How'd You Get That Job?: Recent Episodes
Claremont Graduate University
Join us as we pull back the curtain to get a behind-the-scenes look at the unique, transdisciplinary, and inspiring careers of Claremont Graduate University alumni.
What is it like being a woman in STEM? Listen in as Juanita Dawson (MS, Information Systems & Technology, ’05) shares her journey of going from the only woman in her math and sciences classes to becoming the director of cybersecurity and compliance at Raytheon Technologies.
What happens when you combine history with technology? Matthew MacArthur (MA, History, ’97) combined his enthusiasm for the past with digital media to get his dream job. As the director of digital experience at the National Museum of American History at the Smithsonian, listen in for tips on taking inspiration from other fields to expand your job opportunities.
For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
How do you make the most out of your graduate experience? Listen in as Stewart Donaldson, distinguished university professor and executive director of Claremont Evaluation Center, gives tips on thriving in graduate school and gaining lifetime connections. Discover how Donaldson––along with professors Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and Jeanne Nakamura––developed the first research-focused PhD and MA programs in positive psychology. For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
Rather than focus on a single field, Eve Oishi took a transdisciplinary approach to designing her college path, letting all of her interests guide her. Share her course to becoming the chair of Cultural Studies at CGU. Gain tips on how to make the most of your college experience. For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
What do you want to do? Who do you want to be? What is your purpose? Zack Bodner (MA, Philosophy of Religion and Theology, ’98), CEO of the Oshman Family Jewish Community Center, tells us his remarkable journey in attempting to answer those questions for himself. Listen in as he talks about making a difference and not ruling out any possibilities that led to him interning for American social and political activist, Tom Hadden, before becoming a writer and discovering the “meaning of life.” Also, be sure to check out Zack’s book "Why Do Jewish? A Manifesto for 21st Century Jewish Peoplehood" when it comes out this summer. For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
How does one go from barely passing high school to having a six-figure job in the mortgage industry to working at Fortune 500 companies like Google, Gallup, and Deloitte? Listen to this episode as Kevin Campbell (MA, Organizational Psychology, ’15) shares his story and gives tips on what he learned from each company. Stay until the end to hear how he eventually founded Lifted Leadership, which helps inspire others to find their own path. For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
CGU Director of Preparing Future Faculty Shamini Dias (PhD, Education, ’13) gives tips on engaging and leading people using each individual’s unique skillset. Enjoy hearing her path to becoming, as she calls it, “a teaching artist.” Dias uses her theatre experience to blend pedagogy methods and innovate and engage students in new ways.
For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
How do you go from wanting to be a large-animal veterinarian to eventually becoming the Dean of the School of Educational Studies at Claremont Graduate University? Find out as DeLacy Ganley shares her remarkable journey and her work in educational reform. For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
What’s it like to work for Apple, a pioneer of innovation? Saori Casey (MBA, ‘95), is Apple’s vice president of corporate financial planning and shares her stories from working at the tech giant and offers advice on the skillsets you need to get in at Apple. Gain tips from Casey’s 30 years of experience in the finance and tech fields! For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
Not every professor’s path leads directly to teaching. Lori Anne Ferrell shares a remarkable saga of a single mom and nurse, turned distinguished humanities professor and ultimately the dean of CGU’s School of Arts & Humanities. Listen for an inspiring story of how your current situation does not have to dictate your future.
For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
Do you know when to say ‘yes’ to opportunities? Do you know when to say ‘no’ and enjoy the moment? Angel B. Pérez (PhD, Education, ’15) is the CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling. In this episode, Pérez offers tips on when to say ‘yes,’ when to say ‘no,’ and how to make your name known.
For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
You need to hear this: Her biggest tip is how to make yourself irreplaceable. Alumna and current PhD student in history Kerri Dean-Bridges (MA, History, ’15) is the DIY project manager at the Smithsonian Institution—her dream job. They create remote exhibitions easily installed in any location. Listen and learn.
Episode Transcript:
Kerri:
I was about to move to DC with my husband who had gotten a job in the city, knowing that we wanted to work there and knowing that my dream was Smithsonian, I just needed to get closer to it. In my speech, though, when I was leaving, I said, "I am going to work at the Smithsonian." I put it out there in the universe. I never have done that before ever in my life and one of my best friends told me "Just start putting it in the universe." It was the first time I said it out loud, and three weeks later they called me for the interview. So, I just feel like there was some cosmic energy to work there.
Rachel Jimenez:
I'm Rachel Jimenez.
Megan Elledge:
And I'm Megan Elledge.
Rachel Jimenez:
Welcome to How'd You Get That Job, a podcast from Claremont Graduate University about successful careers and the stories behind them.
Rachel Jimenez:
Kerri, I'm so excited to have you on our show today. Thank you so much for being here and being willing to share your story with us.
Kerri:
Thanks, Rachel. I'm excited to be here with you guys and talk to you about my time at CGU and how it led me to where I'm at.
Rachel Jimenez:
Awesome. So, you are currently the exhibitions assistant/project manager for DIY at the Smithsonian Institution, which is the National Museum of Natural History. Can you talk about what that super-long title means and what you do in your role there?
Kerri:
Yeah. So, it's a super long title. That's kind of on my part that it's super long. I started there in March 2018, so a little over two years, and because the Smithsonian is a quasi-government museum complex, research institution, that there are different ways of hiring, so [inaudible 00:01:36] backstory on how I got the position: I'm hired on as a contractor and, when I got the SOW, which is a statement of work, I applied for an exhibits assistant position, and then I had to bid for it. Once I got the interview, we were ready to move to DC anyway, and I got to do that interview right when I moved there, so very lucky that worked out, timing-wise.
Kerri:
They interviewed me for the exhibits assistant position and it's mostly just admin tasks. I help install exhibits, if there's anything that needs to be done, anything under other project managers, anything under other exhibit developers in the exhibits department and natural history. It's a department of 32 people which is quite large. We are one of the bigger museums of the Smithsonian brand.
Kerri:
I work directly under the assistant director of exhibits, Mike Lawrence, and when he hired me, he actually just had been promoted to that position, and so I was his first assistant. He and I get along very well, as we were both kind of Type A personalities and he realized he really didn't need much of an assistant, so they needed to give me some other task to do to keep me busy to continue to work full time, and it just happened to be, when I started there, they were starting this brand new program that's never been done at the Smithsonian and, from my knowledge, not broadly at other institutions either.
Kerri:
We call it the Do It Yourself exhibits, and from this, I kind of was able to transform my position from mainly just being an exhibits assistant and doing admin work to being a project manager or a program manager. We're still working on the title, so it might even be longer, who knows? It's not actually official yet. Well, it's official, but it's such a new program, we don't know if it's a program yet. We just got it on the website. Very huge accomplishment from myself and my team I was working with to do that about three weeks ago, but we're calling it a program and I'm the project manager for the Do It Yourself exhibits that have been developed.
Kerri:
How that came about was, in my interview, I actually mentioned how much I really like museums without walls concept, and that's actually something that came from a CGU class that I really got into this idea of a team project where we were looking at doing a museum exhibit in [inaudible 00:03:55]. It was during the Bath Spa class, and my classmates and I ... this was our group project at the end of the semester, and it really inspired me five years ago, six years ago, to start really thinking about museums without walls and how we can reach communities and not in a normal museum setting.
Kerri:
So, since I mentioned that in the interview and this program was just getting started, they thought I was the perfect person to kind of spearhead it when the first Do It Yourself exhibit came up. At first, we called it a pop-up exhibit, but then I did some title testing with the visitors and we landed on Do It Yourself. Now, we just call it the DIY program. It started with Outbreak, which is our exhibit that's in-house. It's called Outbreak: Epidemics in a Connected World. We took this exhibit that's 4,200 square feet, it's a very timely exhibit right now, and we pared it down into 18 content panels that we distribute for free around the world, and people can print on demand and create these exhibits to be popped up in their own museums, in their own libraries, in airports, wherever.
Kerri:
That's how my position has now transformed to being more of managing these Do It Yourself exhibits. I'm super excited about it because it's so exciting to see, especially Outbreak. We translated it into five languages. It's been to over 140 locations in just over two years, and I've been personally the person who contacts these people where it's gone and I've helped them get these exhibits up. I get to do specific outreach on museum content I never thought was imaginable before. So, yes, it's a very long title and it's a very long story on how I got the title, and I'm super excited on how it just kind of keeps forming into this new position and it never really existed before, so I'm excited about that.
Rachel Jimenez:
I love it, and I think that's so interesting. So, we know each other. You worked in the office of advancement when you were a student, so I know that the Smithsonian is your dream job. Can you give us a breakdown? I would love to hear the story of why is that your dream company to work for, and then how do you go from being an undergraduate student and then to where you are now? Even in high school. I don't know when you came up with the dream of wanting to work there, but how did that dream get established and then how do you actually make something like that come true?
Kerri:
So yes, we do know each other, and I've loved working with you and everyone in marketing, communications and advancement. I miss everyone, but I do love being in DC, and it is where I wanted to be. I didn't even realize that's where I ... I always knew the Smithsonian was the dream place to me and, as a kid, we grew up going to ... my parents got me really into history and I was not a history undergrad major, I was a poli sci major and I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. Then, I decided I liked myself too much, and I decided not to do that, or not to go to law school.
Kerri:
So, I took some time off. I took five years off. I worked at a bank, and then hated that. Then, I went and I taught at a community college. I taught at Chaffey in the writing center, and I did that for three years. That's when I decided to go back to grad school and let's get into Claremont after some people have started to tell me ... some people I'd worked with at Chaffey had also gone to CGU and they recommended looking into their program. Then, I spent a summer in China the year before I decided to apply to CGU to kind of see what I really wanted to do.
Kerri:
Then, that's when I got this idea, like "You know, museums have always been what I wanted to do. I've always been interested in history. I'm going to go to school for history and then do museums because I don't really want to be a professor because that's just not ... " I mean, I got the teaching experience, I taught in China, I taught at Chaffey, I led workshops at Chaffey, and it wasn't really where my passion was. I like things and what things can tell people when they go to see them in a museum setting, but I'm also the person who reads every label. So, I do love museums. Even as a kid, watching Indiana Jones and him being part of the National Museum was always inspiring.
Kerri:
That's how I knew the Smithsonian was the crème de la crème, right? It is the crème brûlée of museums. People think of museums, that's usually the one they think of, the institution they think of. I didn't realize it would ever happen. I was very skeptical that it would ever happen, but I had a job at a local museum in Upland, California, the Cooper Regional History Museum, for a little over a year before I left. Started as a ... to finishing up an RA position I had with Dr. Janet Brodie, and she introduced me to them.
Kerri:
Once I was there, I literally worked at the tiniest museum you could think of. It is so tiny, it's only five minutes from CGU but it is so tiny, and I spent a lot of time reworking their collections management policy, working on curating an exhibit, and I knew if I could do small things [inaudible 00:08:46] I doubt I could be a little fish in a big pond, but I still wanted the Smithsonian. Never would have thought it'd be the second big job I had.
Kerri:
My last day of working at that museum, we had an opening reception for the exhibit I curated, and the board of directors asked me to do a speech. I was about to move to DC with my husband, who had gotten a job in the city, knowing that we wanted to work there and knowing that my dream was Smithsonian, I just needed to get closer to it. In my speech, though, when I was leaving, I said, "I am going to work at the Smithsonian." I put it out there in the universe. I never have done that before ever in my life and one of my best friends told me "Just start putting it in the universe." It was the first time I said it out loud, and three weeks later they called me for the interview. So, I just feel like there was some cosmic energy to work there.
Kerri:
Then, when I got that interview, they were even willing ... they had actually originally emailed me for the interview and I was on my honeymoon in Europe. I was like "I could do a Skype call, I could do ... whatever you need, I will be on that interview." It was 2:00 AM here. I was in Prague. "I don't care. I will be on that interview," and they said, "Oh no, we can wait." The fact that they were willing to wait for me and they were a little skeptical because I have a master's, but I'm finishing a PhD. Now, I'm ABD, and they were very skeptical about that because yes, people have a master's in just to get your foot in the door at the Smithsonian, but if you have your PhD, usually, you're only going to be a curator. So, they were quite skeptical of actually hiring me.
Kerri:
So, that was a little worrisome, but they were honest about it. Here I am, more than two years later, and I'm still there, still happy, and hopefully going to be there for a long time. It's not my dream museum, the natural history museum ... I'm learning a lot there, but I don't have a natural history background. I do have environmental history as a background, so there's quite a little bit of stuff there that I do like, but really, my dream would be to either be next door at the American history museum or even American Indian, or something down the street, but I'm happy just to be in the Smithsonian and the natural history museum is the biggest natural history museum in the world, so it's quite surreal still, walking into the doors when we're open. It's crazy. A bit crazy.
Rachel Jimenez:
So, you mentioned that they called and they gave you the interview. Was there anything interesting or unique about applying? Was it just you saw they had the job available and you applied? Did you know anybody there? Can you talk about that?
Kerri:
Sure. So actually, it is interesting because before I got this job and I kind of joke about it that I had applied to 132 jobs that year and a half before, and I had three interviews out of those 130-something jobs? I'll be honest, maybe like 30 of them were just throwaway applications I just put my name out, I knew it was nothing, but a good chunk in a year and a half of jobs, and I had three interviews before this position. This one, I just found on happenstance. I joined the emerging museum professionals Facebook group. A colleague who I worked with in advancement, Kelsey Picken, who was a cultural studies PhD student as well, she got me involved in the LA version of it, and through that, I was able to network some people of LA.
Kerri:
When I realized how much I wanted to be in DC, I joined the DC branch of EMP and one of the girls on that page ... she was a volunteer representative in natural history, and she posted a statement of work in asking for a call of proposals. That's how I heard about it, and she said if anyone had any questions, to reach out. I've never reached out to anyone before when they've said that but, for some reason, I decided, "You know what? I'm going to do it." Something just ... was the first time I've ever actually reached out to anyone, and I reached out to her. I emailed her. "Any advice?" She gave me the name of the girl who I was replacing who was hiring for her, and she was moving on to another position. She gave me some advice on what to put in my cover letter and what to put in my proposal, so I definitely think taking that leap of faith of emailing her, the person who posted the job ... it really helped, and it showed, for me ...
