The Half Marathoner: Recent Episodes
Terrell Johnson
Good morning, my friends! ☀️
Wherever you are in the world, I hope you’re waking up to a peaceful morning, one where the sun is shining and you’re getting out for a run sometime very soon.
As I write this, here in Atlanta we’re waking up after a night of curfew, and after a few days that have changed our city (and the country) forever. Last night was calmer than the night before, but I know there are many whose voices we still need to hear.
Back in March, when we went into quarantine for the first time, I was struck by how clean the air was in my city, where some 6 million people live and drive every day. Seen from the air, Atlanta is usually shrouded in a brownish dome of car exhaust fumes. But when we all had to stay home, that dome dissipated (very quickly, in fact).
What surprised me wasn’t just that it happened; it was how quickly the air freshened when we stopped pumping pollutants into it.
I bring this up not to make some facile analogy between the environment and racism in the human heart. But, as bad as things often seem — and they seem bad now, I acknowledge — nothing is set in stone. We create our world anew every day.
My hope and prayer is that we can begin, as soon as possible, repairing what has been broken and making right what has been wrong. There’s no better day to start doing that than today.
The man I interviewed for this morning’s conversation needs no introduction, of course — Bart Yasso, the unofficial “mayor of running” and the chief running officer at Runner’s World magazine for nearly three decades, who’s completed marathons on all seven continents as well as races like the Ironman triathlon and the Badwater Ultramarathon.
I was a little stunned when he agreed to talk with me, but that just shows you what a friendly, outgoing guy Bart is — he’s willing and enthusiastic about talking to anyone about running, how passionate he is about it, how excited he is that so many people have gotten into it lately, and what he thinks the future might hold.
I hope you enjoy hearing from him as much as I did talking with him!
A big milestone for us
In all likelihood you didn’t know this, but yesterday was an important milestone for our newsletter and the community we’ve built here together — it’s the start of our third year together.
It’s incredibly heart-warming and gratifying to see so many of you who became paid subscribers at the end of May two years ago stick around for another year. And, it’s incredibly motivating for me to keep making it worth your while to be a part of this community.
It wouldn’t be what it is without each and every one of you, the contributions you make and the things you write, both directly to me and in our discussions here.
Please know that I love hearing from you, hearing your stories, and plan on making them a bigger part of this going forward over the next year.
Keep in touch, let me know how you are, and what you’re doing with your running now — and thank you SO much for sticking with us!
— Terrell
Here are some highlights from our interview:
On why running has been difficult for him lately:
“There are people running more than ever because they have the time and, but there's people like me that just aren’t running. I just don't... it just has me in a funk, you know? I’m just not cool with the whole thing and I just can't... I’ve probably run three, four times in the past five, six weeks.
I'm a social animal. And so this has got [to] me. You know, even if I don't get to run with people, I'm out there going for a run so I can run with a group and that stuff is all, not around. I'm starting to come out of it a little bit. I did a little run this morning. I just ran like a mile, but just felt good to be out there. But it just was enough to like jump-start me. I'm going to get serious about getting back out there.”
On why to have fun with your running:
“I always say, don't look at training as you were only doing it for this race. If you're in good shape, be happy you're trained for that race [even if] the race isn't going to happen. You're still in good shape. So don't look at it as a negative.
There's people like me that have been doing this stuff for 43 years and you know, it has me in a little funk. So it's probably a good time to take a break. And that's what I've really been doing. Whichever way you go is fine. But it bums me out when I see people say, ‘oh, I wasted all this training.’
You never waste training. Training should be fun and you should be wanting to do this. I never went out for a run and said, you know, I hope this benefits this race or whatever. I just liked to do it and that's why I really want people to keep it fun.”
On the difficulty of bringing big races back before a vaccine is widely available:
“I can see smaller races coming back. Right now most areas are saying no more than gathering of 10 people — at some point it'll go to 50 people and maybe it'll go to a hundred people and someone can do a race.
But big races, I just cannot see it happening. Take New York, Chicago, Boston — it's not only the amount of runners, it's the amount of spectators. I mean, it's a massive deal. The last two miles of the Boston marathon, besides all the runners going through on the streets, the roads on both sides are packed.
In the New York, the [marathon] course goes right through New York City. There's millions of people that live there. You can't tell everyone, today you can't come out of your house and watch the marathon. Baseball, football may happen without crowds, but they have a contained venue, in a stadium [where] they can control who walks in the door. [For races] you can't do that...
Once things do start happening and the smaller races can happen, I think they're really gonna try to figure out how not to gather everyone at the same place. Say there's 500 people on the race — maybe these 200 people start at 8:00 and the next 200 start at 9:00 and the next 200 start at 10:00. Do something like that, to alleviate mass groups of people at the start and finish.”
