditions, but ours says, I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny as a disciple of Jesus Christ. I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and ministers to others in his holy name. I will stand as a witness of God at all times. I’m getting a little emotional here. Sorry. I will stand as a witness of God at all times and in all things and in all places. As I strive to qualify for exaltation, I cherish the gift of repentance and seek to improve each day with faith. I will strengthen my home and family making, keep sacred covenants and receive the ordinances and blessings of the holy temple.

Anne (16:13):
Divine nature. I’m a beloved daughter. You know, this is more focused now on service than it was when we were growing up. Mm-hmm. , ours was like, I am very valuable. Right? Yeah. This, this one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore, but it doesn’t. So, so we grew up with this like, I am a very valuable daughter of God kind of thing going on. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us?

Understanding The General Lack of Self-Worth Among WomenEmily (16:36):
Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, it becomes just a habit, like a habitual act instead of really pondering what you’re saying. And you can just get up and everyone says it, and then you sit down, but you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying.

Anne (16:58):
I also think it’s how we were treated.

Emily (17:01):
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Anne (17:03):
So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable. Like, they’re not listening to your opinion, they’re not believing you. Um, they’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college or, you know, other, your brother gets to choose a career of any of these 5,000 different careers and you need to pick a teacher because then you would have the summers off for your kids. And you need to be able to cook and sew and clean and do laundry. And your, your duties are relegated to these seven things. Childcare, cleaning, cooking, you know, and he, what does he wanna do? Mm-hmm. , he gets to be an engineer, an astronaut. Like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry. So I don’t know what mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. like nobody ever says like, what do you genuinely want to do with your life?

Emily (17:56):
No.

“Were You Actually Treated Like You Were Valuable?”Anne (17:57):
Like, what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from the, he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? Mm-hmm. . And so it’s like, were you actually treated like you were valuable? And so then if in our hearts and minds we’re thinking, okay, we’re really valued, but we’re only valued if we look like this or if we do this thing, and if we do it really well, and you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies, so maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker, you know, or whatever. I just wonder if that’s part of it. As well as the way that we internalize the culture around us was like, oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you wanna, you’ve gotta be cute and you’ve gotta be in shape and you have to play the harp.

Emily (18:48):
It’s so true. That’s really interesting you bring that up because the week ago at church, we were having a lesson about things of value and they were putting it on to, you know, the temple and how we treat different things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church and I said to my husband, I said, I don’t feel valued. I don’t feel like you have valued me as a wife, as a human. And that’s where, I mean, for me, it was such a big epiphany. It was so big to just think I’ve spent these last 20 years of my life with someone that I feel doesn’t value me.

Anne (19:28):
Doesn’t cherish us.

Emily (19:29):
Right? Yeah. How differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that that really valued me, truly.

Anne (19:38):
Mm-hmm. . And, and I think that’s why we have to learn to value ourselves because nobody’s doing it for us.

Emily (19:43):
Right. Exactly.

“They’re Not Acknowledging This Super Solid Bedrock Foundation of Misogyny” Anne (19:45):
And when we do and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing, everybody around us is like, what? No, no, no, then you’re not valuing your husband or your, your kids or, you know, whatever else. And it’s, yeah. I, I think the heart of this is also just flat out misogyny, which is hard for us to admit it. And I, I, I think that’s the problem with a lot of the pornography addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny.

Emily (20:14):
Absolutely.

Anne (20:15):
That is so firm and so strong and so deep that it’s going through the, the clergy and the therapists and the community. And it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And, and then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate. Oh yeah, whatever lady mm-hmm. . I enjoy that role though now in my congregation. It’s like the witch lady almost . Not really, but you know what I mean? Like, ooh, don’t let your kids get too close to her. I don’t do this often, but are there any like thoughts you have or any questions that you have?

Emily (20:51):
I actually with you, how have you been able to keep your faith and your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this, because I do feel like my religion has really kind of spiritually manipulated me into a kind of feeling like I’m not as much value of just, you know, I need to forgive, move on. And I don’t know, it’s, it’s real, I’ve really struggled with my spirituality through this. Do you, is there things that have helped you?

How Has Anne Maintained Her Religious Beliefs? Anne (21:25):
In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and we also study from the Book of Mormon. And I love both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. So the Bible is a testament of Jesus Christ, both before his birth and after his birth in Jerusalem and in the European continent. Um, and the Book of Mormon is a history of the prophets who prophesy of Christ before his birth and, and also after in the American continent, people in, you know, Guatemala or whatever in the Central America. And so I love studying from both of these books about my savior and having a tangible book that I can study from and pray about and, and consider what God is telling me has really, really helped me. And I just cannot throw either of those books out the window. You know, sometimes I think like, ugh, what am I doing this for?

(22:21):
All these men don’t get it. But like, as I study, I really feel God’s love for me. And the other thing that’s interesting is both of those books are, I think, misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Mm-hmm. , we don’t have a lot of women in those books. They’re not writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do, is I actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask heavenly father what he wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions that I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures, my, my journal that I can keep. And I think if more of us do that, you know, in a hundred years, then maybe we’ll have some scriptures written by women that we do not have now. Because I don’t know, maybe women couldn’t write or, you know, I don’t know why that happened. But women have been historically property right? Throughout time. So even though the, it’s still on that solid, seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny, I do think the Lord’s words come through and I just can’t throw it out the window. The other thing that I love about the scriptures is it says so clearly that God does not like wickedness.

Anne’s Belief in Deliverance(23:34):
Hmm. And it, there’s over and over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon’s stories over and over of deliverance. So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance, right? The ultimate deliverance would be salvation returning to live with God in the afterlife. But I also believe that he has a deliverance for us here in this life. That he wants us to be delivered from evil and that we should make our way out somehow. You know, the Israelites back in the day, they were enslaved by evil by Pharaoh and they prayed and they watched and they hoped for the time that they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, right? They started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of her stuff together.

(24:27):
It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s gonna follow us anyway. You know, but they didn’t, they got up, they packed up all their stuff, they started making their way out and Pharaoh did follow them. And then the, the red seat parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith that that took to walk through these two pillars of water thinking it could fall on you at any second, right? I don’t know if I would’ve been like, this seems like a bad idea. Mm-hmm. , you know, walking through here. But they did it. And I think God is calling women to do that. Now. I genuinely feel like in these last days that God is calling women to separate themselves from evil, to have faith, to pray, to be delivered, to hope, to be delivered and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff, you know, metaphorically speaking and make our way.

Separating Ourselves From Abuse (25:22):
And then when he parts that red sea, we have to, we have to walk through that. And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany. You know, I’m not saying all of this leads to divorce. I’m, I’m not pro divorce per se, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse. So when you look at that and you think God seems to be calling all of us to consider deliverance, to separate ourselves from evil, we also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation, right? A separation of good and evil. The wheat and the tears, that sort of thing. On a few episodes back, I ask people to pray that the tears are separated, that the wicked are separated from the righteous. And I think that that’s happening now.

(26:06):
And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes, to separate ourselves and make sure our home is a place of peace. And it’s confusing cuz at church when they talk about, you know, separate yourself from evil or whatever, they never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world, right? So like these evil people out there and I’m thinking, I’m not really super worried about the quote unquote evil people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know really what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them. The people that are in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We really just need to look in our own six foot radius of us.

Emily (26:49):
Yeah, that’s big.

Anne Believes Her Higher Power Has a Plan For Our Deliverance Anne (26:50):
And I think if we do that, we make our way toward that. We’re bringing to pass the second coming the binding of Satan that’s supposed to happen in the last days. So all of those things really like come together for me and help me feel really, um, at peace with my faith. There are questions that I have, there are serious concerns that I have, but I didn’t have those tangible records of our savior in the form of the Book of Mormon in the Bible that I could study from. But because I have those, I think the Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly, I’m just gonna do my part. And I have questions maybe about how things are going or decisions certain people are making or how people are interpreting these things. But God has also given me the ability to interpret scripture for myself.

(27:40):
And luckily in our faith, and I don’t know if you feel this way, I feel like the leaders at the very, very top of the church, like the prophet and the apostles, I genuinely feel like they understand this. I just don’t know if they know how to, like how do you get 80% of the men in the world, let alone your church to repent if they don’t want to. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course I don’t, why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me keep my faith. Cause I just can’t imagine that God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance if he’s had a plan for oppressed people’s deliverance since the very beginning of time.

“We’re Still Sisters” Emily (28:26):
. Yeah. That’s something to think about. I like that a lot. That’s good, good stuff. That’s helpful.

Anne (28:32):
I have a lot of friends who have left, you know, their faith and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me because I think, I don’t know why I still believe in you don’t, but like, we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church?

Emily (28:49):
Yes, she did. Yeah.

Anne (28:51):
So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her, is to have a really soft place in your heart for that and be like, it makes sense that you would do that a after all the abuse that you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members. Like I totally get it. I’m not there, but I understand, I can see why you would do that, because that’s gonna be a further bridge to, um, reconciliation rather than like, well I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and I have more faith than you after all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it. Or something like the women who have said, Hey, I am done. I am not, not gonna listen to you anymore.

“Husbands Don’t Like Us Finding [BTR.ORG] Because We Find The Truth”(29:42):
The immediate people who are saying like, you shouldn’t get divorced and you’re a bad person and stuff like that. Like, good for you for standing up for yourself, good for you for saying, I don’t, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes frankly, I’m a little bit confused about why I still believe like I do. I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for, for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to a lot of therapists or other people and my views seem very threatening. And some people see me as some kind of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to and after she started listening to this like wackadoodle podcaster, um, our family was ruined.

Emily (30:39):
Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course the husbands don’t like us finding you because we find the truth.

Anne (30:46):
Mm-hmm.

Emily (30:47):
, we understand the abuse for what it is and when we come and confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this, so yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast cause it totally, I know it exposes him for what he is and he doesn’t like that one bit.

