Organic Wine Podcast: Recent Episodes
organicwinepodcast
Organic Wine is the gateway to explore the entire wine industry - from soil to sommeliers - from a revolutionary perspective. Deep interviews discussing big ideas with some of the most important people on the cutting edge of the regenerative renaissance, about where wine comes from and where it is going.
This episode is a conversation I got to have with Ariana Ross and James Sligh. Ariana you may remember from an earlier episode in which I talked to her about her treatise, Wine’s Way To Art, and James is the creator of and educator at The Children’s Atlas of Wine. This conversation is about what we talk about when we talk about wine, and it includes philosophy, history, politics, social justice, art criticism, and of course agriculture. You may learn some juicy historical tidbits that upend your understanding of what is classic or traditional in regards to wine, or some wines, and which wines get left out of these ideas and why. Rather than arriving at a consensus of ideas, I think we helped each other see the unanswered questions in each of our ideas, and we came away with a more expansive understanding of, at least, wine. And I hope you do too.
https://childrensatlasofwine.com/
@childrensatlasofwine
https://www.whoisariana.com/
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Beyond Organic Wine
My guest for this episode is Steve Matthiasson. This is the second time I’ve interviewed Steve, so I highly recommend listening to the first episode from about three years ago if you haven’t. Steve is the eponymous dude behind Matthiasson Wines, and maybe dude is the wrong title for Steve. He might be more of a punk rebel organic evangelist operating from inside the Cabernet Curtain in the heart of Napa Valley. Surprisingly for this podcast, you’re going to hear praise for James Suckling AND The Mondavi Family, and a hopeful outlook for classical wines in California despite climate change. But much more importantly, and less surprisingly, you’re going to hear numerous incredibly helpful technical vitiultural insights into how to farm grapes organically to make fresh, vibrant wines in an increasingly hotter world. Once again, I recommend getting out your notepad and pencil for this one.
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Beyond Organic Wine
How do we reconcile the need to take life in order to grow life and survive?
What are the consequences of not growing wine ecologically, first?
What does a vole infestation tell us about the human story?
What role does death have in our winegrowing?
Should regenerative viticulture, regenerative wine growing, attempt to reduce the amount of killing necessary to produce wine?
This episode and the others in this series took a lot of work to produce. If you'd like to support or sponsor them financially, this would be incredibly helpful to enabling me to continue to do this kind of investigating and reporting.
You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.
Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
Do humans have a vole infestation or do voles have a human infestation? This and other questions from this episode may haunt your dreams and have you wondering if maybe "regenerative winegrowing" is an oxymoron.
The big question of Part 2 of the Death In The Vineyard mini-series is "What are the regenerative solutions to all the things that want to eat our wine crops?"
In trying to answer this question Part 2 looks at the cultural assumptions, language, beliefs, and prejudices that inform the way we currently see and relate to all of the lives that feed on our vines and trees.
Get ready to take a wrecking ball to your ideas about Integrated Pest Management, not to mention your assumptions about snakes.
Additionally, you'll get a list of practical tactics for preventing or stopping vole infestations or other plagues of rodents.
Don't listen to this episode unless you're ready to be a global leader in regenerative winegrowing and regenerative agriculture in general.
This episode and the others in this series took a lot of work to produce. If you'd like to support or sponsor them financially, this would be incredibly helpful to enabling me to continue to do this kind of investigating and reporting.
You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.
Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
In this episode I get to talk to Abbey Chrystal, Ken Swegles & Cole Thomas of Madson Wines and Rhizos and Skyline Viticulture and a few other ventures.
If you haven’t heard of the Santa Cruz Mountains AVA, you’re about to be introduced to a wine region unlike any other. I didn’t realize how special it was until Abbey, Ken, and Cole began describing it, and they may know it better than anyone else because between them they farm, make wine, and sell wine from up to over 50 vineyards around the AVA and have initiated transitions to better than organic farming on many area vineyards.
The Madson Wines website says, “As a standard, all of the vineyards that we work with have been converted to 100% organic practices. We use only ecologically based pest controls and biological fertilizers including animal waste and nitrogen fixing cover crops to help regulate and maintain the health of soil microbes. Many of our vineyards were not organic prior to our adoption; we find that motivating vineyard owners to adopt organics is more rewarding than merely searching for growers who already understand its value. However, organic agriculture does not encompass all of the solutions for responsible agriculture. We must explore beyond the organic system to maintain and improve our surrounding ecosystems and communities.” It then goes on to talk about their goal to practice regenerative viticulture in an effort to help their farming evolve with the changing climate and mitigate the effects of climate change.
In addition to these very admirable farming values, these guys are kind, generous, and compassionate people with lots to share.
https://www.madsonwines.com/
https://www.rhizosconsulting.com/+
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Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
We’re going back to Michigan for this episode to talk to Andrew Backlin, the production mangager / winemaker of Modales Wines in Fenville, Michigan. You may have heard Andrew’s voice already if you listened to the first part of my special Death In the Vineyard series.
Andrew introduced me to a little known fact outside of Michigan. Michigan farmers produce over 300 different kinds of crops, making Michigan the second most agriculturally diverse state in the US… after only California.
Andrew tells the story of Modales’ transition from conventional wine production just four years ago, to fully organic for the last three years and now certified… growing mostly vinifera. Their vineyard went from dead, round-up nuked hardpan with basically zero organic matter, to living, thriving, healthy soils with worms and a 400% increase in organic matter. You can hear in his voice and enthusiasm that his participation in regenerating this ecosystem has lit him up, and it’s infectious.
On the other hand, he also doesn’t shy away from mentioning the big problems that still face winegrowers who want to do the right thing but who have inherited a large investment in vinifera in a temperate, humid climate that was made possible by chemistry.
I want to mention just one of those issues as a call to action. Andrew at one point mentions the fact that because something like 95% of the wine in the US comes from the west coast where we don’t face problems like black rot, very little research and investment has gone into organic controls for black rot specifically, and it is the main Achilles heel of organic viticulture in humid climates. While I of course think grape breeding should be a primary effort to solve this and other fungal issues, the reality is that many hybrids also have issues with black rot, and there are very few hybrids that can tolerate this fungus in very wet years. And Andrew brings up several other great points about why better organic sprays are necessary given the current wine culture… unless the USDA wants to invest millions of dollars on marketing to create a new wine culture that’s not chauvinistic toward hybrids.
Come to think of it, the USDA could sponsor this podcast to help with that effort….
A few other important things to know about Andrew… he’s a California native who moved to Michigan for wine. He gave me the inspiration and gentle kick in the butt to create the Beyond Organic Wine google group for anyone who is learning and trying to farm and make wine in more ecological, better than organic ways … and if you’d like to join, just log into google go to groups and search beyondorganicwine all one word with no spaces and ask to join. It’s a low key vibe community… no one is trying to sell anything, but we’re there when you have questions or important discoveries to share… and the more the merrier, healthier, and better at farming and winemaking we will be. So we hope to connect with you there.
Finally, I have tried Andrew’s wines and I they are wines I can’t wait to buy again, and not just because I want to support their leadership in Michigan organic viticulture. They are delicious, diverse, and interesting. Andrew makes what he calls “natural wines that you don’t know are natural” for Modales. He has some classic cool-climate single variety wines, as well as some blends of vinifera and hybrids, sparkling and orange. And if you’d like to try them or, in my case, re-try them, Modales has created a 20% discount code that is good until the end of the year. The code is MODALESBOW20 for 20% off wine purchases until the end of 2024.
And you can purchase those wines at Modaleswines.com
Now the one catch is that because of Michigan’s protectionist and litigious stance on interstate wine commerce, shipping is only available for those of you who live in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Florida, Arizona. The rest of us just need to go visit… apparently Michigan is worth the trip.
As Andrew talks us through both the hopes and the realities of transitioning to organic vinifera viticulture in his climate, there’s as much to learn as be inspired by. Enjoy.
Michigan is the #2 farming state in diversity of crops
https://farmflavor.com/michigan/michigan-farm-to-table/diversity-of-michigan-agriculture/
https://modaleswines.com/
You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.
Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
I experienced a vole infestation in a vineyard for the first time, and it has devastated my understanding of regenerative viticulture. In this first of a multi-part series called Death In the Vineyard, I talk to experts and winegrowers from all over the US about this adorable little creature, the vole, and the massive impact it has had historically and ecologically in our wine landscapes. As I follow the threads of truth that unravel before the voracious voles, they reveal some gaping holes in the fabric of our regenerative ideology. This episode and the ones to follow in this mini-series will question some of your most cherished beliefs and ideals about regenerative wine. If the regenerative movement is to survive, I believe we need to begin answering the questions that voles are asking of us.
This episode and the others in this series took a lot of work to produce. If you'd like to support or sponsor them financially, this would be incredibly helpful to enabling me to continue to do this kind of investigating and reporting.
You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.
Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
“Thinking like a vine,” is a motto that Paul Rolt and Jemma Vickers of Hebron Vineyard in Wales, UK farm by. Hebron Vineyard is the first vineyard in Wales — and the UK — to be Certified Regenerative by A Greener World (AGW). Paul and Jemma use no sprays or off-farm inputs to grow their vines – zero zero farming which preceeds the same kind of zero zero, raw and living winemaking. To do this they focus on creating optimal health and growing conditions for their Rondo and Solaris piwi varieties of grapes by using what is available on site. In considering what might be optimal for a vine, they implemented an arbustrum and have grown vines for four years in a living willow tree trellis system. The design of this system is ingenious and inspired by ancient practices. Willow has unique advantages both below and above ground, and Paul and Jemma’s vineyard is just one of the many styles of vitiforestry that showcase the deep and multi-layered benetfits of married vine polycultures.
The biggest critique that I can imagine for this kind of approach to wine growing is that it can’t be commercial because some years you won’t get a crop. When I asked Paul and Jemma about the problems of farming wine this way, they admitted they have limits. They know them and know they must work within them. That’s very different than the persptive that sees limits as problems that must be overcome by any means necessary, though. Both of those mindsets have consequences. In Paul and Jemma’s case they have prioritized ecological and psychological health, beauty and biodiversity, family and quality of life, and long-term resilience and independence.
@hebronvineyard
https://www.hebronvineyard.com/
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Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
An epic conversation with David Bos of @BosWine in Michigan, so I’m going to keep this intro short. Dave is a fantastic ambassador for Michigan wine, and yet he spent more than a decade growing and making wine organically and biodynamically in Napa Valley first. So his enthusiasm seems well informed, and I hope you find it as infectious as I did. Seen through Dave’s eyes, Michigan sounds pretty exciting. Even more importantly to me Dave is a fantastic ambassador for biodynamic and organic viticulture, so this conversation is LOADED.
https://www.boswine.com/
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Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
I’m delighted to share this conversation with Eduard and Stephanie Tscheppe of Gut Oggau in Burgenland in Austria. 17 years ago they started making decisions about how to farm and make wine that were not popular or even understandable to most of the wine world. It was a huge risk, maybe even a little foolish, and because of it, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say, they became one of the most loved and respected natural wine brands in the world, with unique approaches to nearly everything they do with wine. We talk about biodynamics, high density vine plantings, the magic of farming with horses, the creation of culture as agriculteurs, wine personalities, hybrids and ecological approaches to grape growing, planting trees and other perennials in, between, and around vines, making wine the same way the wine is farmed, the price and the cost of wine, the beauty of diversity, and so much more.
@gutoggau
https://www.gutoggau.com/
You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.
Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
Shelby Perkins farms grapes beyond organically in the Eola-Amity Hills of Oregon's Willamette Valley, and makes thoughtful wines of place. And speaking of thoughtful, Shelby seems to have lived several lives already. In one life she worked for the US Department of Energy doing technical research related to nuclear weapons and waste clean up. She was also once Science Policy Fellow at the National Academies, examining climate geoengineering. A trip to Antarctica changed her life and she began her life in wine and uncertainty and living in the outdoors. We talk about terrorist squirrels, climate change, what's going on behind the curtain, nuclear energy, growing grapes with voles, what to do about voles in the vineyard, renewable energy, biodynamic and organic viticulture, craving failure, how farming will kick your ass and save you, and how to transition from being a warrior to being an artisan. There's so much in this conversation because Shelby is a special person with a beautiful mind.
https://www.perkinsharter.com/philosophy
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Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
It’s my pleasure to present this conversation with Robin Snowdon of Limeburn Hill Vineyard. Limeburn Hill Vineyard is an innovative, ecological vineyard near Chew Magna on the edge of Bristol. It is the only biodynamic vineyard in the south west of England, and one of only a handful in the UK. In addition to farming biodynamically, Robin and his partner Georgina Harvey have a vision of their farm as a nature preserve, and really want to approach the land as a living being that we can care for and also connect with. Robin talks of dancing grasses and trees and vines trellised at a height that little sheep can graze beneath, with foxes and rabbits and a vineyard full of wildflowers, and the attempt to build the system only with what grows naturally. He discusses having an intuitive, emotional connection with the land and our opportunity as farmers help it achieve its greatest potential. He talks about how integrating ruminants brings joy to the land and those who visit it, and how that joy translates into the wine. They’re growing some really interesting grapes, some hybrids that we don’t have here in the US. We talk about their winemaking and how their approach to not letting anything go to waste results in some really interesting approaches to wine... And how small is beautiful and sustainable in an approach to a wine business.
https://limeburnhillvineyard.co.uk/
@limeburnhill
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Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
I’m really excited to share a conversation I had with Ariana Ross, a certified sommelier and the author of the book: Wine’s Way To Art: A Treatise on Wine as Art and Why Art is Something We Need to Be Human. It is such a pleasure to talk with Ariana because she has the unusual ability to entertain ideas and argue a perspective without getting her ego involved. Conversation is a tool that she uses to hone her own thinking and to move further down the path in the pursuit of truth. Because of that I could talk to her for hours, so this discussion feels to me like just the beginning of a much bigger conversation.
We delve into some pretty juicy topics including elitism in wine: how to separate that from expertise and acquired tastes and reverence, as well as questioning the idea of higher pleasures. We also ask whether it’s appropriate to refer to wine as art, and what it means for wine to be approached as an art. Among many questions discussed and unanswered, we discuss the importance of the canon of wine (one n, not two, as in the prime examples and archetypes) and whether a canon exists for other types of wine besides the commonly understood European grape wine. We don’t always agree, and that’s the fun of it…Ariana allowed us to explore these perennially important ideas through her book, which seems extremely timely, and the result was a dynamic and candid exchange that has left me looking forward to the next conversation.
@thesimplesomm
https://whoisariana.com/
You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon.
Or by donating or taking action at:
Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
Esther Park leads Cienega Capital, a private investment company that invests in food and farming enterprises that are helping to build a regenerative food system. This episode is about the unique criteria and ways of investing that Cienega Capital uses, and why it shouldn’t be so unique. If you are a regenerative farmer or if you are helping to build a regenerative food system – and I think Esther would include wine in this – you may be very interested to hear what Ester looks for in a good investment, and how you might become one. But everyone, whether you’re looking for a regenerative investment or not, should hear the questions Esther asks of all of us.
https://www.cienegacapital.com/
https://www.noregretsinitiative.com/
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Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
This episode is about growing Vitis vinifera wine grapes without sprays. Yes, it is possible. My guest is Paul Vandenberg of Paradisos del Sol Winery in Washington state in the US’s Pacific Northwest, and he has been growing about 5 acres of vinifera with zero sprays since 2012. Beyond this pretty amazing achievement, Paul has a remarkable wine career. He started by making wine with blackberries, and has been making a living in wine since 1983. He was at Badger Mountain Vineyard when it became Washington’s first certified organic vineyard, and he was at Worden’s Winery to produce the first organic wine in the state. He was an organic gardener before he could walk, and so maybe it’s a fitting climax to his life’s work to figure out how eliminate pesticides, fungicides, and anyothericides, whether organic or not, from his vinifera vineyard completely. And he isn’t growing some obscure, special vinifera with super powers… they’re Cabernet Sauvignon, Chenin Blanc, Sangiovese, Riesling, Tempranillo, Zinfandel, and more. And teaching us how to grow vinifera without sprays is only one of a handful of incredibly valuable insights that Paul shares.
https://paradisosdelsol.com/
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Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Megan Bell of Margins Winery near Santa Cruz California, and this conversation may cause you to have strong emotional reactions at times. That’s not a trigger warning, it’s a tease. Megan has hot takes on just about every topic related to wine, and I’m not shy about asking her some big questions. Most of all I think you’ll come to love Megan’s honesty and openness about her struggles and visions, some of the financial and business realities of her winery operations, and the state of the wine industry from her perspective. Her candidness is refreshing, and her dreams are inspiring.
https://www.marginswine.com/
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Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
Daniel Hess is the owner of Convivium Imports, which has one of the largest Swiss wine portfolios in the US, as well as unique wines from lesser known producers practicing organic viticulture (at minimum) in lesser known regions all over Europe. The wine he imports to the US reflects his multi-cultural background and his desire to represent a greater diversity of producers who put great farming first in the wine import market.
https://conviviumimports.com/
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Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Ben Falk. If you don’t know Ben, he’s the author of The Resilient Farm and Homestead, 20 Years of Permaculture and Whole Systems Design, which I would describe as THE homesteading manual and is the result of decades of Ben’s life in Vermont designing, implementing, and maintaining regenerative polycultures systems.
Ben is very well known in the permaculture world, but isn’t known so much in the wine world… which seemed a shame to me, as he has immense practical knowledge to share that would be useful to those of us growing wine. We cover many topics, as usual, in this conversation. From the state of the world, to learning how to design your life to be able to spend more time working in the land. And we get practical about many aspects of growing and maintaining fruiting perennials… which is my catch all term for grapes, apples, pears, berries, etc that we use to make wine.
I’ve been thinking a lot about how owners of smaller vineyards can incorporate grazing, since the larger ruminants like sheep and cows are difficult to keep in any significant numbers without a good bit of land. Ben loves working with cows more than sheep, as it turns out, and has some great suggestions about how to protect your fruiting perennials from them. But we also dig into geese, which are also amazing grazers for smaller vineyards and orchards, and have their own nuances, as well as ducks, chickens, fencing, livestock guardian dogs, and more.
Also, Ben has some beautiful things to say about mead making and has very much inspired me to consider mead making.
Ben asks us to consider resilience in our winemaking. What kind of winegrowing and making can we continue to do indefinitely? What kind of wine makes our land continually healthier and more lush? What kind of winemaking makes our lives happier and more energetic? What kind of winemaking can continue to nourish us regardless of the changing whims and trends of the wine market? I think you’ll find that Ben has some great insights into answering these questions.
https://www.wholesystemsdesign.com/
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Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
If you haven’t heard of Dr. Jonathan Lundgren and Ecdysis, you’re in for a treat. Jon is from the middle of this country and has seen the return of dust storms to our farmland. He was one of the most preeminent scientists in his field, but when he looked around at the farmland he passed as he drove through the Midwest, he saw that none of his achievements were making a difference. He wanted to effect positive change. Like most of you listening who see what is happening to your world, he wanted to make it better. So he did. I don’t want to over-hype him or the work he’s doing, but it may be unique in the history of the world. Ecdysis is undertaking one of, if not the largest science projects of its kind ever. Known as the 1000 farms initiative, the folks of Ecdysis visit and collect data from what will soon be over 1000 farms, including vineyards and orchards. Of course he isn’t doing this work alone. There’s a team of passionate, intelligent people who make this project possible. This data he has been collecting shows the ecological, economic, environmental, sociological, and psychological results of different types of farming practices. And as Jon and the Ecdysis team collect more and more data over more and more years, the results provide an avalanche of evidence that not only makes it clear that regenerative agriculture is the solution, but also provides the basis for policy and laws to change and adapt to the undeniable evidence.
https://www.ecdysis.bio/
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Beyond Organic Wine
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Nick Hillman. Nick has worked with vineyards on three continents, including all across the US. Nick now lives in Texas where hed does vineyard and farm consultation with his company Regenerative Agriculture Solutions. Nick has been on a journey that led him from conventional, recipe-type viticulture to a transformed regenerative outlook and approach. He tells us about the ideas and experiences that began to make him ask harder questions, the things that didn’t make sense or seem wise. We get technical about Integrated Pest Management or IPM, as well as the pros and cons of VSP versus high trellis systems, dormant spraying for the most effect with least impact, and Texas AVAs. Along the way, Nick digs into what regenerative viticulture is all about, and why it has grabbed him and led him on this journey.
https://www.regenerativeagsolutions.com/home
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Centralas Wine
What if everything you ever heard about foxy wine is a lie?
Wine’s F-word is the word "Foxy," and I have been on a journey over the last few years to discover the truth about this word. It has been a surprising and surprisingly impactful journey because it turns out that this word is tied up with almost everything that is currently and perennially relevant to the wine industry because it has to do with deeply held prejudice. And that’s why I believe it’s important to understand what’s going on with this wine term. I don’t know of any journey that is more important than freeing ourselves of prejudice. Liberating our minds from the tyranny of misinformation and our own psychological hang-ups may be, I think, the only way that we will be able to adapt, evolve, and survive on a planet that is wired with a nuclear self-destruct button that has been entrusted to the care of chest beating apes.
In other words, Free your mind, and life will follow.
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Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
Some links for research:
The red-white wine tasting test: https://web.archive.org/web/20070928231853/http://www.academie-amorim.com/us/laureat_2001/brochet.pdf
A History of Wine In America, Thomas Pinney 1989
https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft967nb63q&chunk.id=d0e11447&toc.id=&brand=ucpress
“foxy” study
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41438-020-0304-6?fromPaywallRec=true
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41438-019-0163-1
genetic basis of grape wine aroma
Meet Charlie and Josh of Sylvan Farm and Cidery. They do such an excellent job of introducing themselves and their story, that it would be redundant for me to pre-introduce them here. But I will tempt you to listen on by saying that they talk about harvesting wildish fruit – you know wild is an illusion, right? So maybe feral is more accurate - and making wine cider from it. Or cider wine. They talk about Queer ecology, and living and growing on the feral side of agriculture. They talk about how they’re integrating tree breeding and selection and adaptive un-farming into their orchard program. And they talk about what they’ve learned from getting this thing started over the past couple of years. Now Sylvan Farm & Cidery is new, and I love the ideas and intentions behind it and through it because I think we’ll all be able to learn some really valuable things along with Josh and Charlie as they explore these ideas in their farming. Oh and they may be making some of the most deliciously interesting perry that come from a grove of wild feral trees that may actually be one tree, like one super organism tree, so I’m excited for you to hear about that and for us all to taste their first vintage soon!
https://sylvanfarmandcidery.com/
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Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
Winegrowers around the globe have made it their goal to grow grapes without sprays. Not only are they succeeding, they are reshaping the way we think about wine.
This is a special episode featuring a story about multiple winegrowers who make wine from grapes that they never spray with pesticides or fungicides, neither conventional nor organic. If the thought of attempting this makes you queasy, it may be because of some foundational beliefs you hold about wine that you've never challenged. This story will ask you to challenge them.
In fact a wine publication who had bought this story as a pitch decided to kill it because of the questions it asks of the entire wine industry. Yet when we begin to ask how we might grow wine without sprays, we discover an entirely new way of thinking about wine, how it is grown and made, and what it is made with.
If you care about zero zero wine but have never considered no-spray viticulture, you're missing out on the fundamental zero that could and perhaps should be the essence of natural wine.
At the heart of the no-spray viticulture revolution is reconnection with the natural world, to see how it grows and thrives and produces abundance without sprays, and then to emulate and work in cooperation with these forces. It may take a perspective shift, and the eradication of some prejudice as well. The result will be economic benefits, emissions reduction, health, diversity, and true reflections of terroir in our wines.
Support this episode by subscribing via patreon.
Sponsor:
https://paicineslearning.org/events/regenerative-winegrowing-workshop/
My guests for this episode are Kelly Allen and Andrew Napier of Artemisia Farm in Virginia. They are hybrid grape growers, and winemakers, aromatized wine makers, makers of wine made with native American fruits besides grapes, writers and publishers, wine faire organizers, farmers who do a regular CSA, foragers, and passionate entrepreneurs.
But more than that they are incredibly thoughtful about everything they do, and they are really enjoyable to talk to, which never hurts.
Now, one important thing that is worth mentioning. Kelly and Andrew use lots of wild fruits and ingredients, as well as some permaculture farmed fruits – so things that are far beyond organic – and they use some other farmed fruits that are farmed organically though not certified. But they don’t farm their hybrid grapes organically. This is an intentional choice they make because they believe it is the more ecological choice in their context. Virginia, for those who aren’t familiar, is a subtropical climate that also has cold winters. Their growing season is hot, sticky, humid, and wet… and the perfect conditions for every grape fungal and insect pest. In these conditions, many people in Virginia are growing vinifera. To do this often takes weekly applications of chemical sprays, as many as 15-25 conventional sprays in a growing season. That is frankly insane and is tantamount to poisoning our environment. But Organic sprays, which are less effective, often need to be applied at least as frequently in Virginia – that is weekly - even when using resistant hybrid grapes, which means a lot of substance buildup and compaction and fossil fuel use. Meanwhile Kelly and Andrew can spray their hybrids once per month and are learning how to manage the vineyard so they can do even less. I’m not saying what’s right or wrong here, I’m saying that if you are trying to grow grapes in the most ecological way in this context, I think an organic label doesn’t give you enough information and there are likely compromises to any path you take. However, Kelly and Andrew and I all agree that growing vinifera in Virginia is not only foolish, it’s irresponsible, and we aren’t afraid to piss some people off by saying that.
This conversation is information rich!
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Sponsors:
https://paicineslearning.org/events/regenerative-winegrowing-workshop/
This episode is the second part of the conversation I had with Nicolas Haack of Triebwerk agroforestry consulting in Germany. In this part, Nicolas asks me to go into detail about the vitiforestry project I’m planning near the Finger Lakes region of New York. As part of my education and design process for this farm, I took a permaculture design certification course last year through Oregon State University, and used the New York land for my design project. As we learned in last week’s episode, it’s probably more accurate to call this an analysis process, rather than a design process, because the emphasis is really on carefully learning about the land, who lives there, what kind of relationships exist prior to my involvement, how can we best enter the picture without doing harm, how can we ensure that the actions we take on the land are beneficial? Once you ask these questions, and listen and observe and research for the answers, the design almost takes care of itself… all of the elements of soil, water, wind, sun, fire, ecology, culture, social connections, climate, and history join together to guide what our stewarding of the land could look like. Our passions and intentions are important, of course, but in ecological design, they should respond to the land rather than force the land to respond to us.
In this episode we discuss many of the details of the vision I have for my vitiforestry project and how it was informed by this process of land analysis. As you’ll hear, even though grapes are what inspired this project, I’ve come to see them as only a part of what is best for this land. I think it’s an important point that I began by thinking about features, and through a lot of learning and considerations I realized I needed to pay attention to systems and relationships. The permaculture course I took led me to these considerations, and asks us to plan “plant system designs” rather than “tree planting” for example.
Relationships are at the heart of regenerative viticulture, and that’s what I love about vines growing with trees.
2000 years ago Pliny the Elder wrote a Natural History encyclopedia, and one chapter was about growing vines in trees. He said, “The experience of ages has sufficiently proved that the wines of the highest quality are only grown upon vines attached to trees…” Since then we’ve lost most of the knowledge that was common to his time about this practice of “tree-lising” vines, as Nicolas coins the term in this episode.
So much of the work that is being done in vitiforestry now is re-discovery… We aren’t providing answers, we’re asking questions. If you, like me, want to create a wine culture that isn’t built on fossil fueled industrial inputs, that is diverse and regenerative, then growing vines in living trees seems an important form of viticulture to consider. It has some obvious benefits. But it also has some obvious challenges. Like anything, there are some compromises to consider, and there are even more unknowns.
