Artfully Told

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We have come to the end of Season 1. After the first eighty episodes interviewing amazing people, it is time for your host, Lindsey, to take a break. Learn more in this episode, and we'll catch you next time!

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

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Season 1 Finale

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I have some news to share with you. So I have over the last year and a half, had the most amazing opportunities to meet and interview some of the coolest people that I have yet to encounter. They are artists and creatives of all kinds. And whether they consider themselves to be professional or hobbyists or somewhere in between, what has made them all so special is their love and appreciation for art and the way that art brings us together and the stories that emerge from it that just make it so very cool. I have really thoroughly enjoyed this opportunity to chat with people and to hear their stories and to allow them another outlet to be creative by being on a podcast. And it's been an amazing outlet for me personally, especially after COVID shut down most of my other artistic endeavors.

[00:01:39] This has been an amazing thing for me to be able to do, but I am going to be taking a bit of a break. I don't have a particular timeline in mind right now. I have some big life changes coming up that are super exciting and they will allow me to actually really expand my horizons, expand and grow as a person and then, you know, even explore other artistic endeavors for myself and, or meet other people with other artistic endeavors too. And I'm really excited about this life change, but it is something that's gonna kind of need me to focus a little bit elsewhere for a while. And so I'm not saying that I won't be back, because my hope and plan is to be back at some point.

[00:02:29] But at the moment, what I would encourage you to do is first of all, shoot me an email if you have feedback on any of the episodes I've done so far and let me know, what are the things that you enjoy? What's your favorite part? What's your least favorite part? Good, the bad and the ugly. I'm all here for it. I'd love to hear what you have to say. And then in addition to that, I would love if you would listen to all of the back episodes. Each person that I've interviewed has brought really unique perspective on what the arts mean to them personally, as well as their experiences creating and being creative. And it's just such an inspiring group of people that I've had the opportunity to chat with. And I think you'll enjoy each and every one of them. So I would highly encourage you to take some time and go back through the episodes and really listen and, you know, absorb because that's pretty cool.

[00:03:30] And I just want to also say, you know, again, this isn't the end, this is only the beginning and I hope it's the only the beginning of your own artistic journey. What a fun opportunity for me to be able to do this and share this with the world and, and hopefully for you as listeners as well. I have appreciated so much every single one of you who has listened to even one episode, because it's meant that art gets to be explored and talked about and demystified again and again and again, and that is an honor to me, and it's a joy to me and I'm grateful.

[00:04:07] And I just want to tell each and every one of you that you are important, you matter, and what you bring to the world is beautiful. So thank you so much for listening to Artfully Told and cheers to the future for you, for me, for Artfully Told and for the world, and we will catch you next time.

[00:04:34] I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Erica Johnson! Erica owns her own business providing hair, skin, and makeup services to customers in the Kansas City area and beyond, and she is a prolific artist, always learning and taking courses in new art forms, including photography, metal-smithing, and more. She shares how she can retain hope even when life has thrown her way too many curveballs at her over the last two years, and the ways that art has played a powerful role in her healing journey.

Get in touch with Erica Johnson: www.ericajohnsonhairandmakeup.com

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Episode 080 - Erica Johnson

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so very delighted to have as my guest today, Erica Johnson. Erica is an amazing human being first and foremost, absolutely lovely person with so much to share and offer the world. And I'm so excited that she's here, but she is also an amazing artist and has not just dabbled, but become proficient in, many different art forms. And she just brings a wealth of experience and expertise as well as perspective that is so unique. And so, Erica, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to have you.

[00:01:14] Erica Johnson: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art in the first place and, you know, kind of where your career has, has led you, if you don't mind.

[00:01:30] Erica Johnson: Sure. So basically I do hair and skin for a living. It's something I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to just sort of make a woman feel beautiful, not just on the outside though, more or less on the inside as well, because we all know beauty fades. And you know I've been doing it since 2009 and it's what started as just me doing like hair and skin. I kind of dabbled into working with models and traveling. And then, you know, years later, I mean, I became self-employed and my business has turned a little more into like a ministry. So I it's, it's really cool to see how God works in my business and how he sends like-minded people too, whether it's the strength in me or me to strengthen them through encouragement from God or just a word of prayer.

[00:02:37] And leading up to that I, since 2020 have had just a really hard, hard circumstances obviously with the COVID situation, but I've had significant amount of losses in my life. From February last year, leading up to currently September, this year I've lost 12 people, family and friends. And so with being in support groups and just in different Bible studies I decided to just sort of get my hands into photography and metal- smithing. And so I've been taking a couple of classes, a way just to sort of express my grief, but also make sure it glorifies God. I, I just sort of use art to express my pain, but also what the elements, whether it be scripture inspired or just whatever God leads me to, but I express it through art, if that makes sense.

[00:03:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I know, like you've mentioned, you've had quite a bit of loss over the last couple of years, and I'm sure that has informed a lot of your life, of course, but I think it's really interesting that you've chosen to use art as an outlet to express what you need to, what you need to express, but then also that you have chosen to do it informs that have deep meaning for yourself. But then, I think, also could really maybe help other people as they're struggling maybe as well, or just, you know, maybe they're past the struggling, but they're, they're trying to also go through the emotions. And I know, you know, we have talked a lot about how, if you have faith that there is something more and that there is intentionality, you can at least, at least try to wrap your head around the concept of hope. And you're one of the most hopeful people I've ever met. And I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind speaking to that, especially considering that you could have every right to kind of just throw your hands up and be done, but I'd love if you would share more about, you know, your, your reason for being able to be so hopeful, and then also kind of how that's informed some of your work despite the hurt, if you're willing.

[00:05:11] Erica Johnson: Sure. I dunno how to describe it the best way, but I can basically go off of just my daily relationship with God and how God has met me exactly where I am, even in the middle of the pain and just-- perfect example of the metal piece in my metal- smithing class, we had to construct like a commemorative vessel and cast a piece that will go inside it. Well, I kind of struggled with commemorative vessel. And I really kept trying to make it go my way and, you know, put a perfect spin on it and just, you know, just trying to figure out where, where do I fit in or just find my way. And it's really interesting. It was back in June. Earlier this year, I decided to drive to the Weston State Park and I had just lost a dear pastor that I valued. And of course my dad's birthday was this particular day. And then my grandma had also passed away. My uncle passed away within the same timeframe.

[00:06:34] So as I'm driving to the Weston Park, I just asked God to give me a sign, give me hope to make it through this day. And you know, I see these three crosses on the side of the road anytime I drive, but this particular day, they literally like jumped out at me and I kinda just pondered. I'm like, "Wow. Okay." So as I get to the park, I'm just sitting there just kind of listening to the wind and watching the birds fly around. And I opened my little book that is from my group support book. And as I open it, I'm reading and it literally is speaking straight to my heart's cry about the cross and how without the cross and Jesus dying on the cross, every person that I have lost, there would be no opportunity for me to ever be able to see them again. But because of Jesus dying on the cross, I will get to see them in eternity and they, they won't be sick. There will be no suffering. There will be, you know, they'll just be made new. And constantly over and over again with this little short grief journey, it's been quite the, I mean, it's just, God has been showing me the cross, the cross. And I guess in a way that's, that's where my hope is, is how God has just met me every step of the way.

[00:08:10] And even, even, as I said before, with me trying to construct a commemorative vessel piece, making it perfect or trying to go my own way, God has met me in the middle of that and reminded me that nothing is ever perfect. Only Jesus is perfect, who died on the cross and basically like just really strengthening my faith because by nature, I'm naturally a planner. Things do need to go my way. They need to go a certain way, but this faith walk is not that way. It is, that's truly to me what God is showing me. That's what faith is. And if you're so concerned about your plans, you're never going to be open to God's plans that He has for us in. And for me like to trust in God's character, that God's character, one of his character traits that I always cling to is He is good.

[00:09:06] So it helps me to be hopeful that even though this is painful, the beauty that God gave us a savior who suffered so much, but that on the cross and left us with the Holy Spirit to guide us and comfort us, that that to me is more hopeful and reassuring. And the fact that literally it's becoming very essential to my life. And just resting in God's promises. I mean, they, they truly have never returned void. If that makes sense.

[00:09:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think your perspective is so helpful and beautiful in that way, that, that you are able to take, you know, difficult situations, but still find beauty and hope despite them, or, or even through them, kind of like you said, getting met where you are is really a powerful concept. You don't have to try to be anybody else or be in a different emotional state or anything, you're just --you're you. And that's, that's a beautiful thing too. And so I'm curious, obviously you have had multiple different art forms that you've pursued over the years, which is super cool. Was photography and also metalworking-- where those always interests of yours or did they kind of develop later on, or how did all that come about for you?

[00:10:37] Erica Johnson: Well, I let's see. I've always loved to take pictures. I always kind of had like an interest in taking pictures, but I didn't really know how, or like, I don't know. Hair and makeup was the main focus. So I, I just, it was always just kind of like, "oh, I'll try one day," but didn't really, you know, happen until the day after my father died. That's the first thing I grabbed. I went in his house downstairs and I picked up his cameras and I don't know, I just clinged to them so tightly. And when COVID happened, I just started practicing. I just started walking around and, you know, I just really was focusing on like, "how can I, as I grieve, this is a very heavy cloud that I'm facing." And I can't really see my way out. Everything is a blur. So I try to remind myself of like, God's creation. And I would go outside and take a picture of like the birds or whatever, just to keep that, even though I'm in this fog, but to keep that reminder that God's creation surrounding me, gives me comfort that God is with me in a way, if that makes sense, because grief is a very lonely road.

[00:12:04] And as far as the metal smithing-- I have an associates degree in fashion design and I really, I kind of did the dab, then did alterations for people and this and that, but that really wasn't-- I really wanted to be able to get my hands in like metal, like jewelry or whatever, wherever it would lead me. And so, you know, I, it took a while, but this, I just felt was the perfect time to enroll in a metal smithing class. I was always, if I go to trade shows, I would sit there and talk forever to people who made jewelry and I would just be so fascinated by it. And so, yeah, that's, I would always like sketch little jewelry pieces or cut out clippings of inspirations I liked, but I was just, I guess, waiting for the perfect timing to actually take a class or try it.

[00:13:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and like you were talking about earlier, you, you love helping women feel beautiful and confident. And so your business is kind of, you know, centered on that. But it, to me, it seems like that-- well, obviously as a makeup artist, that is an art role through and through, but it seems like even just taking care of, you know, whether that's a haircut or a facial or whatever, that's also kind of an art form in and of itself. I mean, I, I don't do those things, but I feel like that is absolutely the case. Do you, do you feel that way or is it kind of more like a little more routine for you on those kinds of things?

[00:13:45] Erica Johnson: No. I, I agree. I feel that it is a form of art. It it's always especially doing hair. Yes, because you don't, you, you're creating something and doing makeup or a facial. It's a, it's a canvas. You don't know what you're going to do until you're in front of the person, you know, and getting to know the person and not everything works on every person, but really taking that time. And I personally, I'm a personable person, so I like that one-on-one personal approach because it really, I can really see where the person's coming from and you can really just be in tune with them and know what may work and what doesn't work. If that makes sense.

[00:14:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that. And, and like you said, it's probably it's it's like improv every single time you get somebody for a haircut. Cause it's, you don't necessarily know until they arrive. How cool. That's kind of fun. Yeah. Maybe intimidating too. I mean, it would be for me.

[00:14:55] Erica Johnson: It can be at times.

[00:14:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness gracious. Yeah. Well, Yeah, I think that's also cool what you do, and I'd love to dive more into your photography because I know you have a specific sort of series that you've been working on and we can't wait to hear all about that.

[00:15:18] Erica Johnson: All right. So my, my final project of the progression of grief-- I basically, my first photo is just shattered, like in anger, just in anguish. It is inspired from back when my father first died. I got into a fight with a relative, my brother, and I was putting a mirror in the car and it cracked. And so I, for some reason, saved the mirror. And so it became my inspiration and I went ahead and just hit it and it just cracked. And I just basically reenacted the anger that I felt from the beginning with my eyeliner smeared, and I'm looking into the mirror, like as a, just a reflection of pain and just how lonely it feels, you know, where to turn because of the family dynamics and almost losing hope, if that makes any sense.

[00:16:16] My second image is just like the compounding of like, the tears have nowhere to go. It's, it's very heavy. Every time the phone rings or a text message comes, somebody has died, you know? And it's, it's like, I feel like I'm going to explode. And I'm alone. And the third image is just anxious anxiety. Because I feel like I am in utter despair and I'm at the end of my rope and I cannot take it anymore. And with that third picture, I did write a prayer in my grief journal of asking God to help me because I cannot cling to my own strength and I need support. And I do have a friend who was like a true answer to prayer. She, I managed to capture the photo with me and her walking. And she knows the suffering that I've gone through of loss and just different circumstances in her life. We, our lives seem to parallel. She had no idea what I was going through, but she managed to send me a message on Facebook right at that time when I had asked God about like, to send, like give me strength.

[00:17:35] So I was able to lean on her as another believer to kind of like carry me through as well as my support group as well. And with the support group and the support of her friendship, I was able, I'm able to look at my loved ones and look at those pictures as a sign of hope and the promise that I will see them again and really being thankful because they are, they were truly a gift, if that makes sense. And the time that they were here on the earth and just being thankful of my faith and the cross, because without the cross, I would not have the hope to see them again.

[00:18:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I, I'm so excited to see that project eventually. I hope I get to see it eventually, because I just think what you've captured is, is so impactful. And such a, it sounds like just a beautiful representation of, of grief, but yet hope. And I just, one of the things that I have admired so much about you is your unwavering hope. And even when it gets extraordinarily difficult and I can imagine there have been times when you've just felt so overwhelmed, but you continue to cling to truth and you continue to you, you don't give up, you continue to, to grow and learn and inspire. And I just think that that's, you're just amazing. You're so resilient. And I know it comes from your strong faith background. Well, I'm, I'm so excited, you know, for you and for this journey. And I know it's not, not a fun one necessarily, but I think what you're doing is, is so, like I said, inspiring. And, and so I'm just curious, do you-- obviously, obviously we're living in an odd time-- but are there future plans that you have as far as maybe, you know, continuing with the photography and metal work and or with your business? Do you have any sort of things that you're looking forward to?

[00:19:44] Erica Johnson: Yes. I, I mean, I, I'm open to wherever God is leading me because this is a new normal. So as I said earlier, I know that this pain is purposeful. I am hoping that it will form into a ministry and that hopefully I can be able to continue to express through arts and maybe it'll open doors. I'm not sure which doors, but open more doors hopefully into a ministry involving others and collaborating, whether it be that or having a online forum for people to, you know, read or see the pictures. Most importantly, my grief project was most real for me that it is okay to be broken. And I feel like in this society, we have to always appear like we have it all together and that's not, that's not really healing or helpful. So I'm hoping in the future that it would get the attention of other people that it is truly okay to be broken because that's where your healing comes.

[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. That's that's beautiful. Well, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who maybe are local, would love to help support your business and, or would just love to connect with you. Is there a way for them to do that?

[00:21:15] Erica Johnson: Yes. I, I have a website. That's probably the best way to get ahold of me because Facebook you're never going to, it's kind of hard to find there's so many Erica Johnsons. So my website is www.ericajohnsonhairandmakeup.com.

[00:21:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. And then there are a couple of questions that I love to ask my guests if you're up for that.

[00:21:43] Erica Johnson: Yes, yes. Sure, sure.

[00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So first of all, what is one change that you would love to see in the art world? I know an extremely broad question, but essentially what's one thing that you've noticed about could be about, you know, an industry that you're currently involved in, or maybe it's about, you know, what you witness as being maybe something to change, or essentially, what is one thing that you really would love to see be different about the art world?

[00:22:17] Erica Johnson: I, I think a lot of times you see the beginning of something, the middle of ,something or the end of something, but you don't see all together, like the growth, if that makes sense. So I would have to say maybe like in the arts, like the, the progression of growth and doesn't need to be perfect more or less being open to going with the flow. And being okay with if I started, if I had the idea in my head of this, but it's starting to look like this, being okay-- it being whatever it is supposed to be. Don't try to force it. Don't try to, if it's going like this, then go with the flow. If that makes sense. Because truly we are, I mean, to me, art reminds me of life. You think you're in control, but you're really not.

[00:23:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I absolutely agree. And then, is there are any particular art form that you have maybe always wanted to try, but haven't dabbled in yet, what would that art form be? What would you like to try next?

[00:23:36] Erica Johnson: I would like to try maybe ceramics. I just, I just think it would be fun and therapeutic-- just really, you know, clay and forming something. So, yeah.

[00:23:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that'd be a lot of fun and probably super challenging. Or at least for me it would be. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. And then my final question is at the end of your life, if you were to be able to witness or participate in one art experience for the last time, what would you choose?

[00:24:16] Erica Johnson: Hmm, the one art experience-- I would say probably photography. And I say that because the little short journey that I've had with playing with the camera, even before taking a class, the mini travels-- I just love capturing the image and more or less, you really-- it's all about light. And I love how it's all about light, because really when going out searching and taking photos and looking-- whatever you may capture, you're trying to get the light right. But also when you're looking through the lens, you're also seeing the light in others in whatever you're capturing. And I think that is a very beautiful thing because --I don't know --we're just all-- I don't know how to describe it basically, but I would have to say photography.

[00:25:18] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love your description of being able to see the light in people. And that's just beautiful. Well, thank you so very much for being here today. Like I said, you're very inspiring and I really appreciate just the, the light and the joy and the hope that you bring to the world. And you do you do it with so much grace and style, despite, you know, the things that are difficult. And I think you're just a shining example of the light and of truth. And I just want to commend you for that and say thank you and say, you know, again, thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:25:57] Erica Johnson: Yes, of course. Thank you. And thank you for being a blessing to others. This is truly beautiful. So thank you.

[00:26:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you so much to everybody who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:26:18] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Hannah Biggs! Hannah is primarily a mosiac artist who also draws coloring pages and has self-published two comic coloring books for kids. She talks about the process of being given the inspiration for her largest mosiac project to date, along with its design and creation, as well as about a really impactful experience she had witnessing art used in an Orthodox church. Part of the profits from all her sold art go towards supporting missions and charity projects around the world. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of the mosaic Hannah talks about in this episode!)

Get in touch with Hannah Biggs: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063717901468 | https://www.facebook.com/wanderlustcedarville

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 079 - Hannah Biggs

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Hannah Biggs. Hannah is a mosaic artist, maybe primarily, but that barely scratches the surface of all the cool things that she is and does. And, full disclosure-- I'm so excited especially to have Hannah here because she is one of my lovely cousins and it's so much fun to see all the art in our family. It's just so cool to see how we all kind of branched out into little different artistic endeavors. So, Hannah, thank you so much for being here today. I'm thrilled to talk to you.

[00:01:16] Hannah Biggs: Thanks for having me.

[00:01:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you interested in art in the first place and sort of how that has changed and evolved over time? Because I know you've had a lot of really cool opportunities, especially, and I just love to hear all about it.

[00:01:39] Hannah Biggs: I don't remember a time in my life I've not been interested in art. As a kid, my mom would print out a list of all of the ways you could enter art at the county fair. And she would tell us that we had to do a certain number of them from the different categories in order for us to like pass art for our homeschool. So I tried a lot of different medium and it's just always been a part of my life.

[00:02:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, that's great. I did not know that. That's hilarious. Actually, I can picture that. So I'm curious-- I guess I'm not familiar with that-- so, so what kinds of artistic things did you try? I mean, you said you tried a lot, but I'm just curious -- does any of them particularly stand out as being like, you know, "oh, I, I loved that project and you know, it was important to me because."

[00:02:29] Hannah Biggs: Probably not. They all happen when I was pretty young. I guess the thing I liked most was just trying all the different things. And as a child, if you're the only person entered in a certain category, you automatically get the blue ribbon. So.

[00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. That's hilarious. Well, yeah. And of course that's exciting, you know, obviously as a kid, I'm sure it'd be just as exciting as an adult to be like, "yes, I'll take it and run." Oh, awesome. Okay. So you don't really remember a time when art wasn't a part of your life, but I do know that as an adult, you've probably developed further into skillsets. And granted you're a wife and a mother and you have lots going on. So I'd just love to hear about how that your artistic endeavors have changed over the years and like over time, how has that evolved?

[00:03:19] Hannah Biggs: Okay. In high school I got into poetry. And then in college I started doing a lot of drawings. And then when I had kids, I did a lot more sewing and, you know, made them like costumes and stuff. And then my pastor's daughter at my church is a stain glass artist and she's phenomenal. And I mean, glass is just so pretty. So I asked her if she would teach me how to do it. And I went over to her house one day and she was showing me some of the basics, but we didn't have time to do the whole project. And as I'm walking out the door, she asked if I was interested in mosaics and I have always loved the look of them, but I've never done them. And so that's what I told her. And she's like, "would you be interested in trying?" Like "yes, of course." So she hands me like a box full of supplies tells me that she has tried it and doesn't want to do it anymore. And since she does stained glass, she always has all these scraps laying around that she doesn't know how to get rid of. And so she just kind of sent me out the door with a list of instructions and didn't show me how to do anything. And I went home and tried it and fell in love and never looked back.

[00:04:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's awesome. I love that, you know, one artistic endeavor can inspire a new one. You know, you and her that such a complimentary set of things. That's so cool. And yeah, stained glass is the most beautiful thing ever. That's one of my artistic, you know, would love to try in the future. But okay, so you started doing mosaic work and what kinds of projects have you done with it? I mean, I, I, I have a little bit of a sneak peek, so I get the behind the scenes a little bit, but I'd still love to hear your journey because if I'm not incorrect, you've recently finished a pretty major mosaic project. Is that true?

[00:05:15] Hannah Biggs: So the most recent, I should say the largest project I have ever done was a project I did for my church two and a half years in the making. I was actually working on a different project and I was also reading in Revelation at the same time. And I, I swear God spoke to me and gave me the inspiration for this because there's no way I could've come up with it on my own. But in Revelation chapter four, it talks about the throne room of God and how behind the throne there's a rainbow, like an emerald kind of radiating out from the throne. And so the picture is seven arcs of the green rainbow and three worshipers in different poses of adoration, and the bottom there's like the streets of gold. But the really cool part is that each arc of the rainbow represents a character trait of God. And the gold foundation has 12 large stones each surrounded by 12 small stones. And the 12 big ones represent both the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and the 144 little ones is symbolic of the prophet. There's a verse that talks about our faith being founded on the apostles and the prophets and teaching and stuff. And so there's just a lot of symbology in there and it's now in my church.

[00:06:50] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. That's so cool. What a, what a beautiful vision and a representation. I think, I mean, I love art for so many reasons, but I think that is just, it takes it to a new level, right? When you have a very particular inspiration that, you know, is divine. I mean, yeah. Like you said, it's not from you and so, and so you were able to bring this to life and show especially God's character. I liked that idea of, you know, that being incorporated in the mosaic of like, this is that interpretation and you do that through just a really beautiful medium. So, okay. So two and a half years in the making. So how, how big is it actually? Let's start there.

[00:07:36] Hannah Biggs: It's, it's two feet by two feet. I wasn't working on the glass part for two years, but the design of it has been in process for two years. But the actual glasswork itself took seven months.

[00:07:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Still substantial. And so when you go, yeah, no, I, I mean, for sure. So because I'm not a mosaic artist, so this is, you know, really interesting to me is of course you have to design it first. So when you first got this vision or this, you know, idea, was it like crystal clear exactly what you were supposed to represent or did it take a lot of sort of tweaking of the design over time to, to get it to a point where you thought, "Okay, this is in line with what I had this vision?"

[00:08:24] Hannah Biggs: So when I, when I first had the idea and I sketched it out, it was mostly like the people in the colors and that hasn't changed. Like that part itself has looked exactly the same since the beginning. But the arcs and their symbols has taken more tweaking, trying to figure out how best-- like which, which stories have the, the simplest symbology what character traits of God are. So I broke up the arcs into, I guess, three categories. So the center arc has Hebrew in it actually. And it's the name of God. So it says I Am that I Am, and on the three arcs closer to the throne are who God is without us. So God is infinitely sovereign. God is omniscient, all knowing, orderly-- that's one category.

[00:09:28] And then I learned a new theological word called aseity, which means that God is complete within himself. He doesn't need anything from anyone. And so I did a braid for that one to represent the Trinity and his aseity, that like who He is all His different parts. Like He is complete and He all works together with himself. And then the three closer to the worshipers is who God is to us. So there's He is creator God, He is faithful. And He is just so trying to figure out how, how to best represent those things has been a lot of, a lot more planning, I guess.

[00:10:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes sense. And, you know, I would think it's a lot different creating a piece of art, quote-unquote, has a higher purpose then. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating a super whimsical mosaic, right? But there's a totally different level of responsibility, I feel like?

[00:10:33] Hannah Biggs: Yes.

[00:10:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? That you kind of feel when you're doing something like that. So that's, that's cool. Like, I'm so glad that you spent the time and, you know, and did your research clearly and dug in and weren't just like, "here's the thing." And, you know, I think it's cool what you did, so that's awesome. But I know that you, that's not where you stopped. So can you tell us about, what's kind of exciting next for you in this realm?

[00:11:03] Hannah Biggs: So, I joined a shop. There's a little-- I don't know if art collective art shop-- is the right term right here in Cedarville called Wanderlust. And-- a bunch of artists gives the wrong impression, although not on this podcast-- they're, they're makers of things. So there's, I believe there's 10 of us right now. You know, there's, there's a lady who does like honey and homegrown tea and there's me and I have my mosaics, but I also have my comic books and scripture coloring pages there. And there's a lady who does jewelry and the, the whole point of the shop is that all of the things there are unique. They're homemade and they're local to us in Ohio. And it's like, there's, there's all sorts of crazy cool stuff there. And none of the, none of the artists compete. So like I come in bringing all of my following and they bring their following and we all joined together and we are all part owners in the shop. So basically all I have to do every month is pay rent and I can have as much or as little art there as I want. And like me simply being there benefits everyone else and everyone else being their benefits me. It's, it's been really great.

[00:12:29] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. And that's such a cool concept too. And like you said, you can, you can all bring your following, so to speak, your fans, but then, then they get the opportunity to see everybody else's work and vice versa. So it's a great way to expand your audience and people you wouldn't ordinarily get in front of necessarily without spending an arm and a leg and advertising or whatever it is. So that's great. And you touched on something that I would absolutely love to delve into more. So you talked about your coloring books, so please share all about that and what it's like to publish something like that. And I mean, what an endeavor.

[00:13:05] Hannah Biggs: So they're, they're not, they're not like published, published. They're, they're, self-published.

[00:13:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Still!

[00:13:10] Hannah Biggs: It's still really cool.

[00:13:11] Lindsey Dinneen: It's still real, like you have this physical product you created it in your hands. It's still super cool.

[00:13:16] Hannah Biggs: So I've always wanted to do in October where you have the 31 prompts put out by Jake Parker and you draw something every day and then you ink it and it's done. But the first year I tried it, the word list was amazing and it had like dragon and legendary. And I forget what the other one was, but like adventure words. And then it had things like coat and snow and cold, and I'm like, "Well, clearly this is an adventure that happened in winter." Like, there's a story half written, but I'm not very good at writing stories. So I asked my husband, "Okay. We could somehow loosely tie the words together and like make a, make a story and just have like one picture per page and like one sentence per page, no big deal." And he comes back to me with like people talking for the first day and I'm like, " Is this a comic? Am I drawing a comic book?" And he was like, "Sure, why not?" There was not a lot of forethought that went into this, the first one anyway. But it was so much fun and it's a hilarious story. And you basically, what I ended up with was a coloring, a comic book that you can color yourself. So, you know, you can buy a comic book and you also get a coloring book. And when you're done with it, you have a comic book that's all colored in your favorite colors with lots of cute little animals doing crazy things on an adventure with treasure and dragons.

[00:14:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome.

[00:14:55] Hannah Biggs: And then the following year, a good friend of mine-- she writes, she writes short stories and I gave her the prompt list and within four hours she had like a fully written out story for me.

[00:15:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:15:09] Hannah Biggs: So that one's, that one's a lot more cohesive-- a little, a little less fanatic, but it's still fun with a lot of great faces. Yeah.

[00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I love that too, because you know, one of the things that I personally enjoy so much about the arts is the collaboration aspect, right? So you might not feel that either you're inspired to write something or that it's, you know, that that's maybe not your area of expertise or strength, but, but you have these other people that you know, that that is great for them and, you know, maybe they don't draw. And so to put these things together is always so cool. I just, I love the collaborative nature of arts and how one thing complements the other. So that's super cool. Well, awesome. And so those are also for sale at that shop, if people are interested in purchasing those or any of your work, do you also have a way for them to do so online? Say if they're not local or how to connect with you?

[00:16:12] Hannah Biggs: Yes. They can either do it through the Wanderlust Cedarville page or through my Broken and Made New page on Facebook.

[00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, I'm curious, are there any particular stories that come to mind of these really impactful moments to remember when it comes to the arts? Either maybe you witnessed an art form or experience that really moved you, or you even witnessed somebody else witnessing your own art. And that it was some moment to remember, like, does, does anything come to mind as far as that goes?

[00:16:47] Hannah Biggs: I mean, anytime someone would come in and see the Revelation mosaic in process or afterwards, that's always been really cool to watch, because again, I know it's not me that they're excited about. I know it's that they're seeing a little tiny piece of the beauty of God. But I think the most impactful experience I have ever had with art was actually at an Orthodox church. My sister-in-law and her husband are Greek Orthodox. Let me back up. When I went to college at Spring Arbor University in Michigan, I took a bunch of classes, like Bible classes. And for one of them, we had to experience worship in some other form, other than the traditional like Baptist church. And a group of people wanted to try an Orthodox church. And there was a Russian Orthodox church nearby. And I went with them and it like on the outside, it was this like little white barn in the middle of absolutely nowhere.

[00:17:57] And I walked in and it was so beautiful. You could feel, like tangibly feel, the holiness of God and, and how much they revered Him. That's not something you get in a regular church or, I mean, the kind of church that I go to, it's much more practical. But like they had this like lush red carpet and icons on every single wall with like the gold borders and rich colors and detailing the life of Christ and the like notable stories from the Bible. And at the front of the chapel there were these--they have some special name for them-- but they're, they're almost like the dressing curtains like the, the metal ones that you stand up and you get dressed behind. I'm forgetting the name of them, but they're all made out of gold intertwined. And like, it was just gorgeous.

[00:19:06] So that was my first experience with an Orthodox church. And that one was a Russian one and they're a little bit more on the conservative side where like all the women wear head coverings and stuff. But it like that in itself made a really big impact on me. And I was talking with my sister-in-law and her husband about Easter in the Orthodox tradition, and they told me that they do the 40 days of Lent. And that their Good Friday service is really important. And so I went to a Good Friday service here in Ohio. And you, you walk in and everyone is dressed in black ,and colors are a really big deal to me. And, you know, so that already sets the tone and the church's kind of dark. And as they're going through the service, at one point the priest and some of the elders or whatever their official titles are, they pick up this shroud that represents the body of Christ and somebody is waving incense and the, the priest is holding the Bible and these people, there's four of them holding the shroud and they start walking down the side aisle of the church and everyone is singing this really solemn hymn.

[00:20:34] And we walk out of the church and we're walking around the parking lot and I just suddenly saw, "Wait a minute, everyone's dressed in black and there's like pallbearers and the body of Christ and like, oh my goodness. I'm at a real funeral." Like they're not messing around here. Like Jesus died. And like, it just hit me, like Good Friday has never hit me before. But then they, the pallbearers stand on either side of the doorway to go back into the church. And they hold the shroud above their heads and you have to pass under the body of Christ in order to get back into the church, which was really cool. And then once everyone came back inside and sat down, the pallbearers bring the shroud in and they lay the body of Christ, the shroud, on the alter, like they're putting him in the tomb and then it's done. Like the service ends and you have to go home. And like, I just started weeping. Like He died and I have to leave. Like, I don't want to leave. Like I want to wait for Easter. Yeah.

[00:21:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:21:50] Hannah Biggs: Pictures are important.

[00:21:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I mean, obviously that spoke to you in a completely different way 'cause it was, it was so immersive that it was almost like you were experiencing it firsthand versus reading about it. And that of course makes an impact, but not as if you were experiencing it. So that's amazing. Oh, wow. Plus, I mean, I, I definitely relate to the churches that are more Orthodox or, you know, in Europe, for instance, there's so many of these gorgeous, just stunning architecture and there is a difference. Like you walk into them and I mean, I suppose your brain could go two ways, right? It could be either like, "Oh my gosh, it's so lavish." Or you could go, "Okay. But this is honoring the majesty of God the way that they have chosen to decorate it and you know who He is." And that's a really cool thing that they do care so much that they put so much into, you know, the beauty and the majesty of the church. So yeah, I can totally relate to that. That's, that's really powerful. That's really cool. Well, thank you for sharing that. That was a fantastic story. I do have a couple questions that I would love to ask you about art. So my first question is, what would change would you like to see in the art world? So that can be super broad or super specific based on your own experience. But if there's one change that you could see happen in the art world, what change would you love to see?

[00:23:29] Hannah Biggs: Wow. I have no idea. I guess probably more along the lines of what we were just talking about, where art is in the church, more like all art in all of its forms.

[00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then is there something arts related that you've always wanted to try, but haven't yet either because of life circumstances or because maybe it would take another layer of courage, but you want to do it someday?

[00:24:06] Hannah Biggs: Does just started to try count?

[00:24:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:24:10] Hannah Biggs: I just started learning to play the cello.

[00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome.

[00:24:13] Hannah Biggs: I wanted to do that since I was eight. It's going to be a really long process.

[00:24:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. Congrats. I mean, that's, that's so cool that you're picking that up. I love it. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's the one art related experience you would want to experience again for the last time?

[00:24:35] Hannah Biggs: Wow. I have no idea. I'm hoping to have a lot of art experiences between now and then. As you experience art, you take your own life experience into it with you and so the art that I see now is very different than the art I see as a child, even if it's the same exact piece, because I carry all of my life experience with me into understanding it. And my guess is that as I get older and experience art, I will appreciate it more than I'm currently appreciating art. And I will be more excited to see those pieces again, because they will mean more to me then than anything means to me right now, but I could be wrong.

[00:25:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I absolutely love that answer. That was very thoughtful. And I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. The way that we view art from even one year to the next can change radically based on our life in that year. Yeah, I love that. That's such a great perspective. Well, Hannah, this has been an absolute pleasure to have you as my guest. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for what you contribute to the world. I love the fact that you are fully engaging in multiple different art mediums and bring beauty and a little glimpse of divinity into the world. I think that that's really special and impactful. So thanks for doing that. And, and thanks for being here. This has been great.

[00:26:20] Hannah Biggs: Oh, thank you. I'm, I had a lot of fun. There, there was one other thing that's part of the shop that you might want to know about. So I have been redoing the third through sixth grade book for Awana. And so I have been doing scripture coloring pages that are geared more towards older people. And that might be getting for real published at some point next year.

[00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Sneak peak, everyone! You heard it here first. That is super cool. Well, goodness, I can't wait to learn about that journey and how all that goes, but how cool. Congrats, that's just super exciting.

[00:27:00] Hannah Biggs: And some of those are available at the, at the shop.

[00:27:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Great. That's very, very cool. Well, thanks again so much for being here and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:27:24] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I have compiled some of our more recent guests' answers to the question, "What is the most important role of an artist?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part two of this series with you today. Enjoy!

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Episode 78 - "What's the Most Important Role of an Artist? - Part 2

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world."

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: "It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough."

[00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful."

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to be bringing you another special episode today. We are going to explore all of the different answers to the question, "what's the most important role of an artist?" Over the last year and a half I have gotten to ask that question of so many artists and guests that have been on my show. And I absolutely love hearing people's perspective on this question. So I'm excited to bring it all together for you in this special episode that I hope you thoroughly enjoy.

[00:01:11] Mike Huerter: Probably just be true to yourself. You know, you, you can't fake art. It's, I mean, yeah, I'm portraying a role in something, and I guess people would maybe think that's fake, but for me, I want to do it to the very best of my ability. I want people to--when they, when they look and see me doing something, they don't see me, they see the person or, you know, that I'm trying to portray.

[00:01:38] Gregg Gonzales: I think, I think it's to delight. Truly, I think it's to delight those, whether that delight can be in the form of, "I appreciate it. I think it's garbage. I think it's the greatest thing ever." I think it's to gain, to get a response from the people who are experiencing the art, whether it be music, whether it be a painting, whether it be a book. You want a response. You want, you want them to feel something. So to me as an artist, I want my people to, or I want the people who are experiencing my work to feel something. I know that sounds very general, but to me, it's about feeling.

[00:02:23] Jami Robben: I would say the most important role is probably sharing your gifts with others, just to again, make them happy. I think a lot of times are sometimes can be, you know, just kept to yourself if you're scared of showing other people. But the best thing you could do as an artist is share it and inspire others with it.

[00:02:44] JaJa Smith: To be honest, because we as people have dealt with enough bologna sandwich that, you know, it doesn't do anything for anyone, if you're just doing something for the sake of the adoration or the sake of a finished product. But if you're true and you're intentional and you're authentic, I mean, that is the product that people can truly get on board with. You know, I think that that is to not just to people, but also to the work itself, and then to the artists, because there have been a few times I may have flubbed or played it safer. And then, you know, I stepped back and the scene is over and, you know, I was just like, "What are you doing?" Like you, you know that you cheated yourself and you're like, "Why did I do that?" So the biggest thing to me is just be honest, be authentic with your work and everything that you do. You know, I don't see any need to talk about things that you don't understand. You know, like if, if you're a music artist, that's like, you know, tell your story. You know, you have a story. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's yours and it deserves to be told.

[00:03:49] Darnell Benjamin: I think the number one rule for an artist is to be honest. I think that, to be honest, whatever that means, to be honest.

[00:03:59] Emily Moores: I think that there are a lot of different kinds of roles for different kinds of artists. Like some artists have you reflect on, you know, historical events or connect you to maybe an idea or group of people that you wouldn't have a connection with. And I guess in any situation, whether, you know, like if I'm just creating artwork to be playful, I'm still creating a connection to this like physical, tangible object existing in space. And so for me, I would say artists create connections where we maybe haven't thought about them previously.

[00:04:39] Harlem Lennox: To be themselves and to be truthful about what it is that they are trying to convey, whatever it is, no matter how dark you might feel that it is, or no matter how light it is, because it just-- I feel like if you can feel something and you can get something, some type of meaning from whatever it is, then it is art. And so if you are making, whether it's a piece of music or painting, if you're dancing, whatever it is, if it has meaning, and it is true to you, then I think that is the response. That is the responsibility of an artist. I don't want an artist who tries to be the next whomever. I don't want an artist who, okay, what is everybody liking right now? Let me try to create that. And I understand that people got to do what they got to do to get where they're trying to go. And so maybe they start off that way because they're still learning. But when you get to a point where you're confident enough and brave enough to be able to produce your own work, your own truth, whatever is in your soul, then I definitely think that that people have a responsibility to bring themselves to the art world, because like I said, we need it. We don't need another Van Gogh. He's here. He did his thing. Thank you Van. But I want to see another whomever it is: Brittany, Sam, you know, Godfrey, whoever. Bring me your art, bring me your truth. Or else it doesn't mean anything.

[00:06:23] Christina Stanton: It's to tell their truth, because we all are having such different experiences in this world that what you want is that somebody is expressing your experience somewhere in art, doing something. And you just want to connect with art that's expressing your particular experience that you're having on this planet and is sharing your human experience. And so I just think artists should be telling their truth of how they're viewing the world and their experience, because there's going to be people out there that can relate and want to relate and want that comradery, and wants somebody to quote unquote, "understand them," but I just feel like it's a shared experience. So it's a story that, that can be shared with several people. We're not all having the same experience, but there are people out there who are having, you know, the same struggles, and the same highs and lows and joys. And they're looking at life in the world and God, and in the same way, do you want to connect to art that is speaking to you personally.

[00:07:33] Jeffrey Holst: I think that artists bring perspective to everything. If we didn't have artists, our world would be very boring. So I think perspective and entertainment are probably the two things that are most important.

[00:07:49] Lucas Zellers: The role of an artist is to tell us what to think about. And I think my experience with monsters and the study of them and sort of the practical use of monster theory is that art gives us a way of saying things that we couldn't say, or feeling things that we couldn't feel or experiencing things that we had no other way to experience.

[00:08:13] Kristin Beale: The important role: to entertain and not to entertain others for that is a big plus, but to entertain yourself, to keep yourself happy to stay while you're doing it for it to be a good, you know, way to keep yourself happy. And, you know, it's a major plus if it can bring happiness to other people too.

[00:08:34] Doug Motel: Well, I think the, the role of the artist is to lead us in our evolution. I think that you know, Darwin pointed out that we evolved from creatures in the sea, you know, we keep evolving and I think that there's an assumption that evolution is just kind of like on autopilot, but I don't. I believe that we could actually hasten the pace of our evolution. We can you know steer and direct our evolution and the ones that do that are the artists. So the role of the artist is nothing short of saving humanity.

[00:09:15] Gloria Grace Rand: Well, the most important role-- I think it's just being true to who you are and to trust yourself to be able to communicate whatever it is that you want to communicate. Because if you're going about doing something in the arts to please someone else, it's not really ultimately going to be successful. I think you've gotta be able to do whatever it is from your heart to really be able to please yourself. And it may not please everybody. And that's okay. But as long as you are conveying what you want to convey from your heart, then it is going to touch someone else's heart.

[00:09:58] Donna Kay Yarborough: There are many different roles that people have depending on their abilities and what their focus is. So like I mentioned earlier, some people just want to bring joy into the world. And I think that is lovely. Joy is defined on many different levels and that can be a pure focus in me. I I flavor joy on top of a baseline of perspective. I am ever the educator, even though I am not officially teaching in a classroom, my goal is to always teach in some manner or another. So making this tasty nugget of learning I think is how I function. And a lot of people out there function, there's other things you can do. Sometimes you just want to make a pretty thing, or sometimes you just want to decorate. And that again is very, very valuable in this world, but mine is teaching.

[00:10:59] Christopher John Garcia: To make art. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to, I think. Wanting an artist to be a philosopher, a spokesman, any of that? Really not as important as the fact that they just create the work.

[00:11:16] Jeff Leisawitz: To authentically create. I mean, that's it. So you create with the truth of their experience, whatever that is. It's not about building skills, although that's great if you do, right? I mean, you look at it again and in music, punk rock, you know, the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and, you know, bands like that, they sucked as musicians, but you could feel it, right? They were putting their heart and truth into the music and that's why it resonated so much.

[00:11:50] Shawn Kilgore: To keep it alive, to keep it going.

[00:11:53] Natalie Cordone: I think for me, it's to tell the truth, whatever your truth is in that moment, to be vulnerable enough, to be honest, in a way where you are sharing something real, sharing a piece of yourself with people that you might never meet or really get to know.

[00:12:13] Corry MacDonald: Oh, artists are the way-showers. Most of us are stuck in our, our brains, myself included. Why do you think I share this? I have to learn what I'm sharing. So the artists seem to know that when they go into that flow state, when they go into that still point inside and bring something into the world that was never seen before, that they're dovetailing with all of life, with consciousness itself. And so they show those who've never gone there before what's possible, and they bring something new to form, which is sheer magic.

[00:12:48] Sandy Rodriguez: I think that they're --okay-- it has two types of importance. One would be important for oneself. I think that as an artist, the importance of art to yourself would be allowing you to express feelings and modify them, so it's something that is both a source of expression and also a source of comfort to yourself as an artist, I think. But as to society or more as a whole, I think that, firstly, it can make society better by adding more beauty to everyday lives, but it can also shine a light on things that might be social ills or social problems. So it's simply another way of communicating. As a journalist, as a former newspaper editor, I would say that the role of art is not entirely different from the role of any other form of media. You can either shine a light on problems or spread the word on something that is beautiful, spread the word about something that is fascinating, bring more beauty to the world.

[00:13:53] Sabrina Osso: It goes back to freedom to liberate. I like that word that you used during our interview: to, to liberate, liberate all emotions, whether it be happiness, sadness, anger. It could be, yeah, sadness, happiness, joy, liberation of all emotions, because once you release it, then you can get to the next level. So, yeah, liberation, I would say.

[00:14:24] Anthony Saldana: Tell the truth. Just tell your own truth and also try to find your own. I know that stories have been told and retold, but try to find your own angle to, to put your own expression on, on a different take on a story. But I, I really believe in, in being honest in your work.

[00:14:47] Jason Figueira: I think persistence is also something very important for an artist to have, because when you have a passion to tell a story, you don't give up telling it. There are a lot of obstacles that come up in any different kind-- dancing, whether it's painting, whether it's film or so many things that come up in your way. But as long as you have your passion to tell a story, you will overcome those obstacles. And I'd say, you know, there's an expression: a genius is 90% hard work and 10% ideas. So really it's about how much work you put into it. So I would say persistence is absolutely key for an artist to have, is absolutely a key quality rather, for an artist to have.

[00:15:30] Sharon Glassman: I think if you truly believe it, see it, want to share it. That I think is probably what makes art, art. There's something there that's just intrinsically real.

[00:15:47] Christopher Boorman: Well, for me, the role of an artist is to share their art. It's to share with other people how they see the world, to share how they feel about the human experience. I hate to sound trite, but I'm reminded of that question, "If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around, does it make a sound? So if you're creating art and you don't share it, then are you really an artist? You, you might have a hobby and that's just fine. You can make art for yourself. But I think for it to be art in its truest form, to be an artist, art needs to be shared, it needs to be enjoyed.

[00:16:31] Bryan Colley: Well, that's a, that's a tricky question. I mean, I think the role of the artist is to, to offer ideas to the world and hopefully they can offer an idea. No one's thought of before. And of course, you know, everyone is born ignorant, so everyone experiences new ideas all the time in the, in the course of their life. It's not like there's this one set of ideas everybody knows. Everyone has a different experience. So, so everyone has a way to experience art and some people gain something from it and other people don't because maybe they've already experienced that or, or they don't understand it, you know? So, so you need a wide field of art out there because there's just different art for each person.

[00:17:17] So you go through life learning things. You get an education, you read books, you, you know-- I'm a media junkie. I watch films and I listen to music, you know, it's consume, consume, consume. And I think at some point you want to contribute to that or you want to give back and it's like, "Well, I've learned all this for what reason?" It's like, so that I can take my experience and my knowledge and offer my ideas or my observations on that. So that's where art comes into play, I think. And I think it's something everyone can participate in. It's not just for professionals. Everyone can be an artist and offer something to the world.

[00:18:01] Jessie Katz Greenberg: I think that it's just to share your perspective, whatever it is. And, and again, I mean, you'll, this might be very obvious from the way I've answered, I'm answering these questions, but I just feel like, you know, art is for everyone. So I just think the most important role is to share your perspective. And if that perspective is, you know, something deep that people have to think about, or if you're making an important political commentary or you're, you know, making things because it's cute and your perspective as you want to cheer people up and make them happy. And that's the point of it then. All of that is valid. So I think it's just sharing your perspective, whatever that is.

[00:18:42] Patricia Karen Gage: I think it's liberation, freedom, total expression, and to help shift the misconceptions of, of reality. And it's an opportunity to interpret whatever it is that you, as a human being are here, are here in your own path to experience. And yeah, it's, it's the artist journey.

[00:19:09] Sally Brown: I think to express themselves and make their voices heard because we're, we're documenting life in a creative way for history. So just continuing to do it and using their voice in different ways is just, is the most important role for them. So, yeah, just doing it.

[00:19:28] Will Blaine: I know that artists do different things. I think that many artists like to make political statements and, and things like that, but I, I don't think that's the most important rule or role. I think that that artists should do it for themselves primarily. I, I've, I've seen people that are artists that want to become famous. I don't particularly want that myself. I, I mean, I don't, I never desired to be famous. I just like entertaining kids, basically. But I think that a person needs to do it as a, as a way of expressing themselves. That's the most important thing above everything else.

[00:20:02] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So my instinctive response to that is leeriness, because I, first of all, I obviously do believe that there is an important role for artists. I'm a professional artist. It's, it's something I've devoted a huge portion of my life to. It's my passion. I am always a little fearful that there's a danger because we've all known that sort of the artist with the sort of messianic complex, you know, the idea that I'm creating something because I believe it's important. And this approach generally creates art that is not that enjoyable. And I'm, I'm resistant to that. That said, I do believe that art is important, but I, I tend to flinch from that as a starting place for making something. But if I had to say, what is the role of art? Again, the first thing that leaps into my mind is, it's to provide a kind of fun house mirror. It's to provide a reflection of reality that distorts it in some way or shifts our focus onto a specific aspect of it.

[00:21:14] Aunia Kahn: The most important role of an artist is to not worry about what everybody thinks. The most important role of an artist is to do what they want to do in, in themselves, what feels right for them and to not cater to anybody else. Unless of course they're catering for a reason, like I said you know, a minute ago, like, you know, I want to sell my work and I know this kind of stuff sells, and this is what I'm creating, because I know I can make a dollar and pay my bills. That's great. You know, but I-- the role of an artist is to be who they want to-- I think the role of anybody, I think the role of an artist is the role of anybody, really, to be who you want to be without explaining yourself. Of course, unless you're harming people, that's a whole other thing, but, you know, be who you want to be, express how you want to express, live how you want to live, without the expectations and pressures of society and other people. That's how I feel artists and people not should-- cause I don't like the word should-- but would benefit in living life, being free, free of, free of all of that, to just be what you want to be, do what you want to do. Say what you want to say.

[00:22:31] Justin Alcala: The most important part is communicate and inspire. If you have to find a fundamental way to connect to someone through your medium, and once you communicate with them, you inspire them to take what you said and make it their own. And for books, any characters' story, once I get it out in the world, it was no longer my story. It is the reader's story. What they think is far more important about the protagonist /antagonist, the plot than anything that I've dreamed up, it is their world to be inspired and kind of take it into their own lives and contribute.

[00:23:05] Natsune Oki: Artists are the key player in terms of creating something new and creating a future of a future. Like it really like, you know, until now it's it was an engineer, but because now we've built some infrastructures for people to be more creative, possibility is unlimited, like with the artists combined with technology, like it's, it's going to be like crazy. Like it's going to be our future.

[00:23:33] Rachel Moore: I know it's kind of a, that's been kind of a weird idea lately --the truth, but I think to shine a light on things that maybe for various reasons, society or people have said, you know, we can't look at this to shine a light in a way that is accessible. I think that if we just like, you know, shove things in people's faces like, eh, that's not really doing the job of art in my opinion. To invite people to see things differently, that's what I think the role of an artist.

[00:24:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I hope you enjoyed all of the answers to the question. What's the most important role of an artist. As you can tell, we have such a diverse group of guests who have come through the show and it's been so much fun to hear their perspectives on some of these really interesting questions that lead us to think deeper about different aspects of art. So thank you for joining me. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:24:35] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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Episode 77 - "What's the Most Important Role of an Artist?" - Part 1

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world."

[00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful."

[00:01:11] Ashley Taylor: I wrote about this one time and I'm going to try to summarize what I said. I believe that the role of an artist is to observe. Observe and express. So observation is a very important part of-- if you're the landscape painter, you have to spend a lot of time looking at the landscape that you're going to paint. And you have to observe the details in ways that you may not ordinarily if you're just looking at this picture, but trying to put it down on paper, you have to consider all of this at great detail. And so a metaphor that I love is -- as an artist drawing or painting or doing something visual like this, you have to always ask, "Where are the shadows in what I'm drawing, where the shadow is falling?" And that tells you: "Where is the light and where's the light coming from to cast these shadows?" and so when I expand that into sort of a metaphor for what the artist is doing, I think, I think that's what we are supposed to be doing personally is like, okay, I'm looking at life or I'm looking at the situation. Where are the shadows? Where are the dark things, the bad things?

[00:02:24] Right? But then if, if these are the shadows, okay, there's gotta be light coming from somewhere because shadows don't exist without light. I mean, if there was no light, you'd be looking at a blank black piece of paper. And we all know life is more than that . Anyway, so all that to say, I think the role of the artist is to say, "Where's the darkness, where are the shadows, where's the light? How do I represent both fairly?" And then let you draw your own conclusions. Like I can infuse my conclusions into what I make. But in the end, art is up for interpretation. It's usually subjective. And so, you may look at my story. And say, " well, the darkness is way more important than the light there. The shadows, you know, outweigh the light in this." But somebody else might say, "wow, look at the way the sun is shining." So that's what I would say to be a careful observer of the world and to draw out where the good things are as well as the bad.

[00:03:30] Bryant Williams: Artists needs to be truly authentic. You know, in this day and age, you know, whether people like that or not, it's--art is subjective--and be authentically you.

[00:03:40] Krista Eyler: I think artists help people in the world, see things in a different way. I think I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. I mean, what would we do without, you know, the great playwrights who have shown us corners of the world that I will never see or make music from different countries that I, I didn't grow up in that tradition, so I would never have heard it. I mean, an artist's job is to enrich life for others. I don't, I mean, I inherently, I think the creation of art is kind of selfish because we have to, it comes from our brain, comes from our hand.

[00:04:25] We're very happy or sad with it. But I really think art is, for me--it's so cliche--but art is for everyone, and artists need to create for people out in the world who are non-artists, so they can see a different perspective of the world--they can hear something, see something, do something different that will be better and change, possibly even change your mind and then change how you operate in your daily life. I mean, that is a profoundly important thing that art can do is change how people think. And I mean, that's powerful. It's very powerful.

[00:05:02] Rick Wright: You know, I think there's some responsibilities that the artists have. I think honesty and, personal, personal perspectives. I think there's things that happen in this world that we need artists, creatives, performers to react to, to communicate about, guide, challenge. I think that's one of the more important jobs right now. There are brilliant, passionate artists out there that are that are making a difference. And I think that's super important. And I'll be honest that I don't necessarily think my own work is challenging any norms in society, per se, but I think those that are out there doing that really have my, my respect and I, I value that we all have a duty just to be honest with ourselves and you don't have to put up a front, you know, just be, be the person you are, do the work that you want to do and put it out there. You can choose how much of yourself to put out there. I mean maybe you're a little bit conservative by nature and that's fine, but you know, just those, those little, little pieces of truth are, are valuable.

[00:06:15] Roman Mykyta: I think the most important role of an artist is to be truthful about reality and how they see it. And along with that, to be honest, that opens up a lot of different doors, whether being truthful and honest is being very joyful and expressing the beauty in life, or it can be expressing the pain that we all feel, and then the way you treat that, whether it's with humor, with seriousness or drama, I feel like there's a place for all of those things. I'm sensitive personally about not overloading audience with what's negative.

[00:06:52] It's really important to be honest, to be raw and to express pain, honestly, but in a way, I feel like we are so inundated by bad news, and just other dramas and political things that I almost feel like if we're so out of balance that way, I would encourage artists to-- it gives the audience a bread and life from the other side. 'Cause in my personal life, I feel like in the people who I know we need more of a goodness color and light than we need more anger, but ultimately it's important to just be honest and truthful.

[00:07:30] Danielle Guy: Once again, going into the true thing, just tell the truth. I hear this all the time with actors where they're, where they say, "Oh, acting is my escape." And that's, those typically are the actors that are kind of hard to work with because it's not an escape. A lot of these characters are created out of some sense of reality. And I feel like we do them a dishonor by taking someone's potential life or potential situation and putting it on as a mask to escape the reality in our own. So it's just, you know, doing honor to the text doing honor to what has come before us.

[00:08:09] Erin Paige: To be authentic. I think it's vital as an artist to be as true to yourself as you possibly can. To be as authentic--oh, I just got covered in goosebumps-- that's, that's how I know I'm speaking from my authentic self, I always tell people. Yeah, just to be as authentic as possible, and that serves others. If you're not showing up in your most soulful or authentic self, you are denying those of us that are looking at your art, watching your art, listening to your art--you're denying us that divine gift. So please, please, please. think it's vital for artists to be responsible in their artwork by being as authentic as possible. And that's, that's what I have to say about that.

[00:09:04] Elizabeth Cooper: I would say being true to yourself and your passion. A lot of art is--it's interpretation of what, what you see around you and what inspires you. So you know, I would say that it's really being yourself and letting yourself and what you see shine through.

[00:09:27] Jeremiah Kauffman: I can't speak for all artists, but for a lot of us, the role of an artist is to, to move people and to hopefully elicit, inspire some kind of change in others. Some kind of, so, all right, you know, it could be producing positive change in society. So the role of the artist might be, of some artists might be, let's take-- the, the novels that were written about the canneries and the meat packing plants. That was a form of art, but it was designed to move people to make change and make positive change in society. The role of the artist is to entertain. You know, the role of the artist is to help other people love more deeply, to feel more deeply, to elicit joy, to elicit critical thinking too. Encourage people to also become artists. See, if I'm writing and I don't inspire anyone else to write then what was, what's the point? You know, I hope that as a writer, I inspire other people to write. So an artist is also someone who, whose role is to encourage the continuation of art.

[00:10:45] Katheryn Krouse: I think an important role for an artist is to just be authentic and true to, true to themselves. And even if that's not always the most likable approach to things, I mean, I think that that's an important role.

[00:11:02] Heidi Loubser: So, okay. Maybe this isn't a role but I think I would say--to be telling, or, you know, in dance or other forms we're not telling, but to be sharing the truth. I think of artists in some ways is a huge part of like the global marketing team. I mean, if you think about what people's opinions or worldviews or just what they believe about it, any number of things, art is often a huge part of, of how they got there. You know, we're not creating those ideas obviously, but I think artists are usually the ones expressing them or propagating them or suggesting that this is closer to what it should be, what we should be fighting for.

[00:11:47] Or even if it's, as artists are bringing joy and we're just bringing some humor and laughter and, and entertainment, you know, which is totally real as well, that's suggesting that that's valuable in life, right? So in my mind, there's a lot of different things you could be expressing with art, but it's the most important thing for me is just that what you're expressing is, is true. It lines up with reality, which doesn't mean that it's not fictional. I mean, obviously you could do a play about a fictional story, but you're, you're sharing truth through that. Not that it's factually correct, but you're, you're promoting and you're encouraging things in life that are really important and matter.

[00:12:33] Grace Strachan: To share their gift. To make sure that everybody is aware of their gift and to be proud of their gift. I think there's too many artists that, you know, I mean, I always remember hearing people say, "Oh, they want to be an artist. What are they going to do to make a living?" I find that sad. I find that very negative. I think what's wonderful about life now is that most people have more than one means of income. So artists have the advantage. Now there's a lot of ways that they can make a living, maybe not making okay, total living, but at least help support their art. And so I think the biggest thing is that people, when you have somebody that shows artistic talent, nurture that and, and have them share that with the world.

[00:13:27] Julie Ulstrup: Well, I think it's to connect. To connect with my self as an artist who I am so that I can connect with the people in my art and the people who are looking at my art, experiencing my art for many, many years.

[00:13:50] Kevin Dinneen: You know, I'm going to kind of cheat because I think it's up to each individual artist, and I think all of the roles of art are important. So you can think of the role of an artist portraying a social issue to bring about positive change. That's so important, but if you have an artist who is really gifted and really enjoys entertaining, a lighthearted entertainment, then I think that that's where they need to go. Then that is just as important of a role as, you know, bringing a social change or whatever, 'cause that's also a social change actually. And maybe, maybe an artist feels that he or she is is called to educate through art or inform through art. I think that they are all important and I feel like it's important for each artist to embrace his or her passion, and not conform to what they were, what he or she was told is art.

[00:14:56] Oh, it's not art if, you know, people can understand it. Or it's not, it's not art unless it's on canvas, or it's not art, unless it's to the point where it gets into a museum, or whatever it is that that people are told is not art. If you're it, whatever it is, I think whatever an artists' passion is, I think it's important for them to play that role. 'Cause they're going to do it better than if they were doing something else and they're going to do it better than someone else who has a different passion as well. So I think they're all important. And the most important thing is to follow your passion.

[00:15:34] Elna VanGreuning: I think they give other people a way of escaping. Not everybody, you know, has the talent to be an artist. Or maybe everybody's got the talent. We just don't work on it, maybe. You know, I always think I can't sing or draw. So therefore I want to, you know, stress that art can be different forms. And I think artists brings a form of art to us that maybe we cannot make ourselves or participate in, but can appreciate. And I think it's very important because I think we can't just work all the time. I think it's a stress. It helps with stress and I just think for your own psyche, it's wonderful to enjoy something beautiful.

[00:16:27] Liza Lomax: The most important role of an artist... being themselves and being their authentic selves. I think, you know, artists take a risk at everything that they do because you could be easily rejected or easily accepted. And if you show your authenticity through your work in anything that you do, not just art, but I mean, we're talking about art right now, but to show your authenticity through your work, makes it very valuable.

[00:16:58] Trenna Reed: think probably connecting to the audience, whether it be the person looking at your painting, or the person watching you perform, or watching the movie you created, just finding some way to connect to the people who are consuming that art.

[00:17:27] Kent Rader: I think to bring joy and happiness and a different end, to bring a different perspective, but especially today, we have a lot of difficulty in the world and if we can help someone through that, that's what I think we should be doing.

[00:17:42] Meghan Spencer: I think creation, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot, actually in the last, in the last year. And even in the last six months as we've been dealing with all, all the crazy that is 2020. I think for me, especially, but I think for artists in general, creation is the part that matters. And we have this like funny joke at our studio of saying, "Well, that's a choice." And normally it means like you're doing something silly or weird or whatever. But at its core, it really means that as an artist, your choices are all that matter. And I can have an opinion about your choices, but at the end of the day, they're your choices to make. And making those choices of how you want to make the art that you're making is on you, and whether or not other people like it or agree with it, or even understand it, doesn't really matter.

[00:18:52] Lindsey Dinneen: So I believe the most important role of an artist is to share beauty, hope and joy with the world. And I realize that there are so many things that artists can express. And I love that. I love that art can tackle very difficult topics and open up conversations about things that need to be discussed. And I, I so admire that. I think that there's a place for that, but I think ultimately, opening up those conversations and dealing with those difficult topics can lead to hope and optimism that the world can be changed and that things can be improved. And whether that just starts with the one person who was inspired by that, or whether that spreads out through an audience that thinks, "Wow, I've never looked at it that way before. And I am empowered. I am empowered to make a change. " And I think it's so important that artists can take life and give it this gorgeous rich goodness.

[00:20:16] Robyn Jameson: Well, the role of the artist is to create and to create authentically from the heart. I think the role of the artist also includes sharing what they've created.

[00:20:28] Lantz McDonald: I think honesty is probably the highest up there for me. I think that with a lot of art that is deemed not great or not good, it often has to do with the amount of honesty being portrayed. And if your sole focus is to just make a dollar or trying to, you know, slam an idea in somebody's face, it's not going to come off as well as if you're pulling from your heart and expressing yourself with honesty. There's, there's satire and stuff like that, but at its core, it still has an honest or a truth to it. And I think quality of art is very dependent on that truth-telling. So I'd say for anyone who's wanting to be an artist or who is an artist--let's face it, we all are at some extent-- just be honest with yourself and you will absolutely make something great.

[00:21:28] Helen Ransom: I think it's storytelling and it's trying to capture that moment, whatever that moment is. And, and the role of the artist is to tell that story the way they see it. And, you know, so for me, it was like that competition image that I've entered of the mom who was just done with the day and trying to capture that in a way that maybe people who, you know, if some men could see that be like, "Oh, that's why the dishes are still dirty when I come home, because she's done. She's done what she can to keep the kids alive." And I think the role of the artist is just to tell that story and to draw attention to things in the world.

[00:22:11] Crystal Tiehen: You know, it's interesting because I wouldn't even call it a role. I believe we are all artists because we are all co-creators. This is a belief system that I, I choose to really lean into is that we are all co-creators. And so having it as a role is something to say, I'm going to prioritize this. I'm going to prioritize the fact that I have the capability to be creative. I have the capability to be an artist and, and really being able to open up those doors for anyone that is willing to embrace it.

[00:22:56] Alden Miller: The showing or expression of the art, because it does no good for it to be in your head, in your head alone.

[00:23:04] Emerson Mertens: So I think for me, the most important role of an artist is really to share truth, hope, and beauty through my art. And that may look different depending on the type of art or the topic. It might not always be obvious on the surface, but I think that at least one of those things usually lies at the heart of nearly everything we share as artists. So to give an example of what I mean, an artist may create a piece that reflects a very difficult subject. So it might not really be positive or, or joyful in the presentation because of what that subject is, but there might, there may still be that truth that can be learned from that or a spark of hope that's conveyed to the audience. So no matter if we're painting a picture of colorful, pretty butterflies in a field, or I'm choreographing a dance about a really hard struggle like anxiety or loss. I believe that as artists, we should always try to look for those opportunities to bring that truth, hope, or beauty into our art in, in a way that really highlights the meaning and the purpose behind it.

[00:24:30] Kim Pierce: Ah, well, from the perspective of a makeup artist, it can be a little different from any other medium because makeup artistry quite often is to serve a client's needs. And once you're not necessarily putting out your own artistic vision, so for headshots or weddings, or even if you're doing like a commercial photo shoot where you have a director and they're telling you what they need or want, you're fulfilling someone else's vision. So, in these instances, my role is to execute that dream, that picture from someone else's head that I've never seen, and adapt that to the client or the model's facial structure and their skin tone and make whatever vision they have come true for that. And so that role is important to my livelihood and it also brings joy. It brings fulfillment when the client is satisfied, but that doesn't always fulfill what I need creative creatively, if that makes sense. I feel like I'm always grappling for an opportunity to serve up my own idea of beauty and my own artistic sense. But I think that part of your job as a makeup artist is to achieve both, you've got to satisfy the paying client every time obviously. And you also have to make sure you're taking time and any opportunity to nurture your own creativity, because I mean, otherwise you're going to burn out if you're just doing the same thing over and over, and you're never stretching yourself, eventually you're going to be over it. So only until you can manage both roles as a makeup artist where you're fulfilling the client's needs, but you're also edifying your creative spirit, I guess just like cultivating that within yourself. We can't really move to the next level of artistry until we've met both of those needs.

[00:26:24] Anh Lee: I believe it's really getting their story out there because again, stories can come in so many different forms from sculptures and ceramics and everything that you can imagine. I know a lot of people of color are really trying to get their stories out there in the industry. And definitely there has been much more opportunity for them than there has ever before though. So, in COVID-19 the opportunities now, people can start connecting with each other much more easily, rather than going face-to-face and location that might cost them, might have much more cost to an artist anticipated. So really taking the opportunity now to share these stories, or even put these stories in development. So that way they could bring more awareness to the world or even enhance a beauty of a particular culture.

[00:27:18] Maggie Rader: Oh, to connect, I'd say. You know, we were joking before we started rehearsing. It's like, "Oh, why does live theater still exist when movies are around?" And if you mess up, you can just start over and you only have to do it once then. But that's why live theater is still around. It's so much about connection. And I feel like out of all the, and maybe that's why I love the stage. It's, I feel like when you're doing live theater, you get to connect so much more than in other artistic mediums that I love, and enjoy, but it's not my particular passion. So yeah, I think the most important role is, or thing you can do, is to connect.

[00:27:59] Tessa Priem: When I first heard you ask this question on the first podcast that I listened to, one of my thoughts was honesty. Just honesty, honestly relating whatever it is that you're trying to create. I suppose I've also heard that art shows us what it means to be human. I mean, but that, well, I guess that kind of goes back to your former question. But, I think, for me personally, as an artist, like it's my big goal to be real and honest with people as I possibly can. I don't want to lie or hide because as you mentioned, it is very scary to reveal what you've made. It's very scary to reveal yourself. So in that it does require a good bit of bravery. And so I guess for me, I really just try to work on being real and honest, but I also want to be like lighthearted and silly at times too, because I can be a little bit serious sometimes. So that bringing that joy and fun, and I listened to your podcast, Lindsey, and I know that's what you've wanted to bring to people through your company, like the sense of joy and happiness and people's lives.

[00:29:24] Shari Augustine: I don't know generally speaking, but for me, I enjoy sharing things with people to hopefully make an impact on them or make a difference in their lives. You know, one way or the other, whether it is looking at things from a different perspective or just appreciating the beauty, feeling the music or feeling the movement. When I was doing, I did the liturgical dancing for a while and when I did that--liturgical dancing is dancing in church--and it was always my prayer that the spirit moving in me would move the spirit in the person who was watching. So that's kind of, I like to have an impact on people by sharing my art.

[00:30:23] Debbie Dinneen: Keep an open mind and try, just keep trying and try anything. And then, teach if you can, if you have the opportunity.

[00:30:34] Joe Pilgram: I believe that as artists, we should hopefully be able to, when people see it, that it reflects whether it's the personal things going on with that person, or maybe it's things going on around them that, that, content shapes context, is it? No, I want to say it's the other way around that context shapes content. And a Rodney Mullen, professional skater that I've told you about several times that that's, what he talks about is when he sees, you're going out and he talks about how the environment, how can the environment change the very nature of what I do. And I think as artists, that's an ebb and flow ever changing. A lot of the times that as artists, I don't think we ever stand still.

[00:31:33] And like you, hope to find, you hope to be content. I think that's what we strive for is to be content, you know, or definitely happy with something that we're sharing with the world that you're, you're putting out there. I think, you know, being, being content with it is know, a, a big thing with art. We can always nitpick and tear things, you know, make things better. We feel, but, it never seems like your work is done. You could come back two years later and look at the same piece that you did and feel differently about, you know, your, your concept of what it was based on. And, you and I have probably experienced this with choreographers that set something on you, and then they say, "Oh, so-and-so is coming back to restage this piece on everyone." And in your mind, as an individual artist, as a dancer, you think, "Oh, this'll be easy. I already know this piece inside of the house," and the choreographer comes in, and there's a lot that's changed.

[00:32:51] And, you know, to, to maybe finalize on that is, you know, you see different quotes around. And even at my work, one of my work buddies has a thing posted up that says something along the lines of "Perfection is the enemy of the good." Like, you can have something that's really good, but maybe not perfect, but to get something perfect, it's like, you're going to reduce morale. You can tear yourself up terribly, emotionally trying to get something 100% perfect. And finding that contentment and going, "Yeah, I think I'm, I'm okay with that."

[00:33:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I hope you enjoyed all of the answers to the question, "what's the most important role of an artist." As you can tell, we have such a diverse group of guests who have come through the show and it's been so much fun to hear their perspectives on some of these really interesting questions that lead us to think deeper about.

[00:33:54] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:34:04] Different aspects of art. So thank you for joining me. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I'd love. If you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

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In today's unique episode, I have compiled some of our more recent guests' answers to the question, "What is art to you?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part two of this series with you today. Enjoy!

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Episode 76 - "What is Art to You?" - Part 2

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world."

[00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful."

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and today I have a very unique episode that I'm really excited to share with you. It is a compilation of the different, amazing answers I've received over the last year and some change to the question, "What is art to you?" I love asking this question, because the answers I get are always so diverse and beautiful and unique and challenging. And I just can't wait to share the insights that I've gathered over the year with you. So enjoy and I'll catch you next time.

[00:01:14] Mike Huerter: Well, you know, art takes many forms: dance, acting, obviously drawing, painting. So I mean, for me, I think I probably gravitate more towards the acting, dancing role of art then, but that doesn't take away anything from any other art form, by any means, you know, musicians and all that. My sons and daughters are very musical. I love music. I, I wish I could play it, but I can't. So I'm in total admiration of people who can. I mean, it's such a gift that they can just-- my son's trying to, you know, he was trying to teach us to harmonize some time. They say, "Dad, it's right there in front of you." And it's like, "No, you don't understand. It's not right there in front of me. It might be for you." 'Cause he's got that ability where he can just pick out notes and play them, that kind of thing. So this would be a very sad world that any form of art . I think art-- it saddened me to see you know, some schools, they, it's not very high on their priority list. I think it's a great outlet for people to express their feelings as things that are going on, maybe emotionally in their lives. It's a great outlet for them, for them to, to bring that out without actually, without actually having to sit down and talk to somebody about it. I mean, they can express it in whatever form they want to. And it's, I think art's more for us, you know, the people are performing it than it is for the people that we're actually presenting it to.

[00:02:38] Gregg Gonzales: I think art to me is about self-expression in its truest form. That's why I think about the work that I do with my authors. They, they don't think about, about it as writing, but if you're speaking it, you're expressing yourself. You know it, to me, it's no different than if you were to sit at a computer and write, or pull out a pen and write in a journal just as the same way, you know, traditional authors do it. It's no different than someone sculpting a piece of raw clay into something beautiful, or a painter taking a blank canvas and creating something from their own self expression. So to me, art is the ultimate form of self-expression.

[00:03:21] Jami Robben: I would say art is just anything that expresses someone and it doesn't take any sort of level of talent or anything like that. It just is something that you express yourself with and it makes you happy. And it's something you're able to share with others and make them happy with it too.

[00:03:40] JaJa Smith: Art is expression. Art is a hundred percent expression. You know, whether you are a painter or you are a, a sketch artist or a actor, or whatever your canvas is, it's this release of energy. Some people don't know how to articulate themselves. So for them to be able to have this outlet, it's this beautiful thing. And then when it comes out, sometimes it's angry. Sometimes it's heartbroken. I remember very vividly my dad passed away on the night of an acting class, but I had to go because I didn't know how to handle my emotions outside of that. And you know, my, my acting class is my family, but I just needed that, that outlet, you know, it was just one of those things. It's like air almost. I think for a lot of other artists out there, I think art is their microphone to tell the world how they really feel, and in the way that best articulates it for them.

[00:04:44] Darnell Benjamin: I guess the best way I would describe art--art is perspective. Art is when someone shares their perspective through a specific medium whether that be film, theater, dance , visual , music. I mean, the list goes on. It's perspective. I think art is a person's perspective through a medium. I know that sounds very simple, but I think that that's, that's how I would define what art is.

[00:05:16] Emily Moores: I know maybe this isn't like the right answer, but I actually don't really worry about defining art because I think there's a lot of people who push, you know, especially when you think about like the past. A hundred years where people are like doing social practices, art, or they're switching into doing installations and all of these norms were broken, but they're still really meaningful ways of engagement. Sometimes I think if we get too caught up in trying to define something, then we can lose our ability to be open. And, and so I'm not-- I guess I'm not as concerned with having a definition. I know for me, I definitely practice within like the realm of installation and within, you know, making wall works. You know, like maybe I'll go back to making paintings or drawings, but like if I were to walk into a gallery and there's like a performance and it's mostly dance, I don't feel like I wouldn't necessarily want to adhere to a definition.

[00:06:20] Harlem Lennox: So to me, art can be just about anything. I don't like telling people like, "Oh, that painting -- that's not art. That will never be art." I look at art from a very broad sense where people will probably be like, "Well, then nothing is art if everything is art." But I look at, so for example, my daughter can make something, or my son, or my other son can make something, and I will look at it as art and I will seriously react to it the same way I would react to it if somebody showed me any piece of art. I look at nature as a form of art. The way that each tree is beautifully unique. And I have an obsession with trees and the way each tree is beautifully unique. And the simple fact that there's all these different changes and stuff like that within the universe.

[00:07:26] And so, 'cause I was actually thinking to myself last night, like even after-- you know, this is so morbid, but even after we're all gone and maybe, you know, like the dinosaurs, humans are no longer on the earth or whatever-- like the world, the earth is still going to be making art. I look at a lot of different things as art and I define art is anything that gives a person meaning. If you can look at it and feel something within yourself, within your soul deeply. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a positive or negative feeling, if you can feel something and it makes you think, then I consider it as art.

[00:08:12] Christina Stanton: So I think art helps us understand and appreciate and navigate life. I mean, it is life, but art bleeds over into every section of our lives and it just helps us through life. And you know, personally ,the most joy and love and sadness, the strongest emotions I feel, is through art. I'm pretty straight as an arrow and and other places in my life. But nothing makes me feel the human experience more than art does.

[00:08:50] Jeffrey Holst: So for me, art is, is any kind of creative endeavor that's that allows the creator to express themselves.

[00:09:00] Lucas Zellers: So for a while, I tried to come up with, with my own definition of this and I was sort of laboring under the impression that a definition that I hadn't written wasn't authentic. But I found one that I really liked. Elaine de Baton wrote this in his book," The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work." He said, "art is anything that points our thoughts in important yet neglected directions."

[00:09:25] Kristin Beale: Ooh, so I define art as an outlet because that's what it is to me. It started as an outlet. And so now , it's turning into an outlet for me when I got hurt and all this stuff. And now it's an outlet for my creativity and for my humor and for my personality. Whereas before it was an outlet for my frustration. I mean, at times it still is not for my frustration, but an outlet for my frustration and my new experiences and kind of digesting the world around me. So it looks like for me, it looks like, you know, real life experiences are relatable things or just things that will make you laugh or things that's a way to entertain people. Yeah, so an outlet for my creativity.

[00:10:05] Doug Motel: I think that art is when you actively step into creation and extend that, whatever, you know, whatever it is that created us has, I believe that whatever it is that created us has endowed us with the very same abilities, which is to create. And whenever you step into that and make a choice to create you are partaking in art. You are making art.

[00:10:37] Gloria Grace Rand: Art, art to me is expression. And it, because it can have so many different forms and, and I think it is, it's a way of expressing who you are, what your thoughts and beliefs are and it's a way of being able to just communicate you through whatever different modality you find, whether that's writing, whether it's music, whether it's actual painting and drawing. Cause there's so many different ways to be able to express. So yeah, I think, I mean, that's what it is. It's a way of being able to express, express yourself out there in the world.

[00:11:19] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think the best definition I have for it is connection. Like I mentioned earlier, that moment of unity is what makes live performance so much fun. I think any sort of art you've thrived for that point that the person who creates, meets with the person who observes and they share an awareness of some sort of information or perspective. You'll see a lot of people that say, "I do my art for my sake and I don't care what other people think." And quite honestly, I feel like that's a very selfish approach to art. You can be true to yourself and still honor the audience at the same time, because it's a symbiotic relationship. You are not an artist in a vacuum. We all exist because we are in the presence of each other.

[00:12:21] Christopher John Garcia: Art is that thing you do that is mostly useless, but ultimately important. It is the shape of the tool, not the use of the tool, I think is the way I, I wrote it in a paper once when I was trying to be smart. It's really about something that brings you an emotional experience of some sort that isn't just because of what it does, but what it is. And so, you know, we have paintings around the house 'cause my wife's mother's a actual painter who paints actual paintings. And every time I see one of them, it makes me feel hungry and it's because there's all sorts of food in it. But, you know, I consider that to be art because it draws an emotion out of me.

[00:13:08] Jeff Leisawitz: Art is anything that a human creates with the intention of expression.

[00:13:16] Natalie Cordone: I think art to me is self-expression in a way where you're attempting to communicate something that is incommunicable to another person.

[00:13:27] Shawn Kilgore: That's good. I think for me, it's the opportunity to escape.

[00:13:33] Corry MacDonald: Oh, art to me is pure expression from anybody's soul: on a page, in a meal, it can be the way they garden, the way they put themselves together with their clothes, or sculpture, music. Oh, any pure expression from the soul.

[00:13:52] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, I think that the dictionary definition would be simply something like, "the expression of human creativity and imagination to something such as a painting or a sculpture." Normally it's in visual form, but, personally, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be in visual form. I think, for example, poetry can be a form of art. Certainly music can be a form of art as well. So I think it goes beyond, it goes beyond the visual. It's basically the application of creativity and imagination into something that speaks to others. I believe that would be the definition.

[00:14:32] Sabrina Osso: Freedom. Freedom, and freedom is a two way street. I'm free and you're free. So that should be without harm, without anything negative. It is, it is freedom of expression. Just freedom.

[00:14:49] Anthony Saldana: Hmm, well, art can be a lot of things. It's something that you can make. You know, you can express yourself in so many different ways and it doesn't matter the material that you use or the sense that you use. You can make something in two dimensional, three dimensional. You can use your body as a dancer, like you, Lindsey, you're an artist, even though you say you can't do a drawing, but you can express yourself with your body. It's really about using your soul to basically express yourself to the world.

[00:15:25] Jason Figueira: I think that art in a way is a advanced form of communication. It's trying to communicate something, not just with words, but with sounds, with touch, something that it can appeal to almost all five senses. And I think it's like a window into someone's experience that it goes beyond just saying spoken dialogue we use every day. It's really helps other people. It helps bring them into an environment where an artist would like them to be your image, shaping a whole new reality in a way. And it's amazing what you can do with art. I mean, just from one picture, someone can leave their present day and be transported into a whole new one. So art, yeah, I would say is a very highly advanced form of communication.

[00:16:20] Sharon Glassman: I think it's a feeling generated by a selective something. So it could be a painting. It could be a dance. It could be a song, but I think it's that combination of created experience and emotion.

[00:16:45] Christopher Boorman: Generally speaking, I would say art is some kind of documented experience or a worldview that is intended to evoke either thought or emotion in the observer.

[00:16:58] Bryan Colley: I think art, in the grand scheme, art is, is how we communicate. It's, it's the most advanced form of communication. I mean, there's the obvious, you know, language-- you write a book and, and use words, and that's the obvious communication. But, and, and that works great if someone can speak that language, but not everyone does. And art is a way you can communicate that goes beyond language. And, and even as a playwright, of course I'm using words, but, but theater as a, as a way of communicating, it's, it's, it's, it's not just using words to tell a story. It's, it's putting, putting a scene on stage and communicating that experience. So you can communicate the experience, you can communicate emotions. I mean visual art is the way to communicate, you know, how do I describe the color blue? Well, I can, I can do a lot of words during it to tell you what blue is and never really explain it, but I can show you the color of blue and I can do, you know, a painting that shows you something you haven't seen before and communicates new ideas and thoughts and experiences. And I think that's kind of what art is all about and what, you know, it's what brings us together, humanity together, more than anything else.

[00:18:30] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So my answer is very simple and I just feel art is creative expression, and I want to be really clear in saying that it can be any creative expression. Crafting is art. Obviously, as you know, like dancing performance is art. Whether you are creating art in your bedroom or a professional studio, if this art ends up in the trash or hangs in a gallery, it's your creative expression and it's art.

[00:18:59] Patricia Karen Gage: I think art is liberating and it is the, probably the most relevant document of history that exists.

[00:19:13] Sally Brown: Art is everything. Art is the way to see. I mean, if I was going to get particular, I would say it's something that is, it's expressed. But if you look at things in different ways, anything can be art.

[00:19:25] Will Blaine: I think that, that art is tied up in an emotional expression, for me anyway. I think many people do art for different things, but I think it is always tied up with the emotion that you're feeling. It's very, it's very deeply emotional, whatever it is and that's, and that's why I don't think that art has to be anything particular. You don't have to draw a tree or a bush or a person, you know, you can just-- you'll see how the colors blend, and you can see how the shapes go together. You can see what space there is and, you know, whatever you're feeling that day, it affects what you're going to put down on that page. And it that's, that's, that's so fundamental to what art is. I think that defines what it is.

[00:20:09] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I'm the broad definitions guy. So I mean the, the cop-out answer would be to just say, I'd accept whatever definition anyone wants to give, but trying to be a little more thoughtful about it. How do I define art? I would say, I would say it takes a, there has to be an element of artifice for me. In, and even saying this as a storyteller who stands on stage telling personal stories, I think there does have to be an element of someone presenting themselves to someone else and presenting something created, something that there is an acknowledgement between the person presenting it and the person receiving it, that there is an element of unreality to this. That's pretty vague, but that's the first thing that's sprang into my head. So I think I'll stick with it.

[00:21:01] Aunia Kahn: So, you know, art, art is whatever it wants to be. And I, I'm really in love with all aspects of creativity. There's so many things that I'm sure that even people that are listening to that don't recognize as art or things that are going on that people aren't seeing, performance art being one of them, the collage community. I mean, there's just so many different types of art and it can be whatever it can be, whatever it wants to be, whatever you want to call art. If I want to put a, a rock on my desk and put a little hair clip on top of it, and I want to call it a sculpture, like, that's what I feel art is. I feel art is really anything you want it to be and anybody can be outside and go, yeah, that's a hair clip in a rock. Like that's not art, you know? And that's fine. Like, that's fine. But what we feel is it, how, how are we expressing ourselves? And if that makes me feel something, it's putting that hair clip on that rock does something for me, that's all that it really matters because art is really not about the viewer. It's more about the person doing it. Now, I know there's plenty of people who create art as you know for social justice and political reasons. Like I get that, like, it is more for the viewer. Like I get it. And maybe the people are doing it or having a really great experience around it as well.

[00:22:25] But when I think of art, I think about the core aspects of how is the person creating it, feeling about it? What are they getting from it? And that is really all that should matter to an artist. First of course, there could be other layers, like an onion on top of it, of how they want to take that out into the world. And if they want to take it out into the world, because there's a lot of people out there who are doing art that nobody even knows exists. Like my partner is also a gallery artist. And over the last year, he's decided he's not doing public art anymore. He's-- not public art, like, you know, public art in public places, but putting his art into galleries. And he has been doing a really private study of his own work and totally changed his style as well. And there's plenty of artists out there that we'll never see, we'll never get to experience, but it's all about the experience for ourselves while we're creating the work.

[00:23:22] Even if we're creating it just for commerce. And that's fine too. If you want to be an artist and you want to create it for commerce and you know what people like, and you know how to sell it, good for you. You know your reason behind it, it doesn't make it any less art than somebody who's creating something for galleries or creating something, you know, just for themselves or maybe even for their parent or their best friend. So that's kind of what art is to me, the experience of creating something. What it does, how, how we experience it, and then the decision of how we're going to take that further if we want to take it further.

[00:23:58] Justin Alcala: I think I may have said it before that art is creation through the aptitude and inspiration in order to communicate something amazing. And for me, you know, it's using what's playful, awkward, and a little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain.

[00:24:14] Natsune Oki: Since I'm such like so heavy into what I do with it, I thought education may be the only thing that I can think of when I think about art is our possibility and our future.

[00:24:26] Rachel Moore: The first thing that comes into my mind for what it's worth is, is, is actually my friend's definition of music. And she says that in order for something to be music, it has to have a rhythm. And I, yeah, I kind of feel like I could apply that to almost all art forms, right? Like I like to do a lot of photography too, you know, just, just like in, you know, amateur photography, whatever. But I like to find like, okay, what's in the front of this photo, what's in the back? What are the patterns of this flower that I'm taking a picture of? Right? Like what's the rhythm of this. There's something in there and I could probably write or talk more about this at some point, but there's something in there about the rhythm of music or visual art or dance or writing, especially I definitely, I, when I was a newspaper copy editor, I always have to check myself because I tended to like the headlines that sounded the best rather than maybe were the best written. So I'm like, okay, wait, it has to be accurate too, not just sound great. So yeah, something about that, that the rhythm and the sound.

[00:25:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you thoroughly enjoyed all of the answers to the question, "What is art to you?" I love hearing those responses. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I have reliving these moments of inspiration and beauty. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:25:58] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Kelsey Aicher! Kelsey is a trapeze artist and coach, as well as the Artistic Director of Aerheart and the Training Company Program Director for Kansas City Aerial Arts. She shares her experience with mental health issues and why she's so passionate about opening conversations about it. She shares with us her heart behind her latest show "n0rmal" (premiering in Kansas City and on livestream soon!) and some of her exciting future plans. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is part of the show image for "n0rmal"!)

Get in touch with Kelsey Aicher: www.kansascityaerialarts.com | kelsey@kansascityaerialarts.com

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Episode 75 - Kelsey Aicher

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

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[00:02:11] Hello and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Kelsey Aicher. She is a trapeze artist and coach. She is the Artistic Director of Aerheart and also the training director for Kansas City Aerial Arts for their training company. She's the director for that. And I am just absolutely thrilled that she is joining us here today. Thanks so much for being here, Kelsey.

[00:02:43] Kelsey Aicher: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art in general, and then specifically in aerial arts and let us know a little bit about what you're doing now to, if you don't mind.

[00:02:58] Kelsey Aicher: Yeah. So I have a very strange accidental journey to where I am right now. I've always been really good at math. And that's honestly what got me into art was, I was just, I skipped a grade in math and in third grade and was always advanced. And I was so bored in all of my math classes in high school because I just felt it was too easy. So I started writing short stories instead of paying attention in class. And that's when I fell in love with writing. I started taking creative writing classes, realized I love writing short stories and wondered if I could make a profit or like make a career out of it. So I started studying screenwriting by reading every book that I could. And when I was a junior in high school, I took a summer screenwriting camp at Drexel University and studied screenwriting intensely with the professors and fell in love, went to NYU at first and then switched to Columbia College to finish my Bachelor's in Screenwriting.

[00:04:01] And then my life pulled me into Portland. My ex-husband got a job there and I didn't know what to do. And so I was freelancing as a screenwriter doing commercial scripts. I started taking aerial classes to do something, to feel, to feel productive. It was just a hobby. And then a year later I started performing and coaching. And a year after that, I was hired professionally to perform trapeze and just somehow accidentally became a trapeze artist. I don't think that's most people's journey. And now moving to Kansas City, I moved here four years ago. I've been able to combine my love of writing and my aerial arts by writing circus stage shows for the training company, student company, and the professional company.

[00:04:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that you've been able to incorporate both of your passions into this one cool endeavor that you've been able to undertake. So that's, that's really interesting. So, like you said, sort of the accidental everything coming together, but it sounds like it, it came together pretty, pretty, perfectly, so that's, that's great. So you talked about, you know, starting with the background in, in writing. And so I'm curious how that transition has been, because you were talking about screenplays and whatnot. So, so how have you found that background to be obviously incredibly helpful as you plan out shows, but then also, how has it changed or evolved over the years just because it's necessary to do so with producing a, an aerial show versus let's say a movie?

[00:05:45] Kelsey Aicher: So starting at NYU for college, they have your freshman year, you have all the --all dramatic writing students are combined to a class. So it's playwrights, TV writers, and screenwriters. And the first semester, all we did was study plays. And then the second semester we started moving into TV and films. So I actually got a lot of training in playwriting as well as part of my education into screenwriting. When I write a show: one, I think just in general, any type of writer, whether it's short story, novels, whatever, there's still always standard structures of a story. They're generally three acts and character development, multiple plot points. So just understanding story, I think, helps with creating any type of show on stage. Even if it's silent, like ours are-- I shouldn't say silent, but free of dialogue, like ours are-- in a circus show. But having the playwriting understanding actually helps me more. I treat it like I'm writing a musical, so I still outline all my habits and stuff like that like I do for screen writing. I write like my treatment, my outlook.

[00:07:01] But then when I think about it, conceptually, I think of it like a musical, because a musical has this narrative story, but then the idea of having a musical number where you're just singing is so removed from reality that it's like a large moment that's just capturing one tiny little feeling. And that's kind of what I do with aerial is like, okay, we're having this story flowing through. And now we have this character locks eyes with this character. And instead of singing a song about it, we're going to have three aerialists on silks doing a whole dance that's showing how these two characters have just fallen in love at first sight.

[00:07:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. I can completely see that. It's so helpful to have that background of understanding the, the building blocks of creating a story in order to translate it to an art form that you really can't do as much with as far as-- well, you could, I suppose with dialogue-- but traditionally you don't. So yeah, I think that's, that's really neat. And I'm curious, has there been one show in particular that you've worked on, perhaps that has been the most difficult to translate from your concept in your head and like, "I know I want to get these messages across" to put it on, you know, an aerial production where they can, they can interact with each other? Yes, you can see those very human moments and these connections, but still to get across your main point, you know, what was, what has been one of the most challenging that you've experienced so far?

[00:08:36] Kelsey Aicher: I think the one that has not actually been released yet. I wrote a show for the training company, Kansas City Aerial Arts called "The Spaces Between," and it's very conceptual. I started writing it-- honestly, I think it was the first show I started to write. But it just didn't make sense to have them start with the students, start with like a really highly conceptual show. And so I put it on hold for several years and we finally were doing it to debut on April 3rd, 2020. So we spent six months building up for this show, getting everything ready. And the three weeks before the show, we shut down the whole studio. And so we actually just filmed it in this past April, April 2021, and it's still in the editing process, so I haven't seen it yet. So that's why I'm interested to see if it goes across.

[00:09:33] In the past I've written really, really narrative shows. We've did one about the story of Prometheus and the one that we did before "Spaces Between" was called "Masked: A Superhero Love Story." And it was very clear that here's our hero, here's our villain. And they fall in love and like everything that's happening. So generally I go very narrative where like one person is playing a character and it's the whole through line. With "The Spaces Between," there was a narrator that was just telling the story about growing up, dealing with parents' divorce and death of her sister and escaping, using her imagination to escape what was the stress of what was happening in her life and going to your imagination by thinking of like the worlds that are created in the space inside of bubble or the space between two pages of a book. So it's interesting to make things really, really highly conceptual, where people are just like in normal clothes. And it's not really obvious. They're not heavy characters. Even if the narrator is talking about bubbles beforehand, will people be able to tell that these three lyra performers are supposed to be fairies come to life in this magical world between bubbles?

[00:10:46] So I, I think that that's the hardest one, but I also don't know yet the end results, since it hasn't been released yet. It's not fully edited. So I'm when we interested to see if the whole concept and idea that comes across. I hope it does, but I know that that's definitely-- it's a lot harder to convey a concept, especially when we're doing everything very conceptual anyway. Like falling in love is easier to do with dialogue than with aerial, but at least we can create a lot of set up with the right music and costuming and movement to convey it, than trying to convey something like-- I'm trying to think of an example. Oh, there's one where it is-- they're portraying the space between notes in music and on trapeze. And whether that's going to come across or not, I don't know.

[00:11:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. You know, on some level I think every time I write and produce a show is, you know, I, I have some level of confidence having been able to produce shows that I'm proud of in the past, but there's always that, you know, when you produce something new, is it, is it going to read, is it going to come across to your audience or did you just create this cool thing in your head that everyone's like, "oh yeah, that was interesting," but they don't quite get. So I can certainly relate to that. But I'm excited for that, that show. That sounds really interesting and unique. And I think, I think that will be a really cool concept to watch. Well, a series of concepts to, to watch in a, in an aerial show specifically. Well, I know that you're currently working on a show that is coming up pretty quickly here, just a few weeks away. And I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing that. I know it's a very, you know, personal thing for you. And I don't want to give anything away ahead of time. I want you to speak to it, but I would love if you would share just a little bit about maybe your next upcoming production that is finally live again. So exciting.

[00:12:56] Kelsey Aicher: I am very excited to be back to live theater. It is, I don't enjoy filming things that were meant for stage, despite my screenwriting background. Yeah. So I am making, I've directed the student company before. This is my first time directing our professional company, Aerheart. It is also my first time directing a show that I'm performing in since I'm in Aerheart, but the show is called "n0rmal." Doesn't sound so exciting, but I want to spell this out. We're spelling it lowercase n, the number zero, r m a l. I put the zero in because I wanted to show that like no one is free from mental health or no one is untouched by mental health topics. Like everyone is affected. We're not alone. So I put the zero in there, one, to make the spelling a little bit quirkier, but to, to show that like we're all in this together, no one is exempt from dealing with mental illness or mental health issues. And that's the subject of the show we are talking about trying to normalize talking about mental health and suicide prevention.

[00:14:07] Yes, you mentioned that it is a more of a personal story or personal project for me. One, in the pandemic, I saw a lot of my friends have more mental health issues. And for me, I went deeper into my depression, which I've been dealing with since I was 14. And more on a very personal level, I had an addiction to self-harm, to cutting specifically when I was in high school, and I struggled a lot with it. I was hospitalized in college for self harm and I have struggled on and off, but I've been pretty good in my adult years. And during the pandemic with everything being as hard as it was and depressing that it was, I picked up the habit again and it was a struggle and it was a thing that I didn't like. And so I resumed therapy and got back out of the, I stopped it before it became an addiction or a habit again. So I was already dealing with like, "okay, I'm having a tough time. And I know I'm not the only person having a tough time, but none of us are talking about it."

[00:15:17] And I'm coming from a place of privilege like that I get to create art all the time. I have been in therapy. I am willing to talk about my own struggles with anyone. But not everyone feels that safety because there are so many reasons to feel like talking about having depression or having suicidal thoughts is taboo. It's going to be a sign of weakness or people just don't understand. And people end up feeling isolated and alone for that reason because they feel like they're the only one feeling what they're feeling. So I wanted to create a show that was to say like, "Hey, you aren't alone." We all experienced this thing in different ways, but it's okay to talk about it and there is support out there. So that's kind of how "n0rmal" started.

[00:16:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to say, you know, for me personally, but just for, for the world, for people in general-- I, I'm so thankful that you are willing to, to address this and to address it in a way that brings people together and says you're not alone, that, that many of us struggle daily with various, you know, mental health concerns. And I think that, you know, I agree with you a lot of times we're led to feel like we're the only ones experiencing something, and that's just not true. And I've noticed for myself that the more honest and open I can be about my own struggles with, you know, with the appropriate people-- not, not everybody-- but with the appropriate people that there's this extremely supportive community in the feeling of, if I can be honest, that allows other people to be honest too. And then we can support each other, but if we don't know what's going on and we can't be honest, then we're stuck in this loop of, of feeling like we're alone because clearly nobody else is going through this. Everybody else has their lives together when that is so not true. So, yeah, I, so I really commend you for, for doing this, and I'm really curious to me, this sounds like one of those concepts that is extremely difficult to translate to an aerial show. So I'm curious how that process has gone for you. And are you sort of tackling different aspects of mental health per piece or is there like a very clear running narrative throughout the whole?

[00:17:55] Kelsey Aicher: It is more the former. So I have a description that has some statistics and my, my apologies if this number is wrong. If you come see the show, the correct information is on the program, but it's-- I have a two paragraph description, one paragraph for each act, and the first act talks about some statistics. Like the first piece is called-- and I'm going to get this number wrong, I'm so sorry-- 48,481, I think is the number, which is the number of lives lost to suicide in the year 2020 in the US. Wow. Which is a lot. And so I start with the first act being a lot of statistics and things like psychosis, depression, and substance use disorder are three of the highest risk factors for suicide. Things like being a member of a minority community, especially LGBTQ, or having experienced post-traumatic stress disorder, veterans. There are a lot of risk factors that show signs like that go into complete suicide. And so the first act kind of covers a lot of the different warning signs or common risk factors that can lead to suicide.

[00:19:28] And then in what I think is the hardest piece in the show, like not hardest physically, but the hardest piece to watch is an acro number where-- I'm in this piece, of course, my partner and I at the end commit suicide. And then the second act is more about like, okay, so we know that there are these problems that people are facing. There's these mental health issues. There are these risk factors. There are certain groups that are more at risk than others and it's really prevalent. So then the second act is about like, okay, so people might be drawn to suicide because they feel like they're a burden to other people or because they want their pain to end and we can support them. And what you're talking about with the, having the conversation to find out, like, by actually saying like what's going on and you end up finding that you're not alone and that there's a support system. The second to last piece-- which I'm also in-- apparently I'm in the hard pieces emotionally.

[00:20:29] It's called "Honest Conversation." And it's performed with my duo partner, Elena Sherman, and my real life best friend. And we are-- our piece is duo lyra, and we're having an honest conversation where in this piece we are through aerial saying like, "Hey, I have been feeling this way." And then all of a sudden hearing, "oh, I've been feeling this way too, and I love you." And we love each other and maybe we can like support each other. So having that honest conversation, just talking about it. So it's very conceptual because there isn't like a strong through line, but I did have these two paragraphs written in the program. And the title of each act is in bold and caps in the paragraph. So if you want to kind of follow along, so you're just like, "I don't even know what's going on right now," you have that safety backup to find out like what we're talking about with psychosis, hopefully like in the piece specifically about psychosis, where we have two people that are kind of like the same sometimes, and then moving further away from each other at other times, hopefully you can kind of get that sense of having -- not multiple personalities-- but having conflicting feelings and manic and depressive states that are sometimes together and sometimes battling each other. Hopefully in the piece about depression, you get the sense of just feeling defeated and depressed. But there is that option of go back and look at the paragraph and you can figure out what we're doing.

[00:22:00] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Yeah. And I know this show is coming up pretty quickly. So do you want to share the details of how we might be able to watch it, whether we're local to Kansas City or not?

[00:22:12] Kelsey Aicher: If you are local to Kansas City, we are going to be performing this show live at City Stage at Union Station on November 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21st. You can buy tickets at kansascityaerialarts.com. There'll be a link to our EventBrite page. If you are not local to Kansas City, and you want to check out the show, we are going to do a live stream on the Friday, November 19th show, and you can buy tickets through our same EventBrite page there. And if you do the live stream, you'll be able to not only watch it live on Friday, but you'll have access to watch it at another time after that, that weekend. So I know some of my students that are coming to see the show in person that have family members that are in different states are also gifting a live stream to their family members so that everyone they want to share it with can see this show.

[00:23:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's a perfect option. Thank you for sharing all about it and the process and all of that. And I'm wondering how it's been for you personally, and you can go into as little or as much detail as you want, but this is obviously-- like, we've kind of touched on something near and dear to your heart. And I, I, I know from my own personal experience that sometimes taking something that is really, really difficult, and frankly, even just difficult to talk about regardless of your comfort level of it, it's just still hard. I'm, I'm curious how that's been for you to translate that for yourself as a performer and then watching your creation come to life. How has that process been for you? I mean, I can only imagine that you are, you're needing to do a lot of self care on the side to really you know, not go down a rabbit hole of, of, of you know, reliving some of those harder moments, but, but, but still able to portray it. Do you mind speaking to that?

[00:24:11] Kelsey Aicher: Yeah, of course. Yeah, I feel like I've been sharing my story more in the last few weeks than I ever have in my life, but I have, I've decided about five years ago that I was going to stop worrying about covering up my scars and not worry about telling people that I have depression, like not trying to hide it. I grew up in a Catholic small town, rural Wisconsin, conservative family. And when the school counselor told my parents that like I had talked about suicide ideation and that I should seek counseling, my parents were really upset that I would need extra help. My mom would drive me to and from therapy in silence and she would always like give me a doctors' note, like that I had a doctor's appointment. Like she would not let the school know that it was for counseling. I was told that I was not allowed to tell anyone, like none of my friends. So I went through my teenage years, dealing with an addiction to cutting, dealing with depression, dealing with starting meds for major depression and anxiety.

[00:25:24] And my parents wouldn't talk to me about it. And I couldn't talk to any of my friends. And so I grew up being like, everything that I'm dealing with is something to be ashamed about. And even when I was hospitalized in college, it was only because some one saw --a neighbor in the dorms. I started like bleeding through my shirt and I didn't realize I was bleeding through my shirt from all of my wounds that I had self-inflicted, and they're the ones that took me to the hospital. And then coming back from that break, my parents and I really didn't talk about it. So it's just been like this whole, like life of like, you're supposed to be ashamed of having depression. You're supposed to hide it. You're not supposed to talk about it because like it's improper and it reflects poorly on your family and everyone else around you.

[00:26:09] And in Portland, I had a coach who was wearing tank tops all the time and I could see her scars. And I asked her about at one time, like really like hesitantly about like, "Why do you feel comfortable showing your scars?" And she's like, "I get hot easily. I don't want to wear sleeves when I'm training." And it was just like this whole idea of like, "oh, this isn't a big deal." And so I made it a goal for myself that once a week, from them that point on, I was going to wear either shorts or short sleeves or something that revealed at least a scar once, once a week. And it wasn't necessarily around people I knew, or to like my aerial classrooms, and that it would be like to the grocery store, but I was just going to like gradually become okay with like having my scars exposed because I would like literally wear long sleeves and pants. And I like cover absolutely everything.

[00:27:02] And so when I started getting comfortable with like my body and people seeing this, and I started like realizing. There's this other person that has this thing. And then we start talking these other people and they have depression. I was like, "oh, I'm not alone." And "Hey, I can start talking about these things." And I've found for me that the best thing for my own mental health and my own control of my problems with self harm has been being honest in talking about it. So I think for me, because I have been now for like, six, seven years been very open. Like if anyone asks me about something that's going on or my past experience, I will tell them. I will be honest. And it's just been something that's been so helpful for me. So I think along this journey, working on this show, even though it is so personal to me and personal to all the performers, I've already-- I don't want to say made my peace but it's the best phrase that's coming to my head right now-- made my peace with that that I don't feel super vulnerable to it.

[00:28:00] That said, I am reading something on stage that I wrote. And I have found that when I listened to myself say these words, I have a really tough time. That's when I get triggered. So I have to, there's a piece where I'm reading something I wrote while a contortionist is performing to my words on stage. And anytime she sends me her videos to show me like, "oh, this is what I'm working on," I have to turn the sound off because if I hear myself saying these words, these about having anxiety and feeling stressed out, I get like, I have a physical reaction. So I have found that like, that's my one like trigger in this show, everything else I've been okay with. I've seen a lot of the performers, so many of the performers, if not every performer in this show has started putting their own emotions, their own feelings and their own experiences into this show as well. And so I've seen it more, I've seen more reactions from the other cast members seeing like how their real feelings are getting into the pieces and sometimes disrupting it.

[00:29:09] And so I've talked to some of the newer performers. And the way that I keep my, the way I picture it is, you want to be you adjacent. So I think like, there's this character and then there's yourself and you want to have them next to each other so that they're just touching enough that you can pass the emotions and the feelings of your own experiences into your character, but you don't want them to be overlapping and you don't want them to be the same. Because if you are now becoming your reality into this piece, it's going to be so hard as a performer. It's going to be too easy to break down and to not actually separate yourself from the art that you're working on. So I talked to someone else about this and they just decided that they described it as a mask work, where you don't want your mask to be so tight fitting that it's yourself. You want to have a little bit of space between you and your mask that you're presenting. I think of it as being adjacent. Either way, it's this idea that you need to put all of your feelings and your experiences and your person next to your character that you're being. So pull on your experiences of self-harm and depression in this piece about depression, but don't make it actually your real experiences. If that makes sense.

[00:30:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and that's great advice. And I wish I had heard that advice a few years ago. I performed a piece where my character was the subject of some pretty intense bullying and, you know, a lot of gossip swirling around the character and the character had to deal with it. And, and it was very difficult to, to be adjacent to that character, having experienced some, some similar kinds of-- not the same obviously things-- but similar things to have those feelings brought back up, right? And so, yeah, that is such a good piece of advice. Yes, draw on your own experience to be able to portray it, to be able to share with the audience, "this is how this feels to me," but not so much that you get to a point of reliving the difficult, like-- I mean, trauma is a strong word-- but you know, things are traumatic, so don't relive the trauma exactly. But yeah, but, but be willing to sit with the feeling. And stay a little bit separate. I like, I like the way that, that you talked about that. Yeah. That's really important.

[00:31:33] Kelsey Aicher: And you don't want to completely remove yourself from it because then your performance is inauthentic. Like you still want to give an honest portrayal, but that's why I always think of it, like as adjacent, like touching but not overlapping.

[00:31:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's fantastic. And I'm sorry to hear that you didn't have that support system growing up. I think there-- there's still is-- but there were for many, many years just so much stigma surrounding any sort of mental health difficulty. And I'm so thankful that you have a great support system now, from the sounds of it. And again, we, we are all touched by it. I love what your concept of that is, is nobody has been untouched in some way, whether it's you yourself or, or somebody that you love deeply or whatever. It's, it's there. And so being able to have those honest conversations and draw on the support of others and professionals. And I'm a huge advocate for therapy. I, I think therapy is for absolutely everyone.

[00:32:30] Kelsey Aicher: Yes. I think that is something that everyone should experience at least once in their life. Like we go to the dentist twice a year to make sure that our teeth are still okay. We go to the doctor to make sure that everything's okay. Why don't we do this same thing for our emotional and mental wellbeing? Like everyone should be just at least once in their life should get that like tune-up. We do it for our cars. We do it for everything. But we should do it for our brain as well.

[00:32:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Amen. Fully on board with that. Yes. So I'm sure that you're a pretty wrapped up in, you know, everything that is "n0rmal" right now, but then what is on the horizon for you? Where do you see yourself heading to next?

[00:33:12] Kelsey Aicher: Well, always more things. I'm sure you already know that our training company is doing this production in December with VidaDance, called "Cracked!" So I'm simultaneously working on training and getting everything together and directing "n0rmal" while also doing some choreography and coaching for the training company for "Cracked!" And the training company at KCAA is already starting to work on our spring show which is a pop goth, gender neutral fairytale retelling, called "The Glass Combat Boot." So I'm already doing auditions for that and choreography and getting everything lined up. That will be in May, again at City Stage. And then, because I'm always thinking so far ahead, I'm getting the concept ready for their Fringe show and I'm already working on Aerheart's show for next year, next fall. So I'm constantly, I always like to stay one year ahead when it comes to writing the show that we're going to do.

[00:34:17] So I kind of have a system of "alright, idea for next year's show needs to be done at least one year in advance. I need to have an outline at least 10 months in advance. I need to start auditions and choreography" by the time that we have started by the time we're in production of the previous show. So I'm going year-round constantly thinking of like what the next project is. It helps that I always like to create, so I get excited about things and the people I work with, both in Aerheart and in the training company, they're so inspiring. And so sometimes they'll just say something or do something and I see an image and that sparks a whole entire show.

[00:35:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I have the privilege of actually knowing you in real life, not just, you know, over the, the podcast. And so, yeah, you are one of the most organized people I've ever met, which obviously you have to be, considering you always have like 15,000 things on your plate, so kudos to you.

[00:35:21] Kelsey Aicher: I don't usually feel that way so thank you for the compliment.

[00:35:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, yeah, and I understand that the not feeling that way, but clearly, you know, you are very. So good, good for you, but yeah, that, that is awesome. And for those who haven't had the chance to experience Kansas City Aerial Arts yet-- first of all, I just have to say the company, the professional company Aerheart, and then of course the training company, but the students in general are just amazing people first and they're amazing performers second, but they are just-- you have to watch, you have to watch their shows, frankly. Just shameless plug, but like, it just, you have to do it because they're, they're so good. And one of the things that I enjoy so much about watching them perform is how much they enjoy performing together. It's just obvious.

[00:36:11] Kelsey Aicher: Yes. Yes. 100%. This is the most supportive community I have ever known. Like, I am constantly baffled by them. We hold auditions and it's almost like people get more excited to find out that they didn't get a solo because they're excited that someone else got the solo. It's, it is so crazy how much they all support each other and love each other. And like you said, it just shows on stage.

[00:36:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It's, it's magical. It's a really special atmosphere that you all have obviously carefully curated and support, but it is awesome the kind of people that you draw in and the way that they interact with each other. It's, it's always a blessing when we get to interact with y'all, but just in general, it's so much fun to watch you. And I would highly also encourage that if anybody is local to Kansas City and has any interest in aerial art, definitely that's the way to go. Like I said, they're extremely supportive people. Even if you've literally never done anything aerial before, they're not going to make you feel goofy or anything. I mean, I did an intro lesson one time and I was so like, I, you know, don't have the upper body strength or anything, and everyone was just so supportive and sweet and you know, that's the way to go. Well Kelsey, you know, thank you so much in general for, for being honest and open with, with us and specifically with the show. I'm really excited that you're doing this and I commend the work. I think it's extremely important that you're doing it. So thank you so much for that. I do have a couple sort of generic questions that I like to ask my guests if you're comfortable with that.

[00:37:50] Kelsey Aicher: Yeah, of course.

[00:37:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, first of all, what is one change that you would really like to see in the art world? It could be really anything-- could be a very serious sort of change that you feel like needs to be made or something fun. Just what's one thing you would like to see changed about the art world?

[00:38:10] Kelsey Aicher: One thing that I really struggle with is I don't feel that artists receive the same respect as someone that works like a standard nine to five. Like we're constantly asked to work for experience or do work for free promotion, but you wouldn't ask an architect to build a design your building for free, just for exposure. And I think that artists frequently thought of as, "oh, you're just doing it because you love it. And so you should just do it for the love and you don't have to worry about getting paid or getting paid equally." And I don't know, I feel like it's kind of like, you know, people that are computer programmers, they don't just write code because they want to make money. They do it also because they enjoy it, and artists do their work because they enjoy it. But why are we expected to just enjoy it and not seek compensation? So I do wish that there was a little bit more respect financially for artists.

[00:39:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes. And amen. Yep, absolutely agree. And then is there something arts related that you still want to explore that you haven't yet? So maybe another form of art that has it kind of, you know, prodded you here and there that, "oh, try me!" But you haven't had the opportunity or, or haven't gone for it yet?

[00:39:38] Kelsey Aicher: Hmm. That is a really good question. I tend to be a person who-- I don't want to say impulsive, I'm impulsive light. So if there's something that interests me, I usually go for it and I dive in to it. So most things I feel like I have tried. I do still have the goal and it's not new. I, I love writing and I still write regularly. I still have the goal of writing a novel someday. But I'm trying to think of other art forms that I haven't dabbled in that I had just like really would like to try. I can tell you that one of my favorite art forms to watch is, I love watching dance. I love watching all types of dance and I just get mesmerized by it. And when there's an aerialist and a dancer on stage at the same time, the audience is almost always watching the aerialist because that's the thing that they haven't seen so much. And for me, I'm always watching the dancers cause I'm like, "But, but the dancer!" But I, I have tried dancing. I'm not great at dancing. I really respect everything that you guys do. Because I, I'm not a great mover on the ground by any means.

[00:40:43] Lindsey Dinneen: But maybe something to further explore someday if you feel like it!

[00:40:46] Kelsey Aicher: Possibly. Yeah. I mean, things in the circus arts, I know I want to get better at hand balancing and I've even considered-- it's just like, not professionally-- but like, I'm like when I retire from aerial, I think I might try to get a little bit more into contortion. You know, cause someone just gets into contortion for fun. But yeah, I think that my art, I just like to, I like being creative. I like, I like to move my body a lot, so I think it'd be something along those lines or even in the martial arts, I know. Not everyone considers that to be an art, but there certainly is a movement and an art form to things like Tai Chi or TaeKwonDo. So I think maybe the martial arts would be something I would try out.

[00:41:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Great. And then my final question is-- so at the end of your life, what is one arts related experience that you would want to experience one last time for the last time?

[00:41:45] Kelsey Aicher: Directing a show with aerialists. It's funny that I have fallen in love with it in the last few years, because I, when I was in film school, I really just wanted to be a writer. I had no ambition to be a director, almost everyone I was in classes with was like director, director, or writer, director. And I was like, no, I really do not want to direct. And the last four years with Kansas City Aerial Arts and working with the student company in particular, like being able to see us, all that team effort put in heart and soul from choreographers and performers and coaches and make a vision come to life. And it's not just like this vision that I have, like, I love seeing their reaction. Like "Masked" was my favorite show that we've done so far on stage. And after "Masked," so many of the students came up to me were just like, "We can do this again, right? Like we should just like, get the, the theater again next week and just keep performing this show." And that joy and that excitement of "we did this together as a team, we got this concept, we were the best artists we could be and we executed a vision." It's just so incredible. And so I imagine that like at the end of my life, I just want to direct one more show with this community again.

[00:43:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I can understand that. Certainly relate to that. Yeah. Well, Kelsey, thank you so very much for being here today. I'm just so inspired by what you've been talking about and your courage in speaking out about things that are important, that matter to you, that matter to everyone. So thank you for doing that. And if, if people are interested in connecting with you specifically, is there a way for them to do?

[00:43:33] Kelsey Aicher: Yes. You can go to kansascityaerialarts.com and you'll be able to find my bio and my contact information. If you want to email me, it's kelsey@kansascityaerialarts.com. I am not very good about social media, but I do have an Instagram account, which is mindfulaerhead. Airhead is A E R. So M I N D F U L A E R H E A D. So mindfulaerhead because I am really into mindfulness while being in the air. And yep. So you can follow me on Instagram there and message me that way as well. I will do my best to respond. I'm working this year on improving my social media presence, but it has been a thing that I have been removed from for several years.

[00:44:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I can relate to that. Well, thanks again so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am after listening to this episode, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:44:41] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:44:51] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's unique episode, I have compiled some of our earliest guests' answers to the question, "What is art to you?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part one of this limited series with you today. Enjoy!

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Episode 74 - "What is Art to You?" - Part 1

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world."

[00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful."

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and today I have a very unique episode that I'm really excited to share with you. It is a compilation of all of the different, amazing answers I've received over the last year and some change to the question, "what is art to you?" I love asking this question, because the answers I get are always so diverse and beautiful and unique and challenging. And I just can't wait to share the insights that I've gathered over the year with you. So enjoy and I'll catch you next time.

[00:01:14] Ashley Taylor: To me, art is way for us to make sense of the world that we live in at its most basic level. I think we can do that a number of different ways. For one thing, sometimes when I think of art, I think of still life painting or landscape painting. That's like a very basic example of art. Or even going back to like the cave paintings, which is little stick animals, right? That's a way of humans who are saying, " Here's what I see. I'm going to try to copy it or represent it."

[00:01:45] And that's a very simple, almost primitive way of trying to make sense of the world of the world that we live in. So we can start there, or we can go all the way to very abstract paintings or dances or music, which sometimes are so abstract that the audience doesn't even understand what the inspiration was, but that is somebody trying to make sense of the world in their own way.

[00:02:08] I'm sure even trying to say, I can't make sense of the world--life is meaningless, so I'm going to make this hard to tell what it means art about it, right, that's still representing something. It's our way of trying to grapple with what we're seeing and experiencing.

[00:02:24] Bryant Williams: Art to me is inspiration. Art to me is vital. I think that's the best--where art is vital and art is a form of expression meant for the world to share in a mutual experience.

[00:02:39] Krista Eyler: I think it's making something from nothing. And no, there's a song called "Finishing the Hat," and it talks about that creation of, you know--I made a hat where there never was a hat, and art to me is really just that. And I'm glad I rhymed those two lines. It's making something from nothing that hopefully will make somebody else feel something very important or have a very visceral, emotional response. I mean, everything I write musically is to reach someone else, is to entertain someone else, is to give, you know, that pleasure in your ears from some really great music and singing.

[00:03:27] That's, that's kind of how I see art. You know what? I'm not a scholar of art. I'm not a scholar of dance. I'm not a scholar of music theory. I'm basically not a scholar of anything except the raising my children, but when it comes to art, I just, I just really feel great satisfaction when you make something that wasn't there before and then it's there, then you've brought it into existence and then you wonder why it was not there before.

[00:03:58] Rick Wright: I feel like to me, you know, it, it's an outlet and an exploration first and foremost, and I think if we're lucky it becomes an end product, but I don't know that that is necessarily the most important. I think there is, there is value in the exploration that, that just happens with all things creative, whether it's dance or it's paint or it's clay. It's about communicating, it's, it's communicating with different materials or in different ways than the verbal or auditory that we're used to. I, I think it's, you know, it's a little bit of your, your soul, you know, uncovering your soul, whether you realize it or not. I think it's about just exposing your, your true self.

[00:04:52] Danielle Guy: Art is expression of truth done a visual way. So where it is taking some form of reality and putting it in a way that can be physicalized, whether it be by, you know, painting or drawing or by moving, or by speaking--just a different way to look at it--that is different from what our normal reality is, which can be quite boring.

[00:05:19] Roman Mykyta: Art is ultimately a worldview. I think art starts with a worldview. It's very intentional and it's very presentational and it's always a form of communication with the creator and the viewer. But where my head is now as well, I kind of feel like art is everywhere around us. Even just looking out the window, the art is within the worldview to be able to see anything and to give it meaning, and it can be good or bad meaning, but I personally always like the good meaning, and to just kind of commune with all of these things in our life, which are indicative of something.

[00:06:02] Erin Paige: Art to me is an expression of the soul. And I think that that just comes in many forms, whether it's a street performer that feels the need--even a little kid that is dancing to some music, I consider that art. So really anything that you're inspired to do that your soul is telling you to do? That's how I see art.

[00:06:33] Elizabeth Cooper: I would say I would define art as a piece of work that someone is inspired by, like someone sees something around them and they're inspired by it and so they want to then recreate it in a way that means something to them. I feel like art is, you know, it's a very personal thing, you know, everybody sees it differently. And so yeah, I guess I would, I would just define art as anything that, that is inspired by the things around you, that then you create something from that inspiration.

[00:07:12] Jeremiah Kauffman: I guess art is any creative process to produce something that's meaningful to the artist and they want it to show up other people. And I don't really, I don't think there are any boundaries to what art is. There are no limitations. And if you produce a sculpture or a performance, choreographic performance, apart, whatever or painting. And someone says, ah, that's not art. If you say it's art, because the creative expression of what you're trying to share with others and it is art. So, I'm not one that looks at a particular, you know, like painting, you know, all right.

[00:07:50] So somebody paints hyper-realistic babies or, or kittens. And someone says, yeah, that's art because that's hyper-realistic. But the, the abstract painting that somebody did --that's not art. That is not true. The abstract painting is just as much art is the cute little kittens. It's just the art is the expression of creativity. That's all it is. I don't think we should pigeonhole art. Art's anything that illustrates emotion from both the artist and the viewer. It's something that entertains and teaches, and something that can be used to make our lives better. It can be something that improves our society or just makes us happy or just helps us feel better about ourselves or helps us. It gives us comfort when we need comfort or gives us inspiration when we need to be inspired, and if it affects and produces all range of emotions. And I think that if there's an emotional response, then that's also art.

[00:09:02] Katheryn Krouse: So I think I would define art as a thoughtful form of expression. I think it doesn't have to necessarily be creating a painting or writing a song or a poem. I think it can also include how you dress or how, how you cook, how someone cooks can be a form of art. I think that it can be anything or any way that one chooses to carry themselves--how, you know, how they decorate or different, different things. I think all of these are good forms of art.

[00:09:40] Heidi Loubser: I think if I'm trying to one sentence to it, I mean, art is the act of creating . You know, we take one resource and we transform it into another. We take a body and we mold it to do certain things on stage. We take clay and we turn it into a sculpture. So maybe, yeah, the act of creating, if I had to boil it down to a phrase.

[00:09:58] David Weinraub: I define art as anything that can enhance an emotion. I can go outside and I can see, you know, a turtle on my back deck who somehow found its way, you know, up the stairs to onto the porch. And, I find beauty in that and therefore that is art. To me, it elicits an emotion when it happens. Some people say that's where they see God in the world. And, I think in some ways, God and art are synonymous.

[00:10:37] Grace Strachan: Well, I think art is in the eye of the beholder. I really believe that. I consider art nature. I consider art beauty. I consider art feelings. I consider art love. I really believe that art is all around us. I don't think we appreciate art the way we should appreciate art. I get very sad when I hear about them taking art out of the schools. I just think that is the most, I don't know how to say it in a very polite way, but wrong. I'll just say it. It's just, it's totally wrong. One of the biggest reasons I, I got into art as a child was because I happened to have a very good school system where we were taught art. And so I took, and then I ended up taking art on, you know, outside of school as well. So I think art is so important and it makes people creative. It helps children blossom in so many ways . And I think we, we tend to not appreciate the art around us. I grew up in a small city in Canada. So I grew up with art all around me, and I've always been, I felt very blessed by that because to have the theater and having that around me, I think gave me a different aspect and a different look on life. I ended up getting into working in theater and doing makeup and, and doing some backstage stuff when I lived in Canada. And that is, that's something that I could never, ever, ever, be lucky enough to repeat again. So I think art is just everywhere and everything.

[00:12:18] Julie Ulstrup: I believe art is an expression and a like a, an interaction between the person who creates it and the person who's looking at it. And it's, it's a shared, it's a shared experience.

[00:12:45] Kevin Dinneen: I think art is, is taking some base components, some raw material and forming that raw material into something that a viewer or listener or someone experiencing that in whatever shape or, or vessel medium that might be, and something that enhances their lives. Whereas you take this, there's a piece of paper and this pen and separately, you glance over it, but you take those things and you combine that into a, into a moving-- I don't mean moving physically, but something that moves the person that sees it. And that is what art is. You have these raw materials that you create an experience from, and I think that's art. And doesn't have to be happy, it doesn't have to be sad. It doesn't have to be hard to understand. It doesn't have to be easy to understand. It's just creating something moving from raw materials.

[00:13:54] Elna VanGreuning: I think art is anything that's so beautiful for the eye that you either wanted to touch it, hear it, see it, you know, and you could even eat it, if it's like, in cake. So it's something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:14:15] Liza Lomax: To me, art is an emotion. it's anger. It's sadness. It's happy. It's frustration. It's irritation. It's gratefulness. It's blessings. When I look at art, I can feel what the artist was portraying at that time because I'm an empath. So looking at art is very impactful for me because I can see it and I can feel what the person was trying to express or trying to convey. You know, there's so many pieces of artwork where people are like, they don't understand it. They don't get it. Like, what is this? It looks just like a bunch of jumbly blobs on a canvas, and I can look at it and I can see what they were feeling and what they were doing and how they were--what they were trying to convey through the art. So to me, it's--art is emotions.

[00:15:11] Trenna Reed: I would say art is human expression, because I guess the way that I think about it is, of all the species on this planet, as far as we know, humans are really the only ones who can convey art and understand art. I guess dogs can watch TV, but you know, they don't really comprehend what's going on, so that, I would say, it's a human expression. And, for me it's just, it's art is love and passion, and it's how we express those emotions or any emotions, which is such an important part of being a human being.

[00:16:09] Kent Rader: Art, art to me is something that you created that is unique to you. And there's a difference in my mind between art and success. Too many people want to be successful, so they recreate something somebody else has created or they mimic something else that somebody else has created. And that isn't art to me. Success, I mean, how do you define success? You know, it's more important that it's unique and that it's personal to me. And I remember a turning point in my life as an artist was stop making it about your success and make it about bringing joy and happiness to an audience. That was a huge turning point, but also it had to be so personal and so come from me. I want it to be so much about my life that nobody else could make it theirs, but they could relate to it as well.

[00:17:18] Meghan Spencer: I think art is communicating to the outside world a feeling emotion or something else you want to say, because it can be tangible. It can be movement. It can be makeup. It can be--there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways that art can take forms, but it's always about communicating something.

[00:17:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Art is an expression of creativity that shares someone's life experiences-- whether that's feelings or situation or dreams-- with the world.

[00:18:14] Robyn Jameson: I would say that I'm a little bit of an art snob. So I consider art anything that is created with the intention for it to be, for its only function to be, presented and appreciated. For me, art is music, poetry, literature, literature, dance, visual art, film. And for me, originality is important.

[00:18:44] Lantz McDonald: To me, I tried to break it down to the simplest terms that I can, 'cause I had thought about this a little bit before we started recording. I would say it's, to me it's an ambiguous expression. And some, some pieces of art are more or less ambiguous, but at the end of the day, you were trying to relay an emotion and there's nothing unambiguous about that. Yeah, I think it's just people trying to express themselves to other people. We all want to be heard and listened to. And this is just one more way to do that.

[00:19:23] Helen Ransom: I have learned over the years, having a sister who dances and having my mom who loves nature photography and myself, I prefer the people side of things. Art is a lot of things to me. And art is walking through the Plaza Art Fair and admiring all the different mediums. And art is watching my sister dance and seeing the way that storytelling can happen that way with no words and just movement. And art is the beauty of nature and the majesty of creation. And art is a smiling toddler, or a mom rubbing noses with her sweet baby. It's all art and it's beautiful. And to me it describes humanity and the world we're living in.

[00:20:16] Crystal Tiehen: Art is a creative outlet. It's an emotional support. It's, it's a way to give ourselves permission to be a child to bring fun into our life, to not have to be so serious all the time and, and really be able to explore that childlike facet of ourselves. And even if it's not childlike, just being able to, to bring something that only you have created into this world. That's what art is.

[00:20:56] Alden Miller: Art is presenting whatever is in your head out to the world. It's like your mind's eye just kind of like showing it, you know, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking about," or "this is what I'm feeling or showing."

[00:21:10] Emerson Mertens: Art, I think, it's so many things. It's, it's kind of hard to pinpoint an exact definition, but I think what stands out to me the most is that art is really a form of communication. So it has that ability kind of, like I said earlier, to connect people. And it has a way of touching people that I think a lot of the normal ways of communication can't always do. So it's a form of communication with others. And I think it's also a form of self-expression, which is, in a way, essentially sort of another form of communication because we're communicating what we think or feel ourselves to others. So I think that's really true of any kind of art, whether it's dance or music or painting or, or graphic arts--it's essentially communicating some idea or feeling, or even maybe an entire story. Like in the case of dance, a lot of times it's an entire story. It's communicating that to the viewer or listener in, in that artist's own unique way. And that can be a really powerful thing.

[00:22:22] Kim Pierce: Well, to me, art is, it's really any creation or expression that provokes thought or a reaction. Every interaction that you have with art is an opportunity to have a silent conversation between you and the artist. The person experiencing it has a dialogue going in their head and the artist has already put something out into the world to discuss back and forth. I want to be a part of that conversation regardless of the role I'm in, whether I'm the person experiencing the art or I'm the artist. And to me, that's art. Art is just something that makes you think, something that makes you have a reaction.

[00:23:03] Anh Le: To me, art is something where for me I can utilize to heal the wounds of society. But it's also a very interesting way of expressing storytelling because I've seen, for example, abstract art, and I'm an artist myself too. So sometimes I see it and I just connected with things maybe, for example, the sun or, or like the womb of someone, every person sees art differently. And, even with one movie, people can say so many things. For example, like, one person can say, "Oh, from this movie, I learned more about domestic abuse and the effects of it." But another person might say, "I've learned about the importance of having a mentor in life." So you can have one movie. It's the same exact story. But so many different takes. And I think art has pursued the same way, because it is a way where we share, we share stories and everyone takes, has different take based on how they were raised, how they were influenced by art and so forth.

[00:24:16] Maggie Rader: Oh, to connect, I'd say. You know, we were joking before we started rehearsing. It's like, "Oh, why does live theater still exist when movies are around?" And if you mess up, you can just start over and you only have to do it once then. But that's why live theater is still around. It's so much about connection. And I feel like out of all the, and maybe that's why I love the stage. It's, I feel like when you're doing live theater, you get to connect so much more than in other artistic mediums that I love, and enjoy, but it's not my particular passion. So yeah, I think the most important role is, or thing you can do, is to connect.

[00:24:57] Tessa Priem: I actually did a presentation that had a lot to do with what is art. And I ended up looking up the various definitions and like, the Oxford dictionary and Miriam Webster. But one thing that really sticks out to me from what I learned just about sort of the definition is, well, first of all, let me back up just a little bit throughout history. This has been debated and continues to be debated. It's such a interesting question because people always have different answers. So I think even the Greek philosophers from long ago, like really examine this question, what is art? So anyway, from the dictionaries, I thought it was so interesting how they really emphasize that the aspect of skill. So developing a skill. And I, I'm not going to go into, you know, your level of that skill or something, but, but you know, whether it be drawing or whether it be dance or whether it be music of some sort, right? So you have this certain skill or craft that you work on and you end up making something in that skill or craft and that what you make expresses something, right. There's some sort. Of purpose behind that making. And then furthermore, beyond that sort of purpose, whatever it might be, that can be so varied.

[00:26:28] It's so varied for each artist, but from that purpose of whatever you've made, usually after that, that work, that creation is often shared with others, usually. Not always, not always, but it's often shared. So those were just some aspects that I thought were really interesting about what is art, you know, it's kind of, it's this skill or craft that people have that people work on and they pour themselves into it and they make whatever it is that they, that they need to create. And often then they share that work. Not always, but, but frequently that's what happens. And then what happens from that is that the audience in some way responds. And so, I guess that's kind of, maybe that's art, it's, it's making something. And then you go on to either just keep it to yourself, which is special, or you go on to, to share that with others to potentially impact others in some kind of way. But it's definitely something that you make -- definitely something that you make.

[00:27:41] Shari Augustine: I think it's different for every person. It's a way of using your creativity to allow your feelings to be put out there without--sometimes you can't say what your feelings are. And so it's a way of allowing your feelings to come out for you. Yeah, or it, it can be putting a message out and everyone might take that message in differently, because we all look at art differently and that's okay.

[00:28:20] Debbie Dinneen: Oh boy, to me, first thing that I think of is anything visual, but you know, art encompasses so much, you know, music, theater, dance. Art is everywhere. Art is when I look out my back door and I see birds on my bird feeder. We're just surrounded. That's how I feel about it.

[00:28:48] Joe Pilgram: Art could be so many different things. you know, for, for me, it's definitely passion. Whether it's, you know, I use art as a way to, to get my emotions out, to be able to dance it out. But other people as an art will sling paint or, you know, do different things. I believe that musician Sting, like the best songs that he wrote when he was with the police, he talked about, it was when it was a really bad time in his life, he and his wife were having problems and some of his best art came out at that moment. And I, I feel that, you know, art is definitely a, a human expression, that, that we all have. I guess I look more at other artists for the guidance in that realm, that it's, you know, it should be something that's explored, that it's something you create. You have people that are, that are machinists that some create some pretty fascinating stuff. 3D printer guys, doing things with that, and I don't know if I know you asked me what, what I think it is. I might throw this little plug in here from Felicia Rashad and it was, she was talking about art and she said, "Children," and she said, "Before they write, they draw. Before they stand, they dance. Art is a human expression. It's a fundamental human expression." And so I, I guess I'd like to hop on her bandwagon with that.

[00:30:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you thoroughly enjoyed all of the answers to the question, "what is art to you?" I love hearing those responses. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I have reliving these moments of inspiration and beauty. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:10] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Sandy Woodson! Sandy is a filmmaker and photographer who recently quit her 9-5 to be a full-time documentarian. She discusses her experiences helping to share the stories of those whose voices have been historically silenced in Kansas City, including in the LBGTQ communities, and also about her passion for widening the audience for all artists in KC, whether they produce art for major companies or for their own small shows. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode displays a tulip flag from Womontown, which you can read more about in the full episode notes.)

Get in touch with Sandy Woodson: sandywoodson12@gmail.com

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

More about Sandy's project "Womontown:" In the late 1980s, Drea Nedelsky and Maryann Hopper had a vision. They imagined a neighborhood where they could be themselves without fear, a place where women could walk hand in hand down the street without the judgments and criticisms normally encountered in the straight world. Drea picked the Longfellow / Dutch Hill neighborhood from 30th to 27th, Harrison to Charlotte, because it was cheap. This was a neighborhood that had once housed Kansas City's elite but had fallen on hard times by the time the 80s rolled around. Drea saw the economic benefits and security home ownership could provide and wanted to make that available for the people like them who were on the edges of society and faced countless discriminations not only because they were lesbians but because they were women. In the late 80s and early 90s, a woman in Kansas City could not get a home loan on her own. She needed a parent or husband to cosign. Being handy, Drea had no fear buying a house with no windows, electricity or plumbing even though it was next to an apartment building that housed drug dealers. Drea could see a future of like-minded women, buying these beat up, cheap houses and helping each other fix them up to make homes. So Drea and Maryann put the word out and lesbians from all over the United States responded by coming to KC, buying houses and setting up a new community. As an organized effort, it lasted about 5 years, but the ripple it created is something that 30 years later can still be seen and felt.

Episode 73 - Sandy Woodson

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sandy Woodson. She is a documentarian, which I am so excited to hear all about how that journey came about. But thank you so much for being here, Sandy. I'm really excited to talk with you about art.

[00:02:35] Sandy Woodson: I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the invite.

[00:02:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, absolutely. Well, Sandy, you know, you and I met through Kansas City Fringe Festival, which I have talked about many, many times on this podcast because I think it's such a special thing. But I would love if you wouldn't mind, maybe we could start there, sharing a little bit about how you've helped the festival over the years and even your own participation and then go from there.

[00:03:01] Sandy Woodson: Okay. Yeah, it was somewhere around 2009 or 2010. We haven't really been able to remember between Cheryl and I, but early on, I was in a freelance mode. I was contracting with KCPT or KCPS. But I was just contracting and I had some open time and somehow or another, I think I first talked to Cheryl because I wanted to create an app that all the festivals in Kansas City could be listed on. I knew through the film festival, Kansas City Film Festival, introduced me to Cheryl to talk about that. And then as always, you know, if you talk to Cheryl, you become a volunteer pretty quickly for the Fringe Festival. So that's what happened. And at the time I had extra time, so I got involved with, you know, I jumped in with both feet and also, that was the first time I really started displaying photography. I've always been interested in it. I've always had it as a hobby. And I actually did some photography for Fringe that year. I believe it was that year. And I've pretty much done it every year since then. I haven't been as involved in the last couple of years, but in all the years leading up to that, I was pretty involved in the organization side of it.

[00:04:17] Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. Yeah. And, oh my gosh, I know you, you know, basically once, well, even beforehand, but certainly once the festival starts, you're hitting the ground running like literally almost 24/7.

[00:04:30] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. For a lot of years, it was like that. And then, like I say, the last couple of years, I kind of stepped back a little bit because my work started to get more intense. And so I didn't have as much time as I used to.

[00:04:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. Well, are you planning to still, you know, participate in some ways and, and continue to exhibit your own work?

[00:04:53] Sandy Woodson: Yeah, absolutely. And hoping to get now that I'm not nine to five, full-time somewhere. I'm hoping to get more involved with the festival next year, too. I'm happy that it looks like we're going to be able to meet in person again. That'll be awesome.

[00:05:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, hallelujah. I'm so ready for that. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you for sharing a little bit about that. And then, you know, specifically with your artwork, do you want to share what you kind of focus on as far as your photography?

[00:05:26] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. So early on, my big thing was kind of spawned by the fact that I've, you know, had the way I put it-- I went to one too many bad photography exhibits where it's nothing but naked women. And I was like, so where all the naked men, you know, so I kind of got started on that path and did that for quite a few years. I was helped by that with not only Fringe where I could literally post, you know, or hang whatever kind of photos I want to do. At the time April McInerney, who I love, had a gallery called Slap and Tickle Gallery. And so she really opened things up for me. There was one time where she let me take over the whole gallery space and I hung, I had probably four or five different themes or years of work that I hung up. And then I set up a little area with rope and stanchion and a TV and a recliner and a cooler. And I said, I had a sign that said the "North American Male in his Native Habitat." And I had different guys show up every half hour to sit in the chair and do whatever they wanted to do. I was like, I don't care what you do. We just kind of want to here's guys. And here's what they do because that kind of went with the theme of all the photography I'd been doing the years leading up to that.

[00:06:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and that is an interesting thing. Again, native habitat. I like it. Yeah. And what a cool opportunity to get to take over that gallery, so to speak and that's awesome.

[00:06:56] Sandy Woodson: Oh yeah, she was so awesome. I mean, she let the gallery go a few years ago. But you know, with Fringe, I was always able to do two sets of photography every year because they had a blue gallery or the gallery where the naked stuff went and so for Fringe, I'd always have something everybody could see and then something people not everybody could see. And April, her gallery, it was like whatever I wanted to put in there. Yeah, so it was an awesome time. And in the years since then, particularly in the last couple of years, I have been documenting LGBT history in Kansas City or what I'm hoping, you know, history in the making, things that are happening now that in the future, hopefully somebody will want to look back at and see, but so that's mostly what I've been doing with my photography since I haven't. Since Fringe has been virtual-- well I say that-- this last Fringe, I hung ballroom photos, and I can talk about that too. That's one of my documentary, documentary projects that I'm kind of working on.

[00:08:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. I'd love to hear about that.

[00:08:07] Sandy Woodson: Well, and when you hear ballroom, people think of men and women dancing in a kind of a formal way. This is more the African-American trans community ballroom. And like, if you ever saw the documentary, "Paris is Burning," from the eighties or what really kind of brought it all back up was the "Pose" series that was on FX, I think. And that's really how I got to know the people in Kansas City that are part of that community is I went to that screening. They were screening it at Tapcade, a weekly show for, I don't know, 6, 7, 8 weeks. And so I would go and, and I started to meet the people who do ballroom in Kansas City. And they've been very nice in letting me. There was a ball two years ago that they let me videotape and photograph. And for Fringe this last year is when I hung those ballroom photos. So that's been a big interest of mine over these last couple of years.

[00:09:06] And I met Michael Robeson, who was co-creator of "Pose" because he's related in the ballroom community to a guy here in Kansas City named Xavier and Xavier is actually the Grandfather of Ballroom in Kansas City. So anyway, it's been an awesome experience. The people I've met are amazing and very kind and letting me poke my nose in their business. And now that COVID is getting better. I hope to get a couple of more. You know, recordings of balls that I know are coming up.

[00:09:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. How exciting and what a cool opportunity. And it's great that you're keeping track of, of history there because, you know, we, we would want to be able to look back on that and really, you know, dive in. So yeah. Yeah. I definitely think so and well, and that's a perfect segue. I know you've had, you know, a really amazing career in a lot of different ways and venues and all sorts of fun stuff. But I know now you're kind of on a, on your own trajectory again, you know, as far as I know, not working for other, for a specific other person anymore or other company. And so, you mind sharing a little bit about your kind of dreams and plans for your future?

[00:10:30] Sandy Woodson: There are so many right now. I'm just loving everything right now. So I worked at KCPBS off and on for the last 25 years or so. And there were two other times where I went freelance and contracted with the station and did some other things that I was working on at the time. So this time I, the station had approved me, given me the go-ahead to do a Womontown documentary. And I can explain that topic in a second. And so what I did is I got all of it, everything's shot and kept not being able to spend the time editing it because my full-time job was too crazy for me to be able to do that. So I was going to buy a house. I took some money out of my retirement account, the house didn't come through. And I was like, "Hey, I got enough money in there. I could live for a while off of that." So that's what I'm doing. And I have four documentary projects ahead of me.

[00:11:29] Well, and, and if you don't mind, I'd like to explain. I mean, so a couple of years ago for Fringe, I was in San Francisco. I was walking down the street and in the sidewalk, I saw a heart with two men's names in it, and I thought, "Wow, I've never seen that before." And it got me started down a path of trying to document men who'd been together 20 years. And I did that as a photography project. I did audio- recorded interviews with these men as to how they met, their favorite things about each other. I was keeping it short and sweet because when you were at Union Station looking at the photos, you could scan a QR code and it would go to the site where you could listen to their interview. So when I was interviewing them, all of them had had met at the Cabaret Bar. And I started hearing about the Cabaret, which I'd never been to. When the Cabaret was around, I was, you know, living north of the river and having kids. So I didn't really know anything about it and got very interested in that.

[00:12:33] And then somewhere down the line, I decided I wanted to talk about HIV aids in the eighties because I didn't, you know, I know people have done documentaries on that for other parts of the country, but not for here in Kansas City. So I got excited about doing that. And then I was talking to Rashaan Gilmore and he's like, "This is not just a history thing in my community. This is happening now." Because in the African-American community, if the rate continues as it is from what he told me, there will come a time where one out of every two African-American men will be HIV positive. So it became the history and the current state of HIV/AIDS in Kansas City.

[00:13:16] So because I'm straight and I don't know anything or didn't know anything at that time, a couple of years ago when I first started this, I just started meeting people, talking to people. I'm talking about the Cabaret, talking about what it was like to be gay in Kansas City in the early days, what's it like now. I started documenting Drag Queens and female impersonators and that met the ballroom community, started documenting that. So it's just kind of taken off from there. And I think for me, I'm real passionate about this because I feel like the people in the LGBT community until somewhat recently, it wasn't safe for people to be coming out. So all of this history that's gone on for all of these decades, very little documenting has been done about it, particularly with video. And I started partnering with the Gay and Lesbian Archive of Mid-America with Stewart Heinz and just meeting tons of people. And so that's been, that's how all of that kind of got started.

[00:14:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm so glad that you're choosing to tell stories that are, have traditionally not been told and, you know, historically have been sort of, like you said, kind of underground, hidden, whatever. You just didn't talk about it. So I think it's, it's cool that, that your endeavor is to, you know, meet these people and tell their stories.

[00:14:43] Sandy Woodson: Well, and it's been really awesome for me. I mean, I'm glad that I was doing all of this on my own and, you know, outside of my full-time job and, you know, because of that, it has been a couple of years since I really began all of this, but you know, still in all it's, you know, there are still people who are afraid to talk about it. There are people who are afraid of talking about HIV/AIDS. There's, I mean, the thing that blew me away when I started thinking about it was every person I spoke to about the HIV/AIDS crisis and about those early days, they started to cry. I mean, it's, it's one of these things that no, it's almost been 40 years and nobody's really talked about it. You know? They, it's not a general topic of conversation and it's just kind of a, such a sad thing that it's not talked about as much. And I think it's, it's almost like opening a wound. And I've asked people when they've gotten teary, whether they regret having agreed to talk to me. And they said, "Actually, it's kind of therapeutic." So 'cause they hadn't thought about it or talked about it in almost 40.

[00:15:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Wow. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's, that's great that you're doing that and, and yeah, telling your personal story really does matter to someone who's willing to listen and not just listen, but like, ask questions, and "how was this experience for you and be empathic and that's, that's cool. So, awesome. Well so I'm, I'm curious then-- so going back, what got you involved in art and photography and all of those things, you know, at, at the beginning, what got, what sparked your interest?

[00:16:32] Sandy Woodson: Well my dad does photography and so growing up, I was always looking at photography books and museums and artwork and reading. And my grandma, one of my grandmas painted. So there was always a lot of that for me when I was growing up and, but I got, I got pregnant and married very early at 18. And so-- well I was going to say things were put on hold, but they weren't. I got, I went right into theater at that point and got very involved in sets and props and doing tech backstage, sound and lights, and anything and everything really. I just loved being involved in theater and I love the process and the team effort that goes into it. And I just loved everything about it, but at one point 10 years later, I was going through a divorce and I thought, "Oh, I'll never make any money in theater. So I better stop that."

[00:17:33] And I went into video and I started in corporate video. But all the things that I had learned in theater, some of those things translated, you know, these still need costumes, you still need props. You still need sets. You still need to organize how this all is going to come about and schedule people and crews and all of that. So that's how I became a video producer. And, but I didn't really do much except, you know, like I say, kind of playing around as a hobby with, with photography or writing or any of that until I got involved with Fringe, which was another 10, 20 years after that. And it's because, you know, as you know, Fringe is so accepting and they're all about, you know, we're not expecting everything to be perfect all the time. I started to understand what it means, what it means to go through the process. I mean, you have to get doing to grow and Fringe is so accepting of all of that, then it made me feel comfortable enough to start trying to do some things a little more seriously when it came to photography.

[00:18:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I'm, I'm such a big proponent of the Fringe Festival concept of, you know, these are unjuried, uncensored projects or shows that are being put forth. And so it is a very welcoming audience of, you know, it's, it doesn't have to be perfect the first time or, you know, you can experiment at Fringe and still have ,yeah, and still have such a great audience. And their feedback is so helpful, but you know, they're, they're there with you cheering you on, I would say. And so it's a really place to produce art.

[00:19:24] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And like you say, to experiment. I mean, I've seen people try a lot of different things that they wouldn't have any other place to do that.

[00:19:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. I completely agree. Yeah. So I'm curious, I'm sure that there are many moments that might come to mind, but are there any specific stories that you can think of, of times of when either you were witnessing some artwork that really touched you or you witnessed someone witnessing your artwork and, and sort of a story of, of maybe those moments to remember, just because they're really special?

[00:20:00] Sandy Woodson: Well, the most recent one that I can remember is, I went with a group of people to Italy and I'm a huge museum freak. I just love museums. I could spend all day in museums, not only because of the artwork, but they're just as a whole, they're very peaceful, beautiful places. So, but we went to-- gosh, what was the guy's name? It was some famous Italian guy, it was his villa. And I saw the Botticellis. They're like 10 foot tall by 10 foot or 20 feet wide. And it was "Spring Primavera," which I think I've always thought of as a Venus in a half shell or something. I saw that and another one and I was just like, "This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen." And, you know, I actually felt the same way one time when I was in Amsterdam and saw Van Gogh. There is --it's called "Apple Blossoms". I think it's "Apple Blossoms" and it was the first time I'd ever seen it. Now, since then, I see it all over the place in posters. I have an iPad that has a cover that has that artwork on it.

[00:21:08] But I realized as much as I see this artwork in books, it is nothing to compare to when you get to actually see it in person. And the Van Gogh was one of the first-- well, my first and all of these happened in Europe. I know there are things in Kansas City that I've seen at the Nelson that every time I go, I have to go by and look at it. But the ones that made the biggest impact were the ones in Europe, because I had a whole series of books on art museums. And I would just go through those things over and over again. And to see these things in person just blew me away. So, oh gosh. And "Winged Victory." I love sculpture. "Winged Victory" at the Louvre just stopped me in my tracks to just-- things like that, that you just see them, it's like, "Oh my God. That's beautiful."

[00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. I, I agree is it's like, I mean, I can definitely relate to what you're saying about, you know, artwork and seeing it in person and the originals and such versus a photo. And I feel that way about art in general is just, if you can experience it live, there's nothing like that. It's so much better than, you know, it incorporates your senses and you just have these special-- I think it's cool too, because you often have-- I mean, I have many times gone to an art museum by myself and wandered around and, you know, enjoyed it thoroughly. But I think some of my favorite moments are connecting with people with art. I think that's a really special moment, you know?

[00:22:43] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. And a lot of that for me is more like when I'm going to a play or going to an art movie or something that, yeah, there's definitely-- you can't compare watching it at home on TV or listening to it by yourself at home then that communal... That's I always love Shakespeare in the Park here in Kansas City. I love that, you know, all of us sitting outside and usually dying of heat, but you know, I, I really liked those experiences too.

[00:23:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has really been a lot of fun. I have a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:23:24] Sandy Woodson: Sure.

[00:23:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, what is one change that you would like to see in the art world? Whether that is, you know, specifically through one of the mediums that you have enjoyed and, and worked on over the years or whether that's like, you know, art in general, just what's one change you'd really love to see?

[00:23:48] Sandy Woodson: I don't think-- probably because my experience with Fringe, I get really tired of the fact that we in this community, we seem to focus on what is considered "high art." You know, it's not like I dislike any of these people or anything, but I'm just going to say it, you know, with the Ballet and Opera and Symphony, those people get enough support. I mean, I know they need to raise money every year, but when you're looking at these artists that are part of the Fringe Festival to me, that's real art, you know, and I don't think it gets enough attention and I think people poo poo it. And I think I've seen some of the most amazing things.

[00:24:28] There was something I saw that Kyle Hatley did. I think it was called "Head" one of my first few years at Fringe. And I, I was so blown away by it. You see amazing things being done by high-end artists in Kansas City during Fringe, and they're just as amazing there as they are anywhere else. And they're helping to support their friend who's writing a play for the first time or somebody who's doing some choreography for the first time. And, and, and /or people like Kyle Hatley who wanted to experiment with a play idea that he had. So I just, to me, that's where the real art is, and I don't think it gets enough attention.

[00:25:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that answer. And yeah, attention and funding, I think are our biggest complaints.

[00:25:16] Sandy Woodson: One comes with the other. You get the attention first and then hopefully the funding.

[00:25:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, exactly. And then also, is there something arts related that you've wanted to try? Maybe another form of art, but you just haven't yet. Or, you know, it's kind of been intimidating to, to start. What's one other art thing that you'd love to do?

[00:25:38] Sandy Woodson: Absolutely. When I saw-- well first I saw it here-- Nick Cave did it during open spaces using multiple projections. And then I saw it when I was in France. That was an experience with-- in fact, right now there's something going on in Kansas City with Van Gogh, that's doing multiple projections in a space. But the one in France was an old hollowed out quarry with 50 foot walls. And I don't even know how many projectors they had in there, but anyway, it was such an amazing-- that kind of an immersive experience. I love projections, Stephen Goldblatt, who does this stuff for quixotic. I love that. I think it adds so much to the performance when, when they use those projections. So video projection is probably something I would like to try at some point.

[00:26:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that sounds awesome. I did see an ad for that Van Gogh experience and I was like, "Oh man, I, I, if I can get up there, I'm have to do it."

[00:26:38] Sandy Woodson: Yes.

[00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's one art-related experience that you would want to experience again for the last time?

[00:26:52] Sandy Woodson: Gosh, I mean, to me, I almost see art everywhere. I mean, I love architecture. I love fashion. I love jewelry design. There's so many things I love. Probably it would have to be going back to the Louvre, maybe? The last time I went, I dedicated two full days to going top to bottom. That was freaking stunning. So I'd probably try to go there one more time.

[00:27:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's on my a definite bucket list. I haven't, I haven't made it there yet, but it's coming.

[00:27:27] Sandy Woodson: You got to go to Napoleon's apartments. I also love furniture and decorative arts, and good lord, that stuff was amazing.

[00:27:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah, no, I will definitely have to do that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories and know what you're up to and, and all these exciting things, I'm just, I'm so thrilled for you. I'm glad you're in a place where you can really follow these passions of telling people's stories that need to be told. So I think this is really cool and congratulations on this new adventure. And is there a way for people to stay in touch with you or if they have questions or anything like that, is there a way for them to connect with you?

[00:28:08] Sandy Woodson: Sure. You can email me at Sandy Woodson, S A N D Y W O O D S O N12@gmail.com.

[00:28:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you so very much, Sandy, for everything that you have brought to the world. Thank you so much for continuing to explore art and to share people's stories and to be a voice for those that haven't had that opportunity. And thank you again so much for being here today. And to everyone who has listened to this episode, if you're feeling inspired by it, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:28:52] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:01] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's episode, I welcome Giovanna Salas! Giovanna likes to create, and she has dabbled in and become proficient in multiple medias, including art, literature, and film. She is the founder and owner of Heart of Hollywood Magazine and Motion Pictures, and in this episode, she shares about the importance of making opportunities more accessible for artists along with her heart and passion for helping others' succeed. (Double fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is not only a recent cover of Giovanna's Heart of Hollywood magazine, but it also featured Sandy Rodriguez, one of our former guests!)

Get in touch with Giovanna Salas: https://www.heartofhollywoodmagazine.com/ | https://www.hohmp.com/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

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Episode 72 - Giovanna Salas

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Giovanna Salas. She likes to create, and she has dabbled in and become proficient in many multiple medias, including art, literature, and film. She also is the founder and owner of Heart of Hollywood Magazine and Motion Pictures. And she also has a streaming platform that is in development, I believe. And I can't wait to dive in and hear all about the different things that you are up to. So thank you so much for being here. I really look forward to our conversation today.

[00:02:57] Giovanna Salas: Hi Lindsey!

[00:03:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi! Well, I was wondering if you don't mind just starting us off by telling us maybe a little bit about your background, how you got involved in art and kind of go from there.

[00:03:11] Giovanna Salas: Absolutely. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for inviting me to your podcast. It's a pleasure for me to be here and well to make a story short, I started as a painter. You know, I, I love art. I use that oil media. That's that's my favorite. And one thing take to the other, I am visual person. And so I dive into learning photography and video. And so I have an interest later on into becoming a filmmaker. And so that's how everything is.

[00:03:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Okay. And so then you decided to become a filmmaker, which is a huge endeavor and undertaking. So can you tell us about that and what led you to that interest in that passion to create even your own company?

[00:03:59] Giovanna Salas: Well, I wanted to become a film director. And so once I came to Hollywood, I saw there was very difficult. It's a lot of difficulties. And in word, it was not going to be easy. And the best way was to learn the business and learn what happened behind the scenes. So I began working with a couple productions and after that, I decided it was time to open my own company because I wanted to bring opportunities for people, they just started. Artists are underground, I feel. They, also people that were foreigner. Okay. And so for everyone, I just wanted to make it a place they have a door open for everyone that they need. It.

[00:04:47] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. And so now with your company, and I realized that there are three sort of branches to it. Can you tell us a little bit about each one and sort of who you, you serve as a result of the different branches and, and how that all works together?

[00:05:04] Giovanna Salas: Sure. So, well, the company is called Heart of Hollywood Motion Pictures. And from that we had three different divisions. The first division, that's how we started in post-production. So the services that we offer was like color corrections, you know, edit of scoring. We've put together different individuals working in the industry and sometimes here and there, you know, behind the scenes, maybe a project that was already done, but they needed to do something where we can help with some of those services. And also giving consultations such as like screenplays, you know, like a script doctor, I had different consultants. So sometimes I do consultations, but it's more like a producer restructure. And we have a modern consultant. So it's along, all the kind of what it takes to, to get your, your project or package in a, in a better format. I think that's, that's the first one.

[00:06:01] The second one is that the vision for the Heart of Hollywood Magazine. And this has started because we want, we have members within the company and we're gonna, we want it to give more exposure to the members. Well, when we published the first magazine, everybody was very positive about and now that became three years of publications. So we are very happy of what we're going. And I believe that the magazine is like a car for everyone to share the stories, get into the car and get more exposure. But also the purpose of this magazine is for our to get inspiration and motivated.

[00:06:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then the third branch is something you're still in development for, or is that also live?

[00:06:51] Giovanna Salas: No, we, well, I mean, working the third is a, an a streaming platform of Heart of Hollywood Cinema, and I been working with my engineer team. And it's not easy. It's been for a couple of years, like I say, but we have tested. We created last year. We tested with production. The, I was a producer for a, the Brain 19 Fashion Films. Okay. We did it virtually during COVID and we use the streaming platform to for, for the films. So I think it would take us a little bit longer to, to make it available for all the public, but the finally will be an option for all the filmmakers. They need to put their films in other platform. It's good to have different platforms such as, you know, Amazon and Netflix and all of that other ones that we already know. But it's also good to have another option and where you can put your films as well.

[00:07:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. Well, it sounds like you are making such a difference for so many different people in so many areas, so yeah. Kudos to you for doing that. That's just amazing. And, you know, you mentioned at the beginning that you personally felt like it was, and I'm sure you're not alone, that it was really difficult to to kind of get into that world. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about your own story of how, you know, some of the challenges that you faced as you were starting off in Hollywood?

[00:08:27] Giovanna Salas: Well, I will say one of my first challenges was the language because my first language is not English. It's a Spanish. And so I think the not, I didn't grow in the US, like I came here and I start, you know, working here in the entertainment. And one thing that I know is, is if you don't have connections in LA or people working in the industry, it's very difficult. And a lot of those connections are not easy to build. You have to be in the right place, meet the right people that have family members sometimes. And sometimes you don't, you don't have, you know, family members, so you don't have any connection. So, and then you have the problem with an artist trying to showcase but nobody wants to listen. So I think the why, because people pay more attention. I go rather with a person that has 30 more years experience or 20 years experience, or how are they going to get the experience if they don't get the chance to showcase what they can do or what they can bring to the table?

[00:09:34] And so my, I don't, I feel there is not many companies that perhaps are really seriously approaching this issue. And at the beginning of my company, my number one priority was to approach this issue, was to make an statement that this company, it was going to be for the artist that needed. Yes, we're welcoming everyone. There is very well-known, you know, celebrity or a producer, but I think that we all, as artists, we have a responsibility and especially with work in the entertainment about helping all of them, it's about bringing that talent. Otherwise, we cannot move forward.

[00:10:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think that's incredible. Thank you for sharing that story. And I love what you're doing because I've not personally been in that particular world, but, you know, as an artist, as well, I certainly understand some of that initial struggle of kind of getting basically getting your, especially your first job, because that can be, you know, the most challenging and because you know, you're new and I understand that. So yeah, no, that's incredible what you all do. And so congratulations on all of your success and the fact that it just keeps growing and growing is, is huge. That's so exciting.

[00:11:01] Giovanna Salas: Yes. I feel very happy about what everything that has been developing and working. And I can tell you how many times I, I thought about quitting, closing the company, not pursuing because it was so many challenges. So the beginning, I just was myself and my ideas and my beliefs, and if what's going to work or not, and my personal finances. So it was a lot of the things to take into consideration. Also to make sure the, I, I do not fit all. There are people, you know, you have family members, you have things all around there, and sometimes all those things can work against you. But if you truly have the passion and that desire to see a three-year vision and you want to pursue that. Don't give that, that don't, don't stop. You have to, to make it happen because otherwise I don't think they, eh, we can end up truly happy. And every, every morning when I wake up, I feel very happy or what I'm doing.

[00:12:09] I feel happy that through the years I am developing a team, you know, a more people and I had to train them. I had to explain, and I had to, for example, with the magazine, it's a thing behind it. And then I have a graphic designer. Sometimes it's new. Sometimes I had to explain a lot of things. Sometimes I had to train a customer representative that share, you know, who we are, but in a way, not of we are selling our market. And we, I just tried to tell him, you know, we are dealing with relationships with, with people. And, and I think that, that it has to be community. And so I never taught the, I will be sending magazines in another state, so, or even in another countries. And so that to me is incredible because the first time that I decided to make the magazine, I made the first magazine and it took me seven months just to plan, to get to the first draft in order to communicate my ideas to a graphic designer. And then looking for a team is not an easy challenge. You had to see many people strive to see who sees this issue and who just wants a job for a job, you know, who really cares or not.

[00:13:27] And so I would say that in my theme, everyone is not this. My magazine editor is amazing. The contributors are, you know what I can say. They have seen something in the magazine. They wanted to be part of it. We just did a cover shoot in the Netherlands with a whole production team. We have the videos behind the scenes. So you guys want to watch it on the website. Is there any, so other, other things coming along. And so I'm constantly working. I think that would be one of the first ones say I would like to get a clone. But anyway. So I think my one thing that is very important to me right now is my time. I believe the time is very precious. You have to be very careful. You have to think about who you were spending your time with, who you are given your time, and make sure that that time is viable because sometimes people think that what we have time and the truth is that we don't, what we don't have is time.

[00:14:28] And so every second, and every minute and you know, doing hours. I think we should try to enjoy ourselves. We should try to do those simple things about walking outside, you know, create an art. And when I started in the entertainment, I, I quit painting pretty much. I mean, not completely. I would make a painting once in a while or once every three months and not long ago because of the COVID and everything that has happened. I was feeling, I am very positive person. I always encouraging the people to do things and helping them in the projects, giving consultations. And then not long ago, like three months ago I started feeling depressed. I started feeling, what am I doing, where my life is going, like what I need to do, you know?

[00:15:21] And so I started to paint again and I started to write as well, and I felt I gained a life and this is important for me because if I'm okay, and I can be a creative person as well, and then I can be more productive for my clients, I can be more productive for the team and for the company. And so, because I'm a workaholic, so I saw marriage my time, like working all the time and, and just lately I'm also beginning to learn and understand to take some time for me for, I can be more productive for all.

[00:15:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And that is such an important realization to come to. I'm so glad that you're prioritizing yourself because you're absolutely right. You can't pour into someone else's life with an empty cup, so you have to start full yourself and, and so I'm so glad that you're doing that and prioritizing. That is so, so important. And again, you are just doing such amazing things for people. And so I'm, I'm curious, do any stories in particular come to mind of maybe people that you've helped, clients that you've helped that, you know, really may not have had a different opportunity had you not been there?

[00:16:39] Giovanna Salas: Yes. I, I, I feel very happy with the, with the people that I have work. So one of the, in our, my team members, I think, eh, they sometimes when people come in and work for my company and things like that, I always tell them, you know, you have other opportunities or, or, or job opportunities and they can, you can you know, at that. Yes. So let me know, you know, and some in that happen and I feel very bad, you know, but at the same time, if they can grow better, you know, I I'm happy with that. That's, that's part of the team members. I always feel very sentimental when, you know, someone goes to another company. It is like that. And the reason is perhaps because one day I will be able to have their resources for my team. Right. And sometimes so they're big, big, big companies, you know, they, they do have those resources, but that's all about timing and about we, we maintain very good communication.

[00:17:35] I like to, you know, be be in contact with, with everyone that has been part of the company, because I see them as family. For, for my clients, I have helped different people, like all the way from like models, I have helped. Well, one of them that I remember, I I was working with an actress and she wanted to have a manager, and at the time I was working with, with a talent, talent and management company. So I was helping her and, but I was producing something else. And then she got curious about that. And so I trained her to be a casting director. Lately I was working with a client and when he asks for consultations, you know, kind of personal coaching and his personality is great and he can do multiple, multiple things, but sometimes when you do multiple things, it's hard to focus and one thing, right.

[00:18:30] Or what it will make you some type of income or how the finances. So he found me on LinkedIn and he approached me. And I go, look, yes, I can, I will do a consultation, but I had to charge a fee because right now my time is very important. So I sent in an email is very, very professional, and oh, my! Well, I was surprised he did took the consultations. We worked for a couple months together and he organized his acting career. He, I helped him to do an structure for a podcast. I thought I helped him to do the structure of the memberships, how to, you know, get the, his packages and all of that and making company. So I'm not, I like to develop structures and business models. And so he was very happy. He's, he really just became a big supporter of my company telling all their people how they, he feels great about, about the consultation. That those were his words. Yeah. Yeah. For the magazine. Yes, this is a producer, eh, they told me that his, that his film, his documentary film, it was getting better and more publicity after he was published in our magazine.

[00:19:49] So the local newspaper from his state decided to do an interview with, with him and, you know, sales are going up and things like that. So we hear a lot of good feedback from clients, eh, besides to, you know, get a publication in our magazine. And that makes me very happy because one thing that I want is also the advertisement that we put there. I always suggest, you know, make sure that whatever, even in our own articles there, the information is clear. It's focused, it's inspirational and is useful because if it is not useful, people not going to pay attention.

[00:20:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, like you said, you have to choose how to spend your time and you have to be wise about it. I mean, like you said, until you have your clone, you're just one person. I'm so glad that you have a team to, to help support you now, though, that that's such a, what, what a relief.

[00:20:42] Giovanna Salas: Oh, and that was very hard. It was very hard to find a theme and it was very hard to find the consultants. It, it just, it took me probably like a year, a year and a half to, to put that together because people comes and goes and, but if someone shares they, and they are, they are good in what they do and they want to pursue what they want to do best as a part of a team is incredible. Magic happens, things happen, and everybody is happy. Yeah. And I, I'm very trying to be very social, fun, you know, I always ask, "how do you feel, how do you feel working with me? What would you suggest? Can you brainstorm?" So I like to have that interaction with, with the thing that I have, because there is not better way to know if you are doing something proper or offering good services to the audience, your own team doesn't like it or like it, right?

[00:21:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that's, that's good. Again, I'm glad you have, you have good people to cheer you on. I am curious-- is, are there any moments that kind of stand out to you, that have an encounter with art, whether it was, you know, you experiencing someone else's art or watching somebody experience something that you've created that really kind of is a moment to remember?

[00:22:15] Giovanna Salas: Yes. Yes. Well, several moments to remember.

[00:22:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, for sure.

[00:22:21] Giovanna Salas: To be honest with you, but the, I have I guess was when someone requests me to paint something for them. That's a very special moment for me because I started as a painter and, I, at that time years ago, my dream was just to become an oil painter, go to France and live like an artist. But all the things change it and I wanted to now being the entertainment and I'm doing this because I know I can do it. I know I can help others. And that's very important in, but I think that going back it, when someone see something and my artwork, that's very special to me, that means something.

[00:23:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I I'm sure that there are going to be some of our listeners who would love to reach out to you or get involved with your work or, or at least follow what you do. Is there a way for us to connect with you?

[00:23:28] Giovanna Salas: They can go to the Heart of Hollywood Magazine dot com. They can go also to H O H M P, which is our productions for production. One of the, one of the things that I want to mention now that we're talking about art, it's been eight years probably that I have not make a proper, eh, exhibition, art, art exhibition. So, and I'm preparing, I'm painting new artwork is completely different from what I have painted in the past and I'm going to make an art exhibition, in Los Angeles on 2022 in March and the location, we're looking for a location and all of that. But I would like to invite everyone to go to the art show.

[00:24:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how exciting. That is so exciting. And you said in March is when you want to do that?

[00:24:19] Giovanna Salas: Yes, I am planning to, well, you will be the first one. I'm going to send you a link for that in a yes, because this it's so much, it's so much that I'm being, I'm keeping for myself during this time. And it has been a very challenges years. And I will like to share not just my mind, but also my heart with people and with the with those ones, they have a love for.

[00:24:50] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's, that's really special. Good. Well, I'm excited about that too. So thank you for all of those links that we can go and check out. And I do have a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that?

[00:25:04] Giovanna Salas: Of course.

[00:25:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So my first question is what is a change that you would like to see happen in the art world? Whether that's, you know, about creating art or displaying art or or making it available to people or basically what's, what's one thing that you would love to change about the art world?

[00:25:30] Giovanna Salas: Hmm. That's a difficult one. I think there, I would like to see more united platforms of artists where they can come together. I'm trying to, we, we added a section in our magazine for artists they will like to sell their paintings or their sculptures or some sort of art, okay, media in the magazine. And so, but I would like to know. I think it needs to be more opinions for, for artists where they can display their artwork besides being in the galleries. But through that a little bit more with respect, because sometimes when you see our work in restaurants or see artwork in coffee shops, you really don't get an appreciation for the art. Sometimes you really pay attention. But I don't think that the public is, has information. So I, I, one thing that I would change I guess, is if it is a coffee shop, if it is a place or a location where there is not the, the location is not a gallery, but you want to exhibitit artwork, I think that there is a way to do it and it can be helpful for the artist and it can be helpful for the business.

[00:26:56] So I believe that that can be something that is possible and to be done, but I think that those businesses that have those artwork in the locations, they should do like kind a spotlight on the, on the artist or make it a little bit more visual for the clients to see that in half of their operation. Because I think the ones that are they so powerful, the ones that you are in that, that they are in the wall of the restaurant, the coffee shop, boutique, or anything like that, it, you think that it's just part of the wall. You think they're just part of that, because it just kind of belongs in. I don't know how to explain it. It just was meant to be there or something like that.

[00:27:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:27:44] Giovanna Salas: But it's, but it has a, so that's why another is bad. It's actually very good, but that's why I believe there needs to be more on spotlight of the artwork and say, "Hey, you know, we do have these, you know, feature or something, you know, a newsletter." Because I don't see that much. The other day I enter into a coffee shop. I saw some paintings from a local artist here in Hollywood. He was doing more like an, a street artwork. It was painting people crossing the street, Hollywood signs, things like that. But I thought it was pretty cool. And I didn't see like an expo, like of the artists in that location. And so anyway, I know it took me a while, but I was thinking I have to give you a better response. And I think that, that w that would be the one I think, I think they, the locations can do much better.

[00:28:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I think that's a great response and I absolutely agree with you. Okay. And then my second question is, is there a form of art that you have personally not tried yet either just because you haven't had time or you felt intimidated or whatever reason but that you would love to explore at some point?

[00:28:57] Giovanna Salas: Yes, it is one form of art that I would like to explore and that would be sculpture. And I think it would be more of that time if I had the time to do it. But that always interests me.

[00:29:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Nice. Okay. And then my final question is at the end of your life, what is the one art related experience that you would want to experience for the last time?

[00:29:25] Giovanna Salas: The smell of the art supplies, the smell of the paint.

[00:29:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I like that. Yeah, it's possibility, right? That's like, what's going to come out today. I love that. That's a great answer. Well, oh my goodness. This has been amazing. I'm so just so amazed by you and what you bring to the world and your, your company and how much impact it has. Thank you so much for doing what you do. I'm really excited that you're still painting and you're going to be exhibiting. I think all of that is just fantastic. So it was amazing to talk with you today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

[00:30:09] Giovanna Salas: I appreciate your time because without you and you know people they have contacted also somehow, at least in about the Heart of Hollywood Magazine, all the company, without, without you Lindsey, we really cannot go far because, eh, there is so many people, so many company, entertainment companies in LA, you know, so it's it's not easy, but with your help, you know, we are letting people know about Heart of Hollywood motion pictures, Heart of Hollywood Magazine. And I'm very, very thankful they you're taking the time to interview.

[00:30:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course it's been an absolute pleasure. Well, and thank you so much again to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:13] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In this week's episode, I again welcome Ashley Taylor! Ashley was our very first podcast guest and we're delighted she came back to share about her manifesto to artists about the importance of intentionality in every choice when creating and sharing their work. She offers blunt yet insightful advice about how artists can be meaningful in their works' presentation. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Ashley & Lindsey when they were promoting the 2019 premiere of "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker.")

Get in touch with Ashley Taylor: https://www.ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 71 - Ashley Taylor

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am extremely delighted to have as my guest today a returnee. She actually had the very, very first episode that I ever released with a guest was with Ashley Taylor. So thank you, Ashley, for being back. I'm just beyond excited. Ashley is a dancer. She is a choreographer, teacher. She is also a writer. In fact, maybe sneak peak. Can I say that you're working on a novel?

[00:02:47] Ashley Taylor: Of course you can!

[00:02:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah. And then also, goodness gracious. I think your artistic list goes on and on. You can paint, draw, what can't you do? Maybe we should start there.

[00:03:02] Ashley Taylor: Well, I'm going to answer that question later.

[00:03:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair. That's true. Anyway, artist extraordinaire, very creative and very good at what she does. So, Ashley, thank you for being back.

[00:03:17] Ashley Taylor: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to chat with you again about artsy things.

[00:03:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first I'm really curious to know sort of what what you've been up to lately, especially considering, you know, when we did our recording last year, of course it was COVID central and it kind of still is, but things have changed and opened back up. So I'm curious how you've been able to navigate sort of getting back into more artsy things?

[00:03:50] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I would not say I'm fully back in, in the way that I would like to be, but that's fine. I've had the time to explore a lot of writing and editing and found a community of creative writing people, which is great. So we meet virtually once a week and read each other what we're working on and give feedback, which has been wonderful, highly recommend creative community as a side note. So yeah, I, as you said, I have been working on a novel. I, I am editing it. I think this is my third draft right now. I've got some feedback recently from some readers, so I'm editing it. And the goal is to get it sent to some agents and see what the possibilities are there in the next couple of months.

[00:04:44] So that'll be, that'll be an adventure for sure. In addition to that, I am starting to gather ideas for another writing project, which would be my own and other people's stories about being in the professional dance world and the good, the bad and the ugly of that. But focusing on the good hopefully. And so, yeah, writing, lots of writing. As far as dance goes, that's my other main thing. And I am starting to do some auditions and have a performance with you coming up, which I'm super excited about. And yeah, I that's pretty much it for now. I will see if any other opportunities arise, but I am trying to go with the flow.

[00:05:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and by going with the flow, obviously you are also very involved in lots of things. So that seems like quite a bit to keep you busy, not to mention, you know, you're a wife and mother and, you know, details. Well, congratulations on finishing or working on draft three of the novel. I mean, first of all, that's a huge undertaking to finish, let alone to get to this next point. So congratulations on that. And obviously I'm wishing you the best in your publishing journey and I'm sure our listeners are as well. And once that happens, you'll have to be on again and talk all about your book.

[00:06:15] Ashley Taylor: I would be glad to do that.

[00:06:17] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. And then so you mentioned getting back into various forms of art. And then I'm also curious because when we talked last time, you were essentially a brand new mom. And now you-- I mean, I guess you'd maybe consider yourself still kind of a brand new mom, I don't know-- but...

[00:06:44] Ashley Taylor: It changes every day pretty much, a little bit.

[00:06:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I'm curious how that has impacted your either expression of art or I mean, obviously ability to do art changes a little bit I'm sure. Or a lot, but I'm just curious if it, if you feel that also being a mom or having a little one has, has impacted just the way that you express yourself through art.

[00:07:13] Ashley Taylor: Hmm. That's a great question. I think, I think I have two answers to that. So the first thing is now that I'm a mom, I obviously have additional demands on my time and energy. So that's, it can be a difficult thing, but it's also a good thing in the sense that I am a lot pickier now about what artistic endeavors I spend time on. So early on in any artistic person's career or foray into artistic things, just kind of taking whatever opportunities come your way, because you want to get out there and get recognized and build experience. And I've done that. And I've spent a lot of time doing that in the past. And I-- it's not that I have every experience I'd ever want under my belt and you know, I'm an expert now-- certainly not, but I think I am a little less willing to just kind of do whatever at this point. I'm interested in spending time on projects that I find really meaningful, which means I weed things out very quickly if I see audition listings or whatever it may be, and I think that's good.

[00:08:25] I think, I think it's good to have that perspective now. Like I'm not, I'm not desperate enough to just do whatever. So that's good. And then as far as how it affects the expression of art, I do think it's not like I'm thinking about my son all the time while I'm making art, but I, I do think you, there's less pressure to throw your entire identity onto your art, because you know that you have other more important things waiting for you at home. Just gives you a different perspective and you realize you are more than, you're more than being a mother. You're also more than being an artist. You are all of those things at once. And you get to use the wholeness of that. You bring the wholeness of that into whatever you're doing at the moment, if that makes sense.

[00:09:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it absolutely does make sense. And I think that's really an amazing perspective to have, because it is so easy to get caught up in, you know, I'm, I'm a dancer. I've always been a dancer. I, you know, struggled with that myself quite a bit last year with COVID and not dancing for a year. I mean, not performing for a year and feeling like I've always identified myself, you know. When people meet me and I tell them that I'm a dancer. They're like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." You know, it's just part of my DNA. And, and so there were many times last year I sort of had these like identity crisis moments of, "Well, who am I without this?" And, you know, and what, what do I need for my soul to, to feel like I can still identify as a dancer? Yeah. So I definitely relate to that, but I love the perspective that you have of sort of there's, there's more to you. Like you have, you have a myriad of sides to you and they're, they're important and they're all valuable, I guess. So, yeah, like that.

[00:10:30] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. And I think we, we do ourselves a disservice by identifying as only one thing, honestly. Because we're all so much more than that.

[00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. So earlier you had alluded to the fact that you're writing more about dance and people's experiences and things like that. And I know recently you wrote a really intriguing blog post that I kind of wanted to dive into a little bit. It was a manifesto of sorts, if that's fair, about some trends that you've been noticing in, I suppose, the dance world in particular, but in general in the arts world. And I'm curious if you don't mind sharing what you wrote about and sort of your thought process behind all that?

[00:11:19] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I think the idea for this stemmed from, you know, I haven't performed in a while either, and, but I have seen over the past year or two, I've seen a few companies' virtual performances. And even that prompted me to think back to performances I've been involved in in the past. And I mean, I'll just be blunt. I'm pretty blunt in the blog post. There are times when I'm watching dance and I'm a dancer and I am actually bored. And I was trying to figure out why is that? Because it's not that it's not at all that the dancers aren't talented, they're very talented. And I came to realize it's because the choreography is rather mediocre. And I, you know, I have to couch this by saying everybody sees something different in a piece of art. And some people will find a piece of art meaningful that another person will not, right?. We all know it's, it's very subjective.

[00:12:24] However, what I think, what I think people get caught up in sometimes is, you know, somebody who is not familiar with dance, might watch a dance and think, "Wow, they're so talented." Or, "Wow, that looks so hard," or, "Wow, that was beautiful." And those are all good reactions, right? But as a dancer, myself, I might have similar reactions, but I also might ask, "Okay, well, what are you trying to say through this dance?" I'm like, "What's the point of this? Why are we doing this?" And what I kind of argue for in the, in the post is like, I, I'm not always sure that artists are actually asking that question, 'cause especially dancers, we love dancing. We love doing our art. We love it. So we do it because that's what we do and we've trained, we've spent years studying it and we think, well, we have to dance. That's what we worked all this time for. And so then we end up putting out these dances that might be fun to do as performers, they might be meaningful personally as performers, and the audience might be wowed by our talent.

[00:13:35] But did they actually get something meaningful out of it? Like, did you communicate through that dance? And I don't know. I guess I've been, I've been thinking lately that we really need to do a better job of being clear about what we're trying to say and what our intent is. So like, if the intent is, I just want to entertain people. So it's like, I don't know if the Radio City Rockettes say, or a fun movie. That's like a goofy chick flick. Okay. Entertainment. Great. No problem with that. But I think what we do is forget that there is a difference in some regard between entertainment, and art or between just like pure creative expression and art. So entertainment is, you know, you walk away and you're like, "Wow, I feel relaxed. I got out of my head for a minute." So it was great. They were talented. That was fun. Creative expression is like, any, anything that you do that's, that's creative, artistic, which is always great.

[00:14:32] And it's like, I baked some cookies. I painted a sunset. I, I made a dance, right? That's all great, but I, I feel that a primary-- what's the word-- a primary purpose of art is to communicate something, to express something. And it has to be something from which the viewer can glean meaning, and it doesn't have to be the exact meaning that the artist intended, but there should be something like you should react to a piece of art in my opinion. So I questioned the approach of artists who don't, who are not clear about what they're trying to communicate. And therefore are not even editing it appropriately in order to communicate that more. So an example that I use in the, in the post is just because you know how to write words down and you find some interesting words and then you put them on a page that does not mean that you've actually written a story, right?

[00:15:37] There's a lot that goes into writing a story with characters and plot and you know, development and all of this, right? So you can't just put words on a page and say, "I made art now. You know, enjoy it, pay for it." It's like, well, why, why would anybody do that? They could have written the page, the words on the page. So in, in dance, similarly, I feel like we pick some music and we're like, well, we have to dance because we have a show coming up and we gotta make money. So we'll make a dance about something random and put it up, put it on stage. And like here's talented dancers and here's like a couple of interesting moves. And we put it on stage and we call it art and then people don't come and we lament the fact that people just don't get it. It's like, well, was there anything there for them to get? Like, that's really my question. It's like, I don't think with the amount of content there is these days, like I just don't think it's realistic to assume that people will want to come watch you just because you're talented. Like there, the world is full of, the world is full of art and entertainment and all these things. So what makes yours different? Like, why are people gonna want to come and then come back? Are you giving them something transformative or something meaningful? Beyond just a spectacle. Does that make sense?

[00:16:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. No, I resonate with everything that you're saying so much. Good gravy. Yeah. I, yes, that definitely makes sense. And I think, you know, gosh, a lot of thoughts were forming in my head as you were talking about it, but working kind of backwards. One thing that I just thought about too, is that with COVID one of the lovely things to come out of it, I suppose, is the fact that the world opened up even more. And so art that may have only been accessible to a certain geographic region is now being live-streamed across the world, you know, or, or it's been recorded and made into a film that's then, you know, again, available literally anywhere. So I think you touched on a really good point. That's even more relevant today. And that is that there's a lot, there's a lot of art. So what makes you different?

[00:17:57] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think artists sometimes sort of have this sense of entitlement, of like, well, I have years of training and I spent money and time and energy to do this. So you should come watch me because of that. And it's like, that's not fair. I mean, I don't know. I think that's unrealistic and I would love, I would love it if people came just to watch us because we're talented, but it's unrealistic. And so we need to give them something more than that. Okay.

[00:18:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think sort of to that point, I mean, you would hold any other profession to that too, right? So just because a doctor has trained for years and years, super highly educated, if he constantly misdiagnosis and, you know, or treats people terribly, you're not coming back. There's plenty of doctors in the world, or, you know, if a plumber doesn't, you know, again, highly educated probably, you know, years of experience, but if they can't fix the problem, you don't go back.

[00:19:03] Ashley Taylor: Yeah.

[00:19:04] Lindsey Dinneen: So I think, you know, there's a lot of, I agree that, that there is some entitlement of sort of like, well, I have devoted my life to this, so then you should devote your life to me, you know, or whatever.

[00:19:18] Ashley Taylor: Yeah.

[00:19:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I think it's, it's actually something I've thought about before. You also have to be really careful as, as an artist. And as, let's say, you know, a show director, a company director, or whatever that you just recognize the fact that it will always matter more to you than to anyone else. So if you're going to be effective at what you do, you, like you said, you have to have a message that you can, that can be translated that that's not.

[00:19:48] Ashley Taylor: And I think in order to do that, you really have to, you have to have an editing eye, and/or you need outside perspectives telling you "I'm not getting it" before it goes out to a wider audience. And like, think of the book publishing industry, you know, your book goes through multiple rounds of edits and proofreads and suggestions before it ever hits the shelves of a bookstore, unless you're self publishing, but you still should go through those steps if you're self publishing. So there have been many outside eyes looking at this project and saying, "I'm not quite getting it" or like "that character needs something more," but with the average dance company, in my personal experience, that doesn't happen. So there's no accountability to make sure that what you're trying to say is coming across. And again, you don't always have to have a message, but, but there needs to be, you need to be clear about the fact that you don't have a message, then you can't try half heartedly to put some kind of message in there. And it just doesn't go anywhere. If that makes sense.

[00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So I'm, I'm gathering you're not a fan of the whole Untitled Number One concept.

[00:21:03] Ashley Taylor: Oh my gosh.

[00:21:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh. Oh man. I think that should be banned in the art world, man. You have to come up with something.

[00:21:12] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, good grief. Yeah, that just seems, it seems lazy to me and I, yeah, again, I said this would be blunt.

[00:21:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, no, for sure. And, but I think that's, that's actually really interesting. I actually, I think you touched on something that's important and it is blunt, but I think that essentially part of what you're getting at is if you don't do this self editing or outside editing, it is lazy, right? Like you aren't doing your due diligence, you aren't kind of respecting the art form in a way.

[00:21:46] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Or you're assuming that the art form is so sacred or something that people will come anyway. I'm trying to think of an example that's not dance, but I don't know. I mean, even, you know, modern art, a lot of people don't get modern art, visual art. So I, and I feel like sometimes modern artists are like, "Well, I painted this, so you should look at it because it's painting and because I'm talented and I'm an artist and here it is. It's art." And, to which I would respond "Fine, but don't expect anybody to feel the same way about it than you do." I mean, I don't know. I think you have to communicate something, even if you're communicating everything is meaningless. Like, okay. That's, that's a message. But anyway.

[00:22:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. That's a choice. Yeah. It's interesting that you put it kind of like that, because that is something that-- yeah-- so our friends over at Kansas City Aerial Arts, apparently in their rehearsal process when they're actively choreographing and then sort of doing the edits like you're talking about, their sort of funny catchphrase is, "Well, that's a choice." And, and I love it because it's true. You, you have lots of choices along the process of creating art and editing art. And you know, you can make a choice that ends up needing to be changed in the future. I mean, that's, that's what happens a lot too. I mean, goodness, actually a real world example is in going back and looking at some of the choreography that I've previously done, or right now that I'm resetting on our dancers, is looking back and going, "What was that, you know, you know?"

[00:23:39] Ashley Taylor: We all do it.

[00:23:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, and perspective. And you go, "That doesn't make sense. Why would I have that person come on from that side of the..." You know, just it's so funny, but it is so important to go back and, and improve every time I think too.

[00:23:54] Ashley Taylor: I was going to go off on another little rant-- not a ranch-- just a tangent. Yeah, I, yeah. So back when you were saying, talking about choices, "Well, that's a choice," so I don't have a problem with choices and I, and again, I don't think every piece of art is meant to be loved necessarily. So if you're choosing to communicate everything is meaningless and it's this very dark piece of art about that. You know, I don't have a problem with that as long as everything you do has a reason behind it and it supports your message. And I think a lot of times people miss that part. So I feel like, I think that we should start with the why and then go to the how and the what, and, and I'll explain that in a second, but I think a lot of people start with the what. They're like, "Well, we have to make a ballet."

[00:24:42] And then they go into the why sort of, if they even get there, but more or less, it's just, well, we had to make a ballet. So here's a fun little piece of music. And, you know, we'll put people on stage versus, to say, to go back and say why first? Why am I even doing this? Why am I here today? What am I trying to say? And, and once you know that, then you can say, "Okay, now how best do I say that?" So, personal example really quick. I have started writing things before and I thought it would be in prose form. And like, as soon as I started, I thought, "You know what? This wants to be a poem." And I can't explain it other than that, it was like this wants to be poetry, not prose. And I think, you know, in that case, it worked out better to express the idea that way or, you know, I know we're a ballet company. I know we normally dance on pointe, but this piece really needs to be danced barefoot, and that will enhance the vision of what I'm trying to say. So again, it's like your why is informing your what ,or your how versus the other way around, if that makes sense.

[00:25:48] So again, it's just, it's just about like every, every choice you make artistically needs to have a reason behind it and you need to be evaluating how that fits into your broader vision for this piece. Everything should support it. I remember in college my professors saying every, every person on stage needs to have a reason to be there. And if they're doing the exact same thing as everybody else, you need to question why they're there. So again, just having a reason. I'll stop there.

[00:26:18] Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, that's great advice. I love that. Actually I remember in choreography classes in college, them talking about if you're going to use the prop, you have to use the prep. You can't just have a random bench on stage that you don't interact with except for the beginning, or maybe the end. Like there don't do that. Or, you know, 'cause again, and what I've been trying to actually communicate to my choreography students is intentionality is everything, right? So you have everything has to have intentionality because I agree with you once you start being like, "Oh, whatever," you run into all the issues that emerged from that of, okay, but so there's no thought put into that. And you, I think you do need to constantly be asking yourself and or what you're editing, "well, why?" Like, as a, as an artist, you should be able to answer that very clearly.

[00:27:16] Ashley Taylor: Right. And if the answer is, " well, I just wanted to have them dance on a chair or, well, I just needed to use four couples instead of one." It's like, that's not a really good answer, frankly. So basically what you're saying is you had to adjust or water down the art in order to accommodate some limitation. And like, there are times to do that, but if you don't have to then, for heaven's sake, don't like, anyway, that's my thoughts. Or like, or people will say, "well, the music I want to use is 12 minutes. So this is going to be a 12 minute piece." And it's like three minutes in you've said everything you needed to say. I get it. And now I have to sit here and watch the repetition for another nine minutes. And like, I'm bored out of my mind. It's like, again, not that the dancers aren't good, but I don't need to, I didn't need to see that for 12 minutes. So cut the music, you know, make your, make your art or make your artistic choices work for the art.

[00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: What a brilliant little way to sum that up.

[00:28:21] Ashley Taylor: Thanks.

[00:28:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yup. I like that. So I am curious when, okay, so we've talked about, you know, obviously you need to be communicating something, you need to be doing it well, which means a lot of editing and evaluation and re-editing again or whatever, but how do you feel about someone who's like, especially in the dance world, somebody who might produce a piece and their whole thing is, " I just want to make this as abstract as possible." Do you still feel that they need to communicate that that is the intention behind it? Or do you just not care for that style?

[00:29:07] Ashley Taylor: I-- this is my personal preference-- if you're going to do that and say this has no story, this has no message, it's just movement on stage, personally, if I'm going to watch a piece that has no meaning, I want it to be still moving. And what I mean by that is, I want the music to be interesting. I don't want some soundscape, you know? You know what I mean? It's like the sort of tuneless music during massage. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I don't want that because that's, that doesn't do anything for me. And then, and then, so I want some interesting music and I want the movement to respond to the music or enhance it and I want it to be memorable movement. So if some, so that if a piece is so beautiful or so dynamic or so in your face, whatever it is that I stopped caring if there's a meaning behind it, I think you've still made art because you've, you've managed to say, to use a metaphor, the earlier metaphor-- you've managed to make really amazing sentences, just beautiful sentences with beautiful words. And I don't care what you're saying, if that makes sense, but so, but that's a challenge. Like that's really challenging to make a dance so interesting that like everybody's just mesmerized, right?

[00:30:37] So, and what I, so what I feel often happens is people will say, "Well, I'm going to make this abstract dance and then it's like nothing. Not only is it not communicating, but it's not interesting or unique or dynamic enough to, to move somebody." Like I could probably count on one hand the number of abstract, totally abstract dances. I've seen that I didn't care that there was no meeting. So, and like, I'm not even sure that I could make one. So like it's a challenge, but that's kind of how I would respond to that. Like if you're going to make that choice, fine. But then the art has to be like really different or just really moving. I keep using that word "moving."

[00:31:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Dynamic moving. Yeah. I agree. I actually think it's probably a harder artistic challenge to go that route well than it is to be communicating a specific message or story and, and that kind of touches back into what we were talking about with intentionality of, I absolutely agree. So I always say that I love tap dancing because you can't do a sad tap dance. And, and that's, that's the thing about tap is it just would be so absurd and ridiculous. Like you wouldn't be communicating well, if you tried to do that, I suppose trying to do a comedically tragic piece, right? But you know, which I think that could be fun. But my point is that, you know, if, if my goal is to communicate happy, then, you know, tap is a good choice. If my goal is to communicate sadness and loneliness, probably tap's not the best choice. So what would best communicate that? So I, I agree with you. I really liked the idea of starting with the why, and then working backwards. It's like Event Planning 101, right? You know, you, what's the, what's the date of the event and what are you trying to do with that event? Why are you hiring you and then you work back, right?

[00:32:38] Ashley Taylor: How do you want people to feel when they walk away from this event?

[00:32:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What do you want them to have gained or learned or, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Right. Very cool. Well the manifesto is very well written and really worth the time to read as are Ashley's other musings. Do you mind sharing a link to your blog?

[00:33:01] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I'm at ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com. And that's Ashley with a Y, Rebecca with two C's, ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com. And if anybody is interested, on the contact page on my blog, I also have links to my YouTube channel, which is for dancing and also my Facebook page, which is for basically all the arts that I do.

[00:33:29] Lindsey Dinneen: All of the things.

[00:33:30] Ashley Taylor: All the things. Yes.

[00:33:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Awesome. I love it. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you for sharing about that, that particular post and kind of your, your musings and your feelings about, about, you know, an artist process and, and I really, I, you know, like you said, it's blunt, but I think it is a good gut check for any time that you do sort of want to just make a quick decision rather than a intentional decision or, you know, so I do think there's a lot of value to that. So thank you for kind of also bringing that back to awareness. I think especially maybe during COVID there were many of us who were like, I just need to create something, but you know, and that there's, there can be a lot of value in that and there can be a lot of value in doing so for you, but if you're going to be doing it for an audience of some kind, then, you know, let's, let's put that intentionality in it. Yeah. I really liked that. Exactly. All right. Well, I have three questions that I would love to ask you if you don't mind answering them.

[00:34:45] Ashley Taylor: All right.

[00:34:46] Lindsey Dinneen: So, first of all, what change would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art? Or making it available to people. So it essentially, what's, what's one big change you'd like to see in the art world?

[00:35:03] Ashley Taylor: Well, I think I've spent most of our time talking about it. But actually I, so I have a different answer which is more about the artists themselves in a way. So I don't know about other forms of art so much, but in the ones that I'm involved in, I feel like the message that we get as we get more serious about pursuing them is there's kind of one right way to pursue a career in this field, or, you know, even a serious hobby or whatever. So, you know, if you're a dancer, you kind of get the impression-- it's like, well, if you don't dance in a company or you're not appearing in commercial music videos or whatever it may be, then you're not, you haven't really made it, right? And I think so, you know, this is something I've been wrestling with a lot over the past few years because I don't have a regular dancing gig at the moment.

[00:36:00] And I feel like that message is harmful because it kind of makes you feel like you've failed if you either can't do that or don't want to do. And not wanting to go that route is totally valid. So how can we find more creative ways to make the art that we that we're passionate about, which may not be that traditional career route, right? So what I would like to see change is more people feeling the freedom if they don't see what they're looking for, the opportunity they're looking for, go make it right. I mean, create what isn't there yet. And give opportunities to other people who might feel the same way as you do about the career path that you've chosen or are up to not to choose.

[00:36:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Yeah, no good answer. But I really, obviously, I personally resonate with that because, you know, I had gotten to a point in my career where the opportunities to be apart of a full-time company here locally, we're just not the right fit anymore. And so that's exactly what I did. I, I didn't see something that could continue to work well, so I created a company. And thankfully there were enough people who were like, "Yes, we agree. We, we like this. Let's go that route." And we, we don't dance all the time. We, we do, you know, two big shows a year and then little gigs here and there throughout. But yeah. And I think that's, I think that's great.

[00:37:38] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, and it's, it's great because you don't, you know, there isn't one definition of what a dance company is or there shouldn't be so just because yours doesn't look like someone else's doesn't mean it's not a valid way to make art. Maybe might be an even a better atmosphere for making art. So why not try it, you know?

[00:37:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I, yes, exactly. Well, and I, I try to especially tell my students this. But I just think in general, so true what you said. I think that there are many avenues to a dream and if you can remain open to it, to them, to the other options, then you're going to be a lot happier and a lot more fulfilled, you know, in the long run, because there are a lot of ways to do it. Yeah.

[00:38:34] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. And you might even be more impactful. I mean, you never know.

[00:38:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, absolutely. Yes. Well, great answer. And then my second question is, is there something art related that stands out to you as something that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt intimidated to try it and maybe that kind of held you back from trying it? So essentially, is there something that you artistically would like to venture into, but maybe haven't for whatever reason?

[00:39:10] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, there are many things. I mean, if I had my way, I would be good at everything, but I'm not. So I feel like the primary one is I would love to play the violin. I'm not really that musical. I mean, I am as a dancer, but not in the sense of playing an instrument. And I've, I have tried with, with disastrous results to play a few notes on other friend's stringed instruments before, so I would need some training, but yeah, but I would, I would love to try that, that instrument. And I think that'd be really fun. I, so that's very outside of my wheelhouse. The other one that comes to mind is musical theater which is more related to dancing and what I have experienced doing, but it's, it also feels very intimidating to be that well-rounded and sort of that showy in a way, but it sounds like a lot of fun. It always looks like they're having fun. So I'd love to try that too.

[00:40:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I totally relate to the musical theater thing. I just love watching it so much that I always thought it'd be really fun, but I am so intimidated by the idea of having to be a triple threat and like, yeah, well, maybe we should audition for something together at some point, just, you know, at least for the experience of it.

[00:40:31] Ashley Taylor: What? Abject failure?

[00:40:34] Lindsey Dinneen: We can pick each other off the floor. It'll be fine. That'll be fine. Awesome. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's the one art-related experience you would want to experience again for the last time?

[00:40:52] Ashley Taylor: So this is such a hard question because there are so many. So my answer is kind of funny because there's a, there's a piece of music that I have choreographed to. And I think it's probably the most beautiful piece I've ever heard, although that's hard to say, but it just moves me every time I hear it. And so I started telling people, I want this played at my funeral, which sounds like super morbid, and people would always sort of laugh awkwardly and be like, "Okay." Well, I think what I'm trying to get at with that statement is it's, it's so transcendent to me that that's kind of how I want to go on like thinking of, I'm thinking of a higher plane, I suppose, and something bigger than me and like kind of what lies ahead of death or what lies beyond death. So anyway, that's my little manifesto about it, but the piece of music is "Nearer My God to Thee," by The Piano Guys. So it's an arrangement of a hymn done on cello, multiple cellos, harmonizing with each other, and it is gorgeous, highly recommend listening to it.

[00:42:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That is a gorgeous, gorgeous piece of music. I, I agree with you. It's, it's amazing. There are, I mean, there's a lot of beautiful music out in the world, but there are certain ones that stand out as just every time I hear them, I'm like transported, or you said transcended, are you feeling like that? But yeah, that's yeah, you know, in fact it's really interesting. There was, there was somebody recently who was suggesting to do-- so, so I think there's probably a lot of us that find it difficult to just sit still and meditate. You know, come back to your breath, come back to your breath or whatever, you know, it's, it's hard to do that.

[00:42:47] But one suggestion that I heard recently was to put on a piece of music like that. And it's, that's just that you just listen to it and you don't do anything else. You close your eyes, you know, let that experience sort of envelop you and that's what you kind of not like necessarily meditate on, but the idea of like clearing your head and not being distracted by other things and things like that. And yeah, I did it once and it was really amazing because it's just, you know, you get sort of distracted if you're alone, even if you love the piece of music, if you're not like solely focused on that, it's easy to sort of let it not wash over you, right?

[00:43:29] Ashley Taylor: Oh yeah. But to bring your full focus to it. Yeah, I can, yeah, I can attest to that as meditative.

[00:43:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, indeed. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Ashley, this has been amazing as I fully expected. So thank you so much for being here. And I know we have the information for your website and that's probably a good way for people to connect with you or to at least follow your work.

[00:44:03] Ashley Taylor: And I have an email on there too, so I'm always happy to chat about artistic things if that's desired.

[00:44:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Perfect. Well, again, I really appreciate you. Thank you for sharing your heart and thank you for being blunt, and, and for challenging us to, to be our best and, and do our best. I think that's really important and I am very excited to follow the path of this novel and can't wait to purchase it when it's available for purchase.

[00:44:39] Ashley Taylor: And you'll be the first to know.

[00:44:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. All right. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:44:57] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:45:07] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

View Details

In this week's episode, I welcome Rachel Moore! Rachel is a licensed marriage and family therapist, specializing in psycotherapy for the creative community of writers, artists, and musicians. As a prolific artist herself--having trained in piano, voice, improv, writing, acting, photography, and more--Rachel brings a unique perspective to her therapy practice in a way that authentically connects with artists. Her episode is full of great stories and sage advice. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is one of Rachel's photos!)

Get in touch with Rachel Moore: https://www.rachelmoorecounseling.com/

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Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 70 - Rachel Moore

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Rachel Moore. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in San Diego and she works primarily with creative people and artists, which is most of us. So I'm so, so excited that you're here, Rachel, and so excited to chat with you. Thank you for being here too.

[00:02:38] Rachel Moore: Thanks so much, Lindsey, I'm really excited about it too. I can't wait to just chat with you about fun, artsy things.

[00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? It's my favorite. All right. Yeah. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit, maybe about your background, kind of what got you interested in art and then of course, a little bit about what you're up to these days.

[00:03:00] Rachel Moore: You bet. Gosh. Yeah. So actually my first intro into the creative world was through music. And so when I was seven, I started taking piano lessons, really liked it, did not like practicing, but that's another thing. And did piano from seven to 14, started playing a saxophone and in, in middle school and then went into high school and continued with that and jazz band and stuff. And then also started playing auxiliary percussion in marching band and met some really great friends there. So lots and lots and lots of music, instrumental music. And meanwhile, I forgot this other track this whole time. I was always a writer. Pretty much been writing since I was like five and I made my first little book or whatever. So writing and music, sort of the more performative arts, have always been something I've been interested in and good at.

[00:03:53] I not a great drawer. I tried my best, but this art isn't quite what I do with it. So, you know slap something together. But yeah, for me, music and writing and I actually, my first career was as a newspaper copy editor. So when I was in college, I got a degree in creative writing focused mainly on poetry. And I think it's kind of cool actually that I then went on to a 14 year career in newspapers where I would do editing. I would do design of the news pages. And I also importantly, would write headlines, which required the skills of finding the best words and also looking at line breaks, right? And if you're writing a headline. So that was going on. And then in the meantime, I, I finally went into singing when I was like 30. I lived in LA, I went to this great community college program. They had an applied music program. I was still working and also doing this program where I got private lessons, singing lessons for the first time. And really it was able to kind of develop my voice and learn a lot of technique that was just super helpful. And so that's been really fun.

[00:04:57] And so that's kind of all of the basis of the, the fun, creative stuff I like to do. Then when I was about 35, 36, I decided to become a therapist, went back to school, got my master's degree. All that had to do 3000 hours of supervised internship before I could get licensed. And meanwhile, thinking to myself like, well, who am I going? Who are my clients going to be? You know, what, what am I going to focus on? Who am I going to serve? When actually it was kind of right in front of me the whole time, which is people like me, people who were into art. And I can talk more about kind of what that's like from my perspective as a therapist and why I think that's important, but that's, that's kind of the, the quick and dirty version of my life. There you go.

[00:05:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Oh my goodness. I love it. So many questions based off of that. I love it, but, but let's, yeah, I would love to hear more about what you just talked about with your practice and working with creatives and things like that. I would love to hear more about that whole thing and how that became your focus as opposed to, I mean, therapists are needed all the time. So I'm just curious how that kind of became your, your niche.

[00:06:07] Rachel Moore: Sure. Yeah. I actually had a particular therapy experience with my own therapist when I was trying to explain to her that I went to a friend's house and I sat down at her digital piano. And, you know, I live in San Diego. It's kind of hard to like haul pianos around. I don't really have a lot of access to pianos. With that piano, the piano was my first instrument and it really means a lot to me. And so explaining to my therapist, how I sat down with this digital piano. And I had no idea that they, they've improved them so much now that they really do feel a lot like a piano when you sit at it. And I felt like I was playing a piano and, and what that meant to me, you know, how it felt in my body and how it felt emotionally and, and all this stuff. And my therapist, like, it's, you know, she didn't do anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with her, but she was just kinda like, oh, okay. Like she just didn't get it. You know?

[00:06:59] I thought, wow, wouldn't it be cool to just off the bat, be able to have that connection with my clients where I understand, generally speaking-- you know, it's different for everybody, but I understand that for them, art may be like a life or death type thing. Art may be the reason that they are alive and, and the most important thing in their life. I just thought it would be cool to be that type of therapist who could serve people like that. And, you know, the most practical thought there is that it just saves a lot of time. You know, I'm like, okay. Yeah, I get it. Great. You know, I don't have to, they don't have to explain it to me on a deeper level. I think it's just cool to be able to be a person who gets it on some level and when it comes to being a creative.

[00:07:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I can even just hearing you tell that story, I can definitely relate to, you know, it, it's totally fine when you, when you're talking to people who don't have the same experiences and, you know, and being able to share like, well, this art means this to me because, and you can sort of explain it, but until you have experienced it yourself, it's just not the same. So I can totally see that. So, and I'm curious too, do you find, or have you found that-- I'm trying to figure out how to word this exactly-- that I guess, like I've said, I, I'm a firm believer in therapy, but I think that I'm just curious, how has it been to attract creatives to your practice? Is it, is it helpful because you're also an artist and that's sort of, again, how they've connected with you? Because I still feel like there's a little bit of stigma, even in the art world of like, "oh, you know, I can't, I can't do that because you know that that's not for me," I guess.

[00:08:46] Rachel Moore: Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think that, you know, when it comes to, you know, by the time people are finding me, they know they want to go to therapy, I guess, really, you know? And so it's like, well, who, who do I want to see? I mean, I've had, you know, prospective clients say to me, oh, I saw immediately, for example, that you work with writers and I'm a writer. So I want to work with you. Like, because you just-- I'm shocked actually that I don't see more people working with people in the arts. I mean, maybe they are, and I just don't know where to find them or I'm not looking in the right places. I don't know. But like, I think it's really, and it's, you know, you talk about the stigma, even as I say that out loud, I'm like, am I saying like, artists need more help? It's, it's not so much even that it's just that I think that again, like, and I wish I had better ways to explain it too, but there's something about, you know, somebody who again has that, has that experience with art really gets on a deep level.

[00:09:46] I mean, even, I was just thinking also in a practical ways, like, I know what it's like to have stage fright. Like literally I have it all the time because I'm performing a lot or I used to, you know, before the pandemic and, and yeah, there, there's, there's a connection there that I think is, can be really important and really vital in the relationship with my clients. And I will say that it's been, you know, there've been studies showing that the relationship between the therapist and the client is actually the healing part of therapy, which I think is pretty cool, like, or the most healing part. There's other things that are important too, but the relationship and the rapport is the most important part.

[00:10:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I can personally relate to that. I absolutely agree. And I think, you having that experience like you, like you were saying, even just the stage fright element. It's huge. So being able to also affirm the way that somebody is feeling, you know, and, and acknowledge the fact just also, you know, how much hard work goes into it. And I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding about the art, about artists. And I joke about it a lot because people will say to me, "oh, you know, you have such a glamorous job." I'm a professional dancer and I'm like, "well, ninety of the time, not glamorous at all, you know?"

[00:10:59] Rachel Moore: Yup. Most of the time, like I was just thinking about it today. I don't, I don't know if I mentioned to you before, but I'm actually been doing an "improv for therapists" class online. I've been participating in that as it as a an improv and it's been so fun, but today we did our dress rehearsal for our show and it reminded me how, you know, oh, I'm like, oh yeah --most of the time in a production, you're just sitting around like waiting. Right. So true. Preparing something. I know I'm just like, okay, all right. This week, not really glamorous. No.

[00:11:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's all those long days in the theater where you're just like, oh my gosh, how is it midnight? And we're not done. But I think it's just nice to have somebody to be able to talk to, somebody who, who totally gets it, like on a fundamental level. You've been there. You've done that. I love that. I think that's super cool.

[00:11:49] Rachel Moore: Well, that's great. Cause that's what I'm going for. Yeah.

[00:11:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I just love that. So, you know, you had mentioned starting to sing, you know, a little bit late, well having voice lessons, I'm sure you were singing here your whole life, but having voice lessons and really pursuing it as an adult. And I'm super interested in that. Was that kind of a leap of faith? And I asked partly because like is always been this like thing in the back of my mind, "oh, someday I'll go take voice lessons," but I haven't because I'm like, "oh my gosh. That's so nerve wracking." Tell me about your experience.

[00:12:22] Rachel Moore: Okay. Yeah. Well, a friend of mine at the newspaper I was working at told me that he was in this program and how fun it was and, and he's also the person who introduced me to yoga. So I knew that he's like, he's got some good stuff going on. So I was like, "okay, I'll check it out." And the first time I ever performed in my group class, my hands were shaking so hard. I was up on the little stage in the classroom and I could not stop them, just shaking, shaking, shaking. And I'm like, okay, I guess that's what we're doing here. I'm happy to say that it got better, but yeah, it is, it can be scary. I think that the coolest part of that experience was that I learned a lot of technique that I had no idea about and actually made singing easier and made it easier for me to perform in a way where I felt confident. And, and, and even made it easier like on my body. Cause you know, when you're singing, just like when you're dancing, your body is the instrument. So to find a technique that, you know, I know how to sing really loud without hurting my voice, stuff like that, you know, was really cool.

[00:13:22] And I will say I had a really interesting experience when I was kind of wrapping up my, my time with that. And I will admit to you-- to admit, I know there's an interesting word. My therapist brain just caught that. I stopped pursuing it because I didn't want to do it as a career. And my, my teacher at the time was encouraging me to continue and I didn't want to have the life of a singer, whatever I imagined that would be. And I have never gotten paid for singing, and I don't want to get paid for singing. It's too close to me as a human. I don't know how to explain it, but I had this experience where I was working on an aria from "Samson and Delilah" and the mezzo soprano. And I was, I was working on this aria for, for like a few months you know, really, really working really hard, like you said, because that's what we do as artists. We work really hard and finally sang it for my teacher and I, she was on the piano accompanying me. And I'm just getting chills thinking about it right now. Cause we got to the end of the aria. I got to the end and she looked at me and she said, "you could sing that on any stage in the world." And I looked at her and said and said, "I know."

[00:14:40] And you know, what's so funny about that. I was, I was done. I was good. I didn't have to-- I was like, "okay, I've, I've done it. I've reached my potential and now go try something else." It was really cool.

[00:14:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Surreal! What a moment! And I just, you know, and I actually think that is so important too, because I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't, who would discount being an artist on some level, because they don't make money off of it, or they-- that's not for other people, it's for themselves. And that doesn't discount anything. I mean, it's, it's okay. Like if that's not what you want to pursue, then that's fine. You know, so even having that perspective too. Yeah, I think there's a lot of discreditation that happens with...

[00:15:27] Rachel Moore: I think you're right. Like, there's that word? And I, I don't know that I pronounce it right. But dilettante, I think is the word, like, you know, it's sort of a derogatory word saying like, oh, you're just a person who dabbles in things. And you know, I've tried to really embrace that. And I'm like, yeah, I do, because I, I have one life and I want to do a lot of stuff. I want to do a lot of different stuff. I want to do a lot of different art now. And I mean, I've had two different careers, you know, so I don't know. I mean, I, that's not to say on the other hand too, I really do admire people who dedicate their lives to one form of art and, and perfect it in, you know, in the ways that they do. And that's what they want to do. That's great too. I, you know, I think you're right. That it's like, it's different for everybody. And it doesn't, we don't have to discredit people just because they're not like an expert. That's a very, Hmm. It makes me wonder, you know, it's just kind of a very Western, so to speak, way of looking at things, you know, just like it's a little patriarchal, to be honest with you, just like, well, if you're going to do this, you better get paid for it. That type of thing.

[00:16:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. No, I agree. Yeah. And, and I do love that perspective and yeah. Well, thank you for sharing about that experience. It was actually really encouraging.

[00:16:33] Rachel Moore: Oh good.

[00:16:33] Lindsey Dinneen: I was like, maybe I could do it, and my hands could be shaking the whole time, but I still tried.

[00:16:39] Rachel Moore: Yes. Well, that's the thing. The more you do it, just like it's true, you know, the more you do it, the more confident you get, the less your body rebels and thinks you're going to die. So it'll be, it'll be fine. Yes.

[00:16:49] Lindsey Dinneen: It's so funny too, because it depends on the performance that for myself, even when I go out into stage and I've been doing this for years, I'm a very confident performer. I love it, but I'll go out on stage for that first like opening thing. And I'm like, what? My legs are jelly now. Like...

[00:17:07] Rachel Moore: Yeah. That adrenaline always gets you, right? Yeah. The adrenaline rush right at the beginning. Right. Like, okay. Then we settle in. Yeah.

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup. Oh man. Oh, that's fantastic. Okay. And you kind of briefly mentioned this improv project that you're a part of. So first of all, I love the concept --improv for therapists or therapists improving or whatever. That's super fun, but yeah, tell me a little bit about, oh my gosh. How did you get into improv?

[00:17:35] Rachel Moore: Well, I actually got into improv in the real world. I don't know how to, we're talking about it these days, but before the pandemic-- oh, I actually got into it through music because I had always been wanting to try improv. I thought it'd probably be okay at it and have fun with it. But it always kind of felt really intimate. And so the first improv class I took in person was musical improv. And it's great. You just go on stage and you make up songs and you sing and it's awesome. I don't know how awesome it might feel for you at this point. But for me it was like, right, if you told me to get up and dance, I don't know how I do-- but the singing, I was like, yeah, I can do this. And it was so fascinating to me because I can tell when I'm doing musical improv or like regular talking improv, I can honestly like literally feel the different parts of my brain being activated.

[00:18:22] And for some reason, for me, it's a lot easier to make up stuff as I'm singing than to make up stuff as I'm talking. It must be just literally different parts of the brain. So anyway, that's how I got into it was through musical improv. And then I decided to take like the whole series of improv classes locally here. We had a a show a December 2019. And that was just like the most fun thing ever. And yeah, and then later I think on a Facebook ad or something, I, I found this improv for therapists group. It's actually run by some folks out of Second City in Chicago. One of the cool things about the pandemic is now we can do things on Zoom and have a lot more access that way. And so it's a zoom class and it's been really fun.

[00:19:04] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds like so much fun. I love that you're doing that. Yeah. Well, and you know, your background has been so diverse and I just love the fact that you are not stopping. Like you said, you have one life, but you're, you're choosing to dabble in a lot of different things, I think. Yeah. So much value to that. You're, you're constantly learning and growing and, and just, I know it's funny to say this as an outsider, but I just keep thinking like, "oh man, kudos to you for just continuing to like push yourself." Cause it's easy to get comfortable, you know?

[00:19:35] Rachel Moore: No, I don't know what that feels like. I don't know. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Like, yeah. I, I can't imagine what it would be like to stop creating and performing. And I mean, I don't know about you. Like, it's just where, Hmm. How do I put this? Like, this is where I feel like life is. That's where I find that, you know, life, spirit or whatever you want to call it. There's probably so many words for it, but you know, to me, that's what life is about. I remember watching this documentary on a plane randomly, but I'm watching this documentary about-- oh my gosh. Her name is escaping me. " Take a Little Piece of My Heart." That singer. What's her name?

[00:20:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh no. Oh man. You're asking the wrong person. Everyone knows that song. And I'm like, probably! I have no idea.

[00:20:22] Rachel Moore: I'm refraining, I'm refraining from breaking out. It's a song, but I will not do that right now. There was this documentary about her and she was a very troubled person. And one of those people who died at 27, like in the sixties, you know, there's like a lot of people who died of overdoses and things like that. I can't remember exactly how she died and I can't remember her name. Anyway, I'm watching it. The important part is I'm watching this documentary and they said, yeah, the, the trouble, the trouble she had in her life was that when she was on stage, she thought that was, you know, the real life in the real world. And I remember sitting there, oh, it's not. I was like, oh no. I didn't realize that stage was not like the actual real world and everything else was something else in between times you're onstage. But anyway, that's kind of how I see life sometimes.

[00:21:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I love it. When you, when you said that line, something about, yeah, life, life is not unsafe, but I'm like, but it is.

[00:21:14] Rachel Moore: I felt so strange. Cause they were like, you know, for her, for this person, this analysis was saying like, "oh, well she got so many accolades and people loving her" and I could see how, you know, it might be a problem in life if you're not understanding the difference between like people liking your art, as opposed to people responding to you as a human. I mean, you know, that's something that can get a little weird. I think sometimes for us creative folks too, having that healthy separation. But, but yeah, but just that general idea of life, real life is onstage. I'm like, "ah, I don't think I, I don't think that's true for me." Nope.

[00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Nope. I would agree with you. And I definitely resonate too with, with what you were talking about of like, yeah. I don't, I, I can't relate to the idea of not continuing to learn and grow and try new things. Yeah. Literally somebody the other day in social media was talking about being bored. And I was like, man, I have no concept of bored. Like I don't remember being bored since I was maybe five. You know, I just there's so much to explore. There's so much to learn. How can you be bored?

[00:22:19] Rachel Moore: I know. Sometimes I think it's so funny, and it's funny to me because I don't think it's true and I don't think it'll happen, but my husband will say like, "what if we run out of things to talk about?" and I'm like, "what are you talking about? Like, do you know how many things there are in the world that we could talk about?"

[00:22:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. I love that. Yeah. Well, I know a few specific stories had kind of come to mind when you were contemplating how art has impacted you and I'd love if you wouldn't mind sharing some of those?

[00:22:50] Rachel Moore: You bet. Yeah. I mean, I did have on my list singing my art, that aria, for my teachers and other performance things, which maybe we'll have time for, maybe not. But I think there were a couple of things that like, yeah, I really wanted to, to talk about, and I guess talking about visual art, like I remember the first time I got to go to a real art museum. So I grew up in Idaho and when I was growing up, like especially then, you know, now there's more stuff there to do, but when I was growing up, one of the bummer things was, you know, nobody would come to our town to perform. Like no big names or anything like that. That wasn't even a thing. And like the closest city to us was Salt Lake City, which is five hours away.

[00:23:30] So it's like, I didn't have access to a lot of, you know, First-class high quality art or whatever. That was the bummer part. The good part was that, that meant that kind of like we're talking about like, my friends, my siblings, like we would make stuff ourselves. You know, we were, I would, they just encouraged me to like, make my own little videos and shows and stuff. So that was cool. The first time that I went to a real art museum, I had a layover in Chicago and I had time to hang out with a friend. That was in 1995. And we went to the Art Institute and I saw paintings who I love and I, and I saw like, like all these people and that's actually reminded me of another memory that I hadn't written down, but I thought about. So I told you I studied poetry in school and creative writing and stuff. A few years after this, I went to London and I went to Westminster Abbey and, you know, saw the people buried there.

[00:24:22] And then, you know, Geoffrey Chaucer, I think is buried there, but then they also have memorials to like Shakespeare and Keats and Shelley. And I was just in tears, like realizing that these people actually existed. You know, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's real. You know, the, they did live, you know, these, these things that they created, like are from actual people. And here's the proof, I don't know. It just hit me. Yeah. Like I said, it was just crying and happy. And so anyway, that's just a couple of little stories yet.

[00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that. I've also been to Westminster Abbey and it is a very surreal experience when you're, you're reading these names and you go, oh, my word, like it is, it's like a transformative experience. You're like, there's hundreds of, thousands of years of history, like here, right here. It's the most crazy experience. I relate to that. Yeah. Those stories are powerful. And you know, I'm also curious and obviously you don't have to be specific at all, but I'm wondering if you've experienced-- I'm sure you have some really like interesting breakthrough moments from some of your clients that you've worked with, where it was sort of like, "oh wow. I needed that today." You know?

[00:25:41] Rachel Moore: Yeah. You know, I think I actually, this kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier about, you know, maybe being a dabbler in different things or, you know, or do you have to be an expert or blah, blah, blah. I have had with a couple of clients who have, have come in and they've told me, like, I need to do this particular, you know, I need to reach this particular artistic pinnacle. And if I don't, it means I'm not an artist. And I remember, you know, early on when I say things to them, like, you know, if self-expression is something that's important to you. If, if that's, you know, what you are really going for here? Which, which it sounds like it is as opposed to sort of the ego idea, right, of being a, a whatever artist. I said, you know what, there's lots and lots of different ways that you can do that. That means that look nothing like that. You know, maybe, I don't know. I'm just going to throw this out there. Like, you know, being a symphony musician for, you know, for example, some that you may even like better. And when I, when I say that early on to some of my clients, they just look at me like, so pitifully, like I have no idea.

[00:26:43] And then eventually, sometimes there'll be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe I can do my own thing and create my own artistic life and do the things that I want to do that really speak to me that maybe other people may look at and say like, oh, that's not real art or, oh, that's, you know, I don't see that as legitimate." It's like, you know, "Hey, in my opinion, I'm like, who cares about them? This is not about them. This is about you and your life and what again, what you want to do with your one life." Right? So yeah, that's always an interesting experience. I just love it. You know, with, I know what they're thinking. They're like, "oh, poor Rachel. She just has no idea what it's really like," which that may be also be true. I wouldn't say that's not true, but yeah, it's, it's always a good discussion at least.

[00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I'm so glad that you bring that into your practice because I think there's-- that something that I've talked about a lot with my students, because I also teach is, you know, sometimes they'll come to me and yeah, "I have this starry-eyed vision of like, oh, I just want to dance with X company or whatever." And you know, a lot of times I talk about how there are a lot of avenues to your dreams, to reaching your dreams.

[00:27:57] Rachel Moore: Oh, I like how you say that. Like I'm gonna borrow that.

[00:28:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cause there's not one straight path. And even if you would like there to be, it just doesn't exist. So I think that having the idea in your mind of, there are lots of ways to accomplish your dreams if you're open to different opportunities, because, you know, if you're so stuck on one avenue, you're going to miss all the different spikes out that that are all of these other options too. So I love that you do that because I think that's just so important. I mean, I'm maybe not exactly exhibit A, but I have to say that, like, you know, I had the privilege of getting to dance for other companies, but it wasn't really until I branched out and started my own, that I finally was fulfilled. And that's a very risky thing to do in the dance world, just because it's like starting something from scratch, and nobody knows who I am and why should they come to see my shows and all that? And it's a lot of hard work, but oh my gosh, I've never felt more fulfilled, you know? And, and so sometimes just being open to like a different avenue, you know.

[00:29:08] Rachel Moore: That's being creative, right? You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the spirit of the soul of creativity right there. Right. It's like, oh, maybe I don't have to do it like everybody else does. Or like people say I have to.

[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Exactly. And I just love that. Yeah. So I'm curious, I'm sure you have a lot of, well, I'm totally extrapolating so let me start over. I imagine that you have people that come to you who are maybe more in the beginning stages of their careers. And, and what advice would you have for somebody who's either kind of trying to make this happen? And it's like super nervous or whatever, or maybe they're at a point, maybe they're at a turning point in their career or they're ready to do something else. I mean, what kind of advice do you have for people who are kind of on that path.

[00:30:03] Rachel Moore: Hm. Wow. You know, I'm not sure. And this, this actually might kind of open up another can of worms, which is to talk about kind of the type of therapy that I do. Because it's true that I work with therapists. A lot of people think I'm an art therapist by the way, which I'm not that's a whole nother thing, but I actually do a type of therapy called EMDR, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which is such a mouthful. But honestly what I, what I would actually do is we would start a treatment plan on that issue. So I would ask like, "okay, what's the issue you want to work with, work on? Tell me more about it." They would explain to me like, like you're saying, you know, like maybe like, "I'm not sure what I want to do. Do I want to keep pursuing this? I've got this and this issue, you know, about it." And then we would look at maybe some memories, some past history that might be affecting how they feel right now. We would talk about some present triggers that are affecting them. And then we would talk about how they want to deal with it in the future.