On how virtual running has been surprisingly fun for him (and why it might play a big role in our future):
“Some of these ideas that are going to come out — I just saw one called the broken ladder, [where] they started out with like, everyone runs three miles and then the next day you add on a mile and everyone runs four miles. And then the next day it's five miles. And I think they're up to 32 miles and there's like two runners left. So yeah, someone has to crack.
They've already got to really stick with it and I, you know, that kind of stuff is pretty cool. So I think a lot of those, you know, uh, there's a lot of runners out there, a lot of race directors have some cool ideas. So I think they’re going to put their thinking caps on and come up with some cool virtual races and not just your traditional races.”
On why not to take things for granted now:
“I always remind people, if you can get out there, get out there. Don’t wait. I’ve got to take that lesson myself because I've been in a funk over all this stuff. So I’ve really got to get out there and just be thankful that we still can do this.
Because the people [in some European countries] that were quarantined really hard, it was illegal to leave your home. They were running in stairwells — one guy did a marathon on his balcony! Another guy did one in his hallway. They were just thinking of something to do so they didn't go crazy. Well, there's ways you can motivate yourself and I think that's a key to thing to do.
Read a good running book that, uh, you know, somebody that's overcome a lot and uh, that'll get you get you fired up and realize, ‘hey, we've got it pretty good, let's go out there.’ I always remind people, there's some people that live under suppression all the time. We're pretty lucky.”
On why he waits at finish lines to greet every runner:
“When the gun goes off, we all follow the same path to the finish line. But each of us has taken a unique path to get to the starting line. In running, if there's 5,000 people in the race, there's 5,000 stories out there.
You're not born a marathoner and say, ‘oh this is a marathon.’ Something gets you going. And you know, a lot of people use the sport to overcome so much. Just to make themselves feel good and to realize what they can do if they put their mind to it. That's what makes our sport very special.
That's why I'm always at the finish line until there's nobody left. That last runner that comes in, no matter how long it takes them, they put that bib number on and went out there, and I'm going to stay at that finish line to like cross the line. Cause there's a lot of stories that come in late in the race.”
More about Bart Yasso
Learn more about Bart at:
His website, BartYasso.com
Follow him on Instagram here and Twitter here
And listen to more of our audio series with running coaches:
Rogelio Quintanar on how to run now: ‘We’re given this opportunity to think outside the box’
Mary-Katherine Fleming on getting what you need from running
Sarah Canney on remembering why you started running in the first place
David & Megan Roche on running and the inevitability of adversity: 'We're all adjusting to this new normal, and you have to get creative'
Wes Judd on running without races: ‘This is not going to be wasted training. It’s all hay going into the barn’
Jeanne Torre on slowing down: ‘For runners who’ve been training hard, this is an opportunity to dial it back’
This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.thehalfmarathoner.com/subscribe
Good Sunday morning, friends!
Last Sunday, you heard from my friend Jeanne Torre, an Atlanta-based running, health and wellness coach, who shared her thoughts about how we can approach running and training when we can’t race.
That sparked an idea for me — why not reach out to other running coaches around the country who are now working with runners at all levels, who might be able to help guide us through this period together?
Today, we hear from Wes Judd, a 28-year-old ultramarathoner and running coach based in Chicago, Ill. I came across him after reading this article in last week’s Chicago Tribune, about the challenges runners in the Windy City are facing while we’re all on quarantine.
I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did — Wes is a great guy and an insightful coach, with lots of wisdom to share.
Your friend,
— Terrell
P.S.: You can read a transcript of our conversation below, if you’d prefer.
Wes Judd, running an ultramarathon last year.