I mention this in the episode, but I want to underline that all of this planning and designing of a vitiforestry system on this land in New York is not my idea, I’m just mimicking what’s already happening on the land. Without any help or analysis or planning and designing, grapevines are already growing in trees all over the property. All I’m really doing is encouraging more of that natural cultural expression in a way that is easier for humans to manage and produce even more grapes and tree fruits. The Context – the ecology of the land – is of utmost importance. For example, if I was planning a farm in California now, I would probably be thinking about agave and prickly pears and peyote, rather than grapes and pear and persimmon trees.
There are some things that we know about vitiforestry. As Pliny pointed out, one reward for embracing vitiforestry is diversity. To me, diversity is one of the elements of beauty. As you’ll hear, my primary goals for my vitiforestry project are to ask what viticulture might look like if we designed our systems, if we built our cultures, to be beautiful rather than just efficient, to be self-sustaining, rather than just productive. I want my farm, my WineForest, to give you a sense of wonder as you walk through it, and to be resilient when the fragile systems we’ve built quickly with fossil fuels come crashing down. I don’t think beauty and wonder and resilience have to be at odds with living, but they might be at odds with my current mindset about some things, they might be at odds with our current dominant culture that exerts so much pressure on our thinking through its economic values. Maybe what I’m proposing is an alternative universe.
But I hope I can share it with you someday.
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Sponsors:
https://paicineslearning.org/events/regenerative-winegrowing-workshop/
“To care for what we know requires care for what we don’t, the world’s lives dark in the soil, dark in the dark.”
“Forbearance is the first care we give to what we do not know. We live by lives we don’t intend, lives that exceed our thoughts and needs, outlast our designs, staying by passing through, surviving again and again the risky passages from ice to warmth, dark to light.”
- Wendell Berry, A Small Porch
I care deeply about the natural world. That’s why I do this podcast. And of course when I use the words “natural world” these aren’t exactly the right words. They’re just the poor abbreviated metaphor of the English language for something Wendell Berry refers to elsewhere in A Small Porch as “the presence of the world being made, a fabric of interdepending wonders, moment by moment completed in beauty, leaf shadows on light leaves moving.” The Forbearance Berry mentions describes what it looks like to love in a world where we know so little. It reminds us that our actions have consequences much bigger and that last much longer than what we intend or even know, and the preeminent gift we can give to what we love is forbearance – patient self-control, restraint, avoidance of urge fulfilment and impulsive action.
When I first fell in love with wine and developed a taste for my favorite grape, I wanted to find some perfect terroir that rivaled the Crus of France and grow the worlds greatest version of my favorite thing. I’m really lucky I’ve never been rich enough to do all the stupid things I wanted to do with the earth.
Having said that, I have lived long enough and been fortunate enough to finally get access to a piece of beautiful land. I’m also fortunate that this land came into my life after my ecological consciousness had been awakened and begun to be educated. I remember walking the land for the first time and thinking how absurd an idea it is that land can be “owned.” I remember how seeing the roll and slope of the land, walking its forests and meadows, made my heart beat faster. I fell in love with it, and this love made me terrified to harm it. It is something in itself, I realized. Not something for me to calculate as an asset, not a commodity to harvest. As Berry says, “The conversion of trees to wood to money, which is all 'the economy' asks, is limitlessly the mistake of arrogance, for it is the forest, not the tree, that is the source of economic good; the forest as the whole community of itself, its lives living as the gifts of lives lived.”
This episode is the first of a two part conversation I had with Nicolas Haack. You may remember Nicolas from the episode just a couple weeks ago, as he was the consultant for the vitiforestry project implemented at Staffelter Hof, the oldest winery in the world. Nicolas is one of the founders of Triebwerk, an agroforestry consulting company in Germany, and vitiforestry projects are one of the kinds of agroforestry that he helps implement. So, naturally, I had to talk to him some more.
This first part is a conversation about engaging in a process of forbearance before embarking on any viticultural or agricultural implementation. We talk about the kinds of questions to ask, and analysis that’s advised, before acquiring a piece of land and altering it to achieve your goals. There are many valuable insights scattered throughout the conversation, but I hope the most important thing you takeaway is questioning your goals. Is what you want what’s actually best for a given place?
As Berry says, “We must acknowledge first that it is dark, and we are blind by sight.”
https://www.triebwerk-landwirtschaft.de/
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https://www.centralaswine.com/
Joyce Jones and Charity Potter sound like the street names of Marvel super heroes, but they’re actually the real women I interview for this episode. They’re better than super heroes, though, because they actually live in this messy, complex real world and take part in the real battles that result from living with the courage to speak up and ask questions and call BS when they see BS.
This episode is an expose, and it focuses on the experiences and insights and conflicts and unquestioned assumptions and prejudices that Joyce experienced, and continues to experience, as a woman of color taking classes in what passes for wine education currently. We did not name the institution or the instructors where she takes classes, because it’s really unimportant. The things she experiences could and do take place in any wine education institution on any given day.
I’ve talked a lot about diversity on this podcast. It’s one of the few agricultural solutions we have to climate change. It allows us to adapt and be productive regardless of the crazy weather the year brings. It is the antithesis to our current dominant wine culture. And Biodiversity is the solution to our farms’ health and resilience.
But equally, if not more, important is the diversity of people we include and listen to and allow to challenge our perspectives. Our mental and spiritual health is an ecosystem just like the ecosystem of our farms and forests. We cannot grow without the help of diverse connections to as many different perspectives as we can find, understand, and learn from.
Joyce Jones stepped into the bubble of our dominant wine industry, and popped it. Her impressions of her wine education are an incredible example of how important it is to get a fresh perspective, to include those who have traditionally be marginalized, to let down our guards and stop defending, to listen, to see our hypocrisy and self-contradictions. Though there aren’t many like her, we need more Joyces in the world to keep us forever young, forever learning and growing. I want to thank Joyce and Charity for their bravery and their willingness to share their personal experiences and challenges. This is heavy lifting. It’s difficult, it’s lonely, and it’s frustrating… and I’m not sure the wine industry deserves it, but we certainly need this help and are incredibly fortunate for these women’s perepsectives.
I think that our current wine education is laughable, or maybe cry-able. It needs to re-envisioned and re-designed from the ground up, literally. It creates and reinforces an entire structure of prejudice and exclusion that is not only cringe-worthy, but completely unacceptable. If anyone wants to help me build a better wine education, please contact me at connect@organicwinepodcast.com.
In the meantime, I’m so glad to help Joyce and Charity swing the wrecking ball through our current wine education.
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This episode is a conversation with three gents who help caretake the oldest winery in the world: Staffelter Hof. It has been a winery since the 800s… and it seems incredibly fitting that Jan Matthias Klein, Kosie van der Merwe, and Nicolas Haack are thinking and talking about how to build resilience into their systems. They farm organically, have planted PIWIs, and implements several hectares of a vitiforestry block. We dig into what’s going on in the Mosel that has necessitated and allowed for these changes. We dig into their vitiforestry project, and talk about the mindset shift that may be required to embrace it. Shade is not shade as it turns out, in the sense that there are many kinds of shade and not all shade is equal. We look at how some aspects that may be perceived as potential problems of vitiforestry become irrelevant once you take a different perspective. Monoculture has infiltrated the way we think, as it turns out, and diversity grows out of a change in thinking.
Staffelter Hof seems to be embracing the Albert Einstein quote: We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
And I hope this conversation helps inspire you to new ways of thinking.
https://www.staffelter-hof.de/
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This episode is an outdoor spirits tasting with Rob Easter in the backyard at Crenshaw Cru… so you will hear some authentic LA audio texture in the back ground. Rob Easter is the man behind Workhorse Rye and Modern Ancient spirits, and he’s trying to instigate a revolution in the grain spirits industry.
The vast majority of grain spirits in the US come from a single variety of genetically modified corn, rye, or wheat and are made in a handful massive industrial facilities using the same recipes. Slap a new label on it and market the hell out of it, because they’re all the same other than how much time they spent in charred American oak barrels.
On the other hand, there are thousands of varieties of heritage grains that have many different delicious flavors and could introduce an incredible diversity into our spirits industry… God this sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
Rob is not only taking on the status quo with regards to ingredients and the way they are farmed, but also the use of oak in spirits, traceability, and more. There hasn’t really been a Natural Spirits movement the way there has been a natural wine movement to shake things up. Even the craft spirits industry sources similar grain, or, with very few exceptions, doesn’t register the farming of the grain in its top concerns. So… maybe Rob is in the vanguard of what should be called the Regenerative Spirits movement. I hope he helps inspire a wave of spirit enthusiasts who care, as he does, about what the ingredients are, where they come from, how they’re farmed, who farms them, and making spirits that showcase these flavors.
https://www.workhorserye.com/
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My guest for this episode is Regine Rousseau. Regine is the the founder & CEO of Shall We Wine, and she’s also the communications director for The Veraison Project… one of the best named programs in wine. Regine explains the work of Veraison Project, and she offers some really important insights into how we can help make wine more inclusive. I’ll be honest, I got a little choked up as I relistened to her describe why someone might get involved in wine, as it has been narrowly defined, despite it not being friendly to people who look like her. Here’s a hint… it’s about love. Ultimately, I hope Regine helps you, as she helped me, fall even deeper in love with wine.
https://www.theveraisonproject.com/
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When we say the word "wine" we most often express a system of unquestioned assumptions that excludes the fruit fermentation traditions of everyone throughout all time who has made "wine" from anything besides Vitis vinifera. As we head into 2024, I'm asking us to begin to question those assumptions. Whose definition of wine are we using? Who and what is included and excluded from the dominant definition of wine?
This is a journey through history, enslavement, genocide, marriage, archaeology, culture, love, and truth. This is a journey to discover the soul of wine.
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My guest for this episode is Cameron Clark. Cameron just finished a masters program at the University of Gastronomic Sciences in Pollenzo, Italy. As part of completing his masters he spent several months working on an Biodynamic farm and the wrote a thesis titled: Spiritual Agriculture, Wellness, & Sustainability: A case study of Biodynamic agriculture in South Tyrol, Italy
Last week’s episode with Garett Long about Biodynamics asked us to reconsider what questions we haven’t asked of our farming systems. In this episode, we discuss the central claim of Cameron’s that a spiritual approach to agriculture is not just an optional add-on for farmers who happen to have that bent, but it is an essential part of the most efficacious and productive forms of agriculture and will be necessary as we navigate the transition away from anthropocentrism and economically motivated values systems.
Cameron’s definition of “spiritual” may not be what that term normally conjures for you, so hang in there to hear how he defines "spiritual agriculture." We also discuss, as Cameron does in his thesis, the conflicts that arise from trying to practice spiritual viticulture in an economically driven world, and the compromises, complexity, and nuance that result. These are the tough decisions we all face daily – whether we are directly involved in agriculture or not. And that’s why I think you’ll find this discussion with Cameron so relevant. As he says in his thesis:
"We have no choice but to use land--our existence requires food procurement and energy usage, tying all of us into inextricable relations with the world that leave a wake in the lives of others (Heldke, 2018). We are only left, then, with a choice of how to engage with our land--in a life-diminishing or life-promoting way."
Read Cameron's full Spiritual Agriculture thesis here.
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Robin Wall Kimmerer's Three Sisters Essay
This episode is a special how-to exploration of a year of biodynamic viticulture. The more I’ve learned about biodynamics, the curiouser and curiouser I’ve become. and the more I want to learn. So this episode is a practical exploration of biodynamics from both a practical and a philosophical perspective. 2024 is the 100 year anniversary of the start of Biodynamics.
My guest for this episode is Garett Long. Garett is the Director of Agriculture at Troon Vineyards. Troon Vineyard is a Demeter Biodynamic® Certified and Regenerative Organic Gold Certified™️ farm in Oregon’s Applegate Valley. They are only the fourth farm in the world to achieve Regenerative Gold Certification, and they are creating a beautiful culture in southern Ofregon. I had a great conversation with Troon’s General Manager, Craig Camp, over a year ago for an episode that I highly recommend finding in the Beyond Organic Wine library.
Garett takes us through an entire year of biodynamic practices at Troon, so this episode is information rich. One of my favorite things about talking to Garett is that while I intended this to be a step-by-step instructional for practicing biodynamics, he made it so much more. We get the practical how-to, but we never get very far from the relevance of the spiritual aspects of agriculture to those practices. This is in part due to Garett’s deep sense of the importance of the spiritual aspect of farming to farming itself, and in part due to biodynamics, which is unique as a farming practice in its embrace of spiritual perspectives. Garett talks frankly about some of the ways that biodynamics is often dismissed, but he also offers alternative perspectives and interpretations about what these things may arise from.
One note to keep in mind is that I ask Garett to talk quite a bit about the requirements of Demeter Biodynamic certification, and I just want to point out that while he’s extremely knowledgeable about this, he isn’t a BD certifier and isn’t speaking for Demeter. So please do your own research and talk to the folks at Demeter if you want to get certified. Having said that, this Garett is a wealth of information, and I think everyone will find this conversation to be incredibly valuable whether or not you plan to get BD certified. Most valuable of all, I think, are the questions about whether we have been asking the right questions about biodynamics, the questions that ask us to consider what we don’t yet know.
https://www.troonvineyard.com/
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For a dose of hope and imagination and a vision of beauty and permanence, for this episode I bring you Ron and Monique of Wijngaard Dassemus in the Netherlands. Ron and Monique are doing so much cool stuff all at once I don’t know where to begin. They are the largest commercial no-spray vineyard that I’m aware of, at 6 hectares or 15 acres, and they’re doing this in Holland… That means that the vines they grow are resilient to some pretty bad, wet weather… trust me, I spent a year there. And 2 hectares or 5 acres of that vineyard is a younger vitiforestry planting that will use trees as living trellis posts.
When you hear about how and why they use a high cordon trellising system, how and why they mow very sparsely, how and why they don’t need to add fertilizer, how and why they’ve chosen the tree partners in the vitiforestry block, and how this system lends itself to expressive wines… and so much more, you will see how incredibly caring and thoughtful they are about the ecology of every element of their system… and why I’m so thrilled to share this with you!
While there are folks doing pieces of what Ron and Monique are doing, I have yet to find anyone doing all of this in one vineyard… and they are doing it in a place that doesn’t even have a wine tradition, mostly because of the bad weather! I guess what I’m trying to say is… if they can do what they are doing where they are doing it… the rest of us have no excuses. Let your imaginations run wild!
https://dassemus.nl/
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Sponsors:
https://stokewines.au/
We at the Stoke wanted to sponsor the Beyond Organic Wine Podcast because of the importance of the message that so many of these conversations bring. Our future generations depend on us, and education is the key to a change in our concepts of how we could and should be farming and treating our soils. It doesn’t matter your level of education with these topics, as long and you are willing to learn and your heart is in the right place, YOU will make a difference and it doesn’t matter the size as it all adds up. Keep pushing and please keep chatting. Let’s do this.
Mentioned in the intro:
https://www.lylajune.com/
What if things get better?
Tags: vitiforestry, no-spray vineyard, biodynamic vineyard, piwi grapes, hybrid grapes
This episode is sponsored by Stoke Wines.
https://stokewines.au/
My guest for this episode is Jason Haas. Jason is the partner and general manager of Tablas Creek Vineyard in Paso Robles California. I hope that you’ve heard of Tablas Creek, but if not, let me give you a short list of their environmental leadership in the wine industry. Tablas Creek was the first Regenerative Organic Certified winery in the world. They’ve been farming organically since their start in 1989, certified organic since 2005, and certified biodynamic since 2015. They employ a full-time shepherd to manage a year-round flock of over 250 sheep that rotationally graze their 270 acres of vineyards, as well as the woodlands around them. Their winery is 100% solar powered, and they use their wastewater to feed a native species wetland. They are leaders in reducing glass bottle weights and bringing awareness to the many downsides of heavy glass bottles, and they are pioneering alternative packaging for ultra-premium wine. And this is just a short list. We talk about all of this, as well as get into the technicalities of no-till and low-till considerations in regenerative viticulture. We talk about how Tablas Creek has brought every grape from Chateauneuf du Pape to the US through the rigorous and time consuming process of quarantining that can take over a decade… and it’s likely if you’ve drunk a wine from the US made with a Rhone variety of grape, you can thank Tablas Creek.
Behind all of this, I hope you get a sense of the timeline of the vision for this winery. It extends beyond Jason’s, or any single person’s lifetime. It’s a vision of continual, incremental improvement, of regeneration, over centuries. It’s a vision that I hope inspires the way we think about wine.
https://tablascreek.com/
Support this episode by subscribing via patreon.
Sponsors:
https://stokewines.au/
We at the Stoke wanted to sponsor the Beyond Organic Wine Podcast because of the importance of the message that so many of these conversations bring. Our future generations depend on us, and education is the key to a change in our concepts of how we could and should be farming and treating our soils. It doesn’t matter your level of education with these topics, as long and you are willing to learn and your heart is in the right place, YOU will make a difference and it doesn’t matter the size as it all adds up. Keep pushing and please keep chatting. Let’s do this.
I heard a great quote that went something like this: when you’re a child, you think your parents are gods. When you become an adolescent, you realize they’re human. When you become an adult, you forgive them for being human. When you become wise, you forgive yourself for being human.
My guest for this episode is Nick Dugmore. Nick is a winemaker in South Australia for his winery The Stoke. Nick listened to the episode I recorded with Jeff Lowenfels about the soil microbiome, and he’s been traveling down the regenerative viticulture rabbit hole ever since. In 2023 he was named Australia’s Young Gun of Wine, and then four months ago he was diagnosed with stage 3 bowel cancer. He’s 39 years old.
When you hear Nick’s positivity, humor, and joy, keep in mind that he’s in the midst of the following treatment schedule: 5 x 3 week rounds of chemotherapy with 1 week of intravenous followed by 112 tablets over two weeks and then a week break. Then 6 weeks of radiotherapy which is 5 days a week at the hospital for 45 mins. Then a 3 month break and then surgery to remove what’s left.
We talk frankly about his cancer and the fact that his alcohol consumption may have contributed to it. Yet Nick is incredibly grateful to work in wine, and he loves the winemaking community. Both Nick and I can thank wine for the most important relationships in our lives – our spouses. But if his cancer was caused by alcohol, there’s a chance that alcohol could take his life. Both are parts of wine, and there are many more. Nick talks about the wine community that has come to his aid, and he talks about the spirituality of wine, and the beauty of Kangaroo Island where he converted 12 acres of conventional vineyard to a thriving regenerative ecosystem. He makes some profound connections between soil health, physical health, and mental health. And at least twice he mentions how busy we all are, and how this leads us to make thoughtless decisions… because we don’t have the time to be thoughtful.
It reminds me of the famous quote from Bill Mollison’s Permaculture Designers Manual: "The philosophy behind permaculture is one of working with, rather than against, nature, of protracted and thoughtful observation rather than protracted and thoughtless action."
As I think about regenerating wine, Nick has made me think about how important time is. The speed of our lives is completely antithetical to the complexity of life. Look how patiently nature grows an ecosystem, look how it builds complexity and diversity layer by layer over centuries. I want to make wine this way. I want to think about wine this way, and let this perspective inform the decisions I make for this vintage. I want to stop rushing to buy things when I don’t know where they came from or how they were made. I want to take the time to observe and learn about complex things carefully. I want to take the time to be grateful.
If you’re moved by Nick’s story, he mentions a go-fund me campaign that his wine community set up for him and his family, and you can link to that here.
https://stokewines.au/
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Centralas Wine
AKA - How to make wine from everything besides grapes!
It seems to me that what we have called wine and revered as wine and created certifications and diplomas about, is not actually wine. It’s one perspective on one kind of wine from one region of the planet. And I think the first step, the lowest hanging fruit if you will, to having an authentic local wine culture is simply using local ingredients. Put another way, culture grows out of the earth. If it is imported and forced onto the land, it is neither sustainable nor is it culture. Do we even know what American wine, or Australian wine, or Chilean wine actually tastes like? Or do we only know what French wine tastes like when you make it in various places around the planet?
My guests for this episode are the gentlemen of Hermit Woods Winery in New Hampshire: Ken Hardcastle, Chuck Lawrence, and Bob Manley. They have an incredible story of asking these questions and beginning a journey of discovering and creating their local wine culture. These guys are exploring unexplored territory in wine, and they have a lot of knowledge to share about what they are finding.
The wines of Hermit Woods Winery are well-aged, dry, textured, complex, with great mouthfeel and nuanced aromas, but they aren’t made from grapes. They’re made from blends of things like quince, day lily, kiwiberry, black raspberry, honey, and rhubarb, and many other fruits and plants, herbs, flowers, and spices that thrive in New Hampshire. They make about 35 different wines, at least, every year, and they have been at this for over 15 years. They started by asking “Does it have to be a grape?” and I think they’ve answered that question with an emphatic “Absolutely not.”
We cover their philosophy and their unique approach to winemaking, and this conversation has an inordinate amount of practical and helpful ideas for anyone who might want to consider joining this local wine movement. These guys are an incredible resource, whether for technical advice on navigating the particular challenges of fermenting things like tomatoes and how long you need to wait before Japanese knotweed wine stops smelling like baby wipes, or for how to reconstruct a metaphoric grape.
Though this should be obvious, I think it’s very important to point out that the diversity of ingredients that Hermit Woods uses supports, honors, and generates more biodiversity and more diversity of wines. There are many practical advantages to not relying on a single variety of fruit for your entire production, and in the bigger picture it also leads to a healthier, more resilient, and more beautiful wine culture. These three friends are changing the world of wine as we know it, and they seem to be having a lot of fun doing it.
https://hermitwoods.com/
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Sponsors:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Zac Brown of Alderlea Vineyards in the Cowichan Valley on Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada. Zac grows an array of grapes in his vineyard, some that he has to spray multiple times every year, and some that he doesn't really have to spray but chooses to once per year. Zac grows resilient wine grapes (some PIWIs), side by side with more common vinifera, and he has direct comparisons between their resilience and performance in many ways. His findings are striking: the resilient hybrids out-perform vinifera in every measure, including fungal resistance, drought resistance, recovery from extreme heat and cold, and productivity... and the hybrids don't need to be sprayed to do this.
In addition to talking about the viticultural advantages to growing resilient grape varieties, we discuss wine making techniques for working with specific resilient grapes. Like any grape, they can make beautiful wine but each variety requires its own specific care in the winery to elicit its best flavors. Zac had some great insights for making wine with the varieties he grows.
Zac is at the forefront of a revolution - the dawn of the ecological era of viticulture, guided by biology. His mixed vineyard provides a great example of a way that the larger wine industry may begin to transition to a kind of wine that can withstand climate change... and be interesting, indigenous, and delicious.
https://www.alderlea.ca/
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If you'd like to sponsor an episode, please contact Adam at:
connect@organicwinepodcast.com
My guest for this episode is Nan McCarry, and she’s no exception to the exceptional people I’ve been fortunate to get to know because of this podcast. Nan is an ethnobotanist by passion and trade, and she has had a focus on the native grapes of North America over the last few years. What we might call “native” grapes, Nan refers to as “crop wild relatives.” She talks about the importance of preserving the biodiverse gene pool contained in these crop wild relative, and the work she has helped with to catalog and inventory these North American vines. One of the most famous incidents demonstrating the importance of the biodiversity contained within crop wild relatives is the rescue of the entire European wine industry from phylloxera.
The term “crop wild relatives” of course refers to the genetic ancestors of our current domesticated wine crops. But by the time Nan gets done explaining the process of domestication from an evolutionary perspective, you may begin to think of that term in a different way. You may begin to step away from your human-centric perspective and see yourself as a relative of the grapevines that you tend.
This idea was introduced to me, actually, on a podcast called The Land You’re On, which I highly recommend. It’s a podcast that interviews members of the Onondaga and other nations of the Haudenosaunee, or Iroquois, Confederacy… the oldest currently functioning democracy on earth, and the inspiration for our current society here in the US and other western democracies. If you’ve heard of the three sisters in gardening and farming – corn, beans, and squash – this came from the people of the Haudenosaunee. Like strawberries? You can thank these folks for those as well. And in one of the episodes about an incredible living library of seeds, an Onondaga Seedkeeper talks about how her culture sees food as a relative. The crops collaborate with the people who farm them to help each other survive, have sovereignty, and provide for 7 generations to come. If you’re going to listen to just one episode from this podcast, let it be this one… I never would have thought that a seed bank could make me cry, but wow.
And I began to think about how I could see wine as a relative. What would that mean? How would I work differently with vines? How would I work with fermentations if I took this perspective?
Nan and I talk about a presentation she created which is one of the most unique and impactful combinations of science and psychology that I’ve seen. Nan sees wine, grapevines, and everything from an evolutionary standpoint. And like many of you, and myself, cares deeply about what humans are doing to the environment. Because of this, she partnered with a local organization dedicated to mindfulness – imaginebeingwell.org - to explain the Cosmic Evolution Story and how this helps deal with eco-anxiety. I’ve definitely experienced eco-anxiety, and I found Nan’s presentation to be one of the most helpful things I’ve ever seen, which actually speaks to me from a scientific perspective that I found refreshing and more compelling than many other things I’ve seen. We only touch on a small part of her presentation here, but Nan has generously allowed me to post the entire presentation on her episode page at BeyondOrganicWine.com. Also at BeyondOrganicWine.com you’ll find a link to Nan’s talk about the importance of native grapes, and you can learn more about Nan and her other projects at:
Ethnobot.org and on Instagram at @successionalforest
Enjoy!
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(310) 663-3542
In the intro to this episode I introduce the new name of the podcast: Beyond Organic Wine Podcast. I also talk about the three weeks I've spent working with the crew of La Garagista, including Deirdre Heekin and Caleb Barber, and Camila Carrillo of La Montañela, and Anna Travers of Lilith Wines.
Should you get a chance to come to Vermont, you could not be more fortunate than to meet this crew – maybe coven is a better word – who make up the team here at La Garagista. Deirdre and Caleb, Camilla of La Montanuela, and Anna of Lilith Wines, I’ve had the honor to work alongside and learn from these lovely folks, both in the vineyard and winery, and I can’t say enough here to do justice to the amazing work that they are doing. Their commitment to an ecological approach to growing grapes and making wine is beautiful, inspiring, and delicious. If you haven’t listened to my previous interview with Deirdre Heekin, it’s pretty special. But also, her wines, and the wines of Lilith and La Montanuela are transformative. The wines are informed by deep passion and a seemingly preternatural ability to intuit what kinds of wines these grapes in these conditions want to become, all without any inputs other than cosmic energy and probably a little magic.
https://www.lagaragista.com/
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My guest for this episode is Mireia Pujol-Busquets, and she’s breeding the future of Catalonian grapes at her family’s estate vineyard just outside of Barcelona, Spain, called Alta Alella.
27% of the organic vineyards globally are in Spain, making Spain the country with the most organic vineyards in the world, by area. Mireia grew up on a vineyard that was organic from its inception in 1991, but she wanted to go her own way and follow her fascination with science. So instead of viticulture and oenology, she studied Biology at university, and then had two unique experiences working with agriculture in Thailand and Switzerland.