[00:31:00] So I've just kind of given you like a little brief summary of what EMDR is like, but the idea of EMDR-- we may have traumas in the past that are affecting us now. And what happens with trauma is that it just doesn't get processed in our brain. So, I mean, I have some early artistic traumas. One of them, you know, caused me to not write a song for like 30 years after it happened. You know, I wrote a song when I was eight, got this great response from my family and then wrote another song and they kind of ignored it and said they didn't like it as much. And that caused me to not write again for like 25, 30 years. That for example, would be a good memory for me to try to reprocess. And I can tell you about what that reprocessing is like, if you want to know, but that's a whole nother thing.

[00:31:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah!

[00:31:45] Rachel Moore: But. Well, yeah, well, okay. So here's the idea is that they think that they're not sure why EMDR works, but they think that perhaps when we're sleeping and our eyes are moving back and forth in REM sleep, that that is actually the brain processing memories, you know? So like, oh, let's see. I had a sandwich for lunch today. I think I can put that long-term storage. We won't need to grab that anytime soon, you know, that type. But when there's trauma, like, oh, I had a sandwich for lunch today and like it had a cockroach in it or something, if there was a lot of trauma around that, what can happen is that that memory will just kind of be floating around and not really have a place to land and not be processed. And then later you might find you get triggered and it's almost like you're back in that old memory and you can see, hear, feel, see the things as if it's happening right now. That's kind of the way that trauma works in our minds and our bodies.

[00:32:35] And so we literally will, you know, sort of bring it, the memory and then literally do eye movements. And so I've been doing this online, but you could do it in the office too, you know, kind of with different ways to have people move their eyes back and forth to reprocess that memory. And then I'll ask them, "okay, what do you notice?" They'll tell me. I say, "okay, go with that." So we reprocess, we bring down-- that's the desensitization or part, we bring down the distress of that memory so that they can just think of it like any other memory. You don't forget it, but you're not totally freaked out about it anymore. And then the next part is like, they may have some negative connotations that come with that memory.

[00:33:12] So like, you know, "I'm not good enough or I'm unsafe," things like that. We work with that, reprocess that, do the eye movements with like a more true statement, like "I'm safe now," or, you know, "I'm, I am a good person." And then the last part, which you may like this part too, being a dancer, the last part is that we pay attention to the body. So I'll ask, "okay. When you think of this memory and maybe the words, I'm a good person, where do you feel in your body?" They'll tell me, "well, I feel some tightness in my throat or my chest," something like that. And then we'll do eye movements on that. Reprocess that until the body is clear. And then we move on to the next memory.

[00:33:49] So once we're done with the memories, again, you know, we talk about present situations and then we talk about how you want to deal with it in the future. So in this case, dealing with it in the future, it might be like, "okay, how do you want to approach your next your next audition," for example, and "let's talk about the positive belief you want to have about yourself in that moment." And then we work through that. So that's kind of what it's like, that's what I do.

[00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, and that's the perfect segue because I know that you are fully booked. You are obviously a very effective therapist, which is fantastic. But I know that you are now kind of in the process of creating sort of an online opportunity. So I would love if you would tell us more about that.

[00:34:33] Rachel Moore: Sure. Sure. Thanks for asking. Yeah. I have done for like 10 or 12 years groups based on the book, "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron. We just go through like each chapter. There's 12 chapters, so it would take 12 weeks and go through each chapter. Up to this point, all the groups have been in person. Now, you know, after the pandemic or during, or wherever we are when we're recording this, I feel ready to do a program or workshop, 12 week workshop based on "The Artist's Way" online, feel comfortable enough in that venue now to do that. So I'm super excited about it and it's always, it's honestly, like one of my very favorite things to do in life is to run these.

[00:35:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And where could we maybe find out about that or, or connect with you so that when it is live, we could jump on board with that?

[00:35:19] Rachel Moore: Sure. You can go to my website at rachelmoorecounseling.com. And there is the, you'll find a link to "The Artist's Way" group. You'll also find a button where you could set up a time to chat with me and I'll talk with anybody, you know, about it. We'll do a free 15 minute chat about whatever I can help you with. So if you've got questions about "The Artist's Way" group, if you need to find a therapist in California to work with, I love helping people with referrals because it can be really hard to find a therapist for various reasons. So I'm super happy to help out.

[00:35:49] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Thank you. And then I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:35:56] Rachel Moore: Ah, yeah. Sounds great.

[00:35:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:36:04] Rachel Moore: Oh, that's a great question. Wow. The first thing that comes into my mind for what it's worth is, is, is actually my friend's definition of music. And she says that in order for something to be music, it has to have a rhythm. And I, yeah, I kind of feel like I could apply that to almost all art forms, right? Like I like to do a lot of photography too, you know, just, just like in, you know, amateur photography, whatever. But I like to find like, okay, what's in the front of this photo, what's in the back? What are the patterns of this flower that I'm taking a picture of? Right? Like what's the rhythm of this. There's something in there and I could probably write or talk more about this at some point, but there's something in there about the rhythm of music or visual art or dance or writing, especially I definitely, I, when I was a newspaper copy editor, I always have to check myself because I tended to like the headlines that sounded the best rather than maybe were the best written. So I'm like, okay, wait, it has to be accurate too, not just sound great. So yeah, something about that, that the rhythm and the sound. Yeah. That's the best I can do for an answer to that question.

[00:37:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:37:21] Rachel Moore: I know it's kind of a, that's been kind of a weird idea lately --the truth, but I think to shine a light on things that maybe for various reasons, society or people have said, you know, we can't look at this to shine a light in a way that is accessible. I think that if we just like, you know, shove things in people's faces like, eh, that's not really doing the job of art in my opinion. To invite people to see things differently, that's what I think the role of an artist.

[00:37:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:38:22] Rachel Moore: Right. So I used to be a journalist. You might be able to guess where I would fall on this. I love learning about things. So for me personally, yeah, I think I'd have to go with inclusive because then I thought about this, of course just like every, I guess creative person does, you know, do we need to know the story, but like, I always want to know the story. I always want to know more about where it came from, what the context was, what it means. And I love how that can always change too. When we find out different things or we have different perspectives as a culture, like, yeah, I don't, I don't think that art ever exists in a vacuum nor do I think it should. So I'd have to land on inclusive for that, that answer.

[00:39:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Very good. That makes sense. Yes. I guess I would have probably been surprised having talked to you if you went the other way, but yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, oh my goodness. Rachel, you are just so amazing and inspiring and I just really just want to commend the work that you do and not just for yourself. And you know, like I know even a lot of your art has been a little bit, maybe more for yourself, but you're just constantly-- I just love that you're kind of still learning and growing and you're still performing and you're doing all these cool things, but then you also have this practice and that is seriously helps other people. And obviously, you know, as an artist, I'm, I'm partial. So thank you for focusing on artists. I think that's just a gap in the market and I appreciate that. So thank you so much for what you bring to the world. I, I just want to say that I know you're making a difference and it's so obvious just even talking to you. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

[00:40:07] Rachel Moore: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Lindsey, for saying that. I really, really appreciate it. And it means a lot to me that, that you can see the value of having a therapist for artists, because I really think there is a lot of value in that. And thank you for doing this podcast, it's so much fun and I'm so glad that you're doing it and, and bringing artsy things into the world. It's great. Love it.

[00:40:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Yes. Oh yeah. It's, it's my happy place. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. Please definitely check out Rachel's website and if you're so inclined, like she said, she offers these awesome 15 minute calls that you can take advantage of and really, you know, get some advice or learn more about this upcoming group that she's going to be hosting and jump on board with that too. Obviously, like I said, Rachel brings a lot of value and inspiration to the world. So definitely want to hop on with that. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:41:07] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:41:16] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In this week's episode, I welcome Natsune Oki! Hailing from Japan, Natsune is an author, speaker, and entreprenuer, who has reimagined herself and her career multiple times. Her unique perspective about creativity and art allow her to inspire others with a positive mindset coupled with business acumen. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Natsune and the book she wrote!)

Get in touch with Natsune Oki: https://www.lifeupeducationtv.com/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

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Episode 69 - Natsune Oki

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of artfully told I'm your host Lindsay. And I am so excited to have as my guest today, Natsune Oki, who is an author, speaker and entrepreneur. And she actually is coming to us from Tokyo, which is awesome. I'm super excited to chat with you about art. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:36] Natsune Oki: Hi, Lindsay, thank you so much for having me today. I'm also very excited as well.

[00:02:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I know you have a super interesting background. I mean, obviously what you're up to nowadays is amazing. So of course I'd love to hear maybe how you got started and, and how it led to what you're doing now if you don't mind sharing.

[00:02:59] Natsune Oki: Yes. My name is Natsune Oki. I, I was born and raised in Japan and so well, not Tokyo, but Japan and I decided to study abroad when I was 18. And then I went to the United States and I finished my business degree. Well, I would say I didn't finish my business degree, but basically I did like halfway on my college and I decided to work like getting work experience in America. And at that time, like my English was broken. I didn't even have a degree. I didn't have enough money, like nothing, but I just decided to just put myself out there, right? And then see what I go to get. And then very fortunately this time turned out to be one of the best time that I had in the States where I, I was able to work in like startup, entrepreneur- heavy like community. Because back then I lived in Seattle and Seattle was such like a hippie community for tech startups.

[00:03:59] So during that time I was able to network with lots of entrepreneurs and investors who were working around technology and then who were really being in the possibility of with technology and expanding that possibility further. And I was really intrigued by it. I was really inspired by the vision that they had and that story kind of delays to later what I'm doing today, but I'm going to come back to it later. And then after that time kind of ended, I decided to go back to school to get my economics degree. And then I finished economic study and once again without like no plan, I didn't even have money or job lined up or anything, but I just decided to move to Florida and you know, without having anything really like no connection, no place to live, like it was really tough, but I just wanted something different.

[00:04:57] So I moved and, yeah, some like really hard things happen because it was just really random, right? But I did it anyway and I was able to get like a consulting job. And then I worked as like a consultant, like digital marketer, marketer kind of role, the business agency. And then after that, I, after a while, I decided to come back to Japan for a little bit, because, there was opportunity with Olympics that was supposed to happen last year. So I came back and then I was still working with the same company, but then I always had this like tremendous interest in entrepreneurship. And I knew that I was going to have that like entrepreneurship experience at some point. And I think it was going to be actually, I was going to, I knew that I was going to be entrepreneur for like a very long time. I don't say I just needed to like time, like when that was going to happen. And that was the perfect timing.

[00:05:56] So I decided to go like individually, like I just stopped the contract with the previous company and basically I'm doing what I was doing at my previous company. I do it like individually now. And that's how Foreign Connect to basically started. And I explain Foreign Connect as a business service that helps Japanese companies to expand their business launch and expand their businesses in America, and also Latin America because I have some connections in Florida. And Florida is like full of like, like Spanish speaking people. But basically that's what I do with Foreign Connect. And then I also have another very, very exciting media channel, which is the platform that I reached out to you from. It's called the LifeUp Education TV. And coming back to the earlier story, the reason I started that I started LifeUp Education TV is because I was really inspired by all of these tech entrepreneurs, their ambition toward like expanding the possibility of humanity.

[00:07:02] And I mean, of course it's a business, so they do have this like money mentality and business mindset behind it. But I was more intrigued about it how they were so visionary and excited about the possibility of a technology, how that can make impacting people's lives more than like making money necessarily. That's why, like I made this tonight, the shift from studying business to economics, because economics, you have more space for broader thing than just money, but you know, it has consideration for economics. It has constellation for education, political science, and more things that has to do with people element of the society. So I, I made that size shift. And then, so today how that relates to like LifeUp Education TV. So like I said, I was really fascinated by how people were so excited about the future.

[00:07:57] And when I think about future, I think of it as possibility and creativity, something that we haven't seen yet, right? And then in the same token, I guess in the opposite side of it is a past. There's a past. What is past? The past is what we already know what we already know as, for example, data, knowledge, or the history we already recorded it. And with having that, to being the opposite side of the spectrum, I believe that future is existing already inside of us. We tend to look at future as like external thing that we were searching for, right? Like the humanity is searching for the future, but I think vice versa. Like we already have the potential, we already contain the potential for the future. We just need to dig into it. And we just need to find the possibility and the future inside of us from our creativity we already have and what prevents us to do. So it's sometimes it's data and knowledge and experiences and the limits, so to speak. And how, because, you know, the limits tells us something is impossible, right?

[00:09:16] Because, and then by the data we've already done it. It's impossible. Like that's the forest that we are against. So that's why, like, that is why I'm so excited about the future and really talking about pushing the limit. And when I talk about pushing the limit, I think like great connection between creativity has to do with like creativity and like art, our ability with like creating something from nothing, right? And I call that as a form of art. So this is why, like my channel LifeUp Education TV heavily promotes the idea that the potential that put the full potential of humanity really lays on our art capability. And that's what we like to talk about in this show is how can we unlock it? How can we stimulate it? How can we take the most advantage?

[00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That sounds amazing. Well, first of all, oh my goodness. So much of your story is so incredibly inspiring. I, I'm so impressed with you for coming, you know, all this way. And then starting kind of from scratch a couple of times just trying to, yeah, kind of discover what fits you, where you're meant to be kind of thing. And working with all these different people, I mean, kudos to you. That, that could not have been easy on any level. So I'm just really impressed with you for, for just being so brave and bold and going for your, your dreams and your goals.

[00:10:50] Natsune Oki: Thank you so much. That is a very kind thing to say. Thank you so much.

[00:10:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course, of course.

[00:10:55] Natsune Oki: Yeah. I think one thing I learned that definitely helps me to go through this, you know, bold journey is because at the core I understand, like that's probably why the top of these and why I'm so like out there is because I know that fundamentally my success doesn't mean anything to anyone but for me, and the same token, like my failure doesn't mean anything to anyone as much as it does to me, you know? And when I start believing in that thought, when I started subscribing in the thought, like all the sudden I'm not so afraid of what people think about me. And I have the courage to try everything that just makes me happy and other than makes me look like I'm successful. And I figured everything out, you know?

[00:11:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that perspective too, because that gives you so much more freedom to explore and try things and not, yeah, not worry about the outward facing appearance of anything. It's, it's for you. So I love that outlook. Oh my goodness. So yeah, so obviously, you know, you've gotten to do you-- well, you've gotten to because you've created these, these amazing opportunities for yourself-- but you've gotten to do some pretty amazing things. So I liked what you were talking about in that you feel like creativity is the future. I mean, that's what makes you excited is there's so much potential for the future when we allow ourselves to be creative. So I wonder if you don't mind elaborating a little bit about that and talking about how your platform allows people to, to explore their creativity.

[00:12:41] Natsune Oki: And I think just like, just like arts themselves, what's so interesting about arts is that there's no one answer, you know, like arts are, is like so subjective. It's so different to one person to another, like what's valuable, it's so different. Like so absolute different people. And then I think it doesn't have to have only one fit it, like one size-fit-all kind of answer. But to me, what works for me or what, what speaks to me now, they're the loudest. And also the gift that I have is definitely and like the mindset, managing the mindset and also helping others to do that. So with my channel, we focus a lot on psychology. We focus a lot on like managing the mindset part, which really has to do a lot with emotion, which is once again, it's very subjective matter and we don't have to have like one size fits all answer to what is happiness, for example, right?

[00:13:51] So we can discover different perspectives. And then we can encourage people to also explore different concepts with us. And then I'm hoping like that can lead it to some sort of realization that can like fertilize your creativity in your way. And that's something that I can't decide for the audience, you know? So I'm just creating everything of like what I think is helpful for people to have a good mindset, to have a good psychology for them to feel quote unquote motivated or I guess willing, willing to pursue whatever they want to pursue. And then the rest is up to them because I can't teach them how they should grow, but it's up to them, you know? So, yeah, that would be my answer is my way of contributing to that conversation is talking about mindset, which is something that speaks to me. The nowadays for me, like that's how I learn in terms of even creativity, but also that's the gift that I have for other people, like how I can contribute to others. So that's what I would say.

[00:15:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I love that because I think you're absolutely right. The mindset. I mean, you can, in theory, be as creative as you wanted to, but if you don't have the right mindset, it's just so much harder to, to, to really be successful in the long term. And, and like you mentioned, you mean success kind of looks different to different people as it should, but, but even just to maintain a low level of creativity, yeah, having, having your mind in a good, healthy place is definitely a big, big component of that. So, yeah. I love that.

[00:15:41] Natsune Oki: I, I think when I look at, I guess, creativity or like creating something from nothing. That's something that I'm good at. And that's something as an industry wise that I have been involved with, with my business posts also with my experiences, like a lot of those businesses have been startups, like starting from scratch is my spirituality. And when it comes to that, I think there's no much difference between like creating art, to like creating a new business for instance, or creating a new venture. And creating something from nothing is very exciting, but at the same time, it takes tremendous amount of like a mental management, like a mental focus. Because things happen that disappoint you. And I'm not talking about like creating one piece of art, but for instance, like if you're artist, maybe you are in the stump of like, you can't come up with some creative idea, you're feeling down, like you're even doubting yourself as an artist. What can you do? I think it really comes down to managing your mind, to bring yourself to like never give up during those times. And that's kind of how I see, see it when it comes to creating something from nothing. Because it's not going to be like easy all the time, you know, like whatever you're working on, whether that's art, whether that's like starting a business from nothing, or really like just creating a family, like starting from nothing, I'm talking about, I think it takes mental strengths and that's, that's something that I'm good at talking about. So that's how I contribute.

[00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. I love that a lot. And I know that you have also written a book and I would love to hear about the book. Yeah. And also just sort of your journey to create that, because I know that that's a really big undertaking and, and another kind of step in the creative direction. So yeah, I'd love to hear about that.

[00:17:49] Natsune Oki: Yeah. So it started from me being a business. Mine is how the book started. Like I never really thought like one day I'm going to be an author. Like I didn't plan for it. I just thought what made sense was like, I, I little bit earlier, I said, you know, I have the humility to not assume how I can impact other people's life because that's like up to them. And then, you know, even if I have my mission and I have my hope or the romance of how my channels should have speak to others, at the end of the day, I can't control what people think of it, or I can't control what people think of my art or I can't, right? So the same way I, I have the humility to understand that the judger is my audience. And when I have that mindset behind how I create LifeUp Education TV, the practicality understanding of how I should my marketing, it just made sense for me that I have a many, as many outlets as I can because some people learn the different contents through video, but some people also like to learn it from through readings.

[00:19:10] Some people also like to learn it from audio listening, like how we are doing today. So in terms of like, why I may come up with the idea of big was mostly because of the strategy, but I'll also, I wanted to write it because I shared my method that I had, that I talked about in my book to my friends. And yeah ,they implemented it and they really liked it. And I never really talk about the method, like the method part that I talk about in my book seems to be very, very interesting to many readers that read my book, but that, that wasn't like something that I pushed with my marketing, for example, like that, wasn't the main point that I wanted to push. It just happened and a lot of people liked it, but basically that really the main, main point that I want to with a book is really the message I'm pushing with LifeUp Education TV to be with, just to tell people like it, it can be scary, but you know, as long as you manage your mind, you can literally achieve anything, right? I mean, it sounds kind of not allowed to talk right here, but I talk about it in a perspective of like how one person, how someone can create mental transformation in three different phases in my book.

[00:20:27] So in this book, I talk about phases, as I mentioned. How can you make that mental transformation? The first phase I talk about. Commitment. The first phase is all about building up emotion. So in this space you don't need anything logical, like, because when you think everything logical, you will never try anything. So in this phase, I really want you to focus on finding what it is that gives you the burning desire. Like something that really excites you. And then I give you a different questions to consider and then really understand what it is. And then one full meter that I talk about in this chapter is you have to have two things. One is inspiration, like something that you are so excited about once again, and then you also need to have desperation. What does that mean? That this desperation in essence, that you have to be sick of whatever you are right now. Like you have to have organized that frustration you have for the fact that you're not achieving something that you truly wanted to, and then you need to organize it and then you need for, for you to come to the commitment phase, you have to have inspiration that's exceeding that inspiration because if the inspiration is bigger than the inspiration, you don't feel like, like, if you don't believe that whatever you are dreaming of right now is possible to achieve, you're not going to try it, right? So that's the first phase I talk about. This is a very short description.

[00:22:04] And then in the second phase, I talk about perseverance and more specifically, I also talk about, I call it identity circle, but what it is is really talk of, talk of self-awareness. Like, what do you really want? Like we talked about what you want to achieve in a first chapter, but now let's face it with some logical thinking. Like let's, let's change our perspective. In the first phase, we inspire you to think of the leavers that you're getting from the dream, whatever you created. But in a second phase with the logical thinking, now I'm going to say to change the perspective and ask you, you're not really working toward the new world that you thought about in the first phase, but in reality, you're working for those journey. Like you're working for that you had to go through for you to get to wherever you are. So think about all the possible failures you're going to have. And can you have like going through that failure, like let's align who you are, what you want with like what you want to achieve. So we really dig deep into like, identity of like what you think you want and if who you are sort of going through different questions.

[00:23:24] And you also talk about how to manage our mind when we go through hardships, rejections, because things like that happen. And then finally, on the third phase, we speak about what is happiness and what is success? And because in the second we talked about the most important thing, which is let's need to find failure. So regardless of the hardships and rejections, you might go through like, here's how you think of them, right? So that I can keep track of like, you know, it doesn't matter. Like even if these things happen, like it doesn't matter, I'm going to do my thing and I can keep going. Like, that's, that's my goal of like how I want your mind to be. But because I want this whole journey to be like really thoughtful and reading like a deep journey that I guess I, I want people to think about what they want, and then what they want in their life in a very, very deep sense. In the third phase, we talk about the definition of success and happiness this time. Because we already done that for the failures.

[00:24:29] And actually this is what a lot of people miss and a lot of people, a lot of people by that, I mean like a lot of books also, we don't talk much about the definition of happiness and success, but in, in reality, this is very important topic that no one, like people often forget to talk about. And we just assume that this is something that, that's common among many people, and we don't really have. We don't really take the time to think about them in a customized manner to what feels right for us to each one of us, right? And it can be completely different answer to person to person. So in a third phase, we really talk about it and that basically summarize the whole bit.

[00:25:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I, I really love what your book addresses, because I think it's so important. I love the way that you were describing it. I definitely want to read it because, you know, just like you were talking about going through those three stages and they're each so important and how mindset is kind of woven through each and deciding what success is, deciding what happiness is for you. I think that's such a key component that a lot times is overlooked ' cause we're so eager to sort of define it by other people's standards. So yeah, I love, I love the way that you're going about all of that encouraging creative people to, to be creative and to, to be brave and to go for it. But, but that, you're also giving them that framework. And like you were talking about with the second section, you know, like you said, disappointments that are going to happen, failures are going to happen. So how do you deal with that. And I, I think that that is so great because it sounds so practical. That's very cool. Well, so I know, again, that sort of, that creativity has always been kind of a part of your life. Is there, are there particular art forms that you practice regularly now? I mean, what you're doing is an art form too. I mean, speaking, writing, but also, are there other things that you also like to do yourself?

[00:26:37] Natsune Oki: Yeah. Actually everything I do is kind of creative because even Foreign Connect, my services more marketing and it has a lot of art elements to it. And with that, I LifeUp Education TV, obviously, like you said, like it's a speaking and that's a form of art. I like to speak and recently I started doing this thing called NFT. So I decided to talk, I decided to build some media around it as well, as well as publishing some arts myself. And I also like in LifeUp EducationTV, really the purpose of it is I want to talk about culture, arts, marketing, business. So a little bit of business side, like practical, like a business insight, but I definitely heavily, heavily like interested in talking about culture and arts. And one of the thing actually I started doing is I am putting out BDOs that has nothing to do with business, actually, something that just feels fun for me.

[00:27:40] And I eventually want to turn this into like entertainment platform as well. So a little bit of business education for that matter. But also I want to have some sort of like art, like music elements to it. So now if you go to my website, for example, you do see different channels talking about different things, but one channel, I have a committee plus life and they're there. And in that channel I sing. And I just talk about life because life is not one dimensional, you know, like you, you have different, you can have different interests and that's what makes you more interesting than just having one dimension of things to talk about. So, you know, as much as I'd like to talk about NFT stuff, which is like my mindset and somewhat serious stuff, I also put out some fun contents in there as well.

[00:28:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. That is so fun. And that must be kind of a nice balance too, because obviously you're, you're super into the entrepreneurial world. So having kind of an outlet that's just much more, maybe a little light, more lighthearted and fun is, is wonderful. I love that.

[00:28:53] Natsune Oki: You know, the thing is like my, my, another intention here is like, I think it's actually super, super smart move too in terms of PR and marketing as well in terms of business. You don't want to beat it out of them, you know? Being relevant to the current society is very important to me. And I needed to take out a advantage of the fact that I'm woman and young, like I'm in the best position in terms of being relevant to the current society, you know? Yeah. I can't let that opportunity slide for the sake of my ego of like how I should have looked, because in the end, like market is what decides and just like Kardashians, like they understood, like people make fun of them and stuff like that, but like they understood, you know. So for me, it's kind of like what works in a business is more important than my ego. And I think so, given that being said, I think being relevant to the current society is essentially currency, but in a different form.

[00:30:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. So yeah. So, well, you have an amazing story that kind of has led you to where you are, and obviously I'm sure there are so many more twists and turns, but I just, yeah, I'm so impressed with how brave you've been and bold you've been. And then, and, and then how you've just sort of, you know, dived headfirst into these, these adventures and these opportunities and, and really made them your own and then have now shared. Now you're sharing what you've been learning with others, and that's just really cool. So thank you for, you know, doing all of that, 'cause I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who are gonna want to connect with you and read your book and things like that. Is there a way for us to do that?

[00:30:53] Natsune Oki: Yes. So my name is once again, it's Natsune Oki, and that is a nice setup because if you search Natsune Oki, you're going to pretty much find everything about me. And my media channel is called the LifeUp Education TV. And in that a website, lifeupeducationtv.com. You can find all my social media, which I'm active on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and my book as well in there. So, and then my book is called "The Game of Self-Domination." I want to start hosting this show, like a Q and A show and I, I have this Facebook group that people can join to ask me questions and I, I can ask literally, any, any question people want to ask for, I just want to have like a real, more real, like interaction, like one-on-one level interaction, because I feel like that can help people more like a real question then, you know, me coming up with topics. So that's something that I, I'm starting to do so if anyone is interested, you can definitely join up the LifeUp Tribe, which is the name of the group. And then ask me any question you have about mindset and business and marketing like anything.

[00:32:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's great. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure that, yeah, that sounds great for me personally, but I'm sure that there are definitely some of our listeners who are going to be interested in all of that. So thank you for sharing. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:32:28] Natsune Oki: Yes. Yes. I mean, yeah, please.

[00:32:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:32:37] Natsune Oki: Yes. And I think I would have to go with, so we already talked about, but since I'm such like so heavy into what I do with it, I thought education may be the only thing that I can think of when I think about art is our possibility and our future.

[00:32:56] Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. That's, that's so unique, but I, and I just really like that answer. Okay. Second of all, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:33:09] Natsune Oki: I don't want to start sounding boring, but I really think that there's a key. Artists are the key player in terms of creating something new and creating a future of a future. Like it really like, you know, until now it's it was an engineer, but because now we've built some infrastructures for people to be more creative, possibility is unlimited, like with the artists combined with technology, like it's, it's going to be like crazy. Like it's going to be our future.

[00:33:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I love that. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes, title, the inspiration, whatever, just to give a little bit more context, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will?

[00:34:16] Natsune Oki: Hmm. I think if I answer this, according to what I believe in business, I say exclusive because, you know, there's a one story that I share often, which I learned because I studied economics. There's this concept in economy that was created by the father of economics, Adam Smith. He talks about invisible hand, which is really to say like, economy is at the optimal state when there's no government intervention. And which means that the economy is the healthiest when there's a fully, truly free competition in the economy like that, that was his, one of the theory that he had. And I often talk about that, like, you know, in terms of mindset, I think accountability is such an important thing. Like we can come up with all the reasons of like, why you fail, why you like, why you are not feeding it, whatever, like, whatever it is like, but in the end of the day, like the result is the results. Like if you fail, it's your fault that you didn't catch that the failure was coming. Like I'm not necessarily stating it as a fact, but I'm stating it as like, that's how the mindset should it be, you know? And so how does this relate to your question is that I was just looking at it from the different context here, right? Like I, I looked at your question from the, what I believe in business context, but I think we can to decide how people see. Like it's a free competition and it's up to consumer. Like, I don't assume that my content is good for everyone, you know? And I can't tell you like, like my contents, you know? So that's kind of how I see it.

[00:36:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I like that. Well, and that's a really unique perspective that you bring and I, I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming at it from more of a business, like you said, economics background and talking about it that way, because I agree with you. That makes a lot of sense to me. It's just a different way of looking at it. So thank you for that. I really, really liked that answer. Well you, like I said, are just so incredibly inspiring. Your story is amazing. What you've been able to accomplish is fantastic. I'm super excited to check out some of your work myself. I'm sure our listeners will be as well. You're just, just such a inspiring person. So thank you so much for what you are bringing to the world and I know you are just very humble in your approach. You, you want to put it out there and you want to hopefully, you know, make an impact, but you're, I just am so impressed with the way that you do that and the way that you just let it speak for itself. So thank you so much for what you do. Thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:37:26] Natsune Oki: Awesome. Thank you so much, Lindsey, for doing such an amazing job so also as a host, like thank you so much.

[00:37:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I appreciate that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:37:49] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:58] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In this week's episode, I welcome Justin Alcala! Justin is an author and tabletop gamer and his episode is packed with crazy, amazing stories, including about growing up in a house that was built on behalf of the South Side Mafia in Chicago with a tunnel to the house across the street. He shares about how his daughter has informed his work, along with his advice for aspiring artists. (Fun fact: the cover image is Justin's personal logo artwork!)

Get in touch with Justin Alcala: https://www.justinalcala.com

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Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 68 - Justin Alcala

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am excited to have as my guest today, Justin Alcala, who is an author, tabletop gamer, self-proclaimed nerd ninja from Chicago. And I am just so excited to hear exactly what that means, because I know there's a rich history I can already tell that goes into, to becoming who that person is. So thank you so much for being here, Justin. I appreciate you.

[00:02:46] Justin Alcala: Thank you. Thank you. You can add literary misfit too.

[00:02:50] Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. I like it. Fantastic.

[00:02:53] Justin Alcala: And dork.

[00:02:54] Lindsey Dinneen: But now, oh, I can't wait to hear all about all of it. So I will just love if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about, you know, your background, maybe how you got started into art in the first place, and then what's occupying your life now.

[00:03:10] Justin Alcala: Ooh. All right. We'll start off with a doozy. So I was, I'm a, I'm a novelist, short story writer. And I was sort of my background I was raised in the sootier part of the south side of Chicago. By no means that I have it bad, but, you know, observed some colorful events here and there that everyday people might not be witness to. But that plus I went to a little more stringent Catholic school and, and sort of union of the two taught me "Be quiet, comply. Don't be weird." And what I realized though is, you know, life is weird. And so those, you know, those curious thoughts, the innocently, spooky, funny, kinky ones, you know, that's really what makes a human who they are that's hard to ignore. So once I figured that out and I figured out that I wanted to get into writing during college I just sort of combined it all sort to start my writing career.

[00:04:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Okay. Yeah. And so having the experience of feeling like you had to conform and fit a certain mold, how did that inform what do you do now?

[00:04:15] Justin Alcala: Yeah, so long story. You know, my parents were blue collar artists. My mom was a painter, my dad, he did glassblowing metal work. He did all sorts of things, but, you know, to, to make ends meet. They, they both worked very hard. And I was in Catholic school and there were many rules. And, you know, so you have these interesting things where you're you're in the-- we'll call it industrial world-- growing up in, and long story short, after a while it started feeling wrong to always stay quiet. Always I was the little pipsqueak nerd by the way. And so opening my mouth either could get me beat up. It could get me in trouble with the nuns' ruler. Or just get me funny looks. So I stayed quiet for a long time, but then there's just one day where, when I was going to college believe it or not, I started off, I was going to be a police officer. And thank God I didn't go down that one because I probably couldn't fight, fight my way out of a wet paper bag.

[00:05:11] I had always been writing since I was as a kid, my poor buddies, John and Dave, and all of them. Johnny, I would write them comics and notice sort of graphic novels and other small pieces and forced them to read them. But one day I was in college. I was taking an English class and I had that Eureka moment where I'm like, I'm already always writing. I had been tabletop writing for a while as well, just you know, my friends playing Dungeons and Dragons, all those great stuff. And I realized that I loved it. And so I started indulging into it and kind of talking to professors, and as well I knew a couple people who knew editors for publishers and it kind of just sparked off from there. And you know, eventually you get some good encouragement, you get bad encouragement too, but you're getting good encouragement and people saying, "Hey, you know, you're really good at this." And you know, that was, holy smokes, 15-16 years ago. And now, poof, what do you know? You know, we have four novels out, about 30 publications and still going strong and it's just been, it's been fantastic.

[00:06:16] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Yeah. I know sometimes it can be hard too to finally let your voice be heard if you're not used to doing so, but kudos to you for getting to that place and, and, and, you know, recognizing that it, it's not only okay to be different, it's great to be different. I mean, people are unique and there are lots of different types of people who sort of end up liking the same things. Like, you know, I'm sure you met a whole group of people who were all tabletop gamers that just got along super well. And it's not like you by yourself anymore, you know, it's this group of people.

[00:06:54] Justin Alcala: You unionize, right?

[00:06:55] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I like it. I like it a lot. So, you know, as somebody who is not as familiar with that world, you had mentioned writing, tabletop writing, and I'm curious, because again, this is I, I'm not super familiar. So I'm just curious when you play these games, can you describe for those of us who don't know what it's like when you're playing them? So are you simultaneously writing it as you go?

[00:07:21] Justin Alcala: Oh yeah, I'm gonna warn you right here. This is about to get as nerdy as you can. This is going to sound painfully geeky, but let's, let's walk you through the process. So long story short you, and a couple of other people, you get together, you pick your game you want to play that's kind of your environment. That's your world. You know, you can think of fan fiction. It's, it's, it's what you want your protagonist to stay in. Your friends they go ahead. If you're going to be the storyteller. They pick their protagonist and they create them. And there's all sorts of rules that takes a couple of years of advanced math to figure out. But once you do all that, you are, you are their enabler. You tell their story, you move them through the story arc based off of this world that you've sort of created. And through rules of dice and stuff, you find out actually what the answers are. But what I found out was as I was going along, you know, everyone starts off pretty painful. That's the fun thing about the beginning is there are so many parallels with just writing a book, writing a graphic novel writing whatever, your novella, coincide completely with you just sitting around eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew with your nerdy friends while you play elves and wizards. So yeah, that's, that's in a nutshell and I promise it would be nerdy and holy smokes probably nerdier that I thought it would be.

[00:08:42] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. And I do appreciate it. It is something that's really interesting to me, but I haven't dabbled in it yet. So I'm, I'm always curious to know, okay, these art forms that I haven't learned about yet to like, just tell me all the details. I, I love the nerdy nitty gritty.

[00:08:58] Justin Alcala: You put your, you had to put your, your guard down in order to enjoy, but once you do, holy smokes, I've, I've had some of the most serious uptight people play these games and afterwards, "Why can't we do this again?" It's a lot of fun, I promise.

[00:09:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It sounds like, it sounds like a great blend of creativity and storytelling combined with the element of a certain level of chance, I guess, based on the dice and things like that. So you kind of have your story going, but then you also get the elements. I don't know, sounds like real life to me. You, you plan ahead. You have this idea for your protagonist and then life throws you a couple dice that you wouldn't have chosen.

[00:09:43] Justin Alcala: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then to add to that, to piggyback to that, and then you're doing it all with your buddies and friends. So it's a relaxed environment. It's a lot of fun. You get to sort of just play chalkboard with your own brain. It's a great, yeah.

[00:09:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and then, so I'm, I'm interested. Is it, how long do these games typically last?

[00:10:05] Justin Alcala: Oh, goodness. These days, so now that I have, now that I have children, I've had to taper it down a bit. So I you'll meet maybe once a week or so if all schedules workout and you'll do it for three or four hours long ago before my friends and I, the basement trolls, we had our responsibilities. You could do it all day, 13, 14 hours, show up to someone's house before lunch. Midnight, one in the morning, you're heading home and finally calling it quits for the day. So it all depends on your group, but they can go for a very long time and then they can go their campaigns themselves goes for years.

[00:10:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

[00:10:48] Justin Alcala: I told you.

[00:10:49] Lindsey Dinneen: It's commitment for you. I mean, I used to think that one game of Monopoly was commitment, but no.

[00:10:56] Justin Alcala: Oh no. This is a whole 'nother league.

[00:10:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, man. That's fantastic. Okay. And so obviously that, you know, sparked this interest in and realization that like, "Oh, if I can do this here, then I can also, I can write my own books." So tell me about the process of, of maybe your very first book. 'Cause I would imagine, and you can tell me if I'm incorrect, but I would imagine that might've been the hardest one just because the whole process was newer to you. But tell me about that.

[00:11:26] Justin Alcala: The first hurdle is always the worst hurdle, right? And I think I was, what I was doing if I can jump back into the way back machine, I was already writing, but I just didn't have the courage to really take it seriously. And so, because, you know, writing something for yourself is fun, but I'm actually creating something and sending it out to the world. That takes a great amount of courage and bravery. And most people, you know, they know they never want to do that. They never want to press that send button. And I think all that gaming actually really did was show me here's some of the other tools for, you know, creating yourself a plot and also gave me the courage to say, it's not that big of a deal. Just try it, do it. But my first book consumed-- which is, I think it came out in 2011 or 2012, its first edition-- was something that I had been brewing on for a long time. I, I grew up in a interesting house on the south side. It was the, some people call it the haunted house. There was, I could go into a whole 'nother story about. There was tunnels from the prohibition under our house and the house across the street from us that connected, but that's a whole 'nother thing, but there was a, it was a kind of a creepy house. And I always liked ghost stories as well.

[00:12:37] And when we'd go to the libraries, I would always pick up The Goosebumps. I'd pick up the scary stories to tell in the dark. And so I had been sitting on those and then along with borrowing my mom's "Interview with the Vampire" book and "Dracula" books, I sort of had all these stored up ideas. And so finally when I had the bravery to create something it was a mismatch, a mishmash of pretty much all of writer's first books are, holy smokes, borrowed his hack. It was a mishmash of everything from Sherlock Holmes, Bram Stoker's" Dracula" and Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein." And it was all put together in this Victorian London mystery. And I put it together. And when I finally said, "Oh, I think this is great," I sent it out to the world. And then I got rejection and then yeah, I got two rejections, three, four or five. And the only thing that I think really helped me to get that first book published, which if anyone's listening and you're thinking about publishing a book, your first one is by far the hardest one. The only thing that kept me going was that, you know, I, I, I just knew that if you continue, someone's got to be drunk enough or high enough to put it somewhere, right? So eventually I, I did get that all mighty heavenly choir email from publishing, which since unfortunately his closed up, but said, "Hey, we love it. Let's work with it." And it, they assigned me some editors, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a tough process.

[00:14:02] You have to, have to, have to be ready to take very raw, very straightforward opinions and not be afraid. A lot of people can't do that. And I will, I will say early on, I really did struggle with that nowadays. I, I, I ask people to rip me apart. Publisher Parliament House, I was talking to the editors during a production meeting, and I said, "Please, whoever, whichever editor you signed to. I want it extra ripped apart." I needed it. I need this to be torn apart, but early on, it was very difficult, but you go through that process. It's a year or two process of getting it on the pages and making it fit, right? And then you get out and there's no more special feeling than that first book getting out. Nowadays, I look at that first edition. I think I have an old, you know, dog-eared version somewhere in my office and it is cringe worthy, but, but at the time it was, it was amazing. It was a miracle.

[00:15:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And that is, that is so cool, just that moment of holding it in your hands. I bet after all that hard work and the rejections and all the things, and then you just get to hold it and you're like.

[00:15:15] Justin Alcala: Oh my goodness. Please, please, please. There's no-- it doesn't have to be me, but if you have any anybody you follow that's a writer or whatnot, even the big, the biggest of big dogs, even the, you know, Andrew Smith's and Christopher Moore's, every, every purchase counts. Might just be 15 bucks works for you, but every purchase counts towards things and every review is, is a little bit of saying thank you and I love you to those people for the crazy amount of work that you sometimes have to put in the books and authors love doing it. Don't get me wrong, but it does. It's a nice pat on the back.

[00:15:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that probably goes for all art forms. Anytime that you have a chance. I'll just get on my soap box for a second here. But anytime you have a chance to show an artist, a little love, even it doesn't even like money is obviously very important. So we have all have bills to pay, but even if it's just like, "Hey, I, I see you. I see what you're doing. Good job." Those kinds of things matter so much. I don't know if you're the same way, Justin, but just those kind of little affirmations --it doesn't have to be anything huge, but it makes a big difference for sure.

[00:16:23] Justin Alcala: For sure. Right. And you know, I've, I've kind of to this day, I, I've, you can say grown thick skin to where I don't need the confirmations, but when I get-- I'm not going to lie-- it kind of gives a little, you know, Thumper from "Bambi" look, my eyes get big. And I think it's, yeah. You know, it does feel nice, but yeah, for sure.

[00:16:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I relate to that. I think especially early on in your career, the more encouragement you can get and constructive criticism, I mean, you have to have both, but the more that you can get feedback the better. But then I do agree that, you know, later on as you're an established professional, and you're like, "Well, I, I do kind of understand how to do this" then, but it is still nice every time. I'll just throw that out there. So. Yep. Absolutely. Well, okay. So we're just, we're going to have to, we're going to have to talk about those prohibition tunnels. I just, I can't let that.

[00:17:19] Justin Alcala: It's a itch that must be scratched, huh?

[00:17:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Tell me about this whole thing.

[00:17:26] Justin Alcala: Not a problem. So I grew up in a house where, you know, some spooky, interesting things happen. I, we, we could go on the debate of what it was if it was explainable or not. But the legend behind the house we had like an old school, you know, that guy in the corner, who's, you know, 70, 80, and he's seen it all in this town. You know, there's always a legend that there's tunnels under our house and he would tell us how you'd see gangsters back in the day go in there into our house and then come out the other house with bags. Or there's a golf course across the street from us as well that, that allegedly the tunnels went through too. And they'd see them coming out. But long story short, the rumor is that Al Capone's south side school squad pretty much, they, they financed those houses for the builders and the catch was that when we need to pretty much run booze, you just comply and you get the house for free, right? When you went into our basement, there was all, it's a creepiest, as creepy as it could be the set of a horror film, cobwebs and cement floors and rafters, but on the walls, it was all just solid and blank except for one little section where it was bricked up, and if you went into the house across the street, which a buddy of mine lived there, same exact thing facing each other and everything. If you went down there, you'd feel cold breezes.

[00:18:48] And we never wanted to open it up. So because obviously that would, you know, it could destroy the structure, but later on in life it was very strange. Later on in life though, you know, it was always myth and legend. I was working the corporate world and this manager came in out of nowhere and said, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I, I used to live on the south side of Chicago." Yeah, well, I lived on the south side. We were both working downtown at the moment and we started comparing notes, turns out his great uncle was the guy who helped build those tunnels in between. And he said that they were paid triple. And this was during a time when jobs were really at an all time low. So they had to take the job, but they were sworn to secrecy. And the only time he said anything was on his death bed, that there were tunnels under there. And I was like, "You've gotta be kidding me. I lived in that house!" You know, he was just trying to tell a fun story. And I was like, "No, no, no, that was my house. That was my house." So turns out to this day, it was true, but also a lot of schools, interesting things happen in between sounds and some weird sightings that we just can't explain. And we think it's maybe the builder of the house or the gangsters that are.

[00:20:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my goodness. That story is fantastic. I think I was just sitting here smiling, but with my mouth open the whole time of like, what?

[00:20:12] Justin Alcala: And obviously these have been, you know, helped me inspire some of my some of the horror stories that I've had in anthologies, because you don't grow up for 18 years in a house like that, not tell any of those stories in other ways.

[00:20:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Oh my goodness. That is wow. Well, that is a very unique like background to draw from. So, I mean, obviously it gave you lots of material if that's any.

[00:20:40] Justin Alcala: Oh yeah. So yeah. You know, and to this day, once again, I mean, these days I'm fearless about it, but you know, you can bring it up to some people and they look at you like, "Okay, this guy is not dealing with a full deck here," but it's a, it's true, weird things that happen in our house. But there were definitely some tunnels in between our houses that the south side mafia used during the prohibition to flip, to flip booze, and funny add on to that story: when I was moving out, my father passed away when I was 18 and I decided I wanted to go and do the, you know, the, the head on out and live my own life story. But my friend and I just out of curiosity said, "Dude, let's see if we could break a breakdown in that wall." We did. And there was another brick wall, clay bricks after that, but the installation there was crumpled up newspapers in between and sure enough, they were from the twenties. They were barely faded and you could barely read some of them, but yeah, they were dated from the 20th, et cetera. It was, it was pretty neat. We didn't go any further. We, we chickened out after that though.

[00:21:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word. That is amazing. And also I am so curious. Do you know if anything has ever come of those houses? Like, has anyone decided to be like, "Okay, this is historic. We're going to figure out what actually happened. Is there anything like that?"

[00:21:56] Justin Alcala: So regrettably it's quite the opposite. The house across the street, a lawyer bought it and turned it into a business where he just works out of his house. It was a beautiful house too, across the street and our house, unfortunately it had always had, even growing up, so some mild issues with, with it. And then we had a fire that is a whole 'nother story. I had to jump out of a window of my, in my underwear when I was 17 to survive. But after it was repaired from the fire, it was not repaired correctly and the entire walls and everything from the water damage to the firefighters, molded everything up. And I hear it is unfortunately in ruins now.

[00:22:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, sorry to hear.

[00:22:39] Justin Alcala: Yeah, I know. I know, but no, that's okay. But so I, you know what we should probably do is go in on it and buy it. And then finally go break out that basement and see if there's any money in there.

[00:22:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Huh? Right, right. Or anything. I'm just like, there could be so much. It's killing me a little bit. There could be so much historical, you know, anything there. It's just fantastic. What a story. Oh, my word.

[00:23:06] Justin Alcala: Yeah. When I was a kid, I was afraid and, you know, that I would tell stories about that. That was going to turn to a Goonies episode where there was skeletons and slides with spikes. And, but now, nowadays I'm thinking, "Ah, there's probably just old garbage in there in between. Who knows?"

[00:23:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, probably, but still that's the fun thing, I guess, about being an author is you can create your own ending to it and you don't have to go with what it actually is.

[00:23:32] Justin Alcala: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:23:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that is so fun. Well, I'm curious, I know you're a dad now and congrats on that and I'm.

[00:23:43] Justin Alcala: Thank you so much.

[00:23:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I'm curious how that has informed your work or has it changed? Obviously it's changed your time availability, but has it changed other elements about the way that you produce arts?

[00:23:57] Justin Alcala: Absolutely so, but in a good way. So as far as the schedule goes now, it just means I have to wake up super early. I wake up at 6:00 AM and try to get as much in before I hear the first "Oh, Daddy!"S from my daughter, Lily. But you do have to wake up a little bit earlier, but I think what it's also done is that children are fantastically innocent and they can say these amazingly prolific things to you that is just raw thoughts to them that gets you thinking again, it gets you questioning things, pieces that you might have thought back in the day were overused or just hack as far as stories and ideas. Your kids can really inspire you to do something with them, but it doesn't change your DNA as a writer whatsoever. I mean, I am working on a story right now that will be out 2022, "The Last Stop," which is pretty much a kid's horror book. Think of, you know, the things that probably growing up, you had The Goosebumps, and, and whatnot.

[00:24:52] But in my opinion, and you know, people have scoffed at me before, is like those books for me as a child really helped me out. They were great tools for me. Because if you deny a child, the, the chance to understand that there are things out there that are bad-- you know, there are dark and spooky things out there-- you're also denying them the tools to deal with those things. So for me and my kids, I mean my kids and I, so Halloween spooky stories, it's all fun for them. They are very much acclimated to it. They know scary stories. We do it. We were not The Adams Family about it. We do it in small increments and we have fun with it, but they understand that we do not keep that from them. And it's gone so much as to inspire me to try to go ahead and indulge middle grade writing and see where it takes me as far as writing spooky stories for kids.

[00:25:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I really like that. And I think that you're spot on. I think that sometimes in an effort to want to protect innocence-- and that is noble too-- but in an effort to do so, we sort of veer a little too much on the other side and protect too much instead of giving kiddos an opportunity, especially through stories 'cause what a powerful way too. It's fiction. It's not real. So what a powerful way to share truths about life and get them, you know, to a point where they can learn how to overcome some things that happened that are scary. So, yeah. Kudos to you.

[00:26:27] Justin Alcala: And art. It's so interesting. Because kids get art, you know. Art is creation through aptitudes and inspiration, you know, in order to communicate something wonderful. And you know, and for me, it's using also what's playful, awkward, maybe a little spooky, little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain. And I'll tell you what, kids, I feel like far better than adults, you know, there's a lot of complications that come with adults when it comes to taking in art of any form from painting to writing. It'd be just because you have your, a lot of your own experiences that you filter it through, but kids, they take it, they take the lessons of it. They take the, the metaphors, all of it, and they put it to great use. So, you know, we, I don't think sometimes we give them enough credit when it comes to art and the translation of it, but they're fantastic at it.

[00:27:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And it's such a fun, different perspective when you talk to a, a kid about their experience with art versus an adult. And I think, yeah, well, they just have a more, like you said, kind of filtered view because of things that they've gone through or just their perception and things like that. And kids are just like, "Well, it's a butterfly clearly." Like.

[00:27:41] Justin Alcala: Right. Oh my God. And my daughter, it's funny, you know, she can say the most prolific things to me, you know, about, about "Why did you do that, Lily?" And, well, "My heart told me to, it feels right." And I think that's something that everyone should do. And you hear that you sit and you go, wow. And then her next sentence is, " Let's go get some Cheetos." It's the, it's the best of, it's the yin and the yang of life.

[00:28:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And that's, it kind of sounds like something I would say now though, like.

[00:28:15] Justin Alcala: Right, exactly. Exactly. Right. It's just, it's just a filter.

[00:28:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's awesome. Oh my goodness. Well, this is fantastic. And I know that, you know, a big thing that you're passionate about sharing with people is to embrace your, embrace your inner dork or your nerdy side, or what makes you unique. Do you want to share a little bit about maybe some advice you have for somebody who's afraid to put their work out there because they just don't feel like they go along with the majority or, or what's normal, whatever that means.

[00:28:52] Justin Alcala: Yeah, absolutely. The problem is a lot of times, you know, and, and hopefully my contribution to life someday is, is inviting people to embrace what makes them unique, you know, and I do it through stories obviously, but it's just life in general. You know, we have these unique situations in life, strange characters, and people like to suffocate that within themselves. They like to tell themselves, you know, this is nothing society wants me to act this way. I am supposed to interpret how I feel, not by my own, you know, in the words of my daughter, not by my own heart, but by the way people tell me to do things, and we invest far too much in what people think. I will tell you now, the most liberating thing I ever did was, it was just right. Because I'm nerdy and yeah, weird. And I'm a little strange and I just, I wrote it. I got it out. And let me tell you, at first, when I was writing and suffocating all these ideas, people would tell me my writing was just meh. Stepped up and just let it be free. And, and put myself on the pages. People are like, this is fantastic. I could feel the human element of this. The dialogue is great. I, this is, this seems real to me, it's this tangible, even when I write some of the goofiest of things. And so I would encourage anyone to just, you know, metaphorically walk down the street naked, and I'll tell you what.

[00:30:12] People, people you don't need in your lives, they're going to go away. And so people who stick around after they hear your true voice not only will it be liberating for you, but those are the greatest people that will encourage you to the future. And that's not just writing. Obviously for me, the, the lesson is to do with writing, but that's just life in general be you. And I guarantee you, for me, I was me and it really helped me kick off my writing career, but it also just helped me be a happy person. People who know me, where they know what they're going to get. They're going to get some weird, weird, strange talk from me some ideas on what would happen if we could fly through space, goofy, goofy ideas about everything from consumer Lou to Tony, the tiger. But if they're laughing about it, fantastic, that's what you get with me. But you should do the same. You should just stop being who people want you to be and be yourself. It's very rewarding.

[00:31:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Thank you for that. I love that advice and I agree something that you said kind of stood out to me too. You know, you're talking about the people who don't need to be in your life will leave. And the people who do need to be in your life will, will stay in the, and there'll be supportive. And I think one element to that too, is the more that we are able to liberate ourselves, the more liberating that can be to other people. And so the more that we're willing to be vulnerable in a sense, and put our true selves out there, I think that opens up opportunities for other people to do the same, where they might feel otherwise nervous or scared too. But then in the context of you being willing to be honest and talk about your failures, talk about your successes, talk about the bumps and the good points, I think it makes a big difference for other people.

[00:32:04] Justin Alcala: Absolutely, absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. Once you start seeing other people do it, or once you do it yourself, the other people will inspire you, but and once you start doing it, you will inspire others. And I think it's all very good for the world. We are such a-- I don't want to, I don't want to go on too long-- but we are such a society who just needs approval of others. And I tell you what, that's probably the biggest cancer of my life was when I did do that. And, you know, there are things that dictate it. You know, obviously if you're working a corporate world, you have to have managers' approvals and et cetera. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about letting other people affect your life. And I think hopefully someday, you know, with, with the, if you pick up one of my books, you, you will get that there will be examples left and right tell you to be yourself.

[00:32:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And speaking of that, where can we find your work and follow it and be a part of your journey and, and support you?

[00:33:05] Justin Alcala: Oh, yeah, well, you can go to www.justinalcala.com that sort of has a portal to everything. But I'm on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, anything, anywhere where great books are written and, and sold and currently I am-- October 6th, I believe, Parliament House Publishing and I are working on "A Dead End Job." And that will be out. You can pre-order that. Please do, if you can, it's-- you get a little discount if you do it now, but it's a fantastically weird story. And I think I, I'm really proud of it. I think we've really worked hard, the editors and I, in getting it out for readers.

[00:33:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And I just want to make a quick note and I hope I'm speaking correctly. But pre-orders are really important for book sales. They're really important for the author and for, yeah. So as much as you can support the authors ahead of time and go ahead and pre-order your book, the is just, it, it It helps those books once they are actually published to rank higher on the list and more people can see them. So if you're interested in supporting authors, please do so that way.

[00:34:13] Justin Alcala: The more pre-orders you get, the higher in the rankings and the free advertisements and the recommendations other people receive. So literally people pre-ordering, you know, a lot of people say, "Well, I'll just get it when it comes out," literally pre-ordering is going to an artist, a writer on another tier as far as their sales go and it literally helps them once the book comes out start going shoulder to shoulder with the big dogs, instead of possibly just going with a, you know, as something that is someone's, you know, possible fun fan fiction that they went ahead and published and it's just for fun. And they're, it's more of a good hobby for them. Not to say that's not important, but it, it helps, it helps the artist all the work that they've put into it, go shoulder to shoulder with other people who deserve it.

[00:35:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. Awesome. Okay. Well, this has all been fantastic. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:35:12] Justin Alcala: Sure.

[00:35:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay. Fantastic. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:21] Justin Alcala: Yes, I think I may have said it before that art is creation through the aptitude and inspiration in order to communicate something amazing. And for me, you know, it's using what's playful, awkward, and a little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:35:43] Justin Alcala: The most important part is communicate and inspire. If you have to find a fundamental way to connect to someone through your medium, and once you communicate with them, you inspire them to take what you said and make it their own. And for books, any characters' story, once I get it out in the world, it was no longer my story. It is the reader's story. What they think is far more important about the protagonist /antagonist, the plot than anything that I've dreamed up, it is their world to be inspired and kind of take it into their own lives and contribute.

[00:36:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then my final question, and you sort of maybe touched on your answer for this. So I'll be curious to know where you go with it, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I will define my terms. So by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind that, whether it's program notes or title or something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context. And so it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to decide what they do.

[00:36:53] Justin Alcala: I am 100%-- I'll fight people through the end of the earth-- exclusive. I think that once you create something and get it out to the world, what do you hang up a painting or write a book, it is no longer yours. You don't need to describe it. I think when you do the only thing that you really do-- for me writing, I'm taking the best medium that I have in order to create something for enjoyment. Why would I take something like my clumsy tongue and then try to explain what I've already created for the person to enjoy? It is theirs. It is exclusive to them. And over-explaining, it just really is always a bad idea.

[00:37:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. So do you, so then out of curiosity, as my follow-up question, do you ever personally do like author talks where people can ask you specific questions?

[00:37:47] Justin Alcala: Absolutely. But I always, I always make sure to, to let them know this is just one idiot's opinion. This is, this is just my opinion. And hopefully you could take whatever's in my books and come up with a better answer for it. But I am more than happy to take talks and I, and I've done. So I, I'm probably rubbish at them, but I do do it, but I always warn people that you're probably best just reading the book to get that answer out of me. Sure, of course, I'll always answer.

[00:38:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Very good. Well, Justin, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Your stories are, your stories are fantastic. I can't wait to read your books and just yeah, thank you for just embracing who you are and sharing that with the world. Obviously it's resonated and it's going to continue to resonate. It's going to continue to inspire people who might feel like they can't do that. So thank you for, for leading the way in that. And yeah, this has been so much fun. I really appreciate your time together. Thank you.

[00:38:56] Justin Alcala: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I had a great time.

[00:38:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Good, good. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I highly encourage you to check out Justin's work, pre-order his latest book, help support his artistic journey. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:21] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:31] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In this week's episode, I welcome Aunia Kahn! Aunia is a true jack-of-all-trade artist. She has excelled in many different art forms, from a painter, graphic designer, and website developer, to podcast host, speaker, and writer--with a brief stint as a one-woman band. She shares her artistic journey and lots of sage advice in her delightful episode. (Fun fact: the cover image for this podcast is one of Aunia's original paintings!)

Get in touch with Aunia Kahn: https://auxiliumhaus.com/ | https://auniakahn.com/

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Episode 67 - Aunia Kahn

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Aunia Kahn. She is a creative entrepreneur extraordinaire. I feel like that's maybe a good summary there. So many different things that she has dabbled in and obviously is an expert in, so everything from podcasting to graphic design to writing, I believe, and I would say probably a whole smattering of things in between. So thank you so much for joining us today on your I'm so excited to have you here.

[00:02:53] Aunia Kahn: Thank you. And yes, I do.

[00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay, good. I thought so. All right. Well, I would love if you would just share with us a little bit about your background, kind of maybe how you got started, if you're okay with that.

[00:03:06] Aunia Kahn: Yeah, totally. So I kind of came into art in a very strange way. A lot of people come into art because that's what they just want to do. And I didn't come on to art that way. I grew up in a family where I wasn't really supported artistically and I was really encouraged to do like, quote unquote, normal job. And so that's the direction that I went with. My life is studying psychology and other things completely outside of art, but I had always been somebody who just loved art and enjoyed it, but never thought it could be a career. And then I got really sick around the age of 19 and started to have some pretty extensive health crisises, crisis's crazy. Anyway, it's a weird word. Health, health concerns, health issues. And I ended up turning to art as a way to work through those challenges. And because I was always a really driven individual, I've always been very goal oriented and like check off the boxes kind of person in my life that in doing so I felt like I needed to do something with it, not just make the art, but maybe do something with it.

[00:04:27] And one day I was out of my house, which I didn't go out very much. I mean, I was very housebound. I went out to this little park and it was this art thing for kids, and I was there and I was at a little table and I was doing some watercolor pencils. And some gentleman walked up to me and said, "Can I take a picture of you?" And I was like, "Mm. Yeah, no, like who are you?" And he said, "Well, I'm a local, you know, photographer for the local newspaper and we're doing a little thing." And we ended up talking, becoming friends and down the road, he is the person that talked me into first exhibiting my art and putting it out there publicly. And that's how it all started. I started to submit to exhibitions. I started to win awards. I started to get into ,shows but that's kind of how I got started in the world of exhibiting art.

[00:05:25] Graphic and web design I was doing prior to 'cause I was really interested in music and doing music covers and websites well before the art stuff, just for fun. But that's kind of how I got into art and how I got kind of pushed into a place that I really didn't think that could ever support me or that I'd ever be good at, or I'd ever really have success. I just, I was like, oh, okay. This is kind of weird, but I felt connected, Lindsey. I felt really connected with people because I would put my artwork and shows and I would have people make really intense reactions to the work because the work back then was a lot more dark. It had a lot to do with childhood trauma and other really difficult situations. So it was hard for me to even put that stuff on a wall, let alone deal with people's reactions to my work from a distance, but I realized that it was cathartic.

[00:06:23] And since I'd always been somebody who is interested in psychology, I kind of learned that I couldn't be a therapist because of my illness and because I'm too empathetic, but in a way I'm inadvertently helping people by working with trauma and challenging situations through my art, where other people can relate to them and be able to work through it on their own as well. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. And of course it goes on from there, but that's, that's the nutshell over the last 15 years.

[00:06:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So, well, I love the nutshell. That definitely that is so cool. It encapsulates so many different experiences and wow, what an amazing story to go from this like random chance encounter to then that's what kind of sparked your, your creative journey to a different level. Like you said, you were already a graphic designer and so you had that artistic bent, but then too, Oh, my word. Just take it and run through meeting this stranger who asks you this awkward question? I really love that story.

[00:07:32] Aunia Kahn: And I was just going to say it was the same with the graphic design element. I ended up having a friend who had an extra computer and he was just like, "do you, do you want it? It has Photoshop and all this stuff on it. And I know you were interested in web stuff for the band that you were doing." And I said, "yes." And now we're 15 years later and I'm, I do web design, websites and graphic stuff and all that kind of stuff, you know, for a living alongside my art. So two chance encounters, really two, two very different situations and two very different people who I've definitely let them know, like, "thank you." I wouldn't be here today without you, kind of changed my life.

[00:08:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Sometimes I think it only takes, you know, one person, whether it's a chance encounter or someone you happen to know or whatever, but they just say the right thing at the right moment. And then it like launches something you, you wouldn't have ever expected. I mean, I've had that experience too. It's special. It's, it's-- you never know when you're going to be that person to somebody else too. So always, you know, pointing people in an encouraging direction, and I'm going off on a tangent here. I'm just recognizing the fact that sometimes those individuals don't realize how much of a difference they're making in the moment. So, yeah, I think it's cool that you go back in and say thanks.

[00:08:51] Aunia Kahn: Yeah. People don't know. I mean, how many times has people's lives been changed by one person and that one person doesn't ever have any clue.

[00:08:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So you had mentioned graphic design and website design, but then you had sort of snuck in this thing about having a band. What was that?

[00:09:11] Aunia Kahn: I don't anymore. This was, this was a long time ago. I did, I did music. I had my own, like a project that was the best way that I could explain it for like the layman, is I was kind of like a female Nine Inch. So I did all the percussion. I did all of the vocals. I did all the mastering of the tracks. I did all the work. I am not at all successful like Nine Inch Nails. So I'm not comparing it like that, like I was amazing. Just kind of like the similar, how, you know, music is constructed. I really didn't have other people with me. It was really just my own thing. And I also ran a small record label along with it, with other bands in the same genre. So it was Gothic industrial synth pop kind of music. Had to quit that because of my illness, unfortunately, but that's kind of where I started to, you know, create album covers and all that. That's kind of where it started. So it was a lot of fun and I miss it. I really do. I've been thinking about revisiting that part of my creativity again, but I haven't sure.

[00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, how fun. Well, and I know you also are a podcast host. I'd love to hear about what, what is your podcast about and all of that.

[00:10:23] Aunia Kahn: Sure. So I do two different podcasts. I have one called the Auxilium House podcast, which is my graphic and web design business. So I give businesses tips and tricks about web design, marketing cause I do a lot of marketing and branding as well. So I run that and then, and that's just kind of like here and there. And then I've had the Creighton Inspire podcast since 2013, 14-- I think 14 and that's been kind of an on and off thing where it's just really about helping artists, giving, giving them ideas about, you know, same thing, kind of like crossover-- marketing, websites how to navigate social media, how to deal with challenging times, how to get into art galleries. Just basically like how to, and then it's kinda coupled like with my blog now where I have blogs and I have videos that I do on YouTube with like the same content. So I'm doing the podcast from time to time, probably like once or twice a month, videos about once a week. And so there's probably like two or three blogs being posted a month with information with, like I said, tutorials, helpful information to really just help inspire artists, and then also dealing with artists in the challenging aspects of a career, feeling really bad about yourself, you know, feeling challenged by other artists that are better than you, feeling like you're worthless.

[00:11:50] I mean, there's just so many things that artists go through because art is such intrinsic-- what's the other word I want to say like, oh, just like deep experience for a lot of people, you know, when people are creating things, whether it's music, art, Anything that they're creating. I mean, you could just be like, you know, I don't know, remodeling a car when you put your energy into something that you're creating. There's a lot of soul that goes into it. And there's a lot of feeling of uncomfortability. Is there going to be social validation? Am I going to be supported? Are people going to make fun of me? So I really try to help artists work through that.

[00:12:25] Lindsey Dinneen: I, I love that. And that is so important because I think that happens so often where it's not just the actual work that you're creating. It's all of the mental work that goes into it as well. And it is, it's an undertaking and it is something where, you know, you, you, you put your best out there and you hope that it's good. You hope that it resonates with someone and a lot of it is just like, well, we'll see. So learning to be comfortable with that is is challenging, but can be really, really cool too, to see the end result of that. So, yeah. That's great that you do that. I love that. Your podcasts sound fantastic. Yeah. I'm super excited to check them out.

[00:13:09] Aunia Kahn: Thanks.

[00:13:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And so then, okay. So I guess what all keeps you busy these days? Cause I obviously feel like you're so multi-talented, so what are all the different things that you're, that you're doing like regularly today?

[00:13:27] Aunia Kahn: Oh, boy.

[00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I know.

[00:13:30] Aunia Kahn: There's, there's, you know, it's one of those things I think, I think there's just different types of creators and I'm just somebody who just really has a hard time not doing things. And being kind of still, I think partially because I lost so many years with my illness, that I'm still trying to catch up with time and I'm also fast anyway. So I've always, and I'm always doing something. Like I like, I like to expand. And I, I think the biggest thing that I'm doing right now is challenging myself to not be in a box because over the last 15 years, I've had a career as an artist that does a specific type of art. And people know me for that art. They just do. That's my name is connected with that and, and I want to bring up my illness cause this is really challenged and change those last few months for me is, over the last couple of years, I finally got a diagnosis after almost 20 years. And I finally got medication, which has helped support my system, and I'm allergic to everything. So that's what my disease is. I'm basically like allergic to things like most foods, even water at times.

[00:14:39] So it has meant for me as an artist that I couldn't touch physical mediums, so I couldn't paint. I had to do everything digitally. I couldn't work in colored pencil because I could have a life-threatening allergic reaction touching something. So over the last numerous years of my career, since 2005, I have primarily been a digital artist. I could deal with graphite from time to time. So I did do that. But other than that, I haven't been able to, and with the pandemic happening in May of last year, not this year. So we're coming up on a year anniversary of this. I was able to work in color pencil for the first time and I didn't have any reaction. And then I slowly in November moved into watercolor. And so I'm exploring all of these new mediums. I have some projects as well, but I'm exploring new mediums and they're not as refined as my other work. And it's very scary to put it out there and know that people are going to hate and they're going to judge it because like anything, when we are used to it.

[00:15:40] I mean, think of bands, Lindsey, like, oh yeah, this band, we know it for this music. And then if they change their style, people are like, "This is stupid. I hate it. This is not what I'm used to." And I understand that we enjoy the feeling of knowing what we're going to get from somebody, because that's why we followed them, right? Like we know the kind of music they're going to. If a band is playing metal music, and then all of a sudden they become country singers, it's like, well, that's not my kind of music I like. I mean, you know, but I, but I want to encourage that that's great. Like do what you want to do. Like, I think it's amazing when bands and artists shift themselves completely, I think it's, it's prolific, but for me as a person who's done it, it's been very hard. I, I kind of knew who I was. I knew where I stood. I kind of understood my career. And now I'm like, "Who am I? I don't know who I am," you know, putting out art that's completely different.

[00:16:33] So one of the ways to remedy this was to create a project called the Portrait Project, which I know is just a general name, but I didn't have anything special. And the idea is people were able to submit pictures of themselves to me. And I was going to randomly pick people through this pool to paint them so that I could master --not really master, cause I don't believe anybody's a master-- but get better, improve in the mediums that I'm working in using realistic faces of people who perhaps couldn't pay me for our commission or maybe wouldn't have had the opportunity to, to be in an, a piece of artwork. So we're talking, you know, different sexes, different races, different ages. So I'm using all people of the world. And this gives me the ability to grow and all artwork once completed is donated to the subject and they have an opportunity to pay me with a donation or if they are unable to do so they don't have. But they can, or people who are not a part of the project can donate to the project. And I also have an Amazon wishlist that has products like tape and, you know, paper and things that I use to ship the artwork. So that's one of the ways that I'm, I'm remedy, remedying it by creating a community connection. I'm healing and I want the community to be a part of it. So that's the real big focus and project that I'm currently working in.

[00:17:59] And then I'm working on commissions on a regular basis. I'm doing some book covers. I'm obviously have graphic and web design clients that I work with on a regular basis that are primarily in numerous industries. So I, you know, have had people in HR and I have artists and I have all these wonderful clients that I'm working with. I'm working on a bird book. So I love birds and I started to paint birds in these mediums. And so I'm creating a bird book with these really cool stories about each of them birds. There's probably like 20 different things that are going, but I think those are the biggest things that are happening. And then of course my exhibition schedule, working with different galleries that I work with yearly for different shows. And podcasting and popping on podcasts and writing blogs and doing videos and just doing the thing.

[00:18:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Just doing lots of things. Do you sleep?

[00:18:56] Aunia Kahn: No. And then people often ask, do I drink coffee or do drugs? And neither, like, I can't do anything. Like, you know, like I'm allergic to everything. I just, I run on, I run on passion for life, really. Like, I'm glad to be here. I think that's why I have so much energy because I didn't think I was going to make it here and to this part of my life. I really didn't. And I'm, I'm glad to be alive. And so I think that there there's just a lot of passion behind that. Like I saw, I have gray hair now, like a good streak in my hair. Good witchy streak on both sides of my temples. And most people would be like, "ew yeah." And I'm like, I love it. I'm alive, I'm here. And so that's where the energy comes from. Just the passion of losing a large chunk of my life, but also just, I'm really glad to be alive.

[00:19:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, thank you for sharing that story because that's incredibly powerful and it is so interesting to hear how you've adapted and just, you know, gone with what you did have. And, and it sounds-- I don't mean to diminish anything that you've been through, but I, I also commend you for, for looking for the positive and looking for what you can do. I think that's would be a very challenging thing to do when you feel like you've lost a lot. And so I think it's so amazing what you're producing and just, you know, your, your passion, your energy, your drive for life, and then what you've been able to do as a result of, of that, and bring a very unique viewpoint to the world. So, man, kudos to you. My word!

[00:20:30] Aunia Kahn: I appreciate that. I think that's one of the things I love to encourage in other people is finding what you can do. It's hard-- I mean, especially now with the pandemic, it's hard for us not to, you know, think about, "oh, I can't do that. I can't do that." And when we realized the things that we can do, it really does help lift our spirits. I think it's an important refrain for almost anybody who's dealing with anything challenging. It's like, what, what can you do? I mean, I did that when I became allergic to all of my jewelry. Like I couldn't wear any of my jewelry anymore because I'm a highly allergic to metals. And I used to just look at my jewelry and I used to be somebody who wore rings on every finger. I mean, I was just very much into jewelry. I remember the day that I was like, I can't do this. I can't look at it anymore. It just reminds me of the can'ts. So I put it all away. And then I remember going online and finding acrylic jewelry and beaded jewelry and doing all that. And it really just shifted that feeling. And so I'd love to encourage other people because everybody's going through something right now, everybody who's listening I'm sure is, has gone through something or is going through something and just kind of, it's not always that feeling of-- people say, "oh, find the good in it." It's like, sometimes you can't find the good in it sometimes really you can't, you need to sit with those feelings, but what can you do? What, what can you do to adapt to the current situation?

[00:21:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective. Thank you for sharing that. I think that is just so inspiring, but so incredibly important and you're right. People can relate to that and, and I, I've been more recently sort of tuned into the whole, you know, it's okay to sit with those feelings. I think for a long time, I sort of had a, oh, you know, just trying to find the bright side. And sometimes, like you said, there's not a bright side or it's not immediately known, you know? And so it's hard if you don't let yourself just process, like, yes, this is, this is not fun. This is not ideal. But what can I do? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So, okay. Well, good gravy. You are amazing and inspiring and I-- no, I mean it, I, I, you know, and I think especially your idea of the, you talked about sort of switching gears and, and going to this, this new way of doing art and, and, and so also kudos to you for being brave, because I also know what that's like is when you've like kind of established who you are and then you veer in a different direction. And sometimes people don't like it, but being true to yourself is really important. So kudos to you for that. So this community project is, do you-- is part of it that you are putting your finished artwork in some kind of a, I know you said you, you'll give it to the subject themselves. But do you also, is this like a gallery project that you've been working on or putting it towards like a portfolio, or is there like a public facing version of this?

[00:23:34] Aunia Kahn: You know, the one thing that I was thinking about doing, because doing, I thought about doing a gallery show, but since the final products aren't currently with me, I mean, I could do digital versions, but one of the things I definitely wanted to focus on is to create a book about it. And to put these portraits of these different people. Of course, some of them have different stories. So I mean, not everybody does, right? Like, or maybe nobody, or maybe some of the people don't want to share their story. But sometimes I have in random picked people who have had stories, like I had a submission where one of the people lost their sister and I actually didn't understand that the person had passed away. I actually thought it was a submission of herself because there was no information and she was randomly chosen and come to find out she had passed away, I believe in 2019, by falling asleep at the wheel of a car. And so when I posted that portrait, we tried to focus on the advocacy aspects of it.

[00:24:36] So that's one of the things I'm really trying to focus on and trying to figure out, like how can I incorporate that into a book or into something in the end that people can acquire, but also recognize that, you know, some people's stories don't want to be told, but maybe their faces are important like for us to look at that person, recognize that there are human beings. They're a part of our world and you know, maybe their story is their story, but other people have stories that are, that are public. So that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm not sure about, I'm always have something that, you know, I want to do like big, like no, do something huge, but I also want to make sure that there's a lot of integrity to it. And that there's a lot of, like, it's not about fanning who I am or, or promotion of myself. It's really for me to like heal and connect. So how can I do that? How could I offer something to the community where it is affordable or, you know, those, all those kinds of things that you, you think about in that aspect? Cause it's just different, you know, it's a different kind of situation and it humbles me. It really humbles me to meet so many different people across the world and all different walks of life.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really powerful. So I know before we started recording, you had mentioned also having opportunities to speak at colleges and universities. So I'm guessing that being a public speaker is part of your repertoire of extensive skills. So I'd love to hear more about that.

[00:26:11] Aunia Kahn: Oh, for sure. I absolutely adore public speaking and in the same breath, I absolutely hate it because everybody does. I don't care if you're good at it or not. There is this level of fear that comes with it. " Am I going to mess up, you know, am I going to stumble over my words? Do I have, you know, a fly on my head?" I don't know that that feeling of strangeness to it. And it's the biggest fear. Like people would, people would rather die. Like there's like psychology that says people would rather die than public speak. Like that's how big the fear is for public speaking. So I thought I'd share that if anybody thinks about it and has nervous nervousness around it, I absolutely love going out and doing it. And I talk about various different topic matters, which is a lot of fun. So over the years I have done things like at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, where I have been a part of their mental health outreach project. So creating art and speaking on a panel there. I do things to encourage artists. So, you know, do community support like in Eugene, Oregon, working with Lane Arts Council, where I've been on panels as well. I have gone to numerous places to talk about my background in challenging things in my, in my younger years like bullying and challenging upbringing. So I've talked in various psychology classes, like abnormal psychology and general psychology classes about those kinds of things and, you know, discussing bullying and what it does to people and, and discussing what childhood trauma can do and how it actually affects your immune system. So, those kinds of things.

[00:27:55] And then of course, like mentorship. So I'm working on a local mentorship right now with Lane Arts Council, where I'm working with high school students and we're doing projects in graphic design to see if they might be interested in doing that for future. So that's really fun. So it's just, it's really I think the, the overall arching aspect of what I like to do is really just inspire people and help them to work through challenges or work through kind of where they want to go with it. I think that's really just what I love doing and I wish I could do it more. Of course COVID has changed that for me, but also has brought different opportunities with Zoom, especially since it is hard for me with my disease to go places. Prior to COVID, it was very challenging, but I would, I would push myself because I really loved it so much. It's just something, it's just something that feels really natural to me. And I think the feedback that I get afterwards always feels like it gives me confirmation that I'm in the right space. And I think that's kind of where I, I sit with it, but it's always about inspiration of some sort and I like to talk. So that's the other thing. I just do. Ever since I was little it's like my, my report cards used to say she's an A student, but she won't shut up. Stop talking to her. Then the kids next to her, I'm like, I'm just helping them with their homework. Stop it. Oh.

[00:29:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. It's fantastic.

[00:29:24] Aunia Kahn: It's inbred. It's inbred in me.

[00:29:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. No, that is wonderful. I love that. Well, I'm sure that you have moments that kind of stick out in your memory, but I always love to hear about, you know, things that just really made an impact on you, whether you were viewing or participating in someone else's art or whether you watched them witness something of yours, but just this like thing that you go, man, I have to tuck this away because this is important. This is something to remember about this encounter with art.

[00:29:57] Aunia Kahn: I think, I think encounters with art for me, I, it really, you know, I think because I've, I was a gallerist. At one point I ran a gallery and also being an artist myself, where I've shown in museums and galleries and things like that, where I've been in the professional aspects of art. The one thing that always sticks to me is when somebody says to me like, "who's your favorite artist?" I think we always kind of want to go to these specific people. And I always say "children" because they're just not-- they don't have any reservation about their creativity. They just do the thing. And obviously being a gallerist for a period of time, it was important for me to judge artwork that was high quality that would keep my business open that I could sell. I would always integrate other people into it though, that I knew that couldn't, or didn't have opportunities, marginalized groups of people I would always invite that are people who've never shown or whatever. But the reason I bring that up is I think really the experience of art for me is just being able to be open and non-judgmental.

[00:31:04] Like there's so many people that are like, "that's ugly" or "you, you don't know how to draw this," or there's so much hate around what's good and what's bad art. And I understand that there's a professional aspect of it where we can judge it on its merit. We can judge it on its quality. But I also feel from a guttural experience where I'm not somebody who ever came into this because I wanted to be where I am today. I was not like, I'm going to be an artist. You know, I'm going to have 350,000 people follow me on Facebook and I'm going to be amazing. Like, no, like that's not at all why I did it. I did it because I needed to survive. I did it because it felt good to. And that was even when I was a kid, I did it as a survival technique. Creativity was this way for me to stay connected, to stay grounded, to stay healthy, to work through challenges. And I really feel that art is like that and that we need to lose judgment of it.

[00:31:59] And you can roll your eyes at, you know, Rothko and go "that's not art," but really, I know people who've cried in front of a Rothko. And if people don't know what Rothko is, it's just, go look it up. I'm not going to explain it. And you'll understand what I'm saying. It's, it's just really simple. And people are like, "oh, that's not art." It's like, art is art. Art is a form of creativity. It doesn't matter what it is. I don't care if you're sewing buttons on shirts. I don't, I don't care what you're doing, if you're gardening. The idea of creating something or doing something with our hands, the idea of being a maker, the idea of all of that is just, I just feel like it's so-- and I have a hard time with judgment and I'm really big about like, let's not judge, let's just be, let's just enjoy, let people, let people do what they want to do. Like why do we always have to be so judgmental? You know, I get it in the industry. There's a reason to be judgmental because there is a professionalism in certain aspects of showing in a gallery. I get that galleries can't just go, "well, we're just going to show whoever, because we're not going to get our bills paid then."

[00:33:04] But overall the general aspect of creativity, the general aspect of human, the human condition to create from, you know, centuries ago is just a soul. And that's the thing I always try to remember in every aspect. And that's why I'm able to kind of like move into some other thing, because it's like, I don't want to just be known for one thing, because that makes me feel good about myself. I was like, no, I want to be known for somebody who's willing to take risks, who's willing to try and actually almost destroy my career because I'm willing to be vulnerable and actually show my face. You know, I do that a lot on my Facebook page where I show things I totally screwed up because I want people to not see a curated version of me. I want us to realize we're all human and creativity is his soul. And so I'm preaching, but it's so important to me. Like it's so important for me to nurture that. And, and everybody that I know.

[00:34:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I love that. And yes, I think you went into professor mode and I adore it. No, that was perfect and so inspirational. And, fully, fully agree with you. And I love how you kind of, you know-- I think this is an important distinction-- I love the way that you, you talked about it in that, you know, art can be so many different things. There's so many different people and it doesn't have to be judged. I mean, it's just, there's a place, there's a lot of place for that. And there is a place when you're paying bills based off of the art where, you know, a certain level of professionalism needs to come into play, but I like the fact that you separated them and they're both valid. I think that's such an important thing is, you know, sometimes we talk about how, "oh, you can't call yourself an artist unless you've sold your work" or something like that. And it's like, "well, no, you know, you are an artist." I think humans are inherently creative and it just depends on the outlet you choose to express that.

[00:35:06] Aunia Kahn: Absolutely.

[00:35:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And you kind of already answered my first question, but I'll let you elaborate it anyway just in case that you want to add to it, because a lot of what you had just said was sort of answering it, but do you mind if I ask you a couple of my favorite questions?

[00:35:23] Aunia Kahn: Yeah, of course.

[00:35:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:35:24] Aunia Kahn: I told you I like to talk!

[00:35:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Very true. Okay. So, and again, you can choose to elaborate it or just say, you know what, I think I've covered it, but the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:38] Aunia Kahn: I love it. So, you know, art, art is whatever it wants to be. And I, I'm really in love with all aspects of creativity. There's so many things that I'm sure that even people that are listening to that don't recognize as art or things that are going on that people aren't seeing, performance art being one of them, the collage community. I mean, there's just so many different types of art and it can be whatever it can be, whatever it wants to be, whatever you want to call art. If I want to put a, a rock on my desk and put a little hair clip on top of it, and I want to call it a sculpture, like, that's what I feel art is. I feel art is really anything you want it to be and anybody can be outside and go, yeah, that's a hair clip in a rock. Like that's not art, you know? And that's fine. Like, that's fine. But what we feel is it, how, how are we expressing ourselves? And if that makes me feel something, it's putting that hair clip on that rock does something for me, that's all that it really matters because art is really not about the viewer. It's more about the person doing it. Now, I know there's plenty of people who create art as you know for social justice and political reasons. Like I get that, like, it is more for the viewer. Like I get it. And maybe the people are doing it or having a really great experience around it as well.

[00:37:04] But when I think of art, I think about the core aspects of how is the person creating it, feeling about it? What are they getting from it? And that is really all that should matter to an artist. First of course, there could be other layers, like an onion on top of it, of how they want to take that out into the world. And if they want to take it out into the world, because there's a lot of people out there who are doing art that nobody even knows exists. Like my partner is also a gallery artist. And over the last year, he's decided he's not doing public art anymore. He's-- not public art, like, you know, public art in public places, but putting his art into galleries. And he has been doing a really private study of his own work and totally changed his style as well. And there's plenty of artists out there that we'll never see, we'll never get to experience, but it's all about the experience for ourselves while we're creating the work.

[00:38:00] Even if we're creating it just for commerce. And that's fine too. If you want to be an artist and you want to create it for commerce and you know what people like, and you know how to sell it, good for you. You know your reason behind it, it doesn't make it any less art than somebody who's creating something for galleries or creating something, you know, just for themselves or maybe even for their parent or their best friend. So that's kind of what art is to me, the experience of creating something. What it does, how, how we experience it, and then the decision of how we're going to take that further if we want to take it further.

[00:38:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that definition. Perfect. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:38:45] Aunia Kahn: The most important role of an artist is to not worry about what everybody thinks. The most important role of an artist is to do what they want to do in, in themselves, what feels right for them and to not cater to anybody else. Unless of course they're catering for a reason, like I said you know, a minute ago, like, you know, I want to sell my work and I know this kind of stuff sells, and this is what I'm creating, because I know I can make a dollar and pay my bills. That's great. You know, but I-- the role of an artist is to be who they want to-- I think the role of anybody, I think the role of an artist is the role of anybody, really, to be who you want to be without explaining yourself. Of course, unless you're harming people, that's a whole other thing, but, you know, be who you want to be, express how you want to express, live how you want to live, without the expectations and pressures of society and other people. That's how I feel artists and people not should-- cause I don't like the word should-- but would benefit in living life, being free, free of, free of all of that, to just be what you want to be, do what you want to do. Say what you want to say.

[00:40:02] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. That's so important. That's absolutely so important. Okay.

[00:40:08] Aunia Kahn: Yeah. You know, we're pack animals. When we get rejected, there is a, there a, a visceral deep primal feeling that we're going to die. You know, when we are not accepted by the group and people feel bad, you know, feel bad about that. Like, oh, well I feel rejected. I shouldn't feel this way. It's like, no, there's actually a primal reason that we stay in packs or we stay in groups or we need community. So it's really hard for people to step against that, push against that and being willing to risk being rejected. Cause there's a lot more, there's a lot, it's a lot deeper than people believe it to be, right?

[00:40:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I think that, that, that's nice to think about because it allows you to give yourself some grace too, when you're like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. Well, there's a very natural reason you feel this way and that's okay. And you know, we can also choose to move beyond it, but it is okay. Yeah. Okay. And my third question, my final question is, and I'll kind of define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes or a title, or the inspiration, just something to give people a little bit of background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left solely up to the viewer to decide what they will.

[00:41:40] Aunia Kahn: I think that's a really great question. I really do. I think that-- kind of backing onto what I said, I think it's whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like it's just like, whatever the artist wants to do. And however they want it to be. I mean, there's so many artists out there who will put stuff out there and people are like, "what does that mean?" And they're like, "I don't know. You tell me what it means. Like it's not for me to tell you." And then there's other artists out there who are willing to write elaborate stories about why they created a piece. And I think it's really left to the artists to decide how they want to present that because really in a world of putting art out there, it doesn't matter if you put context behind it or you do not put context behind it. People are going to digest that work in their own way. We look through life in our own lens, from our own experiences, our own cultural biases are, how our family structure is, where we live. All of these things give us a lens to view things through and doesn't matter if somebody puts context to something or not. The people who are going to consume it are going to consume it the way they're going to consume it. So there's almost no way to really guarantee it by putting context to something that it's going to land the way that you want it to. So it's, I think it's just being open as an artist to go, like, "do I want to add context and do I not want to add context, but I have to understand if I don't add context that people can feel into it and pretty much add anything to it." But on the other side, if I do add context, the same thing's going to happen. You know, it's the same thing. People are going to judge it. So I think it's really up to them.

[00:43:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Great. I agree. I love that answer. Well, my goodness, you are so incredibly inspiring and I just love hearing your stories and, and just all the wonderful things that you bring to the world. I think the way that you have chosen to produce art, the way that you've chosen to live your life and to bring this beauty and inspiration to the world is just fantastic. And I feel like I'm just kind of repeating myself cause I'm really inspired.

[00:43:54] Aunia Kahn: I love that, though. That's really sweet and I feel the same about you. I feel, you know, that your questions and, and the way that you conduct what you do is very genuine and inspiring as well. It's, it's very helpful. And I think a lot of people get value from what you do.

[00:44:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, and I know there are going to be lots of our listeners who are super interested in what you do. And I'm curious if there's a way that they can connect with you, either through websites, social media, whatever you're comfortable sharing. I know that we'd love to follow your journey, maybe listen to your podcast.

[00:44:29] Aunia Kahn: Great. So you can find me with my art on auniakahn.com, A U N I A K H A N.com. I am on all social media, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, I'm very active there with the people that I engage with. I love engaging with my followers and supporters. If you guys are interested in my graphic design work, it's Auxilium. A U X I L I U M house spelled in German, H A U S.com. And that's pretty much, you can find me anywhere just by putting my name in.

[00:45:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. Well, again, of course thank you so very much for being here. I really appreciate your time today and just excited to share your artwork and your love and passion for life with the world. So thank you so much for that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:45:39] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:45:49] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

View Details

In today's episode, I welcome Phillip Andrew Bennett Low! Phil is a writer, storyteller, and playwright, who actively participates in Fringe Festivals across the United States. He shares stories from his artistic journey, including sage advice for those who don't feel ready to dive in, along with memories that really stand out to him as moments that matter. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Phil!)

Get in touch with Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: https://www.maximumverbosityonline.org/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 66 - Phillip Andrew Bennett Low

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, a fellow Fringe Festival producer. I'm always so thrilled to meet and chat with fellow Fringe producers, because there's just such this cool community and comradery. And I just, I'm so thrilled that you're here. So today I have Phillip Andrew Bennett Low as my guest. He is a writer, storyteller and playwright. And thank you so much for joining me, Phil. I'm so excited to have you here.

[00:02:48] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Hey, thanks so much for having me.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I would love it. If you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in your artistic pursuits and go from there.

[00:03:01] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, sure, absolutely. I'm, I'm one of those guys in show business who's done a little bit of everything at some point or another, but I'm probably best known as a storyteller, as one of those guys who tours the Fringe circuit and does one- man shows. I've been doing this for a pretty long time. I'm, I was one of those kids, I was one of those kids who sort of knew he wanted to be a writer right away. I didn't have the, the soul seeking, hand ringing angst about that, that a lot of people in our generation did, but the form of that has changed a lot. And frequently over the years, but I always sort of knew I wanted to put words together in front of an audience.

[00:03:45] And then as a teenager, I fell into the world of community theater and I was one of the people who wasn't smart enough to quit. So I just, you know, kept going and going and and yeah, eventually I ended up on the Fringe circuit. I was writing plays for a while. I fell backwards into doing a storytelling show, which took off and then I did more. And then I toured and you know, I, I wish I had some sort of like, you know, conversion story, some like Damascian revelation where like I hated art, and then one day I, I, I learned that it was great. I've been a convert from early on.

[00:04:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. I love it. Well, okay. So, so many questions popped into my mind immediately when you're just doing the intro. So I love it. The first thing is, can you explain the difference to our audience that might not know actually, including myself, kind of how you differentiate between sort of a one- man show versus a storytelling show? Is it-- because they're kind of separate, it sounded like the way that you were describing it and I may have misinterpreted, but.

[00:04:51] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I I can not answer that question without making a lot of people angry, but I'm game to give it a try anyway.

[00:04:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Great.

[00:05:00] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: That storytelling is one of those disciplines where people are very protective of the definitions that they form of it. I favor a very broad one. I sort of feel like if you walk onto a stage by yourself and use words to tell a story, I'm comfortable calling you a storyteller. And I get that that encompasses some standup comics and slam poets. And I'm totally okay with that. I'm, I'm happy with that door being wide open, but yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot of different ways to draw circles around that. I mean, people who do monologues as a specific character. There's people who jump out and act out a bunch of different characters. There's the people who tell a story in a more traditional way from sort of a third- person omniscient point of view. And I am, I am just wholly uninterested in building walls up between those things and creating a definition that's going to block people out of it. I think if you call yourself a storyteller, and if your audience would call you a storyteller, I am, I am perfectly comfortable with that being flung towards anyone who finds it useful.

[00:06:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's helpful. Cause it's, it's just, you know, one of those, one of those things-- not being a theater person, super appreciative, love it, but not being in that genre myself-- I've noticed that, you know, it there often is it sort of a distinction, like storytellers talk about being a storyteller and this is a storytelling show or whatever, versus like I'm doing a one man production and it's, and it almost seems like they're two separate things, right? Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. Thanks. I like, I like it. I like the idea of it being more inclusive of a more broad range of people.

[00:06:47] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah. You've, you've, you've mentioned you have a dance background, right?

[00:06:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:06:51] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So you're, you're, you're perfectly familiar with people getting sort of weirdly dogmatic about where to, where to build those barriers and definitions over what they do.

[00:07:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. I think the safest thing is probably to label yourself as a dancer, but, you know, so that you don't get into too many of the genre wars, but yeah. Yeah, and then, okay, so you mentioned doing Fringe quite a bit. How did you first learn about Fringe as a, as an organization, as a whole and what made you dive in?

[00:07:25] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh man. It's, it's a sad story. I was, you know, I was one of those, those guys where I was just writing plays and writing plays and just blind submitting them to theater after theater, you know, going through the drama, the source book with a red pen and, you know, building up a big stack of rejection letters. And I, it was back in the days when news groups were a thing. You know, for the young ins listening, that's like Reddit before there was Reddit, but it was me just throwing out this pleading, "I'm writing all this stuff and I just want to get it in front of an audience. How can I do it?" And someone responding, "Well, there's this thing called the Fringe." And you know, me doing lots of Google because Google was a thing. And yeah, and me just sort of diving into and falling down that rabbit hole. The 2004 Minnesota Fringe was my first Fringe Festival.

[00:08:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay, perfect. And then are, is this something that you do on a more full-time basis as, you know, they do the Fringe circuit or is this like a seasonal kind of thing for you to do Fringe Festivals? And I know everything looks a little different these days, but let's say, back in the day when it was in person in the, in the before times.

[00:08:40] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yes, I was one of those guys doing the circuit, although that's slowed down recently .I'm a stay at home dad. So traveling has new challenges reached in that for me, but I definitely still try to get out to a couple of festivals a year when those festivals happen. Although now I'm, I'm streaming to a bunch of different festivals. So in a way that door's weirdly half open again. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I am totally a circuit guy. If I could afford to live on the circuit full-time I 100%.

[00:09:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I've met a few of those people who do it literally full-time, although I'd have to catch up with them now, but it's just so amazing to me. They'll just live out of this cool camper like thing and just travel around and Fringe, Fringe Festival it up. So that's fun. Well, very cool. Well, okay. So you've mentioned being a dad. What, how has that informed your work? Has that changed anything about the way that you create?

[00:09:39] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I have a lot less time for it. It's definitely-- I dunno. I think I, I think it's made me a lot more efficient. I have a lot less time to work, but I also, I waste a lot less time than I used to. When I have time, I use it. And yeah, I've definitely had to get used to having a toddler running under foot while I'm rehearsing for things. He's grown used to it. There was one time I was doing a, you know, a comedy monologue that involved me shrieking a lot into a microphone and he burst into tears when I rehearsed it. So we've had to have some conversations about like what it means when Daddy's doing a shows.

[00:10:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Oh my word. Yeah. Wouldn't have thought about that, but that makes complete sense. So yeah, so now you are-- have you finished the production portion of your upcoming show that I know is at least, well, it is not only debuting at the Kansas City Fringe Festival, but other Fringe Festivals as well. But have you finished that production? Are you still in the works?

[00:10:45] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I, I have a complete recording of it. I have lots of post-production to do in terms of editing and, you know, making it make sense and be relevant for the festival I'm doing it at, but you know, the fun creative stuff is done now. It's, you know, slugging towards the finish.

[00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Do you do all your own editing yourself?

[00:11:06] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Again I, I would love to have the kind of expendable income to hire someone else to do all that at the less fun parts of the job. But it's still a one man band right now.

[00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: I understand. I understand. Well, we can only keep keep dreaming and shooting for those goals, yeah? One day I'll have my own editor. And until then, it's me doing it all. I, I get that. It's all good, though. Well, that's exciting. So yeah, so this year you're going to be premiering-- this is, this a brand, this is a brand new show for you. Is that correct?

[00:11:43] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I've done it once before. I did it for ,I did it online for the Minnesota Fringe back in 2020 as a, as a live stream.

[00:11:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. And so can you tell us a little bit, maybe more about what the show is about and maybe even your creative process in developing it?

[00:12:03] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah, totally. It's, the title is "On the Concept of Irony with No Reference to Socrates." And it's a, it's sort of a comic horror anthology. It's a collection of different stories that are, you know, about dark and terrible things happening to people in a way that is hopefully funny is the best way I can think of describing. This is the perfect time for it, right? But yeah, it's, I mean, generally the way these anthology shows come together for me as I sit down with a binder full of, well, what's everything I've written in the past year and what's the connecting theme and there always is one. And it, it was a very dark show because it's been a very dark year. So I think that's how that emerged.

[00:12:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, I can understand that. And so this has a political bent as well, I would, if that's, is that correct? Based on what I know from you describing it earlier?

[00:13:03] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, I I'd say that's fair. Yeah. It's yeah. There's usually a little bit of a political bent to everything I do, although a little bit more to this one. Like there's some, you know, it's yeah. It's, it's really hard to describe --part of this is because these are all sort of short horror stories that revolve around a twist. So it's hard to talk about them without revealing, you know, and here's the punchline, but like it is stuff --like one of the stories is about a comedian waking up in this post-apocalyptic dystopian future and trying to pick up his career where he left off and, you know, one of them is about the sort of a Lovecraft parody about a scholar being driven mad by his new Bischon puppy, you know, it's, it's stuff like that.

[00:13:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. Okay. Yeah. I know you can't give us, you know, the full synopsis, which is fair. Yeah. Okay. So sort of, yeah, gathering what you've kind of created throughout the year and then, and then coming together and with this theme, I think that's really cool. So what are some other themes that you've tackled in the past that have sort of just, again, emerged based on what was happening in the world or what was happening in your life? I'm just curious about some of your former work as well.

[00:14:20] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh yeah. That's a really good question. There's a, I'm trying to think of my previous anthology shows. I, I hadn't. Probably my first was a horror collection called "Fear and Trembling" that-- another very bleak one. I don't have a lot of super uplifting shows. I, I wish I was one of those guys. I wish I can count the number of shows I've written with like a quote unquote happy ending, probably on one hand. It's, I did one called" Concept of Anxiety" that was largely SciFi and largely sort of an examination of time and memory and mortality will be the biggest thing of just you know, I think, I think I'm the first writer to really ever tackle the question of dealing with their own mortalities. I'm, I'm quipping. I'm pretty sure I'm not.

[00:15:08] Lindsey Dinneen: So you mentioned these as anthology shows specifically. So you would create that as, as say a separate category then. It's just like, what else would be, what else have you done, I suppose, that would be a different? Just because again, this is, this is new to me, I'm sure it's new to some of our listeners-- as far as like, sort of within theater, you have these different, you know what I mean, different kinds of genres or different styles or whatever. I just, I'm just very curious to learn.

[00:15:36] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Totally, totally. I mean-- I, and yeah, I've definitely done one man shows that revolve around a single story. The last show that I took to Kansas City in the before times was called " Get Thee Behind Me, Santa: An Inexcusably, Filthy Children's Time-travel Farce for Adults Only."

[00:15:53] Lindsey Dinneen: You believe in long titles

[00:15:54] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: And cumbersome language, funny. So if you don't, my shows will probably be a slog.

[00:16:01] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. I just have to tease you because I'm like your title this year is long and that's even longer. I love it.

[00:16:08] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: But yeah, the premise of that one, it was, it was a time travel farce in which Jesus and Santa which places and create a new timeline. And it's the efforts of various characters to try to restore the original timeline. And yeah, so that's certainly one of the silliest things I've ever written. That's probably one of the five happy endings.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay. Awesome. That, that is, that sounds fantastic. I I feel like I need to see that. Oh man. Okay. So now, I'm also curious because I, I would imagine that the genre, so to speak, of horror is quite broad in that it could be everything from, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but everything from like scary stories, but that are like scary, you know, like, you know, campfire stories that aren't bad- bad versus like, you know, so like to the extreme, and I wouldn't even know that because I don't watch it. It's like, where do you kind of fall in the spectrum of what horror could be as far as your stories? Like would I be terrified is really what I'm asking?

[00:17:17] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, I, I, I definitely write a pretty wide range of stuff. This particular show is definitely going for the blackly comic vein. So I don't know that there's anything particularly terrifying in them so much as unsettling or sickening, in again, hopefully funny ways. Like I have definitely written some stuff, stories that reach for the-- hopefully this year I will be releasing a written my third book, a horror collection, that has a wider range of stuff in it. In this one, yeah, I'm definitely hoping-- it, it's always tough with something like horror to say, " I'm hoping people have a good time." But like, it's, this is not, this is not a show that's about giving you nightmares. This is a show about making an audience uncomfortable in hopefully different ways.

[00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so, okay. Well that, that helps because I can deal with that. I just don't like to be terrified. So is it uncomfortable is, is doable, but I'm curious, is it so that you can inspire your audience to think differently about a subject or to act differently, or is it simply uncomfort, discomfort for discomfort's sake?

[00:18:36] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I'm, I'm definitely not a missionary writer. I'm the, I know I write a lot of political material, but I'm not a guy who really believes in audiences going to come see one of my shows and scream, "The scales have fallen from my eyes," and convert to my ideology. But I, I do think if what I write serves the function, I'd probably call it something like reverse gaslighting in terms of, I want people to come to see one of my shows and go, "Oh, okay. I'm not crazy. Someone else does think everything else is crazy too."

[00:19:12] Lindsey Dinneen: So also kind of hoping then to-- well, and I'm extrapolating, so correct me if I'm wrong-- but sort of bringing awareness to maybe the darker side of, of experiences that we've all sort of had, but we think are like solely unique to us of sort of, "Oh, nobody else thinks this way or something like that." Okay.

[00:19:35] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I think that's totally fair.

[00:19:38] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Deal. Very good. Well, you know, you, you mentioned not that having this like huge transformative story, but you've obviously been very brave in going after, you know, your passions and your dreams. I mean that, that's not easy and that shouldn't be like glossed over, right? I, I feel so I'm, I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for somebody who is interested in trying to get their work out there, but maybe feels super intimidated or isn't quite as like, "I'm just going to go for it and see what happens." You know what I mean? Like somebody who's a little more hesitant, what would your advice be.

[00:20:17] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, I, I wish I had something more encouraging to say then, you know, stop procrastinating. Like there, there really is a point at which you can, you can think about this all you want. You can deconstruct this all you want. You can rewrite this all you want, but sooner or later, you've, you've just got to get something in front of other people even if, even if it's at an open mic or a reading or, or a live streaming on Twitch or anything. You've, you've, you have to take that step to getting in front, getting it in front of another human being. I think that's-- because that's, that's really the first step. That's when you're going to learn very quickly, whether what you're doing is working or not, and what's not working about it.

[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think I love that advice. I think you're absolutely correct. You know, just if anyone's listening to this and interested in an opportunity to get their work out there, you know, Fringe Festivals are the perfect way to do that, I think. I don't know how you feel, Phil, but what's great about them is that they are unjuried and uncensored. And so, you know, for developing an audience and getting real honest feedback, it's a really good way to do it at an affordable rate, I think. What do you think?

[00:21:35] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm obviously I'm a convert. I've, I've devoted a not insignificant portion of my adult life to Fringe Festivals. So I'm, I'm not going to take any sort of counterpoint to Fringe Festivals being a great, fantastic thing. But yeah, I, I just, I also feel like this advice is so much more discouraging in the middle of our current situation. Just go out, go to a show, get in front of an audience, or it's like, no, nobody can do that right now.

[00:22:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. But like you said, there are virtual ways to do so. And you know, you can really start small and just get a few people's feedback. I mean, it doesn't have to be like, you know, a worldwide debut, it can be literally just a couple of people who are willing to give you that feedback. So, yeah, no, I think, I think you're spot on and I, I would like to imagine that we'll get back to live performances soon.

[00:22:26] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I'm hopeful. I think I'm more, I'm more pessimistic then a lot of our colleagues. I think, I think we've still got a ways to go, but I'm, I do see light at the end of the tunnel. So I'm enthusiastic about that.

[00:22:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. And that's, that's fair for sure. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, your life has looked different recently. You talked about, you know, having a toddler and obviously that changes the way that you work a little bit, well, a lot, I'm sure. And then also there's COVID, which messed everybody up. But do you think that, you know, over the last year obviously wrote a show that was darker in nature, but like, what were the things that stood out to you that, that were productive, that were interesting developments in the art world or the theater world?

[00:23:18] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, for me. This has been sort of a boon for me in the way, 'cause it threw me out of my comfort zone in terms of I'm one of those guys that really dove onto the grenade of live streaming. I've been trying to produce a couple of shows a month and I've really been challenging myself to find ways to use the medium, like to not just stand up and, and perform one of my one- man shows to a webcam, but trying to figure out ways, okay, this is, this is a legit new, medium. What are, what are things I can do? I'm working on commissioning new music for a couple of different shows. I have, the show I'm doing for Kansas City Fringe, it involves me performing against like animated backgrounds and things like that that changed behind me as the scenes change and as I'm talking about different events in the story. So I've, yeah, I've really been pushing myself to try to find new ways to use new media.

[00:24:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I totally relate to you going out of your comfort zone. But yeah, it's, it's been an interesting not to overuse the word, pivoting, but you know, it's been an interesting, pivoting year. I'll put it that way.

[00:24:31] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I did a show on election night that was just me. It was me reading favorite historical texts from about a 5,000 year period around different sort of political movements. And, but yeah, it was, it was me reading for five hours straight, and there is no way in a million years I would do this in a live theater and expect an audience to stick around for it. But like via a live stream system, like I'm basically a radio station, you know, people can tune in and out. They can play me in the background while they do something else. It's, you know, it's, it's not something I would ever do in an in-person performance, but it's something I was really excited about doing online. So I've been trying to change my thinking in that way.

[00:25:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's super cool. What a unique idea, I love it. Yeah. And that makes total sense. Yeah, you're right. No audience would probably stay for five hours. I don't even know if we can get them to stay for two sometimes, but you know, that's awesome. I love it. Well, I'm sure that there are many moments that probably stand out to you, you know, impactful when it comes to the arts, but I'm curious. Do you have any specific stories that come to mind either witnessing somebody witness your art or you witnessing somebody else's art that was like, "I've got to remember this moment. This is important."

[00:25:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh man. There's so many. And oh, I feel like so few of them are stories like, there was a, I was a huge fan of a theater in Minneapolis. They were this Leacock based company that chose to set the stakes in Minneapolis, for whatever reason. They just had lots of really brilliant movement, clowning, poetic stuff. Or I really like nothing I've seen before or since. But again, if I try to describe a single moment, it's, it's tricky to do, and I've certainly, I've had those moments in my own work, you know, where you, 'cause again, it's, it's very easy in our profession to sort of fall into our own heads and to find ourselves floundering with a sense of, "Well, am I just screaming into a void? Does anyone responding to this at all?" And then you, you do get those moments of you know, people who come out. And you know, I, I had a 10 minute preview I did as part of a showcase in a small town in Minnesota, where someone just came up to me afterwards with tears streaming down their face. And I mean, that's something you remember as a performer, because that is not a performance that I was even particularly invested in. You know, it was sort of annoying and something I had to do, but you know, it, the work did the work.

[00:27:20] And you know, I, I, I can think of a couple of things, like there was a time in Indianapolis. I do a fair amount of political comedy, which is often challenging, has grown more challenging in recent years. But I remember one show I did in Indianapolis, where there was a group of hecklers who came with the intention of sabotaging the show. But about 15 minutes into it, I won them over and then they invited me out for drinks afterwards. So like, that's definitely something I hold as a badge of honor.

[00:27:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. That's huge. Congrats. I love that story. I think that must be one of the rarest occurrences of something like that happening. Kudos to you. ,

[00:28:04] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: But I also think a lot of it with political comedy is people expect you, and, and certainly my stage persona is more sort of brash and confrontational than I am in real life. I'm a very conflict averse person in real life. But also that in most of these shows, I really, really make an effort to make myself vulnerable that I'm not presenting myself as a, you know, I don't lurch onto the stage as a guy who has all the answers. I'm, I'm awkward and clumsy and a screw up and I, I talk about my experiences in the world of politics and activism, and and I think that self-deprecation tends to disarm people. But it's, it's, it's totally opposed to our instinct because of this, you know, this is a world that's so venomous that our instinct is defensiveness and it's very hard to, to switch that off, you know?

[00:29:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I do. And I, yes, I agree with you. But I, I really liked that approach and I think that that's so helpful. It's so interesting. I'm actually, I just finished reading a book called "Dare to Lead" by Brene Brown, which is fantastic if anyone needs a good read, but she talks so much about vulnerability and, and when you're vulnerable and willing to be, yeah use self deprecating humor or whatever, then it opens up conversations that wouldn't either take place or would be awkward or controversial or whatever, but like, if you can start from a place of vulnerability and be like, "This is me, this is where I'm coming from." Then all of a sudden you can open up these doors. So I love that. I love that that's what you do.

[00:29:49] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, I should also throw out the caution to anyone hoping to follow in these footsteps that it does not work a hundred percent of the time. There are definitely times I walk out and say, "I'm a terrible person." And the audience's fully prepared to agree with me.

[00:30:01] Lindsey Dinneen: And you're like, "Okay, here we go." Oh, no, that's funny. Well, to be an artist is to be brave, yeah? It's part of the deal. Oh my goodness. Well, this is awesome. So I'm sure that there are listeners who will want to connect with you and, you know, watch your shows and follow what you're doing. So is there a way for them to do that and how can we stay in touch?

[00:30:28] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, there, there totally is. Easiest way is my website, which is maximumverbosityonline.org. You mentioned that I had a thing for a unwieldy titles and there it is. That's my website. Yeah. We also have a Facebook page, which is updated significantly less. That website is your best hope if you want to know what's going on.

[00:30:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I can relate. Social media is one of those things I'm like, okay, here we go. Got to remember to keep up with it.

[00:30:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh yeah. And if, if you're trying to avoid the venom social media is not a place you want to spend a lot of your time.

[00:31:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair, totally fair. Well, that's awesome. Thank you for that. Yes. You know, I, I just had to tease you about those titles, but I, I do love a good, long title. So anyway. Perfect. Well, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you sharing your stories and your insights. And I do have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:31:26] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, of course. Has anyone ever said no? Have you ever?

[00:31:30] Lindsey Dinneen: No one has ever said no. I did have a guy one time who was like, "What happens if I do say no?" And I was like, "Well, I, I, you know, if you did I'd respect that, I would find it ironic, but yes, you can say no." Okay. Well, anyway, the first question is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:31:52] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, man. Okay. Again, I'm I'm the broad definitions guy. So I mean the, the cop-out answer would be to just say, I'd accept whatever definition anyone wants to give, but trying to be a little more thoughtful about it. How do I define art? I would say, I would say it takes a, there has to be an element of artifice for me. In, and even saying this as a storyteller who stands on stage telling personal stories, I think there does have to be an element of someone presenting themselves to someone else and presenting something created, something that there is an acknowledgement between the person presenting it and the person receiving it, that there is an element of unreality to this. That's pretty vague, but that's the first thing that's sprang into my head. So I think I'll stick with it.

[00:32:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I like it. Okay, perfect. And then my second question is what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:32:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So my instinctive response to that is leeriness, because I, first of all, I obviously do believe that there is an important role for artists. I'm a professional artist. It's, it's something I've devoted a huge portion of my life to. It's my passion. I am always a little fearful that there's a danger because we've all known that sort of the artist with the sort of messianic complex, you know, the idea that I'm creating something because I believe it's important. And this approach generally creates art that is not that enjoyable. And I'm, I'm resistant to that. That said, I do believe that art is important, but I, I tend to flinch from that as a starting place for making something. But if I had to say, what is the role of art? Again, the first thing that leaps into my mind is, it's to provide a kind of fun house mirror. It's to provide a reflection of reality that distorts it in some way or shifts our focus onto a specific aspect of it. Does that, does that work?

[00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, that definitely works. I love that description. Absolutely. Never heard it put quite like that. And I think it's fabulous. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title, show notes, just the inspiration behind it. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:34:53] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Cool. So the question is basically, how do I feel about sort of letting people backstage of the process? Is that, am I reading that correctly?

[00:35:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I, yes. I think so. Yeah. Context versus not having contexts. So either yeah knowing a little bit about what the artist was intending or experiencing during the creation versus like none of that.

[00:35:18] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Right, right. So it's sort of like a, does a magician explaining his trick, ruin the trick?

[00:35:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure.

[00:35:24] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Sort of thing. Or, or, or it's also like a death of the author thing, right? Where should we just, once something is created, should we ignore the intention behind it because it's sort of out there in the world? Or, yeah. Okay. That's actually a really heady question. I can, my instinct, so I have two totally conflicting instincts about this. My first is that as a writer, I have sort of a caution about exposing too much about the process if only because I think, first of all, it's, it's very easy to romanticize the process. And I think so much of it is, is really kind of tedious. It's, you know, I, I mean, it's, you know, there's a huge portion of it that's just work, that's just problem solving. That's just looking at a problem and rewriting any sort of worry that exposing people too much to that process causes it to lose some of the romance. That said I am also one of those guys who totally digs into, if I find a writer or an artist or a work of art I like, I will dig into as much information I can possibly find about who the artist was, how it was created, what might've been going on in their head.

[00:36:45] So there's, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy in me wanting to be very guarded about my own process, but being very deeply interested in others. My, my cop-out answer is that I think it's up to the individual art. No, no, no, no. I'm going to push myself a little harder, 'cause my thing, like, I've just been going down my whole Kafka obsession again, where like half of his words he explicitly asked to be destroyed upon his death and his executor refused to do this and published it anyway. And I feel a great sense of debt to his executor for not following his last wishes. The, if I have to give an answer, I think more information is not bad. Believing that you have all the information is bad. I think that's my, my statement on the matter.

[00:37:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Final answer.

[00:37:47] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I think so.

[00:37:48] Lindsey Dinneen: You know what? I really liked that. I like that you, yeah, push yourself to explore a little bit further, but, and I think, I think that's a good way to put it too, because sure, you like to have that information available to you, but you still have the choice, whether or not you really want to explore it or not. I mean, you could totally just view the work on its own and not care, like not read the program, not whatever, but having it there is nice for those of us who might want to know, learn a little bit more. So I kind of like where you went with that. Yeah, very good. 10 out of 10. Okay. Well, you know, first of all, again, Phil, thank you so very much for joining me tonight. This has been so much fun. I really appreciate it. And I, I love your unique perspective on storytelling in the arts and well in your, in your approach to making it broader, I think that's really important and, you know, kudos to you for doing what you do. But I would highly encourage those of you who are listening to also check out Phil's website and this upcoming show, because obviously it's going to be exciting, maybe uncomfortable, but in a good way. So yes, highly encourage you to do that. And just thank you so much, Phil, again. This has been a really fantastic chat and I really appreciate it. So thanks.

[00:39:12] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun.

[00:39:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yes. All right. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:38] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's episode, I welcome Will Blaine! He is an artist as well as the author and illustrator of the short story series, "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children," which feature common scenarios of adventures kids get themselves in, such a getting lost at a beach, or getting covered in jam while making themselves breakfast. Will's interview is funny, inspirational, and insightful, and he shares about all the twists and turns his artistic journey has taken him so far. (Fun fact: the cover image to this episode is Will's company's logo!)

Get in touch with Will Blaine: www.instagram.com/curiousmindofwill

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Episode 65 - Will Blaine

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

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[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Will Blaine. He is an artist as well as the author and illustrator of the short story series, "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children," which I am so excited to find out what that means. So I am just delighted to have you here. Will, thank you so much for being here. I definitely appreciate it. Can't wait to chat with you about arts.

[00:02:42] Will Blaine: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

[00:02:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you involved in art in the first place? A little bit about your life journey, if you're okay with that.

[00:02:55] Will Blaine: Yeah, of course. I, I've always been kind of an, an artist and an author. I have always done that since I was a kid and I don't know why, after I break out in my twenties and everything like that, I I don't know. I didn't do it as much, but I always told stories to my, to my daughter. And, and I think this is kind of my-- if anybody knows me, they know this is true about it-- when I read my daughter books. When she was younger, I never actually read the words. I just made up stories as it went along. And the same went for like games, my daughter to this day, she still gets on me because she goes, "You used to cheat at Candy Land." When she was little, she didn't understand what the rules were, so I just made them up as I went along because she didn't know them anyway. So I was just kind of having fun with her, just time, you know, spending time with my daughter and everything. And she, she was about five years old and she realized that I was not following the rules, when she learned to read and understood how the game works. She's like, "Hey, that's cheating!" And I've never lived it down. So I've always just kind of made up stories and, and liked drawing and, and things like that, pretty much all my life. My grandfather was an artist. And he was mostly doing landscapes and he would draw people's farms and things like that. And I think it probably had a little bit of an influence on me as to what I would like to do when I grew up as, as far as my art is concerned.

[00:04:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So kind of having had the opportunity to grow up around it sounds like it was inspiring to you because you liked what you saw and you were like, "Oh, maybe I could do this too." Did he ever have a hand in helping teach you any of, of what he had learned himself? Or did you learn through others?

[00:04:26] Will Blaine: Yeah, he didn't really have that much of an influence on me. Though he did, he did give me lessons a few times, but it was mostly, mostly on my own that, that I've been doing this, the artwork. And I think that I, I need a lot more practice for sure that. Very happy with doing what I'm doing. It's just turned out pretty, pretty well. And I, I like it myself, if nobody else does, at least I do.

[00:04:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and there's a lot of value to that, for sure. I was talking recently with somebody on the show who was talking about just creating art for art's sake for yourself. And it doesn't have to be shown to anyone. I mean, if it is, that's great, but if it's not, that's fine too. It's just about the process of creating and allowing yourself that outlet and you know, it, it just in the end it's, it's that. That's what matters.

[00:05:10] Will Blaine: Yeah. And it's been, it's very therapeutic in many ways too. I mean, it's just, it has a calming effect and, it's a form of expression an outlet that most people don't take advantage of. I think anybody can become an artist really. I mean, just because you don't think that you can draw up a particular thing doesn't mean that you can't draw. You know, I think with a little like practice and some lessons, I think anyone can be a pretty decent artist.

[00:05:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I agree. And I think like, I really like what you said about it. It's maybe not so much about that particular thing. So me, for instance, if I were to sit down at a table and look at this bowl of fruit and try to recreate it through a painting, I would fail miserably. And I know that because I've tried and I'm so bad. But if I just sit down and create like whimsical, sort of fun art work that I do paint that's just like my imagination coming to life, I can totally do that, but yeah. Yeah. All about finding the right medium for you, I think. Or the right expression. Yeah. I love that.

[00:06:09] Will Blaine: Right.

[00:06:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, okay. I have to find out all the things about your, your book series, because that just sounds like so much fun. So tell me about that.

[00:06:19] Will Blaine: Yeah. So the wildly "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children" book series is about all of the things that parents do not want their children to do, but all children do invariably. So my first book is called "Vlad and the Vast Beach" is a little boy, about a little boy that runs wanders away from his mother during the day at the beach. The second story of my series is called "Sticky Fingers from Jam." It's about a little boy that wakes up early in the morning and decides to make himself breakfast, and all these are based kind of loosely on my own experiences in life. So "Vlad and the Vast Beach" is based on my experiences going to New York City in the Brighton Beach area.

[00:06:56] I don't know if you know anything about Brighton Beach, but Brighton Beach is an area of New York where everything is Russian. All the people are Russian. All the signs are Russian, the restaurants are Russian, the stores are Russian. Everything's Russian. So my wife and I speak Russian incidentally, so we would, we would go there a few times a year, take a walk along the boardwalk and walk to Coney Island in the evenings. And there would always be people out on the beach, you know, you know, having a good time. And that's where I got the idea for " Vlad and the Vast Beach," having that urban beach setting and having, having Vlad wander off and have a little adventure on his own.

[00:07:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. So how many books have you published so far?

[00:07:32]Will Blaine: I've only published two, I've written probably 10 or 12, but I haven't published them. And my first two books are not illustrated. I just put them out there just because most people were, a lot of people were saying, "Hey, I want a copy of this." And I got tired, tired of emailing people. So I put it on Amazon and you know, it's just selling decently, but yeah, my next story that's coming out is called "The Glorious Gizzard of Roz." It's about a little chicken and it will be fully illustrated. So I look forward to that. That's going to be the first time that I've had a fully illustrated book.

[00:08:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Great! That's exciting. And so I'm curious to know, so your background in creating art and drawing and all those kinds of things obviously has prepared you for this now, but you know, it's interesting to me that that has been something that you've kind of developed into an illustrator role. How is, you know, creating just art for you different than creating art for your own story? Do you find yourself just thoroughly enjoying the process? Are you more critical or?

[00:08:37] Will Blaine: I think it's, it's more restrictive. Once you write the story and you're writing illustration or drawing illustrations for it, you're limited in scope as to what you're going to draw to some extent, because of the story. You have to follow the storyline. If you're just, you know, get my digital notebook out or something like that and start drawing something, I can draw anything I want to. That's one thing that I really appreciate about art. Anything can be art, it doesn't have to be fancy, or it doesn't have to be a particular thing necessarily. It could just be a series of shapes or colors. And, you know, I mean, not that it is all the time, it's usually I do draw something, but it doesn't have to be. You know, just to have a good balance of light and dark and color and, and, and space is-- there's a lot of beauty in that.

[00:09:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was, oh gosh, I think I was reading something. Oh, what was it? Anyway, the author was talking about how shadows bring out the light and you need the shadows in order to express the light that's that's there too. And how that's just can be such a beautiful metaphor for life. You know, it's not-- yeah, the darkness maybe isn't what we would choose, but it is what gives light it's radiance. And there's, there's beauty in that contrast too. That's cool.

[00:09:53]Will Blaine: Something that I noticed lately in some of my art is the use of blank space. What you don't draw, it says a lot more than what you do draw. I've just come to that conclusion more recently in that I've always thought it was kind of ridiculous when people, people said, "Oh, it's on the page already. And it just, it just came to me." That I always thought that was kind of ridiculous. But if you, if you think about it in a way that you look at where the blank spots are as opposed to what is drawn on the page, I liked that, I liked that concept. It's, it seems more valid than anything that I've actually put down with my pen or a stylus or whatever. And I'm, I'm learning to appreciate not having to fill up every little area of the, of the canvas.

[00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I, I am right there with you, I think, especially... So you know, as a, as a dancer and choreographer-- so I've come at it from a little bit of a different artistic perspective-- but I've always believed in the power of stillness, because I think when used well, sort of like your blank space idea, it actually gives a lot more meaning and credence to what's happening in the movement or in the painting or whatever it is because it allows the audience or the, the viewer to take a little bit of a breather and to absorb better. Yeah.

[00:11:13] Will Blaine: Yeah. And I think that applies to music also. I don't think we appreciate times in songs where there's nothing happening. You know, not that you want us to listen to total silence obviously, but there has to be an intermittent to the note. There's, there's notes and then there's, there's times in which there aren't many notes. So, you know, those are just as important as the spaces or is it just as important as the sound?

[00:11:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, okay. So I know you are also now illustrating coloring books. I'd love to hear more about that too.

[00:11:45] Will Blaine: Yeah, I was, it was kind of a shock to me. I didn't know that, that I didn't really plan on doing this, but I was illustrating my second, er, no, it was my first book. I'm going back to "Vlad and the Vast Beach" and I'm going to illustrate it for a future edition. It's going to be fully illustrated, but I was, I was doing some of the drawings and I was developing one of the characters. His name is Carl. He's a seagull. And I had posted it on my Instagram account and I was using this app that allows you to do like a whiteboard animation so people can follow what you're drawing. And, and I got a lot of positive feedback about that. You know, people, people seem to like it. So I started putting a few things on there. So I did a few of those drawings. And then I, I was just doodling one day and in the application and it looked to me like one of those adult coloring books. You see them at the store all the time, you know, for people that they are adults.

[00:12:38] And they're a little more complex than just a basic cartoon that you would color as a kid. And this, this art started looking like that. And I was like, you know what? I bet I could write and, and draw an entire coloring book. So I started just tinkering around with different things and, and now I've got 27 drawings toward a coloring book and they're just rich, random shapes. And I don't know what the representations of different things that I think using shapes and, and I don't know. I think it's artistic and, and fun. And I've, I've had people tell me that it's just therapeutic just to watch the whiteboard animations on, on my Instagram account. You know, people just like watching things appear from blank space. You know, it's enjoyable for me. It's something that I think is pretty easy. It allows me to express myself. It's, it is kind of therapeutic for the artist as well as the person that's enjoying.

[00:13:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. Well, and I know, especially, I think coloring books have gained more popularity lately because, like we were talking about briefly before we even started recording, it's kind of a trend now, even for adults to have coloring books, but you know, it's, it's so fun. It's, it's fun, especially if you don't consider yourself to be a fine artist and you just enjoy kind of coloring in the already established lines. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm that way. So I mean, I'm curious, from your own experience or your own opinion, why do you think coloring books resonate so well with people as a, as a hobby?

[00:14:16] Will Blaine: I think it's, it's kind of like a mindless activity. It doesn't take a lot of effort. And I think, I think it's a way of relaxing. I think it's the same reason why people watch television. You sit there and it just, it takes minimal effort. You don't have to think about anything particularly. And, you know, I, I think when you have, you know, if you use markers or crayons, it doesn't matter. I think that the colors are impactful on your psyche, I think. I work on my, in my day job, I'm a process engineer for a large company. We will build the big trucks and some areas of the factory are very dark and there's not much color. And in other areas of the factory are bright and lit and shiny. And, and I think people are in much better moods typically in the areas that have color, that have light. And I think that's the same with coloring. You have those colors, you have those brightness, it allows you to express yourself if by no other reason or way, by what colors you choose. You can, you can make a coloring sheet a gray dismal mess, or you can make it flourish.

[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you brought up an interesting thing that I'm curious to ask you more about. You know, you mentioned having a day job, and I think there are a lot of us out there that have their day jobs in addition to pursuing their art. What advice do you have for somebody who maybe either feels like they don't have enough time to devote to their art or how, how do you balance that? And what advice do you have for someone who's interested in that?

[00:15:50]Will Blaine: I think whatever you choose to do, you have to buy out the time from something else. You know, I I've, I'm basically an efficiency expert at my job, my day job. So I am very much into efficiency type things. So I do, I did a time study on my life and I was looking at things, like how much time do I spend watching television each week? How much time do I spend checking email? How much time do I spend playing a game on my phone? Or how much time do I spend exercising? And I started looking at all these things and I was like, "Wow, is that how I want to spend, spend my life?" You know, if I'm, if I'm sitting down and literally, it's not uncommon for people to watch, you know, five or six hours of television every day. You know, you multiply that times a week and there's your time. You have, you have plenty of time. Yeah, it's just that you have to buy the time out from something else. If you want to spend your life watching television, that's your choice. But if you think that you might want to be an artist, that's, that's your practice time right there too, you know?

[00:16:52] And, and anymore, I, for several years now, I don't think I've watched very much television at all. In fact, I don't have, I don't have cable or anything like that. We have like a regular antenna that picks up several stations, but even then I don't watch it that much. I just, for the most part, I think it's kind of boring. I don't really, I couldn't even tell you who is a famous person on television right now. I don't, I just don't know their names. I haven't watched television in that long. So it's a choice. I think people can choose to do what they want to. And I think many people just get sucked into a routine or a rut and you know, they don't make the choice to be an artist or to be an author or to be a musician or a, or a choreographer or whatever. Yeah. We choose how to spend our life and you just have to really do a a gut check and just take a look at your life. Go around with a stopwatch and see how much time you spend doing different activities in your life. You'd be surprised.

[00:17:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's fantastic advice and really resonates, I'm sure, with a lot of people, because you're right-- it's, it's not that you don't have the time. You just spend it in a different way. So it's just a matter of prioritizing. I mean, what do you want to do with your life? Like you said, do you, do you want to just watch TV? And if so, you know, that's, that's your choice, but if you're trying to carve out time, that's a great place to start. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you talked earlier about, you know, storytelling and making up rules as you go along with your daughter and I'm, I'm curious, how much has your daughter influenced the work that you do as an artist?

[00:18:30]Will Blaine: I think that we're very much an influence on each other. In fact, she, she tells me that I resonate in her head all the time, just from different things that I told her growing up and advice that I'd given and things like that. But she also influenced me a great deal as well. You know, it instilled in me a love for reading, for instance. Read her, read her a story every night before she went to bed and I instilled in her a love of reading and really helped along with her education as well. But it also helps you. The more you read, the more you will be able to write. I, I really believe that. And it's the same, same way with art. I think the more that you're involved in activities and, and drawing and, and other artistic expression, I think the more likely the more inspired you'll be, and the more likely you will be.

[00:19:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what is the-- and I know this is kind of a far reaching question-- but what does the future look like to you? Are you planning to continue publishing and, you know, creating new books and illustrations and maybe coloring books? Or do you, do you have other things on the horizon as well?

[00:19:40] Will Blaine: I, I do. I have, I have so many ideas. It's just, it's not enough life left to accomplish everything, all the ideas that I already have. So yes, I will continue writing. I've, I've got lots of ideas for books. I've I would like to write a book of memoirs of my travels. Like right before the pandemic, I spent a month in Europe, we went to Germany and Switzerland, Italy and Croatia, and really enjoyed ourselves. There's lots of experiences that I've, I'd love to write about, lots of situations I've found myself in, in life that were kind of unique that would, each of those would make a story themselves. And of course, I've got a lot more kid stories that I've already written that I just haven't published yet. And then I've got a lot more to that. I'm currently writing, I think, every, every day that I walk around and I see something, I write a story about it. It's, it's seems like something that I don't know if it comes naturally to me, but it's, it's pretty easy for me and I like doing it. So I think it's something that I'm probably going to continue to, to to write.

[00:20:35] My wife and I were at, went to a park several months ago, and we were taking a walk due to the COVID, you know, was trying to keep isolated from, and as well as get our exercise. And we saw this large oak tree that had tipped over and she's, my wife was kind of telling me, I don't know, teasing me a little bit. And she was like, "Do you think you can write a story about that?" You know, 'cause it just says this old oak tree that's leaning over. And I actually did write a story about it. It was called "Gary the Great." It's about a little woodpecker that thinks that he has knocked this tree down and he gets a little bit of arrogance in his, in his life, because he thinks that he's done this great thing, but it's a fun story. And all of my stories always have a lesson at the end of it, too, for kids as well.

[00:21:15]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That sounds so, so fun. I really-- yes, that, that, that resonates with me. Like those kinds of things. Oh, fantastic. Well, yeah, so I'm sure that, you know, you have tons and tons of stories to share, but I wonder if there are a couple that really stand out to you as either maybe witnessing someone interact with your own art that was really impactful, or you participating in somebody else's art, and it was just this moment to remember because it was impactful?

[00:21:51] Will Blaine: I think life experiences are very impactful. And sometimes you don't know how to express them at the time. And I, and I'll, I'll give an example. And my second story is called "Sticky Fingers from Jam." And it's about a little boy that gets up early in the morning and makes himself breakfast. And that was actually inspired by my cousin. So I was raised on a 120 acre farm in, in rural West Virginia. And my chores involve getting up at six o'clock in the morning, going out to the barn and feeding the animals, which involve me walking past my uncle's house. So it was six o'clock in the morning. And my cousin emerged from a cornfield and he was probably three years old at the time, which would have made me around eight or nine years old at the time. And he was completely naked. And he was covered in butter and sugar from head to toe, absolutely covered. And I didn't think anything of it at the time, I thought nothing of it. And he proceeds to tell me that he's made himself breakfast.

[00:22:50] And you know, I'm looking back, you know, when I turned like 40 years old, I was thinking to myself about that situation, you know, how you reflect on your life sometimes. And I was thinking to myself, his house must have been covered in sugar, that his parents probably had ants for years. I mean, if you had that much sugar on you, how much did you get all over the kitchen and your bedroom and where, wherever else you walked before you made your way out of the house completely. But, but those, those things are impactful, you know? And sometimes, sometimes you just take, it takes you a while to be able to express those things. So I wasn't, you know, I was, I was well into adulthood before I even thought about that again, those experiences. And at that point, you know, I could look back with the experiences that I've had in my life and what would have happened if it was my child in that situation. And I was able to make a story of, formulate the story out of it and that, that's what creates the art. And not only the, you know, the visions that you have for the work that you're going to do as an artistically, but also the, and the authorship, how you're going to write about it and, and how you're emotionally going to interact with the situation.

[00:23:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Well, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who are going to be super curious to read those awesome books that you're writing and, you know, follow your artistic journey. Is there a way for them to do that?

[00:24:14] Will Blaine: They certainly can. If you want to see what I'm doing just day to day, I typically will post at least once a week on Instagram. It's Curious Mind of Will. That's my company's name. C U R I O U S M I N D. And you can also look for me on Facebook. I just use my personal account as Will Blaine, and I think I have the Curious Mind of Will there as well. I don't post to that as much, but if you want to, if you want to take a look at my books and stuff like that, they're on Amazon. You can, you can look me up. Will Blaine. Just type that in there. And you can type the titles of my two books that I have published so far. That's "Vlad and the Vast Beach," " Sticky Fingers from Jam." Those are the two that are published so far. Coming soon is going to be "The Glorious Gizzard of Roz."

[00:24:52] I think that's, this is my favorite book by far, this far. I guarantee you that you won't understand what the story's about until the very last word, even adults. And it's, it makes everything tied together. Yeah. So that's one of the, one of my favorite stories that I've written. And I really, really enjoy reading that to kids. I, I read at story times and different things like that too for, you know, like libraries and things like that. And I really enjoy the reaction when I want to have a, you know, like a Facebook live or a story time or anything like that. The kids, kids love that story.

[00:25:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah. I'm personally excited to read those books because they sound awesome and I can't wait to continue following what you do 'cause that's right up my alley too. So yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay that.

[00:25:46] Will Blaine: Absolutely, let's go..

[00:25:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:52]Will Blaine: I think that, that art is tied up in an emotional expression, for me anyway. I think many people do art for different things, but I think it is always tied up with the emotion that you're feeling. It's very, it's very deeply emotional, whatever it is and that's, and that's why I don't think that art has to be anything particular. You don't have to draw a tree or a bush or a person, you know, you can just-- you'll see how the colors blend, and you can see how the shapes go together. You can see what space there is and, you know, whatever you're feeling that day, it affects what you're going to put down on that page. And it that's, that's, that's so fundamental to what art is. I think that defines what it is.

[00:26:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:41]Will Blaine: I know that artists do different things. I think that many artists like to make political statements and, and things like that, but I, I don't think that's the most important rule or role. I think that that artists should do it for themselves primarily. I, I've, I've seen people that are artists that want to become famous. I don't particularly want that myself. I, I mean, I don't, I never desired to be famous. I just like entertaining kids, basically. But I think that a person needs to do it as a, as a way of expressing themselves. That's the most important thing above everything else.

[00:27:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I will define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a title or program notes or the inspiration. Versus an artist who does not, who puts their work out into the world and doesn't provide context so it's left solely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will.

[00:27:48] Will Blaine: Well, I going to say that depends. And the reason I say that primarily I liked the, to know what is beyond behind the artist and what they've done. But I've seen a lot of art that I had no idea what it was or who drew it or, or whatever, and I've still liked it. So I think there's room for both, but at personally, I, I prefer to get some background. It helps me to understand what's going on in your mind, and it helps you to help me to understand the emotions behind the art. That's really the fundamental part of it.

[00:28:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much for being here and chatting art with me, Will, I really appreciate it. I'm very excited about what you're doing and what you're bringing to the world. I think that obviously you bring a lot of fun and joy to kiddos, but also to adults, I'm sure, who are enjoying these stories as well. And I'm excited for the, this new coloring book to emerge and all those different things. So just thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think that's really important and I'm glad you're doing it. And, seriously, thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun.

[00:29:02] Will Blaine: Yeah. And I enjoy your format too. And I like getting out there and being able to be on, on shows like this, and you're doing a great service for the community and for the world. I, I really appreciate being on here and you're doing a great job.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you! I really appreciate that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I highly encourage you to check out Will's , go onto Amazon, buy those books, follow him on Instagram so you can kind of keep updated with all these new, exciting endeavors that he's embarking on. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:43] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's episode, I welcome Sally Brown! Sally is a feminist, artist, curator, and writer, who strives to always elevate and amplify women artists and their work. She shares about her journey from art reviewer and museum curator to embracing her own unique body print artwork, and what that has taught her about being a mother, and about women in general. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Sally!)

Get in touch with Sally Brown: www.instagram.com/sallery_art | https://linktr.ee/sallery_art

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Episode 64 - Sally Brown

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

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[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of our Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sally Brown. She is a feminist, artist, curator and writer, and I'm so excited to dive into all the different things that she does and has dabbled in and is proficient in. And I just can't wait to have a conversation about art with you, Sally. So thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.

[00:02:40] Sally Brown: Well, thanks for having me. It's an honor. I'm excited.

[00:02:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I would love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, what got you into all the different, cool things that you're doing and maybe what you're up to these days.

[00:02:55] Sally Brown: Yeah. Thank you. Well, it's like, how far back do I go? I was a fashion design major in undergrad before I took a drawing class and fell in love with it and just decided to be an art major. And when I graduated from undergrad though, I thought, "Oh, there's too many artists. I, I don't need to put my, my art out there." So I went into working for the galleries and museums doing fundraising and administration. And I kind of got burnt out. Then I had my babies and I kinda missed, you know, missed making art, missed being in the arts. So I started writing arts reviews for the local paper, and I also started modeling for art classes. Kind of an interesting way to get back into the arts, but that kind of led me to get more confidence to use my voice in an artistic way. And you know, if people don't buy it or see it, it doesn't matter, but I still, I had to create, so I got back into drawing and painting that way around, I dunno, 30.

[00:03:53] And I also kind of noticed I felt bad as a mom. Like I felt selfish for taking time to make art and, and in that weird art and I mean, self portraits, you know, some, some nude work and some body prints. And I was feeling like I had to have a reason for that. So I started interviewing women artists about their work and their background. And I found several local in Omaha. This is in Omaha where I'm mostly from, who are making this like unabashedly amazing figurative feminist work. And they were moms or they weren't moms, but they were doing it and they weren't afraid. And that is how I started my blog Les Femmes Folles, which means wild women in French, and I also started curating a series of exhibitions featuring women artists around the body, and in Omaha, and they're very popular. They're still popular. People could hardly get to the door. It was so exciting. So it really kind of boosted my confidence, not only to make my own work and share my voice and, and be okay with that as a mom and as a, as a woman.

[00:04:59] And also just looking to other artists, supporting other women artists, and seeing, respecting their voice in all the different ways via curating and my blog and revealing. I ended up having a a local weekly column in the paper about the arts which I greatly enjoyed. And so yeah, I started doing these body prints. I saw Yves Klein's body prints. He's modernist, mid 20th century, who did performances with women. He wore a full black suit and he directed nude women to paint on their bodies and do these body prints. And I knew of his work, but when I saw his work in DC a couple of years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I love this, but I have to do it." I have to be the director of the model of the artists. And I want to do it in all colors. Yves Klein did blue. I wanted to do all the colors. So that's when I started my series of body prints, and I integrated my interviews with women artists. And then my body prints.

[00:05:58] So I took like excerpts about being a woman artist or being mother artists, and I scripted them on my body prints. And so I did a series of-- my first series was "A Voice" and that was from my first series of interviews. My second series, after my first show, I noticed a lot of people asked me about being a mother and doing it, nude work. And I thought it was interesting because nobody was asking me about the work. They're asking me what my kids think, what, what are their friends think? And they see me nude and all these questions about being a mom, rather than like asking me about the work and my interviews. So my next series was about that. It was called "What Will Her Kids Think?" and I did a lot of research on mother artists and pulled quotes from both mother artists and artists about their moms, and I integrated them into my body prints.

[00:06:48] And I also started a collaborative series of drawings with my kids. When they were 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, they would make hundreds of drawings and paintings every week. And I would give some to relatives and I would keep some for keepsakes and I would recycle some. And then I thought, "Well, why don't I just play with it?" So I started doing a series of some portraits on their childhood paintings and drawings, abstract, which I continue today. I still, I use some of their homework and my body prints today are a series inspired by my master's study. My second master's degree is in art history and I focused on feminist artists. So part of the reason that I feature, I attribute feminist artists is so that I can learn about, I'm forcing myself to learn about them 'cause you don't really learn about them in main art history courses. So I've been doing my own research. I'm learning about them and then also put their names in the titles.

[00:07:45] So if somebody sees my work and they're like, "Oh, tribute to Hannah Hawkes. Who's that?" they might go look and find out about her. So right now I'm continuing my feminist tribute body prints. I'm also doing some feminist tribute drawings where I have a self portrait and a mini reproduction of a feminist artwork in the background. And I'm also, I just curated a show, Feminist Connect, with 42 international artists work co-curated with Leslie Sotomayer and all of the artwork is inspired by another feminist artist. So that's really kind of a grounding theme throughout all of my writing and curating and artwork. Yeah. So that was a long answer to your question.

[00:08:24] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. No, it's great. It's really helpful to, to get some background and, and explore a little bit more about, you know yeah, what led you to what you're doing right now. So I really appreciate that. And I'm, I'm curious because, you know, feminists can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. So I'm wondering how you like to interpret that in terms of yourself being an artist and in terms of the women that you are highlighting and trying to to honor through your work. What, what do you, what does feminist mean to you in that context?

[00:08:59] Sally Brown: It means supporting other women. I mean equality, you know, someday at the very base. But to me, feminist artwork is supporting other women and youth and exploring our experiences as women, because we have been marginalized and obliterated from history and art history and our perspectives just haven't been known. So it's so important for women's stories and perspectives to be told. So even like I'll feature artists on my website and in my exhibitions that, you know, consider themselves not a feminist or like, you know, Louise Bourgeois said she never wanted to be looked at as you know a feminist artist. That's okay. I still love Louise Bourgeois. I still-- artists that consider themselves not a feminist 'cause that's, you know, that's their perspective. That's-- but mine is very broad.

[00:09:45]When I was in graduate school, I, from my art history degree, I also got a degree in feminist studies and it was so interesting. The high element of what feminism can mean? It can mean some very extreme things, but I look at it very broadly. I see them, the word "woman" very broadly. People will ask me, you know, for my blog, "Well, I'm nonbinary, can I be on your blog?" And I'm like, oh, I consider women to be very broad. I like to use the word woman, not a lot of people do in feminist theory, but I think that it's an important word because I don't want us to go back to anonymous. And so yeah, I see it very broadly. I see it as lifting women's perspectives up and positively. I'm not a deconstructionist. I'm not a critic. Those, that's great, those feminists who do that. That's, I'm appreciative of that, but that's not, that's not what I do.

[00:10:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure!

[00:10:42] Sally Brown: If that makes sense.

[00:10:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's, it's helpful to just-- because it's such a broad term, like you were saying, it's, it's nice to have a little bit of context for the work that you're trying to do. And I think that's really cool what you're trying to do in, in elevating women's work, whether or not they consider themselves to be a feminist. I think that's a really admirable thing. It's not, it's not that you're ignoring what they're saying or anything like that. It's just saying that they have a place at the table too. And that's important too. Yeah. Which I really like. So I'm curious because I, I'm not a hundred percent particularly familiar with the work of sort of body prints, I think is what you were referring to. So do you mind explaining a little bit more of sort of the process of that and how that kind of comes together?

[00:11:30] Sally Brown: Sure. Yeah, it's, it's a very personal intimate process, but I do document it. I do record it and take pictures. Yeah, so it's as simple as that. I put down a big sheet in my living room and I pick out my paper and I pick out what kind of mood I'm in for the colors. The other day I did pinks and purples and yellows and reds. I was feeling very springy. And I will just paint either with a paint brush or with my hands, paint brush usually, just onto my torso. Most of mine are my torso or my side. And then I'll do just like a pushup, like on the canvas. And it's just more about the abstract image and the, the moment, you know rather than the composition. The, one of the points is that, you know, women's bodies are so scrutinized and like we're supposed to be a certain way and like all these things and, you know, in society and media. And so one of the ways that I kind of work through that is by abstracting my body. So this is what it looks like, but then you put it, use it as a brush. You put it on paper and it's just this kind of beautiful abstract image. So it's, it's kind of objectifying the body in like a-- I don't know-- an expressive and backwards objectifying way, if that makes any sense.

[00:12:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really cool. Okay. And so, you know, you talked a lot about it, the sort of aspect of motherhood, and it was really intriguing to me and I really think it speaks to our culture. But you know, you, you mentioned that a lot of people were asking you about being a mother and not about the work itself. And I think, again, that that's very indicative of the way our culture sort of is in general towards women. So I'm, I'm curious, you had mentioned, you know, you were, you did a lot of research on, on mothers who were also artists, and I'm wondering what the common themes that emerged were. I mean, what, how did they, how did they interpret it and how did you end up interpreting it? I don't mean it to say it in in terms of reconciling, so to speak, but, but because culture has sort of asked you to reconcile it, I'm curious how you've sort of developed that for yourself.

[00:13:49]Sally Brown: Yeah, you kind of just do it. There was a poem that I came across and ah, I think her name was Amy Shanto? It was "mothers cannot become artists because they already are." And that just like totally hit home. Like, that's what it felt like people were saying. That's what I felt like before I was even making art. I'm like, I can't make art, like the kids are my art. And then that's how people responded. So, I mean, Sally Mann, same thing, Alice Neel, like it's just the same story throughout the times. People just did not want mothers to be artists. And I remember in an undergrad, my, my, one of my professors, my favorite professor in fact said, "You cannot be a mother who'd be an artist." This was 1999. So, I mean, it's just all over. You just have to do it. My mentor, Wanda Ewing, was just, she was not a mother, but she was very familiar with people putting her work down or thinking that, you know, you don't have to do art.

[00:14:48] I mean, mother artists, yes. But also women artists and women, artists of color in general, like our perspectives are just not out there and it's sometimes surprising and shocking to see them because of the history of our perspectives not being out there. So she just said, "You got to just do it, even if it sits in your basement, even if nobody sees it, you just got to do it." And so that's kind of what I do. I'll get bad comments. Some people don't like it, some don't approve and even in my family and, but it's just like, if I don't do it and then I feel like something's missing. And I think expressing myself is an important thing. I think that everybody needs to express themselves. And I think what I'm, what I'm doing is actually a beautiful. I think the woman's body is, is beautiful. I don't think that's part of my statement and people shouldn't be afraid of it. So I think that what I'm doing, even if it's really small and nobody sees it is important.

[00:15:45] I think my kids will see that someday. And what I love is that they're not afraid of it. They have seen my art like forever. They don't question it. I remember one of my kids' friends was over once and they were like, "Why do you, why is there like a painting of a nude woman on your wall?" And like my kid's just like, "I don't know, it's just normal, you know?" So, so yeah, I think it's a good thing and throughout all my research, I pretty much found that it was just the same story. So we just got to keep doing it and people will appreciate it or not just like any other art. But I do think that the, the motherhood perspective is, is so important. And so yeah.

[00:16:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And I, and I think that that's just such a, I'm glad that you address it because I think that that is important. And I really do like what you were saying of, you know, it's, it's important to create and even if it just sits in your basement, it's, you've, you've still gotten to participate in that art creation process, which is healing and it's beneficial and it's inspiring. So yeah, kudos to you for, for doing that and, and including your kids too. And, and speaking of that, you had sort of mentioned, you know, including your kids in various artwork projects. And so I'm curious what that has kind of looked like for you and for them and sort of, how has their work influenced your own, maybe?

[00:17:07]Sally Brown: Oh yeah. Well, you know, when you're 2, 3, 4, 5, you don't think about what, you know, like, "Oh, it doesn't look like a vase, or it doesn't look like a tree." It's just, you just create, you know? And so that's part of what I love about my body, but it's just about creating, it's just about the process. So that, and then that way it definitely has inspired me not to think so much about, you know, when I make my drawings, "Oh, this doesn't look like whatever," what it really looks, whatever, supposedly it, you know, it looks like. It's just, I'm making it. And that's, that's the important part about it is the expressive point about it. And then also as they've grown, my son loves to draw and he just draws line drawings. They're just like so intricate of these game, these gaming characters, but they're just line drawings and I just love his freedom and his cute little like awkward lines.

[00:18:08] And so it just inspires me to just draw the way I draw and not-- again, not think about whether it, the depiction looks like the photograph or whatever, like it's supposed to quote, quote, supposed to And so yeah, they've inspired me in that way. And they've also helped me with my process. Like they've painted some backgrounds, they've done some like leaf prints with me. You know, they do some hand and feet prints, you know, inspired by my body prints and they'll tell me what they think they look like, which is interesting. So they'll see my body prints and they'll see something completely like, they'll see Mickey Mouse or something, and I'm like, that's so cool. Like, that's just the point. Like, I, I, I want you to see whatever you see. And so, yeah, they've, they've gotten really excited, yeah, about art. But sadly now they've almost gotten, art museum-ed out. Now it's like, "Oh, another art museum." That's okay. That's how I was too.

[00:19:06] Lindsey Dinneen: They'll come back around. It's all right. Yeah, I was the same way as a kid too. I mean, you could only take in so much, but then as an adult, it's fun to come back and see those things again and go, "Oh, okay." Yeah. I have a lot more-- I can, I can stand still for longer periods of time. We'll put it that way back. Oh, well, I love that. I love that, you know, it's freedom of expression. It's freedom of interpretation that you're gleaning from your kiddos and how that's, you know, helped you to maybe be a little bit freer in your own expression and interpretation. That's cool. That's really cool. And so, you know, I know that you also have, like, you mentioned having a column for a while, and so I'm curious, what all were you, were you critiquing, were you just talking about different art around the city or whatever? Or what, what was that column for you?

[00:19:58]Sally Brown: Yeah, it was all of that. I had mixed media, which was just kind of like, I don't know --the gossip art column, which was really fun. So I would say like, who's doing what or whatever. And then I also did critical reviews, which I continue to do. But yeah, I, The Reader was the name of the, the newspaper and that really launched me into interest, deeper interests which got me into my graduate studies and art history. And now I continue to do reviews, just freelance or independently, mostly of women, artists, or feminists art exhibits, or books of art by women. And so I really enjoy that. I enjoy the newspaper. The newspaper is my favorite because it's more loose and like kitschy and, you know, it's fast, so you gotta be fast. But when I do my academic critical reviews, it's a lot slower and more serious, but it's important. So important. So I do both.

[00:20:54] Then I do a little bit for my blog too. I started this series of, I turned 40 this year-- last year now-- but so I've been looking at feminist artists and what they did during their 40th year. So I've done a few blog posts on that. That's kind of fun. But yeah, I love, I love all aspects of art, like curating, writing and, and making. So my day job is, it's curating for the university here. So it's, it's a lot, but yet I love, I love it all. Like it all keeps me balanced. I can do one thing for a few minutes or whatever, and then switch to the other mode.

[00:21:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I love it too, because I think that speaks to a lot of artists' lives of sort of having their, their hands in a lot of different areas and sort of yeah, being immersed in art in many different ways and kind of switching from mode to mode to mode, but it's, it's all great because you're doing what you love, which is exciting. So, yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm curious if there are any stories in particular that kind of stand out to you as either somebody witnessing artwork that you created, or you witnessing somebody else's art, and you just had this moment that was inspirational or, or defining or something. It was just like a moment to remember.

[00:22:16]Sally Brown: Yeah, for sure. I feel like a lot of people would say this, but so one of the focuses of my master's thesis was Judy Chicago's "The Dinner Party." And it actually wasn't going to be. My focus was just going to be on feminist artists in general. But my one of my professors was like, "Well, you're going to New York to see "The Dinner Party," you know, this monumental feminist art. And I'm like, "Oh, but everybody knows 'The Dinner Party.'" Like whatever. When I went to see it the first time though, it was, it was amazing. When you go through art museums and history museums your whole life and much, my parents drove me to, and I've always gotten to do, and you see art by men, and then you see history of wars and political figures who are men. It's just so amazing to walk into an exhibit that is fully dedicated to women throughout Western history.

[00:23:13] And so it's this big dinner table triangle. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's in the Brooklyn museum now. It was made '76 to '79 by 400 volunteers. Judy Chicago led it and there's 39 place settings each dedicated to a woman in Western history and they're themed. There's ceramic plates and then there's a runner underneath each one. And then along with them, there is the floor, which has 999 more names of women in Western history. And then outside of there-- I could go on about this-- but basically there's the history of these women on panels and this history I did not know. Like it was amazing. I was, I was whatever, 30-- I'm 40 now-- and first time seeing this, I was like, "How do I not know this history?" And it was just mind blowing and it was beautiful and it was, it's all darkly lit. She hasn't darkly lit and the, the background of the table is mirrors. So you can see yourself to infinity and it's just, it's really inspiring. And of course there's critical feminist issues with it, but, but I, what I take away is the impact of women and how we need to recognize it and how it hasn't been recognized. So that was a huge part of inspiration moment of my artistic life.

[00:24:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, how cool. And yeah, that is something that I definitely would love to see in person, because I'm sure that the pictures do not do it justice as to the impact, you know, like most artwork, I suppose, but something like that-- that, and just the magnitude and, yeah, so much that we don't know that we're not taught that it's important. So. Very, very cool. Well, this has been awesome. And I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you, maybe view some of your own artwork, follow your journey, read your blog. Is there a way for them to do that?

[00:25:15]Sally Brown: Yeah, I would say the easiest is my Instagram, which is @sallery_art. So it's S A L L E R Y underscore art. So that's the best way. And then it has my link tree with all of my different, you know, websites and whatnot. So thank you so much. This has been really fun.

[00:25:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course! Good. Yes. And I do encourage everyone to check out her artwork. It's, it's exciting. It's unique. And it's also really inspiring and, and elevating, and I liked that, so, yes, absolutely. And I do like to ask my guests the same three questions if you're up for that.

[00:25:53] Sally Brown: Sure.

[00:25:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. Well, first of all how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:59]Sally Brown: My kids would be so annoyed. Art is everything. Art is the way to see. I mean, if I was going to get particular, I would say it's something that is, it's expressed. But if you look at things in different ways, anything can be art. I don't know.

[00:26:14]Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, of course. Okay. And then, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:21]Sally Brown: I think to express themselves and make their voices heard because we're, we're documenting life in a creative way for history. So just continuing to do it and using their voice in different ways is just, is the most important role for them. So, yeah, just doing it.

[00:26:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of ties into your earlier theme of creating even just for your own sake. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and includes some context behind it, whether that's a title or show notes, or the inspiration, just something to give the audience a little bit of that context. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context. So it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:27:20]Sally Brown: Oh, I'm totally all about inclusive, because that's what brings people who aren't knowledgeable. That's what makes them scared is if they go into this white cube gallery and there's no context, they're like, "I don't get this. I don't, what is this? Like this isn't for me." But if you include like your title, like a little context, a little story, and that's what's very important about women artists as well, and documenting their, their story and their life to go along with their art. So I'm all about inclusive art, very much so. Accessibility to the max.

[00:27:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that, you know, because I, I agree too, because I think sometimes it can be super intimidating, especially if you haven't had the chance to experience a lot of art or you hadn't grown up around art. So I, I appreciate that you're wanting to include people who might not otherwise know how to appreciate it, or even try, you know? Well, again, thank you so very much, Sally, for being here today and for sharing your own journey and what you're up to these days and the way that you're empowering women and, and your own kiddos and, and all these different avenues that you express yourself through your art. I know you're making the world a better place, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

[00:28:39] Sally Brown: Aw, you are! Thank you for your wonderful work. Thank you, Lindsey.

[00:28:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. No, this is, this is my happy place. I love chatting art with people, so. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, definitely check out Sally's work, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:05] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:14]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's episode, I welcome Patricia Karen Gagic! Patricia has had an absolutely amazing journey, getting to learn from some of the most highly-acclaimed artists in the world, including Monsieur Dragic, who mentored her in France for years. Now, she combines her love of fine arts and education in mindfulness to create Karmic Art Experiences for her clients. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Karen herself!)

Get in touch with Patricia Karen Gagic: www.patriciakarengagic.com | www.inspiredtoberewired.com | patgagic@gmail.com

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Episode 63 - Patricia Karen Gagic

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

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[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Patricia Karen Gagic. She is an international contemporary artist, an author, and the chief visionary officer of a nonprofit charity. And she has such an amazing background and wealth of experience in the arts. So I'm just so thrilled to be able to talk art with her today. Thank you so much for being here, Patricia.

[00:02:43] Patricia Karen Gagic: Oh, hi Lindsey. Oh my goodness. I'm thrilled to be here with you as well. Thank you so much. Amazing opportunity to talk art.

[00:02:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! And I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about yourself, maybe how you got started and, and take us from there.

[00:03:00]Patricia Karen Gagic: Sure. So I've been a always curious person and when I was very young, I thought, "Well, I want to be a fashion designer." And I think I was probably about three years old when I started actually drawing Elizabethan ball gowns. I had never seen one. I have no idea. My family could never figure out how I was drawing these, but there was something inside of me, just this intuitiveness that I just love drawing. And then that catapulted into, you know, me pen in hand wanting to do something different. But as I went through school, I realized I needed to have a career and my family really wanted me to do something more astounding with my life, even though I thought, "You know, having being an artist would be amazing." But you remember the old saying, "artists are poor," so it's not really going to be the way you're going to manage your life.

[00:03:58] So I, I did actually become involved in finance and I joined the bank and by the ripe old age of 25, I was probably one of the first female bank managers here in Canada. And I ruled with, you know, 92 employees and I sort of was climbing the ivory tower, but at the same time, I was still doing these more surrealistic ink drawings, sort of the Salvador Dali style. And, and then my world just, you know, kept going and going until I finally said, "You know, I want to be a painter." And that's the moment that I really fell in love with art, with actually with painting. So that, that's sort of the beginning of the journey.

[00:04:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. And so then you, so you had your career in finance, but you obviously still had this passion and wanting to continue doing art. So what led you to your next step in the journey?

[00:05:00] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, I thought, you know, not having any lessons in art, you know, in painting, that I should probably, yeah-- get myself involved in, you know, an art school. So there, we do have something here. It was McMaster University, and I enrolled myself in a program. And then the, there was the Burlington Cultural Center. And I had an opportunity to be actually taught a master program with an artist who is quite revered in Canada. His name is Tony Urquhart, and he was also teaching at the University of Guelph. So he had invited me one summer to come out, and as they were doing different tutorials and what, I was really feeling, you know, this, this place that I felt very comfortable in.

[00:05:48] And then it was not until 1999 when my husband decided that we should take a trip to France, and that was really the beginning of my, my most synchronistic part of my life. In order, there was a little apartment called the Sunflower Apartment and they always had an ad in the newspaper and my husband called the ad and he said, "You know, we'd like to go and stay." The gentleman who owned the home said, "Sure. Have your wife come and see me, pick up the keys, I'll share everything about it." So we did. And I, I went to his home and, "Oh my goodness." It was an art gallery basically. He had three floors of amazing paintings and said, "Would you like a tour?" I said, "Yes!"

[00:06:32] I see this painting up on the wall. And it's this very abstract white horse, which would've never really, you know, attracted me because my brain was more in the Jackson Pollock style. And but I looked at the name on the painting and it said, D R A G I C. And that's and I said, "Oh, Dragic," because it's a Serbian name, and this gentleman looked at me and he said, "No, no, no, no, no, this is Dragic, and he's in the top 10 percentile and a wonderful artist." And in that moment, I don't know why, but he said, "You know, and it's about three or four hours away from where you will be." and I went, "Okay, I want to meet this guy." Why I even thought that I have no idea, but it was just that auspicious moment.

[00:07:18] So we managed to get ourselves to France and made the phone call to le Monsieur Dragic, and he said no. He said, "No, I'm not seeing anybody. I'm not interested." And I was devastated and I went, "Oh my goodness. I've come all the way here. Now I'm on a mission. I definitely want to meet this, this man, this artist." And then finally we called back and he agreed. And we went to a little fifth century village in Provence. And when we met him, I sat in complete, absolute disbelief because when we got up into his Italia, he was showing me pictures of himself with, you know, very famous artists. And he had also exhibited in some of the most beautiful galleries in in the south of France in Avignon, as well as Grenoble and with Christo and Picasso. And he knew all of these people and he, he was part of that top 10%.

[00:08:22]So I, I was realizing that this man had made an entire life, his whole entire career to flawlessly dedicated, you know, to art and the study of art. And that inspired me. So as we were leaving back to our car, he said, and he does not speak English, only French and Serbian. So thank goodness I had some high school French, but my husband speaks Serbian, so we were able to communicate quite easily. And he said, he said three things. He said, "What does she want? Does she want fame? Does she want money? Or does she want the truth?" And you know, in that moment, the response of course was, "The truth." And he invited me to come back six months later for a week, and this is back in 1999.

[00:09:10] And he said, "But you're going to have to learn to speak some better French so we can really communicate and talk about the art." So I spent 38 hours over the course of those few months with a tutor trying to upgrade my French. And and then we arrived and that was the beginning of a long, 20 plus year relationship. I've been back and forth to France many, many, many, many times each year studying with him. And just could not even begin to tell you how precious that decision was and how, you know, accepting he was of me.

[00:09:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. What an amazing story. I love the way that, oh my goodness, all came together, but I just-- kudos to you for being so bold and brave and really putting yourself out there. I mean, that's, that's fantastic, but I, you know, my goodness just to see that painting and then go, I need to meet this person and, and be persistent about it and then. Wow. Good for you. And then what an amazing opportunity to learn from somebody like that. I mean, my jaw just sort of dropped when I, you were talking about, you know, all of the, basically his circle of influence and friends. I mean, you're learning from masters. Like how cool is that?

[00:10:36] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, the, the shock for me was that he, who he was, you know, at that time, you know, very revered and I thought to myself, there's just no way that I even, why should I fit in? And yet, you know, it's that very precise feeling that we just have, that intuition, and it sits in our gut that if I'm here, I meant to be here. And that's for me that karmic piece. And I also realized after, you know, the first week I was with him, he had never actually taken anyone under his wing. Bozart had invited him in Paris and other schools to teach and he had refused. He's actually quite an eccentric person. Of course he would have to be.

[00:11:23] And in that period of time, I was so humbled, but he really took me to a place of like tabula rasa, where it was like the blank slate. He basically said to me, "Patricia, you know, you might think you know what you know about art," but he said, "in order for me to actually give you the truth," he said, "and, and, and share all of this with you, you have to go to zero. And if you can't do that, if you're going to fight me along the way, it's not going to work." So I, no matter what anyone can say, when you are in front of a master at this level, you close your eyes and you say, "You got it." And I did that. I, I really forgot everything I knew. And what he did was he started teaching with the Matisse palette, which he had been taught himself. And this Mattise pallet, he had manipulated. So basically he had created his own version of it.

[00:12:27] But in order-- this is sort of interesting-- it was always Rembrandt paint oil is how we started and we never spoke about the colors. Everything was done by the number. So for example, if he wanted me to combine two particular colors, we would always say just the name, the number. So it'd be 231 and 156, or 568 and 231 and 107. So I, I had to really memorize the pallet by virtue of the numbers. And then we were able to, you know, to work. So it was, it was quite a challenge. I do recall going there one particular time, and he had an opening at one of the galleries and we went to the opening and then I spent a few days in the Italia with him and he had given me pastels. And I had never used pastels before. And he gave me a book where it was one of his books that was filled with his own, his own work.

[00:13:24] And he pointed to one of the paintings and he said, "Here are six crayons, I'm going to show you quickly how to use them with a razor blade and, and whatnot." And he said, "and here's the paper. And tomorrow I want you to bring me your version of this particular piece." I thought I was going to die. I mean, he gave me six crayons and I looked at all the colors and I thought there's no way under the sun. So I, we finished our work with him that day. And I started working and it was probably four or four-thirty in the morning when I finished the piece.

[00:13:59] I had pastels all over the table, the floor, it was a mess and we rolled it up and that morning went back to the Itali around nine o'clock and he opened it and looked at it and he closed it and put it aside. And I thought, "Oh my goodness," like I've done a terrible job. And I was really, really kind of upset because he didn't say anything. And at the end of the week, he actually gave it back to me and he handed it to me with basically saying he was so shocked that he couldn't tell the difference between his and mine. And, and that's when he made the decision that he wanted to continue teaching me. And then he asked me, that was probably the next trip there to write a --was either-- I can't remember how many thousand words or 2000 words could have been more-- in French.

[00:14:55] And he wanted me to write exactly what I felt art was about to give my own dissertation and, but I had to do it in French. And again, I stayed up the whole time. And I wrote every conceivable thing. I had dictionaries, I had whatever translation like couldn't think of in French, I was making up words and then I took it into him and of course he read it. And, but we, we are the very, very best of friends. And I just, you know, I just feel this beyond, just beyond a blessing in life. And I think about in 2012 or 13, he invited me to have an exhibition with him. The two of us, it was the only time I've exhibited with him in Seoul. And we had yeah, it was just one of those, you know, perfect moments in your life when you have exhibited with the master.

[00:15:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Those are incredible stories. Ah, I'm just enthralled. Oh my goodness. Okay. So I'm just really interested because you mentioned that, you know, he's never done this before and conceivably, maybe not since either. So I'm wondering, what about it, what about you was, do you think, was that he saw this spark that he was like, "yes, she has what it takes. Or she has the dedication." I mean, obviously you had already gone out of your way to meet him, but I'm just so curious because, you know, and obviously you have, you had talent, but I'm just wondering, like what spark was it that he saw, do you think?

[00:16:37] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah.

[00:16:38]Lindsey Dinneen: I need to teach her.

[00:16:40] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. In fact, that's a really great question because about two years ago, of course, you know, I've, I have, I have won many awards for my work, and I've been recognized by different organizations and, and one of them had asked me to provide do I have anything like a, you know, a curation or anything from Monsieur Dragic? And I said, "No, I don't." So I called him and I said, "Would you mind writing something about, about me, about my work?" And he said, "Of course." So he did. And I, it, it, it was quite long. And the translation was basically that he had never met anybody who was, as they said, first of all, humble, but that had such a desire. And my passion exceeded everything around me. And he said just the way I, my temperament was one thing. He said, "you're, you're very wise and calm," but mostly he said "you were, you were so in love with the knowledge, just wanting to know what all the, you know, the bits and pieces of, of life are actually about that."

[00:17:51] He said it was a trigger for him in his own life. He changed his style once or twice while over the past few years. And he said he was, he was actually influenced by my career. And he also said, because I was female, believe it or not, he did have a, a group of psychiatrists that were also painters from Germany that used to come every year, every two years that he would host a few days and give them some support and lessons, but he'd never taken on one individual at any point in time for the full length. Pretty much half my life. So I think I was pretty humbled by, by his words, but more than anything, it was this passion. He said he, he felt it. And he, as the first trip and the second trip and the third trip and the fourth trip went by, I didn't provoke him. I, I didn't push any buttons. I was a sponge and that's what really, I think, fueled even more because then he started to introduce me-- oh, this is a good story. You'll like this, Lindsey.

[00:18:56] One, one of the visits he wanted me to meet Pierre Humbert. So in the south of France, of course, there's this click of, you know, the, the older artists now, many of them were famous at that time, but as history has gone on, they lose the profound. They don't always stay in that highest rank because there's new artists. There's gallery changes, you know, the history and the south of France changed in the art world, but certain people make certain choices. And he invited me to meet Pierre Humbert. Pierre Humbert was actually one of the gentlemen who, who entertained some of the other artists there, including Picasso.

[00:19:40] So when we went to his home, which was out in the, you know, in the beautiful Passage, we had a lunch and he said, "I want you to sit in this particular chair." And I did. And they were, he had another couple of artists with him that came to meet me as well. I was a bit of a novelty to everybody. And I remember sitting in the chair and the first thing Pierre Humbert says to me, he goes-- and they do not speak English. And he said, "Ah, Patricia," he said, "You know, this is Picasso's chair. This is where his bum would sit and no one sits in this chair and you can sit now and you can feel all of the energy from Monsieur Picasso, but also open your eyes and look at the land." And it's, I mean, it is the Passage, it's rolling hills. And he said, "Do you see this particular, you know, area?" And I said, "Yes." And he goes, "This is wherePicasso\ those saw the blue nude, it was the rolling hills of this, this land that was the impetus for him. He, the inspiration."

[00:20:50] And so they sat and shared many stories that, you know, I can't repeat them because I don't remember them. And I, you know, they were just of the moment, a lot of jokes and songs and things that they would do. And then I went into the Italia of Pierre Humbert. And again, you're standing in it, you're standing in the source of history where A) it's a privilege, because I know there are probably, if there's a handful of people on the planet who have ever been stepped into those rare, iconic, you know, caves where all the genius exists, it's like I was in the most perfect think tank. I, I couldn't, I had to pinch myself to even imagine I was the person standing here. And that, you know, sharing that story just kind of makes me again, think about the influences.

[00:21:39] And I became really interested through Dragic's eyes with an artist by the name of Xiao Qi. And Xiao Qi passed away in 2013. He was born in Beijing and decided that he wanted to become an artist probably by the age of 10, but he went to Paris. And he studied in Paris and he actually traveled with some of the more, very, very like Pierre Soulages. He was friends with Pierre Soulages and he traveled to New York with him in the fifties or sixties. And that's when he changed from sort of a calligraphy to this abstract calligraphic work, and I, for the very first time that I ever saw his work, I was insanely smitten. I mean, I it's like you walked into, I could walk into his, his painting into the, into the words. So I've spent the last 20 years studying most of work and trying myself to develop my style based on that influence. And that's where I'm at right now.

[00:22:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is just the coolest thing. I, I'm just so inspired and in love with these stories that just, wow. Wow. What amazing opportunities. I'm so intrigued and, by sort of his methods and how he was teaching you and sort of, you know, even the stories, like 24 hour challenges or whatever you want to call them. But you know, like here's this, this somewhat impossible task, go do it. And you figured out a way to do that. And it's interesting to me, you know, you were, you were talking about in his own words, he was talking about, he appreciated your passion, your humility and everything. I'm sure so much of that is so, so much of that is the willingness on your part to also be a blank slate, because I think on some level that could have been challenging. You know, you, you've come in with a certain set of experience, but you were so willing to-- you put that aside just to learn from a master. And so, you know, also kudos to you because that, I mean, I guess that is humility, but, you know, but that could be hard. So I think that that's really commendable that you were just like...

[00:24:00] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. You know, Lindsey, we, we all have ego. I mean, that's, that's who we are. And unless, you know, you, you come to this world ego-less, which I don't think that's the case for, for us as humans. When you're dealing with somebody who has such a high IQ and his, his ability, I mean, he's a master chess player that he's, he's beyond well-read, speaks many languages, has studied every single artist living, dead. And, you know, just as an example, one day we were in the Italia, and he said, "Let's just do something a little bit different." And he, he opened up a book and I don't remember whose painting it was. And he chose one portion of the painting that was sort of like a white area, like a white creamy area.

[00:24:54] And he said, "You know, you know how simple things look when you, when you examine them?" I said, "Yes." And he goes, "Let's try and create that color." And I said, "Like off the painting?" And he goes, "Yeah," he says, "You have the palette." He said, "Go to it." Lindsey, if you ever wanted to shoot your self sometimes... I spent from nine o'clock until noon. And I, he came in once or twice and it was "Zero," you know? And that's how he would speak to me. "Zero. No, Patricia." I was like, "Are you kidding me?" I've got titanium white. I've got to think white. I'm adding 568. I've got this. And I'm, I'm just going out of my mind, could not, I could not figure out how to create that particular color in that painting. We went to lunch, came back after two o'clock because we always take two hour lunches, and said, "Keep going."

[00:25:50] So I did. And it had to have been like from two to five o'clock. And I could not, I could not make that color. And I was every combination, a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that, a little less of this, a drop of black. It did not matter. I was, I was caught. And then at the end of that, he said to me, he goes, "You know," he said the greatest lesson that one has to learn is the true appreciation for the palette and the depth by which any, any artist chooses to make it their life effort. And we became, you know, the appreciation for every painting, for every aspect of every painting for the colors. You know, when you look at some of the paintings, you know, again, I'm in, this is the simple part of this. Like you look at Roscoe or you look at, you know, where there's only one or two, it appears that there are just a very, you know, one color painting. And yet in order for them to have created that particular color, the complexity, the combination, or the recipe of, of that is it's, it is genius.

[00:27:03] And knowing what belongs to what. So I think, you know, the frustrations that I-- and I have had many frustrations, of course you'd have to over the course of all these years. But the appreciation I have, I think is what endured and the challenges that were put in front of me opened my eyes, I think, to, to really appreciating every single person who makes the attempt or, or decides that they want to examine, study, become historians of art. It's just a passion beyond a passion for those that do it. And, you know, I guess, yes, I, I feel I have an extraordinary heritage, you know, lineage by being part of a Dragic's world.

[00:27:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's just so cool. And goodness gracious. Yes. I can imagine wanting to rip your hair out in that moment of trying to figure out, oh my gosh, this magic combination. Oh jeez.

[00:28:11] Patricia Karen Gagic: The craziness about it is that it's it's in every single painting that you look at. There's always going to be from, from any-- it does not matter-- there will always be a color that, you know, you think you can just repeat that. And he proved to me, you know, your, until you become a true master, your eyes will trick you.

[00:28:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's powerful. Oh my goodness. Okay. So your, your, background is just amazingly rich and, and just fantastic. And I'm sure your future trajectory is going to be exactly the same, as far as their richness of it. So I'm just curious, what are you up to now and sort of, where do you envision your art going next?

[00:28:57] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, we probably could have another hour conversation. I have this very unique past. I became extremely interested over the course of, you know, the last 30 or 40 years with studying different things. And that includes, oh, everything from physics, from different religions, from Buddhism. Just looking at the iconography of, of different things and I studied at the University of Toronto Applied Mindfulness and Transformative Mindfulness while I was still doing all of this with my art and, and business. And I felt that the mindfulness piece in the meditation was, was really, really important and vital to the methodology of my work. And then I, I decided to create something that I could offer people, sort of like a program, and I'm only doing sort of beta testing right now. I, I've done a few and they've turned out quite lovely.

[00:30:00] It's not really art as healing, but there is a, a refined inspiration. So I basically take people through a two to three hour session where we do a bit of meditation and at the same time, then depending upon the group that I have, I will then tailor it to that. So for example, I did the Can150, which is mostly the female Canadian Olympians and sports, sports women. And I did the "Finding Your Inner Hero" basically. And I took them through a two to three hour session where they all had paint and, you know, we put the layers on the paint and then I, I walked them through questions to inspire them to, to dig deep inside as to how they feel, where there are no mistakes. But I like to think that people don't give themselves permission to experience their own wisdom and that when they do the results are life-changing. So everyone so far who I've done this with has, has really pushed me and encouraged me to, to offer it. So it's the Karmic Art Experiences what I'm calling it.

[00:31:12] And I was, I've been very fortunate also in my life having an opportunity to help people and serve people. And I was recognized by the it's the WXN, the Women's Executive Network in Canada, the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada. It's the organization that I have actually been nominated to and I've won four times. So I've been a three, three time, four time nominated and winner of the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada. And then in 2018, I was inducted into the hall of fame. And when I, when I got that, thank you. When that happened, Sherry Stevens, who was the owner of, of WXN, she said to me, "Patricia, do you think you would do a WXN art experience for us?"

[00:31:55] So I did. So I had, you know, quite a few of the top 100 women in Canada on the, on the Zoom call. And I took them through the Karmic Art Experience, and I cannot even explain how, how deeply profound I recognize that self-care is really needed, especially with women who are in high profile positions. You yourself would know this and that you sometimes work yourself really hard and you don't, you don't stop long enough to actually give yourself permission to, to have a play date with yourself. So by doing the Karmic Art Experience, I'm encouraging people that once they've done it, they, if they want it to continue with my program, which I'll probably create maybe a six week program. But if not that they should still endeavor and push and give themselves that time to find what makes them happy, how they can be happier. And it is as, as complicated as, you know, our minds and our lives can be. It's that complex simplicity that is really needed.

[00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That's that's so cool. Well, and congratulations on that. That is a huge accomplishment and obviously you've super deserve it, but just congratulations on that. Awesome. Yeah. And what a cool real experience. I love, I love what you're doing. I love that you're helping women, especially, but I'm sure people in general, just, yeah, like you said, have that play date, have that self-care that's like you said, it's, it's vital. And so thank you for, for doing that. And I'm excited to see, you know, if that does end up becoming a course or how that sort of plays out in the future, but speaking of that --while I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to see some of your artwork, maybe hear more about this new experience-- is there a way for them to connect with you or to see some of your work?

[00:33:58] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yes, I, I'm very approachable and I always like to give my email out to people because I, I feel that's a communication tool that, you know, sometimes you have, you do have more control over. So patgagic@gmail.com. So patgagic@gmail.com. And then my work is, I'm represented by a couple of galleries. 13th Street Gallery is in St. Catherine's and there's also my website, which is patriciakarengagic.com. And I also have inspiredtoberewired.com. And that talks a little bit, I have a project in Cambodia that I started in 2006, and there's some information on that as well.

[00:34:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you.

[00:34:51] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you.

[00:34:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I, yeah, well, I am just incredibly inspired by your stories and I just think what an amazing, oh my goodness, what an amazing life that you've had so far, and it's just only going to continue to be, I'm sure, wonderful. And I appreciate how much you are, are open and, you know, willing to share with everyone and that. Thank you for that. And thank you also for what you're doing now, because I know that's making a difference in people's lives. And so I think it's really special that you're using a passion and a skill that you have to, to help others. So thank you for that. I commend you for that.

[00:35:31] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you.

[00:35:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with it.

[00:35:37] Patricia Karen Gagic: Okay, sure. I'll try it.

[00:35:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. You'll be great. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:45]Patricia Karen Gagic: Oh, okay. I think art is liberating and it is the, probably the most relevant document of history that exists.

[00:36:01]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay. Love it. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:36:09] Patricia Karen Gagic: I think it's liberation, freedom, total expression, and to help shift the misconceptions of, of reality. And it's an opportunity to interpret whatever it is that you, as a human being are here, are here in your own path to experience. And yeah, it's, it's the artist journey.

[00:36:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or show notes or just context somehow, it's the inspiration. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide context behind it and basically leaves it solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:37:13] Patricia Karen Gagic: Wow. That's a powerful question because that's like chicken and the egg.

[00:37:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed.

[00:37:19] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. I I'm in, I'm in both of those mindsets. So first of all, I, I oftentimes think that a piece of work that I've completed deserves a title because yeah, I want to express and acknowledge the, that moment so I will do it, but I'm also in the, in the family of, it's my expression. I, if I wanted to write a book about something, I should write the book. The art should stand alone. It is its own word document, and it's for the person to choose, see with their eyes and interpret. So again, that's yeah. I said, I'm sorry, I can't give you one or the other. Both.

[00:38:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's completely fair. I love it. Okay. Well, thank you so much again, Patricia, for being here today and just for sharing all of your stories and I I'm just really blown away. I loved listening to everything that you've done, and I'm just so excited for, for this new venture that you're, you know, really embarking on now. And I just think that, you know, you bring so much beauty to the world and I just appreciate it. And I really appreciate you being here today. So thank you so much.

[00:38:41] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you, Lindsey. No, I've, I've loved our, I've loved this so much. It's nice to be able to share, you know, my past, some of that. So thank you for this opportunity. You're great. Thank you.

[00:38:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Aww, thank you. Yes. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and definitely check out Patricia's work, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:11]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:20]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's episode, I welcome Jessie Katz Greenberg! Jessie has had an amazing journey of being a graphic designer, a podcast co-host, an arts and crafts teacher, a freelance artist, and the DIY Content Creator for Jumprope. She shares about how teaching and encouraging others to create has led to a very fulfilling career, and how being open to possibilities has allowed her to experience art in so many different ways. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo of her co-hosted podcast, Craft Hangout.)

Get in touch with Jessie Katz Greenberg: https://www.crafthangout.com/ | https://www.jumprope.com/ | www.instagram.com/jessiekatzgreenberg |

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 62 - Jessie Katz Greenberg

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Jessie Katz Greenberg, who is a craft content creator, podcast cohost and a DIY content director at Jump Rope, which all of those things sound super cool. So altogether, I'm just so thrilled that you're here, Jessie, and can't wait to chat art with you.

[00:02:40] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind starting out by sharing a little bit about your background, sort of what got you into art and crafting and podcasting, and all the things. I'm just so excited to hear about you.

[00:02:58]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Sure. So it is, you know, quite the journey from art to sort of where I am now. So I'll kind of give-- I'll try to give a brief rundown. I have always just been creative and obsessed with crafting and making. I went to art school and fell in love with graphic design and typography there. So that's what I ended up majoring in, and after college worked as a graphic designer, but I really missed, you know, being more hands-on with my art and making things with my hands now that everything I was doing was on the computer. So that really set me off on this journey of just experimenting with my own craft, my own work, and networking within the maker community.

[00:03:41] So I did. I started by doing just a lot of hand lettering illustrations. I really started doing hand drawn Facebook statuses. Like before Instagram was a thing, I would post, I would draw my Facebook status and post a picture of it to Facebook and sort of got into hand lettering illustration that way. So I had the opportunity to show some of my lettering in galleries and in cafes and through that, sort of morphed into --I had two handmade businesses, selling handmade jewelry and selling stationary. I sold online on Etsy, at local boutiques and craft fairs. I was lucky enough to have some fun opportunities through those businesses.

[00:04:20] My jewelry was made out of recycled materials, so I got some cool local magazine write-ups and actually had it featured on The Today Show. And this whole time I was still working full-time as a graphic designer. That was always the constant. And I was just kind of finding all of these other creative outlets along the way. So eventually I decided I needed to kind of run with these creative side businesses full-time so I left a really secure graphic design job in order to freelance full-time. So I could have more time to spend on my stationary business, specifically doing greeting cards and wedding stationary. And even through that, through running my own creative business, I was still outside of that, looking for like this creative community. And that's when I started hosting a craft nights with my friends. The art making part of my creative businesses was really fulfilling, but the actual business side of it, I realized I didn't love.

[00:05:21] And I feel like that was a difficult realization to come to as an artist, like this entrepreneur side of it is so tied to being an artist. And I kind of realized that I didn't, you know, love the business side of it as much. So we ended up moving, going to New York City. I got a job as a packaging graphic designer at a textile company. And this whole time, the constant was always striving to find and be more dedicated in this creative maker community. So I started teaching workshops, a lot of craft workshops, everything from hand lettering to floral monogram wall hangings, to embroidery, to glass etching. I was teaching sometimes three nights a week after work and on weekends.

[00:06:05] And that is what I was loving was sharing my art with others. And that's how-- so through all of this, through really just like pouring myself into this aspect of the creation community that I loved. That's how I ended up meeting Eliza Kapitan, who is the creator and host of Craft Hangout. I guested on that podcast and then ended up joining as a cohost a few years ago. And through that I met Jake, the CEO of Jumprope and, you know, a couple months after meeting him joined Jumprope full-time as their DIY Content Director. So sort of made this major shift from being a graphic designer to now joining a tech startup and being able to be sort of like their liaison from the tech side of the company, to the DIY art craft content creators that are creating on the app. So it was a long journey to end up where I am today, but it was one where I just kept sort of following my passions and following what I liked about crafting and art and landed at this job now that I totally love.

[00:07:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, first of all, I'm so glad you found something that just touches on all the things that you love and are passionate about. I think that just sounds like such a synergistic opportunity, essentially. So very-- like it was hand tailored for you is what it sounds like.

[00:07:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was one of those things where I, I was like, I knew the full-time job I was at wasn't for me anymore, but I didn't know what I wanted. And it was just, just keep doing what you love and something has to show up. It just has to, and luckily it did.

[00:07:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I think that's inspirational also in the sense of, you know, keep doing what, you know, you need to do and keep doing what you're passionate about. And even if it's on the side for a while, you just never know where one opportunity will beget another opportunity if you're just open. So how cool.

[00:08:02] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I've-- this whole time I've just loved especially when I was teaching workshops, I loved connecting with artists like who are on all different levels of their artistic journey. And then now at Jumprope, like that's what I get to do even more so since we're, you know, an, an app specifically for creators sharing their skills and creating content. So it's, it's been really great.

[00:08:25]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Awesome. Well, and I, I was just so struck by, you know... You know, looking back, it might seem like, "Oh, of course this thing led to this thing led to this thing," but of course when you're in it you're, you don't necessarily see how it's all going to eventually get woven together. But I, I really loved how you were talking about, you know, you got to this guest on this podcast and then a couple of years, or a couple, a little while after that, then you've got to, you know, have this opportunity to be co-host and how that meant something else. And it's just such like the perfect example of things coming together because you didn't stop creating, you just created and you've allowed your creativity to kind of evolve.

[00:09:04]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. Yeah. And just sort of followed, like what I, I feel like I spent a lot of time at the beginning, especially when I was starting my businesses, spending a lot of time at the beginning, like thinking about, okay, this is what my mission is, and this is what I want to do with it. And like doing all of this planning before things happened. And then I got into this phase letting things happen organically. And that's when, you know, that ended up being a better process for me. I know for some people, planning is what gets them to where they need to be. But for me, just sort of being in this organic process was what worked better for sure.

[00:09:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that sounds perfect. Well, okay. So definitely some things really popped out at me of your story and one of the biggest things-- oh, my gosh, you were on The Today Show. How cool of an opportunity. Tell me about that.

[00:09:53] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So I know it, and it was so long ago. I almost like, I almost never bring that part up, but it's like, I feel like it's just a fun highlight in this journey. And the thing is like I personally was not on it. Just my jewelry was, and it was part of this Earth Week celebration and I made jewelry out of, most of them recycled plastics, like recycled gift cards and credit cards, and also like disassembling and reassembling some vintage jewelry and things like that. So it ended up being featured on The Today Show as part of this Earth Week thing where they featured, I think, 10 other artists creating, creating art out of repurposed materials. So it was really cool to be in that collection of artists.

[00:10:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, definitely congrats on that. And I'm just curious, are you still doing any of those kinds of things on the side as well? Or do you find that your time is so-- you got a lot going on?

[00:10:51] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So yeah, I realized along the way that creating physical products and selling them was not-- like I had in my head that's like, that's what you do as an artist. You create these physical items and you sell them. And I realized that's not what was super fulfilling to me. So I stopped doing that when I started teaching 'cause that's when I sort of realized that like teaching was what I enjoyed more. Having someone come from their job that they didn't see as creative and then have them come after work to my class and say, "Oh, I'm not going to make anything very creative because I just work in Excel spreadsheets all day." And then having them leave two hours later, having felt fulfilled and creative, that is where I was, you know, feeling more passionate about art and crafting. So I sort of switched from selling products to fostering creativity in others. And that's what I do with my own content creation. Now I still teach workshops. And I share my own content on Instagram and TikTok and all of that and share a lot of craft tutorials. And so that's what I'm doing now is really fostering that creativity in others.

[00:12:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's so cool too. I mean, you, you discovered that teaching is what you really loved and like, like you said, sort of inspiring other people to, to embrace their creativity or to feel like it's, it's okay-- not just okay-- like it's, it's good. I'm wondering if there are any moments when you've been teaching that really stand out as, "Oh my goodness. I got to witness that. That was such a cool moment." Or something like that.

[00:12:34] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Oh, there were a few good ones. So really that one, like that's an actual story of a woman came to my class and was like, "My thing is not going to look good. I just work in Excel all day." And that was like her disclaimer, of like, she can't be creative because she works with spreadsheets. And so to have her at the end of the class, feel like, "Oh my God, look at this thing I made." Like as her instructor felt really awesome. Some other fun moments from classes: I had someone, I was teaching a three week lettering workshop and I had someone at the end of the workshop-- we kind of like work, we start with very beginner skills and then we work towards creating this like final lettering piece. And she created her final piece. And then during the third class, when she was finishing it, she sort of photographed it, posted it on her social media and sold it while we were sitting there in class, like sold her original artwork. And I was like, "Well, that's incredible, but you just did that."

[00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow!

[00:13:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: It was like we-- Right? It was amazing that she went from, you know, beginner hand letterer to now I mean, she could call herself a professional letterer, just sold lettering artwork. Wow, what else? I think it's just the moments like that, that, that stand out. And then obviously the moment, just because it sort of set off this whole creative journey was getting to network with people like Eliza from Craft Hangout, and, you know, getting other opportunities outside of workshops as well was, you know, ended up being great.

[00:14:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you had also mentioned, I think, previous to starting to teach in a more structured way, that you had hosted craft nights, which just sounds like exactly my cup of tea. So I'm curious as to what those used to look like.

[00:14:18] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I'll be real honest. For a while, they were just sort of a facade for having like girls nights and watching The Bachelor. Like we got a bunch of cheese, turned on The Bachelor, and we brought craft projects and I'd say like 50% of the time we crafted and 50% of the time we didn't, but it was just a good time to like get together with people and make something, see what everyone else was making. Sometimes one of us would bring something and like teach the others how to do it, or, you know, teach a new embroidery stitch. Or we would do craft supply swaps and, you know, swap stuff that we had, get rid of our yarn stash and trade with each other. So it was just a good time to foster this creativity, like within our own group of friends and learn from each other. And I, there's something so unique about crafting with people.

[00:15:14] Like whether they're your friends in a, in an environment like that, or whether it's in a workshop where I don't necessarily know the students, but we're all crafting together. Or even if it's sharing a tutorial online and having people respond to it where people are just so open while they're being creative. So in those time's crafting with friends, it was just a great time to like, get into deeper conversation with each other because you kind of just go there when you're meditating, like meditatively crafting, you just kind of get in to these more open spaces. So it was nice to kind of foster deeper friendships with people that way.

[00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I was chuckling when you were talking about it being sort of a facade for girls nights, but I feel like that's the case with other things too, like book club. I mean, let's be real. That's, it's a fun thing. I love it, but I mean, the, the food and drinks don't hurt anything.

[00:16:12] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was like, people won't make fun of us for wanting to watch The Bachelor every week if we just say it's a craft night.

[00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I love it. I love it. Well, like you said, how, how cool, because it fostered conversations that, you know, it's not like you might never have had, but to be able to have them on a more regular basis and keep up with each other's lives. I mean, that's, that's pretty special to get to do that, so, yeah.

[00:16:37] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just think, I mean, I'm always amazed how crafting does that to, like I said, even perfect strangers. Like I was teaching a class once and one of my students told our class that she was pregnant before she had told like half of her family. And it's just cause you're in this like mode and you feel close to people and it's, it just happens. And I just think that's a beautiful thing about making art and crafting with people.

[00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I can relate to that a little bit. I was teaching dance classes and when I got engaged, it was, it was like, it was so exciting. I was, I was just thrilled, over the moon, of course. And so, so the next day when I was teaching the students, finally, like, I just, I couldn't help it. Right? I had told, I had told my family by then, but I hadn't, we hadn't like officially announced it. And I was just like, "Guys." Like, you just can't contain it. You know? And that small class environment and stuff, it was, yeah, it was really special. They were awesome. They were happy for me, but they were cracking up because, yeah, I was just over the top. Oh, goodness. Well, that is, that sounds lovely. So do you still do craft nights at all or is it kind of a thing that maybe eventually you can resurrect after all this crazy goes away?

[00:17:57] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, we've done some virtual craft nights. I, so since I, it was several years ago when I started doing them with that group of friends and I since then moved to New York City. I was not living far outside the city. Before I was living in like, you know, maybe half hour, 45 minutes outside the city, but it's very different when you move into New York and then you don't have a car and you can't get out there all the time. So and also just with then turning to teaching crafts and like basically professionally having craft nights, I didn't have as much time to do these other craft nights, but over the last year we have resurrected them with some Zoom craft nights we did. Let's see. I think we all forced our husbands to do a, to do, like a paint night together and like Bob Ross painting paint along. And so we've been doing some, some stuff like that, but not as, not weekly, like we used to.

[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's still fun. I'm glad you get to, to keep up on it a little bit. Well, yeah. Yeah. I know, I know this question is going to probably on some level be a little bit impossible to answer, but I'm just curious. Do you have a favorite craft? Like something that you just gravitate towards if you're just like, "I just need some art right now."

[00:19:17]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, it really changes a lot, it goes back and forth between a couple specific things. So one is definitely hand lettering just because I, I still love topography as much as I did when I studied it in school for graphic design. I just didn't like being stuck on the computer all the time. So hand lettering is definitely one of those things, and when I like to be a little bit more free and less planned, it's usually embroidery or any type of upcycling. So like, you know, turning cardboard into something or repurposing something around the apartment, anything like that.

[00:19:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. Well, obviously, you know, you've-- like we talked about at the beginning, you've kind of really allowed opportunities into your life and not shut them down as like, "Well, I had one vision and that's not the vision, so I'm not going for it." And I think that there's, that that's such a great skill to have or mindset to have. And so I'm kind of curious, do you have advice for somebody who might be interested in starting on the path to crafting, or to be an artist, but is maybe a little hesitant or nervous or anything like that?

[00:20:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. I, and I feel like this is the advice everyone gives, but I like-- honestly, just start. Like, don't think that you have to do all of this planning ahead of time, just start. And this is even the same advice like I give at work at Jumprope to creators who are nervous about starting video. It's the same thing. It's just start creating video content because the thing is, you are not going to find out what you love and what fits your skill set and what you need. Like, you're not going to find this out until you just start making. So the advice is just start and kind of learn from your own process. Learn what is fulfilling. You learn the aspects that aren't and then kind of develop from there.

[00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. I really liked that and yes, you're completely right. I think diving in, just, just doing something. I think even if you're just start by writing a sentence, if you want to be an author or, you know, paint one little bird or something if you want to be a fine artist. You know, it's just, it's, it's being courageous enough to, to take that first step, which is-- it's challenging. I mean, I, yeah, but who knows where those adventures will lead to.

[00:21:42] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And especially now, I feel like it's so challenging to take those first steps because everybody has this idea that things have to be perfect. And like, honestly, because of social media, people think that, especially for visual art, if they're going to create something, it has to be perfect so they can post it, and it looks great next to all of these other professional artists and crafters posting stuff on social media. And the reality is your first one is not going to be perfect. So once you just take away that fear of the first time not being perfect, then everything can flow a little bit.

[00:22:17] Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. And giving yourself grace too. No beginner is perfect on day one. I mean, and, and even as you, you know, you journey through being an artist and becoming better and better. There are still ebbs and flows. I mean, there are some days you're like, "Wow, I have zero inspiration and apparently can't draw" or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And that's true. It's just ebbs and flows in the growth process. So.

[00:22:48] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.

[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, tell me a little bit more, if you don't mind, about this dream job that you have. That sounds super cool. And obviously you're helping creatives and I'm very curious, because I know, you know, some of our listeners are crafters and creatives and would be interested potentially in what you all have to offer.

[00:23:08] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Awesome. So Jumprope is an app. It's a platform to learn how to do anything. So we make it super easy for creators to share helpful DIYs, art tutorials, even music lessons, recipes, fitness routines, whatever it is you'd like to. You can share your skills on Jumprope. So you're creating these step-by-step videos. They live on the Jumprope platform. Once you publish them, it's a public platform and it's a free app. And then you can also download those videos to share them across all of your other platforms. So the app automatically formats say horizontal version that you can put on your YouTube channel and a vertical version you can put on IGTV, and a sped up vertical version you can use on TikTok, and several versions you can use on Pinterest to drive traffic to your Etsy shop or your blog or whatever it is. So we really try and make it super easy for creators to create video, even if you've never done it before, and then share it to all of the platforms, all the places you have to be.

[00:24:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds amazing. What a great resource. Awesome. Well, yeah. If, if anyone wants to kind of check more into that, do you have a good way for them to do that?

[00:24:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, absolutely. So Jumprope is available in the Apple App store and the Google Play store. So we're available on iPhone and Android. And we can also, once you actually, you can also just visit, jumprope.com and view the content there as well to kind of get a feel of it. And then if you are getting started in the app, if you're downloading the app now while you're listening, and want some tutorials to get started, you'll see there's a Jumprope tips section in the app, and we've created a ton of tutorials to help get started, share your content. We give you best practices, mistakes to avoid, all of that stuff that you need to know to get started on a new platform.

[00:25:12] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. Yeah. Especially if, if the content creator isn't particularly necessarily comfortable with video just yet or that kind of thing, that's, that's very helpful. I'm glad you guys do that.

[00:25:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And we actually, like, we know that video is such a barrier for people. So the way that you create on Jumprope, it's actually, it's sort of more similar, honestly, to creating an Instagram story than it is to creating a long form video. It, the platform has all this step-by-step content that you can tap through at your own pace. So you're creating like one card at a time in your tutorial instead of creating this long form video. Even if you're brand new to video, you can actually just put in like process photos of your art process or your craft process and create Jumprope content just from photos to get started.

[00:26:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, even better. Very cool. Well, yeah, definitely I would encourage anyone who's interested in taking advantage of an incredible platform to go and check out Jumprope and see if it might be a good fit for you, because that sounds exactly like a fantastic way to grow your business and your following. So I definitely encourage anyone who's interested to definitely do that.

[00:26:25] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. And even I do want to say too, like as artists, 'cause this is something that I feel like super, you know, encouraged by as a creator myself, and working on this side of Jumprope, like seeing the type of content that succeeds on this platform just makes me so happy because it does not matter if you have an existing large audience, which I know for people trying to get started, like for, for crafters, especially in artists and content creators, trying to get started on Instagram or TikTok-- there's all of this pressure on what size your following is and since Jumprope is a newer platform, it is not about the size of your following. It is not about the size of your audience. It's really about if your content is valuable. So is your content helpful? Is it detailed so people can follow along? Are you teaching something interesting? Like that's the content that's going to really succeed on Jumprope, whether or not you have a following anywhere else. So it's really encouraging for me to see creators, all different status, like all different stages in their career, sort of succeed on Jumprope just because their content is just plain good.

[00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah, no, that is fantastic. And oh, very cool. Yeah, I'm excited to go check it out myself as well, so awesome. Well, and yeah, and so you also co-host this podcast, so yeah. Tell us a little bit, maybe more about the podcast and, and what y'all do.

[00:27:51]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So Craft Hangout is --we call it an inspiration destination podcast. So it actually, you know, fits, I think seamlessly right in with the style of podcast that you have, Lindsey. We at Craft Hangout, we are three co-hosts. So Eliza is the creator and host and then myself and Leeloo Thatcher are the co-hosts and we interview a different guest or guests each week and really try and tell their story. And, you know, narrow it down to some really interesting takeaways for our audience as well. So if you are a professional crafter, blogger, craft hobbyist, entrepreneur, there will be some sort of takeaways for you from, from each episode.

[00:28:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, very cool. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Yeah. And then and how can we listen to that? Is it sort of available everywhere podcasts are?

[00:28:47] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yes, it is. We are also, we also release through Podbean and, you know, you can find us at just crafthangout.com or we're available wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:28:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, this has been very inspirational. I just loved hearing all your stories and yeah, I'm just always so interested in how opportunities can create other opportunities when you're open. And so I just think your, your life story so far has been such a perfect example of that in your openness and your willingness to, to explore so many different styles of creativity even. So awesome. Thank you for that. I, that was great. And I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with it.

[00:29:30] Jessie Katz Greenberg: I'm ready for it.

[00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:29:37]Jessie Katz Greenberg: So my answer is very simple and I just feel art is creative expression, and I want to be really clear in saying that it can be any creative expression. Crafting is art. Obviously, as you know, like dancing performance is art. Whether you are creating art in your bedroom or a professional studio, if this art ends up in the trash or hangs in a gallery, it's your creative expression and it's art.

[00:30:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:30:13]Jessie Katz Greenberg: This one is hard. I think that it's just to share your perspective, whatever it is. And, and again, I mean, you'll, this might be very obvious from the way I've answered, I'm answering these questions, but I just feel like, you know, art is for everyone. So I just think the most important role is to share your perspective. And if that perspective is, you know, something deep that people have to think about, or if you're making an important political commentary or you're, you know, making things because it's cute and your perspective as you want to cheer people up and make them happy. And that's the point of it then. All of that is valid. So I think it's just sharing your perspective, whatever that is.

[00:30:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, with inclusive and artists putting their work out into the world and providing some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration, basically just having a little bit of background for the viewer. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will.

[00:31:32]Jessie Katz Greenberg: I definitely feel like there are, there's a place for both. As a consumer of art, there are times when I enjoy both of these and obviously like having, having gone to art school, I totally appreciate the exclusive type of art, I think, if we're talking about it in these terms, but I personally lean more towards inclusive. I, especially, I think that maybe that just comes too from like me being so drawn to crafts and handicrafts and like folk art type of work is, it's just so tied to the story behind it that I, I like having that context. And even like, if I'm thinking about, you know, crafty artsy content creators that I follow or that we have creating on Jumprope. Like I, like when they share a little bit of a personal story about something, whether it's why they created this piece of art, or they're creating it to celebrate a season or entertain their kids or simplify something where they're an expert. So it's more accessible for beginners. Like I just like hearing the story behind it. So I think I lean a little bit more inclusive.

[00:32:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And especially because of the way you were talking about how much you found that you enjoy sharing now. Teaching, I would say, is a little bit different, but it's still, that's sort of your nature it sounds like, is to, to share and provide, you know, some background.

[00:33:03] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.

[00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly.

[00:33:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love it. Well. Okay, great. And I know how we can get in touch with the podcast or kind of follow the podcast and the app. Is there any other way that we can get in contact with you if we want to learn more, just want to follow your journey. Is there a way for us to do that?

[00:33:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I share all of my work on, on Jumprope, obviously, and on Instagram and some on TikTok and my username across all of these platforms is Jessie Katz Greenberg, all one word.

[00:33:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And I'll definitely be posting links to that too. So that if you're curious, you can just go to the show notes and easily click on all of that. Well, awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here today, Jessie. I really appreciate you. I love your stories. And I really appreciate how inspiring you are and how much you inspire others to be creative and encourage that, you know, even if it's just starting on the smallest little step, you know, you're right there supporting that. So that's special. And what you bring to the world adds a lot of value and beauty. So thank you. And thanks for being here.

[00:34:17] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much. This was awesome. I loved getting a chance to talk to you and kind of dig deeper in those, into those questions of what art is. And it was just really a great time. So thank you so much.

[00:34:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you also so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:34:43]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:34:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

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In today's episode, I welcome Bryan Colley! Bryan is a playwright and director, and is premiering his latest work about the 19th amendment, "On Account of Sex," at this year's Kansas City Fringe Festival, running July 18th through August 1st. Learn about his unique approach to naming his theater companies, his writing process, and how he keeps his productions lean and impactful. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is a cut-out version of his Fringe show's promotional image.)

Watch Bryan Colley's KC Fringe Festival Show, "On Account of Sex": https://kcfringe.org/2021-shows/on-account-of-sex/

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 61 - Bryan Colley

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Bryan Colley. He is a playwright and producer, and I actually had the opportunity to get to know him just, just a little bit, but through Kansas City Fringe Festival. That's sort of where we initially got connected. And I am just so delighted. Bryan has such a rich background, and has been involved in the Fringe Festival and as a playwright for years and years, and just brings so much just interesting experience to the table today. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, Bryan.

[00:02:54] Bryan Colley: Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in art in general, writing specifically and, and take it from there, if you don't mind.

[00:03:09]Bryan Colley: Okay. I'm not sure how far you want to go back. But I think I've wanted to be a writer since I was a teenager or at least to do something creative. I do art as well. I went to The Art Institute for a year. My college years were kind of scattered, trying to figure out where I wanted to be, because I didn't know if I wanted to do art or if I wanted to make movies. And somehow I ended up doing theater and didn't think I wanted to write plays until I wrote my first play. And it was such a good experience that I said, "Hey, this is something I can do." So after college, I started writing plays and also spent a long time writing screenplays. I'm one of the founding members of the Kansas City Screenwriters that's still meeting. I think we started in 1992 and we're still meeting today, just a very small group of people who wanna write screenplays. And I haven't really written a screenplay in a long time, but I did spend a long time writing them before Fringe came along, and then I kind of committed myself to writing plays after that, just at, at the very minimum, at least doing one show a year. Every year for Fringe was a goal, which I have done every year since 2008.

[00:04:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so I know that Fringe probably helped narrow down your trajectory, but I-- it seems like you, how should we say ,you got "volunteered" into a broader role with Fringe. And so, your role kind of has expanded from not only being on the producing side, but then also being on the whole administrative/ marketing genius side. Is that correct?

[00:04:57] Bryan Colley: That is correct. My wife, Tara, and I went to Fringe its first year and went and saw the shows there and came away from it thinking, "Hey, we can do this." And so the next year we wrote our first show for the Fringe, which was called "Jesus Christ, King of Comedy." And it was supposed to be a sketch show basically around a theme of, of basically Jesus is an entertainer and it's actually more about showbiz life than it is about the Bible or anything. But it was supposed to be like a group show. We had invited a whole bunch of people we knew to write a sketch and a one guy wrote a sketch about Jesus's birthday, where Joseph is there trying to have a happy birthday with, with a young Jesus, and then God shows up and kind of steals all the thunder, as gods will do. And, and then, so that gave us the idea to make the show about Joseph, as this put-upon father, who's raising this kid that isn't his and kind of life the life of Joseph, which we never get to see.

[00:06:06] So we took all these different sketches and kind of built a story out of it. And that was our very first Fringe show. But I'm also a graphic designer and had been doing graphic graphic design work. And I was friends with Cheryl Kimmi who runs the Fringe and, I guess I was complaining a lot about their printed program, which was basically just an Excel Sheet dumped onto a piece of paper for people to try to figure out what show they wanted to go see. And so I offered to help the next year after that, to do their program for them and have been doing it ever since. I've been at it every year, honing it down and trying to get better and better programs so that people can find the shows they want to go. And so, and that led to other administrative roles with Fringe. I basically volunteer and help out what they need to do and work behind the scenes that way.

[00:06:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And every fringe producer who comes through Kansas City is super grateful to have Bryan because Bryan, you are very good at articulating exactly what helps to capture someone's attention. If you're not familiar with the Fringe Festival, anyone who's listening, there are hundreds of shows to choose from every year traditionally. And so Bryan is always really good at helping producers who might not have the graphic design or writing background to sort of say, "Hey, here are some best practices to get people's attention and, you know, do this, don't do this." So anyway, we're all super thankful to have Bryan on board, to say that as a blanket statement, because it is true. So thank you for taking a spreadsheet and making it beautiful. That's such a great story. Go ahead.

[00:07:49]Bryan Colley: What happens is Tara and I-- usually most of the shows we've done at Fringe Tara and I write together, and so after the playwriting is done, she will, she directs all the plays. So she would go off with the actors and she will direct a play. So I'm, as a playwright, I've got nothing left to do. So I put a lot of my attention to marketing. So I apply my graphic design skills and I do the marketing. And I guess I had a few successful shows, so Fringe thought I was some kind of a marketing guru. So they kind of have me work with marketing for Fringe as well and help all the other producers market their show. And I help as much as I can, so.

[00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes and we appreciate it. So definitely. And yeah, I love the story especially of your first show and how that came together. And that sounds so fascinating to come from a perspective that, like you said, we don't get to hear. So I like the imagination behind that. And so that was 2008? Or is that when you first saw the Fringe.

[00:08:54] Bryan Colley: No, that was 2008 was our first show.

[00:08:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then after that, you've literally produced at least one per year. Do you ever run out of ideas? I mean, obviously you don't, but how does that writing process work for you?

[00:09:06]Bryan Colley: It varies, of course, with each show. Sometimes we plan way ahead and have ideas going in to the show. We usually don't start talking about the next year's Fringe until after, you know, until that that show is done. And then we start talking about, what are we going to do next year? And so it usually takes about a year to write a show. Sometimes we'll have an idea in advance, but usually not. So it's just kind of looking for that thing that we have not done before, is basically looking for an idea or a concept or a style or something that we haven't done yet, because it's really easy to just... Well, well, you might notice is most theater companies are a company and they have a name and they produce shows and there's some at Fringe, theater companies that come back every year and produce shows

[00:09:54]But you'll notice with our shows practically every year, it's a different theater company name that we use on the idea that once you established a theater company as a name, you're pretty much locking yourself into doing a certain kind of show. So this theater company will do this kind of show and you know what to expect from them. And we didn't want that. We didn't want to be a theater company and we didn't want to be locked down into saying, this is what we do. We wanted to... actually people not know what's going to come next and not know what to expect. And so we changed. We make up a theater company every year and this theater company we make up would produce that kind of show.

[00:10:35]But it's been interesting because sometimes we will go back and reuse the theater company name, like for our show this year. Our second show we did at Fringe was called The Lingerie Shop, which was sort of like this kind of feminist fantasy kind of thing, comedy, and the theater company we, we used was called the Fourth Wave Theater, which is like a feminist reference and, and that was all well and good, but now we're doing a new show that also has this kind of feminist theme. So we're using the Fourth Wave Theater Company has come back and is producing their second show. So that's kind of how it was. And then on years where we don't know or where, what we're planning to do falls through, and we have to do something else, then we call it Plan B Production.

[00:11:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Perfect.

[00:11:28] Bryan Colley: And it's happened twice, I think. Yeah. It's twice that we've had to fall back on the Plan B Productions.

[00:11:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's brilliant.

[00:11:36] Bryan Colley: Sometimes things don't work out.

[00:11:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed, especially in the art world, especially with live theater. Yup. Well, that's awesome. I, I don't think I realized that, but that makes more sense, 'cause I'll, you know-- once you start participating in Fringe shows or the festivals long enough, then you know, you sort of start to get to know each other. And it's really fun. There's like a lot of comradery with Fringe and, and it makes so much more sense that you're under a different title every time. 'Cause there would be times where I'd be like, "Yeah, which one is his this year?" And that makes sense. It's because you use different theater companies. That's funny. I love it. And that's smart! 'Cause like you said, it doesn't tie you down to anyone genre or topic or style. Like I just, yeah. Interesting. I like that approach.

[00:12:26] Bryan Colley: I mean the most common thing we have in our shows is that we wrote, wrote them, but there've been two shows that we didn't write that we've done. So even that doesn't hold true, and I guess you could say Tara directs them all, except the one we did last year where she was the star. So we had other directors.

[00:12:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. She has a background obviously in directing and acting as well. Did you guys meet through theater or through different means?

[00:12:54]Bryan Colley: Yeah. After college I started working with the Gorilla Theater, and basically I got out of college. I was looking for stuff to do. One of my other college friends was doing Gorilla Theater and invited me in and I just started doing it, whatever they needed to be done. A lot of it was sound design or running the sound, soundboard. They didn't have anyone to do that. And eventually it was like, well, we need to market our shows better. So I started doing marketing. I eventually ended up on the Board of Directors and doing like the financial stuff and writing a grant. And basically it was just, this is what they need. So I'll step in and help out. But anyway, one of the last Gorilla Theater shows I did was directed by Tara. And, and we'd met on a Gorilla Theater show right before, or maybe it wasn't Gorilla.

[00:13:42] We met. She'd done some Gorilla shows. She did some other shows. We met back in the nineties doing theater. And then we, but she was just an actress then, and I kind of pushed her into her directing in going into Fringe as a director. And partly because she wasn't happy with how theater was done where she wants more of a process kind of thing, where she wants to work with the actors more. And she never got that as an actor. It was always just kind of like, "here's your blocking, you know, your lines, let's do a show" kind of thing, and there's not really a process to it. So she brings that process when she does the Fringe shows. I suppose we probably have more rehearsals than normal, but, but we always give actors a lot of input into the final process.

[00:14:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, that's nice. I think it's nice 'cause it sounds like it's much more up her alley, much more her style of interacting and producing these plays. So that's, that's great. I mean, that's such the, the nice benefit about being able to have your own productions that you produce and, you know, she's working with you as the writer. So, you know, if there are any differences in interpretation, y'all can work that out. And I mean, that sounds like a pretty good, good partnership right there.

[00:15:00]Bryan Colley: Yeah. That's what I mean. I'm, I'm more open probably than anyone to changing the script and improving it and doing whatever. And because she's a co-writer, she feels complete freedom to just change whatever she wants to change. She doesn't have to even ask me if it's a good idea. So, yeah, it helps that way if you want to do a process, if you want to have more of a process in developing a show. Like that it helps to have the playwright there and to be able to just change whatever you want.

[00:15:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. Well, and then, so I know that you guys have a show that you're obviously producing for this year's Fringe Festival, how are you at the filming stage of it yet? Or are you guys still kind of rehearsing and getting, getting it up to where it's ready to film? Where are you in that whole process? And maybe just a little bit about your show-- a little teaser.

[00:15:56] Bryan Colley: A little teaser... it's already recorded. It's actually the show we wrote for last year's Fringe before COVID happened. And we were all ready to produce it. It's called "On Account of Sex" and it's about the, the long process to get, to pass the 19th amendment, where the women won the right to vote, and in 1920. And of course, 2020 was the hundred year anniversary of the amendment. And so that's kind of why we plan to do the show for 2020. And it's the only time we've ever written a show that was timely in any way. And so of course, all of our plans went awry with COVID and we weren't able to produce the show. We were just getting to the point of starting rehearsals when, when COVID happened and we decided we didn't want to do the show in any kind of virtual way, any kind of like a Zoom kind of thing. So we just said, "Well, we'll do it next year."

[00:16:56] And now here we are a year later, and we're still not having a live Fringe, so we still aren't able to do the show. But back in August on the anniversary of the 19th amendment, we did a, like a reading of the play using Zoom. And so we just had a one night only, this is the anniversary, so we're going to do and we put together a reading of the show. And so we still have that recording and we're going to use that for our show for Fringe next year, or this year. And then hopefully next year we can actually produce the show.

[00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely miss in-person theater. I'm so grateful that there are ways to adapt to the times, but yes, I, I miss I miss in-person theater. Well, that shows sounds fantastic. I can't wait to watch it. I'm obviously super interested in that subject. And I just think that it's such a great thing that you're addressing and talking about. So that's, that's awesome. Thank you for doing that. And typically find out ticket links and things like that what, early July? I'm trying to remember.

[00:18:04] Bryan Colley: I think tickets go on sale July 1st.

[00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay, perfect. So yes. So Brian, if there's people who want to watch the show and, and/ or connect with you, is there a good way for them to be on the lookout for that?

[00:18:17]Bryan Colley: They should just go to kcfringe.org and they can sign up for the mailing list and be informed of everything that's going on.

[00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. And then your theater company this year, plus the title just one more time. So we're, we're squared away, ready to watch it.

[00:18:34] Bryan Colley: Right. Our show is called "On Account of Sex" and the theater company is Fourth Wave Theater.

[00:18:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes, we'll definitely be on the lookout for that. Thankfully with the virtual format, now it's so accessible, so you don't even have to be local to Kansas City anymore. You can literally watch this from the comfort of your home anywhere. So yeah, definitely be able to look out for that. Bryan, I'm curious, you know, you've kind of led a very artistic life with your different ventures. And I'm, I'm curious if you have any advice for someone who might be interested in doing something maybe a little bit on the side. I mean, you have your graphic design as well, but maybe for somebody who is thinking about producing a show at some point, but just hesitant. What advice would you have for somebody like you?

[00:19:21]Bryan Colley: I would say you just have to go there. Don't don't hesitate to go and make a fool of yourself. When we did the Jesus Christ, our motto was "forgive us for, we know not what we do." So and that model still applies to everything we do, because we always try to do, we try to do stuff that we don't know what we're doing. We, we try to do something we haven't done before. So almost every show is like, "Well, I don't, I don't know what we're doing this time, but we're doing it." And whether, you know, 'cause we have done musicals, we have done an opera, we have done a variety of different shows. We did a show in a planetarium. So every time it's, it's a new experience for us. So we're learning every time and it's, and it's basically like doing it all over for the first time.

[00:20:07]Fringe is great for that. I mean, that's the best thing about Fringe is anybody can just go in and do something and, and not only is it a welcome environment for that, the, the audience is welcoming to that too. They're not, they're not paying $50, $60 tickets and expecting a big professional show. They know what they're getting into. They're very forgiving of mistakes. They know the format, they know what Fringe is and, and they know it's experimental and a lot of people doing it for the first time. So it's just kind of, that's it just a place to go and do something, do whatever, whatever, whatever you fancy and, and, and the, that it's, it's wide open to whatever you want to do. It's like any, any crazy idea will, will fly there. So.

[00:21:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yes. Love it. Yep. Just go do it. I like it. And I, I do agree. I think Fringe is one of the the best outlets that I've found. And it's, it's not very cost-prohibitive to produce a show through Fringe too. And I know a lot of times that's a concern when you're first starting out. So yeah. Fringe is a great connection. There are Fringes literally all across the world, so definitely try to find whatever's local to you and see what the process is like, because I think you'll find it a lot-- I mean, it's a lot of work-- but it's a lot more accessible than you think it is. So.

[00:21:36] Bryan Colley: And the hardest part, I think, for people doing new-- for people just getting out there for the first time, especially if you're producing something for the first time, the hardest part is finding an audience and finding people to come see your show, because nobody knows who you are and you don't have this loyal following. So that's another thing Fringe is great for because there's already an audience there. There's people going to shows and looking for something to go see. So it's a lot easier just to find an audience and get people to see your show.

[00:22:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are moments that stand out to you, either witnessing someone watch your art, or you participating in someone else's art, but that just sort of stand out as this moment that mattered. And I'm just curious what that might look like for you if you have any examples that come to mind.

[00:22:27]Bryan Colley: Oh, well, there's probably a lot of those moments. I mean, I've, I've seen a lot of shows that have blown me away and just really impressed me. And they're not always the biggest, the best. In fact, they're very rarely the big, biggest, and best show. It's usually the little scrappy productions and kind of stuff you have to seek out that have really impressed me. It was just creativity and, and theatricality and kind of stuff because they don't have, you know, a full staff and a full shop and can build sets and do all the traditional stagecraft. They have to be creative and come up with different ways to do things. So there's been a lot of stuff over the years that's really blown me away and I try to incorporate. You know, as a playwright, you, you typically think of the playwright is like, well, they have these words and they write the dialogue. And, but as a playwright, you have a lot more tools available to you to do that because you can say, "I want this character to dance. I want this, I want there to be music here. I want, you know, this should be poetry."

[00:23:36] You have all the theatrical tools at your disposal that you can pull in and use in your play. So, so I try to be aware of that. If I want to use mime, if I want to use masks, if I want to do this or that you, you want to be aware of what's out there and be able to use, utilize all of that and make something that's theatrical. You don't need a huge budget to produce theater. You just need to be creative about how you approach it so that you can, you can tack tackle big subjects. You know, I keep telling myself someday, I'm going to write a play that requires a set. And it hasn't happened yet. So, you know, you just, you find other ways to do things when you're, when you're-- and, and audiences, I think audiences like that. I think, I think there have been people that reacted to our shows and it just like, they, they liked the creative approach and, and I know some of the shows, a few of the shows I think have reached a higher level, what you typically expect from a Fringe. So I wouldn't say all of them do, but I think a couple of them have.

[00:24:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I like what you're saying about the sets. And I think that that is such a, an interesting dynamic of, you know, like, you'll go and see a Broadway production or like a Cirque du Soleil show or something like that. And the sets are integral to the choreography and, and all of it, and it's amazing. Like, it, it blows you away just because you think, "Oh my gosh, the creativity in that." But then, like you said, you'll go this local theater company or a dance company or whatever, and it's kind of art speaking for itself and doesn't have all the glitz behind it. And sometimes that's really impactful just that way. 'Cause you're, you're not necessarily distracted by the sets or the props or things like that. You're really kind of more focused on the art itself and that's where some of that brilliance can shine through. So I actually like your, you know, your challenge for yourself of "how do I create this and not use sets? How can I be creative and think about this in a different way? And what would that look like if I do that?" So kudos to you. That's awesome.

[00:25:46]Bryan Colley: Well, yeah. I mean, it's partly because, I mean, my plays are not getting produced by big theaters, so I don't have that experience, you know, to draw from. But, you know, I always, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking, how could this, how can this be produced as cheaply as possible? I'm not writing something that requires a huge budget, you know?

[00:26:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yep, absolutely.

[00:26:13]Bryan Colley: My probably worst sin is, is-- it's hard. I find it hard to write anything with fewer than five actors. So it always seems to end up at about five actors or so, five or more. So, you know, if you really want to write cheap theater, you can't have that many actors, you know, and especially if you're doing Fringe shows and there's artists out there who are professional, and this is all they do is Fringe and they travel around the country or around the world and do, do their Fringe shows. And usually these shows are one or two people, you know, because they have to be able to travel and travel cheaply, you know, and be able to produce it as cheaply as possible. So, so people have always told us we should take our shows to other Fringe festivals, but logistically it's just really hard when you have five actors who all have their own schedules and trying to pack a show up and, yeah, it's just makes it really tough.

[00:27:12]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I can, I can relate to that. It's, it is challenging when you have a little bit of a bigger group of people and you're like, "Yes, we're going to travel." And then you think about all the logistics and you're like, "Well, maybe not, maybe not right now." But yeah, no, that is that's really cool. I really like learning more about your process. It was so interesting to hear about, you know, the fact that you use different theater companies and why, and you know, your stance on all of the different things. So thank you for sharing all of that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:27:48] Bryan Colley: Okay. Three questions.

[00:27:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Three questions. Okay. So the first is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:27:58]Bryan Colley: Okay, well, I think art, in the grand scheme, art is, is how we communicate. It's, it's the most advanced form of communication. I mean, there's the obvious, you know, language-- you write a book and, and use words, and that's the obvious communication. But, and, and that works great if someone can speak that language, but not everyone does. And art is a way you can communicate that goes beyond language. And, and even as a playwright, of course I'm using words, but, but theater as a, as a way of communicating, it's, it's, it's, it's not just using words to tell a story. It's, it's putting, putting a scene on stage and communicating that experience. So you can communicate the experience, you can communicate emotions. I mean visual art is the way to communicate, you know, how do I describe the color blue? Well, I can, I can do a lot of words during it to tell you what blue is and never really explain it, but I can show you the color of blue and I can do, you know, a painting that shows you something you haven't seen before and communicates new ideas and thoughts and experiences. And I think that's kind of what art is all about and what, you know, it's what brings us together, humanity together, more than anything else.

[00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:37]Bryan Colley: Well, that's a, that's a tricky question. I mean, I think the role of the artist is to, to offer ideas to the world and hopefully they can offer an idea. No one's thought of before. And of course, you know, everyone is born ignorant, so everyone experiences new ideas all the time in the, in the course of their life. It's not like there's this one set of ideas everybody knows. Everyone has a different experience. So, so everyone has a way to experience art and some people gain something from it and other people don't because maybe they've already experienced that or, or they don't understand it, you know? So, so you need a wide field of art out there because there's just different art for each person.

[00:30:23]So but you know, it's, you go through life learning things, you get an education, you read books, you, you know, I'm a media junkie. I watch films and I listen to music, you know, it's consume, consume, consume. And I think at some point you want to contribute to that or you want to give back and it's like, well, I've learned all this for what reason? It's like, so that I can take my experience and my knowledge and offer my ideas or my observations on that. So that's where art comes into play, I think. And I think it's something everyone can participate in. It's not just for professionals. Everyone can be an artist and offer something to the world.

