with Jeff Dorchen follows the interview.Check out Ray's book here: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo256019296.htmlHelp keep This Is Hell! completely listener supported and access bonus episodes by subscribing to our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thisishellPlease rate and review This Is Hell! wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps the show ascend the algorithm to reach new listeners.