In Switzerland she got introduced to resistant hybrid grapes, piwis, and saw that if grapevines were allowed to reproduce sexually, instead of through cloning, they could evolve and adapt to the changes of nature. In contrast to the traditional vinifera grapes that her family grew organically – that needed to be constantly sprayed with copper and sulfur – she saw that grapes could be bred to need no sprays at all. As she looked to the legacy and the land that she would leave not only her children, but generations to come, she realized she needed to start the process of making viticulture something that improved the land, and as a farmer she saw the increasing need for more resistant and resilient vines that could survive in a rapidly more extreme climate.
So Mireia has started a project to breed the traditional vinifera varieties of Catalonia to produce resistant varieties that preserve the culture of her land, but that can be farmed without sprays of any kind, and that can withstand the increasingly extreme weather conditions. Her project is called the Resistant and Autochthonous Varieties Adapted to Climate Change (VRIAACC, acronym in Spanish). With resistant varieties of grapes and the elimination of the need to spray, she will reduce compaction, reduce emissions, create a healthier environment for humans and animals working in and around the vineyard, and reduce losses due to fungal infestations.
https://altaalella.wine/
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This episode is a special update on the 2023 vintage at my "estate” winegarden - Crenshaw Cru - in Los Angeles, where we lost essentially the entire crop to powdery mildew this year despite regular organic treatments and canopy management.
But more than that, this episode is a call for an honest assessment of the vine species upon which we base our global wine industry: vitis vinifera. The truth is that it is inferior in almost every way possible, and can no longer even claim superiority of flavors, to other grapes that have been hybridized in recent years. It has become a drag on our resources, our creativity, and our joy, and it’s time to explode the narrow box - the coffin - that we’ve put wine in for far too long. It’s time to eradicate prejudice and bring wine back to life with a diversity of wine cultures.
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My guest for this episode is Gizem Duyar of Kerasus Wine. Gizem lives and makes wine in Turkey solely from “married vines" that are over a century old. A married vine is a vine that has been wrapped to a tree, grown with the tree, and lives symbiotically with a tree as its support structure. It is likely the most ancient form of viticulture because it simply mimicks how vines grow naturally without human intervention. This was the original vitiforestry. Because of this relationship with its partner tree, the vine gets many benefits that Gizem discusses.
There’s something so special about this relationship that Gizem has committed to making a very traditional form of natural wine in amphora that she has altered to include a unique technique for keeping the wine amber or orange wine while including both white and red grapes. She adds nothing and removes nothing to the wine so that it can reflect that special expression of the relationship between the vine and tree. She calls the wine Melez, which is the Turkish word for hybrid. It describes her winemaking process, but it also takes on a much more literal meaning when you discover that the red grape she blends with is a hybrid grape from America that has been living in Turkey for over 100 years.
Turkey has an ancient winemaking tradition that has fallen out of popularity lately for social and political reasons. It is home to thousands of indigenous varieties of vitis vinifera, and it has also lost thousands of acres of vineyards in recent years. Turkey’s neighbor, Georgia, gets a lot of attention in US wine circles, and it should, but once you start digging into Turkey you’ll find as much as three Georgia’s worth of wine culture… It’s incredibly rich in wine history. After all, both countries have been at it for about 8000 years, from times before the borders or the names Georgia and Turkey meant anything.
A special thanks to Gizem and her translator Elif for conducting this conversation in English!
@kerasuswine
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My guests for this episode are my friends, my neighbors, and my bosses, Khalil Kinsey, Teron Stevenson, and Justin Leathers. Collectively they are known as the Westside Winos, and they own Offhand Wine Bar where I work a couple nights each week, and we talk about why Offhand is special, and why it shouldn't be. Offhand serves only West Coast (of the US) natural wine, meaning almost every wine by the glass is both organically farmed and from California. It is unique in this sense in Los Angeles, and extremely rare in the US. But why is there so seldom a focus on local wine in America?
During this conversation I introduce the guys to six very special wines from all over the US as we try to answer that important question, and they talk about how they are re-writing the script at Offhand.
https://www.offhandwinebar.com/
Wineries represented:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
https://www.fingerlakesciderhouse.com/
https://www.dearnativegrapes.com/
https://www.wildtexaswines.com/
https://kesselringvineyard.wordpress.com/
And after recording:
https://redbyrdorchardcider.com/
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My guest for this episode is Etelle Higonnet. Etelle is a graduate of Yale Law school and she spent her early career working on some war crimes tribunals, and with Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. She then shifted focus from human rights to environmental protection and worked with Green Peace focusing on, among other things, ceasing global deforestation. She continued her focus on stopping deforestation as Campaigns Director at Mighty Earth, and ultimately began to shift her attention from just stopping deforestation to beginning to rebuild global forests through agroforestry. She is a founding member of the Sustainable Wine Roundtable, and has become a vitiforestry enthusiast and is compiling an online vitiforestry library, for the SWR, of every publicly available peer-reviewed study published about vitiforestry as a resource for anyone considering the possibility of introducing agroforestry into their viticulture. She has graciously allowed me to link to this library – while it is still in development - from the episode page on Organic Wine Podcast.com.
Etelle discusses the many benefits of vitiforestry, and the many ways trees can be incorporated in and around vines.
https://swroundtable.org/
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Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Gelert Hart of AmByth Estate in the Templeton Gap region of Paso Robles. Implicit in the idea of permaculture is the idea of "forever." It contains the goal of building a culture that can last. AmByth is two Welsh words that mean ForEver, and this adds another dimension to the term. What if we thought of our actions, our creations, as gifts for the future? How would that shape the way we grow and make wine? What would that mean for the kind of viticulture we would practice?
In the case of AmByth, it means that their vineyards are head-trained & dry-farmed on steep hillsides since planting, certified organic and biodynamic, and biodiverse with inter-plantings of olive trees in the vineyard and chickens and sheep (with a protective llama) rotating through their land. AmByth is the first winery to make Demeter certified biodynamic wine in Paso Robles, and to respect this farming they make all of their wines without adding to or taking away anything away from the grapes. This is natural wine that starts with natural farming... the kind of farming where the term "natural" came from.
https://www.ambythestate.com/
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Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Deborah Parker Wong – the co-editor, with Pam Strayer, of Slow Wine USA.
Centralas, my winery, is honored to be listed in the Slow Wine guide. I say honored, because Slow Wine is unique in the entire realm of wine scoring or recommendation guides in that it takes into account the ecological context of the wine that they recommend.
All other wine scoring and recommendation guides reflect the problem that plagues wine in general – that is the problem of disconnection. When wine reviewers and guides give a 100 point score to a wine, what does that tell you about the way that the fruit was grown? What does it tell you about the way that winery conducts it business, treats its employees, manages its land, or interacts with its community? It tells you nothing about these things. Yet aren’t these things vitally important to the “greatness” of a wine? Can a wine be great if it tastes amazing yet poisons children in nearby schools? And I use this example of poisoning children because it is an actual example from both Napa and Bordeaux. Our disconnection from the context of wine is the only reason we revere 100 point scores that are based on the flavor of a wine, rather than think them ridiculous.
I tried to point this out at one point by creating the Ecological Wine Score, as a comprehensive, yet satirical take on giving a wine a score that is actually meaningful, and all that would have to be considered. You can see this at EcologicalWineScore.com
Slow Wine and the Slow Wine Snail of Approval reconnect wine to it context in a human community and living ecosystem, and Deborah walks us through how it does this. We talk about the Slow Wine Manifesto, which I’ll make available on the episode page at OrganicWinePodcast.com, and we talk about the research that is required to get behind some of the green façade that wineries rely on, and understand the complex practices that no one certification can capture. So much more goes into a wine than just its sensory evaluation or a biodynamic certification.
Just for fun we talk about Drops of God which we don’t spoil if you haven’t seen it, and we talk about how the common idea of wine – you know, the Euro-centric monoculture that has been spread around the globe through capitalist imperialism – is actually not going down so well among young folks. Crazy, right?
A big thanks to Deborah for this fun and engaging conversation, and for letting us know about Slow Wine.
https://slowfoodusa.org/
Snail of Approval
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Organic Wine Podcast
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Dave Carr of Raging Cider and Mead, and he’s helping to redefine what cider can be and where it can come from. Dave makes cider in San Diego County… and for those of you unfamiliar with California, that’s south of me. We often look north for great cider cultures, and I’ll admit that’s why it took me so long to have Dave on the podcast, but it turns out there’s an old, very special, and pretty outstanding cider culture just over an hour south of Los Angeles… in fact, once you hear Dave’s description of growing cider here you may begin to see it as one of the BEST places to grow cider.
I don’t want to give too much away but you’re going to find out about a unique population of banana slugs, the rich apple and pear history of gold rush town Julian, CA where Dave is helping rebuild and regenerate old, historic and neglected orchards, a seedling pear name Screaming Weasel, a perry named Perry Feral, the Quest for the Palomar Giant, sweet meads, cysers, and pyments, Dave’s approach to orchard polyculture including cover cropping with collards, composting with mushrooms and mulching with spent mushroom substrate, alley cropping with asparagus, beans, and squash, as well as looking on the bright side of orchard pests and how to manage them.
In addition to renewing legacy orchards and farming his home orchard and other local orchards in a beyond organic way, Dave is caretaking old, historic orchards for a local tribe council that preserves land from development, and he’s trying to develop locally adapted seedling apples and pears to create a uniquely Southern California cider culture. You’ll hear about all this and more, and how you can taste his diverse array of natural, regional ciders, meads, and co-ferments at his taproom in San Marcos.
https://www.ragingcidermead.com/
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This is the second part of the special in-person, on-site conversation that I had in June of 2023 with Mike Biltonen of Know Your Roots. Please check out part 1 for Mike’s full bio, and for a fantastic episode about holistic orchard culture within a biodynamic context.
On this episode we leave Mike’s Apostrophe Orchard and enter the forest that surrounds it. We leave the realm of the known, the controlled, the cultivated, and enter the realm of questions, of curiosity, of the unexplored. The pace changes, the energy shifts, and the conversation evolves. I invite you to take this walk with us, but I have this suggestion: Don’t enter the forest. Become it.
The forest is the source of the orchard, the source of the vines and vineyard. It is also our source. Our bodies and lives, our cultures, grow out of nature, out of the wild. When I speak of developing a more ecological wine culture, I’m essentially talking about ecomimicry, biomimicry, or just emulating the forest ecosystem more closely with our cultures.
Along this walk we discover amazing wild vines and talk of wineforests and vitiforestry. We speak of the need for further research into plant communication and energetics. We observe the values that the forest manifests in its multiple diverse and interconnected forms, and how these differ from and could be better incorporated into our production-oriented farming. We ask how to embrace beauty in our viticulture and pomiculture, along with ecological integration and economic viability.
At a time when we now see the effect that the industrial food and beverage production system has, not just on what we eat and drink, but on the human psyche, and on gaia, Mike asks us to begin to consider the integration of secular and esoteric science. While he affirms the importance of data and statistics, he asks how we can marry those with our observations of nature that often give us better intuitive insights. Mike suggests that the more time we spend in nature, on our farms, in our vineyards and orchards, without the intentions of productivity and economic extraction, the better our observations become and the better our science becomes.
Enjoy!
https://knowyouroots.com/index.html
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Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Mike Biltonen.
Mike is the co-owner, with his wife, of Know Your Roots, an orchard and vineyard consultation and management business in the Northeast US. Mike has spent almost 40 years working with orchards, vineyards, and other specialty crops. He’s farmed in Virginia, Minnesota, Vermont, California, and New York. Over the past 20 years his passion for sustainable agriculture has evolved into a profound dedication to the principles and practices of ecologically focused, biodynamic agricultural. He serves as the president of the Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Biodynamics. For the last 15 years Mike has consulted for orchardists and farmers while also operating his own biodynamically enlivened orchard and mushroom operation in central New York. He keeps alive the legacy of his friend, the late Michael Phillips, and helps maintain Phillips’ Holistic Orchard Network.
This was a very special conversation for me for many reasons, not the least of which was because it was the first in-person interview I’ve done on location. Mike was gracious enough to spend a morning guiding me through his newly established Apostrophe Orchard. As we walk through the trees and other plants, Mike gives us an incredible tour of an orchard established and maintained ecologically with the principles and practices of biodynamics, and a permaculture perspective. You’ll hear the sounds of birds and orchard life all around us in the background as we talk. Since this happened within the context of the freeze event that left no fruit on the trees of Apostrophe Orchard, we discuss what the future of pomiculture and agriculture might look like from both a big perspective and a technical holistic orchard care perspective. The conversation culminates in a discussion of “high frequency beverages” and how human energy has a vital impact on the farm environment and its products.
And this is just part one! In part two, to be released soon, we leave the orchard and walk into the forest… and the conversation becomes influenced by things more ancient, primal, mystical, and even magical by the end… So stay tuned, and … Enjoy!
https://knowyouroots.com/index.html
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Catavino Tours
Oom - recycled bottles for wine
VT Vineyards
Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.
My guest for this episode is Brent Mayeaux of Stagiaire Wines. Brent makes zero-zero wines with a lot of heart and hard work on Treasure Island in the San Francisco Bay. This year Brent also organized and held the Wine From Here wine fair, with help from several other people of course. I’m very impressed with the humility that he embraces with the name of his winery: Stagiaire – the Apprentice. WE never really if we continue to seek and follow our curiosity and passion to make better wine. We will always have more to learn, and I love that Brent owns that with his brand. I also love Brent’s desire for and commitment to honesty and bringing the highest level of integrity with his wine making. And I of course value his promotion and support of making wine a local, farm-to-table experience.
Now this episode has a back story. We recorded an entire episode before this which I decided not to release. I thought I had done a disservice to you and to Brent by drawing him out about some of the discouraging and frustrating aspects of being a winemaker today in California, and elsewhere. However, in addition to those negative elements, there were some good and practically helpful things too, and tons of information and a fun conversation. So I’ve released this original conversation on patreon as “subscribers only” content. If you’d like to support this podcast and listen to that previous conversation, here's the link to our patreon channel where you can subscribe, and visit the "support" page at OrganicWinePodcast.com.
https://www.stagiairewine.com/
https://winefromherefair.com/
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Sponsors:
Centralas Wine
Catavino Tours
Oom - recycled bottles for wine
VT Vineyards
Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.
My guest is Marcelo Castro Vera of Octágono, one of a few natural wines in Mexico and the only winery nationwide that ferments in clay vessels buried in the ground. They don't have electricity in the winery, so the whole winemaking process is done by hand. They add zero sulfites to their wine. They also produce artisanal mezcal. The agaves are cooked in earth pits using fallen wood, crushed with a stone tahona using spring water to extract sugars, fermented naturally with no yeast or additional sugars added in wooden vats, distilled in copper stills. They also produce beer, mead, cider, and distilled prickly pear alcohol.
I love Marcelo's thinking about how doing all the winemaking by hand creates jobs for more people, and that he sees this as the goal of the winery rather than getting rich. I hope you are inspired by him to think about what wine could become by eliminating some of the things we take for granted.
@octagonomx
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Oom - recycled bottles for wine
VT Vineyards
Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.
My guest for this episode is Dan Durica, and when I asked him about what inspires the work he does, he essentially credited limitations for his inspirations. What if we couldn’t throw fossil fuels at our problems? What if we eliminated the easy solutions we’ve relied on for the past 80 years? What if you couldn’t use fossil fuels to make or sell your wine? No driving, no electricity, no chemical sprays and fertilizers or diesel farm equipment? Answering these what ifs would inevitably cause us to arrive at a very local wine culture in both scale and reach. Putting these limitations on ourselves would make us more resourceful, creative, ecological, and adaptive in our thinking.
Dan lives in a unique community called Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage in Missouri where he also farms a no-spray, poly-culture vineyard built on the principles of permaculture. He also produces and hosts the Hardcore Sustainable Youtube channel where you’ll find a lot of helpful info about living and growing vines without fossil fuels and get to see what Dan is doing.
Dan also mentioned how far our understanding of what the best agriculture is has grown so much in the last twenty years that the idea of “organic” is kind of outdated. I couldn’t agree more. I’ve joked multiple times about changing the name of this podcast, and that may actually happen soon… when I have a spare minute to redo the entire online infrastructure that it relies on. So… for now it will stay the Organic Wine Podcast… but know that in my heart, and in everything it stands for, it is so much more.
After recording, Dan and I spoke a bit longer and he also proposed the idea that, historically, vineyard establishment has probably taken much longer than it does now. Vineyards were likely integrated into a local ecosystem over decades, rather than years, and thought of as an intergenerational project. Finding vines and other fruit that thrive without sprays can take years of selection, and even breeding. Building fertility and resilience into a vineyard takes years of ecosystem enhancement. I hope to be able to reach back out to Dan in a few years and see how the development of his vineyard has come along.
Also, we both talk about how the future we face will require us to stop thinking of ourselves as grape growers or apple growers or any single vineyard or orchard system managers, and start becoming polyculture farmers who grow a diversity of dozens of crops, and who build a business plan based on much less than 100% production. In California we have just lived through one of if not the wettest winters on record, and that’s following one of, if not the, driest years on record. The northeast US just had the awful combination of an unseasonably warm April followed by a multi-day freeze in May, which devastated the vineyards and orchards.
What Dan is doing, even though on a smaller scale, is an example of what is possible in even the most difficult growing conditions, when you approach wine with a different mindset.
https://www.dancingrabbit.org/
https://www.youtube.com/@HardcoreSustainable/videos
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Sponsors:
Centralas Wine
Catavino Tours
Oom - recycled bottles for wine
VT Vineyards
Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.
My guest for this episode is Xaime Niembro, of Vinos Barrigones. Vinos Barrigones translates to “Paunchy Wines” in English, though Google will translate it to “Pot-bellied wines.” And you’ll hear Xaime’s hilarious story of how the name Barrigon became the name for their wines and aesthetic.
Xaime is using his Vinos Barrigones to regenerate his family’s 6.5 hectare or 16 acre vineyard near Queretaro, Mexico. Queretaro is just a bit more than an hour north of Mexico City, and quality viticulture is possible here at this southern latitude because of the high elevation 1800 meters or close to 6000 feet above sea level. Of course that brings some unique challenges as well, and Xaime gives us a great explanation of how he makes wine with the climate to fit his culture and cuisine perfectly.
We also talk briefly about the ciders Xaime is making, and Mezcal, which is where Xaime got his start in fermented beverages. One of the insights Xaime offered that has made me appreciate Mezcal much more than I did was its possibility to express terroir. Unlike grain spirits, which are made with an annual crop, Mezcal is made from a perennial plant that lives in the soil for years – sometimes decades – before harvest. This new way of seeing and appreciating Mezcal has strangely affected my pallet, and I've found myself actually enjoying it for the first time. I have a decent bottle at home, of course, this is Los Angeles, but I’ve neglected it in my cabinet for years. After this interview I immediately poured a glass for myself … and loved every drop, and mezcal has been the only liquor I’ve ordered at a bar since. So there you go… a little mind pallet connection magic was made possible thanks to Xaime.
So a big thanks to Xaime for expanding my world, and for being the first Mexican wine producer on the podcast. There’s an old and vibrant and growing wine culture in Mexico, and I hope to share more producers with you soon.
https://vinosbarrigones.com/es/
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Sponsors:
Centralas Wine
Catavino Tours
Oom - recycled bottles for wine
VT Vineyards
Let them know you heard about them through the Organic Wine Podcast.
This is a special episode. More than an episode, it’s a direct request to all of you listening right now. Here’s the request: let’s solve the glass bottle problem right now.
If you’ve been listening to this podcast recently, the name OOM should be familiar to you. They’re a sponsor of this podcast, and they are a company based here in my fair city that is tackling the bottle re-use challenge head on. They have begun collecting, de-labeling, cleaning and sanitizing wine bottles to re-sell. They’ve encountered some problems that they can’t solve on their own… they need you. Or really, we all need each other. As you listen to this conversation with OOM co-founder Amy Lee, you’ll see what I mean. Amy wants OOM to help eliminate single use packaging across all industries.
The scope of this conversation is mainly focused on California, but this is a conversation that needs to happen and is happening everywhere. The reason I wanted to get this conversation out to you is because any of us trying to do this anywhere will encounter the same problems, and sharing these problems and their potential solutions as a global community of winemakers and wine lovers will move all of these efforts forward toward solutions much more quickly.
The main issues come down to two things that all of us listening can help make happen: first, we need to use label materials that can be removed without chemical processes, and second, we need to agree on just a handful of standard bottle shapes and colors that we all use if we buy new glass.
Why do we need to do this? Why is this conversation not only important, but urgent? Because glass is far and away the biggest source of emissions for the wine industry, and re-using bottles can drastically reduce the emissions associated with producing and using new glass.
Also, most wine bottles do not get recycled in the US. Those of you listening in Europe do much better with your recycling, but in the US we recycle less than 31% of our wine bottles. And the bad news about recycling glass is that it produces a lot of emissions to heat glass to close to 3000 degrees Fahrenheit so that it can be re-molded.
My hope is that those of you listening now can choose to alter your bottle and label purchasing behavior immediately to begin to facilitate a transition to a re-use system. If you’re not a wine producer, tell your favorite producers about this opportunity. Let them know you’d like them to embrace these bottling choices and that you’d not only be okay with it, you’d love it. If you’re a wine maker, get everyone at your custom crush onto the same bottles and labels. Spread this podcast and this message to everyone you know in wine. Because it will take all of us, and we’ll need to work with the glass producers too.
I was at a local wine fair yesterday here in Los Angeles for natural wine producers. I think every producer and supporter there was philosophically receptive to this kind of change, but what was lacking was a moment in the center of that event where someone called everyone in attendance to attention and rallied us all together as community of like-minded individuals who have a lot of power to make that change happen, and appeal to us to take action to make this happen. This is that appeal.
And if you are hosting or organizing an event or know someone who is, please consider structuring that moment into your festival. Whether it’s to instigate action to create a bottle re-use program, or a three-minute appeal to make any other change happen that we desperately need to make, I’m beginning to feel like these festivals are missed opportunities to do something important.
We have linear systems in place right now. Linear systems can only exist if we assume the earth’s resources are infinite, if we assume that we can continue to take without giving back. We all know this assumption is tragically wrong – linear systems all have dead ends, and so it’s time to set up a new circular system based on the assumption that our world and its resources are precious and finite and require us to give back on the same level at which we take. This conversation is about how we start to do that.
Resources, bottle skus, and label specs for a re-use system at:
OrganicWinePodcast.com
OOM.earth/owp
To help make this positive change happen, please join our patreon community.
Prepare to go on a magical, and at times hilarious, journey to a special place on earth.
Your guide on this journey is Jess Hopwood, and she has a lot of experience spoiling voyagers with amazing trips. She has been, among other things, a flight attendant on private jets, a butler on luxury yachts, and now runs Farm to Glass Wine Tours in the Okanagan Valley of British Columbia. The Okanagan is that special place on earth. The furthest north location on the planet with a hot Mediterranean climate, the Okanagan centers on a lake that runs 81 miles north to south and is surrounded by beautiful towns, towering mountains, Mediterranean blue lakes, and wine. I have to admit that I was woefully ignorant of this area, but it has jumped to the top of my list of wine regions to visit thanks to Jess.
Jess guides us through the climate, the scenery, the history, and some of the amazing people, farming, and wines that can be found in the Okanagan. This is by no means an exhaustive accounting of producers who are doing great farming and making amazing fermentations. The Okanagan is a large and diverse region with much more to be discovered, but I think you’ll be enchanted even by just this short day trip.
Jess visited me on a recent trip to LA and brought some unique wines from the Naramata sub-region of the Okanagan, and we discuss these wines and their producers, and the beauty of this place where vines grow on benchland cliffs over the lake, and the land was named for a famous smile. The Okanagan is at the forefront of organic, or better, agriculture, in Canada, and Jess focuses on small, local producers who do great farming. At the end of the day, before a final refreshing dip in the lake, Jess takes us on a quick trip up the Similkameen – a river valley with sheer mountain walls that flows into the Okanagan and is known as the organic capital of Canada.
https://farmtoglasswinetours.ca/
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Master Sommelier David Keck discovered his love for wine while pursuing a career—and traveling the world—as an opera singer. He has a Master of Music Degree from Rice University, an undergraduate degree in English and Comparative Literature from Columbia University and attended Juilliard for opera performance.
After years of bartending and working in hospitality between operatic gigs, David took his first sommelier course with the Court of Master Sommeliers in 2010 and decided to make the career change. David was named one of Food & Wine’s Sommeliers of the Year in 2016, and passed his Master Sommelier exam later that year, making him the 149th American Master Sommelier and the 233rd in the world. He was awarded the StarChefs Rising Stars Restaurateur of the Year award in 2019. He has presented seminars for the Court of Master Sommeliers, GuildSomm, Vine Society, and numerous other educational organizations, as well as being a featured presenter at events such as the Aspen Food & Wine Classic, Pebble Beach Food & Wine, Nantucket Food & Wine, and many others. He is a sought-after wine judge for competitions both nationally and abroad.
Since going full-force into the hospitality field, he has worked in every aspect of the beverage industry: He has opened restaurants, wine bars, honky-tonks and retail shops, worked as a sales rep. and directed wine programs for distribution companies, and now farms a vineyard and makes wine with hybrid grapes in the mountains of his home state, Vermont, under the label Stella 14 with his partner Lauren.
https://www.stella14wines.com/
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My guest for this episode is Clark Smith. Clark has been making and studying wine since the 1970’s. He’s had a huge influence on the wine world through his wine consulting business, and in 2013 he published the book Postmodern Winemaking. Ten years later, that book is still groundbreaking.
Clark knows more than you do about the chemistry of winemaking. In addition to that, he’ll tell you he has a bit of an ego. He may say some things that rub you the wrong way. He may say some things that you find hard to believe. He may say some things that contradict everything you know. But he may also say some things that enlighten you and revolutionize your winemaking. There really isn’t a way to pigeon-hole him. Clark is candid, transparent, a bit of a pot-stirrer, and in pursuit of the most soulful wine he can make.
In the past he has been the whipping boy for the natural wine press, partly for his embrace of new technologies, and partly for his willingness to confront hype with science. Depending on your convictions, you can fault him or thank him for introducing reverse osmosis and micro-oxygenation to American wine, but you cannot fault him for concealing his use of techniques or technologies in his winemaking… which is more than I can say for some who claim to make natural wine. You may disagree with him, but make sure you understand him before you dismiss him.
We cover A LOT of ground in this conversation, including:
What wine really is – the googe-ness of wine
Minerality comes from living soil
Why brix has nothing to do with ripeness, and how determining ripeness takes a personal relationship with a vineyard
Why watering back wine increases its aromatic and color intensity
Why he makes his best wines without sulfites, and how everything that’s common knowledge about sulfites in wine is wrong
Why Brettanomyces is a hospital disease, and why a living wine with good structure beats it.
Wine Diamonds
White Wine making
Sweet Wine making
And Much more.
Buckle in… maybe grab a note pad… and
Enjoy!
https://whoisclarksmith.com/
https://winesmithwines.com/
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Drew Herman – Assume Superiority, Farm Scared, and Pretend Like You Know What You’re Doing While Killing Your Plants
Imagine if you were a thousand foot tall giant. How successful would you be at helping a 5 foot tall farmer collect her chickens eggs? Drew Herman is back for a second episode jam-packed with information and laughs. If you haven’t listened to the previous episode with Drew, I highly recommend checking it out first. It was episode # 74, published back in July of 2022 and was titled Microbial Democracy for a Healthy Vineyard and World. In this new episode, Drew discusses the game changing discovery of rhizophagy and what that means for the way we farm wine… and he manages to crack me up with memorable quips about once a minute. Drew wants to impress upon us how each new discovery about the soil microbiome and the way plants function with it shows how little we know. We discuss plants’ incredible genetic intelligence and the need to start assuming that they know vastly more than we do about how to take care of them.. We discuss recently discovered fallacies about fallowing and soil pH. We talk about the desperate need to reintroduce breeding new vines as standard practice in wine, and the stunning genetic potential in a seed, including a full arsenal of microbiology that actually teaches it how to grow. Given our deepening understanding of our ignorance, Drew beseeches us to stop blundering around with fertilization and pesticide programs, the impacts of which we really don’t understand. The vines we farm, as it turns out, are much better farmers than we are… and our efforts to help them usually just get in their way. Like a mushroom foraging expedition, there are non-sequitur delights scattered throughout this conversation all the way through to the end when Drew discusses the importance of voles and how to manage them in the vineyard. He also offers numerous free resources to deepen your knowledge and learn how much we have to learn.