[00:31:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's title, show notes, the inspiration, just something to give the viewer a little bit of context as to what was going on in the artist's mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide the context. And so it's left solely to the viewer to decide what they will.

[00:31:47]Bryan Colley: Well, I think it depends on the art, I think, but I generally think exclusive. I think art should stand on its own and speak for itself and not require context. But as I just said, everyone has a different experience. So if you don't provide context, somebody may not understand it or may not be interested, but that's fine because you're, you know, art's, art's not for everyone. It's for those who need it and what you're offering somebody out there might need and might react to. And that's what you're going for. But so, but I think the art should stand on its own, but I see no problem with providing context, if you want. And some things are better with context and some, some the context doesn't matter, but if you provide the context, it's only for those people who are really wanting that context, or really want to know more. I don't think it should be a prerequisite. I think people should experience the art and say, "Wow, that's really interesting. I want to know more." And then go after the context. I mean, that's how I approach it anyway. It's just like, I find something that interests me and then I want to know more about it and do the research. But, but if I do the research first, it just kind of...

[00:33:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it impacts the way you view it, for sure, no matter what. I mean, it couldn't not, there's your double negative for the day. Yeah. And I, yeah, that makes complete sense to me, the way that you were talking about it. I'm curious, when you produce your plays, do you guys provide any sort of program or is it, or, or if it's a program, is that just sort of like, Lisa was played by so-and-so and Daniel was played-- you know what I mean? Is it, do you provide context when you do stuff or not?

[00:33:32] Bryan Colley: We always do a program, of course, ' cause actors love to have their bios and like to think and sometimes the program is more fun than others. I wouldn't say they really provide context. And I know when we did the opera, we provided the libretto so people could read what was being sung because, you know, it can be hard to follow. Not that they could read during the show, cause it was dark in the theater anyway, but at least they can go out afterwards and read what they were singing if they want to. So yeah, it depends on the show, what, what we think the show needs. Sometimes it needs more. I know Tara has a real disdain for director's notes. So we don't really do that. We might provide just some background, but mostly we just put the actors' bios in and maybe add some fun stuff if we can think of it. So.

[00:34:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's totally great. And, and like you said, it's, it's completely up to each individual artist. So again, no wrong answer. It's just really interesting to me to hear different people's approaches and their reasoning behind it 'cause I think, you know, it's, it is subjective to the artist. It's subjective to the art itself. And so I just, I'm always just fascinated by, by what people say about that. So great answer. I loved it. Yeah. Well, thank you again, so very much for being here today, Bryan. I really, really appreciate it. And I do highly encourage anyone who is interested in Bryan's work to definitely check out this year's Fringe Festival. Again, tickets are supposed to go live in-- we'll just say early July, just in case anything, but just keep your eyes open for that kcfringe.org. And then yeah, definitely take a look at that. Well, thanks again, Brian, that was so much fun to chat with you today. I'm looking forward to seeing this production, of course. And I appreciate you. Thanks.

[00:35:23] Bryan Colley: I guess we should mention that the Fringe Festival itself will be July 18th through August 1st. Those are the actual dates you can actually watch the show.

[00:35:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you for that. Yes. Yes, exactly. So that will give you your timeline for how long you can watch it. So you'll, you'll have plenty of opportunities to grab those tickets and watch the production. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:35:53]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:36:03]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

View Details

In today's episode, I welcome Christopher Boorman! Christopher shares his most meaningful art-related story about learning to appreciate Bob Dylan and his music, and what that journey has led to, along with his own experience becoming a professional speaker. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo for Christopher's speaking business!)

Get in touch with Christopher Boorman: https://www.facebook.com/BoormanSpeaks | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwiz0LWnWsYxyhy671sdmmg

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 60 - Christopher Boorman

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am excited to have as my guest today, Christopher Boorman. He is a Christian speaker originally from Queens, but has been spending a lot of time in Connecticut. And I'm just so excited to hear from him and learn from him. So thank you so much for being here today, Christopher.

[00:02:34] Christopher Boorman: Thank you, Lindsay. It's a great honor to be here. Thank you for that.

[00:02:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you would share just a little bit maybe about your background, how you got involved with art. I know you have a very particular story to share, which I'm excited to hear about later, but also maybe just start with a little bit about you.

[00:02:52]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Well, as you mentioned, I was born in Queens and when I was nine years old, my parents moved to the suburbs of Connecticut. Thankfully they took me with them. I still consider myself a native New Yorker though. As you can hear, I don't have the New York accent. But I like to say that I still have that New York attitude, and over the last 20 or so years I've spent in the financial services IT world testing computer systems for upgrades and bug fixes. And over the last five years, writing specs for system improvements. And while I'm looking for my next gig in the gig economy, I'm starting a side hustle as a Christian speaker, and I am a huge fan of music, always have been. In particular, I have been a Bob Dylan fan for well over 30 years.

[00:03:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Okay. So I'm sure that there is quite a bit to unpack there, but yeah. So I'm curious what, since, since you didn't spend-- well, obviously you spent, you know, your first little bit of life in New York,-- but so you, you consider yourself still having that sort of mindset. So I'm curious what you mean.

[00:04:06]Christopher Boorman: I... New York is probably considered, but at least by some the the capital of the universe. It is, you know, it's one of the largest cities in America. It is home to, cultural institutions, you know, like Radio City Music Hall, the, the Museum of Art and, it, it just feels like almost like being part of royalty. Being from New York, I always had such an awe of the city, even as a young kid, going with my father to work around Christmas time there. They would have a special treat. You could bring your kids into work. Going into downtown Manhattan and seeing those skyscrapers, everything just seemed larger than life. I mean, it was New York. I mean, it was the place to be. It's the place where everyone wants to go to strike out on their own, find fame and fortune, especially in the arts. Christina Stanton, she moved to New York to start a career in theater.

[00:05:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is such a cool place to be. I have only ever-- well, the longest I've been there has been three weeks-- but it was very cool to just be a part of that incredible community. Yeah.

[00:05:23] Christopher Boorman: I think part of it has to do with-- I always like to say-- context is everything. Growing up in the suburbs of Connecticut proved to be very difficult. I got along with my classmates fine in Queens, New York. There was never any problems, but it wasn't until I moved to the Connecticut suburbs that I started being bullied in school for whatever reason. And as you probably know, children don't need a reason to bully each other. They just, maybe it's because that was the new thing. Maybe because I was scrawny. And those first few years were extremely tough for me. And sometimes we tend to look to the past with rose colored glasses. And maybe that's why I appreciate New York so much is because my first few years in Connecticut were very different.

[00:06:12]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Ugh. Yeah. Sorry to hear that. But yes, I, I-- that makes sense to me, at least the stark contrast from the-- from Queens to Connecticut. That makes sense. Well, yeah, so I know you have been a Bob Dylan fan forever. I would love if you would share a little bit more about maybe how you got connected with his music and sort of what inspires you.

[00:06:35]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Ever since I was a young kid, even in Queens, I loved music. I loved singing songs in church, singing songs in school. I loved listening to the radio when I was in the car with my parents or when my mom had the radio on in the kitchen as I was preparing for school. So I was, I was a young child in the late seventies. So I grew up on the Mellow Gold singer/songwriter, soft rock kind of music, because that was popular at the time. Well, that and disco, but when my family moved to Connecticut in the early eighties, we got cable TV for the first time. And from my nine year old self, that meant MTV. And I loved it. Years ago, I read an article that described MTV as the original iPod shuffle, because part of the enjoyment of MTV was wondering what they were going to play next.

[00:07:38]And so between MTV and the local pop radio stations, I was exposed to a bunch of different newer artists. This was not the late seventies music that my parents enjoyed. This was early eighties music. This was music for my generation and it was a stark contrast to what I had grown up. So I spent hours and hours and hours-- I mean, basically every free moment --watching MTV. You know, even if I had it on in the background, doing my homework, and I just loved watching the videos and the creativity that went along with the music. It was a perfect pairing. And one music video that particularly captivated me was "We Are the World."

[00:08:26] Now for your younger listeners, "We Are the World" was a song written as a fundraiser for relief for a famine in Ethiopia at the time and it was created in one all night recording session. I believe it was in February of 1984. So this was right after the Grammy Awards and it included a who's who of pop and rock artists past and present, or present at the time. Think of Billy Joel, Hall and Oates, Huey Lewis, Tina Turner, Willie Nelson, and the music-- the list just goes on. And beyond the purpose of it-- which was noble, it was charitable-- it was also a great song. Yeah, it was co-written by Michael Jackson who in the early eighties was kind of on a winning streak, and being a music fan, even as young as I was at the time, I could identify just about every singer that was featured in that song, except for a few.

[00:09:30]And one of the few singers that I didn't know at the time was this guy who didn't appear to be singing at all. I mean, he looked like he was talking his way through the lyrics and you know, everybody's heard that the parodies of the Bob Dylan voice, you know. "This is a choice we're making." Now keep in mind, I'm nine years old at the time. And I think "Who is this?" I mean, he's got to be somebody. I mean, he, he didn't just wander into the recording studio off of the street-- and I mean, well, maybe he did, I, I have no idea-- and I was just so confused and curious. Well, being nine years old, you're, you're at that age, and you're taking piano lessons and eventually I got the sheet music to "We Are the World." I thought, "All right, let me go through all the list of names on the sheet music and whatever name I don't recognize, well, that must be him."

[00:10:24]So I go through the names and I say, all right, this guy is either Harry Belafonte or Bob "Dye-lin." Well, later on I, later on, I find out it is pronounced Dylan, and I later learned that he's the guy who wrote "Blowing in the Wind," the Peter, Paul, and Mary song. Oh, okay. Fine. That's a good enough song. I still don't see why I should care about this guy or why anyone else does? Well, the following summer "Live Aid" happens July 13th, 1985. I didn't have to Google it 'cause I remember it. It was the biggest concert in history, benefit concert or otherwise there, there will never be a show like it. You can't do a show like that today and you never will.

[00:11:16] And I remember the whole thing like it was yesterday, it was a nearly 24 hour concert on three continents and MTV carried the whole thing. And I was glued to that TV all day long. I got up early on a Saturday to watch the show 'cause I didn't want to miss it. One of the locations was Philadelphia. I believe it was, I think it was the JFK Stadium, and the grand finale of the show was everybody was going to get on stage and sing "We Are the World," but just before that, the penultimate act was Bob Dylan. I remember watching and he kicked off his set with a song I didn't recognize. And then he followed it up with another song. I didn't recognize. And finally he concluded his short set with "Blowing in the Wind." Okay. I recognize that one, but he sang it in that same talking voice of his, you know, "The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind." Yeah, I still didn't get it. I still didn't get why this guy was so popular, but I saw the way the crowd was reacting to him. There was an entire stadium full of people, 50,000, 55,000, everybody in a hushed reverence.

[00:12:45] And I saw who was backing him up. It was Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood from The Rolling Stones. Now I certainly knew who they were and I know that they don't, they're not going to back up just anybody just 'cause they ask. I mean, Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood all at the top of the music pyramid, at the top of the food chain. And then I noticed Dylan's placement in the line. He went on just before the grand finale. It wasn't Madonna. She played earlier. It wasn't Duran Duran, wasn't even the reunited Led Zepplin. I understood who Led Zeppelin was. I understood them getting back together was a big deal, but they, none of them went on before the finale and each of them was arguably more popular than Dylan was at the time.

[00:13:35]And so based on all of this, my 11 year old brain just came to the conclusion, "All right. I don't get it, but this guy has to be important in some way." And so I filed it away in my head and fast forward a few years later, I'm in high school and a classmate lends me their cassette copy of Bob Dylan's "Greatest Hits" and I listened to it. And I, then I said, "Oh, yeah, I get it now". " Like a rolling stone, the times they are a' changing. It ain't me, babe." Subterranean, homesick blues, and I thought, "How does this guy write so many great songs?" And maybe it's because I was a little bit older, a little bit more cynical, a little bit more world weary as world-weary as you can get it at 14 years old. I understood Dylan's voice better. It was the exact opposite of something that was polished, something that was fancy and perfect. Dylan's voice is very much imperfect and flawed. Just like me. And that's probably when I became a big fan. And so I started to read everything I could about him.

[00:15:05] And of course I started buying the albums and eventually I owned them all and then some. I haven't listened to them all, but I own them. And of course it becomes a full-blown obsession. And now I can't understand why everyone doesn't like Bob Dylan, as much as I did. And actually my appreciation for Bob Dylan inspired me to pick up a guitar again. And for about 10 years, I was in a local band called Red Embers. We actually have an, an album on iTunes, and I'm very, very proud of that. And of course, I started going to the shows whenever Bob Dylan would come into town. My first Bob Dylan show was at The University of Hartford in 1997. And since then I've seen him about 65 times give or take. I stopped counting. And I've seen him in five different states. I've seen him in clubs, arenas, even baseball park.

[00:16:12] And I remember one particular show in November of 2000. It was in Kingston, Rhode Island at The University of Rhode Island. Bob played a song called "10,000 Men." And, you know, you could be forgiven for not knowing that song. It was released on an album called "Under the Red Sky," released about nine years prior, in 1991-- an average song from a below average album, but he had never played it before and he hasn't played it since. He only played it that one time. And I was there and that is my claim to fame.

[00:16:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. Well, first of all, I love that song, "We Are the World." I think it's just such a beautiful song that just unifies and brings people together. And I just have always appreciated the story behind it and what it was intended for, and then just watching the video is just so cool. And, you know, it's since been remade, you know, of course, but it's just so good. It, there, there's nothing quite like that song. I think it is really powerful. So I could totally see why that was sort of the catalyst for your quest to know who Bob Dylan was and, and go from there. But oh my word, you have seen him-- so I'm so impressed with how many times you've been able to go and see him and yeah, how cool, so unique. And I also love it.

[00:17:53] Christopher Boorman: I personally funded Bob Dylan's 401k plan.

[00:17:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, you know, everyone needs one, so there you go. But also cool to have gotten that, that pretty unique opportunity to hear that one song live and, like you said, your claim to fame. But oh my goodness, so interesting. So I'm, I'm curious, are you-- obviously you've gotten a chance to really follow what he does, but have you also found out more about his life? Is it part of-- like is your respect for him, is it solely based on him being a really fantastic artist? Or is it also like who he is as a person? Or I'm just kinda curious, you know, all of that, about all of that.

[00:18:42] Christopher Boorman: That's a great question for me. And I think it comes down to a personal decision for everyone is, "Do you separate the artist from the art?" And, and for me, I don't. I take it as a full package, because the arts for me is an expression of the artist. It comes from the artists, it is a part of them. And so for me, that can influence either positive or negative, depending on what the artist is like as a person. I, I remember reading that Bob had actually become a Christian in 1979 and he was ministered to, or discipled by, one of my favorite Christian artists named Keith Green, who is probably the only Christian artist that I really listened to. And Bob actually recorded three gospel albums, and being a Christian myself, those-- while not being his best-- I think it resonates with me in, in a very unique way. Then I would say " Shot of Love," the third and final gospel album, is my favorite of the three and probably one of my favorite Bob Dylan albums. I, my mom-- she, who was just wonderful-- I, she said, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if you could meet Bob Dylan."

[00:19:56] And I explained to my mom, if you're the kind of person that goes and sees Bob Dylan 50 or more times, you're the last person that Bob Dylan wants to meet. His security team might want to meet me. Bob does not. Insane. He was asked in an interview, you know, "What do you think about the fans who, who follow you around and see you multiple times every tour?" And he said, "I think they need to get a life." And I don't take that too seriously. And I can understand why Bob would say that. But there's an old saying, "never meet your heroes." And we, we see that quite a bit. I was kind of shocked to hear that Ravi Zacharias, who was a great Christian apologist, who passed away a few months ago, came out after his death that there was some sexual harassment in his past. And it certainly surprised and saddened me, but you know, artists are flawed human beings just like their fans. But I do, if there's a long, drawn-out way to answer your question, but yes, I do consider the artists as part of the art and it does contribute to my appreciation for them.

[00:21:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, that makes complete sense. So, yeah. And so I, you know, speaking itself is an art form, I think. And so I'm, I'm interested to hear more about what you're talking, what will, what you're doing now, and that is trying to build up this maybe --currently side gig-- but maybe it could be full time of being a speaker. And so I'm curious. What kind of speaking are you doing? Is it motivational? Is it funny? Is it, yeah, I'm just kinda curious about what your next step is.

[00:21:41] Christopher Boorman: I would say that my specialty is teaching, which is not necessary thoroughly motivational. Others are much better than I. I prefer expository speaking, teaching particularly, you know, maybe Christian apologetics or history news, which is not to exclude motivation. I think the more I learned about Jesus, the more motivated I am to follow him. I attend a Thursday night a Bible study at a local church and occasionally I will do a lesson, and whenever I do, you know, people always seem to get a lot out of it. They always seem to appreciate it. And I've been told that, that I have a gift and I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe in himself until someone else does. I have to hear it from somebody else. And I have to probably have to hear it a couple of times before we actually start to believe them. Yeah. Anything that's complimentary about me and so I said, "Okay, you know, maybe I can do something with this gift of speaking and do something other than just go around telling people how they can double their sales in six months, you know, to do something of real value to people, something that would -- I hate to say change people's lives, 'cause I'm not the one changing their lives. God's the one that changes their lives-- when maybe I can reach people in a way that maybe somebody else could not".

[00:23:08]And so that's where I'm at right now. And I, and I took a chance. I said, "All right, I'll, I'll start a YouTube channel, you know, and just upload short little sermons to it and see if anyone, to see if anyone cares." Yeah, it's it's taking a step, you know, it's trying, you know, if this is meant to be, then I've got to make the first move, however small. It's not just going to be dumped into my lap. I got to start something, take that first step. And, and even just taking that first step, even just in the trying is a victory of sorts.

[00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Every step towards your next goal is definitely a victory. So, yeah. Kudos to you. And so I'm curious, are you, are you hoping to do this professionally in a sense of becoming like a pastor, or are you thinking more sort of-- I'm just curious to know where, where you would ideally like this to take you, if, if it's meant to be.

[00:24:14]Christopher Boorman: Yeah. If it's meant to be, a friend of mine at the Bible study, he kind of jokes. He says, "You know, maybe someday, you know, Pastor Chris." And that just sounds at this point in my life, at this point of me trying to make something out of this speaking career, that is just so overwhelming. Just hearing those two words next to each other, Pastor Chris it's, it's overwhelming. Who knows? Maybe someday. I, I certainly would not say no to it. Obviously. That's not something that you can just send in an application and get an interview, and great, you're hired. I mean, there's, there's some school involved and it takes a couple of years and it takes a couple bucks to get there, to be appropriately educated.

[00:24:58] That's not to say I would shut the door on that. But if it does happen, it's not going to happen tomorrow. Maybe in the meantime, I can just be a guest speaker on maybe, maybe if the pastor goes on vacation and they need somebody to sub in and give a sermon in a local church for one week, or maybe at a religious group. You know, like the, I dunno, the rotary club or something like that, and just be a traveling itinerant pastor for a few years while I'm going through that education to become a full-time pastor. That's, that's one path that I see.

[00:25:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:25:37]Christopher Boorman: Ultimately it's up to God and then he's going to direct my path, and I've learned that it's best that I just get out of God's way. When I try to do things myself, I generally screw it up and royally.

[00:25:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, don't we all? I mean, it's helpful to have a guiding hand, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm sure there are some of our listeners who would love to connect with you and, and yeah, watch some of these YouTube videos that you've created. How could they connect with you?

[00:26:11] Christopher Boorman: Sure. Just go on YouTube and type in Christopher Boorman Speaks and that's Boorman with two O's, and they can find my YouTube channel and enjoy some videos. And I'd love to, for people to stop by leave a comment, say "Hi."

[00:26:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Excellent. Well, great. I absolutely love your story. It's so unique, just the way that, you know, you explored this artist's work in such an interesting way, like how you were inspired and then, you know, where it kind of led to, and just being a lifelong fan of Bob Dylan. That's pretty cool. So thank you for sharing that really interesting story. I just, I'm so-- I love that. I just love the fact that you were inspired and then you continued to pursue sorta that passion. So thank you for that. And I'm excited for you in this new endeavor too, and speaking, and you know, of course wish you the very best. I'm, I'm rooting for you, but I would love if it's okay with you to ask you the same quick three questions that I ask all of my guests.

[00:27:19] Christopher Boorman: Absolutely.

[00:27:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:27:26]Christopher Boorman: Generally speaking, I would say art is some kind of documented experience or a worldview that is intended to evoke either thought or emotion in the observer.

[00:27:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I like it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:46]Christopher Boorman: Well, for me, the role of an artist is to share their art. It's to share with other people how they see the world, to share how they feel about the human experience. I hate to sound trite, but I'm reminded of that question, "If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around, does it make a sound? So if you're creating art and you don't share it, then are you really an artist? You, you might have a hobby and that's just fine. You can make art for yourself. But I think for it to be art in its truest form, to be an artist, art needs to be shared, it needs to be enjoyed.

[00:28:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, is-- do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, referring to inclusive as an artist who puts their art out into the world and provides some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, just something to kind of help the viewer along. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will.

[00:29:07]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Well, of course either is acceptable. But based on my personality type, I'm more of a right brained, logical kind of person. So I prefer inclusive. I would say one of the goals of a work of art is to provide some kind of understanding of the artist and what they're trying to say. So if a, if a work of art is particularly bleak or complex, then I think some context is very helpful. It's certainly helpful for me. If I'm being asked to make up my own meaning for a work of art, well, then, "Who's the artist here," you know? What's the difference between this work of art and a bunch of random words and shapes and colors or sounds. Yeah. Either way. I'm the one ascribing meaning to it. So I prefer some context, especially for more complex works.

[00:30:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. Okay, well, thank you so very much for being here today, Christopher, I really enjoyed your stories and our conversation, and I wish you only the best in your future speaking career, whether that be as a pastor or like you said, sort of like an interim sort of role, but, but good for you for, for starting it and, and for your YouTube channel and all of that. And I'm just excited to see where that goes. So yeah, kudos to you and thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.

[00:30:43] Christopher Boorman: Well, thank you, Lindsey. This has been a great honor and a pleasure for me. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time, and success for your podcast.

[00:30:52] Lindsey Dinneen: I appreciate that so much. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:17]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

View Details

In today's episode, I welcome Sharon Glassman! Sharon is the creator, designer, and singer/songwriter of Smile Cards, and has a rich career history as a journalist, voiceover artist, podcast host, storyteller, and author. Her belief in serendipity, where "preparation meets opportunity," has led her along an amazing creative journey. Hear her share about the highs and lows of her life, and how she brings joy to the world through her homemade cards now. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Sharon's cards!)

Get in touch with Sharon Glassman: www.smilesongs.com/vip | www.instagram.com/smile_songs

Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 59 - Sharon Glassman

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there.

[00:02:11]Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sharon Glassman. She is a multimedia artist and she is also the designer and songwriter of smiles, songs, cards, and gifts that sing, which I am just so excited about. So excited to hear her stories. So thank you so much for being here today.

[00:02:41] Sharon Glassman: Thanks so much for chatting with me, Lindsey, I'm really excited to chat with you.

[00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, I would love it if you would share just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started. And I know you have had such a very cool career, so many different unique opportunities. So I just can't wait to dive in and hear all about them.

[00:03:00] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Well, the first image that comes to mind that I feel like started me on the path here, creating cards and gifts that are designed to make folks really feel loved and seen and appreciated and happy, is sitting at my parents' kitchen table around the age of 10 and doing an illustrated book of an original poem. And I was cutting up pieces of paper and covering some of them in tinfoil to make this sort of like multi-layered 3D illustration thing. And I think that was the first step to getting here was sort of breaking the rules. But finding ways to make things combining different things, kind of like peanut butter and chocolate in an arty way to make folks feel good.

[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. And then I know you've done a vast number of things and I can't wait to hear about them, but do you want to speak more to what you're doing right now to start?

[00:03:53] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So right now, I have a line of greeting cards for just because reasons about reaching out to a friend, plus the usual stuff like birthdays. I'm working on a new baby card right now. I'm super excited, holiday stuff, moms', dads' day, that kind of stuff. And the way that they sing is that I design a QR code and I link it back to an original song that I write to amplify the colors and the design and the message, because you know, when you're out in the world and something makes you feel happy, it usually doesn't just touch one of your senses with art. It usually engages several of them. So if you see a sunny day and there's a blue sky, and then the breeze blows and you smell a flower, that's a whole bunch of senses combining. And my challenge and a commitment has been, how do I create that feeling for folks?

[00:04:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Neat! And I love the idea of including multiple senses in this experience, because I think, oh, that just makes it so much richer. Oh, neat. What a unique idea. Okay. How did you come up with that?

[00:05:04]Sharon Glassman: It was an invitation. It was a creative challenge. Very briefly, because my career is a little non-linear, I started out being a terrified style writer in New York City. I'm an introvert by nature. So I function well when I'm listening, when I'm observing, and I really do want the answers to questions, but at that point in my life, I was just way too scared to go to a fashion designer and say, "Hey, let's talk." I was so scared about asking the wrong question. And that led me to hack my career for the first time. And what I began to do was tell stories on stage. I would ask people about their love life. I would ask people their love stories. I would ask questions, but I somehow wasn't scared when it wasn't journalism.

[00:05:49] And then I would go share them to make people again, feel loved and appreciated for who they were. I traveled around the country doing this, and that led me to move to Colorado where I became a performing songwriter. And at that point, what had happened was folks in the audience, a lot of them introverts and kindhearted, highly sensitive people would say to me, "That song makes me feel really like you're talking to me and telling me about my best self. If only I could take you home and put you on my wall or have you around, because what I'm seeing when I hear you is so inspiring too." And I thought, "Yeah, let me think about that for a second, because I think I can make that dream come true."

[00:06:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. How cool. Well, and I, I'm so intrigued. Okay. So you went from just feeling like you said, kind of fearful and introverted, and so, so was that kind of a discovery of that maybe journalism isn't for you? Or do you still dabble in that at all? Or what kind of happened with that component?

[00:07:00] Sharon Glassman: Well, I think it's continued in a number of different ways. I feel like the words that I'm using on my card are a form of journalism because they come from really hearing what folks hear about and need. It's a little bit of copywriting too, which is something else I've done. But what happened for me was the minute that I found my comfort zone, which is an introverted comfort zone, I do things differently. I would never be the kind of journalist that you could send out to cover a five alarm fire or that kind of thing. But I am still a journalist who, on occasion, will do a feature about somebody. I just was doing a column in our local paper called "Ask the Introvert," where I was exploring lifestyle issues for introverts. It comes and goes-- the journalism part-- but really what I think it did was to train me to be observant, to take notes, to recognize a soundbite when I hear one, which again, leads to the lyrics in my songs and the messages on the audio.

[00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. So it just has continued to impact you. And of course, those skills that you developed have obviously been useful throughout, you know, your career, even now. And that's, I think really cool how sometimes, you know, a path that we discover isn't for us can still-- those skills and those, those learning experiences that you had can be brought forward into something else. And I think that that's such a magical thing about recognizing that maybe the circumstance wasn't ideal, but this is still pretty cool what you get to do as a result, you know. Yeah, that's just special. All right. I have so many things to ask you about. Okay, so I know that you've also been a voiceover artists for cable TV. Can you share a little bit about that? How cool.

[00:08:51]Sharon Glassman: Sure. And that was a case of serendipity-- What is it? Preparation meeting opportunity. I had gone from being a journalist. I was a copywriter for a cable, big cable TV company. And again, it wasn't my happy place. There were moments that were really exciting that again, would train me about graphic design that I would use later, but I was pretty unhappy and I decided to get some training doing voiceover work and I'd put together my demo tape, my little cassette at that time. And I was down in the subway and I bumped into a guy from the cable company I worked for and he said, "You don't happen to do voiceover, do you? 'Cause I've got this thing that I think would be great for you." And I said, "As a matter of fact, here's my brand new demo tape." And he said, "Okay!" And he called me back and he said, "You're hired for this job." And at the same time, I went to a meet and greet opportunity and got signed by an agent. So I had an agent and a job and that let me transition away from my last corporate job and start sort of creating a career. That's a bit of a mosaic. So there are things that I focus on or I'm doing more at one time. And then there are kind of the backup singers of my career that then let me do things like voiceover, or maybe write an article while I focus on, you know, the business that I'm working on.

[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, so cool. I love those stories of just that sort of serendipity, you know, things coming together, but it's not just random chance you had to do the work too, you know, like you had this demo tape, but that was something that you wanted to pursue and then opportunity intersected. And it was just cool. I love those stories. Awesome. And then I also know that you have been a podcaster yourself or co-host of a podcast and have a pretty cool connection there. Do you want to chat about that too?

[00:10:45] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So after I moved to Colorado-- again, something that looked like a door closing or possibly burning down happened-- I was living out kind of in the suberbs. And there was a fire in the house next door that convinced me it was time to move. And I ended up moving up into the Hills to house sit and when I was doing that, somebody said, "Oh, you know, one of your neighbors is a writer for the "Golden Girls."" And I said, "I didn't know that," but I actually announced the Golden Girls on lifetime television back in New York on cable. It's kind of like that one degree of separation. So they introduced us and we were talking. Yeah. And, he said, "Yeah, I'm going to be working on this podcast for an insurance company. It's branded, branded content as they call it in the business for baby boomers. Would you have any interest in helping me?" and I was like, "That would be awesome." And before you knew it, I was co-hosting it. And we ran for a year on terrestrial radio, both in LA and Colorado. And then of course, as you know, with podcasts, around the globe and perhaps beyond into the universe, that was pretty cool.

[00:11:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That is super cool. Yeah. And, oh my goodness. Yes. I just love all these different, cool little things that you've gotten to do. And I know you've been an author as well. And you know, obviously as a journalist-- that, I mean, is obviously a form of writing-- but have you written your own book or what kind of authoring have you done?

[00:12:13] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Again, the, the, the winding road that is my career led to some pretty nifty things. And I think we had talked just a little bit earlier that after I left journalism, I sort of hacked it and began telling reported stories on stage. And one story that really caught my attention --we're back in New York now-- was something at the time called Operation Santa Claus that had an amazing history. In New York City, there's a very large central post office. And it's a very dramatic building. It's a stunningly beautiful Beaux Arts building. And what I found out was that every year around Christmas time, they would take letters to Santa written by kids and families who needed help with gifts for themselves or gifts for each other, and they would make them available to the general public to answer. And this had been going on since the Great Depression. It started when people at that time needed help and postal workers would actually fulfill those letters. And then over the years, it grew into something just spectacular. And my joke about it was that the person who would just steal your cab a second earlier was stealing it to get to the post office to answer a letter. So it kind of brought out the best in New Yorkers.

[00:13:22] And there were more letters than there were Santa's Secret Santas at that time. And I thought that that was-- I could help. So it's a combination of reporting on the story, but then also I had had an experience that I-- I tend to like to use my personal experiences, to show my foibles in a way to invite people, to not be scared of making a mistake, but to get involved and to help. I had gone to the post office and I come from a Jewish family, not a religious family, but a culturally Jewish family. So we weren't allowed to have Christmas. It was like the great forbidden guest. And this was a way for me to sneak in and be an anonymous Santa and get my Christmas fix at the same time.

[00:14:01] And so I answered three letters and I made a ginormous mistake. I was just old enough to not know what the kids were wanting. And one of my letters asked for something, asked me for a First Down jacket. And I got very emotional. I was like, "This child has never had a down jacket. They want their first down jacket." I'm going to go get this the puffiest, warmest, dorkiest, you know, jacket that I can find. And the story that I would tell to invite other people to participate would be after running around town and getting this really-- as I said-- big puffy jacket, I managed to get it into the deadline and get it to the post office, mail it just in time, only to walk outside and see a really cool- looking little kid wearing a very thin down jacket with a big label on it that said First Down.

[00:14:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh! Oh, no. So it was a brand. It wasn't a style.

[00:14:55] Sharon Glassman: Right, right.

[00:14:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, jeez Louise. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh.

[00:14:59] Sharon Glassman: Right? And it took me back to a Christmas experience I had had as a kid when we, you know, when I was still a believer in Santa, when I wanted a Easy-Bake Oven. And Santa brought me a Suzy Homemaker Oven, and I was like, "What's wrong with Santa? Why doesn't Santa get that there's an enormous difference? One of these things is really cool and one of them is super dorky. I'll never be like that when I grow up." Oh yes, you will.

[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. I love that story. And what a cool organization. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. Is that in more cities than just New York or, you know, is that like more of a-- because it should be a national thing. That's really cool.

[00:15:35] Sharon Glassman: It should be. Well, and I traveled around the country, I, that was the book that I published. It was called "Love, Santa." I got a book deal with Warner Books, which is now I think Grand Central Publishing. And we turned it into kind of a holiday gift book with a how-to at the end. So you can have your own "Love, Santa" party. I traveled around to companies and you know, how folks in companies would be like, "Oh, it's Secret Santa time. Great. I'm going to get you a soap and you'll get me a lip balm. And we'll both be like, what else? "But this, instead I would come in and say, "Let's maybe not do that. You can answer letters to kids and families together and buy food and clothing and beds." And so that was remarkable. And I traveled around the country with those letters from New York, but I believe that there must be, or were other programs like that throughout the country. It's just people are so good at heart, and this was a great way for everyone to come together and make a difference. And it was, it was a pretty great experience.

[00:16:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so good. And I'm totally gonna read that book because I just, I was so inspired by that story and yeah, that, that is cool. I, I hope that it is something that I can participate too locally or start or something I'm like, "Oh my goodness, this is just fantastic." Well, yeah, I'm sure that you have, you know, obviously such an amazing career and, and all of that. And where do you see yourself kind of going from here? Obviously you're building your business, which is fantastic and a huge time-taking endeavor, but are there other things that you're continuing to kind of dabble in on the side, or things like in the future you want to kind of pursue too?

[00:17:11] Sharon Glassman: Well, I have a musical duo with the man I call my fiddle beau, which is a little bit of a pun, the B E A U . I am a nerd. I'm a nerdy punster. And we're called the Jamison's Duo and we play jazz-inspired or jazz-influenced bluegrass. He comes from Kentucky, he comes from the bluegrass state. So we continue to do that. And that's fun on the side. Yeah. And right now I'm moving into wholesaling for my business. And so it's interesting because, because I'm writing music as well as designing products. I've learned how to record at home. And so I'm working on the next set of songs for the next set of designs for the next, you know, working on Christmas 2021 right now, and looking ahead to 2022. So I'm really in a learning phase as I expand from retail into wholesale. And that is really where my time and focus is now. But you know, there's always the creative pursuits of like baking stuff and cooking stuff, 'cause you got to eat while you do all this art stuff.

[00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so true. And if you make it fun, you know, by being creative, then it's, it's a lot more enjoyable of a process and doesn't feel like a chore.

[00:18:21]Sharon Glassman: Yeah, and I think that these things inspire each other too. I just, I just did a new greeting card that I'm really excited about and it says, "Season your life with love." And it has a bowl with hearts in it, and you know, the salt shaker putting love into your food, which then puts love into your life. And I think all these things are really tied together. It's that sensory, cross sensory concept again.

[00:18:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. And so I'm curious --I'm sure that you've had so many moments during your career so far, during your life so far, that kind of stand out, but I'm, I'm wondering if there are specific ones that stand out in your memory either when you witnessed somebody experience your own art, or when you experienced somebody else's art, where it was just sort of this like moment that mattered. I need to file this away and remember.

[00:19:10]Sharon Glassman: Wow. Such a great question. There are a couple, I have a couple of both, I guess. There was a moment-- there was a stage storyteller whose name was Spalding Gray, and he really defined the genre of standing up on a stage and telling a story, his were usually from his life, as opposed to reported usually, but he was just a master of that genre and seeing him definitely changed my life, both creatively and just inspired me. And I had a big art crush on him and actually got to almost meet him after a show. He performed at someone's home in Philadelphia, but introvert was too scared to talk to him, which then of course became a story about not talking about the person that you're talking to, the person that you want to talk to you. Seeing him was life-changing. Hearing a lot of the music that I hear here in Colorado, we're very close to a town that I call the Nashville of Colorado and the musicians around here that we just get to hear and play with on a daily basis-- that's been a life-changing experience. Yeah. I mean, and seeing them like in the grocery store, I mean, you're like, "Oh, hello, music person." And now with pandemic zooming, we're able to see shows coming in from Nashville on a weekly basis. So we have our little Chinese food/ Nashville, bluegrass situation going on in our house on Friday nights, where we bring in Chinese food and then sit on the side of the table that faces the TV, down in the TV room, and dial up insanely talented, like world-class musicians and it's kind of like we have a front row to these concerts, so that's pretty exciting.

[00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is super exciting. And it's so fun too, because you know, okay. So obviously the pandemic has been very challenging for many, many, many people. And there, there are a lot of difficult things as a result, but at the same time, to hear from artists who've kind of learned to adapt and pivot and, and now like the world opened up, you know, and we have these super cool opportunities to see a concert that we might not have been able to before, or would have been very challenging to try to get there or something. And so it's, you know, on one hand, it's maybe not the way that we would have wished that it came about, but it's pretty cool what we get to do and who we get to see and experience that maybe otherwise we wouldn't have.

[00:21:49]Sharon Glassman: I do think the digital aspect of the arts right now was probably trending to this place but was definitely jump-started by the situation that we find ourselves in. I think more and more, and especially as an introvert, again, getting back to this, so things that other people find fun, for me personally, it can be just exhausting. I need to go to bed for a day afterwards, just because I've had all the feels, and all the feels like kind of exhausted all the energies. The digital world for me is a very comfortable place. And again, going back to the QR codes that make my card sing, finding that digital piece. And before that, I had done a podcast that I published on bottles of wine with a local winery here, again, using QR codes.

[00:22:37] And so I had an entire cast of local people who are actors and non-actors performing this novel that I wrote with, which I wrote songs for ,and the way that we were able to deliver it was-- and I'll do a little parenthetical-- I think being in the same place at the same time increasingly is not a thing that's viable for lots of people at lots of situations. So where you used to try and get the largest live audience you could to see what you were doing, and that meant that you, it was working. I think now we're kind of pixelated and each of us has a desire to see something when we want to see it or here to experience it. And that may be where art is going is more of a one-on-one albeit digital connection.

[00:23:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Well, and I think there's value to that too, because it makes it feel more personal and yeah, just a little bit more of an accessible, sort of intimate way of experiencing art, and that is special. Yeah. And you're right, because, you know-- so I'm a dancer and I have a professional dance company and we would define success on some level, just on a practical level, I would say-- but yeah, the number of tickets that we sold to our shows-- and it's interesting because, you know, on a more fundamental level, our whole goal is to bring joy and inspiration to people. And so that can happen in a lot of different ways, even more so now with us, you know, kind of pivoting even our own direction and filming and doing that kind of thing. And it doesn't, yeah, the reach is, is different, but it, it's exciting.

[00:24:20]Sharon Glassman: Well, I can't wait to watch you guys dance online. You have to send me a link. So this is really exciting to me because now I love watching dance and yeah, I would love to see that now. And I know you, and now I'm like super excited. Like I can't wait to see you. But this is, this is how this happens through a podcast, which is a digital medium. And if it didn't exist, we might not have connected. 'Cause I don't know the next time I'm going-- I've never been to Kansas City and I don't know that you've been to Longmont, Colorado-- but we're connected and now I can see your stuff and you can hear my stuff. And who knows, maybe there's a collaboration down the road that comes from that or some other things. So I think that is a really exciting 21st century arts creation and progress that has so many ramifications. I don't think we know them all yet, but we are exploring them, which is pretty cool.

[00:25:07] Lindsey Dinneen: It is. Yes. I couldn't agree more. I'm so excited about yes, all of these artistic collisions. I'll put it, put it that way. And, the opportunities that can kind of come from a more open world, in a sense, and it's, it's exciting, good things are coming. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you and, you know, support and follow your work. Is there a way for them to do that?

[00:25:34]Sharon Glassman: Absolutely. In terms of social media, I tend to be more of an Instagram person, and on Instagram I am smile underscore songs, but yeah, you can always get to me and find the Insta link and all that good stuff on my website, which is just smilesongs.com. And for your listeners, if they would like a little discount on cards and gifts that sing, you can sign up at smilesongs.com/vip, and then you'll get my news and find out what's going on and get the 20% off coupon and all that groovy stuff. So I think those are probably the two places and you can always reach me. There's a contact button there. So you can say hi, or ask me a question. I'm always excited to hear from people and find out maybe what they want. Like maybe there's a, a card or a message that they need in their life. And I'm always excited to hear about that.

[00:26:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's super cool. Well, yeah. Thank you also for being so generous. I am so excited that you shared that with us and we can go and support your work. So thank you for that. I love it. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that.

[00:26:55] Sharon Glassman: Oh, yes.

[00:26:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:27:04] Sharon Glassman: Wowza! That's sounds like one of those great, like questions of all time, like, you know, what is the meaning of life kind of thing? How do you define art? Wow. I think it's a feeling generated by a selective something. So it could be a painting. It could be a dance. It could be a song, but I think it's that combination of created experience and emotion.

[00:27:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Love it. Excellent. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:46]Sharon Glassman: I think if you truly believe it, see it, want to share it. That I think is probably what makes art, art. There's something there that's just intrinsically real.

[00:28:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit. Is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration versus an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's exclusive in the sense that it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to see what they will.

[00:28:43] Sharon Glassman: Wow. That's really interesting. Okay. I think both of those things. I'm going to go for both of, both of the, all of the above, because I can imagine-- I'm just picturing an art gallery. For some reason, I can picture walking in an art gallery and actually the exhibit being a series of paintings that have no title cards whatsoever, followed by a room where we see the same paintings with the title cards. And that experience would be super cool. Somebody do that and then let us know where it is so we can go. 'Cause that would be really cool. 'Cause you would be looking at the art and making up your own story and then you would be going into the other room and seeing either a curated version of that or the artist version of that.

[00:29:27] But you know, so many paintings are called "Untitled." And I know that that gives us some information about like, you kind of go, "Oh, that's super cool. That person called their thing "Untitled." They're really pretty. Let me look at that. Well, it's a white, all white canvas called "Untitled." Dude, that's so deep." It's interesting. I think they're both interesting experiences, so I'm yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to stick with my, all of the above.

[00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. Love it. Okay. Well, Sharon, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate it. And I loved hearing your stories, career, your, your life has been so interesting. And I just love hearing how all the different things have sort of intersected and collided a little bit into what you're doing right now, and how it's all kind of, you know, the writing, the singing, the storytelling, just all of those things are sort of woven into what you're doing now, and I just think that's really cool and special. So thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think it, I know it matters. I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I, I know that I just appreciate that you do that. So thank you. And thank you again for being here today. This has been so fun.

[00:30:36] Sharon Glassman: Lindsey, it's been delightful chatting with you, and I cannot wait to see you dance. This is really exciting. New friends, new friends, new art, or like I'm excited. It's going to make my day happier. I love this idea of spreading the joy through art and conversation.

[00:30:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yay. Yes, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira! Anthony and Justin have been collaborating ever since they met in college, and are the writers, filmmakers, and producers of two documentaries to far: "Straight Off the Canvas" and "We're Ordinary People." Their work showcases blind artists and the way that they perceive and create beautiful artwork. (Fun fact: the cover image is a little behind-the-scenes of fliming "Straight Off the Canvas!")

Get in touch with Anthony Saldana & Justin Figueira: www.facebook.com/staightcanvas | www.twitter.com/straightcanvas

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 58 - Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am just so excited to have as my guests today, two wonderful people. They are the producers and creators of the documentary, Straight Off the Canvas," and they are Anthony Saldana and Jason Figueira and I'm just so happy that you all are here. Thank you so much for being here, guys. And I can't wait to dive in.

[00:01:00] Anthony Saldana: It's good to be here.

[00:01:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome.

[00:01:03] Jason Figueira: It's wonderful to be here.

[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, I would love if you would just share a little bit maybe about your background and your story and what got you involved and in art in general, but then I know you guys have this powerful documentary that you've recently produced. I would just love to hear all about that.

[00:01:25] Anthony Saldana: Sure. We are two guys from Queens, New York. My name is Anthony and I was born in Queens, New York, and really was always interested in being a creative person, and really didn't find the right outlet until college. I was in, in high school. I had a lot of creative energy, but didn't have the right outlet. And then in college I met Jason. And we just formed such a great friendship. We really didn't do much like television or class, too many production classes together. We went to Queens College together and really formed a great friendship during that time. And we both graduated in 2008 and from there, you know, I started a career in customer service in New York City, but never left my, my love and passion for video and television. And I would always have an idea working in my head, and I share ideas with Jason, and we've been kind of collaborating together over the last has it been like 12 years, 13 years, Jason?

[00:02:36] Jason Figueira: Yeah, I would say about 12 years, actually.

[00:02:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's incredible. You met in college and then went from there, and wow, so this friendship has just evolved and grown over the years and, and now you guys make really cool things together. That's awesome. So I'm so curious. I know, you know, Anthony, you talked a little bit about dabbling in art and how art has been a part of your life. And Jason, I'm curious, how has art been a part of your life as well? Or what's your background and story too?

[00:03:09] Jason Figueira: Well ,in high school I had a different story. I wanted to work in animation. I wouldn't say I was bad at drawing, but I didn't have enough patience to sit down and learn how to draw professionally. And I had all these great ideas in my head of what I wanted something to look like, but just getting it down on paper was so difficult. And I'd see kids who, it seemed like they had a natural gift for drawing. And I was like, "Aw, man, I'd like to do that." But when I went to college, I was just going to major in computer science and just do creative work on the side. And I decided, you know what? If I'm going to do computer science, I'm going to end up being here for a long time, because I'm not good at math either. So I went through my careers handbook and I saw Media Studies, and I said, you know what? I have, I wanted to do something creative. Maybe it should be my career first and foremost. Because my heart wasn't really in computer science. I love technology. I loved working with computers, but that wasn't really going to be what I wanted to do as a main career.

[00:04:17] And so I joined Media Studies and I just went in, took some of the beginning classes and from there on out, everything about the field just interested me. And when I met Anthony, it was in one of, one of the computer science classes. And, when I talked to him, I was like, "Oh, we're going to get along. It really seems like we're going to get along here." And from there on out, we've just been, you know, doing creative work because it's, it's what we love to do, you know, plain and simple. That's just really what it is. So, yeah. That's how I got started in here and I'm still looking to write for animation and I just, you know, do it in my spare time too. But thanks to media, I'm able to develop my creative energy even more so. That's where I fall in this story.

[00:05:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's fantastic. Well, and I love your-- I can relate to this so much because I'm sort of, one of those want to be really good fine artist, but I... nope. Nope. It's just not in my wheelhouse. It's like I see-- I remember my art teacher back in-- oh, gosh, I think of middle school-- just, I mean, bless his heart. He tried so hard with me and I just could not translate what I was looking at on to a paper. Just never made sense.

[00:05:41]Anthony Saldana: I think I can relate.

[00:05:43] Jason Figueira: I completely understand.

[00:05:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It's so funny. And I just have so much respect for fine artists who can just look at something and go, "Oh yeah, I can totally see where all the shadows are and how you need to, you know..." I, anyway, just that's an aside, but yes I can relate is really what I'm boiling this down to. So. Okay. So then you guys obviously hit it off and, you know, started collaborating. So have you guys done more than the documentary? And I can't wait to hear more about that specifically, but also before that, have you worked on other projects together as well?

[00:06:21] Anthony Saldana: Yes. Our, our first documentary that we did was a documentary about visually impaired activists here in New York City called, "We're Ordinary People." I don't have a visual impairment, but I was just interested in how blind people perceive art. And I picked up a book one day and it was "Ordinary Daylight" by Andrew Potok. And he is basically an artist who is going blind and is, is so affected by that. That traumatic turning point in his life that he does a, a therapy of where bees sting his eyes for him to gain some recovery. And reading that book really affected me. So I told Jason that I wanted to do a documentary about blind people and knowing that there's not too many films or TV shows about that show blind people in such a positive way or at all on television. So I felt that it was important to do a documentary about, about blind activists and what, what blind people need here, you know, in the community. And then I can have a right to do a documentary about blind painters. So I'd kind of pitched that idea to Jason and he was excited. He was actually attending grad school at the time. So. It gave him an opportunity to get out there in the field.

[00:07:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. That's such a cool story. And also I'm cringing so much about the bee stings. Oh man.

[00:08:01] Anthony Saldana: Right, right. And I was too, and that's why it just affected me so much. Do you know, you think about like, yeah, I just picked up the book thinking, "I want to know how a blind person perceives art," and that's that, you know, I got to find his story. So.

[00:08:18] Lindsey Dinneen: That's so cool. And so Jason, can you share more about your reaction when Anthony shared this vision with you and sort of how that spoke to you and what that kind of led to?

[00:08:31] Jason Figueira: Sure. So when Anthony called me one night and he was telling me about his idea that he wanted to film, I was looking for way to start practicing what I had learned in grad school. I think I'd been there for about a year, a year and a half. And I was going to Hofstra at the time and they had just started their documentary program and I was very eager to really test out my skills and, you know, really see what I was capable of. And when he told me about this story, I was very intrigued because I never really stopped to think about how would a blind person perceive art. And I said, you know what? This is, this is something I'd like to learn about too. So it wasn't just a way for me to practice my skills. It was a way for me to learn about an aspect of a community I had rarely ever interacted with.

[00:09:28] And I said, you know, this is, this is one aspect of documentary is-- you're kind of like an anthropologist and you're going to a new culture you've never interacted with before. And you're learning about everything about them and, you know, their different characteristics, personalities. And I think when we went on this adventure, I think we came out with a new appreciation for the blind community, especially in the art field. And especially after this, doing this film, I got to say that even some of the work I've seen from blind artists, it reminded me of high school. They were like those kids who could draw. It was amazing watching someone like Elizabeth Castellano make a painting. It was absolutely beautiful. I just said, you know what? I had never stopped to think about this, you know, and this film was like a window into learning about how art was not just a visual medium, but really a medium for our other senses. And I, I gotta say I'm really glad I went with Anthony on, on this film and supported him because it's been an excellent adventure to say the least.

[00:10:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I can imagine. That is so cool. And see, that's one of the things that I just love the most about art is the fact that it does open our eyes to other perspectives and other experiences that maybe we haven't gone through or don't have a lot of knowledge of or whatever. But when you are able to bring art into the mix and share your stories through it, it's so cool how it can connect people and make you think about things in ways that you wouldn't have otherwise, maybe. That's really cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So then you also have done "Straight Off the Canvas." Can you tell us more about that?

[00:11:35] Anthony Saldana: Yes. So once I completed the "We're Ordinary People" documentary about the blind activist, you know, I was really excited because that documentary itself won a number of awards. And I felt like it was, it was time be able to tell a story about visually impaired artists. So I was trying to research about artists who had visual impairments here in New York City. And I, I found a news article for the New York Times about an artist who was legally blind and teaching art in the New York City Public School System. And she had a website, so I contacted her and her name was, is Elizabeth Castillano. And so in the moment I sent the email to her, she was so excited. And the funny thing is that, that I never knew that. You know, I thought it was going to-- I didn't think that that journey was going to take 10 years-- but that process of, you know, calling her and say, "Hey, can I interview" that that happened in 2011. So the documentary itself is really about not only Elizabeth, but we went out to Lavelle School for the Blind, which is in the Bronx, New York.

[00:12:50] And we interviewed the art teacher, Jessica Jones, who was also blind, teaching her blind students preparing them for an art show. And I also felt that it was important to have the Art Beyond Sight, which is in Oregon, a nonprofit organization that helps make art museums accessible for visually impaired. I really felt that it was very important for them to be them to be included in the film because, you know, it's not just about any classroom-- art should be accessible in the museums. And so we, we focused a lot on that and how art can be healing and a therapy for not just for, for blind people, but everyone. Art is a therapy and, and can really help us through some dark times, especially during the pandemic.

[00:13:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Jason, do you have anything to add to that experience from your own perspective?

[00:13:56]Jason Figueira: I have to say when I, I think-- one of my favorite parts of the film, one of my favorite parts of production rather-- was filming the art show because watching some of their creations-- it, it was truly beautiful. I know we were filming two of their students who created Maleficent from Disney's, "Snow White." And it was, it was absolutely beautiful. And a lot of the art there wasn't just a project. A lot of the art was personal to them. They were, some of them had mentors, parents, friends that had motivated them to, to basically keep going. And it was wonderful to see not only how beautiful their art was, but how connected they were with it.

[00:14:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Oh my goodness. I cannot wait to see this. I've I've got to hop on this, clearly. That's that sounds...

[00:14:52] Anthony Saldana: We've got a VIP link just for you.

[00:14:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Fantastic. Oh, so cool and special. You know, it's so interesting that you, that that was the subject of your documentary. I have a friend here in Kansas City who is a fine artist, and she's brilliant. I mean, I think her work is just incredible, and her name is Katheryn Krouse and she's actually one of the guests that I've interviewed before, but she is kind of in a similar situation, where she is in the process of losing her eyesight and it makes her art so much more vibrant. I mean, the colors that she chooses are just bright and splashy, and she chooses like very joyful sort of, you know, gorgeous settings. And it's just so cool to hear her story, and I think that sometimes, you know, when you don't have the ability to experience life with all of your senses in the way that you might prefer, it's so interesting to hear the perspective or see the art that comes out because it's beautiful and special. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing.

[00:16:08] Anthony Saldana: I definitely wanted to interview, you know, different women with different stories. So, Elizabeth who's a, the main subject of our film, she was born legally blind, and then at the age of 13, had surgery so she would gain some sight, but still is legally blind and has a dog. And I also interviewed Jessica Jones, who lost her sight as an adult due to diabetes. So, you know, everyone has their own different story, but it's really the, I think the point really is that, you know, they, they found a way to continue making the work that they're passionate about. And really that motivated, that motivated us in ways that I never expected when we started.

[00:16:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I'm sure there are some moments either from the film or through your own life experiences, whether it was, you know, watching someone experience your own art or whether you experienced art that kind of stick out to you in your memory as, "Hey, I've got to file this away. This is, this is a moment to remember." Do you two have those stories to share?

[00:17:20]Anthony Saldana: Jason, you want to start?

[00:17:22]Jason Figueira: Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of stories between all of the films we've done. We've been on incredible journeys. I've got to say that the most unforgettable story was when we did our first film "We're Ordinary People," and we had to go to New Jersey to film a blind rabbi, and I remember so well because it was a day that was so beautiful, but getting home was so tragic because we basically took a bus to Jersey and then we had a cab take us to where that rabbi had lived. I think it was in the Demarest and we tried to get home the same way. We were going to take a cab to the bus stop. The bus stop was probably three or four miles away. So we said, "Okay, we're going to take a cab back." We call the cab company and they're like, "Oh no, we're done for the day."

[00:18:20]Anthony Saldana: This, this is before Uber.

[00:18:23] Jason Figueira: This is before Uber, mind you. So we now have-- we looked at each other and we said, "All right, we have no choice but to walk it. We turned on our camera and we just documented our terrible three to four mile hike in the summer, in blazing summer weather and just literally telling jokes as much as we can to get our minds off the fact that we're walking three to four miles to get to a bus stop, and pray to God we can reach there before sundown.

[00:19:01] Anthony Saldana: We passed a Dunkin Donuts and I thought that I had seen heaven because I had never been so excited to see Dunkin Donuts. And then, and then I pass right by it. And there was a pizzeria. I'm like, "Ahhhh! Water!" I felt like I was in the desert...

[00:19:20] Jason Figueira: It's like in Loony Tunes films when they see a mirage.

[00:19:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. You know what I love about that story too, is, you know, I talk about this quite a bit and, you know, my guests who, who are involved in the arts, which I suppose on some level is everyone. Right? They, we talk a lot about how there's so much work behind the arts and it's so worth it, but the glamour happens 1% of the time and the other 99% of the time is, yeah, you guys having to walk the three to four miles.

[00:19:59] Anthony Saldana: Right? I mean, it's true. And it's on YouTube, the entire walk, we filmed it all. As for me, I have a, more of a... so in 2012, I was in the beginning of production for a documentary and I had a, a really traumatic workplace accident. It was an accident that affected my back and my neck. And it, I was supposed to do an interview with Elizabeth, you know, very, very soon. And I had then tell her that I was, you know, dealing with a medical issue that, you know, I still deal with to this day. And when I called her, she told me that she herself was having personal issues with, with physical issues, you know, with her back. And so we were just like committed. I found a therapy buddy in the person that was supposed to interview, who I really didn't know. And I just said, "Look, I know that this horrible thing has just happened to me. But I really want to tell your story." And in, in her head, she had something really, really traumatic happened to her. And she said to me that she wanted me to tell her story and we really bonded in that moment. And at the same time, Jason was having his physical issue, which we found inspiration from, and is going to be a future film of ours. You want to take that, Jason?

[00:21:31] Jason Figueira: Oh, well, sure. So in 2012 while Anthony was planning his next film and I was, you know, helping out with some suggestions or so, I began to experience early symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder. And I had not known I was obsessive compulsive. I knew what it was, but I didn't know I was obsessive compulsive until I turned 26, and pretty much it exploded out of control and I couldn't stop fixing things. I couldn't do basic functions for myself anymore. I became completely shut in and I couldn't leave my house. I lived with my parents and I could not leave my house. I couldn't even leave the corner of my house. It was so bad. And I one day went to a priest that we had known, me and Anthony had known, and he recommended I see a therapist. And that therapist said you have OCD. I don't know how to do behavioral therapy. So I recommend you go to Mount Sinai which is a hospital here in New York. It's a pretty well-known hospital and they have a center strictly for helping OCD patients. And I went there and I found out, well, they have a scale from one to 40 of how obsessive compulsive someone is. And on that scale out of 40, I rated about a 39. So I was really bad. I needed take medication and I needed behavioral therapy. So I spent about a good year and a half in behavioral therapy even before I could resume helping Anthony film "Straight Off the Canvas." So it was pretty tough when I was filming with him. I was in the throws of just recovering from my mental illness and it was a very dark period. It was, it really was tough, but thanks to friends like Anthony, you know, I was able to fight it. I chose not to give up and here I am today talking about film on your podcast, right?

[00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much for sharing that and being, you know, honest and vulnerable. I'm sure that's not a particularly easy thing to share, but I really appreciate it. And, and thank you for that, because I'm know that your story is going to impact so many people and I'm so excited that you all are going to be producing another documentary. That is really cool. Both of you, thank you. I'm just, I'm so inspired by what you all are doing. And I think, you know, documentaries are such a powerful way to share stories and to bring about just a conversation that might be otherwise difficult to have or uncomfortable to have. And it's really cool that what your work does brings art to lots of people in a very unique way. So thank you for doing what you're doing.

[00:24:40] Anthony Saldana: I appreciate that. And, you know, I felt like I had to share our story because the set was misty-eyed like, if you would ask me, like, "What's your dream project?" This is my dream project. And, and there, there was something very emotional about, about being able to film her painting, because Elizabeth talks about painting as her therapy and that's what gets her through the dark days and, you know, being able to film her painting was that therapy for us. So it's just a, really a beautiful story.

[00:25:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it really is. And again, that's the power of the arts is it doesn't just affect the person who's doing it, but it affects the viewer or the participant. And then those effects just can have a snowball effect for other people. And then that's why, if you feel inspired to create on any level in any medium, please do so, because you just don't know what kind of impact you're going to have on yourself and on the world. You just don't know. Yeah, that is so cool, guys. Well, this is amazing and I'm sure that our listeners would love to, you know, interact with you, connect with you, and also support your work. So is there a way for us to connect with you and where can we watch your documentaries?

[00:26:08] Anthony Saldana: Sure. We're on Twitter. You can find us at, @straightcanvas, on Facebook is facebook.com/straightcanvas. We'll have all our information up on those social media sites. I'm trying to develop a, a website. When it does come up, we already purchased the domain of straightoffthecanvas.com. But right now you can find us on Twitter and we'll be able to update you guys on when the site will be up and ready and when our documentary will be in, in your area, because I want to definitely get it out to Kansas City.

[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. And you have a very willing and excited audience in Kansas City. I'm not actually from here originally. And when I moved here, I just had this amazing recognition of how supportive of the arts Kansas City is. So you found your people, they will be receptive for sure.

[00:27:05] Anthony Saldana: Now I have a question for you though. So, so you're a dancer, right? Okay. So I'm a single guy. Like what, what's a good dance move I should learn as a single guy?

[00:27:21] Jason Figueira: Just don't fall!

[00:27:23] Anthony Saldana: Cause I got two legs, you know?

[00:27:26] Jason Figueira: But you still, you would still manage to fall with two legs.

[00:27:31] Anthony Saldana: I would! I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to help the single male audience that are trying to get some help!

[00:27:39] Jason Figueira: Precisely.

[00:27:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Well, have you seen the movie "Hitch?"

[00:27:44] Anthony Saldana: Yes, yeah.

[00:27:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. You know the scene where Will Smith is teaching-- gosh, what's his name? The other main character-- anyway, how to dance? And he's like, "You live right here," and it's like a step touch, which is basically like a step to the side. And then you like put your other foot in. Yeah. I mean that, you just got to start somewhere, but honestly my husband's also not a dancer. He wouldn't consider himself to be, I think, in any way. But I think what worked for him was his willingness to try and just put himself out there. And if he looked a little silly, it didn't matter because I was just so impressed that he was trying.

[00:28:26] Anthony Saldana: Okay.

[00:28:27] Lindsey Dinneen: That's my advice. Just be you.

[00:28:31]Jason Figueira: So will Carlton's dance work too from "The Prince of Bel-Aire?"

[00:28:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh man.

[00:28:36]Anthony Saldana: He's been perfecting that for years.

[00:28:41] Jason Figueira: Look, you got to try somewhere.

[00:28:43] Lindsey Dinneen: You do. And honestly, I think it's the effort that matters more than the results. Let's be real. Yup. Yup. Oh my word. That was fantastic. Yes. And if I come up with any other life advice, I'll I'll pass it along, but that's, that's my initial thoughts. Oh my gosh. Well this has been so much fun. I would love to ask you to the same three questions that I ask all my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:29:15] Anthony Saldana: Sure.

[00:29:16] Jason Figueira: Sure.

[00:29:19]Lindsey Dinneen: All right, here we go. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:29:27] Anthony Saldana: Hmm, well, art can be a lot of things. It's something that you can make. You know, you can express yourself in so many different ways and it doesn't matter the material that you use or the sense that you use. You can make something in two dimensional, three dimensional. You can use your body as a dancer, like you, Lindsey, you're an artist, even though you say you can't do a drawing, but you can express yourself with your body. It's really about using your soul to basically express yourself to the world.

[00:30:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that. And I, I love your use of the word "soul" and just the way that you described it, because I always tell people that I dance because it inspires my soul. And I think that that is what's so special about art and, you know, that's why I dance. But other people paint or sing, or, or, yeah. Oh, I love that. Jason, how about you?

[00:30:31] Jason Figueira: I would say I would, I, I remember someone from one of our Queens College courses, he was a Chinese film historian, and he had said that about films that they were kind of like a window into a director's mind. And I think that art in a way is a advanced form of communication. It's trying to communicate something, not just with words, but with sounds, with touch, something that it can appeal to almost all five senses. And I think it's like a window into someone's experience that it goes beyond just saying spoken dialogue we use every day. It's really helps other people. It helps bring them into an environment where an artist would like them to be your image, shaping a whole new reality in a way. And it's amazing what you can do with art. I mean, just from one picture, someone can leave their present day and be transported into a whole new one. So art, yeah, I would say is a very highly advanced form of communication.

[00:31:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:31:52] Anthony Saldana: Tell the truth. Just tell your own truth and also try to find your own. I know that stories have been told and retold, but try to find your own angle to, to put your own expression on, on a different take on a story. But I, I really believe in, in being honest in your work.

[00:32:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I agree. Jason?

[00:32:20] Jason Figueira: I think persistence is also something very important for an artist to have, because when you have a passion to tell a story, you don't give up telling it. There are a lot of obstacles that come up in any different kind-- dancing, whether it's painting, whether it's film or so many things that come up in your way. But as long as you have your passion to tell a story, you will overcome those obstacles. And I'd say, you know, there's an expression: a genius is 90% hard work and 10% ideas. So really it's about how much work you put into it. So I would say persistence is absolutely key for an artist to have, is absolutely a key quality rather, for an artist to have.

[00:33:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree. It's all about the grit behind the passion. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I remember hearing one time somebody said that ideas without action are worthless. And I was kind of taken aback and I thought, "Oh, ouch, that hurts." Like, "Excuse you." But the reality is he was right. You know, you have to have both. So awesome. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive. And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:34:07]Anthony Saldana: I like metaphors. I love putting in my documentaries open-ended metaphors so that people can-- I don't like to have voiceovers to tell the audience what they should feel. And that's something that Jason and I, we've argued about many times over the last couple of years where he likes to just, Jason will say, "I want to tell them how, you know this..." and a great voiceover. And I said, "Nope, not me." So I hope that answers your question, Lindsey.

[00:34:40]Lindsey Dinneen: I like that. And, but Jason, how about you? It sounds like you might have a slightly different perspective too.

[00:34:45]Jason Figueira: I think it depends on what kind of work an artist is doing. Some artwork is best left exclusive, you know, that's where their strength comes from. I think it mostly depends on what kind of art that artist is producing. From my style, I like to explain everything because I like to hear myself talk, but the point is, it depends on the project, really, for some projects being inclusive makes it stronger. So it works being an inclusive piece, but there are some pieces that are best left exclusive. So I think it really depends on what kind of project and artist is working on.

[00:35:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you both again, so very much for being here today. I'm so excited to learn about what you all do and also then to, you know, get to experience your art and the way that you're supporting other artists. I think that's really important and I commend you and thank you for what you're doing, and I'm just so excited to continue to follow your work, because obviously this is a awesome partnership that's just going to continue to produce wonderful things. So thank you for bringing art to the world. I appreciate it.

[00:36:08] Anthony Saldana: Thank you for having us. We will definitely send you that movie.

[00:36:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and I highly encourage you to check out their work, and we will catch you next time.

[00:36:33] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

View Details

In today's episode, I welcome Sabrina Osso! Sabrina is the founder of Osso Safe and she offers educational workshops about home violence and how to see the warning signs. She is also a dancer, dance teacher, choreographer, and a TEDx speaker. In this episode, she shares about learning to dance as an adult in NYC, the hundreds of auditions she attended, and her own healing journey. (Fun fact: the cover image is of a photo of Sabrina in her own-woman show, "Home Sweet Home?")

Get in touch with Sabrina Osso: https://www.ossosafe.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 57 - Sabrina Osso

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sabrina Osso, who is the founder of Osso Safe, which I absolutely love the name of her company. And I can't wait to dive in and explore more about how all that came to be. She is also a professional dancer and has had lots of experience in the professional dance world. And so it's just my absolute delight to have you here today, Sabrina. So thanks for joining us.

[00:01:05] Sabrina Osso: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be on your show, on this podcast, and I'm looking forward to our interview.

[00:01:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, I would love if you would start by maybe sharing a little bit more about yourself, how you got started, maybe a little bit about your background and what you're up to these days.

[00:01:25] Sabrina Osso: Sure, sure. I've had years of on and off therapy to just open the conversation and it's just healing, especially when it comes to what I do and relating it to dance. But I am a survivor of violence. My father beat my mother on a regular basis and I could not even think about dance growing up. I had no one to take me and I loved it. I, I had it in my heart and my soul, but I had to put it on the back burner the way, way back burner. So, but I always had it in me and it wasn't until I moved out, actually that I kind of caught up on my life, if you will. And I, I moved out, I, I graduated from college. I did what I was supposed to do, quote unquote. But I found it very unsatisfactory. I have a computer science degree. And I, I did the corporate thing and, and then my therapist said, "You need to read a book." And that book is called, "Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow." And I, when I read that book, I said, "I love to dance. I'm a dancer. I have to get myself into class."

[00:02:37]So that's what I did. I totally immersed and submerged myself in the dance world in New York City. I was shuffling between Alvin Ailey, Steps, and Broadway Dance Center taking 12 classes a week, auditioning heavily. And then the gigs started happening. I was starting to get gigs and it was very exciting, a lot of rejection, a lot of rejection. And, but I was in the city and it was so exciting and I met so many people along the way. And the teachers that I was taking were very well-established, to say the least. So, and then I began writing my one-woman show called "Home Sweet Home, Question Mark" and I, and basically I play different women being abused. She goes to her good place. That's where the dancing comes in, but then she's pulled back into the terror of violence, but the show ends very strong, very empowering. And I did a lot of research for that show because I wanted it to be entertaining as well as educational. And I could not believe the statistics that I was finding about violence abuse. And I said to myself, "I have to make this into a business. I have to make this into a bonafide business with paid services and products that will really help people, whether you're going through violence or not." So Osso Safe was born from really my one-woman show.

[00:04:10] And I did my one woman show. I was dance. I was teaching dance, actually also I taught dance for 10 years from Pre-K all the way up to high school through adult level ballet, jazz, tap, theater, Latin, lyrical, hip hop. And I, I performed the show with my dance students. I had one or two dance studio owners that allowed me to do that, which I'm very grateful for. The synopsis of the birth of Osso Safe and my dance background, how I started, and I bring dance into schools whenever I do my workshops at university, schools, I find that this taboo subject-- make it un-taboo by introducing the performance element to it because students will digest it better and it's more palatable if you will.

[00:05:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense to me. I, I think that one of the things that I value the most about arts is the fact that it opens conversations that might otherwise either not take place or be extremely uncomfortable to bring up. But when you introduce it through the arts, it has a much more natural conversation that can follow after that. I really like that. I think that's, that's great, what you're doing is so fantastic and it's so needed. And I really appreciate the fact that you're, you're using something that obviously was extraordinarily difficult-- I mean, to put it mildly in your own life-- and then taking that and transforming it into something, just so needed and helpful. So thank you for, for doing that. That's, that's huge. And I I'm, I'm very grateful that you do that.

[00:05:56] Sabrina Osso: Thank you, Lindsey. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, you've obviously had, there are so many parts of your story I'm so excited to dig into, but you know, you were talking about the dance aspect and so it's, it sounds like-- and please correct me if I'm wrong-- that really the majority of your training came as an adult rather than as a child growing up. Is that correct?

[00:06:22] Sabrina Osso: Correct, correct. Yes. I, I wish I was one of those people that started at five years old, three years old, even, or 10 years old. And I just was not one of those people. Like I said, I, I had to put it on the back burner and really-- oh, it was very painful. I just, I couldn't even think about it. It wasn't allowed in my household. And, and then when I, I started training, I started taking classes. I was so free, you know, and I was also heavily clubbing in the city, to say the least. So because my, my favorite, favorite music to dance to was techno, techno, house, tribal, and in the city at the time all the clubs were, they were huge, huge. They were a big, big following. I mean, thousands of people would go to these clubs from Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and the biggest night, Saturday, and even the raves.

[00:07:23] And so I was dancing after class and I was dancing in class. I was catching up on my life, like I said, and I was so free, and dancing is just such a beautiful, expressive form of movement. And it's so freeing and, and I would see the students that I would teach, you know, we would do the recitals and order the costumes and, and do the rehearsals. And I'm like, "Wow, I'm their teacher and I'm doing for them what I wish I had for myself," you know? And then the different styles and being on a stage and teaching them backstage and, you know, calming them if they were nervous. And so even though I didn't have it when I was young, I kind of caught up with it later on.

[00:08:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it sounds like you really just dove in headfirst, totally immersed yourself and did a, basically a deep dive, intense study into all things dance. So kudos to you for that. That's, that takes some guts. I mean, I think any new endeavor takes guts, but you know, especially in a very competitive city, like New York City, yeah, I just, I commend your, your bravery for just diving in and going for it and seeing what happens. That's great. And then I'm curious, you know, you said that you started auditioning and started getting some, you know, really cool opportunities. What is your most memorable gig that you did?

[00:09:00]Sabrina Osso: I mean, I would have to say I did matinee theater. I did a small tour with a Latin pop artist, similar to, not nearly as big as Ricky Martin, but he kind of really emulated him. And so he did same style, you know, Latin mixing Latin with English and his songs, and the Latin choreography I performed in Lamb's Theater in New York City. And I was told-- or we were told, I should say-- Mark Twain performed there. He did readings there as well as a few other famous people perform there. And, and so that was very memorable. It was a Greek play called "Epimenides.". And I did, I think I did-- if not all of the choreography-- most of the choreography for the show.

[00:09:49] And you know, when you know that famous people have been at that theater, it, it kind of just is-- it's extra inspiration, you know, like you were on stage with these people that had a lot of influence, you know, in the world, performing, acting, singing, dancing. So, so that, that's one of my memorable performances. And I performed the most with my show, "Home Sweet Home," because when I performed it, I was asked, "Oh, wow, that was so great." And I've had to do that like around different venues where I would pull different styles depending upon what the person wanted. I would say, "Sure, I have that. I have a musical theater piece or I have a flamenco piece." Oh. And I did a Latin piece as well, partnering with my, my partner and that, that was the music that I chose and very salsa, very Mambo music as far as the theme.

[00:10:51] And just all the auditioning that I did, Lindsey, I mean-- holy cow, no exaggeration-- I think I went on at least 750 auditions. I'm not even exaggerating. It was between 750 and a thousand auditions. And that includes sending out the headshots, sometimes having to do just appearing and being cut, like, just because you're not the right type, quote unquote. And, and that just really thickens your skin, like nothing else, especially in New York City, you know? I mean, I was everywhere. I was everywhere-- the five boroughs, I think I went as far as Connecticut-- definitely Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, Manhattan, certainly and being on all those stages just to audition. I mean, holy cow. It was grueling. I mean, all sorts of weather, waiting outside, to just have a chance to be seen, to be heard to, to perform improv. I think I even tried out for SNL at the time, hundreds and hundreds of people lined up outside. And, and you had to do skits on the, on the spot or some kind of monologue, according to the theme that it was and, or the theme that they asked for. And so like I said, I totally submerged and immerse myself in, in that world. And, but yeah, I hope I answered your question.

[00:12:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, for sure. Lots of memorable things, of course, as, as I'm sure any artist would agree with. And so, I'm curious, so to write your one-woman show, of course, I would imagine that that was kind of a, probably a really difficult challenge in some ways, because not only are you writing something that's really meaningful to you and important to you, but it's something that happened to you. So how was that writing process? Was it difficult? Was it liberating? Was it, what was it like?

[00:12:59]Sabrina Osso: Yes. A good word. Liberating and healing, I would say. And, and, hmm. Yeah, liberating and healing. It, it was automatic, really. It was automatic. I, I mean, after auditioning and getting gigs and, and I have to say, I found the choreography that I was doing-- not that it wasn't satisfying me-- but I said to myself, I want to do my own choreography. I want to do what feels good to me, you know, because when you're doing choreography, other people's choreography, it's other people's choreography. So, I just said to myself, "I just want to write, I just want to see what happens." So I kind of just, I didn't have any expectations, really.

[00:13:44] I just said, "Let me just write my one woman show." And I knew quite a few people that did that also, you know, auditioning and performing in gigs. And I would meet this one and that one saying, "Oh yeah, I'm working on my one man show or my one woman show," when it's mainly singing and acting, some dancing or, or mainly acting, or, and I said, "You know what? Let me, let me try that. Let me just try that." So I just started writing, I just started writing and I knew it had to be very personal and, and something different, you know? I didn't want it to be what typically was done out there as far as you know like "Brigadoon" or "Carousel" or "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers," or I wanted it to be more raw and, and very personal.

[00:14:39] So I just started writing and it came naturally actually once I started writing one scene and, and, and doing the choreography, which I enjoyed a lot and acting comes naturally to me when it's my own stuff, if you will. Like I said, I played different women being abused, so that came, I scripted it all. I knew what I wanted to, that what I wanted the ending to be. I wanted it to be strong and empowering and to actually say that we have to do things differently. And, and to show that this steals your life, you know, that the abuse and violence steals your life. And I think I was effective in doing that in the show. And, and I love doing the choreography but I knew I had to catch up. You know, I wasn't one of those people that started dancing, like I said, at four or five years old, 10 years old, even. So I had to take teachers that I-- I needed for them to pay attention to me. And that would catapult me to kind of save on the years that I lost not dancing.

[00:15:56] So there was two particular teachers: Phil Black and Kat Wildish. Phil Black was a master dancer, master dance teacher at the time he passed away in 2015, but he, he could take anyone off the street and make them into a dancer in a year. And, but he expected not a hundred percent. He expected a thousand percent in class, and he was great. He taught you-- you really got your money's worth in class with him-- because he taught lyrical jazz, theater jazz, Latin jazz, swing jazz. He saw it as all jazz. So he put all the different styles and made it into one class and every day was a different theme. So you learned all of these styles in his class and so I took him religiously. I mean, I was in his class all the time and, and then Kat Wildish. She was one of my main ballet teachers and, and she's amazing. She paid a lot of, a lot of attention to me. And so with the show, I was able to do the choreography cause I knew all the styles. I learned them and I put them in my show and it just kind of flowed and I, at the end of it, I felt, as you said, liberated, healed. The healing is always a process. You're not a hundred percent healed, but you are continuously healing if you allow it, if you do your homework. So, and, and like I said, dancing is just-- it's my essence. It's my essence, truly. And I'm grateful for that. Yeah. So, so thank you for asking that too. I appreciate that question.

[00:17:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, and so now you have this one woman show and also now you have your business. And so that includes you actually speaking, right? You're going to different locations and speaking with people or groups. Are you still actively doing that now? Has it had to pivot a little bit with the times and more virtual or how is that all going for you?

[00:18:16] Sabrina Osso: Yes. Ever since COVID hit, things are really-- and still--actually kind of like at a standstill right now. So I've had to just readjust and see. I know it'll be picking up soon because as I understand it in September, I think the schools are going to be fully reopened, especially with more and more vaccinations being done. People are feeling safer. And so we are working on that to, to get things rescheduled. I have proposals out there and, and the feedback that I've been getting is that we should be up and running again towards the end of the summer into September, October, and yes, I've done some virtual performances, if you will, or virtual workshops. But like I said, it's been, it's been sporadic due to COVID. And with COVID, in a way-- and I'm, and I'm not trying to be offensive by, by any means-- it has kind of opened the eyes.

[00:19:23] I'm kind of grateful for COVID to a certain degree because homes must be safe. Your place of residence must be safe and COVID has highlighted that in a very big way. Home violence-- I, I prefer to say home violence versus domestic violence-- home violence has spiked across the globe ever since COVID hit on an enormous levels and your home should be your sanctuary. It shouldn't be a war zone. It shouldn't be hell. It should be your, your comfort, your, your most safe place. And unfortunately for so many of us, it isn't, and COVID has definitely highlighted that. And I, I just want to reiterate that violence steals your life. Like I said, violence, any abuse, chaos, disfunction. And, and what a misfortune, what a misfortune I have to say. Like for myself with dance. I should have been dancing at three, four years old, you know, and and I'm not blaming my parents. I had to let go of that because I made the best of it.

[00:20:40] You know, I, I didn't start dancing till much later in my early, early twenties and I had to catch up and I, I actually have had people say, "Holy cow, Sabrina, I did start dancing at five years old and I haven't auditioned as much as you have." And I say to them, "Really? You, you started dancing at five years old?" And they were afraid to audition. I found that surprising from some people that stay in that cocoon of being in your dance school when, you know, cause it's kind of like a second home, right, being in that dance studio and you grow up there. Cause I taught in a good seven of them and, and it's true. That's like your second home. You go home, but your dance studio-- if you start from three, four years old and you're there through high school-- it's literally a second home and your second family. And, and I guess for, for some, it's your true family because of home is not a good place. It's your getaway.

[00:21:47]We try to, as far as the education and what we teach in our workshops, is to be preventative. And whatever we teach on to a high school student, obviously we're not going to teach the same things or the same way to someone, a student in the sixth grade or fifth grade. It's modified, but the message is there. We teach on warning signs, what constitutes abuse, to give students tools to practice safety, that when they are of dating age, you do not do what mom and dad are doing. You do different if you are in a abusive environment. We're very positive though. And that's where dance, we bring dance and acting and encouraging the performance aspect of it. So. Yeah, so with, well, so all of these components come into play. It's kind of like what I did with my show. I do in my workshops to make it entertaining and empowering and educational at schools and universities.

[00:22:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And for any of our listeners who might want to connect with you and even book a workshop or something like that, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:23:06] Sabrina Osso: Yes, absolutely. My website is ossosafe.com. That's OSSO, and then the word safe, S A F E.com. My direct email is sabrina@ossosafe.com. I am on all the major social media platforms of Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Alignable, Instagram. I did do a TEDx Talk and that is broadcast on the internet. It's under Sabrina Osso. So that's also on the website. But yeah, those are the major components of, of how to contact us.

[00:23:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing your stories and all of the ways that you've taken difficult things and, and transform them, and the liberation that can come from that. Thank you so much for doing that. I so appreciate what you do and the way that you bring hope to other people. And I always ask my guests the same three questions, if you're okay with that.

[00:24:05] Sabrina Osso: Sure. Sure. Absolutely.

[00:24:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:24:14]Sabrina Osso: Freedom. Freedom, and freedom is a two way street. I'm free and you're free. So that should be without harm, without anything negative. It is, it is freedom of expression. Just freedom.

[00:24:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:24:37]Sabrina Osso: It goes back to freedom to liberate. I like that word that you used during our interview: to, to liberate, liberate all emotions, whether it be happiness, sadness, anger. It could be, yeah, sadness, happiness, joy, liberation of all emotions, because once you release it, then you can get to the next level. So, yeah, liberation, I would say.

[00:25:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:25:42]Sabrina Osso: Hmm. Huh. Good question, Lindsey! I've never been asked that and in that way, I would say, well, maybe both. I would say, can I answer both are fine. I'm a proponent of both, really inclusive and exclusive because like even with my own show, I titled it, there was a description. And, and if I didn't do that, then yes, I guess the audience would have a different experience, which is correct also. So I would say I would be for both. If I could say that.

[00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Perfect. Well, thank you again so much for joining me this morning, Sabrina. I really appreciate it. And I just commend you for the work you're doing. I think it's incredibly important and inspiring, and I would highly encourage our listeners to check out her website and social media and follow what she's doing and yeah, watch that TEDx Talk, which is super cool as well, and definitely support what she's doing because it's, it's important and valuable. And I appreciate it. So thanks again, Sabrina.

[00:27:00] Sabrina Osso: Oh, Lindsey, thank you so much for this opportunity. I really enjoyed talking dance and performing in the arts with you. It's not very often that I'm on a podcast where I'm speaking about that. So I appreciate our time together and to talk art and dance and performing. And this was truly wonderful.

[00:27:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Yeah. Well, I, yes, thank you again so much. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two ,and we will catch you next time.

[00:27:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Sandy Rodriguez! Sandy's day job is as a court interpreter, but her artistic experience goes way beyond one job title. She is also a painter, author, amatuer winemaker, and more, and she shares about the power of the arts in her own life and in the lives of those she's witnessed experience art. (Fun fact: the cover image is of Sandy's award-winning acrylic pour painting, "Lavender Fields.")

Get in touch with Sandy Rodriguez: https://www.instagram.com/choosetoprevail/

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Episode 56 - Sandy Rodriguez

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sandy Rodriguez. She is a communications expert and an artist, and has a really cool story to share with us today-- probably many stories to share with us today. So thank you so very much for being here, Sandy. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:54] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm a big fan of your show and it's such an honor to be here.

[00:01:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, thank you. Well, I would just love if you would share just maybe a little bit about your background and how you got involved with art and also, just a little bit more about you and what you're up to.

[00:01:14] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Well, I think that I have always, always been very much drawn to arts. But I got into it a little bit more seriously in very recent years that was a function, I think, of having made a big career because for many years, I used to work as an editorial coordinator for one of the formal newspapers in Latin America. I was living in Mexico City at the time. And while that career is very fascinating and I was very passionate about that, it's also all consuming. You're really never off the clock. So at a certain point in time, I decided to make a shift, and I moved to Los Angeles where I currently live. And here I began working in a totally different field, which is court interpreting.

[00:02:04] And although there's, you know, a very high barrier to entry and it's, it's, to be honest, a very grueling job. It is a situation where you're home by six, it's a normal eight to five job. So that gives me time to engage in other activities. So I was able to become an amateur winemaker, I would say. Well, to do a little bit more writing, I wrote a book of my own, recently published, and I got into art a little bit more seriously, and that was fabulous. It's been a very life-changing. So something that used to be a hobby somehow has become more of a-- well, without saying that I'm fully professional, that's not necessarily the case because I'm not necessarily, you know, marketing my, my paintings and such, but I'm doing it in a, in a much more-- let's say structured --way. And I'm very happy about that, Lindsey.

[00:02:58] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. Yeah. And, oh my goodness, what an interesting career you've had. I mean, just both, you know, positions are so interesting and yeah, it does sound like, like you mentioned, it might be grueling at times, but again, at least it allows you to do other things on the side. And I, I love your realness with that because I think there are a lot of artists who might feel like, "Oh, I'm not legitimate or something if it's not my full-time gig." And I think, I don't think there's any truth behind that. And so I really like that you've done both!

[00:03:33] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. And I think there's something interesting. I do agree with what you're saying that some people feel that unless it is your, your absolute only activity, you might not be like you say "legit" in, in some way. But on the other hand, I do find that many creative people in many creative fields-- and by that, I mean, acting, music, art, all kinds of things, filmmaking-- normally they have these titles that include a lot of hyphens or slashes because people actually do... Creative people sometimes do a lot of things. For instance, I remember one of your recent guests that was a writer and a Broadway actress, and she was also a tour guide. I also remember another person you had on the show that did podcasts and they were also into acting and writing. So a lot of people do a lot of things, and I think that that is also something that, that can happen. It's not only the person that says "I only am in school, so we need to devote myself to this." There's this other style of person that is interested in a lot of things. And they have, we have, our hands up in a lot of different projects and fields.

[00:04:44] And I think that is on the one hand-- it's, it's very interesting people that are into many fields. Some that do many things. Firstly, they have more places or sources to draw from when they actually do engage in a creative process, by which I mean maybe if you're a painter, but you're also a doctor and you're also a dancer, you might have more sources of inspiration than if you're not. So that's, it's interesting like that. And also the thing is that creative people bring their creativity into whatever line of work they're in, no matter what it is, even if you think well, "That doesn't really make sense. It doesn't sound, you know, within the realm of art or creativity to me." Maybe the person is, I don't know-- well, for instance, a tour guide-- maybe you might say, "Well, that's something that you need to, you know, base yourself on, on history. And there's not much margin for creativity." But you know, they're kind of fazed because a person might have a, a gift for storytelling or it's interesting, I think that, that you have both types of personality in the art community: the one, the person that wants to be only focused on art, and the person that is, that spreads their creativity across a number of different fields. So there's a little bit of both, I think.

[00:06:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think you're absolutely right. Sort of I've noticed that creativity seems to beget creativity, in a way. So when you are exercising that muscle, then it, it becomes stronger and might go into many different avenues, like you were saying, instead of necessarily --you know, I think there are times when it's important to focus on one path, you know, and really go after that one thing, hone those skills-- but like you said, it's so much fun because you can dabble in all sorts of things and learn the joy from each one, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Well, okay. Something you said earlier totally caught my attention and I was like, "Wait a second. We can't just skim over that." Okay. So you make wine?

[00:06:48] Sandy Rodriguez: Yeah. Well, I think that's also a creative thing. Yes. So a couple of years ago, I started making wine and let's say in a serious matter, although it's an amateur only, I made a good Merlot, and then I made an excellent Zinfandel deal the following year. And when I say excellent, I'm not even making it up. I actually won a bronze medal for, for the Zinfandel, which I made alongside of a former boyfriend. We got into that and it was fantastic. I bought grapes from vineyard in the Paso Robles region. And we just went for it and we, we made a very, very good wine. It's also a very interesting field for, for creative people and just in general. So it's a hobby that very few people might engage in because you might think, "Oh, you need to own your own vineyard. Or it might be extremely expensive or very difficult." And, well, that's not really the case. I mean, you can actually source the grapes from existing vineyards. You don't really need to own one.

[00:07:49]And as for the process, interestingly enough, the winemaking community is very welcoming, even to newcomers or people that are just hobbyists, they're, they're very nice people overall, and they're very open to giving you tips and, and their secret techniques. So it's a lot of fun. And in more recent months, I've been trying to do something that I don't know if you could even call it wine. But I've been using wine-making techniques, not with grapes, but with just random fruit juices. I've tried it with a cherry juice, cranberry, apple. And the result is, well, I don't know if you could call it wine per se, but it's, it's just a very fun activity. And once you're, you're done, I don't have a commercial permit, but I can give samples out to friends or I can drink it myself. So it's, it's just very fun. Very, very fun.

[00:08:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that is so cool. Well, and I love the fact that you were talking about how sometimes it might seem like something, an activity, that has some barriers to it, but-- and I would have thought the same thing honestly, it would never have crossed my mind to, to try it-- but now I'm kinda like, "Ooh, maybe I will."

[00:08:59] Sandy Rodriguez: I think you should! And well, let me tell you, here's the thing-- it's very hard to scale up, but it's very easy to just start small. For example, the smallest you can go is making wine from a kit, which is still wine. I mean, it's not really like making brownies from a brownie mix. It's more like, like making a meal from a meal kit. You really do have to put in some labor and it's, it's interesting. And you can buy a kit from many wine-making sources online or in person, and you can make maybe like, five bottles of wine. I think that's the smallest amount that you can make. Now, if you want to scale up a little, the next possible step is what I did with the Zinfandel. You can purchase at least a hundred pounds of grapes from existing vineyards and that will yield about 30 bottles of wine. So it's a big leap and I wouldn't necessarily recommend scaling up once you've done that, because then you would probably need to go commercial and invest way more time and money into, you know, getting a license and such. But I think the 100 pound amount is, is great. I mean, that's, that's impressive enough to dazzle your friends. It's just very fun. I would recommend that to anybody that's interested in, in an unusual hobby.

[00:10:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun and also, oh my goodness, congratulations on the bronze metal or a bronze award. How cool is that? Did you submit it to like a... I don't even know how that process works. That's so cool.

[00:10:36]Sandy Rodriguez: It was actually a little surprise for me. I was-- so most of the bottles from that particular batch, my ex-boyfriend kept them and he kindly entered the, the wine into this contest, but I wasn't even aware until we won. So that was a very pleasant surprise. Yeah. But I wasn't really all that surprised because I mean, modesty aside, it was really great quality and that's not only because-- I mean, the technique we followed was, was fantastic-- but because the grapes themselves lend themselves to making a wonderful wine. Wine, for the most part, is dependent on, on the grapes you select initially. And these were great. So, I mean, it was, it was surely going to come out very well in the end.

[00:11:21]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's so cool. Okay. Well, I know you've recently written a book, and I would love to hear more about the process of that, because I know that's an undertaking, but also just maybe more about what it's about and, and that's a whole art form in itself.

[00:11:37] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Well, this is a book that is described by many as a conversation between the reader and the very supportive friend, and the conversation leads to the reader feeling more at peace and more confident. So it's a book that really has those two goals in mind. It's a book that is meant to leave the reader feeling more at peace and more confident in many ways, self confident and confident in the fact that things will always turn out alright. And this is a book that I wrote, it's called "Choose to Prevail," subtitle is "Unexpected Insights to Help You Overcome Challenges," and it's meant to help the reader overcome challenges big and small. When I say big, I mean, things such as, for instance, the death of a loved one, for example, or smaller things, which could be a difficulty when expressing oneself in public or maybe physical insecurities, that kind of thing.

[00:12:35] And in fact, it's a book that has been it's being gifted to people that join this company called Heart of Hollywood as members. This is a company that encompasses actors, dancers, models, et cetera. And the CEO and owner felt that the book offered value to people in the creative fields, in an entertainment, because I mean, this is a field where rejection is, you know, it's part of the very nature. So people do need to develop more confidence, rock-solid confidence, more faith in the fact that things can and will turn out fine. So it was very flattering for me to see that this company that deals with people in entertainment and the arts is now kindly giving its, its members this school. So that was, that was something that was very, very nice for me. And also I think that the book allowed me to express myself in, in ways that go beyond writing.

[00:13:39]I was mentioning to you that recently I got a little bit more serious into, into arts. Let me backtrack a little. When I was a little girl, I had a tremendous passion for drawing, sketching. I would always have scrap paper at the ready and the pen or pencils or colored pencils or anything, markers, anything, because it was a tremendous compulsion that I had. So much so, Lindsey, that there was a time that I broke my right arm-- and I'm right-handed-- and instead of saying, "Okay, I'll just wait until I heal so that I can continue." No, I trained myself to draw with my left hand because I simply could not go a day without drawing or sketching. It was just a passion for me. I simply could not stop. So strangely, even though I was so, so passionate about this, I think when I became like maybe a, an older teenager and then a young adult, that kind of stopped being as interesting or important to me. I don't know why.

[00:14:41] I don't think that there was a specific incident. Maybe I just got too busy with life. I don't know, but it was something that I kind of stopped doing. And then in recent years, I would say maybe three years ago, I kind of got back into it, but this time around, it was not only drawing that I was interested in, but I wanted to explore painting. My mom is an architect and also an artist, much more serious and rigorous than me. And I think seeing her recent paintings was really something that inspired me. So I started experimenting with acrylics and I started painting, and the same compulsion that, that I had felt-- this little girl-- when it came to drawing, I felt the same thing. I had to go out and buy just a bunch of canvases and paintbrushes and paint and everything had to be ready because maybe I was in bed, and I was like, "Nope, I need to get up. I need to paint this thing that I'm thinking of." And that's, that's something that happened to me recently.

[00:15:41] And because it was kind of new to me, I was not used to acrylics or painting per se, drawing and painting are not-- not at least in my mind-- not quite the same thing. They don't even use the same part of the brain, is what I feel. But the compulsion was very similar and I did want to experiment as much as I could. And I also discovered this technique or style called acrylic pouring, which is a fluid, fluid style of painting that has its roots in something called "accidental painting" or "fluid arch" that was developed by a Mexican muralist by the name of David Alfaro Siqueiros who actually taught and also influenced Jackson Pollock at some point. Now modern day, acrylic pouring is mostly considered a craft rather than art, because there are very specific techniques that people can pick up on, on YouTube and whatnot. Not to say that that doesn't have value because it does. I mean, of course, it's interesting that people can, can just start off their journey through tutorials, of course. But I wanted to, to explore that technique in ways that were not like accidental but rather more planned, and I also wanted to do it in ways that were not in line with existing techniques, but rather just experiment. And I did, and one of my acrylic pours actually ended up being the cover for the book, so that it was very cool.

[00:17:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Well, and I love the fact that this was such a passion for you that-- oh, well, first of all, that you taught yourself to do that with your left hand, I mean, that is so impressive, I can't even draw with my right hand. I mean, I can, but I can't do what you do. It's not like a fine art thing. I can, you know, play around. But anyway, so that is super impressive. But also I just love that you've picked it back up, and it was fun to hear you talk about how you just want to be at the ready so that, you know, when inspiration strikes per se, you can respond. And that's so cool. Well, I, you know, I have a little bit of an advantage here at knowing you had mentioned before, about a specific thing that happened where you entered a contest as a kid. Do you want to tell that story?

[00:18:06] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Yes. So when I was little, I mean, it was an obsession. I would say that maybe it was a little bit crazy, but I also like to, to draw not only things that came from my imagination or for watching the world around me. But I also like to draw or try to replicate characters. Like for instance, I would like to read, say Archie comics and I would draw the Archie characters or people that looked vaguely like the Archie characters, but in different situations with different clothing, different storylines. I made my own comments. And I think that that's also something that maybe some parents will say, "No, I don't want my kids to, to be reading comic books and let alone, you know, copying things that they might see elsewhere," because that doesn't sound glamorous or, or, you know. But in reality, it's a, it's a good segue. I think it doesn't matter what the entry way into art or reading is, I mean, I think that's, it also has value.

[00:19:06] In any case, I was very used to doing that and I heard about this contest that was going to be sponsored by Kellogg's where you had to draw you know, the Kellogg's characters doing different things for different situations. And I submitted a couple of, of drawings of Tony the Tiger and Snap, Crackle, and Pop making cereal or, you know, just doing the things of that, of that sort. And I actually won this gigantic adult sized 10 speed bicycle. So that was fantastic. That was so, so cool. And I do love entering contests. In fact, last year I also entered an acrylic paint pouring contest. This was online. And I also won a first place. This was not something that was selected by judges, but rather through votes. And a lot of people voted for it, for my painting. It was something called "Lavender Fields" where I tried to use a cooling techniques to replicate a lavender field in France that I had once visited. So it's, it's really very interesting. I would encourage people of all ages to enter contests because it's just very motivating. It's fun. It's a fun activity. I think it's, it's, it's something that-- I mean, if you don't win, that's fine-- but if you do win, it's just like a fun story.

[00:20:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it is. Well, congratulations for both of those things, because that's so fun.

[00:20:30] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you.

[00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: And I'll definitely have to see a picture of that painting as it sounds gorgeous.

[00:20:36] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, thank you so much. Well, it's actually interesting because again, as I was telling you, acrylic pouring normally as taught in tutorials or in classes is really very techniquey, but I didn't want to go with things that everybody does, and everybody knows how to do, when everybody knows how, how to replicate. I wanted to do something that was more-- not, not a hundred percent accidental, but rather with a certain degree of planning. So I thought, "Okay, what do I need to do? How do I need to tilt the canvas?" The way this is done is pretty interesting. You use acrylic paints that are either pre-liquified or that you yourself make more liquid by the use of something called the pouring medium. So you have these-- let's say sort of liquid acrylic paints that you place on a canvas, and you tilt the canvas to and fro to the sides, et cetera, in order to make the paint move, and you can achieve very specific effects. It can look like marble. It can look abstract. You can look like a seascape depending on the color zone and the way you're moving the canvas or how you're tilting it, or certain other factors you might add to the paint.

[00:21:48] But I wanted to do something a little bit different. So I really gave it a lot of thought, like, "What would happen if I do this? If I do that?" And I ended up using a liquid acrylic paint. And even though the technique I used was that tilting the canvas, moving the canvas, I was able to guide the painting into looking the way that I had previously planned it to go. So it was, it was pretty fun. It was, it was an interesting experiment and I'm really glad that people liked it. I also think that this pouring technique is very satisfying. I mean, it feels so relaxing when you're doing that. And that's also something that I mentioned in the book. I mentioned how art can truly modify your moods in, in very dramatic ways.

[00:22:36] For example, if you're feeling a dip in your self-confidence or you're feeling a lack of energy, I can certainly say, and I've proven it myself, bring out your canvas and you provide yourself with paints in reds and burgundies and all of these exciting colors. And you turn up, you know, very intense music and you start painting. I mean, you feel very replenished and very confident by the time you're done. And by the same token, if you're feeling a little bit stressed or frazzled, and that happened to many people during the beginnings of COVID, and actually when COVID started, I went out and I got myself all the supplies that I needed. I started painting seascapes, another very tranquility- inducing landscapes, and blues and teals and grays. And, and it really is very soothing. I mean, just the type of brushstroke soft and it's, it's very therapeutic, I think.

[00:23:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, that is really inspiring. And I, I love the fact that you have taken this opportunity, you know, taking something that is a challenging time, but used it for creativity and as an outlet. And I couldn't agree with you more about how art has the power to really impact your mood in a great way, and your outlook on life, and like you said, even self-confidence through it. So it's a powerful thing. And yeah, I, yes. I always encourage everyone, I know everyone has creativity in them and it's just a matter of finding the type of art that speaks to you, you know? Well, I would love, I'm sure you have probably many of these thoughts, but is there any particular memories that sort of stand out as moments that matter when either you watched somebody experience your art, or you experienced somebody else's art, and you just thought, "I've got to remember this moment."

[00:24:36] Sandy Rodriguez: I think there are several. I mean, as I was telling you, my mom is, is an artist, far more accomplished than, than myself. And sometimes I see things that she has made, or I see things during the process of them being completed. And it's just very exciting. I mean, it's, you know how Tom Sawyer, when he's white washing a fence and all of his friends think, "Oh, that looks super fun!" And it's really not. But the friends think that, well, in this case, I feel it's the same compulsion. You see somebody wielding a paintbrush and you say, "Oh, I want to do that." Luckily, unlike in the Tom Sawyer story, it really is fun. It's not unpleasant. It's really fascinating. But that's the thing. Just seeing somebody as they're painting, at least to me, it feels like I want to do that myself. It's just very tempting. It's one of those things that, that really speak to me. So I think whenever I see her or other artists in front of their easel or doing the things that they're doing when they're in the middle of adding a little tree or painting a, an eye or adding something to the sky, you know, I really want to do it myself.

[00:25:45] It's just something that's, that's very tempting to me. And also, as to the other situation, moments that I feel that I've remembered very clearly where people have liked what I've done. Yeah. Like for instance, I started painting this series of wine bottles recently, I guess also inspired by my wine taking things. But I, I think that wine bottles are very fun to paint because firstly, depending on the colors you choose on the placement, they can look very festive or very depressing, and both are interesting things to express. You can, you can express despair and anguish through a wine bottle, an empty wine bottle or half full one. And likewise, you can express a feeling of celebration. So they're, they're interesting. It's the same object, but it can give off two very different vibes depending on how you choose to paint them. And I made that series. And surprisingly, I think it's one, one of the series that I've made that people respond to the most.

[00:26:47]I've sold a few, and a lot of people have reached out in regards to those. I think that's interesting. I think that's something that, for whatever reason, spoke to people, so that was nice. And also there was another thing that, that happened. So during COVID, the very first day that I heard the expression, "social distancing," I thought, "That is so interesting." And that very day, I came home. Because of my type of work, I really didn't have, you know, much time to, to spend at home. I was not in lockdown myself for, I mean, maybe just a couple of months, but not, not throughout the year, like many other people. But those months, the very first day that I was, let's say "sent home" and that I also heard the expression, "social distancing," I thought that would make a fascinating painting or drawing. So what I did is I made a set. It was two separate small illustrations. One of them showed a woman seen from behind at home. She's reading. And she's just in her home. She has a little dog, and it's like a scene where she's home basically.

[00:27:57] And then there's a separate illustration where there's a guy also seen from behind. And he's also you know, at home, also kind of doing his own thing, but he's thinking. There's a thought bubble where he's thinking about the woman, and what the thought bubble shows is the exact same image that you see in painting number one. So this set is called "Social Distancing" because I felt that that was a good reflection of what was going on, that people were going to have to be separate, each one in their own homes, but they might be missing or longing for being with somebody else, being with the other person that they were missing-- a partner or a girlfriend or a friend, maybe a sister. So I thought that that was an interesting thing. And what I found fantastic was that the Los Angeles Public Library agreed that it was interesting. And now those two paintings are part of its digital collection as part of the COVID archive.

[00:28:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Sandy, you are so amazing. You've done so many cool things. I love that. Congratulations for that too. Oh, that's yeah, just, that is really cool. And I love the fact that you were able to express that so beautifully through art and, and capture a moment in time that does matter. That's really neat. So yeah. Kudos to you. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you, maybe see some of your artwork if it's available online, just maybe purchase your book, follow you in your future endeavors. Is there a way for them to?

[00:29:33] Sandy Rodriguez: Yes, absolutely. I have an Instagram that is at @chooseprevail. That is an Instagram through which I share my, my journey as a writer. And occasionally I also share art, new things that I've been painting, new things that I'm doing. It's more focused on the book than on the art part, but you do find a little bit of both, and I think that's the easiest way to, to connect. If anybody cares to send me a direct message, that's also possible through Instagram, and as for the book, it's available pretty much everywhere. It's on Amazon. That might be the easiest venue, but it's also on personable.com, target.com, or Walmart e-books. I've even seen it on E-bay Australia. So I think that if somebody cares to get the book, they should be able to get the book. And I would be very happy if they did.

[00:30:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Perfect. Well, fantastic. I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:30:35] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely.

[00:30:37]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, good. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:30:43] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, I think that the dictionary definition would be simply something like, "the expression of human creativity and imagination to something such as a painting or a sculpture." Normally it's in visual form, but, personally, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be in visual form. I think, for example, poetry can be a form of art. Certainly music can be a form of art as well. So I think it goes beyond, it goes beyond the visual. It's basically the application of creativity and imagination into something that speaks to others. I believe that would be the definition.

[00:31:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:31:30] Sandy Rodriguez: I think that they're --okay-- it has two types of importance. One would be important for oneself. I think that as an artist, the importance of art to yourself would be allowing you to express feelings and modify them, so it's something that is both a source of expression and also a source of comfort to yourself as an artist, I think. But as to society or more as a whole, I think that, firstly, it can make society better by adding more beauty to everyday lives, but it can also shine a light on things that might be social ills or social problems. So it's simply another way of communicating. As a journalist, as a former newspaper editor, I would say that the role of art is not entirely different from the role of any other form of media. You can either shine a light on problems or spread the word on something that is beautiful, spread the word about something that is fascinating, bring more beauty to the world.

[00:32:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and include some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out but doesn't include context behind it. So it's kind of left entirely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will?

[00:33:12] Sandy Rodriguez: Ah, that's a very intriguing question. And I will always question that. Myself, for example, when going to museums that are not art museums, but rather museums of history. Sometimes you see artifacts from cultures that are long gone and you see the interpretation of modern day historians like saying, "Okay, this was a ceremonial goblet." How do we know it was a ceremonial goblet? Maybe it was somebody's everyday coffee mug. I mean, you don't know for sure. And it's kind of difficult also when it comes to, to arts, because I think for my fun and entertainment, I might choose not to give an explanation and just see how people respond to it, seeing what it triggers in other people, what a piece that I've made my may, you know, inspire or trigger within the viewer.

[00:34:04] But in reality, I think I'm more of a person that doesn't like to give explanations. So normally when I, when I create something, I do normally either give it a title or give a little backstory. I like to do that. I personally, I see value in both. In the way I do it, obviously the value is that there's no misinterpreting first for sure. But I think that the other style would have a lot of value and I would be curious to try it someday, see what happens if I give no explanation and just wait and see what people might say. So that's a fascinating question. I hadn't thought about that, but yes, definitely. I do the explaining part, but I'm going to try not doing these explanations, and see what, what what happens.

[00:34:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. "Do I like that?" It'll be an interesting social experiment.

[00:34:57]Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely.

[00:34:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's fantastic. Well, Sandy, I have enjoyed our conversation so much. You are so multitalented and I love how much you like to dabble in all sorts of different things, and still enter contests, and are actively creating. Thank you for sharing your art with the world and with me this morning, I just really appreciate it. So, thank you.

[00:35:21] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you, Lindsey. I had so much fun. You're wonderful.

[00:35:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, you're so sweet. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I would highly encourage you to connect with Sandy on Instagram and follow her journey because obviously she is continuing to make incredible things, and that is her trajectory and it will just continue and it's going to be exciting. So go ahead and, and follow her. And we will catch you next time.

[00:35:50] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Corry MacDonald! Corry is a creative healer and first-time author, and she uses her love of the arts and her background in art therapy to help people overcome obstacles and move forward. She shares about her book-writing process and the stories of clients she's helped that have touched her heart as much as she touched theirs. (Fun fact: the cover image is a picture of Corry!)

Get in touch with Corry MacDonald: https://www.creatinghealingwithcorry.com/ | https://www.facebook.com/CorryMacDonaldPage/ | https://www.instagram.com/corrymacdonald/

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Episode 56 - Corry MacDonald

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Corry McDonald, she is a creative healer and first time author, which is so exciting. Can't wait to hear all about it. So, Corry, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:00:51] Corry MacDonald: Oh, I'm so happy to be here, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. I'd love to hear more about your background, sort of what got you into the work that you do now maybe, and just art and you and, and how all that intersect. So I'd love to hear all of that.

[00:01:08] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. It's why I'm so excited to be on your podcast because there are so many pieces to what I'm doing as a creative healer, but the thread that joins them all is creative power and creative intelligence and art. So in a nutshell, what drives me is I believe each one of us is meant to really just flow as the creative intelligence we are so that we can leverage life's challenges. Like whatever comes at us with stress, pain, triggers, heavy emotions, all whether body, mind, spirit, and we can learn to leverage them. And in real time, because underneath those things, there's wisdom and new potentials to access rather than just getting derailed by them. So think of it as artists who upcycled broken or discarded pieces to transform them into these masterpieces. You know, we also can learn to do this with our heaviest life pieces.

[00:02:06] So how that all came about is a lot of broken pieces in my life early, in my earlier years, I'm coming into 50 now. And so I learned a lot of incredible, creative power tools that help take me from a downward spiral up into a much lighter way of being. So those kind of weave together now. So whether it's like transpersonal art therapy. I started in art and design and then I started to learn after the art therapist or to learn about energy healing, learning that we're all energy and how we can learn to move from less of our overactive beta thinking mind into our heart, feeling mind. So I became a heart speaker, advanced cognitive coach, all these things that I do to help me. I started to get trained in them and smash them all together to become a creative healer, which is what I do now.

[00:03:04] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love the idea that you were talking about of upcycling. But I just love that. What a great illustration. And it's just a perfect way of thinking about how, you know, nothing that happens in our life needs to be wasted. It can all be replanted, you know?

[00:03:24] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh, I just got complete goosebumps when you said that. Cause it's, that's it! Like nobody taught us this in school, right? Like we learned lots of great stuff in school. Don't get me wrong. But I, this is stuff that-- this is life. And there are things that come into our life and it's actually, I'm learning, I call it creative intelligence. Some people, whatever your higher power is, you know, a source, great spirit, Allah, God, you know, there is a big energy, a creative force that is on the macro in, in, you can see it. I mean, just look into the universe, look into the stars at night, but that universal intelligence, the creative intelligence, I call it, is running and humming through us too. So it is ready to transform whatever stuff is coming at us, but we, we need to learn how to do that.

[00:04:18] Because most of the time we just react, which-- it's our wiring. We go into fight/flight/freeze, but we can override these systems and find new and better ways of being, and create different realities. And I I'm so grateful actually for all of the life that I've lived because I had to go through some --I call it off-roading, like four by four-- I had to go through some rough waters and rough roads to kind of have my self look deeper and go, "Wait a minute. I want to approach this different." And the minute we start looking for a higher or a, a better, vaster solution. Again, we're co-creating with the universe. So it dovetails and the helpers will come, like whether the right book or the right course or the right conversation with the person at the checkout. It doesn't matter. Something will help to upshift and upcycle, whatever you're wanting to. So it's a beautiful, natural process of life. We're meant to grow.

[00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. And that's so encouraging to realize exactly what you're saying, that there's so much more. And if you can help yourself and just be more aligned with truth, then that makes such a difference in your life, which is, you know, obviously transformative. Well, I would love to hear about how art specifically has kind of impacted and influenced your work, because I know that's a big component for you of what you do and sort of your own processing.

[00:05:55]Corry MacDonald: Yeah. Fantastic. I mean, even-- I love that question because even when I went to art school, I just kind of did it, Lindsey, 'cause it was the only thing that kind of lit me up, not even I, I was in university and I was one of these people --I did kind of do everything pretty well and easily. I had a good memory. I could study stuff, but it didn't excite me. And I was thinking, I'm going to just fail, go travel. And I remember how it was. I grew up in Canada. So I remember at the university, I had to take an arts elective, you know, so I just thought, "Well, I love to paint. I'll just take the fine arts." And I, the prof was almost failing me. I thought, "I'm not even good. I'm not good at this. I'm not going to continue." Even though it was the one thing I really loved, I love to express more of myself.

[00:06:46] And I remember him saying, "You know, Corry, I'm sad to hear, you're not going to try to get into art school." And I said, "Well, you're my lowest mark in my average," because I was all about the marks then, you know, and he said, "I'm doing that 'cause I'm pushing you. I think you should apply." So we ended up becoming partners. And he kind of helped me to create a portfolio and I got into art school. And when I got in there, I realized very quickly that I was wired-- I could do all this stuff that I was learning-- but I was wired for the emotive stuff. Like I could feel people's energy in their art and not in critiques. I was noticing that, and the profs were noticing I was much more interested to talk about what's going on internally with people, not about the arts, separate from the, the emotions and the feelings.

[00:07:38] So a few of the profs pulled me aside and said, "You know, have you ever heard of art therapy? You might consider that, Corry, you're really leaning that way." And I had no idea that that existed. So then it just enfolded in life, you know, that I went that path, but that is so exciting to me because that tells me that this path was there before I even knew I was going to go. And for a while, I even resisted it because I kind of thought, "Who am I to be a therapist?" My life was such a mess at the time. I just ran away from it, but it kept coming. You know, I kept taking psychology courses or we'd move to a new country. And I met a new lady, a new friend today, and she's an art therapist. Like I kept attracting it into my life, you know, so eventually I went there, I went to that direction.

[00:08:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And so in your work as an art therapist, what are some stories that stand out where you got to witness, or was your own experience of witnessing art, having a really big impact on someone's life, like a moment to remember?

[00:08:50] Corry MacDonald: Oh, I'm so excited to share that, Lindsey, in the book that just came through me. And that's another exciting thing that, you know, we don't even see where we put limits on ourselves. And I just never thought I would write a book. I just thought I was all about creating with a paintbrush or, and hammer and nails. I like sculpting too, but all of a sudden during the lockdown, this book came through and it was-- so many stories came through of what you just asked for. And that was, as the stories came through, I then reconnected with past clients and said, you know, this book, "Life in Full Colors," is coming through. It's called "Unlock your Childlike Curiosity to Uncover and Activate the Creative Intelligence You Are."

[00:09:32] So I was starting to write and all these past clients, I said, "Can I use your story?" And there are two that really stand out. But as we're talking, I wonder if I could just read-- it's a few paragraphs-- the story of Talia, because it was powerful what happened in her art, and I think we can all relate. So Talia came when I was just in new to being a creative healer. So this is a section in the book called Facing Fear to Find a New Focus. It's about going to that stuff that is painful, but we can upcycle it. I saw this happen for Talia, a soft-spoken woman who joined one of my workshops to discover that she took up very little space in her own life. While she had a sense that her vibrancy had been swallowed by her new role as a practical-minded, at-home mother, it wasn't until she saw it reflecting right back at her from her artwork that she realized how small her self-worth had become. Amid a chatty group busily creating magazine collages to express who they perceive themselves to be, Talia sat pensively.

[00:10:42] The emptiness of her large white paper engulfed the only image she managed to set into her collage: a lone peering eye. For Talia, I could see this eye felt almost unbearable to own. And yet that is exactly what she did. As she looked into the eye, surrounded by all the white space, it looked straight back at her. At first, she gazed back disturbingly as the expanse of emptiness echoed back the emptiness she felt inside. And then something happened. She just started to grow easier with it, that lone eye-- initially piercing and judgmental --transformed for Talia. Now she had a focus partner to help her to look below the surface of her life. Her artwork became an invitation to honor the silent space within her life is in the collage, allowing Talia to be intentional with what she chose to fill that space. As she listened inwardly to her creative intelligence, she recognized she could now consider her happiness and explore her life as a blank page, waiting to be filled.

[00:11:57] What followed that powerful pivot point were many more moments for her using art to express her innermost self, and to her delight, her color-filled creations became more and more vibrant and radiant, as did her life, recognizing she'd uncovered her passion. She took up the series of art classes, until one day, she began to introduce herself as an artist. She discovered a whole dimension of herself by literally moving through the eye of her personal storm to allow the fullest expression of herself.

[00:12:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's really beautiful.

[00:12:37] Corry MacDonald: That's all of us. That's all of our story. That's why I share it today. You know, we don't even know what's inside of us until we go there, but that can be the scariest thing in our mind. And yet when we jump in, our heart joins us and we start to get coherence and we get a new rhythm and find things that want it to be expressed just start to flow out. But it takes the fit of courage, doesn't it?

[00:13:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, it does. Yeah. That's a beautiful story. I'm so glad she was willing to share that because what a, what a perfect illustration of the way that, you know, one seemingly-- maybe it could have been insignificant, so to speak-- encounter with art, literally transformed her life. I love that.

[00:13:30] Corry MacDonald: Yeah, it really did. Yeah. And it's, it was such a joy, Lindsey, because you know, that was seven years ago when I had-- maybe eight now-- and so to go back to Talia and to all the others and say, "Guys, this book is coming through me like a download, and I'm having all these moments pop into my consciousness and they're streaming into these pages. Can I share? And how are you? And I miss you." And then they, all of them said yes, which was really cool, 'cause I met them at a time where they wouldn't want to share, but it was like unanimous. They said, "People need to know that it's that, especially people who think 'I don't have a creative bone in my body' like this, it's not about art, the stuff we're making." You heard, she stuck an eye on a piece of paper and that did something.

[00:14:23] And also with, with the art therapy, you know, it's not even about the arts so much. It's about the process. Much of what we do is like just doodles on a page. We're moving energy out onto the page. So it's our emotions are essentially energy in motion. So then we get to actually see them and look at ourselves outside of ourselves. So all of the people who shared their stories, they were in such a different place in their lives, such a more open and more rich place, that it was really amazing, Lindsey, to think, "Wow." That one moment you had on that, in that workshop, you know, you think about the butterfly affect and how that impacts so many pieces down the road and their relationships, their marriages. So it's, you mentioned earlier, like when we take care of ourself, like how powerful that is, and it's true. It has a big resonance, because then those around us in our immediate world feel that it's felt and it's experienced by them. But then it also goes out with, they can measure this now energetically, but what's out to our communities. It goes out to that, even the trees and plants around us, like it's all connected. So it's quite phenomenal when we start to upshift and upcycle ourenergy, the impact we do have on our world.

[00:15:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, congratulations on your book. This is super exciting. Do you want to share more about how that all came to be?

[00:15:59] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. Yeah, because like, as I mentioned, I did not see it coming and yet it's one of those things when you look back, you think, " Come on, Corry, how did you miss that? It's coming." Do you ever have that in your life where you look back and you think, "Oh, there were hints along the way?"

[00:16:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes.

[00:16:18] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. And that's how it was with this book because I, I am one of these people that when I go into something, I just dive in so that I kind of forget everything else around me. It's like part of that creative process, right when you're in flow. And so actually the book kind of happened like that, that it was suddenly locked down, and now I'm in Belgium, but at the time we were living in Dubai in the Middle East and it was very strict there and they can be because, you know, they have cameras and drones everywhere. So it was really locked. And, but I just really kind of dove into that and thought, "Oh, I'm going to kind of treat this as my own time, like a silent retreat in a sense." And so in the house there, there was a-- we have three teenagers and then the dog and everyone was in the house, my husband, and then there's a little house off to the side, like a little extra room and I just kind of delve in there cause I could get into my own space and I call it in the-- in my book-- the creative space called The Cloud. And I was thinking to get away and have some kind of meditation time, maybe paint a bit.

[00:17:29] All of a sudden, I got a kind of message. It's like a whisper in my ear. It said, "Grab your laptop." So I grabbed my laptop. Then after I would meditate all of a sudden, boom, I would just receive like a download of a chapter. It would just come out. And I realized, I think this is a book that I tried to start writing like five years ago, but I was doing it so much from my mind, my kind of mind and the ego. Like this is my book. I'm going to write my book. And it wasn't flowing. And then life happened that I was really doing a lot of inner work, where it was really getting my heart and mind aligned, which is creating heart coherence and heart math tells us. And when we start using our whole mind-- and of course I share this in the book too-- there's our thinking mind and our feeling mind, and that feeling is located in the heart. And often it's not-- in Western culture-- not really tapped into so much because it looks messy and childlike and it looks like a kid. Think of a kid in preschool, going nuts on a painting. There's no sense of time. There's no-- it's, it's imaginable, but it's essential because it's our intuition and all of these things. Whereas our thinking mind, it's also essential. It's keeps track of time. It organizes. It's very, you know, methodical, but if we get too much in that thinking mind, we lose the wonder and magic of life and we lose the creative power.

[00:19:00] So I had been doing all this work to integrate the two, and like hard math tells us that there's a magnetic pull to the heart, that feeling mind of 5,000 times stronger than when you're in your, just your thinking mind alone. So all of the sudden I'm within this great alignment that, yeah, I'm sure that's why a book could flow in so quickly. And so all the skeletal structure of the book I had created with my thinking mind five years before, it still was there, it was in my memory. So I had a framework for it, but all those little spontaneous hits of, yeah--Talia's moment, that should go there! And all of those downloads of memories and ideas and teaching, breaking these seven steps, because it suddenly formed seven transformative tools that leveraged life's challenges is your ultimate art material. These seven steps showed up. And that was gorgeous because it became like doing a painting to me where you're blending ideas and you're, you know, having kind of a rhythm of things going and I realized, "Well, maybe writing could be another art form that I've never considered for myself, you know?" So it was a fun process for sure.

[00:20:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That sounds so fun. I love that you were sort of in that flow state of just "here it is." It's just coming for you. What a wonderful way to write a book.

[00:20:29] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh. Yeah, because when I, like I said, five years before I was trying to write a book. And when you're trying, or you're saying, "I should sit down to write," you're not in flow, you're just forcing something. So it was a different feeling. It was power versus force, which I loved. And, and now people feel that when they're, when I'm getting the reviews and people say, "Wow, I feel like I'm..." My husband said, "Corry, this feels like you're right beside me, like your voice. And it feels like I'm in a workshop with you." And that's what I wanted, especially with COVID. Now I want to, to give people the power tools that they could, if they're stuck somewhere, all they need is a pack of crayons and a personal problem or challenge-- well, we all got those-- and to see, to learn, "Oh my gosh, I can take this relationship that seems to be falling apart because I'm stuck at home with my whatever-- grandma or my daughter or my, my spouse-- or I can take this backache that just doesn't go away and I can use it and get information from it through this process." So that's been really exciting because I think that's it. We need to help each other and give each other tools.

[00:21:44] And the most beautiful thing is there's a non-for-profit I support in Canada who are bringing art therapy to immigrants and refugees who come and I feel this affinity to them. I've just such a kinship to them because I've lived overseas for almost twenty-five years, willingly. And even then it's been challenging at times, but a lot of people are coming from like war-torn areas or they're just, they're struggling. They leave a traumatized area so often to be retraumatized when they enter into a culture that maybe doesn't accept them or doesn't like the religion or what have you, you know? And so I'm partnered up with this Vancouver Island counseling center for immigrants and refugees. So all the net proceeds of the book go to them. And so not only is the reader uplifted, but they know they're lifting another just by getting the book. So I'm grateful that it all flowed in the way it did. And it's still flowing out and lifting others energetically.

[00:22:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's beautiful. Oh my goodness. What a cool organization too. That sounds like such a needed thing. And I just love that that's what they're doing. Oh, very cool. Well, so I'm, I'm curious you know, if there's a listener who is thinking, "Oh, you know, maybe I should try this," do you have like a very, maybe simple exercise for someone to just start with?

[00:23:13] Corry MacDonald: Oh, yes, let's share that. That's great. And actually, I put a bunch on my website, which is got an area called like Resources and then under-- well, it's in the dropdown under my book-- and like listeners, definitely, if you're interested, go there 'cause there's some PDFs where I teach you playfully how you can-- for example, there's a "How to Do a Massage". I was missing massages so much. How to create an massage from the inside out as you use your imaginal world and colors. So there's that. And there's "Create Calm and Colors with Your Breath" and "Creating Direct Path Home to Yourself." There's different fun little exercises you can do that, you can go right inside, but right now you could even do this energetically. And when I say that, I mean, just with your imagination.

[00:24:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you for that. And you know, I'm sure that our listeners are going to want to connect with you and follow your work and hopefully purchase a copy of your book. Is there a way for us to do that?

[00:24:16] Corry MacDonald: Yeah, thanks for asking. You can definitely, you're always welcome to tuck into my website, which is creatinghealingwithcorry-- and Corry is spelled C O R R Y .com, creatinghealingwithcorry.com, and that website is just a colorful schmozzle of, of stuff for ya. There's the, like I said, the resources. There, there's all the little links to my social media. So I've just started a new YouTube channel, just learning all this stuff. And I've put a lot of these kind of playful processes in there in time-lapse. So they're quick. You can just think, "I'm really angry. What do I do?" Tuck in: I've got one on anger. I, just all different trapped emotions that get stuck and make us feel off you can find there, but there's all sorts of stuff. And the information about my book is there as well and how you can find it on Amazon and the, if, if you want to try it out, test it out. There's a little place you can sign in for a free chapter. And I also share a free creative exercise from the book in there, so you can test drive it, but it's on Amazon in ebook and paperback too. And it's called "Life in Full Colors."

[00:25:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, I always like to ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that.

[00:25:40] Corry MacDonald: I love this idea.

[00:25:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:50] Corry MacDonald: Oh, art to me is pure expression from anybody's soul: on a page, in a meal, it can be the way they garden, the way they put themselves together with their clothes, or sculpture, music. Oh, any pure expression from the soul.

[00:26:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:17]Corry MacDonald: Oh, artists are the way-showers. Most of us are stuck in our, our brains, myself included. Why do you think I share this? I have to learn what I'm sharing. So the artists seem to know that when they go into that flow state, when they go into that still point inside and bring something into the world that was never seen before, that they're dovetailing with all of life, with consciousness itself. And so they show those who've never gone there before what's possible, and they bring something new to form, which is sheer magic.

[00:26:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow. That's a really unique perspective. Thank you for that. I love that. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, something to give a little bit of background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:27:32] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh, lindsey. Oh, that question just got me so excited because, what a question, right? Because both of them have such a different experience. They offer a different experience. I guess I'm going to answer the latter, in that because of who I am and what I do-- because why I say that is-- so often when someone is new working with me and they decide to express themselves from their heart, they'll be timid the first time. And they'll say, "Well, I feel this is what's coming out of me. Maybe this image is about me wanting to discover myself." And then they'll look at me and say, "But what do you see, Corry?" And then I laugh because I say, "Well, everything I see is going to be about Corry's story." Just about the same in the workshop group. Like if Lindsey looked at it, you would bring your interpretation for it.

[00:28:31] So I feel that it's quite gorgeous when someone just doesn't explain what it's about. And then all of us can, our souls will make meaning from whatever medicine we need from it, you know? And that's quite powerful to know that, wow, we are able to walk up to something-- I'll even do workshops where I'll say, "Go out in the woods and see what's calling you, bring it back and let's make a group sculpture of it." But each person comes back with a stone or something that has a message for them. So we're meaning makers. So I like the idea of keeping it kind of open, but letting everybody take responsibility for their own meaning and not, you know, and not me saying, "Well, I see this, so it's that." yeah, that's a great question. Those are great questions, Lindsey. Oh my gosh. Thank you for that.

[00:29:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Thank you. Well, I love hearing people's perspective and their answers on those questions because, you know, like art, it's completely subjective and it's so much fun to hear people's different interpretations. And like you were saying, sort of you bring your own story into it too, which is fun.

[00:29:42] Corry MacDonald: So it is, but on the flip side of that, I have done that where I had a show and then I invited actually a lot of people who were creating in workshops. And I said, "You guys, now you see, you are creative powerhouses, like join me in the show." And then when we started to hang it, so many people requested, "Please share some information behind these paintings because we're so curious." So I see the validity of both, you know, and in the end, it was chosen that, okay, we'll share a little bit about these pieces. So it's kind of cool. Like there's, there's, you can have it all and it can all benefit the, the universe because we're always curious ones, aren't we?

[00:30:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so very much for being here today, Corry, I really appreciate it. I love your insight into art. I love your illustration about upcycling, and I just keep thinking, keep picturing a mosaic, you know, how those are historically created with broken tiles, and they're made into something new and beautiful. And I just keep thinking about your, your artwork and your perspective on that. And I just love it. So thank you so much for sharing today. I just really appreciate you.

[00:31:00] Corry MacDonald: Well, I received that in full and I flew it right back to you for creating this space where these sorts of things can be shared because art matters. Beauty matters. If ever we knew that more than ever is now when so much has shut down, we need to share the things that bring our souls alive. So thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun.

[00:31:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course, of course. Well, and thank you so much, everyone who has listened to this episode, and I hope you do check out Corry's work. And I, I just appreciate you listening to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:48] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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Tuesday, June 1st marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary, so Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen share about lessons learned and behind-the-scenes stories from one year of podcasting, the most recent dance-for-film production that they produced, and the exciting news for VidaDance Company's first live performance since 2019! (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is VidaDance's KC Fringe promo image for our filmed production, "When.")

Get the latest news from VidaDance Company: www.vidadancecompany.com

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Episode 55 – Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited about today because this is a pretty special episode. Tomorrow, June 1st, marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary. And so today I invited my husband, Kevin, to come back to the show. Thank you for being here today, Kevin.

[00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you for having me.

[00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I thought we would just talk about, you know, one year of Artfully Told and sort of maybe what we've been up to art wise over the last year, or what's coming up just to celebrate all things art. Yeah. So Yeah. So, gosh, do you have any questions for me right off the bat? Because I feel like this is...

[00:01:17] Kevin Dinneen: yeah, I do. So, so one year in how many, how many episodes is that? How many interviews?

[00:01:23] Lindsey Dinneen: So I have, at this point, this will be my 55th episode published because I did start with a few at the launch.

[00:01:32] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So in those 55 episodes, what is something that you've learned? Sort of, is there a general sense of something that you've learned or something that you've kind of appreciated in general that you didn't expect, or?

[00:01:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, I think a lot of interesting things have emerged from the process. Of course, you know, this is my first time hosting a podcast and being part of it from start to finish. So I've, I've learned a lot about the process of actually producing a podcast and what all goes into that...

[00:02:07] Kevin Dinneen: The technical aspects.

[00:02:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly.

[00:02:10]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so you learned all the technical aspects of it.

[00:02:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And then the, I think one of the most interesting prevailing themes-- that was a little surprising to me only because I hadn't thought about it this way was-- you know, I asked my guests the same three questions every time. And one of them is, "what do you think is the most important role of an artist?" And I've gotten a lot of amazing answers, but one of the most commonly expressed answers is a form of, "to be true to yourself" or "to be honest," or, you know, those kinds of answers. And what's interesting to me about that is, you know, as a, as an artist, who's always taken on a different persona, like as a character or, you know, I'm portraying a certain emotion or something like that, it's not necessarily-- it's not like I'm being dishonest in the portrayal-- but my version of art...

[00:03:07] Like to me, it was interesting because for somebody who is just, is maybe a visual artist expressing themselves through painting or something like that, then to be true to themselves or honest is like them taking their truth and putting it onto like a canvas or something like that. Well, it was interesting about being an artist who takes on somebody else's persona, is that I want to do that character justice for that. At the same time, it's not me being myself honest, if that makes sense? And so that was always kind of an interesting answer that I've really enjoyed kind of delving into in a different way, because my answer to that question is different, but it's only because of the way that my art has come out so far, if that makes any sense.

[00:03:55]Kevin Dinneen: Could you say that, that you're being true to your character?

[00:03:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:03:59] Kevin Dinneen: For portrayal?

[00:04:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, I would always want to do that, but I think, I think I just hadn't, I hadn't labeled it as the most important thing for an artist because of the kind of work that I do. So I just really liked that perspective and thinking about how important that is to so many artists.

[00:04:20] Kevin Dinneen: So is there anything, can you think of a particular moment or two that surprised you?

[00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen: I have definitely had some guests, you know, with varied backgrounds where... well, I think, you know what, okay. Here's one thing that has been really important for me to learn and understand would be, especially people who've had different experiences with art based on, you know, their race or gender or whatever else . And, and it's so specific because the way that artists are treated, just, I guess like every human being-- unfortunately or fortunately-- has been treated, is different in the arts world. And so I think what has been interesting to me is learning the, the stories about people overcoming challenges that were kind of put in their way because of these different aspects of who they are, where it should, I think, just be about, you know, the right person for the right role or, you know, you're, you're a talented artist, regardless of what you look like or who you are. Everyone's experience is so different based on kind of who they are, what they look like, and stuff like that. So that's been really important for me, I think, to, to listen to these stories and to share them, because it provides a different perspective than maybe I would have had myself, and that's what I love about the podcast too.

[00:05:48] Kevin Dinneen: You get to maybe not experience what they experienced, but you get an idea of that experience.

[00:05:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:05:55] Kevin Dinneen: It broadens your own kind of vision of art.

[00:05:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. It broadens the vision. And I don't force this conversation but it does open up conversations that might otherwise be difficult to have, or wouldn't come up necessarily, 'cause they're not always fun to talk about per se, but when you create a space where you can share about the good, the bad and the ugly, I think that that's been one of the most wonderful things is having people share honestly about their experiences.

[00:06:26]Kevin Dinneen: Looking forward, for the next year, the next 55 podcasts, is there-- or episodes I should say.

[00:06:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Woo.

[00:06:35] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. I have big dreams for you.

[00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh boy. I won't be sleeping ever.

[00:06:41]Kevin Dinneen: So in the next 55 episodes, is there something that you would like to be intentional about and, and kind of focus on or? I know this year has just kind of been...

[00:06:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Exploration?

[00:06:55] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. You know, you've been kind of learning and experiencing. And, and are there any changes you'd like to make or in your, in your approach or anything like that?

[00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I really like the conversations that have emerged naturally through these episodes. And I would like to keep it that sort of organic, like it's just the two of us having a conversation about art. So it doesn't feel as...

[00:07:20] Kevin Dinneen: That's the only agenda.

[00:07:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Talk about art.

[00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Talk about art and, and there's, that can go in so many different directions, but as long as we kind of keep the central theme of art and, and, and the stories that connect us. I think that that's really important to me. I particularly love hearing about certain moments that really stand out to people. So I think emphasizing that, yes, it's important to share about our creative processes and things like that. And I think that's very interesting, especially if like, I'm not a writer. So listening to a writer talk about their process is really cool to me, but I also really love the moments when people say, "You know, I went to this art gallery and I saw this one painting, and this one painting for whatever reason, spoke to me that day. And it changed my perspective on my relationship with my dad." Or something like that, where, you know, those moments are so cool and they happen.

[00:08:15] And I think we just need to talk about them more. So I think I'm looking forward to hearing more and more stories about the power of, of art. And then I think the other thing that I'm gonna mix up and play with a little bit is, now you've all had the opportunity to hear from a lot of different people about their perspectives on my final three questions. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be mixing those up. I'm kind of excited about that. I don't have them in stone yet.

[00:08:43] Kevin Dinneen: That was my next, my next question. Do we get a preview of what any of those questions are?

[00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I'll give you one, 'cause it's a good one to probably ponder before coming on the show, although maybe, you know, again-- sometimes the spur of the moment answers are, are particularly delightful too. But I think one of the questions I want to ask is something along the lines of what you asked me at one of our episodes of, you know, "Say this is your last day to live and you only get to experience one thing of art-- one show, one piece, one book, whatever-- one last time, what would that be and why?" And I just think that's such an interesting question to ask, because I think it'll, it'll tell us a lot about the individuals and sort of what means the most, you know, thinking about those last few moments. I think that will be really cool.

[00:09:33] Kevin Dinneen: Are you going to keep any of the others or completely switch it up?

[00:09:36] Lindsey Dinneen: I don't know. I don't know. I think probably that new question will become the new third question. I do like, I like all the questions. This is the problem, but I also think it's maybe time to do some new ones, so I don't know. TBD.

[00:09:53] Kevin Dinneen: All right. So outside of the, the podcast, anything interesting in this past year related to art that stands out for you?

[00:10:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think this has been a really wonky season for a lot of artists, but so there wasn't as much, there wasn't as much creative art stuff that I got to do last year. But as we're starting to kind of see things open back up, I'm really excited. Actually, yesterday we just finished wrapping up filming for my professional company's very first dance for film production. We're fondly referring to it as your term, which is a dancical. In fact, you want to talk about why we're calling it a dancicle.

[00:10:40] Kevin Dinneen: So this year was so unique. And you know, we had the opportunity for your, your company to perform, but not live. We could perform on a stage and film it.

[00:10:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:10:56]Kevin Dinneen: But you know, that, that really poses an interesting challenge because it's not very immersive.

[00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:11:03]Kevin Dinneen: You're just sitting there watching a video of something that happened live. And you know, I think that's one thing that "Hamilton" did well. It was, it was well-produced when they did it on stage very much and showed it in video.

[00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yep.

[00:11:20]Kevin Dinneen: But I think it's really hard to do well, and we have a little bit smaller of a budget.

[00:11:31] Lindsey Dinneen: A hundred or two bucks maybe. Right.

[00:11:34]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so we had to be creative and, and had the idea to film a dance, but movie style, on locations. And so basically it's like a musical because it is a video, a movie, but there's no dialogue, it's all, it's dance. But it is, you know, in, on set and in locations and things like that with a soundtrack. So, so not all of it is dancing. So that's why it's a dancical. Just like in a musical, it's not all singing. So that's where, that's where the term dancical came from.

[00:12:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, exactly. I love it. Yeah. I'm super excited for so many reasons, but I think that that particular adventure is going to be really cool to see it come together. I mean, it was such an interesting process because, you know, I've never-- obviously we've had things filmed before, but it, it's kind of like what Kevin was saying in the sense of like, we do this stage production. There's this one, maybe two camera angles, but it's, it's mostly just to have like a memory of it. And so to then go and work with a filmmaker-- and we have the great privilege of working with Alden Miller, who was actually a previous guest on Artfully Told. So definitely go check out his episode. He has a lot of great insight and wisdom to share and, but, yeah. So we've been working with him and, you know, he's fantastic. He's an award winning documentary filmmaker. So he knows exactly what he's doing. And he was so gracious to work with a company that is super enthusiastic, but doesn't know the ropes behind creating a film, right? So, you know, from the get go, it was a collaborative process. Kevin was the person who came up with the storyline. I was frankly, not feeling very inspired. I, I had these ideas. I just didn't feel like any of them would work. And then one day, Kevin had this-- well, I'll let you tell this part of the story if you're okay with it.

[00:13:36]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, so I, I was, I dunno what you would say, fulfilling a challenge. The challenge was to memorize something and I had a week to memorize something, some sort of text, and I chose Rudyard Kipling's poem, "If," and it was a poem that he wrote for his son. And I was pretty inspired by it because it, it talks about being a man, but you know, really it's just about being a legitimate, good person and basically how to act. And I was inspired by it and felt like we could come up with a story that embodies, and, you know, makes it into a visual source to tell this story. So that was, that was my inspiration. So then you read it and you're like," Yeah. That's okay." And...

[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I loved the poem. I just also couldn't picture, right....

[00:14:38] Kevin Dinneen: I mean, like that's an okay inspiration for a thing, but it didn't quite...

[00:14:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Where could this lead to in a dance production kind of thing.

[00:14:45] Kevin Dinneen: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So then we kind of hashed it out, what it might look like, some storyline ideas. And then, yeah, it was at one point, probably one of my prouder moments when you're like, "Okay, this could probably work."

[00:14:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, what's cool about the poem and maybe we can post a copy or at least a link to, to view it. We'll do that in our show notes, but it's, it's a fantastic poem. It's really inspiring. And, it's kind of just sort of naturally broken into four sections. And so Kevin took the four sections and put a storyline. So there's sort of four storylines that follow, you know, in our case, women, mostly. But, but follow women through their individual storylines, but what's kind of cool about the way that it's turned out, is they're interwoven in interesting ways. So you, you sort of see the characters woven into the different scenes, and I think that's going to be a really cool aspect of it.

[00:15:40] Like, you know, you'll see, for example, the lead characters from the first scene, you'll see them visiting the restaurant in the second scene, you know, and, and so sort of it kind of weaves through. So I think it's actually going to turn out really cool. But yeah, and so once, once Kevin had sort of narrowed it down, we had sort of hashed it out a little bit, we then met with Alden and really kind of had like a brainstorming, "here's what we're thinking." But he's essentially a professional storyteller, so like, this is his area. So like, "What do you see in and how can we make this all work together?" And so once that process got done, then it was a matter of, well, I think you had already picked out music by that time too.

[00:16:20]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, we had had all the music ready. And what's interesting about that is when we're coming up with our storyline and he's saying, "Okay, where, where is this going to be?" Oh, I don't know. You know, we're just used to always having a stage. That's where it's going to be. So that was another interesting element and, and sort of challenge is finding locations to shoot and getting permission and jumping through all the hoops and, there's all sorts of things that we had to do. All sorts of things that we're not used to doing that it was a learning process.

[00:16:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and honestly, I'll just-- to be totally frank, you know, normally when we're doing this process, I'm very used to the process of coordinating people with rehearsal time, and we usually have one space that we're rehearsing in. So it's, it's a very easy process in the sense of, yeah, we're trying to figure out overlapping schedules of availability, but it's that compared to time slots and what we need? It's not that bad, and I've done it a lot, so I'm very comfortable with it. But this was this whole other layer of not only are we coordinating people's availability, but we're also coordinating Alden's availability with that, and on top of that venue availability, and on top of that weather conditions. So frankly it was one of the most stressful periods of my life, probably since awhile, because there was just so much to coordinate and I just wasn't, I also wasn't aware of the length of time it takes to coordinate things like that. 'Cause you know, I'm kind of used to-- all right, this studio is available then. Perfect. So this is how we'll fit it in, versus, you know, like filming at a college. There's this entire process that you have to go through of getting approved and where exactly are you going to film and then filling out all the paperwork and stuff like that. And so the lead time is so much longer.

[00:18:16] Kevin Dinneen: And then finding a time where students and teachers aren't going to be interrupted with the filming and.

[00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:18:23] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. All sorts of things.

[00:18:24] Lindsey Dinneen: All sorts of things. So yeah, it was just a totally different process. But then, so there was that learning curve, but then there was a learning curve of actually like being in the process of the actual filming taking place and not realizing certain things, which has been really cool, actually. Like, you know, when you're filming a movie, for instance, you're going to have the characters change costumes, change clothes between different days or different scenes. That makes complete sense to me. But as a dancer who usually sticks with, you know, dance kind of choreography, usually if you're establishing a character, you keep their costume the same throughout, 'cause that way it's easy to identify as an audience like, "Oh, you know, Jane always wears her blue gingham dress. "So you know that's Jane, if that makes sense, partly because we don't have the advantage of getting to see people's faces all that close. And so it is important to kind of establish, but now it was like, "Oh right, we should change hairstyles. We should change maybe even a little bit different makeup. We need to change the clothes from day to day." So it looks like not just one long one day, you know, but different days. And this is a progressive storyline. That was funny, but you know, not something I would have thought of.

[00:19:45] Kevin Dinneen: And the thing that stood out for me that was probably the most different that I noticed was for dance, you rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, and then boom, you have one shot and you get it perfect. And then in this, rehearsing is almost worthless because if you go to a space that is not the film set and rehearse, it's not going to be the same. And so then when you get on to set, you have, you have different things that get in the way or it's carpet and you didn't rehearse on carpet. So this turn is not gonna work. So you just get there and you do a bunch of takes.

[00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: You're absolutely right. And certain things too, you know, there were, there were certain spaces that we didn't even have access to before the day of the filming. Well, I guess all of them where we had kind of, we had an idea of the space and what, what we could use of it, but it's still different, you know? 'Cause you take away the certain image and you kind of say, "Okay, this is, I think, choreography that's gonna fit in right here." But then you get there and you realize that either things have moved or they actually don't want you to touch this one thing that you thought it would be okay if, you know, you use the counter as like a barre or, you know, stuff like that, where it-- that's all fine, well, and good. It's just, it was really interesting 'cause it was like, okay, set the choreography. Try to be as prepared as you can be. And then the day of is like completely flexible and things changed like that, you know? And it was, I'm so grateful. I work with such amazing dancers who are totally fine with that. There were no complaints, there were no issues whatsoever. They were like, "Sure. Okay. Yeah." And then, you know, you're doing your fourth, fifth take of the exact same moment. And we're just not used to that, but you know, everyone was like, "This is fun," you know?

[00:21:42] Kevin Dinneen: And the feedback from the dancers, they're like, "Oh, would it work if I did this, or maybe I could do this?" just like on film day.

[00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:21:51] Kevin Dinneen: That doesn't happen in productions.

[00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. "Let's change this!".

[00:21:55] Kevin Dinneen: You're not rehearsing for month, and then like, "You know, I was thinking!"

[00:21:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Let's do it this way instead.

[00:22:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:22:02] Kevin Dinneen: And so that was fun.

[00:22:03] Lindsey Dinneen: It was fun.

[00:22:03] Kevin Dinneen: It was fun. And, and worked really well.

[00:22:08] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too. And I think, you know, and it seems so obvious when I think about it in context, but without having someone to say, "You know, you're going to have to be loose with your musical interpretation of some of these movements so that it can be adopted for film." It just, it wasn't something that I had really thought about. So I think the learning curve has been a lot of fun too. There would be moments when, you know, Alden would say, "Okay, so from my perspective as a filmmaker, I'm seeing this. Now I know this is different than a normal dance production." And so, you know, funny things like that, where all of a sudden be like, "Oh, okay, actually, can you start from the other side and do your thing the reverse way?" And, and, you know, just things I just didn't think about. It was great.

[00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And now, it's kind of out of your hands...

[00:22:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is!

[00:22:55] Kevin Dinneen: It's up to Alden and his superpower...

[00:22:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Magical genius...

[00:23:00] Kevin Dinneen: Of editing.

[00:23:03] Lindsey Dinneen: So we'll see, but we're really excited. It's going to premiere at the Kansas City Fringe Festival in July. We will definitely be talking about that closer to the time, but keep your eyes open on our company website, which is www.vidadancecompany.com and also www.kcfringe.org, because that's where you'll be able to take advantage of seeing us dance and seeing this brand new production.

[00:23:33] Kevin Dinneen: And I think, I don't know of another movie like this. I think this might be pretty close to the first of its kind. There's probably very few people that have tried this.

[00:23:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, 'cause it's, it's not like you see a lot of really good like dance movies or dance inspired movies where it's about a group of dancers, but there's always dialogue.

[00:24:01]Kevin Dinneen: And it's about dance. It's not using dance as the medium.

[00:24:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of the way...

[00:24:07] Kevin Dinneen: To tell the story.

[00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:10] Kevin Dinneen: 'Cause this isn't about dance.

[00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's using...

[00:24:13] Kevin Dinneen: It is dance.

[00:24:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It is dance. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I like it. And I think that's why dancical is so appropriate, because it's a good way of describing it. So yeah. So our production is called "When," so, you know the idea behind that was, Kipling's poem, "If," and then we sort of interpreted that to be, when you are these things, then this is what/ who you can become or who you can be and how you can navigate life. So it's really exciting.

[00:24:40] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:24:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So that was the latest project that we were working on.

[00:24:48]Kevin Dinneen: So you got some good news yesterday, I think it was, and it's art related.

[00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is art-related. So we booked the theater at Union Station in Kansas City for a reprise of our unique Nutcracker called "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker." And on top of that, we got word from the aerial dance company, Kansas City Aerial Arts, that we have partnered with in the past. And they are going to be joining us for this production again, which is so exciting. I'm so thrilled because they're wonderful people, just so great to work with and bring such a cool, unique element. So that's going to be the first weekend of December and I am so excited. Live performances are going to be back!

[00:25:44] Kevin Dinneen: All right. Yeah. Cool. Well,. I do want to say congratulations on the one year anniversary you made it a year.

[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I did! Successfully. We're still going!

[00:25:59] Kevin Dinneen: And, and learned everything from scratch. Taught yourself. You've got your setup. It's a one-woman show. You've, you've rocked it, and people love it. So, good job. Congratulations.

[00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. Well, so I'm just curious since I'm now experimenting with different questions. Do you have any different questions that you would like to ask me? We can test them out in real time.

[00:26:23] Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:26:23] Lindsey Dinneen: This is off the cuff, guys.

[00:26:24] Kevin Dinneen: Well, this whole episode is. We didn't talk about this.

[00:26:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, this is very true.

[00:26:28] Kevin Dinneen: Gosh. Is there something that stands out to you as, as something that is art related that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt a little intimidated, and that just kind of held you back? Or "I've never even, I wouldn't know where to start?" Or is there something like that that you would love to do? It's just kind of been outside your wheelhouse, but you would love to try.

[00:26:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I have two pipe dreams. One is to act. I really think I would enjoy acting. I, I love that element that I get to do in dance productions. So I actually think that having a speaking role in like a play or something else would be really cool, but it's so intimidating to me. I can memorize choreography. I'm sure I could figure out how to memorize lines, but it feels different. I'll put it that way. And a different kind of vulnerable. I've kind of gotten used to the way dance is vulnerable, but that would be like a whole 'nother level. So that's, that's one pipe dream. And the other one would be singing. I love singing, but I don't have any formal training, and I would absolutely need it if I ever try to pursue anything, I don't think anyone would be super thrilled to hear me without it. But yeah, those are the two things that are kind of hanging out there that I'd love to do at some point.

[00:27:51] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. So, so in the world of art, just in general, which is the whole world, right?

[00:27:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. The world is art.

[00:28:00]Kevin Dinneen: So let's, let's see. Maybe we can narrow that down. What, what would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art or making it available to people, what change would you like to see in how art works basically? In general, what's, what's a change you'd like to see?

[00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a great question. I really like it. I think, I think one change I would really like to see is more of an exposure to arts from a young age, more of a chance to participate in arts from a young age. It's difficult because arts tend to be the first thing that get cut in a school's budget, right? And, you know, study after study has proven that kiddos who are involved in arts usually do better academically and socially and things like that, build really good life skills, but it is, you know, I also can understand how from just a fiscal responsibility perspective, people would cut that, because there are other things that are important too. But when that happens, there's just such a gap in a child's education and even a way of positively expressing themselves and learning that there's a lot of emotion that doesn't necessarily need to be expressed in words, or in behavioral changes. You could take that emotion and whatever is coming up and put it onto a canvas or into a dance or into a song. And I think that if we could do that at a younger age to nurture this art appreciation, I think that that would actually have a really positive impact on the world, because there'd be so many more people able to express themselves. And like I said, it doesn't have to be words. It could be. Maybe that's the way you choose to, but it could be these grand masterpieces that we would never get otherwise, because a child was one time told, "Oh, that's a silly drawing" or something like that. So I think if we could encourage the arts and participation in the arts from a younger age, that would be my dream.

[00:30:08] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So it's no surprise then that you teach young students.

[00:30:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I suppose so!

[00:30:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. And, and that's been important to you, so that makes sense.

[00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:30:19]Kevin Dinneen: So do I have to come up with a third one?

[00:30:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't think so. I think those are two really good ones. Yeah.

[00:30:25] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. I'll do a third one in another episode.

[00:30:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, that's fair! Alright. Well, thank you, Kevin, for being my guest host today and asking good questions and then, you know, helping me tell our stories. I appreciate it. And I, I really have to say this has been such a cool opportunity for me. I have loved getting to talk to people who are doing just amazing things with their lives. And, you know, art plays a big role in that for these people, but just who they are and how they're contributing is so cool. And the power of the arts, and just being able to have these honest conversations about the good, the bad and the ugly in the art world, I think has been outstanding for me personally. Every time I get to record an episode, it just sort of fills my soul back up and, and, you know, it reminds me that there is a lot of good in the world and people are doing really good things. And I think that's so important to remember.

[00:31:29]So, so I guess I have a twofold thanks. One part of that thanks is to everyone who's been a guest so far on Artfully Told and has been willing to be honest and transparent and willing for me to ask you questions that might kind of throw you for a second, but that you're willing to dive a little deeper into some of the concepts, and I really appreciate that. And so thank you to everyone who's been a guest, but also a huge thank you to everyone who has been a supporter by listening to the episodes and whether you let me know you're listening or not, I just appreciate each and every one of you because you are what keeps us going. So thank you. Happy one year! This is really exciting. I'm super stoked. I don't ever say the word stoked, but here we are. I'm just that excited and I can't wait to share art with the world. And I hope you're feeling inspired. I hope you share this episode, or one of the many that are available and many more to come, with a friend and we will catch you next time.

[00:32:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Natalie Cordone & Shawn Kilgore! This incredibly dynamic duo have amazing stories to share about the show that introduced them to each other, the creation of their own tribute show to Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme, and all the adventures in between. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Natalie & Shawn!)

Get in touch with Cordone & Kilgore: www.cordoneandkilgore.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 54 - Natalie Cordone & Shawn Kilgore

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have as my guests today, Shawn Kilgore and Natalie Cordone. They are a performing duo that has been producing, writing and touring around the country for almost a decade. And they are currently the hosts of "Live! With Cordona and Kilgore." And I am so excited to chat with them about their artistic journeys and what they're up to now. I know their whole focus on is on positivity and light, and I'm just so excited that they're here. So thank you, Sean and Natalie, so much for being here today.

[00:01:14] Shawn Kilgore: Thanks for having us. This is very exciting. I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:18] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, we're thrilled to be here. Thanks, Lindsey.

[00:01:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And it sounds like we have some guest artists as well.

[00:01:25] Shawn Kilgore: Yes. I apologize for the, for the hounds in the background.

[00:01:29] Lindsey Dinneen: It's all good. I have two dogs too. They might make a sound appearance at some point as well.

[00:01:36] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. I'm not making any promises on my end, either. The pup is-- he's being good right now, but you just never know.

[00:01:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. You never know when they'll have to defend the house against the UPS driver. You just never know.

[00:01:46] Shawn Kilgore: Exactly.

[00:01:47]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, okay. So I would just love if you two wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about your backgrounds, maybe how you got into art in general, into your specific fields, how you guys met, and maybe a little bit about what you're up to now, which is I know a tall order, but we'll just dive in and I can't wait to hear.

[00:02:07] Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely, Natalie, go ahead.

[00:02:09] Natalie Cordone: Sure. So my artistic journey actually began in a tutu when I was about three. So I started dancing in tap and ballet lessons like most of us did, and I was a dancer up until I was in college, but along the way, I joined the theater and became an actor and then didn't find my voice as a singer until I was in college, really, which is an odd journey and kind of very different from Shawn's. But then I started singing mostly opera and I sang with the Orlando Opera and got my Master's Degree in Acting, and became a professional actor right away and started dancing and singing in musicals. And along with singing with the opera, and along that journey is when I met Shawn. But let's have him tell you a little bit about him before we talk about how we met.

[00:03:00] Shawn Kilgore: For me, I started singing from a very young age, mostly in church, and I was very involved in music all through school. But it wasn't really, until I was in eighth grade, I was about to be a freshman in high school when my mom took me to see my first big musical. And from the second that it started, I knew exactly that that's what I wanted to do. So I immediately got involved in theater, you know, and, and musical theater in, in high school. And that continued that on through my college years. That's what I studied both at a school in Ohio and then later at a school in New York City. And then I moved to Florida, South Florida, worked professionally for many, many years in regional theater throughout the state and then moved to central Florida. And that brings us to where Natalie and I connect.

[00:03:43]Natalie Cordone: Oh, it's a good story. So, so the, the real story of how we met begins with Shawn's singing with the Orlando Philharmonic Orchestra. He was doing this fantastic version of "Carousel," where he played Billy Bigelow. He was the big man on campus and it was a very coveted role and super exciting, singing with a full orchestra and in the midst of it, I was moving back from New York City. And we both got cast in a show together. So Shawn had been cast in the musical from the beginning and his partner in the show was supposed to be another actress. The show is called "Baby," and in the show, our two characters are desperately trying to get pregnant. I think that's a nice way of putting it. So in that show, we spent most of our time in a bed. That was our set. And so we got to know each other very closely, very quickly...

[00:04:39] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah, a lot of intimacy from the day we met.

[00:04:41]Natalie Cordone: And I just thought he was the most wonderful actor. And the only reason why I was cast in the role was that this whole time, the storyline it's really about how this couple cannot get pregnant. And the actress who was supposed to play the role, got pregnant. And so she was going to be five months and showing on stage, which would have made absolutely no sense. She's a wonderful actress and it's the only way she could have possibly lost the role. And so as I was coming back from New York, that theater called me and asked if I would do the show. And so I was thrilled to get a chance to work with Shawn and, and have it be my sort of return to this regional theater that I'd worked at many times. And so we did get onstage and, and get pretty close, pretty fast. And in the midst of that, I was doing a solo show. And Shawn said, you know, "Would you want to do a cabaret show with me?" And I'd done quite a few of them. And I said, "Yes, I'd love to work with you again, but can we do something even bigger and better than a cabaret?" And from there we put a band together and we got charts and we found that we loved the same kind of music. And so we loved singing together. And I couldn't imagine not working with him and having him in my life every day. And so we started creating theatrical concerts. And they got really popular pretty quickly. And so we created, we created well over a dozen shows at this point. And, and we started touring them around the country. So that's how we met.

[00:06:10] Shawn Kilgore: And while we were doing that, we also became, because of Natalie, had also done a show with the Orlando Philharmonic. So we had sort of cultivated this relationship with, with that local orchestra here. And so we maintained that relationship and that brought us once they saw that we were what we were doing, they invited us to be guest vocalists. So then we would start to appear with the Orlando Philharmonic on a semi-regular basis for pops concerts and those kinds of things. And, you know, between the shows that we were producing and performing and the shows with the Philharmonic, our audience members would always come up to us and say that we reminded them of Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme.

[00:06:47] Natalie Cordone: Yes.

[00:06:48] Shawn Kilgore: So that led really sort of catapulted us into our next venture, which was creating a tribute show to, to those really incredible artists at the time. You know, we knew who they were, we had heard the names before and not really, you know, very well versed, you know, in their careers though. But now, you know, we have been-- that show, that's our longest running show. We've been touring with that show for almost eight years now. I think that show has played, you know, from everywhere to Las Vegas, to, to Miami. And so, so that show really has sort of been the biggest, the, the biggest thing that we've, that we've been focusing on over the past couple of years, but it's been great. We learned a lot about Steve and Eydie. They were really incredible entertainers and they both had incredible individual careers. And when they came together, for those out there that, that remember them, know that it was just magic and there was nothing like it. So for us to be able to sort of try to recreate that a little bit, we're not, we're not impersonating them. We are, we are simply tribute artists where, you know, we're, we're out there as ourselves singing their music. So that is sort of what we, that's what led us to this point now where we are now.

[00:07:55] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. And we're about to do that show again, coming up as we come out of everything that's happened recently, it's super exciting to get to kick off our season with it. And while we were waiting to do that show again, is when we started our live with Cordone and Kilgore show, which is an online show where we are the interviewers. And we bring on a different guest every week because we found that what we really wanted to do during this time was just accentuate the positive as much as possible. One of the things that I love about Shawn so much, and I think what made us click from the beginning, is that we really both like to air on the sunny side of whatever's going on in any situation. And we found that anytime we would jump online and just sing a song or the rare occasions, when we got to sing together, people really were resonating with the fact that we were bringing some kind of light and positivity to the world and we wanted to be able to bring other people in to do the same.

[00:08:55] So that's when we started our live interview show where we have it kind of like Regis and Kathy Lee back in the day, if they were to have sung together, which we do on every show, we get a chance to, to sing together, whether that's old footage of the last 10 years of our shows, or if we get to do it live and in person. And we get to bring on great guests, everyone from artists to dog rescues to people who are making drinks and bakeries and anything that makes us, you know, feel good. Yeah, and brings us positivity.

[00:09:30] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah, we say, we say our goal is to accentuate the positive. Yeah, like, like she said every week. And so it's a, it's a nice thing to do. We talk about, you know, good news stories. We're talking about good things that have happened to us. We invite our guests to share, you know, stories of what's happened in their weeks that might've been positive or good. Yeah, so we're really enjoying it. So not only so people can join us live for that when we do it live, but it is also available as a podcast currently on Spotify and Stitcher, and hopefully coming soon to all other podcast platforms.

[00:10:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is so cool. I am so enamored with your stories. Oh my word. And the way that they intersected and I just love what you're bringing to the world. I think this is just so cool. And yes, this whole time I've been smiling because what great stories you guys have to share about, you know, how, how you all got started. And I, I resonate with you, Natalie, about getting started in a little tutu. I started dancing when I was four, but it wasn't for the dancing itself. It was for the costumes. Let's be real.

[00:10:32]Shawn Kilgore: That's the one thing you guys have a lot in common. Natalie changes gowns I think maybe eight to 10, maybe 12 times in the show.

[00:10:40]Natalie Cordone: I do have, I hope you do too at this point, but I'm so lucky that my work wear is actually two full closets of gowns in my house. 'Cause that's what I get to get dressed up in to go to work. So I'm with you on the sequins and rhinestones front for sure.

[00:10:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, yeah, no completely. I, I still get extremely excited to put on a tutu and tiara. Still a wonderful moment. So yes, I resonate and yes, I do have actually in my house because you know, I also have a professional dance company. We have, I think, three closets that are fully devoted to dance costumes. It's ridiculous. But here we are. Yeah.

[00:11:22] Shawn Kilgore: That's it, but I've actually worn a tutu one time.

[00:11:25] Lindsey Dinneen: What, why?

[00:11:27] Shawn Kilgore: It happened once. It was actually in high school, believe it or not. I can't believe I did it. And I can't believe I'm still alive after doing it. It was in a show. It was like, you know, our show choir was doing a Best of Broadway thing and we did the number "You Gotta Get a Gimmick" from "Gypsy." And it was the two women came out to do the first two. And I came out and I was the ballerina butterfly. I was Tessitura.

[00:11:50] Natalie Cordone: Okay. So the only time that this gets weird is that Shawn and I have once in our lives played the same role in a musical two different musicals, but we both--

[00:11:59] Shawn Kilgore: Two different productions, yeah.

[00:12:00] Natalie Cordone: That's right. In the same musical, in "Nunsense." We both played Sister Mary Amnesia at two different times. He played it. I played it in "Nunsense" and he played it in "Nunsense Amen." so we've actually shared-- the three of us have all shared the experience of a tutu. And two of us have actually experienced being the same role on stage, which as a soprano and a baritone makes absolutely no sense, but we did it. We've done it.

[00:12:22] Shawn Kilgore: I'm actually on the national cast recording of "Nunsense Amen," which is also available on Spotify, you know, out there that as Sister Amnesia on the recording.

[00:12:30] Lindsey Dinneen: What! That is so cool. Oh, my word. You two. I love it. Okay. So I just, I was really tickled when you were talking about, you know, the first time you met and it was like, "Well, here we are. We're going to get to know each other real fast." Was that ever, and I guess I'm just curious about this in general, you know, not as an actress, I, is that ever just super awkward and difficult when you have to kind of jump into those roles and you're like, "Well, we're going to be up close and personal for awhile."

[00:12:59] Shawn Kilgore: It really, it really depends on the other actor. And I think, you know, for me, I feel really lucky. From the moment I met Natalie, I knew that I was going to be friends with her. That was that it was going to go beyond. I had not in my wildest imagination could have dreamt that we would be where we are today. But I knew that we were going to be friends and we were going to be in each other's lives for a while. So you get lucky. So you get lucky with that casting, you know, it's, it's all about the other person in that situation 'cause it could have been a nightmare. You know what I mean? It really could have been a nightmare from day one. But thankfully, you know, we really, we connected and, and, you know, it turns out to be the show itself was a, it was an incredible show and we got to do some really wonderful moments together. We got to play the happiness of, of being a couple into the, the heartache of, you know, thinking you are pregnant and then finding out that you're not, again. You know those scenes were pretty powerful and to get to go through that together every, you know, eight times a week for however many weeks, it was, I think that's something that, that bonded us also, you know,

[00:13:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, for sure.

[00:13:58] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, for sure. I was just going to say that chemistry piece of it is one thing that you can't make up, right? It's genuinely liking someone and then getting to fall in love with them over and over again. It's really special and I've, I've been lucky that I've never had a bad experience, but I've definitely had ones where you do sort of walk out and go, "Oh my gosh, I can do this eight times a week with this person. And it will be just a joy every night." It's so easy. And when you meet Shawn, everyone falls in love with Shawn. There's just no person that's ever not immediately been enamored with him. So I was very, very lucky on that front, but I think that it can be super awkward if you don't enjoy the person you're with. So I think that that was one of the things where, because we both had been professional actors for a long time, we both knew that when we met, it was like, "Oh, this is different. Like, this is special. Thank goodness. This is going to be fun." You know?

[00:14:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And I can, I can relate to that just on the dancer level of when you're doing partnering, it is so physically close. I mean, you're, you're literally touching each other so that you can be supported in pretty cool ways in these different lifts and all sorts of different things. And I, I relate to the fact that sometimes I've worked with partners where it felt like a lot more work. I mean, I was also always lucky to have people who were awesome to work with, but yeah, when I met the, the guy who is currently my dance partner was like a very similar experience of, "oh, this is easy." And this is a lot of fun versus, you know, like, feeling like it's more of a job. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so your tribute show, I'd, I'd love to delve into that a little bit more. I think that is such a cool thing that you guys have developed and, and obviously you've gotten to tour with it and do all sorts of wonderful things. How long of a process was that to sort of write the show and, you know, come up with all of the different components. I mean, I, I can only imagine from my production experience, but I feel like this is a whole 'nother level when you're doing something to be a tribute to people who came before you essentially.

[00:16:08] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah, absolutely. We sort of live, we sort of lived in their, in their music for a good period of time. Right? Not only like we listened to almost everything and like we went through there, you know, as much as possible. And to really try to, you know, look at every video we could find and read everything we could find. I mean, we, we fell in love with them, you know? And so then when we get to the point where we're creating the show, it really made us want to do them justice, you know?

[00:16:35] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. And knowing that they were such a special couple for those of you guys that don't know Steve and Edyie were, they worked together and they lived together and were married for 55 years. So, and they were on over 90 albums between the two of them both together and separately. And they had hugely successful solo careers, but they also were one of the best known duos at the time. And we're friends with Frank Sinatra and toured with him and on the Carol Burnett Show, people knew them from the Carol Burnett Show. Yeah, it's a legacy. Yeah, all of that music that it was really hard for us to whittle it down to just a 90 minute show. I mean, that was part of the hard part was going in and saying, "But we love all of this stuff." How do we try to make, you know, how do we try to do them justice and tell their story in a way that resonates with ours. And also get to do this incredible music that spans so many decades, but still has a real through line of sophisticated pop music. That's really what they were known for.

[00:17:41]And so that was the easy part was being able to sit back and sort of go, "Oh, what's good? Well, everything's good." Now the hard part is how do you pick what to do, what to do? And so, like Shawn said, we really did live in their world for a long time and, and touring with the show, one of the things that's been really great is that we've met a lot of people that were either related to, or were friends with, or worked with Steve and Eydie along the way. Everyone from like roadies, we had a guy who told us that he was, he worked backstage and that Edyie Gormé would sit there at a table Pac-Man that she used to travel with, like back when Gameboys, right, were a thing, or you couldn't put an app on your phone, she used to have one of those full tabletop things that they, she would sit and she'd have her hair in curlers with like a martini in one hand and a cigarette in the other, playing this tabletop. And you can't find that, right, in an interview with Johnny Carson. You can only find that from people who knew them. So that's been really cool too, to sort of live in that space and have people resonate with the show so much that we always try to do, you know, some kind of a talk back with the audience if we can, after the show. And they've taught us just as much as we've entertained them. So that's been a really neat thing to, to add to our repertoire along the way.

[00:18:55] Shawn Kilgore: It is. That's one of my favorite things about it is, is getting to meet the audiences afterward and getting, getting to meet the people who did work with them or they, they knew them. And getting those stories like that story that Natalie just told, like she said, not anything you would ever find on the internet. We would never know that if we didn't come across that person. And now that story is in the show, we tell that story in the show. So when people see the show, they're getting to hear, you know, the things that they knew and loved and remember about Steve and Edyie, but also some of these more personal touches that we're weaving into the story that we tell, you know, so it's, that's a really cool thing about it and, you know, see there's, their story really is probably, I would venture to say, even to this day, one of the greatest Hollywood love stories there is. They met on the original Tonight Show, you know, way, way back in the day when they, they were very young, they were cast as singers side by side-by-side with Steve Allen. They met there, you know, they fell in love. They were together for over 55 years and they managed to stay married and work together that closely for that long is, is really a remarkable thing, you know?

[00:20:01] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. And what they did so beautifully too, was that onstage, they jabbed at each other, like only a married couple really can. And that's something that I think we're really lucky to be able to bring sort of that wit and humor into the show because it keeps it alive and fresh for us even after all these years, because I think we might have a very similar dynamic to what Steve and Edyie had on interviews and stuff just as people. So that's been fun to recreate too. People, our audiences swear that we're married. I mean, they, you know, they can't believe it when we tell them, we don't really tell them in the show, but if people ask us afterwards, you know?

[00:20:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that is so fun. I mean, but, okay. So then to be compared to, to such an iconic couple and yeah, what a feat in general, let alone with the pressures of being super famous and having these amazing careers and things like that. So kudos to them, but was it ever incredibly intimidating at all to sort of think like, "Oh my goodness, people are comparing us to them. How do we do this justice?"

[00:21:05]Shawn Kilgore: I would say it's not really because we've never tried to impersonate them in any way. We really are going out there. We're singing in our own voices. We're talking as ourselves. We're not putting on their persona in any way. But we feel very good about the, the way that we're honoring them and their careers and their lives and what we've put together and our audience, you know, based on what the audience is say, you know, it's, it's a good-- we feel, we feel good about where we are with it and how it all just sort of came together. It all full sort of feels like it was meant to be for us. Maybe some might think a weird thing to say, but you know, the way our stories connected and how similar it is to their story, they met when they were cast on a show together, you know? So did we and we are doing this because people told us, you know, when they saw us perform together, that we reminded them of them. And so it just feels like the universe has told us this is what we're supposed to be doing.

[00:21:59] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, the only time I can say I was intimidated was when we were doing our show, we sat down in Vegas for awhile and we found out afterwards that Steve Lawrence's people had sent people to come see the show. And I talked to them on the phone afterwards and they, they loved the show. They thought it was great. I'm glad I didn't know they were in the audience the night they were there. But knowing that they had like sent people to make sure that the show was-- because they'd heard, well, I mean, we had, we had told them we were coming and they had they come to sort of vet the show and it was nice to hear that they, they enjoyed the show-- but that I'm glad I didn't know ahead of time, I would have been a ball of nerves if I had known that they were listening to me saying her iconic songs on stage.

[00:22:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. That is, that is so cool. Definitely meant to be, it sounds like. And now, I'm excited to hear that you guys are going to be able to go back to performing again. I know COVID sort of threw a curve ball at many different people, especially performing artists, but tell me a little bit more about your show that you're doing now, these live productions that interview people and things like that sounds like an incredible way to bring, like you said, positivity to the world. I'm just super curious how that came about and how that's going.

[00:23:13] Shawn Kilgore: The funny thing is it came about. So after like eight months about of not being together, not singing any of our tunes, we were both feeling good. We got together, we had maybe a bottle, maybe a bottle and a half of wine. And we were like, "Hey, let's play Russian roulette with our songs and see what we remember." And we decided to do it live on Facebook.

[00:23:34] Natalie Cordone: I'm glad that we know each other well enough that we were okay. If things didn't go well, because it was good, it was fun. It wasn't always good. I guess that's a good...

[00:23:43] Shawn Kilgore: That's a perfect way of saying it, but even when it, yeah, even when it wasn't, it was still fun, you know, so that's kind of how it all started. We enjoyed it. We had, you know, we got great feedback from that and that's sort of pushed us in the direction of trying to do something on a more regular basis. And, and now we're sort of, have delved into this world of podcasting and podcasting with video, and I'm really excited about the, about the direction, the direction of it.

[00:24:08]Natalie Cordone: And Sean and I had both expected along the way that we would be broadcast journalists. It's odd. That was where we kind of had both begun thinking our careers would end up and it's fun to have brought it full circle where that's really sort of what all podcasters and video podcasters are doing now. And it's neat to come back to that sort of love of ours that we had to put aside while we were touring all over the place for the last umpteen years together.

[00:24:33] Shawn Kilgore: And we really are about sort of modeling the show after sort of, so it is sort of modeled after that sort of Live with Regis. And I always say Regis, but...

[00:24:41] Natalie Cordone: I like the Regis and Kathie Lee and we can stick with that one. We can go old school, Shawn, that's alright.

[00:24:46] Shawn Kilgore: Kathy Lee would sing sometimes, but she would not have Regis sing with her.

[00:24:50] Natalie Cordone: No, that's for sure. I think she might've pushed him off the stage, but she wouldn't have the bottom line.

[00:24:54]Shawn Kilgore: So we sort of modeled after that kind of field. So it has a very fun lighthearted, we wanted it to be very conversational. We didn't want it to be about any one particular topic so that we could have, you know, it seems like, you know, even like how you're doing, you know, you have a variety of people in the arts, which is awesome. But yeah, so we sort of like, we, like Natalie said, we next week are having a, a baker on the show. And then, you know, we were having some other podcasters on the show and we have had musicians and like Natalie said, pet dog rescues. We've had, so open to just anything that would make anyone feel good or lift them up after, you know, a long day. Or a long year...

[00:25:31] Natalie Cordone: Yeah, that seems to drag out.

[00:25:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, that's fantastic. I'm so glad you guys are doing that. And so, and I'm sure I have more questions, but I'm sure that there are people who are super interested in following your journey and connecting with you and, and, you know, getting to experience these live shows. Is there a way for people to find you and connect with you and, and support you?

[00:25:54]Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely.

[00:25:55] Natalie Cordone: They sure can! They can find us on Facebook. They can find us on YouTube and they can also find us on our website. And you can always look us up as Cordone and Kilgore. So if you find us on Facebook, it's Cordone and Kilgore, Instagram: Cordone and Kilgore, YouTube: Cordone and Kilgore, and then on the web it's cordoneandkilgore.com. So super easy. We are very unimaginative when it comes to naming things. So you can just always find us as.

[00:26:22]Shawn Kilgore: It's just us. That's what, you know, this is a beautiful thing. It's just us.

[00:26:26]Natalie Cordone: All the time everywhere. Our show, as of right now is streaming live at 7:00 PM Eastern time, 4:00 PM Pacific on most Mondays. And you can always find it after the fact on those channels as well.

[00:26:40] Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely. And they are also posted to IGTV because we're not able to go live to Instagram, so they are edited and then posted to IGTV. And then again, you know, we take then the audio from it and then do an edit of that for audio podcasts that are currently available on Spotify and Stitcher. And then and again, hopefully we'll be expanding that audience pretty soon as well.

[00:27:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Well, that's, that's very exciting. I am personally delighted to follow your journey and also to support this live show in particular, because that just sounds fantastic. I can't wait to tune in, but yeah. So I'm, I'm just curious. I'm sure this has happened to you both on multiple occasions, but are there any stories that stand out to you? Where either somebody was experiencing art that you were creating or, you know, a show or something like that, or that you personally got to witness that was really impactful? It was kind of this moment to remember, like, I, I need to file this away because this is really special.

[00:27:44]Shawn Kilgore: Yeah.

[00:27:45]Natalie Cordone: From my own personal experience and watching someone else create that really moved me in a way that I'll never forget. I've seen so many shows, both my friends and other professionals' work, but the one that hit me, the strongest that I can sit here and put myself right back in the theater was-- I watched Audra McDonald do "110 in the Shade." And there is a song called "Old Maid" towards the end of the first act, I believe. And, and she ripped me to shreds. And I just remember, I'm still, I'm getting chills, just thinking about it as I'm sitting here. And it was the way that she connected to the material that she was singing. And it was that she was, she's a brilliant vocalist, but she was really experiencing that, the moment in a way that I could feel in my own body and my own soul, the way that she was experiencing that moment for that role. And I was sobbing in the audience and the audience was completely full.

[00:28:54] I had gone to theater by myself, which I do often, and I didn't know either of the people sitting next to me and I know they thought I was nuts. I kept getting like those sideways glances of ,why is this? Why are you crying? Now the whole entire audience wasn't sobbing. And it, for me was one of those pinnacle moments of great art that I got to experience and is something that no one will ever get to do again, if you weren't in that theater. And I think that's what I love so much about live performance is that it is temporal. And when it's done, it's done. And any time I get to experience live performance, dance, music, if it's being made in front of you, that's something that no one can take away from you, right? My house could burn to the ground. I could lose everything I have, but no one can take that experience for me. And that's one of the things that I love so much about art and about live performance.

[00:29:50] Shawn Kilgore: That's a great answer. I feel like that's why we as artists and why everybody who loves art comes back to it because you're always, I don't know. It's sort of like, when you have a moment like that, you want another one, so you seek it out. And so you're, it's like trying to chase that high. Yeah. I love it. So that, but that was a great answer, I think, but for me, I've had many impactful moments with art. My most recent one though, however, was getting to see a Bette Midler performance of "Hello, Dolly" in New York City for me now that I can tell you why I sobbed, not all the way through, but there were moments where, I mean, I, and not for, because it was, it was just the most amazing-- I don't know. And I'm getting chills thinking, just thinking about it, talking about it. Cause it was, you felt like I don't even know how-- I can't even put it in words. I'm at a loss for words, trying to even explain what it was, how it was, but...

[00:30:45] Natalie Cordone: Well, I know that when they came out for "Put on Your Sunday Clothes," and I know we've talked about this, when they did the "Parade of the Costumes," it's what you've wanted every musical to ever be in all the world. And I know, I remember you talking about how she just touched you so much and I, I can feel it listening to you talking about it.

[00:31:04] Shawn Kilgore: Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Like, and after that iconic, the iconic "Hello, Dolly" number and just the roar of the, you know, in full Broadway theater. And as everyone like stood up and I, I swear it went on for like five minutes or more the, the standing ovation, like it was, yeah. I just love it. I love, yeah, that was awesome.

[00:31:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. That is so cool. Well, yeah, you both have incredible stories about art being impactful and really like the, the idea of the art addict.

[00:31:38]Natalie Cordone: We might have to make a t-shirt.

[00:31:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Thankfully it's the healthiest addiction you can probably have, right? Oh, man. I feel like that needs to be explored further. We might, you know, that's fantastic.

[00:31:52] Natalie Cordone: Art might make you poor, but it'll definitely get you high.

[00:31:53]Lindsey Dinneen: This is perfect. I love it. Oh my gosh. And I totally resonate with what you were both talking about with live theater. I mean, I'm so grateful that there are so many avenues nowadays to view art virtually whether it's a, you know, it's a musical or something else, but there's nothing that compares to live theater, even as a performer. I feel, you know, if you're taped it's, it's nice. I mean, I'm glad to have that so I can go back in and see it again. But there's nothing like that feeling of just being on stage and looking out into the audience and hopefully it's a super dark theater, so you don't see anyone's face, you know? Oh, that's awesome. That's so exciting. So when's your first live performance back?

[00:32:40]Natalie Cordone: We are so lucky that we will be performing at the Grand Oshkosh in Oshkosh, Wisconsin coming on June the 11th. It's a Friday night and there'll be a live broadcast of it as well that's completely free. So if this happens to air before June 11th than anyone wants to watch it, if you go to the, if you Google the Grand Oshkosh or watch any of our shows, we always try to put up a link for it. That night you can watch the free live broadcast of the show along with the 50 or so people that are going to be allowed into the house that are going to be socially distanced in the balcony for the night, but we get to have our three piece band with us. We're going to get to actually tour up there again.

[00:33:19]Shawn Kilgore: And it will be a really nice stream too. It's going to be a three camera shoot and that's all thanks to, I believe a sponsor, right, Natalie? Somebody, a corporate sponsor, that's sponsoring these, the stream so that we can share the show with, you know, an even broader audience, which is awesome.

[00:33:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is fantastic. You know, it's so interesting because again, in so many ways artists have had to really switch gears or be a little bit differently innovative, I would say. I think in general artists are very good at adapting, but yeah, I do like the fact that it's kind of opened the world to some of our artistic endeavors that might not necessarily get to see. Like, I wouldn't necessarily get to see that show, but now I can. And that's, that's really exciting, you know, and just to have those opportunities. So yeah.

[00:34:06] Shawn Kilgore: Absolutely. There've been some crazy-- I just finished a project where it was eight actors, all in different states, all working with green screens. And it was a sketch comedy show, and that would have never happened, you know, if this didn't happen. So yeah, absolutely. There have been some, some good, some really interesting and cool things to come out of it, for sure.

[00:34:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, your stories are just so fantastic. And I literally have been sitting here smiling the whole time. So this has been fantastic and wonderful. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you two would be up for that.

[00:34:44] Shawn Kilgore: Sure.

[00:34:45] Natalie Cordone: Oh yeah!

[00:34:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:34:52]Natalie Cordone: Ooh. I feel like we should have studied. All right. So what is art to you? Apparently we answered this earlier and the answer is like a drug. I think art to me is self-expression in a way where you're attempting to communicate something that is incommunicable to another person.

[00:35:10] Shawn Kilgore: That's good. I think for me, it's the opportunity to escape.

[00:35:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:35:23]Shawn Kilgore: To keep it alive, to keep it going.

[00:35:26]Natalie Cordone: I think for me, it's to tell the truth, whatever your truth is in that moment, to be vulnerable enough, to be honest, in a way where you are sharing something real, sharing a piece of yourself with people that you might never meet or really get to know.

[00:35:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to artists who put their work out there and provide some context behind that, whether it's, you know, as simple as a title, or whether it's show notes, whether it's the context behind it, the inspiration sort of that, that prompted it. Versus exclusive referring to artists that put their work out there, but don't provide the context and basically leave it solely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:36:22]Shawn Kilgore: I, for me, I think inclusive because it should be also about the educational piece of it and to let young people growing up today know how it all works, you know, and hopefully to be able to inspire.

[00:36:37] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. I think for me it can be, it can be valid in either direction. I think it's really up to the discretion of the artist as to what they want that experience to be for their viewer or their audience. I know for myself, I much prefer to make what would be considered inclusive art. And I think for the most part, I prefer to be the viewer of it as well. But I think that both of them are valid. It just depends on what the project is. I think, I know that wasn't really an answer, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick D, all of the above.

[00:37:13] Shawn Kilgore: That's always the best-- if it's an option, I'm going with it.

[00:37:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. No. And, and you're absolutely right. You're both right. I mean, there's value in both. And, and I think it's, it's really interesting to hear the answers to that particular question, because everyone has a different, you know, opinion, just like art is subjective, so is that question. I love it. Well again, thank you guys so very much for being here today. I'm just so thrilled to hear your stories. And I'm, I'm very excited about what you guys are doing. I'm going to mark it in my calendar to catch that live stream, because that's really exciting to me too. And, you know, with your, with your live shows that you're doing weekly, I think-- I just know that what you bring to the world brings so much positivity and light and value. And I just commend you two for doing that. And for choosing to look on the bright side, choosing to highlight the good that's happening, because that is so needed. And I just know that what you're doing is making a tangible difference in people's lives. And so I just want to commend you for that. And thank you for that because you know, it, it does take you time and effort and I appreciate it. So thank you.

[00:38:29] Shawn Kilgore: That's very nice, Lindsey. Thank you so much. This was really a lot of fun.

[00:38:33] Natalie Cordone: Yeah. Thank you. And we hope that you will be a friend of our show. We would love to have you on as a guest, not to put you on the spot, but we would love to have you. And so hopefully we'll get a chance to collaborate again because your spirit is so open and kind, and the work that you do here to, to gain the following of the people who rely on getting to hear you every week. We just were glad that we were able to share.

[00:38:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And, oh my gosh, yes! I would absolutely love to be a guest. That would be a huge honor.

[00:39:01]Natalie Cordone: We'll have our people call your people.

[00:39:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you again so much. I'm very much looking forward to that opportunity as well, but also, thank you so much for everyone who has listened to this episode. And, oh my goodness, if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would just love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:26] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

View Details

In today's episode, I welcome Jeff Leisawitz! He is a life coach for creatives, author, and an award-winning musician/music producer and filmmaker. His episode is full of advice for aspiring artists as he shares his journey from summer camp and learning to play the drums, to now helping other creatives live their dreams. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is of Jeff himself!)

Get in touch with Jeff Leisawitz: www.jeffleisawitz.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

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Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 53 - Jeff Leisawitz

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Jeff Leisawitz. He is a life coach for creative types. And did I get it right again?

[00:00:46] Jeff Leisawitz: Totally got it right!

[00:00:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes! Day made. But I'm so excited to chat with you today, Jeff. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:55] Jeff Leisawitz: Of course happy to be here. Thank you.

[00:00:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I'd love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, how you've just sort of developed obviously into this really cool life coaching career and just more about you.

[00:01:11] Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, I have always been the creative type. When I was a little kid, I was what you might call the weird friendless kid. I don't know if you, or, you know, any of your listeners there can relate to that, but it seems to be going around. So, you know, I was kind of always locked in, maybe not locked in my imagination, but you know, had a magical world, basically. And when I was about maybe seven or eight, I went to summer camp and it was a sleepover camp. And this was like the late seventies. And there was an extra cabin where a counselor brought up his drum kit and every night after dinner, he would play the drums. And I would sit outside, you know, maybe 30 or 40 feet under a tree, fireflies are coming out, you know, and just listening to this.

[00:02:01] And this was, you know, this was when classic rock was really starting. You know, this was Springsteen and Genesis and you know, Bowie, and The Stones and all that great stuff. So anyway, one day he invited me into this little cabin to listen to him play the drums, and it completely blew my mind. So I, you know, a few years later declared to my parents that I was going to be a rock star. When you're in high school, it's like, what do you want to be when you grow up? Oh, rockstar, you know, of course.

[00:02:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course.

[00:02:29] Jeff Leisawitz: So, yeah, of course. So you know, I've done tons of music and writing and filming, you know, filmmaker, I wrote a book, all this kind of stuff, as well as being around these things. I was a music journalist for many years, but I've always been into helping people and optimizing the human experience, you know, like how can we have a better life? How can we not only achieve more, but just have a richer experience of life. So I practiced, I trained and practice something called NLP, stands for neuro-linguistic repatterning. I practiced that for many years, and then I got into coaching for creatives. So, you know, I work with artists and illustrators and songwriters and screenwriters and authors and really just all kinds of people. And it's, it's fantastic to help people find their truth, help them be more authentically creative, and for the ones who choose to be more successful you know, business-wise with this stuff. So that's like the super brief bio right there.

[00:03:39] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Perfect. Well, and yes, I think super brief bio is a good description because there were so many times I wanted to be like, wait, you did what? So this is cool. So, okay. So you mentioned being a filmmaker, can you share more about that experience? That's a pretty unique undertaking.

[00:03:57] Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, I've always been a writer. I've always loved movies. So I wrote, I, you know, I took all these classes. I was mentored by the top professor at UCLA, which is a very big deal and you know, writing all these screenplays running around Hollywood. And what you basically try to do is get a producer to buy your screenplay, and then they put the money behind it and they get the crew and the stars and all that and make the movie. Well, I did that for years and I would get all these bites on my stuff, but not a sale, no sales. So I was like, you know what, "Screw this." I, I tend to default to the punk rock attitude. Okay. I have to step back for a second. So one of the tenants of punk rock is D I Y. Do it yourself. And that has always served me well, as it served you, what really any, every creative person. So, you know, with this DIY attitude, I was like, "Well, if you guys don't want to, you know, buy my script and do it, well, I'll write a short film and do it myself."

[00:05:04] So I wrote the short film, it's called "Mystic Coffee," and I figured, "Well, I've got a thousand dollars. That ought to cover it. I mean, that's a lot of money, right?" Well, at the end of the day, this 12 minute film was $11,000 to create like, "Ooh, wow." You know, however it turned out great. It was a great experience, all this and that. So then what you do in general is put the word out to film festivals. And if you win film festivals, that's kind of like a big feather in your cap, and you're more likely to get hired or sell your screenplays and stuff like that. So I put it out to all these film festivals and I didn't get anywhere. I, I just didn't win anything. I'm just like, "Geez, wow. Maybe I'm not as good at this as I thought." And then I got this call from like straight out of the blue, and it was this woman who worked for a streaming video service like Netflix, it's called gaia.com, and she's like, "A friend of mine at a film festival showed me your movie. We want to license this for international distribution and pay you for it." I'm like, "Oh my God!" I basically skipped the film festival. Essentially, I leap-frogged over it to the goal. It was sort of like the next goal. So that thing has been streamed at least tens of thousands of times all over the world and, you know, getting royalties on that. So how cool is that? Right? You just do it, you just do your thing.

[00:06:35] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing! Congratulations. How exciting. Oh my gosh. I love stories like that.

[00:06:41]Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. And you never know, you sorta never know when, when and where the success will be, because like I said, you know, after submitting it to all these film festivals, I was like, "Wow, maybe this thing stinks, but clearly it did not because you know, a real company picks it up and, you know, licensed it."

[00:07:02] Lindsey Dinneen: That's, that's a huge deal. And I think you're absolutely right. You kind of touched on it just briefly, but I've always had this personal philosophy of "do all the things," which is a little extreme, but in the sense of like, you know, when an opportunity comes knocking, you never know where it will lead. And so if it's, if it's in line with who you are and what you're trying to do, just go for it. Just try it because again, you just don't know, and magic can happen that way. And you know, one introduction can lead to the next can lead to the next, which is just feels miraculous. It's like the whole concept of overnight success, which is not a thing, but you know, eventually pieces fall in place.

[00:07:45] Jeff Leisawitz: They do. And that's actually a chapter in my book, which I call "Yes And." "Say Yes And," which means, you know, invite those possibilities towards you. And then the end is let's add value. You know, what can we do to take this opportunity or this new relationship or whatever and up, up level it, make it better, make it cooler, make it more interesting. Make it more creative.

[00:08:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, sounds like our philosophies are very in line, so there you go. There you go. Okay. That's really awesome. Congrats on that. And definitely I'm super excited to check it out. I'll, you know, I'm highly going to encourage anyone listening to this to obviously go check it out as well, too. So that's, that's fantastic. And then you wrote a book. That's a pretty big deal. How was that process? Was that like, obviously you've already had writing experience of course, but was it a different kind of different animal or how did that whole thing work out?

[00:08:45] Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I you know, I live in Seattle, so it is often a thing for me to go to the, one of the many, many independent coffee shops in our town and guzzle coffee on the weekend and do some writing, and I'll write poems or just free-write or, you know, just like really anything, screenplays, whatever. And one day I just kind of read this essay or something and I was done and I was like, "Geez, this would kind of be, it's kind of like a good start for a book." So I really didn't think about it. I just wrote the book. And from there, it's kind of taken off, lots of positive feedback and it's out there helping people all over the world. So, yeah, I didn't try to do it. I just kind of did it.

[00:09:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. And what is the book about? Is it sort of life philosophies and, and, well, I'm just curious.

[00:09:42] Jeff Leisawitz: The book is called "Not Effing Around: the No BS Guide for Getting your Creative Dreams off the Ground." So it is, you know, sort of manual or manifesto or something to help people, you know, do the things that they love. I've spent decades essentially banging my head against the wall to get to the, you know, to the successes that I've had. In the meantime, I've had way more failures, and this book is really about helping people avoid as much of the pain and move closer to their dreams without that. So, you know, it's kind of like a short guide. It's like the, it's basically the book that I wish I read when I was 20.

[00:10:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Nice. Well, thank you for writing that for everyone else so they can have that kind of guide.

[00:10:36] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I'm happy to give a free, free eBooks to people on my website so they can just check that out.

[00:10:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, okay. Yes, definitely.

[00:10:47] Jeff Leisawitz: You can buy it on Amazon too if you want. You can get it free as an e-book if you like.

[00:10:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Brilliant. All right. And now you're also doing life coaching and it's specifically for creators or people with a creative bent. Is that correct?

[00:11:04] Jeff Leisawitz: That is correct. It is, you know, like I said, artists and musicians and screenwriters and people like that, but it's also, I also work with a lot of what I call heart-centered solopreneurs, right? These are people who want to do some kind of business or side hustle, but it's more than just the money, right? They, they want to create a world and create some income, but it's not just about selling some widgets, that kind of thing.

[00:11:33]Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. And so you're encouraging... well... I'm extrapolating... Is part of what you're doing to help, especially creative types, understand the essential business fundamentals, if they want to be successful. Like as kind of helping them have an entrepreneurial mindset or what all do you do to help?

[00:11:57] Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, that is exactly right. There are, as you know, zillions of creatives out there who would love to be making money from their art or whatever it is that they do. However many people just-- almost because they have such a creative mind-- they sort of lack the basic elements of what, how business works, how, you know, internet and social media marketing, finding a demographic, like all these kinds of things. So I fortunately, you know, I've got the creative side of me, but I also am the son of a, you know, my mom had her own business in the eighties as you know at home business as a woman. It was kind of amazing. So I, I got a lot of this, you know, this entrepreneurial spirit. And her parents owned a shop in Pennsylvania, you know, way back in the fifties and forties and stuff like that. So I've kind of got both sides of that set. Of course I've studied both sides of this extensively, so yeah, I can help people get their creativity monetized, essentially.

[00:13:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes, we, we need more of that. And from people who also understand the creative mindset, I would say, because it is a little bit, you know, different coming into the business world, if you have more of a creative bent. So it's, it's great that that's what, who you cater to specifically and help them, you know, actually make a living that will support their dreams and goals. So, yeah, that's fantastic.

[00:13:38] Jeff Leisawitz: Right, because it can be done. Plenty of people do it, many more people do not do it. And that is, you know, there's a level of talent obviously that you need to have or develop and then it's business. Just like any other business.

[00:13:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. Okay. So I know that you are also a musician and a photographer, I believe as well. Do you want to share a little bit about those opportunities that you've had?

[00:14:05]Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. I mean, I've been making music since I was, you know, like I told you that story there as a little kid, and then at about maybe 14, I got my first guitar and I would just write songs in the basement, hundreds of songs and you know, moved to Los Angeles to look for opportunities in the music biz, eventually moved up to Seattle and that's where I got into computer recording very early. Way, way before, you know, everybody does this now, but back in '98 or '99, it was very difficult and very expensive, but I got into it, and I started pushing my music towards film and TV and had quite a bit of success with that. Thousands of placements, background, you know, music on film and TV, which all generates royalties and stuff like that. I made an album which was electronic versions of U2 songs. I've been a U2 fan my whole life. So I got a bunch of female singers and did that, and that thing's had over a million plays on the streaming services. So that's cool. And I also won a big award, Best Independent Electronic Artist in the World in 2000. So that...

[00:15:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Woah! That's a huge deal. Congratulations.

[00:15:27] Jeff Leisawitz: It's a huge deal. I don't know if I buy it, but you know, it was pretty good.

[00:15:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:15:33] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah. So I've worked with tons of musicians and now I actually teach songwriting and recording at a college up here near Seattle. So I've been in music really, you know, since I've been a kid.

[00:15:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Oh my goodness. How cool! You have gotten some of the most interesting, coolest opportunities, and obviously you've worked so hard for them. It's not like they just got handed to you or anything like that, but that is super cool.

[00:15:58]Jeff Leisawitz: And that is for sure. You know, and, and seriously talking about opportunities. You know, most opportunities in this world are the ones that we make, right? I mean, out of, out of the hundred or a thousand things or something that has advanced my career or whatever, I am sure that 95% of them I have created in some way. It almost never happens that somebody bangs on my door and says, "You know, here's, here's the thing. And here's money. Go."

[00:16:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I do. Yes. I am in complete agreement with you on that of make your own opportunities is really important. Open your own doors. Yes, absolutely. So I'm curious... I know that, you know, art has been a part of your life for almost all of it, if not the whole thing. Are there any moments that kind of stand out as experiences either with maybe somebody reacting to your art or you reacting to someone else's art that was just kind of like a moment to remember this because it stands out?

[00:17:06]Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. Well, I mean the first one was definitely, you know, at the summer camp. Fast forward like probably 10 or 12 years or something, I played an open mic night at a local bar when I was in college, and my parents came out to see this and we're playing and, oh man, we, we were really freaking good that night. And I look out, you know, from the stage or from the bar, and I see my mom dancing on a table and I'm like, I'm like, "Oh my God, like, I'm done. You know, like I've completed my mission on earth kind of thing." So that was, you know, that was pretty cool. That was a big moment.

[00:17:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. Oh my goodness. Yes, you have, you have made it when... Oh, that's fantastic. Cool. I'm sure that there are lots of us listening who would want to definitely get in contact with you. Is there a way for us to do that? I know you mentioned your movie, but what other ways can we sort of get in touch with you and support your work?

[00:18:20] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, your best bet is to just find my website, jeffleisawitz.com. And from there, I've got a ton of blog posts, links, all kinds of stuff. Like I said, you can download my book, if you like. And also I do complimentary 15 minute coaching sessions with people. So if you think it might be something good for you and you just want to check it out and see how I can help you, I would love to meet you. So you just go in there and find the coaching page. And click click and we'll see you on Zoom before you know it.

[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, so now I'm curious, obviously you've had such a tremendous background and, and have worked in so many different art forms. And I would say I'm sure coaching is also an art form and a science, but I'm just curious: what advice would you have for somebody who is interested in trying to support themselves and be an artist full-time but maybe is hesitant to take that leap. So maybe somebody kind of starting out, what, what would you say to encourage somebody in that situation?

[00:19:27]Jeff Leisawitz: Well, one thing is commit, right? And that doesn't mean commit every minute of your life, you know, but it means commit to what is comfortable for you. If you've got a full-time job and you need that, you know, as most people do, commit to doing one hour in the evening, three nights a week to work on your art, and three hours on the weekend, or, you know, whatever, you know, it feels right to you, but commit to it and then do it. And you'll start to see amazing progress. Another piece is learn the business. If you're trying to make this into a business and not just a fun thing to do, you need to understand how your industry works. And the more you understand that, the more chance you have of making money really.

[00:20:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:20:17] Jeff Leisawitz: There's always a lot to learn.

[00:20:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so true. I don't think we ever stop learning. Or, I hope not anyway. Awesome. Well, I, I love to ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with me doing that with you too.

[00:20:32] Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:20:34]Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Awesome. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:20:41]Jeff Leisawitz: Art is anything that a human creates with the intention of expression.

[00:20:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Perfect. Concise. And I like it. All right. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:21:00]Jeff Leisawitz: To authentically create. I mean, that's it. So you create with the truth of their experience, whatever that is. It's not about building skills, although that's great if you do, right? I mean, you look at it again and in music, punk rock, you know, the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and, you know, bands like that, vape sucked as musicians, but you could feel it, right? They were putting their heart and truth into the music and that's why it resonated so much.

[00:21:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Perfect. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit in this question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that whether it's the inspiration behind it, or program notes or title or something just to kind of help understand where the artist was coming from. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts the work out there and doesn't provide context, so he or she leaves it solely up to the viewer to interpret it the way they will.

[00:22:13]Jeff Leisawitz: It's up to the artist. You know, I can't, I wouldn't comment on that. It's like, whatever you, whatever you feel is right for what you're doing is right.

[00:22:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. But as a participant, what do you personally prefer? Or do you like a little bit of both?

[00:22:30]Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I mean, as far as visual art goes, in my opinion, if the art doesn't affect you by looking at it, if it's visual art, it has not done its job, right? It's trying to connect through that medium. So yeah, in that sense, I would go with that. And I would say if you have some kind of notes or artist's statement or whatever on the side, fantastic. It backs it up and it enriches it and can deepen the experience. So once again, both.

[00:23:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Cool. Well, all right, so I'm just interested to know, are there certain things that you're working towards now or are you going to be, I mean, in theory, are you going to be writing more or producing more music or what's kind of future Jeff's plans.

[00:23:26] Jeff Leisawitz: Right. Well, Lord knows, but I recently just finished-- believe it or not-- a, a screenplay about summer camp. So I am currently running around, but phone calling and emailing producers and things like that. So I'm working on screenplays, but I'm also working on music. I'm doing a bunch of guided meditations. And as soon as the freaking COVID is over, I'm going to bust out my camera and take about 10 million pictures.

[00:23:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds perfect. That sounds so good. I cannot wait. Yeah. And travel and all those good things that we're missing, but, well, that sounds fantastic. Congrats on the new screenplay and everything. I'll, I'm sure we'll look forward to getting to see that produced too. And yeah, so I would definitely encourage any of our listeners who are interested in checking out Jeff's work, obviously a very accomplished artist and life coach. And if you are in the position of feeling like the next level for you is getting some personalized coaching, I can just tell from even just a brief conversation, that Jeff is definitely your guy. So I would highly recommend even just starting with that 15 minute call and kind of seeing where that takes you. Because obviously Jeff has a lot of wisdom to share, so yeah.

[00:24:49]Jeff Leisawitz: Thank you. And yeah, I love talking to people, so bring it on.

[00:24:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, Jeff, thank you so very much for being here today. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. And I loved everything from the summer camp. I love that that's what your next endeavor is about. I think that's fantastic. And I just really appreciate all the wisdom, little nuggets you shared along the way. And, so, thank you. Thank you for contributing art to the world. Thank you for what you're doing for creatives and really helping and making a difference. So I, I value that and, and thank you for that.

[00:25:24] Jeff Leisawitz: Thank you. And thanks for having me on your show.

[00:25:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you also to everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:25:41] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Christopher John Garcia! Chris has had an amazing career journey as a museum curator and historian for the Computer History Museum, as well as podcaster and painter, and he talks about everything from AI-generated art to his podcast that discusses pieces of artwork in under three minutes. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of one of Chris' original pieces of artwork!)

Get in touch with Christopher John Garcia: https://www.facebook.com/JohnnyEponymous | https://www.instagram.com/johnnyeponymous/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 52 - Christopher John Garcia

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Christopher John Garcia, who is a curator, historian, and podcaster, and I'm just so excited to chat with him all about art and all the different ways that he has engaged with art and that he's currently still doing. And so thank you so much for being here, Chris. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:01:00] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, thanks so much for having me always glad to chat.

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. If it's about art, I'm in.

[00:01:05]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well again, thanks for being here. And I would just love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, how you got involved in your various art forms, and maybe a little of where you are today, too.

[00:01:21] Christopher John Garcia: Cool. Well, it's started long, long ago. 1999. I became a curator at the Computer History Museum and my focus was on computer graphics, music and art with an emphasis on early computer art. So 1950s through about 1980. And by going into that, you know, I had a little bit of an art history background. I minored in it in college and I've always been an art nerd. And I ended up starting a couple of podcasts that were actually centered around early computer art. One was called " Engineers and Enthusiasts," which is on a hiatus as soon as I can find all my files. But the second one is a "Three-Minute Modernist," which is, I take a single artwork usually, and I break it down in three minutes as sort of a, an emotional impact statement is what I do in three minutes, which can be a lot harder for big pieces than little you'd be surprised. But yeah, and so all of that. Then for some reason, I ended up staying home a lot in 2020, and I decided, you know, maybe I should become a painter. And so I, you know, I had never painted before. And so I decided, well fine. And I started doing a lot of my own paintings, which are semi-abstract expressionists works. What I usually do is I just squeeze paint directly onto paper, put another piece on top of it and then peel them apart. And then I'll do this with several sheets. So it's sort of a combination printing, painting methodology. But yeah, so it's, I'm your basic all around art nerd.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. Well, I am so excited to hear more about all of the different things, but especially the podcast. I'm so intrigued by that concept. I love it. What a challenge too, so kudos to you. But yeah. Okay. So breaking down artwork and sort of talking about it and having the constraint of three minutes, first of all, where did that idea come from? And then I guess second of all, how hard is that?

[00:03:16]Christopher John Garcia: Well, the idea actually came from a Doctor Who podcast. There is a Doctor Who podcast called "Two-Minute Time Lord." And it is it takes a Doctor Who episode or a topic surrounding Dr. Who and does a two minute episode. That's basically what you would say around the water cooler. And I figured, you know what? If it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough to be stolen by the gander. And I decided to take that concept and apply it to art because one, art has sort of discreet chunks. And I was seeing a lot of works that were-- I wouldn't say small-- but they were works that you could sort of come up with at least a nugget that you could expand on in for a couple of minutes without problem.

[00:04:03] And I learned that by looking at a discreet portion, it gave you one, a chance to really sort of look across the board. You could look at one piece from various areas, but two, it allowed you to go really fast. And so my proof of concept was a good five episodes before I released anything and realized, yeah, this will work. And then I realized that if I kept it to just modern and contemporary art, it would allow me to single out one area instead of going all the way around the world, having to deal with all the things, 'cause once you get into the more realist stuff and the movement and the genre works, you kind of get, you have to go longer. But with the contemporary stuff, you could more deal with the impact of the work on particularly, in this case, me and how it emotionally triggered sensations and feelings and take it sort of a little bit out of a, sort of a more academic realm and into a realm of art appreciation that I really love. Things like, you know, Sister Wendy, for example, used to be a favorite of mine, but there's not really one of those for contemporary arts, so much that deals directly with individual pieces. And, you know, I figured it'd be a great place to go. And I realized that "art podcast" is a crowded field. And I said, me too.

[00:05:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Well, good for you. And again, I love that concept and I just think that's so cool. So, okay. So in dealing with modern and contemporary art, are you-- just out of curiosity-- are you going to galleries and being inspired by something particular or are you finding things on the internet or how is your process of deciding which art to kind of feature and unpack?

[00:05:54] Christopher John Garcia: Well, I have a very complex algorithm to do that. Random. Basically, yeah, I go to a lot of museums. In particular, I go to SF MOMA, the Anderson collection at Stanford, the Cantor Art Museum when I can get there to moment itself. And I also have a massive collection of photographs because I'm that guy at a museum who takes a picture of everything. So it's really based largely on what I encounter typically at museums. I do some web stuff. In particular, I'm starting to do more stuff with Instagram artists who I meet typically through Clubhouse who are working. And I find pieces that really resonate with something I speak of a lot. Like the next issue I'm doing is about a work that very much reminds me of two of my favorite artists, Lichtenstein and then Sam Francis, and it looks like what happened if they were to work together.

[00:06:46]But yeah, it's all over the place. One of our recent episodes was about the work of Sol LeWitt that they turned into an app. I think it was by The Met, but it might've been a sort of an associated group that was how Sol LeWitt and his work-- and it's this very contained app that actually gives you a lot of different views into how Sol LeWitt goes. So it's a little bit across the board. I do some video art, a little bit of music, but I tend towards sound art and soundscape type stuff. And sort of looking at how they are still, it's all about the effect of you more emotionally, but also there's sort of what I call the emotional intellect, which is a thought that you have that isn't necessarily logical or reasonable, but it is a thought that provokes that same sort of region.

[00:07:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Very cool. Well, and you know, random is good too. I like complex algorithm. That was entertaining. So, okay. So yeah, that sounds like a really interesting way to go about it in terms of, you know, it's, it's also just like, well, what is speaking to me right now? And then, so I'm curious, in your process for these episodes, I know you've talked about maybe unpacking it sort of on an emotional level in what it evokes, but are you also going into the history? Are you looking into the context behind it from the artist's point of view or mostly just sticking with your own personal interpretation?

[00:08:20]Christopher John Garcia: You kind of have to do both. And you know, for example, if I talk about "Guernica" by Picasso, you kind of have to say the Spanish Civil War happened. But you don't necessarily have to go into specifically Picasso's long history in Cubism, his blue period, but you kind of have to make nods toward them . But what's really fascinating in a work like-- "Guernica" is a great example, and an episode I haven't done-- is when you pull out an aspect that has an emotional impact on you and for me, it's that, that wailing mother with her hands up and that sort of disjointed head that emotional impact also triggers an idea that, "Oh, well, this actually very much speaks to Picasso's Cubist period, this very much has this sort of the blue period emotional impact that he carried through the early part of his career." So it sort of naturally flows out of that, that you do deal with some of the, the history and the technique aspect. I don't deal deeply with technique most of the time, largely because art technique is still a little bit mysterious to me, but I really do try. You know, art has, if I decided to go in all art history nerd, like I often do with my wife, sadly it would be a six hour podcast.

[00:09:44]Lindsey Dinneen: So then in knowing yourself, you know what you need to limit yourself to. I like it. Yeah. I like it. Okay, cool. Well, okay. So your career is very cool and very unique, and I'm just curious, how do you sort of fall into an-- obviously you didn't fall into it-- but fall into a job like that because, I mean, what, what was your background that enabled you to then become this, this curator of a museum? That's just really interesting.

[00:10:14] Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. Funny, you should ask. I was a floor worker, I basically a docent and tour guide and someone who told you to stop touching objects at the old Computer Museum in Boston. And it was slowly falling apart and getting ready to close. It would eventually be bought out by the Museum of Science. And I grew up in the Bay Area and I was out in Boston at that museum, but they had an affiliate in California. So when I went home for Christmas, one year I decided to visit and they said, "Yeah, we've got this job opening." And I said, "I will apply for this job because Boston is cold." And I ended up getting the job. Literally I fell into it because no one else wanted the job. It was $12.50 an hour. And no one else wanted that in Silicon Valley at that point except for me.

[00:11:05]And yeah, for 20 years that's what I did and what was great is that I was largely in charge of my own research interests. And that was fascinating. When you give the freedom to a curator to go and investigate what truly interests them and what they think is missing in the museum, what you gain is an incredible amount of insight and a lot of extra labor from the person who's actually doing the research. And it turned out that a lot of the stuff that I was doing was not only stuff that we didn't know previously, but we didn't see how it connected to the bigger world. And it was just a great job. 20 years. I got laid off in 2019, sadly. Hashtag #learntofundraise. But the real, the real fascinating thing about, you know, lucking into this gig, like I had my art history background, but really it was the fact that I knew how to give a really good tour, ended up getting me the job and, you know, I held onto it because it's just a thing that I really understood. And I think I really grew up with the museum itself.

[00:12:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cool. How incredible. And I love that you were given that autonomy and freedom to explore the things that interested you and then get to just learn and grow. That's really cool. I think that's awesome. And so what was the most surprising thing maybe that you learned along that journey?

[00:12:36]Christopher John Garcia: So it, it's both surprising-- and then when I think about it, not at all surprising-- I got to go and meet a artist by the name of Harold Cohen. . Initially I knew him, his sort of work from the sixties and very early seventies as an abstract painter, sort of along the lines of if Hawking was working completely... David Hockney, not Hawking. Hawking is the scientist. Hockney was working completely abstract. Very, very great color palette, amazing line, but he got very interested in artificial intelligence and developed a system called Aaron, the AARON Paint System, which he developed for almost 40 years. And I got to spend a couple of days with him.

[00:13:28] And what was so surprising was he was talking about when he got into AI, it wasn't that-- the art community naturally sort of rejected the work because it wasn't clear who was the artist? Was it Harold Cohen or was it AARON, the Paint System that he developed. And it wasn't that 'cause that I understood, but it was that when you program a system to create art, it is naturally going to attempt to create art in the mode of its creator. Because the creator understands art in that way. So all AARON is a set of rules, but when you define a set of rules, you're going to define it with your own biases already installed. And it's fascinating to see that.

[00:14:23] And I managed to also connect with another computer music pioneer, who also does visual arts with his programs, guy by the name of David Cope. And he recognized that. And what he did to avoid that was he made it possible to input external work by, in his case for music mini files, from, you know, Shostakovitch, Scott Joplin, Bach, and so he removed himself from the set of rules. The rules were defined by the input, and it was so interesting that I never thought in a million years that just setting a set of rules into a computer program would actually have that much effect. And then when I thought about it, it was like, "Yeah, of course that's how you would do it." And then I realized, wait, there's a way to do it where it's not actually your rules. It's someone else's. I just love that.

[00:15:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. That is so cool. I didn't even know that those technologies existed. So that's really fascinating to me that that's even a thing. How cool!

[00:15:27] Christopher John Garcia: Well, what's incredible about that is right now, we are in an absolute Renaissance of AI art. And it's scary because it is very, very quickly being monetized. We saw some of the first works done almost. All the major AI art is being done in Europe right now. In particular there's our groups in Amsterdam, in a couple different places in France, England. And what's amazing is that now they're starting to go to auctions and fetching high sums, but this isn't where we're going to see AI art. We're going to see AI art in hotel lobbies, hotel rooms, any place where large-scale art creation is necessary. And right now, almost all that work is outsourced typically to China or small artists who are willing to work for relatively cheap for reproduction. In this case, it's highly possible that AI will be creating all the art we encounter in public corporate spaces, and that's a very big change and will have a very big impact on not only the art market, but the art market that no one thinks about: the commercial art market for commercial properties.

[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Hm. So do you think that that's a good thing or is it not necessarily inherently good or bad? It just is different.

[00:16:45]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah. That's... I go back and forth and it depends on how much I like computer programmers at the moment. I think it is a good thing in that we are developing systems that are able to get art out more quickly. And I think it's a bad thing of course, because it is going to put some artists out of work, but by having the work that can get out more quickly, it is going to drive the art market in general broader. And that's going to allow more artists to actually get work, to get commissions. Now, how, how that drives against one another, it's hard to tell. And new technologies and art are changing everything. And so it's a really, we're on kind of a knife's edge and we could fall either direction. We could either end up with a market that is an, a, an output that is AI driven. We have very little, as of yet, AI generated art that has made it into the museum space. And when you really look at the history of art, it's the stuff that gets into the museum space that ends up being the most significant. We're still seeing a massive influx of artists working today who are being displayed in museums. So I think the human is still going to be the more significant player in what art means and becomes, but I think AI is going to be a major part of what sells and that, you know, who knows which direction that'll go.

[00:18:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting to follow that journey then and see what does end up happening and how does it twist and weave through different avenues and yeah, that's going to be really different. Like, I'm, I'm just wrapping my head around it right now, thinking about it, because again, I didn't know these technologies existed, so I'm like, huh? Okay. So, you know, you mentioned that you started taking that painting. What kind of artwork do you tend to lean towards with your own? Is it more abstract? Is it more realistic? What do you like?

[00:19:05] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, it's a hundred percent abstract just because I don't have the skills to actually do representational. But one of the things on my Instagram is that I'll post an image where it's literally, I squoze three tubes of paint onto a piece of paper. I covered it with a little glue and I put another piece of paper on top of it and I scan it later, usually after it dries, but when it doesn't dry, my wife gets mad. And people will start to recognize that, "Oh, that's obviously a picture of X, Y, and Z." And one of the other things I do on the side is I publish zines and I had squished a whole bunch of acrylic paint that I just tossed onto a piece of paper and I peeled it off, but I had let it dry a little bit before I squished it. So it made this sort of feathery looking look and it looks exactly like the cryptid known as Moth Man.

[00:19:56] And at that point I realized that something there's something in the sort of the chance operations space, that where even if you're not actively trying to create representational image, representational image will come forth. And so that picture of Moth Man, as I call it now, is a picture of Moth Man, even though I wasn't painting Moth Man. I wasn't painting anything. I was just putting paint on paper and that really, for me, raises some interesting questions as well. If I didn't mean to paint Moth Man, did I paint Moth Man? And the answer for me to that is, of course I'm painted Moth Man. What, are you crazy? Although I could get into the whole thing of that. Maybe Moth Man is some sort of entity that was working through me to make sure I painted a painting of him. But that might be a bridge too far, even for me.

[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Of course. Well, that's cool. Oh my goodness. Okay. And so is that something that you anticipate you'll continue doing even sort of after things hopefully return to normal?

[00:21:00]Christopher John Garcia: Yeah, I think what's really fascinating is that once I realized I loved the act of painting, I realized even more that I loved the material of painting. And I, I think painting can be a process that is laborious, that is tedious, that is mind numbing. It can also be one that is brief, that is freeing, that is inexact. And for me, it's definitely the latter, but the things that I love about it is just looking at how things react with one another. Like if I put oils and acrylics and inks on the same page and put a little Elmer's glue on top of it, and then put another page on top of it, the way it feels under the hand. Like that's a sensation that I can't think of repeating. And it's one that doesn't take long. It's just a couple of minutes even. And there's that sensation that's an irreplaceable thing. It's the aspect of the artists that I don't know if I ever really understood until I started painting myself, is that there are sensations to this that don't exist many other places. That the actual act of making marks on paper, on a canvas, whatever has a feeling. And when you find a feeling that is pleasurable or relieving or funky, you know, you're going to want to keep going back to that. So I don't see myself stopping painting. Probably painting a little less, but definitely it's something I'll keep doing that. And I have an Instagram to fill, so yes.

[00:22:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, excellent. Well, I'm just curious. I know you've gotten to meet some pretty cool artists yourself-- and obviously your experiences as a curator and as a podcaster have probably lent themselves to some really memorable moments-- but I wonder if there's anything that kind of really stands out to you as an encounter with art that was like just something to remember to kind of file back there and return to every once in awhile.

[00:23:17]Christopher John Garcia: Oh yeah. Bunch. I mean my first time I ever met an artist artist-- well, the first time I ever encountered an artist, this I should actually point out-- was Andy Warhol. And I didn't get to meet him, but I sat right behind him at Madison Square Garden at a WWF wrestling show.

[00:23:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:23:39] Christopher John Garcia: And he was always in the front row and always taking pictures with his little camera. But little seven year old me, I couldn't talk to them because even I knew who he was and I was seven, but I got to know Robert Rauschenberg a little bit because he would visit our college and he was a fascinating human in many ways. But what I learned when I went to a big exhibit of his at SF MOMA was that his interests were so broad because he was so interesting and wanted to make the world as interested in things as he was. And it was like one of the best things. Again, this is something that people may not realize, every pop artist loves wrestling. I do not know why this is true, but everyone I've met-- Rauschenberg, Warhol, didn't meet him, but still-- Lichtenstein, Marisol, all of them love wrestling. And what Robert Rauschenberg said that one time when we were-- 'cause you'd stopped by class, then a lot of us would go out drinking afterwards-- he said "You know, you have to be careful how you are positioning your art, whether or not it is referencing the zeitgeists or referencing some niche topics that only two people in the gallery will get." And it's, you know, if you do a painting of whole Cogan, everyone will get it. It's a zeitgeist. But if you're talking about Pak Song and Dusty Rhodes, you're talking about niche.

[00:25:09] And at that point, one, this was obviously made for me, even though he didn't know it. But two, he was really saying something that I bought into because you know, oh, this idea that there is a universality, but there's also a place for niche, which I love. But he was a really fun guy. I didn't see him after probably '97, but really had a good time with him. And I was very lucky. Another guy who's known more for music, but is actually a wonderful visual artist, is Mark Mothersbaugh of Divo. And I got to interview him, do an oral history with him. He has a fascinating eye for the world. And every day he writes one postcard size image he creates and he has thousands of them and they're beautiful. But then he was also doing this a very simple thing where he took classic, often Victorian, sometimes early 20th century photographs and uses Photoshop to place a mirror image of it. So it gives you that sort of awkward exactly symmetrical look.

[00:26:14] But yeah, those have been two of my favorite. I've been lucky that I've gotten to meet a lot of really fun artists through the museum. You know, there were a lot of folks who didn't feel like early computer was being talked about enough and we're very happy to have anyone who would be interested in this stuff. But always, you know, artists like everyone, there are good ones who are wanting to talk to you all day long. And there are others who don't. You sort of learned which is which.

[00:26:44]Lindsey Dinneen: For sure, for sure. Well, yeah. And, you know, just, it's so funny 'cause obviously everyone has different personalities and I would second that some artists are a little more approachable than others, but you know, that is okay. Well, I'm sure that some of our listeners are going to be super interested in your work, both as a podcaster and as a painter. And I'm wondering if there are ways for us to, of course, A) listen to your podcast and then B) check out some of your artwork.

[00:27:14] Christopher John Garcia: Oh, there absolutely are. I have my podcast on the internet, just look for "Three-Minute Modernist" and you will find it all over the place. And then you can find my artwork and pictures of my kids, also things I cook, on Instagram at Johnny Eponymous, J O H N N Y E P O N Y MOU S. I'm also the same thing on Twitter, the same thing on Facebook, the same thing on pretty much everything. Since Friendster, I've been Johnny Eponymous. But yeah, and I'm, yeah, I'm all over the place. It's hard to miss me.

[00:27:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, first of all, thank you just so much again for being here and sharing your stories. And I'm just so fascinated learning about how technology and art intersect, and that's just so cool that you shared that very unique perspective. So I definitely appreciate that. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:28:10]Christopher John Garcia: Whew...

[00:28:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I know.

[00:28:11] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.

[00:28:12] Lindsey Dinneen: It's pressure.

[00:28:12] Christopher John Garcia: I'm ready.

[00:28:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:20]Christopher John Garcia: Art is that thing you do that is mostly useless, but ultimately important.

[00:28:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Care to elaborate, or are we just going to leave that be?

[00:28:32]Christopher John Garcia: I'll elaborate slightly. It is the shape of the tool, not the use of the tool, I think is the way I, I wrote it in a paper once when I was trying to be smart. It's really about something that brings you an emotional experience of some sort that isn't just because of what it does, but what it is. And so, you know, we have paintings around the house 'cause my wife's mother's a actual painter who paints actual paintings. And every time I see one of them, it makes me feel hungry and it's because there's all sorts of food in it. But, you know, I consider that to be art because it draws an emotion out of me.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure, sure. Perfect. Okay.

[00:29:18] Christopher John Garcia: It's also a good painting of food.

[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, there you go. Perfect. Oh yeah. Well, that's a, that's a very unique answer and I like it. Okay. So, secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:32]Christopher John Garcia: To make art. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to, I think. Wanting an artist to be a philosopher, a spokesman, any of that? Really not as important as the fact that they just create the work.

[00:29:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. And then finally, I'll define my terms a little bit in this last question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether it's program notes or the inspiration or a title. Just something to give the viewer an idea of what went into the creation. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context and therefore leaves it entirely up to the viewer to interpret it at will.

[00:30:25]Christopher John Garcia: I'm going to throw you a curve ball and say there is no such thing as an inclusive artist.

[00:30:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Ooh. Tell me more.

[00:30:33]Christopher John Garcia: Everything an artist does is meant to be interpreted, is meant to be placed into a context. So that would be now exclusive. Nevermind. But yeah, they, every purpose choice you make is giving you more of a clue. If an artist says, "This is not titled," it doesn't mean he is just-- I don't care what you call it-- it's, he's making a choice. He doesn't want to give you the direction, but there is a direction and, you know, I've, I always think of-- I think it was Barnett Newman who once said I paint a zip. I put a line down a canvas. To me, that's a line. To someone else that could be a streetlight. And we're both right.

[00:31:25]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:31:26] Christopher John Garcia: And I think that, you know, I think everything an artist does has the reason that it's done to bring about some thought, even if that thing that they do isn't giving you any background, but is giving you the lack of background. That seems strange, but in my brain it works.

[00:31:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I really, that is the most unique answer I've received for that question. So I like that. That is a really interesting point. So thank you for sharing that perspective because I really that's going to make me think about that even more. So thank you for that.

[00:32:05]Christopher John Garcia: I do what I can.

[00:32:06] Lindsey Dinneen: I know. I appreciate it. Well, thank you just so very much for being here today, Chris, I really appreciate your time and you sharing your background and what you're up to. And I'm so excited about your podcast. And I encourage all of our listeners to also check out Chris's podcast and subscribe and all that good stuff, because obviously he brings a cool, unique perspective and it's three minutes. So, like the perfect way to just start your day. So thank you again, Chris. And I just want to commend you for everything that you're doing and sharing art with the world. I really think that that's important and kudos to you.

[00:32:49]Christopher John Garcia: Well, thank you much. It's been so much fun.