“Our Faith Tradition Says We Do Not Tolerate Abuse” Anne (31:06):
So I become this crazy like extremist who’s podcasting from my basement who, you know, believes in aliens. I, I’m not, I don’t believe in a, but I, I mean I like people have that view of it, right? Um, no actually, like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, yeah, of course this is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. And so I think it’s really interesting that it’s just so, so threatening to an abuser for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on.

Emily (31:51):
Yeah. Blows this cover. It’s, they can’t get away with what they used to get away with. And it’s, I think it’s really confusing to them because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore when we can recognize it and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated. It has really changed my relationship. It really has since I’ve started listening to the podcast and just being able to recognize it and being able to feel more self-worth because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I am just the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts and emotions and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to be able to stand up and, and recognize that, yeah, I do have worth and my thoughts. They’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re, the truth is what they are. They’re true.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouAnne (32:44):
Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth and listen to that part. Listen to how much he loves you and he cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a, on a previous episode, and essentially if you are listening to your abuser and you’re submitting yourself to him, and Okay, I’ll have more sex, or Okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions and I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do ever. Yeah. In fact, he wants us to stand for truth and righteousness, like in that young women theme, right? In all times and in all places, no matter if our husband likes it or not, or no matter if our clergy likes it or not, or our therapist likes it or not. Um, no matter if people think we’re the crazy witch lady who hates men or whatever mm-hmm. . The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Emily, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I really appreciate your time.

Emily (34:10):
It’s been really healing just to be able to talk about it and, and express myself. I, I really appreciate it. It’s been really good, really good for me.

Anne (34:20):
If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

View Details

When something just feels off –

When his story doesn’t quite add up –

When he gives you that strange, blank look before answering a simple question –

It’s hard to admit what may be on your mind: “I Think My Husband’s Lying To Me”.

Emily is on the BTR.ORG podcast sharing her own story of seeking safety after learning that her abuser was living a double life, rife with lies and manipulation. Tune in to the BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

The Abuser Puts On A Facade

[The abuser] is super spiritual and we did all the religious things and I just thought that I had married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think that he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued.

Emily, member of the BTR.ORG Community

Many victims struggle to accept that the abuser is manipulating them because of the incredibly believable facade they put on. The abuser may wear a mask that makes him seem:

• Devoutly religious
• Like an honorable leader (many abusers hold public leadership roles)
• Incredibly smart (doctors, attorneys, professors, etc)
• Gentle (others may say things like, “He wouldn’t hurt a fly!”
• Altruistic and woke (some abusers may be very involved in human rights activism, civil rights, or other causes to seem like a good person)
• Grounded and at peace (they may wear this mask by getting involved in new-age practices like yoga, meditation, secular Buddhism, becoming a life coach, etc).

The Abuser Gaslights You To Avoid Getting Caught In His Lies

Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He had told me throughout the our marriage that like I was too mean and he wasn’t attracted to me. So I, I thought, you know, it’s just me.

Emily, member of the BTR.ORG Community

Abusers will keep victims spiraling in every direction so that catching them in their lies is a nearly impossible feat.

They keep victims especially fixated on their own “flaws” so that victims feel that they’re not allowed or worthy to address the abuser’s dishonesty.

If Something Feels Off, Trust YourselfUltimately, you can’t outsmart an abuser – they’ll deny, gaslight, and project until they’re blue in the face.

Even if they do admit that they’re lying, they will never give you the closure and validation that you deserve.

Instead, trust yourself that something is off and instead of seeking definitive proof and a confession, seek safety.

Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process your trauma and work toward safety. Attend a session today.

Full Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Emily and she’s gonna share her story. So welcome, Emily.

Emily (03:22):
Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Anne (03:25):
It’s kind of nerve-wracking sometimes to think about sharing with other people, so I’m really grateful that you were willing. Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse at the time when you began your relationship with him?

Emily (03:39):
No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever even consider it abusive. Just from listening to your podcasts, um, before that, that had never even crossed my mind.

Anne (03:53):
Let’s start with that then. What, what types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want to seek some help?

Learning the Term “Gaslighting” Emily (04:02):
Well, he had an affair. So after that, it was actually about five years after the affair was discovered that things just weren’t really moving forward and I couldn’t really figure out why. And that is the first time where I’d even heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I really started to search more for answers. And I realized the extent of what had happened and how I had been totally emotionally and psychologically and spiritually abused and just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on.

Anne (04:40):
Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and you looked back, did you recognize that it had been happening the whole time?

Emily (04:50):
For sure. I discovered he had been looking at pornography just about a month after we’d been married, and I think that’s when I realized I didn’t marry who I thought I had, but I felt stuck cause actually the next day after I found out he had been looking at pornography, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s what I just thought, there’s nothing I can do. I’m stuck.

Anne (05:14):
What type of a person did you think he was before you married him?

“I Thought I Had Married a Spiritual, Religious, Truthful Person” Emily (05:17):
Well, he’s super spiritual and we did all the religious things and I just thought that I had married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think that he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued.

Anne (05:35):
So how long between you discovering porn a month after you’re married and when you discovered the affair? Was that I’m, I’m guessing that was like 10 years or something?

Emily (05:45):
Yeah. Yeah. 10 years.

Anne (05:46):
See, I’ve become a psychic! Been doing this for so long. So 10 years. And how did you discover the affair?

“I Thought It Was Me” Emily (05:55):
Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He had told me throughout the our marriage that like I was too mean and he wasn’t attracted to me. Um, stuff like that. So I, I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state and after we moved nothing changed and it still just kept falling apart. And then I heard him one time on the phone and he was talking to someone and I just heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he was saying, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship. We just started off wrong. And I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl and he is having an affair because it had crossed my mind and I had brought it up to him before asking him if you had an affair.

(06:51):
I said, my brother and his friend actually said that it sounds like you’re having an affair. And he was just so defensive about it and was just like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And to be now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment. But he was so good at just making me think I was crazy to even consider that. So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, oh my gosh, he really is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him and his face just said it all. It just absolutely said it all. But he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally like a half an hour later he finally answered and said it was a guy from work. I just feel really bad cause I was talking about me and you and how we started off wrong and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married. But so was my first clue. And then later on I found him texting her about a month later.

Anne (07:49):
It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. Right? One that made him didn’t look bad, one that made you look bad.

Emily (07:59):
Absolutely. Yep.

The Look On The Abuser’s Face When He’s Thinking Up a LieAnne (08:01):
Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. So he just kind of stares at you in space, right? For a little bit, kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face?

Emily (08:13):
Yeah, absolutely.

Anne (08:15):
Had you seen that ever in your marriage before?

Emily (08:17):
I guess from time to time. I, I can recognize it now for what it was to me, it’s so obvious now looking back on it. Like of course he’s trying to come up with a story. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he didn’t have anything to hide? But I wanted his story to be true so I would accept it because it was so much easier to think, okay, he’s not having an affair. I, it’s okay, it’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change.

Anne (08:45):
I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid, which I thought was really interesting. So he had been singing a very off color song and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, Hey, that song is not okay. Like you cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid, okay? He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, doesn’t, you know nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, oh, oh that song, that song’s about social distancing. And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story, but that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I just sent him home cause I was like, I’m done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old is still doing that right?

When They’re Working Out How To Manipulate You(09:48):
And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements for a second, right? I need to get my story straight. Like they’re not thinking about you in that moment. They’re not thinking about how they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is, hmm, what is she gonna believe? It takes some energy and I think that’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second because there’s a lot happening inside their head and they’re trying to keep their face pretty still so they don’t give anything away while they’re working it out, while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you when they’re working out how to manipulate you.

Emily (10:21):
Absolutely.

Anne (10:22):
Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I I don’t have a name for it. I should come up with something.

Emily (10:29):
Yeah, yeah. Cause they’re, it’s a definite look.

Anne (10:32):
Maybe in the process of this discussion we can invent a name that we think works. For now we could call it the manipulative stare or the, I’m coming up with my plausible lie to manipulate her stare, you know, I don’t know. But it’s something like that. And a lot of women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it and they don’t know what they’re looking at when they see it. So five years go by after this affair and things are just not getting better and then you go looking for help. How did you find BTR?

How Did Emily Find BTR.ORG?Emily (11:08):
I believe it was just searching and I went to just Apple Podcasts and just searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. And I had been to plenty of counselors and religious counselors, religious leaders, I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of Betrayal Trauma before either.

Anne (11:31):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book. Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

Now back to our interview. After that initial porn incident where you found out about it a month after you were married, did you see any other porn use or was it just like that was it and then he hid it really well after that?

Emily (12:44):
No, he actually, what he would do is he would just let me in on enough of the truth that it would pass. So I always knew that he had a pornography problem or that he would view it, but he would say, I look at it once every three to six months and that’s all, and I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d go talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that. And so I thought, oh, okay. He’s honest with me. And I used to say, you know, if you look at it, tell me, or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it and it would just be enough. But it was really interesting because in our relationship he just would never, well, very rarely initiate sex or he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think like, what is wrong with me? Why doesn’t, you know, everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them, what’s wrong with me? And it come to find out, he was looking at it more than he was saying, he was masturbating once a week, and I had never even, he had never brought that up. So he’s like taking care of his own self and not at all interested in a like emotional relationship with someone else.

The Truth About Being Married to a Porn UserAnne (13:56):
I would say your experience is actually more common when it comes to a porn user. So a lot of women think like, oh, he just wants sex all the time because he is into porn. I would say it’s the, generally speaking, you get one or the other, right? Someone who wants to have sex like more than is healthy. Uh, and then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates, they’re not interested in you as a person, you know, and like they don’t get you gifts for Christmas, you know, that kind of a thing. Whereas it’s just sort of like, who, who am I to you? You know? I remember asking my ex once, um, while we were married, how, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute and then guess what? He said, I mow the lawn. I said, you have to mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not, no, that’s not a thing. So as you know, porn is an issue. Over the years did you go down the pornography addiction recovery route for a while?

Emily (15:03):
Not at first. You know, just, I didn’t think it was a problem. I thought everyone looks at pornography and he just does it sometimes. And I actually, during that time, before I found out about the affair, after I found out about porn use, my sister-in-law left my brother over pornography and I actually got really mad at her and I talked to her and just said, this is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this. And I got really mad and we actually, it ruined our relationship. And now looking back, wow, I have a really different view now, but it was the pornography, we went to like addiction recovery after I found out about the affair.