Kerri:
She had nothing to do with hiring. She didn't put a good word in or anything, but she did connect me with some people who did, and the person who was replacing. Even though it was just a brief email, actually, the girl who I replaced, as I said earlier, they were hesitant about me having a PhD. She was the one who actually pushed for me to get the interview. She got my email first and she just had a feeling, she says, that it was a good fit, and they had been interviewing other people. It just felt like it was the right thing. Her and I have talked since. She had moved on to a different position, so I got to get to know her, and very grateful for her to actually see on paper this person she has no idea who she is, and then be like "You know? There's something good about what I'm seeing here."
Rachel Jimenez:
There's so much there. I'm glad we dug deeper into that because there's definitely networking at CGU and then there's knowing the place to look to find it, even if it's just a Facebook group. I think the fact that you were very clear that you wanted to go to DC ... I think a lot of our students, they'll do what you did and apply to 130 places, then they get nothing, but then, when they get really clear on where they want to go and then maybe have a list of the top one or the top three companies that you're keeping your eye out for, when you see them, then you can actually take action. So, I love that.
Rachel Jimenez:
So, we talked a little bit before we started recording that you're an independent contractor, so you were mentioning statement of work and things like that. It's not a normal position that you might apply for, so can you talk about that process and how it was different?
Kerri:
So, what I've learned ... that DC is very much contractor-heavy. For the Smithsonian, there's a chunk of people work as contractors, there's a chunk of people who work as trust employees, and then there's a chunk of people who work as federal employees. There's this quasi-institution thing, trust and contractors. They get past that bureaucratic red tape faster because it's a government position, so a lot of times, getting the foot in the door is to be a contractor or a trust employee, trust employee meaning it comes from trust funds and not federal funds. So, that's the difference. It's similar, just to clarify terminology.
Kerri:
The contract is quite a common spot to start at, and the exhibits department, for example, like I said, we're the biggest museum and we have a large exhibits team. In order to get that many people in, it's easier sometimes to have contracts to get through the pipeline of hiring. So, with the SOW, what they did was they'll send out this job announcement. It seems almost just like any job announcement except, at the end, it'll say "Please send a proposal with your rate, your qualifications and how you can do it." So, I still sent in my resume as part of my proposal package, and my cover letter.
Kerri:
I sent everything I normally would as part of my proposal package, and then, I had to write a ... since I'd never done it before, I actually got help from the girl who had posted about it, and I just wrote three sentences. I realize I'm making hand gestures and no one can see me, but I did a very short chunk of sentences that said how I would perform the duties of the job being asked and what my rate would be. Then, I had to do a rate for three years, so I gave myself an increase as if I was ... a raise for the next option years going forward for three more years. So, it would be a contract for four years.
Kerri:
So, that's what I did, and then that's how they ... They look through them as that, and they have to bid, which means they have to get at least three people to apply, which I think a Smithsonian job is going to get more than three anyways so that's never a problem because if it's over a certain amount of money, the government requires you to get different bids.
Kerri:
I did something, again, similar. I was able to renegotiate my contract when we added in the new long title last year, and I was able to negotiate a higher salary because one thing: for contractors, especially those who want to work in the museums in DC, and I would say similarly in New York as well ... I didn't notice this at all in LA, but since there's a lot of contract work, and I do feel that the future of museums might go this way going forward, especially with the lack of revenue that's coming out of this pandemic for museums, I wouldn't be surprised if more contractors [inaudible 00:17:24], but that being said, it's hard to value yourself and where you put that value on your time. I learned that lesson the hard way. I used to be a baker on the side and I never charged nearly as much as I was worth for my time or my goods to make just because I liked it and I knew I wanted to do it.
Kerri:
I feel the same way. I undercharged myself when I got hired. That wasn't the reason I got hired, but I mean, I was right average. There were people who put in a lot higher, I found out later, and then once I kind of proved my worth, I was able to renegotiate for much higher salary going forward and for the next two option years, to negotiate some travel funds so I could present at conferences and do more professional development. It is a little different, there's a little different negotiation skills with that, and I feel that's something that I lacked before. Knowing how little museum professionals make, not knowing really how to value that in the first proposal, but I think I learned going to the second year negotiation.
Kerri:
Going forward, I'm now negotiated into a decent salary, where I get a decent raise every year. It is a little different. I don't have performance reviews in the same way. I still get reviewed and they can easily cut me out if I'm not making that performance, but it's a little different than an actual employee.
Rachel Jimenez:
I think that's fascinating, so thank you for diving deeper into that. Speaking of the salary, did you do research? Did you just guess and say "Well, I just want to work there, so this is what I'll put," and you think you undervalued yourself? Were you looking at things like PayScale or Glassdoor to try to figure it out? What strategies did you use? Also, in hindsight, knowing what you know now, if you could give yourself advice of what you should've done, what would you have done?
Kerri:
I think that's a great question because I did do research but I had been doing research for a while just because ... for other jobs and to see. I was actually up for another job, one of the three that I'd interviewed for, a few months before. Before my husband had gotten the job in DC, when we knew we were going to move, I was in a final interview round for another big museum, and when they told me their pay scale, they actually told me it, and it was for a full time position. It was an actual employee position. I was astonished to see how small it was, and for New York, so I'm actually grateful I didn't get the job because I wouldn't have been able to survive on that pay.
Kerri:
So, that was kind of my jumping-off point, knowing if that was New York and that's what a big museum was paying, I knew I had to make more to live in DC, so I kind of went off with what they call the GS scale for government employees. So, I kind of started to do some research on that and what I could make out was it's an hourly pay, so I tried to figure out what I could make hourly. I do have a master's, so I feel I should get paid a little bit more, but it's still not a lot.
Kerri:
I mean, I think I had to be competitive, so I think that took me down. So, say if I was going to be at one number, I realized because it's so competitive and I wanted to work at the Smithsonian, I wanted that foot in the door, I didn't care how little money I made, I probably took it down at least five dollars an hour. I automatically took that, I know for sure, and took down at least, minimum, five dollars [inaudible 00:20:53] now what I thought I should be making, which I've kind of regrouped a little bit, but still not.
Kerri:
So, that's kind of where I did my benchmarking was to see what the GS level was for people with ... and I did just a bachelor's versus having a master's, and I kind of put myself equivalent to a bachelor's because it was such an entry-level position to get in. I was like "You know, I don't have to have a master's to get into this position, and it would be a bachelor's only." It just happens that everyone in the exhibits department happens to have a master's degree because, like so many of my colleagues who are in this department who have now become exhibit developers or PMs, project managers, they stated in my position.
Kerri:
So, learning from them, I didn't know this when made my proposal, but then talking to them since, it seemed like the right choice, even though that first year really kind of sucked living in a big city with not a lot of pay, but I feel like I'm in a better place and I kind of feel like that I have kind of solidified my position at the museum because of it.
Kerri:
So, I mean, I know this is not your question, the advice, but when I started there, someone said, "Oh, everyone's replaceable," and I really hated hearing that. Then, someone else told me that she also had started as a contractor and she was a writer. She's kind of the opposite. She said, "You know ... " she had left a good-paying job for it because it was the Smithsonian and she had an opening. Her dad told her, and she told me this one day when I was kind of feeling down. She said, "You have to make yourself irreplaceable."
Kerri:
So, someone's telling you you're replaceable? You have to make that skill. So, I feel like, when I say I kind of moved into this extra long title of a position, I kind of made myself irreplaceable to where I know that knowledge now, and now, I know my worth on it. Yeah, I might not be making millions because I chose to go into museum work, and I'm completely content with that. I'm completely happy with that, but I know my worth too, in the museum world now, and I know that I'm kind of proving it every day as I go.
Kerri:
I'm still learning. I'm very humble in that. I make mistakes. I made a mistake this week, and I'm still learning, so I think that's ... for the pay scale, that's kind of what I did in that.
Rachel Jimenez:
Knowing what you know now, would you have given your younger self different advice or any advice of what you should've done?
Kerri:
Yeah, I think so. I get this question a lot actually, at work, because I'm the newest person in the department. The reason I say this ... Backstory. So, people ... they go to the Smithsonian, they very rarely leave. It's one of those places. Yeah, the pay's not great, but you're at the Smithsonian. Who cares? That's how I feel every day going in. I just feel lucky that I'm there, and I get to be a part of something so great. The mission is just such an amazing mission: to get this knowledge out there to the public for free, and to be the nation's museum, that people don't leave. You feel that every day, and it's a good thing. You want to be a part of something that's bigger like that.
Kerri:
So, I think the advice on that to me ... Since I'm still the newest person, I've been there two years, but my boss, she'll get a lot of emails inquiring "Oh, I'm a student here at this school and I'm interested in museum studies. Can I talk to you for an hour?" Which is great, informative interviews are great, they're a great way to meet people and network. After she talks to them, she usually brings them to me and she asks them if I could talk to them, because I have a different, realistic approach. I'm fresh out of school, sort of. I'm still a student, I'm a candidate, so not technically a student, but I have a different perspective, where she's been there for 20-something years. Her perspective is completely different, and she can hire them but knowing if there's 150 of those same people there, it's going to be different than what I'm going to tell that person who is just thinking about starting in a museum studies program.
Kerri:
So, I've now met with, like, four people in just two years who have had this same question, and I think the biggest thing for me that I've learned is to be flexible and then to know your worth. I've already talked a lot about the worth with the pay, but even more than that is sometimes, these jobs and whether ... I mean, I'm speaking for museum jobs with internships, but even in an industry, any kind of business, sometimes, people don't respect the lowest in the totem pole, and that can be a morale downer.
Kerri:
I really feel that, at the museum, we don't see that. At my museum, we don't see that at all, and that's been able to help me build that confidence of knowing my worth and I know not everyone will be as lucky as I am to have that experience. I think that, if people can think about that more, to know their worth even if they're being shot down because they're that lowest person on the totem pole, to continue as they know "Hey, you worked hard to get here too, it's okay." So, it's not even talking about it monetarily.
Kerri:
Then, being flexible ... especially in the museum field, you have to be flexible. You have to know how to do everything that you can do, everything to your capacity. When I was at CGU working in mar comm, I did a lot of digital stuff with the website redesign, but it was mostly on the photo database side, not actually the website. The last year and a half to year, one of my extenuating duties as an exhibits assistant ... I had to learn how to do Drupal, which is a website-building platform, and I've had to learn how to build website pages. If you go to the website for natural history, all the exhibit pages ... I put them up. If you do the DIY website, I did that.
Kerri:
I'm a historian. I don't like technology, really. I like old things, so I've had to learn how to be really flexible in learning new things, even though it's not in my job description. Not being taken advantage of, but it's not in my job description, and knowing what that line is, the difference between being flexible and being taken advantage of, I think that's really important.
Kerri:
I think there's a reality check that I do tell people, in being flexible also means that the jobs aren't always there and we can use our skills in something else because museums ... my minor in my master's is archival studies, and one of my minor fields for my PhD is museum studies. So yes, museums and archives is where I want to be, where my heart is, but the jobs aren't there. I feel I got very lucky. I was prepared, but I got very lucky for this job, and now, with philanthropy changing after this pandemic, a lot of museums are closing. People coming into the world just need to be flexible that those jobs might open up again, and they will because people have to retire, especially at the Smithsonian, that's something that we kind of tell these young people who come see us is just kind of be patient, too, because there's not that many jobs, but there eventually will be another turnaround.
Kerri:
Same thing with any kind of academic position, too, but it's just all the skills that we learn in a museum, whether it be an internship or from school, it really can be used in a different setting, too, so ... flexibility.
Rachel Jimenez:
Absolutely. I love this. Well, there's so much here because I think there's one side where you have the ideal side, where you get your master's or your PhD. You're spending money. I mean, tuition isn't free most of the time, and you have loans, so you want to be making a good salary, but then if you have a certain dream job, you've got to get your foot in the door. Sometimes, you have to make sacrifices, and I think it's important to be realistic. In a perfect world, you get your dream job and you're making as much money as you want, but we don't live in that kind of a world. Maybe you don't get your dream job or your dream company, but you are making good money, or maybe it's the opposite, but you hope that you get one of those, or close to it.
Rachel Jimenez:
Then, as you build more skills and you grow your network, and you have a strategy in the back of your mind, you're going closer and closer to what you ultimately want to get to. I love that you mentioned Drupal because I think that's ... you might not be making as much, but you're building your network, you're proving your worth, and you're building skills that, sometimes, it's outside of your comfort zone and you're forced to do it, but a year or two later, then add that to your resume, and that makes you so much more valuable and, potentially, irreplaceable, like you were saying. So, it's like "Oh, budget cuts are coming," but it's like "Oh, that's the only person that knows how to do this, so we can't get rid of that person." There's all kinds of things there, so no, I love this. This is so inspiring. I really appreciate all the tips that you're giving us.
Kerri:
Actually, yeah. Out of the 30+ people in exhibits, I'm the only one who knows Drupal, I'm the only one who learned it, so if the exhibit pages need to go up or anything ... Even that alone, I'm good on my job. I've got a job for a while.
Rachel Jimenez:
That's so good.
Megan Elledge:
Are you a CGU student or alum that's looking for career advice? If so, don't forget that you have lifetime access to free career counseling through CGU's career development office. Simply call 909-607-9022 or email career.development@cgu.edu to make an appointment today.
Megan Elledge:
So, with COVID-19, how is the museum staying connected, and kind of how has your job changed?
Kerri:
That's a great question, and it's something that ... oh, I hate this word, but I'm going to say it: I grapple with every day. So, we kind of joke about that at work: how are we going to grapple with this? So, as I mentioned, the exhibit, the first one I worked on, and I was not part of the physical exhibit team but just the DYI, is Outbreak. It is a temporary exhibit and is Outbreak: Epidemics in a Connected World. It's literally on zoonotic diseases, which is what COVID-19 is, and how diseases become pandemic.
Kerri:
It's so timely and I've been so involved with it. I worked with the curator very closely for the DIY version of it, I helped connect her with places that it's gone, I helped bring this information to all these organizations before COVID-19, but because we have this exhibit, it's kind of brought us to the front a lot on the museum front because we have this and we actually created a COVID-19 panel for the DIY within two weeks, so I PMed that. I made sure that got done. Right now, we're in the midst of translating it into the other languages. That's another thing that we're really ... We realize that we're a national museum, but we have a global audience and it's so important to communicate certain things in different languages so other communities can get it. So, that's one way.
Kerri:
Since I learned Drupal, my biggest job for the first two weeks of teleworking was putting all that Outbreak content onto a digital exhibit. I mean, I didn't write the content, my brilliant writers I work with [inaudible 00:31:47] wrote it, and then from our thing, I took the script, I took all the images and I made it into this digital exhibit from our Drupal platform on our website. The first week, I think it had, like, 2,000 hits. It's gotten so many hits that our website usually doesn't see that many.