[00:32:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yeah. Well, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:33:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Donna Kay Yarborough! Donna Kay is a performer who has worked extensively in improv, theater, and comedy sports, as well as writing, producing, and performing her own one-woman shows. She talks about her artistic journey and her excitement about getting back to live shows, as well as about her upcoming production, "Rosegold." (Fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is the show image for "Rosegold.")

Get in touch with Donna Kay Yarborough: www.donnakayspeaks.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 51 - Donna Yarborough

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello. And welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am excited to have as my guest today, Donna Kay Yarborough. She is a performer and I cannot wait to dive into all that that means because I know she works in a lot of different genres and a lot of different ways. And so thank you so much for being here today.

[00:00:55] Donna Kay Yarborough: Thank you for having me and my morning voice. I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. So we are recording on an early Monday morning. And so here we are.

[00:01:06]Donna Kay Yarborough: Definitely.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I'd love to hear more about your background and maybe how you got started in art, and then maybe a little bit of what you're doing now, if you don't mind.

[00:01:18] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, it's one of those that my history is a long, long string of trying to put off the fact that I am an artist. I started, I mean, I was always the talker since I was a little kid. I would always get the narration rolls and stuff like that. And then in middle school and high school is when I first discovered theater and I've really discovered a proclivity to that. And my parents were always, "Well, this is a lovely phase you're going to, but when are you going to become a teacher? Because that's what you're good at." And I never left the theater phase and the more I fought it, the more I got dragged back into it. So I have just very many different angles that has brought me to the current place that I am right now that I guess is best described as an independent performance artist though. It's not performance art. It's, it's ,it's all manner of whatnot. There's a specific term: whatnot. I do whatnot.

[00:02:22] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. And what does the whatnot look like these days?

[00:02:27]Donna Kay Yarborough: Currently, I've been doing a lot of Fringe Theater Festivals. So the most current project, which I'll be coming to Kansas City with, is a solo horror show called "Rosegold." It's a 45 minutes storytelling experience. We'll put it that way. And so that's what all my years have led up to.

[00:02:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So as far as, so this is a one woman show, I'm imagining, and it's storytelling about various-- are these like real- life horror stories or are these like fictional stories or how does that whole thing work?

[00:03:06]Donna Kay Yarborough: This, this one in particular is fiction, but I will say that it is honestly quite informed by real life. We'll put it that way.

[00:03:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. And so what got you interested in, in that particular genre or what kind of sparked this show?

[00:03:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: I have always loved horror since I was a little kid, like when I was in third grade, my favorite authors were Edgar Allan Poe, Stephen King and Ray Bradbury. So it is not unfamiliar to me to be just absorbed in the horror genre, but throughout the ages, I've always been seen as a comedian, whether I wanted to be or not, I have always been identified as such. So this has been a pleasant surprise for this show to fall out of my head and to find that it is being effective in giving people the chilly willies or whatever you want to say. Chilly willy sounds like I'm sticking the finger in people's ears, but you know what I mean?

[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Okay. All right. So you said, you know, regardless of whether you particularly wanted to be, or not, you sort of ended up in more of a humorous role. Is that something that you kind of pursued or is that just something that fell into your lab?

[00:04:31] Donna Kay Yarborough: I would say six of one, half a dozen of the other. Because I've always been a smart ass and I didn't realize how integral part of my personality that was until I got older, but I went to school for theater and I did okay. But at that time I started doing improv. I got involved with comedy sports. I can't remember if Kansas City has a comedy sports team or not, or used to, but I, they used to, as a matter of fact, cause that was the only time I've been to Kansas City was for a comedy sports tournament. Yeah. And I got involved with that in 1995, and I've still been doing that all along. And then the improv led me into interactive theater, which I did pretty intensely for 10 years at a Renaissance Festival in upstate New York. And then, since then it's been sort of an adventure finding wherever I am. So it's been quite a few years that I've been doing music and comedy and independent theater.

[00:05:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. So I'm sure that there is more of a journey, cause you mentioned, you know, kind of early childhood starting to get interested in all of the different art aspects. And like you said, you did narration, you were always sort of that kind of role. So I'm curious, how did you get from there as sort of, you know, obviously more of a side hobby and pursuit or extracurricular to now you're doing this. Is this a full-time gig or how did it kind of evolve from this is my side hobby to, this is kind of what I'm pursuing?

[00:06:06] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think that it was more of, this has always been what I've been pursuing, but in the name of being reasonable, I have shoved it to the side for other things. Cause you know, in high school I was one of those kids. I was in band, choir and theater and at for whatever reason, theater is the one that I decided to follow. And again, as I've mentioned, I just got stuck in it. By the way, I keep resisting my temptation to say theater because I am from Texas and it took me a while to unlearn "I'm in theater." But that's what happened. I went to university for it and in Texas as well, and I kept trying to juggle the jobs and the theater. And then in my mid- twenties, I had the joys of having a very intense bout of cancer. I had a Hodgkin's disease that went undiagnosed for a while and I nearly died from a giant tumor in my lung. And it was at that point that I think I'm more consciously made a decision that I'm not here to mess around, going to focus on whatever this is, this gift that I have now. So ever since then, granted, it's been you know, over 20 years since the cancer and the stem cell transplant, but I've become more and more adept and allowed, I will say, of focusing on aspects of my performance in art full time.

[00:07:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. That's-- I mean, goodness, kudos to you for overcoming that. And also of course, just, you know, using that as an opportunity to recognize that life isn't a dress rehearsal, I guess, as cliche as that is, and, and, you know, to embrace the here and the now. And that's really cool.

[00:08:05] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah. Yeah, no, I've been very fortunate compared to others because not everybody has a positive outcome from the cancer like I did, but I also, in my show-- previous to the horror show I'm doing now-- I created a show about my work as a standardized patient, which is basically a medical actor. I'm the person that people learn how to interact with patients . So it's, that's part of my creative work as well. And I love it, but because of my background with the healthcare system, I worked into that humorous show, a very strong call for universal healthcare in this country. And, when I went to Canada with the show, they were like, "Well, we know healthcare is bad in the United States," but a lot of them didn't understand to what degree it is leaving people in a wake of destruction in this country. So I was able to use that personal experience to inform that piece and make it a conversation starter and informational for people.

[00:09:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's really cool. So does your work that you write and whatever, does that normally have sort of a, an underlying call to action or does it depend on the work itself?

[00:09:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: I have discovered that I do tend to put in a call to action. It's just how I'm built. I figure if I'm going to make this piece of entertainment, I should bring a bit of awareness and discussion into it. So with previous acts I've done, I used to be part of a comedy duo and my former show partner, Sadie Bowman, who's doing fantastic work touring with doing Matheatre, the name of their group, they're doing informative theater for schools, STEM based. She and I would create work that even though it was comedy, it definitely had sort of a feminist awareness angle to it. And since then, I've just always thought that if I'm going to create this thing, let's, let's make it deeper than just being frivolous. Entertainment's fine. I have no problem with something being created just for the sake of entertaining. But if you can lace it with a little bit of delicious awareness, you might as well use that opportunity.

[00:10:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So what does your creative writing process look like? Like do you have the inspiration first and then just dive right into the writing process? Or how does that work for you?

[00:10:42]Donna Kay Yarborough: It is one that has changed over the years and what it used to be-- and granted, now this part of me, aside from the cancer, a lot of this that has influenced me lately has been sort of coming to terms with my depression and my family inheritance of mental illness --that in the early days, I used to be able to just sit down and go, "I want to write this." And it would all just fall right out of my face, just "waha" there onto the page without even thinking twice. And then in the past decade or so, that had become more and more difficult where I would set a goal and trying to get it out of me was just-- I was wrestling with demons that everything was trying to hold me in place and keep me from moving forward. So I was very dependent on other people to help me with the material, or I would just throw it to the realm of improv. I deliberately make it improv because one of the joys of being a trained improviser is yes, you are comfortable making up stuff on the fly, but the downside is, you have a tendency to go, "Oh, I'll just make that up. I'll just figure out something when that happens." So for the past few years, it's been very much like that. And then in the past year, trying to understand my brain again, the new version of my brain, I think I've returned back to the, I can sit down and address something and it'll come to me.

[00:12:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And so what are you most excited about with this new production that you're working on? Are you going to be producing it for a bunch of different Fringe Festivals or what's, what's your goal with it?

[00:12:36] Donna Kay Yarborough: That is my hope. I'm in several this year, virtually, which as terrible as the virtual landscape and the pandemic has been for artists overall, I do love that as far as Fringe Festivals are concerned, the virtual Fringe Festival. The festival has made it much more affordable for people like me who don't necessarily have a trust fund and a stock pile of cash. So I've been able to do this virtually-- which the show when it started was meant to be in person-- and then with the pandemic, I had an opportunity to do it in September and it perfectly morphed for the virtual presentation for Zoom presentation, but I will be later this year in a festival that is yet to be disclosed. I can't officially say which one yet, but I will be doing it in person. And I am very excited about that form of it as well.

[00:13:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so exciting. I cannot wait to get back to in person performing because there's just nothing quite like it.

[00:13:47] Donna Kay Yarborough: It's true. I like the virtual, but the energy-- it's like learning in a classroom, the collective energy of people being there together in a point of focus in unity is definitely one of the most important aspects of live performance, in my opinion.

[00:14:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That sharing of energy, even within the audience itself, just sitting next to other people who are as excited as you are to be there is, is cool too. So, for sure.

[00:14:17] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, it definitely, it definitely reminds us that we are a community.

[00:14:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. The camaraderie sort of, of the arts is, is really special, so... Very cool. Okay! So then obviously you've got, you know, your work cut out for you this year. Do you have other exciting things in the works as well for the future?

[00:14:39] Donna Kay Yarborough: For the future, well as things open up, I'm looking forward to getting back into improv. So that's something that's been sitting on the back burner and I have missed horribly. I do enjoy, and the, the form that I do with comedy sports-- another shout out for comedy sports-- is that it is a format that is engendered to be friendly for all ages. I absolutely adore having an opportunity to do all ages shows that are very, very inclusive. So I'm looking forward to getting back to that. That'll be nice. And I'm also just looking forward to, to figuring out if maybe this is my new thing is to create more horror.

[00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. And then, so I'm curious if, you know, if there's somebody out there who's kind of interested in doing what you do. What kinds of advice would you have for somebody who might just be thinking of doing something like that or taking that leap of faith to get started? What would you say to somebody like that?

[00:15:42] Donna Kay Yarborough: I would say, first of all, is run with your idea. If you have an idea, whether it be, "I would like to do something like this,: or "I have an idea of this that might do this," let that fall out of your head in whatever form it's going to be in. And then specifically for these independent shows, I did not come into awareness of the Fringe Festival world until I was into my forties. So I'm still, I've been doing this for a few years, but compared to other people, I'm still rather new at that scene. And I will say my first Fringe Festival that I went to I found very inspiring because I had grown weary of the concept of live theater. It seemed to be very much, or even over the past few years, completely respecting the level of skill that is needed for live theater in smaller arenas. It felt like it had gotten pretty hackneyed and they had to focus on what is going to be the money builder, as opposed to what is exciting and engaging. And going to a Fringe Theater Festival made me realize that there were so many more options for what is considered live performance and live theater. So I would encourage anybody that is anywhere close to a Fringe Festival to go to that and just see how many options there are out there and what each different flavor of performance does for people. I found that very, very inspiring.

[00:17:19]And then I would say, find the middle ground in that. Figure out if you can start with something formed like that, use that inspiration of structure to create something on your own. The truth is that as a creative, you're going to make a lot of little babies that may never get to go out into the world and see the light of day. So you just got to keep making those creative babies. You've got all these little babies, and some of these babies are going to be dear to you, and they may not ever get to walk out of the nest, but you've got to allow your heart to keep making these little nuggets of hope.

[00:17:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Yes. And I second your opinion on the Fringe Festivals. Yes, if you are an aspiring artist or even somebody who wants something just a little bit different, Fringe Festivals are such a great way to get started or to reach a new audience or anything like that, because they are an affordable way to to get going or again, to reach a different audience. So, yeah, I absolutely second that advice.

[00:18:26] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yeah, and I like that many of them are developed specifically to give opportunities. Now you might go to a festival and not everything you see is going to be quote unquote "good." There's going to be some stuff where you leave just going, "Ooh, bless their heart." But that's part of the beauty of it, is that it allows for people that have never done it before to test it out and see if they come up with something that may lightning struck and is magic. But then it gives people that are established an opportunity to do something in their own terms and genuinely, maybe make some money from it because improv festivals, standup comedy festivals-- yeah. You don't ever make any money. That is not how you will ever, ever get into building a foundation for you. But many of the folks I know that do Fringe Festivals, a lot of them do it full time. They tour year round, and it is not an easy existence, but it is how they define their existence.

[00:19:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think to that point, we've sort of danced around it a little bit, but the, the great thing about Fringe Festivals is that they are uncensored. So, so it's up to the artists to bring what they will, which is lovely because it gives you a lot of artistic freedom to explore. Whereas some other festivals are looking for very specific types of art or specific topics or, or what have you. So yeah, it's, it's a special opportunity. I'll put it that way.

[00:20:04] Donna Kay Yarborough: I agree. I wish I had discovered it many years earlier. I will say that since I've found the Renaissance Festival circuit before this, there is a lot of camaraderie and spirit that overlaps with the two. Some of the folks that I know from the Fringe Festival circuit, I actually met doing Renaissance Festivals, because it's a very similar feeling of, people get together in different locations. You have locals creating their version of art. You have non-locals that tour across the country, doing these bite-sized shows. And it's, it's a very similar love of performance with just a different patina on top of it.

[00:20:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Yes. And so for people who want to either follow your work and, or specifically are interested in your upcoming show, is there a way for us to connect with you? To make sure we stay on top of that?

[00:21:07] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yes. I have a website that is Donna Kay Speaks. So D O N N A K A Y S P E A K S. That's donnakayspeaks.com. And on that, I have links to my social media and I try to keep up on a blog what's going through my head and where I'm going to be next. And I will also be very blatantly placing where this current show of mine, "Rosegold," is going to be. Which again, I am very excited about to share the world with.

[00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And what's so great too about the fact that these Fringe Festivals are virtual, is that you can literally be anywhere in the country and still follow, you know, what, what you're doing and make sure that you see these, these cool productions online. So that is the, I have to say that that is kind of the magic of this format, I think.

[00:22:07] Donna Kay Yarborough: It's true. I made my debut in the UK with having never been there. That's what I did a festival in January that was an open call out of Edinburgh. And that's kind of exciting. Maybe someday I'll physically get there as well.

[00:22:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. So cool. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing all about your art and sort of how you got into all these different avenues and also your advice. I really appreciate it. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:22:42] Donna Kay Yarborough: Yes.

[00:22:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:22:50]Donna Kay Yarborough: I think the best definition I have for it is connection. Like I mentioned earlier, that moment of unity is what makes live performance so much fun. I think any sort of art you've thrived for that point that the person who creates, meets with the person who observes and they share an awareness of some sort of information or perspective. You'll see a lot of people that say, "I do my art for my sake and I don't care what other people think." And quite honestly, I feel like that's a very selfish approach to art. You can be true to yourself and still honor the audience at the same time, because it's a symbiotic relationship. You are not an artist in a vacuum. We all exist because we are in the presence of each other.

[00:23:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. I absolutely love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:23:58]Donna Kay Yarborough: There are many different roles that people have depending on their abilities and what their focus is. So like I mentioned earlier, some people just want to bring joy into the world. And I think that is lovely. Joy is defined on many different levels and that can be a pure focus in me. I I flavor joy on top of a baseline of perspective. I am ever the educator, even though I am not officially teaching in a classroom, my goal is to always teach in some manner or another. So making this tasty nugget of learning I think is how I function. And a lot of people out there function, there's other things you can do. Sometimes you just want to make a pretty thing, or sometimes you just want to decorate. And that again is very, very valuable in this world, but mine is teaching.

[00:25:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's the inspiration that went into the process of creating it, or program notes or a title or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.

[00:25:35] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think it's entirely dependent on the project, because if you are creating a piece that you want folks to know everything that led up to this point, because that is part of the awareness in presentation, by all means, bring people into your process. People are necessary for your process. So let them have as much access to yourself as you were comfortable to them. Having that being said, some shows you don't want spoilers. You want it to hit them all at once and then after they experience it, they can begin to deconstruct and learn about all that went into it. Or the goal of it is to just put it forward and let whatever it means for the viewer, that is what it means. There is no boxing. There is no qualifying. It just exists for the people to have as it is. So I think honestly, there's no hard answer for that. It could be any and all.

[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate your time. And of course, I'm so excited for your upcoming performances and congrats on getting to do some live, you know, later this year as well. So it's just exciting to be able to watch your journey. So thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for being here today. I really do appreciate it.

[00:27:12] Donna Kay Yarborough: Thank you very much for having me. And I'm looking so forward to being in Kansas City virtually.

[00:27:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:27:32] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much! And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Gloria Grace Rand! Gloria is a speaker, author, podcast host, and lover of music and art. She shares the stories about the inspiration from her sister that helped her write her book about love, along with her journey from SEO copywriter to podcaster and beyond. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Gloria's book, "Live. Love. Engage.")

Get in touch with Gloria Grace Rand: www.gloriarand.com | www.liveloveengagebook.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 50 - Gloria Grace Rand

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Gloria Grace Rand. She is an author, speaker, and podcast host, and has a really rich background. And I'm just so excited to hear more about what she's doing now and how she got her start and all of those good things. So thank you so much for being here today, Gloria. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Gloria Grace Rand: Oh, thank you so much, Lindsey. I am so excited to delve into this today. I'm really, I'm really looking forward to our discussion.

[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Well, it's so much fun to talk about art if you're an art lover. So, I would love if you would just mind sharing a little bit about your background and maybe sort of how you got into the various art forms that you do and yeah, maybe what you're up to now, too.

[00:01:21]Gloria Grace Rand: I would love to, and yeah, the arts have always been a part of my life. I mean, starting from, let's see, five years old when I started taking dance lessons. So I did tap, ballet, and jazz for, for years. And, in fact, the ballet part even as an adult. So, because I loved it so much-- even though that's not what I did professionally-- I wish I could have, but I was never quite, did not exactly have that dancer's body-- but it's so much fun to do. And the other part that has been a big part of my life has been music. I was in the band in school. Actually, the first instrument I ever learned how to play was the organ. We had a Hammond organ in our house growing up and my dad played it and I learned how to play, and then learned how to play the guitar. And then in school it was, I started out playing flute in junior high, and then switched to saxophone in high school because we had too many flute players. So I, I enjoyed that tremendously.

[00:02:17] And, and the other part of myself, I guess, that has been a big part has been writing. As you mentioned, I am an author. I recently published my first book. But writing has always been a part of what I've been doing. I mean, I was a pen pal when I was a kid, and then I wound up actually majoring in mass communications in college, and got involved in television. I was involved in television production. I worked for a long time for the Nightly Business Report when it was on public television and I started off my first job with them was what was called a Character Generator Operator. And so I was typing up the words that would be go onto the screen and as well as helping making some of the graphics that we would use for the program. And then I eventually became a writer for the show and, and a producer.

[00:03:09] And so I did that for a long time, loved working in television, and then we were living in Miami at the time. I moved up to Orlando and I had to find something else to do. And I wound up investing in a course to do SEO copywriting. So I was writing, learn how to write content for websites and, and to help them get found, right? Figure out the right keywords that'll help you get found in Google, and then incorporate them in a way that actually makes sense at a website to be able to get people to take action and buy someone's products and services. And I've been doing that for the last 10 plus years and have really enjoyed that as well. And at the same time, over the last few years, I've been on a spiritual journey that happened when my sister was diagnosed with cancer and it culminated in the writing of this book. I've been doing a podcast and it's just like, all of it has just been this really cool journey and has just involved me finding ways to be out there, you know, just being, expressing myself. I actually just created a new tagline for my business. I call it "Messages from the Heart" because that's pretty much what I'm doing through a lot of different modalities. And that's a lot of fun. And we'll probably talk about some more of that in a little bit, but that's, that's the not- really- short version, but, but a little version about where I am right now.

[00:04:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Of course I'd love to delve more into all of the different things, but so I'm curious, are you still participating in music now? Are you still actively playing any of those instruments or anything like that?

[00:04:52]Gloria Grace Rand: It's funny you should mention that. And I should mention the other part is singing has also been a big part of my life as well, but last year during, during the pandemic-- and I'm not even really sure what, what was it that prompted it-- but I pulled my guitar out of my closet, which I haven't touched in about 10 years and and realized it was like, I missed music. I hadn't been doing anything with it. And so I got the guitar out and I started playing it again. And that was a lot of fun. And I also started-- which I haven't done since let's see probably seven years old-- it was the last time I actually wrote a couple of songs, which just sort of blew my mind that that this was coming to me and as this new way of being creative. And it was exciting, and I also started playing the organ again. I'd kind of played it off and on, but not consistently, but I realized that it's like, I should do this because it brings me joy.

[00:05:52] And I think that that was mostly it. In fact that that is why I started playing the guitar again. 'Cause I had, I was working with a coach and she's like, "Well, what, what brings you joy?" And I'm like, "Well, music." And that's like, yeah, wait a minute. I've got a guitar. I need to start playing music again. 'Cause you know, last year was such a weird year and it's still a bit continuing that way. And, it's so important to do the things that you love to do. And so, yeah, I started doing that and it was great. And, and like I mentioned, singing has been something that I've always enjoyed doing as well. I used to be in church choirs for, for a long time and really enjoyed doing that. And so I've, so again, this like writing songs is kind of getting back into me being able to sing again, which has been really a lot of fun. My favorite part about Girl Scout camp was singing around the campfire just to give you an indication of me and music.

[00:06:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, of course. That's fantastic. So I'm curious, do you own an organ or do you have to go somewhere to play one?

[00:06:56]Gloria Grace Rand: No, I actually do have-- it, it's really old now. It was a secondhand one that I bought from a coworker back when I was working at the Nightly Business Report. So this, this, this instrument is, oh my gosh, it must be 30 years old now for sure. The pedals don't work that great, but it still works. I bought a keyboard once before I got this organ and, you know, a nice electronic keyboard, but it just wasn't the same, especially because those keyboards are typically-- you play, it's more like a piano. And I grew up with two keyboards, you know, so it's like the upper register of the lower register and pedals. And I just prefer playing that way. So when a coworker was moving and she was offering this organ for sale, I'm like, "I'll take it, I'll buy it." And just to be able to have that experience again, sitting down on a badge and just playing that way. ' Cause I grew up playing chords with my left hand, as opposed to that. I can play the intricate left-hand like you would do on a piano, but I don't know, chords are easier for me. I like it better.

[00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, I'm so impressed with musicians. Of course, that is already just so much work and dedication that you put into it, but I feel like organ is just another level of coordination that I just-- I don't know how you do all the different things and, and it sounds so good. Like how, how, how do you learn to layer the use of your foot, and then you have both registers and all that stuff. Like, that's just amazing to me.

[00:08:32] Gloria Grace Rand: I, I don't know, but I guess it helped that I started young. I think I was seven years old and I started taking lessons to do it. And it just always seemed natural to me. Whereas like playing the piano, I can't understand how people play the piano because that's just, I'm in awe of people who can play the piano because especially with using the left hand and just making this intricate music, I'm like, well, you're just like, so, so I can relate in that way to how you feel because I, the organ to me is easier and fun. Whereas the piano seems much more challenging.

[00:09:07]Lindsey Dinneen: What is the hardest instrument that you've learned how to play, do you think?

[00:09:11]Gloria Grace Rand: Actually, the flute. The flute was my nemesis because our band director used to say "needs work on her embouchure. And to be able to get your, your mouth just right to be able to get that clear tone. I was okay. But I found the saxophone much easier to play. It was something about the reed instead was easier and I was much better playing the saxophone than I was with the flute. So yeah. Although I will say, the guitar I'm still not great at doing, like, super sophisticated chords, because if it is hard to press in and to get your fingers, especially like, I don't have the biggest hands I think. And maybe that's part of it. So it's hard to be able to necessarily like press all of those strings down, especially like your pinky finger to be able to get that coordinated and, and with enough strength to press down. But, you know, I can do C, G D7, D chords, those basic chords. I can play a lot of good John Denver songs. So let's put it that way.

[00:10:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. I love it. That's hilarious. Well, that's really cool. I'm glad that you were able to pick it back up and that it does still bring you joy. I think that's, that's so special. It is so important to find those things and to engage in them because it is a crazy world and we all need those outlets. And so, yeah, I'm so glad to hear that you're still doing it. That's, that's wonderful. Well, and obviously you've also had quite the illustrious career as a writer and you know, now starting off by writing for other people and now obviously, you know, writing your own book and such, but, so I'm curious how that journey kind of evolved for you. I mean, was it, was it something that you just sort of naturally kind of fell into? Was it challenging at the beginning learning like each different type of writing? 'Cause you've done several different styles, it sounds like.

[00:11:06] Gloria Grace Rand: So yeah, absolutely. It has been interesting and when I, like I said, when I was a kid, I loved writing in school. You know, English was like one of my favorite subjects. And I, and I enjoy writing even, I don't know, maybe writing stories or things. But when I switched my major, 'cause I was originally majoring in business and doing very badly. So eventually I switched to mass communications and getting into learning how to write business news was, I think what was advantageous for me was that I worked my way up in, in the organization so that, like I said, I started off more of the graphic side of it. And then eventually my next job, I became the Associate Producer for Stocks. So I was working with one of the anchors of the program. His name is Paul Kangas and he would, he would talk about the stock market. That was his forte talking about, you know, what happened on the New York Stock Exchange and the American Stock Exchange.

[00:12:04] And so I, I would gather, figure out what were the best, biggest, bigger losers and gainers of that day. And, and just being around the other people, I would start picking up, even though I'd had, you know, I studied some journalism in, in school. It really helped being sort of on the job and getting that on -the -job training of learning from the other writers that were there, and the other producers and it, it's all about being able to be very concise and get your message across quickly because a lot of the stories would be like 30 second stories or that you would have to write. And, and it was great 'cause they, they allowed me to, to start off with writing small parts of the show there. We would do like a local segment for Florida stocks. And so I started writing some of those stories and, and then eventually got to write for the program itself. So it was great being able to have training and, and have people encouraging me along the way in order to do that.

[00:13:08] And then it was interesting. Before I started my copywriting career, I was actually doing a lot of part-time volunteer work for my kids' schools. I started writing press releases for them, and I was working on their newsletter, the school newsletter and writing articles for that. And when I started doing the copywriting was like, oh, the stuff I was doing for the school was actually the same type of writing I could actually get paid for that. It didn't even, didn't even dawn on me at the time, but that was a career. I was just trying to help out, you know, and I, I'd worked for a TV station, so it was like, sure, I can, I can do this stuff too. I can figure out how to write a press release and send it to our local newspaper and things like that. So it's just been this, this way of evolving that then when I started learning how to do copywriting, it wasn't that far removed from what I was already doing, because the same principles hold. You've got to grab somebody's attention really quickly, get to, get to the point on a website, just like you would do writing for someone who's listening you know, watching a television show.

[00:14:17]So it's been interesting how everything is sort of built on it. I guess, you know, each thing that I did, I sort of picked up a new skill and was able to keep evolving from it. And, and just being able to, in doing my business, I started a blog. So I started writing a lot of articles for that. And I think that also then helped in being able to really start writing a longer form and to actually write a book. Although that, that book process took me a lot longer than I thought. And I, as I said, I'm very spiritually minded and I got a lot of help in writing this book because I do not take all the credit for it because it was all, I was like asking for inspiration a lot and to be able to get it, in fact, even the idea for the book itself came during a meditation one morning. And this voice in my head said, "You should write a book about love." And I'm like, "I do marketing. What, where is this coming from? This makes no sense to me." But as is often the case, the reason I had to write a book about love was because I had to learn I love myself, and that's what I was able to do in the process of writing that book. So it was, wow. Yeah, it was not the easiest process, but one that was definitely very worthwhile and I'm glad, glad I got through it. It's very nice to be able to actually have the book in my hands. Now it was such a dream for so long and to be able to like, wow, it's really there.

[00:15:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, I can only imagine how thrilling it is when you're just, you're like, finally I have this like actual physical copy of this labor of love that I've been working on forever. That's, that's a good moment. Well, you mentioned, you know, having the inspiration sort of coming from, or at least part of the inspiration coming from, you know, your sister's battle with cancer. Do you mind sharing more about sort of how that impacted your work?

[00:16:18] Gloria Grace Rand: Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was a big part of it. Yeah. And in fact, the idea for the book came yeah, two months before she transitioned. It was the end of 2016. And like I said, I know now it was, it was the reason was because I needed to, to learn that. She was my older sister. She was 10 years older than me and lived out in Arizona. I live in Florida, so I was going out there as often as I could to be with her during that battle that she was engaged in and, you know, initially I grieved a lot when she was gone, cause she was, she was like my cheerleader, you know, she was the person who was always encouraging me in my business and always telling me, you know, you're doing a good job and, and I really miss that when she was gone.

[00:17:05] But now with, you know, some time and, and going through writing the book, I can really look back on number one, looking back on the time that we got to spend together was great despite everything because we really got to connect in a way that we hadn't that much. Because of this ten-year difference we had, we had really two different childhoods. So we would spend, you know, a lot of times comparing notes on how we and, and just, we were able to put together some good memories. I actually write about one of the things in the book one time was, this was the year before she passed, I was out there before Christmas and we decided to make Christmas cookies and we made the, the kind that she always loved, which I, which I love too. So it's basically a sugar cookie. And so I'm, I'm, you know, made the batter and I'm rolling out the dough and I'm flattening the cookies and she's like, you know, you're not flattening them enough. They need to be flattered. And I'm like, okay, fine. You know, press them down a little bit more and then put them in the oven.

[00:18:07] And it wasn't, it was just so annoying that she was right. Like they really did turn out better. You know, so, but it's like, we were able to do things like that. And, and that's like a memory that I hold with me, you know, now forever, because it was, it was a lot of fun and, and, you know, and of course she was, you know, being her big sister ways and just saying how, you know, she was right. And I was wrong and okay. And it's also again, in writing the book, I incorporated some of the things that she went through as well as I did. We had not the greatest of childhoods. My dad was an alcoholic and my mom had a bit of a temper. And so it wasn't, it wasn't easy for either one of us. And, and it affected both of us really in, in, in our business.

[00:18:55] In fact, cause we sort of had doubts about ourselves and, and our self-esteem and, and even when I was writing the book, I was, I was working on one section that the V in love actually stands for value your uniqueness. And I realized as I'm trying to get this book done, trying to get it to the publisher because I wanted to have it published by February. Cause that was when my sister's birthday was and I thought February 21st would be perfect. So I'm trying to get this book done and I'm like, geez, I didn't write much on this section probably because I need to work on this a little bit more. I'm not valuing my own uniqueness a bit, but, anyway, for whatever reason, I was drawn to start looking through some of her, her notebooks and I was trying to check a date or something.

[00:19:43] And I came across a section that she had written about where she was talking about, you know, struggling that of self-worth and why she wasn't even able to fight the cancer. Because, you know, thinking that like, she wasn't worthy to be able to survive this. And you know, and it was like, you know, my heart felt for her. And at the same time, it was also a good reminder that it was like, I needed to know to see how she was experiencing this and, and to be able to even share that in the book for others who, you know, may be suffering from self doubt and, and, and not valuing their own worthiness. And so she's still around helping me. I guess the point I want to make here is that even though she's not, not here physically I still feel her presence and her directing me and helping me out and being the big sister, you know, and really, really still, still helping me from beyond which is, which is quite remarkable.

[00:20:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's so special to have gotten to share those memories. Of course, I mean, and, and then be able to, to use them to help not only inspire yourself and, and value yourself and learn all that, but to then share that with others. That's a really powerful story. So thank you for sharing about that. And then I know you now have a podcast as well. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that and maybe what you chat about on it?

[00:21:14] Gloria Grace Rand: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. Yeah. It's called Live Love Engage, which is actually the same name as my book. And I, I started about a little over a year ago as a way to help me, frankly, write the book. I was thinking that I would be able to do some episodes where I could kind of talk about some of the things I was writing about to really help me to crystallize it. And yeah. I had done a podcast about five years earlier. And that time it was all about online marketing. And so I didn't want to really lose that, but I wanted to put something more into it. So the way I describe it as it's, it's practical advice from a spiritual perspective to help entrepreneurs to create more impact, influence, and income, and what the Live Love Engage is about is being able to live fully, love deeply and engage authentically. And, so this time around, instead of doing it five days a week, which is what I was doing before, which was insane. ,And I burnt myself out. This time, I'm doing interviews in addition to doing my own solo episodes. And so I do at least one interview a week sometimes, especially during the height of the pandemic last year, I was even doing a couple a week.

[00:22:27]Yeah, right. Yeah. I was doing like about two, two interviews a week and it's been so wonderful to be able to talk with so many different people and to be able to get their perspective. I've talked with a lot of, you know, authors and coaches and, and other, other marketing folk too. Cause I also do, you know, again, offer practical advice on how to grow your business, but a lot of times, I'm also talking with people who deal with a mindset issues. Cause the one thing I've learned in being in business for myself, as opposed to when I was an employee, is that, and even dealing with some of my other clients is that you can have all the best tools. You can have a social media presence, you know, all over the place. But if you have a mindset that you're really not worthy to be successful, or that, you know, you've got some types of limiting beliefs around money, that maybe you're not meant to have a lot of money, then you're not going to be successful in business. Even though you might have the best website and you've got a team, even as having a team of people maybe working for you, you're still going to be butting up against a wall because it's really what you think and believe about yourself that is going to have a big impact in how you actually can succeed in business as well as in life for that matter, too.

[00:23:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. And so I'm, I'm curious for our listeners who would like to maybe purchase your book, find out more about your podcast or kind of follow your work, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:24:02]Gloria Grace Rand: Absolutely. You can go to my website, gloriarand.com. And you will be able to see I've got the actual, you can see that link to my podcast is there. Of course, it's on iTunes and all those lovely podcast platforms and they're everywhere, but I do have it on my website. There's a tab that'll take you to the podcast as well as a link to take you to my book. Although you can also go to LiveLoveEngagebook.com. And you can order it there and it's, although it is available on Amazon, as well as on barnesandnoble.com as well. But yeah, and then I'm on, I'm on social media. So as I said, I'm on Facebook and Instagram and all those, all those fun places. If you could look for Gloria Grace Rand and you'll be able to connect with me there as well.

[00:24:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions and I'd love to do that with you if that's okay. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:06] Gloria Grace Rand: Oh, let's see. Art, art to me is expression. And it, because it can have so many different forms and, and I think it is, it's a way of expressing who you are, what your thoughts and beliefs are and it's a way of being able to just communicate you through whatever different modality you find, whether that's writing, whether it's music, whether it's actual painting and drawing. Cause there's so many different ways to be able to express. So yeah, I think, I mean, that's what it is. It's a way of being able to express, express yourself out there in the world.

[00:25:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:56]Gloria Grace Rand: Well, the most important role-- I think it's just being true to who you are and to trust yourself to be able to communicate whatever it is that you want to communicate. Because if you're going about doing something in the arts to please someone else, it's not really ultimately going to be successful. I think you've gotta be able to do whatever it is from your heart to really be able to please yourself. And it may not please everybody. And that's okay. But as long as you are conveying what you want to convey from your heart, then it is going to touch someone else's heart.

[00:26:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts the work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes or titles or the inspiration that went in behind it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left entirely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will.

[00:27:12] Gloria Grace Rand: I think, I think it's a both/ and because I think it just depends on, how you want to put it out there in the world? Because I, I know that there are some people who will do art-- especially I think, and maybe this is more even with painters in particular who, who do want to just let people interpret it. But there's certainly nothing wrong with it being inclusive either and being able to give people maybe some guidance what it should be. That's an interesting question. I can see justifications for both. So yeah, I think it's up to the artist to decide ultimately, because they're the ones who are creating the art, and if they want to provide guidance, that's their prerogative. And if they want to just leave it up to whoever to be able to make their own judgment, that's, that's their prerogative as well.

[00:28:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Well, first of all, thank you so very much for being here today, Gloria. I really appreciate your time and your stories and sharing with us your inspiration and all the cool ways that you have interacted with art over the years. And I'm really excited to continue to follow your journey. And congratulations on the book. That's so exciting, and also the podcast of course as well, but I know, I know it's just such a big deal when you can see that copy of the book in your hands. So congratulations on all of that and again, thank you for your time today and, and your inspiration that you're sharing with everyone. I really appreciate it.

[00:28:50] Gloria Grace Rand: Well, thank you. Thank you so much. And, and I, I love what you're doing for this podcast, because I think it is great to be able to let people know a little bit more about art. So, so I applaud you for what you're doing. So thank you.

[00:29:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:17] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:29:26]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Doug Motel! Doug expresses himself through a wide variety of mediums, including theater and fine art and song-writing, and his episode contains multiple value bombs of advice for aspiring artists, along with the importance of making every moment count in life. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is a photo of Doug himself!)

Get in touch with Doug Motel: https://dougmotel.com | www.mindsalad.com

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Episode 49 - Doug Motel

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am thrilled to have as my guest today, Doug Motel. He is an artist that expresses himself through a wide variety of mediums, including theater and fine art and song writing. And I cannot wait to hear all about it. So thank you so much for being here today, Doug.

[00:00:54] Doug Motel: Lindsey, thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love to hear how you kind of got started. Maybe just what inspired you and then what you're up to these days?

[00:01:06] Doug Motel: Yeah. Well, how I got started-- that really goes really far back. I became really, I would say fascinated, but really the more appropriate word is "obsessed" with portraiture. When I was a little kid, when I was about nine, I used to just draw people's faces all day long, sometimes 20 to 30 portraits a day. And so, you know, when I was 10, 11 you know, I was drawing all the time and I think that, you know, it was a bit of a retreat into a more private space because I didn't, I grew up in an environment that really didn't feel safe to me in my, my family. And I felt like art and drawing was a great refuge. So there was a bit of a, a shift for me when I think I was, I think I was 11. I had done this portrait. It was a political cartoon. And I really, I was really proud of it. And, but I couldn't, I couldn't find it one morning. I woke up and I couldn't find it. It was not in my big stack of drawings. And I asked my mom, you know, "Did you see this cartoon that I had drawn on? I couldn't, I couldn't find it."

[00:02:11] And, and my mother said, "Yeah, your, you know, daddy took it to the poker game last night." And I just said, "Why, why, why would he do that?" And she said, "Because he wanted to show the other, you know, dads the drawing." And up until that point, I really felt honestly invisible to my father. I didn't think that he even, you know, had any idea that I loved art or that I, you know, did art and the fact that he had taken that time, the interest to like secretly, without ever saying anything to me, like he never said anything to me. Like that's a really great drawing. He just, behind my back while I was sleeping, took it so that he could show it cause he was proud of it.

[00:02:58] And I think that there was like a little thing that went off in my brain and I thought, "Oh, this whole thing about being able to draw is like some kind of currency. You know, it gives me some sort of value." And you know, I have to say sadly as a little boy, I, I didn't feel like I had any value. So that was a moment where I thought, "Oh, okay, I get it. Here's this thing that I do." And so, then I began to really, really nurture it and I had a lot of those, "How to Paint a Landscapes" books and how to paint, you know, in watercolor. And I really dove into watercolor, you know, as a 12 year old. And I started showing my work when I was, yeah, when I was 12. I lied my age so that I could be in an art show that was for adults.

[00:03:43] And I actually won a ribbon for a still life that I did. And I just felt like it was the thing that was like the one thing that I could. Do that would give me some sort of value. And that was until I discovered theater also when I was 12, I auditioned for a community theater production. And I got in and that was like, that was kind of like the world going from black and white into Technicolor. The idea of being in a community with other artists and, you know, being in front of an audience too, and getting people clapping for me instead of it feeling so threatening or unsafe as it did at home. That was a big turning point for me. And, and so I would say since then, I I've sort of-- like if you imagine a console where you're like at a sound board and you've got one dimmer switch. You've got two dimmer switches for me. One, the one switch, which would be the fine arts and painting and drawing. And the other dimmer switch would be storytelling. In a theater setting, I would say like my, my life has been kind of a, you know, between moving those two dimmers up and down, back and forth a bit. Was that was that too much?

[00:04:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. No, no, no. I love hearing the background. Thank you. Yeah. So, and I like that illustration , they each have their turns, essentially, and which one comes up a little bit brighter today versus the next day.

[00:05:06] Doug Motel: Yeah. Like I'll go through these periods where I'll really feel like I've got something that I want to say. You know, there was a time when I was living in Los Angeles and a dear friend of mine had been murdered by just a random person in her apartment building. And I just felt the, you know, the, the sense of grief, not just my own personal grief, but all the people that, that knew her. She was a very special person. And I felt like I needed to, to process through it some way artistically and I, I thought about doing it in fine art, but ultimately I decided to write, write a play. And I wrote a play that had about 12 characters in it, and I played all the characters and it was really an homage to her spirit and very much about people going on a spiritual Odyssey when something tragic happens.

[00:05:59] Kind of like, you know, when something tragic happens, kind of like what we're going through right now, you're always at a fork in the road. You could either use it as a, as a way to affirm how horrible the world can be, or you use it as an opening for some sort of a healing. And so I wanted to turn that into a story and I was just lucky because it, it wound up becoming you know, it really found an audience and I wound up, you know, being lucky enough to win a lot of awards in Los Angeles Theater for that. And, and it was supposed to move to a New York theater. That's why I moved back here onto the East coast. And, and in fact, if your listeners want to go on Amazon Prime and search "Shiva Arms," "S H I V A" and then "arms," that's the name of the play. And you can see a, a a filming of me performing it in the theater. So that's an example of, you know, I just didn't know. I knew I wanted to do something artistic to express what I, I felt, I discovered about what, what happens when you're faced with this kind of unexpected really horror, horrible.

[00:07:06] It felt like a horror, like being in a horror movie and how do we respond? And for me, the the, the, the thing to do at that time was to to make theater out of it. Now, the pandemic has really been a place for me to go back to paint. And I've been doing a lot, a lot of painting and I've been painting abstract watercolors with very carefully chosen colors that I believe suggest healing and calm. And in fact, I'm calling the whole series I'm doing right now, "Remedy Paintings" to remedy from the trauma that many of us are going through from this whole pandemic.

[00:07:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that's incredible, and so helpful and so needed right now, because I think, you know, art has always been necessary, but I think in a time like this, it's, it's even more so, or at least there's more awareness to how much it's needed and, and how much transformative power it has.

[00:08:03] Doug Motel: Yeah. Yeah. Because art is something that links us, that brings us together. You know, of course theater brings us together physically when we're in the same room. We can't, we can't be doing that right now, but even just, you know, looking at a piece of art and, you know, right now what I'm doing is abstract art, where, where I'm not painting, I'm not painting things, you know, I'm not painting, you know, people, places or things that are, you know, known. But I'm just using color and shapes and lines to suggest a feeling. But it does connect you when you look at a piece of abstract art and you sort of let your, your mind go. It connects you to the artist and, and, and can, can connect you to the, the, the thought that anyone who looks at this art, also looks at this art is having a shared experience with you. And we need it. We need it now.

[00:08:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Now, you know, I know that from the very beginning, it sounds like you taught yourself, and of course you had some resources through books and things like that to help with that. But did you ever go and have some more formal like art classes or anything like that? Or are you really just, you just kept exploring your own art and learning on your own.

[00:09:20] Doug Motel: Well, when I was 12, I convinced my parents to let me study privately with a woman. Her name was Lorraine Watson, she has since passed, but you know, kind of like you would drop your kid off at violin lessons every week. They would drop me off at Mrs. Watson's house. And I would, she, she did teach me perspective. She taught me you know, she taught me drawing. She did teach me watercolor. She specialized in a Japanese Sumi painting and she taught me a little bit of that. So yeah, I studied privately. And then when I was in high school, I was enrolled in our local vocational school and I studied commercial art, but that was really the extent of it. I dropped out of high school and just really to get away from my environment and I moved to New York City and I studied acting, but I didn't go to university or in things that.

[00:10:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so then from that opportunity in New York city, how did your life trajectory go? 'Cause it sounds like, I mean, obviously you've had so many amazing different experiences, but I'm just curious how, how you got from maybe New York City to LA and just, have you just always been an artist? Is that kind of been your, your path in, in many different forms?

[00:10:42] Doug Motel: Well, I mean, I've always been an artist, but I'm very, very little of my time has been making money doing art. So I've had a million jobs. I've had, I honestly have had more jobs than I could even imagine doing all sorts of things. Most of them legal. Some, some of them perhaps morally questionable, but I did what I could do, you know, as a teenager, living in New York City and not knowing anybody. I did what I could do to survive. But when I was 19, I started performing in comedy clubs. So I would write these little plays that always had some sort of message or theme about human nature, you know, unpacking the nature of reality. I've always just been very interested in things like that. And so I would write these little plays and I would do them in cabarets and comedy clubs in New York City.

[00:11:42] And so that was the main thrust of my, my art, but, you know, so I was essentially a stand-up comic, but I did very different-- the work I did was more, more like what you might've seen Andy Kaufman. My influences were people like Richard Pryor, Robin Williams, Lily Tomlin, people that would do a lot of character work and not necessarily tell jokes per se, the jokes were locked into the characters. And then one day when I was, I think 24, someone saw me performing and then booked me into a, a place in Santa Monica. And so that was kind of, you know, it, I, I went, I flew to LA and I literally got off the plane. I saw that Hollywood sign. I saw how warm it was. And I was like, "Okay, I am moving here."

[00:12:32] And actually within a week, even though I was just out there to reform within a week, I found an apartment. I found a job as an apartment manager where I'd get a free apartment in exchange for, you know, taking care of the building. And then I flew back to New York. I gave my apartment away. I got one of those drive away cars where you, someone asks you to drive their car, you know, for free. But I had never, I had never driven a car before, so I had to get a couple of drivers' license drivers' classes. So I got some class, I took like two driving lessons. And then I packed up one of those drive away cars that I drove across country and I moved to LA and I thought I was, I would live there forever, but when "Shiva Arms" seemed to find an audience and I was encouraged to move back to New York to do it perhaps on Broadway.

[00:13:20]I went back to New York, but unfortunately it was just a few days before 9/11. And I happened to been down in front of the World World Trade Center on 9/11, 'cause I had a temp job in an office facing the World Trade Center. And so that that's a whole other, if you ever have me back as a guest, some other time, I can tell you what that was like to look out the window and see all those people jumping. I was really traumatized by that event. 'Cause I had, cause I had left Los Angeles, I left everything that I really had built up to move to New York just to have that happen. And so yeah. So yeah, that changed some things.

[00:14:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, your story is so incredible how just you've had all these different experiences and opportunities and it's so cool to hear just the way that you got from A to B to Z and all those fun things. And so, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Oh my goodness. And so do you do stand up comedy anymore, or?

[00:14:25] Doug Motel: Well, you know, there's no, there's no place to do it now, really, you know and I, I was working on a piece a little bit when this happened . Right now I'm very obsessed with the fine arts and the abstract painting. It's hard for me to think beyond that, but my chances are pretty good that I'll someday write another, I call it, you know, they really are plays, they're solo plays that I just happened to play all the characters. And I've had, I think, seven of these produced. So it's very possible that I'll want to do another one, but right now my focus really is on painting. It's so easy. Like you don't have to, like when you're performing you, I have to like get in shape. You know, I have to, you know, do yoga all the time. I have to make sure I don't get sick. I have to vocalize. I have to run lines every day. You know, and then just, there's a lot of preparation and, and also collaboration. You're dependent on other people, the theaters, the producers, there's so much that's involved in it. It can be very, very rewarding, but it also can be very exhausting and, you know, painting-- it's just so solitary.

[00:15:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and what a perfect time to be obsessed with this particular project, because it's not like there are tons of opportunities to perform live, so yeah, I think that timing worked out beautifully.

[00:15:51] Doug Motel: Yeah, I think so, too.

[00:15:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, I'm curious. I mean, you obviously-- well, my interpretation is-- you are incredibly brave and all the different things that you've done to step out of your comfort zone time and time again-- or just what you're familiar with, maybe not even comfort zone-- and go for the next thing is just awesome. So I'm curious, how did that come about? Or what advice could you give somebody who is maybe hoping to take, you know, a leap of faith and not there yet?

[00:16:23] Doug Motel: Oh yes. So you know, there's some cliches that you know, we hear them all the time. So we've become immune to them. They've lost their impact, but, you know, they're cliches for a reason because they often are true. And the cliche that people have become sort of immune to-- which is very true, though, in spite of that-- is that this isn't the rehearsal. This is the thing. This is life we're living now. This is not a dress rehearsal. This is the show itself. And I just feel like there's so much about our society that has us focused on what's missing. It's almost like, you know, you're given a donut and all we can focus on is that hole in the middle, the empty hole. And we don't see the sugary treat. I feel like our whole society is like a cult and it's like the cult of more, you need to have more, you need to be more successful. You need to have more likes on social media, you need to have more money, more and more, more, and it's like this carrot that's dangled in front of you. Many people don't even know what it is that they're looking for, what it is that they want more of, but they just know like they need to have more.

[00:17:36] And I would say that comes a point where you have to understand that there's nothing out there, all, all that this, all that life really is-- it's almost just like a bunch of pearls strung on a string. Like it's just, it's just moments. They're just a bunch of now moments strung together. That's what a life is. And if you don't seize the moment, if you don't give every moment the importance, and approach each moment with a mental posture of "this is the most important moment on my life." This is it. It's not coming. It's not around the bend. You know, it's not when I get this or when I get rid of this or when I change this. No, this is it now, because if there's something that you want or something that you feel is missing, this is the day. This is the moment to be doing something, to bring that into fruition, to bring that into your life.

[00:18:42] And I think our culture hypnotizes us into just putting that off and putting it off and any day now, and yes, I'm going to do, you know, when I'm more together or when I'm more healed or when I'm not, when I'm not so messed up or so neurotic or, or whatever. But I just say, come as you are, you know, no matter how messed up you may be or how broken you may feel, you are, you still have the agency to live for this moment, to have this moment right now be the most important moment. You know, I feel like from the beginning of time, people who were dying, people on their death bed have told us the same message year after year after year after millennium, after millennium, they say," You know, don't take it so serious."

[00:19:29] That's what they're learning and they give us this message and then they die and then they, you know, they think we're going to, you know, and then we just, we go, "Oh, wow. Yeah, don't take us as seriously." And then we forget. And then we get right back in there and we make it all very serious. And I think if you've made it serious so far, that's okay, that's over now. But right now in this moment, listening to Lindsey and I talking, all that is over, and this is a new moment for you. You're born again and you can choose again and you can take an action right now to, to move yourself closer to the circumstances that you want especially if you understand that your circumstances changing is not going to give you life, is not going to put the play button. The record button for life is on.

[00:20:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that was brilliant.

[00:20:22]Doug Motel: I've thought a lot about this. I've lost people. And I guess partly because I'm coming out of this whole period, you know, this whole period of this pandemic and I just, you know, this is it. This is it, folks.

[00:20:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's that realization and it's important and no, I'm absolutely serious. I was sitting here thinking, do you do motivational speaking as well? Because if you don't, you could.

[00:20:51]Doug Motel: Sure. I do. I have to confess that I have a, kind of a weird story, a weird backstory that, you know, sometimes I feel funny talking about, but I guess at this point, it just seems natural for me to tell you that when I was four years old, I fell off of a ladder and I had a head injury. And when I came back from the hospital that very night, I had what I guess people would call a mystical experience. And I can't say that I can explain what this is, but there was a a presence. It was like a sphere. It was like an orb, I guess, that came to me. And it said "uni verse, uni, one verse, from a song, all is one." and basically it was telling me that the whole universe was one living thing, and it came and visited me in my room and in our little apartment for a year, every single night. And it never said anything else. At first I was very scared. I was scared because I was, I mean, that was four years old, you know, and there was this presence, you know, but then by the end of the year, I became to really welcome it and this orb would appear. And it would just say the same thing, that "the world was one thing."

[00:22:03] And I think my whole life, Lindsey, has been unpacking that. My whole life really has been spent looking at that quote unquote "mystical experience" or whatever from that head injury and thinking, you know, it's kind of true. If you say you look at a tree and we may think of there's, that tree is if that's a separate object, but can you separate a tree from the soil that, that the roots are in, or can you separate a tree from the sun that's coming onto it? You know, like where does tree stop and all that other stuff start? And I know I'm getting super esoteric here but, you know, these are weird things to talk about and yet when you really stop and think about it, we're just told that we're separate from each other. And all the things, but there's no real evidence. There's no evidence. And if you pull back and you look at the earth from space, earth looks like one thing. And if you pull back into farther into space, our solar system looks like it's one kind of a thing you can point to that. And the ball that visited me when I was four, you know, telling me that everything was one, I've just spent my whole life unpacking that idea.

[00:23:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. I mean, what an incredible experience. And I love that that's kind of been the catalyst, I guess, for exploration as to your search for truth and meaning, and, right, all those things. That's really cool.

[00:23:36] Doug Motel: Yeah. I don't think I've ever done anything artistically that wasn't in some way connected to my trying to really get a deeper understanding of the nature of our reality.

[00:23:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's cool. Well, my goodness, you have such an inspiring story, not only from your own perspective and all those different experiences that you've had. But again, just your bravery, your willingness to be here and now and live in the moment, and what that's brought you, because you've gotten to do some really cool things. And so I just really appreciate you sharing all of that and sharing your inspiration as far as, you know, "Go for it. This is the show, that there is no dress rehearsal."

[00:24:21] Doug Motel: You know, you asked me about motivational speaking and you're right, yes. I have done a lot of that. I, I wrote a play that was about a British screenwriter being plagued by his own mind, his own inner critic. And then I wound up turning that play into a workshop, the play's called "Mind Salad" and the workshop is, you know, about how we can really identify the voice of criticism, right? And the voice in there that's, it's, it's out to get you it's, it's the voice trying to keep you from being in the now. And so I've done that workshop. I've done it for people with life-threatening illnesses. I've done it for, I think, I think if you go to mindsalad.com, there's information about that. I've done it for people in recovery. I've done it for, you know, all kinds of different organizations. I do a retreat every year.

[00:25:07]Last year I did it on Hawaii. And this year I had to do it virtually, but "Playing the Game," I did, it's called "Playing the Game" of the year. So it was "Playing the Game of 2021." And it was a three-day Zoom retreat about looking at the previous year and being complete with it, you know, the good, taking a look at the good, the bad and the ugly and really putting it to bed. And then looking at what do you want the coming year to feel like much more, I'm much more interested nowadays and how do you want it to feel? Because ultimately that's what really matters more than, you know, what do you want to accomplish? So yeah, so I do these workshops. I do coach people on this stuff too. Sometimes I say that I'm a storyteller who helps people look at the story that they're telling themselves about themselves. And I work with people in that way, so yeah, that's a whole other component of it that's, that's pretty important to me. I have a TEDx talk called "Using the Present to Create the Future." You might, you could look for that on YouTube as well.

[00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Awesome. Yeah, I'm definitely going to check that out. Well, this is very exciting and I'm sure that some of our listeners would want to connect with you, follow some of your work, just see what's going on. Do you have a way for us to do that?

[00:26:25] Doug Motel: Yeah. So there's dougmotel.com. There's also dougmartel.art. And then on Instagram, there's Doug Motel Art.

[00:26:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect.

[00:26:35] Doug Motel: Yeah. And I'd love to hear from people. If any of this conversation got you thinking about seizing the moment, actually, it's funny, you said "This is the Show." Actually I did write a one man, a musical memoir called "This is the Show." So there's also songs. I wrote some pop songs and there's one is called, "This is the Show."

[00:26:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Perfect. I love it. Well, okay. So I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:27:05] Doug Motel: Yeah, sure.

[00:27:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:27:13]Doug Motel: I think that art is when you actively step into creation and extend that, whatever, you know, whatever it is that created us has, I believe that whatever it is that created us has endowed us with the very same abilities, which is to create. And whenever you step into that and make a choice to create you are partaking in art. You are making art.

[00:27:45]Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. Perfect. Okay. And then w what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:53]Doug Motel: Well, I think the, the role of the artist is to lead us in our evolution. I think that you know, Darwin pointed out that we evolved from creatures in the sea, you know, we keep evolving and I think that there's an assumption that evolution is just kind of like on autopilot, but I don't. I believe that we could actually hasten the pace of our evolution. We can you know steer and direct our evolution and the ones that do that are the artists. So the role of the artist is nothing short of saving humanity.

[00:28:34]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that so much. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and includes some context behind that, whether it's inspiration or program notes or title, something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide context. And so it's left entirely up to the viewer as to its interpretation.

[00:29:09] Doug Motel: Oh, well, as a multi- medium artist, I think it depends on the medium. You know, sometimes for theater, some kind of context may be very helpful to people, whether it's program notes or a prologue or something like that. It can be, you know, really helped the artist to convey the idea. As an abstract painter, I try to stay out of the way. I try not to talk too much about what I was thinking or what was behind when I was making a painting and instead just, you know, I, I feel like my paintings are similar, well, it's kind of similar to-- well, it's funny. I never thought about that til right now, but I always say, you know, people say, "Oh, you do one man shows." And I said, "Well, not really, cause like I do my bit." And then the audience does their bit because I feed off of that energy, you know, I'll throw out something into the audience and then they'll give me back some, you know, laughter or whatever, and then I'll throw it back to them. It's like a game, a toss, you know, like a game of just tossing the ball.

[00:30:14]But I just realized now that I think that's what I'm going for also with my painting, because I, half of it is me doing the painting, but then the other half of it is allowing the, the viewer to have their own experience. Sometimes people look at my paintings and they may have a whole story. And I love that, you know, you can project onto it, you know like Rorschach tests. So in that medium it's best if I get out of the way, but I used to do very real, very, very realistic portraits. And sometimes it was helpful for me to write a little story about who the person was that I was, you know, doing the portrait of because they were important to me historically, but maybe not a famous person. Giving people context for who they were made their experience of enjoying the artwork even greater. So it really depends on the medium.

[00:31:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. And I love that you have like an unpacking moment right now about your art. That's really fun. I love it. Perfect. Well, this was incredible. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing your art. Thank you for what you've brought to the world and helping us to evolve. As you mentioned, I really appreciate that you've devoted your life to that and that you've stayed consistent in your mission to bring art to the world. So that's important and valuable. And thank you for doing that.

[00:31:44] Doug Motel: Thank you, Lindsey, so much for allowing me to talk about this today.

[00:31:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would highly encourage all of our listeners to check out Doug's website, see some of the work that he's done, go watch the video on Amazon, and all of the other opportunities you have to connect with him. Obviously he is incredibly inspiring and I'm sure that all of us will be so excited to continue to follow his journey. So thank you again, Doug, for being here and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:32:27]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:32:35]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Kristin Beale! Kristin is an author and illustrator, with a powerful story to share about overcoming an accident that left her paralyzed from the waist down. She shares her advice for aspring artists, her experience publishing three books and producing a TV show, and so much more. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Kristin holding a copy of her book, "Greater Things!"

Get in touch with Kristin Beale: https://kristinbeale.com/

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Episode 48 - Kristin Beale

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Kristin Beale. She is an author and illustrator and she has incredible stories to share. And I just am so excited to dive in. Thank you so much for being here, Kristin.

[00:00:51] Kristin Beale: I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, and I would love if you would just share a little bit, maybe about your background, kind of what got you into what you do now and all that fun stuff, if you don't mind.

[00:01:05] Kristin Beale: Yeah, definitely. So I have quite a story. When I was 14 years old in 2005, I was in a jet ski accident. It was the summer before my sophomore year of high school. So I was about to turn 15 years old. The accident was tragic, life-changing, all those things. It killed the driver of my jet ski and it paralyzed me from the mid- torso down. I had a traumatic brain injury and a spinal cord injury. Doctors told my parents "Your daughter is never going to live." Or, you know, "If she does, she's not going to breathe or talk or swallow or all that stuff." And then I did, I'm talking, breathing, swallowing. So they, then they said, "She's going to be a vegetable." first of all, 'cause I had a traumatic brain injury, and then if "She's not, she's going to, I'm not going to have, I had a traumatic brain injury on the left side, so I'm not going to have the ability to use my right side," is what they said. And they said "I'm never going to feel or move below my injury level again."

[00:01:55] So that's a lot to load onto my poor parents, but they did, and I have overcome all those things. I am not a vegetable, et cetera, and I'm still working. And I started, I started on my journey to recovery in going to California, traveling the world, getting stem cells, et cetera, to regain feeling and movement in my lower body to walk and feel again and prove the doctor's wrong on that. So I got out of the hospital in December of 2005. And then I came back and then I went to California for, you know, a month, worked out five or four hours a day, five days a week, just out of control, came back, started my sophomore year of high school. And I was looking for a easy class to take, and I heard that the teacher of creative writing was kind of a slacker and also you can't really, you know, fail a creative writing class. So I took a creative writing class. I really, I kind of, this is where I can start to kind of discover my creativity.

[00:02:51]I discovered that I love to write. I'm pretty good at it. I have a lot of things going on that are new experiences that I can write about. And to accompany it, so I took creative writing class and I took an art class, two classes that you can't really, you know, do badly in because it's all subjective. So creative writing, I realized that I love to write. In art class, I realized that I love to draw and, you know, they were both there. I use them both as kind of outlets to discovering this new world of disability and all of this new things going on in my life. And it was kind of like a venting, but it was a relaxing 'cause you know, all the craziness of my new paralyzed world. But I'm, you know, just in my drawings and I was just expressing myself that way and I'm, you know, expressing myself and my frustrations in a way that I don't in my normal life, 'cause I'm like a super sweet girl and you know, it was kind of an outlet for me.

[00:03:43]So I started to make drawings when I was 15 years old surrounding my disability. I kind of define my character. I drew, I drew Molly. My main character is a girl in a wheelchair, which is me. And I'm just going through, you know, situations in life, which I really go through. And I actually, for the first three years of me kind of discovering how to draw her, that I liked to draw. I did a comic every day. I did a three block comic every day. Just like things that happen, usually, you know, mundane, just boring things that happened. I did it every single day for the whole entire year. And then on Christmas, I just gave my mom, you know, the year's worth of drawings, because I didn't really care 'cause I didn't really want them anymore. And she wanted them and it's an easy Christmas present and it's just like, you know, a year of a day in the life of me. And that's when I kinda really started to get into it.

[00:04:35]So, it was my first book "Greater Things" in 2017, and that was a book that's about like the weekend before my accident, where we see, we meet this boy I have a really big crush on, and the next weekend he actually hits me in the jet ski and it's kind of the weekend before my accident, all the way up to 2014. So I'm traveling the world, I'm working out, I'm getting stem cell surgery. I'm trying all these adaptive sports. I'm graduating high school in college, doing all these things, published a book in 2014 in March and in February the month before it came out, I quit my job cause I, you know, I'm not interested in mortgage banking. I was looking for an excuse to get out of it. I published a book. So I said, "Okay, please God, make me successful in this enough to like eat and sustain my life." So the book was a great success. And three months after my book came out, I said, "All right, I quit my job. I either need to write another book or I need to get a job." So I decided I'll write another book. So I started, so what I did, as I said, what do I do? A lot of that, I know a lot about that I can write a book about, and my answer was go on first dates.

[00:05:39] So I was very, very, very single at the time. So I, you know, updated my profile in-- Bumble was my app of choice, updated my profile picture. I went on 32 dates in two and a half months, and that looks like a lot. I know it's crazy. A lunch date, a dinner date, you know, four different boys a week. Kinda like at the end of it, of course, as you can imagine, I've kind of lost my desire for you know, a successful relationship. And I'm just kinda chasing the story because these boys were that I went on dates with were like way too rude. Everyone can relate to a bad first date, but throw disability into it and dating gets a little bit more difficult. So what I was doing is, I was going on these dates. I was enduring these, you know, it makes me sound like such a warrior, but like I was enduring these rude comments, the like, the bad jokes, like the offensive jokes and just mainly just rude comments.

[00:06:32] Gross people are gross dates, I guess, in my experience. And I was going home and I was making a comic of them, changing their name like that, getting home from the date that night changes their name, making comic of it and moving on. It was my way of coping, I guess, but it was also documenting these dates and trying to add a humorous angle on this very relatable situation. So at the end of it, when I reached 32, I said, "I can't do this anymore. Like, I've had enough. I need, I think, I finally have enough." So I published a comic book called "Date Me" and and it had all, all my first dates in there. And it also had comics around being single, being in a wheelchair, like, you know, people make or jokes they make, or things people say, or just like kind of adding a funny angle on a kind of crummy situation.

[00:07:19]And I published "Date Me" in 2018. And, you know, I started drawing in 2015. It's been a very fun book to publish because I'm, you know, it was a subject that is a lot of dating as a subject. It's a lot of fun, but, and it was also fun because these guys, I went on dates with some of them, like five or six of them, like, "Hey Kristin, what have you been doing?" I'm like, actually I published a book and you're in it. I changed your name. And some of them bought it, some of them didn't and never talked to me again and all of them didn't talk to me again, but I was completely honest. So if you don't want to like be published in a book, just don't be mean to me

[00:07:55]Lindsey Dinneen: That's just great life advice in general. Just-- if you don't want to end up in someone's book, just be nice. Yeah. Easy.

[00:08:02]Kristin Beale: I told them I was an author. What did they expect?

[00:08:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, you are such an overcomer and I just love your story. Thank you for sharing that. And gosh, I, I feel like you probably glossed over how challenging all of those-- I mean, you had so much to overcome, but like kudos to you for just never giving up, never accepting the doctor's word for it, that you couldn't do something just because they said. So good for you.

[00:08:36] Kristin Beale: Thank you. I gave you the quick and easy for the full version. You can read "Greater Things," but...

[00:08:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, and with "Date Me," I just, first of all, that sounds like such a great premise. I can't wait to read the book, but do you have-- like, what is the funniest story that you encounter that kind of stands out to you?

[00:08:54] Kristin Beale: Oh my gosh. So, funny depends on your definition of funny. Once I became into the more callous zone, like the ruder they get or the more ridiculous it is, the funnier it is because I'm just like, whatever I'm thinking in my head, "Whatever, I'm going to publish you in a comic book when I get home" or like When I'm going to make a comic of this later. So things like-- one of the most relatable to wheelchair users comic that I have is, I guess you would call them jokes. The jokes people make like, you know, "Do you have a license to drive that thing?" Or like "Slow down, you're breaking the speed limit," but stupid things like that. Like, " We need backup, backup blinker so we can know when you're backing up, or like blinkers to know which way you're turning." Just like all the vehicle jokes around my wheelchair. It's like exhausting, but for whatever reason, like people love to make it.

[00:09:41] It's not offensive to me because whatever, I don't care, I'll make a comic of you. So it's fine. But I can, but I can take that comic, 'cause I, in one of the comics I put, I know there's six block comics, so I have five, five of those jokes. I have six of those jokes, I'll put together in one big comic and I can show that to a wheelchair user and they can just, I mean, laugh in agreement because everyone's heard them because everyone makes something. I don't know why people make them. It's just like, it's not offensive, but it's just dumb. It's just bad humor. No offense to listeners who make those jokes, but it's just not fun.

[00:10:12]Lindsey Dinneen: No, they should probably hear that too, right? Like, you know, things that are funny to you are probably just like ridiculous to the people you're telling them to. So maybe just stop, just stop, to sum up. Oh man. Okay. Well, yeah, that makes complete sense. So now that you've done that and you've gone on from there, it sounds like you're still on a journey to continue to be, you know, writing more books and maybe doing other things too. I got kind of a hint to that before we started recording.

[00:10:45] Kristin Beale: Yeah. So being an entrepreneur, working from like saying I'm not going to get a job, and working for myself is a constant, you know, at all hours of the day. I guess not struggle, but a constant job because I have to keep, keep the money coming in and keep doing things, keep doing projects. But that being said, it is so much fun and I love it. And I love my work so much. And I like don't mind if I have to, you know, write for a little bit past five o'clock. I don't, I don't mind the work at all. So what I'm doing, two things, the "Date Me" comic book of all those dates. Last June, I was approached by Salt Fire Studio and their local production company, and they told me that they wanted to turn "Date Me" into a TV show. And before I lost my mind, because I had, I had done this before, cause I had two people, two producers come to me and say, they want to make "Greater Things" a video.

[00:11:39]So I get very, very excited and then it falls through and then I'm very, very disappointed, you know, as it goes. So when Tyler Darden, the owner and producer of Salt Fire Studio, he told me that he wanted to make "Date Me" to a TV show. I'm like, "Yeah. Okay. Like, let's talk when, when you get serious." So about a year later, Tyler comes to me and he says," All right, I'm ready to make it into a show." And in about a month of, you know, my dream coming true, we cast a girl to play Kristin from the other side of the country. She's from California. We had to cast my best friend, Katie, my dad for the first episode, my dad, and four dates, four different men. In the first episode, I go on seven dates. And so much fun. We recorded it. We put out the pilot episode, it's on YouTube. If you search "Date Me." We're also on Instagram as "Date Me" show and Facebook, at "Date Me" series, and we are raising money to make episode two and the rest of season one. So you know, we're on Patrion and stuff. But it's so much fun in the videos out there.

[00:12:39] So I want, I'm excited to be able to share my experience and, you know, my funny and bummer situations with everyone. So everyone go on YouTube and watch the first episode. So that's, that's my active, latest project, but also my ongoing projects. So ever since "Date Me "the comic book came out, was published in 2018, I started a weekly comic Instagram page where it's just every week on Instagram, it's every Tuesday comes out. And it's just like something that happened during the week. Something I thought about just something funny that it wrote it's it is six block comics again, because that's my style. And it's found on Instagram at Greater Things Comics. So that's a really fun thing. So if nothing else, check that out and follow along, because I have a lot of fun with that because it's my ability to consistently put out art, and consistently have a reason-- I mean, there's no reason for me to be doing that, doing those weekly comics, except for it's fun for me, 'cause I'm not like making any money off of it, but it's, it's fun to like have an audience and being able to share my art. And that's been one of the biggest blessings out of this ability to share and ability to have an audience.

[00:13:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. And to help inspire other people because your story is so amazing. And then you're able to also talk about the fact that art was such a big part of, you know, finding out what you wanted to do with your life, which is so cool. I mean, I think it's just ironic and, and entertaining how, you know, at first it was like, well, these are the two classes that will be kind of easier credits and then you end up falling in love with it. Like, I love that. Wow. That's fantastic. Congratulations. That's such a big deal for this TV show and everything. So this is so exciting. Oh, my word. Yeah. Congratulations.

[00:14:28] Kristin Beale: Thank you. Life is so much fun. Life is so much fun. It's a little bit stressful when you're working for yourself and you're unemployed, but it's one of the best things that I have ever done. 'Cause it's, it's just so much fun 'cause I'm doing what I love every day and, you know, and people, people say that they're like, "Oh, I love my job." And I've always wondered, "Do they really love their job?" Like, "Do they really look forward to going into work in the morning?" And then I quit my job and started my own thing and I truly just love my job.

[00:14:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and speaking of that, because that is such a big undertaking, is there any kind of advice you would give somebody who might be interested in doing that? Like they, they want to take their side gig, their side passion, and make it their full-time thing. I mean, how, how do you make it work? Like on a practical day-to-day basis?

[00:15:15]Kristin Beale: So before you take the leap, figure out how much money you need and make sure that doing your side gig, that you have the ability to make money off it. Like, for me, it's a little tight, but I have my books and book sales, and then I have some of the it's, write for Chris Reeve Foundation every month, twice a month. So I have that income coming in. I just do a bunch of side gigs, which again is fun because it's, you know, side stuff like writing. And I love to write, and like drawing, which you know, is not profitable yet, but one day. And so make sure that the money part is taken care of. And then if you're trying to turn a hobby into a job, be very mindful of, of that. Because if once, once I start dreading drawing or dreading writing or, you know, just doing it, 'cause I have to do it is when it turns into less of a fun thing and more of a responsibility and the, the love for it is lost. So you have to closely manage your feelings closely so that you don't-- you know, I used to love to draw, but then I quit my job. Like I choose to be my best friend and then I moved in with her. And then, so now we're enemies. That's like a common roommate thing. So it's kind of the same thing with art, like make sure that you still love it and that it's still fun for you because it's miserable if it's not.

[00:16:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I, I was thinking along the exact same lines when you were talking about the transition of something that you love to do on the side and make it and how fun that can be, but then when you have to do it in order to, to make money. Yeah. I really appreciated your advice on that. Make sure you got the money thing figured out, so it doesn't become burdensome and frustrating all of a sudden, you know, instead of your joy. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, cool. So I'm so curious, is it really odd to watch someone else portray you in a TV show?

[00:17:09] Kristin Beale: People ask me that all the time and yes, it is always, it is always a lot. And it's because it's this, it's this girl who she's not in a wheelchair, but I taught her. I mean, I teach her how to be a wheelchair. It's not that hard, it's kind of like, sit down and don't move your legs. It's a little more complicated than that. But she's using my old wheelchair. I taught her how to be in a wheelchair. I taught her how to do things like transfer and I taught her how to do wheelies. And it's, it's odd when I'm behind the scenes directing it and, you know, she says something and then I can stop and say, "Hey, like, say that a little less cheesy," or like, "Say that, you know, a little more excited or not," and just to be able to direct someone to be me, which is very cool. And when you guys watched the episode, look for me in the background. I make a few cameos in there. Enough to learn that I love to be behind the scenes and I'm not an actress. I'm not an actress. I had a couple of lines. I'm a wheelchair fencer too.

[00:18:05]So I had a couple of lines in the fencing gym to the girl who plays Kristin. And by couple, I mean, like, I think I had three lines and we had to shoot it five or six times because I kept forgetting, you know, three sentences, three lines, or I'm like, I'm giggling in the right place or I'm like snorting, or like, it's just kind of like, what are you? But for what, like, I'm not nervous, but I get in front of the camera and I like lose my sense of I'm a human being. And so anyway, I love to be behind the camera and I love to direct people to be me, which is fun. And I love to get myself to get my passive aggressive revenge. Once again, 'cause these, these guys who were rude to me or like gross or, you know, whatever they were, I'm publishing in the comic book, which is like exposing you and, you know, teaching you that lesson maybe. But now I'm taking it one step further and I'm, you know, portraying them in a video. So it's really like, don't cross me. I'm just kidding, but really.

[00:19:02] Lindsey Dinneen: But seriously. Amazing. Oh my goodness. Okay. And I feel like, so you had a moment where I was like, wait, what? So, okay. You also fence.

[00:19:12] Kristin Beale: Oh, yeah. So the first episode is really fun because I am a wheelchair fencer. I've national- level competing wheelchair fencer. That's been really fun, but doing that for about two years, it's kind of me, who is a very soft and friendly and happy person. People say, "Oh, you have an outlet. You have an outlet is your fencing." And I'm like, "I don't, I don't have anger that I need outlet." So it's a very like out of character to be a fencer, but it's very, very fun. And it's one, I've tried over 14 adaptive sports and it's one of my favorites. My second favorite is hand cycling. I've done nine marathons, very active. That's very fun. That's like the equivalent of running. It's like a bike with three wheels that I push with my arms. So I, when I do marathons, it's like the equivalent of running and that's been awesome because before I was in my accident, I was a lacrosse player, field hockey player and competition cheerleader. So I was very active. And so when I got in my accident, my biggest heartbreak was I can't do sports. Like I can't, you know, I don't have that outlet. I'm going to get, you know, I'm going to get fat and I'm just going to be sitting there. I'm not going to have any way to like exercise my body, except for ,you know, arm, arm exercise in the gym, but adaptive sports are so much, in my opinion, so much more fun than regular sports. And hand cycling and fencing have been my two favorites.

[00:20:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. I love that. And honestly, I wasn't familiar with the term "adaptive sports." so what all kinds of options are there out there?

[00:20:37]Kristin Beale: So I'll try to remember them all. I've done lacrosse, tennis, archery, rowing, and cycling, fencing. What else? I've tried everything that is available to me except for basketball, because I'm just really not naturally good at it at all. But I'm just not into basketball. Let me think what else? So there's an adaptive sports like team league, I guess. And I'm from Richmond. And they have, I think 15 sports, 15 or 16 sports available to people who sign up. So that's how I'm getting all of them. And then I went through the adaptive fencing through the VA hospital. They were just having a clinic and then I got onto the-- I'm not on the national team-- but I compete with the people. I'm not good enough to be like Olympic on the national team, but I fence alongside-- I'm friends with the people who are going to, you know, Tokyo next year or like one guy has been two, two Olympics. And he was just like here fencing with me. And it's very cool. So. All the opportunities and the places I get to travel for that, like I have been to the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs for two years in a row. I guess pre-COVID actually right before the pandemic started. I was coming over from Colorado for a week of training, like five hours of fencing per day in this beautiful Colorado Springs. And it's, it's the best.

[00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so cool. And I love the opportunities that you've gotten to have because of it. And, oh my goodness, the people you get to interact with, how awesome is that?

[00:22:01] Kristin Beale: Yeah, like being at the training center, and you're surrounded by people from all different sports. I mean, able-bodied and disabled. We were actually the only wheelchair users there. But, but just like being, being like in the environment of, you know, that level of athleticism. Being around all these Olympians, just walking around, eating next to you in the dining hall. It's, it's really, really cool. I don't know a stronger word for that, but it's really cool.

[00:22:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I was going to say if it seems so surreal, just like, is this my life?

[00:22:31] Kristin Beale: Where am I again?

[00:22:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Do you think you'll ever write about your sports adventures? Like your fencing and things like that, or is that just like part of other things, do you think?

[00:22:43]Kristin Beale: Definitely. And I have, so in "Greater Things," my first book is where I was very new in my disability, so I was learning. Skiing was also a big one. I went to Colorado a couple of years in a row to ski at the like Breckenridge . That was really fun. So that was my first adaptive sport. And my first book, I think I'd tried nine or 10 of them. And there's a chapter for each one. You know, skiing, for example, it looks very cool. And you're in this mono ski and I'm, you know, I have like little mini skis, sitting down, of course. I have little mini skis on each hand and it looks very like, you know, awesome and fun. But then if you read my book, you see the perspective of like, I have snow in my nose. I don't like the cold. I keep falling. So you see the very real experience of it and it's unique of course, 'cause I'm, you know, paralyzed. So not a lot of people can relate to that, but then you see the reality of like, "Oh, she's doing this, you know, totally unique thing." But she's also like, you know, kind of just like me, 'cause she has snow in her nose and she doesn't like the cold and all that stuff.

[00:23:44] So. That was my first book is I did all those sports. And then I found my love for for hand cycling at the end of that book. And so I did the New York marathon was my first, my first marathon. So I, I did that marathon. I fell in love with sport, all that stuff. And then I published my third book, which is called "A Million Suns." And there's a chapter where it's like of that clinic where I discover wheelchair fencing. And, and then later on in the book, you see, actually I love wheelchair fencing. And so, so you're kind of going through all these new sports and experiencing that for the first time with me. And then you realize, you know, I found the two things I love: hand cycling and fencing.

[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Oh, perfect. Oh, I can't wait to read those books. Obviously I would like to, to continue to follow your journey and I'm sure some of our listeners would too. Is there a way for us to connect with you or where can we, you know, support you and follow you and everything?

[00:24:40] Kristin Beale: Awesome. So like I said, well, okay. Like I said, The Greater Things comics on Instagram. We have "Date Me" show on Instagram and I'm also Kristin Beale on Instagram, lots of Instagram here. And then my website is kristinbeale.com and that's where you can watch a video of me talking about my accident a little bit. You can read an excerpt, you can buy a book, whatever. You can also buy books on Amazon.

[00:25:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:14] Kristin Beale: Ooh, so I define art as an outlet because that's what it is to me. It started as an outlet. And so now , it's turning into an outlet for me when I got hurt and all this stuff. And now it's an outlet for my creativity and for my humor and for my personality. Whereas before it was an outlet for my frustration. I mean, at times it still is not for my frustration, but an outlet for my frustration and my new experiences and kind of digesting the world around me. So it looks like for me, it looks like, you know, real life experiences are relatable things or just things that will make you laugh or things that's a way to entertain people. Yeah, so an outlet for my creativity.

[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:01] Kristin Beale: Hm. The important role: to entertain and not to entertain others for that is a big plus, but to entertain yourself, to keep yourself happy to stay while you're doing it for it to be a good, you know, way to keep yourself happy. And, you know, it's a major plus if it can bring happiness to other people too.

[00:26:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive, and inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's the inspiration or title or program notes, something just so that we kind of know what the artist was thinking. Versus an artist who puts their work out there and it doesn't provide the context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will.

[00:26:56] Kristin Beale: I like the idea of an exclusive, I'm not putting context into it, because it allows people to have their own experience with your art and interpret it based off of, you know, things in their life and make it personal to them on their own terms. Instead of someone, you know-- they're both right ways-- but instead of someone forcing you and saying, "This is how you should take in this art," but saying "You know, do what you will with it." Just putting it out here.

[00:27:22]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much, so much for being here today, Kristin. Your story is just incredibly inspiring and humorous, and I cannot wait to-- well the humorous part, being all your dating stories, I mean don't get me wrong-- but I just love, I just loved what you were sharing with us and I cannot wait to read those books and I highly encourage anyone listening to this episode to do so too, and follow Kristin on Instagram and all the different ways that she's doing that. Go, if you can support her endeavor with the TV show and, and all those things. So seriously, Kristin, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

[00:28:06]Kristin Beale: It's so much fun. Thank you.

[00:28:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:28:21] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:28:30]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Lucas Zellers! Lucas is the podcast host and creator of "Making a Monster," and the writer and creator behind Scintillla Studio. He shares his unique perspective on art through the lens of role-playing games, and how the monsters his guests explain on his podcast share powerful truths about life. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is the logo of Lucas' "Making a Monster" podcast!)

Get in touch with Lucas Zellers: https://scintilla.studio/

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Episode 47 - Lucas Zellers

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey. And I am so excited to be interviewing today, Lucas Zellers. He is the host of the Making a Monster podcast, as well as a writer Scintilla Studio, and I am so excited for him to be here because he brings a really unique perspective on art. And I cannot wait to share his stories and find out so much more about all the different ways that you've dabbled in art, Lucas. So thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:04] Lucas Zellers: Well, it's my pleasure, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I would love if you would just share a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art and, and then started writing and hosting this podcast. I'd just love to hear more.

[00:01:20] Lucas Zellers: Sure. Yeah. So my journey as an artist is-- I always like to tell people that I'm a, I'm a chronic generalist. I started as a musician and became a writer by training and dabbled a lot in 2D design and illustration and sketching. I spent a long time in stage acting as well. So between that, a little voice acting, a little podcasting, competitive public speaking and poetry, and oral interpretation like that. Just about every way you can use your voice for fun or profit, I've done. And most recently, all of that has sort of coalesced into the-- I guess what I'd call the 2020 expression of Lucas's artistic journey-- with the Making a Monster podcast.

[00:02:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Okay. So it's all come together. So you share with us about you're Making a Monster podcast, if you don't mind.

[00:02:12] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. And that's, yeah, it's not terribly specific. The Making a Monster is a podcast I started. It's my quarantine project. And it's one of those things that has taken on more of a life than I ever thought it would. So the show looks at tabletop role-playing games, which is a whole section of art and entertainment that might, might stand out quite a bit from the, from the other guests that you've had on the show. But I think it brings together a lot of what art is and does, and how, how art intersects with people. My angle on that was, I wanted to make that, that world accessible to people who aren't interested in the hobby, especially people who wouldn't necessarily have watched "Star Wars" or " Lord of the Rings," or be at all interested in that kind of sword and sorcery genre of fantasy. So I looked at it one monster at a time.

[00:03:07] I'm able to get ahold of people who do design work, sort of the backend and mechanical design for games like that. And I asked them about a monster of their choice. I never tell them which monster to bring on, and I rarely know what monster they're going to choose until we get on to record. And then we pick it apart. So I want to know what this monster is whether it's like a kind of a Hydra, or I think a good example-- I had a, a 10 Story Robots on one episode. I've got an upcoming episode with a teleporting alien dog that's just there to cause havoc. So it really runs the gamut of everything that you might find in, in fiction and heroic fantasy and all that sort of thing, goes along with tabletop role-playing games. But when you strip out the setting of it and get through to the mechanics, you find something really interesting.

[00:03:56] And that is a whole field of literary analysis called monster studies, which looks at the way we have encoded culture into the things that we fear into the stories that we tell about the things that we don't know or should be afraid of. So that's what Making a Monster does is take a look at these monsters that really, you wouldn't think this holds up to academic scrutiny or kind of a deep moral analysis, but they always do. And that's the heart and soul of the show.

[00:04:26]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow, how fascinating. I mean, I love it. I have not dabbled too much in that particular world, but it's fascinating to me. And I mean, I grew up watching "Star Wars," and "Lord of the Rings," and all those good things. So I definitely have an appreciation for it, but I haven't done the gaming aspect of it. So this is so interesting. So, okay. So I'm just so curious. I was really intrigued by the idea that makes complete sense, thinking about it in terms of, you know, the psychology sort of behind it, but yeah, are there any particular examples that stand out as when you kind of dove deeper you, you recognized something unique?

[00:05:09] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. Probably the best example or, or I think the moment I knew it was going to be more than just sort of a "chill, we happen to have the same hobby" kind of podcast was when I started talking to someone about Dagon and I should, I should preface this conversation by saying that we're going to get into kind of the deep lore. And there's, there's a lot that might not tie this to the average listener, but what I hope, what I hope to kind of bring out of this all is that Dungeons and Dragons and tabletop role-playing games are kind of a new home for art and artistic expression. I believe that art needs an audience and that the best audience is often other artists.

[00:05:54] So games like this tend to gather artists together at the table, artists of all different stripes, people who value a wide variety of different ways of expressing themselves and being together at the table. And when you put them all together, they tend to do some really interesting things because we get some of that reward. Some of that immediate feedback that you would have from an audience, it's the same thing that's embodied and applause, this, this sort of give and take of improv theater and fine arts and visual arts or artistic design and storytelling. And I knew all of that going in, but the thing that, that made me realize there was this other dimension to it of truth and the way that we tell it to each other, it was when I started interviewing a guest about Dagon.

[00:06:38] So Dagon, the way he wrote it was a sort of demon prince of one of the many, many layers of hell in the certain setting of this game that we were playing. And I thought that was enough. But it had come to that game as so many things due from the works of HP Lovecraft, who's notorious for having invented the genre of cosmic horror, and a lot of great work is being done in that. And it's becoming more and more mainstream. It was a primary feature of " Stranger Things." Several shows on Netflix, "Lovecraft Country" on HBO-- a lot of people are playing in this space and bringing Lovecraft's work into, to new and better ways of looking at truth and literature and design.

[00:07:20] And I thought that was it. We did this whole interview that connected Dungeons and Dragons to Lovecraft, and I was satisfied. And then I put it on the internet and the hive- mind of the internet, of course, showed me things that I had missed. And it turns out the Dagon is not just the name of a story that Lovecraft wrote. In fact, his first story that he had published, it's also the name of an ancient Palestinian deity. Now I have some work to do. Yeah. I had to find someone who was both interested in Dungeons and Dragons and was willing to talk to me, and also was able to sort of connect the dots on ancient Canaanite religion. And that Venn diagram is very slim. But I gotten connected to a friend and he was able to show me how Dagon had sort of appeared over and over again in time. He's in several places in the Bible, one of which most remarkably I think was in Jonah where he's never mentioned by name, but he is the god that was worshiped, we know from archeology, at the city of Nineveh.

[00:08:24]And that connects him back through a lot of various ways to the way in which Israel would look at their god is a God of order and Dagon then was the God of the Philistines and was therefore a God of chaos and he was tied to the sea. So it's interesting that you say "dove deeper," 'cause that was really what happened and that sort of battle of chaos against law where a monster would come up out of the sea and be defeated by, by law and order, and Shalom is a motif, is a theme, that's repeated all the way from Genesis to Revelation. So it's about as old as a story can be. And I just found it lying around in a tabletop role-playing game.

[00:09:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That story is fascinating. It's so cool. I love it. I love that, you know, like you were saying, this motif, this theme has been around forever. Well, maybe not quite forever, but just so you know, for a really long, a long time and the idea of people taking the essence of it and bringing it into what's now a game. But it still has significance and history behind it. That's really interesting.

[00:09:35]Lucas Zellers: Yeah. Even more so now, because we all have a handle on it. It took me forever and I, I don't think I would have engaged with Dagon and all of the themes and meanings that he has along with him that go back to some of the stories that account for the creation of the world. If I hadn't had this other sort of handle to hang on it or to, to hold it with-- if I hadn't been introduced to the concept and the name in this other way. So, so that kind of work is happening all the time in Dungeons and Dragons and the tabletop role- playing space where people are really starting to think very strongly about what makes a villain and what makes a hero, and whether that should be how we should understand that. And whether our understanding of that should change from what it was in say 1974, when the game was introduced. So there's a lot of excellent work that's being done in terms of the way that we express truth to each other. And I think that's the, that's the province of really good art.

[00:10:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And you had mentioned, you said it in a really particular way, which I am now not recalling-- but I'm sure you will-- about, you know, one of the things that's been interesting to you is discovering the way that we tell truth to each other or something along those lines that I get that kind of thing. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd love to learn a little bit more about what you mean by that, because I think that's a really interesting concept.

[00:11:01] Lucas Zellers: Sure. I think one of the ways in which this sort of taught me about truth and the way we tell it to each other was the interview that I released as the very first episode. So I did a batch of them. I did about six interviews before I launched the podcast because I wanted to make sure it would work. It wasn't the first interview I recorded, but it was the first one I released. It was about a game called "Jiangshi: Blood in the Banquet Hall," which was a remarkable little game that went through the, the Kickstarter. It was launched on Kickstarter where so many board games and role-playing games are these days. It's a game that was written by a team of American immigrants. And it focused on-- the, the setting of it is in 1920s, Chinatown, which I think was in San Francisco. And there are several other immigrant communities represented in the game as well.

[00:11:51] The titular monster, the Jiangshi, is a Chinese hopping vampire. And you'll find the aversion of the zombie in just about every culture across the world. A zombie or a vampire, we've been telling that same story to each other in many, many different ways. But this one is, it's about, so in this part, telling a vampire will feed, not on a person's blood directly, but on a person's life force, right? Or what the designer called chi, soul, if you will, being able to draw that directly out of them. And the, that story and the setting and the way the mechanics of the game work all work together to represent that drain as a drain of identity or cultural heritage or memory. So that this monster is taking all of those things out of you until you become sort of a gray featureless personality- less person that is in fact also as Jiangshi. And it's a great way of talking about cultural eraser. A lot of the things that were happening in sort of the, the San Francisco Chinatown phenomenon in the 1920s were represented really, really well by the work that she was doing. And I don't think I would ever be able to represent well in conversation, the experience of a Chinese American immigrant in 1920s, or even the experience of the descendant of a Chinese American immigrant in 2020. But I can say too, but we could play this game together. And I might ask, is racism a zombie though? And you would know exactly what I was talking about.

[00:13:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So the, kind of the idea of people expressing truth and their own experience, their own truth through a game, which provokes this conversation. And so that's what is so cool about all of these experiences and these people that you're interacting with it sounds like. Did I get that about right, yeah?

[00:13:59] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, and art picks up where words leave off many times, where or sort of in a loop with them. I think you, you'd be able to speak to this as well that dance expresses emotion in ways that other art forms can't. So when you go through this experience of playing Jiangshi, these truths stick in a way that they wouldn't if you had encountered them in any other way. It's why I remember Dagon fondly, not just as sort of an artifact in a museum, but as something that's a part of my personal experience and growth as a human being who understands the other human beings in the world. The same version, if I'd been able to play that game, you know, it becomes a part of my own experience becomes richer in my memory and imagination than it ever otherwise would have been.

[00:14:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And one of the things that I think is so amazing about art is that it can open up conversations that would otherwise be very difficult to have. But when these themes and these issues are expressed through art, sometimes that's a gentler way of opening up these conversations that should be happening, but are, are difficult, you know, rightly so. And so I think that that's just such a cool avenue for just starting the conversation that that should take place. Yeah. So cool. Well, I love that. And, okay, so obviously I need to listen to your podcasts because it sounds fascinating. I'm just so intrigued.

[00:15:29]Lucas Zellers: I spend quite a bit of crunch time on it or what the gamers will call crunch. So there's, there's a, there's a big portion of this that's of the podcast-- it's not gonna make sense unless you've played this game or that game. And I hope that that's not an obstacle to you, partly because I think that's another way of coding truth. So, you know, the, the level of like assigning a numerical value to the thing that this monster is, or does is an art form all unto itself. So that is a part of it, but don't let it scare you. And also if you're not playing these games, it's not what it was in 1974 or 1985 or 1999. It has a very different identity than it ever has. I think it's for more people than it ever was. I think it's smarter than it ever was. And I think it's way more beautiful than it ever was. So my hope is that while you're listening to the podcast, any sort of preconceptions that you have about role-playing games and the people who play them, you'll be able to sort of leave those at the door and discover something new.

[00:16:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I like that. Very good. Very good. Well, I'd also love to explore your writing a little bit, because I know that you also do that. So do you mind sharing a little bit about your experience writing and maybe what you write about?

[00:16:44] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So Making a Monster is one of several projects that I've launched through Scintilla Studio. It's kind of my incubator. I, I built it so that I don't have to set up a separate website for everything I want to try. For a while there, I was a blogger when I thought that was still kind of the, be all end all of internet discourse. In 2018, I, I put out an album, just an EP of four songs that I recorded with some friends, all originals, which was a fascinating experience. And I do little things like that all the time. And I needed to have a place for them. So they all kind of live on scintilla.studio, Making a Monster being kind of the newest project. But the thing that ties them together is, is something else that, that sort of became obvious when I was doing the podcast. I've learned enough about that field of literary analysis called monster studies to know that one of them, the basic assumptions of that is that the monster's body is a cultural body.

[00:17:42] In other words, the monster is a product of the culture that tells it, it carries with it, all of the, the values and associations that that culture has. It's why Godzilla happened in Japan. Or, or why the jackalope happened in America on the frontier or, or John Bunyan or, or the Oz stories that are sort of uniquely American fantasy. I, I believe that that language of an ecosystem of idea and, and culture where, where stories and arts are, are kind of a species that evolve and change over time, and fit the ecosystem that they grew up in. I think that applies to creativity as well. So the kind of conceit of Scintilla that kinda pins all those ideas together is that creativity is an ecosystem. You have to build a habitat for it. Find, fill a place in your life, both your physical space and your routine for that art to live. And then you have to give it the resources that it requires, whether that's time or energy or consumables, or just attention. And then you have to protect it from poachers because there are things that are going to come into that creative ecosystem that have a right to be there. You have to make food and raise your household and sometimes take a shower. Like there are things that have a claim on those resources, but there are also things that don't, and you need to cut them out. You need to be serious with yourself about what you're allowing to grow in this sort of creative ecosystem.

[00:19:15]So step three of four then is to kind of push the snowball. I think art for most people is, not like you said, this sort of one-off thing where you might experience it as the recital or the show or the finished piece where behind that is just thousands and thousands of hours of unfinished recitals and failures and attempts and sketches. So art is not the kind of thing that you do, and then you are done. It's the kind of thing that you push and make incremental progress as if you're pushing a snowball. So you build on your past successes and experience and then finally recycle. Because I believe that's important to every ecosystem, but I don't think art is ever wasted. If you finish a project and it is not as successful as you would have liked it to be or it didn't achieve the goal that you thought, it's never wasted effort. Because all of that comes back to you. It's an expression of who you are or who you were at the time, if nothing else. So a lot of the projects that are on Scintilla are things that I might never revisit or that didn't grow in the way that I hoped they would.

[00:20:21]But they all became the compost in which I'm growing other art, the same as all of these stories that we've inherited over time, the rich loam of storytellers before us sort of laid down by time and culture that, that proceeded us in the way that Dagon did. So, yeah. Scintilla is kind of this meditation on the way art is done by the common man and sort of a handbook for the way you can do it in a way that's fulfilling and sustainable.

[00:20:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. And I just really appreciated your description. I think it's so important, you know, as an artist, to not trash all your previous attempts at things, even though you might look back and cringe sometimes. I mean, we all do that, of course, but I love what you were saying about like, but it was your best at the time and, and people, and we grow and we change and we learn and we, we evolve, but it's not bad. It's just like you said. And even if you really think it was garbage, like you said, that's still compost for future things to grow. I love that. Oh my goodness. I'm going to definitely adapt that, and you know, use that with my students when I teach them the idea that nothing is ever wasted.

[00:21:41] Lucas Zellers: It's so freeing. You look back at pictures of yourself and you cringe. And I, I have a lot of charity for my past self and I wish other people would too, ' cause it's who you were and it, it also gives you this kind of beautiful motivation to be the best you can be right now. And if you're making art in that way, you never have to be ashamed of it.

[00:22:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's beautiful. I talk with my students sometimes, and just in general, with people about, you know, your job is to do your best every day, but your best looks different every day. So, you know, some days it's when things are tough, it's getting out of bed and taking a shower. And that was your best for the day. And that's okay, you know. And other days you're going to have these bursts of creativity and the energy. And so your best of the day might be creating this fantastic painting, but that's not, you know, necessarily even realistic for every day. So it's just do your best every day. And then, give yourself the grace that not every day will look the same, I guess.

[00:22:44] Lucas Zellers: Maybe a more typical example is that you've caught me on what I think of as a good voice day. Like my voice sounds good right now. It's, it's early afternoon on a Saturday and I like the way my voice sounds. That's not always true. Certain days, some days it's a raspy broken down tenor that I'm kind of sad to be carrying around, but that's particularly the voice, which is so sensitive to the way you treat every aspect of your body. It really reflects who you are at the time. Yeah. To know that. And then watch your voice change day by day and hour. It sort of helps you realize that you're not just, you know, one person and you're not finished. And just because you weren't good now or then doesn't mean that you're not good now. \

[00:23:29]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yes. Perfect perspective. Okay. So good. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's so encouraging and I think that's so encouraging for artists who might be struggling, you know, some days and to realizing, to give themselves grace and, and it's, it's okay.

[00:23:48] Lucas Zellers: Because every voice is valuable and no voice deserves to be lost. And I hope that by giving people a way of eliminating that divide between themselves and an artist, that more voices will grow and that people will be more charitable to themselves and, you know, not paint over their own paintings or slash their canvas or, or whatever.

[00:24:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I had a professor in college who used to say that you were allowed to throw your pointe shoes in the trash every day, as long as the next day you would come back, pick them out and I liked that. Yeah. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of that. I just love your perspective on art and the way that you're sharing it in such a unique way. So thank you for all of that. Thank you for just being that kind of blessing to the world. I really like what you're doing and I value it. Thank you.

[00:24:42] Lucas Zellers: Thank you for saying so, and thank you for taking a chance on the D&D guy on this particular podcast.

[00:24:47]Lindsey Dinneen: No, of course, like I was sharing with you before the show, I just love art in general. So I'm happy to talk about it in any new way or anyway, anytime. Well, so if our listeners are interested in connecting with you, listening to your podcasts, reading some of your work, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:25:09] Lucas Zellers: Absolutely. Best place to go is to my website. It's scintilla.studio. That's S C I N T I L L A.studio. If you're looking for the podcast, you can tack on "slash monster" to the end or you can search for Making a Monster, literally, wherever you get your podcasts. I think I'm on 20 platforms and counting. Most recent addition was Pandora and I was very proud to be on Pandora. So I'm everywhere you want to be.

[00:25:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay, fantastic. Well, we will definitely be doing that. And if it's okay with you, I ask the same three questions to all of my guests. Are you up for that?

[00:25:48] Lucas Zellers: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:57] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. So for a while, I tried to come up with, with my own definition of this and I was sort of laboring under the impression that a definition that I hadn't written wasn't authentic. But I found one that I really liked. Elaine de Baton wrote this in his book," The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work." He said, "art is anything that points our thoughts in important yet neglected directions."

[00:26:21]Lindsey Dinneen: All right. I love that. Never heard anything quite like that. Thank you for sharing that quote, that fantastic.

[00:26:30]Lucas Zellers: It's incredibly useful to me because it doesn't say what art is, so much as what art does. And I think that's a more important way of defining it.

[00:26:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Perfect. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:49] Lucas Zellers: If we use the same definition, then the role of an artist is to tell us what to think about. And I think my experience with monsters and the study of them and sort of the practical use of monster theory is that art gives us a way of saying things that we couldn't say, or feeling things that we couldn't feel or experiencing things that we had no other way to experience.

[00:27:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or just the inspiration for it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out and doesn't provide context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide for themselves.

[00:27:54]Lucas Zellers: Yeah, it's a great question. And I think the answer is frustratingly the same as the answer is always, it depends. I want there to be art that does not hold my hand, but demands of me the attention and intensity to discover its meaning. But for the most part, I think that art should be inclusive of context at least because of the art that I'm trying to make. So a huge portion of what makes my podcast work. And the reason that I have it is that I have to go back and pick up the scattered pieces of context that are left like a trail of breadcrumbs through time by given pieces of art, by given stories that have traveled across out of their own context and into others and out of their own time and into new ones. And that investigative process is incredibly rewarding. I think there's a lot of risk when you don't make that stuff obvious to people, 'cause then you have to have someone like me come back and pick up the pieces and lay them out for you and show you sort of the journey of Dagon over time or the identity of a Jiangshi. And that's a different kind of art. Like if I have to show you that alongside the actual artistic experience, those are two different things. So it depends, but for the most part and for the art that I want to make, I think it should be inclusive.

[00:29:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Good. Perfect answer. Not that there's a wrong answer. I think it's all subjective, but yeah, but I really like that answer.

[00:29:34] Lucas Zellers: Yeah. It's one of those dilemmas that you've set up that it's kind of a false dilemma in that these two are not mutually exclusive nor is there a right answer between them.

[00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly, exactly. And the whole idea behind the question is just to see what people think. So, and you're right. They're not mutually exclusive, but it's, it's fun to hear different perspectives on that 'cause, you know, just like art, there are lots of opinions as to where context is really important and where it's not needed. And I like your idea of you want some art to be demanding of you, that you you really explore it and you think about it for yourself. So yeah, I really liked your answer. That was great. Well, thank you so very much for being here today, Lucas. I just really appreciate your time and your sharing your stories, and I'm excited to check out your podcast. I highly recommend that anyone listening to this episode does so too, and yeah, just, just thanks again. I really appreciate it. And if anyone is interested in sharing this episode with a friend or two, of course, I would love that. And thank you and have the most amazing day.

[00:30:54]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:04]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Jeffrey Holst! Jeff is a life coach for all creative types, and thrives on helping artists monetize their art to create a sustainable living. In this episode, he shares about a journey to find himself through art that took him around the world and back again. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is the logo of the Last Life Ever podcast!)

Get in touch with Jeffrey Holst: https://linktr.ee/Jeffholst | https://www.instagram.com/jeffreyholst/

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Episode 46 - Jeffrey Holst

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello. And welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Jeffrey Holst. He's a real estate investor, a recovering attorney, and a podcaster. And I just can't wait to hear all about your background, Jeffrey, and all the different stories that you have to share. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:58] Jeffrey Holst: No, no problem, Lindsey. I appreciate you having me on. It's, it's exciting to be here. So I, I appreciate that.

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I do definitely have to ask about your background, especially because recovering attorney is part of it. So I would love to hear a little bit about, you know, just your own journey and maybe how you became a podcaster because that's, that is an art form in and of itself too.

[00:01:23] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, no, you know, I don't always think of it as art, but I do two different shows and it is, it's a lot of work. And then there requires us to think very carefully about how we're presenting everything. So it does seem like art in a lot of ways. I don't think it's significantly different than than any kind of performance- based art. But yeah, so I practice law. I, I mean, I, I started started practicing law in 2007 and I did it because I wanted to make money. I didn't do it because I loved it. And that's why I'm a recovering attorney. Now I recognized that, you know, you need to do things that you love and enjoy with your life. And so that's how I got out of law, but there's a, sort of a long story about how I ended up where I'm at that I'm happy to share with you, if you have the time for that. So.

[00:02:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Yeah.

[00:02:09] Jeffrey Holst: So the short version of the long story --how's that --is that I, I was going to community college. I was in my third year of a two-year program because I really had no idea what I wanted to do. And, yeah, I was sitting in this, a history class and they were talking about the Renaissance and they were talking about Michelangelo in particular and I remember this so clearly too. It's amazing how impactful this one event was the professor was talking about this Michelangelo sculpture, the Moses, that was supposed to be the centerpiece to Pope Julian the Second's tomb and Michelangelo was commissioned by the Vatican to produce this marble sculpture. And, and they, when he finished it, they were having this unveiling and the Pope was there and, you know, all sorts of dignitaries are there and they pull the sheet off of it or whatever, and he's kind of down on his haunches and he just stares at it and he doesn't say anything. Just awkward silence. And everyone's looking at him and looking at the sculpture.

[00:03:08] And finally one of his students is like, "You know, you have to say something," and he takes a chisel and he throws it full force at the sculpture. And he says a single word "Move." Because he was so passionate about this sculpture that he thought it would literally get up and move. It's just a chunk of rock, right? But I mean, at the same time it was, it's incredible. The sculpture-- there are parts in the marble where the robe of Moses is so thin that you can shine a light through it. I mean, it's just, I mean, it's incredible sculpture. And I would argue probably the best of all of Michelangelo's sculptures, which is saying something because he has quite a few sculptures that are considered the best in the world, right? The David and the Dying Slave-- those are all amazing sculptures, but, but Moses to me, it's something extra and you have to remember to like, to kind of lose your mind in front of the Pope, back in the Renaissance, that's like-- there's no one today alive, you know, you could say the President of the United States or something, but there's no one as important as the Pope was in the Renaissance. 'Cause there was like a combination of world leader, spiritual leader, emperor, you know, I mean basically completely in control of everything going on. So until like, freak out in front of the Pope is like crazy.

[00:04:25] And I was sitting there in this class, listening to this story, thinking there is nothing in my life that I'm that passionate about, that I would like throw a chisel and scream in front of the President. And I just kind of went, I got to figure this out. Like I need to do something better, more interesting. I just need to solve this. So I, I mean, it was the second semester of my third year and I didn't really need to keep going to community college because I had plenty of credits. So I just kind of went, yeah, I'm going to take a year off and I'm going to go to Europe and I'm going to figure this stuff out. And so I took my income tax refund, which was about $3,000 and I called up 1-800-PRICELINE. This is before the internet version of Priceline. And I got a plane ticket to London for like $300. And, and I, and the most they would give you at that time on Priceline was a 30- day return ticket. So I just, "Well, I'm going to go for 30 days to London."

[00:05:18] And I knew that the Moses was in Rome and my main purpose was to see that, but I wanted to make it like a quest. Like I find myself, you know, I don't know. I, since I was a young kid, right. I was 21. I don't know. I thought I was, that these grand plans of, of you know, traveling around the world and discovering like this, you know, great secret. It was almost like an Indiana Jones type thing for me. I'm going to go explore the world. And I did, and I had a great time. I mean, I spent about two and a half weeks between England and France and Spain, and then finally made my way over to Italy and I went to Rome. Oh, I saw the Coliseum. And then I climbed this little hill up behind the Coliseum to this church called the San Pedro in Vincoli or something like that. It, it basically St. Peter in Chains and you walk into this church and it's a small church and it was under construction at the time that I was there. They were recently cleaning the facade or something. And so there's scaffolding up in front of it. So it wasn't very impressive from the outside.

[00:06:16] And you walk in there and there's this altar in the middle of the entry almost that's got this box in it and the inside the box or some chains that are supposedly the, the chains that, that St. Peter was wearing at the time that he was released from, from jail, by the angels. And so that's what the church has dedicated to. And I'm looking around this church and it's a pretty small. And I don't see this sculpture anywhere. And this is like way before smartphones. And like my guidebook said it was there and I'm like, "Where's this thing, you know, I'm looking for it." And I'm walking around and I see in the corner of this, like shadowy, like dark corner of the church, that there's something that might be the sculpture. And I'm like, "Well, this is going to be really disappointing 'cause I can't even see it." And I'm thinking all the construction's blocking the light or something and I go over there and there's a little box and you drop-- at the time it was like a thousand Lira coin-- I'm sure it's like euros or something now, but you dropped Lira coin in this box.

[00:07:09] And then it turns on the light to light up the sculpture. So it's like an old- school box. It's like chunk chunk. And then it's like, you know, like it's like a scene from a movie and I'm like, "This is the moment. Right? This is the point when I'm going to solve everything." Cause remember, I'd say that's the whole reason I'm in Europe. I'm wondering, I've never been out of the US before, except for, I went to Canada a few times as a child. But I'd never been to Europe. I'd never been in a place where they didn't speak English. Here I am in Rome, by myself you know, with a backpack on staring at this thing, that's going to solve everything for me. And I was like, eh, I can't really, I was looking at the Moses and I was like, it's impressive, but I still don't know what I want to do. So I walked outside and I sat down on the front steps of this church and I was looking down at the Coliseum and I thought, "I like seeing old stuff. I like seeing art."

[00:08:02] I'm just going to go make some money. And that's how I decided to become a lawyer. I want to go. My dad was a lawyer and he, he made good money. So I went, I "I'm going to go be a lawyer and I'll make good money and I can travel the world and look at art and old things." So I made a little list in my head-- the pyramids, Machu Picchu in Peru. Oh, Petra in Jordan. You know, all these ancient sites that I wanted to see, there's a few other things on the list, but I mean, I made this list and then I did. I just wanted to, I went to law school and, you know, I got married and I took my wife back to Paris and Rome, and we went to the Louvre and we went and saw the Moses again. I was still impressed by it, but still didn't feel like it solved my, you know, my life's purpose question, this like, big grand thing. And my life was okay. I mean, it was fine, was it was. It wasn't bad, but I made good money, started practicing law, started my own law firm. Went to Egypt. I went to Petra and Jordan and finally went down to Peru, to Machu Picchu.

[00:08:56] And that's an amazing place. The, the ancient Incan city on top of a mountain. I mean, that's art in and of itself. Like some of these archeological sites are some of the most amazing art. I mean, if you go to Egypt and see, you know, hieroglyphics and painted tombs and giant pyramids, I mean, that stuff is just --it's mind- blowing the impact that that stuff can have on you. But I went and saw this Machu Picchu, and I was like, "Wow." And I realized when I was sitting there looking down at it, right around sunrise, looking down from the top of the mountain to the city. And I was thinking, "I just finished my bucket list. Sorry, I just, I'm done now. What do I do?" Right? Like I'd made this list 10 years prior when I was in Rome the first time. And I I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I climbed off the mountain and I checked my voicemail. And this attorney that worked for me quit via voicemail, said he was giving the two weeks' notice and I only had one other attorney myself and him.

[00:09:52] And I thought, "Well, I'll deal with that when I get home." And when I got home, I was diagnosed with leukemia. And I wasn't able to go back to work and yeah, ended up bankrupt. And I was like, "Man, life's super short and I've done a lot of cool stuff, but I still don't have any idea what I want to do with my life." And I figured right then and there, if I survived, I needed to figure out a way to make sure, well, two things: one, that money would keep coming in, even after I was unable to work because I didn't know if I'd be able to go back to work or whatever. So that's how I got into it real estate. And, you know, in retrospect that, you know, getting sick was probably the, the greatest thing that ever what happened to me because it got me to quit practicing law. It got me to become a recovering attorney and it got me to find that real person passion and the real passion for me is just helping people live the best possible version of their life. And so that's what I do now.

[00:10:48] You know, I'm a full-time real estate investor. I'm fortunate that seven years after filing bankruptcy, I was able to quit my job and not have to work anymore. Some of that was just really good timing, right? I got sick in 2008. I got bankrupt in 2010 and I started real estate investing in 2011 at the bottom of the market. People who follow the real estate market know it's up a lot since then. So I've been very lucky in that regard. But we've also, you know, put in a lot of work and we spent a lot of time building a portfolio that that takes care of our daily needs and, and it's, it's pretty amazing actually.

[00:11:22] Lindsey Dinneen: So. Wow, what a story. I love that. And I also was just really chuckling to myself about the expectation that maybe seeing the Moses would be this like transformative. I know all the secrets to the universe now. I love that.

[00:11:39] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah. I mean, that's really how it felt. And when I went back to see it later, I actually appreciated it much more because it didn't have as much pressure on it, right? It's not fair to any sculpture or any piece of art or really any show or any, anything to assume it's going to change everything. If you think that going into something, you're going to be disappointed. Your show is amazing as you know, but if someone just goes into your show and goes, "Hey, if I listened to this episode with Jeff Holst, my whole life's going to change." They're not going to be, they're going to be disappointed. I know this for sure. On the other hand, if you go into stuff and you just appreciate it for what it is, you can really get a lot of benefit from stuff. And then that's the thing about art. I mean for me, like some of the things that I've seen in the world-- the Nazca Lines are that. I didn't have any pre-exposure to them.

[00:12:28] I really didn't know much about them. I just write about them and thought it sounded cool. Then Nazca Lines are giant petroglyphs. They're, you know, rock carvings that are so large that you can only see them from the air. And they are thousands of years old. They make no sense. Like who makes rock carving so you can only see it from the air 5,000 years ago? I mean, why would you make that? Like, what would be the point of making it right since you can't even identify them from the ground and they're clearly manmade, they're like hummingbirds and spiders, and there's a guy that looks like an astronaut, which is really curious, right? Like, it's like, why? Like, like what are they doing? Like, this is like a little guy with like two legs, two arms and a helmet on. This makes sense. So, but, but seeing that. That was unbelief. I mean, it's just, it's, it can change your whole perspective. It's like, well, what's going on there. And, and I felt that way, honestly, about some of the stuff.

[00:13:22] It's weird what stuff impacts you. You know, there's things like, you know, the, the Mona Lisa it's, it's cool to see because it's like, you know, it's the Mona Lisa, but, but it didn't like change my life, but then, you know, there's other times I've seen stuff that I wasn't expecting at all, like stuff that I didn't even think I would love. And I'd be like, "Whoa, this is amazing." And sometimes it's, you know, famous artists. Sometimes it's not. I mean, Salvador Dali really did that for me. I went to the Salvador Dali Museum in St. Petersburg, Florida a few years ago. And I always was like, "Well, he's okay. I mean, it's not really my style, but now I'm like, I love Salvador Dali. After going there, I even went out and bought myself a Salvador Dali, you know, signed limited edition. 'Cause I was like, I just know I got to have this in my life."

[00:14:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and then I'd love that your approach of going in with an open mind and just letting the experience be what it is for you instead of coming at it with a preconceived idea of what it should be or what it could be, and then maybe, you know, setting yourself up for disappointment. And that makes complete sense to me. And I love, I love that open-minded approach. Yeah. And just I'm sure, just time has contributed to that time and wisdom, but yeah, that's, that's great. Well, first of all, you were such an overcomer and your story is very inspiring. So thank you for sharing that with us down to the, all the, the details. I really appreciate that. And I also was curious, because I know you obviously do the real estate investing, which is fantastic, but then you're also a podcaster and you have two shows. I would love if you'd share a little bit about maybe how those came about and maybe what they're about too.

[00:15:01] Jeffrey Holst: Sure. So they're completely different. The first show that I'd started a couple of years ago, it's called Old- Fashioned Real Estate. And what, what happened is we decided we were going to start raising some money from individuals to buy bigger deals. And we thought, well, if we're talking to people about raising money, it would be cool if they Googled us, they would find us talking about real estate. So we just made a show on YouTube and we didn't know what we were doing. And the first couple of episodes are just recorded with my cell phone on a box, you know. Like it's just, you know, we've improved it over the years, but show is kind of a cheeky in a way, because what we do is we drink bourbon old- fashioned. So we just get drunk and talk about real estate investing. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. We've really enjoyed that. And we've gotten some reasonable traction. I mean, it's not something that's going to ever make us super famous, but it's opened up a lot of opportunities for me, which is one of the best parts about podcasting is the people you meet. You know, I've interviewed people on there and most of the time we don't even interview people. That's actually just myself and my partner talking about real estate because we like to do it live and in person. But after coronavirus happened, we started doing more interview shows, 'cause you know, we couldn't go out and like, hang out together for awhile.

[00:16:15] And and so we just, we just were like, "Well, I guess we're gonna, you know, do some zoom stuff or whatever." And we started doing that and and it's, it's been really amazing that people that we've gotten on the show and people we've met that are just do really cool and interesting things in that field. And then also like when I was able to go out and network and stuff, it was just really great. Like people, you know, it gives, it sets you apart a little bit having a show. So when you meet someone and they're like, "Oh, you're the person with the show." And then they start watching your show and then they feel like they know you and they really do kind of get to know you, 'cause there's a lot of this media is very personality based. It's a lot of it is, you know, whether you like the person that you're listening to or not. If you don't like them, then you're not going to watch them, listen to their show or watch their show. And so that's the first show.

[00:16:59] The second show came a year or so later, and it's called Last Life Ever. And this is a by-product of me getting leukemia. Really. It's about recognizing that, you know, life is short, even if you don't get leukemia. I mean, I thought I was going to die for the first month or so. I expected not to live more than three or four months. And when you have that kind of perspective shift, it causes you to think, you know, I don't really like practicing law. I need to do something else, right? Well, it would have been very easy if I hadn't gotten sick to still be an attorney now, make decent money. Like it wasn't that bad. I didn't hate it. In fact, I was pretty happy, but I didn't have any, any fulfillment in my life. And when I started getting into real estate and the freedom that that bought me when I quit working in 2017, I kind of went, "You know, this is a pretty good life."

[00:17:50] Like I need to be doing something to help people get to the situation where they can choose how they, they want to spend their time. It's not about not working because I still work. I do things like podcasting and real estate investing and all that. But I started the real estate show to help people be able to real estate invest in and after a while, I started to realize that there's more to life than just being a real estate investor, it turns out, and I wanted to help people have bigger dreams and do things that that would benefit them and live really what we always say is, live the best possible version of their lives. Recognizing that it is their last life ever, that they're only get this one chance, you know, you gotta make someday today because if you don't someday may never come.

[00:18:35] And so we do that kind of stuff and we interview people that are during interesting and fun things. We interviewed people like Broadway musicians and sometimes artists or art gallery owners. But, but also people-- like we interviewed a reality television star who won season two of the, of "Alone," where he spent 62 days living by himself in the wilderness. And, and, and outlasted the rest of the people that were in different places in the wilderness, you know, I'm just like crazy stuff like that. And then what these people do and how their mindset is. I mean, we've interviewed like TJ Miller the comedian and just talk to him about you know, he does and how he got into it and how he thinks. And I mean, that kind of stuff. It's like, you start to recognize that, you know, people doing these extraordinary things, whatever they are, but they're just people like the rest of us. And if we can help people be inspired by that, that's, that's really the goal of the show. And, and, you know, there's an element of charity. We have a foundation that we started and there is an element of, you know, training and stuff like that. But, but at its core, it's really just about the mindset of, of, of going for your personal dreams, whatever those are.

[00:19:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. That's so cool. I can't wait to subscribe and start listening to that because I think that's so important. And, yeah, what cool people that you've gotten to talk to! I really think that's awesome.

[00:19:56] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, it's been so fun. And like I said, too, it's some of these people I consider friends now. I mean, I interviewed this guy, Vinney Chopra is his name. We interviewed him on both shows. He's a real estate investor, but he also has this thing, like a smile philosophy. He just smiles all the time. People call him Mr. Smiles. That's how much he smiles. And he's just so positive and so happy. And he has this book, "Positivity Makes Profitability" and he was coming out with that book and we were like, "Yeah, I want to interview him for the last life ever show." So I talked to him twice and then he had me on his show. And then pretty soon he's like texting me and each of these stories so cool. The guy comes-- he's Indian-- and he comes to the United States at like 20 years old, with $7 in his pocket. And now he's in his early sixties and he has 4,000 apartment units or something crazy like that. And he just attributes the whole thing to mindset. It's like, you just gotta be nice and friendly all the time and everything works out for you. And I was like, this is so awesome just to meet people like that and then have them text you and be like, "Hey, next time I'm in Chattanooga, well, let's get together and have dinner or something." You know, it's just really weird how normal people are when you actually get to know them.

[00:21:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Yes. I talk about this quite a bit on the, on this podcast, but you know, just talking about how sometimes we have these ideas of-- for, for instance, because we're talking about art, you know, we have this ideas of artists being these like really glamorous, you know, people with these glamorous lives and, and, you know, that's, that's 1% of the time and the other 99% of the time is hard work and literally scrubbing floors and, and all that, you know, hilarious, fun stuff. And so yeah, I like, I like that perspective, you know, we're all human and we were all trying to live, you know, our best, most inspired lives. But you know, sometimes that looks like just doing a thorough cleaning of something. It it's 99% work.

[00:21:50] Jeffrey Holst: Right. I agree with that completely. That's true of everything. I mean, putting together a podcast, you know, most of the work happens offline. It doesn't happen when we're just chatting, right? This is, this is the fun part, right? What we're doing right now. And, and then that's the, that's the way it is with every kind of art and anything that you're doing. Even if it's not art, the part that looks exciting, like if you're a lawyer and you know, I love being in trial, like that was fun. But, you know, getting ready for trial, that was a lot of work, you know, it just wasn't a lot of work. And I didn't like doing that work and, and, you know, so the thing is like, you can be satisfied with what you're accomplishing and that's okay if you're very passionate about the work that you're doing, then it's easy to put in the hard work to get ready for it. But it's not easy if you don't love what you're doing.

[00:22:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And I think that is such an important distinction. I recently finished reading "Big Magic" by Elizabeth Gilbert, which I highly, highly recommend to everyone.

[00:22:50] Jeffrey Holst: Wait, by Elizabeth Gilbert? Isn't she the love... "Eat, Pray, Love" lady?

[00:22:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, she is. And she wrote a book about overcoming fear as a creator.

[00:23:01] Jeffrey Holst: That's great.

[00:23:01] Lindsey Dinneen: As a creative, and it's brilliant.

[00:23:04] Jeffrey Holst: She wrote a really interesting book about marriage and relationships too, actually, I read a few years ago. I think I got on Audible or something. I really liked her. I'd liked that movie so much 'cause it's, it speaks to me when people are just following their passion, that's like, that's my thing. Right? That's what I want people to do. So I was like, I love this. I need to read it. So I didn't know this new book that you're talking about. I'll have to check it out.

[00:23:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and she talks a lot about, you know, no matter what you choose in life, there are going to be elements that you are really not going to like. And that, that suck, frankly. And so you have to decide what you're willing to put up with, because every single thing has its own set of problems or frustrations or whatever, you have to decide which ones are going to be worth it because you're so passionate about what you're doing. So basically there's no way to avoid that. I seriously think it's such a misnomer when people talk about, "Oh, you know, when you find a job you love, you'll never have to work a day in your life." I think that's pretty ridiculous.

[00:24:03] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah. That's, that's it's nonsense.

[00:24:06] Lindsey Dinneen: It's nonsense.

[00:24:07] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, that bothers me. Actually, I hear people say that stuff all the time and I'm like, "No, the secret to being really happy in life honestly, is in my opinion, figuring out how to buy your time back as soon as you possibly can, like figure out what you can do to make sure that you don't ever have to go to a job you don't like, right? Because if you build a business or you make investments or whatever it is to get your basics covered, then you have the freedom to play. And that's where you really get to enjoy your life is when you can play. Like if you had an unlimited amount of money, would you still dance? And the answer is yes, of course you would, but would you do everything that you do? Probably not, right? And so I'm not there. I don't have an unlimited amount of money, but I feel like if you can get to the point where you have your basics covered, then you get a lot more freedom to do the stuff that's important to you."

[00:25:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I totally agree. Absolutely. So I'm curious, 'cause you mentioned, you know, realizing now back in the day that you had sort of accomplished your, your bucket list dream. So I'm curious, what are your new bucket list dreams? If you don't mind sharing?

[00:25:20] Jeffrey Holst: I don't have a bucket list currently. I, I reject the term "bucket list." Probably it's just an overly technical issue, but you know, I completed my bucket list and then like two weeks later, I was in the hospital dying and I thought to myself, "One, don't ever finish your bucket list. That's a terrible idea because you're going to get leukemia and die. And two, you know, obviously that's not true, but that's what it felt like at the time, right? And the second thing was like, you know, the idea of a bucket list is, is wrong in a way." So I have a life list now, things that I would love to do, but I don't feel like I have to check them off. They're just things that would be really cool if I did them. And so it's less defined than what a bucket list traditionally is. But there's a lot of stuff on it. Like I think of new stuff all the time. I'll have a book that I'm about done writing. I'd like to get that published. That's, that's up there. I want to build out our charitable arm a lot more. We have a foundation where we help people with sort of like micro grants. Like we've paid rent for people a few times, or we paid for tuition for a seven year old child in Tanzania.

[00:26:25]Yeah, so like, it's just like, you know, where a small amount of money can make a big impact in someone's life. That's, that's one of the things that we're really passionate about. And I just gotta keep like living an interesting life. Like that's, that's really my goal. So last year in February, so just over a year ago now, I spent the entire month in Africa. That was good timing too, ' cause you know, we haven't been able to travel since, but I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro and I went on a Serengeti Safari and saw the Willdabeast migration, you know, firsthand. And then also like went in and met up with people running charities and school for a school for disabled people in Ethiopia. And, you know, so just want to keep doing stuff like that. Like, I mean, I could list stuff, but it doesn't really matter. I have one goal that's, I call it my 50/50/50/7 goal and that's 50 states, 50 countries, seven continents before I turned 50. That's like a goal of mine to do those. Well, on the way I've got my 50 states in, I'm at like 39 countries.

[00:27:24]And I've got a trip booked to Antarctica. That'll be my seventh continent scheduled for next January. So like 10 months from now. And this year I was like, you know what, if we can start traveling again, I'm going to ramp up my goal and try to finish my 50/50/50/7 goal when I get to Antarctica. So I want to go to 11 countries this year. That'd be really cool 'cause then I'd get, you know, I get my goal done. I'm not sure that'll happen 'cause I can't control the pandemic, but it looks like we're getting closer to opening up. So hopefully.

[00:27:55]Lindsey Dinneen: That is awesome. And I have to say, I am so incredibly jealous of your trip to Antarctica, because that would also be my seventh continent. So it's my goal to get there too. Oh my gosh. Yes.

[00:28:07] Jeffrey Holst: The crazy thing about Antarctica is that I don't know hardly anyone that's been there 'cause it's sort of hard to get there, as you know. But when I was in Australia a few years ago, I met this couple that had been to 150 countries and Australia was their seventh continent. And I said, "Wow, you went to Antarctica like that. Must've been interesting." And they're like, "Yeah, it was our favorite place that we've ever been." And that same reaction from everyone I know that goes to Antarctica. They all say, "Oh yeah, it's the best place we ever traveled." And the thing about that is like people who go to Antarctica are pretty well-traveled, right? Because I don't know very many people that have been to Antarctica, but the ones that I have have been a lot of places. Like just the other day, I interviewed on Last Life Ever, this guy, Lee Abbamonte, who is the youngest person in the world to have traveled to every country recognized by the UN and the North and South Pole, right?

[00:29:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:29:01]Jeffrey Holst: Like he's 36 and he's literally been everywhere in the world. I mean, that's a pretty, you know, impressive run of travel, right? And the weird part is he didn't start traveling until he was 22. So in 14 years, he went everywhere in the world and in the world. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. And I mean, that was a fascinating interview and like, people should check it out, 'cause that guy's just amazing. Like, even if you don't check out my interview with him, just go Google him and find his interviews with other people because he's just a fascinating guy. It's like I was saying about, you know, podcasting and meeting people. That's I want to keep doing that, 'cause like now, like I have Lee Abbamonte's cell phone number and I can text him and be like, "Hey, give me some advice on whatever, you know, like when I go to Antarctica, what should I do?" So that's what I did.

[00:29:45] And, and just the other day we interviewed this lady, Heather Moyse, who is an Olympic gold medalist in the bobsled two time, bobsledding gold medalist, right? And she's a Canadian gold medalist. And she sent me a copy of her book and has been texting me like, "Hey, have you read it yet? I can't, I can't wait to hear what you think of it. "And it's just crazy to be like, having conversations with people that are just doing all these really crazy things. And she also has been to Antarctica, and which is a weird coincidence now that I think of it because she actually was telling me, "Oh, I'm so jealous that you climbed mountain Kilimanjaro. That must've been really hard. The only kind of climbing I've ever done is I once climbed the highest mountain in Antarctica." I was like, what? Like, how can that be that's way harder than climbing Kilimanjaro, which by the way is very difficult. It's not a joke, but you know, 30, 40,000 people a year climb Kilimanjaro. Only a handful of people have ever climbed the highest mountain in Antarctica. It's just a little bit of a different kind of level.

[00:30:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes, that is a very intimidating undertaking to me. So kudos.

[00:30:56] Jeffrey Holst: She did it for a veteran's charity, actually. So it was to raise money and awareness to people that were suffering post-traumatic injuries. And so it's like an awesome cause and they raised a bunch of money and, you know, helped a lot of people out. So I get why she did it, but she was like, it was really hard. It was really cold. It was also amazing. And I'm like exactly how I felt about Kilimanjaro: really hard, really cold and also amazing. So yeah.

[00:31:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Love it. Perfect. Well, obviously you interview some really, really amazing people. So how can our audience find your podcasts and, or follow your journey? Obviously, you're going to be hopefully publishing this book here soon too. So for anyone who kind of wants to keep up with you, how can they do that?

[00:31:41] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, I mean, so I'm pretty active on Instagram. It's just at Jeffrey Holst so people can follow me there for sure. But we have a Last Life Ever private Facebook group. It's just literally Last Life Ever Private Group is the name of it. We're very creative like that. And people can join that group is the best possible way to stay in touch with me because people in that group, that's where I hang out. That's my passion. And then of course they can follow my, you know, the shows on all the podcasting apps and YouTube and all that. So Last Life Ever and Old-Fashioned Real Estate, both available everywhere that podcasts are.

[00:32:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. And now, oh yeah, for sure. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:32:26] Jeffrey Holst: What if I said no? Has anyone said no?

[00:32:28] Lindsey Dinneen: No one's said no, but I mean, I wouldn't want them to feel like they couldn't.

[00:32:33] Jeffrey Holst: Yeah, I know. I just always think like, it's totally tangential, but I always feel like when people ask you, like, if you're okay with that, they really mean you are okay with this... right? I am okay with it. So go ahead.

[00:32:47]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, good. I mean, it would be breaking with tradition if you were like, "No, I really don't want to be asking." But I would respect that too, so, oh, my word. Okay. So the first question is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:33:03] Jeffrey Holst: Wow. That's a big question. So for me, art is, is any kind of creative endeavor that's that allows the creator to express themselves.

[00:33:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Concise, and I love it. Okay. And then, secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:33:24]Jeffrey Holst: I think that artists bring perspective to everything. If we didn't have artists, our world would be very boring. So I think perspective and entertainment are probably the two things that are most important.

[00:33:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Okay. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and who provides some context behind that, whether it's the inspiration or program notes or a title. Versus an artist who is exclusive and puts their work out there, but doesn't include context behind it, so it's left solely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.

[00:34:15] Jeffrey Holst: So I don't know that there's really a right answer to that. Like I think that different artists have different reasons for what they're doing. And I think like art is really like an expression of whatever the creator is, the artist is wanting to do. So I'm not sure that there's really a right answer. I much prefer things that do have a little bit of explanation behind it. I interviewed David Liebow is his artist's name, but so Liebow is a sort of post-modern cartoon artist, right? Like he's a Miami muralist, that sort of made big, right? Not super big, but big enough that he's, you know, painted like cruise ships and stuff like that, right? And in, in, in liquor bottles, I think he did a whole run for Absolute and like stuff like this, right? So, so he's kind of like a, you know, pop art slash you know, a little bit of other stuff. And I asked him something along those exact lines, like I said, "Well, what does this mean? Like this, this piece of art that you have, and it had words on it, right? Like, I, I mean, it's, it has has words, but it didn't seem to connect to me." And he's like, "Thinking about art is that art is whatever the viewer takes from it. That's what matters." And so, well, he did give some context by giving it titles, right. And putting some words into his art. He also wants people to interpret it however they feel comfortable with it. And I thought that's maybe the right balance somewhere in between. Right. You give a little bit of context, but you leave a lot of it open to interpretation.

[00:35:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the perfect way to describe that balance. Absolutely. Very cool. Well, thank you so very much for being here, Jeff. I really, really appreciate your time and wow. Your stories are so cool and inspiring, and I just love how you obviously love and appreciate art and what it's meant to you. So thank you so much again for being here and sharing those stories with us. I really appreciate it.

[00:36:16] Jeffrey Holst: Oh, thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed coming on and I feel like I could talk about art and like my life as much as you wanted. So, you know, if you get bored sometime, you can always give me a call.

[00:36:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Yeah, like I was sharing with you before I can talk all art all day with anybody. I love it. So. Well, thank you again, and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. Please make sure that you go and listen to some of Jeff's podcast episodes, subscribe to what he's doing, maybe check out that Facebook group so you can kind of stay in the loop too. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am after listening to this, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:37:06] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:15]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Christina Stanton! Christina is an award-winning author, professional singer, and licensed New York City tour guide. She shares her incredibly powerful story of how watching a musical was the catalyst to start healing after experiencing the 9/11 attacks firsthand changed her life forever. (Fun fact: the cover image of this week's episode is the cover of Christina's book about her experience on 9/11 and its aftermath.)

Get in touch with Christina Stanton: https://christinaraystanton.com/

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Episode 45 - Christina Stanton

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host post Lindsey, and I am so excited to introduce as my guest today, Christina Stanton. She is a licensed New York City tour guide, the owner of a nonprofit, and the author of a book about 9/11. And currently she's also working on a book about her experiences as a tour guide. And I am so very thrilled to have you here today. Thank you for being here, Christina.

[00:01:00] Christina Stanton: Hey, good morning!

[00:01:03]Lindsey Dinneen: And I would love if you would just share a little bit maybe about your background and how you got started into all the cool things that you're doing, if you don't mind sharing a little bit.

[00:01:15] Christina Stanton: So I'm from Tallahassee, Florida, and born and raised. And I moved to New York city when I was 23 in 1993. So that tells you how old I am, but I moved there to be an actress. And I got a degree in music. I was a singer and my voice really fit fast on like the Broadway stage. And so I moved to New York to try my luck in becoming a Broadway actress and I loved it from the get-go. Just, I love the, the artistic community. I loved fellow actors. I love the whole process of auditioning and rehearsing and performing, and I love New York City. So it was such a great fit for me. I think actually, if I weren't a performer, I would have never moved to New York City and I would've, I would have missed out because that place is pretty much perfect from me and my, and my temperament and my personality.

[00:02:06] So moved there, 1993, and I did that for about 10 years. And after I got married in 2000, actually I started kind of transitioning out of that and exploring some other parts of myself, which was-- I was exploring my faith, to tell you the truth. And I, we, we got very very involved in a house of worship. I also became a licensed New York City tour guide and I, I did that actually in 1995 kind of as a-- to help pay the bills, right? Between acting gigs, which is what we all do up there, right? So I decided I'm a New York City tour guide. And I ended up, when I was transitioning out of acting, becoming top heavy in that industry, because I love tourism.

[00:02:50] And mainly it's because I'd fallen in love with New York. So I myself wanted to be kinda like roll out the red carpet for tourists in a way that I felt like when I moved up to New York, because I was still seeing New York as a tourist myself since I wasn't born and raised there. And so I still do that to this day and still love it. And I kind of went from performing to seeing every show and concert that I could. And I've, I think I've seen up to 500 shows and live theater events in New York City ever since I moved there. So I'm a big aficionado of, of live theater. And I spend a lot of time going to see shows.

[00:03:32] So yeah, that's, that's kind of me, my husband and I live in the financial district and we've lived in the same apartment for 20 years, which is kind of unheard of in the city. And yeah, we just, we just enjoy our lives and just kind of do our thing. And I have a lot of friends and yeah, the, the pandemic was a blip on the screen and that's what I'm hoping it will be is-- it's, it's changed us all. It's, it's been awful, but I'm hoping that, you know, soon there's a light at the end of the tunnel that we can all just kind of put this behind us, and, and go back to, to our lives. But I have to say, I think probably everybody noticed the, the lack of, of art or maybe they have a new appreciation for art because it was so lacking this past year. So I bet, I bet a lot of people have been thinking about the role art plays in their lives because we were so challenged to get that in our daily lives, you know, this past year in the pandemic. So it's taken on definitely a new, a new meaning.

[00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that it's, it's so interesting how, how much art plays a daily role in our lives. And sometimes it kind of goes unnoticed a little bit. We, we don't think about the fact that, you know, everything that we're surrounded by was designed by artists, right? I mean, even a piece of furniture was designed by an artist. I mean, it's, that's that thought it's all art and it's so fun to kind of see those moments and realize, oh, yeah, our whole world is art. I love it.

[00:05:03] Christina Stanton: It really is. So I guess we've had to find it in different ways and this past year, but I, I, myself am, am excited about seeing live theater again, even though, I mean, I love seeing "Hamilton" and, and "The Prom" and other things that, that were available to us this past year, or just live theater is, is kind of my thing.

[00:05:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. There's nothing like it. I mean, it's fantastic that there are now very cool, you know, movie adaptations of musicals and things like that. But the thrill of being there and hearing the music and, "Oh man, I can't wait."

[00:05:37] Christina Stanton: Audience, you know, having people around you who appreciate art, like you do, it's almost like this, this built-in camaraderie, this built-in kind of community. You don't even know who's sitting next to you, but you have that in common. So it's very relational.

[00:05:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Christina, I know you have a really, really specific story that you had in mind as far as sharing with us about the impact that art has had on your life. I would love if you want to dive in.

[00:06:07] Christina Stanton: Sure, sure. Well, I have to back up a little bit because my story does revolve around 9/11 and I, I won't go too much into, let's say our firsthand account, I'll just-- highlights would, would be that essentially my husband and I lived right next to the World Trade Center complex during the, right before the attacks. And we actually just moved in July the seventh, but we live six blocks away from the World Trade Center complex. And I was very familiar with the Twin Towers and the Observatory and the buildings and the shops, mainly because I'm a tour guide. I would have been a tour guide and was taking tourists on walking tours around the World Trade Center comp complex for years, you know, before the attack.

[00:06:49] So I already had kind of my own relationship with with the complex as a tour guide. And that was double because we lived right next to it. So during the attacks, and we lived on the 24th floor and we lived so close to the buildings that when, when the second plane went in, we were so close that the shock waves from that plane going into that building actually blew us back into our apartment. We had this wonderful 300 square foot terrace that overlooked the complex. So literally it blew us back into our apartment, knocked us out on the floor. I talk more about that in my book, if it sounds so spectacular to hear, hear these things, but but yeah, so blew us back, yeah, knocked us out. My hearing's never been the same. It, it just, it really, really affected us. We had to evacuate our building and we sought refuge in nearby Battery Park. But as it turns out that area, it wasn't safe at all. When the Twin Towers came down, they covered us with the dust and debris and there was actually very thick smoke from the towers that threatened to fixate us.

[00:07:58] It was, it was a horrible, life-threatening, very scary morning, so to speak. We were evacuated by a boat to New Jersey in the largest boat evacuation in history. I'm not sure if you've heard of that, but, but all these people started pooling by the coastline because we all felt trapped down there in Battery Park and the Coast Guard issued a radio call saying, "Hey, if anybody owns a boat that can hold anybody, go onto the coastline, pick people up. And drop them off at different places. We've got to get people away from, from the destruction and the danger." So we were evacuated to New Jersey and essentially we didn't get back into our apartment until the next January. So at any rate, so it was this, it was this crazy --I mean, the story that I, you know, for us, it kind of 9/11 went on and on, right?

[00:08:52] So for instance, my husband lost a very good Clemson fraternity brother in the attacks and that put him in just a real depression. Our dog clung to life for weeks after that, because he, he was covered with the dust of the buildings. He was trying to lick himself clean. There was ground up glass in that dust, which shredded his insides. So we took him to the vet and literally clung to life for, for a while after that. So our dog was sick. We were homeless. My husband's friend had died and, you know, we just have, to tell the truth, we had PTSD. So it just kind of went on it, you know, like I said, being homeless was its own trauma. We've never had that experience before. And so by the time like May of the next year rolled around, we were back in our apartment and we were kind of navigating, you know, life and the new normal. I still wasn't working because I'm in tourism and, you know, no tourists were coming because there were still worries about the attacks.

[00:09:57] The United States had entered Operation Enduring Freedom at war. So people were staying away. I was still out of work. My husband was still, we were still struggling, right? Even the next May. And so I had read about, you know, I love live theater, go to live theater all the time. I had read about my favorite show, one of my favorite shows it's called "On on the Island." A nonprofit called Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS was putting on a one day event of the show. It was two shows in one day, May the 12th, 2002. And it was the original cast from when it was on Broadway in 1990. And I was like, " I'm going, you know, I, I need to see live theater. It's my favorite show." I don't know if it's coming back to Broadway anytime soon. I need a break. I need a mental break. I need to get out of my head. I need to be around things that I love and remind me that there's good in the world because I was still struggling to think that, "wow. I felt like somebody had tried to kill me."

[00:10:59] My whole worldview was so shaken at that point. And so we went to see this, this show that was really a fundraiser is what it was. And it was a staged reading. There was no set or costumes or anything like that, but it was the original cast. I just wanted a mental break and it just really changed me seeing the show. It had a huge impact and effect on me. I mean it achieved what I wanted it to do, but in a bigger way than I even expected.

[00:11:29]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that is a tremendously powerful story. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, wow. So, you know, you said that it, it changed you. Was that kind of a catalyst for being able to, to move forward, so to speak?

[00:11:50] Christina Stanton: Well, it really was because, if you know, or if any of your listeners know anything about the show "Once on this Island," it's a very basic and simple tale of a peasant girl who falls in love with a guy outside of her class. And, it actually has a beautiful ending and it's, it's just a simple-- there's, there's no flying chandeliers or helicopters within the show. It's, it's just one simple set and it's just beautiful singing. And it's a sweet story set on a Caribbean Island, which makes you feel like you're transported far away. One of the main reasons why it was effective and healing me from, from that cesspool, that turmoil I was on at the time is because the lead girl is an actress, she's still performing now, named LaChanze. So LaChanze was one of these, you know, when I moved to New York, I was all into the theater scene and I knew who was starring on Broadway. And LaChanze was a major star, still is, but she was at, you know, the height and the early mid -nineties when I moved to New York.

[00:12:59] So everything was about LaChanze and she was, she was starring in it. And so I was a huge fan, already huge fan of hers, but unfortunately had a terrible story of 9/11. She was one of these people who got married a little later in life. She had a baby and she was pregnant with her second child during September 11th attacks and her husband died in 9/11. New husband had waited a long time to be married to him, I think. And he died. And one of the towers he actually was working for Cantor Fitzgerald, which was the company that lost the most people in 9/11. I think they lost 658 employees and Calvin Gooding was one of them. And I knew that the whole theater community knew that, that LaChanze, his husband died, leaving her pregnant with her second child.

[00:13:53] And, I remember, we all thought it was just horrifying, just awful. It's the worst circumstances because, you know what? The theater community is small and we all care about each other and it's, it's a real, it's a real community. So she had starred in this show and when it came out on Broadway and 1990, 1991, and she was starring again at this two- performance only show. It was a fundraiser in 2002. So I wanted to go and hear this. Love the music, love the show, but I wanted to see LaChanze, you know, I wanted to support her. It was my way of supporting her, but also I just kind of felt like, even though she doesn't know me, that in a way we kind of had somewhat of a shared experience-- I mean hers in such a bigger way than myself, I could never relate to the loss that she has suffered, but I definitely felt like my heart blood for her. And so I went to see her and, and against the other show and to watch those actors go through the show and try to get through it, because essentially there's some very sad moments in the show. They cried their way through it, which made the whole audience go crazy.

[00:15:06] Everybody there knew what had happened. Everybody there in the audience knew what had happened to LaChanze and her husband, because people who go to these kinds of fundraisers, it's kind of like an insider thing to do. You know what I'm saying? So it was really an audience filled with actors or like extreme theater lovers, and everyone knew what had happened. So literally people were on their feet the entire performance because everybody's heart was bleeding for LaChanze, bleeding for the city, bleeding for the actors who were on the verge of tears throughout the entire show. And it just created an electric atmosphere because everybody was in on it. Everybody knew what this was and everybody was upset. And also everybody was so encouraging , to the cast.

[00:15:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds like an incredible experience and yeah, the comradery, like you were saying of sitting next to people who understand and have similar experiences or even just, they can be empathic with what's happening and the way that things are being portrayed. That sounds really like, you kind of said, sort of life-transforming. Wow.

[00:16:21]Christina Stanton: You knew you were seeing something special once in a lifetime, that this would never be repeated because of this very special circumstances. So everybody was just electric. And there was nobody in that theater that had a dry eye, nobody. At the end, there was a standing ovation for 10 minutes. I am imagining how long the show at the end of the day took. And just because, you know, and people would be yelling, "you got this," or "we love you," as the actors would go down during the show, meaning they would start crying, then people would be screaming. I mean, you never hear that during a normal performance. You don't, you don't hear people say, " we love you," you know, so this isn't a spectator. But people really felt honestly with them and instead of, let's say us being entertained or taken away from our lives for a moment, we were literally with them, journeying with them too, to make it through, right? But also, because there's a lot of sad moments. Whenever there was a very poignant line in a song, everybody would be crying. We'd be crying because it took on a whole different meaning in the context of you know, the nation just, just had the worst terrorism on American soil, you know apart from Pearl Harbor.

[00:17:44] I remember there was one point, I was crying so hard. My husband was to the left of me. I remember there was a guy, some random guy to the right of me. He was freaking out a little bit because I was crying so hard. I mean, everybody was crying, but I, I had another level to it and he was looking at me like, are you going to survive this show, those releases, you know, just have like it was just one of the few times that I broke down because I'm not much, I'm not too much of a crier. I don't wear my heart on my sleeve all the time, but I was really breaking down because it was, it was a release, you know, it was this shared communal experience of mourning at the show, and it just really caused me to break down and, and there was something very comforting being in the midst of these beautiful people in this beautiful show. And it was like we were collectively mourning and it was just, it was a game changer for me. It was something I needed and I kinda needed to have that breakdown. And, you know, I felt different after I left that show, I felt that life is going to go on. My worldview doesn't need to completely change because of the attacks, but there's a lot of love and a lot of support and a lot of care in this world from a lot of people.

[00:19:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is a perfect example of the power of art and the way that it, it doesn't just transform or, or work in the lives of those who are performing the art or doing the art. It can literally change somebody's life through an experience in just watching it or participating in some way, reading it, whatever. That is amazing. The power of the arts to heal and to inspire and to provoke is, I mean, I don't think I've heard a better example of that in my life because that's just perfect. Yeah. Wow. Well, goodness. Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I'm so glad that you were able to have that experience and all of those people were able to have that, like you said, once in a lifetime experience, that's transformative.

[00:19:57] Christina Stanton: Yeah. I think I said earlier that I think I've seen up to about 500 different live theater events and there's three or four that stick out, that was super special and never will be repeated. And I'm so glad I went. And, that's definitely at the top and I've often wanted to tell LaChanze that how much that meant to me and I did a little article about it and it has made the rounds and I'm glad. I'm just hoping that maybe she'll stumble on it and, and realize that it did it, did people good to see that? I know that was hard to go through. It did a lot of good, I have seen her perform since then. And I've seen "Once on this Island" again, it actually came to Broadway again in 2017 and I saw two performances of that and I still loved it for sure. But nothing will top that particular night.

[00:20:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course that well, and kudos to you also for, for sharing that experience too, and encouraging the \actors involved because I'm sure you've experienced this too sometimes-- you're not quite sure how much what you do might matter, or that it does matter to other people as well. And so I think that's really special that you were able to share that experience and say, you know, essentially "thank you" because we acknowledged that that was hard, but thank you. So, yeah. Okay. So then, you know, since then, you've obviously also written and published a book about your experience, how was it writing that? I mean, that must have been just-- digging through all those memories.

[00:21:39]Christina Stanton: It was hard to plow through and relive those things until I-- this is ironic-- and so I caught COVID. We're almost exactly a year ago. I believe I caught COVID on March 14th in New York City and it almost killed me. As a matter of fact, I was hospitalized twice. It was, it was bad. And I wrote a book about that too. So I'm guessing there that there's clearly a theme going on that writing is cathartic for me and helps me to process, but I did, it was painful to write about 9/11. But I had a a real drive and motivation to write about it because, you know, there's been like over 700 books written about 9/11, but a lot of them, when I was going down the list, I've read most of them. So a lot of them are terrorist or terrorism. Or maybe about the World Trade Center complex and the Twin Towers, or maybe the planes.

[00:22:31] And certainly those are, those are important stories to tell for sure. But I haven't heard many from a voice perspective of somebody who lived in the neighborhood and experienced it from from a resident's perspective of living through that and going back to the neighborhood and trying to resume and the new normal that it has had its own challenges. I'd seen articles about it. So I just thought to tell you truth that I wanted to add, add my voice to that. And it was a fresh perspective, so yeah, and also wanted to highlight what I learned personally through it, you know, but you know, the, the pre 9/11 was a different person than the post 9/11, and I can and I really drew on a lot of what I learned during the COVID time. It really affected how I dealt with that tragedy and what I learned through 9/11. So yeah, so the pre- pandemic was kind of the same as the post- pandemic because of what I had learned from 9/11.

[00:23:28] So I talk about just yeah, life lessons that I learned through it. And, you know, we, we were new in our marriage. I was, I think, 32 years old, 31 or, oh, I turned 32, September 22nd, which was, you know, just a few days after the attacks. But so we were, we were newly weds. We were, we were married only a year and a half. And so we were having such a hard time navigating a new marriage, but also, you know, seeing each other in that kind of extreme circumstance. And so by the time, you know, the "Once on this Island" rolled around the next May. We were still kind of locked in our own battle and our own internal battle that we were fighting. And you know, we emerged from that much stronger and that's one of the, the good aspects to come out of 9/11 for us. But yeah, so wasn't easy writing that book, but it was cathartic and, and I'm kinda glad that I get, again, that perspective, because it was a story that wasn't out there, so, yeah.

[00:24:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then now you're writing another book, but I hear this one is going to be a little bit of a different theme.

[00:24:38] Christina Stanton: No more. We're done with this. Yeah. So I've been a tour guide for so many years, just when you're dealing with tourist and large groups and groups of all demographics and age ranges. And just New York being New York, lots of crazy stuff has happened. And I have one of these people that have this, this memory. I remember everything. And if you're-- I'm a freelancer, if you freelance and let's say an incident happens, like the company really wants to know, what happened? So if, if like the tourists complain, they have a heads- up of what the situation happened? So, so I have incident reports. Crazy things happen all the time. It's a crazy city, New York City. And so I wanted to protect myself by writing out, you know, my version of abundance. And so I barely have to write. It's pretty much already written. I was going to call it "A Collection of Incident Reports," but instead I think I'll do "Confessions of a New York City Guide." It's funny. It's funny shenanigans. It's a fun romp through New York City and crazy tour guiding stories.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my gosh. I love it. I cannot wait to read that. Well, and on that note if our listeners want to connect with you or purchase your books and things like that, is there a way for them to be able to do that?

[00:26:02] Christina Stanton: Yeah, my website is christinaraystanton.com. And that's all my information of the books and my upcoming book and articles I've written and, yeah.

[00:26:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Woo. So excited. Well, and then I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:26:23] Christina Stanton: Yeah.

[00:26:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. So the first one is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:26:32]Christina Stanton: All right. So I think art helps us understand and appreciate and navigate life. I mean, it is life, but art bleeds over into every section of our lives and it just helps us through life. And you know, personally ,the most joy and love and sadness, the strongest emotions I feel, is through art. I'm pretty straight as an arrow and and other places in my life. But nothing makes me feel the human experience more than art does.

[00:27:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:18]Christina Stanton: It's to tell their truth, because we all are having such different experiences in this world that what you want is that somebody is expressing your experience somewhere in art, doing something. And you just want to connect with art that's expressing your particular experience that you're having on this planet and is sharing your human experience. And so I just think artists should be telling their truth of how they're viewing the world and their experience, because there's going to be people out there that can relate and want to relate and want that comradery, and wants somebody to quote unquote, "understand them," but I just feel like it's a shared experience. So it's a story that, that can be shared with several people. We're not all having the same experience, but there are people out there who are having, you know, the same struggles, and the same highs and lows and joys. And they're looking at life in the world and God, and in the same way, do you want to connect to art that is speaking to you personally.

[00:28:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yup. I love that perspective. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that -- inclusive, referring to an artist who puts their work out there and includes some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration behind it, something, so you kind of know a little bit about what the artist had in mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't share context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to interpret.

[00:29:06] Christina Stanton: Hm, actually I appreciate inclusive because I think I need a little help sometimes understanding the inspiration behind a piece of art, and I may not be able to relate to it or even agree with it. But I, I feel like I, I like to understand the artist's intent and the message, and then I can, if I want to peel off and create my own narrative around it, I'll do that. But no, I like to, I want to know what their inspiration is. I want to know what sparked the piece of art.

[00:29:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Makes complete sense. Well, perfect Christina, thank you so very much for being my guest today. Your story is so fantastic and inspirational, and I'm so honored that you shared it with us and that you're sharing it with the world and, and expressing this moment that was transformative, and I just really appreciate you being here and sharing. So thank you so much and being on the show. I really appreciate it. And definitely if you're listening to this episode, please go check out her website, go buy those books and continue following her journey because obviously Christina is a marvelous person with lots of stories to share and somebody definitely to be inspired by because, gosh, you've been through some things and you're just coming out so strong and so resilient. And so just kudos to you and I can't wait to continue to see what you do and to follow your journey too. So thank you again so much. And thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:11] Do you have a story to share with us? We would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:20]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzalez' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique, so cool that is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-iving.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Harlem Lennox again! Harlem is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative. This episode is part two of a two-part series because Harlem has so much insight to share! She shares about finding your unique voice, the musical that allowed her to envision herself as an actress, and her specific advice for young, aspiring artists. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Harlem herself!)

Get in touch with Harlem Lennox: www.harlemlennox.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

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Episode 44 - Harlem Lennox (Part 2)

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12]Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. Just a quick reminder that this is part two of a two- part series with Harlem Lennox. I am so excited to continue this conversation with her today. So if you haven't already listened to part one, I would highly encourage you to go back, listen to last week's episode first, and then jump on back to this episode because Harlem is fantastic and has so many wonderful things to share. And without further ado, part two.

[00:01:00] So I'm curious. Are there any particular stories or experiences that you've had that have kind of stood out to you as just meaningful moments that you want to hold on to, as it relates to art?

[00:01:14]Harlem Lennox: Yes. So I've got a bunch and I'm sorting through them in my head. One experience I can say with art that was incredibly meaningful for me was when I saw "The Wiz" for the first time, I did not see it in person. I actually saw it on the TV and it's basically-- I don't know if everybody is familiar with "The Wiz"-- also, please if you're not, see it. You have to. It is a retelling of" The Wizard of Oz," but it had an all black cast. And I remember watching it as a child and I had grown up in like-- of course I had my family and stuff like that-- but outside of that I had grown up around people and artists who were mostly white. And so it was one of those things where it was just confirmation that I could do this too. Like, this is available to me as well. And it's crazy that I just didn't connect the two because of the fact that a lot of the different artists that I was around, that I actually saw in everyday life didn't necessarily look like me. And so when I saw that and saw them dancing, heard the music, it was one of the most fascinating experiences I've ever had just because it was like, not only can I do this-- and it was crazy-- one of the characters that was in the movie actually looked like my mom.

[00:02:56] And so I was obsessed with that. It was Lena Horne and I was obsessed with her for a very long time, ' cause she looked like my mom and it was just-- I watched it over and over and over again. And it was one of those moments where I could not understand how they were able to accomplish that. It wasn't just the way they looked. It was the art itself. Like how are these people able to come together and do these dances? How long did they have to practice? And it gave me a huge admiration for the work that goes into art. I think a lot of people look at the art itself, but me, I also get really, really hung up on, how much work did you have to put into doing all of those different things? And that's kind of where it started, where I'm watching these people. I'm like, "what did it take to pull off that number?" Like how many times did they have to practice to make it sound like that? And it kind of just snowballed from there where I would learn, you know, I'd go to the art museum and I'd see a Van Gogh.

[00:04:13] And I'm just like how many times he had to paint to get him to where he is today? And I think that's where the work that goes into goes into it, and the behind the scenes that happens, that's where that started when I watched "The Wiz," because I think before that I just looked at everything. It's like, "Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, that's so great. Like, Oh, wow. That's, that's a fascinating piece." But for some reason, I guess I connected with that movie, "The Wiz," on a whole 'nother level. And it just completely opened my mind to the fact that not only is this beautiful art, but there, there are a lot of little pieces that went into it. And I don't think I understood that until that moment.

[00:05:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my goodness. I love that. And I love that perspective because I think you're right. A lot of times we'll just enjoy the finished product and not-- I mean, maybe subconsciously we kind of have a slight awareness of what it takes to do something like that-- but I love that your brain was working in that way. What did it take to get there? I think that is just so cool ' cause the behind- the- scenes are what-- you know, that's 99% of the time spent on any production. And then the 1% is the final product. And I love your perspective about the paintings and how many did it take? Oh, that's so cool.

[00:05:43]Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. I do that with dancers a lot. I have a friend of mine who is also a dancer. She's a ballerina. And because of the fact that I was with her through her journey and saw her progression, it was just, I think it makes art that much more amazing when you realize, and really, really like connect with how much went into that. Like, she didn't just start off, you know what is it? Is it called pointe? Like when you're on your... yes, she didn't just start off doing that. And then when she told me she was like, "You know, I'm used to it now, but at first it was so painful and it was like the most..." And I'm just like how, like, you must've loved it so much to actually be able to stick with it. See, and now that I'm talking about dancers, I want to ask you like a thousand questions about your dance career. But yeah, that's kind of when I look at art, it's, it's almost like I look at the painting and I see it for what it is, but I also look beyond the painting and that makes me fall in love with it a thousand times, the more I learn about it. So, yeah.

[00:06:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, it's a fantastic story. Yes. And you know, it's so funny, you were mentioning your friend and her experience with starting pointe and, you know, it's funny because I don't remember this-- I only remember my mom's retelling of this-- but apparently I just remember being so excited to finally--' cause you, you earn it right? You get to a place where you're strong enough that you can go on pointe, and it's a big deal. And I was so excited for my first class and apparently afterwards I came and I sort of just plopped down next to my mom and said, "I don't think I'll ever be a dancer." Not true. I obviously made a full career out of it, but it's so funny because you know, that first experience was really rough.

[00:07:38]Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. The passion you must've had to stick with it. That's so crazy.

[00:07:46] Lindsey Dinneen: I know, such a learning curve. And I know everybody has those moments. I'm sure even, you know, you've had those moments as an actor or something where you just, you get to a point where like, "Oh, this was frustrating." But then, you know, you love it. So you come back.

[00:08:00] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Definitely. I've definitely experienced that where it's like, no, this is horrible. I will never be, you know, whoever the famous person is that's doing really well at the particular time that I'm talking about this. Like I'll never be that person. And then you're just like, take a breath and get right back into it. Especially if you love it, just get right back into it. But yeah, I've definitely had those moments. My daughter is actually starting ballet. And she had a moment like that, because the person that she admires that kind of got her started on it was Misty Copeland. And because she's like, "Oh my gosh, she looks like me." And so I realized my whole family has had moments like that where it's like, "Oh my gosh, I could do it too, because this person looks like me." But I remember telling her when she was getting a little discouraged, she had a moment and I said, "You're not working to be Misty Copeland. You're working to be you. You're not supposed to be the next Misty Copeland. This is your story." And yeah, she could be your hero and stuff, but you're working to be the next you, and I cannot wait to see what that dancer does, because the person you're becoming is going to be so amazing in the story that you're going to have to tell. It's not going to be her story. It's going to be yours. So go ahead and have your moment. But remember you're not her. You're you. And so work to be that person. I cannot wait to see what you become, and the story that you have to tell when you get to that point and she was like, "Wait a minute. Somebody can make books about me."

[00:09:38]Lindsey Dinneen: That's beautiful. What a perfect response. I'm like sitting here going, "Okay. Don't tear up." It's just so beautiful. I was serious. I just, I love that. You're right. Yes. Look up to those that you admire in your art form. Look up to them, but be you. Yeah. And how special to be able to share that with her too, you know, and encourage her, even at a, at a young age of just, it's her own journey. And her own journey will be unique and it will be special and it will be hers. And that's perfect. That's beautiful.

[00:10:11] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Yeah. That's super important to me. That's one of the other reasons why I wanted to start the podcast because I want people to realize that, you know, you don't have to be the next, whoever it is. Like we need you in particular, like your voice, your whatever it is that you're bringing to the art world is so important and so valuable. Like, yeah, you could admire all these different people and yes, they did great things, but they brought something beautiful to the art world that we never had before. And you're going to do the same thing. If you keep working hard and you know, doing what you need to do. And we need it, like we need you in particular. So your art, whatever it is you are bringing. And I really wish that people understood that, that goes along with the whole thing about we're not trying to take other people's place where we're just adding to the gumbo pot. I am Creole. And so it's like, we're adding to the gumbo.

[00:11:17] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that.

[00:11:18]Harlem Lennox: The different spices and stuff like that and everything you act just makes it better. And so not everything, but most things, most things that you add to the gumbo pot just makes it better. And so it's like, if you're dedicated, then you're gonna add something very special and very meaningful to the gumbo pot or the jambalaya or whatever it is. Like, we need you. So come on.

[00:11:41] Lindsey Dinneen: That illustration is the best. I love that. Perfect. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:11:53] Harlem Lennox: Yeah!

[00:11:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:12:00]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So to me, art can be just about anything. I don't like telling people like, "Oh, that painting -- that's not art. That will never be art." I look at art from a very broad sense where people will probably be like, "Well, then nothing is art if everything is art." But I look at, so for example, my daughter can make something, or my son, or my other son can make something, and I will look at it as art and I will seriously react to it the same way I would react to it if somebody showed me any piece of art. I look at nature as a form of art. The way that each tree is beautifully unique. And I have an obsession with trees and the way each tree is beautifully unique. And the simple fact that there's all these different changes and stuff like that within the universe.

[00:13:07] And so, 'cause I was actually thinking to myself last night, like even after-- you know, this is so morbid, but even after we're all gone and maybe, you know, like the dinosaurs, humans are no longer on the earth or whatever-- like the world, the earth is still going to be making art. I look at a lot of different things as art and I define art is anything that gives a person meaning. If you can look at it and feel something within yourself, within your soul deeply. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a positive or negative feeling, if you can feel something and it makes you think, then I consider it as art. Did I answer that question?

[00:13:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfectly. That's exactly what I wanted, your own perspective. And I love that. Yeah, I think there's inspiration and art all around us. So I'm, I'm right there with you. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:14:11]Harlem Lennox: To be themselves and to be truthful about what it is that they are trying to convey, whatever it is, no matter how dark you might feel that it is, or no matter how light it is, because it just-- I feel like if you can feel something and you can get something, some type of meaning from whatever it is, then it is art. And so if you are making, whether it's a piece of music or painting, if you're dancing, whatever it is, if it has meaning, and it is true to you, then I think that is the response. That is the responsibility of an artist. I don't want an artist who tries to be the next whomever. I don't want an artist who, okay, what is everybody liking right now? Let me try to create that. And I understand that people got to do what they got to do to get where they're trying to go. And so maybe they start off that way because they're still learning. But when you get to a point where you're confident enough and brave enough to be able to produce your own work, your own truth, whatever is in your soul, then I definitely think that that people have a responsibility to bring themselves to the art world, because like I said, we need it. We don't need another Van Gogh. He's here. He did his thing. Thank you Van. But I want to see another whomever it is: Brittany, Sam, you know, Godfrey, whoever. Bring me your art, bring me your truth. Or else it doesn't mean anything.

[00:15:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. Yes, I absolutely agree. I just, I don't have anything to say to that. I'm just like, yep, absolutely. So true. Perfect. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to someone who puts their art out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a title or show notes or the inspiration or something like that, just a little bit behind the scenes. Versus an artist who creates something, puts it out there and doesn't provide any context. So it's left entirely up to the viewer as to the interpretation.

[00:16:41]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So disclaimer, disclaimer. I hate it when people put art out there and don't tell people what the context is behind it. It's very frustrating because of the fact that I like to know the behind- the- scenes. And I like to know what that person was thinking and what inspired them. However, I definitely think that it should be both. I think that all of it, because I like the way that somebody can put something out and they know it's valuable and they know it's going to cause a reaction, but they want whatever reaction that comes from you to be natural. They want it to be something that comes from within you.

[00:17:31] I cannot remember the name of it and I actually tried to look it up, but I cannot remember the name of the artist, but I remember seeing the painting. It was at the Cincinnati art museum. I don't know if it's still there, but it was just like, it was a navy blue, almost like a navy blue background. And then it had these large streaks of just three different colors. And I think it was like red and orange, whatever, and it was abstract art and it, it drove me nuts because I'm looking at it and I'm feeling something crazy behind it. And I remember I went to one of the people that were there giving people tours and guiding people and stuff like that. And I had this very like visceral reaction to it. I'm like, "What is the point of that? Like, what is that?" And I couldn't understand why I was feeling what I was feeling. And she just looked at me like, "Oh, my gosh, you're doing exactly what he wanted you to do." And basically he said that she was saying that a lot of people have the same, like this very emotional reaction to it.

[00:18:39]Some people cried, some people like were angry about it, and it was apparently made during like right after World War II and people were feeling, you know, a lot of emotions and stuff like that. So anyway, so I want to have both. I want people to be able to make art and have a particular intention and be able to say, okay, look at this, like, this is what I'm trying to show you. This is why this is so valuable. But I also want people to be able to make art and allow people to come to their own conclusions and feel their own feelings, ' cause I think both are important even though it is extremely frustrating.

[00:19:22]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I was chuckling. When you were talking about your first statement, your opening statement. I share your opinion. I think that there should be room for both, obviously. But yes, I'm with you in that personally, I would always rather have some context to just, you know, just help me better understand it and appreciate it. Well, so for those who might want to kind of follow your journey, I know you've provided where to find your podcast already, but is there a way for us to connect with you, if you know, we could follow your journey, your acting and, and all of that?

[00:19:57]Harlem Lennox: Sure. Yeah. So you can again, go to my website, harlemlennox.com. I am also on Instagram. I do so much better on Instagram. And that's @harlemlennox, and you can follow me there. I'm actually working on making it better visually and coming up with some other stuff. So stay tuned for that. And then if anybody wants to talk to me or ask me questions or whatever, they can either do it there, or they can email me harlemlennox@harlemlennox.com. And then I'm also on Facebook even though, so my Instagram is actually linked to my Facebook.

[00:20:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And since you've had so much amazing life experience for yourself, and also you've now had the opportunity to interview so many cool artists and hear about their journeys-- I'm curious if you have just some advice for somebody who is starting out or who is maybe wanting to be an artist, feeling a little uncertain about following their path. Do you have any advice for that?

[00:21:08]Harlem Lennox: Yes. Number one, make sure that you find somebody who is doing what it is that you want to do and get some insight on what that life looks like. And so that you can make an informed decision. However, even though it seems very counterproductive, if it's something that you really want to do-- like I've had people tell me like, "Oh, you have three kids, but never heard of that." And I just say," I don't accept that. I don't accept that. I'm going to do it anyway." Thank you for the information so that I know what to expect, but if it's something that you really want do in any way, figure out a way to do it anyway. And then make sure that you are informed about the ins and outs of whatever profession that you're trying to go into, if you feel uncomfortable about something, definitely listen to that and try to figure out why. And then just keep going. Even when you get to a point where you feel like this is not working. I don't know what I'm doing. I can never get to where I'm trying to go. Just keep going, keep learning. It's a learning process. It's always going to be a learning process even to win. Even if you get to Bette Mettler status or, you know, James Earl Jones status, you're still going to be forever learning. So continue to learn and just enjoy the journey. Don't don't think so much about the destination. Think about the journey. 'Cause that's, that's the best part to journey the struggles and all that good stuff. That's the best part.

[00:22:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you for that advice. That was fantastic. And thank you so much for being my guest, Harlem. This has been absolutely incredible and you are so inspirational and I am just smiling so big right now because this was fantastic. So thank you so much for being here today.

[00:23:11] Harlem Lennox: Thank you so much for having me!

[00:23:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, please do subscribe to Harlem's podcast and check out her work. She is incredible. And the work that she's doing is so fantastic and important, so please do follow her. And again, thank you for listening and we will catch you next time.

[00:23:40] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:23:49]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

View Details

In today's episode, I welcome Harlem Lennox! Harlem is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative. This episode is part one of a two-part series because Harlem has so much insight to share! She shares how her upbringing allowed her to experience art at an early age, and how a teacher encouraged her to try for bigger and bolder things in the arts. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Harlem's podcast cover image!)

Get in touch with Harlem Lennox: www.harlemlennox.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 43 - Harlem Lennox (Part 1)

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey there, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I just want to let you know that this episode is going to be a one of two. Harlem Lennox is absolutely amazing, and I am so excited that we were able to talk for an extended length of time, which means that I have the privilege of breaking this episode into two. So here's part one today. And part two will be available next week.

[00:00:59]Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today the brilliant Harlem Lennox. She is a podcaster, actor, writer, and overall creative, and she is just magnificent. I've had an opportunity to get to know her a little bit and she's-- I'm just so excited that she's here. So thank you so much for joining us, Harlem.

[00:01:28] Harlem Lennox: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be able to talk to you. Of course. And so I'm curious, do you mind sharing just a little bit about your background and you know, how you got interested in art and then.

[00:01:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, you, like you said, overall creative, so I'd just love to learn more about you.

[00:01:48]Harlem Lennox: Okay. So I actually come from a very creative family. I have musicians in my family. I have other actors in my family, writers, things like that. So it's kind of been just a part of my life. And then when I was younger, I was born in California, but I moved to San Francisco with my dad and I also lived in LA. So, we were always around some kind of art. My dad was very into art. He was the stereotypical San Franciscan who is vegetarian and totally into, you know, art and new age things and stuff like that. And so we definitely spent a lot of time at museums and cultural centers and stuff like that. And so, I just, I kind of grew up with art. I definitely always kind of dabbled, as I like to say, in different aspects of art, like throughout school and stuff like that.

[00:02:53] But I remember in particular, when I was in eighth grade, I was brand new to this school. It was my first year at this school and we had a play. And one of the teachers like just kind of looked at me because I volunteered to work the curtains. And she was like, "You know, you really should be up there. Like, you should be one of the characters. You should be on stage, like acting and doing stuff or whatever. You're such an animated person." And so when I left that school to go to high school, I was in drama and in theater classes and stuff like that, took them all four years.

[00:03:31] And it just snowballed from there. I couldn't stop doing it. I fell in love with it. It was a huge outlet for me, especially because when me and my father moved to Cincinnati, he became heavily into religion. And so we went from being these artistic Franciscans and, you know, involved in film and stuff-- like my dad was a DJ and, you know, in music-- and all of a sudden , we went from that to very, very strict and very demure and all that kind of stuff like that. And so being a part of theater and acting and writing and writing poetry and writing plays and stuff like that was my way of still having that connection. And still, also having that connection with my family out in California, because of course living in Cincinnati, I didn't get a chance to see them all the time. And so it was a way of me feeling connected to them as well. So yeah, it's just been a part of my life and a part of me growing up and all of that good stuff.

[00:04:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's so cool. Your, you know, your background of getting to grow up just among art or a mid start. I don't know, but anyway, that's really cool. And I just think what a, what a heritage, you know, to be able to have come from a family that does appreciate art and, and it was just a part of your life. That's really neat. And I, I love somebody recognized that your passion and your expression was underutilized, you know, and said, "Hey, you should really be up there. How cool."

[00:05:12]Harlem Lennox: I love teachers who are able to see things, no matter what it is, whether it's art, science, whatever, and be able to see something in somebody and be able to say like, "Hey, get up there, like, don't be scared. Get up there." And I've noticed a lot of people have those stories where teachers really encourage people to get out there and do what they're naturally supposed to be doing.

[00:05:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I had some teachers that said the right thing at the right time, when you were feeling down or discouraged about progress or whatever, and they just had the right thing to say. Teachers are the best. Now, are you currently still acting? I know you're podcasting and I'd love to hear more about that in a second, but are you still acting as well?

[00:05:58]Harlem Lennox: So I do a little bit of acting. It's mostly right now, me studying and trying to get better at it. I think because of COVID, it's been super slow as far as the acting. And so I'm trying to take this time to learn more. And even though that's really difficult, I was recently on a Zoom acting thing. It was the one minute plays and it was being held over Zoom. And so it was so crazy. I'm so glad that they didn't tell us because it was actually viewed by people like in other countries and stuff like that. I was already very nervous because of course I'm not used to acting on Zoom. And so I was very happy that they didn't tell me that it was being viewed by so many different people, but that's pretty much the most I've been able to do since COVID started. So I'm just trying to utilize this time to learn more, read more, learn more about, you know, film and different things like the differences between the arts and stuff like that.

[00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And it is a good time to kind of continue learning and growing on your own, and then hopefully things will start opening back up and we'll get back to our full artistic selves. But yeah, good for you for taking this time and still devoting yourself to, to continuing to learn and grow . Oh my goodness. Yeah. Kudos to you for that, that video opportunity. That does sound very intimidating. I'm so glad it went well, though.

[00:07:34]Harlem Lennox: Yeah, the whole time I was so nervous. Oh, I was so nervous. I'm used to being on stage. And you know, the great thing about being on stage is the lights are so bright that you barely see that. So it's kind of this nice little imaginary wall that you have to kind of keep you from being as nervous as you normally would be. But then if you're on screen, like you're looking at everybody, everybody's looking back at you. You're right there, front and center. It was scary, but it was awesome too.

[00:08:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Seeing reactions up close and personal and oh. That is what I do really like about being on stages, not being able to see the audience, which sounds terrible, but it just makes me less nervous, you know? I feel like I can concentrate better. I'll just put it that way. So then really recently, actually, you started a podcast and I would love if you'd share just more about that.

[00:08:31]Harlem Lennox: So the podcast is called Harlem with a View and basically it talks to different creatives about their creative journey, different topics within the creative community. And, and basically creating community. I definitely want to be able to not only promote people and their art, but also be able to have connections with people. And I'm hoping that later on down the line, I'll actually be able to do some educational work for different actors and just artists in general, just because I think that sometimes not all creatives, that some creatives kind of either don't know how to, or forget about like the business aspect of it. And you know, the accounting and the taxes and all the stuff that we probably could care less. And so I want to be able to have an educational aspect to it as well, to help either people who have been in it and are still struggling, or people who are going into it and have no clue what they need to do as far as that's concerned.

[00:09:39] But I like to talk to creatives about the different things that they do, creatives of all genres about the different things that they do. And I noticed there are other podcasts that are like mine, but they kind of steer away from some of the harder subjects, like when it comes to race, when it comes to just heritage and different things that are going on within that community. I've also noticed that a lot of people, whether it's intentional or unintentional, they tend to Interview people from a very, very small demographic. And so I'm trying to expand that and give everybody an opportunity to tell their stories. And it has been a learning process because I am a black woman, but at the same time, my story is not the same as everybody else's story. And so it's like, I'm hearing so many different stories and people getting an opportunity to really, really add something to the creative world. And it is so exciting to see what is going on.

[00:10:52] And another reason why I wanted to start it was to also help kind of open the doors of different small, you know, communities of creatives to be able to open those doors. Like, hey, you know, we're doing awesome stuff over here too. Look at what we're doing! And kind of give people an opportunity to, to look at like what's going on in Cincinnati and the small community, our community in Cincinnati, and what's going on in Tennessee, Texas, and all these different places and kind of bring these people together and just consume art.

[00:11:29] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Well, and you know, I love it because obviously I have not the same concept for a podcast, but obviously complementary, I'll put it that way. And so I just love what you're doing and commend you for that work. And I, I totally agree with you. And sometimes it's, it's difficult, especially maybe when you're starting out, because you kind of gravitate towards people that you already know. And, but I agree, it keeps the circle pretty small, so it's nice to be able to start branching out and getting to hear very different perspectives than your own. And so yeah. Good for you. That's, that's fantastic. Well, I'll just go ahead and dive right into that. So where can we listen to your podcast?

[00:12:14]Harlem Lennox: So I published my podcast through a site called Anchor. So it basically puts your podcast on many different platforms. So I'm on Spotify. I'm on Apple Podcast. I'm on Stitcher. I'm on a lot of different things, but then you can find more information about my podcast and actually listen to my podcast on my website, HarlemLennox.com and be able to find all the different things. So if you go to Anchor, you'll be able to also find all the different places or other places that it's posted.

[00:12:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. So now I'm curious, as you've been listening to people share their journeys and stories, has there been anything that really stood out to you that was surprising?.

[00:13:05] Harlem Lennox: One thing that I think was surprising is the fact that, so it's one of those things where it's like, you know something to be true, but until you actually experience it, it's still a theory in a way. And so when you go on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, people tend to be pretty angry about certain things. And it's like, you're getting a snapshot of, of how they feel, and they're commenting on something very specific, but then when you hear their stories and you hear just what they've been through and stuff like that, there is the sense of not being angry necessarily. It's more so like, "I'm not trying to take your stuff. I just want to be included. I'm not trying to take over. I just want to be included." And this feeling of, "my voice is important too. Like I'm not trying to shut off your voice and my voice is important too."

[00:14:11] And I've always been the type of person that wanted to be more, like, open the door for everybody rather than have that sense of like, okay, well there's not room for everybody. So if you know, we're going to have this group of people come up, then obviously it means that we're shutting these people down. I've never been that person. And so being able to hear these stories and hear these people say like the, the thing that you thought, the theory that you had, was correct. We're not coming in and we're not trying to take over. We just want to tell our stories and be able to share our experience and let people see the real me. And even though it's one of those things where I already knew that within myself. And I already felt that within myself, being able to hear people actually come out and say like, we really do want to be a community.

[00:15:14]It was, was very eye-opening because of course, when you're on social media, most of the times you just get the anger and that's the sense that you get from reading some of the comments and, and stuff like that. Like, people are just tired and fed up of not being heard. And so being able to hear people say, like, "I just want you to see who I am, and I just want you to be able to like really experience me. And this is not, you know, what you see on TV, what you see in theater and, and different things like that, that doesn't tell the whole story." And it's been very humbling, you know, and it's like, I'm a part of these different marginalized communities and different things like that. But again, we're not all the same person. We don't all have the same feelings and thoughts. And so being able to experience that has been absolutely amazing.

[00:16:13] And then the other thing that has been absolutely amazing is to be able to connect with people who actually do have these extremely interesting stories. I'm somebody who not only is a creative, but I have an obsession with history and there are so many things that I just like-- of course I'm not supposed to know everything-- but there's so many things that I didn't know and understand. And I'm learning something every time I talk to all of these different people. And so hearing all of these different experiences and like, "Well, this is what actually happened." Or, you know, this is what I have been told, like some insight from within this community, like being able to get the 411 from the people who actually experienced it, like I've learned so much stuff, it's insane. And it's actually fueled my history buff self, because I've been now researching all these different things, like, hold on a second. I thought this, this is the way it went, but it actuality it might've gone this way. So it, it has been a huge learning experience, just all around. And I think it's also going to make me a better actor and a better writer because it helps me understand more about the world. And you definitely need that as an actor and as a writer.

[00:17:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Wow. That is so powerful. I'm just sitting here listening and that is so cool. And I, and I agree with you. I think stories matter so much. I mean, having the context matters and like you said, sometimes it's easy to-- or I'm extrapolating from what you said, actually-- but sometimes, you know, you read something on social media and like you said, it just comes across as very fed up or done or whatever and frustrated. And that makes sense when you have the context of, like you said, "I just want to be included. I just want a seat at the table." And providing space for that, for somebody to share their stories and to tell their truth and to invite you into, because sometimes it's, it's just a matter of not knowing until you have that context. That's such a cool thing that you do and that you get to share with the world , and I think that's just incredibly, incredibly important. So thank you for doing that work, so to speak, but I know, I know for you, it's been great too, but, but thank you for that. That's fantastic what you're doing.

[00:18:49] Harlem Lennox: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying so. I'm hoping that it has the same impact that it is. It has been, I'm hoping that it's as enriching for other people as it has been for me, 'cause it's just, it's so valuable and I'm hoping that other people are feeling that as well.

[00:19:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. As soon as I heard her say this, I have thought about this so much-- Michelle Obama talked about, she was talking about-- well, actually, I'm sorry, I don't remember the context-- but what she said was that "It's hard to hate up close." And I think that's such a profound thing that she said, because you're right. You, you won't, you shouldn't anyway, but you know what I mean? But, the closer you get to somebody and their story and their experience hopefully the human reaction is empathy, and, "Oh my goodness. I, I didn't realize that." So yeah, kudos to you.

[00:19:45] Harlem Lennox: Theater has-- just acting in general, I think even though other people do it and not everybody comes to the same conclusion-- I think that's one of the great things about theater, because like I said, when we moved to Cincinnati, my father became very conservative. He became very like-- 'cause I'm not really sure, 'cause there are people who are religious, who are not, you know what I'm saying-- like small minded. So I don't want to say super religious. It just became extremely, extremely, extremely conservative. And so I guess, for example, when it came to homosexuality, I was taught certain things. And from within the church, and it was crazy because I, I knew something wasn't right about it, especially growing up in California where you meet all kinds of different people and you're around all kinds of different people.

[00:20:39]And so it never really made sense to me, but when I was a part of theater and there are a lot of different people, you know. In theater that's where all the the weirdos go, where the rejects go. Like we all go to the theater and that's where we find our home and our common ground. And so me as a black woman going there and being feeling like I, I was seen and understood, and then being able to meet people from that community and being able to say like, "Oh my gosh, they're not anything like what I was told." Like, they're just, they're just normal people. And this is me being a kid having this experience. And so theater taught me to think outside the box and to see people as just like me, they're human beings with these beautiful stories that are just like everybody else. And so that was something I don't even know where I would be today. I guess in my thinking, if I didn't have that, if, if somebody else would've came into my life and been able to share that with me.

[00:21:54] And it also helped me, 'cause I'm glad I got that experience because my mom had come out to me. And so having that experience in theater and being able to be around those people-- like when my mom told me, she came out as bisexual. And so when, when my mom told me that, that that was something that she was going to, you know, she was going to live her best life. It was easy for me. And it was just like, okay. And she automatically thought because of the way I was being raised by my father, that I was going to, you know, feel a certain type of way about her. And I was like, "No, that's great. Like now I can actually talk to you about these things that I've been learning about in theater." I'm just like, "Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you." Like another adult to be like, I actually have a parent that I can have honest conversation about. And none of that I don't think would have ever happened if I didn't have the experience that I had with acting and with theater. So yeah, I'm hoping that other people also are able to learn to meet people where they are and see them up close in a way through my podcast and podcasts like yours as well.

[00:23:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Theater is such a great place-- dance is similar too as well-- is it's just a great place to meet people from all different kinds of backgrounds and experiences and stories and to move in and to share life and to learn and grow and do better. Yeah. So that's really great that you had that experience.

[00:23:33]Quick reminder, Artfully Told listeners. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm so grateful for that. And quick reminder that we are going to do part two next week. So stay tuned and enjoy another wonderful session of inspiration from the amazing Harlem Lennox. And until then, we will catch you next time.

[00:24:01]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:24:12]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Emily Moores! Emily is an installation artist based out of Ohio. She creates largescale, original designs out of hand-cut paper to provide a joyful moment in time for her viewers to take everything in. She shares about why she doesn't feel the need to define art, how being fully present brings better perspective to an art interaction, and the importance of creating playful art. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Emily Moores' art installations!)

Get in touch with Emily Moores: www.emilymoores.com | www.instagram.com/emilymoores_art

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Episode 42 - Emily Moores

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to introduce to you today, Emily Moores. She is an installation artist focusing on hand- cut paper, and thank you, Emily. So very much for being here and for sharing your stories about art.

[00:00:54] Emily Moores: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you would share just a little bit about exactly what being an installation artist means and what that process looks like, and also just sort of how you got involved. This is fascinating to me. I'm so excited to learn more.

[00:01:14]Emily Moores: So as you said, I'm an installation artist that focuses mainly using hand-cut paper. Over the past year, I've started using other things like fabric or lights in my artwork, but an installation is like an immersive sculpture. It's something that is made to fit a particular space. And if you move or transfer it to a new space, it adapts to that space. So it's not something-- like a sculpture stays the same, regardless of what room it's in, whereas the installation kind of fits into the space. So what I really love about installations are they, there's something that you have to live in the moment. It's not something that you can come back to when it's moved to another gallery. It's-- you have to be present for it when it's in this space at that particular time.

[00:02:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's amazing. And so how did you get started into that artistic endeavor in the first place? Or what kind of, what is your background, what it kind of prompted you that direction?

[00:02:18]Emily Moores: Well, I went to art school and I got a degree in painting. I took a few years off and I mostly stayed within drawing and painting. And then I went to the University of Cincinnati to get my master's degree in studio art. And it was while I was at that program that I started to take things-- I started to cut apart my drawings and break away from like a flat space. And so for my like final thesis for my master's project, I ended up building like a large scale installation in a stairwell. And so that kind of is where the starting point for me and how I built myself into a 3D space.

[00:03:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. And how cool to go from, like you said, just cutting up your own artwork and realizing that it can transform into something completely different. Love that. I love that about art. And so, you know, growing up, were you always drawing and, and painting or whatever? I mean, like, have you always kind of been an artist or did that interest develop later?

[00:03:24]Emily Moores: I had always been-- I guess I had always been an artist. I was fortunate enough to have my parents signed me up for Saturday afternoon art classes when I was younger. And I was just never really good at anything else. And so I ended up only applying to go to art school and that was kind of the only vision I had for myself.

[00:03:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I think when you start growing up that way and it's just like, okay, well, this is the course of the natural next step. Yeah. So, okay. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the work that you do and maybe some different experiences that you've had. You had mentioned that it doesn't stay the same when it's from one gallery or space to another. And I'm kind of curious what you mean by that. Obviously I'm sure the space dictates quite a bit of, of how it's maybe laid out. Forgive me if I'm not using all the correct terminology.

[00:04:22]Emily Moores: It's, so basically like let's say, okay, so a couple of months ago there, I built an installation for ROY G BIV Gallery in Columbus, Ohio. And so I had two nooks in the gallery, and then I had a window space. But the nooks were like seven feet wide was one, and then I think the other one was like five feet wide. And so the way that I built the beams, the beams were built for that space. So if I were to, if somebody were to request that artwork again in a different space, I would have to kind of alter the beams to fit because they were like nailed into the wall. And then they were the support structure to hold the paper and the lights up. And so I would have to kind of refigure the wood and kind of cut it into different configurations so that it would fit into a corner because not every gallery is going to have like a seven foot wide nook.

[00:05:19]And so, and I think a lot of times too, when we think of like, how everything is documented in our lives, constantly with our phones. And there's something that I really love about installations in that a lot of times, especially when they're larger, you can't get them all in one picture. You have to move around from different vantage points. And also with the temporary feel of it, you know, you can't wait for it again. Like, it's something that you have to be there. You have to move around the space in that moment. I do love, and I feel really flattered, when people take pictures and post them on Instagram of my artwork, but I still love the idea that they have to physically move and walk around and that you can't basically take a picture and kind of hold onto it completely, you know?

[00:06:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's a really special thing about walking through installation art, and I haven't had as much opportunity as I would love to, but I think that those experiences have been the most memorable. I mean, even as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the various installation art I've gotten to witness and it is kind of a magical experience because you're-- you're right-- you can't capture it in one frame and one instant and that's special, cause you, you kind of have to explore or come back, you know, to fully appreciate it. So that's really cool. Yeah. And now do you work both inside and outside with your work?

[00:06:49]Emily Moores: I have not worked outside. It's not something that I'm opposed to. I haven't had a chance yet. So most of mine within the past year or so have been all indoor installations, but they've been looking through a window. So there's like the vantage point of looking in the gallery. But then also when you walk outside of the gallery, like looking through a window at the artwork, and so when I am constructing the installation, I'm thinking about the composition of when you're inside the gallery looking at it, but then also as you're walking past it in the window.

[00:07:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, neat. Okay. Very cool. And then as far as the various locations that you've been able to do work in, do you mostly work in a certain geographic area or have you been able to travel with your installations or anything like that?

[00:07:36]Emily Moores: So I've done mostly like local shows as of right now, like I'm have two small children and so going long distances isn't as much of an option right now. And I think I think there's a lot of benefit to doing local shows. Because the people who are coming to see your artwork already have a familiarity with your work. And so the kind of conversations you have, like people are asking how you transitioned or transformed or people already kind of feel comfortable with like thinking about the paper that I'm cutting or noticing, you know, kind of different techniques that I'm using. And so I think there's a lot of value in exhibiting or continue to exhibit in your local community.

[00:08:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And kind of build that reputation and build that community, you know, of people who are like, "Oh, you're doing a new one. I want to come back and see that." Yeah. Yeah. That's neat. So with your artwork, I'm sure, obviously, you always have a lot of intentionality behind what you do of course, but are there specific themes that really kind of pull at you that, that are really important for you to express, or is that also dependent on how you're commissioned or how was that whole process? How was the creative process for you?

[00:08:54]Emily Moores: I would say, so my creative process is usually I build like a little model of the gallery out of foam core. And then I play around with like a tiny version in my studio space, but a lot of times I'll have a basic vision or an outline with the larger materials. So like over the summer, I was in an installation at the Riffe Gallery and I had like three triangles made out of wood that were kind of like little pyramids, just like three beams kind of going up. And those were pre-planned, but there was a lot of it that I built to fit. I kind of like build components. And then after I get the main structure set up, then I'm walking around the gallery, thinking about how the viewer, like, when the viewer walks into the space, what are they first going to look at? You know? And then when they walk past, what is going to change.

[00:09:49] And so a lot of times I can just build the main structure and then I go into the actual physical space and thinking about the person who's standing there, looking at it. And one of the themes that I think about a lot is being playful. And I also think about like using a sense of texture too. I guess going off on the installation is helping you be present in the space of the gallery. One of the things that I really am inspired by is a book by Susan Best called " Visualizing Feeling" where she talks about an effect, which is like, it's not exactly your feelings, but it's like if you-- you know how, like you can feel people like looking at you, even though you might not be looking at them, or you might be able to walk in and feel like a sense of danger or you can feel a mood. And so thinking about that, when you're engaging a work of art. And so a lot of times I try to use texture as a way to be playful and kind of create that feeling. But also kind of like push the viewer to like walk around and be curious and and to kind of like playful light-hearted way.

[00:10:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, so a lot of textures and I, I love texture in art that always-- I don't know why it just, it, it speaks to you on such a different level. I just think it's always so cool whenever it's used. Yeah. Lots of texture. Okay. Now are all of your exhibits or your installations, do they, are they kind of view- only, or because there's that texture aspect, have any of your installations been something that people were invited to actually physically touch, like participate that way or?

[00:11:34] Emily Moores: I am not opposed to moving into a place where people could touch it, but right now they are not. They're just for your eyes only. So, and some of the times I use like little wires or it could, you know, maybe they would need to be more secure if people were to start like touching them or engaging them. So, because I usually use tiny little wires to attach the paper to each other. And so while it's the cure to like, hang up on its own, it's not secure to be like, touched on or pulled on, you know?

[00:12:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Well, and you know, it's not like that's something that has to happen or something. I was just curious, cause I know some artists end up creating some things that, that that's part of the intention behind it, which is kind of cool too. Okay. So you mentioned, you know, the playful aspect, which I love. I think that's really a charming thing that you do. Do you also use your artwork to address things, concerns that you have or to speak about? Like current events-- not that you have to, because I think there's so much room for so many different kinds of art and I'm, you know, like I think the whole spectrum is fantastic, but I'm just curious. Do you use some of what you do to speak out about, you know, things that are important to you or is most of what your work does for, you know, for that experience, for that joy, for that playfulness?

[00:13:00]Emily Moores: I would say it's not really connected to current events in that it leans more for the joy or playfulness. I think about it more like an abstract painting where like, when you think about the brush strokes creating a sense of movement, and your eye going through the composition of a painting, that these are like textures that are pulling you in and out for this kind of like immaterial, but like feeling of engagement where you're like walking and exploring maybe like a, a real life or 3D kind of painting, abstract painting.

[00:13:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, cool. I love that description. That is so fun to think about it in those terms. All right. Very cool. Now, have you dabbled in other art forms as well? Or is your primary focus right now your installation art, which I'm sure takes up an extensive amount of time? You talked about your process being starting very small with these models and then kind of building out from there. So obviously you're, you're very engaged with your work, but do you do other art firms as well? Or is this kind of your gig?

[00:14:08]Emily Moores: I play with-- sometimes between like a lot of installations I'll make like wallwork, so there'll be like sculptures that hang on the wall. And a lot of times it's like taking the remnants or the leftovers from my installations and playing with them in a new way. And so I'm able to kind of like push ideas or like different uses of colors, like quickly. I'm going to be veering into that direction right now because I'm finishing up my big projects. I've been storing my scraps, and so I will kind of like use a smaller wallwork as a way to kind of rethink how I'm moving my colors or the scraps of paper or the textures.

[00:14:50]Lindsey Dinneen: So cool. Very cool. Now you had mentioned-- and I loved this-- you had mentioned being able to do quite a bit of indoor work last year. And last year as we all know, was a little wonky, to say the least. So I'm curious, how did COVID affect your work or, or did it? Or did it make things adapt or your galleries change or whatever? What was the outcome for you?

[00:15:16] Emily Moores: Well, the first exhibition I had last year, I set it up and then like a week later everything was shut down. So the gallery was not really prepared for that. And it was also on a college campus. And so they, nobody really saw that exhibition. But then when I was at the ROY G BIV Gallery, they did like virtual. They did a lot of like social media. In Instagram, I got to do an Instagram takeover, which was really helpful. And they also, you could look, look at things through the window and they also did like scheduled tours too. So you could schedule it with your, like, wear your mask and just go one at a time into the, or like, like your family could go one at a time. And then, over the summer, I was at the Riffe Gallery in Columbus, Ohio, and they we did some virtual artists talks. But a lot of it was just like posting online. They did an artist talk on YouTube where they walked around the gallery and talked about the artwork that was in the show. So that was helpful because then people who were out of state, you know, that I was familiar with, I could just email them the YouTube link of the exhibition talk. So.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's nice to have that ability to share your art actually with maybe a wider audience than you would have necessarily. Yeah. And I love the fact that those galleries were so innovative in their approaches. I've just been so impressed with the adaptability-- and of course we shouldn't be surprised, this is what artists do, right? But I've just been so impressed with the adaptability and flexibility that I've seen with that kind of thing in mind, like sure --one- at- a- time tours or one group at a time, or look through the window or let's do this virtually. That is really cool. I'm so glad to hear that you were able to do a lot of work regardless. That's encouraging. So I'm curious, are there any stories that kind of come to mind of times where maybe either you watch somebody react to some art work that you had done, or you went to go see some art and you had this sort of gut reaction or this moment that you thought I really need to remember this? This is kind of something that stands out to me as an encounter with art?

[00:17:34] Emily Moores: Yeah. I do not remember the artist's name off the top of my head, but I went to MOCA in Cleveland and there was an like a installation where you walked in and sat down, like you were in a movie theater and then you put on these headphones. And then the artist had done like where you stick the microphones into-- so you do like two microphones that she stuck into foam heads when she recorded. So when you put these headphones on, it would sound like she was right behind you because the speakers matched your ears. So she was like whispering in your ear while you were like watching this movie and you couldn't focus because it really felt like there was a person like standing behind you, like making fun of the movie. And, and so I really love artwork that I guess kind of throws you off a little bit and kind of makes you-- I guess, I don't know. I just really had one that was really memorable because it was just so unexpected, I guess.

[00:18:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Unexpected. That's a great word. Yeah. So essentially things that surprise you because maybe they're a little bit different or a little bit more innovative, or like you said, like having her voice feel like it was right behind you, immersed in this experience. That's really cool. Yeah. And then, do you often have an opportunity to witness people witnessing your art or is it more you set it up and then, you know, people kind of witnessed it on their own time.

[00:19:05]Emily Moores: I would say that there's like, so as I'm building it, a lot of times people, you know, before COVID, would come up and talk to me about what I was doing and I really love that engagement. And also you can watch people interact with it during the opening, but especially now with social media, you know, if people tag you, you can see their reaction when you're not in the gallery. So, or kind of like learn more about what they say when they talk about like what they're looking at. And so I think that that's also really powerful too.

[00:19:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. So I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:19:54]Emily Moores: I know maybe this isn't like the right answer, but I actually don't really worry about defining art because I think there's a lot of people who push, you know, especially when you think about like the past. A hundred years where people are like doing social practices, art, or they're switching into doing installations and all of these norms were broken, but they're still really meaningful ways of engagement. Sometimes I think if we get too caught up in trying to define something, then we can lose our ability to be open. And, and so I'm not-- I guess I'm not as concerned with having a definition. I know for me, I definitely practice within like the realm of installation and within, you know, making wall works. You know, like maybe I'll go back to making paintings or drawings, but like if I were to walk into a gallery and there's like a performance and it's mostly dance, I don't feel like I wouldn't necessarily want to adhere to a definition.

[00:20:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I actually love that answer because I have never heard it said quite like that. And I, I agree with you. I think, I think sometimes we can get bogged down too much in the definitions, but I love your openness. Okay. And then also, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:21:20]Emily Moores: I think that there are a lot of different kinds of roles for different kinds of artists. Like some artists have you reflect on, you know, historical events or connect you to maybe an idea or group of people that you wouldn't have a connection with. And I guess in any situation, whether, you know, like if I'm just creating artwork to be playful, I'm still creating a connection to this like physical, tangible object existing in space. And so for me, I would say artists create connections where we maybe haven't thought about them previously.

[00:22:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Mm. Yeah. I love that. Yes, and you're, you're completely right --the playfulness matters. I mean, it's so important to have art be fun and joyful too. I mean, again, like I was saying earlier, it can do so many things, but I just, I love that what you do is playful. That's fantastic. We need that in our world.

[00:22:22]Emily Moores: I was at a baby shower recently, and somebody told the expecting mother that all the cliches that people say about having a baby are completely true. And in some ways, like when you think about these things that you talked about, or maybe were cliche from like kindergarten. So sometimes I think about, do you remember that book about, was it Ferdinand the mouse? Or maybe it wasn't Ferdinand. It was a little mouse who all the other mice were working and he was like collecting images of colors in his head and he kept them going through winter. I don't remember the name of that book, but sometimes it's kind of like these moments of play. Especially, you know, before COVID, so much of our culture was just like rushing and trying to accomplish so many things and if you're always rushing, you know, like you miss all these beautiful moments in your life. And so, and even now with so many people being quarantined and things are struggling, taking these moments of playfulness are still really important. And so sometimes those things that seem cliche are still really important.

[00:23:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely amen to that. Love it. Okay. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides a little bit of context behind it, whether it's their inspiration or program notes, or it titles, something. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's left solely to the viewer or participant to make of it what they will.

[00:24:08]Emily Moores: I would probably say a little bit of both, and kind of like, depending on the artist, their intent, like leaning towards one way or another. So like, if somebody is creating artwork about a historic event and they want you to feel a connection to something that happened, that inclusiveness of creating like a wall text, or like parameters for how to look at the artwork would be really important. Whereas for me personally, I don't feel like when people walk in to look at my installations, I don't think that they need to really know. My artwork is not biographical. It's not necessarily connected to anything specific, other than like wanting people to be present in the moment in a really playful, engaging way. And so I don't, for me, I wouldn't say that I need to have that wall text, you know? So it kind of, it kind of depends on what the artist's intentions are, but I feel like both are valuable.

[00:25:10]Lindsey Dinneen: I agree with you. Yeah. I liked that a lot. Perfect. All right. Well, first of all, Emily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your stories. And it's so interesting to me to hear about your process and how installation art just changes and adapts. And I love that seems just like a perfect metaphor for artists and art in general. So.

[00:25:36] Emily Moores: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. Yeah.

[00:25:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Yeah. And I would love if our audience is able to connect with you or follow your work, or now, since some of your things are virtual, I guess we can mostly all engage. Do you mind sharing a little bit of, kind of how to, to follow your journey?

[00:25:57]Emily Moores: I have a website. It's just emilymorres.com. But if you go to my biography, that's where all the links are going to be, like the curator talks or any kind of like interviews I've given. And then also I post on Instagram. So it's @emilymoores_art. And those are more like studio shots, which my studio is a little crazy. I think the most recent shot is my daughter. She just like squirted the paint and was like washing her hands in it. She's learned how to open the paint. So that is a little messy right now.

[00:26:29]Lindsey Dinneen: Aww, I love it though. I love the behind the scenes. I, I often joke with fellow artists about how sometimes there's this perception that an artist's life is really glamorous, but if you look behind the scenes, you know, there are moments of glamor for sure, but that's maybe like the 5% and the other 95% is messy. Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much again, Emily. I really appreciate your time today and sharing your stories, and I'm excited to take a look at some of your artwork and I'm sure our audiences as well. And I just appreciate what you do. I love your stance on playfulness and joy, and just that's that's so cool what you do. So thank you. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you are as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:27:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:27:40]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about the SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales's interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Darnell Benjamin again! This is part two of a two-part interview with this incredible actor, filmmaker, choreographer, dancer, and all-around amazing artist. He shares his heart about bringing dance to more people, and how fortunate he always feels to be an artist. His interview is truly inspiring, so enjoy part two today!

Get in touch with Darnell Benjamin: www.13thandrepublic.com | https://www.facebook.com/darnell.p.benjamin | www.instagram.com/darnell.p.benjamin

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Episode 41 - Darnell Benjamin (Part 2)

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here--just a really quick moment to let you know that this is part two of a two-part interview. If you recall from last week , we actually broke this episode into two different recordings because it was so good. Darnell has so many wonderful things to share with us. And the interview just is a little bit longer than our typical episode length. And so if you'll recall, part one was last week. Part two is this week. If you haven't already listened to part one, I would highly encourage you to go back and do that real quick before you jump onto today's episode so that it flows really well for you, but you are in for an absolute treat, and I am so excited to share Darnell with you once again. And without further ado, enjoy.

[00:01:25] Darnell Benjamin: It's like, I don't know about you. I think a lot about how, you know, the people who inspired me and I, you know, we all have those people who really just inspired us and why we do what we do. And , and, and some, for me, it came so late. And, it's been a very important thing for me to try and visibly be that person that I wish I would have seen. I never growing up seeing a really, really out queer black man. I, I didn't accept, you know, obviously you can see these people on TV, but that can feel very removed. You know, I didn't see that in my community.

[00:02:06] And so it's been very important for me to, to be that person and to be unapologetic about it. And, and know that you can know that I can still be unapologetic about it, but still be able to not lose my sense of being grounded. You know what I mean? Not getting so sort of removed and unapologetic to where you don't, where you disconnect with people. Like for me, I thrive on those connections with people and I thrive on even the connections with my students. And I try to be that person that I wish I could've seen. You know, that's what it boils down to. And now granted, you know, we all have good days and bad days. Haha! 'Cause there was some days that I, I don't know if I'm winning at being that person, but that's a part of the cycle. And, and, and I didn't know. I mean, I'm just, I'm grateful to have even had an opportunity to share that story. You know, I really am. I really, really am.

[00:03:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That, that is incredible. So yeah. Good, good for you and, and good for you for, you know, wanting to be that for the people coming behind you, right? Not just, you're not just sort of reflecting on, "Oh, I didn't have that. Oh, that's too bad." But you know, "Oh, I didn't have that, but I wish I could have, and I know that I can be that for someone else," so, yeah.

[00:03:29] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And even looking at this pandemic right now and thinking about how--oh, my goodness, I don't know about you-- but this pandemic has really made me feel so small. It's made me realize how small we are all are in the larger spectrum of things, and so what I've been doing, I'll share this. I've been going back to all of those favorite movement books that I'd read in the past. And I've just been sort of immersing myself in being reminded of basic-level things. Like I re-read the "Viewpoints" book. I re-read the Labon efforts book. I re-read both Tadashi Suzuki books that I have, which is what, is The Art of Acting." And then there's also "On the Technique of Acting." I read that one. I've just been kind of reimmersing myself into--because coming from a dance background, it, it was a no-brainer for me that in the work that I do as an actor, it always comes from a movement perspective. I can't not. Like that's the first thing my brain thinks is, how does this character walk ? You know, little things like that. And going back to the basics, that's been, it, it's been kind of humbling and very, just kind of, it's just kind of nice to be reminded of how small we all are. You know what I mean? I, I've been in that place of being reminded of that and being gracious. So that's, that's, that's, that's where I am right now in regards to all that.

[00:04:59] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. I love it. You know? Yeah. I just love the fact that that art can do that kind of thing for us. And, and that's what makes it so special. And, you know, before we started recording, we had a chance to chat a little bit, and you had talked a little bit about how you feel that art can be experienced by everybody in different ways, sort of. Do you want to chat more about that?

[00:05:26] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. I mean, I think about like, for example, growing up in a small town in Southern Louisiana , my family, you know, they, they are not people who are big art people. And I think some of that comes from the perspective they have of not being invited to or are a part of that world. But I was just the kid who art was where I--there was never a question--I mean, it, it was so clear to me that this is the world in which I sit. And what I found is that, you know, growing up in those environments -- my family that, you know, it's kinda not the greatest story in the world, but my dad, he passed away in March unexpectedly and he had been telling me-- the last thing my dad had seen me do and as far as performance was in grad school, and that was like in 2008 and here we are now, you know, in 2021, he passed in March of 2020. And he kept saying, every year, "I'm going to come to Cincinnati. I'm going to see something you're doing when it come to Cincinnati. I'm going to see something you're doing." And that's over and over again.

[00:06:29] It's the same thing with my mom's side of the family. And they don't, you know, and I know a big reason why that is, is because they and, and I'm only speaking the words that they, my mom particularly, has said to me herself is that she sometimes will say she doesn't get it. She doesn't get it and I, I, it's so easy for people to think that art is above them. And I think that's really a sad thing. The reality is that art is for anybody and everybody. Now granted that are a particular piece of art may not speak to you. And that's valid. I don't think anybody should feel guilty because something doesn't speak to them. I think about, for example, Beyonce, as much as everybody loves Beyonce, I'm just not that much of a fan. And I don't feel badly. And I'm a gay black man and people get mad at me about not being a fan. But my thing is I love Solange. I love her sister. Her sister does some weird, interesting music. And I am all for that. I love people who take those risks like that.

[00:07:28] So I guess what I'm getting at is that there is no such thing-- there is no reality to the idea that art is not for everybody. Art is for everyone. Art should rather be for everyone. And unfortunately though, people start to drink that Kool-Aid and they start to believe that, "Oh, this is not meant for me." Like what I think about what happened to me. And that professor, if I would have listened to that professor, I would never be doing Shakespeare. I would have given up and I would have closed the door and I would have limited the potential of my career, not even just my career, but my work as an artist. And what a foolish thing, you know what I mean? So, for me, it's so incredibly important to know that you just have to find the art that you like, because there are so much out there.

[00:08:15] I think about like, you know, for example, I struggle sometimes in art galleries, that's just, that's, I'm more of a -- I like art that moves, like art galleries, where it's more of a -- whether that's video work or experiential work. I love that kind of art. I have to admit I'm not as big into paintings on a wall. And does that mean that paintings are not amazing and valid pieces of art? Of course not! That just means that for some reason, to me, it doesn't speak as much. Now, granted, have I found expressionists work? Absolutely. That speaks to me. I love when I can just fall into a painting and not understand it necessarily in the--and what I mean by not understand it is--I might not be able to know exactly what the artist's intention was, but guess what? I am a, a consumer of art, so I have a right to digest it how I digest it, and to translate it in a way that applies to me.

[00:09:20] For example, I think about in grade school or even high school, the book choices that schools choose. I'm from, like I said, Southern Louisiana and my high school was primarily BIPOC. And we had a really high Asian population as well as black. And we were reading things that--I mean, you know, for example, the conversation on "The Great Gatsby." It's hard for a kid growing up in a small Southern Louisiana town who doesn't have much exposure, for example, to , to white individuals or to individuals outside of his world. So he might read that and not connect at all. He probably is not going to even finish reading it because it's going to be like, "I don't get this, this doesn't do anything for me."

[00:10:09] But, so that's why I think what it boils down to is from a young age, right, teachers, mentors, parents should expose their kids to the art that speaks to their communities, that speaks to their world because that will open the door then to them expanding their reach of what art they connect with. But if they're not even given that opportunity, then if, or rather if they're given work, art that doesn't relate to any of their world, that's, that's not going to affect them. I was a weirdo kid who got affected by everything. I was so interested in a lot. I remember reading "The Red Pony," and I liked "The Red Pony." I'm pretty sure I was the only kid who liked "The Red Pony." But, that was just me, but that's not going to be like that for everybody.

[00:10:57] So I guess what I'm getting at is that if we're not, if we're not sharing art that a kid can relate to, then that kid is not going to gravitate to the art in the way that you would like them to. And so we have to start from a young age and some of that comes to also you know, support. So I think supporting friends, supporting family, and going take in people's art and... art, in my opinion, I think art also applies to if you're an entrepreneur and let's say for example, you have a, a, a shop when you sell bags, that's art. I think people forget how much they are surrounded by art. I will never forget reading that, that article, it was at least--it was in a newspaper here in Cincinnati, where they had at the bottom of essential workers was artists.

[00:11:44] And I remember being mind-blown by that because all I kept thinking was here, we are in a shutdown with a pandemic and you are at home doing what? You're watching TV shows and films. You're listening to music when you workout. You are playing with your kids, with toys are games that were created by artists. So the whole time, I'm just kind of like, how are we not essential when we're the only reason why you've not lost your mind right now? Right? I think about that all the time. How just, I think our culture in America is so disconnected with what art is. I don't think people really understand that art exists in--even for example, engineers, I think, are kind of artists like creating devices that work in a certain way and having to put all the pieces in, in the only way that'll make it work correctly. And over time, we think about the technology of phones getting better and better and better and technology getting better and better, but there is an art to that. And I wish that that kind of art understanding was taught. So people genuinely understand that you are surrounded every single day. That lamp that's sitting on your desk, that's art.

[00:13:02] So I think the more we can get our culture to truly embrace and see the art that's around them, that I think that whole conversation on the , on the art being for someone or not will stop. But I think until we get that understanding to people that they are surrounded by--these masks, I think of everybody choosing their own specific mask, buying it from friends who are designing these, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that is a designer! That is a costume designer or purely just somebody who loves to, so who is making a piece of art. Art for you to wear on your face." And that is amazing. That is so amazing to me.

[00:13:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I love that perspective and you're absolutely right. We are literally surrounded by art. Even the furniture is designed by somebody. I mean, that's an art. Everything--almost everything-- yeah, is, is artfully created on some level. I mean, I have a friend who is an engineer and he was having trouble seeing what he did as art. And I was like, are you kidding me? What do you design? It's designed! That's art. Like you have a unique, you know, you get to include the science and the math and all that with it too. But like it's, it's art. Yeah. It's so cool.

[00:14:24] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. I even think about like, for example, us as dancers. Oh my goodness. The understanding you have to have of anatomy and even physics to really, truly understand how you can make your body dance. And dance specifically--I mean, science and art, in my opinion are constantly best friends, always working together. And the stronger your understanding, in my opinion of science, and particularly in regards to anatomy, the stronger your ability to dance, when you can know and understand what your body is doing little, tiny little adjustments. Like one of my favorite things in dancing, even as a dancer or as a choreographer, I'm big on isolations. I love isolating body movements. I'm very into that. 'Cause I love that little tiny movement that you might do with your hip can tell a whole story. I love that stuff.

[00:15:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, me too. And. Yes. Oh, yes. That's all I can say about that.

[00:15:25] Darnell Benjamin: We are scientists, darn it. We are scientists.

[00:15:29] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. Or at least we have to have a solid understanding. Goodness. Yes, you're so right. That's one of my favorite things to teach my kiddos and adults in jazz classes, isolations and learning that your body does not have to move as a whole, like you can move individual parts. It's pretty cool.

[00:15:47] Darnell Benjamin: Oh yes. Oh yes. The body is a funny and strange thing. So strange.

[00:15:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Well, this has been so much fun and you have so much insight to share. So thank you for all of these stories. And I'm just curious, is there anything in particular that really stands out to you as an encounter with art that's like a moment to remember? Something that really matters that stands out as like "I've got to file that away."

[00:16:16] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, my goodness. So many. Oh gosh. I'll share a couple. One of them was in Houston. When I was in grad school, I went to see a show at the alley theater. I cannot remember what show it was offhand. But that company of actors--it's they're an ensemble. So it's a lot of times the same people in productions and you develop a relationship with them, you know, over time. But when watching this one show, I would never forget, there was this table behind this couch. And, you know, they would put things on it on occasion. Somebody would lean on it. In one moment somebody was leaning on it, right? And the table broke and the actor almost fell, but didn't quite, but every single actor on stage had this sort of moment of the gasp and nobody did anything for a little bit.

[00:17:08] And slowly you started to see people start to tremble, 'cause they were wanting to laugh so badly. And one by one, they broke, and they laughed for--no joke--probably like a solid two minutes. They could not stop. Like, and you know how that is. Anytime one of them would pull it together, and another one pull it together, and then somebody else would start laughing again. It was the most phenomenal thing to watch on stage when you have that, that sort of --the layer peeled away and you're just seeing these real people on stage. It was magical and hilarious. I will never forget that. That goes down in easily one of the top theatrical experiences of my life.

[00:17:52] And then I got to say another one too. This one is this one isn't as funny. This was pretty intense, but yeah. It was, I was still in undergrad at the time. And there's this festival called ACTF, which is American College Theater Festival is ACTF. Yes, that's right. Yes. And it's in Fayetteville, Arkansas, or it was that year. And the students go to compete for this Irene Ryan scholarship. So there's this production of "Pterodactyls" by Nicky Silver. And if you are into playwrights who write very sort of dark comedy-type plays, that's perfect. Well, this play, this guy is building this pterodactyl on the stage, like a life-size pterodactyl, he's climbing on a ladder and everything. It's really just amazing to watch. And yeah, throughout the play, there's this tension between him and his mother and he's trying to confront her and tell her. And he ultimately, she thinks he's about to come out as gay. And so she's avoiding it and dodging and dodging, and he just keeps saying, "But mom, I need to tell you something." And she's like, "Oh, well, you know, you can tell me later, there's this going on." And that's going on and on and on and on.

[00:19:00] And then out of nowhere, it's building up and building up and building up and then suddenly he just screams, "I have AIDS." And the lights go out. Oh my God. I did not see that coming it. Yeah. Right. I was probably 19 or 20 at the time and it just came absolute--it was so unexpected, that it's a moment I will never forget because it was done so beautifully, the orchestration of the lines and the buildup. And then what you expect is going to be one thing and they completely pulled the rug under you. And then complete blackout right after the line. And it was just like, "Are you serious?" Oh my God, I've never -- well that's a lie--I've cried in the theater quite a bit, but that was one of those cries I was not ready for. And on top of that, it was the lights coming up in the house and I'm mortified sitting there bawling my eyes. I will never forget that. I will never, never, never forget that.

[00:20:01] And it also, okay. Sorry, I got another one. You will appreciate this as a dancer too. I got to do this show, "bobrauschenberbergamerica" by Chuck Mee, and it's a phenomenal script. It's very kind of -- I didn't, I mean, I think in some ways you could call it an expressionist piece--but I played this character, Wilson, who is just hopelessly in love with this woman who comes like, sort of plays him like a yo-yo. She's back and she's gone and she's back and she's gone and there is this beautiful dance we got to do. And by the way, we got to do a Viennese waltz. And I don't know if you're a, a ballroom dancer, so you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. That is a tricky piece of movement to do and do smoothly. And while we're dancing, these ping pong balls are thrown all over the stage. By the end of the dance, there are seriously somewhere around 500 ping pong balls all over the stage, and we're navigating this dance through this. It was so, so magical and challenging, but the great thing, and you know what I'm talking about when I say this, she was an amazing partner. So the trust was so solid. We just floated. And it was just absolutely magical. Okay. I got one more, one more and I promise this is the last one.

[00:21:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Go for it.

[00:21:23] Darnell Benjamin: This was over a year ago. Wow. 2019, December. I was doing "Alice in Wonderland" and I was playing the March Hare. And since the director knew that I-- I, so I roller skate. I'm really big into roller skating. I love it. I refuse to get rid of my my roller skates. And she knew this about me because I'd done a show a few years back where I got to roller skate on stage while drunk with a bottle of Zima. And, but in this particular production I got to skate and I got to do tricks actually. And that was the most fun thing to do to bring in, you know, a hobby, a fun thing that I love to do in my personal life to bring that on stage. I mean, I don't know, just having those moments where you could bring a little bit of yourself, truly yourself into a stage experience. That was just fun. And I will never forget, there was this one day I got the best compliment ever . It meant the world to me because--so I had to skate on stage from stage left, which for anyone who's listening, if you were sitting in the audience, that's going to be to the right-- so I have to skate in from stage left and drop this miniature table, but I had to put it down in such a way to where the face--'cause there was a character's face on it--that was facing out toward the audience. It had to be facing out. And I just messed it up a couple of times in rehearsal.

[00:22:50] So, the break came and me being me, I went back and forth for probably like, no joke, 20 to 25 times getting it right. 'Cause I, it just had to be right. I wanted to nail it and I wanted to hit my turn and do a smooth exit. So one of the actors in the show was just watching that whole time, watching me go back and forth and back and forth. And she said, "Darnell, I love your commitment." And yeah. I don't know if she knows this--Sarah, if you're listening to this, just know that I went backstage and cried. I don't know why that really kind of affected me because, you know, I think about, and I'm sure you know this as a ballet dancer, the amount of discipline the work takes to make it effortless is a lot more than what the audience knows. You get to see the final product, but here we are like--especially if you're one of those obsessive people like me--you're, you're working so hard, not even just in rehearsal, but when you're home to try, and get it right. And to have someone acknowledge that, that was pretty huge for me.

[00:23:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, you know, what's so funny is--you'll actually appreciate this-- so a couple of years ago--I also, I really love roller skating. And a couple of years ago I asked one of my dancers-- who also choreographs quite extensively on the company-- and I asked her if she would like to set a piece that included some roller skating. And her being the sweet yes person she is, was like, "Sure, I'm up for this challenge." So she created this adorable--and I'm going to have to dig it up and maybe I can post a link to it at some point-- but this adorable, like fifties diner piece where it was myself and one of the other dancers were in roller skates. 'Cause we were the only two that were brave enough/foolish enough to undertake this. And , and we were the waitresses and then it was like, all these we're trying to do all. It was like cute little love story. And we're trying to do all this partnering and, oh my goodness. Do you realize how much weight is added when you do rollerskates? And then this, my poor partner, I think he was like, "What is happening?" 'Cause I, you know, there's all this weight at the bottom of your feet now. And so anyway, it was such a hoot in rehearsals and... I'm not gonna lie. One of the walls suffered a little bit when I totally fell, like biffed it, fell. And like my skate went right through the wall. So that's my roller skate dancing story.

[00:25:21] Darnell Benjamin: But isn't that the best, though? That's the, like, I don't know about you--my favorite moments on the stage are the ones where there is an , a mistake that happens when something goes wrong and you have to figure it out. I mean, I will never forget--I was doing this production of a show called "The Legend of Georgia McBride," and I'm playing this drag queen in the show and I happen to have on these heels that were probably good solid five inchers, but it also had a platform to it. So they were, they were, I was working. Right? And this one night I was feeling myself, you know, because we're doing the final number and it was a matinee, you know, those matinees, you're all energized. At the beginning of the day, I was getting my best life and I added, you know, how, like, whenever you watch those runway models and sometimes they kind of land on the outside of their foot and roll it flat when they're crossing the legs, and I somehow did that and I was feeling myself and I landed directly on the ground and I was so embarrassed because I got through the entire run of that show, not falling. But the, best part about it was that while I was down there, because my character is kind of like the messy type, I was like, "Well, okay, here we go. We're going to make this a bit." And so I turned it into this whole crawling routine and had fun. And I just think that's my favorite stuff I love when not--let me not say that, please. Okay. I don't love when things go wrong, but I appreciate when things happen that remind us. Oh, yes, yes. We got to stay present.

[00:26:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word that, that is exactly it. Yes. I, I joke about it, but it's a true fact--and I'm sure you've experienced this too--when you know a piece of choreography in and out, and eventually you go on autopilot to some degree, but the problem is that is, that is effective only if you don't quote, unquote, wake up in the middle of your autopilot, because you had this experience where all of a sudden you're like, "Hmm, I'm in the middle of the stage. I don't even know what comes next." Like have you had that?

[00:27:33]Darnell Benjamin: I have totally had that happen so many times and I've had it happen to the point where you're autopiloting--it's autopilot, autopilot, and then you realize that you're there and then you get in your head because you realize that you're there and you're watching somebody who happens to be looking at your footwork. And then suddenly you forget how to move your feet. Oh, trust me. There was this one number in a show, "All Shook Up," and I was in the ensemble in this show and we got this great choreographer who gave us this movement where it was basically it was kind of like, I guess, a soft shoe sorta sorta kinda. Yeah, it was kind of a soft shoe and for some, and the feet are like moving in many different directions. So if you mess up one thing, good luck. You're in trouble. And I messed up one thing and this woman watched my feet the entire time smiling and laughing and I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you're enjoying this because I am not." In, at the same show--this is another thing that happened with this show--so the shoes they got us for that number were these really, you know, and that's always the challenge when it comes down to shoes for dance shows, you know--spend that extra money and get the better pair, but they did not do this, right?

[00:28:43] And the sole of the shoe from the heel forward started coming apart, but it came apart at a fast rate. So I'm doing this very heavy footsie moment where we are crossing the feet and moving in all these different directions and the shoes, the sole starts flapping throughout the entire dance. It's so all this time, I'm just mortified because I can't quite land on my foot flat. And it gets to a point where finally I did this one kick little thing and the entire thing just flew off it. Yeah. I mean, live theater didn't get better than that. Live art is my favorite for all of those little mistakes. And yep, everybody saw it. There was no hiding it. So I kind of like laughed through the entire number because I was like, they're enjoying it. I'm going to enjoy it too. I love that.