Anne (15:42):
Is this what the church, like a church program? Did you find that his behaviors got any better or that he used that to groom you?

Using the “Addiction Recovery” Route To Groom The VictimEmily (15:51):

Yeah, he did. He did go to Addiction Recovery group a little bit like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there and then he would say he didn’t need it and it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it helped a little bit. It made a little bit of a difference. Not a lot.

Anne (16:13):
Well, and I would say that was grooming. So where you think it helped a little bit would be that he was able to use the language that he learned there to groom you a little bit. He was able to weaponize those things in order to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t.

Emily (16:29):
Yes, totally.

Anne (16:31):
We find that that grooming process of using therapy, using addiction recovery, using even clergy meetings or anything like that, if they genuinely want to hide their behaviors, they’re gonna use that to groom and they’re just gonna learn the language. Some guys are even using the language of like, mindfulness or yoga or, you know, I’m, I’m so emotionally healthy. Like I think a real red flag on any dating platform is if someone says they’re, they’re very interested in emotional health, it’s cause they’ve had a woman partner who is like, Hey, we need to be healthy. And they’ve been to the therapy and they’ve learned the language and they use it to weaponize. Because if you meet a man who’s like, oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy, she, she wasn’t caring, she wasn’t this, she wasn’t that, then that new partner is going to be like, well I’m caring, I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate. They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, sort of like, I’m not the enemy. Porn is the enemy, right? Yeah. I’m not the enemy. Satan is the enemy, you know, that kind of a thing. And, and I agree, Satan is the enemy and porn is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re, you’re behind enemy lines, you’re dangerous to me.

Abusers Weaponizing Therapy & Religious TermsEmily (17:54):
Yeah. And it’s what it, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using the, like the language, the therapy language because he would, he would use these terms and it would drive me crazy cause I’m like, you sound like this recorded just a record, like you just learned these terms and now you’re gonna come use ’em on me and try ’em. I just felt like, like not a human, like I’m no, I’m a human with emotion. She can’t just use these prerecorded terms with me.

Anne (18:20):
So Emily and I come from the same faith tradition where we believe that before we came to earth, Satan tried to overthrow God in the preexistence. And I think one of the interesting things about this is that in our faith tradition, we believe that Satan really understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments, he understands all of it, he just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, they understand all the clergy stuff, they read the Bible, they know all the scriptures, but it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent and never changes. And I think without the application, without actually like having a change of heart and really being actually converted, of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows. So the scary thing about porn addiction, recovery, the scary thing about therapy, the scary thing about reading your scriptures more or anything like that is if you’re not going to apply them, you just become more and more dangerous.

Emily (19:25):
Absolutely.

Anne (19:27):
So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, um, be understanding, you know, stuff like that. When did you realize that that just was not working?

Couples Therapy Harms Victims of AbuseEmily (19:38):
Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor and that therapist was probably a good marriage counselor for someone like newlyweds or if you’re just kind of having general problems. He had no place being an infidelity kind of counselor. He actually said, okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now. And he said to me, Emily, you can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up when you do. You’re just damaging your future if you bring up the past to your husband. And so he actually told my husband if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and, and like leave me – this is a counselor.

Anne (20:25):
He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse I guess.

Emily (20:31):
This guy is horrible, horrible. And my husband of course, he, he loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past and he is like, no, you’re burning down the cornfield. This is what he said. he said, you have a cornfield and every time you talk about the past you burn it down and then you guys have to start over. So it was really on me and it wasn’t much on my husband at all. It was just kind of like, okay, you made a mistake, let’s move forward. You’re forgiven. And he was from the same faith background we were from and also our religious leader at church head referred this counselor. So my husband was very stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful, this is, uh, very damaging.

“Facing Spiritual Abuse on All Sides” Anne (21:18):
Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being abused by your husband psychologically and emotionally abused sexual coercion as well with your counselor who is a religious counselor with your bishop who is your religious leader. So you’re being abused by these men, right? Who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family as well? Like were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides?

Emily (21:48):
Not necessarily from family, but I do have to say not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has, everyone has brought into the situation forgive, what would Jesus do kind of thing. Friends of mine have maybe considered leaving him, but no family, no spiritual leader. It’s all repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this.

Anne (22:20):
The what would Jesus do? I’m always thinking he says depart from the wicked is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So what would Jesus do? Uh, he would say, get the hints.

Emily (22:32):
Yeah.

Anne (22:33):
So I need to get myself hence from this. Um, interesting. So when you found BTR, is this like a revelation?

You’re Not Crazy and You’re Not AloneEmily (22:42):
I can’t even tell you. Just listening to your podcast and feeling like, first of all, I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There’s other people that have been through this cause it’s such a lonely place to be. There’s not very many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard cause even though it’s not my, it is my story. It’s not only my story, so I can’t talk about it to everyone because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad or the truth about him. So it’s, it’s such a lonely place and it’s like nobody really knows what’s going on cause you can’t talk about it. And then for me, all these therapists, I’m going to make me feel even worse. So just to be able to have someone to like, feel like I could connect with, just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone and wow, I’m really not crazy. That was so, so big.

Anne (23:39):
I’m so happy that you found us. Yeah, me too. Um, we always want women to find us because when you’re in that fog of abuse and you’re being abused from all sides, it is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you do wanna tell people, right, even if you, I, I’m not saying that you should, but let’s just say that you got it in your mind that you were gonna get up in your meeting church from the pulpit and say, everyone I’m being psychologically abused, they would not believe you as the other issue. So the the other thing is, is that you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be a part of a community where you’re immediately believed, right? And not just believed. You don’t even have to explain it.

Support the BTR.ORG Podcast(24:22):
We just get it. It’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time. And then it makes it so much easier over time to see it and help us make decisions about what to do to get to safety. Absolutely. We’re gonna pause the conversation here and I am going to continue talking with Emily next week. So stay tuned for next week’s episode. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

View Details

Many women experience a light bulb moment when they realize that what they’ve been experiencing all along is abuse – and feel that the immediate, appropriate course of action is to tell the abuser.

Leslie is back on the BTR podcast with Anne sharing your next steps as you work toward safety once you’ve determined that you’re experiencing abuse. Listen to the free BTR.ORG podcast and read the full transcript below for more.

Here’s Why You DON’T Tell Your Husband He’s AbusiveWhile you may have the urge, or perhaps were counseled by clergy or a therapist to disclose to your husband that he is abusive – and provide resources that back you up – it’s simply not safe to do so.

Informing the abuser that it’s abuse sets you up to be manipulated and abused more covertly than before:

[When you confront them] all they hear is, I need to deceive better, I need to manipulate better, I need to groom better. And then it puts you in a position to be groomed more.

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

It’s Not Your Job To Change The Abuser – It’s Your Job To Seek Safety Usually we tell the abuser that it’s abuse in order to get them to stop the abusiveness – ultimately we want them to change the behavior so that we don’t have to end the marriage.

But a grown man doesn’t need to be taught that lying, manipulation, gaslighting, yelling at, intimidating, and sexually assaulting his own wife is wrong.

If you are explaining this over and over, or even once, to an adult man, please understand that he is manipulating you.

You cannot change this man – you can only get yourself to a safe proximity from him.

So What Do I DO When I Realize It’s Abuse?Realizing and accepting that it’s abuse is a life-shattering moment of awakening for many women in the BTR.ORG community.

Rather than taking this new realization and supporting evidence (like articles, podcasts, books, etc) to the abuser, Anne advises:

Quietly observe and do not confront. Gather enough evidence for yourself to know that you can prepare all the paperwork. If divorce is where you’re going, prepare all the paperwork.

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

Seek support from the BTR.ORG Group Sessions. We are here for you during this time – we understand the devastation of abuse – and the heartbreak and fear that comes when you realize that’s what it was all along. Don’t embark on the journey toward safety and healing alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dol0pvVUrWQFull Transcript: Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

I’m finishing the conversation with Leslie today. She was on the last two episodes, (What Do Abuse Victims Look Like? and The Truth About Reactive Abuse) so if you have not heard her story yet, go back two episodes. Listen there first and then join us here. We’re gonna get started talking about the postnup agreement that she had her ex sign when he went to rehab for sex addiction. So the postnup goes well, you win by default, which is awesome. He doesn’t get an attorney and that is amazing. That doesn’t always happen. Sometimes they use legal abuse and like drag somebody through legal things for years. So that was a miracle. Good. I’m so happy that happened for you and, but you have had to actually take him to court. Can you talk about why that happened?

Leslie (03:56):
He has neglected to take me off his house, so I’m still financially liable for the mortgage that is on his house. He is dragging that out. I have done everything in the postnuptial that I was supposed to do. Everything was taken out of his name that was supposed to be, I have sold the house that we had together, so his name’s off that I have my own new house. He owes me approximately 30 ish thousand dollars for things that he had still been taken out of my accounts. I had given him the opportunity, gave him the accounting, and he just kept dragging it out. He wouldn’t answer emails for weeks at a time. I didn’t wanna incur any more legal costs. I kept trying to think, okay, this is just gonna resolve, he’s gonna get his stuff together, da da da. Didn’t happen. About a month or so ago, I finally contacted my attorney back.

Leslie’s Ready To Hold the Abuser Accountable(04:54):
I said, okay, he still doesn’t have my name off the house and he still owes me this money. What are we gonna do? And he’s like, okay, are you ready to play by my rules ? And I said, I said yes. And he goes, because if we play by my rules, he goes, he’s not gonna like it. And I go, I’m just done dealing with him. So we go back to court on June 6th, they are actually gonna hold him in contempt of court times two, one for nonpayment of what should have been paid, which he hasn’t paid for a year and a half. And the second is, is they’re gonna make him list his house for sale and he will only have 15 days to get it listed, which is like this house was always a bane of our existence because it was always his, he would never like sell it. So the fact that they’re gonna try to make him sell it is a little disconcerting on my part just because I know this is going to really put him over the edge. But you know when you don’t do what you’re supposed supposed to do in the beginning and you act like an idiot, then this was the consequences.