Kerri:
We get between five to seven million visitors a year. Now, it's transferring those physical visitors to online, and our website, when they redesigned it two years ago, is really for just getting people to the door. No one was thinking of this idea of making virtual tours and digital exhibits. Our IT team has made all of our major halls now on virtual tours. I took the DIY stuff and I put that with our communications team on a digital exhibit, so we're passing that out.
Kerri:
We're doing a lot of digital programming. I work with some really great educators. Outbreak is actually doing a lot of their programming online. They just had their first digital online webinar program for that. I was on it. I think it had almost 500 people in the middle of the day, 11:30 AM, listening to Dennis Carroll, who was one of our advisors for that exhibit, a pandemic specialist and the curator talking about COVID-19 and pandemics. So, I think people are looking towards ... I hope they are looking towards actual experts during this time. I think they see the Smithsonian, especially natural history, we have this exhibit and they're looking at us as one of the experts. So, it puts us in a very unique position, similar with other science museums.
Kerri:
One of the other exhibits I work on is Genome, which is another DIY, and I work closely with the National Human Genome Research Institute, which is NHGRI, and they work under NIH, so that's even been getting upticks because people are seeing this, because NIH is in the news all the time when you have Dr. Fauci. He's always talking, so it's kind of giving us some traffic to something else that might have not been of interest to some people but now, because of what's going on, people are more interested in this. In Genome, it talks about genomics. You hear CRISPR and all these other genome sequencing, and all these different worlds are colliding.
Kerri:
We're just lucky that we actually just happened to finish that DIY. I was project managing that. We launched on April 2nd and just happened to be ... we'd been working on this for almost a year and it just happened to coincide with this pandemic. Unfortunately, people can't print them out and see them in places, but we hope that these resources that are free will help people when they do come, when the world does open back up, especially museums. We hope that other museums can kind of use our resources and kind of follow suit, because it's going to be a challenging time for everyone. It's going to be a challenging time for museums to reopen, but I think we are very fortunate in that sense, that we kind of have that national spotlight on it.
Megan Elledge:
Do you think, going forward, museums are going to use more technology and, especially with jobs going forward, require that ... you've learned on the job to do the Drupal and all these things. Do you think that's going to be, going forward, a requirement?
Kerri:
It's hard to say because we actually have been talking a lot about this. It depends. There's a lot of good resources out there, articles, and just communication's happening around this around the museum world. I do think the digital world would be something important. I mean, Megan, we were in that class together where we did a digital exhibit, so I kind of feel like I took that. I feel like I took those skills a little bit with me into this, and I feel digital humanities are very important now. I do think it's going to continue, and I hope CGU actually does invest more in digital humanities efforts. I do think it is going to go that way.
Kerri:
However, in museums, I think it's ... So, I'm on the core team for a new exhibit that's called Cell Phone: Unseen Connections. So, it's the natural history of cell phones, and it's supposed to be opening in 2021. We have this great big exhibit, and the curator is so great. He's a cultural anthropologist. We're talking about cell phones and how they changed the world. We have all these ideas and all this great technology, but are people going to want to touch things, going forward, in exhibits? So, we just had this conversation yesterday in our meeting. How does that change the media plan? Does that change the media plan? Will people forget? [inaudible 00:36:08] humans have bad memories, so they might forget in a year and a half and start touching things.
Kerri:
Even going to our Outbreak space, we walk through and we happen to have hand sanitizers on each end. It's because it's the Outbreak exhibit, but we have six interactive touchables. That's going to change. We started shutting those down in February when the outbreak started just because we knew that people would start worrying. I think that is something that's definitely going to change in museums and it's going to change other places, too. How we're working as a museum ... it's been interesting observing how the Smithsonian secretary's handling it. They're doing such a great job, but there's so many uncertainties that I don't know.
Kerri:
I do think touchables will be different, so I think technology is going to be important, but for at-home technology? We get all this great technology that we've been putting into exhibits to make things more tactile, tangible and accessible for other visitors. I think some of that's going to have to change, too. Then, there goes other budget things and it's a big ... again, there's my hands. It's a big snowball. So, I think we're definitely in an unknown space post-COVID.
Megan Elledge:
I want you to talk about your dissertation because I love your dissertation topic and I think everyone would find that fascinating.
Kerri:
Thanks. So, my dissertation ... it sparked from my master's degree, my master's thesis on the history of Christmas lights. Again, I like things, so I like to look at a thing and how does it say? So, when I used that, I looked at really using this object as a lens to telling 21st century history and how did this change certain celebrations? How did this change people's interactions? How is there a gendered experience when using these things? What kind of stories could we tell?
Kerri:
So, riffing off of that, my dissertation ... I have a terrible title so I'm not even going to say it because I had to give a title for becoming a candidate, which I don't even know what I gave them. I gave the office something. So, I'm looking at the American Christmas tree and I'm doing a cultural and environmental history of it, looking at how ... from the environmental aspects, the cultural aspects and how they kind of intertwine. I'm doing some oral histories with farmers, I'm looking at how the different farming techniques have changed and how people who have decorated have been different, and then why a Christmas tree is so important in our culture? I argue in my dissertation it's not religion. It's not a religious symbol, it is a cultural symbol, a Western cultural symbol, it's around the globe now ... how this has kind of proliferated into meaning more than Christmas, and why that's so important.
Kerri:
Actually, two months ago, I had never done Reddit before and I went down a Reddit hole. I was looking up Christmas tree tattoos and my friend inspired me. She got a job at the Columbia Space Museum and she got an Apollo tattoo for her first real museum job. I was like "You know, I should get a Christmas tree tattoo when I'm finished. That'll be my dissertation present to myself." I started looking and I found this one. I ended up messaging the person and we started emailing back and forth. He's Canadian, and he has this beautiful tattoo on his arm. I started asking questions about it, like "Why a Christmas tree? What does it mean to you?"
Kerri:
So, now, I feel like I've gone down this new rabbit hole of representation of a tree in your life. It's more than just that, and how people have them on their arms. His story was so fascinating that I'm pretty sure that's going to make it into my introduction now. I love ... you just go down all these random rabbit holes and find something interesting and great, but thanks for being interested in my topic.
Megan Elledge:
I feel like, with your dissertation, I see elements that you wrote about in your dissertation that you're using in your job. So, what other classes have you kind of gained that you grabbed from that you use in your job?
Kerri:
So, a long answer. A friend of mine from CGU, she told me once ... I told her I was project managing. I'm like "I don't know if I could do this." About two years ago I was telling her this and she said, "You know? Getting your PhD is just a big project management position." It's so true. So, I feel like every little thing that I've done ... just being able to organize a paper has helped me. Every class, I'm learning how to wrangle in a committee and all be on the same page, how to get them behind what you want to talk about has all kind of been able to help me lead these meetings that I'm leading on projects while still being understanding of where people are coming from, their views and changing. So, that in general ... I think just experiencing grad school has allowed me to become a good project manager. It's kind of trained me to be a project manager.
Kerri:
Class-wise, I do think there's a little bit. A lot of the cultural history stuff that I've done ... this is content-wise. I feel like it gets me more intrigued. When I'm working on the cell phone exhibit, I get so excited. He's a cultural anthropologist, so he's more present, but in my mind, I get so excited. I'm like "Oh, historically, this'll be great for this or this," and the feeling of helping to make all these connections.
Kerri:
Actual day to day work, I think ... I took some museum studies that helped, but I feel like, again, I just think it's more the overall experience and there's some classes that you really get to share ... you read a book and then you just digest it, then you have to regurgitate it out. I feel like being able to do that and kind of in a synopsis form with working has been able to really help get through some of these projects and being able to organize and all that kind of stuff. So, I think it's more of a collective help.
Megan Elledge:
[crosstalk 00:42:10]-
Rachel Jimenez:
Shall we get to the on the spot questions?
Megan Elledge:
... Yeah, I was going to say that.
Rachel Jimenez:
[inaudible 00:42:12] What is your favorite memory from attending CGU?
Kerri:
I think the people. I mean, I was not involved at all in undergrad. I'm an awkward person in general and I just feel like I really found my people at CGU. All of the events and stuff is probably my favorite memory because I met some lifelong friends, networked and everything like that. So, the people. I'm not sure that's a memory or not, but ...
Megan Elledge:
What CGU faculty member had the biggest impact on your career?
Kerri:
Janet, Dr. Janet Brodie. She was my advisor from day one and she has seen me grow into the scholar I am using conversations with her. She's seen me grow into who I am and she's helped me make big decisions. She's not a museum studies professor, but some of my biggest decisions were helped through her advice. When I decided between ... I got the 9/11 Museum internship and I got an internship at the Forest Society, the US Forest Society, a government internship in DC.
Kerri:
She was the one to really help me decide where did I want to be? When I realized it was DC that I wanted to be at ultimately, then ... and what was more challenging. We just looked at the jobs together, so I really think, career-wise, her helping me through that decision was really helpful, and it really changed my path of where I was going. She's just amazing.
Rachel Jimenez:
Sounds like it from everything. She showed up a lot in your story. What's the best career advice you've ever received?
Kerri:
I'm still going back to I think what that person at work told me recently, in how you make yourself irreplaceable. Make yourself a niche and I think even with my topics, I always try to be in a niche: being a holiday historian is not really the most common thing, but it's a niche. When people need me, I'm there and I kind of feel the same with this DIY stuff. When I got that advice [inaudible 00:44:20] just kind of make yourself irreplaceable, all of the lights went on, like "Ah, that makes sense now."
Rachel Jimenez:
All the Christmas lights went on.
Kerri:
Exactly. It was a Stranger Things moment. [inaudible 00:44:33]
Megan Elledge:
So, what is the biggest career mistake you have made?
Kerri:
Again, people can't see me, but I'll imitate it. I was in an interview, one of the three interviews that I had out of the hundreds of applications, at the Coronado Historical Society. It was for a collections management position, and I was on the third interview. It was in person. Drove all the way down there, two hours to go. It had gone well until I met the then-director of the museum and she was saying something about the city of Coronado and how they're so enthralled with the history of the Christmas tree because I'd given them a writing sample and I said, "Actually ... " I put my finger up and I corrected her on her history. I knew the moment my finger went up and I corrected her that I did not get that job. Then, she went on to tell me [inaudible 00:45:29] ... It all worked out, not having that position, but that was the most memorable mistake, I could say. Do not correct people in an interview who are hiring you.
Rachel Jimenez:
Wait until after they hire you to correct them?
Kerri:
Exactly. So, the second thing she got wrong was she was saying "Oh, Mary Pickford was actually ... " because it was in my article that I sent them, "She was actually from Coronado." I wanted to be like "Actually no, she was from Canada," but I bit my tongue that time.
Rachel Jimenez:
I love it. What is the worst career advice you've ever received?
Kerri:
I think that kind of mix between when someone said, "Everyone's replaceable," I think that was really hard to hear, I don't think it's true, and I think that was the worst in that sense, but then also, I think some of the worst advice was just not getting advice, not asking for advice. Honestly, I don't think I've asked for a lot of advice. I think that was the worst. I mean, that sounds stupid, but ...
Rachel Jimenez:
No, I think that's really good. When you have asked for advice or reached out, it seems like really good things have happened, so what would happen if you had done it more?
Kerri:
Exactly, exactly.
Rachel Jimenez:
Got it.
Kerri:
So, the worst is the ones not given.
Megan Elledge:
So, going forward, what's your wildest career aspiration and dream?
Kerri:
Being a curator at the American history museum, the National Museum of American History.
Rachel Jimenez:
Hey, you just put it out there.
Kerri:
I just put it out there. I will be a curator at the National Museum of American History. In the future. That's my goal. I mean, second tier would be to be a director of a museum. I mean, hey, the current director of the American history museum, the Smithsonian ... American History, she went to my high school so, I mean-
Rachel Jimenez:
Wow.
Kerri:
... things happen from-
Rachel Jimenez:
That's amazing.
Kerri:
... so it's like "All right, if she can do it ... she's got, like, 15-20 years on me. I can work towards it."
Rachel Jimenez:
Absolutely. Well, this has been such an inspiring conversation. I appreciate you so much. Thank you for taking the time during this pandemic to chat with us. It's been a pleasure.
Kerri:
Great. Thank you guys for having me.
Megan Elledge:
Thank you.
Rachel Jimenez:
Thank you.
Megan Elledge:
If you enjoyed this episode and want to support this podcast, here are three easy steps. One, subscribe to the podcast. Two, leave us a review on iTunes. Three, know someone who could benefit from this podcast? The greatest compliment you can give us is sharing this with others. From Studio B3 at Claremont Graduate University, thank you for listening. We look forward to seeing you back here on How Did You Get That Job?
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Maren Dollwet Waggoner (PhD, Organizational Behavior, ’13), senior director of human resources at Walmart, talks with “How’d You Get That Job” and examines what it was like growing up in Germany and Poland, immigrating to the U.S., and earning her PhD in just three-and-a-half years. Draw from her experience as she explains how she worked her way up the corporate ladder. Gain insightful tips on being a self-starter, thriving as a student—international or domestic, and seizing new opportunities.
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Interested in learning how to get a job at a major tech company like Microsoft? Join us as we chat with Aleina Wachtel, program manager II at Microsoft. In this episode, Aleina shares how she excelled during her interview with a highly competitive company. Listen as she shares specific tips on how she negotiated her offer to get over $75,000 in additional benefits by simply asking a few easy questions.
Episode Transcript:
Page 1 of 18
Aleina Wachtel:
It's so important for all us, women especially but I think everybody, to talk about these kinds of things
because it's only in the benefit of the employer that we all keep it taboo. So I've coached so many
people, I've actually helped about five to eight people who have now come into Microsoft after me to
negotiate with their offers, and they all 100% have been successful.
Rachel Jimenez:
Wow.
Aleina Wachtel:
So I have a pretty good track record, but for me it's about knowing your worth and using some sort of
leverage point.
Rachel Jimenez:
I'm Rachael Jimenez
Megan Elledge:
And I'm Megan Elledge.
Rachel Jimenez:
Welcome to How'd You Get That Job, a podcast from Claremont Graduate University about successful
careers and the stories behind them.
Rachel Jimenez:
Aleina, I'm so excited to have you on our show. Thank you so much for being here today.
Aleina Wachtel:
Thank you so much for the opportunity.
Rachel Jimenez:
Oh, no problem. So, you're an alumn from Claremont Graduate University's mathematics program and
you are currently a program manager II at Microsoft. Can you talk about what that means and what you
do as a program manager at Microsoft?