Drew is vineyard manager at JK Carriere wines in Oregon, but I think his true gift may be in making deep soil science as fun as playing in the dirt… hopefully playing in the dirt sounds fun to you. If not… well, just think of something fun, and then associate that with Drew.
Enjoy!
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VT Vineyards - plant your own vineyard
When I think of Vermont, I think of slanted light and moody skies, wildflowers and rosy cheeks, small farms and big forests. And because of my guest for this episode, when I think of Vermont I also think of hardy vines and delicious wines. Deirdre Heekin is the person behind La Garagista and Domaine de la Foret, along with her husband Caleb, and what seems to be a continual stream of young winemakers who help and learn and have become the next generation of Vermont wine.
Deirdre is a restauranteur, vigneron, writer, photographer, mentor, gardener… and more, and that means we cover a lot of ground in this conversation. We talk about the magic of the forest and why grapevines are integral to the forest edge ecology that we aim to replicate with holistic, regenerative agriculture. We talk about Deirdre’s approach to farming Brianna, which involves not pruning it. She also shares some of the unique approaches she has developed for making cider and wine and co-ferments and other things that don’t have names, by gleaning from ancient techniques and by learning from nature and the opportunities it presents to work with it to create one-of-a-kind fermentations.
https://www.lagaragista.com/
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My guest for this episode is Hans Peter Schmidt. He goes by Peter Schmidt, and he is a director and faculty member for the Ithaka Institute, an international network for carbon strategies and climate farming, and he farms and makes wine from the amazing Mythopia wine-ecosystem in Switzerland, which he also uses as a research vineyard for the Ithaka Institute. He’s also involved in other winegrowing projects around southern Europe, and has a pretty big reputation for his approach to wine.
In this interview we cover viticulture, winemaking, and the philosophy of wine. Peter may be the most non-interventionist – or natural or naturalistic – winemaker I’ve ever encountered. You may think him strange for some of the things he does with wine, and you may think him mad for some of the things he doesn't do. You’ll hear how these things are even possible. Hint: it has to do with mindset as much as ecology.
Peter makes wine in a way that, once you hear its simplicity, could revolutionize your own winemaking. If you end up making wine in the way that Peter does, Peter only requests that you send him a bottle to thank him for the idea… a sort of intellectual property royalty payment. I for sure at least want to try a batch of wine the way Peter makes – or really doesn’t make it.
Peter ends the conversation with a perspective, or really a meditation, or how wine fits into the human story. Like so much of this conversation, it merely scratches the surface and gives a glimpse of many beautiful things that we can begin to explore.
Enjoy!
https://www.mythopia.ch/mythopia/fe/de
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My guest for this episode is Virginia Samsel. Virginia is a unique kind of vineyard, or orchard, consultant. She provides energy work and consultation using a synthesis of biodynamics and reiki. She translates the the messages she receives from a site into helpful advice for the people who care for it, and that can help farmers build a spiritual connection to their land.
Much of this conversation is at and beyond the limits of our language to express. So it’s important to be open. You may not be able to go along with Virginia on everything, and that’s okay. I think you will find that she doesn’t subtract from anything you already know, and she can add some new ways of seeing and knowing your landscape.
She gives us some really important tips on how to begin to connect with the land and the things living in it. She talks about spending Non-transactional time with your vines and or trees. Developing a relationship with your site that includes being vulnerable and allowing it to get to know the other parts of you beyond just your farmer side. She offers ideas about how to relate to the land and develop it as more than just a production facility. She reminds us that tending our vineyards is synonymous with tending ourselves.
Ultimately, this interview is full of resources for turning this Anthropocene, or capitalocene, into an Ecocene of renewed connectivity.
Enjoy!
https://vavadynamica.com/
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One of the sponsors for this episode is actually the guest for this episode: Stephen Wilson of Vermont Vineyards. I met Stephen at the Vitinord Conference, where VT Vineyards was also a sponsor, and I admired him and his approach to viticulture enough to suggest that we have this conversation… and I guess the feeling was mutual because he simultaneously suggested sponsoring the podcast. The result is that you can go to VTVineyards.com/owp and hire Stephen to install a vineyard for you, and that vineyard installation will support this podcast.
If you’ve considered planting your own vineyard, or even just putting in a few vines for landscaping features, like over a pergola or fence, then you’ll find this conversation helpful. Since both Stephen and I plant vineyards in backyards or even larger landscapes – or front yards in my case – and since we do this in the very different contexts of Southern California and Vermont, we have a wide range of perspectives and approaches to compare and discuss. We don’t get highly technical, but we do get to some of the dirty details and realities of being a vineyard caretaker. So there’s some very valuable information for potential vineyard owners and some important ideas for everyone to consider. And both Stephen and I find tending vines to be very rewarding work on multiple levels. Stephen’s idea for VT Vineyards was born during the pandemic, and grew from a desire to heal and enrich other people’s lives with a reconnection to the natural world through vines.
Stephen and I talk about the Vermont wine scene, and we both want to acknowledge that we couldn’t talk about everyone. There are, and have been, many winegrowers who we didn’t mention by name who have done much important work for Vermont wine. Since this was not a conversation about the history of Vermont wine, we inevitably omitted lots of people who deserve mention and respect.
Enjoy, and Happy Spring!
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This episode is about making room for the unknown. Or the known, but unmeasurable. If making wine means more than botany and chemistry to you, if you find yourself so deep in the soil that you've started making mycorrhizal connections, if you've begun to notice that what we talk about when we talk about wine is connected to things that have nothing to do with wine... this episode is for you.
A big thanks to Chiara Shannon and Darek Trowbridge for candidly discussing these ideas. We’d really like to know what you think about this episode, so please email any comments, or questions to connect@organicwinepodcast.com. We only scratch the surface of this topic, but I think you’ll find some inspiring ideas including:
Darek’s proposal of Sacred Grade wine, quite a few books and resources to check out, a discussion of some of the as yet unmeasurable aspects of Biodynamics, with a really amazing story that Darek shares about the efficacy of the 501 preparation and how he made believers of his entire vineyard crew. And we talk in many ways about regeneration and rewilding, how these land-centered ideas are connected to and echoed inside us, as well as how our interior lives get reflected in how we care for our land and our vines.
https://www.mindfulwine.co/
https://www.oldworldwinery.com/
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I’d like to introduce you to a source of inspiration for me personally, and my guest for this episode: Marreya Bailey. Marreya’s winery is Mad Marvlus, which, as she mentions, sounds like a super hero name. And maybe that’s appropriate. Marreya doesn’t really make wine with Mad Marvlus, she creates living embodiments of personality and spirit that you can drink. She calls them her creatures. Don’t expect just grapes, but any and every natural thing that produces sugar and flavor in her environment. Don’t expect traditional wine either, unless by traditional you mean the actual traditions from cultures around the globe that were practiced for millennia prior to this strange thing that has happened for the last fifty years.
Marreya is also the founding mother and co-partner of The Bathing Collective, which you’ll have to listen to find out what it is… and the future that it hopes to bring about.
www.madmarvlus.com
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My guest for this episode is J Stephen Casscles, author of the book Grapes of the Hudson Valley, and grower of 106 varieties of hybrids and heritage wine grapes in the Hudson Valley.
If I were to boil this entire episode down into one message it would be to Treat hybrids like real grapes!
We talk all about the benefits and characteristics of these heritage and hybrid grapes. We talk about the added benefits of growing grapes on their own roots, rather than rootstock. We talk about why hybrids were banned in France. We talk about the benefits of the greater productivity of these grapes, the benefits of the disease resistance of these grapes. We talk about making wine from hybrids, and how they can immensely expand your palate of flavors to work with.
Stephen has a wealth of information to share and this interview is a non-stop firehose of wine knowledge.
https://www.hudsonvalleyheritagewines.com/
Sponsors:
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My guest for this episode is Ryan Opaz. His wine journey has led him to become a thoughtful wine business owner with deep ecological consciousness gained from decades of working at nearly every level of the wine industry. Besides being the founder and CEO of Catavino, with his wife and partner Gabriella he runs a natural and organic wine shop in Porto, Portugal, co-authored and was the photographer of the James Beard Award-nominated book Foot-Trodden: Portugal and the wines that time forgot. Previously he was also the photographer for the book The Amber Revolution, and a book about Porto’s Portugal’s Historic Bolhão Market. For his service to the Portugese wine industry he has also been inducted as a Knight of the Port Wine Brotherhood. Yes, this this is a conversation with not only a Knight, but a wine Knight.
One of the admirable qualities of Ryan that comes up in this interview is his desire to remind all of us in wine that answers to questions and solutions to problems aren’t universally applicable and timeless. That is, the issues we face are complex, context-dependent, and we would be wise to resist the impulse to simplify questions to single answers, or problems to single solutions, and even when we think we have found a way forward, we should continue to research and explore and be willing to find that we need to change our approach again next year.
We also talk a lot about emissions offsets. If you’ve been paying attention to the news about carbon offsets, from John Oliver to the Guardian, you’ll know that there are a lot of problems with offsets. In fact there are more than problems… there is a massive amount of deception and outright fraud. Ryan brings up some really interesting ideas about offsets that I think are important to consider, and his efforts to make his wine tourism company less wasteful and more ecologically positive have brought up some really good questions that I think we will all be wrestling with over the next decade or so. And I’m currently in discussion with a reputable company who provides offsets to do a future episode entirely devoted to the hard questions around these issues. So stay tuned.
The most important thing may not be that we seek ways to offset every ounce of carbon from our footprint, but that we begin to see that all of our choices and actions have ecological consequences, that there is a cost to everything we do, and if we aren’t paying for it, it’s likely that the earth or someone or something else is.
Full disclosure: Ryan’s company is a sponsor for the Organic Wine Podcast, and you can support this podcast by visiting CatavinoTours.com/OWP for organic wine podcast. I’m glad to have them for a sponsor, and I think this interview will help you see why.
Other Sponsors Include:
https://www.oom.earth/ Use referral code OWP
https://www.centralaswine.com/
And the most direct way you can support this podcast is:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Thank you!
My guest for this episode is Hoss Hauksson, and he practices a form of viticulture in Switzerland that integrates elements of vitiforestry or a silvoculture polyculture, using a biodynamic approach, with the world’s smallest sheep and technologies like drone spraying and UV robots. His wine takes the idea of terroir literally, incorporating medicinal and aromatic herbs and trees as infusions in both the vineyard ecosystem and in his pinot noir.
In other words, I think I discovered my long lost soul twin.
Hoss is one of the only, if not the one and only, Icelandic winemakers on earth, (which means he’s probably related to Steve Matthiasson) and he tells us about his journey from wanting to be “the hero winemaker” to a focus on just becoming a good farmer.
Hoss’s holistic, ecological view of fostering a healthy farm ecosystem from which the best, most interesting wine can be made, leads us from some really important discussion about the soil microbiome through to expressing terroir by making a pet-nat infused with wormwood, hyssop, and yarrow. Along the way we find out the importance of promoting a fungal-dominant soil that recreates the forest floor from which vines evolved, how he uses different trees and herbs for different purposes in and around the vines, and how his adorable miniature sheep are vital to the entire ecosystem.
Fertile nuggets of information, rich with wisdom, are scattered everywhere through this interview like sheep poop in a vineyorchard. You’re in for a treat.
Hauksson Wine
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.catavinotours.com/owp
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This is a special episode in which I ask the question:
Why hasn’t the wine industry term “New World” gone the way of other problematic terms like “Oriental”?
For a while now, something about the use of the term “New World” has grated on me. As someone who lives and makes wine in one of the myriad parts of the world described by this term, I couldn’t help but notice how different are the cultures within this term and yet how homogenous is the “wine” culture.
This term began to bother me more and more. It makes most of the world of wine referential and derivative. It makes us imitators.
In truth, I think it makes us colonial subjects. Not of a political power, but of an idea: the global colonial monoculture known as “wine.”
I think it’s time we stop using the term “New World” (and “Old World” for that matter). I think it’s time we create a new world of wine.
I’m also thrilled to introduce you to a great new service that can significantly reduce the wine industry’s carbon footprint and waste: Oom. Oom provides clean reused bottles for the wine industry, and as a sponsor of this podcast, if you use the referral code “OWP” when you contact them for your bottle order, you can support the Organic Wine Podcast.
Contact Oom & Use referral code OWP
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Thank you for your support!
My guest for this episode is Haley Brown, the Executive Director of Wine Growers Nova Scotia, and this is a very special episode for multiple reasons. First, believe it or not, this is the first episode of the Organic Wine Podcast about a specific region and wine that is made outside the borders of the United States. I know those of you not from the US are probably thinking “It’s about time!” And you’re not wrong, but I have been really intentional about this focus. I think change always starts locally, and also there’s a lot I think we need to change in the US. But I’m really excited to crack that international seal with Nova Scotia because they are doing something unique and brilliant with Tidal Bay wine.
If this isn’t your first episode of the Organic Wine Podcast, you probably know that I want to bring an end to varietal labeling of wines. I stopped listing grape varieties on the wines I make with my winery Centralas as of the 2021 vintage, and I’ve been talking about the need to do away with our varietal obsession ever since. I think it turns wine into a commodity rather than a cultural process. It inhibits change and innovation, and it forces growers to conform to market trends rather than adapt to environmental conditions. And it has resulted in, as Haley mentions, 80% of the world’s wine being made from 20 varieties of grapes (all of which are a single species btw). Aside from the negative ecological effects of this global monoculture, it has also made wine incredibly boring (and then we wonder why sales are declining). But as the lone voice for how eliminating varietal labeling could benefit the entire wine industry, after a couple years of spreading this message I found that most people received this message with confusion at best, and at worst I was dismissed as that crazy guy from Los Angeles… which, you know, is fair to an extent. And as a self-critical kind of person, some pernicious doubts did begin to creep into my mind. But then, at the Vitinord conference in December, I discovered Tidal Bay.
Tidal Bay is the first and only appellation wine in North or South America. That is, it is a wine that is made, branded, and sold as a reflection of place and culture without reliance on varietal labelling. And honestly, for the first of something, I think the Nova Scotians did something that needs no refinement. The way they have conceived of and structured Tidal Bay is brilliant. It’s flexible, inclusive, rigorous, reflective of their unique culture, and ensures high quality. After you listen to this, let me know if you can think of any way to improve on this idea, or why it couldn’t be implemented in any region where there are growers willing to participate.
A big thanks to Haley for elucidating all of the details of Tidal Bay, and a big thanks to the Nova Scotian growers who have given us this incredible and successful example.
https://winesofnovascotia.ca/tidal-bay-nova-scotias-signature-wine/
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.catavinotours.com/owp
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Greg Jones is my guest for this episode. Greg is the CEO of Abacela winery in Oregon and is a world-renowned wine climatologist. For over thirty years his research has firmly linked weather and climate with grapevine growth, fruit chemistry, and wine characteristics in regions all around the globe. His work was also one of the first to tie climate change to fundamental biological phenomena in vines and the resulting influences on productivity and quality. His groundbreaking work has informed and influenced the wine industry across the globe, and we talk about what it means to apply the science of climate change to growing wine.
Oregon is unique in the wine world in that it is known to outsiders mostly for a single variety of grape – Pinot Noir. Abacela happens to be the first winery to plant Tempranillo in the pacific northwest, and Greg talks about how important it is to diversify and experiment, especially in response to the data of climate change. And he makes great points about the untapped genetic resources within just the single species of Vitis Vinifera.
You can see Greg’s presentation on Wine and climate change from the VitiNord coference at organicwinepodcast.com
https://www.abacela.com/
https://www.climateofwine.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.catavinotours.com/owp
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My guest for this episode is Mike Appolo and he tells us all about how he is growing a no-spray vineyard in New Hampshire less than an hour from Boston.
Yes, I said “no spray.” You may have heard it’s impossible. You may smugly reject the possibility of success. But Mike is growing wine grapes in New England without sprays and has been for over a decade at his estate winery Appolo Vineyards. Appolo Vineyards was just this month named the New Hampshire’s First Winery in the Sustainable Craft Beverage Recognition Program. After listening to this interview I think you’ll agree that it’s a well deserved honor. Mike is growing winegrapes in a place where summers are hot and humid, winters can be brutal, and wild turkeys are one of the birds that regularly eat your grapes. It’s also a place of beautiful wines.
Listen closely to what Mike says, but also what’s behind what he says. There’s a something rock steady about Mike. He seems undaunted by the numerous challenges inherent in what he’s doing. I think this is guided in part by a humility and openness to learning, both from other vintners and from nature itself. Another part of this is valuing the legacy that he his building. It’s a legacy of valuing the health and life of his world over easy profit, and he’s showing that it’s not only possible, but delicious.
https://www.appolovineyards.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.catavinotours.com/owp
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My guests for this episode are Aaron and Holly Puhala, the owners of Vineyard Innovations in Ohio. Aaron & Holly met in school where they both studied chemical engineering… this chemical romance blossomed into a life where they breed new varieties of grapes that the world has never seen before. They’ve been at this for 20 years now, and have a handful of varieties to share with the world, as well as some really great ideas about how to make grape breeding a profitable venture for more people. But I want to let their own words, from their website, serve as the introduction to this conversation:
There is a quiet revolution happening in the world of wine. Growers everywhere are facing the realities of a changing climate and considering replacing their established wine grape varieties with others that are more suited to the challenges of modern viticulture. At the same time, consumers facing a sea of sameness are seeking out new and exciting wines crafted by artisans with a passionate focus on creating quality wines with authenticity of place. Perhaps never before has the table been set more perfectly for the emergence of new grape varieties that answer the needs and desires of both winegrower and consumer. At Vineyard Innovations we create new wine grape varieties having resistance to the extremes of climate and disease pressure that are perfectly suited to sustainable, organic and biodynamic viticultural practices. Exciting aroma and flavor combinations are paving the way for the emergence of iconic wines that will open the door to the exploration of new terroirs that today are unreachable!
Welcome to a New World of Wine!
https://www.vineyardinnovations.com/
Podcast website:
https://www.organicwinepodcast.com/
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page.
Thank you!
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Isabelle Legeron. Isabelle is the founder of the RAW Wine Festival, which, if you haven’t heard of it, is the premier natural wine festival on the planet. She’s also the author of the book Natural Wine: An Introduction to Organic and Biodynamic Wines Made Naturally. Isabelle’s career is dedicated to promoting the same farming-first wine culture that I want to cultivate with the Organic Wine Podcast, so she was a natural choice for the 100th episode.
This episode starts with some personal revelations from both of us about why we do what we do. We talk about how Isabelle tries to avoid dogma and debate about the winemaking that happens in the cellar, and focuses instead on the need for organic farming to be the greatest priority in natural wine.
I challenge Isabelle about some of the limitations of natural wine, as well as her take on blind tasting, natural washing, and the benefits of participation in the RAW festival.
Isabelle is a champion of vignerons who take the risks inherent in farming and winemaking without chemicals. She forged a space for these folks in the wine world and really created a home for natural winemakers when they were misfits and outcasts from the mainstream. Now that natural wine is a bit more mainstream, and perhaps a bit diluted with bandwagoners, she continues to insist on a foundation in beautiful, chemical free farming that stewards the natural world and honors its beauty.
In her words, natural wine is a “gorgeous translation of what nature is capable of” and that’s why she continues to love and promote it.
https://www.rawwine.com/
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page.
Thank you!
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is Randall Grahm.
If you haven’t heard of him, Randall was New California about 20 years before the wave of New California winemakers. Young winemakers now who have never heard of him are just quote unquote discovering and trying things he did in the 1990s.
Alternative packaging? Randall was one of the first advocates in America for the screw cap and staged The Funeral for the Cork at Grand Central Station in NYC in 2002. This elaborate event included a buick hearse, a casket with a full sized corpse made of corks, and a eulogy by Jancis Robinson.
Alternative and obscure grape Varieties in the US? Randall was the original Rhone Ranger and appeared on the cover of Wine Spectator dressed as the Lone Ranger, with a horse, in 1989. With his winery, Bonny Doon, he helped introduce and popularize the Rhone varieties of grapes that we take for granted now. At its height, Bonny Doon was one of the largest wineries in America. In 1991 an asteroid was named “Rhoneranger” in his honor. In addition to crafting some other big brands, like Big House Red and Cardinal Zin, he continues to promote obscure and overlooked grape varieties, as you’ll hear in this interview.
Randall was an early proponent of ingredient labeling on wine bottles, as well as biodynamic farming.
In 1994 He was proclaimed the Wine and Spirits Professional of the Year by the James Beard Foundation, and in 2010 the Culinary Institute of America inducted him into the Vintner’s Hall of Fame.
In addition to being a very entertaining disruptor of the wine industry, Randall is an incredibly thoughtful winemaker and writer, and one of his guiding principles has been the pursuit of terroir. In this interview we dig into terroir and “wines of place,” attempting to determine if it is actually a helpful or beneficial concept, or if it is even real. Randall explains how he is testing a few new theories about terroir at his estate vineyard project, Popelouchum, in San Juan Bautista, where he’s growing myriad varieties of grapes, many from seed. And we discuss his partnership with Gallo on The Language of Yes project.
I hope this will make you want to learn more about Randall Grahm.
Enjoy!
https://www.popelouchum.com/
https://www.languageofyeswine.com/
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast.
Thank you!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
For this episode I got to interview a real life super hero – The Bat Man.
Dr. Dave Johnston is an Adjunct Associate Wildlife Ecologist and Bat Biologist at H. T. Harvey & Associates. Dave is a vertebrate ecologist who specializes in the foraging ecology and conservation biology of bats. He has studied bats for over 30 years and for the past 15 years he has focused on renewable energy and transportation projects in California and Hawaii. He also has ongoing research projects involving the foraging ecology of bats in California, Mexico, Belize, and more recently, in Costa Rica where he currently resides. Dr. Johnston is a hobby winemaker who started making wine as a student at CalPoly, San Luis Obispo.
Dr. Johnston describes the many ways bats are vital to our ecology generally, and to wine production specifically. As he explains how unique and diverse bats are, I think you’ll find yourself falling in love with bats, not only because of their importance to the ecology of wine but because they are such amazing creatures that we mostly overlook.
In addition to learning about some of the threats to bats – including pesticides and wind turbines – we learn how to attract bats to our vineyards and orchards, which we definitely want to do, and we learn what kinds of bats eat leaf hoppers, vineyard moths, Japanese beetles, and more. And you’re going to hear some fascinating things about the altruism of vampire bats, scorpion eating bats, and flowers that evolved as night blooming satellite dishes for echo-locating bats to pollinate them.
Join me on this nocturnal expedition to find out who is tending your vines while you sleep.
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Thank you!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guests for this episode are Tara Gomez and Mireia Taribó of Camins 2 Dreams winery in Lompoc, California.
In some partnerships one person will have the greater passion for or experience with wine, while business or marketing savvy may be the forte of the other partner. In Tara and Mireia’s case there are two partners who caught the winemaking bug early in life and have spent their entire lives, both apart and together, learning about and gaining experience in winemaking… and both contribute their depth of knowledge to the wines of Camins 2 Dreams. What I’m trying to say is that it just isn’t fair how delicious their wines are!
Mireia is from Barcelona and grew up steeped in Spanish wine culture. She has multiple undergraduate and graduate degrees in Chemistry, Enology, Viticulture and all things wine. She met Tara while the two of them were working at J Lohr in Paso Robles. Mireia then hired Tara to help her when she got a job making wine in the Pyrennee Mountains for several years.
Tara and Mireia are two of my local heroes, based in Lompoc in Santa Barbara County, sourcing grapes from some of the same Santa Rita Hills vineyards that I’ve used for Centralas wines. But it’s important for those of you who aren’t locals to understand that these areas – now part of the Santa Barbara wine country – are the traditional lands of the Chumash tribe, which included much of the central and southern California coast from Mailbu to Paso Robles.
Camins 2 Dreams is actually the label for Kalawashaq’ Wine Cellars (named for the village where Tara’s Chumash ancestors once lived) After J. Lohr, Tara started and made wine for her Chumash tribe under Kita Wines. She is the first recognized Native American winemaker, and made Kita the first winery to be run solely by its Native American tribe with fruit from their own lands. Tara was VinePair’s winemaker of the year in 2021.
Tara and Mireia started Camins 2 Dreams out of their shared love for wine, winemaking and each other, and I’m honored to share their story with you.
https://camins2dreams.com/
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Thank you!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Steven Thompson of Analemma. Analemma is a winery located in the Columbia Gorge AVA in the Columbia River Valley in Oregon. Steven views himself as a vigneron, with a holistic perspective that sees winemaking as a year round process that begins in the vineyard. Steven and the Anamlemma team have practiced biodynamic, regenerative farming since its inception and the entire farm has been certified as a biodynamic orgnaism since 2017.
I think you’ll love Steven’s soulful approach to farming that sees the interconnectedness of each aspect of an ecosystem. We dig into the seldom discussed aspect of farm aesthetics, and how important it is to farm beautifully, not just ecologically. Steven talks about a unique way that they approach terroir at Analemma by interplanting and creating a sort of vineyard infusion. And we discuss his process for making pied de cuves for starting fermentations naturally.
Steven reminded me that we can create a wine culture that is more than just functionally ecological, and commercially sustainable. We can create something that is beautiful, that feeds our soul, and that creates the same kind of same kind of sensory pleasure in the farm that we expect in the glass.
https://analemmawines.com/
Special thanks:
Chiara Shannon
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Thank you!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Max Paschal. Max owns Shelterwood Forest Farm and wrote the article The Lost Forest Gardens of Europe, a deeply researched piece on the polycultures that included grapes and wine and covered much of Europe for thousands of years. Max talks about why these agriculture systems were so resilient, and why they've been marginalized by modern agriculture.
Topics covered include:
Assisted migration of species, The spirit of trees, communication and intent, What a plant knows, Arboretum America, Lost forest gardens of Europe, the Temple of Diana in Rome and what that has to do with the need to be brave with our viticulture, Provignage – Layering and vineyard superorganisms, and of course Growing vines in trees.
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Thank you!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Show links:
https://www.shelterwoodforestfarm.com/
My guest for this episode is Laurel Marcus.
Laurel is the Executive Director of the California Land Stewardship Institute based in Napa, California, which administers the Fish Friendly Farming and Climate Adaptation Certifications for vineyards and other farmers.
Among her many responsibilities, Laurel works with farmers to conduct studies and gather data on farming practices that prevent erosion, preserve soil moisture, increase soil organic matter, and sequester carbon. Her findings provide some conclusive evidence about best practices, as well as eliminate green washing and carbon washing by showing that there are nuances and conditional dependencies for almost every scenario.
Some of the important things we discuss include how soil type and conditions, as well as the type of soil microbe populations, can impact carbon sequestration. And we discuss her findings about how dry farming and no-till systems affect these conditions, as well as some of the realities and misunderstandings about competition between cover crops and vines.