Going “No Contact” With The Abuser Anne (06:02):
Yeah, because you don’t share kids with him. Have you blocked him on your phone?

Leslie (06:07):
He’s blocked on my phone. He is blocked on social media. I’ve blocked all family. Any friends that were mutual friends that like really weren’t my friends prior to us getting together have all been taken off all my social media.

Anne (06:21):
So you’re prepared. It’s gonna be all out war for him and he’s gonna wanna drag it out forever. And one of the things to think about is just tell your attorney, um, minimize legal costs as much as possible because he’s gonna wanna drag this out for years.

Leslie (06:37):
The nice thing is in the postnuptial agreement, it specifically states that if we have to go back to court for one of us not complying with the postnuptial, that person has to pay all legal costs for both parties.

Anne (06:52):
Hmm. That is awesome. And they’ll have to take that out of the house he sells.

Leslie (06:57):
Yes, yes.

“The Courts Don’t Really Understand It” Anne (06:58):
Ah, that’s great. Well I hope it goes well cause sometime, not sometimes, all the time, most of the time these court things go really haywire. They do. Um, and so you think, oh, I’m all prepared and everything looks good and then it hits and it does not go the way you want. I’m hoping that that happens for you. It seems like you’re really well prepared. But um, just for our listeners out there, I just wanna like give everybody a nice, healthy, sad, horrific warning that no matter how well prepared you are, they are so skilled at manipulation and lying and, and they throw all kinds of crazy things your way and sometimes it just does not go well. And even when you think, okay, I know what the worst case scenario is and I’m okay with the worst case scenario, it’s, it can even be worse than that. They are so tricky in court and the courts don’t really understand it. So I really hope that things go well and it sounds like they will. But I just, for my, my listeners, I wanna do a little warning on that.

“You Are Not Going to Continue to Abuse and Take and Not Have Consequences” Leslie (07:57):
I agree with that because I feel that it’s a toss up either way. The judge can go either way on it. You know, you think you’ve crossed all your T’s and dotted your I’s, but you know, when push comes to shove and he gives his sob story or whatever he decides to do, who knows what’s gonna happen And everybody said, “You should just write off that money just you’re never gonna see it. Just let it go. Move on.” And I’m like, No, he’s taken enough of my life from me. Like, why would I give him the satisfaction of giving him another $30,000? I don’t have to deal with it. My attorney’s dealing with it. It’s kind of more principle to me that, no, you are not going to continue to abuse and take and not have consequences,

Anne (08:45):
Especially because you share that house. If it was just maybe the money by itself, that might be one thing, but getting your name off that house is super important. So I have a theory that successful women have a harder time getting out of abuse and it’s because people don’t perceive of them as a victim. And so it’s harder to get help. What do you think about that?

“[Abuse] Can Happen to Anyone” Leslie (09:06):
I think it’s pretty true. I’ve become a lot more outspoken for survivors of abuse. I’ve joined a lot of organizations, especially with Covid cause I can’t do as much medical relief work around the world because of the Covid restriction. And it actually was my own medical doctor when I was sitting there sobbing to her telling my story to her, she was just so taken aback. She said, you could still do good work. I know you wanna do your medical relief work again. She goes, but you know, the biggest work that you could do is get your story out there. She said, because there are so many people who don’t have the resources that you had or don’t know where to turn or think just because they’re not successful, this is why it happened to them. No, it happens to anyone. Anyone. It can happen to anyone.

(10:04):
And it’s just so devastating to me when you are in the thick of it. It is so hard. And I say this all the time, stay your course, you will get there. It might not seem like it tomorrow. It might not seem like it. And I will tell you even probably six months ago, I probably was not the person that I am today and I would not have been as positive even six months ago as I am today. Just by staying my course and not deviating from my own personal growth and what I needed to do for me, I stopped focusing on us and the marriage and started focusing on me.

“Trauma Mama Husband Drama” Anne (10:52):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which also has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama, is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

“The RIGHT Resources Matter”(11:43):
Back to the interview. In some ways your resources worked against you because you were able to pay for couple therapy, you’re able to pay for CSAT, you’re able to go that direction and that didn’t necessarily get you out. When people say there’s lots of resources available, it’s really important for me to point out the right resources matter. You can waste so much money on pornography addiction recovery, you can waste so much time doing that. Getting the abuse resources is the most important thing and sticking with that course. The other thing I wanna say is part of the reason you’re doing so well right now, and I’m so happy for you, is that you do not share children with this man.

“We Are Forced to Interact Because We Share Kids”(12:31):
So you’re able to get completely away. Right? Even if this court case doesn’t go great and, and you lose 30,000 dollars, that is a, that’s a bummer. But his name will get off the house. So many listeners here, myself included, are forced by the court system to continue to interact with our abuser who is also psychologically and emotionally abusing our children. And this is for years and years. That happened in the end of the Netflix show “Maid” as well. The end was like, oh, finally she could get out. And I think society wants us to think that, I think society is like, if you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you will get out eventually. And the the harsh and awful terror of it is that the court system is actually not helpful. That we are still forced to interact because we share kids.

(13:23):
If “Maid” could have ended completely differently where he didn’t let her go. And I would say that’s the majority of what women are experiencing. So that had a happy ending, but that happy ending is very, very rare. So for those of you that you don’t share children, this could be your story. Right? And I want to like really provide hope for you that like you can move on. It is there, it is waiting for you and you can have a complete and total separation from those injuries. And then for those of you who share children and you’re facing that every day for me, even up until probably a year ago, stories like yours, I was happy for you, but so like triggered and mad for me. Nobody would protect me. And then in fact, the court system that’s supposed to protect victims was actually not the domestic violence shelter and everything.

“Take One Step at a Time, And You Will Make Your Way Towards Safety” (14:14):
They’re like, get out, get out, get out. But you can’t get out. You’re stuck. And so I was just always like continually mad. I have now used a type of strategic communication to be in a better place that isn’t dependent on court. So I just wanna acknowledge all the different aspects of that. If you don’t share kids, Leslie’s story is your model. Make your way out. And if you do share kids, Leslie’s story is also your model. Start making your way out. It’s gonna have a little bit longer ending on that. And you might not ever be able to cut off contact completely, but you can get to safety. And so answer for everyone is just what Leslie said. Take one step at a time and you will make your way towards safety.

Boundaries, Boundaries, BoundariesLeslie (14:58):
And and I do feel for the people who have children and I will say I am so grateful that I did not have children with him because just to think that I would have to deal with this for, you know, however many more years until you and, and, and honestly even once they hit 18, you’re still dealing with them. Cause you still have weddings, you still have, you know, life events that you still will have to deal with them. And I do really, honestly, I can so see where that is such a struggle. But I do believe that there are ways of communication and learning how to respect yourself enough to keep your own boundaries with them. And I think that was my biggest thing is I always lacked boundaries in a lot of areas, you know? And so just the biggest thing was teaching my own self boundaries, boundaries with my own kids, boundaries, with, you know, strangers with people. And I think just learning how to deal with that part is the biggest thing, the biggest takeaway, even if you do have kids, is learning how to deal with that part of it.

What Would Leslie Tell Her Younger Self? Anne (16:10):
It’s a skill we all need to learn. It’s, it’s, this is not a like high school class that they offer. So it’s, yeah, it’s really important. So we talked a little bit about targeting, about being used, about grooming the manufactured relational tether. You learned a lot through this about how you were never in a relationship but that you were targeted. If you could go back in time and talk to yourself before meeting him and teach you some of the things that you never wanted to learn, that you never knew you needed to know, what would you tell yourself?

Leslie (16:46):
I would tell myself to one, respect myself enough to listen to my inner self and my inner gut feelings. I think that is the biggest thing that they target is getting you to start doubting yourself. And I always prided myself on having a wonderful, amazing ability to have that inner gut feeling as many medical professionals do that, that’s how we guide our practice a lot of the time. But that was used against me because once he got into getting me shaken off of my ability to trust my own gut, that is where I feel he was able to worm himself in and keep me off balance. And I guess my biggest advice would be if I could say to myself is trust your gut actions, actions speak louder than words. And I remember saying that very early on in our relationship of actions, your actions are not matching your words. And if I had just kept true to myself in that statement of that his actions were showing me exactly who he was and not the words, I think that that would’ve been a totally different outcome.

Communication DOES NOT WORK With The AbuserAnne (18:18):
Mm-hmm. It’s interesting, we talked about this confronting him, right? And telling him how you feel. So when you recognized that his actions were not consistent with his words, the first thing you wanted to do, our gut reaction, cause we perceive of them as a partner, is to talk to them about our feelings, right? To talk to them about our observations. And unfortunately with abuse, when we do that, it just sets us up to be manipulated more. So as we say, Hey, I’ve noticed your actions don’t sync up with your words, then they are able to talk more and groom more. And being able to be like, okay, well she noticed that, so now I’m gonna try this other tactic, or now I’m going to lie better like a healthy person when they have a conversation like that would be like, oh, they feel bad about the the behavior and they want to change the behavior.

(19:07):
So you could have a healthy conversation in which things are able to be resolved with an abuser. All they hear is, I need to deceive better, I need to manipulate better, I need to groom better. And then it puts you in a position to be groomed more, but you can’t determine that unless you have those conversations. So it’s such a hard way to figure out if someone is abusive or not giving grace to all the victims out there who have tried to talk to their abuser only to be abused more. If you’re in that boat now and you’re listening to this and you know, there’s something, let’s pretend like on this podcast you have heard something and you’re like, this is how he is. Oh my word, like an aha light bulb has gone off in your head. I would really, really encourage you. Do not go to your abuser and tell him about it. Do not go to him and say, oh, you have to listen to this podcast. I’m gonna give you this podcast episode and you need to listen and you’ll see what’s going on. All right. Please do not do that. Yes, please have this information and start quietly making your way to safety.