Aleina Wachtel:
Absolutely. So, program managers, as I've spoken to people before about this, there isn't a major for
that, and so it's kind of one of those disciplines that you learn a little bit or a lot of it on the job. But
essentially what a PM does, abbreviated PM, is the liaison between the technical side of the business
and the business side of the business. So, it can manifest in a lot of different forms, but the way that we
talk about the PM role is you have to do everything that you can to make the program or the initiative
successful, and so I'm often working with engineers and data scientists to enable some sort of capability,
depending on the team.
Aleina Wachtel:
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Page 2 of 18
So, I'm on the data insights in growth org, so the data team for Microsoft Office, and what we do is build
platforms and tools to enable the rest of Office to be data-driven. So, in my job we are working with
both the partner teams, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, et cetera, and getting their requirements, and then
we're working with the engineers and data scientists to make that happen, all in service of our
customers at the end who are using Office products. So PMs are the little mini CEOs of different
capabilities or features of whatever tooling that we have at Microsoft.
Rachel Jimenez:
Okay, and then how do you use what you studied at CGU on the job, or do you?
Aleina Wachtel:
That's a great question. So am I writing equations on a whiteboard? Not exactly, but I absolutely have to
use my problem solving, critical thinking and technical skills as a PM, and it really helps that I'm on a
data team specifically because it feels like I have the vocabulary to be able to speak eloquently on the
things that I'm working on with data scientists and engineers. So, if they're building something for
example that allows specific metrics and different pivoting of data sets for a particular capability or
feature that's being created in Word, for example, I can then say, "Yes, we need to work with the
experimentation team and say that we need to have a bigger sample size for this to be statistically
significant." And I know what that means because of the math background that I have. Also, just as a
side note, having a master's degree I think has really helped me in my career both in negotiation and
being able to kind of come in to the entry level position with a little bit more background than I would've
if I just stopped after going to Harvey Mudd.
Rachel Jimenez:
So you mentioned negotiation. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What kind of negotiation?
What did you do to leverage?
Aleina Wachtel:
Absolutely. So, that's an area that I'm really passionate about because when I was lucky enough to be a
student at Harvey Mudd where I did my undergraduate studies they talked a lot about how women
historically are less likely to negotiate their offers than men are. I don't want to necessarily spend time
on going into the why, but I felt obligated on behalf of women to make sure that I negotiated my offer.
Rachel Jimenez:
Not this woman.
Aleina Wachtel:
Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It was crazy because I'm the first person in my family to go to college, and
when I got the first offer from Microsoft to work full-time, and it was six figures, and there was like a
signing bonus, and stock. I was blown away, there was a lot of happy tears and crying, and I couldn't
believe it because I was going to be making essentially more money than both of my parents combined,
but I knew I needed to negotiate because that was something that had been instilled in me as incredibly
important. My parents thought I was crazy. They were like, "What are you doing? Don't do that." But I
said, "No." I'm lucky enough to have a lot of mentors in the career services both at CGU and Mudd who
were like, "You got to do this."
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Page 3 of 18
Aleina Wachtel:
So essentially all I did, and I give a lot of coaching on this, is you go into your call with the recruiter.
They've given you the offer, this is the opportunity for them to answer all your questions, and I always
say start off with some warmup questions. What team am I going to be on? What's the manager like?
What's it like to live in the Seattle area? Write down a bunch of things that make you comfortable,
you're warming up, you're able to kind of make sure that you're at a good place to actually do this
conversation, and it also puts the recruiter in a place where they're thinking, "I'm so helpful, I'm just
answering questions." And then you ask the pivot question.
Aleina Wachtel:
So you've asked all the easy questions and then you do the pivot. So I was wondering, how exactly were
the figures determined? And then the recruiter will say something along the lines of blah, blah, blah
business needs, standardizes the salary for level, blah, blah, blah, it doesn't really matter what it is, but
they'll give an answer. Then you say, "Well, I just wanted to know if my, insert leverage here, is being
taken into account." And so that was literally all I did. It was two questions. It was how were the figures
determined, and I wanted to know if my master's degree was being taken to account since I know that
many other applicants are coming in with a bachelor's degree. The recruiter was like, "Oh, you know
what? Let me go double-check. Don't sign anything. I'll get back to you in a couple of days." And they
had come back and that offer, I'm going to be super transparent here, so it was a salary that was
nonnegotiable because, again, that is standardized for the level, but that's fine, but the incoming stock
award went from $60,000 to $120,000.
Rachel Jimenez:
It doubled, wow.
Aleina Wachtel:
Just because I said, "Hey, I have a master's. What are you going to do about that?" And the signing
bonus went from $10,000 to $25,000. So the reason I, one, am super transparent about the numbers is
because it's so important for all of us, women especially but I think everybody, to talk about these kinds
of things because it's only in the benefit of the employer that we all keep it taboo, and so I've coached
so many people. I've actually helped about five to eight people who have now come into Microsoft after
me to negotiate with their offers, and they've all 100% been successful. So I have a pretty good track
record, but for me it's about knowing your worth and using some sort of leverage point. That can be a
master's degree, that can be a dual degree. I have a friend of mine who did the 3-2 Program with Harvey
Mudd and Claremont McKenna where they studied business and engineering. So I said, "Hey, that's
awesome. Bring that up." Sometimes it's a competing offer, sometimes it's your minor, you have this
other capability that maybe other applicants don't have. So, try to be creative on what the leverage
point is and it never ever hurts to ask, because the worst thing that they can do is say, "Sorry, it's
nonnegotiable but we're still really excited to have you." They're not going to rescind the offer.
Rachel Jimenez:
Exactly.
Aleina Wachtel:
Which is I think one of the fears that my parents had. So, I get very excited about that topic.
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Rachel Jimenez:
That's amazing, that was so insightful. I really appreciate you sharing that with our audience and being
transparent about the numbers.
Aleina Wachtel:
Absolutely.
Rachel Jimenez:
One quick question about that. Were you afraid? Were you nervous at all going in, asking that question
or were you ... I mean, you seem like a very confident woman, were you just like, "I got this, I'm going
for it"? Had you practiced with anyone?
Aleina Wachtel:
I'm going to be honest, of course I was nervous. This is the only full-time offer that I had. I didn't have
leverage of specifically other offers, but I think I was lucky enough, again, from my education and the
resources here at CGU and Mudd that I had confidence during the call.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Aleina Wachtel:
Leading up to the call, yes, incredibly nervous, but once ... I'm also a singer, so an analogy that I'll bring is
right before you actually are on stage singing, it's gigantically fast, insane heartbeat and you're just
sweating, and I'm coughing, and I'm nervous, and then as soon as I sing the first note it's just I'm at
peace. I feel similarly, because as a PM that entire job is all about influence, and being able to work with
a lot of different personality types and again, specifically influence without authority. So people hear
manager, they're like, "Oh, so you're a manager and you have direct reports." No, no, no, no, I manage
the program and everything that needs to happen for it and to end, but there's a lot of moving parts and
a lot of people that you have to work with for that to be successful. So, you're kind of managing the
team without actually being able to be their boss or tell them to do anything.
Aleina Wachtel:
That's why I think my technical skills really help and my technical education because how do you build
credibility with engineers if you aren't able to speak at least at a high level their language. And can
people be in the PM discipline without a STEM degree? Absolutely. I think it's incredibly important for
the workforce to have a variety of disciplines and backgrounds, but I will say at least for me in my career
journey it's just been incredibly helpful to have that because it's something I can lean on, something that
can help me speak the language, and it's fundamentally what gives me confidence in those kinds of
conversations, and it's again, the first note has sung, now I'm in my zone and it ends up being okay.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right, that's amazing. Well, thank you for that. So, we know what a program manager does. We know
how you got that job a little bit, but can you take us back, how do you go from ... I'm just thinking when
you're maybe a 16-year-old and you don't know what you want to be when you grow up, or maybe you
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did, can you go back and give us a breakdown of the journey that led you to becoming the program
manager at Microsoft?
Aleina Wachtel:
Absolutely. So, like I said, it's not a major, it's not one of the careers that a parent comes into
elementary school and it's like, "I'm a program manager." You think when you're a kid fireman, or
firewoman, a policeman, policewoman, nurse, teacher.
Rachel Jimenez:
Nurse, teacher, things you can see, right?
Aleina Wachtel:
Exactly. So it's not a discipline or career that people necessarily think of, and I myself didn't even know
what a PM was until my senior year of college. So backtracking a little bit, as the first person in my
family to go to college and knowing from my incredible parents the importance of education I had
always worked really hard as a student and thought that I was going to get a PhD from the age of 10
because the idea was that if I'm going to go to college I'm going to really go to college and I'm going to
max it out. But I went through a bunch of math and science classes, eventually was able to go to Harvey
Mudd and did actual summer undergraduate research, and it was incredible. It ended up resulting in a
publication that actually just came out in the Involve mathematics journal, but I realized that I couldn't
see myself doing academia type work in the future long-term because I just wanted to be around a lot of
different types of people, and I'm more of a breadth person rather than depth, and that's what I love
about the PM roles because you have to know a little bit or a medium bit about a lot of things, enough
to be dangerous, without being super deep in one area. Research is fundamentally about being really
deep in a particular area, especially getting a PhD.
Aleina Wachtel:
So, I went from thinking I'm going to get a PhD to it's senior year, I'm having a quarter life existential
crisis saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm not going to get a PhD. What am I going to do with my life? I just got five
years back, what's my next step?" And lucky Claremont Graduate University had this incredible four plus
one program where I was able to get my master's in one year in math, so it gave me a little bit more
time and also more skillset to be able to be successful in industry, but what specifically in industry was
the question.
Aleina Wachtel:
I had a good friend of mine who had been an intern multiple times in the Bay Area as a software
engineer, and he knew me really well, and he had actually worked with other PMs at different
companies like Yelp and other startups and such, and he said, "Have you heard of program
management?" And I looked at him and I said, "No, what's that?" And he said, "Well, you're the liaison
between the technical side and the business side, and it's a lot about communication, and explaining
technical concepts in layman terms." And my eyes light up and I was like, "Oh my god, that sounds
amazing. Please, sign me up." And I worked incredibly hard to research everything I possibly could. I
highly recommend Cracking the PM Interview. It's the PM version of Cracking the Coding Interview, a
really common book that people are reading to get ready for tech interviews, and it was enough for me
to get this internship at EA, Electronic Arts, the video game company in the Bay Area, and I loved being a
PM that summer. It was the summer between my bachelor's and my master's.
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Aleina Wachtel:
I learned what it was like to actually do the things that my friend had told me about, the things I had
read about in that book, but I knew that fundamentally I wanted to be closer to family. I grew up in
Washington State and living in California for five years for my education was an amazing experience, but
hard because I didn't have the funds to be able to go back, so I only saw them at Christmas time and
sometimes during the summer. So I missed five years of Thanksgiving. Then my mom, she had been
working on her bachelor's degree for over 30 years, and she finally finished it and I wasn't there for her
graduation because I couldn't afford to go back to Washington State and see her graduate, and I was
doing research at Mudd that summer at the time and I couldn't go back. So, I knew that never again did I
want to be that far away, and I didn't need to be in my small town, but being in Seattle was a good
distance away where I'd be able to see them more frequently, and so I was incredibly lucky to get a first
round interview with Microsoft.
Rachel Jimenez:
Can you talk about that? How did you get that interview?
Aleina Wachtel:
Yes. So it was, again, the timeline here is second semester of senior year, which would've been 2016,
and I went to the career fair desperately looking for an internship, because that summer between
bachelor's and master's was open. I was handing my résumé out like cookies. I was just saying, "Hey, any
PM positions available for internship I'd love." EA ended up being the place that I got the offer and did
my internship at, but I went to Microsoft's booth and I said, "Hey, are there any internships available?"
And again, this is the spring, so they said, "Oh no. We've already finished or filled up all of our roles for
this summer." Because they tend to do the majority of the recruiting, not all of it, but most of it in the
fall. I said, "Okay. Well I guess I'll just go somewhere else. And they were like, "No, no, wait. We'll take
your résumé if you're interested in full-time for summer 2017." Which was like a year and three months
away. Well, like, "Okay. See you never." Give them my résumé and I walk away.
Aleina Wachtel:
I end up going through the whole interview process for EA, get the offer, and then I get an email from
Microsoft. I never even applied, and they were like, "Hey, so we saw your résumé. We're thinking hey,
we're going to be on campus in April or May timeframe, do you want to have a first round 30 minute
interview?" And I started freaking. I'm like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Yes. I don't have any PM experience
yet, but yes. Yes please." And again, back to Cracking the PM Interview and reading things online, and
talking to other people. Another thing that was really helpful was using other alumni resources. I found
someone who had graduated at least from Harvey Mudd who had become a PM at Microsoft. So he
spent an hour and a half with me on a Skype call saying, "All right, this is what you can expect." And I
was doing all this preparation, and then it went well enough that they said, "Cool." It was only 30
minutes, it was in a classroom in Harvey Mudd, they did the interview and then they said, "Awesome.
We'll see you four months from now for your final round interview." Which they don't really do that
anymore, but it was this perfect thing where I was like, "Awesome. Exactly what I need." Because guess
what's happening in that four months? My internship.
Aleina Wachtel:
So first round interview with Microsoft happened, then I went to that internship in the Bay Area, and
that entire time was studying for my final round, because I knew that I was going to be interviewing in
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Microsoft later. After the internship I then came back, started my master's at CGU, and then they flew
me up to Seattle for four and a half hours of interviews for final round. I had all that experience from EA
and also doing clinic and other types of PM skillset demonstrating roles to get the job. It was this
amazing thing, and I never ended up having to apply anywhere else because I had that interview lined
up ahead of time.
Rachel Jimenez:
Wow.
Aleina Wachtel:
It reminds me of something of that I also want to speak to that is another thing that I give a lot of advice
to when I'm mentoring a lot of early in career folks. Specifically when you are interviewing you don't
have to have exactly the same title over and over again on your résumé to have the experience. So what
I mean by that is a lot of people come to me saying, "How do I break into the PM field?" Because it's
hard to get PM internships. There are so, so few of them in comparison to software engineering
positions. So, let's say you're lucky enough to get one, but even then you only have one on your résumé,
like I only had one. So how do you have enough experience to get the job?
Aleina Wachtel:
The way that I always advise students to talk about their work is to think about the skillset that you want
to demonstrate and be able to come up with a compelling story from a variety of experiences, whether
that's internships, research, side projects, classes, extracurriculars, even being the president of a
association or club.
Rachel Jimenez:
It could be volunteer, right?