Also, Laurel digs into the seldom discussed topic of how the use of mineral nitrogen, rather than compost, and soil conditions can increase the production of nitrous oxide – the most potent greenhouse gas… about 300 times more potent than carbon dioxide.
This is an incredibly information rich interview and provides many practical resources – including funding resources – for how to do wine better. Laurel shows how careful we have to be, in the frenzy to do good, to not think that there are one size fits every situation bumper sticker solutions to our problems. This conversation has inspired me to look even more deeply at these issues, and I hope it does the same for you.
If you'd like to support this podcast, please subscribe on the Organic Wine Podcast Patreon page:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Thank you!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Show links:
https://www.fishfriendlyfarming.org/
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/healthysoils/
My guest for this episode is Ryland Englehart. Ryland co-founded Kiss the Ground in 2013 and leads the organization as Executive Director, producer of the Kiss the Ground film, and host of the Kiss the Ground Podcast. As a 15-year entrepreneur, he is also the co-owner and prior Mission Fulfilment Officer of the nationally recognized plant-based restaurants, Cafe Gratitude and Gracias Madre, located here in Southern California. And so much more.
I met Ryland at a vineyard in Santa Barbara that has been purchased for the express purpose of converting it from a conventional and extractive form of viticulture to a regenerative organic ranch. The occasion of our meeting was a fundraiser for Kiss the Ground, the organization. If you haven’t seen the film documentary Kiss The Ground I can’t recommend it enough. It’s the movie that introduced regenerative agriculture to over 10 million viewers worldwide. If you’re a Netflix subscriber you can watch it tonight.
Let me speak plainly: regardless of what kind of agriculture you’re in, whether it’s viticulture, pommeculture, or otherwise, regenerative agriculture is the best solution to industrial agriculture’s degradation of our environment, If you’re wondering what exactly regenerative agriculture is, Ryland gives a great explanation right at the beginning.
Ryland may be regenerative agriculture’s biggest spokesperson. And in this conversation he talks about wine’s unique ability to communicate the story and benefits of regenerative agriculture.
There’s something infectiously hopeful about listening to Ryland speak. He is brutally honest about the realities we face, but he also has a long view perspective that is rare. He’s at the center of a growing global movement that is heading in the right direction. And it’s hard not to come away feeling that he’s just a spokesperson for the earth and vines and plants themselves.
https://kisstheground.com/
Support:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Mark Shepard. I’m so excited to share this conversation with you because Mark has a perspective on viticulture and agriculture in general that is revolutionary… while also being incredibly common sensical. He’s as funny as he is passionate and that passion comes from wanting to share an incredibly important message not only for producing wine, but also for our survival.
Mark is the author of Restoration Agriculture which is a top 10 Amazon best seller in multiple categories. Restoration agriculture is his term for ecomimicry permaculture or multi-story perennial polyculture using what thrives naturally in your ecosystems. He practices this at scale on his 110 acre New Forest Farm in Wisconsin, and on several other properties, and he provides agricultural consulting around the planet.
One of the quotes from his book that stood out to me is when he is talking about our conventional, monoculture approach, and says, “We have created the conditions under which pests and diseases thrive, while almost completely ceasing the improvement of the crops’ own resistance to the threats we have created.”
This is so true in wine, where we have a global monoculture of a handful of European grapes that have been propagated by cloning for two hundred years or more. And in the last 50 years we’ve spent literally billions of dollars developing chemicals to enable these clones to survive, while investing very little in breeding new varieties that don’t need the chemicals… or in expanding the idea of wine to include other ingredients besides European grapes.
Mark doesn’t spray his fruit, whether it’s apples or cherries or chestnuts or grapevines, he employs a kind of vitiforestry, and his approach to agriculture illuminates some incredible perspective shifts in how we could think about growing grapevines differently… as well as how we could think about wine differently… as one symbiotic element in a holistic perennial polyculture.
Support the Organic Wine Podcast:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
This is episode is something a little different, and it’s sponsored by Centralas Wine. Centralas is my winery and the first chapter of this two chapter episode is a recording I made while driving around los angeles, as we angelenos are wont to do, so I apologize for the quality. But the content is pretty fun. The context is that I’ve stopped listing grape varieties on the labels for the wines I make and sell through Centralas. Since I made that decision, I’ve become hyper aware of how important grape varieties have become as handles that we think we need to understand a wine. It is literally the first thing people ask when I present one of our wines. This has led to some pretty interesting discussions and even debates. But Rather than make me think I made a mistake in not listing varieties, I’m more committed than ever to being the lone voice, if need be, calling for an end to our varietal obsession. I’m actually pretty convinced we’ve all been brain-washed by the global capitalist monoculture into thinking that knowing the variety of grape is necessary to understand a wine. So there you go… that should set up Chapter one as a fun and somewhat funny take on varietal labeling.
And chapter two, while very different, is very symbiotic. It’s called Why Wine is Important, and I think you’ll be a bit surprised at the answer I give, because I try to answer that question from a different perspective so to speak. And that perspective is really the same perspective that chapter one comes from. I don’t want to give anything away, so I’ll leave it at that.
Support the Organic Wine Podcast:
https://www.patreon.com/organicwinepodcast
Episode Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Paul Dolan.
Paul Dolan has always been a pioneer leading the industry towards a more sustainable future. While a winemaker and then president at Fetzer, Paul proved to the California wine industry that wineries and grape growers can preserve and enhance their environment, strengthen their communities, and enrich the lives of their employees without sacrificing the bottom line. He introduced Bonterra, the first nationally distributed wine made with 100 percent organic grapes, placing Fetzer at the forefront of organic viticulture. Paul’s experiences at Fetzer led him to publish “True to Our Roots- Fermenting a Business Revolution” that set forth the simple but powerful management principles that enabled Fetzer to become one of America’s best- known wineries and an exemplar of sustainable business practices.
Through his leadership at the California Wine Institute, Paul introduced the Code of Sustainable Wine Growing and chaired the Institute from 2006 – 2007. He also served on President Clinton’s Council on Sustainability, Businesses for Social Responsibility, and The Climate Group, was Chairman of the California Sustainable Winegrowers Alliance, and received the Environmental Business Leader of the Year Award from the California Planning and Conservation League in 2006.
Paul has become a spokesman for and practitioner of regenerative winegrowing. He serves on the board of the Regenerative Organic Alliance, and farms his family-owned Dark Horse Ranch as a multi-faceted certified Biodynamic® vineyard and regenerative farm, and is a founding partner of Truett-Hurst Winery. He is constantly seeking to enhance his understanding of the restorative capacity of the soil and the farm, and its relationship to the restoration of the health of the planet’s ecosystems.
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Guest Interviewer Chiara Shannon (@theyogisommelier www.theyogisommelier.com) interviews the creator and producer of the Organic Wine Podcast, Adam Huss. Adam talks about what he is doing with wine and vines in South Los Angeles with his winery Crenshaw Cru and his estate urban polyculture winegarden Crenshaw Cru.
Some of the things that we talk about include: how viticulture is actually a form of agroforestry, how my urban polyculture winegarden known as Crenshaw Cru embodies a vision for the future of wine, how embracing local indigenous fruit can grow a diverse, resilient, and colorful wine culture, how human culture is part of your vineyard, and how all of this results from the revolutionary ecological approach to wine that makes our current wine culture seem completely backwards.
https://www.centralaswine.com/
In this episode I get to talk to the co-founders and winemakers for RAS Wines - Dan Roche, Joe Appel and Emily Smith.
Dan, Joe, and Emily make a dry sparkling wine from Maine wild blueberries, and we talk about some of the incredible aspects of this unique wine culture.
Maine wild blueberries are one of the few fruits indigenous to and perfectly suited to the challenging terroir of Maine. Even though they occur naturally – thus the “wild” aspect – they are actively tended as a commercial crop. I’m fascinated by this kind of agriculture which shows a way that we humans can integrate with natural ecosystems and be instrumental to their health and vitality, while also using them to support our own health and survival.
Working with and selling wine made from a fruit that isn’t grapes and for which consumers have many preconceptions, has given Dan, Joe, and Emily some profound insights into wine in general. They want us to ask ourselves: Is what we think we know about wine actually limiting our experience of it? They have realized how much we need to unlearn, and are part of a domestic wine scene that is locally based, resourceful, creative, as diverse as the land they make wine from, and the most exciting part of wine today, I think.
As they say, we don’t expect wine made from Cabernet Franc to taste like a grape, so why do we have different expectations for blueberries?
I’m excited to share these winemakers with you and the unique world of Maine wild blueberries that they are helping to share through their wine.
https://raswines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
In this episode I get to talk to the co-founders and winemakers for RAS Wines - Dan Roche, Joe Appel and Emily Smith.
Dan, Joe, and Emily make a dry sparkling wine from Maine wild blueberries, and we talk about some of the incredible aspects of this unique wine culture.
Maine wild blueberries are one of the few fruits indigenous to and perfectly suited to the challenging terroir of Maine. Even though they occur naturally – thus the “wild” aspect – they are actively tended as a commercial crop. I’m fascinated by this kind of agriculture which shows a way that we humans can integrate with natural ecosystems and be instrumental to their health and vitality, while also using them to support our own health and survival.
Working with and selling wine made from a fruit that isn’t grapes and for which consumers have many preconceptions, has given Dan, Joe, and Emily some profound insights into wine in general. They want us to ask ourselves: Is what we think we know about wine actually limiting our experience of it? They have realized how much we need to unlearn, and are part of a domestic wine scene that is locally based, resourceful, creative, as diverse as the land they make wine from, and the most exciting part of wine today, I think.
As they say, we don’t expect wine made from Cabernet Franc to taste like a grape, so why do we have different expectations for blueberries?
I’m excited to share these winemakers with you and the unique world of Maine wild blueberries that they are helping to share through their wine.
https://raswines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Kelly Mulville’s life has been guided by an awe and respect for the natural world and a deep appreciation for its beauty. This led him to want to learn how to farm in a way that protected or enhanced the natural world, and made him a better listener and observer of what made ecosystems work. Through his years of farming he has attempted to answer the question of how we can turn agriculture from one of the most destructive forces on the planet into the method we can use to repair that damage and restore biodiversity and health to ecosystems?
Kelly’s journey has led him to test various kinds of grazing-based viticulture in many contexts throughout the west and south-west US, and to ultimately build a vineyard system that incorporates animals year round in central California at Paicines Ranch. The work he is doing is laying the foundation for what I think will be the future of viticulture, and Kelly lays out the vision and principles that guide it.
Kelly is working with vinifera that he basically doesn’t have to spray because of the system he has implemented and his attention to soil health, biodiversity, and amazing new findings around SAP brix analysis that is revolutionizing our understanding of how we can prevent insect pest issues. We get into the details of the Watson trellising system he uses now to create a kind of vine forest rather than a vineyard, as well as how to potentially integrate sheep year round into an existing VSP trellis system, ground squirrel management, the ecology of birds in viticultural and agricultural systems, and the amazing return of an endangered species for which his vineyard is helping to provide desirable habitat.
If you haven’t heard of Kelly Mulville, or the work he’s doing at Paicines Ranch, this is potentially revolutionary stuff. I could not be more impressed with Kelly’s humble, passionate, and compassionate approach to viticulture. He grounds everything he does in science and real, detailed data, because he sees everything he has accomplished so far as just the beginning, and he wants others to be able to learn from and build upon this work to do even better.
https://paicinesranch.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Kelly Mulville’s life has been guided by an awe and respect for the natural world and a deep appreciation for its beauty. This led him to want to learn how to farm in a way that protected or enhanced the natural world, and made him a better listener and observer of what made ecosystems work. Through his years of farming he has attempted to answer the question of how we can turn agriculture from one of the most destructive forces on the planet into the method we can use to repair that damage and restore biodiversity and health to ecosystems?
Kelly’s journey has led him to test various kinds of grazing-based viticulture in many contexts throughout the west and south-west US, and to ultimately build a vineyard system that incorporates animals year round in central California at Paicines Ranch. The work he is doing is laying the foundation for what I think will be the future of viticulture, and Kelly lays out the vision and principles that guide it.
Kelly is working with vinifera that he basically doesn’t have to spray because of the system he has implemented and his attention to soil health, biodiversity, and amazing new findings around SAP brix analysis that is revolutionizing our understanding of how we can prevent insect pest issues. We get into the details of the Watson trellising system he uses now to create a kind of vine forest rather than a vineyard, as well as how to potentially integrate sheep year round into an existing VSP trellis system, ground squirrel management, the ecology of birds in viticultural and agricultural systems, and the amazing return of an endangered species for which his vineyard is helping to provide desirable habitat.
If you haven’t heard of Kelly Mulville, or the work he’s doing at Paicines Ranch, this is potentially revolutionary stuff. I could not be more impressed with Kelly’s humble, passionate, and compassionate approach to viticulture. He grounds everything he does in science and real, detailed data, because he sees everything he has accomplished so far as just the beginning, and he wants others to be able to learn from and build upon this work to do even better.
https://paicinesranch.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guests for this episode are Nicole Dooling and Michael Frey. Nicole and Michael helped transition Nicole’s parents’ mountain top vineyard in Medocino into the first ever Savory Institute Global Land To Market Verified regenerative vineyard in the world. We talk in depth about the Land to Market cerification, which is results based, rather than process based like most other certifications, and takes most of the work of certification off the farmer’s to do list. And we talk about Nicole and Michael helped convince her parents, the Doolings, to make this transition after 40 years of pouring their hearts and souls into Mariah Vineyards, with a lot of respect and commitment to the economic as well as the ecological success of the farm. This generational transition and how to navigate it is vital to regenerative agriculture, and this conversation has some amazing insights into it.
There are some important new ideas including how to be regenerative as a winemaker or consumer even if you don’t do any farming personally, perspective shifts about transitioning to a nature based style of farming that may have a slightly more wild and messy aesthetic, and we mention several great resources mentioned for everyone interested in learning or doing more. And Nicole and Michael leave us with a challenge that if you claim to be regenerative, then show it with quantified results.
https://mariahvineyards.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guests for this episode are Nicole Dooling and Michael Frey. Nicole and Michael helped transition Nicole’s parents’ mountain top vineyard in Medocino into the first ever Savory Institute Global Land To Market Verified regenerative vineyard in the world. We talk in depth about the Land to Market cerification, which is results based, rather than process based like most other certifications, and takes most of the work of certification off the farmer’s to do list. And we talk about Nicole and Michael helped convince her parents, the Doolings, to make this transition after 40 years of pouring their hearts and souls into Mariah Vineyards, with a lot of respect and commitment to the economic as well as the ecological success of the farm. This generational transition and how to navigate it is vital to regenerative agriculture, and this conversation has some amazing insights into it.
There are some important new ideas including how to be regenerative as a winemaker or consumer even if you don’t do any farming personally, perspective shifts about transitioning to a nature based style of farming that may have a slightly more wild and messy aesthetic, and we mention several great resources mentioned for everyone interested in learning or doing more. And Nicole and Michael leave us with a challenge that if you claim to be regenerative, then show it with quantified results.
https://mariahvineyards.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Justine Belle Lambright of Kalche Wine. Together with Kathline Chery and Grace Meyer, Justine has founded Kalche as a worker cooperative. If you’re wondering what it would mean for a winery to be built as a worker owned business, that’s exactly what we talk about in this episode.
Justine goes into detail about what is involved in setting up and running a winery as a worker cooperative. Because of the hard work they have already put in with their co-owners, Justine is able to give us almost a step-by-step how-to that includes many of the strengths and weaknesses, challenges and opportunities, as well as giving some great reasons why you might want to do this as well.
If you’re sick of Big Wine, if you envision a more equitable way of running a winery, if you want a business that is run democratically, if you want to think of people as humans rather than as human resources, if you think business should serve human needs rather than the other way around, then this conversation is for you. Justine not only breaks down the details of how we might go about setting up our own worker cooperative, they also offer further resources and lifelines to provide practical help and information to anyone actually undertaking this kind of human-centered business building.
And we talk about Kalche’s Hybrid Space Juice and make a strong case for why American hybrid grapes need to be included in the mainstream of the wine current wherever it’s coming from.
Justine reads a poem, we meditate on death and consider a cosmic perspective on ourselves, and generally have a really fun, informative conversation.
https://www.kalchewine.co/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Justine Belle Lambright of Kalche Wine. Together with Kathline Chery and Grace Meyer, Justine has founded Kalche as a worker cooperative. If you’re wondering what it would mean for a winery to be built as a worker owned business, that’s exactly what we talk about in this episode.
Justine goes into detail about what is involved in setting up and running a winery as a worker cooperative. Because of the hard work they have already put in with their co-owners, Justine is able to give us almost a step-by-step how-to that includes many of the strengths and weaknesses, challenges and opportunities, as well as giving some great reasons why you might want to do this as well.
If you’re sick of Big Wine, if you envision a more equitable way of running a winery, if you want a business that is run democratically, if you want to think of people as humans rather than as human resources, if you think business should serve human needs rather than the other way around, then this conversation is for you. Justine not only breaks down the details of how we might go about setting up our own worker cooperative, they also offer further resources and lifelines to provide practical help and information to anyone actually undertaking this kind of human-centered business building.
And we talk about Kalche’s Hybrid Space Juice and make a strong case for why American hybrid grapes need to be included in the mainstream of the wine current wherever it’s coming from.
Justine reads a poem, we meditate on death and consider a cosmic perspective on ourselves, and generally have a really fun, informative conversation.
https://www.kalchewine.co/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Thank you to everyone who responded to the first episode about how to make clean, delicious natural wine. Your feedback was both encouraging and helpful. It became clear that there was a desire for this kind of information, and that there were things I needed to further explain from part 1.
This is a technical, detailed explanation of some of the important aspects of making wine naturally. If you haven't listened to part 1, this one will make a lot more sense if you do. Included in this part 2 episode are further discussions of optimal temperature and pH ranges for fermentation, everything you wanted to know about racking wine - when, how, how often, and why - and a comprehensive discussion of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in wine and how to avoid and manage it, and many other aspects of natural winemaking.
Enjoy!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Thank you to everyone who responded to the first episode about how to make clean, delicious natural wine. Your feedback was both encouraging and helpful. It became clear that there was a desire for this kind of information, and that there were things I needed to further explain from part 1.
This is a technical, detailed explanation of some of the important aspects of making wine naturally. If you haven't listened to part 1, this one will make a lot more sense if you do. Included in this part 2 episode are further discussions of optimal temperature and pH ranges for fermentation, everything you wanted to know about racking wine - when, how, how often, and why - and a comprehensive discussion of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in wine and how to avoid and manage it, and many other aspects of natural winemaking.
Enjoy!
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Erin Rasmussen. Erin has made wine in Napa and on New Zealand, where she also completed graduate studies in winemaking and viticulture at Lincoln University. She took this transnational, transcontinental wine experience and returned to her childhood home of Wisconsin, where she founded the American Wine Project in 2018.
With The American Wine Project Erin explores the American grape varieties adapted to her beautiful corner of Wisconsin. Erin is innovative, applying a natural approach to winemaking informed by her breadth of experience in other, very different wine regions, to make some very exciting wines in her cold climate.
I had such a fun time picking Erin’s brain that I forgot to have her introducer herself and the American Wine Project until the end, so this is a slightly topsy turvy conversation that covers a lot of ground with truffles of delicious insight buried throughout. Erin shares some unique findings relating to whole cluster fermentations and stem inclusion to manage both pH and tannins in American varieties of grapes. We talk about many different facets of sweet wine, including how it’s made, what its purpose is, and why we shouldn’t be prejudiced against is. She crushes my ill-informed dream of holding a Judgement of Paris for hybrids. And she shows so many reasons, both explicitly and implicitly, why American grapes are the future… and really are already the present.
I’m sure you’ll quickly be as impressed as I was with Erin’s brilliance and great sense of humor… There are as many laughs as perspective shifting ideas throughout this fun interview. Enjoy!
https://americanwineproject.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Erin Rasmussen. Erin has made wine in Napa and on New Zealand, where she also completed graduate studies in winemaking and viticulture at Lincoln University. She took this transnational, transcontinental wine experience and returned to her childhood home of Wisconsin, where she founded the American Wine Project in 2018.
With The American Wine Project Erin explores the American grape varieties adapted to her beautiful corner of Wisconsin. Erin is innovative, applying a natural approach to winemaking informed by her breadth of experience in other, very different wine regions, to make some very exciting wines in her cold climate.
I had such a fun time picking Erin’s brain that I forgot to have her introducer herself and the American Wine Project until the end, so this is a slightly topsy turvy conversation that covers a lot of ground with truffles of delicious insight buried throughout. Erin shares some unique findings relating to whole cluster fermentations and stem inclusion to manage both pH and tannins in American varieties of grapes. We talk about many different facets of sweet wine, including how it’s made, what its purpose is, and why we shouldn’t be prejudiced against is. She crushes my ill-informed dream of holding a Judgement of Paris for hybrids. And she shows so many reasons, both explicitly and implicitly, why American grapes are the future… and really are already the present.
I’m sure you’ll quickly be as impressed as I was with Erin’s brilliance and great sense of humor… There are as many laughs as perspective shifting ideas throughout this fun interview. Enjoy!
https://americanwineproject.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
For this episode I have the pleasure of talking with two of my favorite authors on soil and our utter dependence on it, Anne Biklé and David R. Montgomery
David R. Montgomery is a MacArthur Fellow and professor of geomorphology at the University of Washington. He is an internationally recognized geologist who studies the effects of geological processes on ecological systems and human societies. His work has been featured in documentary films, network and cable news, TV, and radio including NOVA, PBS NewsHour, Fox and Friends, and All Things Considered.
Anne Biklé is a science writer and public speaker focusing on the connections between people, plants, food, health, and the environment. She has been known to coax garden plants into rambunctious growth and nurse them back from the edge of death with her regenerative gardening practices. Her work has appeared in digital and print magazines, newspapers, and radio and her gardening practices have been featured in independent and documentary films.
Anne and David are married and live in Seattle, WA. Their work includes What Your Food Ate: How to Heal Our Land and Reclaim Our Health, and a trilogy of books about soil health, microbiomes, and farming—Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations, The Hidden Half of Nature, and Growing a Revolution.
These books are not only about soil but about agriculture, our food system, human health and survival and the climate… and, perhaps shockingly, they provide ample evidence for a way forward that provides solutions to the problems we face in all of these areas… dare I say they provide hope? And, even more importantly, he says sarcastically, they provide ample evidence for how to farm grapes in a better way to make more delicious wine.
www.Dig2Grow.com
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
This is natural winemaking 101, from a technical, principles-based approach, by Adam Huss, the host of the Organic Wine Podcast and the winemaker for Centralas Wine in Los Angeles, California.
Adam presents a vineyard to bottle, step-by-step how-to that focuses on protecting and expressing the beautiful ecosystems from which the fruit comes. He offers tips and processes to make this job of winemaking understandable from chemical and microbial standpoint, and gives general guidelines that enable winemakers to be creative while crafting clean and delicious wine that is free of microbial spoilage, with as little intervention as possible.
The principles and techniques Adam presents in this episode can help you make wine naturally, with practical tips about how to avoid Volatile Acidity (VA), Mouse Taint, Brettanomyces, and other common natural wine issues. The practical advice he gives can help you get a handle on how to make a delicious and clean wine with minimal to zero additives. He discusses the importance of CO2 and how to manage CO2 naturally to your advantage, the importance of pH and how to manage pH naturally, as well as two of the most important aspects of winemaking that are most often overlooked by natural winemakers.
This is a special episode that Adam recorded while driving in Los Angeles, so please forgive the audio quality and unscripted nature of the tutorial.
For this episode I had the pleasure of talking with Kendra Knapik of Ellison Estate Vineyard, a vineyard of American grapes on Grand Isle in the middle of Lake Champlain Vermont. Kendra and her husband Rob practice animal grazing integrated regenerative viticulture with a flock of sheep and organic practices, and make an array natural wines.
Kendra talks about the joys and challenges of embracing the life of a winegrower while having young children and a full-time job – in her case as a veterinary oncologist. As hard as you can tell she works, you can also hear in her voice that she is fueled by the beauty of what she’s doing. The process is as impressive to me as what she’s building, and one more piece of evidence that Vermont is a hot spot for some really cool winemaking.
https://www.ellisonestatevineyard.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Tom Plocher. Tom has been growing and breeding grapevines and making wine from them since 1980. He was a longtime friend and mentee of Elmer Swenson, and lives and grows grapes in Minnesota just north of the Twin Cities.
Tom has bred several varieties of grapes that are patented and available for sale out in the world… and you’ve heard about at least one of them – Petite Pearl – if you listened to the recent episode with Montpellier Vineyards in Vermont. In this interview Tom gives detailed instructions about how to breed grapevines, with some great tips and an in-depth sense of what is involved.
While Tom isn’t focused on breeding for resistance to mildew or pests, what he’s doing and what he teaches us in this episode may be some of the most valuable information ever shared on this podcast. Because learning to breed grapevines is what will make it possible to adapt to the rapidly changing climate and find a delicious future for wine that doesn’t require the unsustainable use of chemical sprays that make environmental degradation worse. Tom literally shows us the path to the future of wine, and that it’s something you can do with some intelligence, patience, and care on your own, without a lot of land.
Here’s a fun fact: The time it takes to research, develop, test, and get approvals of a new chemical pesticide is about 10 years. The time it takes to breed, grow, prove out and patent a new variety of grapevine that could have any number of beneficial traits – including a diminished need for new pesticides – is about 10 years.
Forget the fact that the development of the pesticide took millions of dollars too, and that breeding the grape just took time and some knowledge and practice. Imagine if all of us who grow vineyards also began collecting, crossing, and breeding new vines. Imagine where we’d be if we’d channeled our resources over the last 80 years into this approach to resilience and vitality in our vineyards, rather than trying to prop up a handful of increasingly more feeble grapevines with the ongoing development of chemicals that degrade our environment and make climate change and human health worse.
Think of how much further along we’d be to having real solutions to viticultural challenges by looking in the vines themselves. It is both possible and 100% achievable to have delicious wine made from grapes that never need to be sprayed with anything and thrive in the extreme climate that will be our future. But not as long as we fetishized and clone the same vines over and over again.
If we take the knowledge that Tom gives us here and apply it to the California wine industry, we could have a continually renewing, regenerating, and improving cycle of increasing health and flavor in our wine and our world, rather than this downward spiral we’re on that has an expiration date.
The only thing standing in our way, I believe, is prejudice. We’ve created a hierarchy in which a few types of grapes, and only those few select grapes, can make great wine. That hierarchy is bullshit. All grapes are hybrids.
I hope you’ll join with me in normalizing the idea that wine is not made from a few European grapes but from an ongoing process of adaptation, innovation, experimentation, and inclusion. If you do, I think the future of wine can be exciting. It can be diverse. It can be delicious.
In this interview, Tom gives us the tools to get there.
https://www.plochervines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Diana Snowden Seysses. Diana studied Viticulture & Enology at UC Davis, and went on to work in both California and French cellars with Robert Mondavi Winery, Mumm Napa, the Araujo Estate, Château La Fleur de Boüard, Domaine Leflaive and Ramey Wine Cellars. And also for the last 20 years, Diana has been an enologist and part of the family at Domaine Dujac in Burgundy, and consultant at Domaine de Triennes in Provence; and she is also winemaker at Snowden Vineyards in Napa.