Please Don’t Confront The Abuser Leslie (20:17):
I I can’t tell you how many times throughout the years that I would confront him, like immediately on something and I, afterwards I would say to myself, why didn’t you just stay quiet? Why didn’t you just continue to gather your quote unquote evidence, you know, and continue to realize what was going on. But as soon as I would find something or something would happen, it would immediately come out of my mouth. And that it, I think is the biggest thing. What you just said is just don’t confront them like they’re using all of your words against you. And that is the hardest thing to do for that reason.

Anne (21:05):
BTR Group Sessions are really useful because you need to be able to share that, right? It’s, it’s inside of you and it is going to come out. BTR group sessions are the perfect place, or, or individual sessions with our BTR coaches are the perfect place. You do need to process it, but it is not safe to process that with your abuser. Also, if you wanna gather all the evidence, that’s fine, but there is not going to be a point where you hand him a file folder full of evidence and you say, look, you’re abusive. These are all the ways and that in which he is not going to weaponize that. So if you got an either mental or actual folder full of stuff that is evidence for you, good job – that is for you alone and perhaps for your attorney, but it is not for him.

“Quietly Observe & Do Not Confront” (21:53):
It doesn’t matter if it’s church, it doesn’t matter if it’s scriptures, it doesn’t matter if it’s therapeutic jargon. It doesn’t matter what it is. They’re gonna use everything and anything to weaponize it against you to further the confusion and the chaos. So if you’ve been listening to these episodes, and that’s the one thing you take away, at least from my point of view, Leslie had “trust your gut.” That was her takeaway. My takeaway is quietly observe and do not confront and gather enough evidence for yourself to know that you can prepare all the paperwork. If divorce is where you’re going, prepare all the paperwork. And then right before he’s served, let him know maybe or something, you know, some kind of quiet plan where everything is in motion, everything has been thought out because he’s gonna do everything he can to keep control. He’s gonna do everything he can to stop you from escaping. It’s the opposite of a partnership. And that is where they keep us trapped, is they would like us to think it’s a partnership. Because in a partnership that’s what you would do. You would try to resolve it, you would try to do that. So something to think about. And um, I can see it really clearly now, but when I was in it, it was just impossible. It was,

Determining Whether or Not Someone is SafeLeslie (23:06):
It was so hard. It was so hard. And I empathize because I feel that everybody has their own journey and I feel that everybody has that strength and we just need to find the way to reach within ourselves to get that strength and hopefully move on to where we need to move on. And it’s all a different journey for everybody.

Anne (23:27):
And I don’t think there’s any way of circumventing finding out, right? Because a new relationship where you don’t know what the person’s like, you’re going to confront them. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s how to find out. So, you know, I have this other concern where women will just kind of shut themselves off in the world and not tell people what their, their feelings are and not tell people what they’re thinking and then they won’t be connected, right? So it’s this catch 22 where in order to determine if someone’s abusive, you have to give a little bit . And then also to determine if someone is safe, you have to do that. But it hopefully shouldn’t take too long in theory. But who knows how long it takes In reality, many of us have known someone for years and thought that they were safe only to realize that they had been using things against us that whole time. And so giving grace for people, for, for not, for not knowing what they didn’t know. And also when someone’s actively trying to manufacture a relational tether, discovering it is really, really hard. So our like, love and our hugs go out to you and know that we’ve been there and that we’re with you.

BTR.ORG Is Here For You Leslie (24:32):
Yeah. Thank you. And I so appreciate everything that BTR does to try to help women in these situations because it does seem so hopeless. But I just really wanna encourage everyone that one day there is a light there is just keep on looking for it.

Anne (24:52):
Thank you so much, Leslie. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Have you done something that you’re ashamed of or embarrassed about in response to your husband’s abuse?

You may have heard the term “Reactive Abuse” used to identify your behavior in association to how you respond to your husband’s abusiveness – but here’s the thing: at BTR, we know that you are not the abuser. Your response to your husband’s abuse is not co-abuse. It’s protective action.

Leslie is back on the BTR.ORG podcast, taking a deep dive with Anne into the truth about reactive abuse. Read the full transcript below and listen to the BTR.ORG podcast for more.

“Reactive Abuse” Is the Abuser’s Goal

I do not want victims labeled as also abusers in trying to defend themselves from abuse. That’s what the abuser wants. He wants to see it as sort of like, well, we both have problems and we’re both unhealthy, when really it needs to be viewed as: you’ve got an abuser and then you have a victim who’s trying to survive.

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

The whole belief behind “Reactive Abuse” takes accountability away from the abuser – “I (the abuser) may have issues – but so does she, so I’m not fully to blame.”

As we know, abusers will do just about anything to avoid accountability – including pushing and pushing the victim until she bursts and acts in a way that is against her normal character. Then he’ll use that to claim that she is abusive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OZhEA8jDMIt’s Not “Reactive Abuse” – It’s Self-DefenseImagine a bully on a playground relentlessly teasing a younger child. The younger child tries to talk it out, enlist teachers for help, hide, and eventually snaps. The younger child fights back, yells, and calls names. And then the younger child is the one punished because the bully is extremely talented at hiding his cruelty.

At BTR.ORG, we know that the protective action that you have taken in emotional moments when you just can’t take anymore – is self-defense against relentless psychological abuse.

At BTR we just see that as trying to defend yourself, right? That’s it. You’re not abusing them reactively or anything like that. You’re literally being hit in the head and you are trying to defend yourself.

Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG

How Do I Stop Acting Outside of My Value System?Many women in the BTR.ORG community ask: I understand that what I’m doing is defending myself, but I’m tired of feeling ashamed of my behavior. How can I stop acting this way?

The truth is that as long as you are in close proximity to an abuser, you will probably find yourself taking protective action from time to time. Your value system may be compromised as you find yourself in situations where you simply can’t take anymore.

The only way to live within your personal value system is to set clear boundaries and live by them – separating yourself from the harm that causes you to react in ways that you do not want to react.

BTR.ORG is Here For YouAt BTR.ORG, we know the utter hopelessness that can accompany psychological abuse. You deserve peace. Access our Group Sessions today. We love you. We believe you.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne.

(02:44):
Leslie, a member of our community is joining me again today. I spoke with her last week, so if you didn’t listen to that episode, listen to that first and then join us here. We’re just gonna jump right in. I know this is painful to talk about. You talked about like being over many of your triggers, but let’s talk about him targeting you, knowing that you were successful, knowing that you would be a provider, and essentially just grooming you in order to be able to use you. Can you talk about not knowing that that was happening and perhaps how you’re processing that?

Leslie (03:52):
That has been one of my biggest challenges because being successful, being a helper, a doer, I did a lot of medical relief work pre-Covid and he ended up kind of piggybacking or riding my coattails on a lot of my trips. I would go on these trips and I maybe would have five photos the whole time I was there because I’m there to work, you know, I’m there to help, I’m there doing medical relief work. He would have thousands of photos all over social media about what a wonderful thing he was doing and him and him and him and him. And I remember early on in our relationship saying to him, what are your dreams? What are your aspirations? What are your goals? And I accomplished two more degrees when I was with him. I always would say, you know, don’t you have a dream?

“Don’t You Have An Aspiration?” (04:49):
Don’t you have an aspiration? What do you wanna do? I said, You can’t always ride on my coattails. I have my own dreams, my own aspirations of what I wanna do with my life. You should have your own and then we should have together goals. And that was a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around that somebody would not have goals or not have the same drive and ambition that I had. So looking back and seeing how much he groomed and took from me. My brother said this a few months ago and I know he didn’t mean to say it and I’ve, I’ve learned to not take things as personally when people say things because people sometimes just don’t know what to say. They don’t mean to say things the way they were, they come out. But um, they were friends and I think they’re loosely still friendly.

(05:48):
We kind of don’t talk about it. And they used to go snowmobiling together and my brother went up on a, on a yearly trip and all the guys I guess asked where my ex was and he said, well, he’s not a kept man anymore. He said, my sister got smart to his ways and he is not a kept man anymore. Which kind of stunned a little bit to me because I was like, that is exactly what he was. He had his cake and he could eat it too, but who wouldn’t want that? He had the really nice house on the lake, he had all the toys, he got to travel the world and he still got to screw around on the side . So you know, who wouldn’t want a life like that?

“He Didn’t Want to be Your Partner”Anne (06:32):
So what he wasn’t looking for, which is so painful to recognize in hindsight, was a true partnership. All of his behaviors were intent on grooming you to think that in order to be able to use you for finances, for travel, for prestige, like he’s the husband of this like really great, amazing, successful woman, but he didn’t want to be your partner.

Leslie (07:00):
100%. And I think that was a really hard pill for me to swallow when I finally kind of realized that, that this was not a partnership in any form whatsoever.

Anne (07:12):
And when you started going to therapy, like right at the very beginning before you were even married, did the therapist not tip you off to this or anything?

Leslie (07:20):
I think she did. And then when we had been married for a year, we moved to the west side of the state of Michigan away from his family because honestly if we didn’t, we probably would’ve never stayed married as long as we did. When we moved to the west side, I had started seeing a new therapist and she is amazing and she called me right out on it almost immediately, you know, and she’s like, you do realize like he is a narcissist, that he’s using you, that this is abuse. I would always have excuses. And she was very blunt and she’d be like, no, I’m telling you. And then when I stopped seeing her, cause we kind of went down the whole sexual addiction road. So then I got my own CSAT. When I finally got out of that, I ended up going back to my original one and I had a final session with my CSAT and she said, you know, why are you stopping seeing me? She goes, I just am wondering. I said, because the reason that I’m seeing you no longer exists. I said, I don’t need to see you anymore because this isn’t a CSAT matter.

Abuse Is Not A “CSAT Matter” Anne (08:32):
Yeah. The interesting thing was it was never a CSAT matter.

Leslie (08:35):
No, you’re right.

Anne (08:36):
And the unfortunate thing is the CSAT didn’t tell you that. Right? Because they do not see it as abuse and I think that they’re clinically negligent.