Aleina Wachtel:
Exactly. Those kinds of things can be told in a compelling way, such that you can then say, "I have the
skillset to be successful as," insert whatever you're applying for. So, I'll give you a concrete example of
something that I used. So, when I was a student at the Claremont Colleges I was the president of
SACNAS, the Society for the Advancement of Chicanos and Native Americans in Science, given that not
only am I a first gen college student but also my mom is an immigrant from Mexico. So, I was really
passionate about bringing underrepresented minorities into STEM. In that position I had to solo organize
funding from five different undergraduate colleges to send 12 people to Washington, D.C., and it was a
lot of work. It was having to go and work with different dean of students offices, different departments,
sometimes the math departments or the STEM departments themselves provide the funding. It was all
over the place, and this was for, again, five different colleges. So, I was able to speak to that experience
and say, "Hey, I have all of this experience doing a lot of work where you have to coordinate with a lot of
different organizations."
Aleina Wachtel:
Then another one that I like to talk about is research. People don't think, "Well, I can't speak about my
research if I'm looking for an industry position." But here's the thing, you can if you tell a good enough
story. So, I told you I had two summers of math research under my belt. One of them was mathematical
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neuroscience and one of them was mathematical psychology. So, there's a pattern here. So, I spoke to
how I love working in interdisciplinary fields where I need to be able to understand a variety of different
roles and concepts and work cross-functionally across many different types of teams.
Rachel Jimenez:
Which is exactly what a program manager does.
Aleina Wachtel:
Which is exactly what a program manager does. So it's all about thinking what are the things that I need
to be able to do well in this role and how can I speak to that, even if I don't have the exact role under my
belt, and it worked.
Rachel Jimenez:
Obviously.
Aleina Wachtel:
That was enough. That was before the final round, right? That was in the first round. They were like,
"Why do you want to be a PM and what makes you think you'll be a good PM?" Right?
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Aleina Wachtel:
I've only ever done research and clinic, so I kind of had done some industryesque work as a student, but
being able to say I can work across different groups and have an understanding of interdisciplinary
environment, cross-functional teams, et cetera, that's the thing that you want to be able to do. So, I
always recommend students get good at telling stories for any type of experience they have, whether
it's internship, research, club, et cetera.
Rachel Jimenez:
You mentioned a couple of experiences that you've had. So you had that internship at EA and then you
were ... Was it a club that you were a volunteer of? Is it the [Panis 00:19:21]?
Aleina Wachtel:
Yeah. No, so SACNAS is-
Rachel Jimenez:
SACNAS.
Aleina Wachtel:
... we had a Claremont College's chapter of an organization that's across the whole country, but yeah,
that was something that ... I also was in a cappella, in competitive a cappella for five years, and that's
one little fun tidbit that I put at the bottom of my résumé, but it's not something that I can really speak
to for relevant experience.
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Rachel Jimenez:
So besides those things listed and some of the research that you did in college, were there other things
that you leveraged to help tell your story of what you could do or is that pretty much the experiences
that you had that you would think helped you get your job at Microsoft?
Aleina Wachtel:
There was really only one other, so again, there was the internship at EA, the two summers of research,
and the fourth thing that I used was my experience being a team lead for my clinic project. So, for those
who aren't familiar, clinic is the capstone experience that you can choose to do at Harvey Mudd, where
instead of writing a thesis, which I already knew I didn't want to do because it's really similar to just
doing research again, you are working for a company with about four or five other students to solve a
problem. So, it's like getting an internship but you're getting school credit instead.
Aleina Wachtel:
So, what I was lucky enough, I was on engineering clinic, but this team had students that were CS
majors, math CS majors, math majors, and engineering majors. So you've got kind of, again, crossfunctional
team. I was the lead of this team for the first semester, and we were asked to optimize the
manufacturing processes of Pharmavite, the vitamin company. So we would have liaisons from
Pharmavite come to us, we had teleconferences. I was the one who had to do a lot of project
management role here, where that is subtly different than program management because the way that I
like to explain the difference, program managers are kind of having more of a vision and a driver's seat
of what we're going to do and why we're doing it, whereas project managers excel at the how and the
execution, and kind of breaking down the different steps that we're going to do to make it successful.
But you absolutely need project management capabilities to be successful as a program manager. So, I
was able to use my experience leading this team of several other students and also answer a lot of
things that are behavioral questions.
Aleina Wachtel:
So, in an interview you're going to get something like tell me about a time that you overcame an
obstacle or had to deal with conflict or something like that. I remember one of the things that I
answered was we were first essentially acting as consultants in that semester that I was a lead, and we
were looking for an existing software tool that would serve the list of like 18 requirements that the
company had. So, with all of that in mind we were looking at a lot of different tools and we found the
dream tool, and I'm telling you, it had all 18 plus the wish list items for this company, but the problem
was it was like 10 times outside of their budget, I mean, really expensive.
Aleina Wachtel:
So, most of my team was like, "I don't know if we want to waste our time going and talking to this
company because it's so expensive." But as the lead I was able to say, "You know what? It never hurts to
ask. We should just take the meeting, see what we can do." And so we take the meeting and they got
really excited because we were all Harvey Mudd students and they had kind of heard about the clinic
program. So, almost on the fly I was able to say, "Oh, so are you looking to do more partnerships with
students in universities?" And they said, "Absolutely. We're doing something with Cornell right now."
And I said, "Cool. Well, maybe are you able to give us a discounted version of this tool under the
promise that you'd be able to be a future clinic partner for the company?" And they said, "Absolutely."
And so, while that ended up not manifesting because really true to life in industry, the after winter
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break Pharmavite said, "Oh actually, we need you to build the tool ourselves, we don't have really a lot
of funds to be able to invest in the tool that you picked for us."
Aleina Wachtel:
And we completely changed gears and did a totally different project, which was a great experience and
something else that I could speak to of like when something didn't go according to plan, but at least
leading into winter break that experience was incredible because I was like wow, we're able to leverage
and talk about other future partnerships, and I convinced the team to do something that maybe they
were not as excited to do, maybe a little hesitant to do, and that was influence without necessarily a lot
of authority, and being able to speak to experiences that you've had that, again, demonstrate the skillset
of the job that you're applying for.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Megan Elledge:
Are you inspired by these stories and the amazing work our alumni are doing in the world? If so,
consider giving to CGU to support future generations through student fellowships. Simply go to
CGU.edu/give to make your donation today.
Rachel Jimenez:
Perfect. So, switching gears a little bit. Do you think your parents inspired your career in any way?
Aleina Wachtel:
I would say that they've inspired so much in my life that of course it trickles into my career. They didn't
have the same educational opportunities that I have been so fortunate to have, and so they always
instilled the importance of education. So, it's because of them, because of the drive they gave me and
the passion that they gave me that I was able to be as successful as I have been because they always
told be how important it was to do well in school, and because of that I was able to then go to a place
like Harvey Mudd, and then CGU, and eventually build the skillset to even be surrounded by people who
could tell me about this role. Because I think about if I had gone somewhere else, you never know,
right? It's the what if, but if I had gone to a different set of schools maybe I would've still become a
university professor, I never would've learned about program management or thought that I would be
able to be in tech because, again, I never had any computer science background until I went to Harvey
Mudd. I'd never really heard of computer science because they didn't have CS classes in my high school.
Aleina Wachtel:
It's because of incredible teachers, and mentors like Maria Klawe and many of the professors that I had
at both Mudd and CGU that told me about all the things that you can do with a math background,
because here's the thing. I cannot tell you how many times I've been on an airplane and I'm sitting
down, and I was a student at the time, and you'd strike up a conversation, they'd see that you were a
student. They'd ask you what you're studying and I say, "Oh, I'm a math major." And two things always
happen. Number one, "Ugh, oh my god, I was so bad at math growing up." That's the first thing that
everybody says. Then the second thing is, "So, do you want to be a teacher?" Or sometimes, "So, you're
going to be an engineer?" And not like computer science engineer, but like mechanical civil kind of
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engineer. That is to the average person the two career paths, other than maybe being like an actuary or
something, that you can become if you have a math background.
Aleina Wachtel:
So, that gets ingrained to you when you're growing up as a student. You can be a teacher or you can be
an engineer, maybe you can be an actuary or an accountant, but that's it. That's what you can do with
math, and maybe at other places that would've been even more reinforced, but I felt that with my
education at both Mudd and CGU that I had enough role models, enough alumni, enough professors
that knew oh, no, no, no, a math background is actually incredibly versatile.
Rachel Jimenez:
Absolutely.
Aleina Wachtel:
Because it teaches you about problem solving, and critical thinking, and also communication because
you need to be able to explain things in writing very clearly in mathematical research. So it's not just
about numbers, it's also about words and how you communicate, and that is one of the most important
skillsets that anyone can build, regardless of your discipline and what career you go to, is being able to
communicate effectively. So, I think that that's ultimately what allowed me to be able to have the job
that I have today.
Rachel Jimenez:
So, what sparked your interest in studying math?
Aleina Wachtel:
I think it was just, it's a combination of innate ability I think, but also supportive environment to
continue. So, I'm a big believer of the growth mindset. So, for those who are not as familiar, Carol Dweck
at Stanford University coined this awesome concept of the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. In
fact, she was the commencement speaker at my graduation at Harvey Mudd. Fixed mindset is the belief
that you are born with certain talents and capabilities and that's exactly what you're good at, and the
things that you're not good at you're bad at, and that's just the way it is. I would say that it's not
completely false in the sense that obviously we all have things that we are kind of better at than others,
but to say that therefore you can only do those things is pretty limiting.
Aleina Wachtel:
The growth mindset is the idea that with enough hard work and enough investment in time you can
actually improve, and there's a delta of whatever your baseline was to be good at that thing. So, the
reason I bring it up is yes, I was good at math in middle school, but if I didn't have teachers and later on
professors, especially most of the time they were male, who didn't support me and make it seem like I
was good at this thing and that I was going to be successful in it, who is to say that I would've continued.
Aleina Wachtel:
That's also the same with my parents. Growing up there was never a doubt that I was good at math and
science, and there was never like that's a boy's thing or that's a thing that you can't do. One of my dad's
favorite stories to tell, which always embarrasses me a little bit, but I think it's a great thing to bring up
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here, is he went back to get his associate's degree in his late 40s, and at the time I was 12 years old and I
was taking algebra with one of my favorite teachers to this day who I still talk to, my seventh grade
algebra teacher, Mr. Graham. He's now since retired, but we still keep in contact, which is awesome. My
dad needed to take a placement test to be able to get into college algebra for him to be able to continue
with the nursing program that he was doing at the time. So, he asked me to tutor him in math. So what I
did is I took my homework assignments from Mr. Graham's class, extra copies, and I would teach him
the things that I was learning. Over time, I was able to give him enough that he was able to pass that
placement exam on the first try and he jumped right to college algebra. That's the kind of male role
model that I had, where my father-
Rachel Jimenez:
No ego, right. Yeah.
Aleina Wachtel:
Exactly. He was like, "My daughter is awesome at math and I'm going to ask her to help me do this
placement exam."
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Aleina Wachtel:
And to be that supported so early on, now that I've become very passionate about bringing
underrepresented groups into STEM, is not the norm. I realized that so many people and so many girls,
and so many especially Hispanic girls, are not being told that this is something that they have a potential
career in, and to have that happen was this incredibly formative experience for me, and it's something
that I look back really fondly. I love my dad so much and he was so great about making sure that
anything that I was good at, I could excel and continue to do.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right. So, why did you choose to attend CGU? Was it just because of the four plus one program?
Aleina Wachtel:
I would say that's mostly the reason, but I also didn't just apply without talking to the professors. So,
Professor Percus actually was the person that I met with when I was a junior at Harvey Mudd because I
was interested in potentially doing this program. I'll be super candid here, the reason that I was looking
to do a master's is because I struggled a lot at Harvey Mudd. I went from going to high school for two
years and then community college for two years with a perfect 4.0 and an associate's degrees by 17 to
failing my classes at Harvey Mudd and having to retake classes, and be on academic probation pretty
much six or seven semesters out of eight.
Rachel Jimenez:
Wow.
Aleina Wachtel:
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So, Harvey Mudd is incredibly intense, and I knew that I probably wasn't going to get into a PhD program
because of my GPA.
Rachel Jimenez:
Okay.
Aleina Wachtel:
So I knew that I needed to get a master's, and CGU was this awesome program that was in the area that
I already was familiar with, had professors that I could meet with ahead of time, and there was also the
benefit of it only taking one year, and therefore reducing the cost. So, when I met with him he was so
encouraging and gave me a lot of insight into what the program was like, and he ended up being one of
my teachers that I actually had in the program.
Aleina Wachtel:
To this day he's someone that I still reach out to whenever I come back to the Claremont Colleges to
recruit because I know that Harvey Mudd is often targeted by tech companies because it is a STEM
school, but I try to extend the invitation to CGU students as well through Percus, or Allon, and he will
then send the email out to the distribution list on email for all the math majors and stuff, and have them
come to my events, and they have come to my events. So, I think that was a great demonstration of how
great the professors are at CGU and how they're really invested in not just building in your success when
you're still a student but also after. Since I've graduated, they still keep in contact, and Prof Peng is
another one.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Aleina Wachtel:
He was a great professor of mine. So, I'm very grateful for that experience.
Rachel Jimenez:
Perfect. Well, thank you, and thank you for continuing to send those invites to our students. We
appreciate that.
Aleina Wachtel:
Yeah, of course. Of course.
Rachel Jimenez:
So, what advice ... You've already given a lot of advice, but is there any additional advice you would give
to someone that is interested in following in your footsteps, perhaps working at Microsoft?
Aleina Wachtel:
Absolutely. So, one of the pieces of advice that I was lucky enough to get from actually a pretty senior
female PM at Microsoft happened within my I want to say first six months at the company. So, I had
wanted to go to Grace Hopper and I had gone to her, she was my boss's boss at the time, Heather
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Pfluger, she's amazing, and unfortunately all the spots were taken at that time, because I had started
right after registration. But since I had gone to her saying I really want to go to this conference she
actually saw that there was this great conference called Women In Product, which by the way, anyone
listening, I highly recommend. It's this incredible conference for female PMs, both product managers,
program managers, et cetera.
Aleina Wachtel:
She invited me to go with her. She was like, "Hey, I couldn't get you into Grace Hopper, but why don't
you come with me to Women In Product?" And it was at this conference after all of the workshops and
talks, we went out to dinner. Again, I'd been at the company for like maybe three months or something,
and she asked me, "So, long-term, what do you want to do?" And I looked at her and I thought I was
being all brave and I said something along the lines of, "Oh, well, I'd love to have your job some day."