‘Runners, by definition, are goal-motivated. We need a light at the end of the tunnel to work towards’
Terrell Johnson: I saw the article about you in the Chicago Tribune and was really intrigued by just how you're approaching this whole thing right now. Just what we're all going through. Wes Judd: Thanks for having me! My running journey started in roughly 2013. I was in college. I played lacrosse in high school, pretty active there. But then in college was relatively sedentary, did a lot of stuff outside of athletics. I was a part of the school radio and newspaper, things like that. But then senior year was feeling a little out of sorts.I had some friends who went on some runs in the evening, so I just started joining them and I became a hobby jogger you could say, going on easy runs at night. Then for a couple of years after graduating, which was I graduated in 2013, I moved from city to city on my own from jobs and internships and things like that. Didn't have a car, wasn't making a ton of money, so I wasn't joining a gym.The running hobby just was like a snowball that was rolling downhill and collecting a kind of weight and significance in my life. I moved to Denver at one point and fell into a trail running community there. I discovered what ultra running was and read Born to Run. I think that's a pretty common story for young ultra runners. Yeah. So I just kind of fell down the rabbit hole and I ran recreationally for about three years before I ever raced.It was just a hobby. It was for myself. I really enjoyed it. But the thing is I always, from the start wanted to be an ultra runner. That was kind of just the community I fell into. I wasn't extremely fast, like I wasn't a mile run or anything like that. I just liked doing the long distances. So I was always going to be an ultra runner. But yeah, so my eyes at that point were kind of open to, I guess you could say my potential and also how to train. I didn't really know what I was doing, just running every day and hoping that I get fitter and fitter. So it was at that point that things got a little more serious, I guess. I started working with a coach and it became a bigger part of my life.I mean it's been a really natural progression of just a hobby that I like and that I've developed more interest in and invested more time in. Here I am, like seven years later, and I'm still just as passionate as I was day one. About a year ago I started working with runners as well, just as kind of a natural extension — not helping people win the Olympic trials or anything like that, but just the recreational runners who don't really know where to go or how to start.Terrell Johnson: Oh that's really good because I was going to ask who is your running coach and how you got into the coaching. Did you just find yourself almost naturally giving people a helping hand? It just made sense to become a coach?Wes Judd: That's exactly right. I had a few friends who reached out, family members, things like that. My sister ran her first marathon in 2017 and I coached her through that and really liked that experience. For a day job I'm in financial planning — so I really like sitting across the table from someone else, hearing about their goals, their life circumstances, the time, the risk tolerance, etc., and kind of crafting a tailored plan.So it's really natural extension to just do that in running as well. It's not as if I'm out at the track every night with a whistle — [it’s] all building plans online. But it's been a big part and a really rewarding part of my life for a while.Terrell Johnson: My first question is sort of going to be, so what goals did you have coming into the season? Because I know for folks that have read your article, it opens with you and sort of like we're all coming into the spring here and this is really when the time running really begins to hit its stride for the year. You have all these big races that are coming up. Now, none of us can do any of those things, right?Wes Judd: Yeah.Terrell Johnson: How have you been handling that?Wes Judd: That's the million dollar question. Personally, for me, speaking from my experience first. I completely lucked out for two reasons: one, I already for a long time have had a goal that I wanted to accomplish that had nothing to do with the race. That was this FKT (fastest known time) on the [Chicago] lakefront path. I run that every single day, more or less.From day one I thought, there's got to be a record here and if there is, I want to investigate it. Once I figured out what it was and that it was kind of achievable, it was always a goal in the back of my head. So I've been thinking for a year now. If there's ever a lull in my calendar, this is what I'm going to do. So I was fortunate in that sense that I had this goal that had nothing to do with the race.I was particularly lucky that I just happened to pick the weekend to do it before the lakefront trail closed. So I think an issue that people are dealing with now is, a lot of the places I like to run are just closed or they feel unsafe going there. I chose the weekend to do it right before the lakefront trail was closed. So for me in particular, the stars sort of aligned.In terms of other folks and athletes I'm working with, it's a tough situation. Runners by definition are goal-motivated. We need a light at the end of the tunnel to work towards. So I think this period is really forcing a lot of runners, at least the few athletes that I work with, to re-evaluate their relationship with running. Why are they running? Has it always been for the next race?Has it always been for, I don't know to put it crudely, the Instagram likes? What are they really training for? Do they like getting out there every day? Because right now the only thing that's motivating them to get out there every day, is the love to get out there every day. In fact, they have to love it so much, that they put themselves maybe at a little bit of risk right now by going outside.I mean I don't think any runners ever faced a position like this. I think the athletes that I'm working with, I've framed it in a couple of ways.
We can rest and reset — that's the obvious one. You can take a step back, which is perfectly normal. You can focus on other things in your life. You can give your body a break. You can maybe start some PT work that you've been neglecting. Maybe start a meditation practice.Just sort of take that time that you've been running and focus on something else. I find a lot of athletes and myself in particular like, yeah — that sounds great. I want to keep running.
‘We have all the time in the world... you don't necessarily need to be peaking for a race.’