Leslie (08:47):
We were recommended to a counselor who is a CS, a counselor who only sees married couples, you know, for couple therapy. So he would have his, I’d have mine and then we were gonna see this couple one, we went to him the first time and at the end of it he looked at us and he goes, I don’t think I can help you guys. And I was so blown away. I go, what do you mean? I said, he just spent all this money on this program, you know, he’s quote unquote checking the boxes, da da da. He goes, no, he is not. He goes, I see all the things he’s not doing and you want me to tell you to trust him when he is not trustworthy. He goes, I can’t do that and I will not take your money.

“What The Heck Are You Doing?”(09:36):
I have the utmost respect for him because the fact that he saw, I mean he could’ve just kept taking our money and kept on saying, oh yeah, I can fix you guys, this is fine. He did say, I wanna have one individual session with each of you and then I’ll make my final decision. And even in my first session with him, he was like, what the heck are you doing? He’s like, really? You know, it it, it’s funny. Lake Michigan is known for being very, can be very turbulent. And he goes, you know, they put those red flags out in the middle of the lake when they tell you not to go swimming. You saw all those red flags and you still went swimming .

Anne (10:19):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

Back to the interview. Well, and it’s not because you’re stupid, it’s because you didn’t know how to process the red flag. So as you saw the red flag to you, it said, okay, he’s got childhood trauma, he needs therapy.

Leslie (11:29):
Exactly.

Processing The Red Flags We SeeAnne (11:30):
It didn’t say “Red Flag: Abuser,” you saw porn on his phone. Red flag, maybe he’s a sex addict. It didn’t say red flag abuser. That’s the other issue is that women might be seeing the red flags fine, but they don’t know how to process it or define it and they’re trying to be good nice people. We know people aren’t perfect. We know, um, that we can’t expect people to be perfect. I don’t think we’re missing the red flags. I just think we’re processing them incorrectly. And most addiction or just regular average therapy would say we’re on communication. Connect with them. You know, there’s, there’s so much misinformation in an abuse scenario, which at BTR, we see porn use as abusive. So in an abuse scenario they should never be doing couple therapy ever, ever, ever, ever. So I think like in my opinion, CSATs who do couple therapy are clinically negligent.

Anne (12:30):
Because you’ve got an abuser and you should not be doing ever, ever couple therapy with an abuser. So it’s like, uh, an oxymoron sort of, but they don’t see it that way because they don’t see it as abuse. So it sounds like you had a few therapists that were awesome. So, so let’s actually focus on that for just a minute. Your original therapist that told you, Hey, this is abuse, and then you went to a CSAT. Talk about what happened, how did he use that manufactured relational tether at that point? Maybe you went home and said, Hey, she said you were abusive or something, or maybe you didn’t, but how did he reel you back in in order to go down the sex addiction recovery route after she kind of pointed out the abuse? Like talk about your thought process or how he manipulated you after that.

The “Gottman Marital” Models & Research HARM Abuse VictimsLeslie (13:19):
You probably are familiar with the Gottman. You know, the whole Gottman thing in regards to marital therapy. So our initial therapist would use Gottman stuff with us.

Anne (13:30):
When we talk about Gottman, this is classic couple therapy stuff that does not account for abuse.

Leslie (13:36):
Exactly, exactly. He would use the tools that he, we would get in therapy as weapons against me and he would say, but this is what the counselor said and you are not doing this and you’re not doing that. I’m trying to take a break. But it would always be they get in your face that whole reactive abuse.

Anne (14:02):
So we also don’t use the word reactive abuse here at BTR. The reason I wanna pause there, people have said this, they say something and then you react in a way that is maybe you yell or I don’t know. Right.

Leslie (14:14):
Whatever. Right. Uncharacteristic.

“Reactive Abuse” Is a MYTHAnne (14:16):
Yes. And at BTR we just see that as trying to defend yourself, right? That’s it. You’re not abusing them reactively or anything like that. You’re literally being hit in the head and you are trying to defend yourself. And that’s it. Because I do not want victims labeled as also abusers in trying to defend themselves from abuse. That’s what the abuser wants. He wants to see it as sort of like, well, we both have problems and we’re both unhealthy, when really it needs to be viewed as you’ve got an abuser and then you have a victim who’s trying to survive.

Leslie (14:49):
And that’s exactly what I was trying to do do. And he would use all of those therapy things as weapons back against me. I thought I was going crazy so many times. Do you feel like you are spinning in circles? You’re hopeless, you get to a point where you just don’t know where to turn, you don’t know what to do anymore.

Anne (15:12):
So my guess is he’s escalating at this point because he is losing control. So when, when he’s in treatment, he knows that you’ve got the time and the space to sort of clear out the fog and they can’t manipulate you when they’re not in constant contact with you. Right. So my guess is at this point he’s kind of freaking out. He’s not, he’s not into the treatment at all, but he’s, he’s trying to act like he is to groom you, but realizing you have space. So at this point where you have space, you’re finally able to kind of like get your wits about you because so many women are trying to sort it out while still literally being daily manipulated and lied to and they’re still really deep in the fog. So talk about how that space helped the fog clear a little bit and helped you see clearly.

Physical Space From The Abuser Helps Victims See More ClearlyLeslie (15:59):
The space was key. It probably took me a good six weeks before I finally started to see things as they were, and the reactions that he would have when we would have interactions. We had been separated for three months and we weren’t really doing any couple of counseling. He ended up getting fired from work for sexual inappropriateness and, but he did get his job back. But right then is when he was going to go to away to treatment and when the day after he left for treatment, I had come home that night, the following night, and all three of my kids were at my house and my kids are grown, they’re adults. And I thought, okay, what is going on? Like this was not a planned family saying, my daughter lives three hours away. Like why is she here? And so when I walked in I said, what is going on? And apparently one of my children had found out that he had been fired for sexual inappropriate things and had found that he had been stalking younger women. I had already spoke with an attorney prior, but it was the following day that I ended up going through and filing while he was away at treatment.

Confronting the Abuser With PROOF Just Leads to More AbuseAnne (17:29):
One of the things that I recommend that victims don’t do, which is crazy hard to do, I, I find that, that all of us sort of needed to do this, which I wish there was some way to circumvent it, but I don’t, I’m not sure if there is, is when you find out about the abuse or some of the behaviors, our, our natural reaction is to tell the abuser this, right? Right. To say, Hey, I just found this out – what happened? Or hey, I just found porn on your phone. And I wish that instead of talking to the abuser and trying to like help him see the situation or anything like that, that they would just start taking steps back and start getting to safety. Because every time we confront the abuser or try to like help him understand the situation, we just get more abused. Similarly, you were more abused through all the therapy because he started weaponizing all the therapy language. Once this happened and you contacted a lawyer, did you try to talk to him about what had happened or anything after that? And did you have that experience where in trying to say, Hey look, I’m gonna get divorced because you did that set you up for more abuse?

Leslie (18:36):
It did in a certain aspect, but we were not living together at the time. So I still could keep that distance. I will say before he left for treatment, I had had enough wits about me that I had, I had contacted an attorney prior and had a postnuptial agreement drawn up that I made him sign that if he wanted to stay married or to save the marriage, that he needed to sign it and he did sign it. And that was my only saving grace because it basically just said, you not, are not entitled to, you know, you leave with what you came with. I leave with what I came with. You’re not entitled to any spousal support, X, Y, and Z. And that was the only thing I can say that I was able to have my wits about me that I was able to walk away and not get totally, for lack of better words, screwed over in the end.

Anne (19:35):
We’re gonna pause the conversation here. Please join us again next week where Leslie and I finish up our conversation. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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Too often, we expect abuse victims to look a certain way:

Downtrodden, economically-dependent on their husbands, and submissive.

The truth?

Abusers don’t discriminate. So what do abuse victims look like?

Take a look out the window: women of all shapes, sizes, religions, ethnicities, and levels of education can be victims of abuse. There is no one abuse victim prototype.

Leslie, a successful doctor with multiple degrees, is a victim of her ex-husband’s horrific abuse – and she’s on the podcast sharing her story. Read the full transcript below and listen to the free BTR.ORG podcast for more.

Financially Successful Women Can Be Abuse Victims

I’m strong and independent; I run two hospitals, I’ve got six degrees. I’m not being abused.

Leslie, Member of the BTR.ORG Community

Financially independent women may have difficulty accepting that they are being abused. Because they are well-educated and respected in the workplace, the discrepancy with the way their abusive husband treats them at home may cause them to question reality and create a disconnect in their ability to identify as a victim.

Financial Abuse is Real For Financially Successful WomenInterestingly, financial abuse is a very sad reality for women who are breadwinners in their families. This form of financial abuse may occur when:

• The abuser refuses to work and/or contribute to family expenses.
• The abuser uses the victim’s earnings to fund extravagant expenses and/or abusive expenses (dating apps, pornography, drugs, alcohol, etc).
• The abuser takes the victim’s paychecks and diverts them to his account.
• The abuser demands a portion of the victim’s paycheck and refuses to account for where the money goes.
• The abuser attempts to sabotage the victim’s career.
• The abuser promises to earn an income but either cannot hold down a job or doesn’t try to secure a job.
• The abuser forces the victim to be the breadwinner then makes her feel guilty for doing so.
• The abuser places an expectation that all expenses are the responsibility of the victim.
• The abuser is constantly resetting the time horizon as to when the financially playing field will be leveled.
• The abuser refuses to contribute to daily household tasks while the victim is working to support the family.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w-VKY9DO58“But I Thought I Was Smart”Many victims berate themselves for “allowing” themselves to be abused.

They say things like:

• “But I thought I was smart!”
• “How could I be so stupid?!”
• “I don’t look like an abuse victim.”
• “I don’t deserve resources for abuse victims – I should be able to get myself out of this.”
• “I was stupid enough to get into this, I need to get myself out of this.”

Victims who have the capacity to earn a living can be extremely hard on themselves.

If you have experienced financial success, you are just as valid as any other victim of abuse – you deserve safety. You are entitled to every resource available to victims.

BTR.ORG Is Here For YouIn BTR.ORG Group Sessions, we love, believe, and accept you – no matter what.

Join today and find the community that will support you on your journey to healing.