[00:29:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm sure everybody has a shoe story to tell. I, oh my goodness. I had one time where we were doing a ballroom-inspired piece. It was , it was really fun choreography and it had like some elements of a Foxtrot mixed in with just a little bit of ballet. And anyway, it was, it was really charming piece. And I realized about five seconds--I don't even know--into the piece that my ballroom shoe wasn't buckled securely. And I spent that entire dance with this, like, you know, the gritting teeth smile where you're just, you're--it's not genuine. You're just, yeah. It's like, "Look at my face. Look at my face. Don't look at my feet. I'm going to distract from my flailing limbs." Yes, and so this--I'm gripping so tightly with my arch that I'm like, "This shoe is not coming off." 'Cause I cannot think of any sort of way to gracefully get out of this situation. If the shoe comes off, it's going to be bad, right? So the entire time I'm like gripping it with my arch muscles. And I'm like, this isgonna stay on. And the last few seconds there are these high kicks that I do. And I cannot tell you, I had the biggest cramp after that dance, because I was like, "This dang shoe is staying on my foot. I don't care what happens." Oh my word. And hopefully no one noticed, but I was a mess and, oh my goodness. And I don't think even my partner,--'cause I like whispered to him--I was like, "My shoe's coming off." And I'm pretty sure he didn't even hear me. And he was just smiling the whole time anyway. So...

[00:31:13] Darnell Benjamin: But you know, I mean, what a joy, I mean, these are--some of my favorite stories from theater are these sort of tragic moments where we, you know what I mean? Because I feel like so often when we perform, it's very, we, you know, we become these characters. We join that world. And what these mistakes do for me, they remind me that, oh, my God. It's not that serious. We can have fun. I get reminded of that whenever those things happen, that we have to remember that we get to do this. We get to do this. So, yeah, I love, I love when those mishaps happen. Well, the ones that we can fix.

[00:31:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. And it is so fun because these stories are what makes it just charming and where you build this comradery around being an artist, being a dancer, being an actor, anything. And you know, like we've talked about, we both have skating stories, ironically. We both have shoes stories, ironically, and they're not the same, but we get it. It's so fun. I love that about art.

[00:32:15] Darnell Benjamin: Yes, even when the stage falls on you. I mean, I remember this one performance where we were doing a show, "Love's Labour's Lost." And the director did it in this way that it was sort of a character in the, in the present, like today's world, kind of opening this book. And I, and as the character starts to tell this story, or to dig into this story, the, the, the front part of the stage--sort of, I don't know, like a door, like one big, huge door opens up. For some reason--I could not believe this of all times for this to happen--on the first preview, the wall starts to fall. And, and it's so funny. Nobody can control themselves. But at the same time, you know, that's their mixture of horror, 'cause you don't want anybody to get hurt, of course. But there's also that mixture of, "Oh, my goodness. Is this happening in front of the audience? And am I the person who looks so stupid right now? Oh my goodness. What is happening?" It's, but I will never forget that. I won't forget watching this actor friend of mine, Kelly, stand there as this wall is falling and trying to figure out, "Do I save my life and get off the stage? Or do I stay in character and pretend like nothing?"

[00:33:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Yes. I think everybody has experienced that who's done any kind of live theater production of, "Do I stay in character or do I die basically?" Yeah.

[00:33:49] Darnell Benjamin: And it's so funny to watch, watch the person think. You can see their brain running through, "What do I do? Do I leave the stage? Do I stay?" And I'm just like, "I want you to do whatever you want to do because right now it is entertaining. I want this moment, whatever this moment is, keep doing it."

[00:34:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh, I love that. And so a lot of what my company has done in the past is bring, try to bring some humor and some lightheartedness and a lot of joy into, into our productions. And one of the pieces we did was where we had a bunch of dancers ahead of time, record themselves saying things that they would say in their head during a performance, just to be funny. So like, part of it was something like, you know, commenting on how bright the lights were, or somebody noticed abBobby pin on the floor that they have to avoid, or, you know, "Nailed it!" after a turn or just like all sorts of like hilarious things. And then we compiled them all into this piece. And, and so it became sort of like the introspection, like the audience getting to hear what goes through dancers' heads as they're actually performing and it was a hoot, yeah.

[00:35:02] Darnell Benjamin: Yes. I love that idea. Oh my goodness. I wish I could have seen that. That's right up my alley. I love when we look at the art that we do and that we can not take it so seriously. You know what I mean? That yes, absolutely art can, you know, because that's the one thing that I, I, you know, I was thinking about that even most of the first half of this, I know a lot of what I was talking about were these heavy, serious things. But even in the film, that's why I made sure there was a moment of joy because I'm like, despite all the bad, despite all the complications--I mean, look at the world of art right now, as far as performing arts, like how we're not able to do what we do. And, and how sad that is, but also what I'm noticing a lot of people are doing, they're reminiscing. They're telling stories, they're sharing things on social media about this funny thing that happened backstage or whatever. And I just think of as much as we bring joy to people who watch what we do, I think about the joy we get from each other when we're creating. And we're in that making it happen. And the fun, the fun that happens in a rehearsal process is everything for me. I love the joy in rehearsal. I love it. I show up to rehearsal and I'm that person who shows up excited to be there every single day, because it's, "Oh my goodness. We get to do this. We get to do this. What a joy, what a joy."

[00:36:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen. I love that. Well, I have some questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that.

[00:36:34] Darnell Benjamin: Please!

[00:36:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:36:43] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, child. Wow. That's rich. Hm. I guess the best way I would describe art--art is perspective. Art is when someone shares their perspective through a specific medium whether that be film, theater, dance , visual , music. I mean, the list goes on. It's perspective. I think art is a person's perspective through a medium. I know that sounds very simple, but I think that that's, that's how I would define what art is.

[00:37:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I think that's perfect. Yeah. I love that. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:37:28] Darnell Benjamin: Ooh. I think the number one rule for an artist is to be honest. I think that, to be honest, whatever that means, to be honest.

[00:37:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And then I'll define my terms a little bit in my final question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts some work out into the world and shares a little bit of context behind that, whether that show notes or titles or whether it's the inspiration behind it or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and doesn't provide context behind it, so he or she leaves it entirely up to the viewer or participant to come up with their own interpretation.

[00:38:20] Darnell Benjamin: You know, that's such a tough one because I'm a firm believer in, you know, we can't please, everybody. Everybody's going to not like our art, even if we do back it up with whether that's statistics, information, whatever. So I'm a believer in you do what you want to do. I don't know if I think it should be one way or another or the other, because it's, it depends on the intention of what the artist is trying to accomplish. I think about, for example, "13th and Republic" is non-linear. It's abstract and it, what I, what was important to me is just to make sure people understood that this is a conversation on mental health. Boom. But other than that, I want people to take it, how they take it. I want people to digest it however they want to digest it, because I can go and give a dissertation on what every single moment in the film meant. But how was that going to be helpful to them? I mean, I think it's only going to be helpful when somebody can take from something, what they get from it, as opposed to me trying to force something down their throat.

[00:39:28] And that's also not me saying that because an artist does decide, let's say for example, to be inclusive with their work, I don't think that means that they're shoving it down their throat. I think there's a, there is a difference between sharing information to get people , give people insight and give them understanding about what it is versus saying, this is what this is. You cannot see it any other way. Oh my God. That does not sound like art to me. If it's like, you're forcing your audience, but if you are purely just sharing to let them in on it. I think about like, for example, when I go to a, an interactive performance and I really am not given any kind of direction, and I'm just kind of like, "What do I do?" And I know to some degree, some people love that, but I like a little bit of direction when it's something like that. But as far as if I'm going to a, to see a dance piece, or if I'm going to see a theater, I want the work to speak for itself.

[00:40:24] And then I love having conversations. Like I love talk backs, Q&As. I am all about that because to me, that's the moment where we can start to open the dialogue about what this piece is, but I don't see Q&As as like--the questions I don't like as much is stuff where somebody is asking me to tell them what something means as opposed to me just sharing with them what I was feeling when I created this and what my inspiration was. I love sharing that, but I don't necessarily like to tell people this is exactly what this means from start to finish. Yeah. That's not as fun for me, but to answer your question overall, I think it should be dependent upon the work and the artist. So I'm, I'm open to either as long as I don't feel completely abandoned by my artists. You know what I mean?

[00:41:11] Yeah. Yes. I think that's a great perspective and I like that, that the artist can choose to include you so to speak or not, but it is based on what the artists intended and all that. So, yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so, so very much for being here today, this has been so much fun. I've loved hearing your stories and I'm so excited for you in this new pathway that you're kind of blazing with "13th and Republic" and all that. What's going to happen as a result of that, it's just so cool. And if there's a way that our audience can kind of connect with you and follow your journey, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:41:56] Ah, yes. Okay. Well, okay. We had this conversation before. I am so in the stone age, sometimes when it comes down to social media, but I do have a Facebook: Darnell Pierre Benjamin. You can find me there. Add me as a friend, be a friend, all that good stuff. And I, I, I tend to be pretty regular about keeping people up to date about things there. I'm currently in the process of revamping my website completely. So I'm not even going to share that one right now, but it will be updated in the next couple months. That's part of my New Year's plan. And I'm on Instagram as well. I do not use it as much, but I am making an intentional choice to share it because this is going to force me to use it more. And it is at Darnell.P.Benjamin. So that's, those are the two, I'd say Facebook and Instagram for now or where you can find me most. And again, the film is at onethreeandrepublic.com. So check out what's going on there as well. Especially whenever we move into this next phase of getting it out now. I do want to make it very clear. We're staying in the sort of a tri-state area of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky.

[00:43:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And you heard it here first folks. So we're going to hold him to his Instagram resolution for this year.

[00:43:14]Darnell Benjamin: It's true. I cannot hide it. I have to own it. I have put it out there.

[00:43:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go, and we'll love following your journey, but thanks again so, so much. I've just loved everything and really appreciate your perspective and your heart for art, your heart for your students, your heart for change in the world. So thank you.

[00:43:36] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me and thanks for doing this. Thanks for like collecting artists and talking about art. I mean, what a joy, what a joy. I thank you for doing that. And thank you for inviting me to be a part of this. Really. It means a lot.

[00:43:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Absolutely, of course. And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:44:05] That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told .

[00:44:24] Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here, and I just want to share with you a little bit more about The SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. The SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you, and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joy-ful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Darnell Benjamin! His interview was so good that we ended up spending twice the time talking than my guests and I normally do. We've broken up his interview into two segments. Enjoy his experience as a professional actor, dancer, and artist today and next week.

Get in touch with Darnell Benjamin: www.13thandrepublic.com | https://www.facebook.com/darnell.p.benjamin | www.instagram.com/darnell.p.benjamin

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 040 - Darnell Benjamin

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. Hey, I just want to quickly let you know something before our episode begins and that is that this interview was awesome. I had so much fun talking with my guest today. And I know you are absolutely going to love Darnell as well. And hey, we had so many good things to talk about, and the interview lasted a lot longer than is typical for Artfully Told listeners. So I just wanted to give you a heads up to let you know that I've actually broken this into two parts. So you're going to get part one today and then part two next week. And I just want you to know that ahead of time before we dive in, and I cannot wait to share Darnell with you. And I know you're just going to absolutely love everything has to say as well. Thank you so much.

[00:01:26] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have as my guest today, Darnell Pierre Benjamin. He is a performing artist. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:43] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I know that performing artist barely scratches the surface of all the different things that you do. So I would love if you would just share a little bit about maybe who you are and your background and kind of all the different things you're doing now.

[00:02:01] Darnell Benjamin: Sure. And you know, and I'll say all the things I try to do, I'll definitely say I'm originally from a Southern Louisiana small town by the name of St. Martinville. And I started dancing at around 14, mainly because I came from a family that was already very big into music and dancing. And the short version is that it was actually in therapy that I basically got coached by my therapist to explore some movement things. We were just playing with movement. And that's when I learned that for some reason, movement became a, a sort of balancing act for me, a centering place. And so I started out doing some modern dance and that got me into playing with some ballet.

[00:02:44] And fast forward to high school, start playing with the speech and debate team, and helping with the plays and then on a whim-- like no joke, it was very much at the last minute-- two weeks before starting college, I decided to change my major from what was going to be aiming towards criminal psychology to theater. And I changed it to theater. And while in the program, I was realizing that I was getting just as many dance credits as I was getting theater credits. So that's when I just realized, "Oh, I'm going to just be a performing arts major," because I was bouncing around between the two of those. And that's when I started getting in love with also Shakespeare and language and words and how they words dance in their own way as well. So, that's when I got into Shakespeare. I ended up going to grad school at University of Houston, got my MFA.

[00:03:39] And the program particularly looks at the world through the lens of classical theater, specifically Shakespeare we focused on a lot, and it's a movement-oriented program. So it was perfect for me. And now, I mean, I just kind of right now, I just juggle between acting, dancing, choreographing, directing and teaching. So you know, I, I got a bit of advice many, many years ago from a professor who told me to broaden the brand, whatever you want to do, do it. Who's stopping you? And that really stuck with me. And so now I just like to pretend my way through things.

[00:04:14]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Yes. Well, and obviously you're not just pretending your way through things. You've been very successful, which is fantastic, but we all have to start somewhere. So there you go.

[00:04:26] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, exactly, and that's what I mean by pretend is that, you know, it's--I remember the first time I started to choreograph. When I really started in the beginning, because as a dancer, you know, have your, you have your awareness of your body and your body and what your body can do, but you don't necessarily think about other people's bodies. You do when you're working with them, but how to create movement for other people's bodies. And that became a whole learning curve for me. And I caught on pretty quickly and I realized that, "Okay." Cause I think I have my strength in choreography is that I think I have a good eye, and I think I'm not afraid to lean into storytelling. I'm very inspired by like, for example, there's that dance group, Polobolus , who is like one of my top, one of my favorite dance companies. I love the type of work that they do because they don't just look at the technical aspect of dancing. They also look at the storytelling. They look at what does this one angle of the body mean versus another. So I'm very inspired by that kind of work.

[00:05:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So you started as a dancer and it was in your teens, and so you had mentioned doing modern and ballet. And so did you continue to explore those two or have you also branched into some other dance styles as well?

[00:05:45] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, definitely. Yeah. A little bit of both. So I started out in those two and I always struggled with ballet and yeah, no, I was told early on, " Yeah, just don't have the feet." And so it's still that kind of got in my head for a long time, but then I noticed I had a a facility and comfort with modern dance and contemporary world. And that opened the door to me, even playing with some jazz. And that's really where I probably think my personal movement style sits the best. And that opened also to some tap. I'm pretty decent at tap. And then I started playing with some ballroom dance and I did well at that. And when I say--well, keep in mind, I am , I would say that I think I'm a better freestyle dancer than I am like, don't get me wrong--choreo that sits in a world of modern jazz, I am ready to go. Even some hip hop, I'm ready to go---but ballet is it, it's really hard for me. And, and I, I've been trying over the years to figure out what is the wall. And some of that, I think it's a mental block because I have in my head from that one person who told me, "Ya just don't have the feet."

[00:06:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh man!

[00:07:02] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And so now it's the one that I'm afraid of the most to be perfectly honest is ballet. Terrified.

[00:07:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, well that is so funny you say that because ballet is my forte. I absolutely love it. I think it's absolutely wonderful, but I'm, I'm the opposite of somebody who's like, "Here's this really abstract, modern piece or, or even worse, here's this hip hop piece." I'll be like, "Mmm, I don't think you want me."

[00:07:28] Darnell Benjamin: And that's, you know, I totally like, I guess, you know, on the opposite end I can relate. Because I think what is so amazing, I love watching ballet mainly because I love watching something so technical that's done so freely. When it's done well, you know, when somebody really is just breathing in it. For me, I found that I was having a hard time with allowing myself to breathe. I get very tense with ballet work, and we all know that type of tension is not going to be useful for that type of work. So that was always my issue, but the freedom or what I'm perceiving rather as being freedom in, for example, modern dance , I think what, why I gravitate towards that is because I'm so story-oriented. So, and in contorting my body and moving it in , you know, anything from like, for example, a flexed foot is exciting to me because I'm like, "Oh, what does that mean?" And so I find myself digging into the story of modern dance. And it's not that by the way, please don't--I don't want to make this sound like I'm saying there aren't stories with ballet because there are absolutely some fantastic stories--it's just that I have a hard time allowing my brain to turn off when I'm doing ballet. I really do have a hard time with it.

[00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. I think it's easy in whatever genre that, that doesn't come as naturally or as easily or whatever to you, to have that in your head aspect of, "Oh my goodness. I'm just trying to focus on the technical aspects and remember my choreography." So I think that's like completely normal for any dancer, for sure. And for a lot of artists who are dabbling in, you know, trying to like expand a little bit. If you're out of your element, you don't feel as free just in general, I think.

[00:09:22] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. And also the other side of that is, you know, to be absolutely real, I'm 37 and we all know what the body--like ballet at 37, it's a very different thing, especially if you've been away from it for so long. But I keep saying one of these days, I am definitely going to get back into a class because I would love to just go back to the basics. I don't know about you. I love barre work. I love just being there in the classroom and just doing the work. That's what, I'm not thinking as much. It's when I'm performing it that I get in my head.

[00:09:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Yes. I absolutely love barre work as well. It's like, there's something so--just exciting, but also safe or, which is kind of a funny way to put it, but it's just this like, feeling of home. It's like, "Okay, we're going to start back in the barre. Every time we're going to start with our plies." It's like having this, this predictable really well-thought-through formula.

[00:10:22] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When you're in that work session, it's really all about you. You just get to focus on your body. I mean, for example, I'm right now teaching at Northern Kentucky University, and I'm teaching a Movement for the Actor class and the students were working on some Tadashi Suzuki technique and it's a very focused technique. It is very--actually I would compare it to ballet in the sense of it's all about being very specific in getting to the shape, what is the shape, the specific shape--but where it's a little different is that one, and it may not be that different really , is that it's all about getting there faster, sooner, better. And it's about being able to train your body to know where that shape is without having to think about it. So that way you can just sit into it. And so working on that with my students right now, it's totally bringing me back to, I feel like I'm in a ballet class.

[00:11:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so I'm actually curious, you kind of touched on something. Do you feel that being a teacher and learning how to break things down for different students with different learning styles has helped you be a better dancer and mover?

[00:11:32] Darnell Benjamin: Oh my goodness. Do you know? I, I firmly believe that the best way to truly test your knowledge of your work and your knowledge of your body and your truth of your creative spirit is by teaching. Because when you have to navigate working with different bodies and different abilities and different levels of understanding, and to try to get them all on the same page, but you have to use different methods for each person there, it's impossible to not be able to reflect that on your own work. Because I know for me, those students teach me something different every single day, every day.

[00:12:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. It's so funny because sometimes professional dancers or pre-professional aspiring dancers will ask me questions like, "What do you think, you know, is something that I should do in this endeavor? And I always say teach, because I think, when I started teaching it, it forced me, I suppose, to astronomically develop my own technique and to go back to basics and realize, "Well, I'm telling you this, I better do this too." You know, it's just so funny. And yeah, that's just a, such a big piece of advice I always give people is teach, learn to teach, and then you'll, you'll become a better dancer yourself or artist or whatever, you know? It's yeah. It's like when you have to break down all the fundamentals, you're like, "Oh yeah. Huh. I should probably do that too."

[00:13:01]Darnell Benjamin: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. And you know what, I also try to be really honest with my students and tell them, "Hey." That whole, you know--I'm sure you've been told this, we've all been told this--when you start off in the arts young and especially I think about like, you know , that fresh out of high school going to college or going to a studio, whatever direction a person goes. And there is the, the emphasis goes a lot on discipline, you know, and I know, I think back to the time when I first taught a class, and specifically first taught a dance class, I found myself on the first day making mistakes I never make. And I remember beating myself up so much. And what I realized afterwards was that I started getting in my head and I started forgetting what I knew.

[00:13:49] And I started doubting myself and putting all of, and I was trying to be, I think I was trying to be the instructor, I think I thought I needed to be, as opposed to truly just trust your craft. And I learned a lot about myself that semester teaching and, and, and also being challenged to not only just teach, but consistency. You know what I mean? Being able to fully show up and be honest with the students and tell them, "Hey, well, there is this expectation that we are supposed to always be in the right space, quote unquote, you know what I mean, as artists, and when we go to do our performances, we still have to give those people the same show we gave the ones the night before and the night before and the night before, regardless of what baggage you're bringing into the room." But what I've tried with my students to really open the door to is having a conversation with, "where are you today?" Particularly in class, if you are in a space where you're not maybe -- let's say you didn't sleep well. Let's say you didn't drink enough water. Let's say--the list goes on. "What can you focus on you? Maybe you can't focus on the whole, but can you focus on one thing specifically?" Because you got to remember that, that classroom, whether you were the instructor or the student, it's your time and what are you doing with your time? If you're wasting it, that's on you. I mean, I, I put a lot of accountability on my students to challenge them, to accept the fact that they may not be in the best place on that given day, but you still owe yourself the time and effort to focus on something. You know what I mean?

[00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. I love the way that you put that. And I think one thing that stood out to me was you mentioned basically the word honesty. And I thought about that too, where it's, I'm sure many teachers can relate to this too, if they're being honest with themselves. But it's so interesting that I had to learn as a teacher to be very, just honest with my students too. And like you said, some days are off days, and even as a teacher and I don't want to bring that into my classroom, but at the same time, there are days I fall out of every single pirouette that I try. Right? And I like to call those high gravity days, but the reality is, you know, some days things work and some don't, but I think that's bringing in the humanity of the arts and the, the reality of the arts is you do your best. You show up every single day, you do your best, but then you just keep trying. And the next day you come back and you do it again. And not every day is going to be the most, you know, ah, success day. But you keep showing up.

[00:16:30] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like what it does, I found that teaching with that perspective has made my students better by the end of the semester, because they are being accountable for themselves. Because like, for example, in this, you know, environment where we're teaching virtually, I know that some of my students are not committing a hundred percent to what we're working on. I know they're not truly going there, but it's not all of them. And it's not all the time, the same people. So what I told them is that it's on you, you know. You know when you're there, and you know when you're not. Like, for example, I'm teaching an auditions class, a movement class, and a , a sort of musical theater intensive for high school students. So in those three different worlds, those are three different types of people, you know, very much so, but I told them in all three situations, this is an audition class. This is a movement class, and this is a musical theater intensive. You chose to take this class. So there's something you want to work on.

[00:17:35] And all three of those have to do with being prepared at the end of the day. So if you're not going to do the work, I mean, who can you blame? And so what I've noticed is that pushing my students to really take responsibility has made them actually be better at self-evaluations, be better at final products because they know where they sort of, I guess, set back. And it's showing up in their performances and they're able to comment on it in reflection papers. And for me, there's no greater joy than when I can read something a student wrote or even in , you know, verbal format, hearing them be honest about their craft because we all know like, I mean, the business is hard enough. The last thing you want to do is go pointing fingers elsewhere. Right?

[00:18:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think that's really important. It's a great life skill to help them develop to, of take responsibility for yourself. You're in charge of your life. That's very cool.

[00:18:37] Darnell Benjamin: Yeah, and it's fun. It's fun. And there are good days and there are bad days. Cause sometimes these--you know, right now with a pandemic going o,n mental health conversations are happening a lot more. And my students are being very forthright with where they are as individual. Particularly last semester, I mean, I had a lot of students reach out about some things that are going on and, and I'm like, how much can we, as you know ultimately mentors , give them enough tool sets to be able to truly not only be honest about their work, but also be able to keep track of it, to log it and be aware of if there's something consistent. Are you consistently having an issue with something? Are you consistently not showing up to class, whatever it is, whatever that consistent thing is, if it's not on the positive and what are you doing to change that, you know? And that's, that's where I get excited. Whenever I can see my students grow not only as performers, right? But also as a young adults, you know, that's, that's--what a joy.

[00:19:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I've been reflecting on teaching methods and philosophy a lot lately. And I think that there's nothing greater than that. It's, it's so cool to witness those light bulb moments and, and those.... Right? When something finally clicks and it's like, "Ah, yes, you get that!" It's so fun. So yeah. Yeah, it's great. And then the other thing I've been noticing too, is just how special it is when students don't realize how much more they have, and you're able to kind of show them that, and then it's like this, you just watch the transformation on their face, you know, like, "Oh, I, I can turn out that much or I can go that much higher on my releve," or whatever it is. And then they're realizing that. They have all of this and I, I just, that's just such a cool thing too.

[00:20:32] Darnell Benjamin: Yes. Yes. I have a friend right now in Seattle who is doing this research project, particularly on movement, actor movement techniques, but specifically from the perspective of risk, the concept of risk . Are you actually taking a risk with your work, whether that's in the classroom or in performance? Are you really throwing yourself into it and falling flat on your face so that you can learn something? But and you know, even relative to the Suzuki method, which is all about push, trusting that your body can go further than you think it can. And that's not, of course, in a way of abusing the body, not at all. It's more a matter of--like, even thinking about the turnout thing--most recently, I made a post on Facebook about how I was asking for advice because I've always had sort of really tight hips and really getting myself to truly let the legs actually turn out and not force it, but also not halfway go there. I got a lot of great tips and let me tell you, I realized something. It's not that I had such a hard time doing it. It was disciplined. I was not. Like going at it every day. I was really not truly committing to it and taking that risk to throw myself in far enough.

[00:21:52] And the results have been fantastic because I've been doing it every single day. I've set a time for stretching. I've set a time for breathing exercises and I've set a time for just really challenging and going challenging my body and going there because, you know, I mean, obviously I've been in his body and dancing and movement work in general for a while. So I know what my sort of quote unquote safe limitations are, but I've been really trying to push towards the riskier limitations. How far can I take it? How much can I do within the bounds of reason of course, but I'm, I'm noticing all kinds of great results. And it goes to show that sometimes what it boils down to is discipline, you know?

[00:22:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Amen to that.

[00:22:40] Darnell Benjamin: You're right. And especially as a ballet dancer, I am sure you know what I mean.

[00:22:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes. It is definitely the whole idea of consistently showing up and yes, so. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, so then, you know, you've also had an acting career kind of alongside, it sounds like. So you said you had done a lot of Shakespeare work. Is that something that you've gravitated towards more? Do you do all sorts of different theater or, or how did that whole come about?

[00:23:15] Darnell Benjamin: Oh, yeah. So in , in high school I was in, I was one of those nerdy kids in the AP English class, and we did not do any Shakespeare. And I remember being a little confused by that because I assumed we should have . Fast forward to in college, I had my first experience with Shakespeare and I loved it immediately. I'm a person who is very fascinated with language. I'm very fascinated with alliteration, linguistics in general, anything that is about the exploration of the sounds of words and how those sounds affect meaning. For example, like phonetics , all that stuff, I'm fascinated with that. So Shakespeare was like the motherland when I came across it and that kind of opened the door to me making the decision. That's partly why I went to grad school because I wanted more training in Shakespeare. I wanted to get better at it because I'll share a little story with you.

[00:24:10]I went to the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. Go Cajuns. And I'll tell you what--I'll share their story. And I don't say this for any, with any hate towards the university, but in the undergraduate program, specifically getting my BFA in performing arts, one of the professors there at the time, he , he taught all of this sort of, you know, the stage craft and lighting, the tech side. And he was also going to be the one directing "Taming of the Shrew." And I was so excited. It was going to be a summer production, which I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is fun." And they opened it up to the general public. So a bunch of people came in, auditioned for this, and we all watched each other audition. That was the worst part about it. Let me tell you, I could not be bothered with that. Watching people go one after another, getting antsy. But I'm watching people go in. I'm like, "Okay, all right. I'm not like the worst one here. We're going to be all right." And not even in a bad--I didn't mean that in a mean way.

[00:25:12] Even when I thought that it was just more of a, okay. I maybe could actually get a shot at this. And I went up there and did my thing, felt really good. And noticed the , the callback list went up a couple of days later, my name wasn't on it. And I kind of was like,"Eh, okay. That kind of sucks or whatever, but maybe I might still get cast because you know, there's always the chance just because you're not called back doesn't mean you didn't get it." So fast forward to the cast list is going up and I am looking for my name, looking for my name. All the way at the bottom, "Hey! I'm the Habit Asher." Well, when I saw that and I noticed there were people who, and again, you know, there's so many things that go into this, as taste, who knows. But there were so many people who-- like, I mean, some of them didn't even, were not off book at their audition. Some of them who just did, it's almost like they kind of got teleported into a theater. They had no idea what was going on.

[00:26:09] And so I was disappointed that I had gotten this role. So I talked to the stage manager who eventually told me that the instructor ultimately--and the one who was going, and by the way, this is one of my instructors and this was the person who was directing that show-- he said that, "Well, I just don't see black people in Shakespeare unless they're slaves." So that obviously, it was like, "Whoa." I went to talk to the Dean. And I was asked to go back down the ladder and go talk to the head of the department who was new at the time. So he's like, "Hey, you're going to have to go talk to the Dean. I kinda don't have my footing. I don't know any of these people. So, I'm giving you permission to climb up and go talk to the Dean." So I want to talk to the Dean and found out later that there were all of these cases piling up against this person. Everything from sexual harassment to racism to, I mean, it was across the board. And eventually this professor got fired. Yay.

[00:27:09] But, but what it ultimately did, it, it lit a fire under me. And I think I wanted to prove him wrong. That's how it started. It started with me having so much passion for it, the language and being told that, and being hit so hard by that. And so I made a decision that I was really gonna dig into this and like, start to understand it because I really started researching and thinking about it and I'm like, "Oh, wow. There really isn't a lot of black and brown representation in Shakespeare that I'm seeing." So, it became a mission of mine because I never wanted another kid to feel like I felt. I mean, and so I ended up going to University of Houston in which--my goodness, I will say this for any listeners--if you are a physically-inclined actor who is strong with language and want to you to get stronger, that is a great program. The work is very physically inclined, but also very see, hear, smell, touch such detail inclined.

[00:28:05] But fast forward to I finished there and I graduated in 2009 with my MFA and then I bounced around a little bit, landed in Cincinnati. And I started working with the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company in the 2010-11 season. And I've been working there as a resident actor since then. I've also done some Shakespeare elsewhere , but like that's the company that has been my home base with doing Shakespeare, and so Shakespeare is one of the things I do. I love experimental work. I love, I mean, actually it was an experimental company that moved me to Cincinnati, the Know Theater of Cincinnati moved me there. And they're kind of, they call themselves the alternative playground and they do a lot of fun alternative work.

[00:28:48] So, and now, as far as my own personal sort of--what the stuff that I produce and I do on my own--I'm very much what I call, you know, just I'm an arts activist. I love looking at social issues and how we can use art to further the conversation, and deepen it. So a lot of my approach is from a a social issues perspective, and I love, love the movement of expressionism. So that inspires a lot of my work. I mean, come on. Can we please talk about Pina Bausche? Right. Seriously, that kind of work gets me so excited. I love , I love when people can--especially in dance--I love when we can see people turn on its head what we define as dance, because the question becomes, what is dance? And what is the difference between dance and movement?

[00:29:41] I love exploring that middle ground and taking pedestrian things and turning them into dance and exploring how they can be seen as dance. So I guess across the board, whether as an actor or a dancer, I'm very much about looking into, I didn't know, I guess I'm, research-driven. I love exploring and understanding and taking those little risks that, you know, may not work always, but more often than not. I love that it creates a conversation, you know?

[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Oh yeah, of course. That's one of the most wonderful things about art, is that it does and can create and spark conversation. And that's pretty special 'cause that's, that's when you really get into all the exciting aspects. And what did the artist intend or what did you gather from it? I mean, because both of those things are important and so, yeah, of course.

[00:30:37] Darnell Benjamin: Right? Absolutely. I mean, I even hate whenever I do my work, it's so important to me to make sure that I'm not telling my audience how to feel. I love to challenge the audience, whether that's through theater or dance. I definitely, when it comes down to dance, I'm very inspired by also Mary Overlie and looking at viewpoints and exploring that to even create. So that way I don't, because, you know, we all have the, you know, we all have our tricks, the things that we're good at and that we can pull out at the drop of a dime. But I love figuring out, "Okay. All right, which of these viewpoints do I suck at?" Let's start playing with that. So that's something I like to try and do at, you know, and, and let's be real. Sometimes it's a pass and sometimes it's a fail.

[00:31:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, of course, but you never know until you try.

[00:31:30] Darnell Benjamin: Exactly and failure is fun. Failure is how we have an opportunity to learn of course, and, and, and try something different, you know? Yeah. So for me, it's like failure is just an opportunity to learn something.

[00:31:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, and that's a great perspective. So you had mentioned kind of briefly in passing you, you mentioned kind of the expressionist movement that's something that really compels you, but I wonder if you could just define that a little bit more and talk about what exactly you see that as being just since we might not all be familiar with that.

[00:32:05] Darnell Benjamin: Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. I know a lot of people are familiar with, you know, the scream painting and that is from like an expression as peace. It ultimately, and you know, the best way I could describe it, obviously it's in the way that I understand it and how I perceive expressionist movement being is digging into the feeling, what is the feeling that this art wants to portray. And instead of going from, you know, a linear direction with, here's a story with a beginning, middle, and an end, whether that's a play or for example, with a piece of art, you can just , you know, you can draw, for example, paint the Mona Lisa. But, or what you can do, you can paint what Mona Lisa feels like, what is, what is it that you want that piece of art to evoke? What is that feeling at the core? And that's for me, what expressionism is, it's about really tapping into not focusing on what we know as our realistic world, but instead exploring what is this world, this specific world in this piece of art and letting that tell the story.

[00:33:12] Like, for example , contemporary --oh, well, not that contemporary--but Edward Scissorhands, that's a, that's a perfect expressionist film because it created a world that was, yes, we recognize that these are human beings, but the distortion of the character of Edward, even thinking about the those bushes and how he would make these pieces of art with these bushes and that big castle that he lived in, all of that is very expressionism. You have, of course, the iconic film that most people know because It all stems from Germany. There's a lot of stuff out there that explores the exaggeration of things to tell the truth of what that story is.

[00:33:53] And as far as in my personal work , I actually got to do my first film. I directed and choreographed a film, which is kind of mind-blowing that that even happened. But , so I was, I was inspired by , so for instance, so I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and there were in 2001, there was the murder of a young black man, 19 years old by the name of Timothy. Timothy Thomas. And this was a kid who had a bunch of, you know, minor parking violations, things like that, tickets, stuff like that. And he was followed and he started running and he ran down this alley. Long story short, he , there are a lot of different reports of what possibly happened, but the gist of it is that he was trying to lift up his pants to climb over a fence. And he was shot because they thought he was going to be reaching into his pocket for a gun.

[00:34:44] And we all know we are in the midst of another round of this movement of the Black Lives Matter conversation. And, this has happened far too often. We know this happened back in 2001. And prior to that, there was a man by the name of Roger Owens B. Jr, where this happened in Cincinatti. So for me, I started looking at the repetition of this conversation and how we keep circling back to it. And instead of, and what I found myself leaning towards is we keep talking about it in this sort of sense of understanding of, look, this or here's point A, here's point B. This is what happened. This is the result. And I think it's a lot richer than that. And a lot deeper than that.

[00:35:27] I started leaning into the direction of mental health and that's I think at the core of the problem. And so I started thinking about over time, what are the effects of this repeated trauma on the black community and how are the ways that it manifests itself? And that's when I started , you know, putting this piece together and thank goodness , the company, Walter Hoop, which is an amazing company, please check them out: walterhoop.com. They are an arts center organization that plays in all the different mediums. They play in with podcasts. They play with theater. They do live productions, dance recently, with this film that I did. And they, they want it to produce this and we collaborated. The music is insane and the music matched up immediately with this concept I wanted to play with, which was thinking about how can we have this conversation, but look at it through the lens of mental health.

[00:36:27] So every single shot for me had to be, it was important that the choreography, the writing, which was, which was done by Tyrone Williams and it's a sort of, it's ultimately poetry. I wanted it all to feel abstract. I wanted it to feel familiar, but not . I wanted it to feel claustrophobic. I wanted it to feel all these things that heightened our emotions. And you know, and also in the midst of all that conversation, I wanted there to be joy despite all of the hurt , the lack of understanding. So at the end of the film, there is a -- it, it sort of, kind of goes through an evolution. Now granted, I didn't go--for anybody who might see this film-- which is called "13 the Republic"--I, if you are familiar with expressionism, please know that I didn't go like hardcore, literal expressionism all in. No, I actually played with a mixture of finding, pulling the things from expressionism that worked for me, which was looking at the feeling, what do I want? The, what is this feeling and how can I create that through movement? How can I create that through text? That's kind of how I lean into it 'cause a lot of expressionism, you're not going to have traditional scenery.

[00:37:42]Automize scenery in the film is very much actual streets and actual grass and actual parks, but where I kind of went more towards an expressionist direction in terms of scenery, it was in two scenes where I played with, what is it? What would it look like if we're inside of the main character's head? What does that look like? So there's this, there's a couple of scenes where I leaned into that. But yeah, that's, that's overall how I would describe expressionism in how I utilize it. I hope that makes sense.

[00:38:15] Lindsey Dinneen: That was perfect. And first of all, oh my goodnes, congratulations. That is such a huge accomplishment to have gotten to work on that film. And holy cow, that is a huge congratulations and, and, and kudos to you for starting that conversation and addressing things that really need to be talked about. And I so admire what you said, your intentionality behind the way that those scenes were portrayed and everything is just so amazing. I love hearing the background behind it, and why you chose things the way you did. But also, you know, choosing to bring out an element of joy despite everything I think is just huge. So, oh, my gosh. I cannot personally wait to see this film. Where can we watch this film?

[00:39:11] Darnell Benjamin: Oh yes, you can go to 13thandrepublic.com. And so that's one, three, and it's spelled out and AND republic.com and that's where you can go check it out. And it's an interactive website. That's the really cool thing is that Walter Hoop wanted to make sure that, because originally this was going to be a live production, but we are in the midst of a pandemic. And that's why we did it as a film. And even the film-- just in case anybody's wondering--we did it in August and it was done absolutely with every bit of social distancing and safety in mind. And I found a way even to incorporate masks in the show, in the film. So I found a way to do that. So we went through a lot of lengths to make sure that because, you know, it will be very ironic if you have these this cast of five black actors and dancers performing and they get COVID. You know what I mean? That was not going to happen.

[00:40:07] So it was very important, it was very important to me to make sure that they were safe and not even just them, but also me. And as far as this film, you know, I thank you for even like, 'cause it's, it really is mind blowing to me because it's funny how life has a way of surprising you: here we are in the midst of a pandemic and we were working on, I mean, this film was being worked on prior to the pandemic. We were prepping for filming and then the pandemic hit and we had to push filming back but the rehearsals had to get pushed back for what was going to be a live production because you can't, in my opinion, you know, when you want to talk about social issues and you want to talk about , how do we manage this?

[00:40:49] And the only way we can manage this is to have the conversation. And part of that conversation is a communal experience. And we couldn't have that because of the pandemic. So I'm really excited to share this information that I applied for a grant through a local organization here called Arts Wave. And they had this grant for what they call it A Truth and Reconciliation Grant. And I got one of those. And so the goal is that we're going to, we connect it with an organization. I can't say who yet, because it's not public just yet, but we connected with an organization where we're going to take the film out of the urban downtown areas and bring it into the suburbs and the rural areas as part of a showcase of the film. And there's going to be a live element involved with it. And also they're can, it's going to be a Q&A where we get to actually interact with the people who are outside of the thick of , you know , city council and the courthouse and all of that world.

[00:41:45]So it's really, because for me, the reason why I do what I do is to truly, truly have the conversation. And the only way we can do that is if we step out of our comfort zones and take that risk. And part of the risk for me was getting away from the place that I know, and from the people that already know what I do and going out into these neighborhoods where hopefully we will get welcomed. And obviously there's the chance that we will not, but the way I'm looking at it is that if I don't do this, I'm not doing this film the service it deserves, which is to be seen by the people who are not having these conversations, to be seen by the people who may be disagree with this conversation.

[00:42:28] But how nice would it be if we can actually have a dialogue? So that's, that's kinda the next phase of it, which I'm really excited about, but yes, just as a reminder, that's one, three and republic.com and it's an interactive website. So check it out. You get to, there are some interviews that are really cool where we interviewed the cast members to get their perspective and also the , the people on the creative team. So across the board, it's, it's beyond me because in my experience of creating, this is the first time I have ever gotten to do something exactly the way I wanted to do it, and absolutely being truthful to not only my personal mission as an artist, but to who I am as a , as a black queer man. So for me, I've never been prouder of something. Because it's, it's truly every internal experience thought that I've had in a film. It's kind of terrifying because in some ways, it's a little so vulnerable, it feels a little kind of invasive to share it, but it needed to be shared.

[00:43:36] And I think that I, I can't wait until we start having the conversation of mental health in, in tandem with conversations on social issues, because they're not separate. It's all connected. And I, I can't wait till we see, to see more artists, more scholars, more across-the-board people finding ways to connect those dots and really dig into the heart of what's going on within each of these social issues.

[00:44:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, my word. Well, I, I'm just sitting here smiling. Congratulations. This is so cool everything that you're doing ,and just congratulations on this grant and this new opportunity to expand your reach and to step out of your comfort zone. And, oh my goodness. I commend you. I think it's hard to be that vulnerable and put yourself out there. Oh my word. But that, but telling who you are and your truth and your story, that is so compelling. And that's going to, I just know that's going to have an impact on people's lives. It's going to spark those conversations that will hopefully actually make some change happen. And just think that you are a huge part of that. That is so cool because you had the courage to be vulnerable. So, oh, my word so much respect, kudos to you.

[00:44:59] Darnell Benjamin: Thank you. That's very kind.

[00:45:00]Lindsey Dinneen: That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:45:19]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, Lindsey here. And I just want to share with you a little bit more about The SpeakEasy Method. Now, if you've had a chance to listen to Gregg Gonzales' interview on Artfully Told, you're already a little familiar with the process that is so unique. That is the SpeakEasy Method is for people who are ready to write their books, but maybe aren't super confident about their own writing ability, or just want a more streamlined way of doing it. Gregg and his team at SpeakEasy are experts at these amazing questions that help your authentic voice to shine through. So what they do is they go through recorded audio interviews with you and these recordings are then transcribed and put into manuscript format, ready to go. So what's cool about that is instead of months and months, or years and years, of you writing a book, they will actually take you from concept to published and it can be as little as nine months. That is one of the most recent success stories that they have accomplished. And it is just a really innovative method that I am personally so excited to help represent and help share the word about because what Gregg and his team are doing is absolutely life-changing for prospective authors. And I highly encourage you to book a discovery call with Gregg or another member of his team to learn more and see if this could be the perfect fit for you. It's a hundred percent complimentary and you can do so easily by going to his website and that's www.joyful-living.com/speakeasy. And again, that spelled out is J O Y dash F U L dash living.com/speakeasy.

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In today's episode, I welcome Jaja Smith! Jaja is an actor, filmmaker, photographer, and influencer. He is the host of new podcast, "Just a Thought," and has starred in the web series, "Quarter Water Juices." He shares his thoughts about becoming an actor, continuing to take acting classes to sharpen his skills, starting a podcast, being the one behind the camera instead of in front of one, and so much more. With sound advice for beginners, and lots of great stories along the way, JaJa's influence is always intended to create positive change. (Fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is Jaja's podcast cover art!)

Get in touch with Jaja Smith: https://www.facebook.com/jaja.k.smith | https://www.instagram.com/jaja.smith/ | https://anchor.fm/jaja-smith

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 39 - Jaja Smith

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can put my part out into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Jaja Smith. He is an actor, filmmaker and influencer, and the host of a brand new podcast, as well as so many other artistic endeavors. I can just tell from our brief intro conversation. So I'm so excited to have you. Thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:01] Jaja Smith: Oh, thank you for having me, Lindsey. It's such a pleasure. I am, I'm excited. I'm excited to debunk and just talk art and all things creatives.

[00:01:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Excellent. My favorite thing. Okay. So I would love if you would share just a little bit maybe about your background, kind of what got you involved in art, and then maybe a little bit about what you're up to these days.

[00:01:22] Jaja Smith: Sure. So for me, it's actually kind of funny. Yeah. I started as an athlete. I was an athlete and a musician. So music was my first intro to art. And then I just, over the course of time, you know, I did what we were supposed to do, which it was, you know, the college thing and, you know, try to get a job and stuff. And I just got to a point where I just, I dropped out and I was like, this isn't, this isn't enough. I don't feel fulfilled. And I just, as soon as I did that, a web series fell into my lap, "Quarter Water Juices." And we did two seasons. And then once that ended for me, I had the bug. I was like, how do I keep going? How do I continue acting? And so I found my acting class, Cincinnati Actor's Studio, and I have just been going now for five years strong. And, you know, it's been a, a beautiful journey, you know, finding agencies and learning learning the business behind all this and just continuing to develop myself. And I realized the more people I play , the more I learn about life, 'cause you're seeing life through the characters that you portray. So that's really cool.

[00:02:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so. Oh, my goodness. I have so many questions. There's one in my mind, but first of all, so I'm really kind of curious, because the first thing I thought about when you mentioned getting to play other characters has sort of helped you understand life even better. Do you have any sort of, did it kind of help develop additional empathy? 'Cause I know that's kind of-- you would think that maybe embodying other characters might, might help you realize more and more about just humanity? I'm just curious.

[00:03:05] Jaja Smith: A hundred percent, because you know, when you play these characters, you have to walk a mile in their shoes, you know, you really have to think about, okay, how did, how did their -- what's their point of view? You know, how do they handle conflict? You know, what happened to them for, to get them to this point? And, you know, when, when I play these characters, I find it interesting when people feel the need to method act. You know, if you're playing a psychopath, but there's no need for you to go out and be a psychopath before you play this role. But I understand, right, right? Everybody has a layer, they love somebody died and that's what set them off. So, you know, you, you picture what it would be like to lose that, that person for you. And then, your whole basis is heartbreak. So, when you start to peel the onion back, you know, and all the layers, you really start to see, like, people are people. You know, there are still your, your terrible people in the world, your Hitlers, your Castros, and all those things, but they're they're still people. They just made a series of decisions that took them in a very different direction.

[00:04:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever played a character that you absolutely hate, like somebody that you just, you could not-- you obviously would do well, you know, portraying this character--but that you just could not align with who they were, so to speak.

[00:04:33] Jaja Smith: Role-wise, not yet. I, I'm sure that that role, that's coming, but I did an audition for a, a deputy--or I was an officer--I was an officer and he was just very pompous. And you, he couldn't be told anything by his superiors or anything like that. And for me, I was just like, "This guy's just a, just a jerk." Ooh, if I had to meet this person, I want to like fight this person or something. Like, I'm just like, why, why are people like this? But we'll see if I get the role. So then I'll be able to say yes. Yes, Lindsey. I did.

[00:05:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair enough. We'll check back in. Okay. Perfect. So, obviously your career as an actor, it sounds like, you know, you've gotten to do a few different roles now--have you done mostly things for film? Have you also done any theater work or is it sort of a combination of all of that?

[00:05:32] Jaja Smith: So thus far from me, I have done predominantly film. Now, I am not turned off to theater. Like, theater is one of those things that terrifies the heck out of me because you get one take. So it is like, if you miss a note or you forget a line, then you have to figure it out from there. And I try my best to do all of the things that scare me. So when an opportunity comes up for me to be in a play, I will jump at it. Terrified, but I will jump at it.

[00:06:05] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Yes. Somebody--I will not remember who to attribute this to--but I remember somebody once talked about how you should do something every day that scares you. It doesn't have to be big, just a little something to help you grow every day. And I kind of hung on to that. I like that idea that, you know, you can, you can be afraid and do it anyway, right?

[00:06:31] Jaja Smith: Yeah.

[00:06:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. And so then you're taking classes regularly, I'm imagining, still, is that correct?

[00:06:39] Jaja Smith: Yes. Yes, I am.

[00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So it's, it's interesting to me because you're getting paid to do this, you are a professional, but so you still place a lot of importance on your own growth and learning opportunities. Do you feel that you will continue taking classes for the foreseeable future is that sort of the way that it works, I'm not as familiar with this world. So I'm really, really curious.

[00:07:01] Jaja Smith: The, the beauty of this is you will never be a master at this, you know, because there, the basics are always something that will always require you to be brushed up on, you know, keeping sharp. This is definitely one of those industries where you, you are only as good as your last film. So when you move on to your in--in the in-between time for your previous and your latter, you still have to develop yourself and continue to sharpen, sharpen that craft, that tool of yours. So, I will take classes the rest of my life indefinitely because there's always something to be learned.

[00:07:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that perspective. Yeah. I agree with you. I think artists in general are probably like that in a lot of ways. It's just, it's art, right? So it's subjective and there's no, there's no one thing to achieve that's like, "Oh, I made it." And then there's nothing else to do, right? You can always grow and improve. And so, yeah, kudos to you. That's really, really cool.

[00:08:06] Jaja Smith: I, I was hoping somebody might tell Orson Welles the same thing because with "Citizen Kane," he created the perfect film for that time. So for him, he was like, "I don't know what else to do. You know, I'm 24 years old and I made the perfect film. So what happens now?" And so he just didn't do a whole lot.

[00:08:24]Lindsey Dinneen: And maybe if he had taken some more classes, he could have. I love it.

[00:08:28] Jaja Smith: We'll never know, you know, but we, we appreciate "Citizen Kane" and for everything that he made and created it for us. So I give it back to the, to the historian himself.

[00:08:39] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go well. Okay. So you also mentioned being a filmmaker. So what kinds of things have you been working on and what did that journey look like?

[00:08:49] Jaja Smith: I really enjoy the writing process. I truly, truly do, because for me, if I can create something that you, as the reader and my audience can read and see it playing out throughout, and it's just fluid, then I know that I'm doing my job. Personally as a writer, and you know, something else that I've learned throughout this process is I can't do it by myself. Like, there are so many pieces in so many unknowns and unknown unknowns that I'm just like, I, I can't keep it all together. So it's, it's definitely humbled me a lot to realize. And it's, it's a relief at the same time because I realized I don't have to do it all by myself. You know, I have all of these, these different, you know, actors and people in the industry who look, who just wants to create something great. And so, you know, to be able to put my script on the table and say, "Hey, what do you guys think about this?" And everybody jumps on board. It's encouraging. You know, I think it's really encouraging. And I think there's a lot of people here in Cincinnati and you know, all over the, all over the world who just want to get that start. And sometimes you don't know where to go. So, you know, for me just to be able to kind of jump into things, it's just really, really exciting.

[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any current projects in the works either for your filmmaking or for acting currently?

[00:10:19] Jaja Smith: No. I did just brush the dust off of a project that I had written a little while ago and I have a feeling it may be coming to fruition here soon.

[00:10:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, how exciting. Okay. Well, we'll have to keep in touch in and find out what that all looked like. I'm excited. Excellent. Okay. And so then I know all of this is only a small little snippet of all the different things that you do. You recently started a podcast, is my understanding. You want to share a little bit about that and that journey?

[00:10:52] Jaja Smith: Yes. So "Just a Thought" is one of the things that terrified me because, you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to have a solid content or talk too much or not talk enough. But for me, "Just a Thought" has been--it's, it's a vehicle for people to take, you know, situations and, you know, we, we are one mind. So to be able to give a secondary perspective on, you know, different situations that we all go through and to be able to-- I'm geeky in the sense of, I love philosophy, you know, Seneca, Emerson , Socrates, the whole thing. And to be able to take the thoughts and the practices of these philosophers and make them applicable to today and the situations that, you know, we may come to come with, come into contact with. So, I just really want to spread positivity and help people wherever I can. And so I saw that the the podcast may be the best way to do it. And, you know, with each thought that I have, for every episode, I realized that I'm truly just talking to myself. If anything, it's just like a reaffirmation journal entry. And that ends up being this really nice thing that I can have and carry with me and, you know, help other people along the way.

[00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. So is it something that it's, it is just your thoughts, or do you have guests? Is it kind of interview based or is it mostly just, you know, taking your, your own learning and ideas and kind of putting them into positive, you know, affirmations for, for yourself and others?

[00:12:31] Jaja Smith: It's funny you should ask that because I just posted last week my first episode, but it's a baby. Yeah, we are, we are the baby steps. So for me, my first episode was on my own, but I know that, you know, come time--because everybody has a story-- I want to open up the door for people to be able to share that story. It was, it was really interesting and I was so grateful for this. I posted my first episode and then I had someone stop me at the gym and was like, "Hey, I listened to this." And how relatable it was to something that they just went through. And I was like, "Okay. I, I have to have you talk about this and we have to pick this up apart." and I was like, "This is, this is amazing!" So I was like, this wouldn't have happened if I didn't do this. And so it was just a really, really special moment. And so I will definitely be having people on to be able to tell their story, because again, I am one conscious mind and I don't think we are supposed to work on a linear plane. So I would definitely love to, you know, bring some people on and have a couple episodes where I just talk about what, you know, it was weighing on my heart that day.

[00:13:44] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. I love that. I think magic happens with collaboration and I think it's exciting that you can do some of both. And I think that's the perfect platform for that. And, oh, what a great story too about, you know, that immediate feedback from somebody who goes, "Hey, Thank you. I, I've been there too. And that was such a helpful perspective." I mean, gosh, talk about encouragement right out the gate. I love it. That's fantastic. Good. I'm so glad.

[00:14:12] Jaja Smith: My coffee that morning tasted so sweet.

[00:14:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love it. Yes. Excellent. Well, okay. So I know you kind of refer to yourself as an influencer and podcasting is obviously a fantastic way to do that, but you have other avenues for art as well if I'm not mistaken. Do you want to share about some of the other things that you're involved with as well?

[00:14:32] Jaja Smith: Yes. So I've recently, in the last couple of months, have dabbled in the art of photography. And I never realized because I've been in front of the camera so much, you know, as an actor and as a model that I'd never realized, you know, just how much it does for the, the eye of a photographer and the heart of the model. Because I, I think oftentimes like modeling gets lost in translation of, "Oh, you're just pick a pose and you and the photographer shoots it." But it's like, no, this is a story being told here. Like, I, you are, you are choosing an emotion. Like if I ever modeled for anyone I ask, "What is one emotion that you want us to sell? What is the story that we're telling here?" And now it just becomes this, this beautiful, like, play back and forth between the photographer and the model that the people who see the final product get to get to kind of live through. You know, people admire the photo.

[00:15:38] But, you know, I realized when I, you know, show my friends who are creatives, they're like, oh, you're, there's confidence here, but you're dealing with something in this photo and it's just, it's just this really cool thing. So to know that, you know, I was able to capture--'cause I'm not always playing myself when I'm playing a model--but to be able to say that they, they saw what, what my self and the photographer, or myself in the model were going for, that lets me know that I did my job. And then as a photographer to see the confidence boost in the model, you know, because I I've shot a lot of people who'd never really saw themselves as models before. And so to be able to shoot them and kind of bring that to life and just see this, this vigor in them, I'm just like, ah, this is a high, this is why it's harder for us to do this. So for me, that's probably been the most special part about that particular art.

[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's such a great perspective. I'm so glad that you shared that with us, 'cause I think, like you said, there are misconceptions about maybe modeling or, or even acting and things like that, where we just, those of us who aren't part of it don't necessarily understand everything that goes into it and what it takes. And it, like you said, it's not just standing there and making a pose, it's telling a story and it's, and it's work. I mean, you know, there's no-- Right. I mean, so, that's so interesting. I'm actually, it kind of begs a question of, what are some of the misconceptions that you have had to maybe help overcome or help educate when it comes to some of the art forms that you're involved with, maybe specifically modeling and acting, even filmmaking? I'm sure, you know, there are some misconceptions that you kind of are able to help people understand, "Oh, it's actually this."

[00:17:40] Jaja Smith: Oh, yes. So for acting, especially because that is my meat and potatoes, my bread and butter. So I love unpacking these things with acting. It requires a certain level of vulnerability. You can't just jump in front of a camera and then play yourself because you're lying to yourself. When I do a scene with my scene partner, it requires a certain level of trust not just in the person that you're doing the scene with, but with yourself. You have to let go of a lot of inhibitions and say, "Okay, I'm fully here. I'm fully present, not just in front of this class, but as this person that I have chosen to play. I have a job to do first and foremost." I have a responsibility to this person that I'm playing to do them justice. I look at acting sometimes as I am the PR, I am the lawyer of the character that I am portraying. And so I have a due diligence to make sure that their story gets told and that they get what it is that they need. So, and I never want to cheat that because I think that that's something really special.

[00:18:53] Another misconception is that it's, it's easy. You know, I feel the longer I'm in this industry, there is such a business to this. You know, it's not just, I'm this pretty person, and I'm going to show up and they're going to pick me now. A lot of the job is, do you look the part? But that only gets you the job, but when you get there, you can easily lose the job because you didn't give the director what they wanted. So that's another reason why continuing to sharpen your tool, your acting ability, is so important because you have to keep the job just like any of them. The business aspect of this industry is, is something that I am progressively learning. I'm learning to ask a lot of questions almost to the annoying fault, but I just want to understand it so that way I can be the best person I can be on a set, for the director or with my partners, the rest of the cast and crew. I just want to make sure that I'm doing due diligence where I can.

[00:19:59] So I think, it's very easy for people to get caught up in just watching a movie and saying, "Oh, I can do that." I promise it's so much deeper than that. You know, 'cause I'm sure we've all thought it at one point or another. You know, I remember being a kid and watching "Space Jam," and you know, you've watched it a hundred times. So now you like start moving with the movie and you start quoting it. And you know, I, it's funny 'cause we've always, we've all, all been actors at a time in our life, from birth or a baby. You know, my, my coach, he made a point, he was like, "When you wanted to eat, you cried. You didn't have to cry, but you just cried. And then, because you knew you would get what you wanted." And so, throughout life, we do what we believe is necessary to get that thing. Or, you know what, we as actors call a bridge. It's like, "I want this. So to do this, I will do this to get my scene partner on my mom to give me that juice." You know what I mean? Like, when you break it down like that, you're like, "Oh, I guess I really have been doing this for longer than five years, but I've just been doing it, you know, with the intent of acting for five years." So those are just some of the things that off the top of my head, I would say are common misconceptions.

[00:21:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for, yeah, shedding some light into that. And I, I love that. I think that a lot of times, you know, art is perceived to be very glamorous. If you're an artist on any level, it's very glamorous and, you know, there are those moments where it feels, it feels lovely and very, very glamorous, but then there's all the hard work behind it. And I think it's important to talk about that too, because time is not equally spent. The glamor happens, what 5%?

[00:21:52] Jaja Smith: Right. And that's at a certain level. Like that's not a thing right now. It's a lot of hurry up and wait like, "Oh, we need you here at seven o'clock. Now you're going to sit here for six hours before we actually need you." It's not this beautiful, it's not this glamorous thing that we see on TV by any means. Like this is such false advertising.

[00:22:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup, yup. Yup, exactly. But it's good. And, when you're willing to put in the work, there are those opportunities for such incredible reward, but, but it is hard work. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm curious, are there any particular moments that you've had that really stand out to you as sort of basically moments to remember, where you may be encountered art or you were a part of art and you just had this like encounter that was something to tuck away and think about later?

[00:22:43] Jaja Smith: So my first big city audition was in New York City. And you know, this was probably my first, first year. Yes, it was my first year in acting, like going to pursue this as an endeavor and it, it was such a special moment because I learned so much. I learned that my confidence will tell the casting director everything that they need to know, and without it, you know, if they, if I don't believe in me, then neither can they. I would say there was a feature length film that I was a part of and I had a monologue, and it was just one of those things to where I... I've always learned, I've always been taught by my coach to never break, you know, let the director tell you to cut. And, you know, I'm doing this monologue and I know that I'm missing a line, that my face gave me away that I forgot, but I kept going. And then at the end, the person that I was delivering this monologue to that when the director said, cut said, "Hey, man, that was great." So it was just one of those beautiful moments to where it's, if you trust the character, the words don't matter so much. Like people will forget what you said and remember how you made them feel.

[00:24:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:24:07] Jaja Smith: So now that was a really special one. So those are, those are the two.

[00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Those are great. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I have a couple questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that, all subjective.

[00:24:21] Jaja Smith: Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So the first one is , how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:24:30] Jaja Smith: Art is expression. Art is a hundred percent expression. You know, whether you are a painter or you are a, a sketch artist or a actor, or whatever your canvas is, it's this release of energy. Some people don't know how to articulate themselves. So for them to be able to have this outlet, it's this beautiful thing. And then when it comes out, sometimes it's angry. Sometimes it's heartbroken. I remember very vividly my dad passed away on the night of an acting class, but I had to go because I didn't know how to handle my emotions outside of that. And you know, my, my acting class is my family, but I just needed that, that outlet, you know, it was just one of those things. It's like air almost. I think for a lot of other artists out there, I think art is their microphone to tell the world how they really feel, and in the way that best articulates it for them.

[00:25:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:41] Jaja Smith: To be honest, because we as people have dealt with enough bologna sandwich that, you know, it doesn't do anything for anyone, if you're just doing something for the sake of the adoration or the sake of a finished product. But if you're true and you're intentional and you're authentic, I mean, that is the product that people can truly get on board with. You know, I think that that is to not just to people, but also to the work itself, and then to the artists, because there have been a few times I may have flubbed or played it safer. And then, you know, I stepped back and the scene is over and, you know, I was just like, "What are you doing?" Like you, you know that you cheated yourself and you're like, "Why did I do that?" So the biggest thing to me is just be honest, be authentic with your work and everything that you do. You know, I don't see any need to talk about things that you don't understand. You know, like if, if you're a music artist, that's like, you know, tell your story. You know, you have a story. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's yours and it deserves to be told.

[00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question--and I'll define my terms a little bit--is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to an artist who puts something out into the world and provides some context behind that? Whether it's show notes or a title or the inspiration behind it, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her work out there, but doesn't provide context, and essentially leaves it completely up to the viewer to interpret it the way they will.

[00:27:21] Jaja Smith: That's such a good question because I, I can appreciate both. And Jordan Peele is, is such a believer of the exclusive, you know, he just kind of puts a film out and he says, "You know, what's it mean to you? Like, what do you see?" And when it's exclusive it creates such a beautiful dialogue for people because, if you don't know, then you're just sharing perspectives with everybody who's seen this piece of work. But if it's inclusive--you know, I'm definitely going to side with exclusive--but if it's inclusive and you can allow people to see the project through your eyes or the piece of art through your eyes and how you intended it... But I really think, art should be left up for interpretation because when you go to a movie, you're not looking to see how the director wants you to see it. You're picking the film apart scene by scene and trying to understand, "Okay, I want to know what the main character was like before the movie started. And like, why are they like this?" I think we live in a society where we do enough being told what to think and letting that be it. But for me, I think art is truly meant to be exclusive in the sense of, you know, think for yourself and tell me what you see. And nine times out of 10, they're going to tell you that you're right, because it is your thought and it is what my art says to you.

[00:28:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I liked that because that's a pretty unique perspective in the way that you communicated that of, of being able to think for yourself and interpret it the way that is meaningful to you. And I think there's a lot of value there. So that's, that's definitely cool. Thank you for sharing that. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your stories and all the exciting things you have going on, and just, you're very inspiring. I'm so excited to continue to kind of watch your journey. And I would love if anyone who is listening to this episode would like to get in contact with you or follow your path, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:29:42] Jaja Smith: Yes. So I am on Instagram. My Instagram is Jaja.Smith. Very simple, very plain. My podcast is "Just a Thought." And I am also on Facebook as Jaja Smith. You know, I post a lot of when my projects are coming out, I will make sure to dish all of those things out there. And, you know, I'm, I'm pretty approachable. You know, if you reach out to me, you have a thought or something, then I'm very quick and very open to just sharing a dialogue because life is short, you know, you never know who you're gonna meet in life.

[00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Well, and so what would be your one biggest piece of advice for someone who would be interested in being an actor?

[00:30:32] Jaja Smith: Find a great class. And I mean, you just have to start. I think a lot of times, a lot of actors, especially here, locally that I know for sure, we stand idle whether it be fear, or we just don't think we'll be good at it. I think it's very important to just move, and it does the body good. Find a good class and absorb as much as you can, and understand that the world is your playground. I can't tell you how many times that I've gone about my day and then just met somebody that I didn't know, and I just played a completely different person just to see, is this authentic? Does it work? And then, of course I leave the person and I say, "Hey, by the way...."-- and then I go back to being who I am, and I'm a local actor-- "did that, did I sell that to you?" And they're like, "Dude, that was amazing!" It's just, it's fun, not just for myself. And it keeps the, the craft of acting very, very light and fun and enjoyable. But it does the same thing for the, for the people around me. So just continually be a student of the game. That's, that's probably the biggest thing that I would say, and just find a class and do it, because you might be the next Robert Downey Jr. or Cate Blanchett or something, and you just don't give yourself that opportunity.

[00:32:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Great advice, thank you so much. Thank you so much again for being here and sharing your stories and all of your adventures. I just so appreciate it. And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:32:27] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In today's episode, I welcome Jami Robben! Jami is a professional dancer with VidaDance Company as well as a student majoring in journalism and minoring in Spanish at the Univeristy of Missouri. She shares about her unique path from teaching herself dance movements from videos on YouTube to taking in-person dance classes to apprenticing with a professional company and beyond, as well as her latest endeavor, being the Director of National Dance Week Kansas City. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is of Jami dancing in a performance with VidaDance!)

Get in touch with Jami Robben: robben.jami@gmail.com

Learn more about National Dance Week Kansas City: https://www.facebook.com/NDWKC | https://www.instagram.com/nationaldanceweekkc/

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Episode 38 - Jami Robben

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very delighted to have as my guest today, the absolutely wonderful Jami Robben. She is a dancer, currently, a student at college, and also has done so many other different kinds of art forms. And I'm just so excited to have her as my guest today. Thank you, Jami, so much for being here.

[00:01:00] Jami Robben: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited!

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, please do tell me a little bit about maybe your background, how you first started getting into maybe not just dance, but other art forms as well, and sort of where you are now, if that's okay.

[00:01:16] Jami Robben: Yeah, yeah, of course. So I actually started out as a swimmer. I grew up swimming. That was kind of my thing. I did it with my sister and so I never really was put in any kind of, like, dance or anything like that. And especially having five older sisters, you know, they, they all kind of did it and were interested in it. So when it came to me, my parents were kinda like, "Okay, we'll just let her figure it out." So it really wasn't until--I think it was the 2008 Olympics--when I saw gymnastics. And I was like, "Okay, like, I definitely want to do that. That looks so much fun." So I started taking gymnastics classes, but the only thing I would do is the floor. I hated the bars and the beam and the volt, and I just refused to do it. And I remember my gymnastics coach went up to my dad and was like, "You know, she--I don't know if this is the sport for her, she just does not want to do anything. And you know, maybe you should try putting her in dance too. Just seems like she really likes the floor."

[00:02:26]And then I went home and was watching TV and I saw "Dance Moms" and I was like, "Okay, maybe I should start dancing." But at that point, my parents were kinda like, "I feel like you've tried a lot of sports and just haven't really stuck with it." So maybe wait it out a little bit. So they didn't end up putting me in any classes. So I ended up going on YouTube and just YouTubed doing all sorts of different videos and tutorials with dance. And of course on "Dance Moms," they'd go and do competitions. And I was like, "I want to do that too." So I ended up enrolling myself in a competition with no studio or no training. And, I choreographed myself a dance, made myself a costume, cut myself some music, and went to the competition and ended up getting third place. And ever since then, I just kept dancing, and it wasn't until I met Lindsey, when I first started taking actual dance classes and training with that. And ever since I've just been dancing along.

[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. Yeah. Okay. So, so many questions are popping in my mind. First of all, kudos to you for being so brave to--I cannot imagine your level of bravery, honestly--to be like, "Okay, I've learned a few things off of YouTube. I kind of know sort of the way that things go, and I'm just going to dive in and do it." So, wow.

[00:04:06] Jami Robben: I think I didn't even know the weight that a competition had on a lot of people. And I just kind of walked in and was like, "Okay, this is cool." And then I'm seeing all these girls, you know, like training, like ridiculous amounts for these competitions. And I was like, "I did not realize they were this serious."

[00:04:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Probably a bit of a culture shock, but honestly, coming at it that way was probably a lot better because, I mean, I'm sure you felt a little bit of nervousness or nervous energy, but you wouldn't have had nearly the level that maybe some of these other girls and boys did when they were coming in from a really, really serious, like "we have to win" kind of mentality. So, there you go!

[00:04:50] Jami Robben: Well, I definitely remember being nervous, but it, it probably wasn't for the same reasons the other dancers were nervous. I think I was more nervous that I was like, "I don't even know." I just remember being so nervous, but not even about like forgetting my dance or anything. It was more so I was like, "I just paid all this money of my allowance to this competition. I hope I get a trophy."

[00:05:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww! Priorities, people. Let's be real.

[00:05:20] Jami Robben: I was like, "I don't care what I place, I just want a trophy to take home."

[00:05:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww, and you did! That's fantastic. I love it. I love it. Okay. And I'm so curious. So do you think having had the background--and granted you didn't continue with these, which is totally fine--but having the background in swimming and gymnastics, I mean, obviously those kinds of activities are really strength building. Do you think they ended up helping you in any way in your dance in the future?

[00:05:49] Jami Robben: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think swim really brought up my endurance to be able to perform, well, when I did gymnastics. And then of course, gymnastics, you learn so many acro tricks that you can use in dance in, especially in competition dance. I feel like acro and tricks is really big in the competition dance world. And so I feel like it definitely gave me an upper hand in the fact that I wasn't necessarily trained in dance, but I could do acro tricks. And so I guess it gave me a little bit more of a dancer kind of, you know, way to compete. But I, for sure think, if I didn't have those two backgrounds, I don't think I would have kept doing competitions, 'cause I don't think I would've gotten anywhere with them.

[00:06:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. The endurance for sure. And that's something that's hard to build up that kind of stamina if you aren't doing cardio related things. Even as a dancer, it can be difficult 'cause we do a lot of bursts of cardio and then a lot of more sort of resting and then bursts. And so it's, it's harder to build up that endurance over time. So that's cool. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So, and then, okay, so you had that first competition and then how many competitions did you do on your own before we started getting connected and, you know, you started taking classes?

[00:07:13] Jami Robben: Yeah, I think I ended up doing, I remember doing-- the first year I competed, I did one regional and one national. And then after that, it really was just a matter of I would compete and, you know, spend all my allowance money 'cause at that point I still didn't have a job. I was, I think I was 14. And so I would save up my money and compete, be broke, save up my money. So it really was just a matter of whenever I had enough money to compete again, I would compete. And so I think I was ending up doing maybe three regionals and one national for maybe three years before we got in contact. I think it was three years.

[00:07:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Yeah, that sounds about right, I think. Yeah. And you know, what's so amazing to me and, I have the great privilege of calling Jami my friend, and, but I've been her teacher as well, but I am so, so always so impressed with Jami because she is such a hard worker. And when she sets her mind to something, she's going to do all the hard work it takes to get there, not just skate by, which I've always really admired. But speaking of which we have to tell the story, this, this poor girl, I, I, I have a bad/good habit of always sort of pushing people to their next level. Very, very first thing poor Jami did with our company was, I totally threw her into this piece. So, so her and her mom and I met, and it was back in the fall and then we were having a performance coming up in the winter. And I, I met her mom and her mom told me all about Jami and, you know, what she was kind of interested in doing and showed me some videos. And, and I was really, really impressed with how much she had been able to do pick up on her own from YouTube. I mean, that's frankly, anyone listening, that's like a novelty story. Most of the time you cannot learn as well as Jami did off of videos just to--for context. But she's again such a hard worker that she really put time and effort into to learning. And so then we connected and, you know, hit it off. And then your first experience in any kind of like formal setting, poor thing, was to jump into rehearsal with three professional dancers. And you, and how did that feel? I mean, oh my gosh, you know, looking back I always thought, "I know you can do this because I could see your raw talent." I could see your drive and ambition, but like when I look back, I think, "Oh my gosh, I really put a lot of pressure on you."

[00:09:54] Jami Robben: Yeah, I remember. Well, first of all, I appreciate those kind words. So nice of you to say, but I just remember being, I was so excited, first of all, I could not believe I was going to be able to dance with professional dancers and be able to go into a studio because I'm pretty sure when we had rehearsals for the performance, that was my first time in an actual studio. And so I was so excited. I was seeing all the studios' like competition trophies on the wall. And I was like, "This is the coolest thing ever." And then we started rehearsal and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know anything that they're talking about." and I was like, "Okay, I need to go home, and like Google all these terms." And, and, you know, and so I would go through with rehearsal, we would learn a chunk, I would go home, I would look up all of the terms, make sure I had all the technique right and everything. And then the day of the performance. Oh my gosh. I was so scared. I was really nervous. I think the thing I was the most nervous for it was for getting the dance just 'cause I, I had never done anything with other dancers.

[00:11:07] So, you know, if you forget your solo, it's, it's a solo. It doesn't matter what you do really. And especially because the competitions, I wasn't affiliated with any kind of studio. So it was the only thing I could mess up is like, you know, it, there was no pressure to it. It was very pressure-free. And then this performance, I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I forget the dance, oh, they're never going to ask me to dance with them again." And all this stuff, you know, I just like putting all this pressure on myself and it ended up being probably one of my favorite experiences. But looking back at it, I was telling you a little bit ago, how I resurfaced the video that my mom took of it. And I was just like, "I hope no one ever sees this video of me dancing. It's just, oh my gosh, you can see the fear on my face the whole time. And you know, you and the other dancers just dancing beautifully, like effortless, slowly and gracefully. And then I am trying my hardest not to forget this dance and you can tell, but, but the good thing was, you know, it was only uphill from there. I feel like after that, I was like, "Okay, you know what? Like Lindsey asked me to come back. So something went right with that. So it's okay."

[00:12:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And then after that performance is when you started taking classes and was that a big change for you? I mean, did, did it feel just weird to kind of go from like, learning on your own to then having a much more like structured environment with other people and kind of just really honing on like, "Oh, this is basic technique. Like I have to get back to the basics. Was that, was that a weird transition for you?"

[00:12:59] Jami Robben: Yeah, I think the thing I was most likely kind of shocked by was how, like, detail-oriented, especially ballet was. I was just so used to these YouTube tutorials, and a lot of them that I was doing wasn't necessarily technique. And if it was, it was like how to do a pirouette. It wasn't a ballet class or anything like that. And so a lot of it was just like dance tutorials and dance combos. And so it was at first, I, I almost felt like it was, you know, more--I don't even know how to describe--not taking a step back in the sense where it was like easier, but more so like slower-paced than just learning a combo off of YouTube and calling it a day, but more so like learning the positions and everything technique-based. And it was kind of like putting a name to something. I kind of recognize from the things I was learning on YouTube, but I feel like the biggest change was, when you learn things on YouTube, obviously it's mirrored. And so, you know, the people I was learning off YouTube, they were all right turners, but I was turning on my left side because it was mirrored.

[00:14:16] And I had no idea that that was not kind of the normal, like most people were right turners. And so I remember coming into class and everyone's turning on the right, like really, really well. And I was like, "How, how did they turn so well on the right? Like that's not normal." And it was like, "Oh my gosh, you're a lefty?" I was like, "No, I turn on my right foot." They're like,"That's, that's a left, like you, you're a lefty." I was like, "I learned everything backwards." So I feel like after that, I was just, I, it was kind of having to relearn a lot of things that off of YouTube I learned incorrectly or backwards, honestly. And so it was weird seeing how things are supposed to be in, in learning like my placements were wrong and stuff like that. So a lot of it was even more so like corrective work than like learning from the beginning, kind of trying to correct some of the things I taught myself wrong, but it was so nice, especially to be able to be surrounded by other students kind of going on the same path and, you know, you feel inspired by them and you want to work harder just in a class setting. So it was really cool to be able to do that.

[00:15:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then, so after you started classes, you basically have then been a part of the company ever since. So after that , we invited her to be an apprentice with the company. And so Jami performed with us as an apprentice all throughout high school. And then at graduation, that was a really fun moment. Do you want to talk about that?

[00:15:51] Jami Robben: As an apprentice with the company, I thought that was like the peak of my life. Like I thought it was just the coolest thing ever, especially because everyone in VidaDance Company is just so kind and professional. I feel like a lot of them are rare to find in, especially the group that we have. It's just so special. And I just felt so lucky to be able to learn from such professional and amazing people. And so when I was an apprentice, I just, I never even really thought that, you know, there was a next step. I was just like, "Okay, this is the best." Like I'm so happy. And then at my graduation party , Lindsey came up and she made an announcement that I was being promoted to full company member. And I bawled my eyes out. I was, I was so taken off guard, but in such a good way. And I still have, she gave me a little stuffed animal flamingo for kind of the company mascot, and I still have it on my bed. And it's probably one of my best memories of my high school experience or honestly like my entire life up to this point. And yeah, after that, I just have been able to be full company member and still dance with the company, even throughout college, which has been such a blessing, especially just because I love dancing and I feel like in college, it's very much academic-based and so being able to dance and have that outlet while I am in school, it's just been so great. So I'm so thankful to still be able to be a member of the company.

[00:17:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, and we of course love having you. So it's always exciting. There's always these moments of excitement when people are like, "Okay, well, when is Jami coming back?" Because you know, we have performances throughout the year that, you know, unfortunately since she's at school, she doesn't always get to participate in, but, but the summer is always a really good time. And sometimes the winter too. And it's always like, "Count down the days, when is, when is Jami coming back to rehearsals?" is always fun for us too. We, we love having you be a part of the company, but...

[00:18:04] Jami Robben: Awww, I love that!

[00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, so, okay. So now you are in school. So do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, maybe what you're pursuing and then kind of-- and I know everything is so hazy, of course, so, it's, you know, no worries about kind of the future--but are you, are there certain things that you're kind of working towards, or tell us maybe a little bit about your college experience?

[00:18:29] Jami Robben: Yeah, so I went into college thinking I was pursuing just a journalism degree. I wasn't exactly sure what in journalism, but I really enjoyed writing and everything with that. And then I wanted to continue my Spanish and so I decided to go in with majoring in journalism and minoring in Spanish, but I was still pretty confused because I knew that I loved dancing so much and I wanted to do something with it in the future, but I just didn't really know how to pursue that while kind of pursuing a degree in journalism. And so going to college, I just remember freshman year was so--I was just so confused. The whole year I was in the GEN EDs, which didn't help because those are classes that every freshman has to take. So none of them really have to do with your major. So I was in like math and English and science, and I just was not enjoying it at all.

[00:19:29] And I was really questioning if I was making the right decision by going to college, and if I should be doing something else. I just didn't feel like I was making the right decision, but it wasn't really until first semester, my sophomore year, when I finally applied for my emphasis area, which is in strategic communications and I have an emphasis in strategic communications on data journalism. So it's a whole, it's a whole train of things, but I, when I started doing classes in my emphasis area, I started really enjoying school and feeling like I was making a good choice and that it--just because I was majoring in data journalism, it didn't mean that I had to give up dance. And I, I feel like it took me so long to realize that there's no specific path, there's no steps. You don't have to graduate and then get a degree in your major and stick with it for the rest of your life. And I feel like once I realized that, I just took so much pressure off of myself. And so I was dancing with the competitive dance team at Mizzou. And so I put, started putting a lot more effort and time into that.

[00:20:44] I started getting involved with our homecoming. We have an annual Fling event, which all--a lot of--organizations on campus will compete dances that go towards points, 'cause homecoming at Mizzou is this whole thing that everyone tries to win. And so I choreographed a few dances for that. And with that, I started finding more of a balance between dance and school and realizing that I can do both. But I don't have to make a decision and stick with only that and pursue that in the future. And so that's where I'm at now. I have been dancing a lot more in school and it's just been a, really, a lot better of a balance. And the dance takes a lot of stress off of me with school, but I'm still really enjoying my major. And so for the future, I'm just kinda gonna wait it out and see what happens. But I feel like the people, I feel like students all the time, they put so much pressure on themselves to know exactly what they're doing in life. And so I feel like once I took that pressure off of me, I'm just kind of chilling and seeing what the next step is when I get there. So that's about where I'm at now.

[00:22:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. I think that there is this misconception that is very widely spread that you have to have it all figured out. And that is so not true. As any adult should tell you if they're being honest--which you're an adult now, too, I don't mean it that way--but you know, an older adult who's, you know, been through some stuff should tell you, you don't have to have it all figured out. It comes, it comes as it, as life unfolds. And that just makes it so much more fun and adventurous.

[00:22:34] Jami Robben: Exactly.

[00:22:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and then you're more open to opportunities that come your way that you might not have had in your original plan, so to speak, but that might be perfect. So yeah. I love it. Awesome. Well, that is exciting. And so I'm curious, with the journalism aspect, you know, of course writing is an art form in and of itself. Now you're kind of combining the science with your data emphasis, but do you find that that is another creative outlet for you on some level to be able to be a writer and to be expressing yourself that way too?

[00:23:13] Jami Robben: Oh yeah. Especially when I'm in school, I, you know, I don't always have like a big studio accessible to me to where I can just go dance and kind of relieve my stress. And I live in the, you know, this tiny shoebox room when I'm at school. And so it's very hard to kind of move around in it. And so I feel like now more than ever, I've definitely been using writing as an outlet, and and even in school with my assignments, I really enjoy writing papers, which I know scares a lot of people. But for me, it's like, I hate tests. I hate projects, but it's like writing papers, I'm okay with. And so even with that, I've found a lot of enjoyment with it. And just being able to kind of just start writing and seeing where I'm at mentally and kind of, you know, mapping where I'm at, so I can look back at it and see kind of how much I've grown or improved with my mentality towards things. And so I've really been enjoying writing and journaling every night. I think it's such a good stress reliever for sure.

[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then pivoting back to dance. Now you've had some pretty unique opportunities--and you've, you've touched on it a little bit--but to choreograph quite a bit, which is usually a skill that's developed--not all the time, but often--with the dancer it's developed later, just because of circumstances or kind of what your, your goals are, but you are becoming quite a, an adept choreographer and you have so many layers to what you do and stuff, but it's interesting how have you kind of evolved over time. Because again, originally you were choreographing these solos for yourself that might miraculously morph onstage, shall we say. Jami's a little notorious for this, which I love, but, oh my gosh, when we give her a solo, you just don't know what you're going to see every night.

[00:25:17] Jami Robben: That is very true.

[00:25:19]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it, but how has that changed for you going from like, you know, you choreographing on yourself to then setting works that involve multiple people and trying to figure out layering when you're not necessarily a part of the piece. How, how did that all kind of work out for you?

[00:25:34] Jami Robben: Yeah, I mean, like you said, when I was choreographing dances for myself, I would kind of do like a skeleton outline and then just whatever happened on stage would happen. And I just, I didn't even know what was gonna--what I was going to do until I was doing it, honestly, and that kind of became my thing and it wasn't always a good thing. Like sometimes I would work so hard on choreographing a dance for myself and absolutely love what it became. And then as soon as I get on stage, I would just, it's like, I didn't do a single step that I tried to do. And so I was like, what was the point of me choreographing that? But when I-- I think the first dance I choreographed that was for other people was for National Dance Week for the company. And with that, I believe it was for, maybe it was Fringe. I'm not, I don't know. I don't even know. I feel like a lot of them blend together.

[00:26:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I know!

[00:26:36] Jami Robben: I think we did it for Fringe and National Dance Week, is what it was. It was ...

[00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too.

[00:26:41] Jami Robben: Yeah, it was "On My Own," and it was maybe four or five dancers. And I remember trying to choreograph it in my living room at home and just being so confused on how to do like formations and how to do even, you know, like choreography where all the dancers are moving together. And so I remember the first dance that I did, all of the choreography was very individual. There wasn't a lot of like work together or like partner work necessarily. And if it was, it was, it was very brief just because I had no idea how to do that and how to do it in my living room and, and try and give it to other people. And, so I remember that dance was hard. And then the second dance was another one for National Dance Week. And that one, I felt better about it. I felt like I was kind of getting down the process of choreographing it and making sure it had counts just because the first dance I did, I, I had never counted my choreography for my solos.

[00:27:54] And so I remember, you know, they were, the dancers were asking for counts, which obviously you need, so you can do it at the same time. That's kind of how that works. And I was like, "Counts? Like, why do you want counts? Like you don't need counts." And so the second dance, I was like, "Okay, like, that makes sense. They need counts so they can do it together. It's not a solo. This is a group dance." And so I kind of had a go back and relearn how to choreograph stuff and make it so it was cohesive and it was an actual step that I could explain. And that was technical to where they could also be doing it the same. And so I feel like it was definitely a process of going from just choreographing stuff for myself that if I messed up or did something completely different, like it didn't matter, to choreographing a group dance where all the dancers need to be doing the same thing. And it has to tell a story and they have to do it together. So it was definitely a roller coaster trying to figure out how to do all of that, but it was such a great learning experience. And I'm, I'm so happy. I was able to be able to do that.

[00:29:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, every single dancer goes through that because it is a transition learning how to put together patterns and some things also that you, you work out beautifully in your head, you do in real life and you realize very quickly, "Oh, that's not physically possible." Yeah. And then it's just a matter of tweaking and kind of being open to the fact that, you know, different bodies move in different ways. And so some things that might actually look beautiful on your own body because of your own abilities or flexibility or whatever, it might look a little different on someone else, and kind of being willing to adapt. So yeah, that's, that's a normal thing for choreographers to go through and it's definitely a bonus that you got to kind of learn it early and then, you know, now you've gotten to use it at school and all those things. That's great. Yeah, for sure.

[00:30:04] Jami Robben: Yeah. And I'm so grateful to have been able to do it with the VidaDancers, because I, I know for a fact, if I had gone somewhere else and was trying to learn with them, they probably would not have been as gracious as the VidaDancers were for me, trying to figure everything out on the spot. So I'm, I'm very grateful that it was with, with you guys.

[00:30:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I think, I think our, our dancers--and I'm so, so thankful for this group all the time--but I think our dancers are very good about kind of gently--and they do this with me too, they do it with everyone-- they, they sort of gently point out when things might not possible. Or they'll say, "You know , like I see what you're trying to accomplish here, but it looks like maybe if we did it this way, that could work better." And that's, that's our whole environment is very collaborative and how can we make the best art together, which is, is unique, but I also love it. And then it's, it doesn't feel so intimidating as a choreographer because I think also, again, kudos to you for your bravery, choreographing on your peers is hard enough, let alone when you're the apprentice and then you're choreographing on professionals. Like it's, it's already difficult and then you're adding another layer. So yeah. Kudos to you for again, stepping up to my, my challenge is where I'm like, "Hey, you want to choreograph?" And you're like, "Sure!" And, oh my gosh, you are so amazing. Anyway, so, and then also, I know you've had a lot of opportunities to teach both now through school, not at school, but through local studios. And then you've taught elsewhere too. Has that been kind of a learning curve too?

[00:31:45] Jami Robben: Yeah, I definitely the first time I kind of transitioned more into a teacher role at school was with one of the local studios. And I remember, I mean this specific studio, they're not, it just ended up not being for me. Just kind of the way they, they ran the studio, but when they first hired me, it was through a girl that I'm on the competitive dance team with. She works there and they were needing another teacher. And I just remember, I walked in my first day and she just was like, "Okay , you're going to go teach ballet. It's in the studio. Go ahead." And she didn't really know my, like, skill set or anything. And I told her, I was like, "I am not very technical at ballet. I, I need, I need a lot of improvement to be able to teach ballet level, to, to kids and teach them correctly. I just don't feel like I'm at that level yet." But she said it was fine and she let me teach it. And I just remember being so scared because I knew a lot of the things I was teaching these kids, I was like, "I don't even know if this is necessarily correct." And so it really limited a lot of what I was teaching them because I didn't want to teach them something and it ended up being wrong. And so I was very limited on what I could kind of do with them for class.

[00:33:20] And so after that experience, I was like, "You know, maybe teaching isn't for me. I just, I feel like I want to challenge dancers and help them grow. And I just don't know if I'm ready to do that yet." But then I ended up just trying one more time and I tried a different studio. And with this studio, I felt like they were a lot better at kind of listening to what you're comfortable with, and what your skillset is. So they allowed me instead of teaching my own classes, they let me assist classes with a teacher that's been there for 20 years and kind of shadow and be mentored by them so I can learn how to teach students. And that's what the dance studio did to me too, with, with you Lindsey, like being able to assist your classes helped so much because I had no idea even how to teach a class. And so I was so grateful for that to be able to assist you and kind of shadow your classes so that when I was able to sub at VidaDance, I knew exactly how the classes were supposed to go.

[00:34:26] And I felt so comfortable there and I knew what I was able to do and what the dancers were able to do. And so I think it just threw me through a loop when I went to school and tried a different studio and it was just so different. And after that I was like, 'Oh my gosh, I just, I don't know if this is for me." And so finding a studio at school that's similar in the way that yeah, VidaDance was where they allow me to be comfortable with what I'm doing, has been so great. And I'm, I'm really happy with the studio I'm at now. And I feel like at this rate, I'll be more comfortable teaching classes on my own in the future and having more of a technical background as I take more ballet classes and more technique classes that I can use in classes that I ended up teaching.

[00:35:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And that's so cool that you have that opportunity because I think a lot of times, that's such a great way to learn. I mean, I did the same thing at my studio growing up. I would assist, especially with the little ones' classes, and learn all the tricks and tips and all those kinds of things that help make it, you know, a good experience for everyone. And yeah, so that's, that's a great way to learn. That's very cool. And now this was another thing. Oh my gosh. I just, I--all right, folks, I just have to just totally be frank--I am definitely a person who's like, I see potential in someone and I'm like, "Okay, you can do this thing. I'm going to ask you if you can do this thing," and then they take it and run. And I'm always so proud because it's amazing. And, but I, gosh, I have--maybe it's a bad habit of like pushing people to the next level. Anyway, the point is, I did the same thing to Jami last year, and I asked if she would be interested in taking over National Dance Week Kansas City. And that is an annual event that I founded, oh gosh, now what? Four or five years ago? And it's really fun. It's just, it's a day of all sorts of different dancers, choreographers, companies, studios, anybody who wants to dance, come together for this one event. And we just perform and it's just free. It's for the community. It's just a way to kind of give back and show each other what we do. And, and it's, it's a lot of fun. And you know, about like a little over a year ago, I said to Jami, "You know, I'm kind of at a point where I personally need to transition out of this, but I, you know, I, I don't want it to die. I trust you completely with this. Would you want to take it on?" And she miraculously said yes. So tell me about that experience and like, how is that going now? Because you've had quite an experience of last year, you know, with COVID having to pivot and then, oh gosh. Tell us the story.

[00:37:25] Jami Robben: Oh yes. Well, I remember going, going to National Dance Week the first couple of years that you were running it in, it was always something I look forward to. And especially once I left for college, it was something I was always so excited to come back for and be able to perform. And so when you asked me to kind of take on this position, I was so scared. And I remember I called my parents and I was like, "Do I say yes?" Like, "Should I say no?" They were like, "You know, if, if Lindsey is saying that she believes in you for this, that means something like, you should just give it a try." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I will." And so I was excited, but I was scared at the same time. I was nervous. I was feeling all the things, but luckily you were so great at kind of walking me through what exactly needed to happen. So there wasn't ever moments where I was confused on what I was doing or, or anything like that. You just, you did a really great job of kind of transitioning into it. And so I felt like I had a better grip on what was supposed to happen and what was the event was supposed to look like from my point of view.

[00:38:37] And then right as I'm starting to feel really good about it, of course COVID happens. And I was like, "Oh great." Like, "I have no idea what the heck I'm supposed to be doing for this now." And I knew I still wanted to have the event in some way. And of course, when I was thinking this, it was still the early stages of quarantine and the shutdown. And so of course, all of us are thinking by April, we'll be completely fine. And so I'm still, you know, trying my hardest to get everything in order. And I remember I started making the schedule for the lineup for all of the dancers and then right as I'm making it, I get a call from Leawood Stage Company, which is the sponsors for our venue that we have it at. And they were just kinda like, "Yeah, this is, it's not going to happen in April." And I was like, "Okay , I guess we'll move it to August." So we spent the whole summer working on stuff for it. And of course we get to August, things are still pretty rough. So I remember I was, I felt--I was pretty bummed, of course, that that wasn't happening. But at the same time, I felt super lucky to almost have like a trial run where it wasn't necessarily all that work for nothing.

[00:40:00] It was more so all of that work to be able to practice what to do for this year, when we'll actually be able to have an event. And so I'm really grateful in a weird way that everything happened the way it did, just because I, I don't know how things would have played out if it was, you know, we actually had the event last year. I'm sure I would have forgotten something or, you know, just, I felt like I was still in the early stages of just figuring out what the bare minimum of what I needed to do to make the event happen. And so luckily that I had that run now, I kind of know the basics of it. And so I feel like I've been more able to kind of add stuff in and see where we could take it in the future, which has been really, really fun.

[00:40:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so that event is coming up. So what's the date?

[00:40:57] Jami Robben: It is April 17th at the Ironwoods Amphitheater outside.

[00:41:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah. And what's great about that venue is easy to social distance, easy to wear masks, easy to do all the things, you know, assuming that that's going to still be, you know, the case. So, and I, if I'm not mistaken, registration is still open.

[00:41:19] Jami Robben: Yes. Yes. I believe registration will be open until exactly one month before the event. So March 17th is kind of the tentative date to close registration.

[00:41:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. So if there's anyone local to the Kansas City area that's a dancer, choreographer, studio owner or whatever, just know that this is something that's free to participate in. And it's a fantastic way to share your gifts with the community. And definitely it's, it's a lot of fun. You get to see so many different kinds of dance. We also have a lot of ethnic groups that perform, and so you get to see like traditional Chinese dancing, you'll get to see usually some--oh, gosh, I'm, I am blinking, but there's always so much--some Irish steps sometimes. Yeah.

[00:42:06] Jami Robben: Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot of it. I remember the first few years when I went, I was so impressed at all of the cultural groups that were attending, and it, it definitely opens up the world of dance and just makes you see different sides of it that you don't necessarily see every day.

[00:42:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. Yeah. I've, I've loved that about it, 'cause it's just been so much fun to see different cultures come together, and that's something that unites us and it's just so fun to see dance represented that way. So, yeah, definitely. And if you're not a dancer, but you're local to Kansas City, it's so much fun. You can come and go. There's no pressure, obviously it's free. So tons of fun and just keep your eyes out for all the details as they kind of come in the coming months. But so first of all, Jami, thank you so much for being here and for sharing all your stories. I do have a couple of questions to ask you that I always like to ask my guests, but before we get to that, I have one other question. Are there any moments, or is there any particular moment that kind of has stood out to you as something where you had an encounter with art and it was just a moment that you wanted to tuck away forever? It was, it was a moment that matters that you wanted to remember. Is there anything that stands out to you?

[00:43:30] Jami Robben: Yeah, actually I remember right when we first got in contact through my mom, I remember we met at the coffee shop and we kind of discussed where I could be mentored by you. And you said that you had a performance coming up that weekend that I could go and see VidaDance Company at, and it was at the Kansas City Day of Dance at the Kansas City Ballet. And I will forever remember that performance of you guys doing the "Call Me Maybe" number. And that was so amazing to me. I could not believe that such talented dancers, especially you, Lindsey, took interest in me, 'cause I just looked up to you guys so much. And so that is a performance I will forever remember for the rest of my life.

[00:44:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that makes me so happy! That was such a fun piece too. Oh my gosh. I love that piece. Yeah, that needs to be reprised. We'll have you in it next time.

[00:44:34] Jami Robben: Oh my gosh. that would be a full circle moment.

[00:44:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? Oh, I love it. Oh, well, okay. Wonderful. And then, okay, so I just have a couple of questions. So, first of all, how do you personally define art, or what is art to you?

[00:44:53] Jami Robben: I would say art is just anything that expresses someone and it doesn't take any sort of level of talent or anything like that. It just is something that you express yourself with and it makes you happy. And it's something you're able to share with others and make them happy with it too.

[00:45:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. I love that. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:45:18] Jami Robben: I would say the most important role is probably sharing your gifts with others, just to again, make them happy. I think a lot of times are sometimes can be, you know, just kept to yourself if you're scared of showing other people. But the best thing you could do as an artist is share it and inspire others with it.

[00:45:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a story or program notes or a title or something to sort of help the audience understand what the artist was experiencing when he or she created it. Versus exclusive meaning that the artist puts something out there and doesn't provide context so that it's completely up to the viewer to make of it what they will.

[00:46:14] Jami Robben: Yeah, I would say for me personally, I really enjoy it when artists kind of leave it up to the viewer. I think it just allows you to make it more personal and have it resonate with you more. And so that's what I really enjoy, but I also see the importance of the inclusivity and, you know, allowing them to kind of show where they were at when they created it and kind of let you in on their world. But for me personally, I really like it when they leave it up to your own interpretation.

[00:46:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, again, thank you a million times for being here today, Jami, and sharing all your stories.

[00:46:57] Jami Robben: Of course.

[00:46:59] Lindsey Dinneen: And then is there a way for us to get in contact with you? Whether that's just to, you know, kind of follow your artistic journey or whether that's to, you know, go see or get involved with National Dance Week? Are there ways for us to do that?

[00:47:13] Jami Robben: Yeah. If you want to just kind of keep up with me personally. My Instagram is just Jami Robben, J A M I R O B B E N. If you have any questions about National Dance Week or anything like that, you can email me at robben.jami@gmail.Com with the same spelling as before. And then if you want to keep up with National Dance Week in general, I would go ahead and like the page on Facebook, just at National Dance Week Kansas City, and we post all the updates that you need to know about the event on there.

[00:47:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. Well, and thank you everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love it if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:48:00] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:48:10]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you about Audible. As a podcast listener yourself, you already know how great it is to listen to something while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is. Audible has thousands of titles of audiobooks, as well as podcasts and other cool things. And they're offering a free audiobook to Artfully Told listeners when you sign up for a free trial membership. You'll have 30 days to decide if Audible is right for you, and you can cancel at any time without being charged and still keep your free audiobook. Sign up for your free trial and audiobook at www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Again, that's www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Thanks, Artfully Told listeners.

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In today's episode, I welcome Gregg Gonzales! Gregg shares about his unique way of capturing people's stories through recorded audio interviews that then get transcriped and manuscript-ready to help people publish their books. With his background in wellness, hospitality, and customer service, he brings a wealth of knowledge and insight into the art of storytelling.

Get in touch with Gregg Gonzales: www.joy-ful-living.com

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Episode 37 - Gregg Gonzales

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to welcome as my guest today, Gregg Gonzales. He is the founder of Joyful Living as well as The SpeakEasy Method, and he brings with him a wealth of knowledge about wellness and wholeness and writing and editing and so many cool things. Gregg, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:04] Gregg Gonzales: It's a pleasure to be here, Lindsey. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about who you are and your background and kind of what led you to, to do what you're doing today.

[00:01:18] Gregg Gonzales: Oh my goodness. Well, I have been in the wellness industry now for over two decades. And prior to that, come from years and years within hotel and restaurant management. And I always like to say to people that if you have ever experienced living in that world of customer service, you really have to know how to connect with people in order to get things done. And that means from employees to other managers, to your customers. And so I think that connection for me has been at the center of all of the work that I've done, but it also has extended into this curiosity about people. And I think that comes from just my childhood of loving to ask people questions about who they are, why they do what they do, and really just get to the heart of who people are, has always been kind of a secret passion of mine.

[00:02:10] And so I feel like with my combined work within Joyful Living and now developing The SpeakEasy Method, I can really fulfill both of those, those intrinsic needs of mine to connect authentically with people, but also to be curious. And it's from both of those that I think it allows people to answer questions about themselves, that they get to learn something about who they are, why they do what they do, why their values and beliefs are the way they are, and really just having a deeper knowing of themselves that I think has so many healing benefits beyond the fact that we can also help tell your story and use it as a method to put you out into the world and share your story with those where you can make an impact. So it's kind of a long-winded explanation, but really at the center of my work, it's about connection. It's about being curious and it's about helping people share their story.

[00:03:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And so you have a very unique way that you help people write down either their life stories or blog posts or write an entire book. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that process and sort of how you take someone's incredible wealth of knowledge and resources and history, and then are able to help them to hone that and tell their story effectively?

[00:03:38] Gregg Gonzales: Sure. For a lot of people, they will say, "Oh, people have told me for years, I should write a book or you've got a story you need to share with the world." But for most people, I think they immediately assume nobody wants to hear my story. Nobody cares. I don't have much to tell. And what I will say to people is, number one, we all have a story that I think the world can benefit from, but also for a lot of people, it's that fear of writing. And I think that we become very judgmental about sitting down and making time to put our thoughts down. It's effort, you know, and we become very judgmental of the way that we write. And we can self-edit and it just doesn't sound like our true voice. You know what I mean? So with what I've created is really--I sit in conversation with my authors and I let them speak their story. I let them come forward with full vulnerability and full authenticity to tell me about life experiences.

[00:04:42] Tell me about the story that you want to impact and share with the world. It can even be, just be content you want to create for your business, if it's creating blogs or something for your website, anything that you need to write that really needs that authenticity and that passion and power in your voice. We're literally using your voice to write. And so how we do that is I meet with people via Zoom. So it's obviously very COVID compliant. And during the course of our recording sessions, I will ask you questions about your story. So really I'm a participant, I'm a guide, but I'm also, in a lot of ways, I'm pretending to be a reader who's interested in your story. I mean, I am interested in your story, but I take the role of a reader who wants to hear the details. I want to know why you made these decisions in your childhood that led you to coming to these "aha" moments as an adult. I want to know all of those things that I think are going to really make that impact that any author would want the reader to have by you sharing it in a, in a true, authentic voice by literally using your voice.

[00:05:52] So we record the sessions. We then take those recordings and transcribe it to text. And with the team of experts that I have that go through and clean up the transcripts, I take out all the ums, you know, you know. I mean, I talk, I say 'um" quite a bit. They'll take all those out to make it a nice clean transcript that's literally ready to be placed into a manuscript. So over the course of a single recording, which is about an hour, we can generate close to eight to 10,000 words in an hour. And I typically will ask people who've written and say, "How long would that take you to write?" And some people say, "Oh my god, weeks!" Some people say months. We can do that in an hour. And so for a book project, I have a six recording session package that's lined up, which generally creates somewhere between 50 to 75,000 words, which is a really strong manuscript for any book. We can do that in six hours.

[00:06:51] So we accelerate the writing process. So this way it saves you time. We capture the true essence of your story with your voice and we format it. So this way you can, it's ready, ready to use the moment that final recording is done for you to build your manuscript from. And now once that piece is finished, I have the team of people who can then take you through your journey to publish your book. So these are everybody from a writing coach and editor, cover design and formater for your book all the way to a publisher who can show you the steps to being self-published. Literally, we can take you from concept to published piece in six to eight months. So it's really a, a one-stop shop for people who want to write their first book, but do it in a very professional and effective way by telling a true, authentic story with your voice.

[00:07:47]Lindsey Dinneen: That is incredible. It is such, it is so cool that you are able to do that and just the amount of time, but I love the way that you put it in that it's about bringing out people's authentic voice because I think you're right. A lot of times we'll sit down to start a project and it wouldn't necessarily even just have to be writing, but you know, any project where we're trying to, to be vulnerable and tell who we are to the world. And it's so easy to just get stuck and kind of, you know, nervous or afraid, or like you said, well, who cares? Nobody would want to learn this about me or whatever. And I love that you bring that out, you know, and, and share people's hearts. That's really cool.

[00:08:31] Gregg Gonzales: It really is trying to--we're obviously creating something that is going to be useful for the author. You know, we want to create content that they can use for a published piece if that's what they're working towards. Honestly for me, I'm more interested in your story, but more importantly, it's that connection that happens because I think when you're speaking, especially if you're talking about a story that might be digging up some, some deep-seated issue, you know, some, some stories that are difficult to bring back to the surface, maybe it's from your childhood, maybe it's from a failed marriage. Maybe it's just something that is just touching certain pieces of you that it's difficult to bring it to the surface. As your collaborator, I'm creating that space for you to be able to share yourself in that space where you feel heard, respected, it feels safe. I've had people, I actually had someone recently say that this process helped-- it made it feel like we were untying knots in her mind, in her heart, which I thought was beautiful. Because it's through the questions and it's through the listening, and it's the presence that we bring to the recording sessions that really enable the author to speak fully and really capture what I like to think of is just the art of true conversation. It's that conversation that we're having, that we're not even aware that we're recording half the time. We're, we're the last thing we're thinking it is a book we're just spending time. Hearing stories and sharing and being open. And that to me is the goal that's being captured here. That if you were to sit down and write it yourself, some of the most talented writers, I, I speak to really struggle with getting that true voice in their writing. But when you're speaking, it, it takes on a different resonance in volume and density that I'm really proud of, that we're able to capture in our recordings.

[00:10:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's an incredible gift. Well, and I'm curious since you've had such a wonderfully diverse background and, and specifically in the wellness industry, And healing and so many different things. Do you think that that helps you establish a rapport and trust with the authors? Because it sounds like, you know, in order to be able to, to record this kind of content, you would have to have, like you said, you create this space for them. So do you think your background has helped with that? How does that trust come about?

[00:11:08] Gregg Gonzales: Without a doubt. So my 20 years in wellness, I was a licensed massage therapist during that time. And I think that as anyone who regularly regularly gets a massage knows, you know, there needs to be trust and comfort and kind of that safe space that, that needs to happen in order for healing to truly take place. And so, as a therapist, I was very mindful about how I wanted my guests to feel. And it's that same attentive listening without speaking. It's that mindfulness of presence to be fully aware of what's going on with the person who's on my table to be energetically aligned. So this way I'm not coming in with any of my issues or my dramas, that it's really focused on you being the center of attention. It's identical to what I'm doing now. I actually feel like the exact same intention that I would go into a treatment room with my massage is the same intention that goes into my recording sessions, because I feel like the same level of energetic impact is happening. So with a question that I ask you, that's going to bring about this amazing story of your life, where you're talking about yourself in a really positive way, and maybe reflecting back and highlighting moments that just--I literally see people transform as they're talking about their story. It also has a sematic response to their body. So I do feel that even just the process of talking and sharing has a healing benefit to it physiologically. So I kind of like to think that even though my massage career ended three years ago, I'm still giving energetic massage work through these recording sessions. I know that gets a little woo-hoo, but I really feel that the healing aspect of my massage work is being replicated in the work with SpeakEasy.

[00:13:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I love that. And probably a lot easier on your own body, not to have to be...

[00:13:10] Gregg Gonzales: Oh my god, yes. My wrists are quite happy now. Yeah. I mean, I had severe carpal tunnel, which forced me to retire and now, yeah, I, it--there's the only physical demanding part is hitting the on/ off switch on the recorder. So it's a feeling that not nearly as bad.

[00:13:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. Oh, that's fantastic. Oh man. So I'm curious, do you yourself have a writing background? Or how, how did you get interested in the storytelling, writing, editing component of what you do?

[00:13:42]Gregg Gonzales: I get asked that a lot. No, I'm--in fact, my only piece of published work is as a result of the team of people who I've put together for my Create Your Bestseller program to take the, your recordings and take it to a published piece. So I wanted to see how this whole process works. And so as part of a guinea pig experiment, I contributed a chapter to an anthology book that we published at the end of last year. That is now my first--I can now say I'm officially an Amazon bestseller because this was on the bestseller list. So I do not have a writing background. I don't claim to be a writer. And I make that pretty clear with people who bring in content that they've already written. They'll say, "Oh, can you look over my manuscript and tell me what needs to be." Like, I just let people know, like, that's really not what I do. I have people that can do that. What I do is I help fill in the gaps.

[00:14:41] So if there are pieces of your story that maybe you've got, you know, say three or four pages written, you don't know where the story goes. "I don't know how it ends. I'm not sure where to..." That's where I will then develop questions to dig a little deeper. And work with you on the recording sessions to fill in the holes, fill in the gaps, to bring about more of that , that the blossoming story that sometimes we, we sit on and think, "Oh, this is it. This is all I got." And I, I work with people's--I know there's more, there's more here. So my background as a writer is very limited, but my background as someone who can help you tell me more of the story that's inside you. That is probably the piece that I bring to life here.

[00:15:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And that's incredibly important in what makes what you do so unique because you do have that ability to draw out what needs to be told. And then you have your team behind you to support all of the other aspects. So win-win win.

[00:15:43] Gregg Gonzales: Exactly.

[00:15:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So now switching over a little bit to Joyful Living. That's the other kind of branch of, of what you do and what I know you're incredibly passionate about, and I know that an aspect, pre- and now going to be post-COVID, is hosting retreats. And so I'm curious when you host these wellness retreats, do you ever have art, some kind of art as sort of incorporated into them? I mean, how do you feel that art and wellness fit together?

[00:16:22] Gregg Gonzales: Well, it's funny you should say that. So my very first retreat that I hosted in Santa Fe, New Mexico in 2018 was centered around joy, that the theme of the retreat was just how to find, keep and sustain joy in a tumultuous world, that was kind of just the whole energy of it. And so over the course of this long weekend, there were conversations around questions that I had that I would engage my group with. And it would be kind of like an extended fireside chat was the way that we did that. But what was amazing is I also had a collaborator with me. She brought in some energy work and she did some chakra healing things that just tied in this whole idea of tapping into your inner joy, through energetic fields. So that was her focus. What was really cool though, was where we stayed was, it was at an Airbnb and it was hosted by these two guys, Ari and Gary. Ari was a chef. So he cooked for us throughout the weekend, which was just incredible. Gary is an artist. And so just by, just pure coincidence and just making the time happen, each of them played an integral role in the weekend.

[00:17:35] So Ari obviously cooked. And so he showed us his love and joy of cooking. Gary brought in his art. And so we spent a two hour segment on a Saturday at their large kitchen table. Gary had laid out paper, different canvases. He had paint, brushes, paints, crayons, markers, you name it. And the, just all these different artistic materials. And he just said, "I want you to create joy. What does joy mean to you?" And so we were literally like a bunch of adults pretending like we were kids during art class, getting our hands dirty, making just as, you know, creative and outlandish of artwork as we could. And then after we were done, we would explain, "Where did this come from? What are we trying to convey?" And for someone who has zero artistic ability, you know, it was, it was so refreshing to be able to express ourselves through art. Because my work is, is obviously through conversation and, and holding space, but this took it to a different level for myself of how do I convey joy in art? So that became something that I now want to bring with all of my future retreats, because to me it's just another way of expressing this energy. So, so it's just funny, you mentioned that because that happened by accident, but it was such a huge highlight of the weekend that I want to continue that.

[00:19:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Oh my goodness. It's, it's so much fun that you all were able to do that. And I know personally how beneficial that kind of exercise can be. And it just made me chuckle because I remember one time, I was taking an art therapy class, you know, as someone who could then use art for therapy. And one of the exercises was we were supposed to look at a bunch of magazines and then cut out things that made us happy that reminded us of happiness and joy, which, you know, my whole, whole thing is joy. So we're very aligned that way, Gregg, but yeah. And anyways, so, so we were supposed to do this thing. And then we were going to explain, and I didn't realize that we were then going to share this with the class and explain. And so here we all are busy working on our, on our little, you know collages. Oh my gosh. And I was the last person to go and, and explain, and everyone else had these heartfelt, like this brings me joy because it represents my family, and my family, you know, anyways, beautiful, beautiful things. And then we get to me. My entire collage is penguins because penguins bring me a lot of happiness. And I realized in the moment that I had missed the point of the exercise, because it was an entire collage of penguins and nothing else.

[00:20:36] Gregg Gonzales: Oh my gosh. That's awesome.

[00:20:39] Lindsey Dinneen: So that's my, my fail story from art therapy class. But, you know what, every time I looked at that, it brought me happiness. So I don't know!

[00:20:48] Gregg Gonzales: It worked! It totally worked.

[00:20:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. Oh goodness. Anyway, yeah. So, okay. So back to you, do you have, you know, in your own experience, in your own life growing up, are there any moments that kind of stand out to you as having witnessed art in some way and thinking, "Wow, that is a moment to remember." Or, "Oh my goodness, I want to be a part of that. Or I'm so glad I saw that or heard that." Or just things that stand out.

[00:21:20] Gregg Gonzales: So the first thing that pops into my mind is my brother, and he is an artist. He's based in Phoenix and he has been an artist for as long as I can remember. He is beyond talented and just, he has, he got that art gene that somehow skipped me in the family because I, I don't, I don't have any artistic ability. I was living in Los Angeles. This was in the mid to late nineties, managing a restaurant at the time. And he got his first big art gallery showing in New York. And it was a big deal, you know, so he and I have not always had the best relationship and it was something that I wanted to show him how much I supported his work. And so I made it, I got on a red eye or just got on a late flight after work and surprised him. And the gallery knew that I was coming. My folks knew that I was coming, but he didn't. And so I arrive down in Soho in New York. And it's just, you know, as you would typically imagine like a New York gallery to be just this huge, beautiful space totally lit up, people are all dressed to the nines. There's champagne in order was being passed around.

[00:22:41] And I'm just like, "Oh my God, like, this is truly a big deal." And up to that point, I hadn't really seen much of the work he had done. So I was seeing it really for the first time. And so I walk in. My folks see me, they're like, "Oh my God, he's going to be so happy. You're here!" Whatever. And like, '"Where is he?" And like, "Where?" "Do you see those group of people over there kind of huddled around all these big pieces?" And I recognize that they were his, 'cause he's got a very distinctive style, and they're like, "He's kind of meshed in with that, talking with them." And so I kinda meander my way over and start kind of just poking around to see if I see him. And it's just a swarm of people huddled around these two huge floor-to-ceiling art pieces. And he's standing there with his champagne glass and he's talking about his work and all these people, and I'm just, I'm sitting there and I'm looking at his pieces just with my mouth, just gaped open, like, "Oh my God, these are unbelievable."

[00:23:37] But more importantly, like I was just staring at him just like, he freaking did it. Like, this is incredible. And I just, I just sat there with my head, just, just shaking. Like, I don't believe this. Well, then he caught-- we made eye contact. He saw me, he stopped talking and he's like, "Oh my God, excuse me, everybody. But my brother is here." And like, everyone was like, "Oh!" and clapped. And he came and gave me a big hug and I just, I'd never felt so proud of him and the work he did. And just my appreciation for art in general took on a whole new level after that, because now there was a personal connection to it. You know, now I knew why he did what he did, the devotion and the time and the dedication that it took, but then to see the impact that it was having on people. That's just a memory that really sticks out to me in terms of how my perception of art really changed. I mean, I've always been into art. I've always loved learning about artists, but to have it be in the family, with someone who was kind of at that level now, just, it really hit home in a different way.

[00:24:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's a beautiful memory. Thank you for sharing that. I was just smiling the whole time thinking, "Oh my gosh. What a fantastic surprise, and well that's, that is amazing." Wow. So I do have a few questions that I like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:25:02] Gregg Gonzales: I'm totally fine with that. Sure.

[00:25:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Okay. So the first is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:11]Gregg Gonzales: I think art to me is about self-expression in its truest form. That's why I think about the work that I do with my authors. They, they don't think about, about it as writing, but if you're speaking it, you're expressing yourself. You know it, to me, it's no different than if you were to sit at a computer and write, or pull out a pen and write in a journal just as the same way, you know, traditional authors do it. It's no different than someone sculpting a piece of raw clay into something beautiful, or a painter taking a blank canvas and creating something from their own self expression. So to me, art is the ultimate form of self-expression.

[00:25:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:01]Gregg Gonzales: I think, I think it's to delight. Truly, I think it's to delight those, whether that delight can be in the form of, "I appreciate it. I think it's garbage. I think it's the greatest thing ever." I think it's to gain, to get a response from the people who are experiencing the art, whether it be music, whether it be a painting, whether it be a book. You want a response. You want, you want them to feel something. So to me as an artist, I want my people to, or I want the people who are experiencing my work to feel something. I know that sounds very general, but to me, it's about feeling.

[00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree. And then do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist to create something and puts it out into the world and provides a little bit of context, whether that's a title or a program notes or inspiration or something, just to give a little glimpse into what the artist was thinking when he or she created it. Versus exlusive referring to an artist who creates something and puts it out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's just up to the receiver or viewer to interpret it the way that they will.

[00:27:29]Gregg Gonzales: I think that's the beautiful thing about art is that it doesn't have to be either. I think that if you want to provide some context around what it is that you're doing to make it more digestible or easy, easier to explain for people , that's fine. I also think that there's-- I love looking at something and not knowing what they were trying to do here. They were trying to do something. You know, the thing that came to my mind is like the Mona Lisa, and there's been so many books and studies and I'm sure art classes that have been written around, you know,"What was he trying to convey? What was she thinking? What is she smiling about?" You know, I think art that raises as many questions as it answers is a great thing. So I would--I'm going to probably take the easy route and say, I think that it could be both because I think that again, depending upon how you want the audience to perceive your work, that being inclusive, being exclusive, I think has benefits in both regards.

[00:28:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, awesome. Well, first of all, Gregg, thank you so much again for joining us today and for sharing all your stories and about your work and all of that. I really, really appreciate that. And, yeah. And I do want to give our listeners an opportunity to connect with you, whether that be, you know, just to learn a little bit more about the different things that you have, Joyful Living and SpeakEasy, or if you're okay with it, connecting just with you because you're awesome. And so is there a way for us to do that?

[00:29:20] Gregg Gonzales: I'd probably say right now, the easiest way is just through my website to go directly through the Contact Me page. And the website is, uh, joy-ful-living.com, but there are hyphens throughout, so I'll spell it out. So it's www.joy hypthen ful, with one l, hyphen living.com. That's probably the easiest way to learn about SpeakEasy, to contact me, to kind of get an overview as to all of the different projects and missions of Joyful Living that are soon to come. But really SpeakEasy is, is my my baby that I'm developing right now and putting a lot of focus and energy. And so, so much is there for people to learn about it. They can set up a discovery call with me through there. So that's probably the best way.

[00:30:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. All right, well, thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:30:23] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:30:32]Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you about Audible. As a podcast listener yourself, you already know how great it is to listen to something while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is. Audible has thousands of titles of audiobooks, as well as podcasts and other cool things. And they're offering a freeaudio book to Artfully Told listeners when you sign up for a free trial membership. You'll have 30 days to decide if Audible is right for you and you can cancel at any time without being charged and still keep your free audiobook. Sign up for your free trial and audiobook at www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Again, that's www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Thanks, Artfully Told listeners.

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In today's episode, I welcome Mike Huerter! Mike shares his experiences participating in plays and ballets first as an actor, and then being "roped into" taking classical dance classes--and how much that has changed his life! His stories are heartwarming and powerful, and he discusses how much portraying certain roles has changed his perpective on his own life journey. (Fun fact: the cover image is of Mike and his dance partner in VidaDance's production of "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker.")

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Episode 035 - Mike Huerter

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:16]Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told . My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the fantastic Mike Huerter. We actually met through dance , but he has a long and very interesting story of sort of how everything came together. And I am just so thrilled to talk with him today and share his stories with you because he brings a really fun, unique background into his art. And so, Mike, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:01:08] Mike Huerter: Thanks for having me, Lindsey.

[00:01:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, if you don't mind telling us a little bit about how you kind of got started and I just love this whole story of yours, so I'm excited to share it.

[00:01:22] Mike Huerter: Oh gosh. It's been quite a few years back now, actually 21 years ago, back in 2000 I was approached by a female member of our church at the time. And she had a question for me, said, "Hey, would you be interested in performing in a play for us?" And it's like, "Well, sure. I, I can do that. What do you know, what, what kind of play is it?" She said, "Well, it's actually a ballet." It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. I don't wear a tutu. I'm not, you know, I don't dance. I have two left feet, no rhythm." She said, "No, no, just hear me out." She said, "We , there's a place called Dramatic Truth that does a ballet every Christmas called "The Mystery of Christmas" and it's "The Nutcracker" ballet, but it's actually done to the true story of Christmas. And so I, I said, "You know." I kinda thought about it and said, "Yeah, that sounds kind of cool actually." I said, "I wouldn't mind taking a look at that." So did it the very first year and just totally fell in love with it. Fell in love with ballet at that point. Just watching these girls, 13, 14, 17, 18, just giving their all and could barely breathe coming off stage just fascinated me. And I actually got to play the role of Jesus--well I played, do a role of Jesus and Joseph in that play. And that was a very humbling experience in and of itself, actually.

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I'm curious though, because I'm so impressed with the fact that you were just like, "Sure I'll be in this play." I mean, have you ever, had you ever acted before, or was--so were you comfortable with the concept? Or were you just like"Sure. I'm up for something new."

[00:03:08] Mike Huerter: Well, I, I have the quote "look" for, you know, the Western American version of Jesus--long hair, back at times, still at my beard was still brown. It's got quite a bit grayer since then, but I, you know, I had done some, some school plays in grade school and high school and had done kind of a musical at one point in like eighth grade, if I remember right. And it was kind of a fifties hip hop thing. Oh gosh. The soda fountain type music back then. And then I had done some church plays prior to being approached by doing this and playing the role of Jesus and everything . Actually did "The Passion of the Christ," and that, that was, yeah. That's, that's a whole 'nother story.

[00:03:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I mean, I would love to hear it if you want to share about it.

[00:03:52] Mike Huerter: Just the aspect of going and trying to portray Jesus . Halfway through the rehearsal, part of that production, prior to our Easter production, I literally heard the devil say, "Who the hell do you think you are?" And my problem at that point was I started listening to him, and I was close to probably being on the verge of quitting, just because-- excuse me, bear with me-- because I had no right playing that part. Yeah, it's , you know, I don't even come close to being who Jesus is. I mean, I can, I can show Him to the world is how, what I think He should be, but I'm not Him by any means. So I kind of talked to the, the pastor who was producing it and. She, she of opened me up to really delving in deeper into into my faith at that point. And so I started praying about it and kept going, going to the rehearsals and everything and, and shared with a few people what I was going through.

[00:04:59] And then one day at rehearsal, I was , I believe what I heard was God. Because I heard the devil say it again. It's like, once again, "Who do you think you are?" And I heard another Voice said , "This is my beloved son, and he's here because I want him to be here." Yeah. It just kind of set me back and it's like, "Wow!" I mean, "Did I just really hear that?" Did I think it? Didn't, you know, what's going on here and, and then distinctly felt and heard it again saying ," I'm here because God wants me to be here and to fulfill this role." And I can't remember in my mind visualizing, turning back, looking over my shoulder and it's like, "Hey, I'm out of this. If you have a problem with me doing this, you need to talk the Guy in front of me right now."

[00:05:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes!

[00:05:43] Mike Huerter: So it was like, "Hey, I'm just doing what I gotta do. And it turned out really well. It was a great production. And it just, it really deepened my faith just to put myself in that role. And then kind of got, I guess, quote "stereotyped" into doing it from that point forward. I mean, people contact me to play that part, and I love doing it and I mean, it's great.

[00:06:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. That is a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that. That's...

[00:06:09] Mike Huerter: Ah, you're welcome. You're welcome. It's still hard to talk about it so many years later just, just how real that was for me.

[00:06:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I think you captured it well in the way that you were talking about how it's just such a humbling experience to try to portray a character like that. Obviously that would, I guess, be kind of your ultimate standard of character, but just in general, trying to portray someone that you respect and look up to and admire, I mean--that alone is huge. So yeah. Good for you for listening to the right Voice, ultimately. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, so then, all right. So fast forward, you got involved in "The Mystery of Christmas" and you obviously were pretty inspired by that, but then what happened after that? Because that kind of changed a little bit of your life from there. And then that kind of inspired you to start doing other things related to ballet. And I don't want to tell your story for you, but can you share a little bit about what ended up happening as a result of all that?

[00:07:18] Mike Huerter: Liz Dimmel, who's the Artistic Director over at Dramatic Truth, after years of performing in "Mystery of Christmas "--about five years ago now-- yeah, I was 55 years old. So she in her, I don't want to say "devious," but she's, she has a mischievous twinkle and smile she, she sometimes gives to people, and she kind of looked at me one day, said, "Hey , would you be interested in performing another play that we're going to do?" And it's like, "Well, yeah, you know, sure. I'm always up for doing something different like that." And she said, "Well, now wait a minute. Before you answer that fast, you might want to take into consideration that you will actually have to dance in this one." And it's like, "Ooh " once again, you know, proverbial white guy, two left feet, no rhythm. I don't count music and all that kind of stuff. And she said, '"Well, you know, I've got a DVD. I'd like you to go home, you know, kind of take a look at it and see about, you know, if you'd be interested in doing this. You would be playing the role of Jesus again."

[00:08:19] And so I took the DVD home and I have watched it, and really interesting piece . I kind of started talking to the girls a little bit about it, you know, and they said, "Well, we haven't done that piece in probably five or six years." And it's the piece is a, it was a production about what we all go through in the spiritual battle. Demons abounded in it, and they were tormenting for particular characters in this, in this production, and Jesus being the role of stepping in and intervening to help them. And really, really enjoyed doing the piece. It was, again, another humbling experience , touched a lot of people's lives. I was told afterwards even by some of the young ladies that I was performing with. And so anyhow, that that production was over and, well Liz--I went and talked to her, said, "Hey, thanks for, you know, thinking about me for playing this role." And she kinda looked at me and she said , "Would you be interested in taking a dance class?" And it's like, oh again , "Well, tell me more, you know." So she said, "Well, we, we would really like you to come and do our pas class 'cause a lot of the girls don't understand the dynamics of what a guy goes through and performing lifts and, and working with them. And we could, we could really use the help. So I thought about it and talked again to two of the older girls. You know, "We , we don't get into it very often because we don't have that many guys here." So I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And I'll call Liz and tell her. And she was ecstatic.

[00:09:53] And so I showed up the first night of dance class, and yes, they really did need the help. It was me and eight girls. And it's like, "Am I the only guy?" "Yep." "Oh, great." But I'll tell you what--that, oh my gosh, what a workout. I remember the next morning when the alarm went off to get up for work, I could barely move to get out of bed. My whole body was like, "What did you do?" But I talked to my youngest son about it and he said, "Dad, that's a phenomenal workout because your body doesn't really know what's coming next. You got different weights sizes, you know? And it's like, that's a great workout." So, and I, once again, fell in love with it and just kept doing it. Unfortunately, you know, this COVID thing has come along and I've had to bow out of it for awhile, but I even at 60 years old, I would welcome to get back into it. And, and they've already told me that they would love to have me back too. So.

[00:10:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Yeah. Well, okay. So first of all, for anyone listening who isn't familiar with the term "pas," it's actually partnering. So it's typically, in classical ballet at least , a man and a woman. And so, yeah, those kinds of classes are, I mean, they're, they're difficult for the girls because they're learning something, a skill that is more advanced and is challenging and can be a little scary sometimes because you're relying on a, another human to catch you and lift you and all those things. But for the guys, it's this tremendous, like you said, workout and responsibility and all those things. So yeah. Thank you for stepping up and bringing brave to help.

[00:11:37] Mike Huerter: Well, you're welcome. And the one thing that we'll say is that, at least at Dramatic Truth--and I'm, I'm, I would hopefully most dance studios are this way--but our number one goal and focus as a male dancer working with a woman, is to protect her at all costs. I mean, when you're trying, when you're throwing somebody up in the air, you know, things can happen. You try not to drop them. And thank God, I have not done that yet to this point. And I don't intend to, but you do whatever you have to do to keep them protected and safe.

[00:12:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And we certainly appreciate that. Oh man. I recall...

[00:12:17] Mike Huerter: I've worked with you, I don't think I dropped you at all, so.

[00:12:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I'm still here in one piece. Nope, feel great. Oh, no, but that, it made me chuckle because it reminded me of the first pas that we did together. There was this moment that we incorporated of a shoulder sit, and those things, those things are pretty scary. And I remember just, you know, doing the whole--because the idea is that you run to the--the woman runs to the man. And so you already have momentum going into it, and then you're supposed to jump and turn and he catches you and puts you on his shoulder. That's a lot of things happening at one time. And I just remember practicing it and it was just having this, "Oh, here we go," every time. Like, it's just a hard lift for anyone.

[00:13:09]Mike Huerter: But you did.

[00:13:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it was, it was good, it was a good team effort. It was fun times.

[00:13:14] Mike Huerter: Those kind of things that make it a lot of fun. I mean, if you can, you know--things don't go well the first time, obviously when you try things and you just have to laugh and practice until you get it right.

[00:13:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Absolutely. So out of curiosity, since this was kind of an endeavor you undertook a little bit later than most people start--which is fantastic, I have so much admiration for that-- do you, did you have a lot of like funny conversations with people who were like, "You're doing what?"

[00:13:47] Mike Huerter: Yeah. I still get that actually. It's like you, you're! Well , let me back up. I will say that anybody who doesn't think God has a sense of humor , if people knew me growing up, then they find out I'm now doing ballet. Yeah. God does have a sense of humor. I would never, in my wildest dreams, thought I would be performing in any kind of ballet. So yeah. I still have some interesting conversations. Like, "Did you say ballet?" You know, obviously people get the ideas, like "You're not wearing a tutu or anything?" and I was like, "No, we don't wear tutus, but you know, I still do ballet."

[00:14:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Oh my gosh. So, okay. So are there any moments, you know, either performing or watching someone perform, or it doesn't even have to be related to dance necessarily, but kind of any moments where you were experiencing art and something really stood out and you kind of tucked it away as a moment to remember?

[00:14:47]Mike Huerter: Oh gosh. There's been a couple moments in, in doing "Mystery" at Christmas where playing the role of Joseph right after the baby is born, I, I carry a really alive baby in the performances out to the center of the stage. And there was one particular year, I remember looking down at this , it was, it happened to be a girl . So , but I noticed one little lone tear rolling out of her eye and it struck me at that point that even then Jesus knew what He was going to do for us later on. And I almost fell to my knees on stage, just at the thought of that. And then there was another year I distinctly remember realizing and feeling is of it, playing that Joseph role, again, that at the, at the end of our little dance performance, I always kissed the baby on the forehead. And it struck me at that point that Joseph--I just got this overwhelming feeling of what Joseph must have felt like to realize he was actually the first physical person to kiss the face of God.

[00:16:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Those are two really big moments of inspiration. Just getting to think of it in those terms, it kind of brings more realness and, and humanity and, and all those things to this story that's, you know, sometimes feels a little distant. So that's, that's pretty amazing.

[00:16:22] Mike Huerter: Yeah. Those two, I think will probably stand out-- at least for now, anyhow--as probably the two most greatest feelings of my life and in performing.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Well, and so, you know, once everything kind of gets back to a semblance of normal, whatever that's going to look like , you had mentioned still planning to, you know, get back into it. So you were planning to go back to classes and perform and all that kind of stuff?

[00:16:48] Mike Huerter: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's my goal. I will, I would love to . Just it's, it's a good exercise. It's great exercise. It's you know, it keeps people connected , helps keep me young, hanging around with young, younger people. Because there's, there's going to be a day, you know, that I'm not going to be able to do it anymore. And I'm trying to fight that as much as possible.

[00:17:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Very good. Well, I, I always ask my guests the same three questions and I was wondering if I could go ahead and do that with you?

[00:17:20] Mike Huerter: Well, absolutely.

[00:17:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:17:30] Mike Huerter: Well, you know, art takes many forms dance acting, obviously drawing, painting. So I mean, for me, I think I probably gravitate more towards the acting, dancing role of art then, but that doesn't take away anything from any other art form, by any means , you know, musicians and all that. My sons and daughters are very musical. I love music. I, I wish I could play it, but I can't. So I'm in total admiration of people who can. I mean, it's such a gift that they can just-- my son's trying to, you know, he was trying to teach us to harmonize some time. They say, "Dad, it's right there in front of you." And it's like, "No, you don't understand. It's not right there in front of me. It might be for you." 'Cause he's got that ability where he can just pick out notes and play them, that kind of thing. So this would be a very sad world that any form of art . I think art-- it saddened me to see you know, some schools, they, it's not very high on their priority list. I think it's a great outlet for people to express their feelings as things that are going on, maybe emotionally in their lives. It's a great outlet for them, for them to, to bring that out without actually, without actually having to sit down and talk to somebody about it. I mean, they can express it in whatever form they want to. And it's, I think art's more for us, you know, the people are performing it than it is for the people that we're actually presenting it to.

[00:18:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's great. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:19:01]Mike Huerter: Probably just be true to yourself. You know, you, you can't fake art. It's, I mean, yeah, I'm portraying a role in something, and I guess people would maybe think that's fake, but for me, I want to do it to the very best of my ability. I want people to--when they, when they look and see me doing something, they don't see me, they see the person or, you know, that I'm trying to portray.

[00:19:28]Lindsey Dinneen: I really liked that. Yeah. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who creates something puts it out into the world and provide some context behind it. It doesn't have to be a lot, but you know, even title, program notes, inspiration, whatever to kind of help give the audience, the background info . Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does create their work, puts it out there, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's kind of completely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they do.

[00:20:13]Mike Huerter: Oh, goodness. That's a hard question because I can actually see both sides of that. You know, I guess I would probably lean more toward the inclusive because if you're using your art form to convey a message--and there are some people out there who have not been exposed to art-- so it would be as the, as the portrayer of the art, you might have a particular message you want delivered. And if there's no background to to go along with that, the message you're trying to portray may not be seen by the person you're trying to convey it to. So I think a little bit of context behind a piece is beneficial. But then on the other side, you know, on the, if you're a true artist, then we'll let the person see whatever they want to see in it. But I, I'm still leaning more towards the inclusive.

[00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely think there's value in both. And it's completely up to the artists too, because they can, you know, make decisions based on what makes sense. You know, I've certainly created works that I haven't--well, I almost always, I have to say, I almost always add some sort of program note--but in theory, you know, art should be able to stand on its own as well, right? And then, you know, it's kind of fun to have the background, but you don't always need it.

[00:21:40] Mike Huerter: So yeah, a lot of it just depends on what you're trying to portray. If you, if you just want to do a fun piece to let people think what they will, great. Don't give any context. But if you really, if there's a message in there that you want delivered, I think a little bit of context would help turn the light bulb on, so to speak, for people. It's like, "Oh, I get what they're doing."

[00:21:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, it's another question kind of popped in my head. So whe--you've talked a lot about what about these really, really deep, impactful moments for you. You know, you've had the opportunity to portray Jesus, which is a huge undertaking. And you know, so I'm, I'm kind of curious: do you find yourself leaning more towards opportunities that give you a chance to share something that's very you know, meaningful to you personally, or do you also enjoy more lighthearted things, or is it kind of like a little bit of both?

[00:22:36]Mike Huerter: I, yeah, I think a little bit of both. I mean, I think originally just because that was the only role I was really being used in was the spiritual until, you know, I got some other opportunities. So I, I, I mean, at this point I kind of welcome just about anything really. The, the aspect of a light-hearted is fun, enjoyable. I mean, like that little coffee piece we did, and we talked about before that we need to somehow bring back. That was fun. That was just a fun, you know, no real spiritual message in it at all. It's more of a an everyday person who's getting up to go to work type message. It's like, "Oh, okay." But yeah, so yeah, anything really? I mean, I, I just enjoy being part of it.

[00:23:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I think it's fun to have a little bit of both too. Like, I'm all, I'm all about the joy aspect, but I think that it's, you can get that from, from both sides and it's fun to have, have some of both. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mike, for being my guest today. I really appreciate it, and sharing your stories. I mean, you brought such depth to this conversation, and I really appreciate you being so honest 'cause I know sometimes those are, it's a little hard to be vulnerable when it's, you know, something that it did mean so much to you. So that's, that's really cool that you shared that. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

[00:24:01] Mike Huerter: You're very welcome. You're welcome. Anytime.

[00:24:03]Lindsey Dinneen: And thank you also to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:24:19] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:24:27]Hey, Artfully Told listeners. It's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even a very small, monthly donation, like $5 a month, would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

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In today's episode in celebration of Kevin Dinneen's birthday month, I had him as my guest again on Artfully Told! He shares two powerful stories about his encounters with art: one when he first tap danced as a five-year-old, and one about his innovative way to save a show with his creative choreography idea. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Kevin in our piece, "The Court(ing) Jester.")

Watch "The Court(ing) Jester": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXzv5QLtzPc Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

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Episode 035 - Kevin Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey and I am very excited to have my husband, Kevin, on the episode today. And he actually has a really great story, actually, I guess, a couple of stories to share with us today. So I'm going to let you take it from here, Kevin .

[00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:00:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Enjoy.

[00:00:57] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. So it's a two part-er and it's a theme and these are the two dance performances that I have been a part of. As, as far as performing since marrying you--I've had to, I've gotten to be behind the scenes, do a lot of things with performances, but these are the two shows that I've performed in. So the first time--I'll set the scene, 1985, I'm five years old. And I've been a part of a tap class where I was one of two boys and it was all girls otherwise. And the other guy's name was Andy. I don't know if it was sort of like a bulk ordering thing or if they just weren't available back then, but Andy and I had to wear the same tights as the girls. And so we also had pink tights and I'm not quite sure why, but we didn't have an option. It comes time for recital and we're in this giant, giant theater, This theater was the stage was so big.

[00:02:11] The stage is the biggest non-separated area of space that I had ever stood on, and just like this open space. It was huge. And these spotlights were so big--just to, so this is Gardner, Kansas High School Theater, but as a five-year-old, this was one of the biggest theaters in existence, right? That's what it felt like. It was, I was so intimidated and I just remember the lights being so hot and bright, and I couldn't really see the audience that well. And, I don't have any idea how my performance went as far as if you take into account my current ability to follow choreography. If it's anything like it is now, it was way off, way behind, and just way wrong.

[00:03:07] But I don't even remember that, that doesn't even factor into the story. So what happened then, at the end, we do our bow, and I turned, everybody turns to the side we're supposed to exit on. And, and so I turn and I exit and I get to the end and sort of a weird situation 'cause there's like props and behind-the-scenes stuff like sandbox bags for the curtains and, and there's like lights and stuff, and it's really dark and tell them like, "Oh, this is, this doesn't look like when we came in." And I turned around to see the last person that was, that I was next to, exit on the other side of the stage. And I knew that I had gone the wrong way and there was no, I look around, there's no way it's like the storage closet kind of area, and there's no way to get across the stage without, or you get to the other side of the stage without going across the stage in front of everyone. Oh. And I just remember running as fast as I can, and maybe if I get there as fast as I can, no one will notice. And, but in my mind, in my mind, it never occurred to me that this is a tap recital. And so I start running just as the clapping stops and there's this "clink, clink, clink" gets everyone's attention. This bright pink movement with all this clinking goes screaming across the stage and there's laughter. All of these terrible, horrible parents decide it'll be fun to crush this little boy's spirits.

[00:05:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, oh.

[00:05:04] Kevin Dinneen: I quit. I quit after that. I was crying. I was a mess. I was crying and bawling and didn't want to talk about it. And, I'm done. I took off my tap shoes for the last time, that evening and never picked them up again.

[00:05:19] Lindsey Dinneen: That's such a sad story.

[00:05:21]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So then fast forward and, Lindsey, you were getting ready to launch your company. Actually, it was the very first show that you were going to be putting on. So Lindsey got presented with this opportunity where she met the director of the Fringe show for Kansas City, which is a big, like 10-day arts festival with all sorts of performing arts, singing, acting, all sorts of stuff, theater, I should say. And, and there was an open slot at the Kansas City ballet performing space there. What would you call that? A studio theater?

[00:06:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:08] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So it was a studio theater for the Kansas City Ballet. And, after talking with her, she learned that there this open space was available and she had always thought about, or is it sort of like a dream of hers to start her own company. Well, now she has this opportunity to perform.

[00:06:32] Lindsey Dinneen: And, well, and to caveat, not just to perform, though that would have been super exciting in and of itself, but to actually produce a show, which was something that I had never done before in that kind of capacity of creating something from scratch. And just to give some context.

[00:06:53] Kevin Dinneen: Professional level paid gig.

[00:06:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, exactly, to that level. Yeah. I had never done anything like that before. And to give a little bit more context, I was presented this opportunity in what late April, I think. And then does that sound right?

[00:07:12] Kevin Dinneen: I was going to say early May.

[00:07:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Maybe early May...

[00:07:16] Kevin Dinneen: But it was, then was it June that the performance was going to happen in?

[00:07:22] Lindsey Dinneen: July.

[00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Oh July. Okay.

[00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, but still to put that in perspective though.--so that was maybe a little over two months' worth that I had to put everything together. So that meant, you know, recruiting dancers and doing the choreography, creating the choreography, getting costumes, rehearsing so that we looked put together. I mean, that might not sound like that much, but that is a lot of work, and a lot put together from nothing in just a couple months. So, so first of all, perspective on, on all, how much this was like a big deal, like a full length.

[00:08:03] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not just, you know, 20 minutes or something, 10 minutes.

[00:08:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Not a gig, like a whole thing. Yeah.

[00:08:11] Kevin Dinneen: And so, so Lindsey, I remember she was excited, but also nervous, and just had sort of a fear of failure that was kind of keeping her from committing right away. And I remember saying, "Okay, whatever you need help with, I will be there to help, whether it's finding music or props or whatever it is, technical stuff. I can do any of the behind-the-scenes stuff that you need done promoting it, coming up with copy for promotional purposes coming up with photos or videos. You know, we can, we can actually do this. I'm on board." And so I convinced her to do it. I didn't have to try that hard. I just said, "Hey, I'm in this with you. We can do it." And that was pretty much, just kinda someone else that would, that would be there to help.

[00:09:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:09:08] Kevin Dinneen: So, we could actually go back and find the actual date, but I think it was sometime in early June after rehearsing, you'd come up with all of the pieces that you needed for your show. You had recruited everyone, you had actually started setting choreography on your dancers. And, it was something like, do you think you were probably halfway through with, with a certain piece that was going to be--dance that was going to be in this?

[00:09:41] Lindsey Dinneen: I want to say, yeah, probably. I think I had already choreographed it. I mean, gosh, that was a while ago.

[00:09:47]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So there was this one piece of the puzzle, that was a, it was a pas, right? It was a, it was for non-dancers at the duets, the two person dance.

[00:10:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Typically a one woman, one man.

[00:10:03] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, and so who was going to be her partner in that dance had an injury and wouldn't be able to do this piece. Now we're talking like weeks away and needing now to find a new idea or a replacement partner. So started looking for replacement partners that didn't work out. And, and there was sort of this time where Lindsey, it got to you.

[00:10:37]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:10:39] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. It got to, you started feeling the pressure and, and then that got to me, 'cause I'm like, "Hey dude, you know, I'm here, let's do it." Well, what could happen? You know, you got this and, and I'll help. Well, I can't dance. And this is a professional thing. I can't go stand in. I can't go learn years' worth of things and get years' worth of practice and corrections in a, in a month. So I can't just stand in. So I decided that, I would make a comeback as a performer in a dance production. However, I just won't dance. Well, I guess I did. My dancing won't be the... My dancing won't be the, the highlight of, of my portion. So I decided on this story where we have Lindsey as being sort of the center of attention for two men and one man dances. And then another man is juggling. So I'm the juggler in this. And, the story is basically, each of us vying for attention, vying for her attention. And, then me eventually winning, obviously, because I wrote this.

[00:12:02] Lindsey Dinneen: And we're married now. So...

[00:12:04] Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, I wrote it so that I would win the day. The beauty of this was I didn't have to dance. I fixed the problem and, and I fixed it by the other person in the da... the other guy in the dance didn't have to learn choreography. He would just do whatever he did whatever he wanted to do. There was a little bit of choreography between the two of you, but it wasn't as involved as the original thing. He was already, he couldn't do a whole 'nother piece, but with this, he just had to do a few tricks, mostly here and there. And so it kind of checked all the boxes and so I was able to then, it worked well. There was one hiccup, and I really need to start paying attention to my stage left and stage right directions. I, I had sort of a return of, of an issue from when I was five. And what happened was I, as, as part of the show, the last piece in the show was going to be sort of a, a piece making fun of, or kind of...

[00:13:17] Lindsey Dinneen: I called it my Murphy's Law rehearsal piece.

[00:13:19] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was a, it was a comical please showing things that can go wrong during a rehearsal. And, or rehearsals in general, like people forgetting the right shoes or, you know, screwing things up, you know, any which way. And so, you know, we kind of...

[00:13:38] Lindsey Dinneen: It's an exaggerated parody, but tons of fun.

[00:13:41] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And, so I finished my, my juggling piece, called "The Courting Jester" by the way. I was pretty proud of that title and, so I get done with my piece. And I'm also doing all the filming and, and taking photos and things like that on, in the pieces that I'm not in. So I go to get ready to get my camera stuff, and after my piece and I'm going along doing my thing. And then, and then I remember that, or I realized, "Hey, this is the piece before the final piece that is making fun of the rehearsal stuff and I'm in that. So I need to go get in place now." So before the piece before the piece I'm supposed to be in...

[00:14:27] Lindsey Dinneen: So the second-to-last piece of the show...

[00:14:30] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you! Okay.

[00:14:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:14:32] Kevin Dinneen: When the house lights go down right before the second-to-last piece, I go get on the side that I'm going to go-- the side of the stage that I'm going to enter from, which is opposite where the Green Room and stuff like that is, and changing rooms and stuff. So, I'm there on that side of the stage, and the piece starts, and I realize that I need my juggling balls for this piece. And I left them in the Green Room on the other side of the stage. Flashback to when I was five. I can't run across the stage. I can't run across the stage during the piece. Luckily in this case, there was a backdrop, a black curtain backdrop, and a little bit of space in between there and the wall. So I decided I have to get across the stage and retrieve my juggling balls and then get back before, as opposed to enter the stage. Now the trick is I can't hurry because it'll make the curtain kind of wave, if you pass by it too quickly.

[00:15:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And, and just for context, so he's kind of referring to is there's like the wall of the theater. And then what do you say? Like a foot? Is it even that much of space?

[00:15:49] Kevin Dinneen: So I couldn't walk shoulder to shoulder.

[00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Or straight.

[00:15:54]Kevin Dinneen: I had to like sidestep.

[00:15:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, along the wall, essentially.

[00:15:58] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I would say 12 inches or a little bit less. Yeah.

[00:16:01]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so it's not a whole lot of space and it goes to the wall and then you have a little bit of space and then the black backdrop, and then from there the stage. So you actually, we don't have quite the full depth of the stage, but just to give some context. So as he's trying to maneuver behind the backdrop, like he's saying, if you move too fast--you can't run because if you move too fast, then the curtain, the whole curtain ripples, and it's just super distracting for the audience. So, yeah.

[00:16:31] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And then, and then I'm not supposed to be back there either.

[00:16:36] Lindsey Dinneen: 'Cause there's a lot of crossovers for the dancers in the piece.

[00:16:38] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So that's the thing. That's what I was worried about. So I, I get back there and I'm moving across and then all this--you can't see like an arms length in front of you--I mean, it's, it's pitch black out there. Luckily the dancer that I passed, she was headed the opposite way. They're so dark and we didn't never talked about it. So I don't even know who it was. And, and we passed, we saw each other and then passed very, very slowly and I was jammed up against the wall. And, so I got to the other side and got my juggling balls from the Green Room and then slowly worked my way back across. And I think I had three seconds before I had to go on stage. Like I got to the--

[00:17:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow.

[00:17:31] Kevin Dinneen: So I got, so there, there were like three wings. Is that right?

[00:17:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Kevin Dinneen: So, so the wing is the side of the stage. And it's blocked so you can't see behind it, but they're like three depths of these curtains. And I had to get to the farthest one to the thing. Keep in mind, there are all these side lights and stuff and cords going everywhere. And there's people standing there getting ready and there's props. And so by the time I got back, I really had about three seconds before I had to come out juggling. And, I got out and I did my juggling part, and realized, sort of I had this moment of, you know, being able to have conquered my problems with my wings to the stage.

[00:18:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Redemption! I don't think I knew--and see, I, this, this kind of thing happens a lot in my dancers and guest artists, as I will consider Kevin are, smart not to tell me as things are happening, but later they tell me these stories, 'cause I definitely had no idea that--

[00:18:37] Kevin Dinneen: I'm pretty sure you didn't have any idea how close I cut it until right now.

[00:18:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, no, I didn't even realize it was that close.

[00:18:44] Kevin Dinneen: Even when I told you what had happened, I left out the three seconds.

[00:18:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And it's and yeah, my goodness. Yeah. And it's crazy because, you know, that's real life. Things like this happen all the time and, and crazy little things just go wonky. I mean, it's live theater. So, as they say, the show must go on and you never know, but yeah, that's, that's a pretty--I did not know that.

[00:19:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And so in my mind too, I was like, so do I go out? And, and like fake, cause they've seen me juggled before, they'll know what I'm doing. And like, it might've worked. I could have improved and, and been like, you know, some sort of emotion like, "Oh shoot. I was supposed to bring juggling balls to the rehearsal, but I forgot. I'll just do this." And, you know, it could have worked. Never even crossed my mind until right now during the session I've told this story. I guess I don't think on my feet.

[00:19:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and it's funny too, because I think-- well, you, you mentioned maybe like now you're kind of thinking through all the ways you probably could have made it happen and it would be no big deal. I mean, the audience wouldn't know the difference. And it's so funny because I think as dancers, when you grow up dancing, you have, you learn how to adapt really quickly to circumstances that you don't anticipate. So, and that's so common. I mean, there there've been, I can't even tell you how many costume changes I've had that have been super quick, where I barely made it on stage or didn't make it on stage for my cue. And then you have to figure out, "How do I adapt and how do I change?" And it's so interesting to hear it from your perspective. 'Cause I was thinking, I mean, even if you hadn't entered from the correct wing, I mean, you could have entered like a couple back and we could have, but you know, you don't think like that. You just think, and this is normal for, I think everyone, but you just sorta think like, "No, this is my role." Like, "This is what I've learned." And so you end up like rushing around and doing crazy stuff.

[00:20:49] Kevin Dinneen: Well, yeah, we rehearsed it so many times. Other people are depending on me to be where I'm supposed to be. And that's, you know, all I'm thinking is it's tunnel vision.

[00:20:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:21:00] Kevin Dinneen: What I rehearsed.

[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:21:01] Kevin Dinneen: It's, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. So that was the last time that I performed so far.

[00:21:08]Lindsey Dinneen: I think he, he definitely, yeah. I mean, he's, he says that--but I remember after the performances, I remember you talking about, well, that was, that was my, what did you call it? Like your your one and done, or you're, you're retiring from performing after this or something . I don't remember. You had a funny catchphrase about it, I think.

[00:21:28] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I did. I, I think I said I was going to go into retirement while my career was at its peak, something along those lines.

[00:21:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and we kind of glazed over this detail, but the reality is Kevin is actually an incredibly talented juggler. So you might not know this about him, but he wasn't just going out and doing very basic juggling--although that would have been impressive too, because I really can't juggle very well-- but, but no, you should actually talk about a little bit about your juggling career because you actually, this is an art that you have perfected. Yeah. It's a whole thing for you.

[00:22:07] Kevin Dinneen: So far from perfected, but yeah, I started juggling at 13 and it was a fun, sort of a hobby. And in my teens, I started working at a nursing home, and decided, you know, it might be fun to put on a little show for the residents at the nursing home. And, and, that was really my peak as far as being into juggling and juggling often. So I'd put on a show every Sunday night for those residents where I worked. And then I started doing shows at other, other nursing homes and assisted living places and retirement--that whole kind of idea. And I just kind of--so technically I was a professional gettting paid to juggle.

[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: But, yeah. And then since then, I hadn't really juggled seriously ever...

[00:23:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Since then...

[00:23:01] Kevin Dinneen: Until your show. And I decided to actually keep it simpler for your show, because I didn't want to screw up, because it had been so long. And I didn't realize it until after I saw the video that I had accidentally, and without even realizing it, slipped back into a complicated move called a Mill's Mess, where your arms, your hands crisscross while you're juggling. One hand goes over the other and then you switch mid-throw. And, I did not even realize that I had done that. And I think I did it every night, and I'd never even realized.

[00:23:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. We went back and watched the videos. And, and you had, you had done Mill's Mess perfectly every single night without even being aware, being conscious of that was what you were doing.

[00:23:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, I didn't realize it. I was just in the zone.

[00:23:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Which is probably good because, you know, if you, if you had gotten kind of into your head, you might've started doubting it versus just having that muscle...

[00:24:02] Kevin Dinneen: If I had planned it, I would have worried about it and yeah, you're right. I would have been in my head about it.

[00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Kevin Dinneen: Or, should I do that? And for me, when I learned it, it's sort of a milestone. And, kinda marked I'm better than intermediate now. And so it would have probably--since I kind of defined myself as a more-than-intermediate juggler having learned that-- I wanted to kind of say intermediate level for the sake of the show so I didn't screw anything up. And I would have probably thought about that too much.

[00:24:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I can see that. It, it's sometimes, it's just better to let your muscle memory take over, and magic happens that way sometimes. So yeah. So you have a background in juggling, and he likes to say sometimes that he was a professional in the, how do you put it? You call yourself, you, you did the?

[00:24:56] Kevin Dinneen: Oh, I worked the nursing home circuit.

[00:24:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. I love it.

[00:25:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I worked for the nursing home circuit.

[00:25:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word. I love it. So, yeah, so, so what do you think, are you officially retired or are you kind of leaving it open-ended? 'Cause...

[00:25:12] Kevin Dinneen: Well, you heard me say that I retired and I've said it several times...

[00:25:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, you know, but are you retired? Or like, you know, "retired?"

[00:25:21]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. I would reprise that role. I would even expand it a little bit into like a three-part.

[00:25:31] Lindsey Dinneen: It could be a longer piece. It was very cute.

[00:25:34] Kevin Dinneen: And, you know, it was really just designed to fill the spot that was vacant. So yeah, I would be willing to do that.

[00:25:42] Lindsey Dinneen: All right, folks. You heard it. You heard it here. If I ever need to hold him to it, it's recorded. Oh my gosh.

[00:25:50] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So I've already asked or I've, I've already answered your three questions.

[00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah!

[00:25:56] Kevin Dinneen: Do you have three new questions for me?

[00:25:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, dear. You're my first repeat guest. So, no, I don't. Let me ask you this. Let's say you're at the end of your life and you can only witness one piece of art for the last time ever. So let's say this is like your, the last thing that you're gonna experience. Or, you know, like either you're gonna watch it or you're gonna look at it or you're gonna listen to it or read it or kind of whatever. What would that be?

[00:26:37]Kevin Dinneen: Can I say maybe one of two and like, if it were actually happening, maybe I would be able to decide?

[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. I think that's fair.

[00:26:46] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So, so actually you're in both. Probably "The Courting Jester," or the first time I saw you perform, which is at the Kauffman Center for Performing Arts in Kansas City. And, the show is "Underground," telling the story of the Underground Railroad or a story within that complex situation. But I, I don't know, probably one of those two.

[00:27:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, yeah, that's a good answer. Okay, well, and for all of you listening, I actually have the ability for you to, to watch "The Courting Jester." So if you are particularly interested in seeing it, which it is really fun, then we will actually post the link to it so that you can see it, like I said on YouTube and to get a feel for the, at least the original version, and maybe we'll have a future rendition. So definitely check that out on YouTube. And then, Kevin, do you offer any kind of personal juggling coaching, or is there a way we can connect with you outside ?

[00:27:57] Kevin Dinneen: So, you can connect with me. Comment on the video. And, if you're interested in learning how to juggle, I actually do have a method to teach that I came up with. And, so far, to have three juggling balls in the air at one time for a sustained length of time. We'll call it like a minute. I think my record is three minutes of teaching, so.

[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Yeah. And it's, it actually is a really, really good method to follow because I thought I could never juggle, and he taught me, and I'm not brilliant at it by any stretch of the imagination. I haven't practiced that much. But, but when I was practicing, based on his method is actually really simple to follow and it makes you definitely realize that you can do this if you want to. And you can just, as long as you practice it, it's a lot of fun. I had no hand/ eye coordination because I'm just not very gifted at sports or anything like that. And I just kind of assumed, "Oh, juggling is going to be another one of those things that is not going to come to me."

[00:29:08] Kevin Dinneen: And I haven't monetized my method. So if you're just interested, I'll tell you how it's done.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Well, thank you very much, Kevin. I appreciate it. Thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode. We would love it if you would like to share with any of your friends who might just need a little burst of joy and inspiration, and we will catch you next time. That's all for today.

[00:29:36] Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to share it with your friends. If you'd leave us a review and rating, and subscribe to our podcast, you'll get notified when the newest episodes come out. Thank you for sharing art with us, and we hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Joseph Pilgram! Joe is a professional dancer, ballroom dance instructor, and art-lover extraordinaire! He takes us along his journey from how taking a single ballroom class in college led to him pivoting his career goals from nurse to dancer, and has both heartwarming and humorous stories to share along the way. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Joe and Lindsey dancing their ballroom-inspired pas de deux, dance for two, "Wonderful World.")

Get in touch with Joseph Pilgram: http://stjoeballroom.com/ | 816-265-1444 | joe@stjoeballroom.com Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 34 - Joseph Pilgram

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so delighted to have as my guest today, my good friend and dance partner, Joseph Pilgram. He is based out of St. Joseph, Missouri, and he is an incredible artist himself. He is a professional dancer. He's a ballroom dance instructor. And Joe, I think you've probably dabbled in a bunch of other different things. Well, I would love if you would share just a little bit about maybe who you are and how you kind of got interested in art.

[00:01:13] Joe Pilgram: All right. Well, thank you for having me. And, yeah, I'm definitely excited to be here. So with dance is one of those things that I got into as a little kid with break dancing and watching the kids on TV, but I was more of a closet dancer and, you know, you'd watch "Footloose" with Kevin Bacon, and I'd do some punch dancing in my basement or, you know, secretly, and I never went to really any high school dances or any school dances except my senior year. And, that's how I ended up getting into dance was because of a girlfriend I had at the time that we went to a wedding and she saw her aunt and uncle doing some social dancing. I can't remember if it was a polka or swing dance or whatever it happened to be, but she said, "Oh man, that'd be fun to learn how to dance like that. Do you want to?" And I said, "Sure," knowing, you know, in my heart that music made my body move. I just never had any formal lessons. So, so we signed up for a class together at Missouri Western State College, which is now Missouri Western State University.

[00:02:29] And she, she and I broke up, but I thought, "Well, maybe I'll see her in the class." So, I, I held on, and classes started and she had dropped out of the class, but there were only three guys in the class and about 30 girls. And I thought, "Oh man, I better learn these steps pretty quickly because I don't want to look foolish in front of everybody." You know? So while taking that class, that the dance teacher, Paul Chambers, who also had studied modern dance under Hanya Holm, who was one of the pioneers of modern dance. He said, "You look to pick up the steps fairly quickly. I think you ought to look into other forms of dance." And so I, I took his word and I joined his Missouri Western dance company. I can't remember its technical name, but it was something along those lines. And, so he, he got me into doing modern dance.

[00:03:34] And, from there, I quote/unquote defected to UMKC after about, after about three years of taking ballroom, social dance and modern dance. And, so I followed a friend down to UMKC, a friend named Elisha, and she, she had already taken classes at UMKC and had enrolled there. And so I, I followed her down there and started taking classes, and very similar experience with Paul. The teachers said, "Hey, why don't you come back? Looked like you really liked dancing and you're picking up the movement at a decent rate. You're a little rough around the edges. Let's clean you up."

[00:04:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Love it.

[00:04:21] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. So that's, that's how I ended up getting into dance.

[00:04:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so then you, okay, so then you enrolled in college for dance, which I imagine had probably never been on your radar before, is that correct?

[00:04:39] Joe Pilgram: Correct. I didn't know a dance degree existed .When I started college the previous summer I was working construction and traveling to Omaha, Nebraska to work construction with a friend up there, and I realized, "Wow, this is a, this is a lot of hard work, maybe out-- see what, what other things are out there that might be indoors? I didn't mind really being outdoors, but I knew that, you know, by the time you're 60, you might not want to have that kind of a rough and tumble lifestyle where you're around a lot of heavy machinery that's really loud. And, you know, the possibility of getting injured and getting blasted by the sun nonstop. It was, you know, to each his own, I have a lot of, a lot of, respect for people in that field. I just knew that it wasn't cut out for me. And so, my dad said, "Well, you know, nursing is, male nurses are high in demand. Do you want to go into that field?" And so that's what I started initially at Missouri Western was looking into a nursing degree.

[00:05:50]And then, because I enrolled in the dance class, I found out pretty quickly that guys were also really high in demand within the dance world. It's kind of a joke. I tell the people, even at my ballroom classes is that, you know, I thank the ladies for, for bringing their husbands along and to, to have them there. Usually to get a guy to dance, it takes alcohol and yeah, and then he can't remember the steps in the class. So we're thankful that he's there and that he's, you know, here to learn to dance, and that everybody's sober and we're going to have a great time. So, so, yeah, it's one of those things that, guys... still are the competition's pretty steep among ladies, as far as I can tell. I mean, it's, it's always been fairly steep competition, wouldn't you say?

[00:06:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Oh yeah. Hands down.

[00:06:50] Joe Pilgram: Yep. And, yeah, at some point, guys stop dancing. My wife and I have a couple of kids and, and they dance to music. I think lots of kids dance to music, but at some point they either get shamed or feel ashamed or feel awkward, or maybe they just go into sports hardcore or, and they don't think about dance. But, another brief story is my dad. I was watching something and I don't even remember--it must've been the Olympics or maybe it was a pre-Olympic show that involved dancing. And I was, and I mentioned something, he said, "Well, that's pretty impressive what they're doing." And I said, "That looks easy." And he said, "Why don't you try it?" And I found out pretty quickly, it wasn't as easy as I thought. Yeah.

[00:07:48]But yeah, it was definitely stuff that, that I found interesting. You know, it's a form of art that is very physical, with your body being your instrument, you know. If you play piano, your fingers are very important, but you can replace the strings on the piano. You can tune the piano. A dancer's body, you know, has a limited amount of time, as far as what it can do. And, your whole body is your instrument. And so you, you start talking with people that are much wiser than you, that have lived longer, that help you understand how important it is to take care of your body if you want to have a lengthy dance career.

[00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. I have those conversations with my students regularly about how important it is to think of your long-term plan, not just your short term disappointment that you can't do something because you're injured. Because those injuries, if you don't take care of them, can develop into something that does end your future, right? So thinking about in terms of, "Okay, I missed out on this one opportunity, which is disappointing," but ultimately, like you said, you only have you, so you've got to protect your body and treat it right.

[00:09:11] Joe Pilgram: Yes. Yeah. And, also sometimes those injuries change your trajectory, or maybe how you interpret things as an artist, how am I gonna, how am I gonna work through this? Because when you're dancing professionally, sometimes you don't collect a paycheck if you don't perform. So you have to find ways either to make sure that you don't get injured, or how am I going to work through this safely? Can I alter this? Can I sculpt this thing differently and still get, you know, the, the idea across that I'm hoping to do?

[00:09:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's a really good point too, because there are certain circumstances where that's really important. I mean, I think both of us have dealt with that at various points in our career to just sort of, okay, this isn't going to work the way it used to anymore. For me, it's always back-related things, so I can't bend like that anymore. So how can we do this safely? Yeah. And supportive. So, yeah, absolutely. Cool. Okay. So then, all right. You went to UMKC, you got your degree in dance. And then where did life take you after that?

[00:10:32] Joe Pilgram: From there, while at UMKC, they offered professional dance experiences and worked with Wylliams-Henry Dance Theater, and gained some great knowledge, worked with some great choreographers through them. While at the same time, working with a couple of local dance studios that needed guys to perform in their Christmas shows, whether it be a "Nutcracker" or "Coppelia." I think we did "Sleeping Beauty," "Cinderella," that the classic ballets that are performed. And so that, that really bumped up my level of partnering really. Because that was why the studios would bring me in around Christmas time and that was something that was, you know, it was great that UMKC had those opportunities to provide. But, did those, and ended up heading down to Branson, Missouri, I'd probably say around 2004 and work a show there.

[00:11:39] The job itself actually felt more like factory work because it was cookie cutter dancing in the aspect of when you do a concert dancing, you know, it's artistic and it's all about the dancer, but when you go and do a show for somebody like Andy Williams, he's the headliner and you're the icing on the cake. You, you aid to them. And, you do, I don't know--I think with, with some of these shows, you do 200 of the same shows in a year, a couple of shows a day, depending on what the show was. And if it was, you know, around Christmas, I think Branson, Missouri's Christmas season started up November 1st. And, I know to maintain my sanity during that time, because you'd start rehearsals-- sometimes you'd have Christmas rehearsals in August, and you'd hear Christmas music starting that early. And to maintain your sanity, you'd find other things such as The Beach Boys to listen to, to throw your mind into like a different state to go, "Okay. I need to get someplace else so that I can get through this." And, well, like I said, the opportunity was a great opportunity. Sometimes you don't know what you want until you try something and you go, "Okay, that was all right. But I think I want something different."

[00:13:16] That's the beauty of working in the United States that you're not sealed into doing something that you, you don't want to do that. You can work towards finding that perfect job. A lot of times there'll be people that complain about different work. And I had a, a guy at Shoji's--we were complaining about rehearsals or something. And he, he said a hilarious line. We were complaining about something small, but we felt like it was a big issue. And, he was an older fellow that was in the army at one point, he was in Vietnam and that was his response was, "Well, this sure beats Vietnam." Okay. And that, and that shut us up pretty quick. Really puts things into perspective. We were like, "Okay. Yeah, yeah. He's totally right. Everything is great here. We're doing fine. We're not in a war." But, yeah, my journey from Branson took me back to the Kansas City area where I started working with Storling Dance Theater, and I ended up meeting you performing in that company. So that was a blessing.

[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:14:35] Joe Pilgram: And, then worked with you in your dance company, VidaDance. And, so had some, some fun doing that, and now you and I kinda catch up when we can, just to do independent work together and, yeah. That creative process, we can chat about that in a little bit. I always find it fascinating. Yeah. It's pretty cool.

[00:14:57] Lindsey Dinneen: It is cool. Yeah, actually, I think we should dive into that 'cause that is kind of a unique thing that we've been able to find this kind of synergy in the way that we approach music and choreography and all of that. And it's, you know, it's not necessarily the typical way of creating new work, but we've actually been really happy with the results of it. And I think, because we infuse so much sort of joy into the process, it's really obvious to our audiences too. And I think that that's kind of a fun, it's a fun, unique thing. So yeah. I'd love if you chat more about that.

[00:15:33] Joe Pilgram: Oh, definitely. Yeah. A lot of times when we get together, we've both been working so hard and pulled in different directions that we might show up and not have even focused on a specific song. We might not even know a song that we're going to dance to and haven't thought about any kind of movement to it. And so we show up and say, "Hey, how's it going?" And then we just start moving around, and yeah, art tends to just transpire. It's actually magical that it happens the way that it does it. I don't think that usually happens with other dance related choreography that, that I've ever fiddled with. Usually I racked my brain trying to think of, of things, but when we catch up, usually there's a, yeah, there's definitely joy involved and just art happens. It's, it's phenomenal.

[00:16:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, it is. And it's, it's really fun too, because I mean, one of the craziest examples that I can think of right off the bat is in this case, we did know kind of what the task at hand was. We knew that we needed to create a really fresh take on the "Nutcracker," you know, sort of grand pas de deux because it is, it's kind of a well-known thing. But when we created "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker," it was really important to us that we create something that was unique and was sort of the VidaDance approach. Yeah. And I don't, I had like a series of unfortunate events the morning that we were supposed to start this piece. And I was, I was so late to rehearsal. I was probably--how much time do you think we actually had to start that piece?

[00:17:36] Joe Pilgram: I think we had about a month, but when I say a month it was like four or five rehearsals.

[00:17:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it was crazy. And so in that particular day, we had like two things on the docket and I needed to do another thing right after it. I just remember like getting into the, into the studio, thinking, "Oh my goodness, we're starting from scratch. I have nothing in my head." And we just started moving to the music and that's a pretty epic pas that we created. It's really fun. It, the process is so fun when you can just kind of play around. But I think, you know, one of the things is so interesting-- an audience member pointed out to us last year after we finished performing--was, "t's obvious that you to trust each other a lot." And trust is such an important element in creating, you know, partnered choreography. Do you want to talk about that at all? 'Cause that was, that's definitely something that's like, especially free for you-- I mean, you're lifting, you're spinning, you're, you know, you're doing--oh, my gosh--is it ever like super intimidating or are you just like, "No, I've got this."

[00:18:46] Joe Pilgram: You know, I had never really thought about this until maybe having kids or getting married, but I always knew my limitations, but that's because I was always pushing my boundaries growing up. And I, you know, as an artist in general, I think that's really important to keep that in mind is, you know, having not being restricted, not, not cutting yourself short on experimenting with different things. And I remember just even running through the creek with my brother, pretending to be ninjas and jumping across the creek, or, you know, sometimes you'd make it. And sometimes you wouldn't, but at those moments, I didn't realize that I was calibrating my system and finding those boundaries. And so when it came to partnering, I already was familiar with what I could and couldn't do. And so, you know, it, it became second nature. And for the most part, it wasn't about me when I partner, that it was always about the person I was partnering, that the main focus was, make them look good. And I, I take a lot of joy in doing that. I think I like to help people. And that is a hands-on, direct thing that can happen on with doing pas de deux work is you're making someone look, you know, the best that they can, whether it's doing more turns than they usually could on pointe or, or flying them through the air for a lengthier amount of time. And, and I get a kick out of that.

[00:20:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, you. Yes. And I think that you've mentioned before you actually don't really prefer solo work. It's more partnering that, that really kind of resonates with you. Is that?

[00:20:56] Joe Pilgram: Yes, definitely true. Yeah. I, I'm not a soloist. I can do solo work, but I prefer not to, I believe that yeah, being out there--and I've joked with you that like hiding behind you is so much easier as a dancer. You know, obviously this, you know, I'm helping you stay on balance or, you know, different things, that, that we collaborate together. And I think there's a lot of fun in that collaboration process.

[00:21:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. I agree, yes. And, and just to be clear for anyone who's listening, who maybe hasn't hasn't had a behind-the-scenes sort of glimpse into the rehearsal process, but let's wait, there are a lot of funny moments that happen when we're rehearsing and the lift or something doesn't quite go as planned. I mean, thankfully, you know, as an audience member, you get to see this final image and it's, it's glorious and it's wonderful, but, yeah, it's, it is not always like that. So yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

[00:22:04]Joe Pilgram: Well, part of that is, is, you know, a to add to that backstory is I've never dropped a partner, which gives you the confidence to go, "Well, he's going to swing me upside down. My head's going to be close to the floor as we take this pendulum-like swing and then he's going to flip me back up."

[00:22:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes.

[00:22:29] Joe Pilgram: And having that, that confidence that I'm not going to drop you is huge. Now, when we were getting into the move and getting out of it is just as important artistically. And so those are the moments where, you know, things might be a little awkward where we're like, "Huh. Well, you did that little shimmy shake in the video that didn't really fit with the ballet. What was going on?" "Oh, well I had to reposition my legs and then you were moving your arms." And so, yeah. There's yeah, we get to, to try and try again during that rehearsal process, which is, is key to cleaning and, and, and making things look finished, but it's a lot is discovered in that rehearsal process.

[00:23:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Because the two of us tend to work by ourselves, without necessarily a third person to comment during the, at least the creation process of it, we actually utilize video quite a bit to capture it and then watch ourselves and go, "Oh, that didn't work very well. What is my leg doing," or whatever. And so that's part of our process first. And then kind of at the end is when we bring in, you know, other people to go, "Oh, it didn't really read for me or, you know, whatever it needs to be." So yeah. That's fun. Yeah. So, yes. So I was wondering if any stories come to mind, either like funny behind-the-scenes stories or a time when you felt really inspired or just is there anything that kinda stands out in your mind as, "Oh gosh, this is a moment to remember."

[00:24:11] Joe Pilgram: Oh, there's lots of them. How long do you have--two hours now? Oh, man. Yeah, there's, there's definitely been some, some silly stories. You've experienced a couple of them where I've ripped my pants. But, this is a great story. Yeah, the show must go on, right? I believe that was in a rehearsal. We were, I had bought these dress pants to perform. We were getting ready to do a show in Paola, and Lindsey, you were supposed to run facing me on a diagonal and then jump into the air and do a 180 degree turn and then land on my shoulder. And I squat down a little bit lower and I, and I go to lift you and during that time, there was a, a girl that was interested in your company and we just met her like maybe 15 minutes before and said, "Hey, you want to stick around and you can, you can check out our rehearsal."

[00:25:16] And, so you, you went running toward me, jumped into the air and I squatted down. And most people are familiar with when you have a can of biscuits that you get from the grocery store and you unravel that cardboard, and then you hit it on the, the cabinet, you know, the corner of something to get it to pop. And that's just what my pants sounded like. Yeah. And they exploded, the seat of my pants completely exploded, right in front of the person that we just met. So from there, I think I sit you down as gracefully as possible while backing up away from everyone and said, "I'll be back. I need to change my trousers." But that's happened in live in one show when I was in Branson and I had to kick my leg over my partner shortly after that. And pull her through my legs in a swing dance type move.

[00:26:21] And, oh, I, I was laughing hysterically. Well, I was holding my breath, trying not to laugh on stage. And then, yeah, when we left stage, we were both laughing pretty hard. And another time it happened just before the curtain went up and I had to race backstage and change into another set of jeans that did not match what anybody else was wearing. And that was a question after the show, they're like, "Hey, your jeans didn't match that first number. What happened?" I'm like, "Yeah, I was stretching and I jumped into the air. And then when I landed, they, they split out." But, it's yeah, I've been cursed with that, but, but yeah, it's definitely been other humorous stories, behind the scenes, things that do occur.

[00:27:09] Another one was when I was doing Shoji's. Yeah. And we were supposed to come out as tap dancing soldiers. They had this Christmas tree that was, it had hydraulics that, that allowed the Christmas tree to split in two and open up like a double doors. And these tap dancing toy soldiers would come out. And, we're getting ready to go out and we hear our music coming and then the stage techs, which they're a huge role, you know, it's one of those things, stage techs, whether it's in pro wrestling or theater, other sorts that they're, they're very important, but it's also, they're like backstage ninjas. You don't actually see them work. And so, the tech pushes the button to open the hydraulic tree and we hear him go, "The button didn't work, the tree's not opening." And it sounded like from a movie like "Predator," where you have this war type scene and things are going wrong. And, so the music's playing, the tree doesn't open and one of the guys gets on the radio and he said, "Guys, the tree isn't opening." And this, we probably lost about 15 seconds in which I think at least 12 soldiers were supposed to march out on stage, toy soldiers.

[00:28:38] And one of the texts says on the radio, we'll tell them to go around the tree. And, the original tech standing by says, he said, "Just go, go around the tree and dance." And the dance captain looks at him and says, "We don't know where we are." And he meant to say, "The music has started and our starting point has passed. We don't know where we are in the music." And he looked, yeah, he says, "We don't know where we are. " And you know, the guy looks at us, quizzically, the tech. And then he hesitantly gets on the radio and says, "He said he doesn't know where he is." And we hear the other guy on the far end shout, "He's behind the tree." Just the misinterpretation of, you know, the context of the wording and everything coming together and just miscommunication. But, yes, lots of humerous experiences that, that do occur.

[00:29:39] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. That is such a good example of miscommunication. When the two worlds' sort of languages and common phrases don't translate because that makes complete sense to me as a dancer going, "Yeah, of course you don't know where you are in the music. That makes complete sense." But of course, that sounds absurd to someone else. Like, "Well, you're right here. Nothing's changed." Oh, I love it. I love it.

[00:30:08] Joe Pilgram: But, but yeah, dance has been an interesting journey. You know, with it being a conglomeration, I feel, of other artistic elements. You know, most of the time we dance with music, but there are some times where we dance with no music. Dancing with live music is different than dancing with prerecorded music. And, and interpreting dance and making those connections with other forms of art, whether it's music, how you have the dynamics of sustained notes or loud and soft pianissimo. And, and, what's the other one? Is it fortissimo?

[00:30:57] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds right, but it's been awhile.

[00:31:00]Joe Pilgram: But, but we interpret those with our movement and whether our movement, we have high notes. You think about dynamics and things that make things interesting. And as an artist in general, whether it's spoken word, music, theater, even graphic design. How are you going to use these colors? Well, this is a bright color or, you know, moments like that, that we take in as dancers. And we go, "Okay, well, this is we're going to find something that's symmetrical. Okay. This part's going to be asymmetrical. Okay. This part's going to be--so-and-so's going to be on the ground and this other person's going to be in the air," and it's taken all of these elements in from, from different angles of art and applying it choreographically to make it an interesting thing.

[00:31:58] You know, that I had, a teacher at UMKC, it was Catherine Plotkin and she said, "You know, there's two ways that you can interpret this. You can have dance that tells a story, or you can have dance for dance's sake." And when I look at dance for dance's sake, I think about a kaleidoscope of shapes, moving from lines and curves and different designs happening, which, you know, falls under abstract art. As far as when you're watching a performance, some people don't get that, and we hope to, to allow them to, we want to bring them in. We want to show them, you know, whether it's from the description of the piece or maybe just a, a small writeup, and even you had mentioned that you don't want. Dance does seem like this insider's club, like, "Oh, you know, they don't, they don't get it because they're not artistic enough." And that doesn't seem like a great avenue, at least in my opinion to take. What was your take on that? I think maybe you're in the same boat.

[00:33:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely think that art shouldn't be an exclusive club at all. I think that art is really special. It, it helps people grow and connect and feel alive, feel all sorts of different emotions. And I think that whenever we, as artists, can connect with someone who doesn't have the same experience, I think that's a really special moment of humanity coming together. So yeah. That's you, you said it perfectly.

[00:33:55] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. Yup. Just taking those, those dynamics and you even touched on something when you said it, the feeling and I think in general, art should make people feel something. You know, you want to feel alive, whether it's happiness, sorrow, the gamut of emotion, you know, a wide range of emotions. But dance just feels like this outward expression of something that's like an inward feeling.

[00:34:24]Lindsey Dinneen: I know this is a tough question to answer, but are there any pieces that you've performed that really stand out to you as being extra meaningful or special or something like that? Just, you know, specifically things that kind of stand out as, "Wow. That was a really cool experience. Or I, I really could connect with the audience here," or, or anything like that.

[00:34:48]Joe Pilgram: Well, a lot of the pieces that you and I have done . But the stuff we've done together from "On a Whim," I enjoyed that, to even the "Nutcracker" that we did. You know, it was, I think there's a lot of passion, I think in the, the creative process that you and I enjoy versus, you know, performing is a great thing. And that's, that's your way of sharing it. I think that's that term, share, is more key to, to not being locked up as an artist and not being paralyzed as an artist because when you start thinking of it as a competition, then you start worrying about what are other people gonna think, "Is this good enough?" And, and I've been in those places where artistically I've had this giant block and, how do you work past that? You know, it's, for me as a Christian, through prayer and listening to the Lord that He gives you that, that confidence and says, "You got this, you have everything, the gift, the gifts that I've given you. Don't don't let these things beat you up. Don't slow down."

[00:36:19] A friend of mine, we were talking about one of my sons that has high-functioning autism. And she had said, "I think God makes up each kid and gives them gifts. I've watched kids in my career get medicine to help calm them down. And it changed who they were. What if the gifts they were supposed to have are supposed to be there. And what if their strength, or their super power, is something that we change and alter their personality to make them fit into a system better?" And, I really respected what she said with that. WE, there, there are signs of people all over. I think Steven Spielberg is a huge one. I believe he has dyslexia. And look at the amazing things that he's done with what people would say is something that's crippling, but he found ways artistically to, to bring out that, that super power. And, it's the same with, with my son, Timmy, how he, he sees the world differently and I really appreciate seeing the world through his eyes because, yeah, he, he just has this really interesting way and there, there is no fear in trying stuff. He hasn't gotten caught up in how things are supposed to be, which I think is key to an artist.

[00:37:54]Even Giorgio Moroder, the godfather of electronic dance music, had stated in the song with daft punk called "Giorgio by Moroder," you know, he talks about as experimental process. If, if you haven't heard that song, it's, it's a pretty cool song to listen to. It's was definitely influential and I've played it to my students, through the years just to let them know, 'cause he was from a small town and he didn't think that he had a chance, but he started tinkering around with a synthesizer. And I want to say he said something about the concept of harmony and then just, you know, you have a certain amount of rules, but how do you break through those rules? You know, if somebody is telling you this is the way it has to be, then some people don't question why they just, they just follow that instead of asking that important question.

[00:38:57] Well, why, and some of us out there, you know, your artists, your engineers, your creative people, that's what it is, at the root, is trying to unlock the creativity in people in general. Yeah, that's, it's, one of those things that took me a while to understand that. And I want to say Hanan Misko, he had said, you know, as an educator, that it's important to him as an educator to help unlock those, those hidden superpowers of those talents, you know, to enhance it. I think that's additionally, what I think about with partnering and marriage. I know it's like all different kinds of things that come at you, but, you know, that the person that you marry, you know, you should enhance each other's lives. And I feel like that's how dance partnering is artistically, that we're enhancing the audience's experience through the partnering process. And, rolling back to educators, that's it's not, telling these young fertile minds, this is the only way to do something. It's, it's hard to just sit there even as a parent, when you ask your kids to do something, it's better to give them a little wiggle room and see where they take something.

[00:40:36] Instead of what we usually do is we, as parents become impatient and we go, "Oh, just give me that. Let me, let me do that for you," instead of how maybe you and I grew up, it was, it was different. And our parents did give us that freedom to make mistakes, which rolls into a Bob Ross saying, " There are no mistakes. We just have happy accidents." And yes. Yeah. I mean, that's how you and I have even fiddled with the dance process, but you know, the kids' discovery process artistically to grow, or I say artistically, I really creatively because, because if you have creativity, I think that's actually a more marketable skill. With creativity, you can apply that to mathematics, to the language arts, to dance, to other forms of art and just finding different ways, whether it's to get to the same point or to have, you know, mold and sculpt and, and unlock something new.

[00:41:50] That's a story that my dad had told me, about air conditioning and its invention. And I, I don't know if you were familiar with it or not, but it was these guys that wanted to get the, the air conditioned. The humidity level would fluctuate and they were printing stuff. And so when it was laying down the print, I want to say it had to go through three times and it was, you know, something like blue, red, and yellow, or, something along those lines, the different colors. And so it had to be perfectly lined up well. In between the humidity might change and cause the paper to expand. And now the ink doesn't line up. So they figured out how to condition that air to make it very even, and the by-product was what you and I are comfortable with with air conditioning in the summertime. And have a really happy accident. Wow. Yeah. I have cooler temperatures inside your house in the, in the heat of the summer.

[00:43:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I, that's a great, that's the perfect illustration of a happy accident and how sometimes you just have to be creative and maybe try it a few different ways and keep tinkering away. And if, like you said, if you're, if you're creative and you're not putting yourself or someone else in a box and saying, "This is, there's one way, no other ways." Yeah, I really think it's when you start exploring that, that is where the magic happens and that is where these cool things get invented and, and, and everything. And all of that is an art form, kind of in and of itself. Well, that's great. Those are some really great insights and fantastic stories. So thank you, Joe, so much for sharing. I do have a couple of questions. I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that.

[00:43:53] Joe Pilgram: Alrighty.

[00:43:54] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:44:01]Joe Pilgram: Wow. Art could be so many different things. you know, for, for me, it's definitely passion. Whether it's, you know, I use art as a way to, to get my emotions out, to be able to dance it out. But other people as an art will sling paint or, you know, do different things. I believe that musician Sting, like the best songs that he wrote when he was with the police, he talked about, it was when it was a really bad time in his life, he and his wife were having problems and some of his best art came out at that moment. And I, I feel that, you know, art is definitely a, a human expression, that, that we all have. I guess I look more at other artists for the guidance in that realm, that it's, you know, it should be something that's explored, that it's something you create. You have people that are, that are machinists that some create some pretty fascinating stuff. 3D printer guys, doing things with that, and I don't know if I know you asked me what, what I think it is. I might throw this little plug in here from Felicia Rashad and it was, she was talking about art and she said, "Children," and she said, "Before they write, they draw. Before they stand, they dance. Art is a human expression. It's a fundamental human expression." And so I, I guess I'd like to hop on her bandwagon with that.

[00:45:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. I've always loved that quote. It is, it is so true. It's so, yeah, fundamental is the right word. Okay, great. Well, and secondly, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:46:13] Joe Pilgram: I believe that as artists, we should hopefully be able to, when people see it, that it reflects whether it's the personal things going on with that person, or maybe it's things going on around them that, that, content shapes context, is it? No, I want to say it's the other way around that context shapes content. And a Rodney Mullen, professional skater that I've told you about several times that that's, what he talks about is when he sees, you're going out and he talks about how the environment, how can the environment change the very nature of what I do. And I think as artists, that's an ebb and flow ever changing. A lot of the times that as artists, I don't think we ever stand still. Do you?

[00:47:13] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't. I think I, in one form or another there's something, there's something. I don't think I do. Yeah.

[00:47:23] Joe Pilgram: Yeah. And like you, hope to find you hope to be content. I think that's what we strive for is to be content, you know, or definitely happy with something that we're sharing with the world that you're, you're putting out there. I think, you know, being, being content with it is know, a, a big thing with art. We can always nitpick and tear things, you know, make things better. We feel, but, it never seems like your work is done. You could come back two years later and look at the same piece that you did and feel differently about, you know, your, your concept of what it was based on. And, you and I have probably experienced this with choreographers that set something on you, and then they say, "Oh, so-and-so is coming back to restage this piece on everyone." And in your mind, as an individual artist, as a dancer, you think, "Oh, this'll be easy. I already know this piece inside of the house," and the choreographer comes in, and there's a lot that's changed.

[00:48:42] And, you know, to, to maybe finalize on that is, you know, you see different quotes around. And even at my work, one of my work buddies has a thing posted up that says something along the lines of "Perfection is the enemy of the good." Like, you can have something that's really good, but maybe not perfect, but to get something perfect, it's like, you're going to reduce morale. You can tear yourself up terribly, emotionally trying to get something 100% perfect. And finding that contentment and going, "Yeah, I think I'm, I'm okay with that."

[00:49:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. I have a saying, a mantra for myself and tend to share it of "done is better than perfect." You know, excellence in everything, but ultimately done is better than perfect. You have to get, you have to allow yourself to, to do your best, and to do good and not be so obsessed with chasing perfection that it, it stops you. Perfection kills creativity too. Well, final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit. So inclusive referring to an artist who put something out into the world, whatever it is, and provides some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or, you know, just the inspiration or something. Versus exclusive referring to artists who put something out there, but don't provide any context. So it's exclusively, essentially up to the audience to kind of decide what they think.

[00:50:28] Joe Pilgram: You know, I, I guess I leave that up to the artist. I think there are moments where maybe I, I choreograph something and not really care because the art has to escape somehow because it gets bottled up in you. And I, I think a lot of artists feel that way, that when, when you're not creating art, it starts hurting other parts in your life. And so I think sometimes it's the artist is going to create something that they don't really care. It just has to get out. And then other times they might be a little bit more inclusive and try to somewhat steer the narrative, but not, not be too controlling with it. You know, just giving a little context clues here and there. Yeah, sometimes you, you see pieces of art that actually--I'll give you an example.

[00:51:36] I, I'd choreographed a piece called "Battlefield for the Mind," but I didn't get it typed up properly. And it came out as "Battlefield of the Mind.? And that one word changed how people interpreted the dance. Because what I was trying to convey was "Battlefield for the Mind" would be controlling people, whether it's through the media or other avenues. But when one of the students that I had came up and asked me. She watched the show and she said, "Oh, I love that piece. What was it about?" and I said,"What did, what did you take from it? What, how did you apply it to yourself?" And she said, "You know, I've been dealing with depression. And for me it was a bunch of different voices and what was going to survive." And I actually loved her interpretation of that, and that she was able to apply it to herself in that fashion. And so I think both have valid merits, inclusive and exclusive for, for what they are.

[00:53:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That makes absolute sense. So, well, again, thank you so much, Joe, for being a part of this podcast and for sharing your art with the world. Obviously I'm biased. I'm really thankful that you are a dancer and we do get to dance and create together. But, you know, you have many avenues for that and I just appreciate that you do, and speaking of, I know this is kind of a weird time of life for everybody, but under more normal circumstances, you are a ballroom instructor. Is there any way for anyone who's interested in maybe taking lessons with you that they could at least keep in touch when you do resume?

[00:53:43] Joe Pilgram: Yes. Yeah, actually, at this moment, I'm, I'm not teaching obviously with the lockdown that, but if people would like to contact and ask me about dance when ballroom classes would start up, I teach more along the lines of social dance versus choreographed. So it's a, I look at that like Legos or any kind of construction material or scrapbooking material that, that you can have different materials and piece them together in different ways, multiple times. It doesn't have to be the same way you piece it together every time. But, and so with social dance, that's how it is. And, and I teach genuine lead and follow. But people could contact me either by finding my website, which is stjoeballroom.com. And that's STJOEBALLROOM.COM or you can call my, my work phone for the ballroom classes and it's area code (816) 265-1444.

[00:54:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes. Well, and if anyone is in the market for ballroom instruction, I have to say, Joe is a really, really fun teacher. So he's good at making everyone feel comfortable, even if this is your very first time. And, yeah, there will definitely be a lot of, a lot of laughter and giggles and it'll, it'll be good. Well, thank you again so much, Joe. I really, really appreciate you being here today and, Yeah, I appreciate all that you contribute.

[00:55:22] Joe Pilgram: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

[00:55:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:55:39]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:55:49]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you about Audible. As a podcast listener yourself, you already know how great it is to listen to something while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is. Audible has thousands of titles of audiobooks, as well as podcasts and other cool things, and they're offering a freeaudio book to Artfully Told listeners. When you sign up for a free trial membership, you'll have 30 days to decide if Audible is right for you. And you can cancel at any time without being charged and still keep your free audiobook. Sign up for your free trial and audiobook at www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Again, that's www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Thanks, Artfully Told listeners.me.

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In this episode, I welcome Debbie Dinneen! Debbie is the owner of Seasonal People who sculpts and creates original Santas for retail sales and special orders. Her background, growing up in Orange County, CA, plays a significant role in her artistic journey and endeavours, and she delights us with tales of her adventures. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of one of Debbie's original creations!)

Get in touch with Debbie Dinneen: http://www.seasonalpeople.com/ Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 33 - Debbie Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very excited to have my mother-in-law on the show today. Her name is Debbie Dinneen, and she is an incredible artist and has wonderful, amazing stories to share from her journey through all sorts of different kinds of art. And Debbie, thank you so much for being here. I'm just so excited to have you.

[00:01:02] Debbie Dinneen: I'm happy to be here. This should be fun.

[00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. Well, would you mind sharing, to start, sort of your background , maybe kind of your journey of, of how you started dabbling in different art forms, and yeah, maybe what you're up to now too?

[00:01:20] Debbie Dinneen: It, you know, it really is truly a journey. I, I credit a lot of my interests to being raised in Orange County, California, where you're really bombarded with the arts, visual arts, theater, just so many great avenues. And it's tough to pick just one. I started it with a deep interest in theater, and even when I was young, I wanted to be a choreographer. That didn't happen. But I really enjoyed street theater with the Renaissance festivals. I had a lot of exposure to Disney artists and artists from all different areas and walks of life. So I really appreciate having had the opportunity to be raised there. Later in life, I , just before I moved to Kansas, I was working, making tissue heart valves from pigs' heart valves.

[00:02:21] And I still use many of those tools today in my sculpting and Santa making. So that's just one more tool that I had to be able to transfer and apply to sculpting. I went to JOCO [Johnson County Community College] out here for some pottery classes. I was a very poor potter and found myself making odd little things instead. And I had children at home and decided that I was going to start doing sculpting and trying to sell them at some local craft fairs. I started with cave men. One of my favorite pieces was a cave man on a fossilized rock gritting his teeth with a thorn in his foot. I loved all the natural aspect and using natural fibers and things that we just find in our environment. Later, I decided that I really wanted to express joy and laughter and do it through my art. And I had done it at the Renaissance Festival, creating characters like the Rat Lady, and I really wanted it to come through my art. That's when I decided to start sculpting and making Santas . I use a lot of natural fibers and it just lent well to what I wanted to portray. I noticed that a lot of the Santas available were, were angry looking and I wanted some that looked more fun-- silly if you will, happy. So that's the direction I went.

[00:04:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love that it was about celebrating joy and laughter and creating these-- they're amazing, you definitely have to go check out her website and see them , hopefully get one for yourself. Because the detail in these Santas is just incredible and you can definitely see the joy come out. They're so fun. Yeah.

[00:04:42] Debbie Dinneen: I, I like to make action figures, I call them . For example, Santas sledding on their bellies and their beards blowing back in the wind. That's one of my favorites . Santas making wine in half barrels and holding their wine glasses up, stomping grapes with their feet full of, of the wine. It's just fun things. Things that people will want to put around their home during the holiday season that will bring them joy. And happy Santa is a lot more fun than a grumpy one.

[00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, amen to that. Well, and I am, I know because I have the privilege of owning some and also have seen a lot of your work. But one of the things that I think is so amazing about what you do is the level of care and attention to detail. So it's like you mentioned, incorporating natural fibers and things like that. But I know that you literally import specific things when you're looking for it. So can you talk about maybe how, how do you decide, or how did you come to, you know," this is my standard of quality that I infused in this?"

[00:06:00] Debbie Dinneen: That kind of came along with my first experience in retail. And I was actually supplying Santas to what used to be called Everyday's a Holiday at Crown Center. And the gentleman that owned the store had such a good eye. And anytime I make a Santa-- I can only actually remember feeling like this is perhaps a perfect piece and that rarely happens if you're an artist, 'cause we're always striving for perfection and we oftentimes don't feel that we have met that. So, and this man had the ability to spot exactly the same thing that I had a problem with with my Santas. It was uncanny and it was disturbing as well. So I, it really bugged me, but that, that taught me. And in time I learned, you know, if, if my Santas are going to be in a high quality retail environment, I need to meet that challenge. So I do import pelts from, from Tibet , China . I also use , I buy a lot of vintage coats and I learned how to work with the pelts and the fur to use them and incorporate them with my Santas. It's, it's kind of exciting because you get to, because it's, it's a lot of different mediums that you use, not just the clay.

[00:07:34]So I get to use a lot of different fabrics' fibers, and then I incorporate with the Santa. So I get to learn other little side skills like embroidery, sewing, of course. I, oftentimes my husband would make sleds, sleighs, and help me. He helped me learn how to make the Santa stand independently, which it's a tricky thing and you have to make sure that everything is balanced well, so the Santa remained standing at all times. So it, it really has been a learning experience. And you just keep, you just don't give up. And the first part was learning to sculpt. I did have the ability to see three dimensionally. It's a skill I needed making the tissue heart valves. It, it lends well to sculpting. And each, with each Santa, you really do learn something, or you and or you go, "Oops. I remember now." And you change your direction or step it up and make it a little bit different. It's, it is really truly a journey of learning.

[00:08:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, all these complementary skillsets then that are completely art-related, but that you've kind of acquired along the way. That's really neat.

[00:09:03]Debbie Dinneen: I really enjoy going to the store and being outside or inside the store. And I bring clay with me and I really enjoy having the kids come up and I have extra tools for them and some clay and they try their hand at it and they, they love it. And they're excited by it. That's one of my favorite things to do.

[00:09:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun! Yeah, I'm sure they are so delighted by it. So when you're creating a new work, is it often an inspiration that comes from finding, you know, what ends up being a cute little prop or accessory in your finished creation? Or does it happen where it's maybe more commissioned, someone says, "I'm looking for this type of Santa."

[00:09:54] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's interesting that you ask that. I just completed a piece for a local Kansas City barbecue , Rosedale Barbecue in Kansas City. And it was a piece of , the granddaughter. The, the grandfather started it like 81 years ago, and the granddaughter wanted a piece to honor her grandfather. And it was a very emotional thing for her. She really loves her, loved her grandpa. So I ended up making a smoker out of, I think it was 950 bricks , little bricks and then side pieces, their sign , and the Santa, instead of sculpting just a Santa, I sculpted her, her grandfather from pictures that she supplied me. So that I that's my favorite kind of thing to do, because if I, if it's something so special to them, then I'm so much more invested.

[00:10:58] Then there's times when I know, for example, that people really enjoy the wine Santas and I enjoy making them because it makes people laugh and it's funny, and it's something that they haven't seen before. It, inspiration can even come --I may find one little antique or vintage item that is special and I, and I then will build a whole Santa around that. And , and if they tell a story by visually I, I, my that's part of my goal as well. So anything you add to it gives it more depth and meaning, and I love doing a special order Santas simply because, you know, this person is invested in it, and you work so hard to make them feel happy about the finished product.

[00:11:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. And so when you're going about creating, especially these special works, do you always go in a certain order when you're creating your Santas, or is it kind of, you know, maybe one day you, you feel like sewing, so you'll do the coat. And then the next day, you know, you're ready to sculpt or does it, does it kind of flow like that? Do you have a, or is it very specific?

[00:12:24] Debbie Dinneen: You know, that's a really good question because many pieces are really different. Like when I took on this challenge of the Rosedale Barbecue Santa, I felt like the greatest challenge for me was going to be making the smoker. And it was a challenge. But it turned out really well. So I felt really good about it, but I felt like I had to do that before sculpting his head and his hands. And I think because I knew for me it was something I had not done before. And, and I knew it would be the most challenging thing for me. So yeah, in that case, I did it that way. And then you, you basically, you build them from the ground up.

[00:13:16] So for example, the wine Santas, I would start with the wine barrel , fill it with materials to keep it weighted at the bottom, then put layers of the grapes and then a layer of liquid glass paint to make it look wet. And already I've got a wire running up through the bottom of it, so the Santa can be built onto that wire armature. And so I will build that up and I, I always have to remember to get the pants on over that wire before I go any further, or then you have a Santa with no pants. So when that thinks that piece needs to be built in a specific order, so they're all a little bit different. And each one presents their own challenge. Even if they're just sitting, you have to make sure that they can sit and stay seated in an upright position. So these are all little tricks of the trade that you learn along the way.

[00:14:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I know that when you create your Santas, they each come with a very personalized card. And so what do you share on those cards? Is it, is it the different things that are unique to it, or how does that?

[00:14:40] Debbie Dinneen: That is, is exactly right. I try to take the time to write what special items I have incorporated into the piece. I'm like, if I had used Mongolian lamb's wool or mink from a vintage coat I like to, or bridal satin, I use a lot-- I like to let people know what special things go into them--or the crystal eyeballs. And I make their own teeth myself. I make their tongues and their tonsils and my Santas are really known for their open mouth smiles. And that's what makes them look so good.

[00:15:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love these Santas. They're so, they're so fun. They're so whimsical and yeah. So I'm kind of curious because, all right, 'cause you'd mentioned a couple of times, you know, your, your actual job experience back in California, like you said, helps you with your sculpting, what would turn into your sculpting skills. But I'm curious, have you always had a really steady hand? 'Cause I would think that with the intricacies that you were working with and that you still do, that would be challenging. Like I, I'm sure I wouldn't be successful at that.

[00:16:00] Debbie Dinneen: You know, it's funny. I didn't feel like I had a lot of great motor skills that way, small motor skills. But once I had done that job for the lab , and most of our work was done under a microscope, and they were the first tissue heart valve made from pigs. Heart valves is pretty delicate work. And I think that really helped tune and hone my physical skills . Even an example is, we would use a blanket stitch on the stent, which we put the valve in. We'd use a blanket stitch, which of course, you know, you use when you sew, so the two together working with small things, small tools, being able to see in three dimensions , it all kind of came together and was helpful for me. And then I think perhaps overexposure to Disneyland Disney artists. My, my maid of honor at my wedding was a Disney artist. As a matter of fact, I brought her there to, to apply for the job myself and she cartooned for them for years. So, I and, and wanting things to just be happy and full of joy. That's what I wanted to portray through my Santas. And I think I really do think my exposure to Disneyland and being raised in Orange County probably played a big role in that.

[00:17:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I'm sure that it did.

[00:17:40]Debbie Dinneen: We were kind of a humorous family, and we love theater and entertain. It's just really a fortunate, fortunate thing I think to be, to be around. And we've just always been silly. What can I say?

[00:17:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well, I can attest to that and I love it. Yeah. So, okay. So I know that at one point in time, you had an opportunity to maybe-- and please correct me if any of the details are wrong-- but had an opportunity to maybe take your Santas and mass produce them. And you ended up deciding against that. Can you speak to that? I'm just really, that is a, that was a huge, bold step, which I, you know, have totally respect, but it's, I'd love to hear about that.

[00:18:32] Debbie Dinneen: The decision I made was simply because it's a really tough thing for a manufacturer to replicate exactly your piece. And in most cases, If you try that, it's not done well enough. There's a local company here in Kansas City that did the best job ever on somebody else's Santas. And I would have to have had that standard as well. That opportunity never occurred, but most of the reproductions are done in China and you don't have a lot of control, and the quality is never as good as what you can do yourself. So I decided that I'm better off staying small-scale and doing what I really love and being able to do whatever I want. It, there's a lot to be said for working independently and not having to you know, like quibble with somebody--how many buttons you can have on the Santa's coat or or what colors. And so for me, the creative process is making each one exactly the way I want it. Unless of course it's a special order. Then I collaborate.' I love to take people's ideas in that case. And oftentimes they'll bring me childhood toys of theirs or their children's toys or grandparents' pictures , all kinds of things, so that I've, over the years, incorporated into their special order Santa. And that that's really a fun thing. It's all about being able to have the freedom to create and make people happy with the results.

[00:20:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right. You touched on the fact that, you know, it could be what maybe they would consider to be a small detail, like the number of buttons, but to you there's intention and there's purpose behind that. So it makes complete sense that, you know, as an artist, you want to continue to feel very proud of what you create, and so I just want to circle back to the Renaissance Festival because I, I know you spent years actually doing that and you talk about your love of theater and performing, and I know you and your husband had a whole set of very well-known characters. Do you want to share more about some stories from that?

[00:21:18] Debbie Dinneen: Sure. I created, I got exposed to the Renaissance Festivals in California and, and there did a jester, and that was my original character. And then moved to Kansas and immediately got involved with the festival out here, which at the time was a benefit for the Kansas City Art Institute. And lots of the Hallmark artists were involved. We had great times. I created a character called the Rat Lady. Because somebody told me I couldn't, and what I did was I got a dozen dead rats from KU Med Center, and they were donated to me, and I had them mummified. And the Rat Lady was a mad woman who believed she protected people from the plague by having them kiss the dead rat on the lips. Well, these were pretty disgusting, but they were safe and men all over the Kansas City area were kissing these rats on the lips. It was just awful, but I had a good time doing it. I would say, I would say after they kissed him on the lips, I told them it would help protect them from the plague.

[00:22:29] The irony is of course that the fleas on the rats actually helped spread the plague and they would come off the merchant ships. And that's one of the ways that the plague was spread so widely, but I would say, "Oh, look, his lips have brought it off his face." And the, the wives would always grab their husbands and drag them off. It was hilarious. And then Tim, my wonderful husband, is very kind of quiet and shy. And so he created a character, the Kissing Beggar and he held a sign, "Kisses: One Penny" and, and he would actually sell kisses for a penny. People, husbands would give him a penny or a dollar and just go, go say, "Go kiss my wife." And the wives would run, but they enjoyed getting their picture taken with Tim. So it became a family event. Even our son as a small child and a baby was out at the festival in costume. I performed in California, Texas, and Kansas City. And It was after that, that I started doing Santas.

[00:23:40]Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Do you ever miss those days and would you ever consider going back and doing it again?

[00:23:46] Debbie Dinneen: You know, I kind of miss it. I remember some of my memories were going to sleep at night, hearing people, screaming, "Rat Lady, Rat Lady." It got to the point that I couldn't hide and eat lunch because somebody wanted me to come out to get a picture. I had a whole string of dead rats. I had several upon my body. I wore--this is really bad--but I would catch flies in jars, freeze them for a couple of minutes, stick them on my face with spirit gum. Spirit gum is used to put on beards, mustaches, that sort of thing. Very tacky. I get the fly out of the freezer, put it on my face. It would warm up and wake up and be buzzing and flapping. And so that made people wonder, "how does she do that?" One man even turned around and slapped me in the face. He was, he was panicked because he saw these flies on my face. I usually had at least four. And, and I thought, "Hey, he slapped me!" It was, it was hilarious. It was the oddest reaction that I'd gotten. But my word, yeah, I got, I was removed from the top of the Crown by security. I was doing a radio show. And that was, it was the only time I've ever been removed from somewhere. But you know, when you're in rags and you look dirty and you have rats , it's really dubious. So it was appropriate.

[00:25:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:25:20] Debbie Dinneen: I did a lot of the local TV and radio here, and enjoy enjoyed doing that as well, and schools, personal appearances at schools. So switching gears to doing Santas was really good for, for my family. And for me , generated extra income. I didn't have to drag my kids out in all kinds of weather. So it was a really good transition. And I still do that to this day. My Santas are at Crown Center in Occasions. And believe it or not, it was the first store I started out in, and it was Everyday's a Holiday then. It's Occasions now on the second floor . I've sold my Santas for a few years down at Big Cedar Lodge in Branson. I'm just in one store now. And I do sell directly from my website, which is seasonalpeople.com. So I'm still making them and I still enjoy it.

[00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I just am curious: are there any stories that come to your mind as sort of, you know, either funny things that happened related to the arts or heartwarming or something that kind of has stuck in your memory as a moment to remember, because you just want to hold on to that encounter with art?

[00:26:51] Debbie Dinneen: You know, there have been some moments. I was in selling at a store, in a store on the Plaza and it was just heartwarming to see people coming in and enjoying just looking at them, whether they bought them or not. And just hearing the nice comments and seeing that the kids that just love the Santas, and to me being there and getting to see people's reactions is really fun. There is one time , the lady didn't know that I was in the store and I was kind of behind something. I, I heard her say, "Oh my God, that is hideous. I would never have one of those in my house." I laughed so hard! And I appreciated hearing that reaction because some people find sculpture or doll-like sculptures kind of scary. So to hear her make that comment, and it just tickled me to death. Than I, I never said to her, "Oh, I made that," because I didn't want her to feel bad, but you know, right. This goes to show you: everybody has a different idea or thoughts on what a Santa should be, and some I do are very traditional. I actually got a lot of reaction from a Santa that I do that is drunk and he's on his back. He's got a bag with alcohol in it. He has a gum, chewed gum on the bottom of his shoe that he stepped on and a, a wrapper from, or a receipt from the liquor store, and his tongue is hanging out. And he's just flat on his back and it's actually a pretty cute piece, but people really would find that funny too. That's a special piece and I like to see people's reactions with that.

[00:28:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And how cool to be able to witness somebody else witnessing your art and hear their reactions. Oh my word, that one lady.

[00:29:00] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, most of the time it's really, really complimentary. When I heard that, I could not help but laugh, and I didn't want her to feel bad. So I went around this area where she couldn't see me to do my laughing. And it, it's good because you know what you don't ever want to get too arrogant as an artist. You don't ever want to think your stuff is the best, in my opinion. So it's good to hear that kind of honest response and it keeps you in your place. You know what I mean? So, yeah. That's all part of it and I would never think that mine is the best or that mine are perfect. Like I said, in all these years, I've only done like one that I couldn't find fault with. I've made a lot of Santas over the years, so, you know, it's-- I don't know if it's an artist thing, where we just don't feel we're ever good enough--but I don't ever want to make that mistake of feeling that I'm superior because I think you can get in trouble that way. You've always got to be hungry and keep trying.

[00:30:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Good advice. Well, and I think that is so important because I think as artists, we are striving for excellence, and perfection is just not something that can be reached in art, is what I've decided. I agree because it's always subjective too, like you probably are very proud of the work. Should be very proud of the work that you create because you do put your, you put yourself in your art and your soul into creating these beautiful works of art, but ultimately somebody can look at it and go, "Oh yeah, that's not for me. You know? And same with every other kind of art."

[00:30:53] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. It is subjective. And I understand that and appreciate it. And, you know, it makes me feel just fine if they don't like it. So, but that was the wildest response I think that I've gotten. Most people see them and they laugh and they say sweet things. If they, if I'm there, the store oftentimes will tell me what customers have to say and it's so-- in these later years, it's usually very positive. In the younger years, I look back at my early work and I think 'uggh." So I sure get it if a customer would think that as well. But it's a learning curve, just like with anything, practice, you just keep practicing. And sometimes things just go wrong. Sometimes I glue my fingers together with super glue. You know what I mean? Like it's like, wow, I've been doing this with years for years. I can't, what did I just do? I glued my fingers together now, how do I get out of this? You know, it can be anything. And mainly for me, because I work with so many different glues , paints for so many different things. There are so many opportunities for something to go wrong along the process.

[00:32:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I'm curious, have you ever gotten to a point-- I think as an artist, maybe we've all gotten here at some point--but gotten to a point where you're just so frustrated and fed up with what you're trying to do, that you just like scrap it and start again?

[00:32:31]Debbie Dinneen: You know I usually can save myself, but there are some things that I do I've had to scrap because that I was trying to make like a piece to go with it, a prop, whatever. Yeah. I've scrapped a few things. Normally I can keep working on it to get it done. Sometimes I have to walk away from it for a day, and come back to it. That's rare these days. I usually just try to keep hammering through until I get what I want. But if the piece is really intense, like this recent one I did, I worked on it for a whole week longer than anticipated because I didn't, I hadn't gotten to the point I needed to yet.

[00:33:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, you've mentioned you have lots of great little tidbits of advice that have kind of been scattered throughout, but if there were somebody who was kind of just starting out and thinking about maybe wanting to pursue an artistic endeavor, what kind of advice would you have for that person?

[00:33:40] Debbie Dinneen: Never give up. It's that simple. You know, so many of us will pick up a ball of clay because we'll be, we'll get an opportunity, or we'll pick up a paint brush. If they continue on and they don't give up, they're going to end up being successful in getting to the point where they like the results.

[00:34:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's really great advice. And I absolutely agree. You know, you mentioned some of your early work, you thought, "Ooh." Well now, you know, now you think, "Oh man, I could do so much better," but every artist is like that. And so I think your advice is so spot on because, I looked back at some of the pieces that I created back in the beginning and go, "Ooh, well, I've come a long way."

[00:34:27] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then there's a middle point too. If I see a Santa that is more recent, it's like looking at the, the baby you made. It's like, "Oh, I remember that one." And you, you remember it fondly. But the real early stuff is for me is a little dubious, but you know what, it's a learning curve and we all have to start somewhere.

[00:34:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Absolutely. I actually have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, completely subjective. Is that all right with you?

[00:35:02] Debbie Dinneen: Sure.

[00:35:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:35:11] Debbie Dinneen: Oh boy, to me, first thing that I think of is anything visual, but you know, art encompasses so much, you know, music, theater, dance. Art is everywhere. Art is when I look out my back door and I see birds on my bird feeder. We're just surrounded. That's how I feel about it.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. I agree. Okay!

[00:35:42] Debbie Dinneen: And if you can, if you can work with it, or work with things that are around you and available to you and create more art, that's super cool to me.

[00:35:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. Well, and then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:35:59]Debbie Dinneen: Keep an open mind and try, just keep trying and try anything. And then, teach if you can, if you have the opportunity.

[00:36:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's a great answer. I have yet to hear that. That is, that is a great answer.

[00:36:17] Debbie Dinneen: Yeah. Information share. And for the people coming behind you.

[00:36:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Perfect. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll share what I mean by that. So inclusive referring to an artist who puts his or her art out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's, you know, program notes or a title or the inspiration or something to kind of give a little bit more background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't necessarily provide any context so it's completely up to the viewer or participant to decide how they interpret it.

[00:37:06] Debbie Dinneen: In, in my particular situation, I think inclusive and which is why I put information on my cards. But every art is different and every artist is different. They have to make their own choices.

[00:37:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Perfect. Well, first of all, Debbie, thank you so very much for joining us today. I really, really appreciate it so much. And I have to say to anyone who's interested in these Santas, please, please go and check out her website because they're just stunning. And do you mind repeating what that was again?

[00:37:48] Debbie Dinneen: Not at all, Lindsey, seasonalpeople.com. It's pretty easy.

[00:37:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And we'll provide a link as well. And I also just want to say on a personal level, of course, I have had the privilege of getting to see a lot of your work and hear the stories of the Renaissance Festival and so many things. But I have to say also thank you for incorporating art into your life and sharing that with your kids. Obviously I have personally benefited from that because Kevin grew up participating in the arts, which then he was super interested in helping to continue, participating in them with me. And so that's really special.

[00:38:32]Debbie Dinneen: And he's very creative as well, and that, you know what, I'm grateful that we were able to pass that down and share it. It's, I'm totally grateful about that. And then we do still with our grandchildren as well.

[00:38:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, and it's just one of those things that's, that is so much a part of you and your experience with art and even how you answered the question about the, the role of, of passing down, of teaching the next generation, essentially. So yeah, that's really important. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you again so much, like I said, for being here and thank you to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you'd share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:39:39]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I've set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making our monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors, so everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day, and I'll catch you next time.

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In this episode, I welcome Shari Augustine! She is a professional ballet and modern dancer, competitive ballroom dancer and teacher, piano instructor, and yoga instructor. She has recently pivoted to include another art form in her repertoire, and she shares about her various artistic endeavors in this episode.

Get in touch with Shari Augustine: (785) 307-2294 | shari@waltersdancecenter.com Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

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Episode 32 - Shari Augustine

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so very thrilled to have as my guest today, the absolutely lovely Shari Augustine. She is a dancer, a pianist, a yoga instructor, a dance instructor, a ballroom dancer--I could go on and on and on. And most recently has been really deep diving into another area of art, which is sewing. And I'm just so excited because Shari just has such a multitude of interaction with art all the time and is very passionate about it. So thank you so much for being here, Shari.

[00:01:17] Shari Augustine: You're welcome. It's my pleasure.

[00:01:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing with us just a little bit about maybe, you know, yourself and kind of how you got started in all of this.

[00:01:31] Shari Augustine: Well, I think I've always wanted to dance. I remember growing up, the neighbor girl that I rode the bus with, she--one day a week, she didn't ride the bus because she stayed in town to take a ballet class. And I was always so envious of that. I didn't take ballet when I was growing up. My first ballet class was when I was 28 years old, so I started quite late for that type of dance, but I did square dancing and baton twirling growing up and piano playing. And of course we did 4H, so I learned about sewing and crocheting and that sort of thing. So when I became an adult, that was when I decided to try some dancing and I think my first real love of dance came when I learned how to do Country Western dancing. Of course, I don't know if I should share it, but I was 19 years old and I was going into a bar to Country Western dance. I was underage, but you know how that is back then.

[00:02:42] Lindsey Dinneen: You know.

[00:02:43]Shari Augustine: So then that led to a friend of mine was learning how to do ballroom dancing. And so we would go--I lived in Junction City, which is two hours west of Kansas City-- so once a week we would drive on Tuesday nights. We drove to Topeka because they had a dance class there that was ballroom. And so I started learning how to do ballroom dancing and then I started doing competition after I met a Pro-Am dance teacher who trained me for dance competition. And it was really because of that dancing that led me to want to move to Kansas City where I would be closer to my dance lessons because I was driving two hours to come to Kansas City from Junction City and take dance lessons and then drive two hours back home.

[00:03:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:03:42] Shari Augustine: That's kind of how that all started.

[00:03:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Talk about commitment. Oh, my word. You are amazing. I can't believe you were driving that much for that. That's awesome. So, okay. So, so many gems to unpack on all that. That was so fun. So, so you didn't take your first ballet class until you were 28? I did not know that. Wow.

[00:04:06] Shari Augustine: And I had just moved to Kansas City. I didn't know where anything was in Kansas City, except for the place that I worked and a few different dance studios and that's about it. So if you wanted to give me directions, you had to give me directions from either where I worked or from a dance studio, go this way, all the way to this or that dance studio. I decided I was going to, I had always wanted to take ballet. And so I just decided I was going to do it.

[00:04:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's awesome.

[00:04:42]Shari Augustine: It was at DanceWorks Conservatory, and so, you know, you paid a monthly fee, so you had four classes for one fee and it was an adult class, but my second class there, I couldn't make it. So I needed to do a makeup class, you know. The only available makeup class to do was with young kids. So my, my second ballet class, I was in class with a bunch of probably six year old girls. And so I think they knew a whole lot more than I did about ballet. And they just kept looking at me like, "Who are you and why are you in here?"

[00:05:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I feel like that takes a lot of bravery. I mean, just in general, whenever you start something new that's--I think for most of us, at least--that's a whole other level that you have to kind of psych yourself up to. But then--oh my gosh--but then if you're doing it with six year olds, yeah, that would, that would be challenging.

[00:05:44] Shari Augustine: Yes.

[00:05:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word. So, but you know, it's so interesting because that experience combined with, of course your background in ballroom and your background in the other art forms as well, is that you've really been able to be so well-rounded. I mean, do you think that that has helped, like having so many different genres essentially that you've, that you've worked in and dabbled in, whatever. Do you think that that's kind of impacted the way that you approach maybe even teaching or your own performing or anything like that?

[00:06:20] Shari Augustine: I think it definitely helps because, you know, certain genres will focus on certain things and then other genres focus on other things. And so you can kind of bring that together and pass it on to students. You know, all your different experiences, just giving that insight from, you know, ballet and modern, I can take things that I know from that, or even from yoga and give certain aspects of it to my ballroom or country students. So I think that definitely helps. And then the intricacies of ballroom dancing--you're moving, not just for one person, but essentially it's two people becoming one unit. And so it makes it a little bit different than other styles of dance, but it can still be beneficial today to take that style of dance information from that style of dance and apply it to other styles of dance, if that makes sense.

[00:07:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that brings a unique perspective that you can share with--well, not only for your own self, because I know you're still actively dancing yourself--but, but also for your students. I think that's really interesting. So with the ballroom dance, I know our listeners don't know, but that you are actually an active competitor. Do you have any experiences or how did you get into that in the first place? Cause it, did it start just for fun, you know, at parties or bars and then kind of morphed into a more competitive approach or, or how did that all come about?

[00:08:13] Shari Augustine: Well, I fell in love with it the first time when I started driving from Junction City to Topeka. And so I talked to my, the teacher, the instructor from that class. And she, she knew I wanted to start doing competition. She knew I wanted to take private lessons. So she hooked me up with someone in Topeka, but then I said I wanted to compete. And so the person in Topeka wasn't registered as a Pro-Am teacher. So, the instructor of the class then said she was going to drive to Kansas City and would I like to go? And I said yes. And so that's where I met my registered Pro-Am teacher. And so I took a lesson with him and he was getting ready to compete. No, actually I competed with a person in Topeka first, just for one competition. And then I started going to coming to Kansas City. And when I met my teacher here in Kansas City, he was getting ready to do a competition and we had two two-hour private lessons. And then we went and competed, I think in something like, I don't know, 15 different dances.

[00:09:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word.

[00:09:38] Shari Augustine: Yeah. But the good thing, I mean, with me being the follower and him being the leader, I don't think that would be possible if it was the other way around because as a follower, of course there are following skills that you have to acquire, but as a follower, you don't have to think of what steps you're going to be leading. You know what I mean?

[00:10:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Basically like you don't have to on the spot come up with, "Okay, now we're going to do this turn. Now we're going to do this."

[00:10:12] Shari Augustine: Yeah. You don't have to plan as to what you're doing. And of course he already had routines ready. And so it was really just making sure that I could follow everything that he was doing. And so we went and competed and had a good time.

[00:10:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is an incredible story. You, you are so brave. I think I would have been like, "Ha yeah, no, no, thanks." Oh my gosh.

[00:10:42] Shari Augustine: Yeah, a lot of pre-competition jitters.

[00:10:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, no kidding. So okay. For those of us who aren't involved in that world, and that includes myself, can you tell us a little bit about the difference you had mentioned a couple of times of, you know, Pro-Am and I'm not familiar with that term versus having someone who's just an instructor. Do you mind just sharing a little bit about that?

[00:11:06] Shari Augustine: So an instructor is considered a pro you know, if they are making money on it and it's their livelihood. They are considered a pro. And so whoever they teach, whatever student they teach who doesn't have the livelihood of dance as a way to make a living, then they are considered to be amateur. And so you match up the instructor with the student. And if the, if the professional is a registered professional with NDCA, you have to be registered with them either as a Pro-Am teacher--and currently they're requiring amateurs to be registered-- but you can also be registered as an adjudicator, as a professional dancer who dances with another professional dancer, so there's several different categories that you can be registered for. And so he, at the time was registered as a Pro-Am teacher. He was also registered to dance with his professional partner, which at the time was his wife. So that's why we were able to compete together versus the other gentlemen in, in Topeka wasn't able to.

[00:12:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay. Interesting. Well, that, that makes sense. They're trying to keep everything kind of regulated to an extent, I guess, so. Awesome. So then you also are a yoga instructor. So when did your interest in yoga start emerging?

[00:12:47]Shari Augustine: Well, when I was, I went to KU for my dance degree, and it was not long after that I think I started kind of looking at yoga. And I remember thinking how, how boring it was. You know, it was so slow moving, whereas dancing a KU, everything is on the go, on the go. So other forms of dance, everything is constantly moving. You're not thinking about breathing. I mean, sometimes you do, but not as much as in yoga, you just hold everything. And of course, then I learned there's different styles of yoga and there's a whole lot of different layers of yoga. But I started thinking about it. I think I was certified in, I want to say 2013, so that would have been 10 years after I finished my degree in dance at KU. But I just, you know, it was looking for other avenues of income and to be able to still use movement in the body and to be able to share that with other people.

[00:14:07]And so I, I just decided, "Okay, I'm going to go get certified in yoga," having not really ever taken a yoga class. Oh, I, once I signed up to do the 200 hour certification, I found this place in Olathe called Darling Yoga. And it's two sisters that have a yoga studio, very good yoga studio. They had an introductory rate of $20 for two weeks unlimited yoga. And so I said, "I'll take it." So I went there and I decided I was going to really make it worth my money. That two weeks and spending $20, I decided I was going to take 20 yoga classes.

[00:15:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:15:02] Shari Augustine: I spent 27 hours doing yoga in two weeks. Wow. Let me tell you, it was a lot harder than what I had originally thought. So that was sort of my introduction to yoga.

[00:15:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. Wow. That's incredible. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Well, well you did dive right in there. Awesome. So, okay. Oh my goodness. And then you're also a pianist and a piano teacher. And you said if I'm not mistaken that you, you'd been doing that for since childhood.

[00:15:43] Shari Augustine: I started playing the piano when I was five. And so I just took lessons. I was kind of picking around on the piano and, you know, we'd come home from church and I would just go downstairs to the piano and start playing the songs that I had heard in church. And so my parents thought it would be a good idea to do piano lessons. Yeah, so they started me learning how to play the piano at five. And I was very, very shy growing up. And I remember telling my mom after a couple of years of piano, that I didn't really like it and I didn't want to continue. And so my mother, a very smart woman, said--she used my shyness against me--she said, "Okay, if you want to quit, then you'll have to tell your teacher."

[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh.

[00:16:40] Shari Augustine: And I never could get over my shyness and tell my teacher that I wanted to quit. So I continued on.

[00:16:49] Lindsey Dinneen: That was very clever. Oh my goodness. Well, and probably now, you know, having those skills is so valuable and being able to teach them to others. So I, I guess it all worked out in the end.