In addition to this enviable resume of incredible winemaking experience, Diana is one of the leading experts on carbon capture and reuse in the wine industry, and strategies for reducing the massive carbon impact of glass wine bottles. So, while I would have loved to spend this hour asking her about making wine in Burgundy, those questions took a back seat to discussing the urgent story she discovered there.
Because it was Diana’s experience of working with the natural world and tracking data in Burgundy that led her to the inescapable reality of the urgency and severity of climate change and altered the direction of what she is doing with wine.
It should come across rather quickly that Diana is a brilliant mind and bright spirit. So it makes the things that she says about the reality we’re facing all the more forceful, and, frankly, sobering. We talk very openly about the challenges of maintaining mental health and keeping courage in the face of what we know.
When I started this podcast I said I wanted it to bring hope. In a very real way, this interview with Diana is about moving beyond hope that things will get better, and yet finding the strength to continue to do the work that our planet needs us to do anyway. I personally find the inspiration for this strength in the natural world itself, in everyone I get to interview for this podcast, and in every one of you who listens. I’m extremely grateful for you, and please don’t underestimate the influence you can have on each other’s spirits and lives.
I recently came across this quote by Howard Zinn:
"The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory."
I hope you find Diana’s defiance as inspiring as I did.
http://www.dujac.com/en/the-domain
https://www.snowdenvineyards.com/
https://www.portoprotocol.com/
sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guests for this episode are the father and son team Doug and Andrew Becker of Montpelier Vineyards in Montpelier, Vermont. Montpelier Vineyards is currently the only certified organic winery north of the Mason-Dixon line that I’m aware of, though there may be more in the process and soon to be certified.
As a quick clarification, a certified organic winery must have two certifications: one for the vineyard and one for the winery. There are other certified vineyards in New England, but only Montpelier Vineyards has both vineyard and winery certifications.
Doug and Andrew tell us their story, and we get technical about some of the challenges of Vermont viticulture, as well as how to deal with VA and reduction in the winery.
Doug and Andrew may introduce you to some new terminology, because in addition to grape wines they make pyments, cysers, and melomels and discuss the practice of bletting apples.
We also discuss the particular hybrid grapes that they’re growing, and their pros and cons. They are one of the few growers of a new hybrid grape named Petite Pearl, bred by Tom Plocher, that shows a lot of promise, and in fact they sent me a bottle of their Montpelier Vineyards 2021 wild fermented Petite Pearl that we discuss in the interview, and since this was recorded a few weeks ago I’ve had a chance to try it.
The color is the first remarkable aspect of the wine. Inky, opaque purple, tinged magenta at the rim. Extremely dark. After swirling in the glass the legs ooze down almost as dark as the wine itself. It smelled initially of blue fruit, snowy mountain air, grape jelly, and a bit of cocoa powder. It is extremely fresh, still young, while also rich and full bodied. It achieves that deft feat of having significant weight, even gravitas, without an ounce of heaviness. Only 12 and a half percent alcohol. The closest association I can make to something you might have drunk is along the lines of the black wines of Cahors, or something like a varietal Tannat or Teroldego. After a couple days open in the refrigerator it developed more chocolately notes and creamier texture, so while this was a delight to drink now, I think it will age very well and improve for quite a while. I have never done a tasting note like this before, so I hope that speaks for itself. I loved drinking this wine, and I think it shows that the future of wine made from hybrid grapes is extremely bright (and that’s not a climate change joke). So get some if you can.
So let’s take a trip to Vermont, where it seems like wine – in a beautiful diversity of innumerable flavors and forms – is really blowing up.
https://www.montpeliervineyards.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Eric Shatt. With his wife and partner Deva, Eric is the owner of Redbyrd Orchard Cider in the Finger Lakes Region of NY. I love that Deva and Eric put the orchard first in their name and in their philosophy of cider making. In fact, Eric is an apple breeder and preservationist. He grows over 150 varieties of apples in his 4-acre orchard and is cultivating trees propagated from the wild and then crossed with others. He also makes some unique and delicious cider.
Eric tells us how all that diversity in the orchard provides reinforcements against the unpredictable nature of, um, nature, and how it can also provide consistency to the cider. He gives us an intro to grafting, and discusses his unique approach to making cider, as well as his desire to promote freedom of technique and experimentation in the cellar.
Redbyrd has been certified biodynamic for years, but Eric and I discuss how he came to be aware of biodynamics’ troubling origins and the beliefs of Rudolf Steiner. While Eric is drawn to the spiritual connections in farming that biodynamics brings attention to, we discuss why its history has caused he and Deva to question whether it is something they’ll continue to support via certification.
This is a succulent conversation on many levels because of Eric’s thoughtfulness and curiosity about the many unknowns that are part of farming and making wine in our little corner of the cosmos.
https://redbyrdorchardcider.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Brian McClintic. For many people in the wine world, Brian needs no introduction. He’s one of the co-stars of the Somm documentaries where we watch him go from being a young, ambitions lover of wine, to becoming a Master Sommelier, and then his further evolution as global wine expert. Then, perhaps even more significantly, Brian became disillusioned with his membership in the Court of Master Sommeliers, turned in his pin, and resigned from the Court. The development of his perspective on wine continued through the projects and ideas he began exploring through his online wine club Viticole and its associated podcast.
When Brian recently wrote a post on his Viticole blog titled “Reimaging Terroir” – which I highly recommend everyone read – I knew I wanted to get Brian to talk about his new ideas here on the podcast. Brian presents a way to reimagine wine. He discusses how our climate issues are just a symptom of our disconnection from the natural world. He shares a vision where a diversity of wine ingredients leads to biodiversity in agriculture, and makes our obsession with clearing forests and landscapes to plant a monoculture of non-native single variety plants seem absurd. We talk about blind tasting, terroir, and growing polyculture agroforestry that includes grapes with fruit trees and bushes.
If you are ready for a new vision of wine, get ready for a ride of rethinking viticulture to remind us of our dependence on the natural world, reconnect and deepen our bond with nature, and be reminded of who is leading the dance… It’s not us.
https://www.viticolewine.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Drew Herman. Drew is the Vineyard Manager at JK Carriere Wines in Oregon, and, wow… listening to him makes me want to drink anything made from fruit that he helps grow. Before we recorded this, Drew gave me an outline of things that he wanted to talk about, and he titled it Microbial Democracy, and what he discusses here blows open doors of understanding about the way soil and plants work from a fundamental perspective. You will not be able to think about growing vines, or anything else, in the same way after listening to this.
Drew explains how the soil has a voice. He introduces the new findings about microbial quorum sensing and signaling and how the soil is like a big ongoing chemical conversation. We then get into epigenetics and how soil microbes actually impact not only vine health but also wine flavor, and so much more. He gives specific and practical applications for this knowledge, and promotes independent science and freedom from purchased bottled solutions to viticultural problems.
Beware: this episode may make you smarter, freer, and more full of wonder.
A special thanks to James Endicott of Vinocity Selections for introducing me to Drew. I think once you hear what Drew has to share, you’ll want to thank James too.
Enjoy!
Sponsored by:
Centralas Wine
My guest for this episode is the bestselling author of Drinking & Knowing Things, he's a Certified Sommelier with the Guild of Master Sommeliers, a Certified Specialist of Wine, and a Master of Wine Candidate with the Institute of Masters of Wine. His final blind tasting test is this month. He runs the wildly popular Drinking & Knowing Things wine blog which has been adapted into now 3 books. He owns the award-winning SoCal Rum company, which was recently awarded the highest point score in history for any Silver Rum. Michael was a professor at the University of CA, Irvine. And he spends his time blind tasting and doing extreme sports.
And, last but not least, He is the founder of the Bhutan Wine Company, and is leading the development of the wine industry in this magical Himalayan country for its first time in history. This was why I wanted to talk to Michael.
Because his journey led him to Bhutan to plant its first ever vineyards, I found out about and began looking into some of the truly unique and stunning aspects of Bhutan’s culture. That’s part of the power of wine.
If you haven’t heard about the 7 pillars of Gross National Happiness, or didn’t know that Bhutan is the only carbon negative nation in the world, or that it is on the path to be the first 100% organic nation in the world, and more… then you’re going to have as much fun with this interview as I did.
https://www.drinkingandknowingthings.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Tim Graham of Left Bank Cider in Catskill, New York on the bank of the Hudson River. Tim’s cider project is a joint effort with his wife Anna Rosencranz and partner Dave Snyder. The three of them are making local cider from local apples, both wild and cultivated, and serving them at their local bar along with other local ciders, beers, wines and liquors of NY.
It was such a delight to get to know Tim and what he’s doing. He’s thoughtful and smart, ecologically minded in his approach to every aspect of what he does, and he’s curious and deeply appreciative of the beauty of his world. He drops insights and illuminating perspectives throughout.
We go deep on the magic of fungus and its importance to growing and making fermented beverages. Tim takes us on a journey of discovering wild apples and makes an argument for why his local apples are the best apples in the world. And we learn from Tim how to incorporate a process of learning and expanding and growing so that we waste none of the delicious fruits of life.
http://www.leftbankciders.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Host:
Adam Huss
My guest for this episode is Greg La Follette. Just when you think you know something about wine, you meet someone like Greg. Talking with him about wine is like having the sun rise suddenly while you’re walking a path at night with only a flashlight. I apologize in advance to anyone who is trying to listen to this while doing something else, because you’re going to want to take notes.
Even if you haven’t heard of Greg La Follette, you’ve probably drunk wines that he helped make. He mentored at BV in the early 90s under Andre Tchelitstcheff. He has designed and redesigned fourteen wineries worldwide and was the consulting winemaker for the University of California Davis’ “teaching winery”. He has consulted for Kendall-Jackson, starting its La Crema and Hartford Court brands. He launched Flowers, turning it into a cult brand, featuring its gravity-flow “green” production facility that is still considered state of the art. He went on to manage wine operations at DeLoach, and founded Tandem Wines, and has consulted on many other projects too numerous to mention.
If you’ve been following the Organic Wine Podcast at all, it won’t come as a surprise to you that with his legendary reputation as a winemaker, Greg’s gives preeminence to the winemaking that happens in the vineyard before the grapes are even picked. You may have heard the cliché that “great wine is made in the vineyard.” In this episode, Greg tells us how. He discusses the 3 most important moments in winemaking that all happen in the vineyard, and in fact as I re-listened I counted at least 2 or 3 additional moments in the vineyard that he discusses as vitally important to winemaking.
And that’s before he gives a breakdown of microbial ecological succession during indigenous fermentations and how that lends more complexity to wine.
If you listen closely, you’ll find moments throughout what Greg says where he seems to talk about grapevines and people comparatively and even interchangeably. I found something profoundly meaningful in this, as it makes me feel as if Greg has come to know these beings so well that he has achieved a perspective that is not from this modern world, but recalls an ancient perspective from those indigenous groups who also knew their ecosystems with equal intimacy. A perspective of identification and equality with our non-human family. A perspective of compassion and empathy.
Even if you aren’t working with vineyards or making wine, this episode will give you a glimpse of how much there is to learn about wine, how deep scientific knowledge enables us to listen to and serve vines and ecosystems better, and how complex and beautiful our world can be the more we get to know it.
https://www.marchellewines.com/
View or download Greg's "From Soil To Bottle" presentation here.
With special thanks to Lucie Morton.
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
This episode is a bit unusual for this podcast. It’s about how to purchase real estate, and my guest is Rural Mortgage Banker for United Ag Lending, Brady Shepherd. I’m very grateful to Brady for the time he spent with me preparing for this episode, and I think you’ll find this episode packed with potentially life-changing ideas.
Why “life changing?” Because, for better or for worse, the US economy is founded on real estate. The laws and economic structure that guide our society were written by and for land-owners. And behind every glass of wine is a piece of land where it was grown that somebody or some entity owns.
Did you know that to buy real estate you don’t have to put 20% down? You might not have to put any cash down. Your credit doesn’t have to be perfect either. We talk about this and so much more.
A final disclaimer, nothing that I or Brady say on this episode is meant to be investment advice, and please talk to an accountant about your personal situation. Actually, talking to an accountant can be just as eye-opening as talking to a mortgage banker.
A big thanks to Brady, who, if you stay tuned, literally gives out his phone number for anyone who might need help getting a mortgage loan.
https://unitedaglending.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Colin Blackshear and Aaron Brown of Bardos Cider are my guests for this episode. This is their first podcast, and I’m honored to be able to spread the word about what the remarkable work they are doing. They have built Bardos Cider since 2019 to a significant production, of over 150 barrels, by gleaning fruit from abandoned, forgotten, and derelict old orchards from the late 1800s and early 1900s.
These trees have learned to survive only on the winter rains and despite human neglect, and this has made their fruit all the more exciting with age. Working with them has connected Aaron and Colin to the history of this land in some very meaningful and even spiritual ways. They clearly have a humility and respect for the wisdom of these elder beings, and through cider they have begun to realize a larger responsibility they have to protect and preserve these orchards.
So often wine and cider are produced from an egotistical standpoint. I decided I wanted to make a certain kind of wine or cider, so I found or planted vineyards or orchards to meet my specifications and invested my will and desires and resources into bringing my ego-vision to reality. When this is my approach, is the wine or cider that I end up with really a reflection of the terroir, or just my ego? Colin and Aaron of Bardos Cider remind me that there is another approach. I could instead look to work in service of what already is thriving without my ego, despite that it may not be what I thought I wanted or intended. I could work to highlight and preserve the beautiful work that was already being done before me, and that will continue on once I’m gone. Could this lead to a truer reflection of place? And if I applied this approach to my life more broadly, is this the kind of perspective that could lead to abundance?
https://www.bardoscider.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Recorded on, and released in honor of, Caesar Chavez Day.
My guest for this episode is Gabriela Fontanesi. Gabriela has one of the most unusual and unique paths into wine that I’ve ever encountered. Because of that, she brought questions and perspectives that have incredible power to transform the way you see and think about this industry and that led her on a journey of being a vineyard worker, and to Mexico where she recorded this interview, so that she could improve her Spanish and one day conduct wine tastings for Spanish-speaking farm workers here in California.
Some of the points she brings up include: the laws that surprisingly don’t apply to farm workers, and why that is; How our separation from farming is what allows for the exploitation of the people who do the farm work; the euro-centric nature of formal wine education; the troubling idea of objectivity in wine tasting and if it accounts for the treatment of those who grow the wine; and the opportunity that wine has to bring change because of the narratives it tells. And so much more.
Gabriela is a non-stop force of insight and this interview is packed with some of the most important ideas we can grapple with as an industry. If you get nothing else out of it, I hope you’ll be inspired by Gabriela to ask better, harder questions and to keep asking them regardless of where they take you.
Gabriela would like to give a shout out to two great organizations that she supports. The first is AHIVOY which provides mentoring & scholarships for vineyard stewards in Oregon. You can learn more at ahivoyoregon.org or @ahivoyoregon.
And the second organization is The Botanical Bus – a bilingual mobile herb clinic. You can find more at TheBotanicalBus.com or @botanical.bus
Gabriela can be contacted through her Instagram @gpfontanesi
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
It’s time for an end of the imperialistic colonial culture that we’ve all had plenty of by now. It’s time to recognize that there are indigenous grapes that grow best in every location on the lands of this earth, and they don’t need chemistry to survive because they evolved in those lands. And beyond that, great wine doesn’t have to be only about grapes. There are amazing fermented beverages from whatever is locally available in every corner of the globe, even those corners where grapes can’t grow.
In other words, free your palate and your mind will follow.
And you know what, say what you will about Natural Wine… it has freed an entire generation’s palate.
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Jack Sporer is the owner of Fres.co Wine and Magnolia Wine Services.
This interview is a great episode for a beginning winemaker thinking of starting their own brand and considering how to make that dream a reality. Because Jack is the owner of a custom crush winery facility. Unless you are independently wealthy or inherited a vineyard, you are likely going to start your winery in some sort of a co-op or shared winery space, and since that’s how I make our wine for my brand Centralas (whose wines, btw, are available for sale at CentralasWine.com the purchase of which supports this wonderful podcast) and since Jack owns one of these facilities, we dig into the pros and cons, the whys and the hows, and the hard questions you need to ask before choosing a facility. No, you don’t want to start making a wine at the nearest crush pad, unless it also stands up to some thorough evaluation.
Jack’s custom crush facility in Sonoma is also the home of his winery Fres.co, which he named Fresh Wine Company in an attempt to cause us to think about wine the way we think about produce, as a product that is grown.
Jack is deeply involved in regenerative agriculture, through both Fres.com and Magnolia, and he makes an incredibly important point about it. Basically, true regenerative agriculture implies working with degraded or poorly managed land, NOT pristine organically farmed vineyards. And that means that regenerative agriculture is about building bridges between farmers & winemakers with different and even opposing philosophies.
I love that Jake embodies true regenerative agriculture with both Fres.co and Magnolia, and I think he does that with very smart, empathetic, and trust-building interactions that set an amazing example that we can all learn from.
https://fresh.wine/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Darek Trowbridge. Darek is the mind and body behind Old World Winery. He refers to himself as a soil farmer rather than a grape farmer, and this earth-first approach had led him to coin the term “Pastoral Winemaker” … because Darek has been making Natural Wine since before anyone called it natural wine.
That’s right, Darek is a pioneer in the natural wine movement, and a true OG who started his winery in the 90’s and was farming vineyards before that. He has a wealth of information to share from well over 25 years of regenerating vineyard ecosystems and shepherding wine.
We talk about exactly how he does this, bringing vineyards planted in the 1800’s back to vibrant vitality by building soil carbon. We talk about how he uses sesame oil as his only fungicide, his farming of the only Abouriou vineyard in the New World, and how he is helping Sonoma County reduce wildfire risk while regenerating soil health with proprietary woodchip compost through his Soil Carbon Management Company.
Darek is someone who has ignored the trends and just continued to make farming-first wine for decades. And because of that he probably hasn’t gotten the attention he deserves. So I’m thrilled to be able to share the beautiful work he’s been doing.
https://www.oldworldwinery.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Hidalgo, Wetumka, Norton, Cloeta. If you haven’t heard these names before, they are American heritage or American native wine grape varieties. And they are just a few of the dozens of native grape varieties being grown at TerraVox or Vox Vineyards, just outside of Kansas City, Missouri.
Missouri is the site of America’s first and oldest AVA, by the way, so it has a long and fascinating wine history, which we get into in this interview.
In the current American wine industry, built as it is on imported European varieties, these American native varieties haven’t had much of a voice. But Jerry Eisterhold and Jean-Louis Horvilleur are helping to change that. Jerry is the founder and proprietor of TerraVox, and Jean is the winemaker and vineyard manager. TerraVox means Voice of the Land.
TerraVox is a living museum of the diversity of American native wine grapes. But more than that, it is an example of viticulture as a dynamic process. And while this interview is chock-full of amazing insights and information, these are the two points that I hope you’ll hear most clearly:
That fostering, preserving, and celebrating diversity is the key to creativity, innovation, and resilience, and that the best viticulture is a dynamic process, built on the ability to continually adapt and incorporate diversity.
Celebrating diversity and process-centered rather than varietal-centered viticulture are the keys to eliminating short-sighted decision making and to building adaptability and resilience into the American wine industry.
I want to thank Jerry and Jean for giving us a great example of how this can be done through TerraVox.
https://www.voxvineyards.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Ian Thorsen-McCarthy is my guest for this episode, and he has made wine on both coasts… first in California and now in New York.
His project is Artemis Botanical, and you can probably tell from the name that he doesn’t just make wine. Vermouth and now cider are part of his repertoire, and he is equally thoughtful about them all. Ian is deeply rooted in natural winemaking. So much so that if you tested him on how to add sulfur to wine, he might fail.
In this conversation we talk about why he decided to move his winemaking to New York, why he decided to work with grapes that were not organically grown for the first time and the importance of this to actually making a difference with his winemaking.
Ian asked me some great questions too, and this conversation ranged into new territory that I think is very helpful in grappling with some complex issues. I’m really grateful Ian was willing to explore these things with me, and I can’t wait to see what this new chapter of his wine life will bring.
https://www.artemisbotanical.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
“The blood of the land” is how Jason Kesselring refers to wine. Jason grows grapes and makes wine in a place that sounds like it’s from Game of Thrones, where winter temperatures drop below 30 degrees … below zero, and summer temps can get over 100, where wind blows viciously year round, and tornados are common in the summer, and where last year at the end of May the temperature dropped to minus 23 degrees.
Welcome to North Dakota, one of the most extreme climates in the Americas.
Kesselring Vineyards is America’s only vitis riparia vineyard, and it’s been around for over a decade. Jason started the vineyard by observing and tagging wild vines, taking cuttings in the winter, and propagating them a few feet away in his vineyard, then created additional blocks via massale selection.
When I say propagate, I mean he literally just stuck the cuttings in the ground. And Jason says he actually had to spray them, once, in the last fifteen years, because of a crown gall issue.
What Jason is doing is revolutionary, but at the same time it’s the most natural thing that humans have been doing for thousands of years. The question it begs is, Why isn’t this the basis of American viticulture and wine? As you hear Jason’s incredible story, in his understated way that seems characteristic of this place in the world, that question becomes more and more poignant.
As I talked to Jason I became overwhelmed, not by what he was doing, but by how surreal and absurd the imported, Eurocentric wine world is that I generally inhabit and that dominates the wine industry. I cannot thank Jason enough for bringing somewhat of an outsider’s perspective to hold up a mirror to my way of thinking, and for introducing me to a new world of extreme beauty.
@kesselringvineyards
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
And:
The Ecological Wine Score
It was such a pleasure to geek out with Martha Stoumen about making wine for this epidsode. This conversation gets highly technical, and even more highly helpful for anyone, at any level, who is making wine or thinking about it. If you want to take your wine making to the next level, listen closely. I have learned multiple new things from Martha every time I’ve re-listened.
The ostensible subject of this episode is How to make Natural Wine, but of course there isn’t one way to make natural wine. Instead, Martha offers the principles and perspectives and biology and chemistry that can help you approach wine making holistically, with the goal of helping this living being – the grapevine – achieve what seems to be its ultimate destiny. And we do a case study of one of her wines, to give an intimate and detailed view of the practical application of her approach.
The one impression that I hope you’ll get, if nothing else, is just how thoughtful Martha is about every aspect of this process. She thinks carefully about everything from the macro to the micro, and asks great questions about how to use human efforts to facilitate all of the non-human elements that work for us to create, and refine, and protect a beautiful wine. We could not have asked for a better teacher.
Martha makes wine in Sebastapol, California and you can buy her wines at marthastoumen.com. And I highly recommend you do try them. We talk about how well adapted Italian varieties of grapes are to making natural wine in California, and she has several examples that show just how deliciously true that is.
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
Stephen Hagen and Andrew Smith are my guests on this episode, and we’re talking about Antiquum Farm in Oregon. Antiquum is Stephen’s family farm where Andrew runs the cellar, and where they practice Grazing-Based Viticulture, or what Stephen calls Joy Based Agriculture, and I believe he’s doing for grape farming what Joel Salatin has done for regular farming. Antiquum is a vineyard ecosystem specifically designed to enable nearly year-round high-intensity managed grazing of kune kune pigs, sheep, geese, chickens and ducks in the vineyard, though not necessarily in that order. Stephen describes in detail the infrastructure, practical considerations, animal breeds, resources, and much much more that is necessary to make this system work and to make it possible to produce wine that is 100% true to place.
This is a must-listen for anyone considering maintaining a year-round herd and incorporating them in the vineyard, or for anyone who just wants to hear an example of some incredible, earth-first agriculture and how that impacts the wine that comes from it.
This ecosystem requires zero outside inputs for fertility. This closed loop holistic farm continually increases the distinctiveness and richness of the soil microbiome which has had dramatic effects on the grapes’ morphology, chemistry, and flavor. If you really believe in terroir, Stephen and Andrew have taken this concept to such an extreme that I think it redefines terroir. This is such a compelling perspective that I think it challenges a majority of the claims to terroir in the wine world.
If you want to be inspired by what could be possible for the future of wine, or if you want to save 15 years of trial and error in grazing-based viticulture, prepare for a 20 terabit download. And don’t be surprised if you start hearing the name Antiquum – however you pronounce it – a lot more often.
https://www.antiquumfarm.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Christopher Renfro of The Two Eighty Project. If you haven’t had the pleasure to learn about what he’s doing with wine in San Francisco, you’re in for a treat.
Christopher spent much of his childhood in Germany, which allows him a bit of an outsider’s perspective on the culture of the United States that is refreshing and extremely relevant. He has a big vision for the kinds of things he wants to accomplish. We jump right in to discuss the foundational characteristics of the culture of the United States in relation to his story, his work to create what I refer to as a counter-culture of compassion through wine, and his thoughts on our many deep connections to the land and disconnections from it.
But as big as these ideas are, I really appreciated how Christopher is grounded in appreciation for the magic of being alive, breathing air and eating food that we can grow from the earth. I love the inclusiveness of his vision and his desire to celebrate and embrace the many diverse people and cultures that make up our world. This excitement for the contribution that each different being can contribute to our live is what I think is the soul of biodiversity, and a key to the shift of perspective needed to heal our culture… and our climate.
@thetwoeightyproject
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
In this special episode I’m going to clear up a far to common misunderstanding about how much it costs to get certified organic or biodynamic (Spoiler alert: it doesn't cost a lot to get certified.) But I’ll also raise some of the complicated but important questions about whether it’s worth getting certified.
I give an in-depth look at the actual fees and costs of the three year transition period for becoming certified Organic and Biodynamic, using a 20 acre vineyard as an example, as well as the on-going annual costs of being certified.
Also, I explain the complicated way that certification applies to what you can and can't say on your wine's label, and why there are actually two certifications required to be able to state "Made With Organic Grapes" or "Organic Wine" or "Biodynamic Wine" on your wine labels.
A special thanks to Gina of Lady of the Sunshine for providing some great data from her own Biodynamic certification process, which was a big help in my research for this piece.
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Martin Bernal-Hafner. Martin is doing some beautiful and hard work in Mendocino County for Alta-Orsa on a vineyard that is as difficult to farm as it is magical.
Martin may be the perfect guy for such a difficult job. He’s humble and unassuming, thorough and careful, with kindness and patience to boot. And maybe that’s why you haven’t heard of him or Alta Orsa, but that, and the kind of farming he’s doing despite herculean challenges, are exactly why I wanted to talk to him for the podcast.
But even more than that, the Alta Orsa estate vineyard is something special. Halfway up a mountain at the end of what looks and drives like a dirt fire service road you come upon what could be an old Italian wine villa if it was set in Middle Earth. When the gate opens and you pass through the weathered stone entry, it’s like going through a faery door into another realm. Vineyard rows that have never been tilled in 30 years twist and turn over the steep contours of the mountainside, so closely planted that they must be tended entirely by hand… and the wine that flows from them is dusky, rich, and complex.
https://www.orsawines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
By looking at wine from a different perspective, I think we can gain a greater appreciation and understanding of it, and also get some inspiration about how we could think completely differently about it, and how that might make it something less exclusive, more sustainable, and more fun.
My guest for this episode is Sandor Katz. Sandor is the author of the books Wild Fermentation as well as The Art of Fermentation – which could be considered the fermentation Bible, and for which he received a James Beard Award – and his most recent book is Fermentation Journeys.
The information Sandor gives in this episode could change not only the way you think, but also the way you eat and drink. I’ve actually been inspired to incorporate new ideas and ingredients into my winemaking and food-making because of this conversation.
Sandor explains how the context of human life, and all life, is biodiversity. The human body is host to over a trillion bacteria, and countless other microorganisms. Rather than eliminate this microbiome, we need this community to be robust to maintain our health. Fermentation, in the context of a global pandemic, is a profound shift in thinking – away from sterility and toward diversity and resilience.