Full Transcript:Anne (00:00):
Welcome to BTR.ORG. This is Anne. I have a member of our community on today’s episode. Her name is Leslie. Leslie is a successful doctor who was caught in the throes of a horrendously abusive relationship. All of our listeners get that. One of the purposes of having her on the podcast today is to talk about how abuse does not discriminate and how difficult it is for maybe successful or well-spoken. And all of you are like that, right? All of the listeners are like that. I’m like that. We maybe didn’t recognize it cause we didn’t identify as victims, but also no one else would identify as as a victim. And so we really wanna dig into that today. So welcome, Leslie.

Leslie (03:53):
Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I greatly appreciate it. I hope that my story is able to help others. There were many dark times that I never thought I would get to the other side, but here I am. I am not only surviving, I am thriving like you.

“I Sound So Much Different Now Than I Sounded When I Started”Anne (04:07):
Now that I’m really thriving, the podcast sounds so much different than it did when I started. So if those of you who are listening, if it’s a little bit difficult or you’re like, don’t talk to me about the light at the end of the tunnel, I’m never gonna feel good. My life is over. Uh, Leslie and I have been there. Yeah, and if you want to hear what I sounded like at that stage, please start listening at the beginning of the podcast chronologically. So go back to the first episode and listen from the first part till now, and you’ll actually hear this very real-time recovery over the past six or seven years, which is a fascinating, uh, study in abuse recovery because I sound so much different now than I sounded when I started. And I’m sure that you have that same experience, Leslie, of, of like life being wonderful now. But when we say that, I just wanna acknowledge that many of our listeners when we say that will just be like, ugh, I don’t want to hear that. That’s not possible for me.

Leslie (05:05):
I agree. I agree and I feel that, you know, there were so many groups that I had initially joined for support and everything and you know the stories that were being told and you know, you look at them, they’re all so similar but different in their own ways. And then you do see the people who have started to work on themselves and change things around. And you do believe that that could never be you again. I lost myself so much within that whole abusive relationship that to think that I could ever climb out of that, it was hard to think that I could do that.

Leslie’s Abuse Story Anne (05:43):
I agree. I I’ve been there before. So Leslie, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Tell me about the beginning of the abuse. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first?

Leslie (05:55):
Looking back, yes, I probably did. He was my um, second husband. My first husband was my high school sweetheart. Unfortunately we lost him to mental health issues back in 2015. So I was at a very vulnerable time when I had met my second husband. And I think he knew that and I think he used that to his advantage. I would’ve never dated him. He was a coworker that I had worked with a few years prior to that that you know, just kind of an acquaintance and we connected on Facebook and I would’ve never dated him like cause that wasn’t the spot that I was in in my life. But of course, you know, he came in on his white horse and shining armor and all that stuff. And when I look back now, can I see every single red flag? Yes, yes. I most definitely can. However, in the throws of it, I used every excuse in the book of why those red flags were not red flags.

When We Make Excuses For The AbuserAnne (06:58):
So at the time you were making excuses, but were you also giving what you thought perhaps were valid reasons, like maybe had a traumatic childhood or exactly, maybe this is just new and were working on our communication skills. What types of reasons did you put around it or excuses did you use only because you didn’t know it was abuse, only because you were not educated in abuse? My guess is back then had you been educated, you would’ve known what you were looking at. So it’s not like you were like dumb or anything like that. You just did not know what you didn’t know.

Leslie (07:31):
Exactly 110% and it actually took a long time and we’ll probably get to that point where I’ll explain when the light finally came on and somebody said to me, you do realize this is domestic violence. Correct? But when we first started out, he was six years younger than I was, he was 40, had never been married. I had been married for 27 years. Three kids, fairy tale marriage, you know. So when we kind of started talking, I kind of saw him as a person who was totally enmeshed in his family. His family like had swallowed his life. I obviously being a doctor, it’s my job to fix things, you know, and I see broken things and I try to help them fix. And so I would say to him, no, this is not okay. You know, your family treating you this way is not okay.

“There Were So Many, Many Things That I Could Rationalize Away”(08:28):
And that was a huge part of the red flags that I didn’t see in the beginning was the whole enmeshment, the traumatic childhood that he had. He had a sibling that was the bipolar sibling who, you know, the whole family always focused around. He was the youngest in the family, so he kind of got forgot along the way a lot at the time. And so there were so many, many things that I could rationalize away. And of course, you know, it was always, he hadn’t been any stable relationships because he had never met anyone like me. That was one of the wonderful lines that he always used, you know, and how everybody always cheated on him. I just hooked on to all that hook line and sinker and could see all the trauma and enmesh and everything that was going on within the family dynamic. So I didn’t realize until much laborer, you know, that trauma bond, I’m sure everybody in this group has either watched or knows about “Maid”. And I will tell you, it took me a long time to get through that series.

Anne (09:37):
Maid is a series on Netflix. I highly recommend it. It is triggery, especially depending on where you are in your healing process. But there are a lot of super important principles that they bring up and they cover all of the basics.

Leslie (09:54):
They do. One of my friends recommended it to me and she said, I probably shouldn’t have recommended it so soon. I was still really fresh and it took me a long time to watch it. But all those red flags that I didn’t see and I continued with the relationship, we were actually in therapy before we ever got married. My 18 year old daughter. I mean there was one point where she was just like, mom, what are you doing? You know, I mean I just couldn’t see it. And so it was just one of those things where it became, you know, years of being pushed down. And then I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2019.

“Everyone In The World Has Some Kind of Childhood Trauma”Anne (10:48):
Can we back up real quick when we’re talking about like, you’re seeing enmeshment, right? You’re seeing Oh yeah. These things. I wanna point out that healthy people can come from enmeshed families, right? Yeah. And so you might meet them and they might say, Hey, I love my family, they’re pretty cool, but I do have to set some boundaries because my mom’s a little whatever, but she’s wonderful and I love her and these are the boundaries I set and it works. Okay. Something like that is maybe what a healthy person would say when you meet someone if they lead with, these are my wounds and so I need help rather than these are my wounds and so these are the boundaries I’ve created, this is how I navigate this. Um, I think that’s definitely a red flag because all of us, everyone, everyone in the world has some kind of childhood trauma.

(11:44):
They all have shame, they all have everything. Right? Exactly. And healthy people are like, I felt shame and so I went for a run or I felt shame so I called my friend or I felt enmeshed. So I, I just want to point out that like that is never a reason. If that’s you, if, if you’re listening to this and you’re saying, well my husband, he comes from this family that you know, blah blah blah. And so I’m working with him on this, I want you to think about all of the people who also come from a family like that and they’re not like your husband.

Leslie (12:17):
Exactly.

“I Know Someone Else Who Went Through That and They Don’t Act Like You Do”Anne (12:17):
I think the answer should be to look at them sort of with a dead pan face and say, so I know someone else who went through that and they don’t act like you do.

Leslie (12:26):
Right? Right, exactly.

Anne (12:28):
It feels very cold and not compassionate. But the truth is healthy people are able to use their experience to improve and to become more and more healthy over time. Yes. And that’s not what we’re witnessing with abusers.

Leslie (12:45):
Exactly. And, and I did get him into therapy probably nine months into our relationship because he had never been in therapy in his whole entire life and he used those to check the boxes. And it wasn’t until we got into a couple’s therapist who started calling him out on a lot of things, that the relationship became even more rocky, more abusive. He was more emotionally abusive, getting in your face. The one part I do love in “Maid,” the series is when she says, but he’s never hit me. And that to me, when I listen to that, that hit me to my core because I said the same thing. Well, he’s never hit me. It’s not abuse, he’s never hit me. You know, I’m a strong independent, I run two hospitals, I’ve got six degrees, I’m not being abused, you know? And so the mother-enmeshment, I mean I was the one who was researching everything. I was the one who was always finding, trying to find answers. You know, first time I caught him with porn was probably the first year we were together. He had probably over 50,000 pictures on his phone of naked women of all ages, which ended up escalating into many other areas of, you know, finding him on dating websites and you name it.

TW: Child Sex Abuse MaterialAnne (14:16):
So when you say of various ages, um, here at BTR we don’t use the term child pornography. We use the term Child Sex Abuse Material cause that’s what it is. Right. So did you also find that on his phone?

Leslie (14:28):
They were very young looking. Yes. And then actually that was his MO was younger women and he actually later on in my journey with him when we kind of identified a potential sex addiction. But honestly at this point, now that I’m at where I’m at in my life and in my journey, I think that he just went along with that diagnosis, went to a very expensive inpatient treatment center for three weeks, checked all his boxes because he knew that was the only way he could stay in in the marriage. But yet continued to exhibit all the behaviors. When he came out, he ended up getting fired from his job for sexual harassment of a younger person, younger than 21.

Trauma Mama Husband DramaAnne (15:18):
I’m gonna take a break here for just a second to talk about my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. You can find it on our books page which also has a curated list of all of the books that we recommend. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama is a picture book for adults. So it is the easiest way for you to explain what’s going on to someone who might not understand it. It’s also just a good reference for yourself because it shows what’s happening with very telling and emotional illustrations as well as infographics at the back.

Let’s talk about the pornography addiction recovery part of it for a minute. When you kind of went down that road for a minute, did anyone in that space or at that clinic tell you that you are an abuse victim? Was abuse brought up or that this is an abuser?

Going Down the “Sex Addiction” Rabbit HoleLeslie (16:36):
I had caught him multiple online affairs, things like that. And we were at our last straw. We were seeing a couple’s counselor and the last time I had caught him before we decided to give him this new label, I said to him, uh, he, we were talking and he goes, I don’t understand what’s wrong with him. He keeps getting caught. He knows what he is got to lose. And he goes, it’s almost like he has an addiction or something. And I go, well is there such thing as sex addiction? And of course then me with my, you know, analytical brain started going and researching everything. We started going down that path. We did start with CSA counselors, which stands for Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist. And he had one, I had one, he did end up doing one of the very well-known programs out in Los Angeles. It was during his intake where his intake manager had called to speak with me trying to get a background on my situation with him. That was the first time she finally said to me, you do realize what he is doing is domestic violence.