So how can I keep running? I think this is a good time — if you can train safely and if you feel comfortable training on the outside — to focus on speed work. Speed work kind of takes a back seat to tailoring exactly what you're going to do for the race.If you're training for a marathon you don't necessarily need 5K, 10K speed, but I've found that whether you're back of the pack or front of the pack or ultra marathon or mile runner, that sort of 5k, 10K speed is really translatable. But [normally] there's not a lot of time to work on it. So I'm working with a lot of runners, this is a great time. Let's set aside big long runs and things like that and just kind of really focus on speed.I have some runners though too, who it's on their bucket list to put together a big week. An 80-mile training week, a 100-mile training week — and now's the time. We have all the time in the world. We have the time to run. We have the time to rest and recover. You don't necessarily need to be peaking for a race. So if we kind of beat you up so to speak, it's not as if you're going to compromise your performance in the marathon.So building volume in is nice. Then I have some athletes who just want to challenge themselves. Set up PR. Even if it's not in a race, they just want to get out there, try to run a 10K as fast as they can. There are a lot of virtual runs too, which adds a little bit more structure and purpose I guess you could say to their attempt. So it really runs the gamut. I don't think there's one right way to be a runner right now.Terrell Johnson: That's a great point. I've just noticed, just in my own email inbox, looking around online, it seems like the number of virtual runs has just exploded right now. I mean it's like popcorn.Wes Judd: It's huge. Absolutely. Some runners are... they have more opportunities to quote-unquote “race” now than they did even if there were all the 5Ks and 10Ks in the world. Just because there was a virtual race every single weekend. Terrell Johnson: Yeah, that's really interesting. It is interesting just the creativity that people are coming up with. I mean, just the things I'm seeing on line what people are doing. Whether it's going to the top of their building, if they live in the large city and running just around the rooftop.Wes Judd: That's right.I think people, runners, it's like water. It's a river, it needs to flow and runners need to run and challenge themselves. Whether that's in a big city marathon or doing 120 laps around their building, they're going to find something to do. You know?Terrell Johnson: Yes. What do you hear from other people in the running community right now. In terms of, I mean, because everybody sort of wants to know, and this may be unfair to ask you this because there's probably no way you can know the answer to it — but do you have any sort of sense of when people think things will reopen up or when we can get back to some semblance of normal?Wes Judd: Yeah, I wish I knew the answer. I have a very hard time believing that people are going to feel comfortable at a massive city marathon, which is to say shoulder to shoulder with 10,000 to 20,000 people unless there is a vaccine. I don't know, hopefully I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. But I can't imagine people are going to feel great about jamming into the Chicago Marathon corral with a person a foot in front of them and behind them — unless there's a vaccine.Who knows when that's going to happen. I do hope and I think trail races, smaller 10Ks, things of that nature will start to pop up maybe in the fall. Maybe next year.
It's a little unsettling because for myself and athletes I work with, I think we could comfortably plan out the next three to four months and stay motivated there. This is a good block to focus on, like I said, speed or volume or set a challenge. But then after three or four months it's, what do you do? Do you just do it again? Terrell Johnson: Excellent question.Wes Judd: Yeah. So I honestly, I obviously don't know the answer to that. But I cannot imagine that everyone is going to feel comfortable going back to a big city marathon unless there's immunity. By everything I've read, that will probably take at least a year.Terrell Johnson: Yeah. You keep hearing that number thrown out 12 to 18 months. That's probably the best case. That's a pretty aggressive time table.Wes Judd: Yeah, it is. It is. In the grand scheme of things, running is not very important right now. But it means a lot, to a lot of people and it's something we care about. So it's a question worth asking and thinking about.Terrell Johnson: Yeah, definitely. My last couple of questions are like, what do you recommend to somebody that you work with or somebody who's just a really passionate recreational runner? What I hear from the folks who write into the newsletter a lot is, they're dealing with sort of a loss of focus and there's sort of that, they use these races as, just like you mentioned earlier, there are goals to shoot for.
I think a lot of them feel a sense of loss and a sense of sadness about that. What do you tell people, if you're talking to somebody?Wes Judd: I mean, this is much easier said than done. That is my massive caveat. But it's all a matter really of perspective. In the past runners look at their races as their motivating factor. It is sort of what guides them day to day. It's what's in the back of their head and it's where they place their value. I think it's just a matter of shifting that value, trying to find another reason to run, which again, much easier said than done.Races are so fun and you get celebrated for finishing them and you get all the Instagram likes and you get a medal. So it's easy for that to be the motivating factor, the light at the end of the tunnel. Right now you really just have to kind of shift your perspective and celebrate yourself and celebrate things that aren't races. So that could be consistency. I think that is the most important thing.
‘Give yourself some freedom... to feel that sense of loss, because we've all lost our goals as runners.’
So, maybe set a goal to hit 25 miles a week or whatever your number that's just slightly challenging for you, four weeks in a row. That is a goal in and of itself. Then you can log it all on Strava and at the end of the week you just see the perfect 25, 25, 25, 25 that's a nice aesthetic little thing you can look at and celebrate yourself. Celebrate consistency. But a lot of times people find it hard to really hit that gear, that next gear of intensity that's required to set a PR when you're all by yourself. So I think it's a combination of, like I said, shifting your perspective but also giving yourself patience and grace. It's okay to feel awkward and out of place and unsure of what to do and just knowing that it's okay to feel that way.Give yourself some freedom to feel that way and then once you kind of feel that sense of loss, because we've all lost our goals as runners for the summer and fall. Then just kind of re-calibrating what you're valuing. Maybe just setting a challenge as we talked about. Whether that's a virtual run. Whether that's climbing 10,000 feet in a week. Whether that's running more miles in a week than you ever have.Whether that's putting together two workouts a week for a month, integrating speed work in a very consistent way. Just instead of having a race be the goal, it sometimes literally requires writing down new goals, put it on paper, here's what I'm going to do.
‘At the end of the day, this is not going to be wasted training’
But at the end of the day this is not going to be wasted training. All the hay is going into the barn and it's going to stay there. You're just going to be that much better and that much fitter for it when we come out the other side.