And fermentation is a natural result of the abundance of life. Fermentation explodes categories and defies labels. It prevents waste and reuses byproducts.
Sandor’s mission is to revive our connection to these ancient processes, and after this conversation I hope you feel as reconnected as I did.
https://www.wildfermentation.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Olivia Maki and Mike Reis are my guests on this episode, and they are the owners of Redfield Cider Bar in Oakland, California! Redfield is one of just a handful of bars anywhere dedicated to Cider, as well as natural wine, and Olivia and Mike give us an in-depth exploration of what it takes to open and run such a bar… during a pandemic, no less.
If you’ve ever dreamed of opening your own bar, this episode will give you the nitty gritty of what goes into it… and you may want to change your dream. Or you may get the vital info you need to make your dream a reality. And even if you don’t want to open a bar, Olivia and Mike will give you a vital perspective on what goes into you being able to casually sit down and enjoy a glass of wine or cider at your local wine bar. You may end up enjoying that glass a whole lot more.
https://www.redfieldcider.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Ellen Cavalli is the co-apple grower, gleaner, forager, cidermaker and owner of Tilted Shed Cider Works, in Sonoma, California. She has a past career in publishing and continues to have a hand in the zine called Malus. I just discovered Malus thanks to Ellen, and I love it and highly recommend checking it out.
At only 10 years in business, Tilted Shed has achieved serious notoriety in the west coast new wave of cider, and this conversation with Ellen is about to show you why.
Ellen is as entertaining as she is insightful, and the laughs and pearls of wisdom continue in rapid fire throughout this entirely uncensored and unedited conversation.
https://www.tiltedshed.com/
https://www.maluszine.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Mimi Casteel started her journey by going to the forest. She found she could not save the forest from within, so she went to the farm. But she found she could not save the farm from within either, so she has recently taken the next step in her journey, and that was why I wanted to have this conversation with her… to ask her what that next step is, and why she’s taking it.
But more than offering just the answers to these questions, Mimi offers us an urgent call to make big changes. She offers us hope in the resilience of the natural world. And she describes the vital need that we all have of getting and giving support to each other.
We skip introductions in this interview, so if you don’t know who Mimi Casteel is, I urge you to search out her other interviews and talks. Mimi is my first repeat guest, so you can also find another great interview with her in the Organic Wine Podcast episode library.
The context of this conversation is wine, of course. But wine has led us to ask some really big questions, questions about the sanity of our current economic model, questions about the sustainability of our global food system, questions about survival.
Mimi’s perspectives are at once radical and compassionate. Revolutionary and life-affirming. You are in for a treat.
Todd Cavallo is the vingneron, with his partner Crystal Cornish, of Wild Arc Farm in the Hudson Valley of New York.
This is a dense, practical and at times technical interview about being a thoughtful ecological producer of natural wine in the Northeast US. I I was taking notes.
Among so many other helpful nuggets in this interview, you’re going to get some amazing tips about how to produce a natural piquette from the guy who started the piquette revolution.
I love that this conversation started with bees, chickens, deer, eagles, beetles, grubs, composted chicken manure, and gardens. Once we begin to understand that the best wine grows from a diverse and vibrant ecosystem, the more we see that these seemingly tertiary topics are actually central to understanding and producing wine.
I love that Todd and Crystal are thinking about NOT planting more grapes, but rather helping established grape producers switch to organic practices.
I love that Todd is extremely thoughtful not just about what kind of sprays hes using in his vineyards, but who produces them, how often they must be applied and what that means for his carbon footprint, and how to spray more effectively.
I love Todd’s emphasis on using local ingredients, including promoting the use of local materials for fermentation vessels… which involved a discussion about the American Chestnut, which, if you don’t know about, will be a great intro to what has been called the greatest ecological disaster in history.
Wild Arc Farms was recently selected to produce a wine for Patagonia's new line of natural wines.
https://www.wildarcfarm.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Gary Paul Nabhan is an Agricultural Ecologist, Ethnobotanist, Ecumenical Franciscan Brother, and author of over 30 books. His work has focused primarily on the interaction of biodiversity and cultural diversity of the arid binational Southwest. He is considered a pioneer in the local food movement and the heirloom seed saving movement.
A first-generation Lebanese American, Nabhan was raised in Gary, Indiana. He worked at the headquarters for the first Earth Day in Washington DC
Gary has achieved several degrees, including a Ph.D. in the interdisciplinary arid lands resource sciences also at the University of Arizona, and he has received numerous awards including a Macarthur Fellowship.
He co-founded Native Seeds/SEARCH a non-profit conservation organization which works to preserve place-based Southwestern agricultural plants as well as knowledge of their uses, and he did the research to help Secretary Bruce Babbitt create Ironwood Forest National Monument.
He now serves as the Kellogg Endowed Chair in Southwestern Borderlands Food and Water Security. At the University of Arizona, where he founded the Center for Regional Food Studies and catalyzed the initiative to have UNESCO designate Tucson as the first City of Gastronomy in the U.S.
Despite all this, I only came to hear about Gary when Ricky Taylor of Alta Marfa forwarded me an article about Gary’s intra-institutional work to catalog and preserve the rich diversity of Mexico’s traditional fermented beverages. Maybe this shows my need to broaden my scope, or maybe it shows the power of these fermented beverages to capture attention… I’ll let you decide. Regardless, I’m so grateful to have discovered the wealth of wisdom and knowledge that is Gary Paul Nabhan, and I’m thrilled to be able to share him with you.
https://www.garynabhan.com/
Colonche, Tepache, Tesguino, Pulque, Mesquite, Mescal
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Quinn Hobbs, the founder and owner of Hollow Wines, is my guest for this episode. Quinn is based here in the Los Angeles area, but makes wine in the Central Coast. I don’t think it’s inaccurate to call Quinn a maverick. He wants to build Hollow Wines to be the Gallo of sustainable, environmentally positive wine, and shake up the wine industry. Hes going big, and thinking big.
Quinn takes a holistic perspective on what it means to farm responsibly, wants to make it more acceptable to buy wine in cans to reduce wine’s carbon footprint, and he’s followed the lead of his own health to embrace natural, minimal intervention winemaking.
In addition to being a disrupter of the wine world with big plans, he’s a father, he’s studying for a phd, and He’s never more than a short drive from the ocean so that he can get some surfing in with all his free time. That’s a joke. Quinn has no free time. But he does love to surf. Enjoy!
https://hollowwines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
It’s a pleasure to introduce you to Rob Durham of Durham Cider and Wine Company in this episode. Rob is rocking the California Central Coast Cider scene, but also makes cider that represents the entire west coast of the US. Rob’s journey to start Durham Cider and Wine didn’t follow a straight path, so this conversation rambles around a bit uncovering fascinating and really admirable insights into his knowledge and experience at every turn.
Rob has crossed North America on a bike, owned an edible landscaping company, worked on an organic potato farm in Idaho, gotten fired from his first brewery job, and now makes close to 20 ciders and wines each year (though he hope to make less varieties), with names like Everything Is Mood and Space Parade. I hope that, like me, this conversation will cause you to want to get to know him and his ciders better. Enjoy!
https://www.durhamciderandwine.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
As we continually strive to move our winery, Centralas, in the direction of becoming a more ecologically thoughtful and environmentally beneficial winery, I became convinced that prickly pears need to be an important part of what we do and what we promote as Los Angeles based winery.
Prickly pears are native to Los Angeles and other parts of the South West, and have been tended and used here for thousands of years. The entire cactus is useful and edible. I foraged and picked them this year from natural areas all around LA, including some within walking distance of my home in South LA. Prickly pears thrive in marginal land without irrigation or chemical inputs of any kind. These are the kinds of fruits that we can build an environmentally positive and ecologically integrated local beverage culture on. A culture that isn’t imported, but that represents the unique local flavor of this land.
As you can tell, I couldn’t be more excited about the potential of incorporating prickly pears into wine.
Austin Glasscock, our guest for this episode, shares my enthusiasm. He’s making wine from prickly pears, and other wild fruit, in Sonora, Texas with his brand new winery called Wild Texas Wines. Austin is a marine who got into winemaking as a hobby after his military service, and found not only a love of fermentation, but a great excuse to get out into the natural world.
I was delighted to hear Austin talk about how he gathers fruit by hand, without equipment, with some serious risk, so as to move through the landscape as an animal would and leave a light footprint. I was inspired by his vision of staying small – wanting only to make a living and maintain a lifestyle that allows him to interact with nature daily.
The most amazing part is how much the wines Austin makes embodies his love of nature in every aspect of his process. The contrast to how we tend to make wines here in California is stark, and makes me thrilled to be able to share this unassuming and understated winemaker’s perspective.
We get into some pretty detailed technical specifics about making wine from prickly pears, which I hope will be part of a growing body of shared knowledge that others can learn from and add too. I hope that Austin and I and a few others are just the early adopters of what will become a much more popular kind of thinking about making wine ecologically from locally available wild fruit here in the South West where the summers are long, the sun is hot, and the water is more precious than gold.
In truth we aren’t early adopters at all. We’re the rediscoverers and revivers of a very old tradition.
https://www.wildtexaswines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
On this episode we get a comprehensive step-by-step how to make sparkling cider from Autumn Stoscheck and Ezra Sherman of Eve’s Cidery. This is Cider Making 101, from the folks who have achieved OG status in the New York cider world because they’ve been at this for over 20 years and have mentored and collaborated with many of the folks who now have successful cideries of their own.
I don’t want to over-hype them, but learning cider making from Autumn and Ezra is the equivalent of learning winemaking from Paul Draper, or Bernard Noblet, or Lalou Bize-Leroy. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that Autumn and Ezra make some of the best ciders in the world. They are farmers and foragers who turn nature’s bounty into some of the most true-to-place and also refined ciders you can drink. From sparkling ciders made from pears foraged from the Fingerlakes National Forest, to site-specific apple ciders from their own certified organic single orchard, Eve’s Cidery produces uniquely high quality ciders that are some of the best I’ve personally ever had, and that have at times moved me to my core and haunted my dreams.
Okay maybe I do want to over-hype them.
Because I think the quality that is exhibited in their ciders comes from their deeply thoughtful approach to farming and living in the land. In addition to teaching us how to make cider, some of the highlights of this episode are learning about Autumn’s conversion to organic farming, how foraging can reconnect us to the land, our community, and our dependence on nature, as well as inform the potential for reparations to those who were removed from the land. And we even get a glimpse of how to move into the future of growing fruit organically, even on the east coast where the fungal and pest pressures are extreme and complex.
https://www.evescidery.com/
Bibliography:
The Finger Lakes Region: It's Origin and Nature by O. D. Von Engeln - Cornell University Press 1961
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Thanks:
Smithsonian Folkways Recordings
Steve Selin is the proprietor of South Hill Cidery in Ithaca New York, where he farms apples organically and makes beautiful cider and music.
Wendy and I stumbled upon South Hill Cider on a recent visit to the Fingerlakes region, and I was just so impressed by the quality of the ciders that I returned to get a chance to chat with the person who was responsible. After a brief 5 minute conversation with Steve, I knew I wanted to interview him, and I think you’ll see why.
As I was getting to know Steve via this interview, I was delightfully surprised by the many unexpected and fascinating turns that this conversation took. It’s always a strange and special experience to find that someone far away living a different life is thinking about many of the same ideas that you’re contemplating.
One of the topics we cover is how “local” is as important as “organic” when looking at the big picture of our ecological footprint.
Yes, this presents some immediate compromises to my values, but I think it is the long term way to have the greatest positive impact. At this point in American history I think one of the most important things we can do is cultivate friendships with people with whom we disagree.
https://www.southhillcider.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
How does the way we grow and make and drink wine fit into a historical and ecological perspective? What is the importance of organic or biodynamic or regenerative ways of farming grapes? How are we related to grapes, and what does that mean for our relationship with all of nature? Is the climate crisis really a cultural crisis? And what are the solutions to the cultural climate crisis that now threatens both our wines and our lives?
These and many other questions are addressed in this special anniversary episode in which host and creator Adam Huss gives a retrospective and introspective review of the things we learned in the last year on the Organic Wine Podcast.
Books referenced include:
The Unsettling of America, by Wendell Berry
The Overstory, by Richard Powers
The Half Has Never Been Told, by Edward E. Baptist
Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations, by David Montgomery
Tending The Wild, by M. Kat Anderson
Braiding Sweetgrass, by Robin Wall Kimmerer
Sponsor:
Centralas Wine
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Garret Miller is one of the people responsible for Finger Lakes Cider House just a few minutes outside of Ithaca, New York. Nestled in the narrow strip of land between the two largest finger lakes, Finger Lakes Cider House is at the epicenter of the new cider renaissance in the North East US. Garret’s farm is using regenerative organic polyculture to produce organic fruit and veggies, and making some of the tastiest ciders and local farm to table food you can find.
I’ve wanted to talk to Garret for a while. Not just because of the beautiful farming he’s doing, but because Finger Lakes Cider House is responsible for blowing my mind. I stumbled on them on a visit to the Finger Lakes to taste wine. All I can say is that after trying their ciders I forgot all about fermented grapes and began seeking out the elixir that is possible when apples and pears are given the quality of attention they deserve. It was some of Garret’s work that convinced me that Cider, good cider, is America’s champagne.
Garret dropped out of high school to start farming, and he’s been learning ever since. We leave dogma behind in this interview and really dig into some of the nuances and compromises and complications that are a reality in the world of agriculture. I’m very grateful to Garret for his candid answers to some difficult questions.
If there’s a theme to this episode, I’d sum it up as “We have a lot to learn from farmers.” We talk a lot about the understanding gap between those who are doing the farming and those who are consuming farm products… that is, everyone who isn’t a farmer.
http://www.fingerlakesciderhouse.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Deanna and Alfie Alcantara don’t like to see wasted potential. And they see lots of potential in the wealth of America’s endemic grape species. Not only potential for new vines that are adapted for the climate in which they’re grown, don’t need to be sprayed with chemicals, and make wines that truly reflect their land, but also potential for engaging and involving all kinds of people, especially those who might feel excluded or marginalized by the dominant Euro-centered wine culture.
So Deanna & Alfie have started a project to revive, refine and re-define the native grape and wine cultures of America. They found a piece of property in the Catskill Mountains of New York, and they’ve begun planting vines from grape species that contain native DNA – some new varieties that aren’t even named yet, and others with names like Black Eagle and America, and still others that they found growing wild on their property.
They are at the beginning of a project that can take many, many years to begin to see the impact of their efforts. I think there’s something brave and hopeful about starting something that can take longer than the years you’ve been given on this earth. And I think these are the kinds of projects we need desperately now, so I hope Deanna & Alfie will inspire us to think about what is important enough for us to give our lives to even if we know we won’t see the results.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, their name for this project is “Dear Native Grapes.” Maybe that’s where they get their inspiration. Because what they’ve started is something much more meaningful than a business plan. They’ve started writing a love letter.
@dear.native.grapes
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Chiara Rose Shannon is a California-based advanced sommelier, certified yoga instructor and mindfulness practitioner, and she’s also known as The Yogi Sommelier. Her unique approach to Mindful Wine™ tasting and combining the principles and practice of yoga with wine have been featured in The Wall Street Journal.
Chiara believes in wine as part of a healthy, balanced and meaningful lifestyle. Her wellness-informed approach to wine education integrates principles of yoga, mindfulness and traditional sommelier training on top of a deep, working knowledge informed by many years in the industry. An advocate for environmental sustainability, Chiara has niche expertise in organic, Biodynamic and natural wines and sourcing sustainable alternatives within the three-tier system.
What is the connection between yoga and wine, you may ask? Well, the word ‘connection’ is actually the key to answering that question. As we talk, I think you’ll find that the way Chiara approaches this question provides a perspective that is much broader and deeper than either yoga or wine.
https://www.theyogisommelier.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Zaitouna Kusto is the Managing Sommelier at Esters wine shop in Santa Monica, CA.
Zaitouna exemplifies what I think are some of the best qualities in wine sales – someone who listens carefully and doesn’t impose their own preferences and judgements on what others want.
This has led Zaitouna to have some unique and interesting perspectives and observations on wine, and I think this conversation will give everyone something to think about, react against, and be both challenged and entertained by.
I always enjoy talking with Zaitouna, which should also be apparent from this interview, and I hope you’ll be as charmed and delighted as I clearly was.
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
I'm delighted to share this conversation with two of the most lovely winemakers and winery owners in California. Based in the Central Coast, Gina & Mikey Giugni are the owners of Lady of the Sunshine and Scar of the Sea - two wineries that share the same winegrowing philosophies and the same space, but which reflect their two different personalities and winemaking choices.
The Giugnis are committed to growing grapes organically or better, and have certified the Chene Vineyard, which they lease and farm for Lady of the Sunshine, as biodynamic. They see the best viticulture as integrating vineyards into the natural landscape, and they approach wine from a minimal intervention, natural style, that sees wine as a living thing with annual variations that reflect the land it came from.
This interview covers a lot of ground, including:
-
The challenges of farming a small vineyard
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Mikey's homestead cider making in the central coast including cider co-ferments with mondeuse, and another with gruner veltliner & lime leaves
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Why lees are your friend in natural winemaking
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Why new oak can sometimes be necessary in natural winemaking
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Why farming your own grapes changes the way you think about winemaking
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What a healthy vineyard should look like
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The importance of biodynamic and organic certification
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Wine packaging & ingredients labeling
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How to handle problem wines using the limited tools of natural winemaking
...and so much more. Enjoy!
https://www.ladyofthesunshinewines.com/
https://www.scaroftheseawines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Allow me to introduce you to Supergay Spirits!
This episode features Tom Jackson, one of the co-founders of Supergay. We have a fun conversation about the premium vodka made from organic corn that is Supergay’s first spirit, and the dedication to excellence that is masked by their playful branding.
Supergay is a great example that we don’t have to take ourselves too seriously to cause seriously good changes in the world. It’s a pleasure to highlight people that are having fun doing something they enjoy that is also positive and uplifting.
Tom lifted my spirits, and I wasn’t even drinking his vodka. His brand seems like just the thing we need as we head into this post-pandemic summer of 2021. We’ve grown, we’ve changed, we’re maybe a little wiser, maybe a little more awake. But there is hope. We need to smile. We need to spread some joy. We need a little Supergay!
https://www.supergayspirits.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Our guest for this episode is Elizabeth Whitlow – Executive Director of the Regenerative Organic Alliance. The Regenerative Organic Alliance is the non-profit that administers Regenerative Organic Certification. And if you haven’t heard of Regenerative Organic Certification, then it’s my great pleasure to introduce you to what I hope will become the new global standard for viticulture and agriculture.
Elizabeth walks us through how ROC – Regenerative Organic Certification – was created to address some of the lacks for the current national Organic certification, by creating standards for soil health, animal welfare, and social equity.
It’s that last part that we focus on in this interview. Labor and worker treatment specifically. ROC combines standards from Fair Trade certifications and other respectful labor practices, to build one of its three pillars on one of the most overlooked aspects of wine – the people who grow it.
It goes without saying that the first step in treating vineyard workers well is to not have them work in an environment polluted with poisonous pesticides and herbicides, but the need for honoring these workers goes far beyond this. And the issues around agricultural labor are extremely complicated and global. Elizabeth digs into some of these and presents the solutions that the Regenerative Organic Certification is aiming to achieve.
But at the end of the day, our attitudes and choices as consumers may have the most power of all. Each one of us has incredible power to change the way our food and wine is grown. We vote for the way we want our fellow humans – the farm workers - to be treated multiple times per day – with every bite of food or sip of wine we take. If we feel entitled to cheap wine and food, well… we may get it. But someone is paying for it.
Farming is hard and risky work. With climate change it’s getting harder and riskier. And it creates not only our personal health and well being, but the health and well being of the entire global ecosystem. Maybe it’s time we start considering what that is actually worth.
https://regenorganic.org/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Every once in a while, if we’re paying attention, the stars align and we find ourselves presented with an opportunity to use all of our being – our passions and skills and entire life experience – to build something beautiful that transcends the limitations of our finite personality.
My guest for this episode is Andrew Beckham of Beckham Estate Vineyard in Oregon. Andrew makes his wine in amphora. That in itself isn’t unique these days, but what is unique is that Andrew makes the amphorae – which he calls Novum – and he is the only commercial amphora maker in North America. Chances are, if you’re making wine in amphorae in the US, Andrew made them.
Yes, this episode is deeply helpful for anyone considering making any alcoholic beverage in amphora, or just wondering why anyone would use amphorae. But it’s also the story of a guy who found himself using all of his being to create a piece of culture that will live for generations.
https://www.beckhamestatevineyard.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Wendy and I recently took a trip to look at a vineyard in the town of Hemet, California, and the phone call that you’re about to hear is the result of that adventure.
What we discovered on this trip was a biodynamic oasis with as much history and lore as you could hope to find anywhere. The historic property had been known for years as the Haunted Hilltop Manor and was one of the most famously supposedly haunted mansions in southern California. But when I stepped out of the car after the 2 hour drive from LA, what we found was anything but scary.
A pair of hawks cried out overhead, playing in the breeze. The snow capped San Jacinto mountains loomed large to the east, and a terraced landscape of organically and biodynamically farmed vines followed the contours of the earth away to the west.
And then we met Bill Shinkle. Bill might be on the short list of candidates for the Most Interesting Man In the World. He’s also a born storyteller, and he has some entertaining stories to tell.
When he led us into his house, it was like stepping back in time. I don’t want to spoil the conversation, so I won’t say any more. But I think you too will soon want to visit Bill and try his wines, if you live anywhere nearby.
So grab a glass and let me introduce you to Bill Shinkle of Tranquil Heart Vineyards & Winery.
https://tranquilheartvineyard.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
I’ve had some really interesting conversations with wine shop managers and owners who interface with the natural wine drinking public. And some common and troubling themes have emerged. So this episode is an attempt to address the alarming trends I’ve become aware of in natural wine… and if you hang in there you’ll hopefully see that it actually fits with the overall theme of the Organic Wine Podcast.
The fad of natural wine has some serious problems. Here are the top 4.
Anna and David Delaski are my guests for this episode, and they are the owners of Solminer in Los Olivos, California.
These guys are doing SO MUCH COOL STUFF, we barely covered half of it in this interview. Anna and David are making natural wines with Austrian grapes in Santa Barbara county, and they’re doing it with amazing farming that is certified biodynamic and organic and will soon be Regenerative Organic Certified. They are growing the first biodynamic & organic certified Sankt Laurent in the US.
I love Anna’s insight into terroir and growing Austrian grapes in California that comes from being a person who was also originally from Austria and is now a Californian. And I love that these guys are very conscious about giving back and using their business to promote diversity and equity in the wine industry by partnering with and supporting great organizations like Natural Action and 1% for the planet.
https://www.solminer.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
On this episode of the Organic Wine Podcast we take a journey to far north New Hampshire to talk to Michael Phillips.
Michael Phillips is a farmer – or a cultivator of fungal ecosystems, as he might put it - and he’s the author of the books The Apple Grower, The Holistic Orchard, and most recently, Mycorrhizal Planet. If you’re an orchardist or vineyardist all three books are must reads. But Mycorrhizal Planet is a must read even if you’re just a human with no interest in growing apples or grapes.
On the surface, Mycorrhizal Planet is about Regenerative practices for the farm, garden, orchard, forest, and landscape, but as you listen to Michael describe the principles it covers you begin to see that it is a cornerstone in the literal foundation of our future.
Michael is laying out some of the groundwork – pun intended – of that regenerative renaissance. He promotes “outrageous diversity” and “collaboration” as some of the ways that we can “do fungal things.” When we begin to apply the principles he promotes to the world, we stop planting vineyards and orchards and we start launching deeply interconnected ecosystems.
This really is a magical journey. You can’t take a fungal trip without a little magic. But it’s also extremely practical. Michael describes his vision for a connected landscape by explaining the science and the steps we can take to help cultivate it.
The end result is, of course, a healthier orchard or vineyard and more delicious bottle of cider or wine. But is that really the end of the process, or the tantalizing lure that the earth uses to draw us into the fruit and then the trees and vines and then down into the soil from where we all awaken?
http://groworganicapples.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
On this episode we’re going to talk about some of the problems with organic viticulture. And I know this may be shocking coming from me, but yes, organic has issues.
That doesn’t mean organic viticulture is bad, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it, and that doesn’t mean it’s pointless. On the contrary, I’ve never been more committed to organic viticulture as the best form of viticulture, and I believe literally every vineyard should be farmed organically.
But there will be no green-washing in this episode.
To make the organic future of wine a reality we have some problems to solve. And we’ll never solve them by pretending they don’t exist. We need to honestly and openly discuss our own failings so that we can learn how to improve and find solutions.
So I’m incredibly grateful to my guest for this episode, Leigh Bartholomew, for being willing to openly discuss some of these issues with me.
Leigh has an incredible resume that includes work at some of the most revered and renowned wineries around the world. She’s a leader in the Oregon wine industry, and She’s been a viticulturalist for decades, with an enormous amount of experience working in vines around the world.
Leigh openly and intelligently articulates many of the less than perfect realities and compromises of organic and biodynamic viticulture, while at the same time aspiring to continue to farm organically. She simultaneously acknowledges the challenges and points the way toward solving many of the problems she brings up.
Leigh is my hero. It takes courage to come on the Organic Wine Podcast and talk about the problems with organic. So many great questions still remain for us to answer, and this conversation with Leigh Bartholomew provides the foundation for beginning to answer them.
https://dominiowines.com/
https://www.resultspartners.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
Professor Maggie Delmas refers to most of us as “convenient environmentalists” – that is, our self-interest is still the number one priority when making environmentally positive consumption decisions.
In other words we buy wine because it tastes good to us primarily, and it’s a great bonus if it was also grown and distributed in a way that benefits the environment.
Professor Delmas’s book is called The Green Bundle, Pairing the Market With The Planet, and it’s a must read for anyone trying to sell any environmentally friendly products, including wine. It’s as much a book about human psychology, as it is a deep study of marketing, branding, and consumer motivation in relation to green products.
But that’s not all. Professor Delmas has just written a paper on multiple studies she conducted comparing the scores – by the most prominent critics in France and California – of over 200,000 wines over a 20 year period.
The results? Certified Biodynamic and Organic Wine tastes better.
That’s right – Biodynamic and Organically grown wines have received statistically significantly higher scores than conventionally grown wine across the last two decades. And this is the most comprehensive and conclusive study of its kind that I’m aware of.
I hope you enjoy this interview with Professor Maggie Delmas, Professor of Management at the Institute of Environment and Sustainability at UCLA and the Anderson School of Management. Here is a link to her study of critical scores showing that certified Biodynamic and Organic wine tastes better:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800921000112?dgcid=author
Krista Scruggs has a simple story. She followed her passion for winegrowing and winemaking to learn as much as she could.
But like the best stories it’s only simple on the surface. Beneath the surface, her life is connected to ancient lands and ancient seas that traveled and flowed around the world to become fertile islands of wild grapevines, and her life is connected to ancient people who were enslaved and taken around the world to build the history that she is now regenerating with counter-spells.
Krista has had the challenge and the opportunity of navigating the wine industry without many, if any, role models who share a similar story. When Krista acquired her property on Isle La Motte, Vermont, she became the 18th Black farmer in the entire state of Vermont, and is one of the rare 1.4% of Black Americans who own land.
Because of this, she has been able to write a story that is unique, and uniquely beautiful, with new perspectives and deep connections.