[00:17:04] Shari Augustine: It did all work out in the end. I feel like, you know, there are people that just have music in them and other people that it's really hard to get an understanding because it just isn't, you know, where their gifts lie. They have, everyone's so different and people shine in one area, maybe not in an other area. And I, I feel like that's one of the gifts that I was given is feeling and understanding music and it sort of comes relatively easy for me by comparison, you know, watching other people in their growth and struggles in it. So I feel like it's kind of a gift that was given to me.

[00:17:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think so, too. I think your understanding of music has probably allowed you to thrive in such a wide variety of styles of dance too, because it is so different counting a waltz than a, I dunno, swing, than something else. And those are just two examples, but I'm just thinking, you know, your ability to, to connect with music has probably really helped all the forms of dance that you we've embarked on.

[00:18:23] Shari Augustine: Yes, definitely.

[00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So one really fun, random fact that I happen to know about Shari is that she participates in this challenge. Is it like twice a year? You'll have to chime in here in a minute, but she does this amazing challenge, where--is it The Worldwide Splitters? Did I get that right?

[00:18:47] Shari Augustine: Yes, it's the Worldwide Splitters Network and I don't even know who put me into this group on Facebook. I mean, I don't even know who to thank for putting me into it. Suddenly I was in this group and I was, I looked at it and I thought, what in the heck is this? This lady from Australia is the founder of it and she's in her seventies. And she has spent her life as a contortionist. Well, she still does performances as a contortionist, as far as I know, she still does it.

[00:19:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:19:27] Shari Augustine: But she founded this group and there are two 60 day challenges every year. And since the start of it, she's broken it up between the adult group and the youth group. But she gives really good advice as far as alignment. She's very good about encouraging you. So I've learned a lot from being in this group and I feel like I've had a lot of growth and a lot of things that I can pass on to other people who are interested in flexibility. They will also have, besides the two 60 day challenges, they also have many challenges in between if you're not quite ready to go the full 60 days doing splits every day. So they have a 30 day back flexibility challenge and a 30 day mini splits challenge. So for the splits, you do your stretching and splitting five days a week with two rest days. For the back flexibility challenge, they do three or four days a week for stretching and warming up your back and then doing the poses that are required.

[00:20:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:20:44] Shari Augustine: And then you have to post the required pictures in an album on this Facebook page. Only dedicated splitters.

[00:20:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

[00:20:58] Shari Augustine: So I ended up with two of the gold, what's it called now? I can't even think--Gold Standard Award winners. So the first time I was notified that I was, I was in the top 10, a couple of years ago and I ended up placing sixth .And then I think it was last year or the year before, I was contacted by this lady in Australia that started it. And she was saying a few things and kind of leading up to I was in the top three and then pretty soon she said a few more things and pretty soon she broke the news to me that we have chosen you as the Gold Standard Award winner.

[00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:21:46] Shari Augustine: And I just totally was, I was just amazed because there are so many really amazing splitters on the page.

[00:21:56] Lindsey Dinneen: How exciting. Well, congratulations.

[00:22:00] Shari Augustine: Thank you.

[00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. So I know, you know, this year has been a challenge, to put it mildly for many, many people, but artists, especially I think have really had to either pause or pivot or any number of things. And so, how has this kind of impacted you, and then maybe what other kinds of exciting things, you know, has emerged?

[00:22:28] Shari Augustine: Well, because everything I do is face to face and not really something that I prefer to do on, you know, online, I did not know what I was going to do. And when I first heard about the lockdown, I called up my dad, who by the way, is, was a round dancer. He and his wife were known across the country as round dance instructors. And, so they had, you know, a place in their basement where they would do dancing and, but I called him up and I said, "I have no idea what I'm going to do." And I just started crying because I didn't know any other time--if, if I'm low on cash, if I need to make more money, I just work harder. And that's how you do things. You just, you find something else to do. You figure out a way to make more money, to be able to, you know, take care of your financial responsibilities.

[00:23:38]And because we're in a position where we definitely need to have an income. My husband had a stroke four years ago. And so he wasn't working for a couple of years. And so it put us kind of in a bad place financially. And I was trying to make ends meet and keep on doing things and keep on doing things. He's back to work part time, but that's really after having that hardship, we're just not in a place financially to, to be able to just stay home. No, I was talking to my dad on the phone and I just started crying. I don't know what I'm going to do. I have no idea. I'm at a loss. Any other time, if I need something, I just work harder. I go find a job. Everything I do is face to face.

[00:24:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:24:31] Shari Augustine: And so I just kind of took a deep breath in, and okay. This is okay. I'm going to clean my house. I'm going to exercise. I'm going to walk every day. I'm getting outside. This is okay. Well then, you know, the mask mandate was starting to come into being, and I thought, "Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find a good mask pattern and make a couple of masks and send it to my daughters." My youngest daughter is now a nurse. She was going to nursing school. And so I made a couple of masks for her, and I made a couple of masks for my daughter in Colorado and my sister who was in Topeka. And so I posted pictures of these masks on Facebook. And before I knew it, I was just swamped with orders for masks. And so I just started. I became a full-time mask maker for, you know, a month and a half. So I was sitting at the sewing machine every single day, just trying to keep up on my mask orders and I would send them, you know, I sent some to Florida. I sent some to the East Coast. I sent some to the West Coast. I assume some, you know, up North, I sent them all over the place, as well as people here in Kansas City.

[00:25:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's incredible. Are you still doing that or is it kind of slowed down a little bit or how has that all worked out?

[00:26:04] Shari Augustine: It has slowed down a lot. I've had a few people, because they know that this is going to go on for a little while. I had a lady that bought some Christmas fabric and she said, "Well, I'm going to need some masks that go with the Christmas holiday. Will you make some, if I send you the fabric?" And yes, of course, but, I have one order right now, but I haven't made masks for awhile. So it's kind of, it was high demand for a while and now it's just kind of here and there.

[00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: So. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:26:43] Shari Augustine: If anyone wants to, you know, have masks made, I'm happy to do it, but it's no longer full-time.

[00:26:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Well, yeah, like she said before the recording started as a sort of like get up in the morning, sit at your sewing machine all day. Go to bed. Do it again. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

[00:27:05] Shari Augustine: I was very grateful for the work, you know, the good Lords always provides and, and I'm always amazed at what He sends my way. So.

[00:27:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, indeed.

[00:27:18] Shari Augustine: Definitely a blessing.

[00:27:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all those stories. That is so fun. I loved hearing about all the different things that, you know, you're a part of and how that came about. And that's just really, really cool. So, I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.

[00:27:42] Shari Augustine: Okay.

[00:27:43] Lindsey Dinneen: So the first question is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:27:50]Shari Augustine: I think it's different for every person. It's a way of using your creativity to allow your feelings to be put out there without--sometimes you can't say what your feelings are. And so it's a way of allowing your feelings to come out for you. Yeah, or it, it can be putting a message out and everyone might take that message in differently, because we all look at art differently and that's okay.

[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect.

[00:28:32] Shari Augustine: And that's the thing about artists that it is different for everyone from the artist to the person who is looking at the art and that's okay.

[00:28:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And so what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:28:53]Shari Augustine: I don't know generally speaking, but for me, I enjoy sharing things with people to hopefully make an impact on them or make a difference in their lives.

[00:29:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:11] Shari Augustine: You know, one way or the other, whether it is looking at things from a different perspective or just appreciating the beauty, feeling the music or feeling the movement. When I was doing, I did the liturgical dancing for a while and when I did that--liturgical dancing is dancing in church--and it was always my prayer that the spirit moving in me would move the spirit in the person who was watching. So that's kind of, I like to have an impact on people by sharing my art.

[00:29:53]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. That's beautiful. And then my final question, and I'll kind of define my terms a little, a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts his work out there, and provides some context behind that, whether that's, you know, something as simple as a title that kind of describes it, or whether that's a series of program notes, or a backstory or something like that. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their art out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So then it's kind of solely up to the viewer to decide what's going on.

[00:30:39]Shari Augustine: Personally as a viewer--well, and as an artist too-- I think there's value on both sides. But as a viewer, I would prefer to have the backstory and whether or not my take on the art is still the same as the person who has created the art--it may or may not be--but I just like to have that background for my own understanding. And to, to try to see more clearly where the artist is coming from. But on the other hand, you might look at a piece that's out there and if you have no context, then it can either say something to you or it might not say something to you. But it may or may not be the same as the intended, you know, voice of the artist.

[00:31:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:45] Shari Augustine: Yeah, I think it's really preference.

[00:31:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup. Yeah. Well, and I like asking these questions because it is subjective and the answers are subjective too, because it's art, which is so fun. That's so special about it. So.

[00:32:03] Shari Augustine: So my piano student that I had today, we were talking about artistic liberty. And so I said, when you are, because there was a correction I made for him and he's an older gentleman, I made the correction and he kind of halfway joked that it was his artistic liberty. And I said, "Well, since we are at piano lessons, we're not going to have artistic liberty. We're going to do what the music says as a learning tool, but when you are in front of an audience and you are entertaining an audience, you can have all the artistic liberty that you would like to have."

[00:32:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I like that a lot. I love that perspective. Yeah, because you have to start with the technique. I often tell my students the same, very similar kind of thing is, let's start with the, all the technique that you, you need to know and let's learn artistry basics. And then when you get to a certain level, that's when it becomes super fun, when you can make it your own, but you have to have that base first layers to it. You know, you, you learn this part of it and then you learn this part of it and you just keep on stacking it on top. And then at the end, once you have solidified all the lower layers, then you can make it your own and really put the emotion into it.

[00:33:36] Shari Augustine: I have another couple of students who they're working on the Rumba, and every week when I work with them, they keep saying to me, "I want to do it perfectly." And I said, "There is no such thing as perfect." That's the beauty of art is that there is never perfection with me, or if anybody else agrees with me, but that's just what I say is that there isn't perfection, but there is beauty in the imperfection.

[00:34:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I love that. Yes. So on board, no, I agree with you. There's-- you will never be able to achieve a level of perfection and, exactly like you said, but there is so much beauty in the imperfection, so it makes us human. That's what makes us relate to each other. So love it. Oh, that was very insightful. Thank you. Well, if any of our listeners are interested in connecting with you, either for lessons or masks or whatever, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:34:39]Shari Augustine: Yes. So we were talking about the, the Pro-Am information from before and so at that time, I was the amateur side of the program, but now I'm the professional side of the Pro-Am and I am registered with NDCA. I take students to competition for both country western partner dancing, ballroom partner dancing, and most recently I have a couple of titles for competition line dancing. So I do all sorts of training for, you know, the partner dancing, the line dancing, and so any of that is available. If you are interested in contacting me, you can call or text at (785) 307-2294. Or I have an email address shari@waltersdancecenter.com. And so I do mostly private lessons, or sometimes people have hired me for workshops or classes that's outside of the studio.

[00:35:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Yes. And for anyone listening, who is interested in those kinds of lessons, Shari is awesome. She is definitely your gal to learn from the best, but also learn from somebody who's just such a nice, encouraging person. You will definitely feel validated and, you know. Basically, if you have nerves about trying anything, whether that's piano or ballroom or ballet or yoga, she would be the person to go to, and Shari, so thank you again so very much for being on today's episode. I really, really appreciate it. And I just want you to know that, I, again, I have the privilege of having, you know, watched a little bit of your journey, worked a little bit with you, and I just know that you do make an impact on people's lives and you do add so much beauty to the world through your art. And so I just want to say thank you for that. And thank you for being on this episode. I really appreciate it.

[00:36:55] Shari Augustine: Thank you very much. It was my pleasure.

[00:36:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And thank you so much to all of our listeners who've listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:37:15]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Tessa Priem! Tessa is a solo dance artist and the creator of "Inner Reformation: An Autobiography Danced." She shares about her journey from a massive health crisis to healing and redemption, and the way that the arts helped her navigate it all. (Fun fact: this episode's cover image is of Tessa and is her show's promotional photo!)

Get in touch with Tessa Priem: https://www.innerreformation.org/ | https://www.facebook.com/innerreformation | https://www.instagram.com/innerreformation/ | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYoSv7-yyBnOc1C9j2sJ-NA Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 31 - Tessa Priem

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the lovely Tessa Priem. She is a solo dance artist, and we had the privilege of meeting at the Kansas City Fringe Festival several years ago. But thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:53] Tessa Priem: Thank you, Lindsey. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course I would love if you don't mind sharing just a little bit about who you are and maybe your background in dance and sort of the arts and, and go from there.

[00:01:09] Tessa Priem: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I'm not really known. I frequently say I'm a big, fat nobody. So I live near Kansas City. And in fact, I've lived near Kansas City for just over a decade. Lindsey, so you and I met at the Fringe Festival in 2018, in the summer of 2018. And so by that time I lived near Kansas City for eight years. But when we met, that was literally the first like, I believe maybe it was in 2017 that I started stepping out into the artists' community in Kansas City. So it took me a long time to even start connecting with artists, even though I live so close to such a, an amazing city that supports the arts so well. So as you highlighted, we, you and I, met at the Kansas City Fringe Festival. And, to give a bit of my background, I grew up studying dance. I wouldn't say my training as a child was necessarily super by any means at all. But I had this great love for it. I loved to perform, and performing for an audience is probably one of my most favorite things to do as a kid and as a youth, especially in high school.

[00:02:46] So I went on and I studied modern dance in college. And then I danced with a small company in St. Louis for about five years. And then I went on a long hiatus from performing probably about nine years, maybe just a little over nine years. And, in that time I moved to Kansas City and I experienced a health collapse. I experienced a physical health collapse, but before that I experienced a mental, I experienced severe depression. So I just had a lot of things in life that, that went pretty terribly for a number of years. And I stopped dancing altogether in that time. So, my answer is already getting quite long. There's so much more I could share, but kind of to wrap it up, Lindsey is that throughout my health collapse, during my health collapse, it began in the year 2012. I thought I was dying and I'm a mother of three children. So it was very, very devastating to me, the thought of potentially leaving my children behind.

[00:04:00] So what happened was, I really wanted to share my life story with my children in the event of me dying. And so in 2016, which before that, I had tried writing out my life story and every attempt failed. I, it just was not working. So I'm kind of, in a sorta miraculous way, I was just standing in my kitchen one day and the idea hit me that I could dance out my life story. So, I had never seen a solo dance show before in my entire life, Lindsey, cause you know, I mean most dance that we see is done in companies or you usually dance with other dancers, you know, or, or at least another partner. To see a solo dance artist was completely out of my realm of experience. So just standing in my kitchen, my struggle with figuring out how can I tell my life story to my children, the writing isn't going well, that idea literally just hit me. "You can dance out your life story." And so, that's what I started October 31st, 2016. And it took almost a full two years to get the dance together.

[00:05:27] And it debuted July, 2018 at the Kansas City Fringe Festival, and that's when I met you, Lindsey. And so, so my solo show debuted at that time, my life story danced out. It's called "Inner Reformation: an Autobiography Danced." And, after the Fringe Festival, I had to decide what to do: to either quit that solo performance or to say, "I'm going to make this my life's ambition." And it was really scary to kind of make that decision, but I ended up deciding this is going to be my life's work. And so, so now I'm four years into the journey and it's a journey that certainly has its ups and downs, but I continue to build on, I continue to work on that show, absolutely. But I also am working on other artistic projects as well. And so I'm still a solo dance artist just traveling by myself. But I have people along the way that support me. You know, us doing this interview is an example of that.

[00:06:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, so I am particularly interested in your autobiography danced, "Inner Reformation" and sort of your creative process and the, how that all came to be because, you know, undertaking a full length show, like you said, as a company is a task enough, but as a solo artist, I mean it magnifies and just even building up your stamina and all those kinds of things. So can you just share about all that process?

[00:07:08]Tessa Priem: Yes, I mean, I could talk for hours about this. Yes. So the way I formatted the solo show, directed those two, almost two years, in me creating the autobiography dance. And that was that I, at the very beginning, I set a goal and that was that well, first of all, let me back up just a little bit. When I had that idea in my kitchen to dance out my life story, there had been a CD that I had been listening to. I've been teaching a dance class. It was my first dance class that I had taught in years, because again, I had gone on a really lengthy hiatus from dancing. And in that time I'd had children and again had experienced severe depression, had experienced a complete health collapse. So as I was standing in my kitchen, literally my body was still quite weak from my health collapse. So just the idea of even doing a solo show--you spoke of the stamina required for solo show-- I had very, my strength at that time was not, I was pretty weak still. So anyway, even so, I had the CD in mind again, because I, I, for the first time was teaching this class and I used this particular CD in this class.

[00:08:31] And so as I was standing in my kitchen and, and that idea hit me, I turned on that CD, Lindsey, and every single song-- there were 12 tracks on that song, on that CD--and every single song, Lindsey. I knew it, it was like automatic. I knew what part of it, my life, that song, my life fit to that CD, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And unlike trying to write the book for my children and it being entirely unsuccessful, it was automatic that when I listened to the CD, it was just all clear. And that's why I kind of call it miraculous. It's just, it was so effortless and so surprising just out of the blue, right? So, so after I had that sort of clear picture, if you will, of what every song was going to be about and how it applied to that particular period in my life, for that particular event in my life. I, and knowing that the CD itself had 12 tracks, I decided that I would create one dance per month for one year. And then the second year I would start perfecting. Well, no, no, wait, sorry. I super underestimated things. I thought that by the second year I would be able to perform it, but that proved absolutely ridiculous because working cause it ended up being a 57 minute show.

[00:10:12] So to create one dance per month for 12 months, and keep in mind, I hadn't danced for years and keep in mind, I had just come from a terrible health collapse that left me often unable to walk. I was so weak at certain times that my husband had to carry me. It was, yeah, so, so I was kind of just starting over, in terms of moving my body once again. So creating one dance per month, it was very silly of me to even think that the whole dance would be perfected by that second year. And I could just spend the whole year showing that dance. So what ended up happening was I ended up spending almost all of the second year perfecting the dance. And then finally, by the time that Fringe came around, the dance was just barely ready for me to show is quite a crunch because I was still building up that stamina to be able to perform for nearly an hour. So, that was, I guess, kind of the process, Lindsey, have one dance per month and then with the goal of showing it in the second year, and by, by complete mercy, I was able to show it at the Fringe Festival in the second year.

[00:11:36]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. And it's also, I love that you were so deliberate about breaking down your process. I think that for a lot of us, when we kind of maybe look at a, a high level goal like that, you know, it, it can feel overwhelming unless you do break it down into manageable chunks. So that, that's great. I love the way that you processed through that.

[00:12:03] Tessa Priem: Yeah. And I think what helped with that was that the fact that there were 12 songs on the CD. But again, those songs just coincided with the chapters of my life, if you will. It's even funny, Lindsey, that the, even the titles of the songs, it's almost like it was written for my, it's for my life story. It's, it's bizarre, because even the titles of the songs themselves literally apply to what the dance is about. So it's what each dance is about. So another little thing that I consider just kind of strange and, and nearly kind of, I don't know, I don't know if using the word miraculous is that or not, but that's the only word I can think of, you know? So, or maybe providential or something like that. So, I think again, that's, that's part of what guided me certainly is the fact that it had 12, 12 songs and that helped me set one dance per month. So it was kind of laid out for me nice and neat. I didn't have to think too hard about it.

[00:13:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love that. And so I'm just curious, what surprised you the most along the road, either throughout the process or audience reactions or what stood out to you the most?

[00:13:26] Tessa Priem: Hmm. Oh, one thing when I began the project, I had so much doubt. My self-confidence, if you will, was so extremely low, Lindsey, I didn't think anyone would want to watch me. I thought I would be boring. It's just, it's just mind boggling to me of, of where my mind kind of was at that time, thinking that I had almost nothing to offer to a crowd, to an audience, right? And so that was a long process. Another, I guess, surprising thing was that I dealt with a good bit of injury while creating it, literally. And so, and this was, this was quite challenging because I only had a month to complete each dance, right? So, so literally Lindsey, by the time, like nearing my 11th and 12th months, I was literally crawling on the floor cause I had injured my ankle and it was unbelievable. I'm serious. I was crawling on the floor and so a lot of the dance had to be, I had to end up, as I perfected it in the second year, I had to change a decent bit of the choreography to especially get me on the floor because I had messed up my ankle so badly because my ankle wasn't used to dancing as, cause I was dancing on it daily. And so it was just such a quick transition for my body to go from not dancing and to have gone through as complete health collapse.

[00:15:04] And by the way, I had lost probably about 20% of my body mass in that time. So I had lost so much muscle tone and so on. So it, it, it was, it was hard on my body, but here, let, let me say something that was so surprising, Lindsey, that countered all of this doubt, self doubt along the way. And that countered my injury was creating the solo show was the most joyous thing I had done for 12 years in my life. I had had a really horrible stretch of 12 years. And so this solo show was the first year that I had genuine happiness and joy. And so any burden that I had, almost felt so insignificant, if it can't by comparison, because the joy was just so fulfilling and uplifting, and I needed that so badly in life, I needed that so badly.

[00:16:07]Another thing that was surprising is, because this was such a big goal of creating a solo show, creating all 12 dances in 12 months, you know, and having never seen a single solo show in my life. So I didn't know what I was doing. And furthermore, I am not one to open up easily to people about certain events of my life. So the fact that I was even making a solo show about my life story and was even considering opening that up to my own family, let alone the public, was like insanity to me, right? So, there were so many times along this journey throughout these two years where it really seemed that the solo show might not come together because my ankle was too messed up.

[00:16:52] Or, there was a particular event when I was six months in this solo show, I ended up having sort of a screening of it. And I invited about 40 people to come and I was halfway through building the dance. So I had six dances done and they were going to come, about 40 people, and they were going to watch me dance because I wanted their feedback to know, "Is this just a stupid project?" I wanted to know, "Are people going to be bored with me? Are people going to boo me off the stage?" You know? It ended up where we ended up doing the showing in the basement of my home. And so, because we couldn't fit about 40 people into my basement, we had to break it up into two showings. And so about 20 people came to the first showing. So, and then I did these two showings back-to-back, where about 20 people came to the first showing and then the next set of people came in.

[00:17:46] And just to give you a clue, Lindsey, about how weak I was at that time. So I only did about 30 minutes of the dance at that time. I was so weak after the first showing that I literally laid on the floor of my basement. Well, the next set of people came in and I had to direct a few of the men who came to set up my set for me, because as the show progressed, my props change location. But, I had even more props early on in the creation of my show, like a lot more props than what you saw at Fringe. But anyway, I was so weak at this time, at six months into the creation of the solution that I had to lay on the floor and build up strength while I directed these men to put my props in place. And I had no idea if I would be able to build up the strength to perform this the second time for the second show, but here's a great surprise. What happened at the showing was incredible. The people supported me. They were just kind of blown away. And it affirmed for me that I should keep going and creating the solo show that I shouldn't stop, that I should keep going. And so I did. And so those are, I guess, just some of the surprises along the way.

[00:19:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And how encouraging too, because I know all artists at, I think I can only imagine at all levels, so to speak, have those moments of even if initially, you know, you're really passionate and you think definitely this is a good concept, until you have some feedback, you still, it takes so much bravery and courage to put yourself out there and put your creation out there and hope. So that's so great that you had people, you know, to help you along the way and say, yes, this concept is important and yes, you should be doing this. Well, and, so since you debuted it at the Fringe Festival, my understanding is that you've gotten to do some additional work. Have you gotten to perform that particular one again?

[00:19:59] Tessa Priem: I did. I performed the full solo show at a small university in Minnesota. I was supposed to perform it at least in two other locations, but I ended up having to have major abdominal surgery. So both of those shows had to be canceled. But you know, kind of like you and I were talking before we started recording this conversation, Lindsey, the timing of things in life can sometimes be such a gift, because those shows being canceled and me being completely out of commission, totally unable to move, because dancers, I mean, perhaps most of the listeners who listen to your podcast know that dancers or, or anybody who moves their body, you move from the core of your body. So what was cut open? It was my core. My abdomen was completely sliced open.

[00:20:56] So, so that sent me to the couch and I had to think of what was next. What was I supposed to do? And so that kind of started me on some new things in my art, in some new directions. So, basically from having major, major abdominal surgery, it sort of became clear to me that it was time to start writing my autobiography. So in October, 2019, October 31st, 2019, three years after I started creating my solo dance show, I determined that I was going to set a five-year project to write out my life story. So, I just reached my first year of that anniversary. So I have four more years to go Lord-willing. So I am currently writing my autobiography to be kind of a companion to my solo dance.

[00:22:01]So, I guess that's part of the fruit of getting my abdomen worked on in surgery is that it, it rerouted my sort of plans and my, my focus, as well as, this is funny, Lindsey, but, you know, before COVID, no dance performances were being live-streamed. Online dance performances have always been largely done in public, right? We make our performances in public and if anything, we record it and then afterwards you can watch your recording, right? So, while I was recovering from that surgery, it's kind of like standing in my kitchen, you know, and the idea hit me that I could dance out my life story, and it kind of, similar way I thought, because I'm a mom so I know that I, it's not very feasible for me to travel around like most companies do or like most solo artists do they travel around and they perform their shows. And I knew that's not something I can can do in my situation as, as a parent. And as a parent, I homeschool my children, so I just knew that wasn't feasible.

[00:23:27] So I had to think of, "Well, what can I do? What can I do?" And so I thought, literally, Lindsey, I've been working on this for probably 10 months. If not close to a year, I had been working to make my solo show live through. And I was keeping it a secret. I was keeping it a secret because I thought everybody's going to beat me to the punch. And now I think what I learned is anytime I have an idea, there's just really no reason for me to keep it secret because it's just, it's just silly to keep a great idea to yourself, I suppose. But anyway, so what happened literally overnight? It was March 13th this year, 2020. Overnight, the digital dance world was born, Lindsey, and I saw it happen online. The whole dance community has entirely changed and everybody has shifted to online and online performances. So, so at that point there was no need for me to keep anything secret anymore that I was trying to build a live stream solo show.

[00:24:25] So, so that was, that was kind of just a funny thing. And, the world was sort of ripe for things to go digital because we have these digital devices and it is totally possible to live stream things. And so that's, I think kind of an interesting and neat thing about COVID, but it doesn't replace meeting in public and being able to be together. That's for sure. But to move on from the solo show and from writing the autobiography, the other thing that I actually stumbled into is, last August, 2019, I was preparing for a gig. I was going to be performing at Johnson County Public Library in Kansas City. The event coordinator, his name is Joseph, he saw my solo show at the, at the Kansas City Fringe Festival. And, the library was going to be doing a theme throughout the year regarding mental health. And of course my solo show deals a lot with mental health and so he asked me to come there. So what happened is I was rehearsing for this gig to perform at the Johnson County Public Library, and lo and behold, I ended up in a park on a beautiful sunny day and I recorded myself dancing outside ,Lindsey. And when I got home, I was blown away by what I saw. Because I saw how absolutely gorgeous it was to dance outside in the wind and in the sunshine, and to see these big fluffy white clouds in the sky and to see like soaring hawks in the air as I was dancing.

[00:26:05] And so my jaw just dropped open when I got home and looked at the footage. So I started a new goal. I started a goal that I would dance outside once per month and would capture the footage. And I did that for an entire year So that's what I did. And then I finished that July, 2020. So half of the filming that I did was filmed during the time of COVID actually, which worked out pretty well because I was just dancing in open spaces, So I was just going to public places, and I didn't have to worry about running into people too much or anything like that. And, and so it just worked out quite well. I was able to film all 12 months and I filmed on my humble computer camera because that's the only resource that I had at the time. So computer cameras, as we know, aren't that great with capturing video because it's just this tiny, tiny lens that's letting in light. But what happened, Lindsey, was when I went outside into the natural light, somehow this tiny little lens that light poured through, and it was able to capture my dancing in such an unbelievable way.

[00:27:22] So then I was able to take screenshots from those from the footage of me dancing outside. And I ended up creating three slide shows that run for seven hours each and they have royalty-free music built into them. And so this is my very first product that I'm launching by Inner Reformation. And I just recently launched this. And so it's very new territory for me. And I'm so delighted about it and so excited about it. So those are kind of the things that I'm doing right now. I'm still working on my solo show. I'm writing my autobiography. And then, I'm working on these outdoor slide shows, so I'm kind of all over the place, but that's what I'm doing. Lots of different art projects.

[00:28:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's great. Well, and congratulations on this new project and endeavor. That is so exciting. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your process and, and just everything, you know, that's made art so impactful for you personally, and how it's really made a difference in your life and, and through you, I'm sure to the lives of other people. So you know that, like you said, you're a pretty private person. So being brave and vulnerable is a big deal. And so thank you for doing that because that's going to impact other people's lives for sure. Well, and I do have a couple of questions that I like to ask all of my guests, if you're up for that. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:29:05] Tessa Priem: Yeah, so I had listened to some of your podcasts right before doing this with you. And so I figured that you would probably ask me this question. And knowing that you were going to ask me, you would think that I would have thought how I would answer you. But what it made me think of is that I actually did a presentation that had a lot to do with what is art. And I ended up looking up the various definitions and like, the Oxford dictionary and Miriam Webster. But one thing that really sticks out to me from what I learned just about sort of the definition is, well, first of all, let me back up just a little bit throughout history. This has been debated and continues to be debated. It's such a interesting question because people always have different answers. So I think even the Greek philosophers from long ago, like really examine this question, what is art? So anyway, from the dictionaries, I thought it was so interesting how they really emphasize that the aspect of skill. So developing a skill. And I, I'm not going to go into, you know, your level of that skill or something, but, but you know, whether it be drawing or whether it be dance or whether it be music of some sort, right? So you have this certain skill or craft that you work on and you end up making something in that skill or craft and that what you make expresses something, right. There's some sort. Of purpose behind that making. And then furthermore, beyond that sort of purpose, whatever it might be, that can be so varied.

[00:30:56] It's so varied for each artist, but from that purpose of whatever you've made, usually after that, that work, that creation is often shared with others, usually. Not always, not always, but it's often shared. So those were just some aspects that I thought were really interesting about what is art, you know, it's kind of, it's this skill or craft that people have that people work on and they pour themselves into it and they make whatever it is that they, that they need to create. And often then they share that work. Not always, but, but frequently that's what happens. And then what happens from that is that the audience in some way responds. And so, I guess that's kind of, maybe that's art, it's, it's making something. And then you go on to either just keep it to yourself, which is special, or you go on to, to share that with others to potentially impact others in some kind of way. But it's definitely something that you make to definitely something that you make.

[00:32:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:32:17]Tessa Priem: So I knew you were going to ask that too. When I first heard you ask this question on the first podcast that I listened to, one of my thoughts was honesty. Just honesty, honestly relating whatever it is that you're trying to create. I suppose I've also heard that art shows us what it means to be human. I mean, but that, well, I guess that kind of goes back to your former question. But, I think, for me personally, as an artist, like it's my big goal to be real and honest with people as I possibly can. I don't want to lie or hide because as you mentioned, it is very scary to reveal what you've made. It's very scary to reveal yourself. So in that it does require a good bit of bravery. And so I guess for me, I really just try to work on being real and honest, but I also want to be like lighthearted and silly at times too, because I can be a little bit serious sometimes. So that bringing that joy and fun, and I listened to your podcast, Lindsey, and I know that's what you've wanted to bring to people through your company, like the sense of joy and happiness and people's lives. So.

[00:33:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So inclusive referring to somebody who kind of invites you into the context behind it, whether that's a title or program notes, or a Q&A, versus exclusive where the artists share something, but doesn't put context behind it. So it's completely up to the audience to interpret.

[00:34:17] Tessa Priem: So let me give you a little bit of a backup story. When I was an undergrad learning modern dance, being exclusive was kind of like the go-to the way that we were taught. And so the more vague or abstract your dance piece, the better. And this was just all kind of across the board, like anywhere we traveled to perform or anything like that, just kind of the overall education. And the modern dance community seemed to-- I think the way I felt at least--was that we were entirely discouraged from being at all inclusive. So for example, the stranger your title was, the better. The more confounded you could leave your audience, the better. Well, that really bothered me personally, Lindsey, I just could not connect with that. I just really deeply could not connect with that. And in fact, I ended up hating dance--- I mean, that's why I went on a hiatus. Part of why I went on a hiatus for so long, for almost a decade, it was because I ended up hating dance and dance performance because I didn't like how the audience was sort of treated and it just didn't resonate with me.

[00:35:31] So, so I knew that at the creation of my solo show, that I wanted to make my dance understandable. So, so I, for example, I wanted to, to give in the program, I wanted to give them a description of what they were seeing. You know, not to feed everything to them on a spoon, but I wanted them to at least get a generalization or an idea so that they weren't walking away, scratching their head going, "What in the world just happened?" Because like, you know, you and I were talking before this, this recording, you had said how you experienced a lot of people who had gone to see a show or looked at some sort of art and your experience with people is that they just didn't understand what they were seeing. Well, that was so much my experience in my undergraduate degree. And, and even after undergrad, people would come to my show and they would be like, we just, we don't even know what we saw. And I felt so badly about that. So I knew I wanted to build my solo show completely different from that. Here's part of the beauty though, Lindsey, that in that almost nine years of a hiatus, or almost a decade of hiatus, when I came back, guess what's happening in dance right now that I just was blown away to see? Stories are being told in modern dance. So I just, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that they were even telling actual stories for people to understand. And so I think there has been a great shift in dance performance.

[00:37:05] So what I guess then to wrap up this answer is I guess what it's led me to believe is that both are good. Yes. If you can at least let your audience know, for example, "We're we're trying to be more abstract here." I think it's my biggest concern is when you just don't let the audience know anything, right? So if you, if there's a really abstract piece, if at least they could know, okay, it's abstract and they could kind of like let down their guard and say, "Okay, this is abstract. I don't have to work at getting it so much." Right? Or something, but I, I do think it's good maybe to have kind of both inclusive, exclusive too, to a degree. That way you continue to have variety, because otherwise we might all just kind of start making the same kind of art. And I think it's really important to have great diversity in art, but at the same time, I really hope that we can be very compassionate to our audience because I mean, we are building things to share with them, ultimately, I think, and I've always heard from the dance community, this great passion for, we want to get our work to a larger audience. I mean, I've always heard that in my time and being in modern dance, they always want to reach more people. And I think a way to do that is just to always be very thoughtful to the patrons. I guess kind of both, but if it is exclusive, I would hope that there is still some thought about how it may impact the audience.

[00:38:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Those were very thoughtful answers. I really appreciate that. So if people want to get in touch with you or kind of follow your journey, mayb connect with you, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:39:12] Tessa Priem: Yes. So I am on various social media platforms. I'm on Facebook, I'm on YouTube, I'm on Instagram and all of my names are the same. You can find me a@innerreformation. So you spell inner the word inner, and then you spell the word reformation. If you type in my name, Tessa Priem, you could probably find me too. And in fact, if you Googled my name, Tessa Priem, you would find my website immediately and see photos of me. But I would love for people to join me on the journey. In fact, that's kind of my phrase that I say, enjoy the journey. So I would, I would love for people to come with me. And, cause I, I've got a lot that I hope to share. I have so much in me that I desire to share. And these outdoor slideshows, for example, are something that I would love to get in people's homes and in businesses and institutions to share on TV screens or any type of digital screen that we have. So, yeah, you can find me @innerreformation, and I am pretty easy to approach. I love interacting with people so that you can certainly find me online.

[00:40:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you so much. Well, and thank you again for joining us, Tessa, and for all of the insights that you've provided, and thank you for sharing your story and your message with the world through your dancing. I know that, like I said earlier, that makes a difference in people's lives. So I definitely want to say thank you. And, and thank you so much to all of you who have listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:41:09] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much, and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Maggie Rader! Maggie is an AEA actor and Dramatists Guild playwright based in Cincinnati, Ohio. She shares some funny and touching stories about growing up and starting her career in children's theater. Maggie brings a unique perspective to the question of whether art should be inclusive or exclusive, and why context matters.

Get in touch with Maggie Rader: www.maggielourader.com Watch "Drunk Santa Christmas Spectacular" online: https://www.cincyshakes.com/event/drunk-santa/ Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 30 - Maggie Rader

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Maggie Lou Rader.

[00:00:43] Maggie Rader: Hello!

[00:00:44] Lindsey Dinneen: She is an-- hi!! She is an AEA actor and Dramatists Guild playwright based in Cincinnati, Ohio. And so thank you so much Maggie for being here!

[00:00:58] Maggie Rader: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to another person!

[00:01:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? Yes. And I would love if you would share with our audience just a little bit about maybe who you are and your background and whatever you want to share.

[00:01:15] Maggie Rader: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up in Southwest Oklahoma in a really, really teensy town, got out and moved to the big city of Kansas City, Missouri. And, got a four year graduate degree. I may as well have been living in Manhattan. I thought it was the most cosmopolitan. It's like, oh my God, there's a Starbucks on every corner. And, I was lucky enough while I was there to study at Oxford University and go overseas, and then for grad school, I actually went back to England and studied at the Birmingham School of Acting in the UK and came back to the States, toured around for a little while doing children's theater, which is the best acting experience I've ever had because third graders are the most honest audience of all time.

[00:02:00] And then I've been in Cincinnati for 10 years. This is my--it's my 10th season as a resident actor at the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company. But I'm also lucky enough to perform at other area theaters in Dayton and Louisville. I'm living here in Cincinnati with my husband and three fur babies with four eyes between them. And we're both lucky enough to make our living performing on stage most of the time, not right now, but in our normal lives, that's what we do.

[00:02:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. I think everyone's idea of normal has shifted a bit lately. Awesome. Okay. So something peeked my interest--well, everything--you're obviously super accomplished, but something tweaked my interest immediately. And you were talking about children's theater and I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing some of the differences between performing for kiddos versus performing for adults.

[00:02:55] Maggie Rader: Oh, sure. It's the highs and the lows are just so much higher and lower. Like I have performed, what I did is I toured around with Kentucky Shakespeare for an entire year. I did about 500 performances of this two-person "Taming of the Shrew," that was all about manners and, you know, doing "Taming of the Shrew" for kids--doing "Taming of the Shrew" anyway, is a bit problematic. And if you don't address the problematic nature and why it's still important to do the play cause misogynists and misogyny still exists today, so why do we pretend like it doesn't? And these kids would always, they actually asked the most insightful questions. Like "Why was Kate so mean?" It's like, "Well, why do you think she was so mean?" And like, "Well, her dad, wasn't very nice to her." And it's like, yeah, a lot of adults don't pick up on that. It's like, "Yeah, I'd be mad too if my dad treated me the way he does and my sister was treating me the way that she does." And, but they are just the most honest audience. Ever. And that includes if you were being funny or not. And, more than once we did have kids leave the gym or wherever we were performing and there was, there were puddles on the floor cause they were laughing too hard. And it's just the cutest thing. It's like, "I'm so sorry you pee your pants," but what a great compliment, I guess.

[00:04:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh indeed.

[00:04:21] Maggie Rader: So it's, I, I encourage all my students when I'm teaching people coming out of college, do one year of performing for kids. You are going to learn more about your craft and yourself, and you're going to get more performances under your belt. Then if you perform in a live fancy theater for adults, which is really fun and really great, but I would not be half of the actor I am today if I hadn't done children's theater at first.

[00:04:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. It's so fun to perform for kids. I think I love what you said that they're the most honest audience. I mean, they really are. I remember performing back a few years ago, we used to do a show and two out of the four or five shows that we did were for kids specifically. And it was always so fun because they would laugh and they would comment and they would cheer and they were so involved, versus the adults sort of just sit there. And it's awkward, cause sometimes when things are intended to be funny, you don't get any response and you're kind of like, "Well, that was fun."

[00:05:29]Maggie Rader: It's true. You know, even as we perform now, you know, in the big fancy theater for adults, especially doing Shakespeare, we still do a lot of educational matinees for students. And depending on what show we're doing, depends, you know, we did a "Midsummer Night's Dream" a few years ago, so we did have a lot of younger students come to see it. And my favorite thing about doing Shakespeare for kids versus adults is there so much direct address, and you know, when Shakespeare was being written, they intended for the actors to go talk to the audience and that they're probably going to respond to you because there was no concept of the fourth wall until after Shakespeare's death. And so when you perform for kids and you go ask them to be, or not to be, and when they, they respond, obviously to be, that'd be stupid, Hamlet. And when they actually respond to you, and the adults don't because, you know, there's this stigma of Shakespeare. And I must sit and listen and let the poetry wash over me and kids are actually involved. It's like, you know, when Puck comes out on stage and the kids tell Puck where everyone is. Like, oh, it's, it's delightful.

[00:06:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yes. So I'm sure this is going to be one of those terribly difficult questions to answer, but is there a play that stands out to you as being your favorite, either to perform or to watch? I know. You can pick a couple.

[00:07:01] Maggie Rader: What a good, good, good question. One of my, I think my dream role of dream roles was to play Maggie the Cat in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof." And, I got to do it--oh, in 2017, I think-- it was a few years ago and it was just so much fun. You know, we worked with a really great director called Michael Haney who works in Missouri a lot, as well, but, oh my gosh, when that play is done well, and it moves and it's quick. You know, the audience came every night expecting, you know, the Elizabeth Taylor movie, which, oh my gosh, the script is awful. Like they just absolutely decimate the story and they take the onus away from Maggie at the end and they make it Brick's choice to go upstairs and, and they just completely changed the ending of the play.

[00:07:54] And so it's fun to do plays like that, where the audience thinks they, they think that they know the story. Like "Romeo and Juliet." Everyone thinks that they know "Romeo and Juliet," but when you start making sex jokes and the audience is completely taken off guard, it's like, well, it's the dirtiest play in the cannon. There's a lot of sex jokes, but it's really fun to do those plays that the audience, especially our smart adult audiences think they know, but they don't. And so I think "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" was, it was a really special one for me and it was, it, you know, it's always nice when other people appreciate. And it's, it was nice to hear that the staff at the theater, still a lot of them think it's their favorite show that we've done in our new space. And, that always does my heart good. However, if I'm going to go watch a play, I want to watch August Wilson's "Fences" every day of the week. It is one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry and life I've ever seen. August Wilson's "Fences," maybe one of my favorite plays of all time. I never going to be in it, but there is not a role for me in it, but by golly, I love watching it.

[00:09:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. So I'm curious, have you always been very brave, so to speak, and bold, or did you ever deal with stage fright or how did that all evolve?

[00:09:26] Maggie Rader: You know, I think I'm just one of those dumb, lucky people that it's never occurred to me to not just be loud and say what I think. And I, I'm sure-- I know you know my father and I'm sure that when I, the very first time I ever performed was in kindergarten. And you know, my father will also tell you, I have about as much patience as he does, and they were all auditioning us for our, we were doing this Valentine's Day variety show, as you do in kindergarten. And I wanted to do the Valentine's dance with the beautiful Craig Johnson. Oh, my gosh. What if Craig Johnson listens to this? Craig, I had such a crush on you in kindergarten! And I just wanted to do the Valentine's dance with Craig Johnson and they were auditioning kids for the "12 Days of Valentines." Like the "12 Days of Christmas." And the first day of Valentine's was "a fox in a fur coat." And if you count the syllables, there's not enough syllables. So it had to be "and a fox in a fur coat" at the end, and it makes no sense. And all these kids were tripping over it and couldn't get it right. And they're parading all these kids up trying to say, "and a fox in a fur coat." And I was getting so frustrated that they. I finally just slapped the table, stood up and said, "Guys, how hard is it to say "and a fox in a fur coat." And I sat back down, and stupid me, got the part when I didn't even want it. And I didn't get to do the Valentine's Day dance with Craig Johnson.

[00:11:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, but it launched your acting career. That is a fantastic story. Oh, my word, I love that. So then did you ever get to have a dancing role or was that like, "I really wanted it then and didn't need it later on."

[00:11:26] Maggie Rader: You know? No, I've done two musicals in my entire life. One of them was in college. I had to do "Pippin." I had to do "Pippin." It was my senior year. It was the first musical they'd done in a really long time. And I didn't go and audition because I can't sing or dance. And the head of the department called me into his office and he said, "Maggie, I noticed that you didn't audition for 'Pippin.'" Oh yeah, "No, not at all." And he said, "Maggie, you're going to be in 'Pippin.'" It's like, "I don't want to be in "Pippin." I will fail at "Pippin." And I would rather not be in 'Pippin.'" And he said, "Suck it up, deal with it. You're in 'Pippin.'" And so I had to be a player in "Pippin" and I still don't like that musical. I think it's weird. Like, it's not even just weird. I just don't think it's very good. And maybe I'm... might be treason when it comes to musical theater, but I don't like "Pippin." I don't like the music. I just don't like it and..

[00:12:25] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fine!

[00:12:26] Maggie Rader: And I have bronchitis the whole show, so I couldn't even sing. So I was lip-synching the whole thing. And then some fool cast me--I was very blonde in college--some fool cast me in "Sugar." And "Sugar," the musical, which is the musical version of "Some Like It Hot" and it's not a very good musical. It didn't run on Broadway for very long, but I had to play Sugar Shell in "Sugar," the musical, and the sweet music director stayed after and coached me through the songs. Cause I don't have a very good ear for music, and luckily I didn't have to dance that much in it either. But I do, because of Shakespeare, we tend to do bergamasques at the end of the shows, which, well, the end of the comedies. In Shakespeare's day, every play, whether it was comedy, tragedy, or history, they did a bergamasque, a dance at the end of the show. So, you know, it's the smothered Desdemona gets up from the bed and does the bergamasque dance at the end of "Othello." But so I've had to do lots of dancing in Shakespeare, but luckily I'm doing it with a bunch of other Shakespearian actors and I move better than most of them, which gives me hope.

[00:13:35]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, there you go.

[00:13:38] Maggie Rader: So I had to do it, whether I liked it or not.

[00:13:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair enough. Okay. So what was the moment or maybe series of moments that led you to realize, "this is my calling?"

[00:13:51] Maggie Rader: You know, I think like many artists, who, who live in cities-- you know, the arts gave me an outlet in high school. High school wasn't fun. Was high school fun for anybody? If it was, I don't think I'd trust them.

[00:14:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I don't either.

[00:14:08] Maggie Rader: Yeah. And it, it gave me something to do when I was living in a really small rural town and didn't have a ton of friends and, but I quickly found out, I like this. I'm good at this. This is fun. And I auditioned in college. I was going to be a radio production major in college, but then they ended up selling the the radio station and the entire program. So I was like, "Well, do I switch schools? Do I, what do I do?" And luckily I had a really lovely head of the department--who made me do "Pippin" later, but I'll forgive him-- but he said, "You know, I think you could do this if you wanted to." And it just never really occurred to me that I could be a professional stage actor. I thought, "Oh yeah, I can do radio. I can, you know, do news broadcasting." And there are avenues that I can do that are still performance, but it's probably a more responsible career choice. So I was really looking at a journalism and things like that. Oh, well, cause it's, this is what I love to do, so I guess I'll try it, and I kind of made that decision in college, and yeah, it's been going great ever since. Lucky me. But yeah, until COVID hit. I've been working since I got out of school and so has my husband. So.

[00:15:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. That's absolutely fantastic. Well, are there any moments sort of along the way of your, your life, your journey, that really stand out as an encounter with art to kind of tuck away and remember?

[00:15:39] Maggie Rader: Yeah, totally. You know, I-- and I know I said that I did a lot of children's theater, but I do also do a lot of teaching too-- and actually when I was on that children's tour, for the Kentucky Shakespeare, right out of grad school, I was out in Eastern Kentucky. So we were staying in Hazard, because it was the biggest town. And then we were going to all these rural schools in the mountains. So we were out there for an entire week, and working, and going to every single children or, elementary school in the county. And so I was in a classroom and I was doing a workshop where the kids each had to do, they had to be one of the witches in Scottish play. And we were just talking about what it means to be a witch, or it's like, "Okay, well, this play's been done for 400 years. So how can we put our own spin on it and make it our own Scottish play?" Because all Shakespeare really wants is that these witches are not human, so if we're producing our own Scottish play, what would we want our witches to look like and sound and move? And so I gave out the, you know, "When shall we three meet again?" scene, and broke the kids into groups of three.

[00:16:47] And I just saw this one kid who was just shut down from the very, very, very beginning. And I went over to him and I said, "Hey, do you need some help?" And the teacher just talked to the entire classroom and she said, "Oh, he don't read." I kind of stopped. And I said, Hhe don't read well, or at all?" And she said, "Oh no, he don't read at all." It's like, okay. And so I pulled him aside and I said, "Hey, if I, if I read it to you, can you remember it?" And he's like, "Oh yeah!" And it just broke my heart that it felt like this kid had been given up on by his class and his teacher. And it's like, this kid is smart. He needs to read in a different way.

[00:17:33] And he hasn't been helped. But if a kid can memorize an entire scene of Shakespeare, if I read it to him first, that kid's smart. And he did! I read it out loud and he remembered every line he had and it just--you know, and when I was growing up, the only arts experience we had in high school was Miss Oklahoma coming and talking to us about following your dreams or something. I don't know. And that was our arts exposure in high school. And I thought, "God, if we can find a way to connect to these rural kids, so that they know that the arts is an avenue, or even a way to channel what you're going through. You know, you don't have to do it as a career, but if it helps you learn, if it helps you learn how to read, what a way to not give up on those kids who learn differently."

[00:18:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Wow, what a story! I, it's amazing to me. I mean, I would think very few adults would be able to hear a monologue or whatever one time and be able to quote it. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah. I mean, I don't think most of us could ever do that. Yeah. Ah, so I hope, yeah, that's, that's a really amazing moment. And I, I can only imagine that that definitely made an impression on him, and just realizing that there are alternate ways of learning or expressing or whatever, and that's a big deal.

[00:19:09] Maggie Rader: I think, cause that was 12 years ago, you know, the kid is, it's an adult now. And I, I still think about him a lot. I hope he's doing well.

[00:19:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing that story. That's really impactful. So I'm curious, I know that like so many artists, lately you've sort of had to just, you know, switch gears a little bit, be a little more creative in your approach to continuing to do your art. And I, I know that you have something coming up. So do you mind sharing a little bit about, you know, maybe like what's happened, how you kind of transitioned during this time and sort of what's what's coming up for you?

[00:19:50] Maggie Rader: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's been tough. I was running a really wonderful play called "Alabaster" by a good friend and playwright named Audrey Cefaly. And I was running that in March and we ended up having to close the last week of the show. And it was tough, but luckily I've been able to dive more into my writing, which has been fabulous. And it's not really, I've been writing a lot faster during COVID because I'm not having to memorize lines and go do shows at night. So I've actually been able to, I finished a full length called "The Helpers," which follows the story of Miep Gies, who helped the Frank family high during World War II. And it was supposed to have a workshop at DePaul University last May, and because of COVID, it was all virtual, which meant I didn't have to go up to Chicago once a week, which was probably helpful.

[00:20:39]But that play has been finished. And, the reading of, of it is online and able to view on my website. I've also written a play called "The Wonder," start to finish, which is a full length, since COVID hit. And it's about the true story, so they say, of the first documented spiritual possession in the United States, which took place in Watseka, Illinois. So I keep calling it an American Midwestern ghost story for mothers and daughters, and it's very sweet. But it it's about healing and connection. So I'm sure there's a reason why that's the story that kind of came to fruition during COVID. But it is a story about family and connection and deep, deep, deep healing. But it's lovely. It's just a little five hander that's about an hour and a half long and, we did a reading of it via Zoom, and that's also available on my website too. But then as an actor, it's been really great to see the theater companies, you know, trying to produce and create during this time and keeping their audience bases engaged.

[00:21:43]So normally right now, my husband and I would both be in rehearsals for the Christmas show at the Cincinnati Shakespeare Company called, "Every Christmas Story Ever Told," which is kind of a mashup of everyone's favorite holiday movies and books and things like that. It's very fun and silly. But since we can't do it this year instead, they got the four of us, the actors who would have done the show, together. And we did a lot of writing. So we kind of had a, you know, SNL style or writing session for a week. And then we recorded what we're calling "Drunk Santa's Holiday Spectacular." It's, it's very fun. It's silly. The four of us come over to Santa's apartment in the North Pole. And, you know, she's just not feeling up to delivering presents this year. And so we try to see what's on television to kind of get her spirits up and it's-- so I, we have, it's like we wrote our own Hallmark movie and a 92nd Hallmark movie, a sketch about the proud bucks that are trying to kidnap Rudolph because he's forcing them to wear masks.

[00:22:58] And, what else? I wrote something else for it, and I can't even think of it. What else did we even do? It, like I filmed it two weeks ago. And these days in COVID the days are, the days are long and the weeks are short. So the Great British Baking Show. That's what I wrote. Right. So as, as hosts are coming and going so fast that, oh, who's the Hell's Kitchen guy, Gordon Ramsey. Gordon Ramsey is one of the new hosts on the Great British Baking Show and it's delightful and fun and silly. And, so we're just trying to mash up topical things from 2020, but also fun holiday traditions. And it's going to be about an hour long and it premieres, I think, December 4th is when, and you can get a DVD of it. You can stream it and watch it online, whatever's easiest for you, but it's, it's gonna be a lot of fun and hopefully a lot of laughs.

[00:24:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I just, as soon as you said the title, I was like, "Oh, I'm in. Definitely. Oh, how fun!"

[00:24:08] Maggie Rader: It all started--the company used to do that show on a stage at a local bar called Arnold's, which is a lovely, it's the oldest, one of the two oldest operating bars in the United States. Like they still operated during prohibition, and so the show started on this itty bitty courtyard stage, and they needed kind of a stage manager. So they dressed up this wonderful Australian actress in town, and she was Drunk Santa, who was also pretending to be Drunk Santa, also pretty much being the stage manager and running sound cues and things like that. But now that the show is on our big stage and has-- I've been going now for 15 years--it's like, well, now Drunk Santa is just kind of a part of it. And since we were writing our own thing, it's finally time for it to be Drunk Santa show.

[00:24:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. I can't wait to watch this. I'm very excited. Well, awesome. I have a couple of questions that I love to ask my guests, if you're okay with that. Awesome. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:15] Maggie Rader: Oh, what a good question. How do I define art or what is art to me? I think just expression. Yeah, expression. My mom is a wonderful visual artist and, I growing up, I wanted to be an artist because that's what my mom was. And when I realized I didn't have a lot of visual art skills, I was so sad that I was like, you can't be an artist. Like my mom and I, when I was wanting to do plays and things, I said, "Mom, does that still make you an artist?" She's like, "Well, yeah, of course it does." It's like, "Oh, thank God. I can still be an artist like my mom." And yeah, I think it's just expression, whatever it is to you. Because what is the opposite of art? Like stagnation? Yeah, I guess I just say expression.

[00:25:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay. I love it. Well. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:06] Maggie Rader: Oh, to connect, I'd say. You know, we were joking before we started rehearsing. It's like, "Oh, why does live theater still exist when movies are around?" And if you mess up, you can just start over and you only have to do it once then. But that's why live theater is still around. It's so much about connection. And I feel like out of all the, and maybe that's why I love the stage. It's, I feel like when you're doing live theater, you get to connect so much more than in other artistic mediums that I love, and enjoy, but it's not my particular passion. So yeah, I think the most important role is, or thing you can do, is to connect.

[00:26:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And exclusive referring to somebody who puts their art out into the world and doesn't provide a whole lot of context behind it, so it's really up to the audience to kind of determine what they will. Versus inclusive referring to an artist who does share some context, whether that's a title or program notes or Q&A or anything like that.

[00:27:22]Maggie Rader: What a good question. I, I don't know if I think that they're both completely separate things, I guess. And what a great discussion to have, you know, it's, as we talk about artists' work and, you know, enjoying Michael Jackson's body of work, even though he may have been a child predator. And I, I say may have been because he was never found guilty and, or, you know, R Kelly, can you enjoy people's work while knowing possibly the background of what was happening in their lives when they created it? And it's just such a good conversation to always be having. And also as artists, what a responsibility we have, you know. It's, my husband and I were having a long talk about politicians. We had our third member of city council in Cincinnati that was arrested this week for bribery charges. And we just talked about how, what a responsibility it is when you do go into the life of, of politics. Was Bill Clinton's impact on our society lessened because of what he did in his personal life? That you go into some professions and you have a greater responsibility that's bigger than yourself.

[00:28:45] And I feel like art is part of that. And because yes, I think, to use "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof," as an example, Maggie the Cat was based on a woman called Maria St. Just who was half Russian, half English, and just this force of a woman. And, you know, she was engaged to this dude who was very rich, a Prince of something or other. And, she went out and bought him a tie for every day of the week. Two for Sundays. And he was so embarrassed that she'd done that, that she'd spent all this money for ties and he said, "Well, what are you going to do with my money when we get married?" She said, "Oh, do you have some? Well, then I'll probably spend it." And he left her and they never got married. And she was like, "Well, that was, that's not fair. I was just honest with him."

[00:29:40] But there's this really great memoir of, like, I guess it's the letters that Tennessee Williams and Maria St. Just wrote back and forth when she was, you know, just starting out as an actor and, Tennessee Williams was a nobody writer and they met at a party and just had a wonderful friendship for the rest of his life until he died. And reading these letters back and forth, to me who was playing Maggie, it made that role so much deeper. And, you know, I've never seen Maggie as the villain of that story and even more so after I, I read the book, but if you wanted, it's fabulous, it's called "Five O'Clock Angel" and it's a wonderful book, but that play means so much more to me knowing whom Maria St. Just was. So, I guess I'd have to thank you for listening to me yammer on while I worked that out for myself.

[00:30:33] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it.

[00:30:34] Maggie Rader: Because at the risk of, of course, I guess it has to be inclusive because, I do have guilt when I enjoy Michael Jackson's art and that's for me-- you know, I, I will never judge someone else's line when it comes to that, I guess, but for me, I, his work is tainted now for me. R Kelly, like I can't watch "Space Jam" the same way, and that's probably a really small price to pay because you know, it's "Space Jam." But yeah, it's tainted for me, knowing the kinds of things that man has done, and which is why, you know, Tennessee Williams is one of my favorite playwrights because, I respect, you know, what he did for his sister and his mother. So when I read "Glass Menagerie," I can't divorce what he did for his, for his sister who was lobotimzed. When I read "Glass Menagerie," it brings so much more depth to that story for me. So, yeah, I guess inclusive. It should be inclusive decidedly.

[00:31:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. I actually really appreciate your working it out because it was-- I think that you bring actually a really good, unique perspective to this. And I, nobody has talked about it quite in those terms of how much the context matters to how you can personally enjoy it. And I really actually think that that's a really good point to make because that it does make a difference and, you know, to kind of dismiss that isn't particularly fair.

[00:32:11] Maggie Rader: You know, be Banksy and keep her anonymity. And I guess that is valid as well, but also the anonymity of it is its own persona on it, of itself. So you still can't enforce it, can you?

[00:32:24]Lindsey Dinneen: In, indeed

[00:32:26] Maggie Rader: Oh, my brain just exploded.

[00:32:29] Lindsey Dinneen: There we go. Well, you never know what a conversation about art will do. Awesome. Okay. Well, so first of all, thank you so much, Maggie, for joining us today. I really, really appreciate it. Love your stories. You've got some absolutely fantastic ones. Yeah. And I was just wondering if any of us want to kind of get in touch with you or follow your work, especially watch your upcoming film, is there a way that we can do that?

[00:32:58] Maggie Rader: Absolutely. I try to keep my personal website up-to-date all the time. So if you go to, it's just my whole name, maggielourader.com. And my last name is spelled R A D E R, and on my home page, there is a link to Cincy Shakes' site where, 1) you can watch the trailer of the "Drunk Santa Holiday Spectacular," which is fun and delightful all on its own, and you can also purchase a DVD. You can purchase the streaming rights that'll be available on December 4th, but you can get your tickets now. And you can also go to my playwriting page. And if you want to see the Zoom readings of either "The Helpers" or "The Wonder," they're all up there. And you can absolutely contact me through my website or just sending an email, which is just my first and last name, Maggie Rader, R A D E R@live, L I V E.com. Or you can just do the Contact Me page on my website and it'll send me an email directly. So either one works.

[00:34:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, thank you. And I just want to say, you know, on behalf of myself and our listeners and all the people that you touch through your art, thank you for being a brave, bold person who stands up for when you know, the fox is in the fur or whatever, and you need to demonstrate that! But seriously, thank you so much for sharing your art with the world and for sharing it with kids that you teach and with adults that you have conversations with. I think that makes such a difference in people's lives. And, I just appreciate that that's what you've chosen to do with your life. So thank you.

[00:34:47] Maggie Rader: Thank you. Thank you so much for this. This is, I hope it's been fun for all, cause this has been just delightful to sit and chat with you.

[00:34:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, it has been delightful and I'm, I'm sure our readers feel the, or listeners--here we go--feel the same. I mean, you can read the transcript so it could be readers too. Well, thank you so much again, Maggie, and thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:35:24] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:35:33]Hey Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told for listening to the episodes and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves, to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast even very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I have set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors, so everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

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In this episode, I welcome Anh Le! Anh is a student filmmaker in the Bay Area, currently working on producing a feature film addressing a story about Vietnamese culture and PTSD. She shares about her filmmaking journey, her advice for artists, and how to accomplish your biggest artistic goals! (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is artwork for Anh's new film, "Flaws of an Everlasting Memory.")

Get in touch with Anh Le: https://anhimated.wixsite.com/portfolio Holly Jolly Fundraiser for FOAEM: https://tinyurl.com/foaemhjc2020 Flaws of an Everlasting Memory Website: https://www.foaem.com/ Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 29 - Anh Le

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:08] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Anh Le. She is a student filmmaker from the Bay Area who is working on a feature film that touches on Vietnamese culture and how people cope with PTSD. So she is actively working on projects that use art to change culture and opinions and everything that I just love that art can do. So I am so excited to have you today and to be able to share art with you. So thank you so much for being here, Ahn.

[00:01:16] Anh Le: Thank you very much, Lindsey, for having me here. I am so excited to share you about my endeavors for film and also to help filmmakers around here in the Bay Area and across the United States.

[00:01:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, I would love if you would share a little bit about your story, maybe some of your background, how you got into filmmaking, all those great things.

[00:01:39] Anh Le: Sure. I got to film probably much longer than I would have thought of, but I didn't realize it until I went out to college. In the past, I had worked with poetry, graphic design and prose, short stories, but haven't gotten in touch into film quite yet. I still remember back in 2012, when I was watching the Academy Awards for the first time. And there was the 50th anniversary of "The Sound of Music," one of my most favorite films of all time. I really want to get up there someday. And after getting into the film classes, I have a much more profound appreciation of the independent films that my professors have taught me. And from here, I don't think it matters whether I go to Hollywood or not, but I really want to utilize film to heal the wounds of society.

[00:02:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think that's really amazing. And you know, at the very beginning we had briefly talked about, even before we got on that, you're actually working on a feature film right now. Can you tell us more about? Oh my goodness. What a cool opportunity that is just how that kind of all came about.

[00:02:53] Anh Le: Yeah, sure. Last semester I was in a screenwriting class and there was this story that I wanted to do as a short film, but after developing the story much further, I realized this has to be a feature film I need to make sometime while using the Vietnamese language. Because I was introduced to some films, like “Co Ba Saigon” and “Em Chua 18,” which are pretty great films and hilarious ones as well, but also has a really deep touch into there. With these films, I incorporate a lot of the French classic cinema style in here as well as some films like, "Her" and "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" to really great romance films and created "Flaws of an Everlasting Memory."

[00:03:40] This follows a story of a lonely uptime lexicographer who struggles to find love in Saigon while grappling with untimely death of his first love. A lexicographer is someone who studies about the language that they're given and they also see how it evolves and how it can be incorporated into the dictionary. I thought it was fascinating because when I took Vietnamese classes at a younger age, I thought that I would be adequate enough to understand what people are saying and I'm writing about. But when I went over to Vietnam, there seems to be a huge change in how people use slang and also interact with each other. So I want to utilize that evolution for this film and also twist this romance with a little bit of mental health to show that sometimes we don't need to find the perfect person for companionship. Sometimes companionship can be found just within five steps of each other, such as your best friend, or maybe your coworker. Or someone that, that you've been in a long time getting in touch with.

[00:04:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's incredible. And what a cool story to have gone from potentially this short story to fully kind of evolved. So are you still in the writing process or are you more already into the production process and all of that?

[00:05:12]Anh Le: In this film, I actually just recently finished translating the script. Of course, there will be minor changes along the way. I have selected actors that are suitable for the roles I'm looking for. And I also have to identify maybe there's a certain way they say something that I might change it, or maybe the works that I've provided for them, it's a bit stilted. And it's not comfortable with them. So I might change that too. But for the most part, the story structure has been solid at the moment. My team and I are focusing on a Holly Jolly Fundraiser. Now this is one of the more expensive films we're working on, although in the industry, they consider this as, I believe a medium, moderate, low budget. It's in the $325,000 range. And it's crazy. This is a low, a low budget, but we're doing our best to reach out to potential donors. And we've been fiscally sponsored by a wonderful nonprofit called From the Heart Productions who focuses on supporting indie filmmakers like us, that intend to make an impact in society.

[00:06:27]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, and so that's probably a new area, even for you to explore perhaps with the fundraising aspect, but how has COVID and all the precautions and all the things that you need to take, how has that affected your process?

[00:06:45] Anh Le: Originally, I was intending to switch to a different profession, which is web design or communications, because it was something that was, that seemed more stable compared to some of the art related careers. A lot of the film industry has shut down and right now they're slowly trying to get back up as more people are trying to get the content out there. But I was fortunate enough to have met a colleague who I met at my college, and she's also the family advisory board at my university. She helps me a lot and understanding about the pursuit of dreams. And she's, she's really the one who got me back in check. I consider her as a fairy godmother to me. And from there I've been utilizing my knowledge to help all filmmakers. Whenever I network with them, I also shared my knowledge on how to network with people, how to get fundraising for donors. And also some photography tips, because I also love to do photography as a hobby, especially modeling photography.

[00:07:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Excellent. And so do you have any kind of timeline in mind or is it still sort of in process and we'll see how it goes?

[00:08:08] Anh Le: Our goal is to do the music recording at Skywalker Sound. So this studio has been known for doing sound mixing and also music producing for, for example, "The Last Black Man in San Francisco," some Pixar films, and even some Star Wars films. I have a very talented music producer named Logan Gammill, who I met at West Valley College. I was introduced by a friend and he's been helping me a lot with the original score. And composing the original song ever since. So this victory, and I want, I want him to achieve his full recording there as well. When it comes to the production itself, we intend to do it in July . Of course, this may change or hinder depending of the conditions of COVID-19, but we hope to get all the cast and crew here in the Bay Area to bring this film to life.

[00:09:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is so cool. This must be such an amazing dream come true. I can only imagine how excited you must feel, but it's, it's massive. So on a day-to-day basis, how are you prioritizing tasks and things like that? I mean, this is, it's a fantastic undertaking, but at times I would imagine it would feel a little maybe daunting.

[00:09:32] Anh Le: Yes, it is, it is kind of shocking. I have a few colleagues that told me, like, why are you doing a feature film? Like, you know, you could have, you could've done a short film instead, and this is the craziest thing. And I look at myself and I was like, yeah, this is crazy. Why did I, why did I move on with this? You could have stopped me. But, so I, I am very fortunate to have producers who work with me a lot whom are students attending schools in the Bay Area. And I'm, unto myself and attending school while getting involved in clubs. There's a lot of time management here, but with what I've done at my college, I think I can handle this workload so far. And I wouldn'd have been able to focus a lot with the artistic side without my friends' support.

[00:10:19] So I have some people who are involved in, for example, business administration, psychology. And these, there are some students who are not filmmakers, but the quality of their work has convinced me to have them involve my team. They're great colleagues that I've worked with so far, and they have done some outstanding work such as the website, the fundraising plan. And we have also reached out to grants and full festival opportunities across some of the world.

[00:10:50] Lindsey Dinneen: That is really cool. And so out of curiosity, do you plan to film mostly in the Bay Area or does the film, will you end up being filmed a few other places or how's that all gonna work out?

[00:11:06] Anh Le: For the majority part, yes, we will be filming in the Bay Area. We will be utilizing some spaces in San Francisco. I haven't contacted this place yet, but there's a beautiful library at UC Berkeley. I've been seeing some pictures. And this is where my inspiration comes to mind for a particular library scene in my film, and also utilizing San Jose and some nearby locations as well. Even though my film takes place in Saigon, due to the financial limitations, it may not be achievable, but I believe I can try to accommodate the look with what the Bay Area can offer. I mean, for example, I, I actually learned from the movie "Her," although the story seems to take place in Southern California, they also had shot their scenes in Shanghai and I didn't realize it. And it was incredible what they can do with the visual manipulation and creativity.

[00:12:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when you're dedicated and willing to be creative and to creatively solve things, then of course the world is so much more open to you. So that's, that's really cool to hear. I commend you. So I'm, I'm curious, obviously you have a lot of passion for the film and for the story, what sort of settled you on this particular storyline, especially perhaps if you're willing to speak to the mental health aspect of it, which is so important to talk about. But what kind of led you to realize, or whatever that this was something that really needed, a story that really needed to be told?

[00:12:50]Anh Le: I was actually first inspired by a short film I worked on called “Sarah King” with Colby Cao, and in this story, it tells us about a sister who was struggling to mourn over her older sister's loss. My taking in bad things like, like drugs, and from there, I felt that PTSD, I had watched some films and heard different stories about PTSD and they come in different levels and different experiences. So I want to test out and see what I can do in the shadow of romance, because there must have been people who have experienced trauma of losing a loved one in the past. And I want to understand how people cope with it. There are a lot of families and communities right now who don't understand too much about mental health and they, they might've think of this as something that can easily be gone away, like you'll have some medication or you'll heal in time, but what the people who might contact and learn about there are some mental health, like PTSD that lingers for a much longer time. And I want to bring out for that in the spotlight. So that way people can understand, "Oh, this is how some people may experience it." And of course, while this, this movie is a fictional story, everyone experiences mental health in different levels in different ways. And in order to help them out, we also need to understand their story, their background. And from there we are, we'll be able to utilize our strengths and our community connections in order to support them rather than saying, "Oh, this, this is something that can be easily bored away with time."

[00:14:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. So I'm curious, we kind of learned how you got into filmmaking, but I'm curious--since obviously you're interested in the arts in general-- how did you come to the conclusion that filmmaking was the best way to tell this story? I'm sure that it is, but I'm just curious since there are in theory, other ways to share this story, have you ever considered other paths, or is filmmaking like--well, it, it needs to be told this way for this reason?

[00:15:24] Anh Le: I have done poetry, short story writing. Those have never been published before. I mostly, most likely did it with my school assignments and also for the scholarship opportunities. And as a hobby, I felt that what's filmmaking--a lot of people would be able to have much wider access when it comes to the visual representation, because I do have some symbolism in mine that connects more or less with the Vietnamese culture that may not be obtained with a book, or written material in general. I feel that by utilizing film, not only are we able to engage a lot with the language and the overall look, but also with sound, because sound I recall from my classes is 50% of your fill or actually even more. And without sound, we wouldn't be really able to perceive the intensity and depth of the film. There are a lot of people who think visuals are important, but visuals can only extend you so far. Like in, I remember when I was traveling, in Vietnam the way, obviously the way people talk was different from here in the Bay Area, the ambulance sounds were different. The sirens of the police cars were definitely different. And also the texture and the field environment is different. Even though Saigon, we have this metropolis city that's growing, it's different from the look that we see in New York or Chicago or even San Francisco. And you can definitely tell when you, whenever you traveled there.

[00:17:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. Thank you. Well, I'm also curious, so, are there any stories that come to mind either from growing up or maybe even in this process of creating this film where you just had this moment of connecting with art in some way, and you thought, "Wow, I have to remember this because this is a moment that matters that, where art made an impact."

[00:17:42]Anh Le: I would say, it's pretty weird to say that a lot of the films I've made come from my dreams and sometimes they come with different blurbs. I just don't understand where it would go. Like I, I remember I was dreaming for this particular film there was an argument between, the two main characters and this came from an inspiration, as I said, from a short film, I was working on. I was thinking about it. And for some reason, like three to four weeks, I was stuck in, in this dream trying to understand, "Okay, what are the characters arguing about?" What are they, what are stressing about, what are the flaws that we have here? And after that, it was a challenge actually writing this particular story in order because of the twist that is involved. I had to work backwards. So I, I had written the ending. I knew what would happen to the characters, but I didn't know how to begin it. So I had to float us backwards. I had worked on a couple other scripts that deal with different social topics. And at the same time, they're more or less inspired by other films I've seen that come into dream as well. Of course, I don't remember every single one of my dream, but when I do remember, I jot it down in the book. Sometimes the dreams may not relate each other. And when I have an assignment or something that I can think of, that's when I really put these pieces together and understand what my characters are doing and why they want to achieve their goals.

[00:19:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And what a fascinating writing process, the fact that, yeah, you started with the ending and then worked backwards from there. I kind of love that. I haven't ever actually written them, but I've had a few instances of things like that, where I thought," Oh, this is a good ending, but I don't even know how to begin it." So that's pretty cool. Excellent. Well, you had mentioned earlier with your networking and trying to help other artists as well--and I love that, I think that's so important, especially collaboration-- but is there any particular advice that you would give to someone who wants to pursue a artistic endeavor, especially-- well, actually, let me just start there and then I'll ask a follow-up question.

[00:20:05] Anh Le: For someone who's pursuing an artistic endeavor in general, I would stretch out what kind of goals you want to achieve. For example, in five years, in 10 years, because I have met very talented people who have changed their position from being an artist to maybe something that's more substantial. Like I said, computer engineering, communications, business administration, but at the same time that people have met, they haven't solidified down what kind of projects or goals that they want to make. So I would first find that out because that will more or less determined how you want to pursue a goal. Because without that, without those goals, if you just want to become a filmmaker, that may be a challenge to really going for what kind of position you want. At the same time for filmmaking, they come in so many different avenues. You can utilize it for commercialism. I'm sure a lot of business, they will need this kind of art in order to promote their products as well. So we've seen that out in the field and not the same time. YouTube is highly accessible. So really understanding your goals, making plans and really going forward them will help you pursue a lot more in the art field rather than just saying, "Oh, I want to become an artist and I'm going to make stuff."

[00:21:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Thank you for that. I think that is really incredible advice. And I want to highlight something that you said that I often also say, especially when I am talking about pursuing dreams--but you had said that there are many avenues, and I think that's such an important concept of--you know, as an artist, flexibility is sort of part of the job, but that's an exciting element of the job. So there are always so many avenues to a dream. And if one particular one doesn't quite pan out the way that you thought, there are so many more, if you're willing to explore them. So thank you for that, because I think that's just a very incredibly important observation. And then my part B for that question is what you're doing is undertaking a huge dream and goal. And I have so much admiration and respect for that. I think that that is incredible. What kind of advice would you give to someone who has a dream on that scale?

[00:22:49] Anh Le: For that scale, again, I would say understand your goals and how you want to go forth with your career--and when you make the plans for those of course, I'm sure COVID-19 has ruined a lot of plans for everyone--but backup plans also help us well. I've also met artists who have full-time jobs and part-time jobs with their main career. And you like see film as part of their main dream. You know, some people have been secretly making films in the attic or in the backyard or something, and it worked out. Some of them have won festivals and such. So really art doesn't need too much. It really needs a goal to motivate people to pursuing it. Because without that, I mean, it will be very difficult to strive for your dream if you don't have a vision for it.

[00:23:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, so true. Thank you for that. That was great. Well, I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:23:58] Anh Le: No problem, ask away.

[00:24:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Wonderful. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:24:07] Anh Le: To me, art is something where for me I can utilize to heal the wounds of society. But it's also a very interesting way of expressing storytelling because I've seen, for example, abstract art, and I'm an artist myself too. So sometimes I see it and I just connected with things maybe, for example, the sun or, or like the womb of someone, every person sees art differently. And, even with one movie, people can say so many things. For example, like, one person can say, "Oh, from this movie, I learned more about domestic abuse and the effects of it." But another person might say, "I've learned about the importance of having a mentor in life." So you can have one movie. It's the same exact story. But so many different takes. And I think art has pursued the same way, because it is a way where we share, we share stories and everyone takes, has different take based on how they were raised, how they were influenced by art and so forth.

[00:25:21]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Great. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:28] Anh Le: The most important role of an artist? I believe it's really getting their story out there because again, stories can come in so many different forms from sculptures and ceramics and everything that you can imagine. I know a lot of people of color are really trying to get their stories out there in the industry. And definitely there has been much more opportunity for them than there has ever before though. So, in COVID-19 the opportunities now, people can start connecting with each other much more easily, rather than going face-to-face and location that might cost them, might have much more cost to an artist anticipated. So really taking the opportunity now to share these stories, or even put these stories in development. So that way they could bring more awareness to the world or even enhance a beauty of a particular culture.

[00:26:24]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is for inclusive, the artist shares something, you know, what they've created with the world and gives a little bit of context behind that could be as simple as a title, or it could be something where it's program notes, or an explanation of what the artist was thinking, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their art out into the world and doesn't provide much context behind it. So it's more up to the audience to decide. If that makes sense.

[00:27:07] Anh Le: Wow, this is one of those questions you got me stumped. So I really believe it depends on the artist itself, because for me, I want to be inclusive and exclusive on my art because not only am I going to share my narrative towards my community, but also want to see the unique perspectives that they will provide to the film. Because, that will allow me to know, "Oh, this is what they pay attention to. This is what's significant to them." Maybe for some other artists, they rather be more inclusive or they'd rather be more exclusive. It really depends on each person. And, everything has a storytelling process. So each person, they're first in what perspective they want to tell. That's, that's what I have to say.

[00:27:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Thank you. So I'm curious, is there a way for us to kind of keep in step with you a little bit as you work towards the production of this film and maybe connect with you personally, especially if anyone's seeking additional advice, is there a way for us to do that?

[00:28:16] Anh Le: Sure. I have a website for my feature film. So the feature film title is "Flaws of an Everlasting Memory" and yes, it is a long title. So we narrowed it down to the initials FOAEM.com. It has all the informations for all of our film, and I believe there is an About page where you can reach out to the creative team, with the email, LinkedIn, and maybe even their portfolios. I know I put my portfolio up there if anyone wants access to it. And, I'd be more than happy to connect with anyone who would simply like to network or is looking for advice, or wants to have a tea day out because I, I sure do love drinking tea during this time of quarantine, and connecting with people.

[00:29:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And then would there be a way--is your fundraising that you're doing right now--say some of our listeners are inspired to help support your endeavor--is there a way for them to do this? Is this a public fundraiser that they can participate in?

[00:29:25] Anh Le: Yes, there is a public fundraiser. So we put up this campaign called the Holly Jolly Campaign and the link, it is tinyurl.com/foaemhjc2020. In this campaign, we provide different perks that include our work of poetry, graphic design, and specifically for those in the Bay Area, we would offer photography services because, you can have included for your portfolio, your biography, LinkedIn, and whatsoever. But the other two perks are much more accessible to a wider community. They were more than happy to share these perks with any donation that they're able to provide.

[00:30:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you again so very much for being my guest today. You were awesome. I completely comend everything that you're doing. Congratulations. This is so cool. I personally cannot wait to follow your journey and success and future success. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing your art with the world. I know that what you're doing is making a difference and it will bring about some change. And so thank you so much.

[00:30:49] Anh Le: Yeah, thank you very much for having me involved, Lindsey. I'm looking forward to see more artists coming from your podcast because I surely love enjoying listening on your stories and support.

[00:31:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, and thank you so much for everyone who has listened to this episode. I truly appreciate your support. And I hope that you have a day that is absolutely fantastic. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:31:26] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:35] Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment, and then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast. Even a very small monthly donation, like $5 a month, would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I have set up a PayPal account that you can access through the artfully told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

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In this episode, I welcome Kim Pierce! Kim is a makeup and hair artist, and the owner of The Piercing Beauty. She shares about her very first makeup kit as a young girl, to the unique opportunities she had while pursuing her college degree in theater, to what gives her joy as she works with her clients today. (Fun fact: the cover image for the episode is of a photo taken by Helen Ransom with Faces You Love Photography, featuring makeup and hair by Kim!)

Get in touch with Kim Pierce: http://www.thepiercingbeauty.com/ | https://www.facebook.com/thepiercingbeauty | thepiercingbeauty@gmail.com | https://www.instagram.com/thepiercingbeauty/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Get a free audiobook through Audible! http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold

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Episode 28 - Kim Pierce

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today the absolutely lovely Kim Pierce, who is the founder and owner of The Piercing Beauty. And she is an amazing makeup artist, as well as, she does hair. And I'm sure that just scratches the surface of your talents, Kim, but thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:04] Kim Pierce: Well, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so I was wondering, would you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself and maybe your story? How did you get into all this?

[00:01:19] Kim Pierce: Well, I think it was kind of a foregone conclusion that I was going to end up in makeup. When I was four, my mom got me this little makeup set, and I have a picture of my face when it was given to me. And you would have thought that she handed me like a pile of diamonds, because I was so excited. I mean that little waxy, nasty smelling kit that had no pigmentation and, you know, it was pretty much just dollar store stuff. I was so excited and into it, and that kind of just set me up for future asking for more makeup. And as I got older, my mom didn't wear makeup. Like never, didn't wear makeup. Didn't really do her hair. It just didn't interest her. And one time, she got sucked in by a Mary Kay lady. And so she bought tons of stuff because she was like, "I'm going to wear this every day. It's going to happen." And about two weeks later, she forfeited her entire collection to me and said, "I don't want any of this. I'm never going to use it. You play with it." And so all of a sudden I had this treasure trove of makeup to play with and learn with. And so I was about 10 then. And then I asked for Kevyn Aucoin makeup books for Christmas. And I spent hours recreating those looks and learning everything I could from these books, because back then YouTube was not a thing.

[00:02:38] And so I just gleaned everything I could from them. And by the time it was time to choose a career. The only thing I could think of was makeup. That was the only thing that even sounded plausible to do. And so instead of going to cosmetology school, my dad said you have got to get a degree. So I was like, okay, what degrees can you get with makeup in them? And so that led me to a theater degree. So I went to Emporia State University and I studied theater. And one of my interests obviously was makeup. And so I took every class that they had possible to take. And then I started doing independent studies and just finding any information that I could find. And they hired a couple of experts to come in and teach me, which was really, really cool. And so that just kind of grew from there. And eventually I got a job at Sephora after I got married and learned from people there. And then finally I decided to start my own business and start freelancing. And that's led me to the last couple of years where I met Helen at Faces You Love Photography. And she hired me to do hair and makeup for her newborn mamas. So these moms come in and they're just exhausted and tired and all they want to do is not look like they're exhausted and tired. And so she brought me in to help with that, and that's where I'm at now. And it's wonderful and amazing.

[00:04:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wonderful. I love your story. That's so fun. Oh my goodness. I do remember those really cheap--and maybe you can still buy them, I'm sure you can--but those really cheap makeup sets where you're kind of a little concerned about what's actually in them, because yeah. It can't be good. Oh man.

[00:04:23] Kim Pierce: I definitely wouldn't buy them for a child nowadays, but you know, it was a different world back then.

[00:04:29] Lindsey Dinneen: It was. It's all good. Excellent. And so, okay, so that is so cool. So you have this theater background as well. Were you also interested in the acting or producing or any part of it besides the makeup or was makeup just like always your focus?

[00:04:48] Kim Pierce: Well, at ESU, Emporia State University, where I went, they had a cohesive program. You learned everything. We learned lighting, design and sound design, costume design and everything all in one. And so I had the opportunity to do everything. I acted and was in a couple of shows, but by the time I got further into my college career, I realized that I really need to be needed to focus on what I was actually going to do after I got out of there. So that pulled me back towards makeup and that's where all the independent studies came in. And, then I started designing a couple shows. I designed the musical at ESU my senior year, which is the largest, like that's our moneymaker, like every year you do that one, and that's what really takes care of the program that the rest of the shows make money and it's great, but that's like the big one. We have to get this right. And so that was a true honor to, to take part in that. And so I did that once at the end of my senior year. And then, once after I graduated, actually I got hired on to do the next musical. So that was pretty cool, but I did a lot of different things within the department. So it definitely set up a strong work ethic because theater is a lot of work and I'm very grateful for that because--whew! I, I knew I'd have to hustle to be a makeup artist. And that is exactly what theater taught me to do. And to just be a people person. Theater is all about, you know, dealing with different types of people and talking to them and bringing out what makes them special, what makes them them. And that has really helped me on my journey to becoming a makeup artist.

[00:06:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I, I can imagine. That's excellent. Yeah. And, oh my goodness, what a cool opportunity to--I mean, obviously--just even your senior year getting to design a musical, but getting to do that a second time later. How cool is that?

[00:06:47] Kim Pierce: I was definitely on cloud nine.

[00:06:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I can only imagine. Yeah, that's amazing. So I'm just curious. Do you still use your theatrical makeup background? I mean, like, have you done theater makeup since in any capacity?

[00:07:03] Kim Pierce: You know, I really haven't. The only way my theater makeup skills come out is really just Halloween. And I used to, when I worked at Sephora, we had Sephora-ween. And so that was, you know, every cast member would dress up, not dress up, just do their makeup as a different theme every time you came to work. And so that was super fun to show off the theatrical makeup skills that I had. And, really get to play and have more fun. But theater makeup is just not where my heart lies. So it's more of a fun place to visit, but not a place to stay. Beauty makeup and that dramatic, fun, like smokey eyes and all of that. That's where I live. I want to make women feel beautiful. So I love theater makeup, and it will always have a wonderful place in my heart, but I definitely prefer the other side of beauty.

[00:07:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so having a role like yours--I'm sure with every artist and every profession and everything--I'm sure there are days when it feels more repetitive because it's-- I'm just throwing this out there. It seems like, you know, on some level it's essentially the same thing day after day. So what continues to inspire you to do it? I'm just really curious.

[00:08:21] Kim Pierce: Well, you know, you're right. It can get daunting to do, you know, the same natural face over and over. Because we're in Kansas, you know, people aren't coming into their family sessions saying, you know what, I'm going to try that plum lip. They're not, they're not into the, you know, what I would consider the exciting parts of beauty, but on the other side of that, taking a person who, you know, may not wear much makeup and you don't apply much makeup, but what you do is bring out their unique features and the things that they like about themselves, and they see themselves in a different way. And you did that. It may be boring to you, but it's everything to them. And I think that's when it kind of turns around is that, that final look in the mirror when they look at themselves and their eyes brighten, and they're just like, "Oh my gosh." And you think you haven't done anything super special, but to them, it's really meaningful because they've never really seen themselves that way.

[00:09:16] And I think that's what brings back the passion, where it just makes you feel really good about what you've done and you're like, "Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, maybe it wasn't as boring as I thought," because it had an end result that was fascinating and fulfilling, and I just love that part of it. But I also get really excited when somebody comes in and is like, you know what, I really want to go for it. Let's do like a smokey eye or a bold lip. And I'm like, "Heck yeah, let's do that." And then that's another time where it's just like super exciting. And we get to have a little bit more fun and play a little bit more. And that kind of helps break up some of the, the boredom of doing, you know, a neutral face over and over.

[00:09:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes complete sense. That sounds fun. Oh man, I'm still chuckling a little bit internally about the, you know, showing up to your family reunion with the pictures, you know, this dramatic, evening look. I kinda like it. I might do that one day.

[00:10:10] Kim Pierce: You should. You should. It wouldn't make anybody look at you strangely.

[00:10:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It'll just be very entertaining. Oh, my goodness. I love that. And so, okay, so how long have you been on your own with your own business?

[00:10:23]Kim Pierce: The business started in 2014. So that's when I started like to put together my website and really start to market myself to other people. And I had a couple of friends that hired me to do their weddings and things like that. And so I just started taking pictures of everything I could and trying to document that so people could see what I did, and I put myself on Yelp, and honestly, Yelp was a huge deal for my business. And all of a sudden people started calling and I built up more clientele and more clientele. And I try not to keep myself too busy because my focus is on my family. And that's one of the great things that this career allows me to do is, yes, I need a hustle and keep going, but I also get to choose my own schedule so that when my kids have something I'm available and I think that's--I mean, it's an amazing part of this career. Being able to come back to my kids or be there for them instead of just, you know, being gone all the time.

[00:11:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's a huge gift. Yeah, so very cool. Okay. And then, so nowadays I know you're working so closely with Helen. Do you, I imagine you still have your, your other clients on the side as well, or is it, has it shifted a little bit, or how does that whole thing work?

[00:11:42] Kim Pierce: Oh, well, I was very lucky a few years ago-- Helen, well, I guess it was about a year ago--Helen came to me and said, "You know what? I think I want to move from just doing like the newborn mamas getting their hair and makeup done, but extending it to family pictures and headshots and maternity photos," and just expanding you within her business. And I was like, "Yeah. Let's do that like yesterday." So we started to do more shoots together and that has changed everything. I've been able to keep a more consistent schedule. I've been able to make more money, obviously, but I still dedicate quite a bit of time to the wedding industry and doing special events. And I always help my friends when they come my way. But I think my favorite thing that I've been doing recently has been taking young girls when their moms bring them in and we make an appointment and we do like a little lesson and a consultation, and then I take them out shopping. We go to Ulta or wherever, and we do basically--I just take them and I'm a personal shopper, help them find what products would work for them, what they need, what they don't need, what they can spend money on, what they should save money on.

[00:12:49]And then taking them back to their house and teaching them how to use everything. It has been such a fulfilling part of my business is taking people on the same journey that I went on so many years ago by myself. And I love being there for them because it was--I mean, it wasn't bad being by myself learning all of this--but I think it would have been really nice to have somebody kind of take me along and teach me more things rather than me having to figure it all out on my own. So that's been a really fulfilling part of my business is getting to, to show young girls how to start wearing it.

[00:13:23] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so cool. And it's so funny too, because do you, do you ever end up doing that with women as well? Because I feel like there's, there's a decent percentage of us who never have quite learned.

[00:13:38] Kim Pierce: Yes. And I absolutely do. And it is, it is so much fun. I've done it with several girls that I met through Helen. They've been like, "You know what, since we had our pictures taken, I really would like some lessons 'cause I like what you did here. I like how you made this look like this." And so I'm like, "Yeah, let's, let's go." And so we, we go shopping and we spend time together and I get paid to have fun and spend time with these women. And it's just, it's incredible.

[00:14:05] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. That's a dream job right there. I love it. Well, I know Kim, you have a couple of things that kind of stood out to you, maybe to share with us. I would just love to hear some of your stories if you don't mind.

[00:14:20] Kim Pierce: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, what I've said first is that the newborn moms, when they come in to Helen's studio and they've got this newborn, that's like 10 days old, maybe less. And they are exhausted. They are barely awake on their feet. And then, they're just so dead tired and they look in the mirror and they're like, "Ugh, I just look terrible." And I'm like, "No, let's, let's do this." And so we, I just take a few minutes. They're pretty much sleeping in my chair as I try to make conversation. And I'm like, "You know what? You sleep." And by the time they're, they come back around and they're like, "Hey, wow. I look awake. I look human. I look like a normal person." And I'm like, "Yay!" That is such a great experience to have her just be so excited to just look like she remembered herself looking a few months ago. And that is just super exciting to me. And I mean, one of the best things about doing this, and if I can make that postpartum experience that we all are aware of can be just a little bit hellish--if I can just make that a tiny little bit better for them-- that, I mean, that means all the difference. And so I have to just remember that during those times where I'm just doing the neutral makeup over and over, I'm just making them look more awake and more alert.

[00:15:35] That art is in the natural and corrective makeup, just as much as the glamorous high-drama makeup. It's all important. It just has, I mean, everybody has different tastes on what they're needing or wanting in that particular situation. And so I have to keep reminding myself of that. And that goes back to the other question you asked about, does it get boring? And yeah, sometimes it does, but just remember that the skills involved in doing natural and corrective makeup may be slightly different, but it still goes back to bone structure and it still goes back to highlighting contour, and how all of that works together. And the joy on someone's face when they see what they look like is just, you just can't beat it.

[00:16:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That, that is really cool. Those moments of sort of, yeah, almost transformation of realizing, "Oh, okay. Yeah. The confidence boosting and I, okay. I'm ready for this now." Maybe on some level beforehand, they were, you know, a little apprehensive or worried it wouldn't show them off the way that they would want.

[00:16:42] Kim Pierce: So many times they come into the studio and they're like, "Thank goodness I didn't have to try to get myself ready this morning." And part of that is Helen's genius of hiring a hair and makeup artist just for, for these moms to be able to come in and not have to have prepped themselves at all, other than they have clothes on and their babies there, that's it. That's all they have to worry about. And, Helen's idea behind all of this was to make us moms, and women in general, exist in pictures because we don't like pictures taken of ourselves. We're extremely critical of ourselves all the time. We don't like what we look like. We don't like the way we fix our own hair. We don't like the way we do our own makeup. We, you know, we don't like the big zit on our face. And this, you know, when people were coming in to get their pictures taken, Helen would be like, "All right, you go and jump in." And they're like, "No, my hair's not done. I look a mess. Just take pictures of the baby."

[00:17:38] And they're losing out on all of those pictures they could have had with their child. And someday those children will look back on those pictures and there will be nothing of their own parents there to look at. And those pictures is just so precious. Those moments will just slip by so fast. And if we can make the mother feel confident enough to be in those pictures, then that's a huge achievement that she's willing to get in there. And keep those photos forever for their children to see in the future. It's just, wow. It's just a huge thing. And I credit Helen with that to be thinking about those things and to be inviting women into the studio to get ready there so that they can feel their most confident in front of her camera. And I just think that's just absolutely incredible.

[00:18:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's a great concept and I think you're absolutely spot on with all of it. And I just, I think that's really special what you all provide. So yeah. Thank you for doing that.

[00:18:38] Kim Pierce: I'm just following her brainchild.

[00:18:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, there you go. You're a part of the magic.

[00:18:43] Kim Pierce: I'm very grateful that for Helen to bring me along on that journey, because it has been incredible.

[00:18:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So, how has--just out of curiosit-- how has all this crazy changed your approach to what you do? I mean, have you had to adapt or change processes or anything like that?

[00:19:06] Kim Pierce: Yeah, well, it's definitely been tough. The financial side, I mean, we're all good there, 'cause my husband has a wonderful job and that allowed me to relax during the quarantine so that I could just figure out all of the protocols that I need to follow going into doing makeup after COVID, because there's not a lot of guidelines for makeup artists, as far as just cleanliness and especially in COVID. I mean, yes, we wash our brushes. Yes, we use alcohol to wipe things down, but it had to be taken a step further. And luckily, a lot of the processes that I personally had in place and had gleaned from Sephora were still pretty well on COVID guidelines. The only things I added, obviously, was a mask. I added a couple of bins to hold product in after I've taken it out of my kit so that it can all be sanitized before it's put back in the kit. And I did wear gloves for a while, but honestly, gloves were a recommendation that they kept going back and forth on and it made it very difficult for me, especially without the warmth of my skin, loved my fingertips to blend things. So I finally gave up on the gloves and I just sanitized like every five seconds. I don't know that there's any way to be a hundred percent safe, but I'm doing what I can to make sure that it's as safe as possible.

[00:20:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. So with the hair component, was that something that you--that obviously it's, it's complementary of course to makeup--but was it something that you had actively kind of pursued as well? Or was it something that was more like, this is a complementary skill.

[00:20:46] Kim Pierce: Yeah, it is 100 percent a complementary skill. My talent does not truly lie in hair. I get by with hair. I, my talent and my passion is for makeup. I really started doing hair because most photographers that I worked with wanted somebody who did both. They didn't want to hire two separate people. And so I took what I had learned from theater. 'Cause I had worked on wigs and hair during the shows. I took what I learned there. And then I tried to take a couple of other courses and talk to some artists and try to kind of put some skills together. And I always say, I am a makeup artist that does a little hair. I am not a hair artist that does makeup. Don't, don't get it twisted. And so I also make sure that everyone knows I don't really do updos. I do braids and curls and volume, and that's about where we stop. But pretty much any makeup you come to me with, I'm like, "Yeah, let's do that. I can do that." But the hair is just not as much my strong suit.

[00:21:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, I was going to say, I, I, yes, your work is lovely. So.

[00:21:54] Kim Pierce: Well, thank you.

[00:21:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so, okay. So, kind of moving forward, do you anticipate continuing sort of along the same trajectory as far as you know. Obviously the partnership with Helen is so great. Are you hoping to-- let's say wedding season resumes--are you hoping to do that as well? Or are you really kind of just narrowing down at this time?

[00:22:17] Kim Pierce: Honestly, I like doing it all and now that I'm not working in a retail job or any other position, I'm able to dedicate all my time to this. I mean, other than being a mom, so I don't anticipate stopping anything I'm doing. I will work with Helen as long as she wants me to, until she boots me out of there. 'Cause I just love it so much. And I'm so grateful for that opportunity. So I'll stay there forever and any other opportunity that comes my way I will definitely reach out for. I have a couple of photographers that I've been talking to about doing some boudoir sessions. And so I'm really excited about that because that's fun and hair and makeup. I mean all the time, all a hundred percent fun. So I think that's going to be pretty cool, but any opportunity that comes my way, I'm just going to keep plugging along. And I'll still do weddings, I think, unless it starts interfering with the kids' activities, but honestly, I book maybe once a month for a wedding to kind of keep that time held for my kids. So I don't anticipate anything going any other direction. I actually have one tomorrow cause...

[00:23:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh!

[00:23:23] Kim Pierce: Even with COVID, people are still getting married, even if they're smaller and less grand than the original celebration that they were planning on.

[00:23:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, excellent. Are there any other encounters with art that really kind of stand out to you, whether it was, you know, your own experience with a client or whether it was your own personal experience with a different art form or something like that, that really was like this--oh, man--I need to remember this moment?

[00:23:55] Kim Pierce: Well, you know, to go outside of, outside of makeup, theater is one of the art firms that I hold the most dear. Obviously I was a theater major and there's something about going to a musical, and the singing and the choreography and the makeup, and the costumes and the hair, the wigs, everything that comes together that is just incredibly magical. And it just sends this buzz through my entire body. And I just don't think that there's anything more magical or more artistic, and compelling then to see all of these artistic visions come together to create this one amazing Broadway show. I'm a sucker for a show tune, I'll tell you that much. So anything that's "Hamilton" or "Wicked" or even some of the lesser known Broadway musicals, like "Bring It On" is one of my favorites that nobody really knows it was even a Broadway musical, but I just love all of those. And the art that comes together and the collaboration is just something that every time I am, I just sit there in awe like, "Wow, how did they even do that? How did that many people come together to, with so many different ideas and opinions and create such a magical, perfect event. I just can't handle it."

[00:25:12]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. I think, I mean, I am also a sucker for a good musical. I mean, they have such power to give you this experience is so immersive and, and, magical. So yeah, no, I relate to that. And then do you have moments where you were, so for instance, like a show, like "Wicked," do you have moments where you're like, "Oh, I could do that makeup?"

[00:25:38]Kim Pierce: Yeah, for sure. The makeup that Elphaba wears that-- well, I'll use the first Elphaba, Idina Menzel, when that happened and I started to learn. What happened backstage at musicals, I researched that makeup and was like, "Okay, what products were used? Where did they shadow? I need to know what happened here." I need to know if they use prosthetics, how did they get that green makeup? Not to come off on her clothing and everything. And I just started going into that situation, just like, I need to know it all. And so maybe, yeah, I could do that, but like, I want to know how to do that. Like I need to understand this process.

[00:26:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing, Kim, so much. It's really fun to hear you talk specifically about, you know, the moments that stood out to you when you get this opportunity to see a woman look at herself and go, "Oh, okay. This is good." You know, I love that. So, well, I have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:26:43] Kim Pierce: Sure.

[00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:26:51] Kim Pierce: Well, to me, art is, it's really any creation or expression that provokes thought or a reaction. Every interaction that you have with art is an opportunity to have a silent conversation between you and the artist. The person experiencing it has a dialogue going in their head and the artist has already put something out into the world to discuss back and forth. I want to be a part of that conversation regardless of the role I'm in, whether I'm the person experiencing the art or I'm the artist. And to me, that's art. Art is just something that makes you think, something that makes you have a reaction.

[00:27:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. I love that--silent conversation. That's great. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:27:41] Kim Pierce: Ah, well, from the perspective of a makeup artist, it can be a little different from any other medium because makeup artistry quite often is to serve a client's needs. And once you're not necessarily putting out your own artistic vision, so for headshots or weddings, or even if you're doing like a commercial photo shoot where you have a director and they're telling you what they need or want, you're fulfilling someone else's vision. So, in these instances, my role is to execute that dream, that picture from someone else's head that I've never seen, and adapt that to the client or the model's facial structure and their skin tone and make whatever vision they have come true for that. And so that role is important to my livelihood and it also brings joy. It brings fulfillment when the client is satisfied, but that doesn't always fulfill what I need creative creatively, if that makes sense. I feel like I'm always grappling for an opportunity to serve up my own idea of beauty and my own artistic sense. But I think that part of your job as a makeup artist is to achieve both, you've got to satisfy the paying client every time obviously. And you also have to make sure you're taking time and any opportunity to nurture your own creativity, because I mean, otherwise you're going to burn out if you're just doing the same thing over and over, and you're never stretching yourself, eventually you're going to be over it. So only until you can manage both roles as a makeup artist where you're fulfilling the client's needs, but you're also edifying your creative spirit, I guess just like cultivating that within yourself. We can't really move to the next level of artistry until we've met both of those needs.

[00:29:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. And I love your perspective because it is a little different than some other artists I'm sure are kind of in the same boat, but that's a pretty unique thing, that you bring and yeah, I love that answer because you're right. You, you definitely need both. I think for your particular form of art, it's a very immediate feedback kind of situation. But even for those of us who don't necessarily have an immediate reaction on some level, we still--obviously, we need to make money through this. So we need people to be liking what we're doing. Yeah.

[00:30:12] Kim Pierce: So, I mean, it's like getting a commission from someone. They tell you what they want and you paint a picture of what they're looking for and you just don't really get that artistic input. You're doing what they wanted and you're trying to get it out the way they want it, if that makes sense. So yeah, it's kinda unique.

[00:30:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And, okay. And then my final question is, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to someone who puts the art out into the world and provides a little bit of context behind that, whether that's a title or a description or program notes or something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their art out into the world, but doesn't necessarily provide much context or any context behind it. So it's basically up to the viewer to interpret.

[00:31:06] Kim Pierce: Okay, well, as a makeup artist, again, I think most of my art would be considered exclusive. No one's telling their friends what emotion their makeup is supposed to evoke within them, you know, unless they're an influencer or on YouTube or something. And they're like, "Well, this makeup is supposed to make you feel this way." Most of us are just doing our makeup and, you know, however people look at it as how they look at it. That's not, you know, it's not the same thing, it's left to stand on its own. But I do love to see editorials, where like, in a magazine, artists are given a brief-- they have something that they have to accomplish, but they do it from their own perspective and it gives them that chance to be artistic and take their personal skills to fill a theme. But they have the creative license within that theme. And I think that's a really cool thing to look at because then when you're looking at it in the magazine, when it's published, they do put context with it and you can more readily understand what the artist was trying to convey.

[00:32:06] But for me, I like a little context personally. When I look at art, I kind of like to be met with some sort of context, some sort of clue as to what's going on within that art piece. Because I just feel like that conversation that's happening between you and the artist is a little bit more genuine because you have a hint of the true intent, I mean, because how many times have you looked at something and been like, "Oh, okay, this means this." And then you read the caption and you're like, "Oh, that was totally not what they intended me to see in this." And there is a place for that, you know, where you're, you are exploring something. And going outside of the artist intent and you feel whatever you truly feel with that. But I think part of just, you need to be able to see what that artist is trying to convey truly. And if there is some sort of context, you're able to get there a little easier, and hopefully not compromising what you as the viewer bring to that exchange. So I like a little context. I like being helped to those conclusions a little bit.

[00:33:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, perfect. I appreciate your perspective on all of that. And, I just want to say, you know, thank you so much for not only being here today, but sharing your experiences and what lights you up about your art, and thank you for creating and putting beauty out into the world, because I think that's really important and I love that you do that. So, thanks for being here.

[00:33:37] Kim Pierce: Well, thank you, Lindsey, for having me. I mean, I was seriously so excited and I, well, I told my son, he's 10 and I was like, "You know what? Mommy's going to be on a podcast. I'm going to be talking about my art." And he goes, "Oh Mom, are you sure? They meant to contact you?" "Yeah!" I was like, "Well, you little stinker. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, yeah, they'd meant to contact me, but thank you for that vote of confidence there, son." But you know, this is the same child that gave me a note like last week, that was like, "I love you, even though you're not famous."

[00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh! Well, that's so sweet.

[00:34:16] Kim Pierce: So let me tell you that I think now that he knows this is real, my credit went a little bit up in this house, so I appreciate that.

[00:34:24] Lindsey Dinneen: No problem!

[00:34:26] Kim Pierce: That was invaluable.

[00:34:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Definitely. I love it. Oh my gosh. I love it so much. Well, if, if any of our listeners, especially around the Kansas City area are interested in getting in contact with you for maybe, an opportunity, is there a way for us to follow you or any of that too?

[00:34:49] Kim Pierce: Yeah. Yeah. I've got an Instagram. That is The Piercing Beauty. And I have my email as thepiercingbeauty@gmail.com. I have a website, thepiercingbeauty.com. And then, yeah, so pretty much any way you want to connect with me, I'm out there. I'm on Facebook, with a business page and all of that. And, I mean, even if you're not in the KC Metro, I'm willing to travel. If you wanna make me go somewhere ,destination wedding, whenever this COVID stuff breaks down, I'm all for it.

[00:35:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I actually think Helen, if I remember correctly, Helen was like, "I can do destination photo shoots. That'd be fine."

[00:35:26] Kim Pierce: That sounds just like something she would say.

[00:35:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, perfect. So, so there we go. We'll just, we'll put that out there, and anyone anywhere, you have your gals for the perfect photo shoot and experience. There you go. All right, well, thank you again so much, Kim, and thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. I really appreciate your support and your interest in art and in the artists that I get to talk to. And, if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:36:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:36:14]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment. And then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast, even a very small monthly donation, like $5 a month would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I have set up a PayPal account that you can access through the artfully told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

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In this episode, I welcome Emerson Mertens! She is a professional dancer, teacher, and choreographer, as well as graphic artist. She shares her powerful story about her own journey discovering health issues that had impacted her for years, and how that has transformed the way she views art, and now how she teaches and inspires her own students. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Emerson dancing that she post-processed with her graphic design skills!)

Get in touch with Emerson Mertens: https://emersonmertens.wordpress.com/

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

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Episode 27 - Emerson Mertens

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am really excited to have today as my guest, the lovely Emerson Mertens, and she is a professional dancer, choreographer and teacher, as well as a graphic designer. And she is multitalented in many different aspects of art and life. And I am so excited to have her as my guest today and just learn a little bit more about her journey and all those good things. So thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:10] Emerson Mertens: Hi Lindsey. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:01:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you don't mind, I would love if you would share with everyone just a little bit about who you are and maybe your background and what you're up to.

[00:01:24] Emerson Mertens: Absolutely. Yeah, so I, I've been a dancer and an instructor and a choreographer for about 20 years now. And I focused a lot of my training on classical ballet, but I've also trained in several other styles. I've danced with several companies and organizations over the years, including the lovely VidaDance. So, you're a wonderful company. I had such a wonderful time doing that. And, now I mostly do freelance work, so I teach classes and workshops and I choreograph for different productions and, stage musicals. So I do a lot of that. And, I actually have a new project that I'm planning on launching really soon, which I'm really excited about. It's going to bring dance, training, and classes to people of all different ages and skill levels in a really whole new way that I've never done before. And it's going to be something that everybody can do at home. So I'm very looking forward to that. Very excited.

[00:02:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, how exciting, what a nice little sneak preview. I can't wait to find out more. Awesome. So are you planning to, and you don't have to go into too much detail if you don't want, but are you planning to do recordings kind of yourself? Like in your own home as well?

[00:02:45] Emerson Mertens: I am. Yes, I'm going to be doing some video classes and like breaking down technique and just all the things I've learned over the years, some different tips and, and just sort of everything that I've learned over all this time.

[00:03:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. And so how did you first start getting involved in, in dance?

[00:03:08] Emerson Mertens: Oh, that's a great question. I actually started when I was very young, I was about four years old and I started in ballet classes because I actually, one of my feet and legs was turned in more when I was born. So it was a way of sort of helping to train my muscles to work correctly. So, that's actually why I started dance, and then I just fell in love with it from there and turned it into my career.

[00:03:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah, that makes complete sense. I think you're not an isolated case. Different dancers obviously start for different reasons, but I, I know that it could be so helpful for things like that. So. That's so cool. Thanks for sharing that. And then what kept you going? I mean, what made you sort of fall in love with it and then decide you wanted this to be a part of your life?

[00:04:05]Emerson Mertens: I really just fell in love with the art of it. I've always been artistic. I love drawing. And now I do the graphic design, so I've always just loved art and what it, how it connects people and it's really such a way to express oneself and really see, there's so much like beauty and just a wonderful way of communicating with the world through art. And so that's always been a huge draw for me in dance and performing, and really every, every form of art that I've been involved with over the years.

[00:04:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so when you sort of started transitioning to professional dancing and teaching and choreographing, was there anything in particular, like any moments in particular that surprised you or you thought, "Oh, I not realized it was going to be like this!" Or, or anything like that.

[00:05:09] Emerson Mertens: Yeah. Actually, I'd say that was a lot with choreography. Like I always enjoyed doing it, but I never, I never knew that that would be, that's really the part of dance that I really enjoy the most overall. Like, I love dancing. I love performing. I love teaching, but choreography was, sort of a very pleasant surprise to me as part of what I really wanted to focus on. And I just loved bringing it all together and then being able to teach that to other people and have their unique artistic expression come into my choreography and make it something unique that I didn't even see ahead of time, you know? So I had like my style and what I saw in the choreography, but then getting to see the people I work with bring their own special, unique, artistic expression to, it was just really awesome. I love that.

[00:06:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It is really special to see. To see somebody's basically soul come forth and to see how they can inspire other people through their art and their movement too. So that's cool. Excellent. And so I know you have a few stories in mind in particular that you were kind of thinking about sharing. So I would love to hear your stories.

[00:06:32] Emerson Mertens: Okay. Yeah. Great. I would love to talk about specifically how I have a couple of different health conditions that I have discovered over the years and how that really has expanded my definition and how I see an artist. So to give a little backstory and context, so hopefully it makes sense overall, I'll give a little, a little behind-the-scenes on some of this. So I think there, there are obviously a lot of different kinds of art and different ways of expressing art. But a lot of times within those art forms, especially in classical ballet and the dance world in general, there's these certain boxes and molds that an artist is sort of expected to fit into. And I think, especially with ballet training, there are very specific ideals that are sort of presented as being the ultimate, like what we are supposed to be. So there can be a lot of, if you want to be a professional dancer, then you have to fit this certain criteria.

[00:07:49] And I think that sometimes that can be detrimental to the artist in a lot of ways. And that's not to say that there isn't a place for certain, reasonable standards or a level of discipline, things like achieving correct technique for your own health and physical safety is very, very important. So I do see how that is essential to the art form and the training. But on the other hand, I think there also exists a lot of expectations and sort of these underlying beliefs that I believe can be quite limiting and damaging to an artist, not only in their own expression, but also on a personal level.

[00:08:32] And I, I've experienced that myself and I have talked to a lot of people over the years that have very similar experience. So I think there's a lot of, unfortunately a sort of unhealthy strive toward perfection in a lot of ballet in particular, but also just in dance in general. And I think it really haunts a lot of artists. And even if it isn't quite that extreme for them, there's still this idea that's perpetuated in the world of, well, this is what an artist should be, or this is what a dancer ultimately should look like. So over the years, I started to realize that this underlying narrative exists in a lot of the areas of training and performing and even in, in teaching as well. And it became even more evident to me as I began to have more health problems and physical issues in myself. So I started to realize that the more challenges I began to have physically, the less I essentially fit in. I didn't really fit the mold that the dancer was supposed to fit into. So I had a lot of teachers throughout the years that, some were really amazing, wonderful teachers, and some were not so great if I'm being honest. And sometimes, some of the not-so-great ones were intentionally, pretty emotionally and mentally abusive to their students. So that was very painful to me personally. And I knew that that isn't how it should be done. That's not how we should treat people.

[00:10:17] And thankfully not all teachers are like that. But what I started to realize was that even with a lot of really good-hearted, great teachers, there's still sort of this underlying thought, that's a part of the whole system really, that a dancer has to look like this. There was a lot of that in classes and auditions. It was just sort of this, this overarching idea that the artist had to be this way. So I even remember a time when a really wonderful instructor that I worked with who was highly trained at a world-renowned school. She told me that she didn't know how to break it to her own daughter that she would never be a dancer because she didn't have the right body type. And so that was just really sad to me because it seems sad to her too, because it was like this unavoidable reality that could never be changed, even for her own daughter. And I see this a lot in dance and I've just seen so many people give up on their dreams because they didn't look the part or fit the mold.

[00:11:32] And if I had listened to some of the comments from my own instructors throughout the years, I really don't think I would have ever become a dancer or a choreographer or even a teacher myself. So kind of bringing it full circle here. When it comes to my own health journey, I always knew something was just a bit off. Like it just didn't add up always. I couldn't always do what everyone else could do. And I struggled greatly with what I thought at the time was a pretty severe lack of stamina. So, no matter how hard I pushed, I could never really get past the fact that I felt physically very tired and I had a significant amount of pain, especially in my joints, and muscles too. But mostly in my joints, I knew I had scoliosis because I had been diagnosed when I was very, very young, like in my teens, with scoliosis, which is actually somewhat common. A lot of dancers deal with that, but I knew that my daily pain issues went beyond just that, what comes with that, usually the really sore back and those sorts of issues.

[00:12:49] Things were going wrong really all over my body. And no one, not even my doctors, were able to figure out what was going wrong at the time. So it wasn't until I was diagnosed in 2014 with joint hypermobility syndrome, that's when I finally started to understand what the underlying problems were, which essentially it means that my body does not produce enough collagen. So my tendons and joints and muscles, really everything, are effected by that. So, that was something that I was dealing with all these years in training that I never really understood why I couldn't do what everybody else could do, at least not to the same extent that they could do it. I remember having teachers back then who were trying to work with me, and really great, awesome teachers, they were trying to work with me and help me figure out why I couldn't do everything the sort of normal way as far as training goes and technique.

[00:14:03] And I remember one of them telling me who was trained in Pilates and gyrotonics, he told me, he said, "It's, it's so interesting because you figured out a way without even realizing it, how to sort of mimic technical positions without..." I was able to mimic them in a way that fit my body type and how it worked. So they looked, it looked technically correct, but I was actually doing it different than everyone else. So that was really interesting to me because I didn't know why that was. I didn't realize I was doing it differently. So it, it turns out this was part of the reason because this condition affects the way I move and how it feels.

[00:14:49] So fast forward to this year and I actually have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. So now I have these two diagnoses, three, actually, if you count the scoliosis diagnosis from many, many, many years ago, and now looking back on my years of training, I, I do finally see why those challenges were so different for me than most of my fellow students. And the thing with both a joint hypermobility syndrome and fibromyalgia is that you can have good days and bad days. So some days I feel like I can run a mile, and then other days I literally feel like I can't get out of bed. So it turned out it wasn't just a lack of stamina like I thought it might be, because stamina can really be built up over time and most people can, can get past that. So what it really was was fatigue. So it was sort of this constant, heavy, tired feeling that comes with those physical conditions. So essentially it felt like I was trying to drag myself through mud. And now I look back and I think I really do wish I knew then what I know now. Like I know a lot of people say that that's something we all kind of say, as we get older, you know, there are a lot of things that we think, "Oh, if only I knew that then," and this is one of those for me, because I was just so extremely hard on myself.

[00:16:20] Like I did not think very highly of myself in even a good way. You know, as a dancer or as an athlete in any way, I just thought I wasn't good enough and I never would be. And I had, I had a lot of instructors who were exceptionally hard on me, and I just don't think it was in a way that I don't think is good for any student to really experience. I was a lot of times treated like I was dumb or lazy because I couldn't do what other people could do. And I knew that couldn't be the case because I was literally training and rehearsing 20 to 30 hours a week and understudying every part I could and really working overtime at home. So it just didn't add up to me that that would be the reason, even though I couldn't figure out what the reason was.

[00:17:16]And I think sometimes instructors can forget that there can be many reasons that a student isn't meeting their expectations. And sometimes we have to ask ourselves as instructors, if our expectations are, are really reasonable, because it's very important to teach discipline and expect our students to give that 100% effort. But at the same time, we need to be careful that we don't always place this impossible standard of perfection on our students, that's ultimately impossible to obtain, which is a lot of what I've experienced and from what I've heard from other people, it's a lot of what other people have experienced as well. So throughout my years of teaching, I found that it's actually pretty rare to come across a student who just truly does not want to try because they don't want to work hard. There's almost always some other reason that isn't adding up. And for me, that was my physical conditions that no one knew anything about at the time. I didn't, my doctors didn't.

[00:18:32] So I didn't really fit the mold as a dancer in one way or another. And so I that's when I really, really started to believe that I just wasn't good enough and I never would be. And that ultimately stole my love of dance and took my personal artistry away in a sense for a very long time. I had a very back and forth sort of relationship with dance and that there were times where I just, I didn't want to do it anymore because I just felt like it wasn't for me, it wasn't worth it. It wasn't, I could never be what I wanted to be or what I was supposed to be. So it just didn't work for me in that way. But now that I know all of this, I'm really, I'm really grateful and thankful to have these answers now and to know this, and it's really changed my perspective now as an artist and also as a teacher. As I'm teaching other people how to grow into their own artistry, it's really broadened my definition of what the artist should be, because it may be true that we can't all do the same things and fit into every specific box. But I think that's, that's okay. You know, overall everyone has their own individual challenges and unique strengths, and artistry really should be individual and unique.

[00:20:05] But I think a lot of people have kind of forgotten that over time. So now as an instructor and a choreographer myself, I really make it a priority to encourage my students to become their own unique artists and not just drive for this sort of elusive technically perfect dancer ideal look. So that's something that now I have my personal experience that is changing the way I see the entire world of dance. And I'm really grateful for that. And it's helping me too be more observant and have more compassion towards everyone I work with because I've had many students who, like me, didn't really fit the mold and it might be because they had physical challenges or maybe even just a learning difference.

[00:21:04] And that unfortunately caused a lot of people to just sort of set them aside. But I don't believe we should be doing that. Even if there's something that may keep them from becoming a principal dancer with the New York City Ballet or win trophies in a competition or those things that we all kind of strive for in the dance world, it doesn't mean that they still can't be amazing artists in other ways or other avenues. So, since there are so many different ways to define an artist, my own health journey has really helped me to expand that definition way beyond what I was often taught or shown throughout my years of training.

[00:21:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's amazing. That is such a powerful story. And first of all, thank you for sharing that because I know that, you know, parts of that story are probably difficult to reminisce over and all of that. So, so first of all, thank you so much for just being real with us, because that's a, that's a big deal. I really appreciate that.

[00:22:13] Emerson Mertens: Well, thank you. That, that means a lot.

[00:22:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And it's so interesting. I mean, I was completely captivated by your story and I think, I personally obviously have also-- for those who know this about me--have been in the dance world for my entire life too. And I can completely resonate with a lot of what Emerson has talked about in the way that, especially a more, I would say, old-school way of training sort of indicated that everyone should sort of fit this one, particular look, this one particular style, et cetera. And, I'm thankful for, for teachers and choreographers like Emerson who are stepping out to say, "You know, there are other ways," like you said, "There are other avenues and we should celebrate the uniqueness instead of squelching it." And, I'm so sorry that you've had those health issues, but I have to say, I think that perspective that you now bring to your students and to those that you work with, your colleagues, that's amazing. I mean, that's what the dance world needs. That's what the world needs is more empathy and compassion and striving to understand and not just criticize.

[00:23:34] Emerson Mertens: Absolutely. I do, I see it as sort of that, that silver lining in my experiences. Yes. It's, it's hard when we all go through these things and they're things we wish we didn't have to go through, but it can-- our experience, if we feel comfortable and are able to share it with others, then it can help someone else going through that as well, and be sort of that way we reach out and, and change things for the better and encourage other people to really be themselves and get through these hard times.

[00:24:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so I'm curious, do you have any particular advice for someone, whether they're a dancer or any kind of aspiring artist, what would you tell someone who was kind of feeling maybe a little isolated or not part of the mold? Or what would you tell them to, to encourage them to still try?

[00:24:40] Emerson Mertens: Yeah, I, I would say, and this is what I tell my students all of the time, in, in my classes that I teach is, always, always try your best. And that's really, you can be proud of that. You can know that you gave it your full effort, and if it isn't exactly like someone else's, if the outcome isn't exactly like what you see in someone else, that's okay. And you don't have to be, you don't have to look or perform, or whatever it may be, exactly like someone else, because essentially that's what art is. It's very personal and it's very individual and unique and you can bring something to whatever it is you love in a way that no one else can. And so you should always just give everything. You've got to do that. And that will be, that will be enough. You don't have to be enough for anyone in this sort of, this look of perfection or ideal of the ultimate or whatever. Like I said, there are standards that we should--good standards that we should always try to strive for. A lot of it's for physical health and like dance, or, you know, a level of discipline, things like that. But, as long as you're doing those things, it's okay if, if yours looks different than someone else's. That's actually what's good about art, is it can be your expression.

[00:26:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I personally have had the privilege of watching you dance and dancing alongside you. And I have to caveat to anyone listening to this--Emerson is a gorgeous dancer and seriously through whatever differences or even if you would consider them, you know, limitations or whatever you would consider them-- you have always shown a level of artistry and care with your technique and your expression that I think is really special. And so, yeah, to anyone listening, I just want to make sure they understand that Emerson is a fantastic, fantastic performer. And I didn't know about a lot of the health issues that you had to deal with, but I wouldn't have known from your technique either.

[00:27:12]Emerson Mertens: Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I, I did, I tried really hard, so I appreciate that. And I, I have to say also that's one thing I've just always admired about you and I just love about you as a person, is every time we worked together, we worked together in three different companies and in different ways. So we've worked together quite a bit. I always loved how that the people are what's important to you, and that makes such a difference. You see everybody's individual, their heart and their passion and their love for what they do. And you, you encourage that. And that I've just always loved that. Especially as you've been a director of VidaDance, your own company, and a teacher, that's just something I really admire. So thank you for doing that.

[00:28:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. And I know we we're on such the same page and we resonate so much, but yeah, you're absolutely right. It's about the people and the people have to come first. It's--you're taking care, especially when you're leading in any capacity, whether that's as a teacher or a choreographer, or really, even as a fellow dancer, you're taking care of somebody else's soul and heart, and that's a huge responsibility.

[00:28:28] Emerson Mertens: Yes.

[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. So I'm curious-- you've kind of, I had mentioned at the beginning, and you sort of touched on it too, that you started dabbling a little bit in other, well, not just dabble, you do this professionally as well-- you started by, I guess, maybe dabbling in drawing and graphic design. And so how has that been a different expression for you?

[00:28:52] Emerson Mertens: Oh, yeah, that's a great question. I, wow, where do I start? It's, it has been different than the performing arts. Obviously it is a different, type of art, but I see so many, so many similarities and a lot of-- I often, I see that my expression in graphic design and, and drawing. I have that same kind of joy that I do when I'm on stage and performing and everything. So it's, it's another wonderful way of expressing feelings and ideas and, and just the beauty of the world and everything. It, it does sort of translate in the same sort of way as the performing arts does, it's just a different avenue and I have loved how I've seen more graphic art and, and videography, and everything's sort of come together with the performing arts world, especially over the last year. There's been a lot of that because we've been home and we've been seeing more on the internet and everything. And I think it's really cool to see the two worlds kind of collide and combine in that way, in ways that I haven't really seen as much before. So I love being kind of in both worlds there. And then also seeing them come together.

[00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for all of your insights and your heart for the arts and for the world. I think that's really incredible. I was wondering if it's okay to ask you my three questions that I like to ask my guests?

[00:30:37] Emerson Mertens: Absolutely.

[00:30:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:30:47] Emerson Mertens: Okay. You have such great questions. I love these questions. Art, I think, it's so many things. It's, it's kind of hard to pinpoint an exact definition, but I think what stands out to me the most is that art is really a form of communication. So it has that ability kind of, like I said earlier, to connect people. And it has a way of touching people that I think a lot of the normal ways of communication can't always do. So it's a form of communication with others. And I think it's also a form of self-expression, which is, in a way, essentially sort of another form of communication because we're communicating what we think or feel ourselves to others. So I think that's really true of any kind of art, whether it's dance or music or painting or, or graphic arts--it's essentially communicating some idea or feeling, or even maybe an entire story. Like in the case of dance, a lot of times it's an entire story. It's communicating that to the viewer or listener in, in that artist's own unique way. And that can be a really powerful thing.

[00:32:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Perfect. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:32:10] Emerson Mertens: I am a Christian, so I believe that God has gifted us all with unique talents and things that we are especially passionate about to really share with the world. So I think for me, the most important role of an artist is really to share truth, hope, and beauty through my art. And that may look different depending on the type of art or the topic. It might not always be obvious on the surface, but I think that at least one of those things usually lies at the heart of nearly everything we share as artists. So to give an example of what I mean, an artist may create a piece that reflects a very difficult subject. So it might not really be positive or, or joyful in the presentation because of what that subject is, but there might, there may still be that truth that can be learned from that or a spark of hope that's conveyed to the audience. So no matter if we're painting a picture of colorful, pretty butterflies in a field, or I'm choreographing a dance about a really hard struggle like anxiety or loss. I believe that as artists, we should always try to look for those opportunities to bring that truth, hope, or beauty into our art in, in a way that really highlights the meaning and the purpose behind it.

[00:33:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And amen to that. I love that. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive simply refers to an artist who puts something out into the world and includes some context behind it, whether that's, it could be as simple as a title, it could be program notes, it could be a description. It's just some context, versus exclusive being when the artist puts something out there and doesn't provide context. And then basically then at that point, it's up to the audience or the viewer to come up with their own thoughts.

[00:34:37] Emerson Mertens: Sure. Yeah. That's, that's really important I think to, to think about as an artist and speaking from my own personal experience, I'm, I'm one of those people that, when I hear a song on the radio, I like immediately go to the internet and try to figure out like what the artist was thinking behind it, like their, their idea behind why they wrote the lyrics that way to everything. So I really like knowing the meaning behind things. And I think it's important sometimes to know that intent behind the art, because if something's just completely abstract to us, then we might have difficulty connecting with that art. And it might not have that same personal impact on us as if we did know more about it.

[00:35:22] But then at the same time, I also believe that there's a place for subtlety and art. So those little details that maybe aren't fully explained, but they still have meaning behind them because if everything's explained upfront, then we might lose some of that personal connection to the art because we can't connect personally, maybe with that, with exactly with what the artist is thinking. So, sometimes the subtlety, those little subtle elements can be poetic and profound to us as the viewer or listener. And that really speaks to our own individual experiences. So I guess I sort of land somewhere in the middle of exclusive and inclusive in art. I think it really depends on the type of art and the story that an artist is hoping to portray that should really lead them more one way towards exclusivity or the other way towards inclusivity and how they choose to share it. But overall, I generally think it should be a little bit of both in most cases.

[00:36:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you again so much for just being my guest today. I really appreciated your insights and your honesty, and sharing just what helped you basically become who you are and the way that you approach your art. And so I just want to say thank you so much for continuing to create and finding creative ways to dance and to teach. And, and again, maybe it doesn't look quite the same, but I think that that's something to be celebrated. So thank you for continuing to share art with the world. I think that what you do really matters and it really makes a difference.

[00:37:15] Emerson Mertens: Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. I was so glad to be on. I love what you're doing with this podcast. I, I love learning more about all kinds of different artists, and I just think everybody's experience really can, can help us see all kinds of different things that we may have never noticed before. And I just, I love that. So thank you so much for having me on and having me share my experience.

[00:37:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I completely agree with you and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I really appreciate your support. And I hope if you're feeling as inspired as I am, if you wouldn't mind just sharing this episode with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:38:02] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:38:12]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, it's Lindsey here. I want to say, first of all, thank you so very much for your continued support of Artfully Told, for listening to the episodes, and for being a part of bringing art to the world. I really believe that what we're doing is important and matters, and I'm just excited to share art with you on a continual basis. I do want to reach out to you. I do the whole podcasts myself, from the interviews themselves, to the editing, to the transcribing, and then of course posting and all that good stuff. And I absolutely love what I do, but it is both time-consuming and expensive to run a podcast. I have to have the proper equipment, and then of course the proper editing software and hosting platform. And in order to continue to be able to do this on a sustainable basis for the future, I'm asking our listeners, if you guys would consider supporting the podcast. Even a very small monthly donation, like $5 a month, would really go a long way towards me being able to continue to do this in the future. And so I have set up a PayPal account that you can access through the Artfully Told website, which is www.artfullytold.podbean.com. And I would love if you would consider just making a monthly reoccurring donation to support the podcast. We don't have corporate sponsors. So everything that you hear is me doing this from a labor of love. And I love it, but I would ask if you would perhaps consider supporting it too. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day and I'll catch you next time.

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In this episode, I welcome Alden Miller! Alden is a filmmaker and the founder and owner of Alchemy Film Company. He talks about his inspiration to go from sharing fiction to non-fiction stories, and about his passion for encouraging the next generation of filmmakers and artists.

Get in touch with Alden Miller: https://alchemyfilmco.com/ | www.instagram.com/kcfilmmaker | www.instagram.com/alchemyfilmco | https://www.facebook.com/alchemyfilmco

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Episode 26 - Alden Miller

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Alden Miller. He is the founder, owner, and filmmaker extraordinare behind Alchemy Film Company. And thank you, Alden, so much for being here today.

[00:00:53] Alden Miller: Thanks for having me.

[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love to hear a little bit more about you, sort of how you got started and maybe just tell us a little bit about yourself, if you don't mind.

[00:01:05] Alden Miller: Sure. So Alden in a nutshell. I live here in Kansas City now, but I spent most of my time, I lived in Wisconsin and that's where I grew up. I went to school for film, and eventually after that, I had some internships in LA. So I did that for about a year or so. Life brought me back to the Midwest. And so I came back here, ended up getting a job for PBS. And, yeah, I was there for about 10 years and I said, "See you guys. I can do this on my own." And I left them to go do my own documentary type work.

[00:01:39] Lindsey Dinneen: That's very cool. And so what made you start to get interested in filmmaking in the first place? What prompted that?

[00:01:48] Alden Miller: So, well, definitely, well kind of, you know, I'm aging myself with this story, but so I went to the theater when I was senior, senior in high school. I think I ended up going to see a movie in the theater, ended up seeing it like seven times in the theater, which wasn't that common to do--maybe it's, I don't know if it's still common to do it all, but-- and I'm seeing it a bunch of times just because it kind of blew my mind of what, how it was presented. And so, I mean, the movie was "Pulp Fiction." And so, as a teenage boy, of course, you know, I love the guns and the violence and all that stuff, but the non-linear storytelling was the thing that kind of blew my mind. and so then I was like, "Oh my God, like, you can do that?" And so I really liked that, you know, in the future, I find out that he stole that from Japanese storytelling and they did it all the time. But, that was very cool. And so that did that. I kind of switched gears completely because I was a complete science nerd, and I just decided to do that. I was still going to school kind of doing the science-y thing, but halfway through freshman year of college, I just said, "Yep. You know what? I'm just going to go do movie stuff."

[00:02:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. So some of these internships that you had in LA, were they for more of feature-film type movies, or were they--how, how did you switch to documentary making from, you know, your initial interest?

[00:03:14] Alden Miller: Yeah. So when I started film school, I, you know, I went in like every other person that goes into film school, 'cause I'm going to be the next Spielberg, right? So that's what everyone else wants to do. Or maybe, you know, who's that guy-- the guy who did the Batman movies, maybe Chris Nolan is the, is the popular guy. But, so I went in to do that kind of thing, was still kind of into the feature and the narrative type storytelling. And when I left, when I ended up coming back to PBS or fast forward to PBS, documentaries were more on my radar, obviously, because they do a lot of documentary work. And so I was learning like the ins and outs of it. Still doing short films of like, a narrative scripted nature. And then when I kind of went out on my own, I was meeting people that were doing amazing things, and stories that needed to be told that no one knew about. And, you know, it was kinda funny that these people are out doing things, and their stories were much better than the stories that I was making up, or my friends were making up, that we were telling. And so I'm like, these stories need to be told. The world doesn't need another zombie movie. You know, they should learn about this guy that was finding water in Africa with the use of an iPad that had no wifi. That's pretty amazing. Those kinds of stories kind of stuck with me, and I felt that was a little more valuable with my time.

[00:04:39] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. And so your work with PBS sounded like it kind of helped launch your own company eventually, or, you know, a little bit was the inspiration or led into it. But when you stepped out on your own, what was that like? I mean, that's a, that's a huge step forward.

[00:05:01] Alden Miller: Yeah, it was. Well, the funny thing is, is that I just had a kid and I was like, "Hey, we have new baby. Well, you know what I should do, I should probably quit my job and start a new thing." To do something silly like that. But when I did it, I was kind of, you know, doing it, I was planning things out. 'Cause I, since I've moved to Kansas City, I was been there for, you know, eight, 10 years or so. You know, I've, I found my own networks of my own connections and stuff like that. I had three different kind of production houses or whatever kinda just told me like, "Hey, you know, if you, if ever need more freelance work or whatever, like I got your back, like I will send you work." And I know I have to take that with a grain of salt, but I had three or four different companies telling me that I'm like, "You know what, now's the time. Like if one isn't doing it, like then maybe the others will do it." I will have work for me. That first year when I went on my own, no one ever called me. That was a good time. Yeah. So, I just leave it kind of like a little bit of a, a word of warning, but not to scare people away from doing what they want to do.

[00:06:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, it's yes, stepping out on your own, especially if you feel like there's a lot of support upfront, sometimes doesn't pan out quite in the way that you think that it will. So, but, but then you meet other people and you have other clients that become attracted to you and all that. So it works out. Yeah. But yeah. So now, okay, so you've had your own company for now how many years?

[00:06:33] Alden Miller: She's over five. Okay. All right. So just say how old my daughter is. So there you go.

[00:06:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Easy to remember. Okay, so seven years. So when did you start feeling like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I can definitely do this." I mean, obviously you can do the work. I don't mean it like that, but being out on your own and developing your company in addition to doing your work, which is a whole other thing.

[00:07:00] Alden Miller: Yeah. I think in year 10, I'm going to be coming into my own there.

[00:07:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough.

[00:07:05] Alden Miller: I mean, a couple of years, like every, I mean, every year it gets bigger and better. So first year and the first year was like, wasn't even like an official year. Like I went on my own, like in May or June. And I kind of considered up to December that first year. So like the first year was, pretty much sucked. The second year was, got a little bit better and just, you know, step-by-step just getting better, making less mistakes is really the key. Because I made pretty much every mistake you could as a small business and, yeah. Yeah. It's much more about the business than it is about the art when you're doing these kind of things. And that's what they never tell you.

[00:07:41] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so true. That is so true. Yes, indeed. So, but back to your art, what are some of the moments that really stand out to you, or stories that you've been able to tell that really stand out to you as like, "Wow, I'm so glad I got to be a part of that."

[00:08:01] Alden Miller: You know, it's tough because I don't-- nothing jumps ahead of me like this, this particular story here. You know, when I worked with PBS, I guess one of the climax of the PBS was, we did a story on World War II veterans in Missouri. So we went and interviewed all the living World War II vets that lived in Missouri and told their stories. So it could have been a Marine that was, stormed Ujima. It could have been a Rosie Riveter. It could have been, you know, someone in the Navy, you know, and just kind of put all those stories together and made one documentary. So that was very cool. And that probably was one of those things that really cemented or got my eyes on documentary work. Just seeing those stories and kind of put that on the radar. As far as my own, own things, like nothing specifically jumps out. I just really like telling the next story. You know, one of the things--like I am a filmmaker, but really I'm a storyteller. Film is just the avenue that I choose to tell stories, because it's the best way to, in my mind, the best way to get the story told. But I mean, if all cameras broke, like magically broke one day, I would be the first to run around with some crayons and start drawing things. I really don't care what medium it is, but you know, story or video is just what is obviously out there. So that's what I'm using.

[00:09:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and so we've been using the term "documentary" a lot, but when you do your filmmaking, how long are these average films that you're doing? I mean, are you doing full length documentaries mostly or are they smaller kinds of works or both or?

[00:09:40]Alden Miller: So what I'm doing, what I'm playing with a lot now is more series-based. So, running time-wise, it might be a hundred minutes or beyond, but it's in smaller chunks. So maybe like five minute episodes, or 15 or 20 minute episodes of something that, you know, is a 13 part series. And so you get to tell--like, it's almost like your own little TV series where you get to have the middle, the beginning, the middle, the end, which I find is really cool. I think the series and the shorter form is the way to go.

[00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Very cool.

[00:10:15] Alden Miller: I mean, assuming that you want eyeballs on your stories, so, you know.

[00:10:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And so now, who is your typical client? Is it a business? Is it an individual? Is it an artist? What do you normally see?

[00:10:30] Alden Miller: I'm attracted to kind of inspiring stories and stories that I feel are going to change the world, or need to be told. And a lot of those people tend to be startups, and/or nonprofits. And so those are a lot of my clients. I do have some other mainstream clients, you know, because, you know, you need to pay bills, but the ones I'm really, you know, get excited about are kind of the really, in my mind, the cool stories that I feel need to be told.

[00:11:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you talked about storytelling earlier and I absolutely agree. I think you have a very particular knack for that--but then it's great because you have all the skills needed to put that into a film--but back to the storytelling aspect, I heard you speak one time about the power for a business, the power in storytelling. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about that?

[00:11:29] Alden Miller: Sure. One thing. So one of the, what I was talking about then was, well, the importance of telling the, telling your story on your terms. You know, you're being the steward of your own storytelling instead of letting others talk about you, kind of like a word-of-mouth thing. Like people talk about word-of-mouth being very positive things. Especially in business, like, that's my marketing, my word-of-mouth. Like everyone's talking about me! But it, as long as they're talking about you the way that you want them to be talking about you, you basically have to tell people how to broadcast you out there. And so, you know, for example, like if, if there was a restaurant where, you know, you're telling--Person A is telling Person B like, "Hey, I went to this restaurant last night. It was awesome. It's crazy! Like, the servers, the cooks and stuff like that, they're all like ex-felons or ex-convicts like, they're just outa, they're just outa jail. And then like, you know, they serve your food, you give them their credit card and like run away and come back."

[00:12:22] Like, you know, I don't know if Person B is going to be very excited to go to that restaurant. They're like, " Who's my server?" Because they had that image in their head. Now, if you explain it in a different way and you kind of show what's going on, you tell their stories of like what was going on in their situations, of more of the story behind who these people are, and get their whys and things like that. It's, it becomes a very inspiring story and you learn about the purpose of the entire cafe and why it was there and stuff like that. And so that gets people excited. And then they'll probably end up checking that out as a restaurant, for example.

[00:12:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Absolutely. And it's, and then when you're controlling that narrative, you're able to talk about the redemptive qualities and share the purpose and the mission and why it's so important. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's really cool. Well, do you have any particular projects coming up that you're really excited about, and I'm sure you can't go super far into the nitty gritty details, but anything in particular, that's really exciting you these days?

[00:13:26] Alden Miller: Well, I'm wrapping up a big one, which I'm pretty excited about, and I'm also equally excited to be wrapping it up just 'cause I'm ready to go do something else. I'm kind of in my own little flux period myself. And so my own storytelling and branding and stuff like that is going to be changing a little bit. And so, you know, hopefully, hopefully that's, that's done. And it's a very exciting thing. Like just thinking about those kinds of things kind of excites me, because I'm kind of a nitpicker type thing. And so I'll just, you know, sit there and tweak things 'til the end of time, so that part of the business part, it's kind of exciting going on. The art stuff, as far as different projects, there's a couple of things on the horizon because of the day and age of where we are as a nation now, it's kind of transformed my business. And so just different ways to tell stories is kind of the, is the challenge and the excitement now.

[00:14:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. It really, definitely having to adapt to the times, that's been a running theme amongst all the artists that I've been talking to lately for sure. Yeah. Well, so I'm curious, and I'm sure you've dealt with this before in the past, but you know, traditionally or historically, the Midwest hasn't exactly been known for a lot of filmmaking opportunities or at least not the place that you would venture to for it. So how, how has that changed over time and what do you see as being a good thing about being here versus say in LA?

[00:14:57] Alden Miller: So, yeah. So the thing about, the good thing about being here or being in the desert or being in the mountains in Montana or something like that, is that the stories that you live through day in and day out, that you feel are boring, are stories that LA can't tell. And so if you are an aspiring filmmaker, for example, or something that you want to, you know, you want to go do the film school thing and go do your thing and get your stories told, the best thing to do is just to go out your front door and start. Turn on your camera and start telling the stories, because your unique point of view is what is going to sell you. And your stories, because everyone is telling the same exact story in Hollywood. You know, there's only like five narratives going on and they're just being told over and over and over. And everyone, everyone knows that. And at the same time, everyone loves those five stories. So every time that story sells, I'm going to go to the theater, just like everybody else. But, to get out there, you have to be unique. And the easiest way to be unique is to show where you live.

[00:15:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that. With that, I feel like something that I've observed about your work in particular and kind of who you are as a person, it seems like you do a lot of mentoring-- maybe not formally, sometimes formally--it seems like you bring interns in, and help them learn to sort a lot of on the job training and things. But can you speak to that aspect of what you enjoy or why that's important to you?

[00:16:25] Alden Miller: Yeah. it just feels like it's important to keep the knowledge flowing sort of thing. There's some people that talk about it is your, it is your duty to, like, send the elevator back down sort of thing. Like if you, after you've made it, you send other people down. I, by no means I'm thinking I've made it, but I do like seeing that we're fanning the flames of people being interested in any kind of creative endeavors is probably the best way to describe it. I used to try to fan the flames or throw gasoline on places where I thought there was fire and it doesn't work out very well. I'm taking a little bit of a step back waiting for more initiative to be happened on the other side. But, yeah, mentoring is important, I believe it helps, it makes you be a better artist as well, just so you understand the concepts and things. I find enjoyment in teaching things. And I, I guess I'm pretty decent at it, so I like to do it.

[00:17:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then, so sort of along with that, what kind of organizations are you personally involved in that kind of help your creative side come out and also maybe sort of share and, inspire others as well?

[00:17:39] Alden Miller: Yep. So, here in Kansas City, there's a number of different groups that help filmmakers out there. I'm on the board of a couple of them. I currently happen to be the President of the Independent Filmmakers Coalition here in Kansas City. It is a 25-plus-year old organization that's been out there, and making films and showing people how to make films for a while. And it's a good place for a lot of people that come in. There's basically two types of people that come in. There was the person that, they're finding it in their twenties or thirties, and it's a nice artistic outlet for them. And they don't want to, they're not really interested in making filmmaking their vocation. They just want to do it for fun. There's also the younger people that come in, like they happen to find out about it. And they're about to go to film school or they're deciding if they want to go to film school. And so they're trying this out and getting some stuff under their belt before they go off to another school. And then there's some people that are just, they're just to connect with other filmmakers and that's where a lot of the mentoring takes place, I guess, just showing people the ropes. I talked to a lot of people's parents about whether Billy should go to film school or not.

[00:18:50] Lindsey Dinneen: And one of the things that I personally have really admired about that organization is that you all are very collaborative in nature. And I think that that's really, that speaks to the strength of the organization and the people who are involved--but one particular aspect that I really like, in fact, it's how we first met is through-- and you had a great name for it--but basically artists would meet filmmakers. Obviously we're all artists, but different kinds of artists would meet filmmakers and those stories would be told at the Kansas City Fringe Festival. Can you share more about that whole process?

[00:19:32] Alden Miller: Sure, so, and ironically, it just kind of like 90% of those stories are documentary. So it's kind of funny that, you know, those are another one of those things that, telling stories about other artists in the area, whether you're a painter or a sculptor or a dancer or tattoo artists, you know, whatever kind of artistic things that are going on. It's just, it's just good to see other arts being displayed, I guess. And a lot of times those people don't have access to get their story told in that venue or that type of media. And so doing that is just, it's kind of a fun, it's just a fun, little collaborative thing for all the different artists in Kansas City to all work together.

[00:20:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It's a really neat opportunity. And I hope in the future that it will continue when things get back to slightly normal, because it is really interesting. And I, one of the things I've always appreciated about the Fringe Festival in particular is how artists are supporting each other across mediums. And there's, there's not like a, "Oh, you're, you're a filmmaker and I'm a visual artist." Or, you know, that doesn't exist. And I think that's really cool about how supportive artists are of each other. Okay, so when you are talking to, let's say a parent, maybe their teen is there too, and you're in, you're trying to give some advice. What do you think is the most important thing to share with them when it comes to--like, what would you tell me if I wanted to maybe pursue this?

[00:21:02] Alden Miller: So the, my biggest thing that I talk about now is that everyone--and this is, you know, I'm sure you've heard this-- this story or this phrase before is that, you know, everyone has a camera in their pocket now. And so there is no excuse. If you want to go tell a story and you wanted to go make a video, like there is nothing holding you back. You know, when I started, I was running around with a film camera-- well, first I was running around with like one of those VCR shoulder-pack things. I went to school, ended up running around with a 16 millimeter camera and you're literally cutting film to piece it together to make your edits. And now we're talking about shooting stuff on your phone with an app and it's done in a minute. There's really no excuse. And so, which is good because you're taking away all the barriers, all the technical barriers. So people can go straight to creativity, and that's pretty much what technology is going to help us do in the future here, is going to make it more and more seamless for us. So we can be telling stories in a much faster and more organic way.

[00:22:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Well, I do have a few questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:22:11] Alden Miller: Mhmm.

[00:22:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Okay. So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:22:18]Alden Miller: Art is presenting whatever is in your head out to the world. It's like your mind's eye just kind of like showing it, you know, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking about, or this is what I'm feeling or showing."

[00:22:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:22:38] Alden Miller: The showing or expression of the art, because it does no good for it to be in your head, in your head alone.

[00:22:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then I'll define my terms a little bit for my final question, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts something out there and they have a little bit of context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or something, versus exclusive, meaning the artists just puts their work out into the world and then doesn't necessarily put any context behind it. So it's completely up to the viewer what to interpret.

[00:23:21]Alden Miller: So I believe that, from a film point of view, once the filmmaker is put the film out there-- you know, they've told them, they've written their story, they've shot their story, they've edited the story, they've done everything they can possibly do to get the story told in their mind-- and so it's out to the public and it is what it is. And you know, the public can take it for whatever it is, I believe, and they can interpret how they want, and whether that's right or wrong, like, I think the artist really just need to shut up and just let people think what they want to think about a certain thing. And if they don't like the way it has been interpreted, well, better get better next time.

[00:23:58] Lindsey Dinneen: About communicating exactly what you want to communicate essentially. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. All right. Well, is there a way for people who went to follow your work or, you know, see some of what you've done, is there a way for them to connect with you right now?

[00:24:16] Alden Miller: I think Instagram's probably the easiest way to get ahold of me, and that is @kcfilmmaker and @ @alchemyfilmco is the web address for that.

[00:24:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being here today. All I really appreciate it. It was fun to hear your journey and how it's kind of morphed and changed over time. And I appreciate you sharing your perspective. So thank you again. I really appreciate it.

[00:24:44] Alden Miller: No problem, I hope, I hope it was entertaining.

[00:24:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Very. All right. Well, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share it with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:25:02] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Crystal Tiehen! Crystal is an intuitive health and wellness coach, as well as an artist who refinishes and repurposes furniture. She shares how art has played an important role in her life and journey from a difficult past to a healthy and vibrant future. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of one of the pieces of furniture that Crystal refinished!)

Get in touch with Crystal Tiehen: www.crystalineyourjourney.com | www.crystalineyourlife.com | https://www.facebook.com/Crystaline-Your-Life-100378194657490/ | https://www.facebook.com/Crystal-Tiehen-Coaching-472918096439001/ | www.instagram.com/crystalineyourlife

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Episode 25 - Crystal Tiehen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so very delighted to have as my guest today, the absolutely lovely Cyrstal Tiehen, and she is the founder and creator and coach behind Crystaline Your Journey, which is a fabulous name based on your name, my dear. I love it. But thank you so much for being here today, Crystal. I'm so excited to have you.

[00:01:01] Crystal Tiehen: Thank you so much for having me. This is, this is a lot of fun and it's, and it's an honor.

[00:01:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, absolutely. Well, I would love if you would share just a little bit about yourself and maybe your involvement in art.

[00:01:15] Crystal Tiehen: Yes, absolutely. You know, I live the entrepreneurial life. Crystaline Your Journey was very intuitively called to me, if you will. And I am an Intuitive Wellness Coach, so I help people access emotional and spiritual freedom through an intuitive and spiritual approach. But that's not all I do. So, you know, very interestingly enough, art, if you will, creativity, is such a huge component to really choosing change because it is a choice and allowing transformation. And so what I chose to do, for my creative outlet, and what I encourage many of my clients as well is finding a creative outlet, but we'll talk a little bit about kind of a branch of Crystaline Your Journey that's Crystaline Your Life. That is my furniture art company. And I own an online franchise where I've partnered with a liquid wood technology that creates ease for design and repurposing and transforming furniture.

[00:02:30] Lindsey Dinneen: So cool. So how'd you get started in that and what are some of your favorite pieces that you've worked on?

[00:02:38] Crystal Tiehen: Yeah, absolutely. You know, this is just kind of something that I kind of had a passion for. I've been doing it for about 10 years and without getting like too sappy, all of us have had different, you know, lived a different life, walked a different journey. And, you know, 10 years ago I was in a very, very different space. I was in a toxic relationship and abusive relationship, and what furniture art was for me in that time of my journey, and in that season of my journey was meditation before I even really knew what meditation was. You know, using a paintbrush, watching the paint change a piece was--it's transformative. It actually brings tears to my eyes right now that I think about it, because it led me, it let me be just me in that moment and not having to answer to anything else that was going on in my life. So very powerful space to be in. And I didn't even realize the relevancy of it to be perfectly honest. And I mean, sometimes it would take, sometimes it would take a month for me to get a piece finished, just because, if there was an altercation or if there was a conflict that happened in my home life, you know, I'd go downstairs and I'd sit with my paintbrush and sometimes I wouldn't even paint. So it was, it was therapeutic. I found therapy. Yeah. Yes.

[00:04:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And then, you know, that's an incredible story and thank you for sharing that, but then what's so neat to hear too, is that now you're doing this for other people, you're transforming something that they might not adore as much anymore--it doesn't match or whatever--and then you're giving them a new experience with something too, which is really cool.

[00:04:42] Crystal Tiehen: It's like, it lights me up. It lights me up to be able to, if you can imagine it, I can create it or I can show you how to create it. That's another beautiful aspect of choosing this as a creative outlet is this is something that I engage in, and practice in on a very regular basis. And so to share that with others, to share something that lights me up is an expression of myself. And I think it's so important that we express ourselves because when we suppress our expression, that's when fear can set in. That's when doubt, that's when worry, you know, you don't have fun. You know, we forget how to have fun. We forget to have joy in our experience and our process. So, yes. Thank you for, thank you for speaking to that because it's, it's an absolute joy to be able to be a part of that for people.

[00:05:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. What a unique gift that you have and can share! I just love that. Yeah. Well, and so, yeah, and so what kinds of art, obviously you've done a lot of painting and things like that, but what other kinds of art have you explored over your life so far?

[00:05:58] Crystal Tiehen: Wow. That's, that's a very interesting question. I mean, I have not done much in regards to like painting like on canvas and that sort of thing, but, you know, I really remember like getting into, I really enjoy coloring or even drawing mandalas. Like, that's always been something that I've enjoyed doing. Anytime I had a birthday or anything like that, that's what people would buy me. They buy me those mandalas that you can color in and create patterns with and mandalas are circular and speak to, you know, things always moving in time and not necessarily on a straight trajectory. And so, very powerful symbolism there that again, throughout my life I didn't know the significance of, so I've always been highly interested in that. I always remember my mom would take me to Creative Candles. I feel like that was very much a creative outlet as well when I was younger. So I don't know if you grew up in Kansas City, but Creative Candles used to be like this thing for like kids growing up in the eighties and we would go down, they would give you white candles and you got to dip them in all kinds of different colors of waxes and all kinds of stuff. And so that was always a lot of fun. That was definitely something that is brought to mind when it comes to the artistic view.

[00:07:32] And, I've always enjoyed coloring. The shading of it, being able to create dimension, dynamic-ism, if that's even a word. I do, I do remember I won a contest when there used to be Miners in Brookside. I don't know if anybody remembers that store, but it was a grocery store and it was called Miners and they had a contest to win a scooter. And it was a coloring contest. I entered it and I won. So I was 17 years old. I was young. I was really young, but I always enjoyed it. And I even enjoyed a little bit of drawing. I'm not so good with freehand, as much as like being able to look at something and recreate it. Thanks for asking.

[00:08:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I'm always so curious because I know most of us have at least dabbled in a few different forms before maybe settling on one that really speaks to you, but that's so fun.

[00:08:37] Crystal Tiehen: It is.

[00:08:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:08:38] Crystal Tiehen: And I love your, I love your creative outlet and, and how you shine for people as well!

[00:08:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. So in your coaching, you talked before a little bit about being an intuitive coach and health and wellness and all that. How does art play a role into how you coach or, or does it play a role in, in any of that?

[00:09:03] Crystal Tiehen: Oh, absolutely. There's--depending upon where people are at in their journey, and what they're opening up to, what they're tuning into--that we're, we're such multifaceted beings. So we really have very many different facets of ourselves. And when someone is, is kind of stuck, or doesn't feel like they know how to pick their style or has questions about really being able to tune into the transformative process. Furniture art is something that I teach, I coach and really show that it can be therapy. You can really move through your emotions and open up to things that need to be seen in order to create transformation not only inwardly. But of course, you know, you're learning a skill set to create outwardly as well and let that expression come into reality.

[00:10:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And do you find that the clients that you work with are open to expressing themselves through art or is it sometimes a struggle depending on whether they feel like they can do it or not?

[00:10:15] Crystal Tiehen: Oh, it's definitely very interesting to watch how--you know, I, I work with the psyche and I've been intuitively studying this stuff and frequencies and vibration and really just an energetic approach. And when we are faced with doing something that is, we don't know how to do, it can be, it can be very challenging. And, it really is incredibly supportive to have someone to hold that space for you because you sometimes go back into, you know, get triggered and go back into spaces where things like this might have happened to you earlier on in your childhood and that sort of thing. So it really can be emotionally transformative.

[00:11:09]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, as you think back over either working with clients or your own experiences, are there any particular stories that really pop out to you as being, Wow. This is a moment to remember as having had an interaction with art and just how that kind of made a difference to you or your clients or anything like that?

[00:11:37] Crystal Tiehen: Yeah. I have an intuitive design therapy program that, you can find it crystalineyourlife.com, but I also work with the overall understanding of emotional intelligence and emotional maturity and spiritual connection. And I think probably the strongest, most beautiful results or side effect, if you will, with art and connecting art and self is really being able to tune into your higher self, tune into that higher version of who you are to become. Being able to, you know, see yourself limitless, being able to, to use your imagination in ways that you didn't know you had the capability of doing so. I don't have any necessarily anything specific to say to what a client experienced, because it really is different for every single one of us and our journeys, but being able to hold space for ourselves and for each other, that's really what's going to evolve us as humans and as beings.

[00:12:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so do you have any upcoming projects that you're particularly excited about or that you're working on as far as either the furniture side of things or your own projects and things?

[00:13:15] Crystal Tiehen: I mean, I'm always, you know, shaking and moving and grooving. I have quite a few projects that I've been doing that I'm going to be updating my gallery with. My gallery is on my website. And there is, I'm in process, it's still being kind of worked out with everything, you know, that we have been challenged with with COVID and stuff like that. But hopefully I'll be doing some classes here soon, collaborating, doing some classes for the liquid wood technology that I sell and that I promote. It's absolutely amazing because it literally will virtually turn any surface into wood, any hard surface into wood. And so you can stain it. You can grain it. There's so many different ways and combinations of using the different colors and the different stains. I mean, it's just, for me, it's like limitless. I, I just throw stuff on there and see what happens. And it always comes out very beautiful, but nothing to say that is specifically in place currently with dates or anything of that nature, but definitely a lot in the world.

[00:14:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Excellent. And so are there any, I know this is probably a difficult one to answer, but what is your favorite or maybe favorite couple of pieces that you've ever worked on that brought you even more joy because they were special in some way?

[00:14:45] Crystal Tiehen: Yeah, absolutely. One of them is a piece that I totally need to redo again, because it was one of my very first pieces. And it's probably been about 10 years since I've touched it, but it's, it's a two piece, I think it's kind of like an armoire. It doesn't have the doors on it. It's just open. It's like what you would put in a dining room, like a shelving unit. That piece was probably the very first piece that that really showed me, "Wow, Crystal, this is, this is something significant. This is something that you've transformed and is now you can put into your home and feel good about it." Back then, there wasn't a lot for me to feel good about. So, so being able to, you know, find and allow something to let me feel good, was very powerful. So now I have what, so it's a two piece hutch, if you will, without doors on it. And one of the taller of the pieces sits in my Retique It room, which is liquid wood technology that I carry. And I have, I have all my Retique It stuff displayed on it and looking beautiful. And I have Retique It all throughout my house. And then the other part is in the room where my dogs stay and it has all my plants on it. So that's probably, that's probably the piece that brought me peace, if you will.

[00:16:19] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Well, I think you also touched on something really important and that is that, you know, at a time in your life when you said there wasn't a lot to feel good about to be able to have this outlet to help get you through and to feel proud of something that you created that's beautiful, that's yours. I mean, there is, that's not just an isolated thing, although I think you have just a really powerful story, but I mean, in general, that's the power of the arts, I think.

[00:16:52] Crystal Tiehen: Absolutely. I think you said that very beautifully. I think that's why it's so important to have a creative outlet.

[00:17:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, because there are seasons of life--I mean, gosh, especially now where it's tough and having something that you can do that brings you that joy is just so important. So. That's so cool.

[00:17:15] Crystal Tiehen: Thank you! Yeah, you know, and it's also brought me through to, you know, all, all of the, you know, steps that I have taken on this journey, spiritually, emotionally, but also creatively. And, you know, being able to connect with the CEO of this product that I now am partnered with and get to be involved in, in all the creativity of it. I mean, we have, we have product that comes out on our line on a regular basis. I mean, I have customized colors and there's so many things that are in play and that really give me that permission. I give myself the permission to play, to have fun, to feel creative. And when I don't win, when I'm down on myself, when I start feeling depression, because even though I'm a coach, that still can creep in every once in a while. Because I live in a, a lot of uncertainty, like a lot of us do, especially these days. And so when I am feeling that I know exactly what I can do to, to pull myself out of it, to relieve myself, to show myself self-love

[00:18:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Beautifully, beautifully worded there. So if you were to give somebody advice, maybe somebody who would be interested in starting something like what you're doing just for fun, you know, on the side, is there anything in particular that stands out to you as, as a takeaway that you would say, "Well absolutely make sure blah, blah, blah."

[00:19:04] Crystal Tiehen: Yeah. Let me think about that. I mean, I think it's important. Okay. I think it's important to be intuned and aligned and feel empowered through the inspiration that you choose. There's so much influence out there, so much influence, and it really depends on where you're at in your journey. So really, who do you listen to, and who do you pay attention to, and who do you choose to give your money to? And, you know, in order to really be able to engage and, trying this out, you know, and that choice to, to explore being creative. So I think the advice would be--really be aligned and tuned in to who is giving you that inspiration and what you're going to do with that inspiration.

[00:20:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. That's great advice. Thank you for sharing that. All right. Well, I do have three questions that I love to ask my guests, if you're okay with that.

[00:20:12] Crystal Tiehen: Well, of course!

[00:20:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:20:22] Crystal Tiehen: Art is a creative outlet. It's an emotional support. It's, it's a way to give ourselves permission to be a child to bring fun into our life, to not have to be so serious all the time and, and really be able to explore that childlike facet of ourselves. And even if it's not childlike, just being able to, to bring something that only you have created into this world. That's what art is.

[00:21:02] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that, great answer. All right. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:21:10]Crystal Tiehen: You know, it's interesting because I wouldn't even call it a role. I believe we are all artists because we are all co-creators. This is a belief system that I, I choose to really lean into is that we are all co-creators. And so having it as a role is something to say, I'm going to prioritize this. I'm going to prioritize the fact that I have the capability to be creative. I have the capability to be an artist and, and really being able to open up those doors for anyone that is willing to embrace it.

[00:21:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive, and inclusive refers to an artist to incorporate some kind of context behind what they share with the world. So whether that's as simple as a title or it's some history behind it, or kind of just basically context. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who creates their work, puts it out there and leaves it entirely to the interpretation of its audience.

[00:22:37] Crystal Tiehen: Hm. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tune into this one real quick. This is a deeper question. I think that our love for art is a lost art and there is a connectivity to loving oneself and creativity and choosing to embrace what art is here to be, what art has, is gifted us to be. So for it to be inclusive or exclusive, it is, I think it is up to the soul. I think it is up to the soul and when we can release any, any necessarily specific identification, it being inclusive or exclusive is when we can really support the artist for exactly who they're choosing to be.

[00:23:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Thank you for that. That's a different perspective than I've heard before, and I absolutely love hearing different perspectives. So thank you for that. All right. Well, if anyone wants to follow your journey or connect with you, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:23:56] Crystal Tiehen: Absolutely. I have many different ways, but crystalineyourjourney--that's crystaline with one L-- crystalineyourjourney.com is my intuitive coaching site. And then crystalineyourlife.com is my online website, where you can find all the paints, all the liquid wood, all the fun stuff that will let you start kind of playing around and seeing what is part of your journey. And then you can find me on social media. I'm on Facebook, under Crystal Tiehen Coaching, but I'm also very present, just with Crystal Tiehen. So you can always find me there as well. And then on Instagram is @crystalineyourlife.

[00:24:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I would definitely encourage our listeners to check out her websites. I have gotten to see some pictures of the furniture that she's created and it's stunning. It's so much fun to see creativity. Yeah. And the beauty of what all that. So definitely go check that out no matter what. And, if you need any intuitive coaching or any furniture that just might need a fresh face, Crystal is definitely your girl.

[00:25:18] Crystal Tiehen: Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I do custom work. So like I said originally, if you can imagine it, we can create it. So, it's always a good thing to spice things up, to freshen things up, to clear energy.

[00:25:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, definitely. All right. Well, thank you so much, Crystal, for being with us today and thank you, especially for sharing art with the world. I think that when you're willing to do that, that you really do make the world a better, more beautiful, more inclusive place. So thank you for sharing your art. I really do appreciate it. And thank you for being here.

[00:25:59] Crystal Tiehen: Yes. Thank you for having me. It's truly, like I said, it's really was an honor and, I really appreciate it.

[00:26:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. So much fun to talk with you. Well, if you are feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if our listeners would just share this episode with a friend or two, and thank you so much for listening as well, and we will catch you next time.

[00:26:25]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Helen Ransom! Helen is the owner and photographer of Faces You Love Photography, and she shares about finding her niche, building her business, and what she loves the most about her job. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is one of Helen's photos!)

Get in touch with Helen Ransom: www.facesyoulove.com | www.facebook.com/facesyoulove | www.instagram.com/facesyoulove

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 24 - Helen Ransom

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:14] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and today I am delighted to have, as my guest, the lovely Helen Ransom. She is the owner and photographer extraordinare behind Faces You Love Photography. And she is joining us actually from her studio today, which is super cool just down the road from my house actually! A little trivia. Thank you so much, Helen, for joining us. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:04] Helen Ransom: Thank you for having me, Lindsey. And I'm thankful today for a quiet studio that I could escape to. Lindsey and I met a long time ago when you started dancing in the same company that my sister is in. So we've had a few little run-ins here and there, but then got reconnected on a more personal level through Polka Dot Powerhouse. And I loved having you in the studio for headshots recently, and kind of working together and collaborating on that. And now I'm just so excited to be part of your podcast, cause I've never done this before.

[00:01:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Wahoo! I'm so glad you're here. Yes, it was such a blast to being at her studio. She has the cutest little studio. She's so good at making everyone to feel at ease. And I mean, I was laughing at myself a lot because apparently my posing needs some work.

[00:02:01] Helen Ransom: No! Stop it. You were great. You were great.

[00:02:05] Lindsey Dinneen: No, it was a great time. But yeah, so, Helen, how did you get started in photography? What sparked all of that for you?

[00:02:11] Helen Ransom: You know, it's funny. I, people ask me this all the time. They start with, you know, "Well, how long have you been in business?" And, and you know, "How long have you loved photography?" And, and my earliest memory of really loving photography goes all the way back to when I was probably nine or 10 years old. And for Christmas, I really wanted a camera and I didn't need a big camera. But of course back when I was nine or 10, it wasn't digital, it was going to be film. And I was so excited when I got this little Vivitar camera for Christmas. And, it was just a lot of fun to be taking pictures of family and my dog and things that were happening.

[00:02:51] And so that really started my love of it. And then, I kind of fell away for a while and then I had kids and I had a really crummy point-and-shoot camera. And I thought, "You know what? I'm being way too picky about these pictures. I need to upgrade." And so I suddenly remembered all of the savings bonds that my grandparents had given me for each birthday when I was growing up. And I hopped online and I looked and they were all mature. And so I marched myself into my bank and cashed them in and bought my first digital SLR camera and started teaching myself how to use it. And that was about 11 years ago now.

[00:03:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. That's a such a great story.

[00:03:36] Helen Ransom: I love that my grandparents have such a part in it and I always bring that up to them on Grandparents' Day. And I'm like, "Hey, just to remember, shout out to my grandparents." And my grandma is the only one still around, but you know, I always give them a little shout out. I'm like, all those little savings bonds you gave me every year for my birthday when I was a kid, kind of propelled me into this career that I never would have dreamed I would have, and it's changing my family and it's changing other families when they have beautiful portraits. And it's just really special. I love that. They helped me get my start and that wasn't even the intention back when they gave me all those savings bonds.

[00:04:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. What a great story. So, okay, so you started to teach yourself how to do photography professionally, but what kind of let you, or what made you decide to take it from-- not that it was necessarily ever just a hobby--but you know, from more of a hobby to a professional career, essentially.

[00:04:38] Helen Ransom: You know, it, it wasn't really my intention. I have a background in radio. That's what I did. It was my big interest all through high school and college. And then my early days of, being married and out on my own, and then I had kids and I wasn't going back to work, and I got this great camera and started messing with it and teaching myself how to really do things well and actually use the camera in the mode it should be used in. And friends started noticing that I was doing pretty well and taking pretty great pictures of my own kids. And they started asking me if I would take pictures of their kids. And so, so when I had a year where I had three different families asking me, "Would you take pictures of my kids?" And one of those families said, "I'll even barter you for it. We have a big chest freezer sitting unused, and you have lots of kids. Would you like said chest freezer in exchange?" So that was basically my first paid gig was I did pictures and they gave me a chest freezer and I was like, "You know what, Nick?"--I talked to my husband-- I said, "Nick, I think maybe I need to look into this." And so he said, "Why don't you talk to your friend, Jennifer, who is a photographer and has been in business and see if she thinks you're ready?" And so we sat down and she said, "I think you're ready, Helen. And here's what you need to do to get started. "And.The rest is history. That was nine and a half years ago now.

[00:06:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. And so is there any particular niche that you feel is something that you absolutely love or are--I know from experienc-- you do a whole wide variety of things which I love, but is there one thing in particular that kind of captures your heart?

[00:06:32] Helen Ransom: You know, it's funny. I, so I go back and forth. Like if you had asked me two years ago, this question I would have said, "I just want the babies. Give me your babies." I want to do nothing but newborns and babies and the families that come along with them. And I am good. But then a year ago, I, I had moved into this new studio. I had a lot more space to do inside work, and another photographer kept encouraging me to branch out and add in headshots, but not just like your boring headshots, more fun headshots, as you experienced. And so I've been doing that for about a year and I get such a kick out of that too. Mostly because so many of the headshots I do are of women.

[00:07:26] And, you know, we women do not like to be photographed. We are not a fan of seeing ourselves up close in those ways. We are so self-critical. And so I get such a thrill now, now out of doing a headshot day and having woman after woman come in, and I can tell they're apprehensive, and I can tell they are not excited about this, but they feel like they have to do it. And then they look at their pictures, and they aren't even edited, cleaned up, you know, made the right brightness and contrast, and they get excited about seeing themselves. And that is so gratifying to me, and also to my hair and makeup artist. She loves it too, of seeing these women kind of transform in front of us and get so excited about a portrait of themselves. And so I would say I equally love now the headshots with these women and the babies. I still really love the babies. Keep giving me the baby.

[00:08:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And we'll share some contact information at the end, but definitely, if you're listening to this podcast and you haven't yet seen her photography, definitely go check it out because yeah, the baby photos are so adorable. I can't handle it.

[00:08:43] Helen Ransom: They kind of steal the show, honestly.

[00:08:46] Lindsey Dinneen: They do. They do. They're just so cute. And she's got all of these props and little accessories and all sorts of things to just make it so fun. And it's just the most precious thing ever. So do you still do, or have you done much wedding photography, or are you kind of more in the sort of, you know, family portraits and?

[00:09:07] Helen Ransom: You know, I have done, I have assisted at one wedding and I have photographed a second wedding. And I think you were even maybe at or in that second wedding, I don't remember. It was a long time ago.

[00:09:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:09:21]Helen Ransom: And yeah, and I loved the day of, because who doesn't love a wedding, I love a wedding, but it was really stressful because there is so much pressure to get it right. And what if my equipment fails or something goes wrong with my card? And then I am not going to lie. I was bored to death with the editing of the same faces for so many days, because you take a lot of pictures of the wedding. And after I did that, I said, "You know, I could've spent the same amount of time photographing eight to 10 different families, and then I'm at least editing other faces and it's probably gonna work out to about the same amount of money." I think, you know, weddings just are not for me. I'm going to let other photographers who rock at weddings continue to roc aet weddings, and I'm just not going to do those.

[00:10:18] Lindsey Dinneen: I think that is completely fair because you just found what you love and you stick to it. I mean, it's, that makes complete sense to me. So I'm just curious, are there any photographs that really just sort of stand out in your mind that you've taken that either have a story behind them, or just the moment just had something that really like--if you could pick a couple of favorites--what, what would that look like?

[00:10:46] Helen Ransom: So I have a couple of favorites that weren't necessarily a favorite to me, but I know now that they are a favorite to the family, because somebody in that portrait has passed on unexpectedly and knowing that that family treasures that photograph, because it is a beautiful memory of their loved one. It's life-giving to me to know that they have, that I was able to give them that. So that's a huge thing. And that has happened several times over these, you know, nine plus years in business. But then there's others. Like, so last year I started trying to branch out and get into photographic competitions, like really big deals where they're actually harshly judged, not the popularity contest, vote for my picture, who can get up the biggest social media presence. And it's been fun too. Last year when I entered, I just entered pictures I'd already taken of clients. This year when I entered, I put thought into some of my entries. Like I was like, what kind of story can I tell with these pictures? And, and because of COVID, all of the competitions got pushed. And so pictures that should have been judged a couple of months ago, they're still accepting entries right now in those contests.

[00:12:08] And, I won't know how they're judged until probably a month from now, but one of those pictures in particular, I really put some thought into and I am so excited to see how it does in judging. And even if it doesn't do well, I'm totally going to post that sucker because I think a lot of people are going to resonate with it, but I had a mom come in and I said, "We're going to make you look more tired than you usually are." Because most women, when they come in and do a picture, you want to look good. Right? That's the whole reason I have Kim here doing hair and makeup is to make us not look so tired and look like our best rested selves. And I said, "When you come in, we're going to do the opposite. We're going to enhance those dark circles. We're going to make your hair look a little greasy and messy because you haven't had time for a shower. We're going to let your toddler look like they are drawing on the walls in the studio." We're like, we're going to do some stuff here.

[00:13:11] The scene, I had a plant tipped over. I taped up white paper to the wall in the studio to run into the white walls already here so that her toddler could draw on the paper, but it looked like he was drawing on the walls. We had a dirty diaper balled up on the floor, and I planted mom on the floor next to her baby, just sitting there. And I gave her an empty coffee cup and I was like, "Just stare. Like stare into space. Like you were just exhausted. You have had the longest day. I am done." And I love the way that picture came out because it tells such a story. Now I feel like everybody's going to look at it and be like, "Oh, it's a portrait of a COVID mom. I took that picture before COVID but. Let's just be clear here. I feel like I need to keep saying, I took that picture like two weeks before COVID was a thing and shut everything down, but everybody thinks it's just a portrait of a COVID mom. That's fine. Whatever, but I love that picture and I am super excited about it. And I've been holding it until contests are judged before I put it out there. Just so that, it doesn't ever get back, 'cause you want it to be anonymous in judging, and I don't want it to somehow get back to judges who took it, but I'm really excited to share that picture later this year and let people see what it looks like.

[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Oh, how exciting. Well, I'm definitely rooting for you. That's that's really exciting. Of course, of course. So one of the things that has always been kind of challenging, I think, for artists who turn maybe what was a hobby into a career, sort of how to price that? Is that something that you've... how, how did you go about that? 'Cause I know that can be a challenge.

[00:15:00] Helen Ransom: It is a challenge because when I started out, I started out like I think a lot of artists do of I'm just passionate about this. This is fun for me. And I want people to have beautiful pictures and, and I'm going to price myself really low because everybody should have these beautiful things and I'm just passionate about it. And if I make a little money, it's a great perk. And I think a lot of us fall into that trap because it's easy to do because we do, we start out, and we're so passionate and excited. But then about four months in, I was working ridiculous hours trying to edit and turn pictures around for people. And it was routine for my husband to go to bed at 11 and say, "Are you going to bed?" And I'd say, "No, I have to get these galleries edited," and I'd be up until two or three in the morning. And he finally said to me, he said, "This can't continue like this. You, you have to fix something, 'cause we can't keep doing this." And I did the math and figured out that with all the hours I was putting in, I was making about $5 an hour.

[00:16:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh!

[00:16:06] Helen Ransom: And I thought, "Wow, I could be making more money at a fast food restaurant." And I wouldn't be working as much and I thought, "This isn't going to fly." And so I started just guessing and raising the prices a little bit. And then later, as I've progressed through the years and the career, I thought, "You know what? I invest a lot of my time into this." And yes, this is a gift that people love. They want this beautiful portrait of their family and their memories, or they want this, you know, amazing baby picture, or a fantastic headshot that's going to land them that next great job. But I also, I invest a lot of my time and energy and a lot of my resources into this. And this is more than just pushing the button. There's a lot more that happens here that the client's not here for, and I should be paid for that and I should be profitable. And it's a hard line to walk sometimes because we feel badly charging for a talent we have. When to the person, you know, the viewer, the recipient, whatever they feel like, you know, for what they saw, I didn't, it didn't take me that long. And I think they think that about, you know, dancers and people who paint or do pottery. Like they're just seeing the end product. They're not seeing all the blood, sweat, and tears and money that goes into it at the end.

[00:17:40] And so it's a battle. And I feel like in the last couple of years, I've really come into that of owning that this is my price and yes, different than other photographers, but I have a different cost of doing business. Maybe I've invested more time and money into developing my skills and maybe I just, I'm putting out a superior product. And I know that, and it's up to me to say, this is what I do, and this is why it's really excellent and fantastic, and why you should choose me. But I have to make peace with the fact that some people don't place the value of the same level as I do, and that's fine. They would rather spend their money on other things. And I have to make peace with that and be okay with it.

[00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And those clients are probably not your dream clients either. I mean, it probably goes both ways. Something that I've admired about you, getting to know you a little bit better, is that you are constantly learning. You're not just saying, "I got it all." Even the other day, you know, you posted something about how excited you were, you learned a different editing technique, and I thought, "You know what? That is so cool." You're not just complacent and say, "All right, I know everything."

[00:18:54] Helen Ransom: Yes!

[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: You know.

[00:18:55] Helen Ransom: No, I think it is really important to be constantly as artists, whatever genre you're in, trying to improve against your past self. It's really easy sometimes to get caught up in comparing ourselves to other artists in the same genre. And that's a dangerous place to be. I had to unfollow a whole lot of photographers for awhile on my social media channels, because I was getting too wrapped up in, their pictures are better than mine. They're doing more business than me. And a lot of times it's a lie anyway. But it's a lie we tell ourselves and we can get wrapped up in it. And so I had to be really good about that. And then focusing on "No, how can I better myself from where my pictures were or where my business was or what my plan was even six months ago, how can I make it better?" And so I'm constantly looking for ways that I can improve against my past self.

[00:19:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love that. Yeah, your only competition is yourself.

[00:19:56] Helen Ransom: Really! It should be that way.

[00:19:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Absolutely. Well, I'm also curious, how it was to transition from-- you know, you are still basically a one-woman show, with Kim, who's a fantastic makeup and hair artist, as well. But to go from sort of working just by yourself, in your home or out of your home, to now having a brick and mortar studio--how was that transition? 'Cause that's, that's a big step forward.

[00:20:25] Helen Ransom: It was a really big step forward. And so when I moved to having a studio, it was a much smaller space and it was a little bit sooner than I had originally anticipated doing, but a great space opened up and I knew I had to jump on it when I could. It was really fun. It's funny though, because I heard all these great stories about photographers, who say, "Oh, as soon as I moved into a brick and mortar studio, I had so much more business. I had so many more inquiries because they feel like you're a legit photographer." I didn't experience that at all, which was a big disappointment I had to get over quickly and realize, okay, just because I have a brick and mortar studio doesn't mean business is going to fall into my lap. I still need to hustle because kansas City has a ridiculous number of photographers for how many people are in this city. It is insane and having the studio was wasn't the magic solution for getting more business, but having the studio pre-COVID was really great at helping me draw more boundaries so that I could leave work at work.

[00:21:35] And I didn't have the constant temptation to edit late at night, or edit through dinner while Nick and the kids were eating, and I was somewhere else editing on a laptop, and it forced me to leave work at work. Now I'm struggling with do that again with COVID and I've pretty much moved all of my editing time back home, so that I can be home to monitor my kids now doing distance learning and all these things. And so it's a little bit harder again, and I'm having a hard time struggling with that balance. So I would say that's been one of the biggest things, though, of having the studio is forcing me to have that balance, and scheduling things the right way to keep that balance in check. It's a nice perk to have when I can utilize it the way I like to utilize it.

[00:22:21] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. What a great way to use the space too, as establishing boundaries for yourself and for your work. So that's just something that entrepreneurs across the board, whether they're artists or not, I feel like that's just a struggle of when to stop working because you've got to hustle, but at the same time, life is going to keep trickling by and you're going to miss it if you don't have those boundaries. So yeah.

[00:22:49] Helen Ransom: Exactly. It's, it's such a struggle. It's just hard because you feel like if I don't hustle, there's nobody else hustling for me.

[00:22:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:22:57] Helen Ransom: If I don't do it, it's not going to get done. And if I don't reply to this new inquiry, they might move on to somebody else. And so I've had to be really strict with myself about not answering emails on the weekends and not answering business texts at 10 o'clock at night. They can wait until the morning, but it's, it's a hard, fine line to walk.

[00:23:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely true. Oh my goodness. Yes. Okay. So are there any particular stories that stand out to you either through your own business or through observing other art that just really resonate, that kind of stick in your mind as this moment to remember?

[00:23:35] Helen Ransom: There are a couple of times I have had clients come in to look at their pictures and I do it in a really unique way. For regular portraits, where I print everything and I put them in mats and I put them all on one wall in my studio. And so when parents walk back through the door a week or 10 days after their session, they're greeted by a wall of their baby or their family or their high school senior, or, you know, it was just time for an update on their kids. And I have had several times, times where the session ends itself and kids are kids and they aren't behaving like perfect angels, which they shouldn't. It's fine. They're kids, they're small people. They can't handle it. And mom is convinced it was a terrible session and I got nothing. And then she walks in and sees this wall full of beautiful portraits and cries because she is so happy. And she is so in love with these pictures of her babies. And it's just, she will say, "You just...it's them. Like that is their expression. They're always like that. I can't believe you got that smile out of them." And I love when I have to hand a box of tissues to mom, because she is so elated, and in love with these portraits, it is the best part of my job. I love the shoot day, but yeah when I can watch that first reaction of a parent coming in and seeing that wall and being in awe, especially if they cry, I feel like I've done my job.

[00:25:15]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. What a funny way of articulating it. I totally, I'm onboard with you, but this is so funny. If I can make a client cry, I've done my job.

[00:25:24] Helen Ransom: Yeah, I've totally done my job! And it's great for one of those headshot session days that Kim and I did back last winter, and one of those women was, "Ahh, you know, it's just, I feel awkward and I don't love pictures of myself." And she was really thinking she was not going to like anything. And I think she was thinking in her head, "Helen, I'm not going to like any of these. We're going to look at them, but I'm going to make you go back out there and we're going to do some more." And we looked at, I think it was probably the fourth or fifth picture in, and she literally jumped up off the couch in excitement because she loves that picture of herself so much. I can make a woman do that. And women are so self-critical and we don't like pictures of ourselves. And I made her jump off the couch because she was excited about this picture. Again, I have done my job.

[00:26:18] Lindsey Dinneen: That is fantastic. Wow. Oh, my word, I love that so much. Well, you have a very particular way of capturing, like bringing out something that I think, especially as a woman, you don't even know about yourself necessarily, and then you have a way of just, coaxing it forward. And then all of a sudden the results, you think, "Wow. Where did that come from? Yes. I love this." Yeah. Yeah. That's really neat. So what's on the horizon for you? I mean, this is a strange time of life for everyone, but do you have any kind of big things coming up or anything like that

[00:26:57] Helen Ransom: I would say just the biggest thing that I'm, well, I mean, right now I am just trying to plug along and keep the business surviving this weird, weird year, because I still have clients who don't feel a hundred percent safe, coming out and doing a session even though every precaution is taken. I am wearing a mask the entire time, whether inside or outside and precautions are taken, but some people just aren't comfortable or they lost jobs or were furloughed for a while and they just don't have the money. And so right now I am a hundred percent focused on maintaining the business so that it survives and sees the post-COVID world. But post-COVID, I am already looking ahead about a year and a half from now. And the next Faces You Love dream is to be able to purchase a building, and have my studio in a very permanent place and not have to do this renting office space from somebody else. That, that's the ultimate dream. I would love to purchase a building. And so I'm starting to save so that I can hopefully make that happen in about a year and a half.

[00:28:04] Lindsey Dinneen: That's so cool. All right. I'm excited about that.

[00:28:08] Helen Ransom: It's kind of a big, scary, audacious dream, but nothing's going to happen if I don't dream big dreams. So I'm going to go for it.

[00:28:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. I love it. Oh, that's so exciting. Well, I will be eagerly watching that journey unfold. Oh, excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Well, I have three questions that I like to ask my guests. Is it okay if I go ahead, and dive in? Okay. Wonderful. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:41] Helen Ransom: I have learned over the years, having a sister who dances and having my mom who loves nature photography and myself, I prefer the people side of things. Art is a lot of things to me. And art is walking through the Plaza Art Fair and admiring all the different mediums. And art is watching my sister dance and seeing the way that storytelling can happen that way with no words and just movement. And art is the beauty of nature and the majesty of creation. And art is a smiling toddler, or a mom rubbing noses with her sweet baby. It's all art and it's beautiful. And to me it describes humanity and the world we're living in.

[00:29:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's beautiful. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:44] Helen Ransom: I think it's storytelling and it's trying to capture that moment, whatever that moment is. And, and the role of the artist is to tell that story the way they see it. And, you know, so for me, it was like that competition image that I've entered of the mom who was just done with the day and trying to capture that in a way that maybe people who, you know, if some men could see that be like, "Oh, that's why the dishes are still dirty when I come home, because she's done. She's done what she can to keep the kids alive." And I think the role of the artist is just to tell that story and to draw attention to things in the world.

[00:30:29] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive meaning that when the artists presents something to the world, they have a little bit of context. I mean, a title, it could be as simple as a title, or it could be program notes or some explanation of what the artist was sort of envisioning, versus exclusive being a little bit more, the artist creates something puts it out and doesn't really provide any context. So it's kind of more only up to the viewer to determine what they will with it. If that makes sense.

[00:31:10] Helen Ransom: Yes. And I will say for me personally, I enjoy viewing art and having even a tiny bit of context, even if it is just a title so that I can start to then use my own imagination to go with what they were looking for here. "Cause I think a title even can convey a lot and help draw the viewer down the path that you were hoping they would go. So I am a fan of inclusive, and having at least a tiny bit of context included.

[00:31:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious, so with your photography and granted--most of what you do is for the family so like a title wouldn't be needed--but when you are submitting to contests and things like that, do you provide, is that part of it, providing any context, or is it just, this stands alone on its own?

[00:32:04] Helen Ransom: So it's interesting. So there are two big photography competitions that I enter. And last year, both of them, you had to include your title and it was only a title. You were not supposed to provide another description other than just titling it. And this year, one of those competitions remove the title option and it kind of irritated me because I thought, "No, but my title really goes along with the portrait and I want it to help you understand, you know, that this is the direction I wanted you to go with it." The other competition still does want a title. And the title I've been told from judging is very, it's very important. How you title your image is important. So for those situations, yes, I do have to type it obviously for a family portrait. I don't title anything. They just get their picture.

[00:32:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Well, I was just curious because yeah, I mean, when it's for a private viewing, they know who they are. Right. But right. I was just thinking in context of like, if you were to do a gallery or something like that, you know? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Which actually brings up a question: in your building, would you have a gallery?

[00:33:21] Helen Ransom: I don't know! I might if I had enough room. I think it would be fun to have rotating gallery of local artists, having things hanging there, you know, and do different themes or, or whatever. Or if somebody had a whole set of things, I think that would be fun. It's it's an interesting thing to dream about, depending on the size of the building I can afford.

[00:33:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Exactly. Well, while we're dreaming big, we'll just make sure it's big enough for that.

[00:33:48] Helen Ransom: We might as well, really.

[00:33:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Well, Helen, first of all, thank you so very much for being here with me today. I really appreciate it, but I would love to know if there are good ways for our listeners to get in contact with you if they're interested in your photography or just to chat or whatever, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:34:07] Helen Ransom: So, yes, I would love that. So my website is facesyoulove.com. It's all spelled out. And then you can also search Faces You Love on Instagram and Facebook. So those are all great ways to get in touch with me. My studio is in South Kansas City, but I am happy to also travel to people's homes. And hey, while we're talking big, crazy dreams, I know there are destination wedding photographers. I would love to be a destination newborn photographer. I'm just gonna put that out there. I think that'd be amazing.

[00:34:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes! Oh, how cool would that be?

[00:34:42] Helen Ransom: I know! So, yeah. So those are your best ways is just to search Faces You Love and I'm it. So you're going to find me that way.

[00:34:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Excellent. Well, again, thank you so much for being here today and thank you also for giving your gift to the world. I think that when you do embrace something that you love and you make it your profession, or whether you just create for the sake of creating, I really believe that that makes the world a better, more beautiful place. So I want to thank you for sharing your art and, and for being here.

[00:35:21] Helen Ransom: Thank you so much for having me, Lindsey. I appreciate the opportunity.

[00:35:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And like I said, please definitely get in touch with Helen. At least peek at her photography. It is so incredible. Her, her newborn photos are my favorites, but she's a very versatile photographer and has a lot of great content and I know you're going to love looking through it. So definitely do that. Well, thank you again for listening. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:35:56] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Lantz McDonald! Lantz has dabbled in many different forms of art over the years, and shares about how art has been a constant in his life, regardless of the ups and downs. He discusses how abstract art, in particular, has spoken to him, and how one art form can inspire another. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Lantz, taken by him!)

Get in touch with Lantz's pick for his favorite local artist to support: https://oddesy9design.wixsite.com/bmiremadiart

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Episode 23 - Lantz McDonald

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:08] Krista: Artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have on my podcast today, my friend, Lantz McDonald. Lantz and I actually met through my husband. And gosh, now it's been probably--what--like six years, I think?

[00:00:53] Lantz McDonald: Yeah, somewhere around there.

[00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And so Lantz has his day job. And then he also has this fantastic, creative side to him too that comes out in all sorts of different artwork, and I am just so excited to have him on the show specifically, because I think that his particular take on art is really unique and special and his artwork is really cool. And so thank you so much, Lantz, for being here today.

[00:01:25] Lantz McDonald: Yeah. Thank you. That was, that was a really nice compliment. Thank you. Yeah, it's kinda surreal to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, of course. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about kind of what started your dabbling, so to speak, in art. 'Cause I know you've kind of done a little bit of a variety. So what kind of prompted you?

[00:01:47]Lantz McDonald: I mean really, I just think it's, it kind of built into my core maybe. I have had a really interesting relationship with art as a whole since I was a child that it's kind of been this, like this, for lack of a better term, like a best friend, that's just kind of been around when I, I need it. And, it's been kind of a rollercoaster of relationship too. I guess just to start, so just to, to give a premise for my experiences since childhood-- so, just a couple of years ago, I was diagnosed with autism. And, I didn't know, I'm 33 now. I didn't know for, you know, 30 plus years, that I was on the spectrum. And so as a child, I didn't really like music. I didn't really see the point in it. And I'm talking like, I dunno, like five, six plus years old. And, it had partially, it was partially to do with, you know, how what home I was raised in and the ideas around that. And, eventually, I kind of branched out and discovered that there was, you know, music outside of the small bubble, and really fell in love with it. And I wouldn't say that it was like the start of my creative side coming out, but it was definitely an important part.

[00:03:02] And, I guess from there I started drawing, took a bunch of different music classes over the years, nothing stuck. I'm terrible at instruments, just the worst. I did eventually learn to play drums and, after trying piano, violin, clarinet, guitar, bass, the triangle, probably--I don't know-- the drums actually clicked with me. And I played that for a few years, nothing serious or anything. And, for your listeners, I'm sure it'll be quite the pattern, but I just kind of dabbled in it. And, from there I, did some canvas painting for a couple years. I did some sculpting, I guess, a few years before that. I think as I'm learning about myself over my lifetime, I just like to accumulate skills and learn different things, as broad of a statement as that is. I just want to, you know, experience everything and art is a huge part of life. It's in so many different facets that I don't feel like most people even realize. So yeah, it's with me and art has been kind of an up and down thing, and I dive real hard when I dive, and sometimes I get back out of the water for a bit, but I'll be sure to dive in with something else again, too.

[00:04:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and thank you for sharing your story. I think that, yeah, it's so cool to hear how art can-- I actually love the way you put it-- it can be your best friend that comes along through life's ups and downs. And the great thing about art is that, I mean, you might judge it, but it doesn't judge you back.

[00:04:51] Lantz McDonald: Yes, exactly.

[00:04:53] Lindsey Dinneen: You know? And so just having that outlet for what you're feeling and what you're going through is awesome.

[00:04:59] Lantz McDonald: Absolutely.

[00:05:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I like it. Yeah. So at this point, so you mentioned music, and you've done painting, and you've done sculpture and things like that. Is there one of them that you feel was the best creative outlet, or do you feel like--like you've said you dabbled in so many, so is it sort of like what's needed in the moment?

[00:05:24] Lantz McDonald: That's a really good question. I think it's a yes to both. I think for your first question, I think the one that's maybe touched me the most was my drum kits. But the problem with that is when you're growing up in apartments, it's not exactly conducive to having happy neighbors. So, I do plan to eventually play drums again. I'm just kinda in the mix of some different stuff right now. It seems like I always am. But, but to your second question. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, life has a lot of ups and downs and there's definitely room for art in those ups and downs, but I guess for me more so, it's art has really made a connection with me and I've really tried to discover my creative side and the limits of that. And, and the sadder times, or the more angry times or, you know--a friend of mine who works with children told me there's no such thing as good and bad feelings. There's only comfortable feelings and uncomfortable feelings. So I guess in that context, I come to art almost as a reflex, I guess when the uncomfortable feelings come up.

[00:06:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. That's such a great way to think about it because it removes the judgment from it. It's simply, it is comfortable or it isn't comfortable. And yeah, that gives you a lot more permission to explore that without a judgment.

[00:06:59] Lantz McDonald: Exactly. It gives you freedom. And that, I mean, what isn't in relation to art than freedom?

[00:07:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Exactly. Awesome. Well, as far as your paintings go, I personally have gotten to see some and I think they're really cool, but is there any sort of theme that kind of has run through? 'Cause I remember there were a few that seemed like they were connected, you know, different artworks, but kind of maybe within the same general theme or landscape per se or whatever. Do you tend to work in like sets or is it just whatever strikes you?

[00:07:37] Lantz McDonald: It's definitely whatever strikes me. I have a hard leaning towards the abstracts with canvas painting. I guess I haven't practiced that much in a long time at realistic artwork in that regard. But, I do like the abstract, just because more of the, like, being able to, have somebody feel something. I think it's a lot easier to have that happen with something that is more abstract rather than something that is more focused and trying to tell you something specific. I think the more you're able to read into it yourself and make your own ideas about it and draw your own conclusions and feel your own feelings towards it. I think it allows people to have either a more enjoyable experience with art or, have a more meaningful experience with art.

[00:08:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Well, and we'll circle back to that because that, as you know, as a podcast listener, ties into one of my questions at the end. But, so when you go and experience art, do you particularly prefer to experience it for yourself without a whole lot of context? Do you like more abstract art personally?

[00:08:51] Lantz McDonald: I think visually I do prefer the abstracts, but outside of that, I don't really have a preference. I think it's definitely dependent on mood, and a million other factors for me personally. But, I think whatever someone's trying to say, whether they're letting you in with some notes or not, whether, you know, the title of the painting or if it's abstract or not. I think that's for the artist to decide. So I think I prefer just visually the feeling I get from looking at abstract art, but you can have just as much of a connection with something that, it tells you exactly what's going on.

[00:09:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, that makes complete sense. So are there any stories that stand out to you as far as having--either your own experience with creating art or seeing somebody else's art--that particularly stand out in your memory as being just something to hold on to?

[00:09:54]Lantz McDonald: Yeah. I guess with canvas painting again-- so just a bit of context, and to come back to what we were talking about earlier-- so I grew up in a very conservative home and we went to essentially a megachurch on a regular basis. And my dad was Minister of Music. My brother was very musically inclined. My mom sang in the choir. So, to comment on my complicated relationship with music, at the time I had no idea that there was other kinds of music. Like the radio existed, but it wasn't something that we turned on very often. And, so I just kind of assumed that this was a majority of what music had to provide. And even at a young age, I didn't feel like the music, and really the church as a whole, followed the same kind of beliefs that I had. So it really didn't have a huge impact on me. But then, you know, after discovering, you know, there's more out there, there's more of the world, I fell in love with music. And to tie that into my canvas painting, I had just decided one day that I just wanted to start. Like, I have friends who, painted and I had seen plenty of art throughout my life and, and I just kind of came to the conclusion that maybe I can try this. And, so I did. And, it didn't go well, from my perspective. I drew just a bunch of nonsense and painted just random shapes. And I was just kinda, I guess, trying to figure out what I did know myself and what I could do myself from a jumping off point.

[00:11:36]But, what really got me to open up, and at the time I was very emotionally clogged up, if you will. I had a lot of issues trying to reach my emotions, just trying to, over the years, keep them in. And yeah, the music was what kind of enabled me to start painting in the first place. 'Cause I tried a bunch of different things like meditation and nothing really seemed to let me express myself on the canvas. And, as soon as I put on some music that just kinda matched the mood that I was in, it was just like a light switch, and I just went off. And so most of my paintings are named after songs, because they are an album or an artist or a specific song that I was listening to while painting it. And it's what I feel as I'm experiencing that. So yeah, that's a really good memory for me. Just having this growth of a relationship with music and having it affect other facets of creative expression.

[00:12:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And I think that that's so interesting and so cool how one art form has inspired another one for you. And it was discovering that that kind of led to you being able to express your creativity through painting. But it was, you know, driven by another art form, which I think is really, really cool. Art begets art, you know, so to speak and...

[00:13:15] Lantz McDonald: Isn't that fantastic?

[00:13:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it's so fantastic! And I love the fact that your titles are named after those songs, and that's what inspires you. I think that's really, really cool. I love it. So, are there any pieces that you've created or painted or whatever that really stand out to you as being some of your favorites? I mean, how do you have this image of something that comes back to you where you go "I like that one. I'm really proud of that."

[00:13:43]Lantz McDonald: Yeah. And just to put it out there, I have verified with friends that it's not egotistical to hang around paintings in your house, but I did that, 'cause I just, I like them. I don't think I've painted something, from start to finish, outside of doodles and stuff that I really absolutely was just disgusted with or anything. Most of the stuff that I have hung up are pieces of mine. There is one, honestly-- at this moment, I can't remember what it's called or what I called it--but, there was one where, and I'm pretty sure you've seen it, has like a black background, and there's just these strings of different colors falling down and up on the canvas. And, at this moment, I can't remember what song it was that I listened to, but it's just, looking at it, it's it's one of my favorites. I really like contrast and that has definitely has a lot of contrast there.

[00:14:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I absolutely agree if you, if you like your own artwork, you should definitely display it and be proud of it. That's fantastic.

[00:14:52] Lantz McDonald: For anybody listening, you know, if you like something just, just like it, there's no reason to take other people into consideration.

[00:15:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Very true. And also the reality is I wouldn't have known that you painted if I didn't see them in your house, you know, I wouldn't have necessarily known that. And, and then I was able to ask you about it and discover a little bit more: where did that one come from? Or, or whatever. And so, yeah, it opens up good conversations, so, yes.

[00:15:25] Lantz McDonald: Yeah.

[00:15:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. So do you find yourself dabbling much these days? I know this is a very challenging time of life for probably everyone.

[00:15:39]Lantz McDonald: Everyone, of course. Not much at the moment. I don't know if you really call working on a house art, but I'm doing some more renovations right now, and taking care of my dog who's getting up there in age. I just listened to the episode with Kent Rader. And he, he's delightful, by the way. I'm so glad you had him on the show.

[00:16:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, me too.

[00:16:04]Lantz McDonald: But, something that's always been on the back burner, I guess in my brain, has been a stand up. And I have some notes and some just random thoughts written down, and that's, that's about as far as it's gone so far, but it's definitely something I'd like to look into once we're allowed to be within a few feet of each other and compact areas.

[00:16:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That would be amazing. Oh, I definitely think that that would be--you would be very good at that. I can tell.

[00:16:38] Lantz McDonald: Thank you. I don't have a singer's voice and it's not something I've ever really worked on, but I do like the different facets of art and the fact that it can be your voice or your hands or your feet, but I want to dive into something that has to do with spoken word or voice and see what I can learn from that.

[00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, yeah. And you mentioned earlier the fact that you are kind of a lifetime learner, you like to continue to develop your skills. And so, yeah, that's just another skillset that is really good, and I would think very difficult to develop just because it's not even just speaking, it's trying to make people laugh, which is all whole thing. It's all, it's an art form. It really is.

[00:17:27] Lantz McDonald: I do like to speak on Kent Rader again, I do like his methodical execution of it, though. I think it is something that can be maybe not scientifically quantified, but there is like an equation to it, I think. And it's something that you can continuously work on. So yeah, I will see, I'll get back to you in the future when we're all happy and healthy.

[00:17:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, I do have a couple of questions I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that.

[00:17:57] Lantz McDonald: Of course.

[00:17:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:18:06]Lantz McDonald: To me, I tried to break it down to the simplest terms that I can, 'cause I had thought about this a little bit before we started recording. I would say it's, to me it's an ambiguous expression. And some, some pieces of art are more or less ambiguous, but at the end of the day, you were trying to relay an emotion and there's nothing unambiguous about that. Yeah, I think it's just people trying to express themselves to other people. We all want to be heard and listened to. And this is just one more way to do that.

[00:18:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I like that. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:18:51]Lantz McDonald: I think honesty is probably the highest up there for me. I think that with a lot of art that is deemed not great or not good, it often has to do with the amount of honesty being portrayed. And if your sole focus is to just make a dollar or trying to, you know, slam an idea in somebody's face, it's not going to come off as well as if you're pulling from your heart and expressing yourself with honesty. There's, there's satire and stuff like that, but at its core, it still has an honest or a truth to it. And I think quality of art is very dependent on that truth-telling. So I'd say for anyone who's wanting to be an artist or who is an artist--let's face it, we all are at some extent-- just be honest with yourself and you will absolutely make something great.

[00:19:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, indeed you will. Okay. And then my final question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive. And it does sort of tie into something we were talking about earlier, but inclusive referring to somebody who creates their art and provides a little bit of context, whether that's a title or story or some background...

[00:20:17] Lantz McDonald: Yeah.

[00:20:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Versus exclusive referring to someone creating the artwork and just letting the viewer or the participant or whatever take from it, what they will. So they don't necessarily provide any context.

[00:20:30] Lantz McDonald: Yeah. I would say it is an even split for me, down the middle. I think choosing, 'cause it is a choice, it, that is a spectrum in and of itself. You still have to choose where on that spectrum you land as far as, you know, letting people in on what's going on or not. I think that is an important piece to the art itself to like choosing whether to give the whole story or even a part of it is part of what someone will experience when they experience your art. And, it's really up to the artist whether they want to let you in on more or not. And that kind of informs the piece itself.

[00:21:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Excellent. Well, thank you again so much, Lantz, for being here today. That was so much fun. Plus, you have so many great insights and I just love it. But I was wondering if there's any way for people to follow along with your journey or do you have any sort of public outlet yet? Or is it just sort of, for you right now and not necessarily for others?

[00:21:39]Lantz McDonald: I am not on social media, like not even a little bit, so I'm a little hard to find, but if I can plug one of my favorite local artists here in case. Her name is Behnaz Miremadi. I hope I'm pronouncing her last name right, but it's spelled a, B E H N A Z. And then her last name is M I R E M A D I and she is a wonderful artist. She does realism and abstract and actually I have one of her pieces hanging up right here. So you should go check her out.

[00:22:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes. Okay. Absolutely. We will, and we'll post a couple links to some of her work too. That's great. Well, I'm personally excited for the future for you. I'm very excited about the fact that you might do some standup comedy. I'm totally going to be there for that. But again, thank you so very much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. And I'm so glad that, yeah, that you've found, a great outlet for your art and that you're expressing it. And whether that's just for you and it's just going to continue to be for you in your house ,or whether you'll share it or whatever happens, I think it's still so valuable. And so thank you for creating. I think that's awesome.

[00:23:01] Lantz McDonald: Thank you. And thank you for doing this podcast. I've, I've learned so much about different people I never would have met. And that's really, that's a huge part of this podcast for me. That was the part that I really enjoy is we're not just learning about these people, we're getting to know them too. I don't know, I have a lot of great names that I've been looking into and looking at other people's work and it's, it's really fantastic. So thank you for making this podcast. It's, it's wonderful.

[00:23:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Yes. It's been my absolute pleasure to get to talk to so many cool people and learn about their journeys and hear their stories and yeah. I love it. All right. Well, thank you all also for listening. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:23:52] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Robyn Jamison! Robyn is a professional artist who is on a mission to share art with the world in a way that is understandable and relatable. She is in the process of writing a new book, "The Magic of Modern Art," and shares about her own artistic journey and what experiences led her to her life's mission. (Fun fact: the cover art of this episode is Robyn's own work, entitled "Red Robyn," which was originally a self-portrait painted in oil!)

Get in touch with Robyn Jamison: www.robynjamison.com | robyn@robynjamison.com | www.instagram.com/robyns.modern.art.magic

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Episode 22 - Robyn Jamison

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06]Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told, and my name is Lindsey and I am so excited to share with you today. I have a wonderful guest. Her name is Robyn Jamison. And she has a true heart for art and for expanding the reach of art to people who might not otherwise have participated in it. And she just has so many great insights to share. She's an artist herself. She has an amazing career. And thank you, Robyn, so much for being here today.

[00:01:04] Robyn Jameson: Lindsey, thank you. It's my pleasure, totally.

[00:01:08]Lindsey Dinneen: Wonderful. Well, if you don't mind, I'd love to start just by learning a little bit about you. Maybe your background, how you got into art and yeah, just a little bit more about you!

[00:01:19] Robyn Jameson: Thank you. Well, it really it's more like art got into me than I got into art. I've been an artist all my life. When other kids were playing with dolls and firetrucks and balls-- I mean, I did some of that--but mostly you'd find me huddled over the floor, painting or drawing and making things. So I've always, I've always known I was an artist or that I am an artist. And I was very, very fortunate in having parents who supported that, who supported my love of the arts. I dance, I play piano. I started as a little kid. I played violin, which I hated. So I played what I always wanted to play was the piano, but I demanded dancing lessons when I was three. And, in fact dancing and art and visual art were neck-and-neck in terms of what I love the best. And I realized that it was the most practical thing I've ever done as a young person was I realized that as a dancer, my career depended on other people. I mean, that's true of visual art as well, but I would have to be part of a, a dance company.

[00:02:38] Somebody would have to hire me, or I would have to start my own, and that after a certain age, I probably would be teaching, and I do love teaching, but with art, I knew that I could do it as long as I, my arms would move and my head had eyes to see. So I actually have continued to dance all my life, but I made my career as an artist. I did art so my parents gave me lots of extra art courses, as well as supporting me in going to art school when I was old enough to go to college. And then later I got my master's degree It was my parents really pushed me to get a degree in art education rather than just a straight visual art degree.

[00:03:26] And at the time I was not pleased about that, but looking back, it was really a gift in disguise, in that when you get a degree in art education, you have to take classes in every kind of art making: weaving, jewelry making, printmaking, everything, which I probably wouldn't have done. So it exposed me to different mediums and had me see what I really came out loving the best. And I've really always been a two-dimensional artist. My work is multimedia. I've done video and sculpture, included three-dimensional aspects to my work, but even when I've done sculpture, it's been pretty much frontal. In my twenties, I had a job. I went through the whole fear of being a starving artist thing that so many people go through and some people never get past, unfortunately. Until I did a really transformational program, but so I, I had a job as a recreation instructor for the city of Fort Worth. And so I had all kinds of classes to teach. I taught piano lessons for the elderly in groups, people who had always wanted to play piano and never had. I taught ceramics for the blind, square dancing for mentally disabled people. All kinds of art, oh, macrame.

[00:04:59]That's interesting as well as other of kinds of dancing. So, and of course, art classes too. And when I did the ceramic classes, they were molded, they were slips. It's called slipcast ceramics. You made, you have a mold and you pour this liquified clay in it. And it starts to dry and it hardens around the edges. And then you can pull the mold off and then you have this shape and you paint it. You paint it with glazes and I hated it. I just hated it. They were, it was, oh gosh, turkey Thanksgiving platters. And, you know, just cute things that were not in line with my taste, but you know this as an artist, I'm sure that when you're immersed in any medium, even if it's something that you didn't choose, you find a way to work with it.

[00:05:59] So after a while I started doing these slipcast pieces and then I would carve on them and, and I started doing these really fun whimsical things. Like they would have, I would do like a night sky with clouds and then carve in rainbows and hearts and all kinds of funny things like that. And people loved them. I created a business for myself of doing one-of-a-kind slip casts, ceramics, and I started making my own molds and I did that for 12 years. By the way, I did pins and earrings and stuff to have those little like parrots and hearts with wings and moons with each one had a different face and it was really fun. And then I got into more serious work with where I developed my own method of airbrushing underglazes and using wax to resist where the underglaze went, and then firing off the wax and doing it again, and then firing off the wax and doing it again.

[00:07:02] And I came out with these layered images. They were really more than being traditional ceramics, they were paintings on ceramic and it was really successful. I had them in galleries and they were by commission. I also did jewelry, like these big neck pieces, that multi-pieces of ceramic and big wall hanging things and, and really had a lot of fun with that. And a time came when I started having the itch to do something else and I had always wanted to get my master's degree. I had this-- in my family education was a high priority and I wanted to have the highest degree possible. Plus here's the thing. I was married to an art dealer and yeah, it was good. Yeah. It was really great. He sold all my work. I mean, it was really great in that respect. And we would go to art openings and meet artists and be around artists all the time.

[00:08:01] And at the time I was in Dallas and I started to notice that the people, some people we talked to were saying things about the art that went over my head. I knew they were --it wasn't baloney that they were saying, it was something valid, but I didn't quite grasp it. And I, and I started to ask people who spoke that way about their education, and just about every one of them had a master's degree in art. So I thought, "Yeah, well there's some gold there." You know, not only do I want to be as highly educated as I can in my field, but I also want whatever that is, that they were saying that I wasn't saying. And it is what happened. And when I went back to graduate school, I started out in sculpture because my whole portfolio at that point was ceramics and they wouldn't put me in the painting program. And then later I switched over to painting, which really painting and drawing, which again, it's two-dimensional. It's really what I'm best at and what I love the most to do. So I got my masters in fine art and I got what I was looking for in that respect.

[00:09:12] And while I was in graduate school, I also had the great luck to stumble into an environment that opened up the direction of my work in an unexpected way. And always before that, I was kind of all over the place. I hadn't chosen a direction, really. I could do anything. I could, I could paint all different styles. I could paint all different kinds of subject matter. Never, never really traditional, were more forward-thinking, but I hadn't really got my own thing going, and friends of mine owned a mannequin factory. And I thought that sounded really interesting. They agreed to let me come and look at their mannequins, to come visit their mannequin factory. They were very lifelike mannequins. They had facial expressions that had expressed mostly kind of somber. And they were kind of creepy in a really interesting way. And I, and I just became enamored of them. And I asked the people if I could come and do photographs, so I came more than one time and spent like a whole day lighting them different ways and putting it together different ways and taking photographs of these mannequins.

[00:10:36] And they became the basis for my work for quite a while. So I started doing mannequins and what fascinated me about the mannequins besides that they were so interesting visually, and also that I always have loved the human figure but I didn't want to just do figure drawings or figure paintings that weren't anything else. What fascinated me about them was that they reminded me of the fact that we tend to attribute human characteristics to things that aren't actually people, like to our pets and to dolls and to different inanimate objects, we'll go, "Oh, that looks like such a happy doll" or, "Oh, it looks so sad."

[00:11:17]And yet we tend to also objectify each other. This is a little bit of a heavy, heavy topic, but if you look at, for the longest time, we didn't operate in our world like people across the globe were the same as us. We would hear about starvation and not necessarily think of it like someone close to us. Like we wouldn't necessarily feel responsible for helping. And I think that's a function of objectifying people that are either different from us or far from us. And I wanted to talk about that in my artwork. So that's part of what I was doing with the mannequins, is pointing at that. And before I left graduate school, I did my graduate thesis of work and I actually used real women and portrayed them as if they were inanimate objects. I made them like mannequins and did a project. And I did a project where I had, there were four women, all of different ages, different heights and builds. And, I did a charcoal drawing that ended up encased in an aluminum frame that I made myself, to look encased, and they were black, all black and white, no color.

[00:12:43] And they were encased and they weren't. And they were sitting to represent that they weren't really empowered. And then I did a painting of each one and on the painting, the women, each woman was standing. And a portion of the interview I did with the woman was transcribed on the painting and there were four of them. And they were legible to different degrees. So I always provide the actual transcript and it was, and then the video took the interviews that I did and had them edited down into kind of bullets. Like "he always talked about me this way," and it was all about relationships. And, so then I made these a video of each woman. It was called "Women as Object."

[00:13:29] And then one more piece of it was actually a loan that I got from a man I know in Colorado. And he made this thing called a metaphaser. He's an inventor and he made this thing called a metaphaser and he let me use it in my show. So the metaphaser, or this thing on a stand, it looks like a a square box with mirrors and lights, and one person stands on one side of it, and another person stands on the other side of it, and the light starts flashing. And if the room is dark, you can see what you two would look like if you were combined. And what I did with it was I put a mannequin on one side, and then you could stand in front of it, line your face up with the mannequin face, and see what you would look like if you were a part mannequin.

[00:14:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That sounds so cool.

[00:14:22] Robyn Jameson: It was so fun. Yeah. And he made those for, celebrities. Ringo Starr has one. Cher has one, I believe. Yeah, they were, they were a thing.

[00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. I love the name too.

[00:14:39] Robyn Jameson: Yeah, science fiction name. The metaphaser.

[00:14:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. It's amazing.

[00:14:46] Robyn Jameson: Yeah. So, after I finished getting my master's degree, I moved shortly thereafter from Dallas to Austin. I've been working here ever since. My work has gotten more feminist. A lot of, I should say womanist. I think I liked that better because it's not about a movement. It's about having my work speak to women's concerns and also a lot of really personal work. And when I started, when I was doing my preparing when I was in graduate school, I started using actual text on my paintings and drawings and incorporating words in different ways. And I've continued to do that in most of my work. So that's it on my work.

[00:15:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. Well, you have had an amazing journey and gotten to do so many unique things with your art. Like you said, you've actually dabbled in so many different ones that your perspective is really unique and I think that's really incredible. And I think that gives you so much richness to draw from, because now you're kind of in a, a little bit of a different direction, it sounds like. And I would love to hear you share about the--well, I guess I know a little bit behind-the-scenes--but you're working on a book.

[00:16:08] Robyn Jameson: Yeah. Yes. I have a mission. Thank you for asking about that. I'm so excited about it. I didn't mention that, after I got out of undergraduate school, my first job was as a guard in a museum in a very progressive, modern art museum. And I would listen to what people were saying when they were visiting the museum. And so many people seemed frustrated. And they would say--I'm sure you've heard these things--"My five-year-old could do that. Or anybody could do that, that art." And clearly people were baffled, frustrated--not everyone. And I thought, "Wow, these are the people who are at the museum. These aren't the people who've given up already. And here's what they're saying. They are not loving it."

[00:17:02] And I would look at the same art that they were looking at and be completely awestruck, be thrilled and blown away. And, I could hardly believe my good fortune to be in that museum so much of the time. And I would go and see the same show day after day until it got changed. And even so, every single day was wonderful seeing it. And, I thought, "I have to do something about that." This is there's so much richness here and I know that that everyone can have access to it. I know it. And I started paying attention to other things. I would ask people questions like, "Well, what do you, how do you think art should be?" Or, "What is it about that that bothers you?" And what I could hear underneath people's comments was that they had ideas about what was art and what wasn't art, and what was good art and what wasn't good art. The ideas probably started in their childhood. And they just hadn't been exposed or educated beyond that. And we all know that when we're little kids, the school artists, the class artist is the kid who can draw the best. So of course we would think, "Oh, how I know art is good it that it's really well drawn."

[00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:18:23]Robyn Jameson: But if you look at, if you look at it, a lot of Picasso's work even, or, or the work now that's, doesn't even have a drawing a lot of times, of course you would think, "Well, that's ridiculous. How am I supposed to be, how am I supposed to appreciate that? It's not good drawing or didn't take a long time to make, or it doesn't have pretty colors." And we've developed our taste from--many, many of us at a really young age and haven't had the opportunity to develop it further.

[00:18:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:18:59] Robyn Jameson: So, I started writing a book, and the book is designed to open it up for everyone. And I tested it. I didn't test the book. Although I am testing the book on the person who's helping me write it, 'cause she's not an art person. It's fascinating. But back starting a long time ago, I started taking people on museum tours. I called it, modestly, Robyn, Robyn Jamison Art Tour. And I would take people, 10 people at a time. And, and I would put them in front of a piece of art. I would ask them to choose something that they immediately felt discomfort with, or they didn't like, like to especially pick a piece of work that did not draw them in at first.

[00:19:44] And then I just asked them to stay in front of it for awhile. I'd say, "I'm going to come back for you in 15 minutes and just stay here. You can think whatever you think, experience whatever you experience, you can move closer to the work and farther from the work. You can move around it, move to different sides, to see it from different angles, but stay with this piece of work." And what I came back, without even any direction, people said, "Wow. It's not the same anymore. When I really looked at it more, I found some things about it that were really interesting. And I noticed that I had some reactions in my body, and I noticed that it looked different, and I noticed it was different when I got close from when I got back. And I noticed that there were great big brush strokes. So I could imagine the artists moving his arm or, you know, really like a huge motion or whatever. I wanted to get really up close to it. And I could see all these details that I didn't see. And I noticed that I felt upset or I noticed that I felt happier. I noticed that."

[00:20:48]So people would start to actually have an experience. And that was where the gold was. And, people said, and then, you know, there was more to the tour. And I would ask people to notice certain things after a while, and to think about certain things. What if, and how about, but all questions, not answers and it didn't require any academic learning at all. None. You wouldn't have to understand color theory. You don't have to understand compositional theory. You don't have to understand art history, really. Art is delicious when it's purely experienced and yes, it's fun and valuable to know things about it if you like to do that. And I encourage it, but I know that it's not, it's not what gives you that amazing experience. And that's a lot of what my book is about. It's debunking beliefs that people have that get in the way. It's directing people in other directions and it's letting them know, letting people know that it's really for everyone, no matter how avant garde it is, no matter how weird it is, there's no reason why it shouldn't be accessible to you, to everyone.

[00:22:07]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And listeners of this podcast would especially, probably appreciate that because they know where I'm coming from as well, and just trying to share art with more people, because I think there is so much to art and I love your perspective of when you take more time with it, and when you have a little more even context sometimes, or, or just the guide, like you have been, it makes all the difference in the world to, you know, an experience that someone can have, especially if that's not their thing.

[00:22:40]Robyn Jameson: It's really true. And I like a really nontraditional approach. So when I took on writing the book, or it actually--I started a really long time ago and kept starting and stopping--but I also had a vision of speaking. Being a speaker for the difference that art makes and especially the part that, that people feel so locked out of. And why I'm so passionate about that is because it is a reflection of our culture. Yes, impressionism is beautiful. Yes, the old masters were awesome. I mean, what they did was incredible--such mastery and such expression. But today's art is today's art and nothing else is, and it gives you artists' perspective and artists' insight into what it's like to be alive right now. And so a few months ago, well, in May, I was in a conference called the "Conference for Global Transformation." And it was full of people who had a vision and were in action on realizing their vision. And I got in touch with the fact that I really wanted to do more than just write a book. So the book became part of what it takes from my mission, which is for everyone to have access to the art of our time and to be able to relate to it and appreciate it. And so I've been in action ever since every single day. And this is part of it to spread the word for people to, begin to open that up, open that door. I've been assembling a team, and I'm writing a song, and I'm going to be doing podcasts similar to what you're doing, and I'm traveling and speaking. That's my vision. So that, throughout the rest of my life will be devoted to having that happen.

[00:24:36]Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds amazing. Yeah. Well, and again, I love, I love your heart behind art and I love what you're trying to do with it. Do you have any specific stories that you particularly wanted to share today?

[00:24:50] Robyn Jameson: Hmm. Let's see. Oh yeah, here's one. Yes. I love this. And it really speaks to having freedom around art and not thinking that every single piece has to look the same to everyone or have a certain meaning. I was at a gallery and there was this little girl. She was about seven. And she was pointing at a, at a work of art and she said, " Mom, look, it's got a taco in it." Her mom was kind of going, "Shush." And the artist was there. It was an opening. The artist is there and she overheard it and she came up and she said, "Oh, you're right that there is a taco in it. I never saw that before. Thank you so much." Isn't that great? It's really parallel with my message that however it is for you is valid, even if you hate it, enjoy hating it, you know, what is it that you hate about it? Get into it, you know, give it some time, look and see what is it? What is that?

[00:25:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:25:53] Robyn Jameson: So one of the chapters in my book is about, this is a story about, you know, I've been calling all these people, some of whom I've known before. And some, I never knew just when I would get connected to them by odd ways, just like I was introduced to you. And I got this one guy on the phone, he's a filmmaker. And I was interested in having him get involved with this mission. And I was telling him about the benefits. So there's a chapter in the book about the benefits and it includes that it levels out your ... It's been proven that it evens out your heartbeat to spend time with art, that it, it levels your cortisol. It has cognitive benefits and your brain works better. Kids test smarter after just one visit to an art museum. They took 10,000 kids and did this test with them, and it was like a very high percentage tested higher just after one visit, and not right after either. They would wait a month. Anyway, so I was telling this guy about the benefits. He's a physicist and a filmmaker and entrepreneur, interesting guy. And I started telling him about the benefits and he goes, he started saying, "Yeah. I can just see it. Like you go to work and you go to work and you're talking to your colleague and your colleague says, 'Hey, I see you got a raise. How'd you do that?' And the person says, 'Oh, I've been going to the art museum over lunch.' Or, or 'I see that you got engaged.' 'Yes. I've been looking at modern art and I've gotten so much more relaxed. And my, the woman I had been pursuing now finally accepted my proposal.'" So he was actually seeing it in terms of how it would affect people in their everyday life. And it was so delightful. Isn't that great?

[00:27:42] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. I love it.

[00:27:44] Robyn Jameson: And it's, I mean, it sounds funny, but it really is true. It really is true that participating with art has an enormous impact on our wellbeing.

[00:27:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. That is amazing. So, yeah. Well, thank you again so much, Robyn, for sharing more about your experience with art and what you're kind of passionate about right now. And if it's okay with you, I do have a couple of questions. I always like to ask my guests.

[00:28:12] Robyn Jameson: Sure.

[00:28:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So the first is going to be, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:21] Robyn Jameson: Okay, well, I would say that I'm a little bit of an art snob. So I consider art anything that is created with the intention for it to be, for its only function to be, presented and appreciated. For me, art is music, poetry, literature, literature, dance, visual art, film. And for me, originality is important.

[00:28:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay! And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:28:58]Robyn Jameson: Well, the role of the artist is to create and to create authentically from the heart. I think the role of the artist also includes sharing what they've created.

[00:29:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. And then do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms a little bit with that. Yeah. So with inclusive, it's, the audience or the spectator essentially has a little bit of context to what the art is, whether it's a painting or whatever, they have a little bit behind it, either it could be something as simple as a title that's kind of helpful or, or it could be program notes or something like that. So the artists kind of invite somebody into their own interpretation per se. Versus exclusive meaning that the artists create something, shares it with the world, but it doesn't provide much or any context to it. So then it's completely kind of up to the audience to determine what they think.

[00:30:06] Robyn Jameson: Both. My preference is that people experience the art first. And then find out what the artist has to say about it or what the museum has to say about it, so that they really get their own experience first. And so that they're not looking to agree. You know, so that, like the artist says it's about this, so then when I, when I go and look at the art, then I think, "Well it's about that, instead of having it be really open-ended." So I really prefer for people to have their own experience first and then to see what the artist says about it. And even, even after seeing what the artist says about it or what the clues are to still not have it be like a quiz, like, "Oh, I got it right." Or "I didn't get it right." I really think that it's personal ultimately to each individual. I also don't want artists to be so like, so exclusive as you put it, that they won't share what they were up to.

[00:31:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Absolutely. Well you, again, so much, Robyn. And if people want to get in contact with you, continue with your journey of speaking and writing this book and your own artwork, is there a way that they can do that?