If you take this time to just be really sedentary, and I don't want to say throw a pity party. But if you really, if you really decide to be inactive for this entire quarantine — that's a hole you're going to have to dig yourself out of on the other side.So I don't want runners I work with and I don't really advise anyone to be peaking, to be getting in the best shape of their life. I think maintenance fitness, so to speak, is essential right now if you're a long-term lifelong runner. This is just more opportunity to keep laying the groundwork to keep laying the bricks.Terrell Johnson: How are you mentally approaching your own running right now?Wes Judd: I kind of had a shift a few years ago where I really, really started enjoying the process of training. I think for a long time I think I deluded myself into thinking I was a process-oriented runner, but I really was just going from race to race. About a year ago I worked with a really great coach. His name is David Roche and he helped me appreciate training for the sake of training.
I really do like racing, but for the longest time I was training just to race. So this opportunity to train without any race on the calendar is honestly a gift. It is something that I'm really happy about. That I can train and if I have a little niggle pop up, I can take some time off. If I get exhausted, I can take some time off. I don't need to string together what I think is a perfect eight weeks of training right before a race.
I can go with the flow and I can just sort of train. That honestly to me, that sounds like a lot of fun. So I'm in the fortunate position where that doesn't really upset me, it's just not having a race on the calendar. I'm excited about that.
So personally I'm trying to practice what I preach, everything I just preached to you and use this as an opportunity to put a lot of hay in the barn. To really just kind of train and not have the pressure of a race hanging over my head.I don't have to push through it, just because I feel like I need to hit 80 miles that week or whatever. I can just go with the flow. So that's kind of where I'm at. We'll see if that motivation is still there in four months and there's still no race on the calendar. But I'm just trying to take it week by week. Yeah.Terrell Johnson: I think that's an excellent place to stop. I actually got in touch with David Roche, [and] I'm going to interview him at some point in the next week.Wes Judd: Wonderful@ He's a guru of running. It's incredible. Both as a person and as a resource for or training. It's just, he's an amazing person.Terrell Johnson: I read his book last year. He and Megan's book. So I was blown away by it. As a closing question, can you name any resources that you really recommend for runners in general or runners right now?Wes Judd: David and Megan Roche’s book, The Happy Runner, really helped me and I work with David so I get a little dose of that every single day. But his book really helps much more clearly articulates and help frame everything that you and I just talked about, which is why you're running.
For instance, the book, it's, I don't know, 300 page book and sizable book. It's only in the last half that he talks about training. The first half is all about you as a person, your relationship with running, your relationship with food and sleep and recovery. The intrinsic motivation.
The extrinsic motivation of running. I think, boy, if there's ever an opportunity for runners to have to have those conversations with themselves, now is the time. I cannot think of a better resource than The Happy Runner to really help you start that conversation with yourself. They're both really good writers, really funny writers.
A race discount
Obviously, we don’t yet know the fate of the many, many races that have been postponed or cancelled this year. The organizers of the Rock ‘n’ Roll San Jose Half Marathon, however, sent us a special discount this week, and I wanted to pass it along to you.
Rock ‘n’ Roll San Jose Half Marathon in San Jose, Calif., on Sunday, Oct. 4, 2020 — save $10 with the discount code HMNRNRSJ
If you’re unable to run the race for any reason, you can defer it until the next year (but it will cost a $45 deferral fee).
Again, we may not know the fate of this race until later this year; but I wanted to pass it along just in case it does run this year.
— Terrell
This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.thehalfmarathoner.com/subscribe
'Raven has a way of drawing out the uniqueness in people.'
Good Sunday morning, my friends! ☀️
Our next book club pick and discussion is one I’m really, really excited about, as I had the chance to speak earlier this week with Laura Lee Huttenbach, the author of Running With Raven.
For those of you who aren’t familiar with her work, Huttenbach grew up in Atlanta, where she was a star athlete in four sports (including cross country), and in high school was named Georgia’s Female Athlete of the Year.
Today, she is a freelance writer based in New York City after several years spent living in Miami Beach, where she moved in 2011 and met Robert “Raven” Kraft by chance on the beach one day. Intrigued by his story, and the tribe of runners alongside him, she decided to join one of his afternoon runs, and the rest is history.
Photo by Mary Beth ‘Yellow Rose’ Koeth, a fellow Raven runner
A quick housekeeping note: we’ll conduct our book club discussions like we did for Running With Sherman — let’s plan on discussing the first six chapters in our first installment, which I’ll send out next Friday, March 20.
On the following two Fridays (March 27 and April 3), we’ll discuss chapters 7-13 and chapters 14-19, respectively. Just let me know if you need more time, by the way, and I can adjust this schedule.
Laura Lee and I spoke about Raven, running and the impact he has had on the lives of hundreds (thousands, perhaps) of people who have joined him on the run over the years.