The Issue With The “Pornography Addiction Recovery Complex” Anne (17:49):
Oh, I’m so glad to hear that because most of the time when people go down the pornography addiction recovery route, they don’t hear the word abuse. Nope. And so I agree that is amazing that they said that and I’m really like happy about that. The other issue is, um, here at BTR.ORG, now people, some people don’t agree with us, in fact a lot of people don’t agree with us, you might not agree with us, is pornography addictive? Sure. Do people compulsively do these things? Yeah, I prefer to define it as abusive behavior rather than an addiction because I think that gets to the heart of the matter. And so the whole pornography addiction recovery complex that does not view this as this man is an abuser, it concerns me greatly because I do not think they’re addressing the correct thing.

I think once you got rid of the abuse and the entitlement and the like using people and consuming people, which is all abuse, my theory is they would not be so interested in consuming humans. If the underlying abuse was addressed, but it’s never addressed. It’s just try not to look at porn and try not to have affairs which doesn’t address the misogyny or you know, any of these other serious issues that that need to be addressed. Not just on this individual level but obviously societally. Can you talk about that for a minute?

Addressing The Issue As Abuse Rather Than AddictionLeslie (19:15):
I 100% agree with that. The two CSAT counselors that we were working with, his and mine, they were two different ones. Mine actually had been married to a sexual addiction abuser and she divorced hers. The other one that my ex had seen, she had stayed with hers. So it’s actually interesting to see the dynamic of what they brought to each of the therapy sessions when I would try to say, but he’s working so hard, he’s doing X, he’s doing Y. And she’d say yes, but did he do it all the times he was supposed to this week? Did you have to initiate it? How many temper tantrums did he have? How many times did he get in your face this week? How many anger management issues did he have this week?

Anne (20:03):
Did she ever call it grooming? Did she ever say, Mmm, well he’s checking boxes. That’s also called grooming. Did she ever bring that up?

Leslie (20:12):
She didn’t. She didn’t. But I’ve read that and the whole trauma bonding thing.

The Manufactured Relational TetherAnne (20:17):
Can we talk about trauma bond for a minute, Leslie? I’m not sure if you’ve heard our episode about this. I made up a different term for it. So, because I don’t like the word trauma bond because it just feels like that you actually maybe have a bond or something. I don’t know. I didn’t like it. And that doesn’t mean that it’s not useful to you. So if, if trauma bond is useful to you and it helps move you forward and get to safety, like continue using it. I didn’t like it cause it felt like a lot of women, um, feel stuck, right? They’re like, but I’m bonded to this person through this trauma. Yes. And so the term that I invented, and we have a video on this that is amazing. So I’ll put that in this episode. So if you go to our website and find this episode, the video will be in there. I call it the manufactured relational tether.

Leslie (21:01):
Actually, I think I’ve seen that.

Anne (21:02):
The reason I call it that is because you think you’re bonded to them, but they are not bonded to you. And they have manufactured this tether to keep you coming back and coming back. And the reason they’ve manufactured that is to keep you stuck. And that video really clearly shows it. Do you remember that video?

Leslie (21:21):
Yes, I do.

Anne (21:22):
What did you think of it?

“They Just See This Awesome Person; They Don’t See What Goes On Behind Closed Doors”Leslie (21:23):
I thought it was awesome because I saw so many things, like people who saw like our relationship from the start to the end, if they know now that we’ve divorced, they are just shocked. They’re like, oh Mike, you seem like such an amazing person. He brought you flowers every day. I hate flowers now. Just an FYI. To me that is a huge trigger because when he would be trying to hook up with someone and get caught, guess what he did? Brought me flowers or he was abusive that night. Guess what he did the next day? Brought me flowers. You know? So flowers to me are a huge trigger, but those are the, all the outside things that they manufacture to everybody else so that nobody will believe your story. Nobody will believe because they just see this awesome person, you know, they don’t see what goes on behind closed doors.

(22:20):
They don’t see the reactions. The reason that I bring up my breast cancer story, that was when I first really was starting to say, okay, I think that this is just not going to work. But then I found out I had breast cancer, I’ve got three grown children who don’t have their own father still alive. And I was like, and now I’m gonna leave them motherless. I cannot fight him and fight for my life. So I decided that that all would go on the back burner while I fought for my life. I feel like that gave him a little bit more leeway to continue that whole, you know, keeping me down more and more and more. And it wasn’t until after I’d been through the chemo, been through the double mastectomy, had been through months and months of CSAT counseling. We had done a therapeutic separation.

Shifting From Reconciliation to Safety(23:19):
Once I got out of the situation, I woke up one morning, looked and looked in the mirror, and I just didn’t recognize the person that was looking back at me anymore. I was just like, wow, you would never in a million years allow this ever, ever in your life. How are you allowing this now? And that was when I really started to take my power back. And that’s when I started kind of the change of not necessarily working toward our reconciliation, but working more on focusing on myself and what I needed. And if that happened, then it happened. And if it didn’t, I was okay with that as well.

Anne (24:07):
Well, and let’s talk about the, the disclosure and all that stuff. I think that is insane when you’re looking at abuse. In an ideal world, which never happens, um, it does happen here at BTR. That’s why I love BTR. It’s, it’s an amazing oasis of truth. But what should happen is the second you go in there and it’s hard because it took you forever to figure out they were an abuser. So, you know, why is a therapist smarter than you? They’re not right. You, you have six degrees by the way. Can you just list your degrees real quick? .

Leslie (24:40):
So I have, um, a bachelor’s in nursing. I have a master’s in nursing with family practice. I have a master’s in nursing in, um, neonatal. I have a doctorate. And I just went back with for a neonatal fellowship that I just finished last year.

Therapeutic Disclosures DO NOT Bring Safety to Victims of Sexual Coercion & AbuseAnne (25:01):
And you’re an MD. And you run two hospitals. So Leslie is no dummy, people. So if you, if you are like, why didn’t I see it? Why didn’t I know what was going on? And then Leslie is so smart that she starts researching things and in this case, no good deed goes unpunished, right? Because her research actually kept her in the abuse longer accidentally. Right. It’s not your fault. I’m, I’m not saying that, but because it wasn’t like abuse out of the gate, it’s like sex addiction, it’s maybe childhood trauma. It’s some other things. You, you go in and you’re given this like let’s do a therapeutic disclosure, let’s wait for a minute before you wanna separate because we wanna try and save the marriage or other things that perhaps a CSAT would tell you if you went to church or when you went to church. How did he present in a religious setting?

Leslie (26:00):
I was raised by a Catholic father and a Baptist mother. So they never agreed on religion. So I kind of found my religion later on in life. It was always kind of funny to me that he would say how Catholic he was. He went to a Catholic high school, his family went to church every Sunday, da da da da. But none of the things, all the lies, all the abuse, the stealing things that he would do that were immoral, just never added up to what a good Christian would do.

When Clergy Get Involved (And Harm the Victim More) Anne (26:41):
So my guess is even though you didn’t go for help in the clergy route, and a lot of women do, right? A lot of our listeners have tried to get help from clergy, from their pastor or their bishop or their rabbi. They have gone to get help and they are more abused in the process because the clergy does not know what they’re looking at. And they might be abusive themselves, number one. They might be steeped in misogyny and also they may really like him. I, I think that’s actually probably the biggest problem is that they know the guy and they think he’s a great guy. And so they’re like, what are you talking about? Because a lot of clergy responds pretty well when they don’t know the man. Like if they listen, they’re like, wow, that sounds abusive. How can we help? But if they know him, they were gonna believe him over you.

(27:27):
So it’s good that you didn’t try to get help from clergy. Cause my guess is that would’ve also been traumatic. But let’s focus then on the trauma that came from therapy. From like basically prolonging the abuse, not really calling it out, not recognizing it for what it was they did eventually. And then you started wrapping your head around it, which was great, but the process of the years of therapy that you went through and really somebody not being like, look, this is abuse, this isn’t addiction, this isn’t this, you don’t need to go through a therapeutic disclosure. You don’t need to have ’em take a, you know, whatever. Like right. He is abusive. You need to separate yourself from the harm and watch at a safe distance and not worry about managing.

The Moment that Leslie Chose Her Safety Over Her RelationshipBecause if you start managing an abuser, then that is just like basically fertilizing the ground and being like, here, groom me. Right? Check the boxes, do your grooming thing. And um, then the grooming just escalates as well as the abuse at the same time. Most victims, they are wonderful, amazing people. And so they go to the like classic relationship principles first. They go to love, serve, forgive, help, be helpful. When do you start realizing that being a supportive, helpful spouse is working against you?

Leslie (29:00):
I think honestly it was when I realized I had totally lost myself. I was not the person that I was, I wouldn’t engage in activities. I wouldn’t go out with my friends anymore. There were so many things that gave me joy that I would not do anymore just because I just existed. I was the major breadwinner. He did not work, he couldn’t hold down a job. And my breaking point for the first time we separated was we were actually in the car dealership getting him a new car cause his lease was up. And I looked over and he was actually on Tinder making a hookup while we were in the car dealership buying him a new car, he moved out. And that was a very explosive time. We tried to navigate through that. And even our couple’s counselor, a couple months into it finally had a meeting with me and he said, Leslie, how do you feel about a divorce and dating again? Because this is not okay.

There is No “WE” In an Abuse DynamicAnne (30:15):
Sorry. It’s interesting the words you’re using, you’re saying we, you’re using the word we and stuff. I think that’s really interesting because what happened in reality was that he’s an abuser, right? And he’s really losing control at this point. So he’s trying to like reassert control here, which is why things are escalating. And we as a couple are not working on anything. But because your perspective is “we” even now talking about it, I think it’s really interesting that victims still maybe like looking back, think, well “we” were trying, or you know, when that was never happening in the first place.

Leslie (30:54):
It was, it was only me, you’re 100%, right.

Anne (30:57):
Yeah, because you, you’re in the relationship, you have a relationship, but they don’t have a relationship with you. We’re gonna pause the conversation here. So join us next week to hear more of my interview with Leslie. If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. And until next week, stay safe out there.

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