[00:31:27] Robyn Jameson: Oh, yes, absolutely. Feel free to email me at Robyn and I spell Robyn with a y, R O B Y N at Robyn, spelled the same, Jamison, J A M I S O N.com. So it's robyn@robynjamison.com, which robynjamison.com is also my website for my own artwork. And then I'm also on Instagram and I would love, love, love to hear from people, especially anyone who might want to get involved in the, in my mission for the world.

[00:32:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome.

[00:32:03] Robyn Jameson: And anyone who's interested in any further conversation is more than welcome to contact me. Thank you so much.

[00:32:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, of course. Well again, Robyn, thank you so much for sharing with us today, but thank you in general for creating art and thank you for sharing it. And especially now, I really love what your mission is and your desire to connect art with people 'cause you know how impactful it can be for everyone to engage in art. So thank you so much for what you're doing. I can't wait to read the book. I'm excited to be a small, little part.

[00:32:43] Robyn Jameson: You're a pretty big part. And thank you. I do want to also say, I must say that the title of the book is "The Magic of Modern Art." It's not out yet. It's going to be out next year.

[00:32:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, folks. So keep your eyes open for that, because you'll definitely want to grab a copy when it comes out. And, thank you to all of you who have listened to this episode, and we will catch you next time.

[00:33:11] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:33:20]Hey, Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you about Audible! As a podcast listener yourself, you already know how great it is to listen to something while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is. Audible has thousands of titles of audio books, as well as podcasts and other cool things. And they're offering a free audio book to Artfully Told listeners! When you sign up for a free trial membership, you'll have 30 days to decide if Audible is right for you. And you can cancel at any time without being charged and still keep your free audio book. Sign up for your free trial and audio book at www.audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Again, that's www. audibletrial.com/artfullytold. Thanks, Artfully Told listeners!

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In this episode, our host's husband interviews her! Lindsey shares about her experience as Artistic Director of a professional dance company, and all the highs, lows, joys, and laughter that has produced, plus all the things she's learned along the way about leadership, communication, and the importance of the arts. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Lindsey dancing!)

Get in touch with Lindsey Dinneen: www.lifebutbetter.org | www.facebook.com/lindseydinneenofficial | www.instagram.com/lindseydinneenofficial

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Episode 21 - Lindsey Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey, and the tails are turning a little bit in this episode. Actually, my husband is kind enough to join me on this role reversal, I suppose. What do you want to call it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he is actually going to be interviewing me. And, I guess I'll share some stories, but I will let Kevin take it away.

[00:00:59] Kevin Dinneen: Yes, thanks for joining me on my podcast show today. I appreciate you getting back to me so quickly on my invite.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes, yes.

[00:01:08]Kevin Dinneen: I do have to say it was kind of funny. She started the show with her countdown being-- and we're starting the show in five, six, seven, eight.

[00:01:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Like a true dancer.

[00:01:21]Kevin Dinneen: So I guess, I'm kind of wanting to know what it was like for you to transition from dancing under others' directions and others' choreography to starting your own professional dance company, and both choreographing and directing that, and also running it and booking gigs, booking performances, and booking appearances and things like that. And, I'm pretty sure like 99 times out of a hundred, everything went smoothly. So maybe you don't have very many stories, but maybe if you think real hard, you can think of a couple of...

[00:02:04] Lindsey Dinneen: I can maybe do that. Yeah. Well, it's live theater. So everything goes exactly as planned, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, oh my goodness. I, so thinking back to when I first had the opportunity to produce a show, it was the Kansas City Fringe Festival, and I met the director and she had asked me what my future plans were. She knew I was a dancer with another company at the time and I said, well, you know, eventually I think I want to own my own dance company, professional dance company, and take that on, directing and choreographing.

[00:02:42] And, and she said, "Well, why aren't you doing that now?" And I thought, "Well, because I'm too young, and I don't have any experience and no, that's not going to be a thing." And, and she gave me this incredible opportunity. She said, "You know, we have this open slot, and for a dance company in particular, and we'd love to have you." And I remember feeling so excited, and then so overwhelmed...

[00:03:09] Kevin Dinneen: And this slot happened to be at the ideal location, the best venue for dance in the Fringe Festival, the Kansas City Ballet's space.

[00:03:21] Lindsey Dinneen: It's gorgeous. Yeah. They have this incredible studio theater that's large and it has a great floor and the capabilities are just, it's just stunning. It's beautiful.

[00:03:33]Kevin Dinneen: Lighting and sound, the technical side of it is professional and legit.

[00:03:39] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm a little biased, but especially for a dance perspective, it is probably the best venue, for what I would have liked to do with it, I guess. So I have this incredible opportunity and I just remember feeling so kind of intimidated by it thinking, "Well, I don't have very much time to prepare." By that time, I only had a couple months and that would mean, you know, recruiting dancers and doing all the choreography, figuring out costumes, figuring literally everything out. I mean, I'd never done something like this before.

[00:04:13] Kevin Dinneen: And this was a full feature production, not just like, "Hey, can you do 10 minutes or something like that."

[00:04:22]Lindsey Dinneen: Or one piece. Right. And I only had a couple of months to prepare if I were going to say yes to it. And I remember talking to Kevin and he was so onboard. You were so onboard from the beginning, and I think he basically said, "You can't miss this opportunity." This is--yeah, you have to do this, you have to do it. And then he, and he, he also promised that he was going to be there for me every step of the way so if there was something I needed--backstage support or whatever--he would be there for me, which gave me the courage to say yes. And, just a quick little roast or whatever you want to say is now anytime where he's, you know, maybe not feeling as, as inspired as he was on day one to do some of the backstage things that have to happen, I can always be like, "I kind of started this because of you." Yeah. Kind of not fair, but I'm still gonna use it.

[00:05:17] Kevin Dinneen: She also said, "Hey, if you're agreeing to this, I promise you terrible hours and horrible pay. She's brought that up a bunch of times saying, "Hey, you knew what you were signing up for."

[00:05:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I did. I did. Yeah. I was, I was honest, at least you knew what you were getting into, but yeah.

[00:05:37]Yes. Okay. So. So here I am. I said yes to this opportunity. And I texted one of my friends that night and said, "Would you like to do this thing with me?" And, I soon had a small group of people. I think there were seven of us plus you in that first show.

[00:05:58] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Seven of us plus me.

[00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, sorry. Whoops. Okay. What I mean is...

[00:06:03] Kevin Dinneen: Also, terrible credit.

[00:06:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:06:08] Kevin Dinneen: She gives a terrible credit as well.

[00:06:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh no. Okay. All right. Let me caveat. We had seven professional dancers and we had Kevin. No. Okay. And then Kevin, and you'll have to listen to this episode, but Kevin joined us for one particular piece.

[00:06:27] Kevin Dinneen: Two pieces. I was in two pieces that show.

[00:06:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, you're right. Okay. So he was... all right... he's, you were the star of one of the pieces and then the second piece, he made a cameo appearance. So yes, it was in two pieces. Anywho so I, I started on this journey and I remember being just so intimidated thinking, "I have never done anything like this before on this scale." And I'm trying to create a professional production and I'm working with my peers, which is fabulous. But how do you direct your peers? I mean, how do you go from, we danced alongside each other in professional companies as peers to now, I am in a leadership role where I'm directing I'm, I'm, making corrections, I am setting the choreography, I'm making the decisions.

[00:07:22] And so all of that goes into this feeling of overwhelm and, and, "Oh my gosh, I don't even know if this is, if I can do this." And, so I had also decided that when I produced this first show, it didn't make sense to just do a solo show. I figured if I was going to do this, I might as well go ahead and just launch the company, which was a big endeavor in and of itself. So the company launched simultaneously, as we produced our first show at Fringe. And so that is what established VidaDance. And, you know, I hadn't had an example of working with a director who was working with his or her peers. I always had directors that, you know, had had their careers before.

[00:08:10] Kevin Dinneen: For years and years. They had all, all the directors that you worked under or for, they were established as the boss and I have years of proof why you should listen to me.

[00:08:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And, and that's completely legitimate. And I did not have that same experience in relation to, to my peers, in the dancers I was directing. So I just remember for a long time feeling very insecure and wondering, could I even do this and just trying to do my best and thinking, Okay. I've had wonderful opportunities to learn from all of the directors and choreographers that I've worked with. And I know what works well as far as motivating, and I know what doesn't work as well. And so I'll just try to combine all the good things I learned from those people over the years."

[00:09:06] Kevin Dinneen: If you could pick like, like two, what were the most important things that you kind of latched on to?

[00:09:17]Lindsey Dinneen: As good things for me to emulate?

[00:09:20]Kevin Dinneen: Or, yeah. What are the things that you just made a decision on, not having an example. If you could choose two things for someone in your position to do like you did, what two things would those be?

[00:09:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Can I cheat and say three?

[00:09:36] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:09:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:09:38] Kevin Dinneen: I'd like to amend my question, which two or three things?

[00:09:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, alright. So the first was to respect my dancers time. I was asking them to volunteer quite a bit of time, and so in rehearsal, I was dedicated from day one that only the essential people who had to be there at rehearsal were the ones called to rehearsal.

[00:10:03] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Because you didn't have, you didn't have a budget until you got paid for the, the actual event.

[00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Correct. And so I wanted to make sure that time was spent fairly and very productively. So I showed up every single time, knew exactly what I wanted to cover with a select group of people, and nobody else had to be there. So definitely respecting dancers' time was a huge, huge thing for me. Another thing was, at a professional level--and this is my opinion, and everyone can have something different--but I do not believe in asking dancers to work for free. They have already invested years and years of money and time and training. And at this point I would like to see them at a point where they're financially rewarded for their work. And so that was a big thing for me. And then, oh, my goodness. Now I'm going to forget my third.

[00:10:57] Kevin Dinneen: I'd like to amend my first amendment and say thank you for answering the two things that you would tell someone in your position.

[00:11:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Shoot. If it comes back to me all, I'll, I'll return to it. Yeah. So I just remember feeling insecure and feeling like, I just don't know if I can do a good job and just trying to do the very best I could and treat everyone with respect and care and we would just go and put a show on together and see what happened. And then leading up to the first performance. I wrote out my pre-show speech and rehearsed it so many times.

[00:11:37] Kevin Dinneen: So many times.

[00:11:39]Lindsey Dinneen: So many times, 'cause I wanted to explain the concept of the company, you know, because we were introducing ourselves essentially to the world. Right? We were, there it is, that was our world premiere as a professional company not just for that show. I just remember being backstage before the very first show and like shaking, right? I am shaking because I have to introduce the show, and I'm not a super confident public speaker. I don't hate it. Like I'll go and do it. But I wasn't thrilled about it. I just remember walking out and I had the mic, and the mic always helps me feel a little more relaxed for whatever reason.

[00:12:16]Kevin Dinneen: As opposed to the lapel mic, you wanted to hold it.

[00:12:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I wanted to hold it because that way I had something for my hands to do, but I just remembered, like, literally my legs shaking and I don't think it was noticeable. I don't know.

[00:12:28] Kevin Dinneen: It wasn't!

[00:12:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. That's good, but I remember feeling so unsteady on my feet like I will just fall over in a second. And then as soon as that was over and I guess I didn't botch it up too much, I saw a video later. It wasn't, it was, it was good. It was decent.

[00:12:42] Kevin Dinneen: It was fine. It was better than 90% of other ones that I've seen-- your first one was.

[00:12:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's sweet. So right from there, I was, and I do this to myself way too much-- I haven't learned my lesson on this whole thing-- but I switch gears immediately from director mode. As in, I have to introduce this concept and the show, to I am a dancer in the first place. Please don't do that. If there are any directors out there, it's a stupid idea. And I still don't learn my lesson. And in fact, the very last show I did, I did the same darn thing, but anyway, switched modes into dancer mode, because not only was I directing it, the show, but I, the first show I choreographed...all of it? Almost all of it?

[00:13:31]Kevin Dinneen: I remember you're, you're choreographing like every spare second. You had your headphones in and you're moving around the...

[00:13:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Living room

[00:13:44] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, living room.

[00:13:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, because that was where I choreographed. Still do. So, okay. So then I choreographed most of it, if not all of it. And then I was dancing in a lot of it and well, I I've continued to do that because for me, I absolutely love performing and it would be difficult for me to give that up, so I continued to do all three roles in our shows that we produce, which I absolutely love. But I just remember getting onto the stage that first time after switching modes and thinking, "Whew, that was weird." And, and trying to, like, turn my brain off from evaluating how I did in that speech, to I need to remember the choreography right now. I mean, right now is my time to perform and that was such an interesting dynamic for show number one. And then kind of after that, everything went smoothly and happily... no. So, okay. Was it the next year? I think it was the very next year that we had our Murphy's Law set of shows.

[00:14:46] Kevin Dinneen: It was for four nights of performances and something interesting happened every night.

[00:14:56] Lindsey Dinneen: The ones that stand out to me were, one night, one of the dancers was late to the show...

[00:15:06]Kevin Dinneen: Not just late. Late could be like five minutes, 10 minutes to call, right? To get there for prep.

[00:15:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, late would be... right. Like in a dancer's world, late, if you're late that's--you did not arrive before or at the call time, which is usually like what an hour? An hour and a half before performance time. An hour and a half.

[00:15:24] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, depending on the show.

[00:15:25] Lindsey Dinneen: That's true. That's true. Right. This dancer missed three numbers for basically about half the show because she had ended up switching cars to get to the theater, and realized about halfway to the theater that she had her costumes in the other car. So she had to completely retrace their steps. But anyway, so then as a result of that, we ended up on the spot having to--and things like that happen, like total grace, things like that happen-- but, the rest of us dancers had to figure out on the spot what we were going to do because she had a number of featured roles in the pieces that were at the beginning of the show.

[00:16:07] Kevin Dinneen: She had a long solo too, pretty close to the beginning.

[00:16:09] Lindsey Dinneen: She had a long solo. Yeah.

[00:16:11] Kevin Dinneen: Or pretty close to the beginning.

[00:16:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So we had to kind of figure out who is going to fill in her spots. And, you know, it's one of those things where, when it's that last minute, you just do your absolute best. And if it's not exactly what the choreography was, who cares? I just wanted to make sure that the stage wasn't blank. And I have to say, I'll circle back around to this, but I have never been prouder of that group of dancers than I was in that moment, because there was nobody who was complaining or saying, "What?! I can't believe, blah, blah, blah." I mean, 'cause these things happen, right? And instead everyone was immediately in, "Okay, this is a situation. How do we make it work?"

[00:16:54] Kevin Dinneen: Didn't like a couple of people were like, "Well, I can do this." And then you were just like...

[00:17:00] Lindsey Dinneen: They just took it on.

[00:17:01] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: They took full ownership.

[00:17:02] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And I did not realize that there was a change until she came on and I was like, "Hey! She's just, she's just now on there?"

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:17:17] Kevin Dinneen: Like, everyone rocked it.

[00:17:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. No, I mean, and I think, so we basically ended up divvying out her roles among three or four dancers, but it was so amazing to me, 'cause I remember one of my dancers saying, "Oh, I think I know that solo well enough. I'll, I'll go out and do it." And I was like, "Great." And then another said, "Oh, I can do her part for this particular piece." And she'd never done it. You know, nobody had ever rehearsed this stuff and they just rocked it. I mean, so proud and so thankful and so impressed with the caliber-- I mean, I know that these people are wonderful that I get to work with, but-- it was in that moment when I realized, wow, this is an amazing atmosphere here that people are just so--it doesn't matter what the situation-- they just dive right in and solve the problem. And I love that. And so then the next performance, one of the dancers got to the theater and realized she didn't have any of her shoes. So I think that was a pair of character shoes, pointe shoes, probably flat ballet shoes, jazz shoes, even.

[00:18:19] Kevin Dinneen: This is part of the story that I didn't even realize, I thought it was just one of her pairs of shoes.

[00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: No, all of them. And so she sent her husband back home to get the shoes and he brought them back. He wasn't gonna make it in time for the first few numbers. So the rest of us all rallied around, found spare shoes amongst all of, you know, the dancers and, and just made it work. And it worked. And then another night, it's our finale piece and it was this really fun, upbeat, jazz and tap kind of hybrid piece. And...

[00:18:52] Kevin Dinneen: We have video of this...

[00:18:56] Lindsey Dinneen: I think we'll probably release it...

[00:18:57] Kevin Dinneen: We need to maybe put a link in the show notes.

[00:19:01] Lindsey Dinneen: He might forgive us. It's okay. So one of my dancers is Joe. Awesome, awesome guy, and he has thankfully an amazing sense of humor, but, okay. So great upbeat song. He is like rearing to go. He's always super high energy...

[00:19:18] Kevin Dinneen: And his entrances are almost always like over-the-top high energy with a leap, with a turn.

[00:19:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Explosive. And I mean, he just rocks the stage when he comes out. So, so he's all eager beaver over there in the wings. And I see it, I see this out of the corner of my eye, and I realize that as he goes onto the stage, I realize that it's not his time. And he has literally entered the stage probably a good...

[00:19:55] Kevin Dinneen: 30 seconds...

[00:19:56] Lindsey Dinneen: 30 seconds before he's actually supposed to enter. And this was when he was actually going to be super in the way, because this particular piece had a lot of crossing back and forth. It was not conducive to the traffic flow. I did not realize until he made it on stage and then I was like, "Oh, no!" You know, like that's slow emotion, reaching for something kind of thing, and then realizing there's nothing you can do. So, so he sashays onto stage bright and cheerful, and realizes immediately that he's way too early. So he does like, he does like a u-turn and sashays towards the wings, but he knows as any good professional does that you can't just like enter, and exit, because then it'll be super obvious that you messed up. So instead he comes back to the wing, he's close to the curtain, and he does this very big grand gesture towards the dancers as if he's introducing them.

[00:20:53] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Like, like welcome to the show.

[00:20:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Right. With his arms, with the wide sweeping gesture, and he just stays there and waits, and it was amazing. And, oh, my word. So anyway, that was our Murphy's Law set of shows that we had. But you know what, again, I was so proud of our dancers because every time we had an issue, they were like on it immediately. But also that was the first year that we won Best of Venue for the Kansas City Fringe Festival. So it kind of proved to me that not only can we rally together, but that we rock it when we do. I mean, it, we really have such a close knit group of people. There, there is nothing like it, I'm so grateful for this group of people.

[00:21:40] Kevin Dinneen: So when you started your whole directing career, you were worried about certain things and you made certain things a certain way based on your experiences and what you wanted the experience for your dancers to be. I'd kinda like to know what things did you learn the hard way, because you made certain changes before you even started to what is the norm, or what you experienced, and what things--did you learn anything like, "Oh, I really didn't do that right." Or that, you know, as a director.

[00:22:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, one thing that I learned that I was surprised was, in the beginning, I used to do a lot of very general corrections when things weren't looking correct. I wouldn't call out anyone in particular. And, it was intentional at the time. It was, I felt a little bit bad--again, when you're working with your peers, and you're just not sure quite how that dynamic is going to go. I did very generalized corrections for a while and I think that, as a result, like on the other side of things, generalized questions are actually very frustrating because you don't know if the director's referring to you or somebody else or what's going on. And it's, it's actually very unhelpful. And so, so I did that thinking I was kind of protecting feelings and then it, as it turns out, it was actually--I'm diminishing the quality because people didn't know when they weren't correct, like when it applied to them versus when it didn't. So that was definitely something I learned was, it wasn't hurting people's feelings. People wanted to know. And that was, that was a huge thing for me is they were like, "No, tell me when I'm not doing it correctly. Tell me when I look different from other people. I want to do it with excellence." So I definitely remember learning that.

[00:23:35] Kevin Dinneen: Sort of a followup question, so what kind of things--you've talked about, when you first started directing--some of the things that you were worried about? So what things nowadays, what are we five years into it? Or a little more?

[00:23:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Almost. Yeah. We're about to kick off our sixth season.

[00:23:54] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. So, so how has, how has that shifted? What, what kind of things kind of get you uncomfortable these days?

[00:24:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, good question. I definitely am way more comfortable with public speaking, introducing the shows, talking about it. I would say that, I'm still hesitant when it comes to asking for donations or something like that. That still feels very kind of foreign to me. We became a nonprofit late last year and it-- I, I fully believe in what we're doing, but I will just say for me personally, this is kind of a new leap of faith to start fundraising and really start feeling comfortable with asking for money. So I would say that's a new area for me. I've always, I guess, tried to kind of make things happen on my own?

[00:24:44] Kevin Dinneen: Yes, you've bootstraped everything. Everything you've done has been, we'll put in as much as we can.

[00:24:54] Lindsey Dinneen: I am an expert at asking for specific kinds of donations. Money is difficult for me, but if I can ask for in -kind donations, I actually do a pretty good job on that, come to think of it. Yeah, so.

[00:25:06]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, just send an email, send the email.

[00:25:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Send the email. That's a whole 'nother conversation.

[00:25:13] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. That's a whole 'nother podcast special.

[00:25:19] Lindsey Dinneen: So. Yeah. So, so I think that's an area of growth for me. I've written a few grants before, actually for other companies, but I haven't really done much--again, kind of now we're in this, this space where we can start really pursuing grants that are available to nonprofits. So that will be another opportunity for growth, not something I've done a lot of and not something that I'm super familiar with the process.

[00:25:43]Kevin Dinneen: What about, like opening night? There were things that you used to worry about, and there are things that you still worry about. Are they the same things or have those things changed?

[00:25:54] Lindsey Dinneen: I think I still always have those opening night jitters. It just always, you just never know. You pour your heart and soul into a project and you believe in it. And when you're watching it in rehearsal, you think, yes, this could be something. But you don't really know until opening night, when you start hearing the audience.

[00:26:15]Kevin Dinneen: Five years in, do you have a better feel or is it the same level as when you started?

[00:26:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Good question. No, it is not the same. I felt when I launched the company, I was trying to do a very different concept than anything that Kansas City had seen, for a variety of reasons. One of the big ones was that we do variety style shows, in the sense that our dancers are hugely multitalented. They can do ballet, modern, jazz, tap...

[00:26:41]Kevin Dinneen: And you incorporate all of that into a show.

[00:26:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And I remember thinking, I don't think Kansas City is ready for this because it was so different. And so first show jitters were ridiculous because I thought, I am really putting myself out there by declaring who we're going to be, and it was so unique, that I was afraid that it would just be completely rejected, you know? Oh, that's stupid. Now, I mean, I know, so there's been a lot of proof that our concept not only works, but people love it. I mean, they look forward to it every year. They talk about how much joy it brings them and that's all I've ever wanted to do. So, it's not the same. I still get those like, "Oh, is this gonna work? Is it going to work?" Or, you know, are people gonna understand what this piece is about, but not to the same level.

[00:27:34] Kevin Dinneen: Well, and I think some of that probably comes with how different every show is that you do. You never do the same thing twice, and it's always completely original, right? So you go, you see one show, the next one is going to be completely different. So, I guess I could see how that would, if you're doing the same show year after year, it would make a lot more sense that you would just get comfortable.

[00:27:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, sure.

[00:28:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. People like this, but it's something new every time.

[00:28:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. You're absolutely right. There are new concepts every time. I don't repeat work, so yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point.

[00:28:08] Kevin Dinneen: I do also want to throw out a caveat here. Lindsey's never heard these questions.

[00:28:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, no, that is very true.

[00:28:14] Kevin Dinneen: We did not talk about this is ahead of time.

[00:28:17]Lindsey Dinneen: I guess I would say kind of along with that, just to give, some more perspective . So, backing up, you know, I just kind of talked about the fact that all I've ever wanted to do was bring joy through our performances and that is the heart and soul behind the company. But, besides having this variety of styles that we do consistently throughout our shows, the other thing that we do is, our whole point as a company is to make dance accessible to everyone, to people that have a background in dance and understand the difference between a pirouette and a foute to the people who absolutely have never gone to a performance before and probably didn't have any interest in doing so. And so we do that through a lot of ways, because I do think that dance can bring so much joy to people if they can appreciate it. And so we do a variety of styles so that, you know what, hey, if you're not in a classical ballet fan, you're not sitting through an hour of just classical ballet. You'll see tap, which is super fun, hard to dislike tap, and you'll see some jazz and you'll see some modern and, you know, you might even see some Irish Step or Bollywood.

[00:29:26]We're always exploring, you know, what, what can we do as a company? How can we grow? And, we're very passionate about making our storylines easy to understand so that, you know, you don't leave thinking well, I had no idea what that piece was about. The choreographers always write notes about what the piece is about or what inspired them for the programs. Oh, yes. For the programs. and so you always have a little bit of context. You can draw from it what you want, but at least you kind of know what the original intention was behind the artist's choice.

[00:29:59] Kevin Dinneen: A lot of your music is very relatable and, you know, matches the, the idea behind the piece very well.

[00:30:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. We don't do a lot of super abstract work. I don't even think we've really done anything that's very abstract. We're trying to find and share the beauty, light and joy that we experience when we dance with the world. And I dance because it inspires my soul. And I just want to share a little piece of that inspiration.

[00:30:31]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Okay. So a little behind-the-scenes question here.

[00:30:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:30:36] Kevin Dinneen: So I've noticed that your anxiety and your worrying and, and that sort of whole bundle of feelings tends to grow and grow and grow until we get to opening night. And then you're just like, you know, whatever, if something comes up, I'll take care of it. What is that? How do you do that?

[00:31:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Okay. So, yes.

[00:31:03]Kevin Dinneen: Did you always have that?

[00:31:04] Lindsey Dinneen: No. Nope. Nope. Nope. I had to learn that as a director, very early on, because if you get too much of control freakiness going on, then you will just-- you won't have a good time. There'll just be, like every little thing that happens will be the end of the world, when it isn't. And, so, you know, I had worked--both of, all of us--I mean, we had worked quadruple time trying to make everything work just in a couple months to launch an entire company and a new show. And we get up to the opening day and I just remember thinking, you know what? We have worked so hard and now there's nothing we can do. So there's no, no other things to fix. There's nothing else that can, can, you know, we can't work on anything else at this point. So we just need to--whatever is whatever happens, happens, and we just go along for the ride and... and to that point, you know, unless something goes crazy wrong in the sense of, "Oh gosh, that lift really didn't work. We need to fix it." something like that. I don't give notes in between the shows. I remember being on the receiving end of some of that. And it's actually very disheartening as a dancer, because you know, you're all trying your best, right? I mean, if you care and you're at a professional level--I think that means you care-- you're going to do your best. You're representing yourself, you're representing the choreographer, you're representing the company. Like you want to do your best.

[00:32:35] Kevin Dinneen: Do you think everyone who steps into a director role can do that? Or do you think that it's your dancers that allowed you to be able to do that?

[00:32:45]Lindsey Dinneen: That's a great question. I think that my dancers-- and I'm very biased-- but I think my dancers allowed me to be able to that. Oh, they have allowed me to be a better director, to grow as a director, to be a better director because they do care and, and I don't have to worry about them. I know that they're going to do their best. And if someone messes up, it's not because they are just like, "whatever." It's because life happens and you don't always make your fourth rotation on your pirouette, or, or whatever.

[00:33:18] Kevin Dinneen: I've always made my fourth rotation.

[00:33:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Have you? Okay. On the floor or? Okay. Yeah.

[00:33:26] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to just volunteer before-- I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

[00:33:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Boy. You know, the one thing I just want to say is I know what that third thing was! It's coming back. Okay. And it's this. It's really simple, but I think the number one thing you can do as a director or as anyone in leadership is to always show appreciation and gratitude for the people who come alongside you. I mean, I look back and think those seven people chose to work with someone that they had never, I had never set any choreography on them. I had never been in a leadership role with them. They didn't know what that was gonna look like. And they said yes, anyway. And, then every year the company has grown and grown and grown, and I will never be able to say, thank you enough to them. But there is no feeling in the world that matches what it feels like when I get to be on stage doing what I love the most with the people I love the most. And that feeling of "This came from nothing. And together, we have built this company that is now five years strong and we have done amazing things and we have brought joy to audiences." And there is nothing in my life that is more fulfilling than realizing the kind of impact that we have had and that we can have. And the magic that comes from a group of people who truly care, and then share that.

[00:35:15] Kevin Dinneen: And I do want to add that she left out social proof, winning Best Of at Fringe three out of five times. Big deal.

[00:35:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That was really amazing.

[00:35:29] Kevin Dinneen: All right. Okay. So if I were to task you with writing a definition of art, you can't look up Webster's or anything like that, how do you define art?

[00:35:41]Lindsey Dinneen: You're using my questions against me. Okay. okay. Art is an expression of creativity that shares someone's life experiences-- whether that's feelings or situation or dreams-- with the world.

[00:36:10]Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:36:12] Lindsey Dinneen: How about that?

[00:36:13] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah! What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:36:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So I believe the most important role of an artist is to share beauty, hope and joy with the world. And I realize that there are so many things that artists can express. And I love that. I love that art can tackle very difficult topics and open up conversations about things that need to be discussed. And I, I so admire that. I think that there's a place for that, but I think ultimately, opening up those conversations and dealing with those difficult topics can lead to hope and optimism that the world can be changed and that things can be improved. And whether that just starts with the one person who was inspired by that, or whether that spreads out through an audience that thinks, "Wow, I've never looked at it that way before. And I am empowered. I am empowered to make a change. " And I think it's so important that artists can take life and give it this gorgeous rich goodness.

[00:37:44]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. All right. So now, you've lived your full life. You've come to the end of your life, and you're given the opportunity, though, to make a decision on how to spend the last part of your life. You have the opportunity to experience a piece of art one more time. One piece-- whether that be watch a movie, watch a play, look at a visual art, listen to a piece of music--whatever, whatever that is, you get to experience a piece of art that you appreciate one more time. What is that one last time? What is that one piece of art?

[00:38:24]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's a tough question. I think, I think that I would like to see "Cracked!" one more time. And for context, that is the original production that VidaDance produced that premiered in 2019. And it is a Kansas City inspired "Nutcracker." And the reason that I would want to see that particular production is because it has so many people in it that I just deeply, deeply care about. And, they're doing what they love. They're sharing their art, and it's a production that we had the opportunity to spearhead from the very beginning. I mean, it wasn't even a concept without, without us creating it. And so I think that there's so much tied into how proud I am of that production. And at the same time, I would get to see some of my favorite people doing what they love the most, in an art form that I just absolutely adore. I think that would have to be when I pick.

[00:39:40]Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Shaped after your, your favorite city.

[00:39:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Shaped after my favorite city containing my favorite man! That'd be you.

[00:39:49]Kevin Dinneen: Alright. I'm honored. All right. Well, thanks, babe, for joining me on my special episode of your podcast. And, I hope you can make it back sometime.

[00:40:03] Lindsey Dinneen: I hope you can host again sometime! Well, thank you very much. And, thank you to all of you who listen. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to share it with someone you think might be inspired or touched by it as well. And we look forward to catching you next time.

[00:40:23] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Meghan Spencer! Meghan is the owner/photographer of Spencer Studios and an aerialist with Kansas City Aerial Arts. She shares some of her most memorable memories of encounters with art, and why they are the moments that matter most. Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Meghan, by Meghan! And BONUS: Here's a link to a blog post Meghan wrote on the creative process on a project that has been one of her most important artistic projects: https://kansascityaerialarts.com/masked-a-superhero-love-story-the-creative-process/. Enjoy!

Get in touch with Meghan Spencer: www.spencerstudiosphotography.com | https://www.facebook.com/SpencerStudiosPhotography | www.instagram.com/aerialist.meghan | www.instagram.com/spencerstudios | www.kansascityaerialarts.com

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

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Episode 20 - Meghan Spencer

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:16] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:24]Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today the absolutely lovely Meghan Spencer. She is an aerialist with Kansas City Aerial Arts as well as the owner and a photographer extraordinaire of Spencer Studios. And I just am so thankful that you're here with us today. Thank you, Meghan.

[00:01:02] Meghan Spencer: Thank you so much for having me. I'm, I'm super excited about getting to join you on your podcast.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay. Well, if you don't mind, I'd love if you just share a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your background, if that's okay.

[00:01:15] Meghan Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. So my full time job is I am a wedding and portrait photographer. That is the studio, Spencer Studios. And my last name is Spencer. So that's where that comes from. I get asked the question, "Who is Spencer?" very often. So, that's me. And, I primarily shoot weddings and boudoir, and in the last few years, I've kind of started picking up doing some business and branding stuff. I've also started shooting other artists in Kansas City. I had a, a light bulb moment that I can shoot and also interact with my other passion at the same time, which is pretty cool. So that's my, that's my full time gig. And then my side gig is I am an aerialist with Kansas City Aerial Arts, and I not only am a performer, but I also am a coach and a choreographer. And that side of it is also really exciting for me and something that brings me a lot of joy in my life.

[00:02:11] And in terms of kind of my longterm interactions with art, I started dancing when I was about four. Took that, that little tap class that all little dancers take with the shiny black shoes and the, I think my first costume was a yellow polka dot bikini if I remember, which is amazing and I love it. And then I danced pretty much my entire childhood. I was a part of a competitive dance company. And then when I got into high school, I never thought I'd be a professional performer. I just didn't think I was talented enough. And so I decided to quit dance. I could do the performance opportunities that were available to me in high school, and like the stuff that I knew I'd only really be able to do in high school. So I was in seven music ensembles and theater.

[00:03:05] I did band and choir and show choir and all the theater productions and all that stuff, which at the time just felt like doing a bunch of stuff I enjoyed, but in retrospect has really guided all those little things have really influenced my performance ability as an adult. And then after high school, I was in the marching band for four years in college. And then, after college I did one community play and then my, my artistic options kind of dried up. I got married. I, you know, living life and I, I didn't realize how much I had missed those performance opportunities until I had a friend that suggested I try aerial. And now I've been doing that for five and a half years and I'm performing again. And, so my life has pretty much been artistic for all of it in some way, shape or form.

[00:04:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure because I've had the opportunity to see too, but your dance background has significantly, I would say, given you a leg up, which--I probably shouldn't have said that pun, but anyway, here we are-- you know, for your aerial. I mean, do you think that that did help? I think you have a different approach than maybe somebody who doesn't have a dance background and, and comes into it, maybe from a gymnastics background or another kind of athletic background. I mean, do you think it gives you a different vibe?

[00:04:36] Meghan Spencer: Absolutely. I think both the dance background, as well as an acting background, both give me a really interesting perspective and I know that having a dance background means I don't ever have to think about my hands or my feet ever. I don't think about pointing my toes. I don't think about making my hands pretty. That's something that's really, really innate in how my body moves, which allows me the space to think about other things, which is really wonderful. And also the acting background has taught me a lot about building characters and how to communicate a lot of storytelling and emotions through the way that I'm moving my body. And I think those two things have really given me the opportunity to have a new way to express while also using all those tools that are like already in my toolbox.

[00:05:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So we'll circle back to aerial because I'm such a fan of aerialists. I, first of all, if you, as an audience member, have not seen aerial yet, please go and support a performance because aerialists are absolutely amazing athletes and artists. And I want to be one when I grow up, but, but, back to your photography. So was that something that you had dabbled in earlier and then decided, "Hey, you know, I, I really could have this as my career, as my full time job." I mean, how, how did that evolve?

[00:06:10] Meghan Spencer: So in high school, I always had a camera on me always. And point and shoots existed. The one that I have was huge, like, it didn't even fit in my purse, so I'd have to carry it separately. And I just had it on me all the time and all my friends knew that I would be the one taking all the pictures and be posting them to Facebook like the next day. So they could have access to them, and that was just like my persona in high school. I just carried my camera everywhere. And then after high school, the summer between my freshman and sophomore year of college, for a summer job, I worked with a family friend who was a photographer, and I did all the, the grunt work, right? Like I, the boring editing and setting the lights up before shoots and things like that. And one day I was driving home, listening to music, and I had this realization that I had a really awesome day doing all of the grunt work. And I was like, "Well, maybe if the boring part of this job is something that I enjoy, maybe this is the thing I should do, do for a living."

[00:07:18]And that was just, that was just the start of it. And by the end of that summer, that studio ended up shutting down for a handful of reasons. And, I was sitting in my bed one morning, being sad because the job I really liked didn't exist anymore. And I was like, "Well, I guess I'll just do it myself then." And I got up and I made a website which was ugly and terrible, and it just kind of went from there. And by the time, I mean, probably two years from then, I was, I was sure that I was going to be a professional photographer for a living. All my advisors in college knew that that was my track, and that was, that was just something--I was shooting in college-- I had technically had already opened my business and was like editing and delivering products out of my sorority house.

[00:08:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice.

[00:08:13] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. I remember walking a client's photos to try it out one day, 'cause I was like, well, they, they live in this other sorority house. So walking over like, so I was already starting to do that at that point. So it's always been the plan and it took some years of building it to a point where it's financially viable on its own, but it's just something that I've known I've wanted to do since that light bulb moment on my way home from work that one day.

[00:08:43]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And you, well, okay, so this year has been wonky for everyone. We had a conversation about that even before we started recording, but you're booked up. I mean, you are in general, you have weddings all the time, all sorts of photo shoots. So your business just seems to have grown and grown and grown. So congratulations, because that's a really big deal.

[00:09:07] Meghan Spencer: Thank you. Yeah, it is and I, I have a couple of photographers that I mentor not in any sort of formal capacity, but they, and they asked me about that, and talk to me about that, and really, I mean, I had the business technically open for, I think, eight years before I went full time. And it took a long time and I almost threw in the towel a couple of times because building something like that is something that just takes a lot of time, and a lot of practice and you make a lot of mistakes, some of which are financially costly. But I just kept, I just kept pushing and eventually all the things aligned. I moved to Kansas City where my business, and my business model, and who I am as a person just fit in this market really well. And I just worked and worked and worked and eventually, yeah, just got to a point where I was able to quit my part-time job. And I got pretty lucky that I had a job that I could, as my business grew, I could cut down my hours and then eventually I could, you know, jump ship and do it full-time. And I've been really lucky that that has worked out for me pretty well. And also, I, can't not comment on the fact that my, my spouse has been very, very supportive throughout this process. And he's the one that kept me from not throwing in the towel. So, I really would not have been able to do it without, without his support.

[00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's so important to have a great support system as an artist, your spouse, or, you know, your partner definitely is key. And then having a group of people who can help encourage you because it is tough. And yeah, there are definitely times when you want to throw in the towel and just go this isn't it or that, but yeah, I'm glad to hear that. Excellent. Well, I have a question, and this is just something that, you know, I've asked a couple people--it's, it's so difficult sometimes to put a price tag on art, I think. And it's important because what you do has a lot of value, obviously. And you've honed your craft for years, but sometimes still as an artist, it can be difficult to say, "Okay, well, it's worth X." How did you navigate that at the beginning? And maybe as you've grown as an entrepreneur, how has that evolved over time? Being able to sort of say, "Well, my products are great. Here's how I price it."

[00:11:48] Meghan Spencer: Well, I've been in business for 11 years and it still sucks. So, so it's gotten slightly better. It's still really hard.

[00:11:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:11:57] Meghan Spencer: When I started, I, I had, because I had worked for someone else in the industry that meant that I had a little bit of knowledge in terms of what the industry was supporting at the time, which allowed me to have kind of a baseline which is, which was useful. And then over time, I've just raised my prices or adjusted my, my packages. There was, my original packages for weddings didn't work. They just were not what people wanted and it just wasn't working for me. And so then I changed them. They used to have eight hours and I was consistently annoyed that I wasn't able to shoot more getting ready or more reception or whatever the thing was. And so I changed it and they all include nine now. So a lot of that has been trial and error, figuring out what people want, and what works well in terms of creating those packages. And, pricing wise, I just, I try and raise my prices every couple of years to, to account for inflation and to account for the fact that I'm continuously better at my job, because I'm doing it more. And that's hard. I've been saying I was going to raise my prices for, I think, three years. And then COVID hit and then I did it again.

[00:13:20] So, I'm under-priced. And I really should fix it, but it's, it's just part of that process of, even if you've done it for a long time, being confident enough in your work to say that you're worth X amount. And I also pay a lot attention to what's going on in the market. That is always been a really big, determining factor for me in terms of if the market kind of ranges from here to here, and this is the market average. I want to be just a little bit above that market average. And that, that really has helped kind of at least give me a ballpark of where I want to be.

[00:13:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense. So are there any particular memories or stories that kind of stand out to you as being particularly impactful or memorable about some interaction with art?

[00:14:13] Meghan Spencer: So, I know you were gonna ask this question. So I've been thinking about it like always, and honestly, I just have a lifetime of moments that stand out to me as super memorable and are thus because of art. I, in high school heading into my senior year, I, we had a girl who the previous year was a senior and was super popular and super fun and bubbly, and everybody loved her and she was diagnosed with cancer. And at that age, that was catastrophic for us and so for that year for show choir, our show choir director wrote--'cause he, he wrote all of our ballads every year and he wrote one for her--and the first time that we all sang it together, she came back and singing this gorgeous ballad with her there. And all of us, like it was, it was so emotional and pivotal. And she's okay. She beat it and everything's great. But, so like, you know, that, that moment.

[00:15:25] Or in, my sophomore year of high school, we went to London. And one day we were at the London National Art Museum. And I was just wandering, kind of by myself, 'cause I like to take my time in art museums and nothing was really catching my eye. And then I found this painting and there was something about it that I just couldn't take my eyes off it. And I sat in front of it for about a half an hour. And honestly, I've never been able to figure out what that painting is. 'Cause I wasn't smart enough to write it down and I can't find it. But I've never forgotten that moment. And it's been like 15 years. And I remember what it looks like and I just couldn't, there's something about it. And I don't even really know what it was, but I just couldn't take my eyes off it.

[00:16:15]And then even more recently, I, I created an act in 2018 for an aerial show. And it was the first time that someone had trusted me with something so important. I had a solo, and it was a really big emotional piece, and no one had ever trusted me with something that important before. And I created something that I'm really, really proud of. And then eight days later, I had a catastrophic injury and that power from that solo kind of carried me through that injury in some ways was a negative thing, because it was like, I did that. And am I ever going to be able to do it again? And the lid on that injury in my head was the day that I did that solo again, after I got hurt. And it was about a year later after I had my injury. And that moment where I realized that my body healed and my heart still had some healing to do, but that I was past it. That was a big emotional moment. So I feel like my interactions with art, because I have been so involved in art in all ways, since I was so little. It's just all these little moments that pretty much make up, you know, this timeline of my entire life.

[00:17:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and circling back to your, your injury. So I know that, that-- well, for context, for those who don't know, Kansas City Aerial Arts and my professional company, VidaDance, partnered together for several years now and on several different productions-- and so I've had the privilege of knowing Meghan for a couple of years now. And I remember that injury just being so devastating and, you know, you're working so hard to get back and, you know, each little step forward was celebrated, but it was hard and, and you were just such a champion through it all, but yeah, what was the process like of trying to come back after having been injured and not being able to do what you love and then, really having to build that strength up, I would imagine, again. What was that like?

[00:18:43] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. The, the injury was pretty catastrophic, both physically and emotionally. And I, it was rough. I was completely grounded for eight months, but that didn't keep me from being involved. And I knew the only way I was going to survive, it was to stay involved. If I knew that all my friends were at the studio making something cool and I was staying at home, that would be significantly worse than being there and not being able to get in the air because if I was there, at least I was with my friends and I still have a brain. I still have a creative mind and I can be useful. And I got very lucky that I'm a part of an organization that wanted to keep me involved. And I was in a show. I was in a show two months later, tap dancing with a very, very injured arm.

[00:19:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:19:39] Meghan Spencer: And like, I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not had a 13-year-old to tie my tap shoes and another adult to put me in my corset, like I needed so much help to be able to do that. And nobody batted an eye at helping me do that so I could still stay involved. And that was amazing. And then coming back was hard. I lost more strength than I realized I was going to. I knew that the around the injury was going to be a challenge, but I didn't realize that my entire body was going to have to essentially gain strength all over again, which has always been the hardest part about aerial for me. It took a lot and there are some, there are some rough days. The first day that I came back to condition and I was still grounded, but I was going to try and start working on strength for the rest of my body, was really hard.

[00:20:38] And I had a really rough day. And then after I was done, we had a company rehearsal. We're doing trust exercises, like trust falls and things like that. And that I couldn't participate in and I love that . So I just sat there in my puddle of like, "I'm weak and I can't do this, and now I'm sad." So there is a lot of that, but I also was so supported by my team, like, I wasn't alone one day for the first two weeks. I, every single day had somebody show up at my house and make sure I had lunch and talk to me for a couple of hours and make sure I was okay. And I remember, I was talking to a couple of our teenagers one day and I finally was able to lift my arm to 90 degrees.

[00:21:28] And you would have thought that I was doing backflips. They were so, so excited and so proud, which is, yeah, it was so sweet 'cause they're both contortionists. So like they're just like busy putting their head on their butt like it's no big deal. And they were so supportive and proud and not only in that moment was I thankful for having them in my life, but I was also thankful that I have an organization that was teaching those teenagers, like how to be good people. So, yeah, so I was, I was super supported and once I finally was back in the air, I was able to-- there was a role in the next show that was primarily a ground roll with a little bit of aerial in a way that we were able to kind of avoid the injury while I was still healing. And while it was still, you know, getting strength back and, and that was, yeah, that was probably the most important role I've ever played in my entire life.

[00:22:25]And it just, it all just worked out and it's, it's taken awhile to kind of get past it emotionally as well. And I still have a little bit of PTSD from the whole thing. I cannot watch bones break. I used to be able to watch it on TV, no big deal. Now I cannot, and injuries are harder for me to deal with, but it also has given me some space on the ground to learn how to coach. That's the time that I got to take, take time to learn how to coach and be a good coach. And now that's a really positive part of my experience with aerial is being able to coach. So yeah.

[00:23:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you touched on something really, really important that the community is vital and I've always appreciated, admired that about Kansas City Aerial Arts, but it's not the only arts organization that's like that of essentially building a family of people who are staunch supporters of each other, no matter what happens and you know, are going to be there through thick and thin. And, unfortunately not every organization is like that, but to find a community like that is, is special and worth holding on to.

[00:23:44] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. And we, we know that it's, that it's not normal, and I'm not really sure how we cultivated it. And that's the thing I think about a lot is, "How did we, how do we do it? How do we make this place?" 'Cause it wasn't always like this. and if I could, if I could bottle that, that would be amazing. Because there's a lot of arts, I mean--coming from a competitive dance world where it wasn't that supportive, and I don't have the same feelings of just like family that loves each other, no matter what, like that's just not how it was. And I still have, I still had a very positive experience, but it just wasn't that thing, because we were consistently competing against each other all the time for everything. And not even just the studios against each other, which those girls in the other studios, I still like went to school with. But also even within the, within the same studio. So it's, it hasn't been my art experience always because of the competition. And because in theater you still have to try out and you still have to audition against, you know, the other people that also want those roles. And even those, those elements exist in this company somehow it has maintained its ability to be a hundred percent supportive, a hundred percent of the time. And if I could make all of the arts feel the way that this feels, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[00:25:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's, it is special. It is very special. So I'm just curious, do any stories stand out to you as being particularly funny? Like, do you have any, you know, backstage moments, stories, or even onstage moments where something happened that you were like, "Hmm, that wasn't intentional."

[00:25:40] Meghan Spencer: My freshman year of high school, I was in "West Side Story," and this was my first, it wasn't like a big role, but it was my first like really big acting experience. And I love "West Side Story," 'cause it was a dance show and it was a love show. And I played the youngest girl in our little group and I was dating the youngest boy in our little group. And he was actually a year younger than me in real life, and it's so funny 'cause now he's much taller, since he's grown up, but we had a little dance moment in the dance scene and we, he did like a cheek to cheek thing. And on opening night, my then-boyfriend, now-husband was sitting in the front row, because he's so sweet and we, something happened where like we missed our cheek to cheek moment, like just a weird split second. And what ended up happening was my lipstick then got smeared all over the side of my face and his face. Hardcore looked like we've been making out.

[00:26:54] And I was 16. And when I got off stage and like saw my face, I was mortified because I was like, "Oh my gosh, my new boyfriend!" And, oh my gosh, and he didn't even notice. And now, now it's just funny, yeah, that, and I think like I have a lot of just like great backstage memories of theater in high school. My, my best friend and I called it the "Blue Light Chronicles," because for those of you that don't know, you use blue lights backstage because it helps you see, but that light doesn't travel into the audience. And so like we still, to this day, we'll like talk about "Blue Light Chronicles" of like all the random stuff that happened backstage in high school and theater. And that stuff is really entertaining, especially since most of those people have now grown up and like have children of their own. It's very entertaining.

[00:27:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome, and I love that title. I feel like you two should write a book and get contributors, you know, of these stories that are just so memorable, because I love the fact that, as an audience member, you get to see the final product and you don't necessarily even realize the hours and hours that go into it. But for those on the opposite side-- I joke a lot because people say, "Oh, it's such a glamorous job." I'm like, I mean, I mean, it is glamorous in some senses, but, but there's a lot that goes into it. But you know, it's just funny and sweat and tears and all the things.

[00:28:34] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. And that's what for me, I think that part about it is one of my favorite parts. Like every single time we get into tech week, and I'm like, "Oh my God, it's tech week. It's going to be exhausting." And the last time my husband was like, "Shut up. You love it." Like, because I do like late nights at the theater where, like, all my favorite people are stuck, hanging out with me for extended periods of time, like in the same space, is my favorite. Yeah, it's exhausting, but it's also so, so fun. And when you're that tired, it's the silliest things happen. Yeah, that's like my favorite part about it. Obviously I love the performances themselves, but also the experience of putting it on and all the things that happen backstage and all the things that have to go right to make it happen. And, I, that stuff I'm super into it.

[00:29:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. It makes the experience very well-rounded and incredibly meaningful. No, I agree. I love, I love tech week. I love performing and, and it just makes it all so great. Well, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.

[00:29:54] Meghan Spencer: Of course.

[00:29:55] Lindsey Dinneen: So the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:30:02]Meghan Spencer: I think art is communicating to the outside world a feeling emotion or something else you want to say, because it can be tangible. It can be movement. It can be makeup. It can be--there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways that art can take forms, but it's always about communicating something.

[00:30:35]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:30:40] Meghan Spencer: I think creation, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot, actually in the last, in the last year. And even in the last six months as we've been dealing with all, all the crazy that is 2020. I think for me, especially, but I think for artists in general, creation is the part that matters. And we have this like funny joke at our studio of saying, "Well, that's a choice." And normally it means like you're doing something silly or weird or whatever. But at its core, it really means that as an artist, your choices are all that matter. And I can have an opinion about your choices, but at the end of the day, they're your choices to make. And making those choices of how you want to make the art that you're making is on you, and whether or not other people like it or agree with it, or even understand it, doesn't really matter.

[00:31:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Excellent. And then, and I'll define my terms a little bit here, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by those terms I'm referring to a, with inclusive, an artist is sort of inviting you into the process, whether that's giving you a backstory or program notes, a title. It doesn't have to be extensive. Just something to give the viewer or participant a little more context to what they've created as an artist. Versus exclusive referring more to someone who presents their art to the world, but there's not necessarily any context or explanation behind it. So, it's more for the viewer to take from it what they will.

[00:32:40] Meghan Spencer: I think that interestingly enough, this ties right back to your last question, that that is just one more choice that an artist gets to make. And whether or not the information that's given can be part of the art because if someone doesn't want you to have any information and just wants you to experience the thing in whatever form it is, then that's part of it too. I think one of my biggest frustrations in life has been someone asking me to describe what an artist is thinking. And this happens a lot, especially in like literary forms. But I don't, I don't think that's my job. I think my job is to experience the thing and then I get to have my own opinions on it.

[00:33:32] And if that experience includes some sort of information to help guide my experience, then that's great. But if the artist doesn't want to include that, then they don't have to. and like we're working on a show-- well, we were supposed to perform this show in April and it got postponed to next April-- but it's--our aerial shows, as with most traditional dance shows--there's no speaking. And this show in particular had a more complicated storyline than we've ever done before. So we used voiceovers so that the audience has an experience where they understand what's going on. And we could have chosen to not help them understand, but in this, in this instance, we made the choice to help them understand what was happening in that way.

[00:34:22]But also, I think some artists enjoy their art to stand alone, and something we tell our students when they're creating acts and building pieces is that they have to make choices. They don't have to be choices that the audience understands. Your audience member--in terms of the way that we normally perform, where we just, you know, set up our rig and get in the air and do the thing and people are there and we never interact with them in any way-- they are not probably going to know the story you're telling, because all they have is your performance and your music. And sometimes those things are just not enough to tell your story, but if you have a story in your heart and in your head, they're going to feel something. And they may not even feel what you feel, but they're going to feel something.

[00:35:14] And that's the thing that matters the most, I think, is to create something that as, as I said before, communicates, and most of the time, especially with the art, I'm making a lot of it has to do with emotion. With my wedding photography, I take it really seriously because I have one photo from my grandparents' wedding. And I was raised with my mom and my grandparents. So my grandparents were like extra, extra close to me growing up. And I only have one photo. It's on my wall in my hallway because that's the start of, you know, my family. And I think that those moments, they matter. And being able to share those moments, you know, with each other, for the rest of your life.

[00:36:08] That's always, my goal is to create imagery that my clients want to hang on the walls for the rest of their life, so that when they're having a tough day in their marriage, which happens in all, all of our marriages, they can look up at the wall and they can see those photos. And remember why they started the thing in the first place. And so even in that commercial side of art, I'm still hoping to create emotions that carry with them through their entire marriage and then honestly, probably into the lives of their children and grandchildren. And so I think for me, it's about making people feel something. And if giving information makes them feel more, than great. But it's not like I like describe what's happening in my wedding photos. Right? Like you can, you can see those moments. And for me, that's enough.

[00:37:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Great answer. And I love your insight into your own, the way that you want to communicate to other people. But I love that perspective. That's, I've not heard it yet spoken quite like that. So that was gorgeous.

[00:37:23]Meghan Spencer: Thanks!

[00:37:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, well again, Megan, thank you so very much for joining us today. I so appreciate it. And I just want to say on behalf of myself and our audience, but also, the world as a whole, thank you for sharing art, because I really do believe in the power that art has to make the world a better, more beautiful, more inclusive place. And I think that when you give and provide that, it's really special. So I want to thank you personally for bringing so many different kinds of art to the world. I think that's wonderful.

[00:38:02] Meghan Spencer: Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, but the thing too is that it's not only benefiting those around you, but it benefits, you know, you as a person too. So all of that, all of that art in my life has definitely positively influenced my life as well.

[00:38:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And if people want to get in touch with you, either for your photography business, or maybe try to come see a show or something like that, is there a way for them to connect?

[00:38:31] Meghan Spencer: Yeah. So for photography, my business is Spencer Studios. You can follow me on Facebook or Instagram. On Instagram, my handle is @spencerstudios. And my website is www.spencerstudiosphotography.com. And then for aerial, if you would like to book an aerial performance, you can check out KansasCityAerialArts.com. And if you want to interact with me, then the best place to do that is probably on Instagram. And my handle is aerialist.meghan, spelled M E G H A N.

[00:39:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you again, Meghan, so very much for joining us. I loved your insights and your stories, and completely agree with you that capturing the moments that matter is really important. And I love the way that you said all of that. So thank you one more time for you being here, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:39:42] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Kent Rader! Kent is known as the World's Cleanest Comedian, and he is also a motivational speaker and author of the book, "Let It Go, Just Let It Go" about how to deal with stress. From his background of accounting to his professional speaking career and everything in between, Kent shares what fires him up about the arts.

Get in touch with Kent Rader: www.kentraderspeaks.com | https://www.facebook.com/Kent-Rader-130340647028349 | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT77fL6ZiPfx7lyCLAmDgog

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Episode 19 - Kent Rader

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:24] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today the absolutely wonderful Kent Rader, and Kent is the world's cleanest comedian. He is also a motivational speaker, a accountant, and so much more. And Kent, thank you so much for being here. I am just delighted that you are here with us.

[00:01:02] Kent Rader: Well, thank you for having me, Lindsay. I've missed talking to you.

[00:01:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I know!

[00:01:08] Kent Rader: I'm not a very good accountant. Okay. We probably ouught to clarify that, but yeah.

[00:01:17]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I'm sure this will come out a little bit more in your story because this is one of the things that I think is so great about just how you have changed careers and kind of developed into who you are today and all of that. But, Kent, do you mind just sharing a little bit about your background?

[00:01:34] Kent Rader: Yeah, not at all. I went to William Jewell College in Liberty, Missouri and graduated, went into accounting 'cause that was, you know, I needed a job and did it for 17 years and I was, I just, you know, it was a job and that's all it was. And, but I was fortunate. I went, I went back into public accounting at a time when home care agencies were really changing their payment mechanism for Medicare and they needed to know how to do a budget, needed to know how to read a financial statement. And so I was asked by all these home care associations around the country to do programs on it.

[00:02:09] And it was so dry. I mean, talking about double entry accounting and how it flows into it. And so I started telling stories and the audiences laughed and I thought, I just love that. And so, we got to a point to where I knew I was going to have to do something different. And I told my wife, I was on the verge of becoming a partner in the accounting firm, and I was offered it one day and I came home and I said to Twyla--my wife Twyla--I said, "I just don't want it." And she said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "I want to be a speaker." And she said, "Then be a speaker." And I said, "You know, we may be passing up a fortune and I'll never, and it's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me."

[00:02:49] She said, "Your happiness is more important than all the money you'll ever make. So I started being a speaker and I was teaching, I did some financial programs, but then I really had an interest in health. I'd run my entire life and I had a lot of interest in stress. And so I developed a program on how to reduce stress and wrote a book called, "Let It Go, Just Let It Go" on reducing stress, but then it really evolved into how humor helps us reduce stress. And I thought, "Well, I want to get more funny." So I started going to an open mic night to comedy clubs, which was, that was the extent, Lindsey, of, of my idea was "Okay, I'll do open mic nights and learn how to write and learn how to be funnier." And, it takes years to do that.

[00:03:34] And so by the time I finally thought had a handle on it. I'm headlining clubs and I started working in theaters, just doing standup. And so my career really evolved into 50/50 speaking at conferences, mostly for healthcare and education associations, and the other half doing live shows of just stand-up comedy in theaters. And because I worked clean, I could take all the material from my standup and move it right into speaking. It was appropriate, and it's been a long... as the Grateful Dead said, a long, strange trip. So.

[00:04:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I would love to touch on something because you do talk a lot about the fact that you are the world's cleanest comedian. And so what does that mean to you? I'm sure there's an intention behind it. So do you mind just sharing sort of what got you to that point?

[00:04:27] Kent Rader: Not at all. And my original thought was I needed to be clean because the material I was writing I wanted to move into the speaking and you had to be super clean to be, you have to be super clean to be a speaker, but quite by accident I realized that you'd never really find what's truly funny unless you work clean. And, and Chris Rock, who I've known for a long time, he came up to me two or three years ago. And he said, "You know, I talk about you and Vic Henley"--who unfortunately just passed away this year--he said, "because I tell people, work on the material and make it clean. 'Cause you don't know what's truly funny unless it's clean and then you can dirty it up later if you want to."

[00:05:05] Well, I've never really wanted to dirty it up, so I just kept it clean. I have nothing against profanity, as you know, from being my friend, I swear like a sailor when we're not in a different venue, but I don't want profanity to be the punchline, you know? And that, that's the thing that people don't understand about Dave Chappelle or Carlin. You could have taken out every profane word and the material was still funny. And too many comedians today think, "Oh, all I have to do is swear or talk about sex on stage. And, and it'll be funny." I mean, yeah, you'll get a laugh, but it isn't truly funny. You know, if you take all that out, what do you have? You still have to, in my opinion, you still have to have some content.

[00:05:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I love that because like you said, that's made your stories very easily transferable to many different opportunities that you've had to speak and things. So it's not like you have to reinvent the wheel every time, you know?

[00:06:01] Kent Rader: Right. And we talk about, about artists--too many comedians have-- and I think we've talked about this personally--too many comedians have a... they have a mindset of poverty. You know, I, I can't make a lot of money or I'm not an artist and that's just not true. You have to find a venue where you can make a better wage or living wage, if you will. You don't have to live with poverty to do it. And so one of the ways that you can do it in comedy is to be clean because people will pay higher ticket prices to come see a clean show. They will, you can be on television without having to change anything you do. Network television, I should say. And, and you'll find out--Jim Gaffigan's a great example. Jim has always worked clean, and I've known Jim for awhile too. He's a great example of someone who's, who's reached a pinnacle because he's working clean.

[00:06:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, he's fantastic. And it's, it's nice, especially for those of us who don't necessarily want to hear all those, what feels like it becomes kind of gratuitous instead of just the material that is funny, like you said, on its own, and it doesn't need that. So.

[00:07:16] Kent Rader: Exactly.

[00:07:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's great. Well, and speaking of sort of the money aspect of it, I've chatted with a couple of artists, especially people that maybe are painters or things like that, but did you ever have a difficult time putting a price on your art, per se? 'Cause I know that that's a common theme of, well, I've been doing this my whole life and it doesn't feel like I should charge this much. How do you navigate that?

[00:07:42] Kent Rader: How I navigated it was looking at what other people in my world, other performers, what they were charging. And I remember, you know, the first time I asked for a certain dollar amount, a friend of mine, Mark LeBlanc, said ask for $500 more than you're comfortable as far as the speaking engagement goes, ask for $500 more than you're comfortable with asking. I would have a dollar amount and at some point I'd screw up my courage and ask for $500 more than and they would either accept it or reject it. But most of the time they just accepted it. And so I built my fees up in that regard, but first by looking at what people were charging, and then kinda as I looked at the speakers, you know, very few were as funny as I was, because very few had taken the pains to go to comedy clubs and do a midnight show and go through all of that in order to learn how to be funny.

[00:08:39] I mean, they may have a two-minute set up and one joke, and mine are, you know, seven, eight, 10 jokes a minute. And so that that's how I developed that. I think getting out of your comfort of what you're asking for is a huge, a huge part. And once you receive that money, now you begin to get comfortable with that money. And at some point as you improve, you say, okay, I want to ask for a little bit more and you know, maybe 10% or 20%. And once when somebody accepts that it becomes the norm, you know. But you, you have a skill and it's not a skill like in accounting, but I mean the way you can perform with your body as a dancer, is something that I will never be able to do, and watching the beauty of that, and I should pay to see the beauty of that.

[00:09:37] And so, yeah, I think find what other people in your level are charging and then start working your fees up. And, and of course, after, after this, after the COVID is over, I don't know that we'll have any idea what fees will be. We'll deal with that. Then we may have to start over, who knows, but we'll deal with that then. But yeah, that's how I did it. And of course I'm an accountant, so you know, that, that made perfect sense to me. I mean, I have a friend out in Kansas who, she's a wonderful speaker and she will not charge, she will not charge what she's worth. I mean, she brings home for speaking engagement and just as much headache of traveling as I have, and she'll bring home, you know, 25% of what I'm making, and it's because she doesn't see the value in what she's delivering to these people, and she has tremendous value. And you have a skill that a whole lot of people can't do, or if they could, we'd have a whole lot more people in the arts that we don't and, and you need to be paid for.

[00:10:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Amen. I hope everyone listening heard all of that. Because there is so much value to the arts and, you know, and obviously those who have listened to this podcast for a while, kind of know my stance on it and how much I know that the arts can have such a, such a beautiful impact on people's lives and on culture and, and, and the change that it can bring in. So. But the, the people that create that, they are providing something of value. And so, yeah, getting paid for that is important.

[00:11:22] Kent Rader: And there is no reward for being a starving artist. There is nothing of merit about being a starving artist. I mean, our, our daughter, Maggie is, you know, is a Shakespearian actress, and yet she has more money in the bank most of the time than I have because she's good with money, but she makes people pay her for her art. And her husband, Justin, is good too, because he makes people pay him for his art. He's also a performer. And, you know, if Shakespeare were easy to do, we would all do it and read it, you know, but when, when Shakespeare play that Maggie does you understand it as well as you would understand a movie or a play that was written today because she understands what Shakespeare wanted to do. And she understands the rhythm and the rhyme of Shakespeare. And it's beautiful. I have a joke about her being a Shakespearian actress and I cite two Shakespeare lines in that joke. And she one day corrected me on how to say it. And when she did that line I had been saying for two or three years made all the sense in the world, and she said, you pause here. And I thought, "Oh yeah, that makes sense 'cause I just run it all together." I knew the words, but I didn't know. I wasn't portraying the meaning of it.

[00:12:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Well, and I think that speaks to your due diligence. Something that I've really admired about learning about how you work, and that is-- I'll let you explain it more-- but one of the things that I've been impressed with is that when Kent does a show, he doesn't just say, "Okay, wahoo!" And then go party afterwards. He, as he'll share, goes back to his hotel room or back home and starts reviewing what he did, what worked, what didn't, tweaking things. So he is a true professional in that he's constantly also working on his art. He's not just satisfied with where he is. Does that, is that correct?

[00:13:29] Kent Rader: It is. And, and the one thing I do--that probably even most comedians don't do--I write every day. I don't write productively every day. A lot of it's junk, you know, but I do, I have a time every day where I spend two to three hours just writing and then the process I have, which has been interrupted with the COVID, is once I have something written, I take it into a comedy club usually just doing a guest set. So I do 10 minutes, you know, walk in and do 10 minutes with the show and, or I still do four or five weeks a year in comedy clubs where I can do an hour set and string some of that newer material together. I do it. I record it. I take it, like you say, back to my hotel room and I listen to it.

[00:14:14] I see what works and what doesn't work. And then the next morning when I'm writing, I rework the stuff that isn't working, take it back into the comedy club, work on it or record it that night, take it back to the hotel, listen to it, rewrite it.

[00:14:29] After World War II a guy named W. Deming went to Japan to rebuild the Japanese economy, and he had developed something called the Circle of Continuous Quality Improvement. And basically it's a circle that you have an idea, you implement the idea, you put it into your product. Then you ask your customer how they like it and whatever they don't like, you go back to the idea, you improve it, you change the product, you ask the customer again, how do you like it? And that's how Toyota and Honda became two of the biggest auto makers in the world is that back when I was a kid, Toyotas had a connotation of being a junky car, but they kept improving it all over those years. And now they have some of the best quality cars in the world. And so that's what, that was the idea with mine is that you improve it every night.

[00:15:22] And it's never done. My wife is an art teacher and she said that is the sign of a true artist. You are never happy with it. You know, it is never done. I just really rewrote something I've been doing for 16 or 17 years, rewrote the line, took two words out and it, and it's hard to do because I've got it in my memory in a different way, but it works better. So you're constantly improving the material, constantly improving the product. And too many people, too many comedians ,get an hour of material and then quit writing, you know?

[00:15:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:15:57] Kent Rader: I don't know how they do this because you could be better. You could, you could do better.

[00:16:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. Well, I think that's something that I've always personally loved about my art form in particular, but all art forms are like this, of there's no way to reach a level of perfection. So you have to continue. You know, it's just not a thing, you can't. And so you just keep striving for excellence and you keep honing your technique and, you know, that means going and making yourself do the technique class by yourself, in your garage. That's me right now, you know, just otherwise you, you are stagnant.

[00:16:39]Kent Rader: Your art you're passionate about, and I'm passionate about mine and it is, it is a passion. And so it's not work to me. You know, I, I love the idea that I have two hours or three hours to write. And, the Saturday shows are hard for me because I've usually had a Friday show. And I've traveled after the show to a new hotel and I get in at two or three in the morning, so I sleep there and then I get up and I, I need to run and I need to work. I need to write and I need to get to another show. And, that cuts into my writing time. And I miss that, you know, I miss it. I spend a lot of time backstage once I get to a show and do the soundcheck, I spend another hour writing before it. So it's a, it's it's part of my life and it's an important part about it. It is a big part of my life.

[00:17:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so to that point, I'm just curious, because since you're constantly working and reworking and all those kinds of things, has there ever been a time where you've had this show memorized and then you're working on something else, do you ever kind of get off flow that way of thinking about the new material?

[00:17:48] Kent Rader: Yeah, I can leave out whole segments of a story, because when you do new material, you sandwich it in between two pieces you know that work. You know, so you've got this story that you've been doing for five years. It works great. You got another story that you've been doing for seven years. It worked great. So take the new piece and stick it in between the two, because you know, there are only two or three minutes. If I lose the audience, I know I'm going to get them back with the next story. So it's fine, but I can be so focused on that new thing, that the piece in front of it, I can leave out half of it, you know? Because my mind is not there. My mind is on the new, new material. And so Twyla will listen to a recording and she'll go, "Oh my gosh, he left out two whole minutes." I go, "Yeah, I know." It's an odd thing in my mind, what I'm doing . But the audience probably doesn't know that.

[00:18:39] One time I had to do a show and they were, had a dinner in front of it and they were struggling to get the dinner served. And the lady said, "You know, we've got stuff after you. And, and so we're going to have to go on." And eating and comedy don't work well together. And so, I said, "OK, it's your show." And they're still eating, so they're not listening. And then after they quit eating, I get them back. And there's a 45 minute show, probably. So 20 minutes of it, they're still eating. And so it's struggles, you know, and then the last 25 minutes everything's great. And she comes up to me and she tells me what a great show it was. I go, "Are you kidding me? You have no idea how good this show could have been had they not been eating." You know?

[00:19:22] No, that was just, that's back to me. You know, it's like, you know, it could be a lot better, but back to being paid, you have to do what the person who's paying you. And that's why you're a professional. You know, you have to be able to overcome all of those things that the person who's paying you, the obstacles they throw in front of you... You know, one things I hate to do is take an intermission in a show, because comedy builds on itself, and you have to, it's like starting all over, but I understand that theaters need the revenue from the drinks to survive. And so I'll take an intermission and how I did it was I built a second opening three minutes. So it's like I'm starting all over with a new opening and it work. I don't enjoy it, but the theater and the audience do.

[00:20:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and back to Twyla, because I know that she has always been obviously very supportive of what you do, and I think that's incredible, but I just have to ask: so when you run new material by her, is she like your greatest advocate, and just like laughs because she's so supportive, or is she also your greatest critic and says, "Yeah, that's silly."

[00:20:33] Kent Rader: She's my greatest critic and I mean that... she and Maggie will tell me the truth. Okay. That's what I need. Everything I write is the greatest thing ever written according to my mother, you know, and that feels good. Because your mother should support you that way, but that's not what helps me. Twyla laughs at -- it's funny-- she laughs at very little at what I say. You know, now she'll laugh at a show because she's with the audience. But when she does laugh at something, then I have to keep it in there. Oh, Stephen King wrote a book called "On Writing," and it's about his process of writing. And he said he had an ideal reader, which is his wife, who is a poet and that's who he writes for. And that's who I write for. I write to make Twyla laugh.

[00:21:22] And if Twyla laughs at it, and Maggie thinks it's good, then I'm good with it. I had a bit about Maggie when she was in high school, and I run everything past my family if it's about them, I run it all past them to ask them if it's okay. 'Cause I wouldn't want to hurt somebody. I wouldn't want to hurt my loved one's feelings for something I've, you know, for a joke. I wrote something about, about Maggie when she was a senior in high school, and she said, "You know, you're fine to do it. It doesn't bother me, but it's not funny." And I thought, "Oh, she's just saying that, you know, she's 18." And so I did it for every night for a month and it tanked every night. And I finally admited to her, "You're right. It isn't funny."

[00:22:05] No, but I wrote something the other day and I wrote up a little piece about this woman that spoke at one of the conventions. And she, she said she believed that every household should have one vote in the election. And her quote was, "In a godly household, the man would have the final say." Which is something I completely disagreed with. And my joke is, "I think her husband ought to tell her to shut up." And I thought, and I thought that was way over the line, okay. I said it to Twyla and she laughed out loud and I had to, and I made a comment. So don't blame me. I, I just thought of it, Twyla's the one who laughed, you know? And so it's her fault that it's here. She's a critic in the good way. And Maggie is as well. But I need that. I need that honesty from them and it comes from a place of, they want the best for me. You know, my son Keith is not critical of me. And I think he was afraid he would hurt my feelings. Now he will, and he would speak up if it was something really, really bad. Maggie will tell me the truth and Twyla will tell me the truth and that's what I need.

[00:23:14]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I'm curious, are there any particular stories that come to mind as far as maybe of your own experience as a comedian, something that happened that comes to mind as being either meaningful or funny or, or whatever? Or from your own perspective of having viewed other art or anything that just like really stands out to you as far as, you know, an interaction with art essentially.

[00:23:40] Kent Rader: Like I said, my wife is an art teacher and, so she, she appreciates visual art much more than I do. And that's what I love about your, I cannot fathom how you write a dance. And be able to visualize that in your head of the movement. And I can't understand, I have no concept of how someone takes a landscape or a picture or an idea of somebody's face and then can put that onto a canvas, but Twyla can. And so she loved Georgia O'Keeffe, and we'd go to New Mexico and they have a Georgia O'Keeffe museum. And one, I remember Georgia O'Keeffe said, let's see... "To create one's own world in the arts takes a lot of courage." And I thought that's what it really took for me was a lot of courage to leave a steady job.

[00:24:32] And I would never have known that had I not been with Twyla and tried to understand the visual arts of painting and pottery. I love the movement of your art, even though if you've seen me perform, I stand there. I don't move, you know? But one of the things that, that I was, I wrote, let's see, I did a thing about... oh, I know... I did a thing about our grandson playing video games. And so when I perform it on stage, I have my head down and I'm put my thumbs together and I'm punching my thumbs, like a kid playing a video game. And so every time I talk, I'm standing there and then every time I'm having Kai talk, I've got my head down, punching a video games and Maggie saw me on TV one time and said, "Where did you learn about anchoring?"

[00:25:29] And I'll go "Anchoring? I don't know anything about anchoring." And she goes, "Oh, that's something that Shakespeare had developed 400 years ago." Was that you? I anchored the character because every time I've got my head down and doing my thumbs, I don't have to say "Kai said this." I just say it because the audience understands why I'm standing there. And so, you know, it's amazing that I came up with an idea that Shakespeare came up with 400 years ago, you know, and she told me all the ways you can anchor. It's through speech or voice or gesture or whatever. And so, I mean, Keith Richards says there's only like 12 songs in the world. Everything else is a offshoot of those 12. And it's amazing though, how we, how we learn sometimes on our own and sometimes from other artists about things. Or the perfection thing I learned quite from, from Twyla talking about that so many artists painters, especially where they've found works after they were dead, that were never finished because their art is never finished.

[00:26:37]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Excellent.

[00:26:39] Kent Rader: I rambled on.

[00:26:42] Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, I love it. And I think that it's interesting because you have a unique background and perspective. And then with having Twyla have bringing in all of her art and then your daughter and son-in-law with their art. And it's just, you've got such a rich atmosphere to work from. And that's really cool.

[00:27:03] Kent Rader: It is. And I think that that when you have artists, when you are around artists, you learn from them and you're encouraged by them as well, and you're supported by them. That's one of the things I loved about last year's Fringe Festival was you guys came and saw me and I went and saw you. And I, I love that, that we were supportive enough of each other. And I don't understand your, I mean, I could never do your art. I, one of the musicians did a thing of all new songs and it was beautiful. And it was a beautiful setting and it was beautiful music. And I thought I couldn't do that if, in a thousand years, but I enjoyed it. And I learned from it, I learned from the process. So yeah. I think it's important we support each other.

[00:27:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I absolutely agree. That's something that I've always really appreciated about the Fringe Festival is the atmosphere of we're all in this together and we're just manifesting in different ways essentially. But, I mean, I had a great time. I went to go see Kent and had a great time at his show and then he came to support my show, but we, we all kind of support each other within the community, which is really amazing. And I think that it helps, maybe indirectly, but it helps our own art forms when we can watch and absorb the things that, you know, another artist does so well and you think, "Oh, I wonder how I could utilize that somehow." Or, or for you, maybe you're getting new material because you're watching something, and then that sparks an idea. And, so every little interaction that you have with art can be really impactful in a different way.

[00:28:45] Kent Rader: Right. Well, I'm glad you said that because one of the things that every writer and I think probably, I don't know, I'm sure every comedian--we have thousands of little post-it notes everywhere of ideas, you know? And, and when you go see, I always have a notebook with me and a pen, even when I walk or when I am at a show, because that sparks an idea and you think you'll remember it, but you won't. So write it down. And then come back and use it in your own creation. And I, and that has been important. And a lot of mine is junk. I had a post-it note on my car dashboard. And Twyla saw it the other day and she goes, "What does that mean?" And I thought, "Well, I'm not really sure anymore." It was a great idea when I came up with it. I didn't make it detailed enough, I guess.

[00:29:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right! Oh my word. But yes, I think that happens to all of us. Well, It's funny because I have a personal antidote of being on the receiving end of this. So, last year after Kent came and saw our production, we ended up being able to connect and get together and actually start forming a friendship, and the first, the first day he brought his--was it your program that you had written all over?--or maybe it was a note, but anyway, I was peppered with questions and I loved it because it was so fun to get to share a little bit more about the process and, and just sort of talk to each other about, "Oh yeah! What do you think about this?" And, but yeah, the notebook is real, folks.

[00:30:31] Kent Rader: I'm fascinated with how people write or create, I guess, more importantly. And, and so when I see a show, I was fascinated how you see that. Or do you see, you know, do you see that? Or do you, 'cause I'm so much verbal and all mine is, is in words, but occasionally I will see a movement that I want to do. But not, not an hour, not an hour of total movement of 30 people, so yeah. And how does someone, how does someone come up with that? You know, my brain doesn't work that way. Thank goodness your brain works that way 'cause it was beautiful.

[00:31:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. But my brain doesn't work the same way yours does to create your art. So you know, it's all good.

[00:31:21] Kent Rader: Yeah. But we can appreciate other art as well.

[00:31:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right, exactly. Well, Kent, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're game for that. The first is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:31:40] Kent Rader: Art, art to me is something that you created that is unique to you. And there's a difference in my mind between art and success. Too many people want to be successful, so they recreate something somebody else has created or they mimic something else that somebody else has created. And that isn't art to me. Success, I mean, how do you define success? You know, it's more important that it's unique and that it's personal to me. And I remember a turning point in my life as an artist was stop making it about your success and make it about bringing joy and happiness to an audience. That was a huge turning point, but also it had to be so personal and so come from me. I want it to be so much about my life that nobody else could make it theirs, but they could relate to it as well.

[00:32:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:32:54]Kent Rader: I think to bring joy and happiness and a different end, to bring a different perspective, but especially today, we have a lot of difficulty in the world and if we can help someone through that, that's what I think we should be doing.

[00:33:09]Lindsey Dinneen: I wholeheartedly agree. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive meaning that the artist shares a little bit about what inspired the art, whether it's a backstory or a title or program notes or something to give a little bit of context to what they're putting out in the world. Versus exclusive referring to an artist creating something and sharing it with the world, but not providing any background. So it's solely up to the participant or viewer to come up with their own interpretation.

[00:33:57] Kent Rader: Well, I, I would say inclusive. I can see both points of view, because if you were exclusive, you would want that part, you would want to give them what you've created and let it be theirs then. I find great joy in understanding what went into that. And I think that's probably why I peppered you with all these questions. I wanted to know what went into that. I'm not a big Eric Clapton fan. But I saw a documentary and how he came up with what "Layla," what the song "Layla" meant to him. He was in love and the woman was married and didn't, you know, it's a difficult situation. And once I heard that, I fell in love with the song, "Layla," you know, and when I hear what went into this piece of art, Maggie's working on something that Charles Dickens wrote and a remake of "Great Expectations." And when she told me what Charles Dickens was going through, "Great Expectations" had a whole different meaning to me than what it had when I read it 30 years ago. And so I think for me, I want people to know what went into that. So yeah, definitely inclusive for me, but I can see both sides of both viewpoints.

[00:35:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. And I love asking all these questions, because like art, it's all subjective and it it's completely up to the person, you know? And I think that's such a valuable thing about art is that there's lots of avenues to enjoy it.

[00:35:34] Kent Rader: Right. Yeah, without a doubt.

[00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, we don't all have to agree, you know, that's okay.

[00:35:41] Kent Rader: If we all agreed, what good is art?

[00:35:44]Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I once heard that-- and I'm going to blank on his name, but he's an author--and he said that if he doesn't get at least 10% bad reviews of the works that he creates, he feels like he's not been true to himself because if you're everything to everybody, then that's not being honest with who you are. And I really love that.

[00:36:04] Kent Rader: Right. You know, I have people come to the show, don't enjoymy shows, and that's okay because I'm not for everybody. Yeah, there are comedians that I don't enjoy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be artists and they shouldn't be comedians.

[00:36:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, Kent, first of all, thank you so very much for joining me and for being on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. I would love, you know, if people could connect with you or see some of your work. I know you have lots of avenues for that. Are there some good ways for any of our listeners to connect with you?

[00:36:39] Kent Rader: Yeah, the best way is probably through my website, kentraderspeaks.com. And I do a daily thing on Amazon called "Laughter Matters," which is just a one to two minute piece on something funny that hopefully bring everybody a laugh and so you can look it up on Amazon, on their Daily Flash Briefing. It's called "Laughter Matters." So both of those are great ways. And then, if you go to kentraderspeaks.com, when we get back to performing live, we'll have dates on there as well.

[00:37:06]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And you have some clips and things like that too on your website?

[00:37:11] Kent Rader: There are, they're on the website. And there's a YouTube channel Comedian Kent Rader that you can see them as well.

[00:37:16]Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, thank you again so much, and thank you for being brave and for having taken that big leap of faith, back in the day, so to speak and, and then continuing to hone and craft your art. I think that you do bring your audiences a lot of joy. I'm privileged to have seen, I think a couple shows now, but I just really appreciate you. And, so, so thank you. Thank you for sharing art with the world.

[00:37:43] Kent Rader: Thank you. And the other thing about art is it takes awhile. Don't give up on it. You know, I mean it takes years and that's okay. No matter how long it takes us to do it, it's good. But thank you. Thank you for having me. Like I said, you're always a joy to be around.

[00:37:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Thanks! Well, and folks, thank you so much for listening too, and if you have a story to share with us, we'd love to hear that, but also, just if you are as inspired as I am after listening to this episode, I'd love if you'd share with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

[00:38:22] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Trenna Reed! Trenna is a professional dancer, choreographer, teacher, and the Program Coordinator for the Kansas City Fringe Festival. She shares about the various art forms she's gotten to be a part of, as well as the ins and outs of being on the adminstrative side of the arts.

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Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 18 - Trenna Reed

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you and you're enjoying doing it, and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, the wonderful Trenna Reed, and Trenna is a artist. She is also, oh my goodness, what should we call you? Like Administrative Organizer Extraordinaire. And there's like an actual job title for you, and I don't want to butcher it, but that's you in my mind...

[00:01:00]Trenna Reed: I usually just say Program Coordinator...

[00:01:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, okay! Alright!

[00:01:03] Trenna Reed: To put a name to it.

[00:01:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect.

[00:01:05] Trenna Reed: It's basically like, I would say an assistant to the ever fabulous Cheryl Kimmi.

[00:01:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. And we'll definitely share a little bit more about that. But also Trenna is an accomplished dancer, choreographer and teacher, and is a lover of the arts in general. And she shares them with the world in a pretty unique way and in kind of an administrative capacity for the Kansas City Fringe Festival. And so I am so excited to have you on. Thank you, Trenna, for joining us today.

[00:01:40] Trenna Reed: Yes, of course. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:01:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe what kind of different arts you dabble in and just, yeah, share with us who you are. Thank you.

[00:01:54] Trenna Reed: Absolutely. Well, art is in my family in several capacities. So my mother is a dance teacher and we still teach dance together to this day, which is really amazing. It's one of my favorite ways to pass the time. And her mother was also a dance teacher and her aunt was a dance teacher. They each had their own studios. So it definitely runs in the family. My aunt was a dance teacher. She recently retired. And my other aunt, this is all on my mom's side, by the way, my other aunt was also a dance teacher early on, and then she transitioned to, I think, teaching English. And I still teach dance. My father, on the other hand, this is how art is also in our family. He was involved in theater and he's a wonderful singer. So he passed that ability to sing onto me. So I did choir and everything like that, all throughout elementary, middle, and high school. And, I still sing whenever I can just not as often. I was trying to get back into voice lessons before all of this craziness started.

[00:03:17] So hopefully after it's calmed down a little bit, I can get back into that as well. And my father actually got his singing from his father. So that trait has been on my father's side of the family. And I was also, as far as other arts that I've been involved in, I've also been involved in theater. I love acting, I haven't been able to pursue it as much lately, but I did theater all throughout high school, and I was in a play in college as well. It was an awesome experience because not a lot of dancers at my college got to be involved in, you know, straight plays.

[00:04:02] So that, that was a really cool experience to go back and revisit that art form in college. What else am I missing? Oh, I have a four and a half month old daughter named Sage. And she is just wonderful and, you know, has kind of put everything into perspective for me. I feel like it kind of makes art that much more meaningful because I want to pass on my love of art and the importance of it, that concept to her. 'Cause it really shaped my life. So I'm hoping that it can shape hers as well.

[00:04:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. And so when you're not teaching... so, so I guess what else do you do? Well, we got your job title earlier, but tell us a little bit about your involvement in the Kansas City Fringe Festival and that job that you have too.

[00:05:02] Trenna Reed: Sure. So actually for the Fringe Festival, my first year, I started off in, I would say a lighter capacity, as the head of ticket sales, which is called Fringe 411. So, that was my title the first year. And that was really all I worked on, 'cause it's very time consuming. And then, I kind of just stayed involved with the organization throughout the year after that. And then when it came back around time to do the festival in 2019, I was in a position where I could step up and on a larger role. And Cheryl's program coordinator had left 'cause she got a job offer somewhere else and started to go in a different direction with her career.

[00:05:55] So Cheryl asked me to kind of step up at least, you know, we weren't sure if it was going to be temporary until she found someone else, 'cause I still have other jobs too. So I wasn't, I didn't know if I could take on the program coordinator position full on, but I was at least going to step in for a little while until they figured out if they could find someone else to fill that slot on the team. So last year was my first year as Program Coordinator for the Fringe Festival. And I learned a lot. I continue to learn. There are so many aspects to putting on a festival and, when I was in college, I was on the performance track. So I didn't have a ton of opportunities to do behind-the-scenes work, besides the costuming work that I did.

[00:06:53] And working for the Fringe Festival has really allowed me to take on some more of those management roles, which I, I enjoy. I do. I didn't think that I would be that type of person to be in an administrative role, but it's really gratifying at the end of everything. And, you know, it teaches you patience and communication skills, to say the least.

[00:07:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:26] Trenna Reed: Yeah. It's just, it's been an amazing experience. And I mean, this time around will be a whole different animal because of everything going on. So everything's kind of up in the air with the festival right now, but, you know, the way things are going, unless we have to shut back down again, I think we'll be able to do the festival in some capacity.

[00:07:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Great.

[00:07:52] Trenna Reed: Whether that's trying to do some things virtually or just condensing it to like two weekends, we're going to try and think of creative ways to keep it going. 'Cause we really don't want to just have to shut it down completely for this year and lose that momentum, right?

[00:08:11]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and, just to give our audience some perspective who might not be familiar with the Fringe Festival, do you mind sharing some stats about the magnitude of what the Fringe Festival typically is, as far as all the different groups you're trying to organize and coordinate?

[00:08:31] Trenna Reed: Yeah, for sure.

[00:08:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, ' cause that's amazing.

[00:08:35] Trenna Reed: Yeah. I can definitely give you some ballpark. I can't think off the top of my head of what attendance is, but our festival is a pretty large festival. There's lots of different Fringe Festivals around the world. Some of them are really tiny and some of them are huge. Like Orlando Fringe is one of the biggest in the US, and I think put on something like 150 shows or something, or 150 different productions, which is crazy. We do around 75 productions. So that means there's 75 different performance groups or performers. If it's just a one person show, and each of those shows has usually five slots in which they perform. So we're coordinating, you know, 75 times five--I can't do that math in my head how many actual individual shows--and then we usually work with, I would say, between 500 and 750 artists within that. So, I didn't realize it was that many people until I was trying to go through and get some demographics. For our grant writers, we have to kind of go into detail about, you know, how many people are involved, how many artists are involved, our attendance, things like that. So I was going through and looking at all of the waivers that the performers have to fill out out. And I was like, "Oh my God, I didn't realize we have over, easily over 500 people involved in this festival, just on the performing side."

[00:10:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:10:23] Trenna Reed: Yeah, it's, it's crazy. And it runs for 10 days. And, you know, we'll usually--like the first, well, I guess technically two weeks--because we start off with our visual arts, which is also another component of it. So that's adding another, I think like around 50 people, but another component of it that we're coordinating at the same time. And, you know, we've actually been trying to grow that aspect of it a little bit more. We don't want the visual artists to feel like they're in the background. So we usually start off with our visual arts opening. And that'll be usually--I think on a Sunday is when we usually do it. And then the following Friday is when the actual performances start for the festival and then the performances will go for 10 days. So it's a lot. We have a lot of volunteers that help and we wouldn't be able to do it without our amazing volunteer base.

[00:11:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it is an undertaking. I commend you for your patience and your adaptability, because so much that you guys do and pour into that festival every year. So yes.

[00:11:46] Trenna Reed: You have to have some sort of faith in humanity to be able to do that.

[00:11:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That seems, that seems right. Oh my goodness. Yes. Well, thank you for sharing about that. And, I know you probably have like a zillion stories just from the festival, from your own art experiences, but does anything kind of stand out as something you wanted to share today?

[00:12:11] Trenna Reed: Hmm, I'm trying to think of specifically for the festival, because there's so much happening every day during the festival. And, well, this is, so I just saw-- this was a social media post on Mother's Day, and this is just like a little story to put it into perspective how hard our director for the festival works. So her birthday is June, I think it's June 12th? Or sometime around then. And, she was, I think, out to eat with her family. And her son, Brent, posted that she had forgotten that it was her birthday.

[00:12:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:12:59] Trenna Reed: And I mean, this is, you know, par for the course for Cheryl, because she works so hard and never stops that she'll forget it's her birthday...

[00:13:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word...

[00:13:11]Trenna Reed: ...until her family reminds her. I mean, because that's about a month away until the festival is opening. So we're getting pretty into the thick of it at that point.

[00:13:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:13:22] Trenna Reed: So, I mean, I have lots of little stories like that about Cheryl and she's just a peach. She's best. And I, we all love working for her and she is the heart and soul of the festival and her positive energy just exudes and it shapes the experience of the festival. And, she's always kind and patient, but she also knows when she has to draw the line and give tough love sometimes. So I think finding the balance for that is one of her strengths.

[00:14:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think so too. She is a remarkable woman. And yeah, I'm a huge fan. I think everyone who meets her are. You know, it's because she's just, like you said, she she's so kind and she's so inclusive, and then when she needs to put her foot down, she can. But until that time, she's just the loveliest, so much fun. I just, I love her. Yeah.

[00:14:34] Trenna Reed: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I was just thinking of another, like, this is just kind of a glimpse into what it's like behind the scenes. So, when we're, like at the end of the night, what we do is we tally--well, that's a simplistic way to put it--but we figure out the ticket sales, and try and make sure that everything balances out, 'cause we keep track of the attendance of each show. 'Cause at the end of the festival, we handout the Best Of awards. And currently the Best Of is based on attendance for your show. So, you know, whoever has the most attendance for a certain venue wins best of that venue. So what we have to do at the end of each night is we have to count all the money, count all the tickets that we've received, see how many comps were used. And when we got down to the end of the festival and we're trying to figure out Best Of we were--you know, it's like 11:45 at night, and we're trying to get it out by midnight. But our last show for the night ended at, I think, 11:30. So, we're waiting for the last envelopes of the ticket tallies to come back and there's a couple of shows that are within one person in the audience to determine who won. And, I mean, it was like that for several of them.

[00:16:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow.

[00:16:13] Trenna Reed: So, and you know, sometimes the numbers don't add up and we're just like, I don't know if this is accurate, or how we can make sure that we have the most accurate count because the numbers aren't adding up.

[00:16:27] Lindsey Dinneen: So because you know, they're cross referencing. Is that correct? Sorry to interrupt, but just for context with somebody who doesn't know, 'cause you're cross referencing, from the usher count versus ticket sales or? Okay.

[00:16:38] Trenna Reed: Correct.

[00:16:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:16:40] Trenna Reed: So we have the usher count and then we use our online ticket platform called Ticketleap. And some of our volunteers are not as familiar with technology. So sometimes they have issues getting everything entered into Ticketleap. And it's also stressful for them when they're trying to get people checked in and seated. So sometimes they don't have time to enter it in as accurately as possible. So, it's just a lot of different factors going into it that can affect the way the numbers turn out at the end.

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: So I know that it's been close a few years, but oh my goodness, I can't believe within maybe one audience member. It's that close? Oh, my word that's amazing.

[00:17:27] Trenna Reed: It was, it was stressful. I think we got the numbers out close to midnight. I honestly don't remember. I was probably delirious by that point.

[00:17:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yes. Let's let's talk about Trenna for a second, folks. So, okay. So I had met Trenna-- because my company also performs at the Fringe Festival--so I had met Trenna briefly, but then we didn't actually, like, sit down and have a conversation until I think August, maybe?

[00:18:01] Trenna Reed: Yeah, it was the beginning of August.

[00:18:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so, and you know, and at that time, I found out she was pregnant. She shared that with me. And I just remember thinking like, "What? You just literally changed your entire sleep schedule for the Fringe Festival, because first of all, that is like 14 days of chaos." Oh my word. And then she's pregnant and she's such a powerhouse, still wants to keep, you know, doing all the things and, you know, up until her due date. So speaking of that, I was privileged enough to have Trenna as one of the choreographers for my company's Nutcracker production, which we called "Cracked!" And, so it was an original show, all original choreography to kind of celebrate Kansas City. So it's a little more unique in that way. And, Trenna is choreographing and setting the choreography and is at our shows being our Backstage Coordinator. And she's amazing. And--okay-- and she's taking our warmup classes. And how, how much time did you have left before you were about to get birth?

[00:19:12] Trenna Reed: I had about two and a half weeks. I felt pretty good. So I tried to keep active. Actually I'd say that the first trimester, I mean, you know, the first trimester is usually comparable with the third in that it's pretty hard. But I would say like my energy level was definitely lower for the first trimester than it was for the third. And I mean, you know, I just had so many things going on in November and December, so I didn't really have a choice.

[00:19:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:19:52] Trenna Reed: You know, well, and my husband had to kind of put into perspective that I needed to slow down because I'm not good at taking care of myself in that sense, because I feel better when I stay busy. But sometimes I get to the point where I don't know how to balance my life because I try and make myself so busy. So, I was going to try and keep teaching until like, I think a week before my due date, or maybe like a week and a half before, and finally, you know, I was getting so tired from everything that was going on. And then he had to have a serious conversation with me and was like, you can't keep just going on like normal. So I'm really glad that he helped me put that into perspective because I needed that wake up call.

[00:20:48] Lindsey Dinneen: No, literally, folks, she seriously is a super woman. She shows up to every show that we did and our dress rehearsal and she's wearing heels, okay, looks stunning, of course, takes the ballet warmup class, and the. Does all the backstage coordinating and in theory, literally could give birth at any time. Like, yeah, just amazing.

[00:21:14] Trenna Reed: Can we talk about your sister, though?

[00:21:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah.

[00:21:18] Trenna Reed: I had no idea that what she was, what, seven and a half months pregnant at that time? I, I, well, I mean, once I found out that she was pregnant, I was like, "Maybe she's like four or five months pregnant?" No, no. Seven months pregnant. Wow. I can't imagine doing Sugar Plum and being seven months pregnant.

[00:21:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, okay. So my sister is another superwoman. Yeah. She danced one of the quintessential roles of the Nutcracker which is basically the Sugar Plum Fairy role. We called it something different in our show, but, on pointe, plus she did Snow. Plus she was in all the group scenes, right? Like all the party scenes and Flowers, which was an insane dance. I'm just going to throw that out there. Yeah, I choreographed it. I can say that.

[00:22:08] Trenna Reed: Standing backstage and watching everyone on the side of the stage, like, heaving for breaths, you know, and Sophie had like some respiratory issues going on. She had to take her inhaler backstage. And I was like, I have been there. I know how that feels. I had to do that in that, I was the Sugar Plum for our production when my dance studio did the Nutcracker, and in between like the, variation and the Coda I had to take a couple puffs of my inhaler to get through it.

[00:22:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, so the Nutcracker is probably a difficult ballet for anyone involved, but with a smaller company, I mean, I make this joke, but it's, it's reality--you're either dancing or you're changing. There's no downtime. So as soon as those first notes of the, you know, opening number happen, you just...two hours, well, I don't know if it's quite two hours, but an hour and a half of like cardio. Yes. Yeah. And my sister's doing this seven and a half months pregnant and rocking it. It was a miracle. But anyway. Yeah. So I'm just curious, Trenna, is there like one thing that you maybe were surprised by, or that you learned? You know, that could be like anything about art or about organization or people or whatever, like something that's kind of stood out as maybe like unexpected when you started taking over the coordination of the Fringe Fest .

[00:23:41] Trenna Reed: I think the thing that's surprised me the most is just, you know, I'm so used to being on the performing side of it and I just, I get so much joy from that. I never knew that you can get the same kind of feeling when you're working behind the scenes for something as well. Because, you know, I would just describe--like when I'm on stage, I just feel like a different part of my soul has awakened. I'm getting really deep here, but that's the best way I can describe it. And towards the end of the festival, when we've done all the grunt work and everything is kind of coming together, it's that same feeling where I feel like the artist in me has come to the forefront, and it makes you fall in love with your art form even more. Or fall in love with, I guess, the Fringe Festival and what it represents, even more. Yeah, I just, I was surprised that I could get that Feeling from being a Program Coordinator as well.

[00:24:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I can relate, and that is really interesting. And that's great to know too, about yourself, that you do have so many different, I dunno, ways to--when you engage in the arts in general, you have then multiple avenues that allow you to feel that joy, which is awesome. Yeah, that's really cool.

[00:25:17] Trenna Reed: Absolutely. And, you know, I felt that same thing with costuming when my Alma Mater asked me to come back and fill in for the Costume Mistress position at Oklahoma City University for the dance program, because their costume mistress was having her second baby. And I had worked in the costume shop, while I was there getting my degree for my work study, and I had been heavily involved in that costume shop and knew the way that it operated and was familiar with the staff. So they asked me to come back and head that up for a couple of months. And, I was super nervous because the extent of my costuming was being involved in dance and theater and being around costumes, knowing how to sew once I got to college and the work that I had done in the costume shop. Besides that, I don't really have a background in like costume design or anything like that.

[00:26:18]So I was just kind of going in there and winging it. And, it was a really, really great feeling at the end of it, knowing that I had, helped to create and manage this amazing team, 'cause the students that work in the costume shop, I would not have been able to do that job if they had not been there to lead each other and really step up to the plate while the Costume Mistress was gone. And you know, I got that same feeling, watching the shows and watching the costumes on stage and seeing everything come to fruition, I guess. And knowing that I had made some of the decisions that contributed to the costumes working. So that, that was a really incredible experience too. And, you know, I don't know if I'll ever be like the costume designer or anything like that. I thought about exploring that avenue as well, but maybe that'll be something that I try to delve into a little bit more later in life. But you know, it was that same feeling of the artist in me awakening, I guess.

[00:27:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And representing in a different way than, you know, than you had really explored before.

[00:27:49] Trenna Reed: Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's really neat. Well, thank you so much for sharing just about your experience. And I love hearing behind-the-scenes stories and, just, you know, it's so funny-- it's wonderful as an audience member, you get to kind of see the final picture and you don't get to see necessarily everything that goes into it. But I, I love the real talk of behind-the-scenes, 'cause there's a lot to it and it can get messy and it can, and it's difficult, but you look at the end result and you're like, wow, that's, that's pretty cool.

[00:28:26] Trenna Reed: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a gratifying experience.

[00:28:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I just have a couple questions that I like to ask my guests, if you don't mind me asking you. Okay. So first, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:28:46] Trenna Reed: Hmm, I would say art is human expression, because I guess the way that I think about it is, of all the species on this planet, as far as we know, humans are really the only ones who can convey art and understand art. I guess dogs can watch TV, but you know, they don't really comprehend what's going on, so that, I would say, it's a human expression. And, for me it's just, it's art is love and passion, and it's how we express those emotions or any emotions, which is such an important part of being a human being.

[00:29:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:29:53] Trenna Reed: Hmm. I think probably connecting to the audience, whether it be the person looking at your painting, or the person watching you perform, or watching the movie you created, just finding some way to connect to the people who are consuming that art.

[00:30:24] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That is a very unique answer. I've never heard somebody describe it like that before, and I think that's incredibly important. Thank you.

[00:30:33] Trenna Reed: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Lindsey Dinneen: And then my final question, and then I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So what I mean by that is exclusive kind of referring to an artist creates something, they share it with the world and then they let the world interpret it the way that they will. So they don't really provide context. Maybe there's not a title, maybe you don't know the inspiration behind it. Versus inclusive where the artist does share something. So maybe it's program notes or maybe it's a description, or the inspiration behind. It is basically some context so that the audience has a hint of what's going on.

[00:31:16] Trenna Reed: Right. That's a good question, but I really think it depends on, it depends on the artist and it depends on the audience or the consumer of the art. Because, I mean, for me, sometimes I do like getting that context and it helps me understand what's going on better. And I feel like I have a better experience with that art form when I have that insight. But on the other hand, like, you know, like for instance, last night I was watching a show called Ray Donovan on, I think it's on Showtime. And there was a part where he picked up a Bible. And when he turned to the front of it, you see a cross. And then in the song that was playing, you hear an organ, they just kind of like snuck that in there as a sort of symbolism, and connecting the music to what was on screen. And it was cool for me to make that discovery on my own, as opposed to being told, "Hey, we put this in here because of this." You know what I mean?

[00:32:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely.

[00:32:33] Trenna Reed: So I think it depends on the person looking or experiencing the art, and how that artist wants to connect with their audience. Do they want them to figure it out on their own because it will be more meaningful that way? Or is it so abstract that they need some sort of context to be able to fully grasp and appreciate that art?

[00:33:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. Well, thank you again so much, Trenna, for being my guest today. I really appreciate it. And I just want to say on behalf of myself, but not just on behalf of myself, on behalf of the world, I really appreciate that you share your art with the world, whether that's you're dancing, you're choreographing, teaching. But just all the ways that you bring art to the world world, even, you know, singing or costume design and, and administration, the organization of it is so important. And so I just want to say thank you because when you bring that to the world, I think you make it a more beautiful place. So I appreciate that you share, and yeah.

[00:33:45] Trenna Reed: Thank you so much.

[00:33:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Well, thank you also, everyone who has listened to this episode, if you feel as inspired as I do, I would love for you to share it with maybe a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:34:02]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much! And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Liza Lomax! She is the founder of Love Your Body Coaching, and helps women fully accept and embrace themselves. She shares several stories about how art has not only impacted and inspired her own life, but also that of her clients' lives as well. As an empath, Liza is highly intuitive and discusses how that impacts her relationship with art.

Get in touch with Liza Lomax: https://www.facebook.com/liza.lomax | www.lizalomax.com | www.instagram.com/lizalomax | www.twitter.com/liza_lomax

Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 17 - Liza Lomax

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:23]Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told! I'm Lindsey, and I am very delighted to have as my guest today, Liza Lomax, and she is a coach, but she, that just like barely scratches the surface. And I'm so excited to share her with you today because she has an incredible story about her own trajectory, which led her to be a coach, but also just in general, her life story is incredible. And her stories about how art has kind of been weaving through her life is also incredible. And I'm just so excited that you're here, Liza. So thank you for joining us today.

[00:01:12] Liza Lomax: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.

[00:01:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay. Awesome. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself and your story or what kind of, however you want to introduce who you are? I would love that!

[00:01:26] Liza Lomax: For sure. So I'm a body image coach. My business is called Love Your Body Coaching. What is that? So I help women go from self-loathing to self-loving. I help women be able to look at themselves naked in the mirror and fully, truly, madly, deeply accept themselves and love themselves as the reflection that they see staring back at them.

[00:01:50]I have my own personal transformation story. It is quite a story, but we don't have hours and hours, so I will condense it a little bit for everybody. As a teenager, I suffered from two EDs [eating disorders]. I suffered from anorexia and overeating, so binge eating, and I went from one end of the spectrum to the other. And by the time I was 26, I weighed 300 pounds. I was borderline diabetic. I had high cholesterol. I had high blood pressure. I had a two year old at the time and the doctor told me that if I didn't lose weight, I wasn't going to live to see him turn five. And again, he was two at the time. So I was like, well, I want to live to see my son. So I'll lose the weight.

[00:02:37]Now I came from a very religious background, a very religious household. And, you know, as all children, when right away when we're little we're, you know, when we're told they have to look a certain way and dress a certain way and act a certain way and be a certain way. And when we're not those ways, we try to fix them. And that's where that not good enough story starts. And then it, you know, harbors is in our brains until there until we're an adult. And then that's all we think about is that we're not good enough. We're not special enough. We're not beautiful enough or not pretty enough. We're not this, we're not that.

[00:03:10] And I really had that not-good-enough story really just stick in my brain so ingrainly deeply in there that I just, I didn't care about myself. I didn't love myself. I literally hated myself. I had low self esteem. I would look in the mirror and I would hate the person that was staring back at me. I suffered from body dysmorphia. And so I literally would see a monster in the mirror when I did look in the mirror. And so when I was 300 pounds and I was sitting in the doctor's office and he's telling me I've got to die. I'm like, okay, well, I got to do something. So I lost 105 pounds in 13 months.

[00:03:52] However, I didn't change my mindset and I continue to yo-yo over and over and over. I still had those same behaviors with same habits, so same limiting beliefs. And it took me probably about five or six years later. I literally hit rock bottom. And I was addicted to diet pills. I was a heavy drinker. I did things to my body nobody should ever do to themselves. I had such a low self esteem. I hated myself, hated everything about me. I put myself in situations where I should have been killed, and whether you believe in God, higher source, higher power, whatever you believe--I really believe that God just was telling me that I needed to change and something needed to give.

[00:04:34] And because I've been a people pleaser, I've been a doormat, I've been a caregiver. I have taken care of everybody around me. I'm a lover of love. I love people. I love to give myself and I've given so much of myself to everybody else that I've never given myself myself. If that makes sense. I've never given anything to me. And I've never loved myself. Truly madly, deeply loved myself. And so it sent me on this mission to find me, to find my authentic self, to find who I am, to love myself, to heal all those wounds, to reframe, retrain those limiting beliefs, those behaviors, those stories that I created, you know, since I was a child. And, you know, create new habits, new beliefs and new behaviors.

[00:05:21] And, so I went in, got certified in multiple, a multitude of different things and, you know, and went and studied every self help book and every guru and everybody out there. And so I had all these tools in my toolbox because I knew that there were other women out there that struggled. There are other women out there that needed my help. And because I'm such a lover of love and lover of people, I knew my mission in this world was to love people and was to give love and show people how to love, and show women how to love themselves, just the way they are. And through all this process, art was really incorporated in my life. And I never really thought about it because it was just, it came second nature to me. And, when I was 14, I started writing poetry. And I channel a lot, so I'm an empath. I'm highly intuitive, and so I channel a lot of people's emotions, including my emotions, by myself.

[00:06:17] So writing was a huge thing for me. Writing poetry was a huge thing for me and during some really, really dark times, I noticed I found this love for painting, and so I would paint. I used painting as a way to express my emotions and to get them out. So for me, it was like a way of getting them out of my, out of my body, and putting them somewhere else so that I didn't have to hold onto them anymore. That was my way of releasing it. Everybody has their own way of releasing things. That was my way of releasing. And I really felt that it really helped me. It was very beneficial for me and really helped me get through some really dark times. And, now I use that, I incorporate it in my coaching. I use that as a healthy, emotional outlet to go to when you're struggling or when you have something, you know, you need to release those emotions. Art and drawing and painting and writing are great ways to release those emotions. So yeah, that's a little bit about me.

[00:07:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:07:25] Liza Lomax: Yes, you're very welcome. Thank you.

[00:07:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So your story is just incredibly powerful. And I love the fact that now you are taking, obviously a very difficult journey that you've been through, to empower not only yourself, but other women who probably have gone through very similar things and felt, you know, very similarly and and I just think that's an incredible gift that you're giving. I would love to dive a little bit deeper into some of the ways that art has had an impact in your journey. If you don't mind, if any stories come to mind as to, maybe specifically, if there's anything in particular that kind of stands out as being truly helpful in that journey. And, and I know before we started recording, we had talked about how you even encourage in your coaching this to be an outlet. So I'm just, I'm super curious to hear a little bit more about that if that's okay.

[00:08:22] Liza Lomax: Oh yeah, for sure! And actually one story comes to mind. I, you know, not only went through a lot of stuff. I also had a lot of toxicity in my life and I had a lot of people, places and things is what I call them. And I went from one abusive relationship to another and in different ways of abusiveness. And I remember this one time that I started painting again. And it was a picture of--in my head, I had this picture of me standing in darkness and all I had was a little, a little bitty lamp. And I was holding onto this lamp and there was just this little bit of glimmer of light. And there was all this darkness around me and it symbolized what my life was like at that time. And I had a lot of darkness around me. I had a lot of toxicity in my life. I was in a very abusive relationship, mentally and not physically, but mentally and emotionally abusive. And I remember I'm painting this thing and I remember that person coming up and ridiculing me about this painting in this picture, that it looks like something that I'm, I'm not going to say on, on this call, but referenced it being something just really disgusting and in a space that just was not good. And, I could have easily scratched it and ripped it up and tore it away or threw it away.

[00:09:55] You know, I could have easily have done something like that, which my past self probably would have. Because I'm like, "Oh, well I don't live up to this person's expectations." So I'm just gonna, I'm just going to do something else. But no, I had the mindset that, no, I'm going to finish this painting 'cause it's something that I need to do and I need to get it out. And if you could just envision a little girl, standing in a big dark forest and all that she has is the little light in her lamp. And, that was the picture--was just this, all this darkness around but I knew that there was some light at the end of the tunnel. And I knew that I was going to get through whatever the situation that I was in at the time I was going to get through it because I had my light and whether it was super, super tiny, it didn't matter, 'cause it was still light in that darkness.

[00:10:47]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Do you still have that painting?

[00:10:51]Liza Lomax: It's somewhere in storage.

[00:10:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah?

[00:10:54] Liza Lomax: 'Cause we travel me and my partner travel a lot, so it's in storage somewhere, but...

[00:11:00] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm glad you kept it.

[00:11:03] Liza Lomax: Yeah. Yeah, it was, it, yeah, it was a very pivotal time and in my life at that time, when I drew that. Yeah, very memorable to me.

[00:11:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And so I know that you also encourage your clients to use art as an outlet. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about that?

[00:11:25] Liza Lomax: Yeah. So in my program, there's a module that we go through called Healthy Emotional Outlets. And whether it's EFT or whether it's energy healing work, whether it's exercising, some of the other things I've incorporated are music and drawing and painting and writing. And, one of the things I encourage right away when my clients start a program with me is to start journaling and start writing. Writing for me has always been a huge impact. And, so writing right away and using art as a way to get your emotions out and to be able to--cause some, I mean, we don't, we're emotional beings. I mean, we base every choice, every decision, everything that we make is on emotions. And you know, a lot of times we're told that we can't show our emotions and we can't be emotional and you know, "I'll give you something to cry about."

[00:12:24] You know? I mean, there's these things that we're told that when our kids that we know we can't, we can't do these things. And so we grow up pushing our emotions down and down and down, and we have such a hard time releasing those. And so using art as a way to release those emotions is huge. It's very impactful because if you don't know how to release them, I really believe that art is a good way of releasing those emotions.

[00:12:52] Lindsey Dinneen: And when you encourage your clients to use that as an outlet, which I love--I'm super biased as an artist myself--but I love that you do that, because it can make such a difference--is it something where do you ever get any kind of pushback where people think, "Well, I'm not an artist or, you know, I, I can't draw or I can't paint." Or is that part of like a mindset that you're also working to help kind of overcome? The "I can't" or "I don't" kind of thing associated with art?

[00:13:24] Liza Lomax: Yes, because yes, we can do things. We just choose not to do them. So I tell people I'm like, you can do something, you just choose not to do them. And you know, if you don't want to do it, that's fine. It's there and everybody always gives it a least a chance, a go. And I love it when I hear people say that they can't draw or they can't sing. And it's like, well, first of all, you can sing. It just might not be very good. And you can draw. It just might not be very good. So, you know, saying that you can't do something is not true. It's never true because you can do it. Just so, so it doesn't matter whether it doesn't look good to you or to somebody else or to whomever. You're still getting that out and still getting those emotions out and still releasing what you need to release. So I don't believe in the word "I can't." It's always, you choose not to.

[00:14:22] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. I love that so much. Oh my goodness. Yeah, because I think it's so important--and I love the way that you worded it--it is so important that we go into something that new for us. And maybe we've never expressed ourselves in that way before, but we go into it saying it's possible. I might not be very good at it, but that doesn't-- it shouldn't decrease even the attempt at it. I mean, I'm not brilliant at drawing, but I'll do it. I can kind of draw a little bit, some stick figures.

[00:14:57] Liza Lomax: Right, right! If it's a whole, a whole page of stick figures. Okay. So be it. That's your art. It's okay. Art is art is art is art. It doesn't matter what it is.

[00:15:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. I love it. Yes. So do you personally continue to engage in the arts? I mean, are you still kind of active as an artist? I know different seasons lead to different things, but, are you still kind of enjoying arts as well?

[00:15:24] Liza Lomax: Yes. I mean, all the time I'm constantly doodling or writing. You know, something comes to my mind, I'll write it down. So, but with all the arts, you know, I did theater for 15 years and that was a huge impact in my life as well. I've always incorporated lots of art into my world. And, music is also a huge form of the arts and going and listening to music and really listening to the melodies and the silence behind it. And that has an impact on how you feel too. Music is a huge thing too, for me. I still doodle, I still draw. I travel a lot, so I can't always just sit and get an easel up and start painting, but when I get an opportunity, I'll take it.

[00:16:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing about your own life journey and sharing about what you're doing now and how you're helping people. And all of that is so wonderful. So thank you for sharing that with us. I really appreciate it.

[00:16:29] Liza Lomax: Thank you.

[00:16:30] Lindsey Dinneen: And, I would love if it's okay with you, I always ask the same three questions to my guests. So I'm just curious about your opinions on them, if you're okay with that.

[00:16:40] Liza Lomax: Yes, for sure.

[00:16:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:16:48]Liza Lomax: Oh, wow. That's a good question. Oh, how would I, how would you describe it? To me, art is an emotion. it's anger. It's sadness. It's happy. It's frustration. It's irritation. It's gratefulness. It's blessings. When I look at art, I can feel what the artist was portraying at that time because I'm an empath. So looking at art is very impactful for me because I can see it and I can feel what the person was trying to express or trying to convey. You know, there's so many pieces of artwork where people are like, they don't understand it. They don't get it. Like, what is this? It looks just like a bunch of jumbly blobs on a canvas, and I can look at it and I can see what they were feeling and what they were doing and how they were--what they were trying to convey through the art. So to me, it's--art is emotions. If that makes any sense.

[00:17:54] Lindsey Dinneen: It absolutely does. That's a great answer and a unique one. I haven't heard it expressed quite like that before, so I love it. Thank you. Okay. So what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:18:07]The most important role of an artist... being themselves and being their authentic selves. I think, you know, artists take a risk at everything that they do because you could be easily rejected or easily accepted. And if you show your authenticity through your work in anything that you do, not just art, but I mean, we're talking about art right now, but to show your authenticity through your work, makes it very valuable.

[00:18:38]That's another great answer. Okay. And my last question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who, when they share their art with the world, that you know a little bit of context behind it now. So whether that's a title or program notes or what inspired this piece or whatever. So you have a little bit of context going into it as an audience or as a observer. Versus exclusive being the artist shares their work and doesn't necessarily provide any context to it and just lets the observer take from it what they will, if that makes sense.

[00:19:28]Liza Lomax: I, so when I go into a museum, I go in and I see art. I don't read the little note cards or the little things, the little plaques next to it, because I like to see the art for what it really is, and I don't like to be influenced on what, where, what time it was done or what year it was done or who it was done by, or what the explanation was. So I like to look at it and just look at it for the actual art. I don't read anything about the artists. So I would say exclusive, because it's like, to me, I want to see the art. I don't necessarily need to know about the history or the background or why it was created. I just want to see just the art.

[00:20:15]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. All right. Excellent. Well, and you have a really unique perspective, I think too, because like you shared with us earlier--when you look at a piece of art or experience art, you are able to draw from it emotions and feelings and all those kinds of things that maybe someone who isn't as empathic would find. So that's a pretty unique perspective too, which I love. So, yeah! Well, again, thank you so much for being a part of this. Is there a way for us to get in contact with you and learn more if anyone would like to do so?

[00:20:54] Liza Lomax: Yes. So I am, of course, on all the platforms. I'm on Facebook under Liza Lomax. I'm on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn. My website's being redesigned right now but you can check it out and check more of my story out. It's just lizalomax.com. But the best way to get ahold of me is probably Facebook. And then, my email address is just lizalomax77@gmail.com.

[00:21:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you, Liza. Well, thank you also to all of you who are listening to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am at the moment, I would love for you to share it with a friend or two, and please feel free to get in touch with Liza. She is absolutely wonderful as you can tell from just this brief conversation with her. Obviously she has a lot to share with the world and give, and we will catch you next time.

[00:21:52] Do you have a story to share with us? We would love that so much, and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

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In this episode, I welcome Elna VanGreuning! Elna graces us with a masterclass on the history of lace and lacemaking, from its very beginnings to how we can get involved today. Originally from South Africa, Elna brings her rich knowledge of lace and her own experiences in lacemaking to dive deep into one of the loveliest art forms.

The International Organization of Lace: https://internationalorganizationoflace.org/

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Arteza: Arteza makes art supplies affordable to creators with every budget. Art is about the journey. They provide the tools – you steer the way. Click here and use promo code PB8PROMO for 8% off all purchases!

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 16 - Elna VanGreuning

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:23] Elna VanGreuning: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey, and I am so excited to share with you a wonderful, wonderful guest that I get to have on my episode today. Her name is Elna VanGreuning, and she is originally from South Africa. And I'll let her tell you a little bit more about herself, but I have the privilege to call her my aunt adopted. I had the privilege of growing up, and getting to know her, and have many, many fond memories of spending afternoons at her lovely house, having tea, learning the correct way to have tea. I just am so blessed to have her in my life, but I am extremely excited to share her with you all today. She is a very, very accomplished woman in many avenues. And one of the things that she does is lace making. And so I'm just thrilled to hear all of her stories about that. So thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:01:36]Elna VanGreuning: Thank you, Lindsey. I feel honored that you even invited me for this. Yes, I'm from South Africa, but I've been in the US now almost 26 years. I'm also a US citizen. So I am very much American and love living in the Reston area. So a little bit about my life, in how I got involved in that. Way back in 1975, when I was a young school teacher, a friend of mine, in the middle of the country that actually taught lace classes and she started with that. And then we got married in 1976 and she made us a beautiful lace handkerchief embroidered with all the details.

[00:02:26] So that's how I initially even got to know about lace, and how you make lace. Previous to that, I was in Belgium in 1974 and I went to Bruges and Brussels and saw all the beautiful lace, little shops and was intrigued, but I didn't really know how you make it. So then time went on and we ended up in Toronto in 1980, for 18 months. And I couldn't work. I couldn't get a work permit. Only my husband could. And I got bored, looked at the newspaper and found a woman, a Dutch woman, teaching lace. So I thought, well, I might as well try this. Well, I've got nothing else to do. And that's how I started making lace. So when I went back to South Africa in 1981, it was wonderful to connect with my friend, and we started this lace adventure together. And I got very involved. I even taught lace for quite a while, had quite a few students until we came to the US in 1994. Since then I've not made a lot of lace. Life just took over here. I did connect with a lace group in Reston for a while, and then it sort of dwindled, but I've got a nice lace collection that I've put together over the years and added to. And so, I've always kept my interest and therefore, you know, that's how I got involved in lacemaking.

[00:04:09]Lindsey Dinneen: That is wonderful. I did not know that story. I love the fact that you, were bored, so you just decided to take up this new adventure. That's amazing.

[00:04:19]Elna VanGreuning: Yes, I've always loved doing handcrafts. I was a home ec[onomics] teacher. So you can imagine that I did weaving, and I took a weaving course in Toronto as well. But lace was sort of the unusual thing, and I thought, Whoa, this is on my doorstep. Why, why don't I pursue this? So I've loved embroidery and all of this, and I also think that handiwork for me, it's really been a wonderful-- it's a pastime, but also it's a way of relaxing. There's a way of expression expressing your feelings and your artistic capabilities. I can't draw, but I can do fine handwork and appreciate it. So I think that's the way I, I really enjoyed getting involved in lace and it's, it's so beautiful for the eye in any way. And you can sit down, work on your pillow with beautiful classic music in the background, or sit outside and enjoy fresh air so it is something you can take with you. I mean, you can take your pillow when you go to a friend or you can take it on vacation. Not, not practical if you're flying, but if you're driving in a car. So yes, that's, that's how I got involved.

[00:05:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. You have some stories to share with us about the origin of lace and different techniques or styles, but I would love for you to take it away because I am very excited to learn along with everyone else.

[00:05:52]Elna VanGreuning: Okay, thank you. Well, let me start off with the history of lace. Lace is indisputably a very old form of art. It's rather sad that very little is known about the birth of lace as we know it today and the existing resources are very few and very superficial. Indeed the history of lace cannot be separated from the history of clothing construction. And as a matter of fact, fashion has always driven the lace production, whether it was hand or machine lace, as we know it today. It's obvious that humans from the earliest times had a need or longing to decorate clothing, and it never changed or diminished. Lace thus evolved out of this need. The Egyptian lace making techniques unfortunately disappeared for many centuries. It was only through pictorial evidence from the late 15th century we could see that simple platitude laces appeared on costumes, for example. And, when printing became popular or available, we now know of books. There was one book, 1561, printed in Zurich that mentioned the amount or the look of lace that was actually ordered from Italy in the previous century, in the 15th century.

[00:07:20] So we know that after the Middle Ages, lace definitely came back. Lace was surely inspired by the open effect of the renowned Venetian embroidery . In time, instead of cutting out expensive fabric, foundation threads were laid onto a temporary backing and with a needle, a form of lace was made and it was called Punto in Aria. This was all done in Venetia, or Venice, because we know that the Venetians were very big on trading with the East. And on the Island of Burano just outside of Venice today, they still have a whole community of lacemakers that actually makes this. The Venitian trade with the Far East also brought very fine silk threads to Europe.

[00:08:11]There is no proof that Asia ever made lace. They did various forms of embroidery, but not lace. So therefore the Italians still claim that they inspired and birthed lacemaking. The lace that they made in Venice at that time with a needle then became a known as needle lace, which is very different from bobbin lace that I'll talk about later. So bobbin lace generally is much quicker to work than needle lace. And skilled workers were soon able to copy needle lace designs. So yes, bobbin lace was inspired again out of needle lace. Bobbin lace uses multiple threads, which are wound around wooden or bone bobbins, and therefore it's called bobbin lace. So that's the big distinction, between the two. Although the Italians even claim that they started bobbin lace, the first history book on lace, it's called--it's a very famous book-- it's called "The History of Lace" by a Mrs. Palliser was written at the end of the 1800s. It clearly states the fact that we will never know the truth.

[00:09:33] We'll never know whether the Italian started the bobbin lace or whether the Belgians, the flounders at that stage, started the lace. So regardless of the country of a region of bobbin lace, it did spread rapidly and was established as one of the most delicate of all handmade art forms ever. So, I mean, there might be people that would say no jewelry could be finer or whatever, but that's from the lace makers perspective. The first lace was very simple and not so delicate because of the thicker thread and very simple geometric forms that were used. But as skills were refined and much thinner threads became available, artists soon produced very complex and elaborate patterns. Lace-making reached a high point with the Brussels Point d'Angleterre. Or in Dutch, it was called bloom work, which means flower work. It was very delicate.

[00:10:39]So by the 1550s, lace-making became a very common career choice and not only a pastime skill. Initially convents took the lead in making the lace and also taught lace-making. Women were involved in spinning, weaving, and embroidery since the Middle Ages and therefore those industries, which were all home-interest industries, were well-established by the time the woman got involved in lace-making, so they were already set up for this. And I also think that some of the weaving the big tapestry were then taken over by companies and took the work away from the women in, in their home industry. So lace making filled this void at the time. Many pictorial evidences exist to show us of women either busy spinning, weaving, making lace, or depicting these articles in paintings and drawings.

[00:11:40] Paintings of rich embroidered tablecloths. And clergy attire are plentiful. If we look through the art books and, and art history, we learn about that as well. The elegant, elaborate clothing decoration reached a peak under Louis the 16th. And Marie Antoinette, obviously, and that was 1774 to 1792, and paved the way for lace to become very sought after. From Italy amongst the nobility they had this need and greed for all these wonderful things. So that also stimulated the production of very fine fabrics and decorations. In 1665, there were already 10 different kinds of known lace, of which the Belgium Mechelen, which was a little town just outside of Brussels, lace was by far the most popular for the nobility, because it was considered the prettiest of laces--fine, transparent and effective. In 1834, there were eight houses where Mechelen lace was produced. So that's just more, more or less, an idea where they started and how it spread. So I don't know whether you have any questions

[00:13:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. That's really helpful to have a little bit of a background and, and who knew there was such tension about it? I, that is so interesting to me.

[00:13:17] Elna VanGreuning: Thank you. Well, since, Belgium, and I'm going to switch between Belgium and Flanders and I'll explain in a minute why, is generally seen as the country that produced the most and the most beautiful of all laces throughout the ages. I'm going to talk about Belgium lace first of all, but that doesn't mean that the French lace wasn't special, that Spain didn't have lace Germany Switzerland, Scandinavia, Russia, and so forth. I can't talk about all the countries. Certainly the French lace was also something in that time. French lace in particular was beautiful, but not such a huge industry because of the religious persecution, because of the Edict of Nantes, and then the revolution. So it was never as big as the Belgium lace. So, Flanders became Belgium in 1839 and, you know, there were also change in, in borders, because at some stage some cities like Mechelen was in France, and then it became part of Belgium, and Brabant was first in Flanders and then it became part of Holland, so it's really difficult to know which, which part was where when, but, so just excuse me, if I, I mix between Flanders and Belgium.

[00:14:44] Paintings from the low countries, as early as the 15th century, depicts people dressed in clothes, richly adorned with lace. A series of engravings around 1585 shows lacemakers sitting at their lace pillows and working and, well, the interesting part of you, I can't show you the pictures, but if you see the pictures, they were young girls, they were not older women. And I'm going to tell you why in a little bit. In 1651, the Flemish poet, Jacob Van Eyck, wrote a famous poem about the lace maker in Latin. I'm gonna read it to you in English because I just love it. And it goes like this: "Of many arts, one surpasses all. The threads woven by the strange powers of the hand. Threads, which the dropping spider would, in vain, attempt to imitate and which Pallas [which was the Greek goddess, Athena] would confess she has never known." And she was the goddess of handicraft. So that's a, I think really a nice way of expressing. It's almost like a spider web, but it's very fine.

[00:16:06] Lindsey Dinneen: That is beautiful.

[00:16:07] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. Yes. I do love that one. Because of the religious prosecution. Flanders lost many skilled lacemakers, and in 1698, legislation was even passed in, in Flanders, which kept the employer responsible if his employee fled the country. So you had to tell them why she left and where she went to, because it was such a big industry for the country.

[00:16:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness.

[00:16:40] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. Now I'm going to give you a few statistics to prove how large this lacemaking industry in Belgium was. Up to 1900, the lace industry was the most valued home industry in Belgium because it accounted for a sizeable portion of foreign currency flowing into the country. As early as 1785, it was recorded that the average lacemaker was was technically blind by the age of 30, and children as young as five years old were signed up for apprenticeships. At age 10, girls earned enough to financially support themselves. It wasn't fully grown girls. In 1768, England, England alone ordered 250,000 pounds worth of lace from Flanders and by 1861, one out of every four women were involved in the lacemaking industry in Belgium. That high demand for lace in England and Europe quickly led to an embargo on the implant and resulted in a substantial and dangerous Black Market. Between 1820 in 1836, at least 40,000 dogs were used to carry lace around their skinny bodies, and then covered in a second layer of fur from his deceased dog, between Belgium and France alone. They were very various other ways of smuggling that you also read about. But I thought this one is just a particularly horrid one because the French, even after the revolution-- mean, Napoleon also loved lace. And if you go to the Island of Murano, there's a shop that also is a museum and they have examples of some of the lace worn by Napoleon. So, yes, the revolution didn't complete it, it stopped the lace making in France, but not the need and the love for lace.

[00:18:59] Okay. Back to Flanders, the first Flanders lace exported to England was named Brussels point d'angleterre or point English, as I mentioned earlier. Because it was specifically exported to England and loved by King Charles the second. And in 1662, the English parliament issued a law to prohibit the import of this lace. And this was actually the height of the production of this point d'angleterre because of the English loving this, you know, they created a demand and a market but it was soon stopped because of the English. This boosted the English lace making industry when they prohibited the import of the Brussels lace, but they still had a long road ahead to compete with the quality and the quantities of lace made in Brussels. As a matter of fact, the British never achieved this milestone King Charles, the second, between 1660, and 1685, he ruled. He even invited some Flemish lacemakers to come and live in England, but that was really not a successful venture. The lace traders kept on smuggling huge quantities of best and finest Flemish lace, and sold it as English point lace, and not Brussels point d'angleterre. In 1678, one of the boats smuggling these goods-- there were tons of colors, handkerchiefs, gloves, fans, you name it and 750,000 yards of lace on this boat that was seized across the English channel. Nobody knows what they did with it, but it was a huge loss for the Flanders industry because they didn't get the lace back and the British didn't pay either. So, there was a war on a lot of fronts, not only on the political front.

[00:21:01] Right from the beginning they only used linen thread produced in Belgium. The linen threads were so fine, it could hardly be felt between the fingertips. Linen was kept in dark and damp rooms where it was spun, stored, and used to avoid direct sunlight and from it becoming dry and brittle. The working rooms were often quite dark and only lit by one candle encircled by glass balls filled with water to reflect the candlelight. So you wonder why they got blind at age--they were technically blind at age 30, because they've worked at very low lighting. And in 1859, just an example, one pound of Belgium linen would cost 500 pounds. That's the thread. And if they use it produce lace, the lace was only worth 700 pounds. So you can imagine that the linen was much more expensive than what the girls were paid to make this lace. They only made, made 200 pounds for all these hours of work.

[00:22:14] Linen was, therefor, far too expensive for the British machine manufacturers, and they soon switched to only using cotton. So after the industrial revolution in England, you know, there was no need for lacemakers. The machines did the lace, but they couldn't really afford making lace with linen because it was too expensive. So this was one of the reasons why Belgium lace remained high in demand, amongst the well-to-do, because the cotton was much paler in color than the natural linen and it wasn't as durable as linen. So to mimic the color of linen, the machine manufacturers, even dipped cotton lace into coffee to see whether they can't mimic the real linen look and entice their customers. But, people with money still preferred the handmade Belgium lace and the trade went on whether it was allowed or smuggling.

[00:23:21]Well, a last story about Belgium lace is about the Mechelen lace. Mechelen was a little town just outside of Brussels, and it also made very fine laces and the distinctive characteristic of this lace, was the use of this thicker, silk thread that they interweaved. It was called a gimp thread and this made it special. It looked very different. And it was woven on a net background. The production of this lace also ceased in 1834, and by then there were only eight producers of the Mechelen lace. And one of the reasons for this was because by that time knit or tool, as we know, it, was actually a machine produced in France. So, that's how, you know, it took over the place, and people used a machine-made knit to do embroidery that looked like lace and was cheaper obviously.

[00:24:25] Churches in Belgium are the fortunate and proud owners of some of the most exquisite and valuable existing lace collections in the world and Bruges are today seen as the lace center of Belgium and a lot of tourists go there. It's a pretty little town, but it also has a lot of lace shops. Not everything is made by hand though, but they've got the museums, and it's actually ironic because Bruges wasn't the largest lace making center, but it just evolved as such. So that's more or less the story about the Belgium lace.

[00:25:08]Lindsey Dinneen: That is amazing. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing.

[00:25:13]Elna VanGreuning: So now I can tell you a little bit about the English lace, because it also became a very popular pastime actually in 1976. It was actually in England that lacemaking really bloomed again. So the declaration of the Edict of Mantis in 1595 caused Protestants, known as huguenots, to flee from France and Flanders because they were both Catholic countries to various corners of the world. For almost 200 years, this flight of huguenots went on. In the process, the skill of lacemaking went with them. And that's actually how it went to Holland. Many went through Holland and that gave their lacemaking a boost. Holland did have lacemakers because they were so close to Belgium. But it was never at the scale and the quality of Belgium. So with the lacemakers fleeing France and Flanders, many of them went to Holland and many went to England. After some of the huguenots settled in England, in 1695, there were more than a hundred thousand lacemakers from France in England. During the French revolution, the lace schools and linen factories closed and stock got so low, which then boosted the English lacemaking industry and forced the British to import more lace from Belgium because they couldn't provide in all the lace for the nobility. King Charles the second loved lace and he ordered 600 yards of lace to adorn his nightgowns alone. Only for his nightgowns.

[00:27:04] Lindsey Dinneen: That is amazing and very lavish

[00:27:08] Elna VanGreuning: That's right. So when you watch these old movies again, just watch and see whether you see the lace, because it's there, but unfortunately, with the industrial revolution, machine-made lace soon took over the handmade lace industry in England. And by 1765, as I said earlier, the net background was made by a machine . And so handmade lace in England changed into a hobby, and not a career, and died for almost a hundred years. There were hardly anybody making handmade lace in England. Until the 1970s, it surfaced again. So that's just a little bit about the lace in England and the Victorian Albert Museum in London, if you ever get a opportunity to go there, they also have a magnificent collection of lace from all over the world and it's worth visiting. So what about America? I'm sure you're wondering, did it ever come to America?

[00:28:15] Lindsey Dinneen: I am wondering,

[00:28:17]Elna VanGreuning: So, it indeed did. Lacemaking was brought to America by European immigrants and soon became a popular hobby in several communities. One of the earliest and best known lace home industries was in Ipswich in Massachusetts. They started in 1639 and by the 18th century, they were quite a home industry and produced beautiful lace as well. And it was in the fashion of the European lace, mostly torsion. It's still a beautiful lace. Today, there still is an international organization of lace in the US and most states still have an active Guild. So if anybody would be interested in seeing what they're doing and, you know, I noticed that the Guild here in Virginia has a big exhibit right now in Culpepper, but because of COVID-19, you know, the museum there's closed. So that is something to go and visit after everything opens. And then in 1907, Mrs. James W. Pinscher suggested to the Smithsonian Institute to put together a collection of lace. She and some of her well-to-do friends collectively donated or loaned 500 pieces of lace to the National Museum of American History. And it is still there today. So not all of it's on display, but they are the proud owners of the lace. So, yes, it is something that you could even make in the US and get involved in.

[00:30:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wonderful. Well, first of all, thank you. That was deep and rich. And I really appreciate knowing more 'cause, I shared with you beforehand, this is new to me and I'm very excited to learn more. So first of all, thank you for that. . So if somebody is interested in getting involved, is there a good way to start that you recommend?

[00:30:30]Elna VanGreuning: I would recommend going through the International Organization of Lace in the US and then you can go to your state, contact them, but I think they also give places where you can order all these things, but you'll have to get a good book. It's the books that you can teach yourself. It's not impossible to teach yourself, but it would be wise to, or helpful to join a guild. And I'm sure most guilds will have somebody that loves teaching other people the skill.

[00:31:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. And then do you have any particular recommendations if someone maybe isn't able to start, you know, making it themselves, but they would like to support artists who do-- do you know of any kind of resource or would you also suggest going to the guild to kind of try to find those makers where we can maybe support them?

[00:31:31]Elna VanGreuning: Yes. I think the guild, the International Organization would be the best place to start, because, I saw exhibit of people in Sutton, Virginia, over Christmas through the guild. They had an exhibit and they actually sold some of their products. So they may made little Christmas decorations, crosses, they even had Easter eggs adorned with lace. So people are not necessarily making typical lace anymore because very few people would wear, or use lace fans and things like that. So when you get a beautiful pattern--I've made quite a few lace collars. I framed them and I framed things for my grandchildren.

[00:32:15] Or you can make a handkerchief, and have it embroidered with the dates of somebody getting married. So yes, you can make practical things, but I think people are thinking of adapting the lace and making more, you know, things for the house that, or you could use, or that's more fashionable today. And, the various guilds would be more productive and more and more initiative. I wouldn't be able to say--some would be more traditional and only do the old patterns, and they're beautiful old patterns. I mean, if you see it, you would just wish, "Oh, I'll make two yards of lace." I made 14 yards of lace for my children's christening dresses. That's, you know, 37 years ago. Maybe people still do that, or people that are into making porcelain dolls, they make their own clothes. They would also make the lace for those, for the dresses. I'm sure there are a lot of uses for that.

[00:33:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. Yes, that's helpful. Okay, okay. Well, I have a couple questions that I love to ask my guests--just personal opinion about art. Is that okay if I ask a couple of questions?

[00:33:25] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. Yeah, sure.

[00:33:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:33:34]Elna VanGreuning: I think art is anything that's so beautiful for the eye that you either wanted to touch it, hear it, see it, you know, and you could even eat it, if it's like, in cake. So it's something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:33:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I love that answer. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:34:02]Elna VanGreuning: I think they give other people a way of escaping. Not everybody, you know, has the talent to be an artist. Or maybe everybody's got the talent. We just don't work on it, maybe. You know, I always think I can't sing or draw. So therefore I want to, you know, stress that art can be different forms. And I think artists brings a form of art to us that maybe we cannot make ourselves or participate in, but can appreciate. And I think it's very important because I think we can't just work all the time. I think it's a stress. It helps with stress and I just think for your own psyche, it's wonderful to enjoy something beautiful.

[00:34:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Alright. And my last question--I can define my terms a little bit in it--but, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So what I mean by exclusive is, an artist create something and they share it with the world and they allow whoever is experiencing it to take from it what they will. So the artist doesn't necessarily provide any context or background to what they've produced. Versus inclusive, meaning that the artist shares maybe their intention behind it. What inspired it? Just so that you kind of as an audience, or viewer or whatever, have a little bit to at least start with when you are evaluating it for yourself.

[00:35:44] Elna VanGreuning: Yes. I think a little bit of both, you know? Sometimes when you go to a museum and you just stand in front of something, you can see "Oh, this is a painting of a river and it's a sunny day" and you can make your own conclusion. But other times you might look at something and because you don't know the history or the setting, you can't fully appreciate it. So therefore, when I go to a museum, I always love taking a tour because I always feel I learn so much and I see it in a different perspective. So, I think there's a place for both.

[00:36:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Okay. Wonderful. Well, thank you.

[00:36:29]Elna VanGreuning: Thank you very much, Lindsey.

[00:36:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Well, I just want to say again, thank you so, so, so much for taking the time today to share with us about lace and its origins and how we can participate. I just want to say in general, thank you also for creating art and sharing it. And, I appreciate that you make the world a more beautiful place. So thank you.

[00:36:56] Elna VanGreuning: Thank you very much. Bye bye.

[00:37:00]Bye!

[00:37:01] Lindsey Dinneen: If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:11] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out, or dabbling or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do have options for every budget level. They provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome my husband, Kevin Dinneen! He shares about his first time attending a professional dance company's performance, and how there was no "guidebook" for dating a professional dancer before he wrote one.

Read "Flowers Are a Thing": https://www.facebook.com/notes/vidadance/flowers-are-a-thing/1521301624845093/

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your podcast interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Artist's Edge: The Mission of Artist’s EDGE is to raise the level of Business Intelligence, Life Skills and Emotional Intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, their creativity, and their unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Click here to access all courses!

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 015 - Kevin Dinneen

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I am your host Lindsey, and I am excited to be sharing a story from my special guest today, and that is my very own husband, Kevin. Welcome, Kevin. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:47] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:49] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. So I know that you have a social story about art that you'd like to share with us today.

[00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: I do. Unfortunately, this is going to be a rerun for you.

[00:01:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay!

[00:01:00] Kevin Dinneen: You lived it and, and then you heard it several times. but I'd like to tell the story of when I was thrown into the deep end of attending ballet. This might surprise you all: there's not a primer out there. There is now because I created it. So check that out later, "Flowers are a Thing" on Facebook. Look it up. But there was not a primer or a, how to, or a, what do you call those--quick-start guide--there wasn't a, there wasn't anything.

[00:01:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:01:32] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:01:33] Lindsey Dinneen: So you were going to come see a show of mine. Actually, we had just met.

[00:01:41] Kevin Dinneen: You got that right! That's funny because that's an alert from what is, what is that app?

[00:01:47] Lindsey Dinneen: It's a text messaging app. So yeah, it has nothing to do with what's going on right now, but good timing. Perfect timing.

[00:01:55] Kevin Dinneen: Right. Okay, so let's backtrack. So the first day I met Lindsey was at a church function, and I happened to learn that she was a professional dancer and that she would be performing soon. And, I decided, "Hey, it would be cool if a group of us, that were in the church group , went and, and saw the performance." I decided to go ahead and organize this thing. And we got like six people to go in, and buy tickets and go support her. Now, the interesting thing is that that was the first day that I met her. Then I started like planning it and running by like, "How do I promote it? Does this email do it justice? I don't know what I'm talking about. Did I use the words?" Right. And, and that was like a week or two in maybe?

[00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I don't, yeah. I don't even know if it was that long because we met, and then I want to say either that night or the next day you sent me an email asking if you had the right wording or if I would change anything, it was really pretty quick because the performance was only a couple of weeks away at that point.

[00:03:10] Kevin Dinneen: So, so fast forward to the day before, slash day of, I really started to like Lindsey and I had already decided that I was going to ask her out. But she's got this upcoming performance that was going to be at the Kauffman Center for Performing Arts. That's the legit place in Kansas City. There is not a better professional theater anywhere. I mean, it's amazing. It rivals the one in Sydney, right?

[00:03:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, the Sydney Opera House for the acoustics.

[00:03:47] Kevin Dinneen: So, anyway, so I wasn't gonna ask you out and throw you off your game, and either, either burden you with having to let me down or be so excited that you couldn't think about your work.

[00:04:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:04:00] Kevin Dinneen: So, yeah. I only think on the opposite ends of the spectrum, apparently.

[00:04:05] Lindsey Dinneen: It wasn't a happy medium where I'm just like, "Yeah, this works."

[00:04:08] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. "Well, whatever--this dude? Nevermind."

[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Details.

[00:04:14] Kevin Dinneen: So a little while before the performance, like a week before I decided that I was going to ask you out. Then I found out that your parents and your brother and sister-in-law were going to be at the performance as well.

[00:04:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes.

[00:04:34]Kevin Dinneen: So now I'm worried, 'cause I've got to make a good impression because I like her. So I have to make a good impression on her family. And the night before I start thinking, you know, is it customary to do something? And I, and flowers come to mind. And I, I think of the opera and there's roses being thrown on the stage, and ice skating, they throw all sorts of stuff, stuffed animals and flowers and all that. And, so I got to thinking is, "Am I supposed to do that? Would it be weird if I did, or would it be weird if I didn't?" I didn't know the answer, so I Googled it and I remember some of the images coming up where little girls getting flowers after a recital. And so I was then worried thinking, "Oh, maybe for dance, this is, you know, just for girls--and boys, I guess, but anyway--like little kids after a recital." And I just imagined like, giving you this bouquet of flowers and you're like, "Uh, did you miss where I said, I'm a professional?"

[00:05:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh no!

[00:05:48] Kevin Dinneen: "I am not a student at a recital." And then, you know, the other way around, I show up with nothing and she's like, "Oh, I guess he doesn't care."

[00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: You think in extremes.

[00:06:01] Kevin Dinneen: Again? Yeah, yeah. It's either. Yeah. So, I got to thinking and I thought, "Okay, so let's do, let's do something, but we don't have to fall into the flower or no flower category and you can do your own thing." So I thought about the conversation that we had had where I found out that she liked Granite City Brewery's chocolate cake. There was her favorite cake.

[00:06:27] Lindsey Dinneen: It's amazing.

[00:06:28] Kevin Dinneen: And so I go and watch the performance, and then I didn't bring the cake in beforehand because I thought, you know, this is a fancy theater. Oh, also I'd never been there. I didn't know the rules or anything. And I figured, you know, it's a little bit self-obsessed if I called to see if I can bring cake , like, "I know you've got a lot going on, but this is important. Can I bring cake? It's for a date? Thanks for taking my call."

[00:06:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:07:00] Kevin Dinneen: And so I didn't want to call to ask that. So, so I decided what I'll do is, I'll just leave it in the car. And then after the show, I'll just run out, grab it and bring it back. And, so I watched the show, Lindsey was awesome. And, then I meet her parents and her brother and sister-in-law and all that goes really well. And I was like, " Hey, I'll be right back." So I leave and I go out to the car, I grabbed the cake and then, I get back to the door and I go to go inside and the door is locked.

[00:07:37] Lindsey Dinneen: I forgot this part.

[00:07:40] Kevin Dinneen: The door is locked and there's no one around. So right now there's a cast party going on. Right? So, so the people that are gonna stay are going to be there for awhile and the people that have left, like they left a while ago. If they were going to leave, they were gone. And so I'm just, I'm stuck and I'm freaking out. And, I go all the way around this building. There are two entrances, right?

[00:08:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Mind you though, this is, this is a bit of a walk. It's a huge building.

[00:08:10] Kevin Dinneen: It's a huge building. And there's a back that's in the garage. So you have to go all the way around the garage and then around the building. And then, you know, the entrance is, is actually cut into the building. So I actually have to go a good four blocks. Right?

[00:08:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think so.

[00:08:29] Kevin Dinneen: A good four or five blocks. And so, I pass people on the street and they're--'cause I'm in a suit with this Granite City carry-out bag walking, like someone's chasing me.

[00:08:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and it is, you know, January, so it's freezing!

[00:08:44] Kevin Dinneen: And it was January, like 9:30 or 10:00.

[00:08:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably.

[00:08:49]Kevin Dinneen: So like I wonder what they thought my condition was or my situation was.

[00:08:54] Lindsey Dinneen: It's a cake emergency.

[00:08:55] Kevin Dinneen: A cake emergency-- so then I get around to the front of a building and, I see an, I don't know, he's an usher or what-- he sees me waiting there with a bag and I, I wave at him and he comes over and I said, I'm friends with a dancer, and I just ran out to my car and I got locked out. I am part of the after party upstairs. And he's like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, come on in." So I was like "Whew." I thought for sure I was going to have to, that this was going to be a whole thing. No, once you leave, you can't come back or something. And then I can see our successful relationship just melting away at that very moment because this usher took it upon himself to be a guard, sent me away, and all of my hopes and dreams were dashed. Anyway...

[00:09:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Anyway, the flair for the dramatic.

[00:09:45] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I get back and when I get back, it was perfect timing because Lindsey and her family were actually headed to the elevator to go downstairs, to leave, when I caught up. I actually don't remember what we talked about heading to the elevator, but I didn't mention anything about what was in my hand. And I saw you and I just totally forgot the dilemma that I had just been in. And, so we're riding down in an elevator, with Lindsey and her parents. And I remember her dad was on one side of her and her mom was on the other. And I said, "Oh, and I have this chocolate cake for you. And, and she smiled and we were really awkward, but luckily Lindsey was grinning ear to ear. And so we get out of the elevator and there's just like this, like probably 10 or 15 seconds where no one said anything.

[00:10:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, we were just awkwardly grinning at each other.

[00:10:44] Kevin Dinneen: And your parents are just watching.

[00:10:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, everyone else, 'cause there was a friend of yours also in the elevator with you and he was also just like, nobody kind of knew what to do.

[00:10:56] Kevin Dinneen: So, yeah, so we leave the elevator and I said, "Hey, so I was going to get your flowers, but I didn't know if flowers were a thing. And so, I thought I'd get you chocolate cake instead." And luckily Lindsey smiled and was like, "Chocolate cake is a thing too."

[00:11:16] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm pretty sure I affirmed that flowers indeed are a thing, but chocolate cake is a thing too. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great because it's now a tradition and kind of everybody who knows me as a dancer knows about this thing. So they'll even ask about it, like "When are you getting your cake at the end of the performance run?" And things like that, 'cause it's, it's always, it's a tradition now.

[00:11:44] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, and so since Lindsey is the Artistic Director, and runs a professional dance company. Whenever we have a cast party, then we always have chocolate cake that's for everyone.

[00:11:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And it's really fun, 'cause we get to share that story. And, yeah, I just remember thinking, you know, just grinning at you from across the elevator. 'Cause we were like on either side. And silence. And we're just like, transformed into these like super awkward, you know, love-struck teenagers. Like your relationship isn't even really happening yet, but we think we probably like it each other. Yeah, I think that was definitely proof though, for me anyway, that you, you liked me and that you paid attention. That was a big thing actually, 'cause you could have just been like, okay, I think she said the cake and got it from anywhere, you know? Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing your story about art, Kevin.

[00:12:40] Kevin Dinneen: Oh, and if anyone wants to hear more about that story...

[00:12:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Ah, yes.

[00:12:44] Kevin Dinneen: And they want to learn more--maybe, you know, we're speaking right now to someone who's in a similar place and aspiring to date a dancer. And you know, maybe you're not sure if it's for you, or you're not sure if you can hack it. Well, I do have some tips and best practices for courting and dating a professional dancer. So check out "Flowers Are a Thing" on Facebook and you will be more prepared.

[00:13:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. And, dancers will definitely get a kick out of it because you're going to relate to all of it too. So yeah. Enjoy.

[00:13:24] Kevin Dinneen: Bobby pins has its own section.

[00:13:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. And that should be enough right there as we all know, but, yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks, Kevin. And, a couple of quick questions, if you don't mind.

[00:13:38]Kevin Dinneen: Oh, you're not going to ask me the questions I helped you come up with you.

[00:13:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah, I am. Okay.

[00:13:43] Kevin Dinneen: Okay.

[00:13:45] Lindsey Dinneen: How do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:13:52] Kevin Dinneen: Okay, so to me, I think art is, is taking some base components, some raw material and forming that raw material into something that a viewer or listener or someone experiencing that in whatever shape or, or vessel medium that might be, and something that enhances their lives. Whereas you take this, there's a piece of paper and this pen and separately, you glance over it, but you take those things and you combine that into a, into a moving-- I don't mean moving physically, but something that moves the person that sees it. And that is what art is. You have these, these raw materials that you create an experience from, and I think that's art and it's it's on every--it doesn't have to be happy. It doesn't have to be sad. It doesn't have to be hard to understand. It doesn't have to be easy to understand. It's just creating something moving from raw materials.

[00:15:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I like that answer. That was awesome.

[00:15:09] Kevin Dinneen: I just came up with that by the way.

[00:15:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that was seriously off the fly, because we had come up with these questions a while ago, but I don't think he thought they would be used against him, so to speak. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:15:27]Kevin Dinneen: You know, I'm going to kind of cheat because I think it's up to each individual artist, and I think all of the roles of art are important. So you can think of the role of an artist portraying a social issue to bring about positive change. That's so important, but if you have an artist who is really gifted and really enjoys entertaining, a lighthearted entertainment, then I think that that's where they need to go. Then that is just as important of a role as, you know, bringing a social change or whatever, 'cause that's also a social change actually. And maybe, maybe an artist feels that he or she is is called to educate through art or inform through art. I think that they are all important and I feel like it's important for each artist to embrace his or her passion, and not conform to what they were, what he or she was told is art.

[00:16:32] Oh, it's not art if, you know, people can understand it. Or it's not, it's not art unless it's on canvas, or it's not art, unless it's to the point where it gets into a museum, or whatever it is that that people are told is not art. If you're it, whatever it is, I think whatever an artists' passion is, I think it's important for them to play that role. 'Cause they're going to do it better than if they were doing something else and they're going to do it better than someone else who has a different passion as well. So I think they're all important. And the most important thing is to follow your passion.

[00:17:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. Okay. Final question. Should art be exclusive or inclusive? Exclusive meaning that the artist does his or her job, so to speak and then, it's up to the individual to interpret it without any kind of assistance, whether that's knowing the reason behind the piece or, you know, what inspired it or whatever. Versus inclusive meaning that more people would be able to understand it because the artist is going to express the reasoning behind it, or the significance of the mediums they've chosen.

[00:17:50] Kevin Dinneen: So for exclusive, this would be, I create this piece, and all I ever let anyone know about it is--let's say it's a painting. They just see the painting. And that's all I ever say about it. Whereas inclusive would be, if you're not maybe seeing things like I do, this is a painting that was brought on from the time I was in a car accident, so you'll notice that a lot of the edges are, are harder. Makes me think of like, you know, whatever it's things like that, like explaining the piece, there may be a lacquered by the meaning or audible track. You put the headphones on. And it's me talking about my process and stuff like that. Right?

[00:18:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. So not simply, you know, this is "Watercolor on Canvas," which it might be useful, but more about the piece.

[00:18:41] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. My answer is a, is a super hard inclusive. Just because I haven't been able to enjoy a lot of pieces of art because I didn't know what I was supposed to take from it. I, you know, I didn't understand-- boy, there's a lot of anger. I can, I can see really violent stuff here. And I, but I don't know. I don't know why. And I don't know if this person is justified. I don't know what's going on. For me, for an artist not to explain what's going on and say, "Oh, well, you get what you want to get out of it." Well then most people don't get anything out of it . Or they don't get nearly as much as they would if they heard the story behind it or heard the process that created it. And I think that's very important. I don't understand when someone creates something, I don't understand why they wouldn't want everyone to be able to see it the way they're wanting it to be shown.

[00:19:58] Lindsey Dinneen: So to that point, do you feel that there's value though an artist creating a completely open-ended piece where even for themselves their intention behind it was to have a sort of, you know, vagueness?

[00:20:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. I understand the reason behind it, but it frustrates me just like every movie that ends without knowing if they're actually gonna be together or is he actually going to make it out alive? Yes, there's a storytelling element to that. And there's a feeling that it leaves you with of wanting more and this unresolved, whatever it is, that you're left with, that actually leaves a lasting impression. And I understand that that's a part of art, or can be, but it's frustrating to me. I would like to know what happens, you know, I'll go with you. I'll go with you on a story, but take me to the end. Don't leave me hanging.

[00:20:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Excellent. Well, thank you so much again, for being part of our podcast today. I am delighted to be able to feature that story. It's a pretty fun one, of course I'm a little biased, but it did put him in a very good place right away for me to want to date him. I mean, I already was interested, but you'd shown up to something that was like, you barely knew me at the time and made the commitment and actually followed through. And then he brought me chocolate cake.

[00:21:30] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, fellows, fellows, listen.

[00:21:33] Lindsey Dinneen: For real, and cared enough to even have the question is, you know, our flowers a thing? Which most people, I don't even think it would cross their minds. So, yeah. But on that note, thank you so much for listening. And if you have your own stories to share with our listeners, we would love to hear them. So please feel free to contact me at any time and we will get you set up here in an interview. All right. Well, thanks again for listening and we'll catch you next time.

[00:22:03]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:22:13]Hey there, Artfully Told listeners. I wanted to share a really amazing resource with you that I think you will find invaluable. This website is called Artists' Edge. The mission of Artists' Edge is to raise the level of business intelligence, life skills, and emotional intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, creativity, and unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Artists' Edge is the education arm of Deborah Russell Coaching. And she is an awesome person who uses all of her business background and skills to really assist artists become who they want to be. She has a bunch of different product courses that you can go through as well as personalized coaching. If you are a wannabe artist that wants to turn their passion into a career, or is an already established artist that wants to take their career to the next level, she is the person to talk to you about this. So please follow the link in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Julie Ulstrup! She is a professional portrait photographer, currently based out of Fort Collins, Colorado. She shares her journey from her first experiences with art to doing landscape photography, and what inspires her with portrait photography now. (The episode cover image is one of her portraits, from her most recent project, 50 Over 50!)

Get in touch with Julie Ulstrup: https://www.julieulstrup.com/ | https://www.facebook.com/JulieUlstrupPhotography/ | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwcnAX2kZHvPCfQoJY75hng?reload=9&view_as=subscriber

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 014 - Julie Ulstrup

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:23]Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses, and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I am Lindsey. I am so excited that you are here listening, and I am very delighted to be welcoming our guest today. Her name is Julie Ulstrup and she hails from Fort Collins, Colorado, although she works all over the world and I can't wait to hear all about that. She is a portrait photographer, as well as so many other things, as so many people are multifaceted. And I cannot wait to share Julie's stories with you and also learn who she is and all that she brings to the world. So thank you so much for being here, Julie. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:14] Julie Ulstrup: Oh, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Lindsey, for hosting this podcast and you know, really bringing some stories about art into the world. I love it.

[00:01:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my pleasure. Well, I would love if you would take just a moment to maybe introduce yourself and share a little bit about, you know, who you are and how you've gotten involved in photography. And just a little bit about you, if that's okay.

[00:01:40] Julie Ulstrup: Yeah, that would be great. Well, like you mentioned, I am a portrait photographer and I have a portrait studio in Fort Collins, Colorado. So I, and I serve people from around the country. There are a lot of people who visit Colorado, obviously, and also around the world. I've got a full indoor studio and then this quintessential Colorado property where I have outdoor space that I can have very large groups. I, again, I do families, I do generation photography. I also do headshots and personal branding as well as high school seniors. So I think it's all the good stuff. I feel like photography is something that has, it's been part of my life really since I was born.

[00:02:34] My grandparents, my mom's family, owned the camera store before I was born. And so, and I was the oldest grandchild and I was photographed all the time. There are millions of things, probably pictures of me and then when I was in high school, I really developed this passion for photography and I loved it, went to college and I was a journalism major and took all of the photography classes that I could. And then even right after college, I worked for a very prestigious photography studio in Chicago, where I grew up. And then I decided I had to get a, like a "grownup job" and be a real grownup, do grownup things, you know, and I had done very well in photography. I worked for a photography studio in college, and this was back in the day when we took rolls of film with us and I photographed sorority and fraternity parties, but I just didn't really see it as--well, I didn't really see it as art and I also didn't really see it as a way that I could have a viable business and earn a living and have a lifestyle that I really wanted.

[00:03:53] So fast forward, 20 years later, actually maybe 30 years later. I always have loved photography. And I worked as a school counselor in a middle school, a high school and at the university level. And so really connecting with people is what I'm incredibly passionate about. You know, helping empowering people, helping people see who they are. And I realized that my love of photography and my love of really connecting with people and helping empower and inspire them could come together in a way that was really beautiful. So that's, that's the really short cliff notes version by very long photography journey that has been so incredible in my life. And. And I can't even imagine what my life would be like without it.

[00:04:58]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing about that. And I know that in your life that you've probably encountered many, many interesting things that are art-related that have spoken to you, but I would just love to hear--are there any particular moments that really stand out to you as being special or particularly meaningful?

[00:05:22] Julie Ulstrup: Yes. Well, like I said, I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and I had a phenomenal photography teacher. And he also taught at The Art Institute of Chicago. So every year we got--and I took every photography class that I could--every year, we got to go down to The Art Institute and, you know, walk around and see different things and do different things. Well, because he was an instructor there, we had special access to photographs that the general public did not have access to. And I will never forget one time. We went to, we were, we were down in this room, this conference room with a big table, and this was in my third year of photography. So it was all of the people who were the people who've taken photography for several years and we were passing around these photographs.

[00:06:23] I still get chills when I think of it, of, you know, it was just an incredible experience to, to see in real life, in my own hands in front of me, these photographs that I had only seen in books and really, yeah, powerful for me to be able to have that experience and realize the power of art at the time. I felt like landscape art really spoke to me. So, you know, again, some of the great landscape photographers of course, but the moment photography, just really creating that moment and finding that moment was just beautiful. So, yeah, that's a big one for me. Actually, I do have a funny story because I really thought that landscape photography was what I was super passionate about.

[00:07:18] And I went to see Tom Mandelson, who is a contemporary photographer. He's still alive. And he does a lot of photography in the mountains, in the United States, in the West. And he was giving this talk and he talked about, "Oh yeah, we were all sitting out in the blind, in the, you know, in the middle of the night, waiting for the sun to rise. And after about eight hours in the cold and in the swamp, most of the people had gone back for breakfast, but a couple of us had waited and like, this is where I got this beautiful shot." And I don't even remember if it was an Eagle or a moose or something. And I thought, "Yeah, I'm going to be the woman who's going back and having coffee."

[00:08:02] I'm not, I don't want to sit in a blind for eight hours like that. And then of course, Annie Liebowitz is one that I just love. She's an American photographer and she does a lot of very-- what are they? I would say she, she does a lot of magazine style shoots and does some really glamorous things. And she's also, I mean, she's photographed everybody from the Rolling Stones to the Queen of England. You know, so she's just pretty remarkable as well.

[00:08:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay. And so that was, you were saying that was in high school or I, or sorry, college.

[00:08:43] Julie Ulstrup: Yeah, that was high school, yup.

[00:08:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And then, so then how did that impact you as far as --well, actually, what I'm really interested in finding out is, so you, you were super inspired by landscape photography, but then you ended up as a portrait photographer. So how, how did that kind of weave about?

[00:09:05] Julie Ulstrup: Well, as I mentioned, for lack of a better way to say it, I got into grownup life, you know, because I, I had some jobs, and then I had some children, and I was able to stay home with them for awhile. And I had a, had a job at a university when my children were growing up, and I really became passionate about empowering young people to see further than they believed that they could see. And I always had this, you know, I took pictures of my children and I photographed my family throughout their life, growing up, that kind of thing. It never went away. And then I went through some really hard times in my life and I did the, I did some landscape photography and I enjoyed it.

[00:09:56] I loved it. I spend a lot of time outdoors in the Rocky Mountains are beautiful national parks, all of that kind of thing. And then I really decided, you know, I wonder if this is something that I could do more of, really find a different way. I was working as a school counselor in a high school and it can be exhausting and there came a time when there was a lot of paperwork involved and a lot of that, not really connecting with the students and their families, the way that I wanted to, because to me that was, and still is the best part about it. And so I started building my photography business. And started taking portraits, started working with families, started doing some high school seniors, some babies, that kind of thing.

[00:10:55] And really just started learning and growing my craft in a way that I could connect with people. And I think it was really even that experience that I mentioned just a few minutes ago with Tom Mangleson. Like, yeah, I don't want to sit in a blind for hours and hours to get a gorgeous photograph. Yes, I love being outdoors, but I would rather spend time with people and help them see the possibility of who they are. And that's what I do with my portrait work. I meet with people and I find out who they are and what makes them tick and the, the juicy, exciting parts about them. And. Photograph them. And I've had people come back and see their photographs after their session. And they're in tears because they have not seen themselves that way in a really long time, or they forgotten that part of themselves.

[00:12:05] So it's become a passion of mine to really help people because a lot of people, and you may know this, Lindsey, a lot of people, and it's more women--like, no, I don't want to be in the picture. No, you can't take my photograph now. Wait until I have my hair different or I get some new clothes or I lose 15 pounds. All of these things, there are all of these excuses why we don't show up. And so I help people to see that it's always good to show up and where you are right now is exactly where you should be right now and share that with the world.

[00:12:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's beautiful.

[00:12:52] Julie Ulstrup: Thank you.

[00:12:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and I love that. I love the fact that you're so passionate about empowering people and it's not-- it would be absolutely fine if it were just a job, so to speak, for you. But I love the fact that it's so much more to it for you. It's not just like, let me just take this picture and, you know, and, and make it the best it can be. It's who are you? And then let me show that to the world. I think that's incredible.

[00:13:22] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely, it is for me. So I love it.

[00:13:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I think that is absolutely just gorgeous. I love that. So you mentioned that you've actually been able to do this, not just locally to where you are, but you've actually been able to do this all over the world. Can you share more about that?

[00:13:44] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely. Well, I haven't yet traveled all over the world, but I have traveled quite a bit. I do have some clients--actually I client who lived here in Northern Colorado and she came for her photographs. And she was leaving the very next day to go back home to Dubai. And so she, we did her session and then we did a Zoom call and she chose her favorites. And she has said to me, "Oh, I would love if you could come here because there'd be so many women who want to be photographed." And anyway, so we, I did some photographs of her and also traveled some to other parts in the United States where I've done a family--I photographed a family reunion in Hawaii, and we've got some resorts here in Fort Collins and in the surrounding areas of the mountains where I've done some family reunion. I'm working with somebody in Chicago to do-- I've got a, a project going on right now. And I think we're going to be doing some sessions in Chicago, probably later this summer to really do some celebration of people. So that's more to come. That's really my, my goal to move forward with that when I travel and, and, you know, continue to use my studio here in Colorado and have people here because it's, it's pretty great.

[00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Do you happen to have, and I know this is going to be a very difficult question to answer, but maybe one or a couple photos that you've taken that really stand out to you as being meaningful in? And I'm sure that, you know, that's, that's just such a hard question to answer, but you know, just something that stands out to you as being particularly meaningful, like you just, there's a memory attached or there's just something that just pulls at you when you see this photo?

[00:15:53] Julie Ulstrup: Well, that's funny. And when you ask the question, you, you know, you predicated it with--well, it's really, it's like asking a mother who's, you know, which of your children is your favorite and I've...

[00:16:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly!

[00:16:05] Julie Ulstrup: I've taken thousands and thousands of photographs and what the stories are, what really evoke the emotion for me-- I had two of them, as soon as you said it, two of them came to mind. So I'll share those with you. I photographed a family last summer who was celebrating the parents were celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary and I actually photographed them with their children and their grandchildren on the day of their 50th wedding anniversary. And this was up in Estes Park, and the gentleman was not super healthy, but the family was really happy to be together. And we got these beautiful, beautiful photographs and they don't live in, in Colorado. So again, we did an online ordering session where they chose their favorites and I heard from the wife in February.

[00:17:11] And she said to me that her husband had passed away at Christmas. And she said, "Julie, I don't know, I don't know if you know this, but those photographs mean so much to me. And they've really helped me through what has been a very difficult time." And so that kind of story is, I'm so grateful that I could do that for this family and that they have those memories and that those grandchildren will remember, you know, we had some formal portraits. And then there were some of the kids just laughing on their grandparent's lap. And so that those children, they will have those for generations. You know, they'll be able to share those with their children and their grandchildren. And so that was a very powerful experience for me recently.

[00:18:06] And then I also do some work for a local nonprofit, and I do some photographs of women who were going through breast cancer treatment. And one woman came to me for portraits and she didn't have hair at the time. And she was not feeling well and she didn't want to be photographed. And she'll be like, "Well, look at me. I don't have any hair." And she wasn't excited about having her photograph taken, but she really wanted to give back to this nonprofit that had helped her. And we did a whole session with her, and she has therapy dogs, and she came back to see her photographs and they were all up on a wall. I have a wall that's, but I helped the matted and the prints made--I'm getting chills --when I tell the story. And she just, she just started crying. And she said the day that she came to see the photographs, she wasn't feeling well because she was still going through cancer treatment. And she said, these photographs show me that I'm very much alive.

[00:19:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow.

[00:19:25] Julie Ulstrup: Still beautiful. Oh, without my hair, even without the things that she thought of herself that made her beautiful and a woman and all of those things. So that was a very powerful experience as well.

[00:19:43]Lindsey Dinneen: That is incredible. I think you really, you completely nailed it when you were talking about it' s --I mean, you could, probably, from an artistic, from a professional standpoint, you could probably take the perfect photo of X, Y, and Z, but without the story behind it, it's not as impactful and, and, meaningful to you than when you have these incredible stories, like the two that you shared, where you, you were able to help somebody see a different perspective on them of themselves, or you were able to capture memories that will be cherished forever. And, and it's not just about this one, you know, photo or piece of art or music what's behind it. And I, I love that. That is so cool.

[00:20:38] Julie Ulstrup: Thank you. Yeah, I do too. I, interestingly, now there are all these stories coming up in my head like, "Oh, I wonder how this family's doing" or that, you know, when people who come in with their baby or, you know, even high school seniors, I think sometimes families think, "Oh, I don't want to do this. We're just going to do something, you know, we'll do something on our cell phones or we'll do a selfie, whatever," and they come and they have this experience to commemorate the passage of time, to commemorate something that's important to them--their children growing up. Their, you know, our families growing older. Our families having babies and changing, and, you know, that's such a precious thing in this world that we live in that can be so...whatever it is amazing, beautiful, busy, crazy hard. You know, that there are these moments that really are meant to be cherished and to take some time to, to celebrate that --I think is really valuable.

[00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And I think, you know, maybe one of the things that's great about having a professional photographer do it is that you, you bring a different perspective to the family and you're able to draw out something different than maybe the mom who's taking a photo on her cell phone, which there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, you're able to bring a little bit of a different take , I would say maybe as to, like you've talked about bringing out their personality or, you know, making sure that they know how special they are through your work, which is a unique way to go about it too. It's not just like, let's quickly capture this moment 'cause we need to. It's, let's cherish this moment 'cause we can.

[00:22:38] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely. Absolutely. And one of the things that I have found too is one of the reasons that people don't have professional portraits made is they feel like it's very stressful. They feel like, "Oh, I need to have the right clothes and I need to have the right hair. And I need all of, all of those things and where am I going to have it done?" Yeah. I really help people walk through the process and I make it very pain-free for them. You know, we talk about, "Okay, what are you going to wear? And what do you, you want to, what is the, do you want something casual? Do you want something formal? What's the feel that you want?" Even with a headshot, a person, oh, I, you know, you don't want to have a headshot. I'm just going to do-- Well, you know what, if you want to attract people into your business or whatever to watch your YouTube video or whatever it is. You want something that's going to be an expression of really who you are deeply and authentically, because like you said, Lindsey, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a quick cell phone picture. Those are fun. You want to do those. You want to capture those times, and having something that's a little more thought out and mindful of really who you are, where you are right now.

[00:24:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Well, Julie, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing about your work and about your heart behind your work. And, I really, really appreciate you sharing some stories with us about, you know, The reasoning behind what you do, but also just some of these amazing stories of lives being touched. So thank you for that. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:24:40] Julie Ulstrup: You're so welcome. Thank you for this platform to be able to do that. I love it, Lindsey.

[00:24:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.

[00:24:53] Julie Ulstrup: Of course.

[00:24:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art, or what is art to you?

[00:25:03] Julie Ulstrup: Hmm, well, I believe I, I believe art is an expression and a like a, an interaction between the person who creates it and the person who's looking at it. And it's, it's a shared, it's a shared experience.

[00:25:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:40] Julie Ulstrup: Well, I think it's to connect. To connect with my self as an artist who I am so that I can connect with the people in my art and the people who are looking at my art, experiencing my art for many, many years.

[00:26:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that connection is so important. Okay. And then for my final question--I'll explain a little bit about the terms that I'm going to use--do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is, so exclusive referring to an artist who creates a piece of, of art, whether that's, a photo or a dance or whatever it is and presents it to the world, but doesn't give much context behind it. So perhaps there's not necessarily even a title or a, the intention behind it or what inspired it or anything--just sort of here it is--and then up to whoever sees it to interpret it. Versus inclusive, meaning that the artist does share a little bit maybe about the intention behind it or what inspired it, or a funny moment that happened, or just provides a little bit of context so that the audience has that alongside the art.

[00:27:07]Julie Ulstrup: I think there's room for both of those, quite honestly. I think that sometimes when we create art--because I believe we are all artists, we're all creators--we might not even know what or why or how it came about. So I think there's room for that. And then I think there's also room for sharing my story around the creation of art. And I think that there is a difference for me as the artist and for the person whose portrait I'm taking. This is only in my case of art, but they will have a different interpretation around it. And often what I will do--when I work with my clients to see their portraits for the first time, I will be quiet --I will share my favorites of course, but I will let them experience it. And then I will share with them: "Oh, I love how we captured this expression and this part of you." So I think there's an exchange back and forth and sometimes having some context is really important. So I think there's room for both.

[00:28:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, thank you again so much. And if anyone wants to connect with you either to learn more about your work or just connect with you in some other way, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:28:48] Julie Ulstrup: Absolutely. My website is my name, julieulstrup.com, and I'm also on Facebook as Julie Ulstrup Photography. So that's another good way to connect with me. Either one would be great.

[00:29:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, thank you again, so very much. I'm a firm believer that when you share art with the world, you truly make it a better place. And so I just want to say thank you on behalf of myself at least, but also on behalf of the world for you sharing your, your love and your passion for photography with the world. Because I think what you do makes a difference and creates beauty. So thank you for that.

[00:29:34] Julie Ulstrup: You are welcome. Thank you, Lindsey.

[00:29:37] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Well, that is all for today. Thank you so much for joining us. And if this episode has left you as inspired as it has me, I would absolutely love for you to share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:58] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:30:09] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out or dabbling or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do you have options for every budget level, they provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally, you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Grace Strachan! Grace shares about her passion for the art of sending out greeting cards every single day, and the value of giving to give. She talks about the impact that a simple, heartfelt greeting card can have on someone's life.

Get in touch with Grace Strachan: https://www.sendoutcards.com/u/greetingswithgrace | gracestrachan2014@gmail.com

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 013 - Grace Strachan

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful.

[00:00:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey, I'm your host and so excited to be sharing more stories about art with you. And I am especially delighted today to have as my guest, Grace Strachan. She is an amazing person, super kind, thoughtful-- I can go on and on--very generous, just a wonderful, wonderful lady. And I'm so excited to have her on because she has a unique platform for the way that she shares art with the world. And, I don't want to spoil it, so I won't give too much away, but I am just thrilled to have her on the show. And just to share a little bit about what her experience with art has been and how she continues to, to bring art into the world. And I think it's just an incredible story. So without further ado, thank you, Grace, for being here today.

[00:01:29]Grace Strachan: Thank you, Lindsey, for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here.

[00:01:33]Lindsey Dinneen: And Grace, I would love if you would share just a little bit about, you know, who you are a little bit about your story, whatever you kind of want to share. That'd be amazing.

[00:01:43]Grace Strachan: Thank you. Well, I actually, my background is in art. When I was a child, I actually took art lessons and had to go out and get a job to be able to pay for them. And so I actually drew and I also used to paint and I did photography. So my background was art. And then as I grew up, I actually ended up doing interior design. So again, very artistic, very color oriented. And then I spent the next, I dunno how many years of my life--I didn't end up doing interior design for very long . So I got to deal with your creative side, but I'm supplying, actually, products to the interior design, to market in commercial, as well as residential.

[00:02:29]But then now something that I actually fell in love with and got to be creative in a new way. And, I really consider it a lost art, and that is the art of communication and the art of card sending. So it was something that was very close to my heart because my mother always taught me that if you didn't send out a thank you card and thank somebody for a gift, you needed to give it back because you didn't show gratitude. And because it became a lost art and now it's becoming a big art, and something that people are really appreciating in their life. Again, I'm quite excited to be a big part of that new movement.

[00:03:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is incredible. Yeah, so, so definitely I'd love to hear your stories about, you know, about what that experience has brought to you. I knew about the interior design, but I don't think I knew about growing up as an artist. So that's so fun. Do you still, do you still do any of that as well? Any drawing or the photography or anything like that right now?

[00:03:33] Grace Strachan: Well, I use the photography of course, for my cards and because I can download a picture onto a card. I think you kind of suppress a lot of things. When I got married, it was just something that I just didn't do. And I'm seriously thinking about starting to maybe paint, draw again. And, I actually used to make my own clothes, too, so that's something I don't think I'll ever want to do again, but yeah, going back and drawing. And I think, yes, I think I'm seriously thinking about starting to do that again and maybe, drawing and painting and putting that on the cards as well.

[00:04:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. Yeah. That would be amazing to have some of your original artwork on cards. That's really cool. So I would love to hear some of your stories about the way that writing and communication you were talking about . It's kind of a lost art. I'd love to hear more about your experience with that and, and just how it's impacted you and others, 'cause I know it's, it's really important.

[00:04:37] Grace Strachan: Thank you. Well, I have a couple stories I'd like to share with you. One of them is probably my favorite. I've been taught by Cody Bateman who actually owns a company that I'm associated with, Send Out Cards, to act on promptings. And what that means is that when somebody comes to your mind, to act on that, because that usually means that either they need to hear from you or you need to touch them. And one of the stories that I wanted to share was I had a boss who was probably the best boss I ever had in my life. And I actually worked for him for 13 years out of the 15 years with the company. And I had not seen him in about three or four years, and one morning I got up and the first person that came to my mind was him.

[00:05:23] And so I actually started, I actually decided to send him a card and you know, when I do something like that, I usually don't remember what I put on the card, but I remember that I wrote him a card and I pretty well said to him that he had been a mentor and that I had never, ever told him how much he meant to me. And that I felt bad that I hadn't ever told him that. But what I wrote, I don't really remember. I just remember that I felt good and I sent it. Well, three weeks later, I'm driving down, down the road in St. Louis with my other job that I had. And, I think pull over to the side of the road, 'cause my phone rang and there it was. And I hear, "Hey Gracious," which is what he called me. And I went, "Oh my goodness." And I couldn't believe it was Tom in this beautiful Southern accent. And I asked him how he was doing. And he said, "Good now." And I said, "Wow, that's great." And he said, "Yeah," he said, "I'm gonna tell you, I just got back from a vacation. And we got our mail brought in. Oh, there's a card here from Grace." And his first reaction was, "Oh, I hope everything's okay."

[00:06:35] Well, Lindsey, my heart went into my throat. Oh yeah. I almost broke into tears at that time. And I realized right then and there that I hadn't, it was, I mean, it was a lost art. I had not been keeping in communication with them. He said, so him and Jo, they sat down and they read the card. He said, "We cried. And now I'm calling you." And he said, "And I just wanted to let you know, you totally made my day." He said, "I cried out of, of love." He said, "I've never had anybody tell me what they really thought of me and how a great mentor I had been to them." And he said, "You've probably made my entire year."

[00:07:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow.

[00:07:24] Grace Strachan: That proves the point of the fact that the written word is a lost art because we don't bear our hearts to people. We don't tell people what we think and how we think of them and share with them our true feelings. And that card was just a stock card out of our, our card catalog. And with a few words in it, it wasn't even very creative in any way, shape or form, but it affected somebody that greatly. The biggest thing I got from this too, was the fact that no more was I going to not stay in contact with this man, because he had been such a mentor to me and I have not talked to him in four years. And that is really, really sad. So that's my first story. The second story that I, that I was going to tell was actually a different one, but I, I actually had something happen in my life. I had lost my husband three years ago, and I'm going to tell you that when I received all the cards that I received in the mail from all the people that I knew in my life, I could literally cover a complete dining room table and three other tables with cards, just from people sending me sympathy cards and saying how much they love me, how much they, you know, they cared about me and they were sending prayers.

[00:08:56] And a lot of those cards had pictures of my husband and myself in them, the best keepsakes I've ever had in my entire life. And that probably meant more to me than anything. And I left those cards up. It took me three months before I could take those cards down because I would literally every day go over and pick a different card and read it. So it made me realize how much we, the lost art hasn't really been lost. It's just been kind of put on the sideline. And we're bringing it back, you know, it's not really a lost art. It's been a delayed art and now it's a part that's coming back.

[00:09:41]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That is beautiful. And I'm sure you have probably a bazillion stories like that to share of people that you've touched, that you didn't even necessarily know why they came to your mind, but I love--so you have a very particular practice and I'm not going to spoil it for our audience because I want you to tell about it, but you have a very particular practice that you do, with the cards on a daily basis. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and kind of why that's important?

[00:10:11] Grace Strachan: Yeah, we call them cards of gratitude. I get up every day and like I said, that that morning, when I sent that card to Tom, that was acting on a prompting. So I get up every day and the first person that comes to my mind gets a card. And again, that, that means something because you're giving to give and the beauty of giving to give is that when you give back, the universe gives back tenfold. When you give to get, and what that means is that when you give to get, you're expecting something in return. So like I said, when I sent that card to Tom, I didn't remember what I wrote in it. I mean, I just wrote it and sent it because that was my, my card of gratitude, telling him I was grateful for knowing him and having a part of my life.

[00:10:55] So I, I do that every day. And actually the, the owner of our company, Cody Bateman, wrote a book on promptings and it, and that's what it is. It's a prompting and yeah, it's teaching you to touch people because when they come to your mind, they come to your mind for a reason. And so I do that usually every morning. And I try now to do it every night because I find that when I do it every night, I sleep better, because I've touched somebody from my heart before I go to sleep as well. So it starts my day off, but it also ends my day in a, in a really great frame of mind. And whatever I love about it is that-- the other story I was going to tell, and I probably should is one of my very best friends.

[00:11:43] One day she came to my mind and I didn't know why. And I just said, Oh, so I'll just send her. And I just put in it something like, you know, you can't be everything to everybody, but guess what? You're the best to me, or something like that. Something very, you know, probably kind of corny. But anyway, I wrote it and I sent it and the next Friday, my husband and I, my husband was still alive-- we were at dinner and all of a sudden my phone rang and I thought, "Oh, I can't believe that she's calling me. She knows I'm out for dinner with my husband. So I got her voice message and all it was was "wmwmwmw," and it was just tears. So I'm thinking, Oh, I said to my husband, I said, "Yeah, I think I need to call her back, 'cause I think there's something major going on." I don't know what's going on. I called her and she said, "Oh, I'm so glad you called me." She said, "I've had such a bad week. And you know, just everything had gone wrong and everything was bad. And, you know, we were supposed to be going camping and we weren't going to go. I was going to cancel it 'cause I've had such a bad week." And she just--and I went, "Okay, okay." And I said, "Are you okay now?" She said, "Oh yeah. I was ready to cancel our trip."

[00:12:53] And she said, "And I just had this prompting to go to the mailbox and pick up the mail." And she said, she walked to the mailbox and there in the mailbox was my card. It was the only thing in the mailbox. So she walked back to the front stoop and she opened it up and started crying because she said it was exactly what she needed to hear, that she couldn't be everything to everybody. And that was what she had been feeling all week. And she said, she says, "I picked up your car and took it in the house and got prepared for the camping weekend." So what you send does mean something to somebody and it could be that, that one thing that might make their whole day.

[00:13:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I would love to hear your thoughts on, on the impact of words in particular, because I know that when you act on your promptings and you're sending these cards, you're obviously putting a lot of thought and care into the message that you're sending. And so I'd just love to hear a little bit about, you know, your process. So when somebody comes to mind and you decide to send them a card, how does it work from there essentially? Is there a particular pattern you follow when you write these cards, or how does that work for you?

[00:14:08] Grace Strachan: Actually, you'll be surprised to know there is none. Amazingly enough, I learned very quickly that when the prompting comes, it comes for a reason. Now I've had things happen where I've thought, huh? Why, you know, I just talked to that person. Why did that person come to my mind? And what's weird about it is there is no rhyme or reason, and I've had it happen where, I've, I've literally sent a card, and that afternoon, that person called me and said, "Oh, you know, I needed to talk to you." And, and something stressful had happened to them that day or whatever. And I've literally gone back into our system because our cards don't get mailed or don't get printed until after midnight. And so I've literally gone back into the system and changed what's been written in the card because they've told me something that's been stressful or something, and I needed to add to it. But typically the cards I write, I usually get out of my head, because I think if you try too hard to think about what you're going to write, it doesn't sound like you. So normally what I do is I sit back and I calm myself and I say, "Okay, why did this person come to my mind?"

[00:15:26] And a lot of the time it'll be guilt because I haven't talked to them for a while or I haven't communicated what I needed to communicate. And so then what I'll just do is just let, I really just let God do his work. And it comes to me and a lot of the time it can be maybe a phrase. It can be a couple sentences. I've been known to write paragraphs because depending on the person, but I really, there is no rhyme or reason. I just let my heart tell me what to write. And I've been known to only write a couple of words even. And I don't know, I don't know if that's affected somebody or not, because you don't, some people you hear from them, some you don't. I don't give to get, so I don't know. I've had people tell me six or eight months later, you know? "Oh, that card you sent me. I really appreciated it because such and such was happening that day." And, and, you know, and you don't know that that's happening. So I, I can't really say that there is a rhyme or reason to what I write, except that I don't try too hard. Does that make sense?

[00:16:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Well, and I think that in, in and of itself is an art that you can allow yourself to sort of sit with that prompting and then from there, allow the words that come to you to go into your card. I think that that is, that is great. Like you said, you don't want to, you don't want to think about it too much. You don't want to kind of force it because then you're not being maybe authentic. I think that's really neat.

[00:17:02] Grace Strachan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:03] Lindsey Dinneen: That's wonderful. And I, I know, I know you touch a lot of lives through that and I think it's--you've said a couple of times that you, you give to give. And I think that that is really beautiful and, and really important, you know, obviously. So, I'm lucky, I'm a beneficiary of some of the cards that Grace has sent and they're always so beautiful and thoughtful and, and I'll, I'll have her share a little bit later about the platform that she uses. But I just want to say that it is, it is incredible because with that particular platform, you get to kind of design the card to an extent, and you can include pictures and obviously your own words. So for example, from Grace, I've gotten a picture of my cast after we finished our Nutcracker production for the very first time. She sent me this cast photo and it, it's perfect because frankly I probably would have never printed it out. And now I have a framed copy of it, which is so lovely to be able to, to have that memory, you know, in, in print form. Well, Grace, I have a couple of questions for you if that's okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:18:22]Grace Strachan: Well, I think art is in the eye of the beholder. I really believe that. I consider art nature. I consider art beauty. I consider art feelings. I consider art love. I really believe that art is all around us. I don't think we appreciate art the way we should appreciate art. I get very sad when I hear about them taking art out of the schools. I just think that is the most, I don't know how to say it in a very polite way, but wrong. I'll just say it.

[00:18:58] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go!

[00:18:59]Grace Strachan: It's just, it's totally wrong. One of the biggest reasons I, I got into art as a child was because I happened to have a very good school system where we were taught art. And so I took, and then I ended up taking art on, you know, outside of school as well. So I think art is so important and it makes people creative. It helps children blossom in so many ways . And I think we, we tend to not appreciate the art around us. I grew up in a small city in Canada. So I grew up with art all around me, and I've always been, I felt very blessed by that because to have the theater and having that around me, I think gave me a different aspect and a different look on life. I ended up getting into working in theater and doing makeup and, and doing some backstage stuff when I lived in Canada. And that is, that's something that I could never, ever, ever, be lucky enough to repeat again. So I think art is just everywhere and everything.

[00:20:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I agree. I love that answer. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:20:14]Grace Strachan: To share their gift. To make sure that everybody is aware of their gift and to be proud of their gift. I think there's too many artists that, you know, I mean, I always remember hearing people say, "Oh, they want to be an artist. What are they going to do to make a living?" I find that sad. I find that very negative. I think what's wonderful about life now is that most people have more than one means of income. So artists have the advantage. Now there's a lot of ways that they can make a living, maybe not making okay, total living, but at least help support their art. And so I think the biggest thing is that people, when you have somebody that shows artistic talent, nurture that and, and have them share that with the world.

[00:21:08]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Okay. And then for my final question, I'll explain my terms a little bit, but it's--do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is exclusive referring to when an artist creates something and they put it out in the world, and they let the audience take from it, what they will without any real context to it. So that means that maybe we don't know the intention behind it, or we don't know the way that the artist was feeling at the time, or even what they necessarily want to communicate. Versus inclusive referring to, you know, the artists create something and they share their intention with the audience. So perhaps that's program notes or they at least have a title and description, or just basically something so they can help the audience understand the intention behind it. Regardless of what the audience draws from it, if that makes sense.

[00:22:09] Grace Strachan: Wow. That's heavy. That's a very, that's heavy, a deep topic. I think it depends on the art. Yeah. I think some, some art has to be very inclusive because I think there sometimes needs to be an explanation behind what the artist is trying to show. But exclusive also. I really cannot not say one or the other. I really believe that it should depend completely on the artist if they want to be inclusive or exclusive.

[00:22:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you so much for sharing, Grace. I so appreciate the time that you took today to tell us about all those stories, about the impact of words and being generous and giving back. And I would love if you wanted to share a little bit about how people can get connected with you, even about the platform that you use.

[00:23:06]Grace Strachan: Thank you so much. I would love to. Actually it is Send Out Cards and my Canadian comes out when I say "out," that's probably the only time people know I'm Canadian. And the best way to reach me is at www.sendoutcards.com/greetingswithgrace. And that is a platform that, that is my website. If you go there, please send a free card on me. Try out the system, take it for a spin, see what you think. And, and let me know. Another way to reach me is by email and it so, it's Grace and my last name is S T R A C H A N 2014 at gmail.com.

[00:24:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And I would highly encourage anyone listening who is curious about the platform to definitely check it out. It is just a really neat way to send cards that are very unique. Grace, you actually have a phrase that you've been sharing that I love. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[00:24:21]Grace Strachan: I have a feeling, I know what you're talking about.

[00:24:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay.

[00:24:25]Grace Strachan: That we have a high touch product in a no touch world.

[00:24:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Beautiful.

[00:24:31] Grace Strachan: Is that what you were talking about?

[00:24:32] Lindsey Dinneen: That's exactly what I was talking about. Yeah.

[00:24:35]Grace Strachan: People need to know that, what we, what I believe I do is that I take those memories, those photos, the artwork--a lot of the people have photos in their phones. I mean, what do you do with them? Look at them, right? Well, I can take those photos off of Facebook that you share, pieces of art, may put them into JPEGs or PNGs and, and literally put them on a card. And send them out to your grandmother, who you don't get to see; your mother, who hasn't been able to see you maybe in six weeks, and share a memory that is a tangible touch. It doesn't fade away. It doesn't go away in your mind. It is something that you can share with somebody else and share that love and memory forever. And what we send, people keep.

[00:25:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I just want to say, Grace, on behalf of the world. thank you so much for sharing art. I think it's vital. I think it's so important that, that you are blessing people with--you have so much art, not just in that, in the card sending, but just in general. Thank you for sharing art with the world. I think you, I truly believe that when you do that, you make the world a more inclusive and beautiful and generous place. So thank you.

[00:26:04] Grace Strachan: Thank you, Lindsey. And I just want to say one thing, you know, during this time, being, being kind and showing gratitude is kind of, and again, and I'm really hoping, I don't know about you, but I don't want to go back to the old norm. I want kindness and gratitude, love to stay around for a long time. So, amen. I hope if nothing great comes out of this time that we've had to put up with, at least this will stay with us for a long time.

[00:26:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I absolutely agree. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, Grace, for joining us. Thank you for all the listeners who've joined us too. If this episode has left you as inspired as it has left me, I would be delighted if you would share it with a friend or two, and continue to spread art and joy into the world, and we will catch you next time.

[00:26:55]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:27:07] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out, or dabbling, or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do you have options for every budget level. They provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase, and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome David Weinraub! He has been involved in professional theater productions, musical theater, and rock-and-roll bands, and talks about how his involvement with art has changed throughout the years with various life seasons.

Connect with David Weinraub: https://www.facebook.com/david.weinraub.5

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your podcast interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 12 - David Weinraub

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told ,where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:07] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:13] Roman: All I can do is put my heart into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, David Weinraub, and thank you so much, David, for joining me. I'm so delighted to speak with you today.

[00:00:49] David Weinraub: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to participate.

[00:00:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Well, I would love if you would start by sharing just a little bit about who you are and maybe some of your involvement in art.

[00:01:01] David Weinraub: Sure. Well, my name is David. I am a child of the seventies and grew up playing music. That turned into a love of rock and theater. As I continued to grow and after college, I began pursuing a career as an actor and did that and was able to pay my bills for a few years and then found a part-time job that turned into a full-time job in an office that I really enjoyed, and realized I can still continue to do art no matter what. I could still play music, I could still act, but I could also--didn't have to pursue it as my full-time gig, and continued to act. I met my wife. We were the only two people with day jobs on a six night a week dinner theater show, and we dated, got married a few years later, had a kid, and then I kind of dropped out of the art world for a while.

[00:01:55] I stopped performing when our son was born and I didn't get back to it until about three years ago, and I've been going nonstop ever since, and I love it. And I love that I can share with my family. I love that I can share it with the world, and I'm just having a great time continuing to make music and, and perform. So that's me in a reader's digest nutshell.

[00:02:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. I mean, I know that there are many, many layers to your stories of course, but that's great. I'm so glad you're back into it. And I love that you met your wife through that. That is wonderful.

[00:02:29] David Weinraub: Yeah, no, we would be, it was a dinner theater. So, you know, you, you get a paycheck just for performing, but you make more money by waiting tables, and we had day jobs and weren't able to get down to the theater in time for the dinner service before the show. So we would hang out backstage. It would just be the two of us, and that's how we really bonded and fell in love. So the theater has been great for us in many, many ways.

[00:02:53] Lindsey Dinneen: It sounds like it. That is awesome. Wonderful. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about maybe some stories of times where art has impacted you, or even hear a little bit about, you know, the various projects that you're embarking on now.

[00:03:06] David Weinraub: Sure. Well, I guess my love of theater started in college. I was a Shakespeare fiend. I was an English major and I loved reading Shakespeare and analyzing Shakespeare, talking about it, and then my senior year, they were going to be doing "Henry the 4th," parts one and two in their entirety in the spring. And I decided in the fall, well, since they're doing it in the spring, I should audition. So they think I'm interested and then I can be a spear carrier, a soldier. And so I can just say I acted in one Shakespeare play. And I auditioned in the fall for a show called the "Prince of Homburg," which is a 16th century German piece very similar to the themes of "Henry the 4th."

[00:03:52]So a young upstart Prince doesn't really know how to become a leader and goofs off a lot, but then becomes a leader in his own right. And, I, I got cast in a pretty good role and I loved it. And, then from that point forward, all of my focus turned towards theater. I was able to complete a theater minor in an entire year before graduation. And then right after college, I just kept going with it. So it started with the love of Shakespeare. I worked for the Annapolis Shakespeare--I think it's under new management now--but the Annapolis Shakespeare Company after college. I did some modern dramas and black box theaters in downtown DC, which no longer exist.

[00:04:34] And then, I was auditioning a lot in New York while performing in DC and, then, fell into the dinner theater, 'cause I realized if I wanted to make money, I couldn't just do Shakespeare or weird modern dramas. The money was in musicals. And I played in bands in high school, in college as well. So I sang a little bit, but I started taking voice lessons and I got cast in a production of "Jesus Christ Superstar" as Pilot in the Giant Theater in Frederick, Maryland.

[00:05:07] And, then I, I just kept doing musicals for awhile. And then I met Catherine and we got married. We worked together on four shows in dinner theater and then did a few more after we got married in community theater in the Northern Virginia area. And then our son was born, and that was amazing, but we dropped out of performing in theater and started attending theater. We became a Shakespeare Theater subscribers and Kennedy Center subscribers. And that was just amazing as well, just to be able to enjoy something from the other side, which when you're performing six nights a week, you don't have as much time to see.

[00:05:42]I thought I still needed some sort of creative outlet when he was little, and then a friend of mine who I worked with who was in a band, asked me if I wanted to join his band. And the good thing about playing music--you can kind of take gigs when they become available to you, but also you can rehearse when it works for the whole band. All of us had day jobs. We were just, we called ourselves a bunch of old dudes who just got together and played when we could. And, we were getting more gigs, playing bars and stuff than we were able to take, because people travel for irregular job work and the children's calendars, you know, we had sports for our kids and stuff like that.

[00:06:19] And we just played when we could. The band was called the Black Shag Sherpas, and I think they still have a website. I'm not sure if there are any original members left in that band or if they're still playing, but they played some great funky, weird rock, jazz hybrid music along with some covers. So that was fun. So I never stepped away from art or music. I just found an outlet. And then how I got back into it-- the dinner theater where Catherine and I had met closed down and they had a reunion picnic. So people who had worked there from the time it opened in the mid-seventies, till the time it shut down in 2016, everyone was invited.

[00:07:06] And, I started talking to friends from the theater who I had not seen in 13 years, and I was telling them about playing in bands and they said, "Oh, you play in bands. Do you think you could get a band together to play the 'Rocky Horror Show?'" And I said, "I think I can." And that is how I got pulled into music, directing the "Rocky Horror Show" for the Workhouse Arts Theater in Lorton. And that's what started my journey into theater nonstop. Once again, began with the "Rocky Horror Show" in 2016.

[00:07:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That is a really interesting trajectory. I mean, you, you have dabbled in all--well, not dabbled, you're a professional; I didn't mean it like that--but you have gotten to experience so many different outlets for your art. And I love the fact that even if you couldn't do what you had originally started doing throughout your entire career, you've actually helped yourself grow as an artist. Would you say that? That, you know, because you've been able to do so many different things?

[00:08:06] David Weinraub: Definitely! I mean, just sitting back as, as an active participant, as an observer, you learn so much from watching others and not, not that I would ever think, "Oh, I can do that better than so and so," 'cause I never thought that, but you, you can enjoy what they are doing and you can learn from the things you are seeing.

[00:08:25]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Absolutely. Well, do you have any specific things that come to mind as inspiration for maybe a new direction that you took, or just an encounter with art that may have really impacted you and helped you on this trajectory?

[00:08:40] David Weinraub: One of the more recent things I worked on, with one of your previous guests, was a production of "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson" for Dominion Stage, which is a very difficult piece. Andrew Jackson is a very divisive figure, especially nowadays. He was a horrible, horrible man who grew the size of the United States a quintuple fold from what it was by doing awful, awful things, which were admired at the time by many. His story was turned into a rock musical before "Hamilton" and it ran on Broadway very briefly. It was not well received.

[00:09:19] But, working with Dani Guy as the director, when she asked me to be involved, I wanted to, because I loved the music. It is just dirty rock and roll, which I love. And also the band gets to be on stage and interact with the other performers. So that's always fun. I was able to put together--I call them the best band in the world--'cause they are. And, we all listened to one another when we play and we listened to what's going on onstage. So if you show up night one, it might sound a little different than night two if someone plays something or acts in a slightly different way, we're going to react to it, the band or actors too. But working with this collaborative group of people, we made something really, really special and very poignant. And, you know, it sucks that there is no venue for live theater right now, nor should there be 'til it is safe to return to it. But to go out on a note like that was, you know, at the end of February, was not a bad thing to go out on it, to have in my recent memory.

[00:10:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So Dani did share a little bit about her experience with that too. And it sounds like it was just an incredible experience for everyone involved and brought out a lot of conversation about art. I mean, did--what were the reactions that you kind of encountered personally, positive or negative?

[00:10:39]David Weinraub: All positive in terms of, "This was a powerful piece." No one thought that we were doing anything wrong, who I spoke to. You know, we were pointing out, through beauty, we were able to point out some of the horrible things that have happened, and are continuing to happen, in this world, you know, through the power of performance, through the power of rock and roll, and dance and, and movement. I'm struggling to define what it was 'cause it is such a strange piece. But it was so beautiful the way it, it all came together. Does that make any sense?

[00:11:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. She, she shared about getting some mixed reactions and how she, as the director, wanted to help everyone kind of navigate through some criticism that, you know, all art gets. I mean, we all have dealt with that at some point, and her outlook was so, so amazing to me because she just--I love her approach of using people's criticism to really think through a different perspective. And I think that's a really wonderful thing that she brought to that production in particular. So I know it's kind of, we're kind of in a weird place right now, but do you have anything coming up that you're excited about? Or how, how are you still able to kind of express yourself and be artful in these crazy days?

[00:12:01] David Weinraub: Well, the amazing thing about artists is they always find a way to create, regardless of the circumstances. And I have many friends who have created online venues for us to do so. I've worked with a landless theater company as an actor. I did a production of "Puffs" with them last year, which is a "Harry Potter" spoof, and they are going to be releasing very soon some virtual performances. We recorded one, called "The Walking Fred," which is a spoof of "The Walking Dead," as told through the prism of the Flintstones.

[00:12:41]So, we recorded it via Zoom and they're putting, you know, special effects on it to make it look like we're, we all have the same backgrounds and that sort of thing. So hopefully that will be coming out soon. So that was a nice outlet to be able to act. And then, I have a friend, who is an amazing actor-singer, and he's also, he, hosts a number of drag brunches and drag bingos as "Lips," and Lips has a new show, which is a virtual drag, a talent show, and he asked me to work on some songs for it. So I was able to write some songs and I, I'm a dirty rock and roll player. I like playing live with groups of people. You know, I will play one instrument at a time, with groups of people, but by doing it this way, and him asking me to write something, I had to learn how to use Garage Band that was able to record myself, you know, multi-track it.

[00:13:34] So I'm playing all the instruments for, for this piece. So that should be out soon as well. So "Lips Virtual Drag Cabaret." So I'm, I'm finding things to keep me busy. I'm taking advantage of all that, that others are creating as well. Now that I have more time in the evenings, I'm watching it all. You know, there are so many people putting out--they're doing Zoom play readings. I was able to work with Dani again, and this was just for fun. I don't believe it was recorded, but as a stage reading of the "Duchess of Malfi," which is an amazing, Chekhovian, very dark drama. I don't think it was meant to be a comedy, but it kind of turned into one looking at it through 21st century prism. But we had a lot of fun just reading that. So there, there are always outlets to do things.

[00:14:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Now you mentioned writing songs. Was that something you had done before, or is that a little bit newer to you?

[00:14:26] David Weinraub: I have written songs for rock bands before, but I'd never recorded in a studio, you know, with engineers hanging around and stuff. But I never pursued it as something that I wanted to get out there and publish. The Black Shag Sherpas, which I mentioned before, we put out a four-song EP, which you could probably find online. But ever since then, since I got back into theater, I really haven't done any writing. So this was a nice outlet to do it once again. So this was just an, a fun, goofy, 1970s, disco rock. I was told to think of superheroes. So I was thinking of, you know, a combination of the "Wonder Woman" theme and, you know, seventies disco era Rolling Stones. And I put that together in my head to come up with a, with a theme song for them.

[00:15:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, neat. Well, that sounds incredible. I'm sure that's going to be great. Yeah, that's really neat. So I'm just curious, how has--or if, if it hasn't, that's fine too--but yeah, I guess more accurately, has becoming a father changed the way that you view art or create art?

[00:15:33] David Weinraub: Definitely. I'm always looking at things through, through my son's eyes now. Is this something that I think he would appreciate? Not that it always--I don't expect a, he's now 16 years old, so I don't expect him to like everything I like, and he wouldn't be a cool teenager if he did-- but, the answer is yes, it forces you to see things in a different way. And now thinking, like going to museums with him when he was very young, you know, we might take advantage of looking at an impressionist painting for the first time, but seeing it through the eyes of a three-year-old in a stroller, totally changes the way you take something in.

[00:16:08] And not that he understood the brushstrokes or the whole backstory of the impressionist or anything, and he just appreciated the art for what it was, you know, to him and seeing something with that freshness without having the 20-plus years of your experience on top of it lends you to appreciate it in a new way, totally different take on this. I don't know if you've ever watched the television show called "Community" from 10 years ago?

[00:16:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I have. I just actually recently got into it. What a fun show.

[00:16:37] David Weinraub: It's a great show and I loved it when it first aired, but he was too young to watch it then. So, we were watching it together now from the beginning and something simple and easily accessible on Netflix, just watching it through his eyes and all of the, the pop culture references that it makes, you know, discussing them with him. And then going back if they talked about, well, you know, all that makes a joke about a Martin Scorsese film, then we can pause and talk about Martin Scorsese, and then we can go back and watch a Scorsese film together. You know, a "Good Fellows" the next day. So, always looking at things through new eyes is, is, you know, through someone else's eyes and someone else's experience--it's convenient when they're in the same house as you, so you can discuss it too.

[00:17:21]Lindsey Dinneen: That's a great perspective. And it's, it's so interesting to hear how things change, you know, when you are getting the opportunity to experience them through somebody else's eyes, or with somebody who might also not share your opinion, and, and get to really explore that a bit.

[00:17:39] David Weinraub: Yeah, definitely. And while my son has seen many of the shows that I've worked on in the last three years, there are some that he has expressed absolutely no interest in at all once I've told them about it. And, I did a very strange show at the DC Fringe Festival last year, as an actor. It was a show called "Inferno," which was a modern take on Dante's "Inferno" as a musical. It is not for everybody. It, it won like some Best of Fringe Audience Awards. But I, I didn't think that that was something--I told him about it-- and he said, "No, I'm not interested in something that weird at all." And he did not see it, but that's okay.

[00:18:18] Lindsey Dinneen: It is okay. Well, and is he interested in being involved? Is he involved in the arts himself or does he just enjoy experiencing it or what does he like?

[00:18:27] David Weinraub: He is a very talented drummer. I'm, I'm so jealous. I, I, that's the one thing I never took lessons in, so I don't really know how to play drums. I can fake my way through it, but he is really, really good and takes lessons. And, he started the FaceTime lessons during this time with his teacher, since you can't do it in person, but, yeah, so he, he has some musical ability. He does not like performing in front of people though. He's finishing up his sophomore year in high school. He does stage crew, and he has designed some lighting grids for one of the shows at his school, but he has no desire to act or to, you know, be in marching band or anything like that. And as long as he's enjoying himself playing drums, I want him to keep playing drums. But it's not something that we force, nor do we expect him to do anything just because we tell him he has to.

[00:19:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, he's forging his own path. I love it. Well, thank you. That was so interesting to hear about your life's trajectory and also the different, really unique experiences that you've had and the ways that they've helped you grow and adopt as an artist. And so thank you for sharing about that. That is really neat what you've been able to do.

[00:19:47] David Weinraub: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

[00:19:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, if it's okay with you, I always like to ask my guests a couple of questions, completely subjective, just about your views on a couple of things related to art, is that okay?

[00:20:00] David Weinraub: Sure.

[00:20:01]Lindsey Dinneen: Great. Okay. So the first thing is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:20:10] David Weinraub: That's not an easy question. I personally, I define art as anything that can enhance an emotion. I can go outside and I can see, you know, a turtle on my back deck who somehow found its way, you know, up the stairs to onto the porch. And, I find beauty in that and therefore that is art. To me, it elicits an emotion when it happens. Some people say that's where they see God in the world. And, I think in some ways, God and art are synonymous.

[00:20:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that answer. That's a pretty unique approach to it that I've heard so far. And I, I like that perspective a lot. Thank you for that. So the second question I have is, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:21:12] David Weinraub: The most important role of an artist is, is to bring out that emotion. This is going to sound really cheesy, but the biggest compliment, I, I--the happiest I've ever been after getting a compliment after a show was when I was music directing "Rock of Ages," which is a very silly show, 1980s rock music. The band, again, is on stage the whole time, just as in "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson." The show doesn't have much of a point though, but, if you had seen the show on Broadway, you might've had a fantastic time. If you had seen the show at the Workhouse, we made it look like a real bar and it was a small intimate space. The band was right in the audience's face and yes, we were very well rehearsed and we knew our parts, but we played from the heart. We didn't necessarily play every single note exactly as written. It was not slick. And so that's what someone said to me after the show. That moved me so much because that band was, was reacting to the crowd and reacting to the actors on stage. We weren't just playing, you know, it didn't sound like a recording to them. And, that is what an artist is supposed to do. We're supposed to elicit an emotion. And even if it's, you know, playing an REO Speedwagon song, if it works, it works.

[00:22:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Okay. And then my final question is, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who shares a little bit about their work with whoever their audience is. So if that's a dancer, perhaps they share what inspired the choreography, or if that's a painter, maybe it's a title or a brief description. Versus exclusive kind of referring to the artist puts their work out there and then leaves it open to interpretation.

[00:23:11]David Weinraub: I think art is always open to interpretation. However, I think that art should be inclusive. I don't think the point of an artist is to say only a few people can get this. If you don't understand what I'm doing, you are not a smart person. I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's right. I think that art should be made for everybody. Having said that, having participated in that reading of the "Duchess of Malfi," I'm not sure if you could put a production of the "Duchess of Malfi" on stage right now and expect someone who knows nothing about Jacobian-era language to understand every single moment of it. So you have to figure out a way to make that accessible to anyone who might show up. So it is on the, the artist's shoulders to, yes, allow for some interpretation of their art, but also to, to make it accessible to those who may not understand a hundred percent of it. Or like pausing "Community" when I'm watching it with my son, to explain the cultural references.

[00:24:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, because it enriches the experience. Otherwise it would just go flying over and, you know, not be a point of education and conversation. That makes complete sense. Yeah. Love it. Well, thank you again so very much, David, for joining me. I really appreciate it. And I, am very passionate about art and about sharing it, and I'm very grateful for people like you, who do take what they have and what they've developed, their different skill sets over the years, and then they do share that with the world and they give back. And I think, when you choose to do that, you truly make the world a better, more beautiful place. So on behalf of myself, thank you for sharing art with the world. I know I appreciate it.

[00:25:05] David Weinraub: And thank you, Lindsey, for bringing it to people's attention. This is a great forum. So thank you again for having me on.

[00:25:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And if people want to stay in touch with you, maybe find out about some of your upcoming productions, whether they're, you know, in person or online, is there a way for them to do that?

[00:25:26]David Weinraub: So the best way to just follow me on Facebook, just my name, David Weinraub. I don't have any other social media outlets right now.

[00:25:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, thank you again, David, for being here. Thank you to all of our listeners for joining us again. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love for you to share this episode with a friend or two, and I will catch you next time.

[00:25:53] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:26:04] Hey there, Artfully Told listeners. I wanted to share a really amazing resource with you that I think you will find invaluable. This website is called Artists' Edge. The mission of Artists' Edge is to raise the level of business intelligence, life skills, and emotional intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, creativity, and unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Artists' Edge is the education arm of Deborah Russell Coaching. And she is an awesome person who uses all of her business background and skills to really assist artists become who they want to be. She has a bunch of different products and courses that you can go through as well as personalized coaching. If you're a wannabe artist that wants to turn their passion into a career, or is an already established artist that wants to take their career to the next level, she is the person to talk to you about this. So please follow the link in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Heidi Loubser! Heidi is a professional dancer and currently in school to earn her degree in math. She brings a unique perspective to art with her scientifically-inclined mind, and shares about the YouTube video that completely changed her dance training trajectory.

Connect with Heidi Loubser: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3XhnMolqfEN56S8wJLGspw

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your podcast interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 11 - Heidi Loubser

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello! Welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey and I am so excited to be sharing more art with you today. And I'm very privileged to have an absolutely wonderful person as my guest today. Her name is Heidi Loubser and she is a beautiful artist in many capacities, and I'm excited to hear more about all the different things that she does, but I know that she is an accomplished dancer and has been training, goodness, probably your whole life. So I'm sure I'll get to hear about that, but thank you so much, Heidi, for being on the show today.

[00:00:45]Heidi Loubser: Yes. I'm excited.

[00:00:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. And let's just go ahead and hear a little bit from you about who you are or your background, kind of whatever you want to share.

[00:00:55]Heidi Loubser: Sure. So my name is Heidi, as she said, and I'm 21 years old. I was born in Pretoria, South Africa, and I lived there until I was eight years old. So that definitely shaped my early life. And then I've lived in the US since then. I grew up with my mother and both of my two older sisters dancing. So that was just always normal being at the ballet studio, did the "Nutcracker" every year, and just got more into it. As I got older, I decided to move more into contemporary and modern dance and that really caused me to look other places 'cause the studio I was training at was wonderful, but didn't offer especially any modern. So that's how I ended up in Kansas City at a program called Storling's Artist Development Program, trained there for two years.

[00:01:46] And that was really a great fit for me. I looked at college programs, but ADP was cheaper and a shorter time commitment and had more time in the studio, which is really what I wanted. I've also been in college sort of on and off part-time, full-time online in person, community colleges, all different combinations. And I studied math. I was studying physics and I've finally decided on math. So I have one year left of studying math and I dance with a company in town called Storling, and I'll be doing that again which I really love. So yeah, I think that's, that's pretty much me. I have the science brain and the art brain and I enjoy using them both.

[00:02:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. So you only have one year left. Oh, that's so exciting. I kind of remember, you know, when it was like a little more into the weeds for a while, and I know that's--at least now you can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel there.

[00:02:48] Heidi Loubser: Yeah. And the classes are getting harder. So I'm--but I know that there's a finish line.

[00:02:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Do you have plans for that degree yet? I mean, I know plans are so wonky these days, but in theory, do you have any thoughts about what you want to do?

[00:03:09] Heidi Loubser: Right. So that's such a great question that has gone through so many transitions in my mind. Getting a college degree has always been an expectation in my family. It's also always been a privilege, definitely, that it has been possible in my family that I could pursue a degree. So that was kind of something that I just always knew: I'm getting a college degree. So the transitions have been in what my major would be. And then as I've progressed in dance and realized really just a few years ago that it was actually something I could do professionally, which I didn't know for a really long time, I kind of thought, "Oh, well, maybe I am not going to do whatever my major field is right away. So my degree most recently was actually in math, secondary education, so to teach in a high school, and I really would like to pursue performance, and other aspects of dance now, especially, as everyone says, while you're younger, take the time to do the dancing.

[00:04:10]And then, I mean, my interest in general long-term is definitely in education. I teach dance currently, which I really love and want to continue to do and to invest in dance education. So I've always joked that if I could, you know, be a professor at a university and teach in both the math, science, and dance departments. That, that would sort of be my dream that would require about three master's degrees. So I don't think that's what we're actually going to do, but okay, I don't know. Being a professor has always been of some interest. I also, I've grown more and more interested in dance science. A lot of people suggested sort of physical therapy and things like that to me.

[00:04:51] And I'm really not interested in that. I remember I recently had a conversation with someone who's getting their masters in dance science and that was really interesting to me because I think especially as an educator, there's just a lot of practices I see in the classroom that I'm going, "Why are we still doing this?" You know, when we have the science to tell us what's helpful and what's not helpful. And then also there are just some standards that I see in the dance world that I don't think are healthy. There's a crazy push for flexibility and just things like that.

[00:05:22] So yeah, I can sort of imagine myself going into dance science, but I'm a people person. So I don't know that I want to live my life in a laboratory, but that's the only way I really see them connecting. I think otherwise it's more just the, the logic part of it, I think, you know, and the critical thinking aspect. I think that's just how I teach dance is from a very analytical perspective. This is, you know, the precise way you need to do this step to do it correctly. And I think about it in the same way that I think about math, rather than I'm trying to make this step look pretty or something like that.

[00:06:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:06:02]Heidi Loubser: The plans are just, they're up in the air, obviously.

[00:06:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course, of course. Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I think, I think what's interesting is you bring a different approach to both your own performing and your teaching style. And I think that that's really unique and great, and I love--I think your approach is very in general, problem-solving, which I like, because I think that makes it a little more rich than simply--much more rich, to kind of have that approach rather than just like, "Hey, it's wrong. It needs to be fixed." But like "How?" because that's always a difficult thing.

[00:06:39] Heidi Loubser: And how much of that is changeable? I mean, especially in dance, you're working with the physical body, so there's a huge amount of like, how much are we trying to induce a feeling or an experience for the audience, and how much is that tied to aesthetically what you can produce? Because there's certainly a correlation, you know? I mean, that's why we have techniques that try to develop dancers that can produce certain kinds of positions and shapes and movements, but on the other hand, is that ultimately what's giving the audience, you know, the experience that they're having? I mean, there's so much room for, for things like artistry and that to contribute. So yeah, definitely problem solving. How can we share what we want to with the audience?

[00:07:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah, I love it. Well, I know you have at least one story to share with us, so I would love to hear what you have to say.

[00:07:35] Heidi Loubser: Yeah. So when I first read your post asking for encounters with art, this is the one that immediately came to mind. And I think it was the first one because it was both--it was the first in a lot of areas, I guess, is the best way to put it. So there is a company in Houston, Texas called Ad Deum company, run by Randall Flynn, and they're a company that their vision really centers on the intersection of dance and Christian faith. They really strive to authentically share their faith and hope, love, joy, peace--these good things from the Lord--with their audience through their movement.

[00:08:16] So I actually first discovered them on the wonderful platform of YouTube, and what's amazing about Randy, about the director, is he's really put up a lot of their work on YouTube. So there are hundreds of videos that you can go watch. And especially in high school, when I was just trying to figure out what I thought about dance. And I was in a church, in a Christian school, and a Christian home, and really wondered, you know, what does dance look like in the context of my faith? And I found these YouTube videos and I started watching them and I was really blown away.

[00:08:53] First of all, I had never really seen modern dance before, classical modern dance. And I just loved the movement, totally fell in love. So it was the first in that area, but then also they weren't necessarily using Christian songs or even songs with lyrics. They were using instrumental music. The piece I'm going to speak about was a song that's been used in tons of different contexts called, "This Bitter Earth."

[00:09:18] And, I just stumbled across this video one day called, "This Bitter Earth," and I watched, and I was totally engaged. For one, I don't think I've ever been that engaged watching, especially a video with dance. It's so much better live, but I was really captivated, and basically the piece is just showing the tension between, you know, hope, but so many things to pull you away from hope in the world. At least that's really what I've experienced in the piece. And at the end of the piece, you know, there's two people that are circling in the middle and then there's people running around on the outside and it gets faster and there's more movement on the outside.

[00:09:56]And at the very end, these two people are looking away from each other. It's maybe a six minute piece and they just grab hands and they look at each other and it was really powerful for me. And I know that sounds super cheesy. There are so many pieces where it's like the look, the dramatic moment. But I, I think it really worked because it wasn't, it wasn't over done. They weren't necessarily trying to make a big dramatic moment. It was just sincere, sincere human connection of like, it's going to be okay. You know, there are a lot of troubles in this world, but like hope really is a real thing.

[00:10:35] And then that same year, actually, I loved this company so much. And I, as I said, was just in a season of exploration and in the dance world. I took a Greyhound bus to Houston, stayed in a hostel and went to this company spring intensive, and they actually performed that piece. It's choreographed by Steve Rooks in their studio. They did a little in-studio showing, which was really special for me to see it live. And I've had the opportunity to see it multiple times since then. It's been performed other places, but it was just very, very touching in terms of-- you know, you're not giving me a message and you're not saying words, but I'm really experiencing the virtue of hope is really, I think the best way I can put it.

[00:11:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, it sounds like that kind of helped you--well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, this is just sort of something that I kind of got from it-- it sounds like it really kind of helped you, realize maybe a little bit more of, of how your faith and dance could intersect.

[00:11:36]Heidi Loubser: Yes. It's not necessarily, it has to look like this, but just, this is an option and I don't think it was an option I had seen or experienced before. Not that you can't do it a different way. Not that you always need to intentionally intersect them, but just this is possible and this can be really powerful. So it was such high quality dancing. And I think that was also huge, you know, because I had seen Ballet Magnificat, which is a beautiful company. They do really amazing work, but as I said, I had never seen really modern dance. And so I think it was just that like, wow, it is an option to do modern dance and to share really good and beautiful and powerful things. And to not have to use words or to be direct, you can truly use the art form of dance. It was just so cool to, like, see that option.

[00:12:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And from that, sort of launching point for you, how did that kind of change your trajectory as far as--I mean, I know you mentioned, you know, you'd grown up more in ballet and then were trying to explore more contemporary modern-- is that what pivoted you towards, towards that? Or how did that then impact the rest of your, your journey?

[00:12:53] Heidi Loubser: Hm. So I actually, I had begun exploring contemporary modern before, and I actually, I'm realizing I wasn't quite truthful earlier. I saw that piece maybe two years before I went to Houston. I wrote a paper my senior year of high school. I was in a course called Communication and Culture. And I wrote a research paper abou, Christianity and art, and what it meant to be a, quote unquote, Christian artist. And I talked about this specific piece in my paper. So I actually started exploring contemporary modern because I was having issues in my Achilles tendon from doing a lot of pointe work.

[00:13:31] And so that was kind of the point. So it wasn't necessarily about it being more serious or anything to do with integrating my faith. I think the greatest thing about going to Houston was I met several people from Kansas City when I went to that intensive. And they're actually how I found out about the opportunities in Kansas City. So that was really the biggest influence, but for sure, I mean, it's influenced the work that I create or even--yeah, last Christmas, I was performing at a performance called "Illuminate the Arts" by Arts Inspired Network. And I decided to not fully choreograph my work, but just to pick a song, sort of pick a theme, come up with a few phrases, and I felt free to improvise it.

[00:14:19]And that was, that was really fun. And sort of maybe an example of how I've integrated those sorts of things. I first saw it at Ad Deum. I think it's still in progress. I have a lot to learn. So maybe in about a decade, I'll have some more answers for you. Still figuring it out. But yeah, that initial vision I think is still there.

[00:14:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. So do you foresee yourself continuing to pursue more along the avenues of modern and contemporary rather than more classical movement? Or are you kind of open or?

[00:14:57] Heidi Loubser: You know? I'm open. I think there are so many different factors when it comes to what you form. There's the movement style. There's the content, you know, what are you sharing through the movement? There's all the logistical implications of the time, commitment, et cetera. I think for me, what's really come out on top of the priority is that we truly care for the audience and that we're trying to give them something, and that I'm not just on stage, that I can have a good time.

[00:15:32]I think that's really--that generosity, I think, is the best word--has really come out on top for me is the main thing that I care about. So I think when I see that somewhere, then I ask questions about the movement or about the specific storylines that they're telling, et cetera. Yeah, I would love to do more modern and to learn more techniques. I'm not totally sure where I'm headed. Obviously as an educator, always wanting to get more professional development, to have more to share with my students.

[00:16:03] So there's definitely a draw there to study more modern. But I think, I think the biggest thing really is just, are we trying to offer something good and true to our audience? And if that's true, then I'm--I don't know--I'm willing to try something new. I'm willing to learn a new style if I feel like that is happening.

[00:16:24] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's a good kind of baseline standard to have. And so then, then it's easier to kind of navigate your opportunities. If it meets that standard, great, then maybe that's something to explore, and if it doesn't, yeah well, it's not for you. Yeah, I think that's, that's wonderful to have that kind of a clear, I dunno, set of guidelines that are things to kind of ponder. Well, I have a few questions that I like to ask my guests if that's okay with you.

[00:16:48] Heidi Loubser: Yes, I'd love to hear them.

[00:16:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. All right. So first of all, how do you personally define art, or what is art to you?

[00:16:58]Heidi Loubser: Oh, gosh, we're jumping right in. Oh!

[00:17:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes.

[00:17:03]Heidi Loubser: Well, I'll, I'll just start off by saying, I honestly don't completely know. I feel like the word is so it's thrown around so much that it-- I find myself in a conversation, I'm responding to how that person is defining it. Do you know what I mean? As long as we can commonly define in this conversation where this is what we're talking about, then that helps me.

[00:17:29]I think I maybe have a classical definition of visual art, performing art, you know? I do think there's some amount of emotional tie to it. I mean, even if I go out and look at the sunset, I think that can be, I guess, an artistic experience. I guess to me, it also really depends why we need to define it. So for example, if we're trying to define it for a grant process, you know, to decide who can apply, that's really different than trying to define it for the sake of my worldview .