Right before our interview, she added, she spoke with Raven by phone and said he’d be open to joining us for an interview and/or a live discussion as well — which I think we’d all get a huge kick out of! Let me know what you think. 😀
— Terrell
Terrell Johnson: This is a really different kind of running book; most books about running are by professional runners or people who are really at a high level — the Dean Karnazeses and Deena Kastors and Kara Gouchers of the world. Raven is a more ordinary, down-to-earth person. What drew you to writing about him?
Laura Lee Huttenbach: I have a background in cross country running in high school, but I never really got into the super technical side of running. I just would put on my running shoes and go outside and like to run a fast three or five miles. And I usually did it by myself.
When I moved to Miami Beach — that's a special place to live and run — and I would pass him running. On the front cover of the book is Raven with a really hairy chest and a mullet, and he wears a headband and always black shorts. And so he definitely calls your attention, and I just was immediately curious about why he was running at the same time every day and who are all these people running with him where that were a real diverse group of individuals.
TJ: You mentioned Miami beach is a really special place. What is it about Miami?
LLH: It's gone through a ton of changes, of which Raven has been an observer and participant and because he's run in the exact same place for 45 years. He can tell you about the changes in the city, from taking the exact same path every day.
There's a joke you hear from people in Miami Beach. They say if you are somebody, you go to New York; if you want to be somebody, you go to L.A.; if you want to be somebody else, you go to Miami. It’s a pretty transient town — a lot of people in Miami aren't from Miami, and [you] can have this luxury of creating the identity that you want to have there.
‘[Raven] does what he says he's going to do. He runs every day, and he's just this genuine person. He doesn't have a cell phone. He's never ridden in an airplane. He doesn't have a passport. He doesn't have a driver's license.’
But it can have this reputation of people not always being who they say they are, or who they represent themselves as. And so navigating that landscape, and of course it is a stereotype, there's a lot of people that are, that don't follow that. I met some of my nearest and dearest friends while I was living there.
Raven is pretty much the opposite of that stereotype. He's not a showy individual, he does what he says he's going to do. He runs every day, and he's just this genuine person. He doesn't have a cell phone. He's never ridden in an airplane. He doesn't have a passport. He doesn't have a driver's license.
When I started running with Raven, I noticed one thing that people seem to have in common that were with him was that they were either striving to be more authentic to themselves or they just were more authentic individuals. And that was really attractive to me to see just a group of people that was trying to be closer to themselves and who they were.
Raven has a way of drawing out the uniqueness in people. I think he considers himself a character, and I think he likes seeing the character parts of other people. So he'll draw that out of you if you are not sure what your quirk is. Raven will probably find it in the conversation and he'll give you a nickname like naming you for your quirkiness.
TJ: For a reader who's new to the book, how would you describe Raven to someone who'd never heard of him, who didn’t know anything about him?
LLH: His claim to fame — and a lot of news stories about him focus on this, of course — is the running streak. In 1975, he made a new year's resolution to run eight miles every day without exception on the sands of South Beach. And he has continued that streak every single day up until now.
So this past January was 45 years of running eight miles every day on the sand. And that would already make him a pretty unique individual. There are some runners that have maintained longer streaks than him. But one thing that makes him, or a couple of things that make him unique in his streak is that he hasn't run alone maybe even once in the last 14 years by himself.
Every single day, runners have shown up. They meet at the 5th street lifeguard stand in Miami Beach and run with him. So when you think about the weather in Miami, and the hurricanes they get, and the tropical storms and the rain storms and all of that — it's a pretty amazing thing that people have shown up to run even in the bad weather with him.
Laura Lee ‘White Lightning’ Huttenbach (in white shirt) runs alongside Raven during a run on South Beach. Photo by Mary Beth ‘Yellow Rose’ Koeth.
I just got off the phone with him before we talked and he told me that [he] thinks today it's 132,360 miles that he run and 16,506 days [in a row].
TJ: That’s just amazing.
LLH: He keeps track of his mileage and the days and also the runners that run with him. So if you're a regular runner, when you show up or even if you're not a regular runner, when you show up he'll be like, "hey, good to see you man. Today is run number 2000 whatever." Or, you're at so many miles and there's like little milestones that people can get. So like when I ran my 1000th mile with Raven, he gave me a little black wristband that he gave me that says, “Raven Run.” And so he also really tries to make it feel like a community and an institution.
What a lot of stories [on Raven] I thought didn't necessarily focus on is the community that he's created and he, every single day that someone in Miami — either living there or just visiting — if they're a runner or curious about this community, you can go and show up and it's free. It's open and it's inclusive and you can meet people doing something healthy, and that's pretty special... he's a pretty unique fellow.
TJ: It seems like that was a theme that runs through [the book] for a lot of people who would join him on the run. And what do you think he wanted to be? What is he seeking? What are the people who come out and run with him seeking?