And she looked at me and she said, "Ugh, you're thinking way too small, girl. Way too small."
Rachel Jimenez:
What was her title at that time or what was her role?
Aleina Wachtel:
Well, at the time she was a principal program manager, but now she's an organizational leader and she
is even more senior, which is awesome. But she looked at me and she said, "If you're aiming for that,
that's way too low." Because in my head I was thinking, "I have to think of something realistic. I have to
have this big North Star that's like something that I could actually do." But she was able to tell me to
reframe your long-term career goals as the somewhat unobtainable or the very big North Star, because
if you set limits to only go to the moon, you're only going to get to the moon, but if you can go for super
far out in the universe, who knows how far you'll go. Maybe you'll make it, maybe you won't, but if you
set the limits on yourself to something that's a realistic goal, that is so fundamentally holding yourself
back.
Aleina Wachtel:
I realized I had a pattern of doing this, because when I was in high school I almost didn't apply to Harvey
Mudd. I was like, "Oh my goodness. I don't know if a place like that is going to take me." I didn't have the
best SAT score. I had like multivariable calculus and a college degree at 17, but I didn't have a great SAT
score because I didn't have family members who had done the SATs, and I didn't have a tutor, and I only
took it once, and I didn't really study for it. I didn't know what you were supposed to do to do well at the
SAT.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right, you didn't know all the hacks, yeah.
Aleina Wachtel:
I didn't know all the hacks, and that's essentially what anybody who's coming in as a first gen for
anything really knows. It's like you don't have the hacks. Someone along the way was like, "You got to
apply. You're kick ass. Do it." And so I applied, and oh my god, I got in. Then when I was at Harvey Mudd
I was like, "Oh man, I don't know if I could work at a place like Microsoft. I mean, that's one of the best
tech companies in the world." And then along the way someone's like, "What are you doing? Just apply.
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What's the worst that could happen?" And now I work in Microsoft, right? So you have to make sure
that you're not just setting these limits for yourself. It's because of her that now I have the goal of one
day being an organizational leader. I'm going to try to be an executive. You know what, why not?
Rachel Jimenez:
Love it.
Aleina Wachtel:
Because I have so much that has been taught to me through my mentors and sponsors, and one of my
biggest goals is if I could reach that level of influence and authority in an organization like Microsoft, I
could pass on all the things that I've learned to so many other people at a much more multiplier level,
right? So that's I think why I have this new career goal of eventually going the managerial route and
working up to being a leader because before I was limiting myself to being maybe mid management, but
why not go for the top?
Rachel Jimenez:
Go all the way, love it. I love that advice, and I really appreciate the conversation we had earlier about
negotiating, so I think those together are so powerful, so I appreciate that.
Aleina Wachtel:
Absolutely.
Rachel Jimenez:
We just have a few more minutes. Are you ready for some on the spot questions?
Aleina Wachtel:
Sure.
Rachel Jimenez:
Okay. So first question is, what has been your biggest career mistake?
Aleina Wachtel:
Oh man. I will say that when you are early in career, especially I think in the PM discipline since there
isn't a major or like a handbook for it, you kind of just learn on the fly, one of the things that you might
accidentally do is absorb the habits of the people that you work with who are more senior than you. I
did that a little bit, but I was lucky enough to have some folks who kind of pulled me away from it,
because the idea is just because someone's more senior or experienced than you doesn't mean that
they're doing their job better than you. That's one of the things that I've had to learn, is when you go
through your career you have to figure out as you work with people that are more senior than you that
you're shadowing often, what are the things that you want to bring into your toolbox and what are the
things that you don't want to do?
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
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Aleina Wachtel:
And this isn't to say that people around you are just bad at their jobs. No, no, no. What I'm trying to say
is sometimes everybody has a different working style and you have to figure out what your own style is.
So you want to figure out oh my gosh, I really admire this person and I want to kind of take that part of
the way that they work and bring that into the way that I want to do my work. Then maybe there's
someone who's a totally different style, maybe you're not going to do something that's similar because
that's just not something that works for you, and kind of in your early career and mid career, and as you
progress, there's always someone who is more senior than you, right?
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Aleina Wachtel:
Kind of figuring out the things that you want to copy and the things that you actively aren't going to
copy is kind of one of the things that I maybe fell into the pitfalls for ... I was just copying everything.
These people know what they're doing, I'm just going to do it [crosstalk 00:38:10]. Now that I'm more
senior, I'm a PM II now, I've been at the company for a handful of years now, and I'm still learning this
obviously, but kind of figuring out what's going to go into my toolkit versus not.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right, perfect. Love that. What's your favorite memory from attending CGU?
Aleina Wachtel:
Oh man. I'm going to go real vulnerable here. So, I had a really rough last semester, and I remember I
was in Prof Percus's office and I was crying. I was like, "I need help." Or maybe this was when I was still a
student at Mudd, and it was overlapping because I was still taking classes at CGU, but it's all a blur
because now it's been a few years since I graduated.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right.
Aleina Wachtel:
But one of my favorite memories was just like how supportive he was, because I was so overwhelmed
with the workload, and I was far away from family, and there was kind of some stuff going on with my
family at the time. He just gave me grace, and I really, really appreciated being given the flexibility to
maybe have a little bit more time on that project, or have some more time to do office hours. Again,
everybody that's listening, please go to office hours. They are cheat codes, they are hacks, they are
amazing, because when you're in high school you're like, "Oh man, going to a tutor or office hours that's
because I'm the dumb one who doesn't understand." But once you go to college or graduate school, no,
no, no, it's like the best students who go to office hours.
Rachel Jimenez:
Exactly.
Aleina Wachtel:
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They're the ones who are actually taking the time to come meet with the professors and get everything
that they need.
Rachel Jimenez:
And they can take you as an example, those are the people that get the really good jobs.
Aleina Wachtel:
Yeah.
Rachel Jimenez:
What's the worst career advice you've ever received?
Aleina Wachtel:
I would say that it wasn't exactly verbal advice, but it was kind of, again, a style choice that I've learned
from not to do.
Rachel Jimenez:
Okay.
Aleina Wachtel:
So, I once had someone talk about, after they left a project. So, they left and they kind of laughed and
they're like, "Look at everybody, they're all floundering, and the ship's on fire. Look how much they
needed me." Then I had someone later on tell me oh, no, no, no, no, no, the best leaders are the ones
who can peace out and just leave, and then they come back and it's operating incredibly well because
you didn't bottleneck things, you didn't hold things in your head that other people needed, so when you
leave you kind of just left everybody at a loss. No, you come back and they're kicking butt, that means
you enabled your team to be successful with or without you. This is something that I think a lot of folks
can be really scared of, because they don't want to be replaceable.
Aleina Wachtel:
They want to feel that they are absolutely fundamentally needed and that they have information that
nobody else has, and so therefore I am always going to be around and I'm so needed, but that's
dangerous because ultimately I think we're moving, especially in the tech industry, across all companies
to a more collaborative model, less competitive. Try not to bottleneck things, try not to withhold
information, and being better about documenting and sharing everything that you know with the rest of
your team is ultimately going to make you even more irreplaceable, because you are a team player and
you're not someone who is holding information back. So, that's something that I had to also learn.
Rachel Jimenez:
Right, love that. Who is your favorite CGU faculty member?
Aleina Wachtel:
I mean, I feel like I've mentioned him multiple times, but Prof Percus, but also Prof Peng is really, really
great. I just haven't had as much contact with him after graduating, but they're both awesome.
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Rachel Jimenez:
Okay, perfect. Thank you. Then last but definitely not least, and you may have mentioned this a little bit
but you can go a little bit more in depth into it, what's your wildest career aspiration or dream?
Aleina Wachtel:
Oh yeah, I definitely had a spoiler there earlier, but I think just to become an executive and to be able to
... I think it's one of those answers that a lot of people might have or people might hear it and say, "Oh
well, that's kind of presumptions of them." And that you have to be very nuanced, I think for me at least,
in expressing why. So, am I the kind of the person who is driven and wants to have this big goal?
Absolutely, right? And I think those of us who can identify with maybe a type A personality, we like
being in control, and we like being able to have authority and have influence, and I think it's one of the
markers that people often associate with success. But what I've come to realize through my time in
Microsoft, and I will continue to work on and learn, is the best leaders are not the ones who tell people
what to do, it's the ones who listen, and it's the ones who fundamentally want to understand, I don't
want to say what their constituents need, but kind of the constituents, or their directs, or their
organization, or whoever you're leading, and it's about kind of, again, that growth mindset, thinking
about the things that you want to improve on and constantly iterate on.
Aleina Wachtel:
I feel like I've learned a lot of these kinds of principles early on in my career, that then I think will make
me a really effective leader later on because I have that empathy, and I have gone through a loss and
had managers who have been incredibly supportive, and I have gone through academic hardship and
had professors that were incredibly lenient or grace giving. So, for me that's the kind of leader that I
want to be, is one with kind of open arms, very authentic. I'm a very open person, I'm very happy to
share my stories. I'm kind of an open book, and I want us to have more leaders like that, especially
women, especially Latinas, especially like you, right? In the industry, and I want to be one of those
people so that I can then go to Grace Hopper, or to Women In Product, or to all these conferences, to
come back and do podcasts like this, to go to middle schools, and high schools, and volunteer with
organizations like TECHNOLOchicas or whatever, right? And to inspire the next generation of our
technologists.
Rachel Jimenez:
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it, and I think this will be a very
valuable podcast for our listeners.
Aleina Wachtel:
Thank you so much, it was my pleasure.
Megan Elledge:
If you enjoyed this episode and want to support this podcast, here are three easy steps. One, subscribe
to the podcast. Two, leave us a review on iTunes. Three, know someone who could benefit from this
podcast? The greatest compliment you can give us is sharing this with others. From Studio B3 at
Claremont Graduate University. Thank you for listening. We look forward to seeing you back here on
How Did You Get That Job?
Have you ever dreamed of being a rockstar? Are you curious about what it takes to make it as a musician? Join us as we chat with Ian Fowles, guitarist of The Aquabats! about his unique and interesting career path and how he has managed to make a living doing what he loves since joining The Aquabats! in 2006.
For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
Want to work at a museum? Learn the ins and outs of the museum world in our interview with Victoria Gerard, the Vice President of Collections and Special Exhibitions at the Bowers Museum.
For a transcript of this episode, email cgupodcasts at gmail.com and include the episode title.
Episode Transcript:
Victoria Gerard: I think just to be a 21st century human these days, it's like the world is smaller, so just being able to have relationships with people face to face, where everything is done online, is increasingly more important.
Rachel Jimenez: I'm Rachel Jimenez.
Megan Elledge: And I'm Megan Elledge.
Rachel Jimenez: Welcome to How Did You Get That Job, a podcast from Claremont Graduate University about successful careers and the stories behind them.
Megan Elledge: Victoria, thank you so much for being here. We're excited to chat with you today.
Victoria Gerard: Thanks so much for having me. It's always great to come back to Claremont.
Megan Elledge: So, when I told Josh Good, who is the Associate Professor for Cultural Studies in History at CGU, that we were making a podcast, he instantly recommended you. And after reading more about you and your career, I definitely see why. At a young age, you're already a director at the Bowers Museum, but I know that path wasn't easily, especially in the museum world, where the morbid joke is, you basically have to wait until someone dies to rise up in the ranks, and a lot of that time, you have to work for free.
Megan Elledge: So, can you give us a brief breakdown of the journey that led to you becoming a director at the Bowers Museum?
Victoria Gerard: Yeah, I'd be happy to. We'll just say, as you mentioned, the museum field is kind of a weirdly difficult field to break into. I think that that maybe is changing. Since I entered the field, I think there's a lot more talk about inclusion, and equity, diversity. But beyond that, I think a lot of people in my age group are starting to be frustrated with the experience of being so exclusive, when a museum is kind of an inclusive community space.
Victoria Gerard: So, for those of you listening, maybe in your journey there'll be some more flexible times ahead. But you know, I was thinking on my way, my drive over here to Claremont about my journey. And as a child, I didn't have much exposure to museums. I grew up in New York City, but kind of in a family that didn't always have the means to do those kinds of things, or we were just kind of focused on saving for college, and it was kind of a luxury to do something like a museum.
Victoria Gerard: So, when I had gotten to college, I wasn't even thinking about working in museums. It wasn't on my radar. And I was really focused on a political science major and becoming a speech writer. I think that was the dream at that time, and I wasn't happy, and I didn't feel fulfilled in that. But I had been doing a work-study job as a gallery assistant. It kind of just happened and it felt right. I started doing that pretty early on in the college career.
Victoria Gerard: And of all things, an environmental science professor kind of became a mentor. It was a typical core, as Villanova called it, a core arts and sciences class, so I took environmental science. I think I was at the end of my sophomore year, and I was still feeling lost, and this professor kind of shone the light, like, well, you know, you really like history, you talk to me about it a lot. Museums are research centers, you're kind of thinking about academia.
Victoria Gerard: And that blew my mind, because I never really thought about a career in museums at all, like I said. I think there was a push towards an academic career for me from my advisors, from an early point, when they kind of identified me as having a certain aptitude. So, I had been taking history courses, and I just decided to kind of change my focus and declare as a history major to see where that would lead. And I was not abandoning the academic career. I was staunchly thinking that I'd go right to a PhD program after my undergraduate work.
Victoria Gerard: Because, I should say, I was educated on the East Coast, born and raised, and I think things, especially in the museum field, are a little bit more traditional, let's say, there. So I was pushed towards that path, even though I was starting to do internships. I was in the greater Philadelphia area, so it was a great place for history and for cultural centers. So, I was able to intern and work for awhile in Independence National Historic Park, so I had some government park service experience. There's so many different old institutions there, the libraries.
Victoria Gerard: And I did a fellowship in New England, at historic Deerfield, so everything was very much so like very traditional American history focused, and I was focusing on public history at the time, which at that time, the discipline was really focused on history in the public space, and memory, and how the public interacts with it. So, what better for being in a place like Philadelphia, where you're surrounded by history.
Victoria Gerard: So, I ended up specializing in early American federalist period furnitures and ceramics, and was pursuing that, again, through these fellowships. And I had talked to a lot of people. As you mentioned, I got that old adage, if you want to be a curator, someone has to die. People were telling me, "You're not going to make a lot of money in this field, so you have to be committed to me." And I, I think at a early age, was having this kind of crisis still about this field, which is how I entered it, and I felt that although I enjoyed my specialty academically and pursuing that at the PhD level, that I just didn't see any substance in it for me anymore.