[00:18:03] I tend to sort of go, okay, what category, what sphere of life are we in? And what is it applied to in this situation? Because if we're in school and we're talking about needing to give kids art classes, you know, as opposed to all the classes they already have, we're probably talking about a specific arts skill, such as drawing, singing, you know, playing an instrument. Even though the general idea of being creative, which I think some people would say, well, art is basically creativity. Well, I promise you, you need creativity in math. I mean, the kind of math classes I'm in there is no formula to find the answer anymore. It's literally, here's your differential equation. You need to guess the solution. You know, if you see artists' creativity, well, that's very artistic. You need a lot of creativity. So, yeah, so that's why in my mind, that's too broad. I mean, everything has an element of art in it then.

[00:18:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Well, and, and, like art, you know, it's subjective. Everyone has a different kind of opinion on that. But yeah, so you're saying like, it depends. So you would define art in different contexts. So like, it depends on the context that, that the conversation is around how you would necessarily define art. Is that correct?

[00:19:14] Heidi Loubser: I think so. I think if I'm trying to one sentence to it, I mean, art is the act of creating . You know, we take one resource and we transform it into another. We take a body and we mold it to do certain things on stage. We take clay and we turn it into a sculpture. So maybe, yeah, the act of creating, if I had to boil it down to a phrase, but if you ask me in a year, I'm probably going to have a different answer.

[00:19:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I've not heard it said like that before, and I think that that brings up a very good point of the context does matter. Well, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:19:50] Heidi Loubser: So, okay. Maybe this isn't a role but I think I would say--to be telling, or, you know, in dance or other forms we're not telling, but to be sharing the truth. I think of artists in some ways is a huge part of like the global marketing team. I mean, if you think about what people's opinions or worldviews or just what they believe about it, any number of things, art is often a huge part of, of how they got there. You know, we're not creating those ideas obviously, but I think artists are usually the ones expressing them or propagating them or suggesting that this is closer to what it should be, what we should be fighting for.

[00:20:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:20:35] Heidi Loubser: Or even if it's, as artists are bringing joy and we're just bringing some humor and laughter and, and entertainment, you know, which is totally real as well, that's suggesting that that's valuable in life, right? So in my mind, there's a lot of different things you could be expressing with art, but it's the most important thing for me is just that what you're expressing is, is true. It lines up with reality, which doesn't mean that it's not fictional. I mean, obviously you could do a play about a fictional story, but you're, you're sharing truth through that. Not that it's factually correct, but you're, you're promoting and you're encouraging things in life that are really important and matter.

[00:21:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think truth is really important in art. Good answer. Okay. My final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit-- do you think, and just again, in your own opinion--that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And here's what I mean by that. So with exclusive, we're talking about an artist putting their work out into the world and not necessarily providing any particular context behind it so that the audience can take from it just what they want? Versus inclusive kind of referring to an artist that, you know, includes the program notes or has a description, or essentially you understand what the artist's intention was behind the piece, regardless of what you draw from it.

[00:22:07]Heidi Loubser: I've had a number of conversations about this topic, especially with my parents actually, because they very much, they always want more information. They always want to know what the artist intended. They're frustrated when they don't understand, which has been really helpful for me actually, especially from my father, because he's not a dancer. And so to go, okay, someone on the outside is looking for more information. If I have to choose one, I think I'm going to say inclusive. I, I think the way that I prefer it to happen is that the information is there, it's available, but it's not forced on the audience. You know? So I think, for example, putting it in a program note is a really great way to do that.

[00:22:51] The program is free at the door. They can read it if they want to. What I often choose to do personally is to read it afterwards. You know, I want that information, but I like to sort of just watch the piece for itself. If we're talking about dance first and then to hear what they had to say, but I also am trying to become more sensitive to the idea that there are a lot of people that feel totally lost. They feel stupid that they don't understand art. And I think, you know, if you teach, if you expect someone to read English, I mean, we taught them the letters, right? We taught them what each word means. You don't expect someone to pick up an English book and understand it if they don't know English.

[00:23:30] And I think in some ways, you know, like dancers, sculpture painting can be a whole other language. Oh, well the color red symbolizes this and the color blue symbolizes that and giving them that information is helping them to, quote unquote, "read" the painting. So, yeah, I would say yes, inclusive, but I also know that there are some artists who--they're specifically creating work for the intention of having other people interpret it through their experiences. So almost like therapy. They really, they don't want people to know their backstory. They want people to process their own experiences. And I think that can be helpful. I mean, I often think maybe if they would say that more clearly that people could walk away with more--if they know, okay, that's what I'm supposed to do in this scenario.

[00:24:19] Because I think sometimes people don't know that they're supposed to do that, or even that they're invited to do that. And so they're just scared. But yeah, I would say, I mean, I would say inclusive 'cause even as a dancer, as someone who's familiar with this world from the inside, there are still times when I wish I had more information. And so it's sort of like, if I wish that, then surely people who don't know this language at all, who've never been in a studio are going to want some level of context.

[00:24:48]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Love it.

[00:24:51] Heidi Loubser: These are great questions. Wow.

[00:24:54] Lindsey Dinneen: It, you know, and it's so interesting because it brings up a lot of interesting points and people have, have shared very different opinions on it. And I think that's important too, to have those conversations about sort of even just why you believe what you believe. Well, thank you so much again, Heidi. I really appreciate you sharing your stories and your insights. Thank you for sharing art with the world. I am a firm believer that when you do create and, and, you know--kind of referring back to what you were talking about earlier--when you're generous with your art and your heart and soul really come through with-- whether you're dancing or writing or solving problems when you're giving-- there's, there's so much power and beauty that comes from that. And I truly believe it makes the world more beautiful place. And so I just want to say thank you for sharing. Well, thank you so much again to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you feel as inspired as I do right now, I hope that you'll share with a friend and continue to share art with the world in that way. And I just want to say thank you, and we will catch you next time.

[00:26:07] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:26:18] Hey there, Artfully Told listeners. I wanted to share a really amazing resource with you that I think you will find invaluable. This website is called Artists' Edge. The mission of Artists' Edge is to raise the level of business intelligence, life skills and emotional intelligence. For people who are committed to expressing their passions, creativity, and unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease Artists' Edge is the education arm of Deborah Russell Coaching. And she is an awesome person who uses all of her business background and skills to really assist artists become who they want to be. She has a bunch of different products, courses that you can go through as well as personalized coaching. If you're a wanna-be artist that wants to turn their passion into a career, or is an already established artist that wants to take their career to the next level, she is the person to talk to you about this. So please follow the link in my comments and show notes.

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In this episode, I welcome Katheryn Krouse! She shares her journey from studying to become an art teacher to a full-time professional artist, and how her diagnosis of Stargardt disease led her to her unique take on painting and artwork. She also shares how her cat, Ewok, has been her inspiration too!

Get in touch with Katheryn Krouse: https://www.facebook.com/Katheryn.Krouse.Art | https://www.instagram.com/kkrouseart/ | https://www.etsy.com/shop/KatherynKrouseArt

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 010 - Katheryn Krouse

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to Artfully Told. I am so excited to be here with you today. I'm Lindsey, I'm your host, and today I am delighted to have Katheryn Krouse on the podcast as my guests. She is a beautifully accomplished visual artist and she does a lot of different paintings, and she's going to actually share with us all about it. So I don't really want to spoil it very much, but she is local to Kansas City and a lot of her work is actually based in the Kansas City area. But anyway, thank you so much for joining me, Katheryn. I'm so happy that you're here.

[00:00:40] Katheryn Krouse: Aww, thank you for having me.

[00:00:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Well, I wondered if you wouldn't mind just sharing just a little bit about yourself and maybe kind of what you're up to, you know, nowadays, especially in this kind of odd time of life.

[00:00:55] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah, it is, it is a really bizarre time. But yup, I'm a local artist. I grew up in Overland Park and then I went to school at KU, and after graduating in 2012, I moved into my downtown apartment, which is also where I operate out of, and as my art studio. So I've been doing this full time since 2013 and I just, I just really love how that Kansas City kind of allows and can afford enough opportunities to make all of that possible.

[00:01:28]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Super supportive of the arts.

[00:01:30] Katheryn Krouse: So it's kind of a bizarre time, you know, with the quarantine. It's also kind of, you know, enjoyable too though. I mean, it allows us artists to really be able to focus on our art and even experiment and try different things. And it's just, it brings us back to really focusing on the process and the creative, you know, experience behind it. I actually love working from home. So while it's an interesting a adjustment for a lot of other people, I, I have actually gotten really good at it. And I, and I enjoy it. I love being able to like take little breaks and cook a nice lunch or prepare, you know, I just love operating out of my home.

[00:02:10]And I get a lot of inspiration, you know, out of like the views, and you know my apartment's right off 11th and Grand. And so it overlooks downtown North and West, and I've always wanted to kind of capture the views that I get so much inspiration from, you know, whether it be during a storm or sunset or different, different lighting. I've always kind of wanted to capture that.

[00:02:33] And so I'm actually working on a series right now that kind of addresses quarantine. But it's just my house plants in the windows overlooking, you know, downtown. So each wall, each painting is a little composition of the window, but the plants are in the foreground and they're very textured, very thick impasto paint, which is really luxurious for me to work with. And each one together, they tell us a narrative that kind of captures this bizarre time where the streets were very quiet. There's there's no traffic. But inside, the plants are thriving and full of color, full of light. So it's kind of a fun series.

[00:03:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah, well, that is a great, I love that idea of having such a dynamic contrast between, like you were saying, the outside and the inside, but they're still full of life. And, and I think that's actually--I actually really love that as a metaphor, just in general, as, as you know, as an artist you're still dedicated to kind of bringing that beauty to, to the world, no matter what the circumstances are. I think that's really neat.

[00:03:42] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I'm curious to know kind of even, your backstory a little bit. How did you even get involved with art in the first place? What led you to a career as a professional artist?

[00:03:56] Katheryn Krouse: So really I've always made art. Even as a little girl, I loved getting, I mean, those were my Christmas gifts and birthday gifts were always some form of art materials or art supplies. I, I've just always loved, started off painting my cat or painting, you know. I wanted a dog really bad, so I would start drawing the different dogs that I might want and, you know, just, I loved and coloring and drawing, from as long as I can remember. And I remember in high school actually feeling this pressure that I think a lot of people can relate to where we're just pressured and were asked over and over again, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And how intimidating that felt? And I remember looking around and I was actually very close with my high school art teachers and they were so silly and fun and our class was always a good time and they just loved what they were doing.

[00:04:53] They had summers off for summer vacation and they're able to sell their own art on the side at art fairs and different galleries and whatnot. And so I just, I just love that that really appealed to me and it, and it seemed feasible way to kind of continue doing art and also enjoy what I'm doing. So I actually, I went to school at KU and I studied that. I studied art education for three years. And then, and during that time really enjoyed all the studio classes I took and the art history, and I just really enjoyed and really felt confident that that's what I wanted to do.

[00:05:34] However, my junior year, I was actually diagnosed with this eye condition called Stargardt's disease, which, you know, no one in my family knew what that was. No one had ever heard of it. It just seemed really bizarre, but basically I was having a hard time reading size 12 font on the computer screen. So I was used to writing papers and filling out, completing assignments. And I was realizing that I was getting closer and closer to the screen and I would strain my eyes.

[00:06:05] And so we went to our family eye doctor, and it just became one referral after the next to different retina specialists. And I was diagnosed with a severe case of Stargardt's disease which is a macular degeneration in my retinas. And the best way I can describe it is that I interpret my light values to be a lot brighter and my dark values a lot darker.

[00:06:31] So for example, if it's really bright outside and someone is standing in front of a window, that contrast makes it really kind of difficult for me to recognize them or right away kind of adjust to that. And so that became something that I really enjoyed communicating through my work. I started experimenting with really vibrant color palettes that kind of communicates a visual vibration for the viewer who's not visually impaired. Like it still gives the viewer something different visually. And that's also why I like working with a lot of texture. I think that gives the piece something different for the viewer to look at whether they're close to it versus for far away, it kind of evolves under different lighting and that all kind of started.

[00:07:21] Then I started, I had this like really weird year. That meant like processing all of this, but I also started making really, really cool art and that became healing. And it was really about experimenting with texture and experimenting with different colors that it just became really a lot of fun. And also during this time I became skeptical that being an art teacher was really what I wanted to do. I was taking higher level courses about and learning about the curriculum and also learning about how competitive it was going to be to land a good job in a good school district. Unfortunately a lot of the schools are getting cut budgets, you know, that they're losing their budget for theater, art music.

[00:08:11] And so it was very competitive, and I believe still is, to get a job like that. And, frankly, I didn't have the best grades that year. That year it was a difficult and took a toll on my grades certainly. So it just, it wasn't seeming so realistic. And then at the same time, my eye condition was progressing. Within six months, I wasn't able to drive. So it was kind of bizarre. I'm not running into things, but I have what's considered low vision enough to the point where I can't drive. So it wasn't feasible, it just didn't seem feasible to be driving in and out of, you know, suburbia to these good schools that I'd hopefully land a job.

[00:08:53] And so I ultimately made the decision that I didn't want to be a teacher at all anymore. I just, if I'm going to be competitive, I'd rather just be a full-time artist. And that's kind of also--I moved downtown to where I am because I'm very mobile. At one point, every bus route in Kansas City stopped at 11th and Grand. I'm just a couple blocks away from the street car. I mean, I love being still independent in that way.

[00:09:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so you changed direction. Did it take you--you mentioned like a whole year being really challenging, of course, as you're wrestling with this and trying to figure out, you know, what that means for you as an artist, but, so, so then when you change directions, you kind of dove right into your--

[00:09:42]Katheryn Krouse: Yeah, I took a nose dive. It was the summer in between my junior and senior year that I did my very first art fair, which was the Missouri Wine Festival in Excelsior Springs. And it was at the Elms Hotel. And before that, I mean, I had no idea that this would really work. I mean, I, I think I had about 10 or 12 paintings and they were all only priced around a hundred dollars, but I sold all of them and it was like, "Oh my gosh, $1,200."

[00:10:12] I mean, I felt like such a victory that I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I just do enough of these art fairs, and have a better inventory and, you know, get a better booth." So that it's, it only becomes easier. I, it really occurred to me that people actually do buy original art and they do like having a connection with the artists even, and that you can achieve all that at these art fairs.

[00:10:38] So, I think it was really--all that kind of happened at the same time. Like I was becoming skeptical that I really, that I was a good fit to be a high school art teacher. And also like that I could actually pull off being an artist full time and that that's, you know, that's another reason I love Kansas City so much is that I can afford a lovely apartment downtown that has, you know, the master bedroom is my studio space.

[00:11:07] So it's on a corner unit. So it has four huge windows that natural light just pours in and, you know, to have a workspace like that is just so valuable to me. And to be able to operate full time out of this, but to have enough opportunities in Kansas City, that it can really afford me to do this. I mean, I've, I've considered moving to Austin several times. I do a show there twice a year. So this Pecan Street Festival I've done 10 times, and just going twice a year, it usually ends up being about a third of my income. So I actually quit. Yeah. I've thought about, maybe I should move there and do a couple shows in Kansas City. But the thing is, is that it's so expensive.

[00:11:52] I mean, there's no way to just afford to do this full time. I'd have to have another job, much smaller apartment, a much like, a much weaker studio space. Yeah. And it's just like, wow, that does make Kansas City just so charming. To both have to both be affordable and have that many opportunities still.

[00:12:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's something I've always appreciated about Kansas City since moving here. Cause I'm, I'm not a native, but when I moved here, I realized immediately how strong the arts community is here, but also how, how supportive of the arts community Kansas City is. So even if you're not necessarily an artist, I mean, you're participating in art in some way. And I love that.

[00:12:38] Katheryn Krouse: Yes. Yeah. That's so cool. I mean the different events, I mean the Kansas City Fringe Festival, I mean, there's so many events that make it so accessible to everybody that it's, it's inclusive and, and a lot of the artists are that way too I've noticed. I mean, I've met some of my best friends through, through doing this that's all people that are doing the same thing. And, and I just love it that so many artists here have share the attitude and that we're all in this together. And that there's enough room for all of us and it's right, you know, it's competitive, but it's also very, very inclusive in nature.

[00:13:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. I highly value that. I haven't found that anywhere else so far yet. But yeah. Yeah, no, that's amazing. So then I know that, because you've been on the road quite a bit and, you know, you have all these different festivals and art fairs that you participate in. I'm sure that. Some pretty interesting stories have emerged just from, you know, having to, having to deal with different aspects of, I don't even know because I'm not a visual artist, but like transporting your art, and I'm sure all of that plays into some interesting times.

[00:13:51] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah, it sure does. I mean, one of the things I can say is that it's definitely handy to be resourceful because it always seems that something's coming up to make it more difficult. I remember when I first started dating my boyfriend, we went out like a year before I even let him come close to an art fair because I didn't want him to really see how, how brutal it actually is. I mean, he thought that being an artist was like a glamorous thing. And so, the very first art fair I actually took them on was a trip to Chicago and it was for an art fair. So we put a hitch on his, on his car and we, we're hauling all my stuff up and I just remember wanting to impress him. Like I wanted it to go so smooth. I wanted to have everything just ready and just very easy.

[00:14:40] And of course the whole trip, it couldn't have been anything further from that, but like, you know, I'm running behind and we weren't able to leave on time and my paintings weren't dry. So it was all the typical things that I was really hoping to avoid this time. And we get there and this show in Chicago, it's set up is especially, I'm trying, it's very unorganized and it's just part of it. You just have to kind of get there and laugh with it and not let it bother you 'cause it's a long day. It's like early morning set up and it's just not worth getting all worked up over. And it's like that every time.

[00:15:18] And so we get there and we're in line for set up and it just starts pouring rain. And we're talk...we're laughing or we're telling ourselves, oh well, at least it's not thundering. And then of course it starts thundering. I mean, I think it started raining for a little bit and we're just waiting, pulling up closer, closer to our booth setup. I mean the whole show. Yeah, set up couldn't have been worse, like yeah, of course. It was also the first year that I expanded to a double booth. So I was used to having a 10 foot by 10 foot booth space to work with. I was very familiar with like how much art at that takes to fill up and all of that. But since I just expanded to a double booth, I was still unsure that I had enough art.

[00:16:02] I was stressing. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't have enough art. I don't have enough art." That's why we didn't leave on time. 'Cause I was still finishing things and I actually made this painting not too long before this for my bedroom. And this was a painting I really painted for me. I didn't have the intention of selling it and it was very large. It was 42 by 70, and it's this beautiful, colorful, loose rendering of a nude and the way she is, it looks like she's kind of looking out my window in the bedroom and it's just like a very fast paced, loose, colorful painting, but I really did paint for me and it was a healing piece, but because this was the first time I'd had a double booth, I was thinking, "Oh, I'll just bring that with me, just in case I don't have enough art." I'll put a really high price tag on it, because if somebody does love it, I would feel good about selling it actually, but I really kind of just want to bring it up. And somehow we lost that painting. I mean, it was the funniest, this is our thing. We're, yeah, and I don't know whether it happened during takedown, but it ended up being a great show.

[00:17:09] I did have enough art. The storm cleared up and it ended up being a very, very good show in sales and everything. And it was good for my boyfriend to kind of experience that all in its entirety. And we're just exhausted and we're driving back home and we're about halfway, we're about halfway home or in St. Louis. So all of a sudden my trailer breaks down. The wheel bearing, it turns out gave out or broke, I'm not sure. Matt was driving and he all of a sudden sees that the wheel is just all over the place and we're in a bad part of town. We're in East St. Louis, it's getting late and we have to pull over to denny's in the parking lot.

[00:17:56] And he says, "Yes, we can't drive with this." And I'm just like, "Oh man, this is the worst thing I can imagine happening." And, we, we weren't sure what to do. I was actually already in the market for another trailer, this trailer that we had, I had had for a long time. I bought it when I was getting started and it was a great deal. It was actually a trade. I think it was like $500 and a painting, but it was for a good, enclosed five by eight trailer, but it was a Harley Davidson trailer and it was very heavy. And so it's a lot of wear and tear on whatever vehicle is pulling it. And it was just time for an upgrade. It was a great thing to get me started.

[00:18:37]But I wasn't sure, you know, we were in East St. Louis. It's getting late. Like what do we do? It occurred to me: we could rent a U-Haul trailer, but that just seemed awful. 'Cause we'd have to unload it, load it, get to Kansas City, carry that all up into my apartment. I mean, that just sounded awful. So I ended up getting on Craigslist and finding a trailer. I bought a trailer. I had made just enough cash on me from the art fair in Chicago that ended up buying, I bought a trailer on Craigslist right there. So we have to unload everything from the trailer. And it's just this big pile of debris. I'm sitting in my director's chair and not having the idea that we should, we shouldn't just leave the trailer here. And I just wasn't in a position where I could necessarily afford towing it. Really, it took all my cash to buy this trailer on Craigslist.

[00:19:32] So we had the good idea to take it to a junk yard and sold it for scrap metal and for the tires. And then, then he came back with the trailer that I had bought from Craigslist. And this whole time I'm just looking, overlooking all my stuff. I'm watching the storm come in and I'm like, that's certainly not going to hit us. And sure enough, it starts raining and pouring it. So I'm pushing all my stuff under this awning at Denny, and I'm looking around and I'm grateful. I'm like, Oh, good. That big painting for my bedroom, that must be in the vehicle, 'cause it's not here looking at all this stuff under this awning. And when he came back with the new trailer, I noticed that it wasn't in the car.

[00:20:15] It wasn't in the vehicle. It was, it, there's no explanation for that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it went in the trailer and maybe we just didn't quite get that out during the transaction. I have no idea if we might've lost it during set up or not set up, but take down, you might have lost it during take down. Yeah. I don't know, but how do you lose a 42 inch by 70 inch paint on wood panel? I don't know. So it wasn't the end of the world. I ended up painting another one and it's, it makes my bedroom look just as good. Still, it was like the first thing I did when we got back. My whole bedroom just looked so sad without it. Oh my gosh, I can't handle this, like we would have to replace that.

[00:21:04]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my gosh. Ah, that sounds like a Murphy's Law trip, especially like, Oh my goodness. You know, I understand wanting to--it's so funny, you mentioned earlier, sometimes the perception of artists, maybe from people who haven't been as involved, you know, is that the life is very glamorous and, you know.

[00:21:28] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah, Instagram posts and things where we're dressed up and we're cleaned up, but they don't see--I mean, it's just so funny when people see me-- they just, they're so used to seeing me dress up all the time, the dress, and they don't realize I'm like, I'm in nasty paint clothes all day, every day. If I'm going somewhere, I do like being thoughtful in what I wear. I'm not in nice clothes all the time. It's actually the office.

[00:21:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. I remember one time being told something like, "Oh, well it just must be so amazing. You know, such a glamorous life. You get to do your dream job." And at the time I had just finished like a couple hours worth of scrubbing down our floor like on my hands and knees, right? And I was like, you have no idea. This is like the most unglamorous...

[00:22:23]Katheryn Krouse: I mean, set up for an art fair, it's just so much work. I mean, when I first got started, my booth was so much work to set up. It was, you know, I couldn't afford the pro panels that are lightweight and beautiful. So I kind of imitated them and made, made my own. And it was out of heavy plywood and fabric that was stretched over it. And it, and it was two by fours and four, but it was building a deck every weekend. I mean, it was so much work in the heat, in the rain. Yeah, it's humbling for sure.

[00:22:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes. Yeah, artists are very, very normal people doing, you know, sometimes I guess we get to do some extraordinary things, but on a daily basis, it's, it's just, it's just it's work. You know, it really is.

[00:23:12] Katheryn Krouse: And. I mean, we don't have photographers and designers, so it's everything. I mean, it's like, we're doing the marketing, we're doing the, you know, framing. So I, I don't stretch my own canvases. I generally buy them, but I mean, I did for a long time and it's a lot of work. Your hands get beaten up. I mean, it's just, that's a lot.

[00:23:29]Lindsey Dinneen: So for somebody who doesn't understand what that means, can you tell me about what stretching a canvas? Like what is that process?

[00:23:37] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah. Okay. So stretching your own canvas is really building it up from, from nothing. So you're, you're buying the wood and a lot of times you can buy it so it's, it's already angled. But basically you have to, you're taking loose canvas and pinching and hammering it and into its form over the woods stretcher. So if you're building the woods stretcher, it means constructing basically a wood frame and then taking the canvas that's cut and stretching it, stapling it, and, and then priming it with primer. And the bigger the canvases are, the harder that gets. It's difficult. Yeah. I mean, it's not that difficult. I'm just not good at it.

[00:24:23]I can be way more productive if that that's already done. Yeah, but there's a lot of other, you know, handiwork that goes into--it's putting on hang wire. It's maybe putting it in a frame or, you know, all the hardware. I always save all of that for the very last. It's like, I'll end up doing like 30 paintings, little eye hooks and hardware and hang wire all at once. And by the end of it, my hands are all torn up. I mean, it's just like, I just did this as I go.

[00:24:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. Well, and that process is actually a good segue into my next question for you. I know that probably pricing your artwork is kind of an interesting challenge sometimes because, you know, it's not just a matter of making sure that you're covering for the supplies used and the, you know, the hours of time that you've put into it. But also, I mean, it's, it's all of the learning that you have done as a professional for years. Right? It's you having invested, yeah, in yourself. And so I'm just curious. I mean, what, how does that process kind of, kind of work for you?

[00:25:29] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah. I mean, it is different. I definitely consider my work to be more on the affordable side. I work very quickly and, and oftentimes I have several pieces that I'm working on all at once. Like I'll whip up a beautiful color of violet or green and just be like, okay, who else? Who all needs this? You know, and kind of go through and get it on everything. It's so, it's hard to say exactly how much time I spend on one painting.

[00:25:55] It generally is, I think, on the quicker side of creating things, but, and it's, it is, it's a tricky question, especially when other artists are getting started and they're not sure what to price it at. But I know for me, I like to stay busy. I like to kind of have a good turnaround. I don't love taking the same paintings to art fair after art fair or First Friday after First Friday. I kind of like having a fresh inventory and because I work quickly, it affords me to be able to kind of price them moderately and still move them for a price that can afford me to do this full time. So I think it's also having different price points.

[00:26:37] I mean, I, I don't feel good about a show unless I have really at least three big paintings to sell, but it's also about the little ones too. It's about prints. I mean, I sell--all my prints are really like about the same size 11 by 14, and those are just $25. So people can buy those and sometimes even pair them or just buy a few of them and cluster them together. I mean, that's a really lovely look and also makes them accessible. Everybody can have it.

[00:27:05]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that. I think that's really great because you know, everyone does have a little bit of a different budget. And so, I think it's really lovely that you are able to cater to that and you know, somebody who can't afford the large, original yet might still get to enjoy some of the prints.

[00:27:25] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah. And the, and the prints are great too. Cause they are, you know, they're 11 by 14 they're standard size. They don't have to go custom for framing. You know, you can get very inexpensive, but nice frames on sale at Michaels. So that makes it affordable.

[00:27:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I love that. So, okay. So I know from a previous conversation with you that you're, you have a cat, is that correct? That that is involved in your creative process?

[00:27:51]Katheryn Krouse: He is a part of it. He's a part of the process. He follows me around everywhere I go. I mean, studio, if I'm taking a bath, he is right there next to the bathroom. But so when we're in the--he loves our days where we're just in the studio for hours and hours and hours. And sometimes all night, I mean, he loves it. He, I've got the--I got this little chair on Facebook marketplace in the corner and that's how he thinks that's for him. That's his place, but he's also, you know, he can also be a pain too.

[00:28:21] I mean, there's been times where I have a painting that's drying, leaning up against a wall. And he just thinks it's a good idea to just brush up against. I'm not giving him enough attention. It's like he gets into, he gets into all of it and then I have to absolutely stop what I'm doing, clean him up. Yeah. He's a funny one. And then he gets in all my pictures. It's like every time he sees that I'm trying to photograph my work, he thinks it's his moment. To sign and, and he's not wrong. I mean, it's so funny to me how I can make a post, and if he's in it, I get a better response. It's like more more people like it. So I call him my assistant 'cause he really kind of is.

[00:29:00]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. He's just, he's another artist, right? He's a model.

[00:29:05] Katheryn Krouse: He is, he absolutely is. It's really funny because he's so expressive and he's always looking at the camera to see what we're doing. Oh, he makes everything better.

[00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: So has he been the subject of some of your paintings or a subject in any of your paintings?

[00:29:22] Katheryn Krouse: You know, a little bit. I, you know, I told you when I started off as a little girl, kind of painting my cat, I actually got a resurgence of pet portrait commissions out of nowhere in the last year. And so I kind of have had fun doing people's pet portraits. They want them very colorful and expressive and, you know, their fur is often a good opportunity for texture and things like that. So I did paint a couple paintings of my cat, Ewok, just to kind of promote the pet portraits. And I swear that has like taken off. And so I was like, why didn't I do that sooner? It was just a funny thing that kind of came up really in the last year, but it's a fun, it's a really fun project, and everybody, people love their pets. People would want a portrait of their pet, but they do dog, cat likes being the place of that.

[00:30:13]Lindsey Dinneen: That's wonderful. I love it. You know, it's so funny too, because I feel like sometimes it happens as an artist is you think you're going in one direction, and then the market may shift or just, you know, your direction may change. And all of a sudden you think, "Oh, I did not expect to be doing this, but here we are."

[00:30:35]Katheryn Krouse: I mean, they're fast paced too. And because those don't take me very long, I mean, those are priced pretty fair, pretty affordable as well. So it's a good little favor.

[00:30:47] Lindsey Dinneen: That's great. Well, I have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're up for that

[00:30:52] Katheryn Krouse: Of course.

[00:30:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So first, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:31:01]Katheryn Krouse: So I think I would define art as a thoughtful form of expression. I think it doesn't have to necessarily be creating a painting or writing a song or a poem. I think it can also include how you dress or how, how you cook, how someone cooks can be a form of art. I think that it can be anything or any way that one chooses to carry themselves--how, you know, how they decorate or different, different things. I think all of these are good forms of art.

[00:31:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:31:46] Katheryn Krouse: I think an important role for an artist is to just be authentic and true to, true to themselves. And even if that's not always the most likable approach to things, I mean, I think that that's an important role.

[00:32:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree. Okay. And then my last question is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And just to give some context on that for anyone who might not know what my terms mean-- so what I'm kind of referring to is exclusive meaning that the artist puts a piece of work out there into the world and doesn't necessarily provide a whole lot of context. So perhaps, maybe it doesn't have a title or we don't know the inspiration behind it. It's, it's more for the audience to get what they will, versus, an artist who has an inclusive approach and does provide some context for it.

[00:32:46] So maybe that's the inspiration behind it or, or a title of a piece or program notes, kind of, depending on the art form, so basically helping the audience to understand what the artist was thinking or what their intention was behind it versus, not having that context.

[00:33:03] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah. That is a really good question. I think a lot of it depends on the art. I think that, for example, more abstract art or even dance or something like that--I think it is a little exciting at times to not have a context to it. My work, for example, I, I consider it to be very literal. It's a lot of cityscapes, it's pet portraits, it's, you know, the human form, and so I, for that reason, I mean, my titles even tend to be pretty direct as to what is being captured in the painting.

[00:33:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:33:42] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah, so I think a little bit of exclusive and inclusive is kind of a fun balance, I think.

[00:33:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much again, for being part of the show, for joining me and for sharing about your art and your stories where I think everyone can relate. I think everyone can relate to those moments where you're just like, "What is happening here?" And I appreciate your, your, realness, because I think that's, that's really--Ugh. I'm glad it worked out in the end, but oh man.

[00:34:22] Katheryn Krouse: Yeah.

[00:34:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And you know, I, so since I'm also local to the Kansas City area, I've actually had the privilege of seeing quite a number of Katheryn's works over the last few years, 'cause we're both part of the Kansas City Fringe Festival every year. And I actually think that's kind of where I first started to get to know your work, but, it's just gorgeous. She has the most lovely approach, seriously, I think to her paintings and... So she talks about them being literal and, and the are, but I love the fact that they're so vibrant and textured and the things that make it unique and glorious. So thank you for sharing art with the world.

[00:35:05] Katheryn Krouse: Thank you so much. I really do have a lot of fun making it.

[00:35:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And on that note, can we get to see any of your work? I mean, is there a way that we can kind of connect with you, to be able to see maybe where your next show is, or purchase art online or anything like that?

[00:35:24] Katheryn Krouse: Yes, yes. Please follow me on Facebook. And my, my art page is Katheryn Krouse Art. So K A T H E R Y N, Krouse is K R O U S E Art. And then Instagram is K Krouse Art. And, I do also have an Etsy page that just has my prints on it and that, my Etsy shop name is Katheryn Krouse Art.

[00:35:48]And then the next show is a little bit unknown. I have been doing a lot of work, or I have been selling my art through, any, any form that anyone wants to commission art through an email or reaching out on Facebook or Instagram. I'm even offering curbside pickup. So you can come pick up your painting while social distancing, right there in front of Jimmy John's on 11th and Grand. And I'm, you know, it's just so unsure of when the next show will be, that it kind of, it is a good time to get good at selling online and finding other ways to be resourceful. Yeah local art. We're all online. We're also, it's very, it's a great time to commission art from your favorite local artists, because we have time during quarantine to really put a lot of love in it.

[00:36:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Perfect. Well, thank you. And again, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing about your art. And, I just really appreciate, like I said, everything that you bring to the world and I. Just want to say thank you to everyone. Also, who's listened to this episode and if it has left you as inspired as it has left to me, I would love if you would share with a friend and we will catch you next time.

[00:37:05] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:37:16] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out, or dabbling, or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do you have options for every budget level. They provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Jeremiah Kauffman! He is a Kansas City playwright and producer, and shares his artistic journey to being brave enough to share his art with the world, as well as the value of other people's input on your work, and advice for young and aspiring artists.

Get in touch with Jeremiah Kauffman: Jeremiah6178@yahoo.com

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 009 - Jeremiah Kauffman

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I am very excited today to have, as my guest, Jeremiah Kauffman. He is a writer and playwright currently based out of Kansas City, but I am delighted to hear a little bit about his story and what inspires him. And so thank you so much, Jeremiah, for being here today.

[00:00:32]Jeremiah Kauffman: You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:00:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you would share with our audience just a little bit about who you are as an artist, as a person, and/or even maybe how you got into what you do.

[00:00:47]Jeremiah Kauffman: I live here in Kansas City and, my day job, I teach deaf children, but I I've been writing from for just years. And, most of my writing, I'm trying to express ideas, and I think it's important for people to, to experience and hopefully internalize. So, I teach during the day, but summer, but evenings and summers, weekends, I'm writing. I've written a number of plays, one of--what--actually written about six plays, one of which has been produced last summer, and I'm currently producing another play, which is scheduled to be performed in July, but right now, of course, everything is really iffy. It may turn out to be a strictly online production, but we'll see. I live with five cats and, and, I just try to express myself through my writing. Yeah, so a little bit about me.

[00:01:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, what got you into writing in the first place? What kind of jump-started that?

[00:01:48]Jeremiah Kauffman: Books probably, my family. So I have a poet, I mean, excuse me. I have an aunt who is a poet and she was kind of famous in her day. Her name was Elsie Melchert Fowler. So I knew I had that background, and my grandfather was an avid book collector, and so I was always surrounded by books. And so he was--when I was, when I was a toddler, when I was little, he was always reading to me. And, so I developed a love of reading. And so, I decided probably early on when I was in college that I wanted to be a writer. And, so I will go to the library to do my homework and end up just reading books and then regretting it later.

[00:02:28] But, so I was always enthralled by books, always enthralled by writing. And, so I have sort of a literary artistic background. I have an uncle who's an artist--a great, great uncle--who's a noted artist. And so I think it was a combination of my background and my grandparents sort of fostering a love of reading and writing and books . Yeah. And then the need to tell a story. I've always needed to tell stories and I wanted to get stories out. And also inspired by other artists, such as my, as I said, my aunt and my uncle and, Vincent van Gogh is another example. So it's a combination of just my upbringing, my surroundings, and the influence of other artists.

[00:03:21]It's kind of hard to pin down, because I grew up surrounded by art, but I guess I mentioned Vincent van Gogh. My grandmother loved him, and so I was exposed to his art pretty early on. And my mother hated him and said that he was crazy. And I thought, well, here's this dichotomy. There's just this, this contrast here. And it, my grandmother just loves him and my mother can't stand him. And so that intrigued me as a kid. I'm like, how could this be? How could somebody elicit such strong reaction?

[00:03:55] Such strong contrast and reactions from two different people. And my grandmother and my mother had very personnel, different personalities. My mother was, my mother was kind of distant. She had a difficult time expressing love, and my grandmother was the opposite. She was very warm and very embracing. And, the interesting thing about that is--van Gogh, his mother was very distant, and cold also. And, but, he loved very deeply. And I think that's kind of where my grandmother and van Gogh kind of connected. They both loved very deeply. And it was just a very intriguing story that just got me really interested in art because his art was very moving and he, and he used art to communicate in the way I use writing to communicate. And so, but that's just one little story from my background that got me, I suppose thinking about art at a deeper level than just saying, "Oh, there's a pretty picture." But understanding who the artist was and what went into it and why they painted that and why one person loves it and another person can't stand it and so forth.

[00:05:08]Lindsey Dinneen: In fact, it's so much richer if you learn what's behind it and, and I, I love that you had that moment of realizing that your mom and your grandma had such different opinions on the same person. And why, why was that? That's, that's really neat.

[00:05:28]Jeremiah Kauffman: Yeah. And actually, if you don't mind my interrupting you-- van Gogh, one of the things that he always wanted to know, just as much as the painting itself, if you want to know who painted it and what they were like. And so who created the painting was just as interesting and as important as the painting itself.

[00:05:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Sort of with van Gogh, and then you mentioned that there were other--you know, artist was really in your blood--your family, so deeply artistic and creative. Were there other people that inspired you or encouraged you along your writing journey?

[00:06:05]Jeremiah Kauffman: Well, there's a whole host of writers I've always enjoyed reading, some of whom--so like in terms of like literary inspiration, in terms of other novelists and storytellers-- I found a lot of inspiration from Mark Twain, Henry James, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, André Gide, and, it's just, it's a really long list. Yeah, I was inspired by a lot of 'em, of literary writers, artists. Also what kind of inspired--I thought it was awesome that my grandfather's uncle, his name is, his name is Ernest Melchert. We called him Uncle Ern and he was an etchist. He did dry point etching prints. And, I just thought it was amazing that this man had so much out there and he, he had a day job too.

[00:06:55] He worked for a paper company, and in Chicago and, but he was constantly producing art. I mean, it, it was an obsession with him almost. And so he has art in, you know, the Art Institute in Chicago and the Library of Congress and the Smithsonian in their collections, and I thought that was very inspiring. So I thought this man, he put his heart into this and he worked really hard and he was able to share it with other people and that was inspiring. And it isn't like, I don't have to just sit in my room and just scribble some stuff out and no one ever sees it again. Never never sees that.

[00:07:33]I thought if I work really hard, people can experience my art. And so he actually, sort of inspired me to actually keep working in and, and make the effort to share it with other people. José Faus is a, an artist here in Kansas City and a writer, and he encouraged me to keep writing and sharing my writing. And Eve Ott is a local area writer and she encouraged me to, to write and share. Both of them are very successful writers, and Sharon Eicher is another local writer and jazz singer, and she also encouraged me. So there's a number of local writers who sort of mentored me, especially Eve Ott. I consider her one of my closest and most endearing mentors. So once you're interested in or something, you know, get a, find a local mentor who can continue to encourage you and work with you.

[00:08:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Having, having the support of local artist who maybe are a little further into their career. And who can help guide and direct and make good suggestions. That's really important and helpful. Yeah. That's great that you have that here. So when you first produced, which was last summer, how was that? I mean, did that feel really good? Was it scary? Was it, you know, what were the emotions that you went through when you actually did put your work out there into a play for the first time that other people would be able to go and see.

[00:09:14]Jeremiah Kauffman: I experienced a whole range of emotion from terror, fear, doubt, self doubt, to excitement, hope. You know, I guess, the fear of, you know, will this work out, you know, or will it be a failure? Which you know, was constantly, constantly trying to be down with the, excitement that someone's actually going to see something and experience something that I've, I've written and hopefully move them.

[00:09:42] So when I did this, I didn't want to just entertain. I wanted to move the audience. I wanted to change-- basically change their perspective, maybe even their lives. So it was just a constant tug of war between my fears and my hopes and aspirations and ultimately most of the time I was very happy, hopeful, but it was also stressful because, you know, I was also directing and producing. And so, there's the stress of the business end of it. Then there's the stress of the directing end of it. But in the end, I think it worked out, but it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work. You can't give up. You can't, you can't say to yourself, "I can't do this," because once you say that it's a slippery--start saying that, it's a slippery slope.

[00:10:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. When you finished the project, did you feel that you came out with more confidence to be able to do it again?

[00:10:43]Jeremiah Kauffman: Yeah, that's why I'm doing it again because I did. I developed some confidence, and confidence can come. You know, you can see your product, your play and say, "Wow. That was great!" But it always helps to have another set of eyes, which is what an audience is, and so, some of that confidence also comes from when people say, "You know, I liked what you did. I think you should do something else."

[00:11:07] I mean, do something in addition. So, so yeah, I came out more confident partially because I got to see what I had written performed. And then also, because other people encouraged me--audience members, festival coordinators, directors, other critics. So, and if you don't put yourself out there, you won't have the opportunity to get feedback from anybody. Feedback is sometimes negative. But it's also positive. And so if you don't put yourself out there, you'll never get that positive feedback. Be scared and just try it because you might be surprised at how well it comes out, or you might be surprised at how-- even if it doesn't come out the way you want to-- there'll be somebody there who says, "Try again."

[00:11:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Right, and having that feedback is so valuable so that you can go back and make changes. So that the next time you produce it, it gets just a little bit better every single time.

[00:12:07] Jeremiah Kauffman: And if I could jump in, I'd say that when a critic evaluates work and it's not always positive, don't take that personally. A professional critic will be very professional and they'll say, this is what went well, this is what didn't go well; what needs to be, what needs to be modified or changed or develop further and take that seriously. Most critics aren't going to be hateful. So that's why you want to put yourself out there. So you can have people, both audience members and critics, give you some feedback. I think even if it's not positive, that should give you the motivation. It gives me the motivation to try again, and see if I can do a better job the second time around.

[00:12:52]Lindsey Dinneen: It's easier to take things to heart than it is to pick it apart a little bit and go, okay, this is the feedback that's really valuable to me, and not to get discouraged by somebody who doesn't quite understand what you're going for. But what's great about even that is then you get to find out what didn't translate very well to the audience. And that's invaluable for you to know. I mean, that was something that happened for me early on is learning that there were aspects of what I was producing that people just didn't understand. And so I had to really make sure that I was communicating that much more effectively. So it is helpful. So what advice would you have for somebody who's maybe just starting out or really nervous about taking, say something that they've been doing by themselves for themselves primarily, and putting it out in the world for the first time?

[00:13:55]Jeremiah Kauffman: Well, choose something that is meaningful to you and you're passionate about. 'Cause so, so we write lots of stuff as writers, and sometimes we're passionate about it. And sometimes it's just an exercise, but one, select something that you're passionate about and then have other people read it. And just be brave and just have other people read it or have them read a variety of things that their passion that you're passionate about.

[00:14:19] And, then the one that seems to really engage people, really hook them. I, by the way, have stage fright. And I, I don't like public speaking and it scares the heck out of me. But then take the next step after you have, colleagues or friends or family read your work, then do a public reading and there's lots of places where you can do public readings. Here in Kansas City, we have something called The Writer's Place. And you can go to these events at these, or bookstores or jazz clubs or whatever, but you have readings, so read it and that does two things. One, it gets you used to performing in front of a group or having your work performed and it also allows you to receive feedback. The other thing I suggest is that you, when you're writing something you're really passionate about, hire someone or find some way to do a cover for it.

[00:15:10] And so, whether it's a short story or a play or a novel, find somebody who can do what would ultimately be a book cover or a promotional cover for your writing. Each of my plays, I've done a cover. I've, I have a graphic artist that I've used. His name is Josiah Scott. He's also my editor and he just comes up with these wonderful covers. What's important about that is, when you see the cover of your story or your play, or maybe even a performance piece, suddenly it comes alive. It's like, wow, this is real. This is, this is it. I'm naturally doing this, and it can inspire you to keep working on it and developing it.

[00:15:52] And then I would also suggest getting involved in, or I should joining, different organizations, writing organizations and finding out who the publishers are and what they're seeking, and don't ever submit something to a publisher that doesn't match what they're looking for. So if it says, we're looking for stories with female characters from diverse cultural backgrounds, or we're looking for stories on LGBTQ characters, or or we're looking for fan fiction for kids, don't send them something that doesn't fit that category. But instead focus on whatever your category is, focus on those publishers, and send it.

[00:16:41] And you will be rejected multiple times, but just keep sending and sending and sending and sending and sending, and follow the directions. If they say what size font to use, use that font. It's kind of like grant writing. I've done grant writing in my job. And when the grant writer said, this is the format you should be following, this is the topic, this is the size of your font. Do it. Yeah, you're going to get rejection, but just keep doing it because ultimately you won't be rejected. But if you get rejected and you say, I can't do it well, then, you know, you'll end up--well, that'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:17:19] You know, I don't know how many times, J.K. Rowling submitted "Harry Potter." It was rejected repeatedly, but she kept doing it, and her story isn't unique. It's just, that's just the way it is. So I suppose, that's some advice. I guess the last piece of advice is just write about what your passions are. Whatever about what you're passionate about, write about what you feel deeply about, because that's where your energy will come from and that's what will produce your best work.

[00:17:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Great advice. Thank you.

[00:17:49]Jeremiah Kauffman: You're welcome. I hope so.

[00:17:54] Lindsey Dinneen: So I just have a couple questions that I like to ask my guests if that's okay with you. Okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:18:09]Jeremiah Kauffman: Wow. I've never been asked that question before, but what is art? I guess art is any creative process to produce something that's meaningful to the artist and they want it to show up other people. And I don't really, I don't think there are any boundaries to what art is. There are no limitations. And if you produce a sculpture or a performance, choreographic performance, apart, whatever or painting. And someone says, ah, that's not art. If you say it's art, because the creative expression of what you're trying to share with others and it is art. So, I'm not one that looks at a particular, you know, like painting, you know, All right.

[00:18:52] So somebody paints hyper-realistic babies or, or kittens. And someone says, yeah, that's art because that's hyper-realistic. But the, the abstract painting that somebody did --that's not art. That is not true. The abstract painting is just as much art is the cute little kittens. It's just the art is the expression of creativity. That's all it is. I don't think we should pigeonhole art. Art's anything that illustrates emotion from both the artist and the viewer. It's something that entertains and teaches, and something that can be used to make our lives better. It can be something that improves our society or just makes us happy or just helps us feel better about ourselves or helps us, it gives us comfort when we need comfort or gives us inspiration when we need to be inspired, and if it affects and produces all range of emotions. And I think that if there's an emotional response, then that's also art.

[00:20:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:20:08] Jeremiah Kauffman: I can't speak for all artists, but for a lot of us, the role of an artist is to, to move people and to hopefully elicit, inspire some kind of change in others. Some kind of, so, all right, you know, it could be producing positive change in society. So the role of the artist might be, of some artists might be, let's take-- the, the novels that were written about the canneries and the meat packing plants. That was a form of art, but it was designed to move people to make change and make positive change in society. The role of the artist is to entertain. You know, the role of the artist is to help other people love more deeply, to feel more deeply, to elicit joy, to elicit critical thinking too. Encourage people to also become artists. See, if I'm writing and I don't inspire anyone else to write then what was, what's the point? You know, I hope that as a writer, I inspire other people to write. So an artist is also someone who, whose role is to encourage the continuation of art.

[00:21:27]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. And I have one final question for you and that is, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I'll define my terms there. So, inclusive meaning that when the artist creates their work, they do give some context behind it. So they might say what inspired it or what they were going through at the time. You just sort of know a little bit more of the background, versus exclusive being that the artist puts their work out there and just lets their viewers experience it and take what they will without having context.

[00:22:09] Jeremiah Kauffman: I don't see anything wrong if someone wants to be inclusive; that's their choice. But I don't think it's required, because I think one of the awesome things, one of the really cool things about art, is that it's kind of fun and it's also, I think good for people to look at art and to critically look at it, not critical in whether good or bad, but critically evaluate it in a way that gets them thinking about what was the artist thinking. See, we want our minds to be active. We want our minds to be deeply engaged. And if we're looking at art and we don't have that background, it forces us to really look at it and think about it and ponder it and, and try to understand it. And it really does help develop a level of higher-order thinking skills.

[00:23:02] And in our society, we really need people with good, with very effective, higher-order, cognitive thinking skills and, and art can get us there. And I don't, so I don't think it needs to be, inclusive. Sure the backstory is great, but I also really don't mind, and enjoy looking at art and trying to just, you know, experience, whatever I feel at the moment and experience maybe what the artist wanted me to feel, but didn't, but didn't explicitly tell me. And in some sense, isn't it kind of like a spoiler, when they like a movie and they say, this is what happens at the end. Well, the artist says, well, this is what I'm trying to, it's kind of spoiled then, isn't it? You want to go through the same creative process or similar creative processes the artist went through.

[00:23:57] Lindsey Dinneen: I like that perspective. And I have not heard it put this way yet, but I really liked what you said about, by not having the context, we can go along in that creative journey with our viewers or, or with the artist. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that perspective. Thank you.

[00:24:16] Jeremiah Kauffman: Well, thank you. 'Cause I've never--that is really a new question for me. One of the things is, is a teacher I'm trying to teach my kids higher, higher-level thinking skills, higher-order thinking skills, and I think art can get us there.

[00:24:34] Lindsey Dinneen: I agree. Well, thank you so much again, Jeremiah, for sharing your perspective on art and, kind of, all of your inspiration and advice. I certainly appreciate it. I know our listeners do too. And is there a way for us to be able to connect with you if any of our listeners are interested in seeing one of your plays or, you know, learning more about, about what you do?

[00:25:02]Jeremiah Kauffman: I'm open to meeting with anybody, getting to know people. I'm an introvert, but when it comes to art, I tend to enjoy connecting with other people because art is such an important part of our culture, and it's a necessary part of our culture. It's a necessary part of the human experience. So you can email me. You have my email address, right?

[00:25:28] Lindsey Dinneen: I sure do.

[00:25:30]Jeremiah Kauffman: I respond to all emails that I see.

[00:25:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, well thank you again so much, Jeremiah, and thank you to all of you listeners who have listened to this episode. And if it has left you as inspired as it is, it has for me, I would love for you to share it with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Elizabeth Cooper! She shares her stories about teaching herself drawing and photography, and how art has helped shape her life even as a side hobby (for now!). She talks about what art teaches its participants, and that you don't have to do art perfectly in order to enjoy it. Special note: the ladybug photo for this episode's cover art is Elizabeth's own photography!

Get in touch with Elizabeth Cooper: https://www.facebook.com/elizabeth.campbell.756412

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 008 - Elizabeth Cooper

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello! Welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Lindsey and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Elizabeth Cooper. She is a wonderful, wonderful person. I'm blessed to actually know her; we're related, she's my cousin, which is awesome. And we grew up very close together. So she is a fantastic person in general, but she is also an artist in her own right. And I'm excited just to listen to her stories and share her experiences with you all. So thank you for joining me, Elizabeth.

[00:01:04]Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah, thank you for having me. This is a new experience and I'm looking forward to it.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. So, first of all, just, do you mind just sharing a little bit about you and the different art forms that you've dabbled in and all that fun stuff?

[00:01:18]Elizabeth Cooper: Okay. So yeah, as you said, I'm Elizabeth. I'm Lindsey's cousin and, I live here in Virginia and, have kind of gone into art as I've gotten a little bit older. It was actually--it was fun watching Lindsey and Ashley dance and, my art story actually starts with Jason. He was kind of my, my-- I don't know what to call him! I always looked up to Jason and for everything, you know, we did everything together, growing up and...

[00:01:44] Lindsey Dinneen: So for--and I'm just going to interject real fast--so Jason is my older brother and Ashley's my younger sister. So, so yeah. So all of us cousins? No, no, you're fine. But for those who don't know all of us-- cousins, we, we spend a lot of time together growing up. So there's, there's your context. Back to you.

[00:02:00] Elizabeth Cooper: Yes we did. Yes. So yeah, I actually started drawing because of Jason. He started drawing mazes back--I don't even know how old we were. And, he started drawing mazes and of course I wanted to copy, you know, everything that he did. So, I started drawing mazes and that's kinda how it started. From there, I don't remember what he ended up doing if that's all he did. Well, he was always doodling something anyway. But, outside of doodling, I started drawing, just usually Lord of the Rings related. 'Cause I was obsessed with that when all and all that came out. So, I started drawing, like copying pictures of, you know, their swords or the crowns or the necklaces, you know, the jewelry, and that kind of stuff that they had.

[00:02:45]You know, I thought they were gorgeous pieces. That's art in and of itself, just the designs that they had. So I started just copying those. You know, I see a picture, I look at the picture and kind of freehand it. And, so then from there I started drawing houses, which I think also might have been adjacent thing. I think he had designed a house or something and something that we had talked about, you know, that it would be fun to design our own houses one day and build them and whatever. And so, so then I started drawing houses, like layouts for houses, just very basic ones, And, you know, all the different ways that you can do it in the different types of houses. So I had a lot of fun with that. And then, we have an uncle that is an artist and I used to look at all of his stuff and I'd talk to him sometimes and be like, all right, "Can you help me with this perspective?" Or, you know, "I want the shadows here," you know, whatever. And he kinda told me things here and there and helped me out.

[00:03:40]Usually what I think of in my head is not what comes out on the paper. So, you know, yeah--so that gets frustrating sometimes, you know. It can be easily like, all right, forget this, you know? And there's been many projects I've done that with--all right, this is not working, I'm done. I remember taking art in school, which is just the, you know, again, the beginning basics of art, but I just really enjoyed it. I enjoy being able to, to take nature or, people or, you know, whatever, and just be able to put it on paper. I haven't done a lot of drawing in the last several years.

[00:04:12]I do like to color, which is a totally different thing and kind of cheating because then somebody else does the art, but I guess there, I guess there's art in the colors and... But so, yeah, so it's been a little while since I've done a lot of like drawing stuff, but I pulled it all out the other day, for my best friend, who's getting ready to have a baby this summer. And, so I started drawing an alphabet book for her, which-- it's coming along very slowly. And, it's definitely kind of saying "Well, it's not quite what I had in my head," but some of the stuff has come out better or different.

[00:04:46] And it hasn't necessarily been a bad different, just different than what I was thinking. You know, that it would be, So, yeah, I, I've enjoyed drawing buildings. I've done some sketches of some old barns and some old buildings that I've either had the privilege of living next to, or of working by. And I really enjoyed that, the landscape, you know, drawing landscapes and stuff. And then with that, I guess that's kind of-- I wouldn't say that drawing got me into photography. I'm actually not sure. I'm pretty sure when I got into photography--I was trying to think about that-- when I started, I've always loved taking pictures as far as I can remember. You know, way back when we had like rolls of film that you had to put in your camera, you know, and hope that you got the shot, right?

[00:05:38]But, you know, on all the missions trips and stuff, I always love taking my camera and I would get rolls and rolls and rolls of pictures. And, so over the years that's kind of developed-- I've done a lot more photography than I have drawing, actually. But, I think my, my favorite thing to do --to take pictures of is, again, nature. I'm a huge outdoors person. I love to be outside. I could literally spend all day outside and, I am just awed by, by the beauty of nature. And, I love capturing it and you know, the colors and the detail of it. My favorite thing, in even within nature to photograph is just details. Like, I've been able to get some really good pictures of grasshoppers, like really up close, where you can see their eyes and, you know, or butterflies--you can see the details in their wings and, I think it's kind of a funny thing, but I think bug's eyes are very fascinating, if you've ever looked at a bug's eye.

[00:06:41]So I have a lot of pictures of, like, close-ups of bugs' eyes. Yeah, so, yeah, I just love the detail and how intricate it is. And I've done--I had the privilege of photographing Ashley's wedding--being one of the photographers for that. And, that was outside of what I normally do, but I had so much fun with that and was very grateful for, you know, for her trusting me to help with that. It's a big, that's a big thing. Right now, most of my pictures, I actually take on my phone, and I'm hoping eventually to actually get a good, working camera, and then be able to do more with it. Someday, my, my dream would be to be able to take a theme, be it, huh, bugs or, you know, or flowers, or even, you know, castles or old churches-- you know, something like that, but be able to go around and photograph all those things.

[00:07:40] And then, you know, make, make a book out of it. You know, be able to partner with somebody that can write and, you know, put together like a picture book. Just to be able to showcase, you know, all the, all the beautiful things that are, that we have in this world.

[00:07:56] Lindsey Dinneen: That'd be amazing.

[00:07:57]Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah. So that's kind of on the, that's on the bucket list. That's the, you know, a dream thing to do maybe someday.

[00:08:02]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you actually kind of have dabbled in creating products from your photography. Is that correct?

[00:08:12]Elizabeth Cooper: Yes. Yeah, I have, yeah, I've done stuff through Shutterfly, where I've been able to take the pictures that I've taken, and I make a calendar for my mom every year. And, I honestly, I'm trying to see what else I've done with it-- the calendars I've done. There's so much you can do pictures, you know, just plain, plain pictures, little gift things. I've always thought it would be neat to be able to take the pictures and do something with it, whether it's, you know, selling products with the pictures on it to raise money for, you know, a charity, or for a mission or something like that.

[00:08:43]I'd love to be able to, to share the pictures that I have, but then also do something, you know, do something good with it too. Not just, not just sell it, but like I said, do something good, some sort of charity or something that I can then help donate to.

[00:08:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, that would, that would be incredible. So for both photography and drawing, have you had any training, so to speak, in them? Or like, have you taken classes? Or is this you've just sort of learned as you go?

[00:09:10]Elizabeth Cooper: It's really been a lot of learning as I go. For drawing, the only thing that I, like, classes that I've had for that was what we took--goodness--a long time ago.

[00:09:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yeah.

[00:09:23] Elizabeth Cooper: When we did, when we did AMP. Yeah. And, so that was a while ago. Yup, yup. Again as kids. So that's actually the only, you know, the only lessons that I've had, as far as art goes. You know, I've looked stuff, I've looked stuff up online, like for this book that I'm doing now for my friend, you know, I'll look stuff up online. Okay. How do you draw, you know, kind of follow like the step by step instructions. And I have, I, over the years, I've bought all kinds of books on drawing, you know, how to do pencil drawings and nature drawings and, you know, stuff like that. Kind of, you know, detailed books on kind of the techniques of how to, but I've never actually taken like an art class like that, like a drawing class, which I think would be be a ton of fun to do. 'Cause I really do enjoy it. I enjoy drawing and yeah.

[00:10:16] And then for photography, no, I haven't taken anything for that. And I've talked to different people and again, I have books and stuff that I've purchased over the years that I've looked through 'em or different people that I've talked to, but nothing, you know, no official class or anything. Which, again, that would be something, I mean, I would love. I would love to take an official class. 'Cause I know, I know nothing compared to, you know, the things that you could, especially with these, you know, the cameras that you can get up. So many settings and stuff. There's so many cool things that you can do with them. So hopefully someday I'll be able to expand and kind of do more of that and, become better. Which is the beauty of, well, really any sort of art form, you know, you can always expand it and work on it and learn, learn new techniques and stuff to, you know, to to make it better or, or just different, not even better, just different.

[00:11:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Yeah. New perspectives even, or, or different techniques or, or just, yeah. Yeah. I love that. So I know this is going to be probably a difficult question to answer, but do you have like a favorite photo you've ever taken? Something that like really stands out to you?

[00:11:26]Elizabeth Cooper: Hmm. That is a

[00:11:28] Lindsey Dinneen: I question.

[00:11:29] I know! Or like a couple, I mean, it doesn't have to be one, but I'm just curious if you were like, "Oh my goodness, I can't believe I captured this moment!" You know, or something like that.

[00:11:38] Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah. I do have a few like that. And the few that are, like some just, flowers that I've gotten, where like the lighting was just perfect. And so I do have a couple of flower pictures that, you know, that definitely rank up there as some of my favorite ones. And then, like I said, I have a lot of pictures of closeups of, you know, bees or butterflies or grasshoppers. And, those tend to be my favorite too. I really liked those, I guess. I don't know why it fascinates me so much. Just, I think, cause they're, they're different, and I dunno. But I do have some of those that, that would also probably rank up there as some of my favorites. I have a really good one, actually that I got recently of a, a lady bug on a leaf, and it's like this perfectly green leaf and a lady bug. And it's--the lady bug sticks out so nicely on the green leaf. The only problem is that it's not facing me. If it was facing me, it would be like the perfect picture.

[00:12:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh!

[00:12:35] Elizabeth Cooper: But, but it's, but it's still good. And I have said that I really, I really liked that one too. It turned out really well.

[00:12:40] Lindsey Dinneen: That's neat. Kind of a random question, but have you ever captured a bumblebee?

[00:12:45]Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah. I do have pictures of bumblebees! Now, they're not generally flying. but I do have some pictures of bumblebees.

[00:12:52] Lindsey Dinneen: They're really cute. We have this one that's been like hanging out with us every time we'll, you know, we have spent time outside for whatever reason. There are these two, like, enormous bumblebees that are like super fluffy and they just hang out and I've been trying to capture it. And I can't. So.

[00:13:10]Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah, well, there's one section of our fence that I think that they're in, that's kind of where they've made home. And so we have a bunch of these wood bees by our gate, actually. And, I've noticed this year, when I go to fill up the dog bowl outside, just, you know, the regular spigot, you know, off the house. A couple of times I've turned that on and a bee will fall out of there. So, I don't know why they're in there. It's kind of an odd thing, but then, you know, then their wings are wet, so then they can't fly. So I've actually been able to, you know--I'll usually find a leaf or something that I can pick them up and move them somewhere I know it's going to be safe, that they can dry out and then can go on their way. But because I've had them right there on that leaf, I've been able to get some good close-ups of them being right there. Last year I got a really good one of one clinging onto the fence. Yeah. So, so yeah, I do have a few.

[00:14:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, well, that's awesome. I was, I was thinking about this. It's just top of mind when you were talking about the bugs and I was thinking that just bumblebee, I mean, they they're hovering really close to us and, and they're just so cute. I mean, they're very fascinating. I've never seen a bumblebee or maybe it's, maybe it's a wood bee or whatever, but I've never seen one so close. And yeah. Anyway ...

[00:14:25] Elizabeth Cooper: They're not afraid. They just, yeah, it would be really neat to be able to capture one like mid air. You know, flying. That would be really cool. And I don't know, because I use my phone most of the time all the time. I don't, I don't know how easy that would be to do, but I would imagine with, you know, with a good camera. Then yeah, I'm sure that would, that would be something that could be captured.

[00:14:50] Lindsey Dinneen: So, thank you for sharing. That's, it's really, it's inspirational to me to know that, you know, sometimes you look at--well, we were talking about this actually before we started recording--is sometimes you look at it, an artist that's, you know, first of all, probably had years and years and years and years and years of experience, but also, you know, just this caliber where you think, "Oh my goodness. I mean, it's just amazing. And I could never do that." And, so I think it's really inspiring to hear that, you know, yeah, there's, there's maybe some forms of drawing or photography that you look at and you go, you know, that's, that's not me now, but I think it's amazing that you're, you know, you're creating art in a different way. I mean, you're creating what you are interested in creating, and it doesn't have to be like masterpiece quality from day one, and you're still trying, you know?

[00:15:44] Elizabeth Cooper: Right, right. Well, I think that you, you know, with, with art and any form of art, whether it's dance or whether it's photography or, you know, it really teaches you patience, and you know, the importance of, of trying to get, you know--you failed, doesn't look like how you want to do. Alright, let's try it again and try something different, you know? And it, you know, so it really, it helps teach you perseverance and patience and, yeah, the importance of, of like you're saying. Yeah, it doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, you know, that can be good enough.

[00:16:19] Yeah,

[00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that perspective. It's, there's value in the creation process and not just the final product, you know?

[00:16:27]Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's that's really good perspective. I like that a lot. Well, I have a couple questions for you if that's okay. So I like to just kind of, you know, hear different perspectives on these, these questions. So first, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:16:46]Elizabeth Cooper: So I never really, honestly, I never really thought about that before, but I think I would say, I would define art as a piece of, of work that, that someone is inspired by. Like someone sees something around them and they're inspired by it. And so they want to then recreate it in a way that means something to them. Does that make sense? So, I mean, I feel like art is, is, you know, it, it's a very personal thing. You know, everybody sees it differently. And so, yeah, I guess I would, I would just define art as anything that, that is inspired by the things around you, that then you create something from that inspiration.

[00:17:36] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's perfect. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:17:43]Elizabeth Cooper: I would say being true to yourself and your passion. A lot of art is--it's interpretation of what, what you see around you and what inspires you. So, you know, I would say that it's really being, being yourself and letting yourself and what you see, shine through.

[00:18:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So being true to--yeah, being true to yourself as you, as you create. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:16] Elizabeth Cooper: Yeah.

[00:18:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. And then the, final question I have-- I'll define it a little bit further than the question itself, but, do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And kind of where I'm going with that thought is, so with exclusive, it's kind of an artists creates something, kind of puts it out in the world and doesn't provide any context behind it. So it's completely up to the viewer or participant or whatever, to kind of draw their own conclusions. Versus inclusive, meaning that, you know, you have--they provide some context to their work, so maybe it's a description or what inspired it, or what was going on in their head. You know, like just having a little bit more context as far as what the artist's intention was.

[00:19:04]Elizabeth Cooper: I think I'm actually, I'm actually torn on that. Because I, because art does tend to be such a personal thing, I feel like there's, there's place for both. You know, if I, as the artist, draw something very specific and I have a story that goes with it, and that's what I want to portray, then it might be important to have some sort of, of background out there to know kind of what's going on in the picture. So that way, when the person is looking at that piece of art or looking at that piece of photography or whatever, then they, they know what I, as the artist, am seeing and thinking.

[00:19:42] But then I think there's also a place for--okay, here, I'm going to make this masterpiece and this is what it means to me personally, but here you look at it and what is, you know, what do you think it means? Okay. Or what do you want it to be to you? So I feel like there's really place for, for both. Yeah. I don't know that I would say that, you know, one or the other is, is better. I think it really depends on the piece and the artist's intention behind it. So, I mean, I know for me sometimes when it comes to like some of the dance stuff that, you know--like we've gone to watch you and you and Ashley do. But it's nice, it's nice to have a little bit of the background to know, Oh, okay. This is what's going on. You know, like in the, you know, for this dance, this is what this is supposed to mean, or whatever. But then that's not always, you know, it's not always necessary. So I really do think that it depends on, on what the art form is and, and, what the intention is behind it.

[00:20:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's a great answer. Well, thank you so very much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time to do so. And, you know, I--again, I have some context here that maybe some of our listeners don't, but I have seen some of Elizabeth's drawings and her photography and she is a beautiful artist, doing....

[00:20:59] Elizabeth Cooper: Aww, thank you.

[00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Really, truly, I really love what you do. I think it's really fun. And, I like your different perspectives, especially with your photography. I've really, yeah. I like that-- like you were talking about the details and I thought, "Oh yeah, that is something that you just have really honed in on." And that's, that's neat! That, that gives you something that's a little different than just like a general shot, you know?

[00:21:21]So I just want to say thank you for creating art. I think that in general, when you are willing to, kind of, create and share, I think that just brings more beauty and inspiration to the world. So thank you. And, yeah, actually I've, I've been the recipient of some of the artwork, so, or the artwork products, I guess. So I, I'm super happy about it too. Biased, but no, I really there's a lot of value to that. And thank you for sharing your insights just about, yeah, your creation process and sort of what kind of, what inspired that journey. That's, that's really cool. So, I appreciate it.

[00:22:00]Well, that wraps up that and thank you so much to everyone who is listening to this. And if it particularly inspired you, if you wouldn't mind sharing it with a friend and, and keep making the world a beautiful place!

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Erin Paige! Erin is a speaker, author, and healing artist. She is the brilliant artist behind Love Tiles, where she paints hearts with loving-kindness, Reiki, and positive energy infused into each tile. She is an amazingly generous and positive woman, who share about the impact art can make without the artist even knowing.

Get in touch with Erin Paige: https://www.erinpaige.com/ | https://www.youtube.com/user/ErinsPaige

Bluprint: More than 13 million enthusiasts - from artists to quilters and beyond - make Bluprint their home for binge-worthy on-demand content, access to the world’s top experts and curated supplies, all served up in a fun-loving creative community. Click here and use promo code 50OFF2 for 50% off all courses!

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Episode 007 - Erin Paige

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello! Welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. My name is Lindsey and I am so delighted to have as my guest today, the absolutely wonderful Erin Paige.

[00:00:44] She is a fantastically uplifting human being, just so full of grace and kindness and empathy towards the world. So she is a coach. She is an author. She has her own journal that I've actually had the privilege to go through, and it's just incredibly uplifting and inspiring. And she is also an artist. She paints and has a few different avenues for her art. And I'm just so excited to be able to talk with her today and share her with you, because I know you're just going to get so much from her. So thank you so much, Erin, for being here. I am so excited to have you.

[00:01:27]Erin Paige: Oh, well, what a great intro. Thank you so much, Lindsey, for having me today. I'm just as thrilled to be with you, as you say you are with me. So this will be a wonderful moment in time and space to be creative together. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! And I would just love to hear a little bit more about you and about, you know, what you do and in your art, if you don't mind just kind of sharing a little bit about that.

[00:01:56]Erin Paige: Well, of course I would love to share. Well, let me just start out by saying, and I believe that if you are an artist listening to this, that you probably can relate as well, that I was born an artist. So, I grew up in a creative family. I was fortunate enough to have a mother that was, and still is, extremely creative, more on the abstract side. And my father, bless his soul--he was a mechanical engineer. And of course, when you hear about an engineer, you think very analytical and that was true with his artwork. He was creative, but more in the realistic, realistic realm.

[00:02:36]So he could draw a portrait of anyone and it would look just like them. So I had a nice balance with that and we were creative as a family and they really enhanced that for myself and for my sister, whether it was through artwork or through singing. I love to sing as well, but as I moved on throughout my adult life, I started painting hearts and getting back into the painting side of things. I had a jewelry business. I was creative through that, but if I can get a little personal here--and I think that this can be relatable to a lot of people--that I realized that I was starting to paint hearts because where I was in at that time in my life. I was not being fulfilled in the love area, if you will.

[00:03:29] My heart was really aching for someone to appreciate me for me. So I continued with these hearts and realized that it was almost like a healing journey, if you will. So the hearts evolved. I started speaking a lot more. I wrote the book and journal that I have that you mentioned, and it has hearts on it. And it really--that moment in time where I was needing to be fed. I realized that I could turn that moment into feeding others with positivity, with grace, with love and the feedback that I was getting from people when they would see my artwork. I would literally, Lindsey, I would have people stop, as they were walking by not paying attention, but then stop and then turn towards--let's say I was at an art fair--and they would stop and look and go, "I don't know. There's something about your artwork that makes me feel better."

[00:04:34] And it was really quite powerful. And I think when you hear that enough times, you realize that you are really living in a present moment and you are gifting the world with your gifts. And I think a lot of artists--that's exactly what they are doing, and they are gifting their unique gift through the arts, whether it's dance, singing, or in my case, painting hearts. So I take what I do very, very seriously. So when I'm writing or with whether I am getting ready to work with people, you know, in a workshop that is still very heart-centered, I make sure that I'm in a very positive place.

[00:05:18] If I am in that creative state, and I feel like my energy is down. I will get up and go on a walk, for instance, or I'll meditate or I'll pray just to make sure that what I am infusing into the artwork is pure positivity, pure love. I really like to say that I create and love and I give and love. So, you know, I really take that to heart. And I've got a couple examples, if I could share, one of the things that I create are love tiles and they're original. They're on four by four tiles and I paint hearts and I paint dots around them. So the, what I call like the energy, is radiating out and the loves radiating out to people.

[00:06:01] And it comes in a gift bag with an easel and my inspirational card. I call it my wallet card so people can keep it in their wallet and be inspired whenever they need to be. I had a client of mine purchased two heart tiles and she gifted them to her grandchildren. And they're young and she called me and she said, "I have to tell you about how I presented these heart tiles that I purchased from you to my grandchildren."

[00:06:30] She shared it with me and it was so precious and I just felt so overwhelmed with joy that what I was putting into the love tiles was being received by these young children. And she explained to them that it was created by a real artist--is what she said--a real artist created in love, and that these tiles, no matter where her grandchildren, children would be that she as a grandmother, she was gifting this piece of artwork to them to carry with them wherever they go. And she would always be there with them. And she said, "I just wanted to share that you are gifting your light into this world and your loved tiles are doing that."

[00:07:19] And I just couldn't appreciate that comment more than I. I just had no words for it. I got a little teary-eyed, and I know there's a lot of creatives out there that are wondering if their creative talents are being received. And I'm here to tell you that they are, if there's any doubt-- well, just don't have any doubt that when you are living on purpose, you are doing good. You are being of service to others in the world, whether someone verbally tells you or not.

[00:07:51] So the second part of this is just a few days ago. Well, yeah, it was just a few days ago that same person called me and she said, "You know, Mother's Day is coming up"--at the time that we're recording this, Mother's Day is right around the corner. And so she called and she said, "My grandkids decided to do something special for their mom." And they did like a spa day, if you will. And her son recorded this moment and the mom is laying there with her arms out to the side and she's got like a mud mask on and her little--I think it might be a six-year-old--a little granddaughter was doing a guided meditation for her mother.

[00:08:33] This is the part where, like, tears welled up in my eyes of joy. She said, "Erin, I have to tell you what's part of this recording is so precious. She is using your love tile as part of her guided meditation for her mom, like she's doing this guided meditation and she's holding your love title, Erin." And it just humbled me so much that God has given me this gift to be able to infuse this divine liquid love. I love to call it divine liquid love that we have flowing within us, and it loves us more than anything in the whole entire. It's inconceivable how much this divine, liquid love, God-love, cares for us. And I felt so honored that I have been gifted this creative side to be able to give to others. And for those that are creative out there, know that that divine liquid love that flows within them is gifting this universe with that divine love.

[00:09:36] And they should never, never, ever doubt it. And to those out there, your listeners that are not, you know, on the creative side, just know that when you see a work of art, whether you agree with it or not, know that it is coming from a place of love. It truly, truly is coming from a place of love. And if nothing else, just respect that there was a time, and--I guess I'm moving into a moment where, you know, I'd love to just reiterate the value of the arts whether it's dance, voice, poetry, writing, anything that is creative is so valuable. I was commissioned to do a work of art for the designer, the Symphony Designer Show House here in Kansas City a few years back.

[00:10:30] And I put so much of my personal love, that divine liquid love went into it. It took several days to create the work of art. And I have to tell you, Lindsey, as soon as I finished it, like, I wish I did--I didn't literally do this, but I could have slept for three days because I gave so much of my soul. I know that you can relate with the work that you do, and the shows that you put together, so much of who you are and your soul into it, that, you know, when an when an artist performs, or if you pay a certain ticket price or you decide to buy a work of art, know that there is great value in what you are purchasing.

[00:11:17] And it goes beyond just the ticket price that it will serve you beyond that. So, those are, that's how I go about my artwork and how I go about my life anymore. And I just hope that this message reaches, even if it just reaches one person, one artist or non-artist that feels compelled to dive deeper into their artistic side. Then I'm living on purpose and I'm honored to be here with you today.

[00:11:45] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. I love that you brought up the fact that you don't know who you're impacting through your art and it can even be something where, whether you consider yourself to be an artist or not--which I, as a little aside, I think that everyone is an artist in their own right. But whether you consider yourself to be one or not, you still have something to contribute to, to help make the world more beautiful.

[00:12:10] Erin Paige: I couldn't agree more. And you are absolutely on point when you say that really everyone's an artist. And I just think that everyone has a unique gift that they come into this lifetime with. And you know, it's not a gift unless you share it. I'll just be sharing it all the time, whether it's just a smile to a stranger, you never know how much they might need that. I mean, in that, you know, a smile is a form of art. I really think that. Right?

[00:12:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I agree. So from talking to you previously, I know that there was another story that you told me that I, I just think would be awesome for our listeners to hear, if you're okay with sharing it. But it was about the little art installation you did for, was it a hospital or a doctor's office? And kind of the result of that?

[00:13:01] Erin Paige: Oh yes. Okay. So I gifted several pieces or several works of art to Menorah Medical Center here in the Kansas City area, and they were installed in the cardiac department because, of course, I paint hearts. So, you know, cardiac department and my hearts--they were a good fit and they had these blank walls and they just needed life. And so I said, you know, we had talked about this and that. And you know, my heart just told me that I needed to gift them a few pieces of artwork. So I installed 10 pieces of artwork, and down this hallway that was once just white walls and several of the employees they walked by and they said, "Are you the artist.?"

[00:13:57] And I said, "Yes, I am!" And they said, "Oh, thank you so much for making our walk into work more joyful. We just love coming into work now and walking down the small section of the hallway, even if it's just a small section of the hallway, we are so appreciative of your artwork and it makes us just enjoy being in this place." And that warms my heart again. That was a moment where, I guess, honestly, I really didn't think--I kept thinking about, like, the cardiac patients and their families. I wasn't even thinking about the employees. I wasn't even thinking about beyond the walls of the box that I had built, that I was just going to, you know, bring joy to the heart patients because the artwork is actually right outside one of the physical therapy rooms. And that's one of the reasons why we chose that space. So when patients would leave therapy, they would see these hearts and--it goes back to what you say--you said earlier that you just never know who you're impacting. And I just never really thought about the ripple effect; that it wasn't just about the patients and their families.

[00:15:17] It was about the employees. It was about the doctors and the nurses or anyone that was walking through, visiting the hospital, maybe, you know? Who knows? I have these visions and I do hope that this has happened. I have these visions of maybe like visitors getting lost. I mean, hospitals, they--you can get easily lost in a hospital, right? Because of the different hallways and departments and you get off the wrong floor. And it's my hope that maybe someone, you know, took a wrong turn and they happen to go down this hallway and they see my artwork and maybe it's brought them a little peace and some love today. So yes, that's the story. Thank you for reminding me.

[00:15:57] Lindsey Dinneen: I just love that story. Yeah, that is really special. And, yeah, isn't that so interesting, because again, your original vision for--it was maybe one thing, but it actually touched, like you said, the ripple effect it, it has touched so many more lives even in than what you expected and that's, that's so cool.

[00:16:15] Erin Paige: I'll take that. It is cool. I mean, it just--I'm smiling ear to ear to think that, you know, maybe a little work of art could change somebody's--the trajectory of someone's day can change. You know, turn their smile or frown upside down into a smile. So, yeah. Yeah, I am proud of that. And I'm honored to do that for people.

[00:16:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Well, and I'm curious, if you don't mind sharing just a little bit about sort of your process in writing your guided journal, because I think that that's a pretty unique work of art in and of itself. And I'm just curious: is there like, a backstory or how did you come to create that?

[00:16:56]Erin Paige: Well, there is a story with that. So my journal is called, "I Release You to Become Who You Came Here to Be." It's a little bit long, longer title, but I just couldn't see any other way to title it, except for that. So the backstory behind it is, I am a mother of an adult now. It's hard to, hard to say that, but, he just turned 18. But for four years, when he was younger, I would text him what I called mom-isms.

[00:17:26] And they were really just divine downloads, I called them, about life. I'd be driving or I'd be doing something and I would have this message come to me about life. And so I would text my son. In fact, I have it right... I have my journal right here. Let's just say it ended up the journal is 18, what I like to call, notes to self, which started out as mom-isms and--Oh, this is a good one. So number two is: take responsibility for how comfortable you are. So really getting out of that comfort zone. And so if you can imagine me typing this out on a text message, and then I would put a heart, and then I would put "mom-ism." So the interesting thing is if you, if anyone else out there has kids, you know, that most likely you probably aren't going to get on something like this from your mother.

[00:18:23] Probably won't get a response, but I will say this, that I knew, again, it goes back to who you are impacting, who you are influencing. I kept sending those mom-isms. I kept taking what I was doing and looking at what I was doing and making sure that I was a positive impact in my son's life. And even if I was doing something, you know, we all have moments where we're probably not the most proud of, or if, you know, taking those moments and turning them around and going...okay. How can I become a better person by learning from this, and this not-so-good moment, turning it into seeing something good.

[00:19:09] And then that teaches everyone around us. They see that shift in us. So, I've been sending all these mom-ism and then out of the blue, I sent him, what is actually number three out of 18: when you feel good, you could go out and do good. And he replied and he goes, "That's a good one." And you know, out of all of them--yes, my journal book only has 18, but I have a lot more--so out of all of them that I was sending, he finally returned one message that, you know what, I'm making a difference in his life and this response is all I need, as validation, I suppose.

[00:19:52] So, that's the meaning behind, "I Release You to Become Who You Came Here to Be," and it's a working journal. So there's the statements, about what's written, so each one--there's the mom-ism or the, or the note to self, then there's a description or, you know, kind of my take on it. And then the flip the page, and there was an opportunity, some thought provoking questions for you to be able to answer. So that's the story behind the book journal. It all comes from being a mama.

[00:20:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, thank you for sharing. I know I kind of put you on the spot there, but I was very curious.

[00:20:30] Erin Paige: I love sharing those moments because I call him my grandest gift. He has been my grandest teacher, and he's real direct with me anymore. He's an adult now, ladies and gentlemen. Sometimes we don't want to hear what, you know, the truth. You know what? Oh my goodness, I just had no idea that, you know, your perception is a lot different than mine and it was good feedback. So, yeah. That's why I call him my grandest gift because he helps expand my soul every day. And I'm grateful for that.

[00:21:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that.

[00:21:05]Erin Paige: You assisted me and I'll talk about--if I could just a second, switch it to you a minute--you gifted me with a really great story. Part of when you participated in my GLAAL project. Oh my gosh. and I'd love to share a little bit about that because I think that that's just a continuation of not only the artistic side of me, but the side of me that really, and truly hopes that I leave a small little prints on this world when I leave it, when my time is up here, but GLAAL is "Go Live An Amazing Life." And that was just another message, if you will, where I was having my pity party. Okay, you know, we all have them. I always say that it's--everyone has the right to their pity party. It's how long you stay at the party that matters. One day I was having a little bit of a pity party, and I allow myself 24 hours. Now, you know, it used to be like months, if not years, where parties--I would get stuck in them and wallow in them. And you know, so typically what happens is, I crawl, you know, those moments where you want to crawl back in bed. And I'm like, man, I'm not going to talk to the world today. And then I go, wait a minute. This is so silly. Do you live an amazing life, Erin? I have an amazing son. I have amazing friends like you and so many others out there. And do you have a unique gift to share with the world today?

[00:22:45] Yes. Okay. I'll get out of bed and I'll just, you know, I'll turn my frown upside down. So I thought about it and I was like, gosh, I do live an amazing life. I'm surrounded in love and that is a gift in itself. And so I thought, well, there's other people out there that are living amazing lives and they're choosing to see the good, even in the not-so-good.

[00:23:09] I would love to hear their stories. So that's how my GLAAL project started. So I interview people. Basically, I asked them to share a GLAAL story, where they took, you know, maybe it's a moment where it was not so good and they turned it into a good moment. Maybe it's a time where, you know, love really came through and powered through for them. And you participated in this project!

[00:23:37]And it was, oh my goodness. You just, you gifted me that day. I thought about that for so long--how you too, through everything that you do are, you are impacting the world and you had shared about, you know, a couple people coming to you and, and expressing how much they appreciate you and what, and the light that you're shining out there.

[00:24:01] And, we're all in this together. I mean, you know, we're all sharing similar experiences and we should all just be sharing, sharing, sharing, sharing the unique light that you are. So that's my GLAAL project and it's really taking off and I just can't wait to hear other people's stories because I am completely blessed every time I listened to one. And so I'm just going to say one more time, thank you, thank you. Thank you for participating in my project and being a part of it.

[00:24:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. No, it was absolutely my honor and joy to be a part of it, but I would highly encourage everyone to check out her GLAAL project because it is truly inspiring. And when you need an uplift, hearing the stories is just--it's so incredible to hear how people are taking difficult situations and transforming them into beautiful things. Or sometimes it's just, you know, talking about little ways that you can make a difference and it's all really inspiring. And so actually, as a result of that, Erin, where can we connect with you and see these, see your artwork and hear these stories and all that?

[00:25:14] Erin Paige: Oh, absolutely. I would love for your audience to check it out. My website is Erin Paige, P A I G E. It's my first and middle name, erinpaige.com. And my blog is where you can see all of the GLAAL stories, and then I do have my love tiles and a journal and all of that in my products and shop, yeah, shopping sections. So that's where you can reach me. I also have a YouTube channel, which is just, if you look up Erin Paige, I'll pop up.

[00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Thank you. You definitely want to check out what she does and her work because it is really beautiful and inspiring. But Erin, I have a couple questions, if that's okay, that I like to ask my guests, if that works for you.

[00:26:01]Erin Paige: Of course!

[00:26:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay! So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:26:08] Erin Paige: Art to me is an expression of the soul. And I think that that just comes in many forms, whether it's a street performer that feels the need--even a little kid that is dancing to some music, I consider that art. So really anything that you're inspired to do that your soul is telling you to do? That's how I see art.

[00:26:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that very much. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:26:44] Erin Paige: To be authentic. I think it's vital as an artist to be as true to yourself as you possibly can. To be as authentic--oh, I just got covered in goosebumps-- that's, that's how I know I'm speaking from my authentic self, I always tell people. Yeah, just to be as authentic as possible, and that serves others. If you're not showing up in your most soulful or authentic self, you are denying those of us that are looking at your art, watching your art, listening to your art--you're denying us that divine gift. So please, please, please. think it's vital for artists to be responsible in their artwork by being as authentic as possible. And that's, that's what I have to say about that.

[00:27:40] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Thank you. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but: do you think art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is exclusive meaning that an artist puts something out there and you don't necessarily know what inspired it, what the intention for it is, or the context is just sort of like, here's my piece, and here it is for the world. And then it's kind of up to the world to interpret. Versus inclusive, meaning that the artist does share a little bit about what they've created. Maybe, the feeling that prompted it, or even just like a title or just some context to kind of help the audience, just know a little bit more about where the artist is coming from.

[00:28:31] Erin Paige: Well, my answer to that is...I think it depends. I think it depends on the audience. I think, I think there's, you can find balance with the inclusiveness and the exclusiveness to something because sometimes our art just needs to be interpreted solely by the viewer. And I think that if it calls to you to, you know, even titles... I mean, that influences the person that sees it right when they read it. So I suppose it depends on the intention of the artwork of the artist, where what's the intention behind it? Does it need to be inclusive? Or can it just stand on its own and be exclusive? Yeah, I really truly think it just depends on how the artist feels about their work of art.

[00:29:26] Lindsey Dinneen: That's another great answer. Well, I just want to say again, Erin, thank you so much for joining me on this show. And, I know that I am feeling inspired and I'm sure our listeners are too, but I just wanna say, for my own sake, thank you so much for sharing your art with the world, for being brave and being responsible and authentic in what you do and for truly making the world a more beautiful place, more inspirational place.. And, thank you for impacting people you don't even know you're impacting. I really appreciate it.

[00:30:04] Erin Paige: Well, you are--I'm just going to say, you're welcome. Someone taught me a long ago to just say thank you or you're welcome, and leave it at that. It is an honor to be with you today and to share my stories and to answer your questions as authentically as I can.

[00:30:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I love it. Okay. Well, thank you again so much to everyone who's listening to this episode. If you're feeling inspired and you have a friend or two that you feel would enjoy this too, please share this with anyone and everyone. And we will catch you next time.

[00:30:41] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:30:52] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you about Bluprint, which is the most amazing website for artists and makers of all levels. Bluprint lets you dig into anything you've ever daydreamed about doing, like dance, fitness, yoga, art, and home decorating, plus all the arts and crafts categories you know and love. More than 13 million enthusiasts, from artists to quilters and beyond, make Bluprint their home for binge-worthy, on-demand content, access to the world's top experts, and curated supplies, all served up in a fun-loving. Creative community. Super cool. And even better currently they're offering 50% off their classes. So if you are interested in taking advantage of that, learning a new skill, having an amazing time, working with experts in their fields, you will love to take advantage of this offer. And you'll just click on the link in my comments and my show notes, and you'll be rocking and rolling.

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In this episode, I welcome Roman Mykyta! Roman is an incredible professional dancer, who has trained his entire life in classical ballet and traditional Ukranian folk dancing. He shares some of the most impactful encounters with art that inspired him to become an artist.

Get in touch with Roman Mykyta: /https://www.facebook.com/roman.mykyta.5

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 006 - Roman Mykyta

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told ,where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman Mykyta: All I can do is put my part in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23]Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome. This is Artfully Told, and I am so excited that you are joining me again today to learn about stories about art. And I am just really, really excited because I have a truly wonderful person on my show today that gets to be my guest and I am really honored to have him here with me and with all of you. He is a very accomplished dancer, but also just a rock solid person, so kind and generous . So, thank you so much to Roman Mykyta for being with us today and I'm so glad you're here. Thank you.

[00:01:13] Roman Mykyta: Thank you, Lindsey, so much for having me. That was such a nice introduction. I'm so happy to be on this podcast. I think that this is a great podcast, such a great subject, meaningful encounters with art. As just mentioned before, that's such a rich topic and I'm so honored to be on this podcast and talk about it.

[00:01:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Wonderful. So would you mind just sharing a little bit about, you know, who you are and maybe a little bit about your journey with art?

[00:01:40] Roman Mykyta: Of course. So I am a dancer. The first story I want to share about my meaningful encounter with art was kind of my first inspiration to be a dancer, but I'll save that for the next bit. But when I was very young, I was inspired to be a dancer and, it was actually Ukrainian folk dancing. My grandfather was from Ukraine. As I go into the story, he brought me this video of the Ukrainian National Dance Ensemble. It's called the Virsky Ensemble. I saw that video and I was inspired to start dancing. I started in a local Ukrainian dance ensemble, but just, for anyone who's ever seen Ukrainian dancing it's--if you have an image of cossack dancing, it's the same type of thing.

[00:02:22] There's a lot of squats, a lot of big jumps and all of these, very exciting dances and tricks. And it's a mix between ballet already being part of Ukrainian culture, as well as just the, the ability to do those types of movement with good technique. I was really encouraged from a young age to start taking ballet as a type of cross training. And so I started Ukrainian dance when I was five, but by the time I was seven, I was taking ballet lessons. And just from there, kind of the rest is history. I trained throughout school and throughout high school as a dancer and doing ballet and Ukrainian dance, as well as all other, different styles of dance, folk dances, as well as styles like modern or jazz. And after I graduated high school I had the opportunity to audition for the ballet company, which was in my state.

[00:03:15] And that was Ballet Theater of Maryland. I danced in the Ballet Theater of Maryland a total of about four years--four seasons. And then there was actually an opportunity to travel to Ukraine and to work with that group, which was the very first group that was, in the video that my grandfather gave me, and as you could imagine, just that opportunity was very unique and kind of like a dream come true. And so I took advantage of that opportunity and, I went to Ukraine, starting in the fall of 2017 and I am staying there continuing to dance. And also, as I had mentioned, I went right from high school into the ballet company, but while I'm in Ukraine, I'm also getting a degree in dance, pedagogy and choreography. Just for me being there, I feel completely in my element professionally.

[00:04:09] There really is in my niche, because in addition to the normal styles of dance that you would do, for example, here in the USA, they also really focus on developing the choreographic and pedagogical skills, like in pedagogy to teach, all of the theatrical folk dancing, which is just between Ukraine and Russia.

[00:04:27] They really kind of specialize in that style. And, even when I'm in the USA, I'm usually called upon to dance some of those roles or to teach that kind of style. And so just in the longterm, having, having that experience and having that education from Ukraine really means a lot. My typical life right now--I'm living in Kiev, dancing and studying, and also doing some other jobs that are kind of new to me. I'm doing a little bit of journalism, which started with writing reviews about some of the dance performances in Kiev, but has kind of evolved into other things.

[00:04:59]I have a couple of interests, in addition to dance I love very much, but just all my life, dance and all of the other arts that are adjacent to it that are a touchstone have always been such a big part of my life, and remain such an important part of my life. It's definitely something that I'm so passionate about. I'm actually the first person in my family to be a dancer, although my parent, are both really-- not professionally--but they both really love the arts. My dad loves to play the guitar and he loves to sing. My mom also loves to sing and she likes to be in plays or in different musicals.

[00:05:35]And so that's just the love for it--all the arts in general. Oh, and I forgot to mention it's also very important-- my dad, because my family, is the type of Christians who are Eastern Orthodox--my dad is also an iconographer, which is basically making the, religious art, the icons, which just are part of our tradition. And, so that's painting basically. So all the arts are really, special in our family. And I've always been so thankful that my parents have always been so supportive of my love for all of the arts and especially for dance, and supported me every step of the way, and continue to support me.

[00:06:14]As I said, my typical, normal life right now is living in Kiev. But I am home right now, during the coronavirus. I'm working from home anyway, with my studies and it was just easier to come home during this time and do the quarantine with family. So right now I'm logging in from the USA. But, that's the overview of my life stories, especially related to dance and what I would consider also all the arts, but it's really colored by so many meaningful encounters that I've had with art, whether it's been initially inspired by it or how I feel when I, I'm going to perform, and kind of just how meaningful an experience that is to me.

[00:07:01]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have such a rich background and so much diversity with the art that you've been able to be a part of and exposed to and, with your family being so invested in it, I think that's incredible. I mean you've certainly been able to have just such a cool background that obviously shaped you as a person and as a dancer and an artist. And you're dabbling in other art, like writing with your journalism, which is very cool.

[00:07:30] Roman Mykyta: Thank you so much. I do feel very blessed.

[00:07:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, I know you do have a few meaningful encounters with art to share with us today. So I'm super excited to hear them.

[00:07:41] Roman Mykyta: Yes. Since we first talked, Lindsey, I've just been thinking about so many different things and I'll try to--I want to share all of them--and, I'll try to keep them all organized. I think the most important one that I want to share is kind of my initial encounter with art, which was basically inspired me to be a dancer and I distinctly remember when my grandfather who was from Ukraine brought me that video of the Virsky Ukrainian Dance Ensemble. I distinctly remember watching it and just some of the thoughts that my two year old brain was having, 'cause I was two when he showed it to me. Again for those who have maybe, like an image from the collective consciousness of Ukrainian dancing, but I highly recommend anyone to look for it on YouTube, especially Virsky, spelled V I R S K Y. The costumes are incredibly colorful and the dancing, the typical theme is usually very joyful.

[00:08:40] And it's very athletic, especially for the men's role. And so it's very impressive. And the women are also in their full costume, they all just seem so beautiful. And so, and just in the professional quality of the Virsky Ensemble, they just present thier folk dance. And, when they perform it--'cause they perform internationally--they're kind of serving as cultural ambassadors. And so in their professional style, they imbue all of that dancing with just the spirit of hospitality, the spirit of just openness, like this kind of agape love type of atmosphere kind of permeates so much of their show. Culturally, it's the connection with other countries, as I said, kind of working as cultural ambassadors and spreading peace and love ultimately.

[00:09:28] And just so their typical show is just so beautiful. Both in like the true ethnographic folk dance as well as just their presentation is just, making it the most beautiful and the most accessible as possible. Between the colorful costumes and just their bright smiles and just these beautiful looking people to me, I distinctly remember that dancers seemed like angels and the stage seemed like heaven.

[00:09:55] And, in my young understanding of life, when I imagined heaven, I imagined that it was like that video that my grandfather showed me with all these people dancing. And, later in life, I read things, and heaven is also sometimes described as a dance. And so I guess that's not completely too much for two year old fantasy, but that was just the image of goodness and this kind of a perfect reality. And so, that's just, that was so special for me. And then as I said, when there was the opportunity to work with that group later in my life-- just once I had access to the opportunity, as you could imagine--it's not just, professionally and it's not just as a job to be with this particular company, but also just in my heart and in my soul, it was something which I just associate with only kind of these good things, blessings from life. And so it's just so meaningful. I feel very passionate about this topic, meaningful encounters with art. And my only regret is that I feel like just to talk about it is -- sometimes I can lose words to describe the whole effect.

[00:11:03] I just encourage anything that I'm saying-- if any of the listeners can go and look and see yourself-- just because, I can describe it, but experiencing it is even better. So that I distinctly remember, with the Virsky Ensemble, just falling in love with these ideas about goodness, but then also just, dance was the medium and then just falling in love with a dance because of that. So that was the first thing that I saw and I watched that VHS tape so many times and whenever it would finish, I would be sad and beg for my parents or my grandparents, whoever was watching with me, to rewind it again, just so I could watch it from the beginning. I watched and I danced with it so many times

[00:11:50] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that.

[00:11:51]Roman Mykyta: And so my dad's side of my family is from Ukraine, but my mom's side is actually Irish. And so, because they saw that I really loved Ukrainian dancing, they got me "Riverdance," and that was also a piece of art that was just so amazing to me as well. It's a completely different look and feel than the Ukrainian dancing, but it also just the theatrical effect of this type of performance is just amazing.

[00:12:18] And whether it's the majesty of all of those dancers lined up and doing the Irish dancing with that powerful rhythm, it's like a completely different look and feel, as I said, from the Ukrainian dance, it creates such this powerful sensation. In "Riverdance," there is the Irish dancers, also the flamenco dancers, and there are even the Russian dancers. And I think just seeing all of these different kinds of folk dancing, which had also like a personal connection with me and my family, but just seeing all of it and seeing all of the different interpretations of these life themes or concepts that you can find in these different dances from a very early age that introduced to me the idea of infinite variations of beauty, infinite variations of goodness. That helped me understand as a child, in a way, that concept of God is everywhere present .

[00:13:04] And, that you can find, if it's something of goodness in every culture, you can find something of God in every culture. And that was really such a powerful concept when I was little-- of course I didn't think of it quite like in the terms as I'm explaining it now-- but to kind of put into words, what I think I was feeling, as a child, and so that was-- I especially really loved both of those videos. and those were my first introductions into dance. And, any, even things like the colors of the costumes, the colors of the lighting, it was just all that's part of why the Sage was heaven to me because it could change and it could become colorful and it would just be so like, magical is probably the best word.

[00:13:47]That was really amazing, but some other things meaningful encounters with art that I experienced in my childhood-- one that really comes to mind-- the second live show that I saw was actually my mom in a production of "Godspell." For those who don't know, "Godspell" is a musical with music by Stephen Schwartz. And it's hard to describe again, but it's basically this impressionistic theater piece, exploring the teachings of Jesus and especially from the gospel of Saint Matthew, while "Jesus Christ Superstar"--for those who are familiar with that is much more of like a dramatic passion play--"Godspell" is much more of taking the essence of the teachings. There is kind of a Jesus figure, but it's not meant to be as literal as "Jesus Christ Superstar," it's much more impressionistic and it's, it has this atmosphere to it because all of the ensemble is purposefully acting kind of clownish, like small children that came from the concept where it's like, you have to humble yourself as a small child to enter the kingdom of heaven.

[00:14:49] And so, it was in this theater piece that creates this atmosphere of taking that with a group of typically adults who are playing in the show kind of to the maximum and when the show is done really well, the power of the gospel and then in that setting can-- it's just especially powerful. Now I remember it most because I remember when they would run through the audience. And I remember seeing my mom and I remember when there was a very dramatic scene and the lighting changed again. That's like an example of how to live, and when like the actors are acting in a way which is fully accessible, fully loving each other, just this beautiful community that is created on stage, it's just kind of like this vision of how I would want my own life to be.

[00:15:34]Again, for those who are not super familiar, I just recommend to maybe give that a try. "Godspell" was kind of a musical theater piece that I loved when I was little also because it came out around the, it came out in 1999, and at that time I was four. At that point, there were a couple of Andrew Lloyd Weber musicals that were being made in a very special, movie version format. And there was Joseph, "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" with Donny Osmond. There was "Cats." Those were the two that again, we rented from the video store so many times and I watched over and over again.

[00:16:10] I absolutely loved "Cats." I loved all the dancing in it and I would dance around to all the numbers. And that's another show that I really like. I think it's a little bit under appreciated. It seems very esoteric. It seems like maybe not a lot of people would get it. I encourage you, if you're not sure about "Cats," think of it like an exploration of how to be more human. It's through the dramatic exercise of acting like a cat or pretending to be a cat. And it's not so much like the actor being a cat, it's more about like a dancer being a cat because it's that whole kind of what our typical uniform is wearing legwarmers and things like that.

[00:16:50] And just kind of moving in a maximumly expressive style, not like super in a classical form, like in ballet, but it's a mix between ballet and jazz. And so if you can kind of discover your humanity in that, I encourage to look at it kind of with those sides and not to worry about it too much, being two hours about the life of a cat or life of cats.

[00:17:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. But the music is incredible, so it does have that going for it, for sure. And yeah, and the movement quality is, is amazing.

[00:17:19] Roman Mykyta: Any Andrew Lloyd Weber music definitely lends itself to a transcendent quality. And so if, if the music is good, it's, it's trying to pull out something interesting in the story, and so I definitely, and how kind of amazing and creative to like, do something a little bit unconventional, but still get something, which is still meaningful. I would consider those four the major things from my childhood, and kind of the things which really kind of inspired my love for all the performing arts, the arts in general, especially dance.

[00:17:53] I feel like it's also really important to talk about my time dancing Some people don't always get classical ballet or on the surface or don't always get it. I definitely encourage a lot of people who are less familiar with ballet, just to know that ballet has a really big history and therefore also has a really big range. And I most people know ballet just like for the Tchaikovsky ballets, which are really beautiful in of themselves like "Swan Lake" or "Nutcracker."

[00:18:24] But if they feel kind of not connected to their time or even connected to their culture, can feel a little bit divorced from their experience. But I would just encourage, there's a huge history of ballet with a lot of different movements in it's evolution of choreographic art, in the same way that the fine arts of painting or music also went through several reinventions or renovation, so to speak.

[00:18:48]For my experience when I was dancing in a ballet company, what was most, and still is really important for me is--as I kind of explained just even from like my very young years, just that effect that performance, could have for me, especially a dance performance or a musical theater performance. It really is convicting to me to create the same experience, the best that I can--just to pray that I can-- for whatever audience, it's coming to see the performance. I love it, especially when we're doing "Nutcracker" and we have an audience of kids, because I just hope that we can, as a cast, make the story, make the show, as big ,theatrical, colorful as when I was really little like watching "Joseph" was for me.

[00:19:34] In order for me to kind of invest in a role, I have always tried to find the deeper meaning of a story and sometimes dance literature doesn't always go quite as deep. But if the ballet has a fairytale connected to it, chances are analysts have kind of unpacked that fairy tale for its meanings and things, which are the big major truths that anyone in different walks of life can take from it. I'm not dancing for myself. I'm not dancing to get the applause of other people. I kind of suffer from some stage fright. And if I was dancing for myself, it really wouldn't be worth it. But the only way that really makes it worth it is if I feel like I'm doing something, which is meaningful--that I'm telling a parable, so to speak, or participating in a parable, which is going to be impacting.

[00:20:26] And the only part that I can do is just dance with that intention. And it's really, this is the interesting thing how art works--because all I can do is put my part out into the world. Not every audience member is going to see the--they'll see the same ballet--but they won't necessarily get the same thing out of it. It kind of comes from where you're coming from or even the personal tastes that you have and how you feel about things. Certainly not everything is for everyone. And, a big thing with enjoying a piece is also just whatever mood you're in before you're going in to see it. And for me, whenever I'm an audience member, I always try to be really open to whatever I'm going to see, try to really understand and try to unpack for myself what potential meanings could be. They can be all kinds of things that can be more literal or they can be very impressionistic. It's just like a mood-- it's kind of, it's hard to quantify all these things because part of the infinite nature of it is that it can be all of these different variations and it's hard to pinpoint them or classify them all.

[00:21:33] I talked about what I do as a dancer, but as an audience member, I love to just watch, try to understand, and I find a lot of joy just from unpacking what I can understand out of it, maybe debriefing about it with whoever I went to go see the show with or something like that. That to me, that's, that's my ideal night out, both participating in or watching and discussing it, both sides, I really like.

[00:21:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you so much for those insights. Yeah. I just want to encourage people to have open conversations about art and to please ask questions. I can't speak for all artists universally, but I can certainly speak for myself and I think for Roman as well, and a lot of artists that we love curiosity. We would love to help answer any questions you have. So if something's unclear or you just are curious as to why we chose a certain element to what we do, I think most of us would love the opportunity to share more about our process, about what inspired us about why we made the choices that we did, because we are trying to be so intentional about the way that we create. And so having those honest conversations is really special.

[00:22:47] Roman Mykyta: And I could say the same thing for myself as well. As I said, nothing energizes me more than either performing, choreographing, or talking about it, or watching-- just to encourage dialogue, between audience member and performer or creator, I think that that is the best way to, to share and to, and just like this podcast, to share our meaningful encounters with art, and this podcast is such a good platform.

[00:23:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you so much for that insight. I just have a couple of questions for you to wrap this up. The first is how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:23:30] Roman Mykyta: Art is ultimately a worldview. I'm sorry, I just want to be thoughtful and not leave anything out, but I think art starts with a worldview and it can be-- it's very intentional and it's very presentational and it's always a form of communication with the creator and the viewer. But where my head is now I kind of feel like art is everywhere around us, even just looking out the window. The art is within the worldview to be able to see anything and to give it meaning, and it can be good or bad meaning, but I personally always like the good meeting, and to just kind of commune with all of these things in our life, which are indicative of something which is truthful and, in my mind, truthful also goes with, goes along with good. I feel like art can be like that. There's that kind of statement--art is in the eye of the beholder. And I feel like that's--that can be true that art can just be a person's worldview and how they give meaning to the world.

[00:24:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. I love it. Okay, my second question is what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:24:41] Roman Mykyta: Hmm. I think the most important role of an artist is to be truthful about reality and how they see it. And along with that, to be honest, that opens up a lot of different doors, whether being truthful and honest is being very joyful and expressing the beauty in life, or it can be expressing the pain that we all feel, and then the way you treat that, whether it's with humor, with seriousness or drama, I feel like there's a place for all of those things. I'm sensitive personally about not overloading audience with what's negative.

[00:25:18]It's really important to be honest, to be raw and to express pain, honestly, but in a way, I feel like we are so inundated by bad news, and just other dramas and political things that I almost feel like if we're so out of balance that way, I would encourage artists to-- it gives the audience a bread and life from the other side. 'Cause in my personal life, I feel like in the people who I know we need more of a goodness color and light than we need more anger, but ultimately it's important to just be honest and truthful.

[00:25:58] Lindsey Dinneen: My final question is, do you think art should be exclusive or inclusive? And I'll define that a little bit more: exclusive, meaning that the artist puts something out into the world and doesn't give a whole lot of context for it, whether that's not, you know, providing program notes or description or something like that. So you don't necessarily know the inspiration or the reasoning behind it. Versus inclusive, meaning that the artist gives you that context, tells you why they chose the colors that they did, or, or the particular movement pattern that they did or whatever. So kind of inviting you into that process. So you understand a little bit more of the artist's intention.

[00:26:42] Roman Mykyta: I definitely feel like I understand. For me, when I am presenting either in the performance or creator mode, I value being inclusive. I really, as I said, I personally just really like to dialogue. And so, whether it is a program notes or, giving an intro or just dialoguing with anyone who I'm currently working with, or anyone who has seen what I've done.

[00:27:09] And, you know, I'm always happy to talk about it because to me, the joy is in the dialogue. And I understand on the exclusive side, some people like to have the openness to variety of meanings and not to peg something down, so that people, audience members, can be free with their imagination. But I personally feel that even inclusive mold, you know, audience members can listen, but they can also still freely form their own opinion.

[00:27:38] I guess it depends on the personalities of individual people. Maybe some people, if they are given more insight, they're going to just stick with that and maybe not think about other things, and so preserving the exclusive mold just helps to keep that open, but I personally really like the inclusive mold. And even, in my experience, as an audience member with either the inclusive or the exclusive mold, I mean, I'm really hungry for the creator or the performer to give me their inclusive worldview. Even if I get that, I still freely form my own thoughts about something. There could be a movie musical piece of music that the creator/performers shared their worldview and it might not be something that I completely understand or, even agree with. I personally think there's nothing lost with the inclusive mold and it's ultimately just great to have the dialogue.

[00:28:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. That is really great insight. And I really appreciate your perspective about how dialogues about art can create so much more meaning to your encounters. And I think that that is so important. What stood out to me about what you said was you're talking about how having the inclusive mold does not mean that you can't take from it what you will anyway. Even if you have the context of what the artist originally intended doesn't mean that you can't also draw your own conclusions.

[00:29:13] And I think that's a really nice balance and I haven't heard it said like that before, so thank you for that. And I just want to say, in general, Roman, thank you so much for being on this podcast and thank you so much for your heart for art and your heart for the world. You help make the world a better place because you're willing to share your art as a dancer, choreographer, journalist. And I truly believe that in what you're doing, you're making the world a more beautiful, inclusive place. And I just want to say thank you for that, because I know I appreciate it personally, but I, I know that what you do does impact the world. So thank you for that.

[00:29:53]Roman Mykyta: Oh, my goodness. Thank you, Lindsey, so much. That was such beautiful words. I'm just so honored and so thankful that I was invited to be a part of this podcast and I just think, we were talking about how meaningful dialogues are--this podcast, I think is so crucial in promoting that. And I cannot wait to hear all the more episodes from all the future guests that you will have. And just to be able to have that listening dialogue with all the other artists who you will have.

[00:30:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you again so much, Roman, for joining me today. And thank you so much to all of our listeners who have tuned in. I hope you feel inspired and rejuvenated and ready to witness some art and have great conversations about it because that's what it's all about. If this episode particularly inspired you today, would you just share it with a friend or two who might also be inspired? And until then we will catch you next time.

[00:30:57] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:07] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you about Bluprint, which is the most amazing website for artists and makers of all levels. Bluprint lets you dig into anything you've ever daydreamed about doing like dance, fitness, yoga, art, and home decorating, plus all the arts and crafts categories you know and love. More than 13 million enthusiasts, from artists to quilters and beyond, make Bluprint their home for binge-worthy, on-demand content, access to the world's top experts and curated supplies, all served up in a fun, loving creative community. Super cool. And even better, currently they're offering 50% off their classes. So if you are interested in taking advantage of that, learning a new skill, having an amazing time, working with experts in their fields--you will love to take advantage of this offer. And you'll just click on the link in my comments and my show notes, and you'll be rocking and rolling.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Danielle Guy! Danielle is a well-rounded artist who is currently pursuing her passion of directing plays and musicals. She shares about one of the most difficult directing experiences she's had by tackling a very controversial musical.

Get in touch with Danielle Guy: https://danielledirects.com/

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 005 - Danielle Guy

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out in to the world.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as, as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, hello, welcome back to Artfully Told. Thank you so much for joining me again. I'm Lindsey, and I am so excited to have the wonderful Danielle Guy on our podcast today. She is a wonderful human being, but also an artist and just has so many amazing. stories to tell about life, about art, and I'm just so excited to have her. So thank you so much, Danielle, for joining us. We're so happy!

[00:01:04] Danielle Guy: Yes, and thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay. Well, can you share a little bit about who you are and your involvement in art and all that fun stuff?

[00:01:14]Danielle Guy: Yeah, so I have kind of dipped my toes into a lot of different art styles, with dance and music; I was for the longest time a pianist and opera singer, and then I went into theater, which is kind of where I found my, my niche. And I started out acting specifically in classical works, with Shakespeare. But as time has developed, I have really found my position as a director. And it's, it's fun to see how things have changed and morphed over the years from, you know, thinking I was one thing and then leading into this place that I never thought I'd be. I had a theater company for a while as well, and now I'm just doing freelance, freelance directing work.

[00:02:08]Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And, I just have to caveat. So Danielle is my adopted cousin, just to give some context, and I can attest to the fact that she was probably always born for theater, because--do you want to just share a little bit about your birthday parties?

[00:02:31] Danielle Guy: Oh, my God. Okay. So I was such a weird kid. So when I think it was the first time we did this, I might have been eight. I had these books that was like Shakespeare for kids. And I got inspired by them and I told my mom that for my birthday, I wanted to have a Shakespeare party and we're going to-- the first one was "12th Night." I was like, we're going to put on a play of "12th Night." And so I made all my friends come over and I told them what roles that they would be, and we would create, like, it was probably like 10 to 15 minutes versions of Shakespeare's plays. And we did that for four years.

[00:03:23] Lindsey Dinneen: It was so fun.

[00:03:24] Danielle Guy: Oh my gosh, thank you! And then remember we used to do the American Girl doll plays all the time.

[00:03:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my gosh, I forgot about that, but you're right, we did. That was so fun.

[00:03:35] Danielle Guy: And I was Marta in the Kirsten story, and my death scene was impeccable.

[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm sure it was. So all that to say, it really--those of us who've known her, it comes as no surprise that eventually she would become a director and have had her own company and all of that jazz. But no, we had hours and hours of so much fun putting together these plays. And I think if I remember correctly for "Romeo and Juliet," I'm pretty sure we had to have like a progressive theater experience for the audience because we did the balcony scene, like, on the landing of the stairs or something?

[00:04:17] Danielle Guy: Yes. Yeah, it was a, it was definitely situational art . It was very ahead of its time.

[00:04:23]Lindsey Dinneen: I hope there's video footage. I don't think I ever want to see it, but just to know it exists.

[00:04:28] Danielle Guy: My mom has all of them. I never want to see it ever, but I know it exists.

[00:04:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, those were some great memories right there, but I know you have probably a bazillion stories to tell, but, yeah, we'd love to share with you, and if there's anything in particular that stands out.

[00:04:47] Danielle Guy: Yeah. So a lot of things that people don't understand when they think of, like, theater--and I will even say some theaters take themselves a little too seriously. And when you go in there, like this is the vision, this is how it's going to go. And this is how it will always go and there will be no change, but I feel like a lot of people don't realize the flexibility and also the, the acceptance that you have to have going in as a director, because you see it in like, movies and TV shows all the time of the trope of the director who's a tyrant and everything must go their way, but honestly, we have to answer to a lot of people. And we also have to take into account just what materially you have to work with--there are actors and their limitations. And, you will go into something thinking that it's going to look one way, but the end product is completely different.

[00:05:49] And I think the one that, that really showed up as was the past production that I did, which was "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson." And I did that at Dominion Stage in Arlington. It's the first one that I did since I moved to the DC area. And just to give you an idea, I was not supposed to direct that musical. At all. I went in first with a proposal for a play called "City of Conversation."

[00:06:19] It's a straight play. It's very much up my alley. Typically I do small cast family-led dramas, not musicals. I've done a few here and there, but that was very much my niche, and they really liked that. But then they were trying to flush out their season and they're like, "Well, we really don't have a main stage musical. Do you have a proposal for a main stage musical?" And I had one for "Next to Normal," which is one of my favorite musicals in the entire world. And so they decided after I gave a presentation to go with that and I was like, "Cool." So I am planning this, this four to five person musical that is all about mental health. It's female-driven, all the things that really get me going. And then the Kennedy Center announced that they were going to do "Next to Normal." So our rights got pulled.

[00:07:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh...

[00:07:21] Danielle Guy: I know! And I remember, I will never forget, I was on Instagram and I was just scrolling and I saw the Kennedy Center come up and I was like, "Oh cool. They're announcing what they're doing." I was like, "Awesome. Would love to go see that and that, and oh... oh no. Oh, no." I texted my producer, my executive producer on the board. I was like, "Hey, I don't think we're going to do "Next to Normal." Am I correct in this?" They're like, "Yeah, we're totally not." So our rights got pulled and I didn't know what to do.

[00:08:05] And I sat down with my best friend and my fiance, Matt, Matt Calvert . And we were going through the alphabet and we were coming up with musical proposals that I could write for, and A, B, C, and then we, we narrowed it down and there's this musical called "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson." And I immediately said no, because "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson" is kind of like the cursed production of theater, because it's very controversial. It's-- if anyone has seen "The Book of Mormon," it's satire like that, but not as well written. And also the satire doesn't always come across as satire. Some people take it a little too seriously, and I understand why, because of the writing.

[00:09:01]It's a satirical work of the presidency of Andrew Jackson and specifically his removal of the Native Americans from the East and moving them out West. And it's done in a punk rock setting. It's very heavy distortions. It's extremely into, in your face. This production has been protested by a lot of people because specifically there's one, one number and it called "10 Little Indians." And in the original production, they had a whole bunch of white people dressed up in feathers and garb , and when it came out originally, it was kind of right before all of that really came into view. But especially now it's like, no, we were not going to do that.

[00:09:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:09:55]Danielle Guy: But I created a proposal for it and like five other shows and I did a big old dump for the board and they're like, "That's the one we're going to do." "Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson" And I remember asking them, I was like, "Are you sure?" And honestly, I think that was a very smart move, especially for what's happening right now. Some people don't know this, President Trump has a portrait of Andrew Jackson in the Oval Office. And Andrew Jackson is one of the most controversial and most xenophobic presidents that we've ever had.

[00:10:28]So that's fun. And specifically for Dominion , their theater company, they are not afraid of making those comments or being controversial. So, wow. I was able to do this, but when I went in, I had this this idea where it's like, of course, we're not going to--we're not going to portray the Native Americans with a whole bunch of white people. We're not going to put head dresses on them. We're going to have none of that. Of course, I was like, we're very much going to keep it as respectful as possible. But fortunately with the cast that I had and how brave they were, what it ended up being was just this powerhouse of social justice.

[00:11:13]Lindsey Dinneen: Hm.

[00:11:14]Danielle Guy: I was very surprised with how young the cast was. Our youngest person was 21, and the dedication that they had to the entire text and they definitely were fearless. I'm sure that a whole bunch of actors, and rightfully so, after the first read through, " Be like, I'm not sure if I can do this". I will never forget the first read through where afterward everyone was dead silent. Like, there is a lot of messed up stuff in that, it's pretty messed up and we're going to lean into it because we kind of have to because of what's happening right now. And I know that a lot of people think, "Oh, art, it's for entertainment. It's, it's fine." It's like, yeah, but also art has to be truthful. And I felt like this was the production that could be very truthful. And by the end, we were going in and we were just like, "We hope people leave. We hope that they're offended that we're making comments," and be like, "This is not okay." And no one did actually, we never had anyone leave, which was surprising to me, considering like the F bomb was dropped every two seconds. But yeah, it's--and there were a lot of times as a director that I feel like I could have held on to my original idea for it, but it wouldn't be as good. It really is letting go and letting your actors and also your team come up with ideas. Like my, my set designer had such a cool idea of making the space into a very, very close setting where the actors were maybe maybe three feet away from the first row.

[00:13:06]My set designer, Amber, she made it super colorful. Like the stage was covered in carpets and there were all different colors and she had tapestries that were different designs, all the walls. And it was just very--when you walked in--it felt like your living room, it was very home-y. It was definitely not what I had in mind. And what I had in mind was like rock concert. I don't mind if there's a pit or, you know, if we raise the stage a little bit, and she was like, "No, no, no, we're gonna make this feel kind of like what we did where it's like in your living room." And so that way you were unable to separate yourself from the action and be like, "Well, this is just a story." It's like, "No, you in it, people are able to look at you. They see if you're pulling out your phone."

[00:13:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh. Yeah.

[00:13:59]Danielle Guy: So yeah, that was very interesting. And that was something I could have been like, "No, I want it to be like that." So glad I did it because it changed everything. And, yeah, it's just one of those things where you need to, to trust other people and their designs and their ideas and just be like, "Cool. If you believe in it, I believe in it."

[00:14:18]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's powerful. So how, how did audiences react? I mean, obviously it was a difficult thing that you were bringing forth and I love what you said about art needs to be truthful. I absolutely agree with you. but so yeah, I mean, what was, what was the audience reaction and how did you feel at the end? How did your cast feel at the end? I mean, that, that is a huge undertaking.

[00:14:39]Danielle Guy: Yeah, it was mixed responses. So we actually did have a small protest, not at the production, but before on social media, where an individual who did not want to enter a conversation with us, a dialogue of us being like, "Well, this is how we're changing it. This is what we're doing to make sure that we're showing that, 'Hey, this is not funny about the Native Americans. The Native Americans aren't a joke. Who is the joke is Andrew Jackson in this.'" We would have loved to have that conversation, but they just weren't interested in hearing it, so we had a little bit of a protest, but also we anticipated that. And we also had, I had reached out to a colleague of mine from college who is a Cherokee. He lives in Colorado. And we had talked about it long before we were even in rehearsals and coming up with ideas of how to do this musical, but keep it respectful as well and really to get the correct message across.

[00:15:44]And also we had someone who formerly worked at The Smithsonian of Native Americans come and watch it in rehearsal, just so I can be like, "Hey, if you see anything, because we are doing our best, but I'm sure we've missed something, like, please let us know." I wrote an open letter to audience members about like, "Hey, is this a problematic play?Absolutely. It is. However, this is how we are addressing it and moving forward." So we had put that on social media. It was surprisingly published--we didn't know they were doing this--in the DC Metro Theater Report, which is on Facebook and in print. So that was really cool. We knew that audience members were kind of prepared, even if they didn't know the musical.

[00:16:31] It's like, okay, you're walking into something that you're going to be offended by probably. And so some audience members really got the message and were really into it. And then, and we're like, yes, we see how you were able to show the narrative as truth of, of history and how awful Andrew Jackson is and how that mindset of basically, you know, white supremacy has padded come up again in the name of, nationalism and patriotism.

[00:17:04]And then there were some audience members and I was, I always love talking to them where they're like, "Yes, we understand what you're doing, but we still don't think this musical should ever be done because it's just too offensive." And I, there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to art. I don't think that it's ever black and white, your opinion and how you perceive art, is just how you perceive art.

[00:17:31] And it's not a right or wrong thing. It's just your reaction. I say the same thing in my day job. I am a sommelier. When you taste wine, when you try wine, you like it, or you don't. I'm the one who is trained to find the notes and everything, but you know, what, if you're not a professional, your main thing is like, "Do I like it?" And that's how you can go with art too. Do I like this? Yes? No? Cool. It doesn't have to be any deeper than that. If you want to go deeper--absolutely, I love having those conversations--but if someone comes in and absolutely hated it, you hated it. That's cool. It's not your thing.

[00:18:12] Yeah, and actually to that point, I'm curious, I imagine you had some people that came in that did hate it because they were uncomfortable and they were, they were frustrated because this stuff is difficult to, to take in. And so did you have anybody who wanted to have a conversation about like, I hated this...

[00:18:32] It was super cool. I loved that when someone was like, "I hated it." And I was like, "Cool, I'm not offended. I don't care, but can you tell me why." It's the why that interests me. And we had some really good conversations that came out of it. And one woman who was a little older, I sat down with her. She was related to someone in the cast. A nd she's like, "I just really didn't like it." I was like, "Well, could you explain to me why?" And her whole thing was because there were things that were not factual in the musical--and we can debate artistic license-- but I understand what you're saying. Where she's like, "Especially when you have someone who is as terrible as Andrew Jackson, you don't have to make stuff up to make him more terrible or more likable or what have you. It's like, she definitely wanted it to stick to actual history, and I totally get that. That's totally fine. But it's definitely something I had no power over. I couldn't change the script.

[00:19:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's one of the most powerful things that art can do is start conversations that you might not otherwise have unless you're confronted with something that you A) don't understand, B) don't appreciate, C), don't like. I mean, I think there's a lot of value in the conversations that art can bring because, you're right! I mean, there's--like you said earlier on some level, it's like, do you like it or don't you? But at the same time, I love that you can take that and then ask, well, why? And then you have an intelligent conversation about, you know, what you took from that. I love that.

[00:20:13] Danielle Guy: Yeah, exactly. And also, and this is something that I talked to my, my cast a lot about--where it's like, people are going to dislike this show. Don't be offended, because that is their right. And that also sparked a conversation in the cast where, you know, we're in a time right now where everyone's offended by something, and then you're offended if someone's offended--it's just all a terrible circle. And I was like, "Guys, this is, we're talking about Andrew Jackson, we're talking about America. And one of the most American things we have is the, the right to express your opinion, that you have a voice-- freedom of speech. So it's like, let them have that freedom of speech because we're definitely exercising it with this. And if you want to be an example for other people, when someone looks at you and says, "I hated your show," just ask why and then say, "Thank you ," and move on.

[00:21:10]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I love that. And actually I think that gives a lot of freedom because, you're absolutely right. I mean, if you're trying to appeal and this goes for even a quote, end quote "non-controversial" show, right? I mean, in the sense that you're going to have people that walk away and they're like, "That was stupid," or "That was bad," you know what I mean? Like, you're just going to have somebody who doesn't like it and, and having the freedom to say, "It's okay." You're going to have our fans who are grateful and like it, and then you're going to have your critics who are like, "Well, I didn't," and having that freedom as an artist to say, "Well, that's not a reflection on me. Honestly, it's the reflection on them in the sense of, back to your fundamental point, they liked it or they didn't, but it's not you. And I think that actually gives a lot of freedom. I love that perspective.

[00:21:54] Danielle Guy: Thank you. I mean, also as artists, it can be difficult because your art is an extension of yourself, so it's hard to differentiate between that. But I think that a way for artists to also protect themselves, is by having that separation. Because, man, it's hard, especially with actors where, when I do workshops for auditions, I'm like, "You're going to get rejected. And you are going to get rejected again and again and again. And it's hard for you to not take that personally, because it is like you offering yourself. But if you want to say sane, you have to be able to look over it, not get over it, but look over it." Or it's like, well, it wasn't this time, but maybe the next. And yeah, just continue going. It's hard. It's a hard world.

[00:22:52]Lindsey Dinneen: I've said in the past--to be an artist is to be brave. And I think, just inherently, when you put yourself out there as an artist or you create something--even if you don't identify as, "Oh, I'm an artist", but you created something--I mean, it's brave. It takes guts to put something out into the world and say, "Here you go." And we'll see.

[00:23:13]Danielle Guy: I will say like, one of the most terrifying moments of my life was when my mother went and saw the show.

[00:23:18]Lindsey Dinneen: I can imagine.

[00:23:19] Danielle Guy: She actually said it in a very good way where she is like, "I didn't like it, but I saw that it was well done," which is also a thing that I think people need to learn where it's just like, you can not like something, but it doesn't mean that it's trash. Honestly I love getting bad reviews. I just love hearing the other side of things, which maybe is like the most theatrical thing that you can do is because you always have to look at the other side of the coin with the character. But yeah, love, love it. I'm weird.

[00:23:53]Lindsey Dinneen: No, I mean, I'm going to say that is awesome because I think firstly, it's very tough to read reviews where you're like, "What are you talking about?" So kudos to you.

[00:24:02] Danielle Guy: You have to think about what you're going to expel your, your time and energy on. And move on with my life because my life is full of amazing people and I'm doing amazing things and that's all I really want to do with my life. So I'm not going to let a little blip, send me into a spiral.

[00:24:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Good for you. Oh my goodness. To all the artists out there who are afraid of a bad review, just remember Danielle's advice. You can, you can look at it and say, "You know what? I will accept a different opinion." And then you just move on because you got more amazing things to do.

[00:24:37] Danielle Guy: Exactly.

[00:24:38] Lindsey Dinneen: I just have a couple of questions for you if that's okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:24:46] Danielle Guy: Art is expression of truth done a visual way. So where it is taking some form of reality and putting it in a way that can be physicalized, whether it be by, you know, painting or drawing or by moving, or by speaking--just a different way to look at it--that is different from what our normal reality is, which can be quite boring.

[00:25:13] Lindsey Dinneen: And what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:25:17]Danielle Guy: Once again, going into the true thing, just tell the truth. I hear this all the time with actors where they're, where they say, "Oh, acting is my escape." And that's, those typically are the actors that are kind of hard to work with because it's not an escape. A lot of these characters are created out of some sense of reality. And I feel like we do them a dishonor by taking someone's potential life or potential situation and putting it on as a mask to escape the reality in our own. So it's just, you know, doing honor to the text doing honor to what has come before us.

[00:25:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. That's that's a great. Okay. And my last one--I'll kind of explain a little bit, but it's just totally in your personal opinion-- do you feel that art should be inclusive or exclusive? So exclusive kind of being, so an artist puts something out there and there's not necessarily a lot of explanation behind it--what inspired it? Maybe there's not a title to it. Maybe, you know, you just don't have a lot of context, versus inclusive being, you know, the artist describes the inspiration behind it or what they were feeling when they created it or just to provide a little bit more context of what you as the viewer or the observer might gain, I guess, or experience.

[00:26:49] Danielle Guy: Oh man. My avant garde is showing so hard. I would say exclusive. I'm just one of those people where it's like, just let the art talk. It takes away the magic when you have to go in and explain everything. It's like when you have to explain a joke, that is, like, not funny anymore. There's this, video on YouTube that came out several years ago--it was all performance art-- where a woman was sitting at a table and you would go up and sit on the other side of the table and she would just look at you for an entire minute. No words at all. She would look; you give you direct eye contact for an entire minute. There was no explanation why. And, she didn't even advertise this as much where it, she had like a handler who's like, "We're doing this thing, please form a line if you'd like to be involved." And apparently the feedback from people--after their minute was done, it had moved them so much, and it meant different things to everyone. And I feel like to explain that moment would have--or her reason behind it-- what have you, what her goal was? I feel like it would have tarnished that very visceral and primal response that people had. So yeah, let it be exclusive. Don't let people always know because sometimes artists don't even have an answer. "I don't know why I did this. It just looked cool." I think, yeah, my avant-garde came out real hard there.

[00:28:29] Lindsey Dinneen: It did. But I love asking people that question because we get very different responses, and like art, it's subjective. And so I love it and I love the reasoning behind it . So, do you have, I know this is kind of an odd time, but do you have any upcoming projects or anything that you're working towards?

[00:28:46] Danielle Guy: Yeah, so, my main production that's coming up, is my wedding in October. So I'm taking a little bit of a break, and then this time next year, I will be directing "Five Women Wearing the Same Dress," which is a wonderful play. I love it so much. And it's female centered and about life and how we, we think we know our dearest friends, but then, you know, maybe you're a bridesmaid in their wedding and you learned that, you know, nothing about them at all. So yeah, that's my next project that I have on the books.

[00:29:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And if anyone wants to get in touch with you or follow your artistic journey, do you have any kind of outlet for that? Or even if they wanted to come see that, is there, you know, a way that they can kind of keep in touch?

[00:29:37] Danielle Guy: Yeah. So usually I do announce things on my website, which is danielledirects.com. And that's also a link where if you want to get in touch with me, or ask any questions, there will be, like a little conversation box that will send an email to me.

[00:29:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. How fancy.

[00:29:58] Danielle Guy: I know.

[00:29:59]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you so very much for just being a present here and thank you for being a guest; I really appreciate it. And I'm a firm believer that when you put art out into the world, it makes it a better place. And so I just want to thank you personally for, you know, continuing your passion ever since you were eight. But thank you for continuing to produce art and be brave as an artist. And, I just, I know the world is a better place because of it.

[00:30:30] Danielle Guy: Thank you, and thank you so much for asking me to be a part of this. This was so great. Thank you for all that you're doing, especially during crazy times like this and all your passion and art. I have to brag about you. I've been a fan of you since I was five, so...

[00:30:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Awww! Aww, you're sweet. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you again and thank you to everyone who has listened to this, and I hope you feel as inspired as I do. And I just wanted to say that we really appreciate your shares and comments. And we will catch you next time.

[00:31:10] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:31:20] Hey there, Artfully Told listeners. I wanted to share a really amazing resource with you that I think you will find invaluable. This website is called Artists' Edge. The mission of Artists' Edge is to raise the level of business intelligence, life skills, and emotional intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, creativity, and unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Artists' Edge is the education arm of Deborah Russell Coaching, and she is an awesome person who uses all of her business, background and skills to really assist artists become who they want to be. She has a bunch of different courses that you can go through as well as personalized coaching. If you are a wannabe artist that wants to turn their passion into a career, or is an already established artists that wants to take their career to the next level, she is the person to talk to you about this. So please follow the link in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Rick Wright! Rick is an arts educator, and a fine artist based out of Kansas City, whose work has been exhibited all across the midwest and beyond. He shares about the journey that led him to become a professional artist.

Get in touch with Rick Wright: http://www.rickwrightart.com/ | www.facebook.com/rickwrightart | www.instagram.com/rickwrightart

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 004 - Rick Wright

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part out into the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so, so beautiful.

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello! Welcome back to Artfully Told. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Lindsey and I am absolutely delighted to have Rick Wright join us today.

[00:00:45] He is a fine artist. His work is really, really exceptional and he is awesome. I'm just so excited to hear from him today. And so thank you so much, Rick, for, for being a part of this. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:59] Rick Wright: Oh, awesome. Thanks for inviting me. I really wish I could record what you just said there. And I, I should have it on my voicemail or something so that I can play it back to people.

[00:01:08] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go.

[00:01:10] Rick Wright: No--it's, it's it's great to hear your voice. And, I know we've spoken before and, and I've had a chance to, observe, you and, and your dance troupe and get inspired for my own work. So thanks for having me here.

[00:01:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, it's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. And so I would love if you would just be willing to share a little bit about yourself with our listeners and kind of maybe what art you mostly gravitate to or whatever you want.

[00:01:40] Rick Wright: Sure. I guess-- I'll guess we'll back up and talk about how I kind of approached my art career. I was, I was probably that kid in your elementary school or junior high, that was always doodling little characatures of people. I was a little bit of a class clown, but I was also a pretty small kid. So, I always tended to interject myself into things with a little bit of humor. So I was always drawing characatures of friends and whatnot, and my journals and on the margins of my papers and everything. So, you know, I kind of progressed through high school knowing that, gosh, I really enjoy, these art classes. I, I'd like to have a career doing something that I enjoy. I kind of grew up with, with a father that was a real blue collar working class guy, not well-educated, but--but creative in his, in his own way. He was really into building cars and motorcycles and doing custom fabrication of sorts outside of his day job. So I would, I would see him working, you know, eight, 10, 12 hour days, and then he'd come home and work in his garage and, and build stuff. So, even though my passion for artwork was a little different media than his; I think I got a lot of creativity from him.

[00:02:59]When it was time to choose a path for my postsecondary education, I decided I, I'd go into an illustration program at the University of Kansas, partly because, you know, I knew that I loved art and I wanted to have a job that involved art. And to me, the--probably the only thing I, I was familiar with was, okay--I could be a commercial artist, and so I sort of blindly went into that track. But I, I enjoyed my coursework and I learned a lot, but I, I did realize once I finished my undergrad, like, gosh, okay. Now where do I go get a job?

[00:03:40] And, and to my surprise, it was like, well, there are not a lot of, full time, sort of, nine-to-five jobs in illustration, which is what I wanted to do. I didn't, I didn't really go in the path of graphic design. Although a lot of my classmates would kind of dual major, graphics is not something that really interested me. So I, I stuck with the illustration path and, and then, as I graduated, I'm like, gosh, you know, those full time illustration jobs don't really exist, aside from maybe the few that were lucky to work at like a Hallmark Cards or something like that.

[00:04:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:04:14] Rick Wright: So, and, and I kind of bounced around a little bit, just trying to figure out, you know, what, what my path was going to look like. And quite honestly, I was probably the personality that I, I liked the structure of having a full time position. I didn't know the first thing about how do I make ends meet as a freelance artist? You know, you do a, a magazine editorial here and then, maybe a CD or album cover for someone else or t-shirt designs or, or cards.

[00:04:44] And, those were all jobs, all different jobs, but you had to string a whole bunch of them together just to make ends meet. So, yeah, I didn't really know the first thing about how to make that career happen. And I kind of stumbled around for awhile before I ultimately, kind of, took a job. Oh, I was, you know, mid twenties at the time, working at an alternative high school as a paraprofessional of all things, totally unrelated to my, my own interest in art, but I always had a desire to, kind of, work with young people. But, this was more, just a job so I could pay some bills and figure out what I'm going to do next. But I, I really started to enjoy that direction and it got me working with young people-- sort of inspired me to go back to school and pursue an art education path as well. So I did that as a graduate student, became certified to teach and began a teaching career for a number of years. You know, that was something that, it did allow me a little bit of, arts and working with youth at the same time.

[00:05:51] But the creative side of things I was missing out personally. And I think I would spend a lot of time developing lesson plans and focusing on my students, but I was less focused on myself. So that was for about seven years before I realized, gosh, you know what, I'm doing all of this and it's great, don't get me wrong. But I wasn't pursuing my own passions and decided I wanted to step away from teaching full time to kind of pursue my own professional art interests. And, and that's what I did.

[00:06:23] Move up to present day. Once I stepped aside from teaching allowed me to focus more on my, my personal work, which allowed me to sort of pick up where I left off during my undergrad years. You know, I spent a lot of time in drawing and painting courses, and I, and I think one of the things that I really loved about that were the figure drawing or figure painting classes that I had and gesture drawing and, working from life was, was really inspiring to me. So I sort of picked that up again and, you know, I think initially I, I would work a lot off the figure doing quick gestural paintings.

[00:07:04] And a lot of them were sort of classically nude poses or not, not very dynamic in nature. They are more like figures studies. I didn't necessarily know where I was going with that. I just knew that I, I like, I like this. I want to keep doing it and what I didn't know is, okay, how does this then evolve into generating a career in the arts. I'm just doing what I like to do.

[00:07:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:07:32]Rick Wright: I guess in my mindset, previously I was thinking, gosh, you know, you gotta get a job and do what someone else tells you to do in order to make a living. And then here I am just painting because I like it. And not understanding that, you know what--that's, that's okay. That, that is a path in its own. And, and, the more that I, the more that I did it, I started a form of direction for my work and a body of work that was, was cohesive. So, you know, like I said, it, they started off as more just gestural, quick paintings-- of, you know, more formally posed figures. And I finally got to a point where I felt like, gosh, I had, I have enough work here.

[00:08:17] What can I do to get it shown in the community? And I, I was lucky enough to develop a relationship with a small nonprofit gallery in Kansas City at the time. And proceeds from that gallery went to support a cause that I was passionate about too. So I, I showed a number of paintings in that space and had some success moving some pieces, allow me to do more work. So I think my work started to evolve and, and then I began taking it on the road to some juried art festivals, which, was a real roller coaster ride for, for awhile. I didn't know what to expect. I, you know, I think anybody that jumps into that is kind of in the same boat, you know, you don't know what you, you don't know what you don't know.

[00:09:06] So it took me awhile to learn that. I think my first first show I entered, I had like 12 paintings and they were reasonably large. They're like 30 by 40 inch pieces. And a lot of them were, typical nudes that I had been doing over the last several years, and the first, my first show was in Texas, which is a pretty conservative area. And I'm showing up at this art show with all these nude paintings. I had, I had people that loved them.

[00:09:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh course.

[00:09:37] Rick Wright: And thank goodness, and then I had a number of people walking by, and it was not necessarily the most receptive audience. So I know I had, I had some shows where I, I sold several pieces and did very well. Then I had some that I just couldn't seem to sell anything. It opened my eyes to maybe the business of the art world. As well, I had started to move in a direction where I, I liked where the work was going. And then I felt I was starting to feel comfortable putting it out there.

[00:10:12] Maybe after that first show or two, I wasn't super excited, but I felt like the work could speak for itself. And if someone liked it, great. If they didn't, that's their prerogative too. I mean, at least it generates a response, but you know, I started to learn a lot about the business of being an artist and what you gotta do to make ends meet without, without watering down your work, I guess, or without catering your work just to the audience.

[00:10:43] And, you know, I think that made me think about some things like the scale of my work. Like I said, the first few shows I did the pieces were all fairly large, 30 by 40 inches. And I think they were well priced, but I think they were priced well out of someone's reach that might have an interest in my work, but was just not in a position where they could spend a lot of money on a large piece, and they would like something smaller. So I, I felt like I learned that I needed to diversify my offerings out there. You know, maybe I can do some smaller works or, maybe I'll make prints of some pieces.

[00:11:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. So, I'm just curious, you, you mentioned talking about the price point, which I think is a big thing, because like you said, everyone has kind of different budgets and, and I love the way that you adapted to that. You know, you didn't just say, "Well, it's not for everyone," but you thought about ways that, you know, you could make it a little bit more accessible to someone who, who just doesn't have the same budget. So I love that, but I'm curious: how, how do you price your art? Because I know that's a thing that a lot of artists struggle with, is putting a value to, you know, essentially your lifetime of experience, which is, which has led you to this, and then of course, the hours and hours you put into creating it, like, how do you go about that?

[00:12:11] Rick Wright: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I wish there was an idiot's guide to it. I think it's probably something that every visual artist I've run into has had the same problem with. And, oh gosh. I think I prob--I probably undervalued myself for a number of years. You could ask my wife now, and she could still say you still do that because, you know, I grew up within a certain economic class with, you know, a blue collar family and not a lot of means. So just because I can create something, I just, I have a hard time thinking that I should put this big, old price tag on it.

[00:12:52] So, the first time that I had a show that I had to price my work, I just kind of like, I thought, gosh, you know, how many, how many hours do I think it took me to do this? And what, what is my time worth? I probably didn't think too much about the materials I had in it. And I certainly didn't think about, gosh, you know, I've gone to school for four, six, eight years, training myself how to do this. I didn't, I didn't value that in my initial price points, but as I've, as I've moved on over the years, you know, you're absolutely right--like full disclosure--I'm 46 right now, and seriously, working in the arts for, you know, over 20 years. So, you know, that that experience should have some value and it should impact the price of your work.

[00:13:44]So certainly the work that I was doing at age 22 is much different then than it is now. You know, I, I feel like I can command a little bit of a premium for my experience, but I was, I was talking with one of my former illustration professors a few weeks ago and I, I was saying, gosh, you know, there have been periods in my career where, I've just not done any fresh paintings for months at a time. And even there was a stent for maybe a couple years--I just, I just wasn't really, inspired to do some new, fresh work, but I still feel like when I did pick the brush back up, I had grown as an artist, partly because of my life experience and my perspective that I could, I could reflect back on my own work and realize, gosh, this is what I was doing then, and I've grown as a person. And even though I may not have physically been using a brush more to grow, I could translate my personal growth onto a canvas after that amount of time. So I felt like my new, my newer work, you know, after that hiatus was better, even though I hadn't necessarily been practicing it so much.

[00:15:00]Lindsey Dinneen: So I know for you, in particular, one of the things that I personally admire so much about your art-- I love the fact that you highlight other artists in your work in other art forms--I've seen dancers and aerialists...

[00:15:14] Rick Wright: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, my, my work has really been focused on the figure and, you know, I, as I spoke before, you know, those figures are very static initially, but I I've, I've really become inspired by a lot of performers that have a lot of physicality involved in the work that they do. And, you know, those may, may be, dancers, whether it's jazz or pop or ballet or salsa. I don't especially have a great knowledge of dance, but I do have of the human form and I, and I see what those performers are doing with their bodies and being impressed by the physicality of, of what they're pulling off in such a graceful way that, you know. That's, that's inspired me to create a sense of movement and strength and grace and beauty, and my forms, I think a little bit of my work is art imitating art, and I classify my models or performers as artists themselves. And I just, I want to capture what they do in my own way, right, in my media, I try, I'm trying to get my work to be more collaborative with other artists that are doing things that I don't do. So I think there's, there's a kind of a strength in numbers, you know, all, all of us creatives have to stick together in some ways. So, I'm inspired by those performing artists that are doing something that I, I can't do.

[00:16:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Well, and you know, ditto, you know, it was the same for us. So looking at your work going, "Oh my gosh, it's amazing. And I can't do it, but I love to look," you know, I love appreciating it.

[00:17:04] Rick Wright: Yeah. Well, and it's, it's allowed me to have conversations too, that I'm fairly ignorant of some of the minutia that's involved in years of training one's body to perform like that. So, you know, I can have conversations with people about, gosh, you know, what, what is it you're doing here?And, and dancers make shapes with their bodies. And, you know, so I, I'm curious about the shapes that they're making and how does that impact the shapes and the forms that I'm trying to develop on a canvas as well?

[00:17:42] There's a balloon artist here in Kansas City who is pretty amazing visually. And I've had the opportunity to photograph her at some various venues. And I'm just amazed by the things she's able to do with balloons, you know, and, and, and creating them into, to outfits and the things that she does with them. It's so it's, it's really visually inspiring to me. And I'd love to see that translated onto a canvas. So, I've started a conversation and dialogue there, so that's just where the direction my work's gone.

[00:18:14] And I gotta say, it's not, it's not something that I, I sought out. It just started to evolve and you know, I'm, and I'm not trying to drive it in a particular direction. I want it to go wherever it goes and that's difficult. I mean, I think we all would like to know with some certainty what the future holds, and I think part of being an artist is just kind of embracing the journey and going where it takes you. You know, on one hand, you've got to have a plan, but your plan also needs to be flexible enough that it can go wherever it needs to.

[00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I have to say on behalf of a dancer, and I'm pretty sure this would go to other movement based art forms as well that you've captured, I have to say personally that one of the things that I so appreciate about your particular work-- when you paint dancers and aerialists and other types of moving-based performers, is that you are very diligent about capturing it correctly. And what I mean by that is we've just observed over the years-- like in a lot of our work, there's a, maybe you could call it a more whimsical or abstract approach, and sometimes as a dancer, you look at it and you go, "Well, that's not actually how that works or we can't physically make that shape because that's not how our, you know, and so I've always really appreciated your attention to detail. And so when you do choose to paint, somebody like that, that you understand, like the body mechanics behind that, so thank you on behalf of all the dancers for that.

[00:19:56] Rick Wright: Well, that's a huge compliment coming from a performer like yourself because I really enjoy it when another artist can see my work and appreciate something that maybe just the casual observer doesn't pick up on. So I like to work in a way that is thoughtful and intelligent, what I'm trying to do. And, so I appreciate that you see things in my work of dancers that I guess I just, I appreciate knowing that I'm doing something right there.

[00:20:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, you definitely are. Well, I have a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests, if that's okay with you.

[00:20:38] Rick Wright: Sure. Absolutely.

[00:20:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:20:46] Rick Wright: You know, I, I, I feel like to me, you know, it, it's an outlet and an exploration first and foremost, and I think if we're lucky it becomes an end product, but I don't know that that is necessarily the most important. I think there is, there is value in the exploration that, that just happens with all things creative, whether it's dance or it's paint or it's clay. It's about communicating, it's, it's communicating with different materials or in different ways than the verbal or auditory that we're used to. I, I think it's, you know, it's a little bit of your, your soul, you know, uncovering your soul, whether you realize it or not. I think it's about just exposing your, your true self.

[00:21:42] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that and I really appreciate what you said, and I haven't heard this yet is, that the, the end product doesn't necessarily matter. That there's a lot of value even in the process. I think that that is incredibly insightful and something to really take to heart because you're right. I mean, it's, it's wonderful when something emerges from it that you go, "Oh yeah, I like that. I'm proud of that." But you know, there's still value in that creation process, regardless of where it goes.

[00:22:16]Rick Wright: Right. And what, and when something emerges and you're like, you're, you're proud of that. And it may have emerged in a different direction than you intended, and then, but you gotta be able to recognize, gosh, this, this is different, but I like what's happening there. And I think being able to have the flexibility to see that, you know, allow the journey to happen and go where it may. And the reality is you've got to practice, you've got to fail, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what those failures look like, but you learn from those mistakes and you grow from them.

[00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I'm going to misquote it because I don't remember exactly, but I remember an artist talking about how at the beginning you have to get used to the fact that a lot of what you make-- especially if you're trying to make a career out of art-- isn't going to be good. It just isn't because you just don't have the experience that a more mature artist has, and so his point was just keep creating, creating, creating, because you'll get there. Be patient for that journey because it takes time and it's okay if you don't like everything you produce, that's not the end goal here.

[00:23:25] Rick Wright: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I gotta tell myself that all the time, you know, I'm looking for that end goal from time to time. And you gotta tell yourself to back off on it and just let the work happen and grow.

[00:23:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:23:41] Rick Wright: On the business end of things, like I've got to do this, and then this number of shows and I have to sell this many pieces, but the more important thing that I just gotta tell myself is just go to your studio and paint, yeah, I think more, more, more.

[00:23:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:24:03] Rick Wright: You know, I think there's some responsibilities that the artists have. I think honesty and, personal, personal perspectives. I think there's things that happen in this world that we need artists, creatives, performers to react to, to communicate about, guide, challenge. I think that's one of the more important jobs right now. There are brilliant, passionate artists out there that are that are making a difference. And I think that's super important. And I'll be honest that I don't necessarily think my own work is challenging any norms in society, per se, but I think those that are out there doing that really have my, my respect and I, I value that we all have a duty just to be honest with ourselves and you don't have to put up a front, you know, just be, be the person you are, do the work that you want to do and put it out there.

[00:25:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, don't be afraid. And I don't want to gloss over that because that's a hard one.

[00:25:08]Rick Wright: You can choose how much of yourself to put out there. I mean maybe you're a little bit conservative by nature and that's fine, but you know, just those, those little, little pieces of truth are, are valuable.

[00:25:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay! And then my last question, and I can define it a little bit, but so the question is, do you think art should be inclusive or exclusive? And those words can mean a few different things. So I'll just define them how I'm intending. So, exclusive referring to, the artist kind of creates something, puts it out in the world and the audience or the viewer or whatever doesn't necessarily have context for it. So they might not know even necessarily, like, the title of the piece, or what inspired it, or, you know, et cetera--versus inclusive, meaning the artist gives that context. So maybe it's what inspired them, or what the piece is about-- does that make sense?

[00:26:07] Rick Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I mean, I think there's some, I think there's some value in both. What I value within my own work is--so someone who finds a piece that they, they fall in love with it for their own reasons, whether they knew the artist's intention or not. I mean, I think there's value in having a conversation with a piece that's on their own terms and not necessarily, "What was the artist's intention or what's the title of this?" Or, or "Why was it made or, or what is it about?" I mean, I think I like that anybody can have a conversation on their own terms with a particular piece and find what they, how they react to it. And, I get it. If somebody looks at, one of my painting's like, "I don't get it, I'm done with it. And I'm just going to walk away."

[00:26:57] I mean, that's their own terms as well, and I felt that way too about walking through an art museum and, encountering some pieces like, you know, I just don't get it. There's a little plaque on the wall. It tells me a little bit, but you know what, ultimately, not so much interested, but I've also found there have been pieces like that. And then I've had some interaction with someone else or an art history class, or I've educated myself about it further. And then I'm like, you know, I, I really didn't like this so much to start off with, but now that I have the backstory, I find it more intriguing. Maybe it's, maybe it's not the aesthetic that I was looking for, but I have a better appreciation of it.

[00:27:38] So, I think there's value in both inclusivity and exclusivity. I am a big, advocate of art being all inclusive and whatever that looks like. So I think everybody can have a reaction to pieces. I'm not really great about communicating about my own work. So if someone else can find something that they love about it, then that's important to me because I'm not always certain what it is that I really like about a particular piece that I'm putting out there. It's, you know, it just, it happened and it's there and it's, it's up to someone else to decide how they want to react to it.

[00:28:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you again, just so much, Rick, for joining us today. And if there's anyone who wants to maybe check out your work or get in contact with you, is there a way that they can do that?

[00:28:34] Rick Wright: Sure, so I have a presence on social media, whether it's Instagram or Facebook, it's Rick Wright Art. Wright is W R I G H T. I also have a website, rickwrightart.com. So feel free to check me out there, click on some links, shoot me a message or something. I try to exhibit, you know, locally around Kansas City and regionally as well. So, and I'm always, I'm always happy to talk shop with other people, other creatives in the community as well.

[00:29:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah, definitely at the very least take some time to check out his artwork because it is beautiful. And I just want to say, Rick, you know, again, personally, I've gotten to see some of your artwork and experience it. And I just, I just want to say thank you for being an artist and sharing your art. I truly believe that when you're brave enough to do so, you, you make the world a better, more beautiful place. And so I just want to say thank you, for sharing what you do and what you love with the world. I know I appreciate it.

[00:29:38] Rick Wright: Oh, well, thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be here today and, and I, I value what you do and I look forward to us crossing paths again and putting our art out there in the community.

[00:29:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. Well, thanks everyone so much for tuning in today, and we will catch you next time.

[00:29:59] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:30:10] Hey, Artfully Told listeners. I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out, or dabbli n g , or you do have that budget available to you, they do have options for every budget level. They provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality, unique products through their website. And right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Krista Eyler! Krista hails from Kansas City, and shares her stories about seeing several musicals growing up that inspired her to become the singer/songwriter/actress/producer she is now!

Links to get in touch with Krista Eyler: https://www.facebook.com/sharpwomen2/ | https://www.sharpwomen.org/ | https://www.facebook.com/funkymama

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 003: Krista Eyler

Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista Eyler: [00:00:06] I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life.

[00:00:12] Roman: [00:00:12] All I can do is put my heart in to the world.

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: [00:00:15] It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough.

[00:00:23] Elna: [00:00:23] Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:31] Hello everyone. Welcome to Artfully Told. I'm Lindsey, and I am so excited to have a very special guest on our show today. Her name is Krista Eyler, and she is an extraordinary woman. She has done so much for the arts, not only in Kansas. City, but her reach is extending far beyond. She has co-written, co-produced her own musical, which was incredible. And I'm saying that cause I got to see it and I just love it. It's so charming. But she is constantly creating and innovating and bringing so much joy to the world. So I am so excited, Krista, that you're here. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:01:14] Krista Eyler: [00:01:14] Thank you, Lindsey, and thank you for those kind words. That was very sweet way to start my day.

[00:01:19] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:01:19] Of course. Of course. So Krista, do you mind just sharing a little bit about who you are and what you're up to these days and just?

[00:01:28] Krista Eyler: [00:01:28] Sure, you know, it's funny to kind of sum up when someone says, you know, what do you do? Hard question to answer when, you know, at the age I am--43--you say, what do you, what do you do, Krista? Now there are things you get paid for and then there are things that you do. And I think as an artist, we all have to do a lot of things.

[00:01:54] Now what I would say I am--I'm a mom, first, of two teenage boys. I'm a wife. I am a composer and an actress. And, I like to write. I mean, I would probably classify myself as a singer before anything else, but you see, it's hard to, it's hard to sum up, so I like to say that I'm a composer, actress, singer, mom, wife... How's that?

[00:02:21] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:02:21] It's perfect. I love it. Yeah, and so just tell us, a little bit about the different musicals. I know, obviously you got to produce one. What was that, two years ago now? Oh my gosh.

[00:02:32] Krista Eyler: [00:02:32] Well, it was just, actually last summer. You mentioned--the musical's called "Overture," and it was about the 1953 season of the Kansas City Philharmonic. And the Philharmonic was kind of the, you know, the father of our current, Kansas City Symphony. So we had the great pleasure of taking 19 Kansas City people to the New York Musical Festival last summer. We were accepted as one of the 10 full-length productions and we won Best of Fest Production there. We won the Audience Choice Award. There are two kind of big festival awards and we won one of them and we had quite an adventure. It was an extraordinary, from start to finish, kind of three year endeavor.

[00:03:20] And, my co-writer, Barb Nichols, she's also a local Kansas City director, and she and I have known each other for over 20 years. So our, our business partnership is very easy and we're also good friends. And, so just this last--after we got back from New York, we had an opportunity to buy a building on Southwest Boulevard, and we turned it into rehearsal studios. So we have a studio now called Sharp Women's Studios. That's the name of our LLC, and we're down on the Boulevard and this whole quarantine stuff--has messed up our entire plan. I know that is a small, small thing when there are so many people who have been suffering, truly suffering in both their physical health, emotional health, and their financial health. So I'm very grateful that we have a space. We've had a safe space to go and build things and have meetings and have social distancing. So we're very, very fortunate. I feel very fortunate, to be in the position that I am when I know a lot of other artists have, it's so much harder than I do.

[00:04:25]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:04:25] Sure. Yeah, it's a challenge for everybody, but you have a really positive outlook on it, but it is difficult.

[00:04:32]Krista Eyler: [00:04:32] My brain likes to be busy all the time. I really honestly don't like to rest a lot. My battery does kind of recharging. So, my battery wants to go. And so when I have gigs canceled, or acting gigs postponed or flat out canceled, it's really, it's a blow, you know. It's one of those: I worked for that part and I got that part and now it's gone.

[00:04:57] And I think artists across our city are feeling exactly the same thing cause their gig has been canceled. Their side gigs have been canceled. So what do you do when your gig has been canceled? Your side gig's canceled. That's hard. It's a difficult time that we are dealing with, but you know, art survives and art goes on because if you're an artist, you just keep making stuff.

[00:05:22] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:05:22] Yeah, it's compulsory. You have to, yeah. Well, thank you for that perspective. I would just love to hear stories that you have about encounters with art. Something maybe that kind of stood out to you that made an impact on you as a person or on your work.

[00:05:41]Krista Eyler: [00:05:41] I will just speak from my experience. No, my background was in television journalism. I was a news reporter for five years with Channel Nine News here in Kansas City, and before that I was a reporter in Topeka, and journalism was kind of my track.

[00:05:55] I had always been a singer from the time I was four years old in church, and I've always sung, always played guitar and piano, and so, but I just took a different career path. So now, now that I'm doing full time acting and writing and performing, it's quite a different, quite a different world.

[00:06:15]I don't really have a process of creating it. Like I said, my brain is always working. And so I feel like an idea will come. Usually it's a musical idea, something for the stage. And I'll, Barb and I'll sit down and we'll just kind of flesh the idea out as much as we can to see if it's worth doing.

[00:06:37] And we, one of the shaping memories I had was: In 1983 I think it was, Yul Brynner came through Kansas City in a touring company of "The King and I," and it was down at The Midland. And if you've ever been to the Midland Theater, it's a more intimate theater, but it's very steep. It has lots of levels.

[00:07:00] And my mom had kind of splurged to buy a tickets for my brother and I, and for my mom to go see "The King and I." And so we had really good seats and I remember so much red in the room and how the seats felt. And I remember there he was--like, he came out on stage and stopped the show. And, it's one of those very big kind of very much a sense memory for me that it was magical, you know, theater that came very magical for me.

[00:07:31] Another one of those moments that I had was where I saw, Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson in "Jesus Christ Superstar." And they're the ones that you see in the movie, if you're not familiar with the show, but they were the originals, for the movie, and then spent their careers touring with "Jesus Christ Superstar."

[00:07:49] I have never quite experienced a show that was stopped twice because of applause. I mean, these two men in their prime --I got to see them in their prime. Carl Anderson is now deceased and Ted Neeley's in his seventies. But it was extraordinary, the power of something on stage to affect my emotions so deeply.

[00:08:09] And it's one of those memories I have that I can access any time. And it just expresses to me the magic of musical theater because that's--that's my greatest love is musical theater. And another memory: I got to see Bernadette Peters in "Gypsy" on Broadway. My mom and I went and, her little, she's a tiny little person and she's just the tiniest little China doll of a person.

[00:08:37]And as soon as people heard her voice from the back of the house, she walked through the house where the, you know, the "Sing Out, Louise," everybody stood up and stopped the show for a good three minutes applauding her. They did the same thing after she did "Rose's Turn" and I could, I mean, I could barely contain myself. It was just one of those things where you feel like you're, you're crying and you're jumping out of your skin, and everything about it is so perfect. And I, I've learned--watching her, she uses every little bit of that little body, from the top of her head to her toes, to convey emotion. And just so physical.

[00:09:11] I really, there's, those are some very specific memories for me, both as a writer and an actress to go use your full instrument, whether it is, singing or acting or writing, you try to use your full instrument. When I'm writing, I sometimes tell myself like, "What else? You know, what else can I do to this? What else does this song need? What is it missing?" Or I'll record it all, put it in my phone so I can listen to it in my car speakers, and then I go, "Oh, that's what's missing." There's a string section missing, or I should have cymbals there, or, you know, it's just--I feel like writing and composing--I mean, you're a dancer, you know, it's a full body experience.

[00:09:51] Whether you're a dancer or not, but I can describe it as that--anything I do when I'm creating, it's kind of a full body mind, body, spirit experience.

[00:10:02]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:10:02] I love that. And I love the idea of what else, what else can there be to make it even more robust, more inspirational, more touching? I love that. What a great perspective on...

[00:10:14] Krista Eyler: [00:10:14] I hope so. You know, I have my favorite instruments that make me either have goosebumps or tear up or, you know, music can break your heart. And when we say that in "Overture," because it's true, your heart, because if you put an oboe with a cello and a piano and a French horn, I mean those are the break-your-heart instruments: gorgeous.

[00:10:36] Put them in a layer. Then it just gives such--it's like eating an awesome piece of cake. It's just so pleasurable that your mind, a body--it's just like all the endorphins come, and when... I think I had a moment when I wrote something, and you know when you write music and you have to listen to it over and over and over and over again, which gets very laborious--but I remember a song came on that I wrote, and it didn't register as my, my song. It was just a song that was on, and I remember getting goosebumps because of the chord formations and I was like, well, all right, let's keep it.

[00:11:18] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:20]Krista Eyler: [00:11:20] I'm the harshest critic, of course. I'm, I'm pretty hard on myself, which I probably shouldn't be, but I am.

[00:11:29] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:11:29] Every artist I think has that.

[00:11:31] Krista Eyler: [00:11:31] I think artists are, I mean, I think we're sensitive and I think we're hard on ourselves. And I think being the age I am, it's given me some perspective of--give yourself some grace--and I never think I'm going to be the best at something and I probably never will be the best at something, but I'm going to do my best whatever I'm doing because there's always going to be something, someone with a different cool idea that you didn't think of, or there'll be able to do something cool that you didn't, aren't able to do. And I think I've been able to accept that more. In the last five, six years to stop being so competitive in art and just appreciate and affirm in other people what they're doing.

[00:12:12] I mean, I learned from going, "Oh, that was a great layering of sound, or oh my gosh, did you hear how she's saying that?" I'm trying to be better about building other people up , making a point to note it. "Yeah, that's really good," because I mean, I like to be encouraged. I imagine other people like to be encouraged too.

[00:12:33] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:12:33] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Did that come about, do you think, in more of a director role? I mean, is that something that kind of developed being in a leadership position?

[00:12:42] Krista Eyler: [00:12:42] I just think I wanted to stop being so prideful about art. You know, I think we've all met artists who are arrogant, and we've met artists who are very humble, and I want to be more like the humble artists who, if there's something that I do that it touches somebody else or makes them have a moment of joy or takes them out of their normal, normal thought patterns into something really cool, then, I want to do that. But I want to do it in a way that's open to other artists, and is friendly to other artists and kind of just affirms what's good and other artists, because there's so much competition. And I was so, you know--acting is so competitive. I mean, dance is competitive. Any art form, it's competitive. Yeah, and just like my journalism jobs were competitive, you know, I had to be competitive. I would never call myself laid back. I can be a pretty intense person when I'm working on a project. but hopefully I'm a nice person.

[00:13:45]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:13:45] And so what was the experience like? I mean, I am a little biased-- I have had the wonderful experience of seeing "Overture" actually a couple times. You kind of spearheaded this whole project from start to finish in so many aspects and then you starred in it. What was it like when you took your final bow at that, the first time that you got to perform the entire thing ? What was that like?

[00:14:10]Krista Eyler: [00:14:10] It was very special. I mean, when you worked so hard on something and we had so much help fundraising, helping us fundraise, because musicals are freaking expensive. We had so much help. And when you're standing out there and people are appreciating, or they've been touched by something that you've done--it's, it's, it's a very strange but wonderful feeling. I remember walking out on stage and it was funny -- not funny--it was a bit panicky. It was, we were at Fringe and we were opening the show, I think might've been the first show-- all the mics went out. We had no sound, no sound. And I remember I'm and I was just about to go on and I have the opening song in "Overture" and it really just, there's a chord roll, and then I sing and that's it.

[00:15:02] And I'm a woman of faith and I remember feeling very uptight for about 30 seconds cause we were, we were only at like, we were at places, we were holding. And, I remember having a moment of, "Oh my gosh, we have no mics. We have no mics for the orchestra, we have no mics for people." And then I went, "Nope." I went, "Okay, Jesus. I see. I see. And I'm going to sing without a mic. And all the other people are going to sing without a mic because you've allowed me to train to have a bigger voice and don't need a mic."

[00:15:33] So I, I turned from panic to--we're just gonna do this. We're just gonna do this. And everybody else, you know, we had an amazing team and everybody else was like, yup, that's what we're doing. I mean, I think you lead by example by working harder than everyone else, or as hard as anyone else. I kind of like to work harder or try and just not complain.

[00:16:03] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:16:03] That's a hard one. Yeah.

[00:16:05] Krista Eyler: [00:16:05] Especially like in New York where we were running on zero sleep, changing the show almost every day, managing, you know, driving back and forth to Brooklyn, unloading every single day. It was physically exhausting and mentally exhausting. You just gotta dig deep. Well, you gotta dig down and just do it and try not to be a jerk to the people.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:16:31] Right. Right. Yeah!

[00:16:32] Krista Eyler: [00:16:32] It was pretty cool to open in New York, I was sitting on the side of the stage at The Signature Theatre, and we were at places and I looked around, you know, I looked across the stage and I saw my friends and I looked at the pit. You know, my brother was our accompanist and all my friends, all my friends were there. Oh, and so I looked, it was like--we're in New York on 42nd Street and we're about to open a show that I wrote and how fun is this? You know? That was a special--that's a moment I can't replicate ever in my life. Yeah. It's one of those where you, I think it's rare when you get to know that that's one of those moments in your life that you're going to look back on and when you recognize it and give thanks for it. And I remember just sitting there giving thanks for it going, "This is crazy. How did I get here?" And hearing them on the stage left of The Signature Theatre stage about to go sing my songs--it was so, it was surreal and marvelous.

[00:17:30]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:17:30] There couldn't be anything like that moment. That is, that is wonderful.

[00:17:35] Krista Eyler: [00:17:35] No, and I'll never have another one like it probably in my life. So when you have those moments, it's good to notice it. There's a line, and I, I won't, I promise I won't curse on your podcast. There's a line in my favorite movie from "The Color Purple" that says, "I think it P I S S E S God off if you walk by the color purple and you don't notice it," and I feel that way very much in my life. If you don't notice those small moments of brilliant color, then I think you're not being grateful for what you have. And I'm trying to be grateful for those small and big moments.

[00:18:12] Especially now, these last few months have been really hard, and it's, I think it's very hard to keep a positive attitude. You know, I've had days where I've cried, days where I've been happy. it's just, this is unprecedented time for artists especially, and everybody is just trying to find the happy where they can.

[00:18:32] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:18:32] Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. I love that. Well, I have a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests, if that's okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:18:48] Krista Eyler: [00:18:48] What is art to me? I think it's making something from nothing. And no, there's a song called "Finishing the Hat," and it talks about that creation of, you know--I made a hat where there never was a hat, and art to me is really just that. And I'm glad I rhymed those two lines. It's making something from nothing that hopefully will make somebody else feel something very important or have a very visceral, emotional response. I mean, everything I write musically is to reach someone else, is to entertain someone else, is to give, you know, that pleasure in your ears from some really great music and singing.

[00:19:38]That's, that's kind of how I see art. You know what? I'm not a scholar of art. I'm not a scholar of dance. I'm not a scholar of music theory. I'm basically not a scholar of anything except the raising my children, but when it comes to art, I just, I just really feel great satisfaction when you make something that wasn't there before and then it's there, then you've brought it into existence and then you wonder why it was not there before.

[00:20:11] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:20:11] I love that. Because you hadn't created it yet, I guess!

[00:20:17] Krista Eyler: [00:20:17] I hadn't created it. Every once in a while I'll wake up with a song in my head. And I'll go, "What is that song?" I was like, "I know that song. What is that song?" Then I went, "Oh, I haven't written it yet. Oh, I haven't written that song yet." That's happened to me several times.

[00:20:33]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:20:33] That is awesome.

[00:20:34] Krista Eyler: [00:20:34] Weird, isn't it?

[00:20:35] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:20:35] No, I love it. It doesn't happen to me, but, but I love it. Okay, what do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:20:47] Krista Eyler: [00:20:47] I think artists help people in the world, see things in a different way. I think. I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. I mean, what would we do without, you know, the great playwrights who have shown us corners of the world that I will never see or make music from different countries that I, I didn't grow up in that tradition, so I would never have heard it. I mean, an artist's job is to enrich life for others. I don't, I mean, I inherently, I think the creation of art is kind of selfish because we have to, it comes from our brain, comes from our hand.

[00:21:31] We're very happy or sad with it. But I really think art is, for me, it's so cliche, but art is for everyone and artists need to create for people out in the world who are non-artists, so they can see a different perspective of the world--they can hear something, see something, do something different that will be better and change, possibly even change your mind and then change your, how you operate in your daily life. I mean, that is a profoundly important thing that art can do, is change how people think. And I mean, that's powerful. It's very powerful. Yeah.

[00:22:08] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:22:08] Yeah. No, it absolutely is. Okay. I love that answer. Okay. And, my last question is, I'll explain the words I'm going to use because it's--might not be very clear--but do you think, just in your own personal opinion, do you think that art should be exclusive or inclusive? And those words I know are a little odd to use, but I'll just define that a little bit more. So exclusive being, sort of, the artist creates something, puts it out there and then doesn't give a whole lot of description. Versus inclusive, being more like, can you tell us your inspiration behind it or what the title or whatever. How do you feel about that?

[00:22:48] Krista Eyler: [00:22:48] I always prefer things that are inclusive. You know, an artist can create something and put a painting up on a wall and it has deep, deep significance, but as just a lay person in society, if I walk by and all I see is red--then I would really like to be connected to a piece if you would explain it to me. I mean, I think that's the selfish part of art as well--"I'm not going to explain myself."

[00:23:14] I was like, "Well, that's kinda dumb. Why would you not explain it to me? So I love it as much as you do." I think that's also an artist personality. I think every art is different, and if an artist is afraid of what someone might say of their work, then they'll just say, "I don't need to explain it to you. It is what it is." And I think I agree with some of that. Like when I write music, I don't want someone to come along and change it cause that's what was in my head, but I certainly will try to explain it. If someone said, "I don't understand why that--that sounds weird--why is that there?" And I said, "Well, it kind of goes along with what's being sung."

[00:23:50] I will always go on the side of more communication and more arts understanding because, especially I think in the Midwest, if you--there are so many inner circles, there are inner circles and inside jokes with theater and musical theater and plays and dance references and art references, and if you're not included in that--then I think art's a real turnoff.

[00:24:13] You know, with dance, I will admit my complete lack of knowledge. I mean, I love, I love to tap dance, but I'm, I don't know anything about ballet. I mean, I know nothing about the greats other than what I've read or picked up on my own. I know Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater is my favorite dance troupe in the whole entire world because I've gotten to experience their work over and over and over watching it. And I also had some explanation behind it, so I knew what was going on. Like with a lot of ballet, I don't know what's going on with opera. I don't know what is happening. I, my brain just goes, "Okay, I'm done."

[00:24:53] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:24:53] Sure.

[00:24:54] Krista Eyler: [00:24:54] I will try and try and try to have patience and focus, but if it's not explained to me, then I have no clue, which leads to no interest.

[00:25:03] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:25:03] Right.

[00:25:03] Krista Eyler: [00:25:03] So I think art should be inclusive--as inclusive as possible. The more understanding someone can bring to their work, the more I will be drawn to it. I think that's just me though. I mean, a lot of people are just like, "Well, it's my art and I'll do what I want and take it."

[00:25:22]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:25:22] Well, that's excellent. Thank you so much. I just love your perspective. And you know, just on a personal note, cause again, I've, I've had the pleasure of watching your work ,and I just wanna say thank you so much for creating art because, as someone who's been on the receiving end of it, I have to say that I've been very inspired and you've brought a lot of joy to your audiences, so thank you for that.

[00:25:47] Krista Eyler: [00:25:47] I appreciate those kind words that, you know, I don't write complicated things. I hopefully write things that reach people in an emotional way that's positive and hopeful --even, you know, even when there is pain, I like to talk about, you know, redemption after the pain. So, it's been a pleasure talking with you, Lindsey.

[00:26:08] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:26:08] Yeah. Well, and, okay, so, is there a way that we can connect with you? Do you have any future projects coming up you'd like to tell us about?

[00:26:18] Krista Eyler: [00:26:18] I do, and I have written, we finished our second musical called "The Sparkletones" inspired by--it takes place in 1969, Kansas. It's a singing group of four women who kind of gets stuck in a diner, and a lot changes in all of their lives in one night. And the story was inspired by my mom who's sang in a Sweet Adelines Group in Kansas in the sixties and she kept in touch with her other Sparkletones. People threw a round-robin letter series, which is one person writes a letter to the second person, the second person, right, puts their letter in, and it kind of goes around, and they've been doing that for over 40 years. So, I kind of too--inspired by her story and the letters and got to work on a musical, and we're going to debut it next March at the Johnson County Arts and Heritage Center.

[00:27:09] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:27:09] Oh, that's so exciting. Awesome.

[00:27:12] Krista Eyler: [00:27:12] I'm in the show this time. I'm not a lead. So that takes the pressure off me to be involved. We, we have a very strong cast and creative team and it's going to be a great show. It's going to be fun.

[00:27:27] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:27:27] That is exciting. And so if people want to, kind of keep up with that and keep up with some of your other work, because I know you, again, you're multifaceted, where can they connect with you.

[00:27:38] Krista Eyler: [00:27:38] They can find me on Facebook, just under my name, Krista Eyler, or through Sharp Women Studios. All of that's on Facebook. We also have a website called sharpwomen.org, so I'm, I'm easy to find.

[00:27:59] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:27:59] Excellent. Okay, well, perfect. Well, thank you again so much, Krista. I really appreciate your perspective. And again, on behalf of myself because I've gotten to experience it--but on behalf of everyone who's gotten to experience your art, I do want to say thank you because I do think that there's a lot of value, in creating art and sharing it.

[00:28:20]Krista Eyler: [00:28:20] Thank you for having me.

[00:28:21] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:28:21] All right, well, have an amazing day and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode, and we will catch you next time.

[00:28:37] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:28:46]Hey Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you about Bluprint, which is the most amazing website for artists and makers of all levels. Bluprint lets you dig into anything you've ever daydreamed about doing like dance, fitness, yoga, art, and home decorating, plus all the arts and crafts categories you know and love. More than 13 million enthusiasts, from artists to quilters and beyond, make Bluprint their home for binge-worthy, on-demand content, access to the world's top experts, and curated supplies all served up in a fun, loving, creative community. Super cool. And even better--currently, they're offering 50% off their classes. So if you are interested in taking advantage of that--learning a new skill, having an amazing time working with experts in their fields--you will love to take advantage of this offer. And you'll just click on the link in my comments and my show notes and you'll be rocking and rolling, and we will catch you next time.

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

View Details

In this episode, I welcome Bryant Williams! Bryant hails from Mexico, and shares his stories about encounters with art that changed the trajectory of his life.

Links to get in touch with Bryant Williams: https://www.facebook.com/BeMovedBryant/ | https://www.facebook.com/kcjazzdance/

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 002 - Bryant Williams

Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: [00:00:06] "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12] Roman: [00:00:12] "All I can do is put my heart in to the world."

[00:00:15] Elizabeth: [00:00:15] "It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough."

[00:00:23] Elna: [00:00:23] "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful."

[00:00:33] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:33] Hello and welcome to another episode of Artfully Told. I am Lindsey, and I am so excited to have one of my very favorite people on the show today, and his name is Bryant Williams, and he actually is hailing from Mexico on a beach. So I'm super jealous, but that's okay.

[00:00:57] But I am so excited. He is an amazing artist. He has had an incredible career as a professional dancer, choreographer, teacher, but that just like barely scratches the surface of who he is, what he contributes to the world through his art. So I will actually let Bryant introduce himself, but thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:23]Bryant Williams: [00:01:23] Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me and thanks for creating this platform for us to come together and talk about art and how it inspires us. I think now more than ever is the time to really figure out the new directions for art.

[00:01:38] I've spent my whole life as a dancer. I started when I was five years old, and I started because I didn't get a job for a commercial that I auditioned for because I wasn't a dancer, and I was so upset that someone said no to me. And so I told Mom she had to put me into dance classes because I needed to get that job at five.

[00:02:01]And I started dance classes and fell in love with it, and dance and art in general have been in my blood, you know, ever since then and even before then. But my career has taken me all over the world. I trained to dance in New York City professionally, Chicago, L.A., Miami, and all over the world, which has been incredible, and really helped me gain inspiration from every corner and every culture, which has been awesome.

[00:02:30]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:02:30] That is awesome. Yeah. Well again, thank you for being here cause I'm super excited to chat with you

[00:02:36] Bryant Williams: [00:02:36] I'm so excited to be here!

[00:02:39] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:02:39] So I know you have a couple of different stories of some encounters with art that were particularly meaningful to you. So I would love, if you don't mind sharing.

[00:02:49]Bryant Williams: [00:02:49] Yeah. I think the first one-- art to me is so personal and spiritual in a way, you know, it's, and they always say, one moment in your life can completely change you, you know. As "Wicked" said best, you know, and far good. You know, there's so many unexpected moments that change you. When I was a young kid, I think I was 13, I was staying up late one night and I was watching a PBS documentary on the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater.

[00:03:19] Now, keep in mind, when I was growing up as a kid, I was a jazz dancer. I was a competition kid, and I loved jazz. Still do. And so I was staying up really late watching this documentary on Alvin Ailey, which some of you may or may not know is the world's largest modern dance company. And they were talking about Mr. Ailey's specific, religious influences and how, his quote, unquote, "blood memories," as he called them, of his time growing up in Texas and the very religious culture that he grew up in had really inspired him to create some of the works that we love and know from him and his company.

[00:03:56] And there was this light bulb that went off in me, while I was up, I think it was like midnight that this was on. But I remember thinking, "Holy cow, like, wait, I can take my faith and I can take my personal life experiences and I can put that into my dance." And that all goes together. I think that as a young kid like that had never really, that had never really, come up for me. I just thought dance was jazz squares and a high kick.

[00:04:24] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:04:24] Everyone loves a good jazz square.

[00:04:25] Bryant Williams: [00:04:25] Right? I had never, I, I had never been so moved by someone being able to say, you can take every little part of yourself, every little piece of what makes you you and put that into dance. And that's what dance is. That is what people resonate with when they watched dance and that has never left me--that one moment. And I remember going to the library, this was back before, we had like computers at home, and I went to the library, and I started researching Alvin Ailey and it turned out they were coming to the Bay area.

[00:04:57] I'm originally from San Francisco. They were on their national tour and they were coming, and I begged my mom to buy me tickets to go see the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. And as true mothers do, she made me clean the garage, and I did it. And we sat, we sat there in the performance and the curtain came up. And I'm getting goosebumps telling you this now-- the curtain came up and there was a woman dressed in white. Her name was Renee Robinson--is Renee Robinson-- and all she did was walk down stage, in this white costume in this white light, and it was to, "Come Sunday" was the song, and I burst into tears and I can't, I cannot even tell you why I did.

[00:05:43] I just had this visceral moment of connection to her and this dance. And that had never happened in my life, especially for, you know a teenager. The piece was called "Grace," choreographed by Ronald K. Brown. And the piece is essentially about-- we are born free from sin and we are born in grace and through life, through the challenges that we have, we are in constant struggle of good and bad, of the choices we make and you know, of, just navigating our life. I think that resonates so much now in this current climate. And at the end of the piece, reprieves comes of "Come Sunday," and the entire company walks upstage into a white light, to really signify that at the end of our lives, we go into grace.

[00:06:32]And the curtain comes down and I look over at my mom and she is a blubbering mess. And I'm a blubbering mess, and it was intermission after that and we sat there during intermission and didn't say a thing. And to me, you know, when you told me that this episode was talking about, you know, art that inspired you, I think that to me was the first time I was ever viscerally moved by a piece of art. And that I'd never understood that dance can tell a story in that way that can connect to you in that way without ever saying anything.

[00:07:11] Um, still to this day, I think about "Grace" and you know, the impact that Ronald K. Brown had on me, in that moment, because it was, it was ever changing, you know, and my mom and I left the performance. They, of course, closed the performance with Alvin Ailey's "Revelations," and we walked out into the lobby and we saw a poster in the lobby saying they were auditioning for the summer program for the school the next day.

[00:07:39]I begged my mom to take me to the audition. and she did, and I was accepted, and I was in New York a couple months later in the summer program, and then never left. That's how I got to New York. For me, like, seeing "Grace" and being touched by this piece of art completely changed my life.

[00:08:01] You know, who knew before me watching that PBS documentary a couple of months earlier, and within six months I was living in New York and dancing in New York, and never left. And my professional career went on from there. You know, I think itself, it's so interesting even now to go watch dance performances.

[00:08:17] And I'm sure you have some too-- moments that you have when a piece of art just moves you so much. You know, whether it makes you cry or whether it makes you laugh. You know, dance is meant to convey that story.

[00:08:29]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:08:29] Yeah. That's beautiful. You were probably already on the path to become a dancer, a professional, but I love how that completely changed your trajectory. Who knew? You know, that's so cool.

[00:08:42] Bryant Williams: [00:08:42] In a moment, and I think that's one of the coolest things about art in general is, you know, art has that opportunity to truly touch you in a way, Even songs, like, I'm sure all of us can think of a song that can make you cry, that can make you miss somebody.

[00:08:58] Have you seen the, I dunno if you've seen that, "30 Day Music Challenge" that's going around.

[00:09:02] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:09:02] I haven't...

[00:09:03] Bryant Williams: [00:09:03] And it's on Facebook and every day, like, there's different themes of like songs you can choose. But I saw that and immediately thought of like, Oh my God, even music is so interesting. And when you're really forced to think of, well, what's a song that makes you think of this? Or what's a song that you know, reminds you of that? It's a really interesting concept of how art is impactful, you know, in so many ways.

[00:09:26]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:09:26] Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:09:28]Bryant Williams: [00:09:28] There's so much inspiration out there. You know, I think as an artist, you're constantly looking for, the next thing to inspire you. You know, you're constantly aware of your surroundings and what's happening, because this could be that moment, you know, this could be that, that inspiration that you have. I choreographed a piece a couple years ago, and I kept looking for inspiration everywhere, you know, like what? And it was, the theme was I had to theme the piece around-- what's the word I'm looking for?

[00:09:57]A painter and artist, and I, I can't--let's see--now I can't think, but we're just going to keep moving on. I had to find an artist, a theme, a dance around, and I kept going back and forth, and there was one piece in particular--I had the idea of what I wanted to do and it was a crazy idea, but I didn't have the artist.

[00:10:19]And so I kept looking and looking and I found this mirrored room online, and I just love the picture of it. And it is an art installation, and it is a room full of mirrors and all of these circles and orbs. And I just thought it was so cool. And so I thought--keep in mind this dance that I was choreographing had a lot of big balls in it that the dancers were using to manipulate in their dancing.

[00:10:48]And so I was really inspired. I was intrigued by this room, and I started looking up the artist, and it's a Japanese artist, and her name is. Yayoi Kusama. And I could be pronouncing that wrong. I apologize if I am. But what I thought was cool is she only draws circles and all of her art and these huge installations that she does is all in circles, whether it's a painting, sculpture, these giant installations, like that room of mirrors. It's a really abstract kind of thing, but I thought it was really cool. And so I started looking her up-- and what I think is more interesting, that really resonated with me-- is, since she was a young child, she actually has been experiencing hallucinations.

[00:11:30]And she was in and out of mental hospitals when she was younger, and a lot of people called her crazy. And one of the only things that ever helped and assisted with those hallucinations or those episodes was drawing circles. And that like, really blew my mind in a way because, you know, we all have those coping mechanisms, right? And this artist has found a way to take that coping mechanism that, you know, a way of life for her, and turn it into art. And I think the whole concept of art out of perceived insanity is so interesting and there's so much depth there and it's, there's, there's a lot to go with. I loved it when I originally came up with this concept.

[00:12:14] I was, like, I am crazy for, like, trying to choreograph this dance with these giant piles of--these girls are gonna dance on and I'm going to figure out a way to make it work. And then I just happened to find an artist who society calls crazy and she just happens to find a way to make it work. And so to me, there was such a like, cool--I felt so connected to her because, yeah, it was such a, it was such an interesting dynamic that we shared. But I think it's interesting now, and she still lives in a mental institution, and the only time she leaves there isto go to her studio to paint. She is still creating all of these installations and all of these amazing sculptures and paintings, and I just thought it was so--ever since then, I've been so captivated by her because-- first of all, she is an amazing dresser. She has all these fun, colorful linens and she's kinda kooky. And as artists, we love kooky.

[00:13:09] I think, that was one of those moments where I started with this concept of this idea and just knew that somehow it would come together. And as an artist, I think sometimes we do start with the ending and then figure out a way to make it work. Am I right?

[00:13:25] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:13:25] Yes. Oh yes.

[00:13:27] Bryant Williams: [00:13:27] And I just, I loved it like it how things come together then become an organic part of the process, you know, that it's not so, so structured and contrived in a way. It's very, it's very organic and how that progression happens. And I loved that, you know, like that there's, again, art inspiration comes from everywhere.

[00:13:48]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:13:48] Absolutely. And so do you, when you choreograph, do you have, like, a kind of a set process that you follow or is it always different depending on what's inspiring you or whether you have, like, parameter--or what's it like for you?

[00:14:06] Bryant Williams: [00:14:06] It's very interesting how I choreograph and a lot of people would not, would not go about it this way. But I'm such an emotional person, which I hate to say, but that's okay...

[00:14:18] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:14:18] Absolutely

[00:14:19] Bryant Williams: [00:14:19] That I have to--I cannot choreograph something that I'm not 100% invested in. and so for me, a lot of times I will create a concept of what I want. So I understand where we start, where we finish. And the middle to me should be a reflection of the process. I only choreograph what I plan to do that day, and the reason being is--I could choreograph a whole piece in my home, but then can get in the studio and put it on those dancers, and that's not what I want. And so there's a lot of ways that, like, I will take different sections of choreography, put them together in the moment, and then I always know that there's a way that they're going to go together. I don't ever know how, but I know that it will get there in the end because if it is a truly organic part of myself, and if I know where I want the story to end up, then I know every chapter of sorts in between. I might have to move some around, but building that vocabulary of, of sections depending on where I am that day in my life.

[00:15:21] You know, what do I think about the topic? You know, what do I think about this piece today might be different than what it was yesterday. And so, I always say I'm just a half a step ahead of the dancers and I kind of like it that way. I feed off of that energy. And that pushes me. Like if we get to the end of the phrase that I'm tired and we still have more time, like, okay, what else can we do? Like what else can we explore? I love that. I know it sounds crazy, but a lot of people probably-- there's some people that are super prepared with choreography and like have everything written down and blocked and set. I do not cause I feel like it should be, it should be an emotional process, you know? And that is with the dancers as well.

[00:15:57] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:15:57] Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Well, it's fun as a dancer to have that kind of style where you almost get--maybe a little more, kind of, insight into the process of somebody setting a piece on you, which is kind of interesting. And me being such a planner, I mean, I've, I've choreographed in both ways, but there are a lot of times where I'll just come in and like--"Here's, here's the piece," and we'll just, like, knock it out, you know, in a day or something. But, I love the creativity that can develop when you, when you do something a little more organically, like you were saying--okay, so we ran out of material for today, but maybe let's just experiment for a little while and see what happens. You know, that can create the most magic that way sometimes.

[00:16:43] Bryant Williams: [00:16:43] Absolutely, and a lot of times in the middle of that, like I could create a phrase and then in the middle I would be like, "Oh, well let's add something here. It's missing something here." You know? And I like that process. I also felt as a dancer, I've worked with a lot of choreographers and I, the ones I didn't like as much were the ones that treated me solely as a vessel for their agenda. You know, I also want it to be a part of that, if that makes sense. And so there were some choreographers that I worked with that, you know, didn't care what I thought--or not that they should-- but didn't care about me as a person dancing their work.

[00:17:23] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:17:23] Yeah.

[00:17:24] Bryant Williams: [00:17:24] And I never want my dancers to feel that way.

[00:17:27] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:17:27] Yeah, that's good. You care, no, that's--you care. And it's good because once you have those experiences that you don't-- that you didn't love, we'll just put it that way--then it's, it's helpful cause it helps you grow as, you know, as a creator as well. So that's, that's cool. And I think there is something to that too. And you know, because we're all artists. And in theory, you would hope that the process would be more, you know, collaborative, at least a little bit more because you're an artist just as much as, you know, the choreographer is an artist, and so hopefully it's just a meeting of minds and bodies and creating this, you know, inspirational piece.

[00:18:15] Bryant Williams: [00:18:15] So I have this-- if I can tell you another funny story.

[00:18:18] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:18:18] Oh, please do.

[00:18:19]Bryant Williams: [00:18:19] When I was dancing with Gus Giordano Jazz Dance Chicago, the world's largest jazz company-- when I was dancing for them, we had a new piece set--it was my second year in the company, and choreographer, Ron De Jesus came in, and set a piece and--I, we were all ready to get up and start dancing, and he took us into his studio and he turned the lights off and he told us to lay down on the floor. And he gave us a piece of paper and a pencil. And I was like, "What the heck are we doing?" And he said, "Okay, put your pencil on the paper, close your eyes." And he said, "Without lifting your pencil off the paper, draw your life story. Draw your lifeline." And keep in mind, I was 18 or 19 when this happened. I had not a lot of life story

[00:19:12] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:19:12] Oh my word!

[00:19:14] Bryant Williams: [00:19:14] And he turned the lights off and he put this really soothing music on and we were there for five minutes and I had no clue what I was doing. So I was just doodling around, just drawing circles. And I just remember I kept thinking, like, I do not get it, but I'm too embarrassed to ask questions so I'm just going to go with it.

[00:19:37] We stop, and we go back upstairs to the main studio and he said, "Okay, now I want you to imagine this studio is that piece of paper. Go to the spot in the studio where you started your lifeline on the paper." And I'm like, "Okay, I can do that." So I go to like the general area and he said, "Okay, I want you to walk your lifeline." And that's when I thought, "Oh no, I completely failed because I'm just going to be walking in random circles!"

[00:20:08] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:20:08] Oh my word.

[00:20:09] Bryant Williams: [00:20:09] And I'm there until other people started moving because I wasn't sure, like, what I was supposed to be doing, and then I just aimlessly started walking around because, again, it was too embarrassed to ask the question. Might as well just keep going. So we did that for about 15 to 20 minutes. I--no lie--like we walked for a long time.

[00:20:28]And, keep in mind who was videotaping this whole thing. This is so odd. Oh, and after that 15, 20 minutes, he said, "Okay, put your papers down. I want you to go back to that same spot in the room that you started your lifeline." And so we all did. And he put on some music and he said, "Okay, now I want you to dance your lifeline." And I was like, "Okay, this is no better."

[00:20:59] And so we started at improving our lifeline, and so this was now step three of the process, and we're doing this for like another 20 minutes. And what was interesting is as I started improv, and at first I was just arbitrarily moving around, like trying to fit in with what everyone else is doing. And then I kept noticing that I kept going back to the same spot in the room.

[00:21:24] You know, and I would go away from it and then I would go back to the same spot in the room. And to me, that really clicked and resonated with me that sometimes in life we keep going back to the same stuff. Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe we should. Maybe it's just part of life. But to me that was comfortable. And the one thing I got out of doing that is, like, I always kept going back to the comfortable, to the same spot, to the same mess. And I was like, I remember thinking, and this is like, what, an hour into this now? And I'm like, "Oh, maybe I did get it! And I just had no idea. And this went on for the whole day. And so we walk in the next day and there's a big whiteboard up and there were like two or three TVs in the room, with VHS tapes in them.

[00:22:10] There were our names on the board and it had a time next to it, like a time code, and he said, "Okay. I want you to go find your name, your time, and then go to one of those TVs. Scroll to that part of the video, learn your phrase, and then you're going to teach it to all of us. So all of us took that day, you know, learning those phrases and really coming up with them.

[00:22:33] And out of those phrases, he took our lifelines and he put them into this piece, and his--in his voice. And so it was a really interesting process because we created the vocabulary for it, you know, based on our life's experiences. And it's so funny thinking about it now, cause I've never asked anyone else if they were just as confused as I was.

[00:22:53]I don't know to this day if they really had a clue. But, you know, what I think is amazing about that is, how he could take so much of that, so much of that that made us us and translate that movement and that vocabulary into his voice, into his piece. Still to this day--the piece was called"Prey." P. R. E. Y. Like preying on something, and it's still one of the pieces that, Gus Giordano Jazz Dance Chicago is known for, because it is such a powerful piece. And I remember when we premiered that piece and the end came and the standing ovation was nuts, cause--and we had no idea like what the audience reaction was going to be! What I think is interesting is, you know, most people don't know that, that story behind creating it, but you know, that was a choreographer that definitely worked in a different way, but in a way that still resonates with me. It was a cool piece.

[00:23:51] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:23:51] Yeah, that is really cool. Well, thank you. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing all these amazing stories. I just love hearing people talk about, you know, experiences that helped shape them and inspire them. And that's just awesome. So thank you.

[00:24:09]Bryant Williams: [00:24:09] And you know what I'll say is like in this time especially, I just want to encourage people, go out and find an artist in a different medium than you, know, go out and find a painter, or go out and find a singer/songwriter. Like that's been the coolest thing for me is really, going out there and celebrating other people's art. You know, I think especially now, go find an amazing artists and send them a comment and say, you're awesome. You know, keep going.

[00:24:35] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:24:35] Yes, yes.

[00:24:37] Bryant Williams: [00:24:37] We've got the time. I mean now's the time more than ever to go be inspired by new things in art.

[00:24:44] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:24:44] Yeah, you're right. And everyone needs that encouragement. I mean, even if you are a, quote unquote, "accomplished artist," you're still going to have moments of complete insecurity when you're premiering something new or just, yeah. It's so important. So I have a couple of questions for you, if that's okay. Okay. So how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:25:11] Bryant Williams: [00:25:11] Art to me is inspiration. Art to me is vital. I think that's the best--where art is vital and art is a form of expression meant for the world to share in a mutual experience.

[00:25:26]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:25:26] Yeah, I love that. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist.

[00:25:32]Bryant Williams: [00:25:32] Artists needs to be truly authentic. You know, in this day and age, you know, whether people like that or not, it's--art is subjective--and be authentically you.

[00:25:45] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:25:45] Love it. Okay. And then, for the last question I have, I'll kind of explain my terms because it might sound a little funny, but, do you personally-- just a personal opinion--feel that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And to give some context to that. So exclusive kind of referring to: an artist creates something, puts it out there, but doesn't necessarily put much of an explanation behind it. It could be something that's not even titled or you're just, you don't have the context of, maybe what inspired the artist or kind of the reasoning behind what they did. Versus inclusive being artist trying to share with you more about either what inspired the piece or why they created it, or basically giving the audience, more context.

[00:26:37]Bryant Williams: [00:26:37] Yes. To all of the above. As an artist, like, there's so many different phases of--oh, art that you go through life. You know, even if you don't classify yourself as an artist, like, there's so many ways each one of us creates in our life. And there are some times that you want to go shout that from the rooftops and tell everybody what it is. And there are some times where you want it to be super internal and it's more of a cathartic experience for you. And I think they can live in the same person. You know, they definitely lived within me, you know, and I think what's so cool about, the artist's opinion in, in sharing something or not sharing something or--decision not opinion--decision to share, is such a personal thing for them.

[00:27:26] And it's something that I think a lot of artists spend time thinking about. Am I willing to open myself up to share this, you know, or is this something that's more of an intimate experience for myself? I've definitely created works that I was so proud of that I was like, it's about "this!" And I want everyone to know. And there are certain works that I've choreographed, based on people in my life based on experiences in my life that maybe I don't wanna share.

[00:27:54] But I think the great thing about artists, there's a universal experience that everyone has when they see it. You know? And that's why I think art is so vital that, I think both are valid in a way. Do I think there should be more of either way? I know this is a horrible answer, but I don't, I don't know: I think that's all up to the artist and I think it's up to-- think people respond either way. The cool thing is that you get different responses, but I think that's kind of cool too.

[00:28:22]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:28:22] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I asked that question cause I get, a variety of responses and I always just sort of love hearing different perspectives on it because. You know, like art, everyone's opinion on this is subjective, and I think that, you know, it's, it's what you, it's what you make of it and get from it ...

[00:28:39] Bryant Williams: [00:28:39] I think it depends on where you are in your life. Everything is ever changing. I think after, you know, this unique shared experience that we're all in, I'm excited to see what, what comes out of this in the art world. I'm excited to see what people create during this time and, you know, immediately after this time. Like, what an interesting time that we get to live in. And if there's one silver lining, you know, the amount of really personal art that I think is going to be created is mind blowing to me. I mean, I'm excited to see it. I'm excited to see what, what people's experiences were that are different than mine.

[00:29:17]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:29:17] Yes. Yeah. Well, and I think you just struck upon a really good, really good point about art in general is that people's experiences are different. And one of the most wonderful things that art can do is share those differences, in a truly unique and beautiful way that help us to relate to each other more so than if, you know, we were just talking about it even.

[00:29:40]Bryant Williams: [00:29:40] I agree a hundred percent, you know? And you never know when that's going to happen or what that's going to be. You know? You just have to be open to whatever that is.

[00:29:49]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:29:49] Yeah. Love it. Love it. Well, thank you so much, Bryant. You are awesome. Really appreciate you being here.

[00:29:57] Bryant Williams: [00:29:57] I talk a lot, I'm sorry. I've got a lot to say.

[00:30:00] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:30:00] No, no. Yeah, never apologize. I love it. No, it's wonderful. And so if people want to connect with you, are, do you have, some ongoing things that, that you--or any upcoming projects you want to talk about or share? Any way that we can keep in touch?

[00:30:20]Bryant Williams: [00:30:20] I teach a really, really important, and I use this word again--vital --dance movement called BeMoved Dance, and this was created by a mentor of mine, Sherry Zunker, who wanted a dance experience for people of all skill levels, but really designed for former dancers who want to be in class, but our bodies don't want to do eight pirouettes and a battement to a split, which...

[00:30:43] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:30:43] What are you talking about? Don't we always want to?

[00:30:43]Bryant Williams: [00:30:43] I want to; I just wouldn't get up. I would be permanently on the floor.

[00:30:51] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:30:51] Right.

[00:30:53]Bryant Williams: [00:30:53] So BeMoved has really allowed me a space to find peace and joy, and just space to remember the things that we love, you know, being a part of that shared community. So I'm just about to start teaching BeMoved classes online-- which I'm so thankful for the opportunity to continue to share in this community in a new way. And I'll be honest, I'm still getting used to this new way that we're doing it. But, any opportunity we can to share that community, I think is important.

[00:31:25]And especially with the dance movement, like BeMoved that is so vital to keeping that space in our lives for joy and for happiness. And now, they say you can't pour from an empty cup and, you know, finding those things in your life, whether it's BeMove or yoga, or meditation--find the things in your life that fill your cup, to get you through this time and to do all that.

[00:31:47]And you can follow that at @BeMoved Bryant-- are all of my classes for that. Yeah. So that'll be, I, there's a lot that we're working on.

[00:31:57]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:31:57] Awesome. I love it. Well, good. Yeah, and I just have to say, I have taken Bryant's class. I took it regularly back when he was still in Kansas City, and first of all, he's an awesome instructor in general, but the BeMoved experience is really special. And, I kind of came at it at a time where I couldn't take regular technique classes, because they, they just, they hurt my body a lot. I was coming out of some injuries and so BeMoved was my way to get back moving and actually do a class where I wasn't, like, miserable at the end.

[00:32:32] I was completely the opposite. I was just, you know, filled back up with energy and joy, and it's just so much fun. So I would say as a recipient or a student, yeah, these classes are awesome. So, once all the craziness is over and you're not, necessarily having to take everything virtually, definitely try to find a class in your area because it's for everyone, truly, and it is so fun.

[00:32:59] Bryant Williams: [00:32:59] I mean, you leave class and there's just such a, there's such a beautiful sense of energy to it, which is cool. And I hope you all get to experience it wherever you live. BeMovedDance.com has a list of all the classes, all over the country. There's some people, even in Australia that teach teach it, in the UK, in Canada. So there's lot of BeMoved teachers around. Yeah, and until then, take some of mine online.

[00:33:26] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:33:26] Exactly. Exactly. It is fun. Well, again, thank you so much, Bryant, and thank you for your contribution of art to the world, and the fact that you're still contributing and creating and, and, you know, teaching the next generation through the dance intensive and just everything you do. I'm a firm believer that art--I'm biased--but art makes the world better. And I just really appreciate anyone who's willing to share art with, with the world. So thank you.

[00:33:58] Bryant Williams: [00:33:58] I agree with you 100%, and thank you for what you're doing. And this is an awesome platform for people to continue to inspire and get inspiration and continue moving that forward. You're amazing.

[00:34:10]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:34:10] Aww, you're sweet. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, so much for joining us and definitely get in contact with Bryant through those different avenues that he has, to continue dancing and encourage other people to do so, and we will catch you next time.

[00:34:29] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:34:39]Hey there, Artfully Told listeners, I wanted to share a really amazing resource with you that I think you will find invaluable. This website is called Artist's Edge. The mission of Artist's Edge is to raise the level of business intelligence, life skills, and emotional intelligence for people who are committed to expressing their passions, creativity, and unique genius through their careers, helping them reach higher levels of success with ease. Artist's Edge is the education arm of Debra Russell Coaching, and she is an awesome person who uses all of her business background and skills to really assist artists become who they want to be. She has a bunch of different courses that you can go through as well as personalized coaching. If you are a wannabe artist that wants to turn their passion into a career, or is an already established artist that wants to take their career to the next level, she is the person to talk to you about this, so please follow the link in my comments and show notes, and we will catch you next time.

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

View Details

In this episode, I welcome my first guest, Ashley Taylor! Ashley hails from New York City, and shares her story about a time when she realized that art has the power to rewrite and redeem narratives.

Links to get in touch with Ashley Taylor: https://www.facebook.com/ashleytaylorcreative/ | https://ashleytaylordance.wixsite.com/ashleytaylordance

Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 001 - Ashley Taylor

Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: [00:00:06] "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12]Roman: [00:00:12] "All I can do is put my heart in to the world.""

[00:00:23] Elna: [00:00:23] "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful."

[00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:31] Hello and welcome to Artfully Told. I am Lindsey and today I'm super delighted that my guest is actually my very own sister. She's coming to us live from New York city, which is super cool, and her name is Ashley Taylor. Ashley, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:50] Ashley Taylor: [00:00:50] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[00:00:52] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:00:52] Awesome. Well, could you start by just sharing a little bit about your background and your art interests.

[00:00:58] Ashley Taylor: [00:00:58] Sure. So as mentioned, I currently live in New York City with my husband and my son and I have been interested in all forms of art for as long as I can remember going back to being a kid and drawing fun in my sketchpad. And I've been dabbling in different forms of art ever since I have been a dancer since I was four years old and continuing to do that on a professional level in different freelance projects right now. And I also am a choreographer and I love writing. That's probably my favorite way to express myself and process things is through writing. So I'm trying to get into that more and working on a few different projects at the moment. Other than that I enjoy different crafts and, going to art museums and just appreciating art in all of its forms.

[00:01:51] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:01:51] Wonderful. Yes, you are quite the well-rounded artist, I would say. Awesome. And I know you have some stories to share or a little bit about a meaningful encounter with art, so I'd love if you would share a little bit with us.

[00:02:06] Ashley Taylor: [00:02:06] Yeah. So. It's hard to narrow down one meaningful encounter with art because I've had so many. But the one that came to mind first was actually watching a film called "Saving Mr. Banks," which is the story of the making of the "Mary Poppins" movie. And it's kind of about how Walt Disney convinced P.L. Travers, the author of the Mary Poppins books, to let him make an adaptation of her story. And she resisted for a long time. And when she finally gave in, she was extremely particular about how the story was told on film. And one of the things that she kept harping on was that the character of the father in the story, Mr. Banks, needed to be a kind character with a redemptive arc in his story. And this was extremely important to her. And as we watch the film, we understand that the reason for that is because her own father, while he was a good dad to her and helped develop her imagination, and she loved him and admired him, he was an alcoholic and did not have a happy ending.

[00:03:21]And, he really let the family down because his own demons that he was dealing with. And so we understand that what she did through the Mary Poppins story was tried to redeem her own father in the art that she made. And to me, that concept was just absolutely fascinating and profound because I realized that through the art we make, we choose how we remember someone or how we look at a situation in retrospect that has happened to us. And you know, a lot of us think that stories or art come out of our heads and are just completely fictitious or maybe loosely based on events, but not necessarily a true depiction of what happened-- and that's true. But to me, just the idea that art is a way we can process things that have happened to us in a healthy way and even rewrite the ending to what we wished it had been is such a powerful concept to me. So that really stuck with me, to the ability to just reframe the narrative of life through what we make.

[00:04:32]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:04:32] Oh, I like that. Reframe the narrative. Yeah, that's incredibly powerful. And do you feel like you have had an experience like that, just an experience with something that you've translated into art and then had a different frame? Like you've reframed it yourself?

[00:04:49] Ashley Taylor: [00:04:49] Yeah, I think there are. So I'm going to answer that generally and specifically. Generally speaking, I am a huge believer that there's always a silver lining of some kind in every situation, and oftentimes it's very difficult to see it and you might not see it until years later when you look back and realize how an experience shaped you for better or for worse, and it's valid.

[00:05:17] If it was for worse, that's still good to know. That's a valuable thing to be able to say. That that was bad and that changed me for the worst. I mean, we need to acknowledge that too. Anyway, so to be able to see the good in a situation, or at least the value in a situation--let me say that.

[00:05:37] So the value in a situation that we go through that's rough, I think, is an incredible gift, and really a vital skill because if we look back on things and only see the negative about them or how hard it was or how unfair it was, we're just going to become bitter and resentful and have a very dark outlook on life.

[00:05:58]And similarly in art, I mean, a lot of people make art that is very realistic perhaps, but it's dark and gritty and there are no happy endings. And, and you know, that is true there. There are aspects of truth in art that is dark and does not have a redemptive arc because not all of real life stories have an obvious good aspect to them.

[00:06:24]However, I do believe that good comes out of every situation. I think that is something that God has the ability to turn any situation around, or to bring learning or some kind of beauty out of it. So all that to say, generally speaking, I always try to have an element of hope in whatever I make. If it's a dance, even if it's sort of an abstract one or if it's about a tough subject, or if it's a story that I'm writing, I always try to have some element of, okay, where is the light in the darkness? Where's the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak? Or maybe the tunnel doesn't end, but maybe there's something about being in it that shapes us for the better. Right?

[00:07:06]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:07:06] Yeah, I love that.

[00:07:07]Ashley Taylor: [00:07:07] I mean, there are cases where it's valid to make art that does not have a happy ending, but you realize how it changed you. So for example, right now I have this idea which has not come to fruition yet, but this idea about a song that inspired me, which is about a relationship that ended, and I was thinking, "How would I choreograph a dance to this song that had some element of hope or, or truth to it?"

[00:07:31] Not just, look, here's a relationship that ended. Now we're sad. I mean that in real life, we don't need that in art. Right? So I was thinking, what if in this, in this piece, it starts out with the guy is the one who's been abandoned and he's dancing out his disappointment about this.

[00:07:49]And in the end, she realizes what she did and regrets it, but it's too late because he moved on. And now that's not exactly hopeful except in the sense that she has now realized, "You know what? I made a mistake. This was my fault. It's too late with this particular relationship, but maybe in the future I will have learned from this and can change how I am acting as a person, in a future relationship," if that makes sense.

[00:08:17] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:08:17] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:19] Ashley Taylor: [00:08:19] Anyway, so that's just, that's just one example of something I was thinking about recently. But to answer your question, your original question for specifically, I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent here, but, I had a very intense job for, for several years and with a very complicated employer, and I generally had a good relationship with this person, but, there were moments that were very dysfunctional. And I heard a lot of stories from other people about even worst encounters they'd had. And so I, I am again, remembering that I can choose how to remember this person. Most people that I know who were also in the same job, have only negative things to say.

[00:09:04]And that is a very valid response to some of the things that happened to them. However, for me, I can never look at the situation only negatively because I did grow and learn so much from, from the job, from my employer, and I feel like the fair thing to do for me to process this out would be to write about the bad things that are true.

[00:09:26]And also the good things that are true and what I got out of this situation, what I got out of my relationship with this person and that I can choose to remember her by, you know, for example, that time in the office when I told her, "I'm not sure if I can do this anymore," and how understanding and just sympathetic, kind, she was with me during that time.

[00:09:47]And that's something that maybe not everybody experienced with her, but I did. And so for me, I would rather remember her by that moment than by something else where it was a bad time for her, or we had a disagreement or something. I would rather say those things happened. I acknowledged they were bad and they were hard. But I can choose instead to, to look back on this person and say, you know, but I do remember that one time she was kind.

[00:10:13]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:10:13] Yeah. and there's a lot of power to that.

[00:10:15]Ashley Taylor: [00:10:15] Yeah, and freedom too. I mean, who wants to go through life constantly remembering only the bad things about your family or, or, you know, and we all have those, but, but in ours, I think it's just an amazing opportunity to remember the good, and then choose to be changed by that.

[00:10:31] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:10:31] Hm. I like that. And I think it's exactly like what you were talking about where you could probably go crazy, or at least feel pretty depressed if you really chose to only remember the bad. So I think there's a lot of transformative power that you have in writing about this experience. And the other thing that really stood out to me was I liked the fact that you're going to be including both the good and the bad, but you talked about both things being true. And I think it's so important to place a lot of value on honesty. And if you're going to be honest on one side, the bad, then it's almost only fair to also be honest about the good.

[00:11:12] Ashley Taylor: [00:11:12] Right.

[00:11:12]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:11:12] Yeah. That's, that's awesome.

[00:11:15]Ashley Taylor: [00:11:15] Yeah. Cause I think it's easy to, when we were telling our story to somebody else, we're trying, we're all coming into it with a kind of, hoped for outcome. Right? So, if I tell you my story, I'm kind of trying to influence you to think about it the way that I thought about it, right? So I might leave out the parts that don't support my point right.

[00:11:34]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:11:34] Yeah!

[00:11:35] Ashley Taylor: [00:11:35] And I mean, in art, you have to do that, right? You do need to edit down to the representative moments that supports what you're talking about. However, it's also important to remember that no situation is black and white. Almost no situation is black and white. And there's many more layers to human relationships or human situations than what we can see or, Then, oh, this was a good person. This was a bad person like that. That's, that's very shallow-- not, not the way life is. Life is messy. We're all, we're all human. So, to have the chance to explore that in art and try to see the deeper meaning behind it is just a really cool opportunity, I think.

[00:12:19] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:12:19] Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It's great perspective too. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I just have a couple questions about art in general, if you don't mind me asking--how do you personally define art or what is art to you?

[00:12:37] Ashley Taylor: [00:12:37] Wow. Okay. What is art? To me, art is way for us to make sense of the world that we live in at its most basic level. I think we can do that a number of different ways. For one thing, sometimes when I think of art, I think of still life painting or landscape painting. That's like a very basic example of art. Or even going back to like the cave paintings, which is little stick animals, right? That's a way of humans who are saying, " Here's what I see. I'm going to try to copy it or represent it."

[00:13:13] And that's a very simple, almost primitive way of trying to make sense of the world of the world that we live in. So we can start there, or we can go all the way to very abstract paintings or dances or music, which sometimes are so abstract that the audience doesn't even understand what the inspiration was, but that is somebody trying to make sense of the world in their own way.

[00:13:37]I'm sure even trying to say, I can't make sense of the world--life is meaningless, so I'm going to make this hard to tell what it means art about it, right, that's still representing something. It's our way of trying to grapple with what we're seeing and experiencing. So that was a long winded answer. I hope that made sense.

[00:13:58] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:13:58] It was great. No, I, I'm putting you on the spot here. That was great. I love that. Okay. What do you think is the most important role of an artist?

[00:14:11]Ashley Taylor: [00:14:11] I wrote about this one time and I'm going to try to summarize what I said. I believe that the role of an artist is to observe. Observe and express. So observation is a very important part of, if you're the landscape painter, you have to spend a lot of time looking at the landscape that you're going to paint. And you have to observe the details in ways that you may not. Ordinarily, if you're just looking at this picture, but trying to put it down on paper, you have to consider all of this at great detail.

[00:14:43] And so a metaphor that I love is -- as an artist drawing or painting or doing something visual like this, you have to always ask, "Where are the shadows in what I'm drawing, where the shadow is falling." And that tells you: "Where is the light and where's the light coming from to cast these shadows?"

[00:15:05] And so when I expand that into sort of a metaphor for what the artist is doing, I think, I think that's what we are supposed to be doing personally is like, okay, I'm looking at life or I'm looking at the situation. This is like exactly what I said earlier. Where are the shadows? Where are the dark things, the bad things?

[00:15:25]Right. But then if, if these are the shadows, okay, there's gotta be light coming from somewhere because shadows don't exist without light. I mean, if there was no light, you'd be looking at a blank black piece of paper. And we all know life is more than that . Anyway, so all that to say, I think the role of the artist is to say, "Where's the darkness, where are the shadows, where's the light? How do I represent both fairly?" And then let you draw your own conclusions. Like I can infuse my conclusions into what I make. But in the end, art is up for interpretation. It's usually subjective. And so, you may look at my story. And say, well, the darkness is way more important than the light there.

[00:16:13] The shadows, you know, outweigh the light in this. But somebody else might say, wow, look at the way the sun is shining. So that's what I would say to be a careful observer of the world and to draw out where the good things are as well as the bad.

[00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:16:31] I love that. That's awesome. Okay. I have one final question. Okay. So do you think that art--and the words I'm going to use for it are--I'll explain-- but do you think that art should be exclusive or inclusive? So as far as being exclusive, does that look like an artist who produces a piece of work and does not share the intentions behind it. So for example, going to a museum where you see a painting and perhaps it's a little more abstract and it's not clear necessarily what the artist was after.

[00:17:10] Ashley Taylor: [00:17:10] Right.

[00:17:10] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:17:10] Versus an inclusive approach of the artists always including people in their process as far as sharing the reasoning behind it or the inspiration, or how do you feel about all that?

[00:17:24] Ashley Taylor: [00:17:24] That's an interesting question. I would probably tend to fall somewhere in the middle of either extreme. So on the one hand, I think sometimes we can overexplain art. And say, for example, if I'm choreographing a dance, there's usually a reason behind at least some of my choices in how many people did I pick? What were the patterns? What was a gesture that appeared? Usually that has something to do with my theme, but if I sat there and explained all of that to you, it'd be a little overkill and kind of take out some of the fun of, of you, the audience trying to get that for yourself, right? It's like reading a book versus watching a movie.

[00:18:05] When you read a book, you have to use your imagination. I think we can fall into overexplaining. the other hand, if I, here's a great example. It was like when you see an abstract painting and you're like, okay, I don't really get anything out of this. I wonder what the title is. And then it's like untitled number seven.

[00:18:25]So that's going a little too far, right? At least give it a title--even if you won't explain anything else--at least give it a title. Maybe say, " Cloudless Day," or something where I can be like, okay, that's interesting. Now how do I see that in this painting or in this work?

[00:18:41]At least that gives me something to kind of go off of. So I would say if we can fall somewhere in the middle of being inclusive in the sense that we hint at least at what we're trying to say without necessarily spelling the whole thing out, because that takes some of the joy of it for the audience or the viewer.

[00:19:01] Because I think we've all had that moment where the title of a book, for example, suddenly becomes clear what it's talking about while you're reading the book. And it's like, yes, I get it, triumphant moment. And it makes you think about things in a deeper way and appreciate it more. And I wouldn't want to take that away from people.

[00:19:19]

[00:19:19] Lindsey Dinneen: [00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:21] Ashley Taylor: [00:19:21] Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:22]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:19:22] Well, thank you so very much for joining me today. That was awesome. I feel very inspired. Thanks so much for sharing with us and for creating art. I mean, I'm an artist and I'm biased, but I also do feel that art is really important for the world, and I just appreciate everyone who contributes, even if they're only contributing for themselves. But I just, I think there's a lot of value in that. So thank you on behalf of the world.

[00:19:55] Ashley Taylor: [00:19:55] No, absolutely. It's great to have an outlet to talk about it in, in this way, because I know there are a lot of likeminded people out there and, it's just nice to be able to discuss our thoughts about why art is important. So thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.

[00:20:13]Lindsey Dinneen: [00:20:13] My pleasure. Well, that is all for today. Thank you so much for joining us and we will catch you next time.

[00:20:24] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much and I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

[00:20:34] Hey, Artfully Told listeners, I'm excited to share with you a little bit about one of my very favorite resources for artists. It's a website called Arteza. They have incredible products, but what makes this company really unique is that they have supplies that are affordable to creators with every budget. So whether you're just starting out or dabbling or you, or you do have that budget available to you, they do have options for every budget level. They provide the tools, but you steer the way. Literally you can access hundreds of thousands of high quality unique products through their website, and right now they are offering a promo code to receive 8% off of any purchase and you can access the link and the promo code in my comments and show notes.

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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In this episode, I introduce the podcast, letting you know its mission, format, frequency, and a little about me!

Links referenced: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | elevateartskc@gmail.com

Schedule your interview with me! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview

SHOW NOTES:

Episode 000 - Introduction to Artfully Told

Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art.

[00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life."

[00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart into the world."

[00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful. "

[00:00:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to the very first episode of Artfully Told. I am so excited about this launch, and so thrilled that you are here with me.

[00:00:43] Thank you so much for joining. My name is Lindsey Dinneen and I am excited to share these stories with you. We have brought together so many different people, artists of all kinds, creatives of all kinds to just share their stories about their inspiration or what prompted them to start in the first place, or funny things that happened along the way-- just sharing life together. And I think it's absolutely incredible, and I am so excited to share with you the mission statement that we have. And so at Artfully Told, we know that art is a vital aspect of everyone's lives. Everyone has a story about how art has impacted them, whether they are professional artists, amateur dabblers, or simply anyone who has seen a movie, read a book or attended a live performance. Whether inspiring or humorous, sad or sweet, these stories have the power to connect us and to transform the way we think about and experience art. We strive to make our podcast accessible and welcoming to people of all backgrounds and involvement with art. Together, we can create a community of people who value art in all of its forms and enjoy having their days be Artfully Told.

[00:02:04] And on that note, if you have a story to share, I would love to hear it. So I do have a whole wonderful set of episodes ready and waiting to launch for you. But in the meantime, I'm still recording and I will be recording, recording, recording as we go along. So if you have a story to share or you know somebody who has a story to share it and you think, "Hey, that person should definitely tell their story," please feel free to connect them to me. I will be posting all the different ways that you can connect with the community of Artfully Told listeners and with me personally in the comments and show notes. But for right now, always know that Facebook is a great option to connect. It's facebook.com/artfullytold. Or you can always email me at elevateartskc@gmail.com and that's E L E V A T E artskc@gmail.com.

[00:03:10] I'd also love and welcome your feedback, so if there's something that particularly stands out to you that either good or bad or indifferent, please don't hesitate to reach out and let me know. I value having your feedback. I value knowing what connects with you, what doesn't connect with you, even ways that we can improve and make this better. Because ultimately this is for you as a listener, and I want it to be the best experience that it can be for you.

[00:03:40] So just so you know, as far as our frequency and format is going this is an interview based podcast. And so every single time, you'll hear me chatting with somebody who is either an artist or a non-artist--it doesn't matter, but who has a story to share about art. So you'll always hear some stories from them directly, but then you'll also have a chance to hear them answer some questions about art. I ask the same three questions every single time to all of my guests, and it's really interesting because they have such dynamic answers to what I'm asking, and it's subjective, just like art is, and so it's cool to hear how different perspectives are.

[00:04:26] So in the future, we'll have an episode every week, maybe eventually more than one per week. But to start, we'll be releasing new episodes every Monday. And to start at this point as you might have already noticed, we have this episode, this intro episode, and then we also have two more. So you can kind of get an idea of what the podcast is all about, and feel free to subscribe. Please do subscribe, and if it inspires you, please share with a friend or two. That would be absolutely amazing, and I cannot wait to see you in this community. Like the Facebook page, and we'll start gathering this community together, because I think there's a lot of us who really do care about sharing art and sharing our stories about art. And I just can't wait to interact with all of you.

[00:05:18] So like I said before, my name's Lindsey. I am an artist; I grew up dancing. My mom introduced me to ballet when I was very young by watching "The Nutcracker," and I fell in love with it for the costumes, naturally. I was enrolled in a summer camp shortly thereafter, and I basically never stopped dancing. I went to college and earned my degree in dance, and then right after that started dancing professionally, and four years into that professional career, I decided to launch my own company. That is VidaDance, and I am the artistic director of that company. We perform all over the Kansas City area and have traveled to St. Louis to perform as well.

[00:06:02] And then just some fun things I do on the side--every once in a while I play piano, although,it's been awhile and I'm not that good. And then I also liked to sing, but don't have any formal training in it. But I do enjoy expressing myself through singing. I also write, and I cook, and I've recently been dabbling in painting, which has been a lot of fun. Never thought it was something I could do. And I'm not sure it is still, but I absolutely love it, and so I do spend some time doing that every once in a while.

[00:06:37] And this podcast is really my passion project. I am so excited about it because I know that it's going to sound cliche, but I truly believe that art is for everyone and that art should be accessible to everyone. And I never want somebody to walk away from a situation and think, "I did not get that. At all. Why are we even here at this art museum?" Or, "I don't understand this show." As much as I possibly can, my goal with this podcast is to demystify art, right? To connect us together with stories that help us maybe understand where the artist is coming from or what inspired them or. Maybe it's just to help us realize that we're all humans and what seems glamorous to one person is actually a lot of work to that other person, you know?

[00:07:30] And just to be able to share life together in that way, and help us realize and recognize the value and the impact and the joy that arts can bring and do bring to so many lives. And, really, it doesn't matter whether or not you feel that you're an artist per se, or you would take on that title-- you are creative inherently, and you are also somebody who consumes art, whether you really feel like you do or not.

[00:08:00] I mean, like I mentioned earlier in the mission statement, reading a book, watching a movie, if you've done any of those things. You're participating in art. And that's kind of my whole point, is to try to make sure that all of us realize and recognize not only the value of art, but how it can change us, how it can move us, how it can elevate us, right?

[00:08:22] And I just am very passionate about this and so excited to share these stories with you. So, I don't want to take up any more of your time cause I'd really love for you to dive into some of the episodes and just enjoy this podcast. So again, feel free to reach out to me anytime you with you have questions. If you have a story to share, if you have feedback, I would love, love to hear from you. And until that time, I hope your days will be Artfully Told.

Intro & Outro Music Credits:

Bad Ideas (distressed) by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3412-bad-ideas-distressed- License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Artfully Told: Recent Episodes