LLH: In the book, you learn more about his background and his family dynamics and his career. But he always kind of felt like an outcast. And I would say his greatest fear is of abandonment; he moved around a lot as a kid, lots of different apartments and homes. And so I think he really wanted to establish a permanence and also feel like he was part of a family and feel like he had accomplished something.
He didn't have a super strong athletic pedigree, growing up. When he started running, he met these two boxers at the 5th street gym name Killer and Bulldog, and they took him running. When he ran those two miles with them, he really felt like he had accomplished something and the adrenaline was pumping and he felt healthy.
‘Everyone wants to feel needed and missed and that their presence is bringing value to a space. And I think the run has definitely given that to Raven.’
And then as they run, as he started running a little more, he got more specific on the time that he started. And so it developed really into this consistent pattern. Because he felt his life was a little bit chaotic too, he really used to the run as a structure. And in the first decade or two, he didn't really have a lot of things — he didn't really have as many people running with him. It was really just for himself — structure, discipline, putting his life in order and feeling like he had accomplished something every day.
Later, when he got a little more publicity and more people running with him, I think the other elements fell into place — feeling like he has a family, and so other people motivate him to come out now.
In our society today, I think a lot of people are — although there's so many opportunities to connect virtually on Facebook and so many risk things come from that as you know from your newsletter (you all really have created a special community as well) — there's some element of actually showing up and seeing people.
And, because Raven doesn't have a cell phone, he's not texting on the run. He's just there and running. So I think people that are seeking structure and seeking a sense of a permanence or greater permanence — I think are drawn to Raven.
What you mentioned at the beginning, of this not being your typical runner's guide or runner's book — I definitely don't think many people will put down Running With Raven and be like, "what a great idea. I'm going to spend the next 45 years of my life running eight miles every day and not missing a day and I'm going to start a streak!"
But it might spark something that you've been meaning to do or some habit that you've been trying to cultivate and say, "I'm going to try this out and see how it changes my life and try to stick to it." And yeah, I don't think it would be wise to necessarily follow exactly, but I think there are things you can take from Raven's story that might be useful to people in their own lives.
TJ: You mentioned a moment ago, he did this for a decade really before anyone noticed. [I wonder] how many runs he just did all by himself out there, for years probably? Raven has said it gives him a sense of purpose. Now, I imagine that the people coming out, he feels a responsibility to them as much as to the run itself.
LLH: It's definitely evolved into that. I think he used to show up for his own benefit and hiss own discipline and structure. But now he also shows up and is motivated by other people showing up — he doesn't want to disappoint other people and he knows that people are going to be there and waiting for him and expect him to show up.
And he really finds that very fulfilling. Everyone wants to feel needed and missed and that their presence is bringing value to a space. And I think the run has definitely given that to Raven.
TJ: How's he doing today? Because 45 years — that's a long, long time!
LLH: in the book I describe him as having a body that looks kind of like an apostrophe. Certainly, the miles have taken their toll. He has a spinal stenosis, and sciatica, and some scoliosis, and his feet hurt. So definitely has issues with chronic pain. And because of the streak running culture, when you have a little ache or a sports injury, the standard would probably be take a few days of rest. Relax, let it heal. But he doesn't follow those orders at all. He's also been recommended as a good candidate for having surgery but wouldn't want to do the recovery because that would keep him off the stand.
So the first few miles [of the eight] are usually pretty tough on him. But then, as he gets a little loosened up, they're a little bit easier. But certainly he's battling some aches and pains and running a lot slower. When he first started out he was running a 7:30 pace.
TJ: On the sand?!
LLH: On the sand, yes! And even when I started running with them in 2011 it was, I don't know, I didn't actually pace anything; it's just not that type of run.
Usually ... Raven doesn't really even like talking about that much, like any kind of technical aspects of running. So, he's probably not someone that would be impressed a lot by talking about your times on different races or anything. So yeah, when I started running with him in 2011, I don't know how fast he was, maybe a 10-minute mile or 11-minute miles, I have to guess. But now it's more like a 14 minute mile maybe.
For some runners, that's still an accomplishment. There's runners that are in their 70s and 80s running with him and that's great. That they get out and run with him at that pace. But for the runners that are accustomed to doing a faster pace, the thing you get out of running with Raven isn't necessarily just like a remarkable training exercise, but the community and the stories and honoring his legacy.
TJ: The book has been out about three years now. What has been the reaction to it, and has anything surprised you?
LLH: Well, my favorite response was usually a Facebook message or comments on my website or something that says like, “hey, I'm going down to run with Raven in two weeks. What time does the run start again?" And [others who tell me they] loved the book, want to get a nickname. So those are definitely my favorite responses.
Whenever you write something, you can't control how the reader is going to interpret a story and for the most part it's been super-positive. Sometimes I'll get readers that are like, this guy is crazy. What were you doing writing about him? But that's fine too. Again, it comes back to the point of, I never wrote this to be a runner's guide.