Victoria Gerard: So, while I was doing that graduate work, and I had pursued it, I decided that I wanted to do something different, and if I was going to commit to the museum field, that I had to experience it in a different part of the country, with a little bit of a different focus. So, that personal and professional interest, plus some other things going on in my personal life kind of spurred me to move to California and circumstances aligned. And of course, what did I do but applied to UCLA for another PhD program, which I am happy to say I didn't get into, because I ended up at Claremont a couple years later.
Victoria Gerard: But when I came out to California, I worked for a artist, I was doing tutoring, just really trying to break into the museum circuit here, doing anything I could, which is not easy, as we mentioned. And I landed at the Bowers as a volunteer of sorts, since I was not in school anymore, and was lucky enough to get hired on a temporary basis after being a volunteer for awhile, and I really grew there. I've been at the museum for almost 10 years come this September.
Victoria Gerard: So, it's been a really great place to be, and through that work experience, I found what I was looking for, obviously, to commit to this field, which was that things are a little bit more flexible, definitely in the SoCal arts scene, but in the museum world, and I think people in California in general are willing to take more risks about content, and social kind of issues, and institutions.
Victoria Gerard: And I really, where my heart was lying was administrative and management perspectives in the museum field, and I learnt about the arts management program at CGU, and the rest is kind of history.
Rachel Jimenez: So, that's an amazing breakdown of over 10 years of your past, so I want to dig a little bit deeper, because you said a lot of amazing things, and I'm sure our audience is going to want to hear more. So, you mentioned that your first job that was kind of in this field was being a gallery assistant when you were in college. Can you talk about how you landed that, even if it was just kind of serendipitous?
Victoria Gerard: Yeah, so I needed to do work study. It was offered to me as part of my financial aid package. I went to Villanova University for undergrad, and that weird grad work time I mentioned. And so, I was scanning the opportunities and gallery assistant was on there. It seemed really interesting. Again, I had had this underlying interest, but solidly in history. Like I said, I wasn't someone who was into European fine art, and going to museums, and taking art history in high school. That was never me. So I wanted to learn more about that.
Victoria Gerard: And there was this really wonderful older woman who was the assistant director of the gallery. I think it was her pseudo retirement job, and she was a really great mentor and kind of opened my eyes to the very small but storied gallery at Villanova. And they were getting a new database for their collection at the time, so they actually have an art collection, and they would do these special shows they take proposals for from living artists.
Victoria Gerard: And so, just as a work study student with no experience, I was transferring collections records from PastPerfect to an actual certified made gallery software. So that is a really crucial skill to have in this field and in understanding. So, I kind of luckily stepped into that.
Rachel Jimenez: It sounds like you had a great mentor there. Was that before or after the environmental science teacher recommended-
Victoria Gerard: Before. That was before or at the same time.
Rachel Jimenez: Around the same time? Okay.
Victoria Gerard: Someone also said to me once. I think it was a friend of a professor that worked somewhere in Philly. He connected me, and he had been in the museum world. And he said, "I'm going to tell you what someone told me, that this field is serendipity, Victoria. It's all serendipity." And you hear a lot of people's stories in this field, little things like that happen to lead you.
Rachel Jimenez: So, is there any advice you could give, if it's all serendipity, how could someone follow that? But I also, I'm looking at your background. It sounds like you said something about trying to break into the museums once you got to California, so can you dig into that? I'm sure there were some actionable things that you did, that other people could replicate.
Victoria Gerard: Sure. Well, I think it's serendipity with a little help from yourself, a lot of help from yourself, you know? And it seems like such a vast field when you're standing on the outside of it, but compared to other industries, it's a very small field, even when you consider the colleagues we have internationally. And there's always kind of that weird six degrees of separation thing going on with people.
Victoria Gerard: And so, just knowing other people, I even hesitate to use the term networking, but knowing other people and talking with people is really important. I never met a museum professional that doesn't like to talk about themselves or help people. They tend to be really nice people, and it's a labor of love. It's a nonprofit industry, specifically for museums, not the arts at large always. But if you're doing this kind of as a career, it means that you have a passion for education, or history, sharing that with the public, what have you. So, professionals are generally pretty open to sharing their stories and talking.
Victoria Gerard: So, you just have to keep talking to people, and meeting people, and going to conferences, or exhibits, or whatever, and keeping yourself sharp on what's going on in a field that large, or just to explore. You know, if you don't want to be an expert on what's happening in LA museums, just what interests you and seeing what's going on. So, that's really important.
Victoria Gerard: And it is, from my perspective, for a collections or curatorial job specifically, it is still an academic position. You need to have a strong basis in writing and research, and every museum is a little different, which is maddening. It's part of why it's so hard to break into, and everyone's looking for some different qualifications. But you still need to have your feet grounded in that academic discipline. So, if you're already in school thinking about this, you're doing that. And school, graduate school, undergraduate, it prepares you to have the language to speak to the people that you might want to reach out to about this field.
Rachel Jimenez: And when you're reaching out, does that look like a formal informational interview, like what we recommend, or is it just asking someone to lunch, or an email, and you just ask them some questions in the email
Victoria Gerard: Sure. I think it's always best to start out with a more formal approach. I get a lot of requests like that, and if someone just reaches out to me without any chatter beforehand about why, I have to always kind of skeptical, just because I also get a lot of people that are trying to get me to exhibit their artwork, or people that might want to make a donation to the collection at the museum.
Victoria Gerard: So, and a student, especially a graduate student knows no age limit. So, it's always kind of nice to know the intentions upfront, also because I keep mentioning nonprofit, labor of love, that comes with being overworked and not having big staffs, and that kind of thing. So, for anyone listening, the person you're emailing will appreciate it if you just lay it all out, this is who I am, this is why I'm contacting you, this is why I'd love to chat with you. And then you can see where it goes from there.
Rachel Jimenez: Right, perfect.
Megan Elledge: So, is that what you did for the Bowers museum, with volunteering? I mean, [crosstalk 00:13:08]-
Victoria Gerard: So, with the Bowers, I had been to the Bowers on a visit previous to moving to SoCal, and it felt like the right place. I mean, Orange County isn't as diverse in its arts and culture offerings as LA. Now it's getting there, but at the time I felt like it was the best place for me to be to grow professionally, as the largest museum in Orange County.
Victoria Gerard: So, I submitted an application and just kind of bugged them every week until they got back to me, which is something that I'm sure other people in this podcast have mentioned or will mention to you, is like that persistence factor. And now being on the other side of receiving those applications, I totally get it why I didn't hear right away, but you have to stay top of mind or people are busy.
Victoria Gerard: So I kind of called, and called, and called, or emailed and emailed, and finally the application got to the person it was supposed to get to, and again, the rest is history. But you know, persistence while being professional.
Rachel Jimenez: So now that you're on the other side of that, are there people that call and call, or email and email, and do you ... One, does that happen, and two, if it does happen, do you see that as annoying, or are there some that are annoying and some that you're like, wow, this person's persistent, I need this person working here?
Victoria Gerard: Well, so, I honestly rarely see as much persistence as I would like to with some things. I mean, there are people I have seen persistence with maybe that have interned and then they make an effort to keep in touch, which is also nice, because it's one thing for you to just be listed as a reference, and it's another thing for people to at least try to keep up a relationship with you before asking you for something.
Victoria Gerard: So, that's a different kind of persistence you need once you finish an initial internship opportunity, to get you to the next step. But people can be very persistent, and we have a really great person that manages the applications, that if someone has emailed a couple times, she'll send them my way. But sometimes, we just can't take as many interns as people would think. It's a full time job to manage them as well.
Victoria Gerard: So, if it seems like someone is really interested, my team and I try to at least meet with them, and then you establish that connection. So, just about respectful, and like I said, professional. I think that's the key.
Megan Elledge: Got it.
Rachel Jimenez: So, you mentioned, I think this is a funny story I want to dive into a little bit more, that you applied to UCLA for the PhD program and you're happy that you didn't get in. But then, how did you end up at CGU? So, were we just the second best or can you talk about why CGU?
Victoria Gerard: No, so, I didn't know about the CGU program at the time, so, of course, as a East Coaster, my now husband at the time was enrolled in USC for grad school, and I was just kind of tooling around and found this culture and performance PhD at UCLA. And for the life of me now, I really can't understand why I would do such a 360 from like a very traditional, I told you, like early American material culture program to this culture and performance. I don't know. But it was kind of like a wild quarter life crisis or something.
Victoria Gerard: But you know, I think I was just trying to throw things at the wall and seeing what would stick, and just kind of get involved in an academic environment. And actually, it's an even funnier story, because my now husband, at the time we weren't married, he started out at CGU, in like a politics or some kind of master's program he had, politics and economics or something. So, I had been here before I moved out here when we were dating and that sort of thing, but I just never thought, I saw the computer museum in the building. Like, I just never put two and two together.
Victoria Gerard: But I'm glad, because after being rejected by UCLA, I had some time to really, again, kind of explore more of a work environment out here, and I mentioned the arts and culture related jobs I was doing, but not everything else I was doing to make ends meet out here, and it got me familiar with the Orange County and greater LA landscape for sure. I learnt how to drive on the freeway, which was also really horrifying.
Victoria Gerard: So, at the time, the arts management program was really looking for people that had a certain amount of work experience, and I'm glad, I can't remember why or how it popped up, but it did. It was before Google was feeding you things and recommending you things, so I did find it on my own, but I was able to find a great more deal of more experience to bear into the program, to the benefit of myself and my colleagues, you know, hearing from my colleagues.
Victoria Gerard: So, that's what attracted me to the CGU program, was the fact that I would be bringing professional experience. It was in partnership with the Drucker school, and Peter Drucker is so huge in nonprofit management, in management in general, but especially in the nonprofit world. So, I had heard of him. Our president at the Bowers always talked about Drucker, because he led a retreat for our board.
Victoria Gerard: So, it felt like fate again, a serendipitous twirl of events. And you know, I really, as I mentioned, wanted to try to get more experience to lead me to a more administrative path in museums. I was starting to get interested in how all the cogs in different departments worked together to produce this program for the public. And then, on top of that, my job at the time at the museum was starting to manage these complex international partnerships we had, and budget for these exhibits.
Victoria Gerard: And I could always hear my dad's voice in the back of my head as an undergrad, like, "You should do that summer business minor that they have at Villanova. We'll pay for you to do that." I'm going to write and I'm going to ... I'm not going to use that business skill as a PhD, Dad. It will be totally fine. So, it was also attractive because it was nested in the school of management, and the curriculum was based in finance, and marketing, and all of these business skills I didn't have as just a straight arts and culture person.
Victoria Gerard: And I will say that even though the program was definitely aimed at the time at not necessarily you being able to be an accountant, or a financier, it was aimed at you be able to manage a CFO or an accounting clerk, whatever. It gave me the skills I needed to make a better budget to propose an exhibition, or to be more accountable for the expenses for an exhibit.
Victoria Gerard: And that is what propelled me, not to this job I have now, but to an associate curator, I think it was Associate Curator of Special Exhibitions and Research, because I was able to professionalize those skills that as an arts and culture professional you learn on the job instead of in school. So, the grad program at CGU gave me advanced arts skills, built on those skills I already had, but it also provided me a baseline foundational business practice.
Rachel Jimenez: Absolutely. For our listeners who may not know who Peter Drucker is, can you just talk for two seconds about that?
Victoria Gerard: Sure. Peter Drucker, we call him the father of modern management. There's the Drucker School at Claremont kind of dedicated to his principles of management. I think it's easy for us to think in this world, especially as millennials or younger, although I had those terms, as management being something easy. But if you talk to your parents or other bosses that are baby boomers or matures, my dad always says that it was like a real wild, wild west management style when he was in the work force as a young man.
Victoria Gerard: So, I think people like Peter ... Well, Peter Drucker himself for sure, and then people that followed after him massaged these ideas of how to effectively manage your employees to get a desired result. But the reason that it's such a big deal at Claremont is also because he had a broad kind of transdisciplinary view of business and management, and how different sectors can work together to each other's benefit.
Victoria Gerard: So, at the time, I think the Drucker School, and probably still very much is ahead of its time, having this art business and arts management program in a business school, and all different kinds of other programs to stay true and pay homage to Drucker's beliefs.
Rachel Jimenez: Right. And then, one more question about Peter Drucker and the Drucker School, but how do you think having that background and what you learnt through Peter Drucker has impacted the career that you have today?
Victoria Gerard: Sure. You know, this is one of the things that makes me most grateful for my graduate degree. Now that I do manage a team, I was able to retain this information. But I mentioned very briefly about older generations, and management, and I think younger people, anyone younger than 30 maybe or 35 and younger, get a bad rap about being un-manageable, quote-unquote. But I learnt a lot in graduate school about managing up, and managing down, and managing across, and just kind of the mindset of what makes a business work, and how do you kind of manage the culture of an organization. What was it, organizational culture, I guess, was a class that I took, and that was really incredible.
Victoria Gerard: And again, as a working professional, I could take actual situations in the journal we had to keep, and kind of try to dissect them and manipulate the circumstances. So, no matter what field you're in, I think you need to be able to effectively manage everyone in the work environment, and it kind of sounds tricksy in a way, but it's not. It's just management of relationships.
Victoria Gerard: I think often times younger people don't really understand that you need to put effort in above, and below, and across to succeed, and Drucker was really open minded about those kinds of things, and has really been the number one key to my success, is learning how to manage those relationships through those philosophies.
Rachel Jimenez: Beautiful, thank you.
Megan Elledge: As you know, I'm a history student at CGU and I've noticed history students are getting more and more interested in learning business practices. Why do you think this trend is happening?
Victoria Gerard: Well, I think a couple things are happening, and I can speak to. Over 10 years of experience in the field have shown me that the gap between a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization and a for profit organization is growing less, and less, and less. So, tangibly, from a museum perspective, you see things like the museum of ice cream, the museum of pizza, or things that are called museums that are really just pay for play, you know, to get your selfie taken, experience some, sorry but I'm going to say it, really bad art. You know, do it for the gram.
Megan Elledge: Right, exactly.
Victoria Gerard: And personally, I will say, I think the sprinkle pool at the museum of ice cream was the most brilliant art installation, so props to whoever did that. But the business world has blurred the line of what a museum is, and you have a couple of other things going on.
