How do we interact with Bitcoin in a multi layer world? What cost savings and trade offs are necessary here? What even counts as a layer? Kilian from boltz.exchange joins me to talk about swapping across Bitcoin on-chain, Lightning and Liquid. We discuss:

• How swapping works
• What makes it atomic and non-custodial
• What counts as layer 2
• Fee savings and trade offs

Links:

• X: @kilrau
• Site: boltz.exchange
• X: @boltzhq
• Taproot feature blog post: Introducing Taproot Swaps: Putting the"Fun" Back into Refunds!

Sponsors:

• Swan.com (code LIVERA)
• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)
• Mempool.space
• Nomadcapitalist.com

Stephan Livera links:

• Follow me on X: @stephanlivera
• Subscribe to the podcast
• Subscribe to Substack

Chapters/Timestamps:

• 00:00 - Introduction and Background
• 03:07 - Boltz.exchange: Moving Between Bitcoin Layers
• 05:35 - Use Cases for Lightning Service Providers
• 09:45 - Enhancing Wallet Functionality
• 13:20 - Non-Custodial Atomic Swaps
• 21:43 - Coinkite.com
• 23:07 - NomadCapitalist.com
• 24:25 - Fees and Fee Savings
• 29:35 - Trust Model of Liquid
• 32:40 - Regulatory Risks for Liquid
• 37:10 - Transaction Limits on Liquid
• 38:58 - Mempool.space
• 39:59 - Swan.com
• 41:02 - Scalability of Liquid
• 44:15 - Integration of Liquid with Other Services and Wallets
• 51:22 - Pragmatism in Bitcoin Adoption
• 55:45 - Operating in a High-Fee Environment
• 57:45 - Closing Thoughts