‘Every day I lived in Miami Beach, I knew where I could find one friend.’
I'm sure all runners have gotten questions from their loved ones: “it's freezing outside, what are you doing running? You pulled your quad the other day. Why are you back out running?" So, there is a bit of insanity to voluntarily doing what we do. I think Raven just takes that to another level.
But yeah, there the response has been just positive and even from non-runners that read the book, I think they pull something out of Raven's character or just the stories of South Beach. It's such a diverse city that there are a lot of characters that Raven tells stories of. So you don't have to be a runner to read it. There are maybe some inside winks of if you are a runner. But I think people interested in just any complicated individual's story, or in South Beach, will get a kick out of his story.
TJ: Now that the book has been out for a while, what should people know about Raven today?
LLH: Raven's still running. So if someone has plans to go to South Beach, [you] are invited and welcome to join Raven on an eight-mile run. When you finish the eight miles, that's when you get a nickname. We all know one another in the community by our nicknames... And so when Raven writes me letters, he addresses them to White Lightning, which is my nickname.
I'm really excited that you all chose Running With Raven for your book club selection and I just hope people like the book and that it's entertaining and that it speaks to everyone in a different way.
TJ: Do you keep in touch with any of the people that you used to run with when you were living in Miami?
LLH: Two of my best, best friends are Raven runners. One of them Yellow Rose or Mary Beth Koeth. She's a photographer and she actually did a documentary about Raven called The Unstoppable Man and she's still in Miami. We chat all the time. And then another dear friend Jurisprudence, her real name is Becca and she also lives in New York. I have some very dear friends from Miami and
There's no one in New York doing what Raven is doing — there are definitely runner groups and a lot of opportunities to be social while running and meet people with common interest. But what I mentioned earlier, the fact that every day that I lived in Miami Beach, I knew where I could find one friend.
Raven, photographed by Mary Beth ‘Yellow Rose’ Koeth.
More
Laura Lee Huttenbach author website
The Raven Run official website
Buy Running With Raven on Amazon here, at Barnes & Noble here, or from the independent bookstore Avid Bookshop here.
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The questions you guys asked in last Friday’s discussion thread were fantastic and thought-provoking — and go far beyond what I can answer!
That’s why I’m glad I had the chance to connect with running coach Sarah Axelrod of the Boston-based Fitness Protection Program, who shared her thoughts on what many of you asked on Friday: how to become a faster runner.
Here’s a few highlights from our conversation:
The ‘long game’ is important to becoming faster
“The mindset of just being consistent in your training, staying healthy and building volume is really the best way to get there and to not be in a rush to get there, I think, is the other thing that's really the key because ultimately I'm playing a really long game. I still want to be doing this when I'm 80. I really do. I think that would be amazing and I would rather have that than pretty much any single race time that could possibly fall out of anything that I would be doing.”
Running ‘as consistently as possible without stopping is the number one thing’
“People want to get faster. [You do that] not by doing more speed work and more magic workouts for any distance, but by running-specific strength training on a really consistent basis.
“Being able to run as consistently as possible without stopping is the number one thing that's going to make you faster. And you will be able to do that if you run easier and if you make sure you're keeping your body strong... it’s a little bit counter-intuitive to say that you need to run easier in order to ultimately get faster.
Why you need to go easier than you think
“It's really hard for a lot of runners to do because we get really caught up in, I need to do more. I need to work harder. I need more speed workouts. I need more of this. I need more of that. On my rest day, I'm going to go to a spin class because that's good cross training. And spin classes really just going to tire you out and then you're not actually going to recover from your harder day.”
Running slower won’t slow you down — but injuries from training too hard sure will
“Whenever someone talks about hating running, my first thought is you're probably going too fast. You might have a much nicer time if you were willing to slow down a little bit.
I have a four-year-old daughter, and in the years before my she was born... it was not acceptable to me to run slower than 10-minute miles — ever. It hurt my feelings. It made me feel bad if I had a run where I was running slower than 10-minute miles. My easy effort pace is a little slower than 10-minute miles now after three years of heart rate training. But I honestly really don't care about that anymore.
What happened? I had a lot of injuries in that period. I injured my IT band and that took a very long time to come back from.”
More about Sarah Axelrod:
Fitness Protection Program website and Facebook page
Sarah and MK Fleming’s Coaching Blog
Coach Sarah on Instagram
Hope you enjoy the conversation! Love to know your thoughts when you have a moment.
— Terrell
P.S.: I’m including only a few brief highlights in this email, but I’ll post a full transcript of our conversation on our website.
P.P.S.: I’m new to podcasting/audio, so please forgive what I’m sure will come across as my newbie approach to this. We’ll do more of these — I plan to interview coaches about your questions as often as possible — so hopefully these will improve as we go along!
This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.thehalfmarathoner.com/subscribe