Victoria Gerard: When I entered the museum field in the recession, I was lucky enough to get that job at Independence Hall, I mentioned. But a lot of people weren't. There was a lot of cost cutting in curatorial departments especially, which were so massive, and museums had to really fight for people's disposable income. So, that created a world of lackluster exhibitions, which has kind of spiraled down to these engagement opportunities.
Victoria Gerard: Also, when I was coming out of undergraduate, public engagement started being a term, a buzzword that we would talk a lot about in museums, and before then, the museum experience was very passive. So, you also have this confluence of, if you want to say, museology kind of changing to be more of an active experience, but also the expectations of visitors and just the people in this world at large being more active and engaging because of technology, and social media, and the recession, and if you're going to spend money, it'd better be worth it, that sort of thing.
Victoria Gerard: So, museums have kind of, maybe not now but in between the recession and now, seen a boom in attendance because of some of these things, because of an increase in disposable income. So, I think a lot of places, and I'm not talking about the big guys like LACMA, and The Getty, Guggenheim, but a lot of solidly medium sized museums kind of had to operate more of like, okay, how are we keeping the doors open.
Victoria Gerard: And when you're in that mode, because you don't have a lot of contributive revenue, right, you have to really think about return on investment, and who's paying the electricity bill, while also the challenge of a 501(c)(3) is maintaining a certain balance of your expenses and your accounts that are all focused on programs.
Victoria Gerard: So, I think all of that is to say it's become necessary because of those things that have happened in the industry, to understand business a little bit more. But the very frustrating things about museums, I mentioned before, is every organization is structured differently, so there are still places that say, and even I have felt this and seen this, because even though I've been at the Bowers, I have interviewed and attempted to grow with other organizations, the master's in management is not always seen kindly by traditional museum folks.
Rachel Jimenez: Wow, interesting.
Victoria Gerard: Yeah, so, I have a lot of curatorial skills, a tremendous amount, but I don't have that PhD. So if I'm applying to a traditional chief curator job, I would likely not get that job at most places because I do not have that PhD. And that business skill is kind of looked at as a cheapening of that academic background that you need.
Victoria Gerard: And of course, I have the greatest amount of respect for people with PhDs, and for academia as a institution, but I don't always think that you get the full picture. You can't just finish a PhD in art history and then be able to run a curatorial department.
Megan Elledge: Have you considered getting a PhD?
Victoria Gerard: I have, many times off and on. I make a joke, but not really a joke, about going to grad school for this Claremont program while I was working full time. Like, I could never do that again as a mother, and now as a senior level staffer, because it was really difficult and I did it before children and before I had as much responsibility at work.
Victoria Gerard: I think if I really wanted to, I could make it work. But again, I think you can kind of sense, with the trajectory that I've been on, that I don't think that quite frankly, the PhD will be worth my investment of money, because it is so expensive to go back to school, and I don't think I ever will have one of those very traditional curatorial jobs again.
Megan Elledge: Got it. Yeah, I was just thinking you'd be such a powerhouse if you had the PhD with the arts management and that management background.
Victoria Gerard: Maybe when I retire.
Megan Elledge: There you go, yeah.
Rachel Jimenez: So, what advice would you give someone that wanted to follow in your footsteps?
Victoria Gerard: Sure. I think number one advice I always feel obligated to give because it was given to me is to make sure that you understand it's not a high paying gig, especially in the curatorial realm or collections management realm, so just kind of know that. What I tell people that ask me that question is, intern as much as possible in different experiences so you know that this is what you want to do, because it's not as glamorous. I mean, it's glamorous, I love it, but it's not what you see on TV, as nothing is, right.
Victoria Gerard: So, the internship is a crucial first step, kind of like your entry level job, but do it for you. And I would also say the same for graduate school. It's a product you're buying essentially, an investment in your future, so make sure that it's the right program for you, that is actually going to lead you to the job that you might want, and get all you can out of it.
Victoria Gerard: At that same time, while being a student, really use that student status to reach out to people. I always feel a little bit more inclined to speak to students or recent grads, because I was there and I understand the angst of trying to figure out where you're going and if something fits for you. So, reach out to as many people as you can, and go to as many of those events that are sponsored by Claremont for you, grant writing workshops and everything, because it's really important.
Victoria Gerard: And just try to develop a professional persona that is still you, but that's comfortable with talking to strangers and meeting people at those events, because it's crucial to work together in this industry, the museum world, and I think just to be a 21st century human these days. It's like the world is smaller, so just being able to have relationships with people face to face, where everything is done online, is increasingly more important.
Rachel Jimenez: Absolutely. I've noticed in the art world, I've come from a business background strictly, without the art side that you have. And so, business people are always taught to network. But then, getting to know a lot of our art alumni, I realized that they are a powerhouse. Like, the MFA program and the arts management program, they network like no other businessperson I've ever seen.
Rachel Jimenez: So, I think if you have that mix of the MBA networking and the marketing, or the arts networking world, and you really understand that, it can be very powerful. But it is very important in the art world.
Victoria Gerard: Yeah, and I think it seems hard and scary, but it's just, especially as an adult, if you're going back to school, it's just being yourself and being comfortable doing that. And again, when you're a student, it's a safe space to experiment, because people know you're a student, and I kind of feel like it's lower risk.
Megan Elledge: With that said, when you were a grad student, what did you do to make genuine connections at events?
Victoria Gerard: So, for grad school, for me, I'll focus just on my West Coast grad school experience, it's a little different, and Claremont related. Because I was working, it was so hard for me to go do a lot of the events, but every time we had a speaker in class, I had my business card out and was ready to give it to them, not so much just to say like, "Yes, I got this card, another person on my LinkedIn," but just actually to genuinely connect with that person.
Victoria Gerard: Because the speakers that were coming into classes were incredible, and a lot of people don't go up to them and say, "Hey, thank you so much, blah-blah-blah." Or if they give you their email address on their slide presentation, just send them a note, because kindness, just kindness is important too, and they'll remember you, saying, "Hey, thanks so much. This is what I loved about your talk, blah-blah-blah." It makes them feel good, like they did something worthwhile. And ultimately, again, that's just a human kindness, I think, that gets you far in this industry for sure.
Victoria Gerard: So, that's important. Also, if you're doing any kind of job, even if it's not related to the arts, just kind of thinking about the people you're working with, vendors or clients and how your relationships are structured with them will help you put that into practice in your desired arts career, I suppose. So, that's really important.
Victoria Gerard: And if you're not a student or you're just started out as a student and you want to get an internship or something, the burden is on you, right? You've got to do the work to find the place you want to be, talk to the right person, to hound them if they haven't gotten back to you about the application, professionally, and just really figure out where you might want to experiment, because no one can do that for you.
Rachel Jimenez: Right, taking initiative.
Rachel Jimenez: Are you a CGU student or alum that's looking for career advice? If so, don't forget that you have lifetime access to free career counseling through CGU's career development office. Simply call 909-607-9022 or email career.development@cgu.edu to make an appointment today.
Megan Elledge: All right, let's get to our on the spot questions. Okay, so, what has been your biggest career mistake?
Victoria Gerard: Oh, that is a hard question. I don't know. I'd like to think, this is a canned response, but I'd like to think about every mistake as an opportunity. But what comes to mind is, I think it was while I was in school, maybe 2014 to 2015. I was managing a really big project. That was the first one that I had, and the budget just got out of control because I wasn't managing the client relationship as well as I could be.
Victoria Gerard: So, we ended up paying a significant more in shipping because ... It's very complicated, but let's suffice it to say that the person on the other end of the phone was new at this job as well. And so, sitting where I am now, it would've been incredibly easy to negotiate a different contract even, but you've got to make those kinds of mistake.
Victoria Gerard: That is just like a very specific career mistake, but I think maybe on the broader scale, I think taking myself too seriously, especially as an undergraduate, like especially starting from there. Because I think as you get older, you learn that life's a little bit more flexible and not as high pressure as you think it is, and I think if I was a little bit more relaxed, although it did get me out here and into what I have now, I could have had a little bit more freedom to experiment with different internships and that sort of thing.
Victoria Gerard: But I was always a little bit high strung, about making ends meet, and I had the need to know what I'm going to do. Like, I need to know, and you never know what you're going to do. So, I wish I could go back and tell myself, "You'll never know, so just go with it."
Rachel Jimenez: Right? Take a breath and keep moving forward, one foot in front of the other, right?
Victoria Gerard: Yup, yup.
Rachel Jimenez: So, what is your favorite memory from attending CGU?
Victoria Gerard: I have a lot of favorite memories, but I think my favorite memory was overall, Laura Zucker, who was the former Head of Arts Management, had a class, the Fundamentals of Arts Management. Maybe that's what it's called now. But regardless, it was kind of like a big round table class, where you really did everything you might as an arts manager in the safety of school. And in a group project, you had to create an organization throughout the semester.
Victoria Gerard: And my group of two awesome classmates, we came up with a organization called Concert Road Trip, which was basically like putting musicians and artists on a bus, and driving them around to public, kind of like flash mob performances, which I kind of feel like I'm dating myself, because that wasn't very popular in 2013.
Rachel Jimenez: I still want to be in a flash mob even though that's gone away. That's a life goal.
Megan Elledge: I know, right?
Victoria Gerard: And it was just kind of fun. Laura was a very serious and amazing businesswoman, and she scared all of us at some point, and we had one idea which she was just really hard on us for, and it was like the best ever experience because it really, again, in a safe place, helped you realize the true nature of like, this is also a business and working through it. But Concert Road Trip and everything that went along with it is my favorite memory of grad school.
Rachel Jimenez: Awesome, thank you.
Megan Elledge: So, what's the best career advice you've ever received?
Victoria Gerard: The best career advice I've ever received, again, from several different people and just from myself, is to not be so serious. And I have received that in more of a passive way. There's a book that my director, Peter Keller, gave me when I was in grad school. Can't remember the title, so sorry, listeners, but I'm sure you can find it through Google. It was basically, I think, the experiences of 12 museum directors. They were interviewed by someone.
Victoria Gerard: And Peter has been a mentor for me for many years, and he said, "This is related to your schooling. I got this. I think you would really like it." And one of the female directors, which are very few and far between, in that book said something basically to the effect of, if you don't realize that the workplace is just a game, then you're doing it wrong.
Victoria Gerard: And that kind of trivializes it because you do have to work very hard, but it is, again, like I said, going back to that Drucker talk about managing relationships, and if you can't show up at work and be like a nice person, and love where you are, and make it be like a game, I think you are doing it wrong.
Victoria Gerard: So, I've got her name written down in my planner, like in my notable quotable section, and even though I got that passively from many people, that was like the active experience of getting that advice, was from that book.
Rachel Jimenez: Perfect, and if you could send us that afterwards-
Victoria Gerard: I will.
Rachel Jimenez: We can put it in the show notes for everybody.
Victoria Gerard: Yeah, really interesting book.
Rachel Jimenez: So, what's the worst career advice you've ever received?
Victoria Gerard: I kind of want to say that the worst career advice I've ever received is what I've been repeating, which was someone has to die for you to get this job, because I think it talks about everything that's wrong with the field. And maybe that was more of an East Coast mantra, because it's very much so true in my experience at the time, could be different now. It was like an old boy's club in my industry, my specialization.
Victoria Gerard: And I don't think that advice like that helps anyone or helps the field move forward, and I think there's a lot of issues at play right now in the museum world, especially about salary, and in the academia kind of spectrum as well, about paying your dues, and you don't make money until a certain point, and blah-blah-blah. And I think that way of thinking doesn't help move the industry or make the people working very hard for the future of the industry, it doesn't incentivize them.
Rachel Jimenez: Right.
Megan Elledge: So, favorite CGU faculty member.
Victoria Gerard: Well, not just because he recommended me, but definitely Josh. Josh and I had kind of a funny meeting, because I took his, I don't remember the class, but it's like the intro to museum studies class. I needed an elective, and I set up a meeting with him because I said something to the effect of, you know, can I be in this class? I have all this experience and I don't want to annoy you or anyone else.
Victoria Gerard: And so, here I am, probably like this overconfident grad student taking myself too seriously as I talked about, and Josh was really nice. And yeah, come in, whatever. But as the semester wore on, I felt like he really ended up respecting my opinion as a professional, and allowing me to share things that he probably didn't count on being able to discuss, because of my experience and the real world kind of element.
Victoria Gerard: And it was really great to be respected that way as a graduate student and as a professional. And I think that's what's so special at Claremont. Another favorite Claremont memory is during commencement, when you are walking in and all the faculty is clapping you in. I've been to so many commencements, and I have never seen that, and I always felt like that was a huge respect moment. And that's so very true to what Claremont Graduate is about, respecting you as an adult, as a scholar, as a equal, and I got to see that through Josh, so, thank you, Josh.
Rachel Jimenez: So, last question, what is your wildest career aspiration or dream?
Victoria Gerard: Okay, well, something I really like to think about is, you know, the copyright office, let's say, just for example. At one time, the US copyright office had to get two copies of everything that was given a copyright, and I feel like I have this dream of these government warehouses with tons of like, dusty boxes and things left uncataloged, although I don't know, but I assume uncataloged.
Victoria Gerard: And that's my museum nerd dream, is just to go in and catalog all those things, and work with those kind of collections and government archives, not because it's anything secret, like the X-files or anything like that, no. It's just kind of like museum curatorial collections neurosis of wanting to organize stuff.
Rachel Jimenez: Well, serendipity has been a theme of this. So now that you've put it out there on this podcast, maybe it will come true.
Victoria Gerard: Anyone needs me to organize their dusty secret warehouses, you know where to find me.
Rachel Jimenez: Well, thank you so much. This has been an excellent interview. We really appreciate it, and I'm sure it will bring a ton of value to our listeners.
Victoria Gerard: Thank you, always happy to do it and help students, so it's always a pleasure.
Rachel Jimenez: Rachel here. The book that Victoria mentioned is titled Eleven Museum Directors: Conversations on Art & Leadership by Michael Shapiro. Also, I wanted to give you an update. Since our recording, we have some delightful news. Victoria has recently been promoted to Vice President of Collections and Special Exhibitions.
Megan Elledge: If you enjoyed this episode and want to support this podcast, here are three easy steps. One, subscribe to the podcast. Two, leave us a review on iTunes. Three, know someone who could benefit from this podcast? The greatest compliment you can give us is sharing this with others. From Studio B3 at Claremont Graduate University, thank you for listening. We look forward to seeing you back here on How Did You Get That Job.
Join us as we pull back the curtain and get a behind-the-scenes look at the unique, transdisciplinary, and inspiring careers of our CGU alumni. Our first episode is an interview with John Erickson, director of public affairs at Planned Parenthood.
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