Enjoy!
https://zafawines.com/
Sponsor:
https://www.centralaswine.com/
It is my honor to have Steve Matthiasson as my guest for this episode… and what I have recorded for you is a comprehensive instructional on how to farm grapes organically. Steve uses his over 25 years of professional experience as a viticulturalist to take us through an entire year of farming a vineyard.
This episode is not so much an interview as a master class.
Steve Matthiasson is a 6 time James Beard Award Nominee for his winemaking. He has been named Winemaker of the Year twice, by two different publications. Steve literally wrote the manual on sustainable winegrowing in California.
And Steve is a farmer first. He built a wine business in Napa as a punk rock farmer outsider who believes in farming organically to make wine as a fresh, expressive, and food friendly agricultural product. He makes Napa Cab that is 13% alcohol, and whole-cluster fermented Ribolla Gialla, and many other wines that stand in contrast to most of what you expect from Napa Valley wines. His accolades as a winemaker belie the fact that his wines simply capture the enormous amount of time and attention and care that he gives to the vineyards he farms.
We go deep, and it gets technical. So if you aren’t that interested in the real, detailed, how-to of farming grapes, you may be a bit overwhelmed. But if you have any interest in learning the how’s, when’s, and what’s of winegrowing, this is an amazing and invaluable episode. Get out some paper. You will want to take notes.
And if you want to learn more about this amazing guy and his organic approach to wine, please check out the other great interviews with him on the podcasts “I’ll Drink To That” with Levi Dalton, or “The Grape Nation” – Steve Matthiasson’s knowledge about and passion for wine is as immense as his generosity of spirit, and your life will only be improved by knowing him and his wines better.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Organic Wine Podcast featuring James Endicott of Vinocity Selections. I’m your host and creator, coming to you from Los Angeles, Adam Huss.
James created Vinocity Selections with his partners to leverage wine to tackle climate change by revolutionizing the supply chain. Vinocity Selections is a wine importing, distribution, and retail hub all in one. The Vinocity Selections website – vinocityselections.com – makes it clear that this company begins with agriculture, specifically viticulture that is “beyond organic.” It makes the bold claim that: “Agriculture is the climate solution. Wine is our first step.” And James accomplishes this by curating and promoting a client list of wine producers who make wine from regeneratively farmed vineyards as a first step. The big problems he is trying to solve, and that are relevant to everyone in wine, is how to create a supply chain that protects and enhances the good work these producers are doing in the vineyard.
I think you’ll really enjoy this conversation because James cares so deeply about the problems he’s trying to solve, and we went deep into some of the big questions facing the wine industry.
Also, I want to give a special thanks to Lisa Bauer of Yamakiri wines. She introduced me to James, and this episode wouldn’t have been possible without her generous spirit. You can hear my interview with Lisa on episode 24.
https://www.vinocityselections.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
My guest for this episode is Nathan Stuart, and he’s got one of the rarest and coolest jobs in wine. He’s the in house shepherd for Tablas Creek Winery.
If you don’t know Tablas Creek, suffice it to say that if you had to pick the greatest wineries in the US, by almost any measure Tablas Creek would be in top 5 on that list. Tablas Creek introduced many of the Rhone varieties of grapes to the US, and were among the first to popularize them. They are the only winery to have imported and cultivated all of the grape varieties of Châteauneuf-du-Pape.
And in addition to that, Tablas Creek has been biodynamic for years and recently became the first winery in the world to become Regenerative Organic Certified. They are like an incubator winery for holistic ideas about how farming can be improved to create healthier vines that are more integrated into the natural landscape so that the wine is as good as it possibly can be.
Nathan’s role as the shepherd is integral to this vision. More than that, he helps explain why animals are essential to not only regenerating vineyard soil health, but if properly managed they can be the key to saving the health of the planet.
Nathan takes us back in time to when the buffalo roamed in immense herds, to understand how plants, soil, and animals all evolved symbiotically together. He tells about how we’ve now begun to integrate these principles into the best farming practices today to reduce carbon emissions, improve soil health, and save money, and he gives us a vision of the future in which vineyards are actually built to accommodate and maximize the presence and influence of animals.
https://tablascreek.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
Ann Thomas is the cofounder of Wester Reserve Distillers, a craft distillery located just outside of Cleveland and Ohio’s only certified organic distillery. With her husband and son, Ann makes a full array of award winning spirits from all organic ingredients, including local organic non-GMO, heritage seed stock grains for their whiskies, gins, and vodka, organic Louisiana molasses for their rum, and organic agave for their tequila which they can’t call tequila because it isn’t made in Mexico.
No, this episode isn't about wine, but the reason I wanted to highlight what Ann and her family are doing with Western Reserve Distillers is because I think it’s extremely important to get across a simple idea about organic agriculture: I’ve found that People often don’t care whether their spirits are made with organic ingredients. I think that’s because we tend to think about everything as it relates to us personally. So we think about organic concerns from a standpoint of what we put into our body, rather than what organic means for the world. But the simple idea that I want to get across with this episode is this, and really it’s the mission for this podcast: Organic is not as much about what we put into our bodies as it is about what we put into the world. Your purchase of your favorite bourbon or vodka supports an entire agricultural system and supply chain that involves millions of acres of land and waterways. Take corn for example, which is used in bourbon and other whiskies. It accounts for over 91 million acres of farmland in the US, most of which is grown conventionally with chemical herbicides and pesticides and fertilizers. Corn alone accounts for millions of tons of hazardous chemicals being dumped into our environment. If you are not buying organic spirits, you are helping to create and support that system.
So I wanted to introduce you to one of a handful of spirits companies that is giving you an option to defund the destruction of our environment, including a bourbon that beat Pappy Van Winkle as best bourbon in the world. Ultimately, of course, it will be healthier for you too because you’ll get to live in a cleaner world.
I know you’ll enjoy meeting Ann Thomas as much as I did, and I hope the great work she and her family are doing with Western Reserve Distillers makes you think twice the next time you reach for your favorite spirit.
https://www.westernreservedistillers.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
Wine and winemaking are having a renaissance in Los Angeles. And Lindsay Williams and Belen Arredondo are making sure that South Central is part of that renaissance.
Lindsay is a doctor of nursing, a frontline worker during the pandemic, and the founder of the South LA Wine club. Belen is a South LA garagiste, literally making a ton of wine in her garage, and joined Lindsay as a co-operator of the South LA Wine Club. Together they are working to bring good wine, with equity and diversity of choice, to their community. I would bet lots of money that this is just the beginning of many big, bright, and beautiful wine projects that these two create and work on both independently and together.
For Lindsay and Belen wine is about connection, and the passion and compassion that they bring to helping others connect with each other through wine is inspiring. Their stories will convince you that there is a beautiful – and delicious – future for wine in our neighborhood, and yours.
https://www.southlawineclub.com/
@ThisLAtinaBelen
@southlawineclub
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. This is an important mantra and one that we’ve all heard and applied in some small or large way at home. But for my guest for this episode, this was more than a good idea – it was her career, and it led to her starting her winery.
Lisa Bauer is the owner of Yamakiri – a winery she started when she discovered a feral sauvignon blanc vineyard full of grapes that were going to waste.
That vineyard couldn’t have been discovered by a better person. Lisa had recently retired from a career in recycling and had a viticultultural philosophy inspired by Masanobu Fukuoka. After retiring she had bought land and moved to the Yorkville Highlands AVA of Mendocino County. Her desire to let nothing go to waste started her on a path to figure out what to do with those savignon blanc grapes… and led to a chain of events that resulted in her winery and her cidery called Sineater Ciders.
With Yamakiri and Sineater she continues to make use of that feral vineyard, which she allows to remain “wild,” as well as grapes and fruit from other organic and biodynamic vineyards and orchards.
I had a blast getting to know Lisa a little bit, and I hope you do too. She’s funny, smart, and inspiring, and really forged her own path in wine by following her organic values and her desire to let nothing go to waste.
http://www.yamakiriwines.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
Today we take a trip to the country to meet Craig Camp, the General Manager of Troon Vineyard in the Applegate Valley AVA of Southwest Oregon. Troon is a certified organic and biodynamic winery and estate vineyard that focuses on blends made from the grapes of Southern France, which seem to do extremely well in this northern area with a hot Mediterranean climate.
Craig was brought in to regenerate every aspect of Troon, and we had a very enjoyable conversation about everything that is happening there that he has helped implement. From soil testing and replanting and staff education to sheep dogs to organic vegetable gardens and more, even from the outside it’s exciting to hear about what he’s doing, and you can hear the excitement in the way he talks about it.
Craig has a personal story in regards to wine that I can relate to as well. He fell in love with wine far away from where it was grown, and over the course of his life and several career changes, he worked backwards toward an understanding of how the finest wine begins in a healthy, probiotic soil.
http://www.troonvineyard.com/
https://winecampblog.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
This episode highlights one of the new winemaking teams that are part of the Southern California Wine Rennaissance.
Herrmann York is the brand new winery that is a partnership of three young gents: Dustin Herrmann, Garrett York, and Taylor York. They all originate and make wine from a part of California that is often both over-looked and unfairly maligned as a wine growing region: southern, specifically inland, California. The high desert.
They are using their intelligence, passion, and loyalty to their corner of the world to prove that delicate, interesting, and delicious wines can be made in the desert.
Hearing them talk about how they are doing this is a colorful journey through this climate and its extremes, the grapes that thrive there, and the creativity they are using to craft wines that actually haven’t been made before.
https://www.herrmannyork.wine/
@herrmannyorkwine
Matt Niess discusses his winery slash cidery, North American Press, which is a California winery dedicated to native & hybrid grapes, heirloom apples, and native ingredients.
Matt forages wild grapes to blend with heirloom apples to make cider. He farms and makes wine from a small Baco Noir vineyard on the Sonoma Coast that is own-rooted in clay, below the fog line, and is not tilled NOR SPRAYED. And he’s convincing vineyard owners to let him foot the bill to plant an array of hybrid grapes in valuable vineyard land.
All of this takes a fair bit of courage. Matt is risking his livelihood on grapes and ideas that California has ignored and even shunned for over a century. He’s asking difficult questions, and he’s bravely willing to face the consequences of the unknown. Even doing this podcast was an act of courage for Matt, as you’ll find out.
Matt is willing to face these risks because the truth is that he isn’t just making wine, he’s on a mission to eliminate prejudice. Matt is breaking down prejudice against non-european grapes and wine flavors, prejudice against native plants and foods, and prejudice against the ways and wisdom of native peoples whose knowledge of the natural world may hold answers to some of the most urgent issues we’re facing today.
Once you’ve talked to Matt, it’s hard to talk about terroir or a sense of place in wine grown in California and North America in general without asking the questions he’s asking. And it’s become increasingly clear that asking these questions is necessary if we want to preserve biodiversity, get rid of our dependence on chemicals, survive extreme weather, and improve food security.
Laura Brennan Bissel is the owner of and winemaker for INCONNU.
She built her career, INCONNU, and a new project in the Columbia Gorge, by following her curiosity, her drive to find an occupation that allowed her to express her innate creativity, all while being guided by her love of wine.
As you’ll hear, Laura is beautifully articulate about some of the most important aspects of wine – its ability to inspire and encapsulate our love of life, and its sensual magic that somehow transcends the senses. But these aren’t romantic notion to her. They give wine its depth, and she’s quick to emphasize the respect and patience that great wine demands.
If you have an artists soul, If you are a free spirit, if you learn by doing, and if you are driven to create something beautiful and good… then you will enjoy getting to know Laura. She’s as much Muse as winemaker, and you’ll find yourself equal parts inspired and enchanted.
My guest for this episode is Alice Anderson. Alice is the vigneron for Amevive winery, based in Santa Barbara County. Alice leases the Ibarra-Young vineyard in the Los Olivos district and farms it with regenerative organic and biodynamic viticulture in partnership with animals and the native flora and fauna. In this interview we really dig into the winegrowing and winemaking specifics of how to craft beautiful, natural wines, even in hot, crazy years like 2020. It’s clear that Alice’s brilliance is in her holistic perspective on both caring for vines and making wine, and her generosity of spirit and thoughtfulness come through in the way she approaches every aspect of her passion. Amevive is only on its second vintage, and its already clear we can expect great things to come from Alice.
https://www.amevivewine.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
There is a lot of confusion about the term "organic." These misunderstandings lead a lot of people to be incorrectly dismissive or critical of “organic” foods and practices.
This is a short episode to clear up these misunderstandings about "organic." Adam Huss, host and creator of the Organic Wine Podcast, discusses exactly what Organic does NOT mean, and what it actually does mean.
Nadine Brown’s story is in many ways a classic American tale. Nadine is an immigrant. She came to the US to study and work, and when plans didn’t work out, she found herself applying for a job as a restaurant host in Washington DC. She had no previous restaurant experience and had every intention for it to be a temporary position. However, she fell in love with the hospitality industry. In restaurants she discovered her love of the energy and adrenaline of working the floor, and she discovered wine. It fascinated her and sparked her curiosity. Born in Jamaica, she grew up with coffee and rum and no exposure to wine, but once she found it she couldn’t let it go.
Through hard work, smarts, and determination – that good old American cliché - she learned, and trained, and worked her way up to become an award winning sommelier and wine director for Charlie Palmer Steakhouse – one of the premier restaurants for DC’s political and social elite. At Charlie Palmer she built a renowned cellar focused on American wines and served wine to people at the highest levels of politics, even a future president, all while meeting her husband in the kitchen and becoming the mother of two children.
Now she is a proud board member of the Restaurant Association of Metropolitan D.C. and the extremely well-named nonprofit the Veraison Project, which is dedicated to bringing more color to the wine industry through greater access to wine education, wine certifications, mentoring, and networking for people of color. She continues to be a mentor to many young professionals in the business, and she strives to encourage more women to join and stay in the industry.
@nadinewinebrown
https://www.theveraisonproject.com/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
Dr. Andrew Smith is the COO and Chief Scientist for the Rodale Institute. The Rodale Institute the non-profit that was the birthplace of the organic movement. It has been the global leader at the forefront of the science behind organic agriculture. The Institute has conducted decades-long comparative studies on the results between organic farming versus conventional farming.
The Rodale Institute has amassed, and continues to accumulate, the science-based data that can answer some of the biggest questions facing our world today. Questions like: What kind of agriculture is the most productive during droughts? What kind of agriculture sequesters more carbon? What kind of agriculture produces the most nutritious food? And, can we feed earths billions of inhabitants without the use of chemical fertilizers or pesticides? Bonus question: Can we use marijuana as a vineyard cover crop?
In this interview with Dr. Drew Smith you’ll come to realize that the work he is doing at the Rodale Institute is about more than just improving agriculture around the planet… it’s about human survival. And there is hope!
https://rodaleinstitute.org/
https://regenorganic.org/
Sponsor:
https://centralaswine.com/
As a young US diplomat working in Switzerland, Sandra Taylor fell in love with wine while visiting the nearby Burgundy region of France.
Sandra is now CEO of Sustainable Business International, a consulting business that assists clients at various stages of environmental sustainability and corporate social responsibility (CSR) practice, primarily in the food and beverage sector. Sandra has studied wine extensively for many years – she completed the French Wine Scholars course in 2010 and is a graduate of the Wine MBA program at The Bordeaux School of Management/Kedge Business School in France. She is a public speaker on wine internationally, a columnist with Wine Review Online and a member of the Magnum Club, a global organization of women wine producers, sommeliers, writers and critics.
Sandra has been a senior executive with Starbucks Coffee Company in Seattle, where she led global corporate responsibility and sustainability in coffee supply chain, and with Eastman Kodak Company where she oversaw global public affairs and corporate citizenship. She continues to speak and teach globally about sustainability in wine, and has literally written the book about sustainability in the wine business… it’s called: The Business of Sustainable Wine (2017) – and, like Sandra, it is a wealth of vital information about sustainability.
We talk about many of the issues around sustainability, including how to define it as more than just a marketing buzzword, why wine is uniquely positioned to capture consumer attention and move all industry toward sustainability, how important it is for the wine industry to set an example of sustainability, how businesses can better communicate the importance of these values to consumers, and why sustainable practices ultimately result in more delicious wine.
Sandra is clearly a brilliant mind who loves wine and we barely scratch the surface of her extensive knowledge about sustainability in wine. Enjoy!
https://discoversustainablewine.com/
http://www.sustainablebizintl.com/meet-our-founder/
Thanks for listening!
https://centralaswine.com/
Roni Selects is a preeminent importer and distributor of natural wines, based in los angeles. And Roni Ginach is its founder. She was the former wine direct for the renowned restaurant Michael’s of Santa Monica until she was given the opportunity to help distribute wine for California’s Grandfather of Natural Wine – Tony Coturri. From there a new career was born.
Now Roni represents winemakers from France, Germany, Italy, The US and Georgia and more and – as you’ll hear – she balances her time between navigating the bureaucratic labyrinth required to move wine from one side of the world to the other, and visiting and relishing the beauty of the people and places where the wines are produced.
Along the way she is helping to shape industry awareness about the importance of natural, regenerative, organic wine growing and making practices to the quality and deliciousness of wine, as well as the need to eliminate some of the dogma around natural wine righteousness, and how natural wine can be a more inclusive segment of the industry.
Roni’s story highlights her love and appreciation for the amazing wines that are a result of a deep passion for farming grapes holistically, with care and respect for the earth – a kind of agriculture that is, unfortunately, still somewhat radical and even subversive. Enjoy!
https://www.roniselects.com/
https://www.lacruzdecomalwines.com/
https://centralaswine.com/
Pamela Marrone is the Founder of Marrone Bio Innovations, Inc. and multiple other companies dedicated to finding, developing and distributing Biological Pesticides. Her companies have been responsible for several of the most widely used organic pesticides in the wine industry today, including: Serenade, Sonata, Regalia, Grandevo, and Venerate.
Pam is on the boards of several institutions, companies, and foundations and is called on to participate in agricultural think tanks to help solve some of the biggest problems in viticulture and agriculture as well because she has dedicated her life to developing and promoting alternatives to synthetic chemical pesticides. And she advises others who have started companies in this field.
Biologicals are naturally derived from the microbial life in the soil or from plant extracts. Most are allowed in organic viticulture and agriculture, yet they integrate so well into conventional programs that they are beginning to help transition conventional farmers to organic farming. Many of the chemicals Pam has helped develop over the years are now the standards for organic pesticides used across the wine industry.
This fascinating field of study is far behind where it could be, and that means there are exciting opportunities for discoveries and investment still to come. Pam is a fantastic spokesperson for biologicals, and makes a convincing case for their importance in an industry dominated by synthetic petro-chemicals.
I’m thrilled to be able to share Pam with you through this interview. She has been doing great work for a long time and has been helping to steer viticulture – and all agriculture – in the right direction. We barely scratch the surface of her knowledge and experience, so I hope this will inspire you to learn more. Enjoy!
Contact Pam: pammarrone@bioaglinkages.com
Learn more: www.marronebio.com
Ricky Taylor worked in an office in Houston Texas and one day decided to plant a regeneratively farmed vineyard 600 miles away on a mountainside in the middle of nowhere in far west Texas at over a mile high in elevation.
What Ricky and his partner, Katie, are doing with Alta Marfa – their vineyard and soon to be winery outside of Marfa, Texas - is something that essentially hasn’t been done before in Texas.
So to make it happen they have relied on the knowledge and assistance of a network of people that spans the continent, as well as a lot of hard work, hours on the road, and the belief that leaving the natural world intact is essential to making the highest quality wine.
The story of Alta Marfa is just beginning, but already it’s one that – like the Texas sky at night- shines with beauty and the sense that we are part of something bigger than ourselves.
http://www.altamarfa.com/
Among several other things, Jeff Lowenfels is the author of a trilogy of books that should be required reading for everyone on the planet, but especially those of us who work in wine. His books are titled:
Teaming with Microbes, Teaming with Nutrients, and Teaming with Fungi
Be warned – your mind is about to be blown. If you haven’t been exposed to the soil food web, it’s likely that everything you think you know about soil, and fertilizer, and growing plants is wrong.
This is the new Soil 101, and the science, as Jeff lays it out, is so compelling and fascinating that you will never again walk through a field, or forest, or vineyard without a sense of wonder and awe. And that glass of wine in your hand will become something even more precious, and perhaps metaphysical.
If you have ANY interest in producing, understanding, or drinking amazing wine, what you’re about to learn is the foundation for it all.
I don’t think I’m overstating it by saying that what Jeff has to teach us is revolutionary.
https://www.jefflowenfels.com/
Brook Williams used to be an accountant, and yet he still made the seemingly crazy decision to get into the wine business as a biodyanmic grape farmer/ vineyard owner. How did he justify such a potentially economically risky decision to the accounting part of his brain? His answer to this will give anyone with a dream of owning a vineyard some practical financial ideas about how to make vineyard ownership make sense.
Brook and his family own three vineyards in the Santa Barabara and San Luis Obispo Counties of California, and make wine under the brand "J. Dirt," a nickname his daughter gave him. Before jumping into owning three family-run biodynamic vineyards, Brook's experience with wine had been as an account and general manager for several very large, very conventional wineries. We talk about how and why he made the transition, and the knowledge he has learned along the way to convince him of the benefits of biodynamic viticulture.
https://jdirtwines.com/
Doug Swim is the California Sales Manager for Amy Atwood Selections, one of the premier distributors of natural wine in California. The portfolio that Doug supervises includes the most well-known names in the New California wine movement, and we discuss what it's like to work with and be part of this new, crazy thing that's happening here in California and in Los Angeles specifically. This is an insider's look at the LA wine industry, as well as a discussion about the heart and soul that inspires it.
Doug uses the term "agricultural artists" at one point to describe the passionate producers of natural wine. This term points to the creative vision, as well as the connection to the earth, that may be key reasons so many people have fallen in love with natural wine.
This ain't your daddy's juice!
http://www.amyatwood.com/
https://historicvineyardsociety.org/
Abe Schoener has been a disrupter and part of the avant garde of the new school of California wine for so long he’s old school new school. Since 2000 he has been the mind behind The Scholium Project – his winery/philosophical pursuit of a natural, vineyard-specific wine experience. Recently he has moved his base of operations to downtown Los Angeles, and is beginning to make wines from unique old vineyards in Southern California under the auspices of the Los Angeles River Wine Company. Some of the vineyards Abe is working with predate prohibition, and have been untouched by human hands since the 1950’s or 60’s.
In our conversation, Abe digs into how he has begun to carefully care for these special vineyards and make wine from them, and what these wines taste like now and promise to taste like in the future. We also talk about Abe’s non-dogmatic perspective on being in the Natural Wine category, and his desire to make wine a unique experience rather than a something defined by grape variety.
Abe’s temporary winery location is outdoors in downtown LA industrial zone, and we had the great fortune of recording this podcast while someone was jackhammering nearby throughout the entire interview. So, please bear with the authentic audio background texture. Other than that, it’s a fantastic interview that I hope you’ll get as much out of as I did.
Chloe Miranda is the sommelier at Birdie Gs Restaurant in Santa Monica, California. Birdie G’s is one of our favorite restaurants, not just because the food and wine is amazing, but also because they use a significant percentage of organically grown ingredients and feature many wines grown organically (or better).
Chloe is my favorite sommelier. She’s a consummate and egoless professional, asks good questions before trying to suggest a wine, offered us tastes of multiple wines so that we could sample before committing, and generally put us at ease with the entire wine selection process. When Chloe is our host, We always end up drinking more wine than we thought we would, which I think would make Chole’s bosses happy too.
The other thing I like about Chloe is that she’s self-taught and has not gone through the traditional certification process to get to become a sommelier. In this interview she discusses some of the pros and cons of taking this path, and how she continues to educate herself about wine. We also talk about some of the market trends with regard to organic wine, and some of Chloe’s perspectives that help make her successful as a sommelier.
Matt Clark is an assistant professor of horticulture and enology at the University of Minnesota. He heads up the U of M participation in VitisGen2, a multi-institutional grape breeding collaboration that has a goal to breed new resistant grape varieties that taste delicious and can be grown with far less pesticide use than standard European grapes. Matt is at the cutting edge of the academic efforts that may result in the next great truly American wine from actual American grapes.
The relevance of the ideas that Matt addresses cannot be overstated. The current wine industry around the world is built on a handful of varieties of the same species of grape. These varieties have not changed for hundreds of years while the viruses, fungi, and insects that prey upon those grapevines have continued to evolve and adapt. Some day – and that day is rapidly approaching – there will be a reckoning. New virus and fungal pressures will eventually overcome our ability to successfully grow these out-dated varieties without massive amounts of crutches – chemical or otherwise.
The main hurdle to allowing grapes – and therefore wine – to adapt, is consumer perception created by pervasively marketed ideas of the supremacy of European varieties. In this conversation we talk about what Matt and other scientists are doing to create the future of wine, and I hope that it will help open your eyes to the immense potential and many options that are becoming available for grape growers and wine lovers if we expand our pallets and begin to embrace the change that is necessary to advance wine. Enjoy!
Andy Brennan is the owner of Aaron Burr Cidery in New York, and he's the author of Uncultivated - a book about making cider and a cider business from wild, foraged apples.
Real apple cider is one of America's finest wines, and Andy is one of the finest cider makers in America. In this interview we explore his philosophies and strategies for navigating the modern world with an perspective that is inspired by the timeless cycles of the apple tree.
Rudy Marchesi is the chairman of the board of directors for Demeter USA, the national Biodynamic certifying organization for all biodynamic agriculture. Rudy is also a managing partner for Montinore Estate. Montinore is based in the Willamette valley in Oregon, and is one of the largest biodynamic wineries in the nation, growing classic Oregon Pinot Noir, as well as some Italian varieties that are not common at all in Oregon.
In this interview, Rudy gives us a great overview of the history and benefits of practicing biodynamic vinticulture. Those benefits extend to the biology and economics of growing wine, but also to the taste of the resulting wine. He talks about practicing biodynamics at both a micro-vineyard, as well as at a large estate like Montinore. We also touch on what it means to have your vineyards vs your winery certified, how biodynamic certification compares to organic certification, and how Demeter incorporates new scientific knowledge into its regulations.
If you have heard about biodynamics or drank a biodynamic wine, and wondered what it entails, or if you think you know about it and have your doubts, this interview may be just the thing for you. A big thanks to Rudy for taking the time to layout an articulate and well-argued case for biodynamics. And thank you for listening… enjoy!
Mimi Casteel is Imbibe Magazine’s 2020 Wine Person of the Year. She’s the vigneron for Hope Well, a certified organic vineyard and a winery in Oregon that she farms regeneratively with animals and birds and all kinds of flora and fauna with no tilling and no fences. Please do yourself a favor and find Mimi’s YouTube video about glyphosate. It’s a master class on soil and vine microbiology, and the devastating effect RoundUp has had on our food and wine. You can find it in a blog post I did.
Also, check out any article or interview you can find online about Mimi. She’s one of the truly brilliant scientific minds working at the cutting edge of regenerative viticulture and agriculture in general. She thinks deeply about so many of the issues facing the wine industry, agriculture, and society at large, and Everything she talks about is full of big, important ideas that could shape the future of our world for the better.
This interview is no different. We skip the backstory and dive right into the big ideas that are occupying Mimi’s mind these days involving experimenting with a sulf-sustaining community. We talk about the need for there to be more integration between rural and urban worlds, the ways that she farms and solves problems at Hope Well, the need to integrate and involve vineyard workers in all aspects of winemaking and the wine world, and so much more. As with anyone on the cutting edge, many of Mimi’s ideas are controversial and even incendiary. I hope you are incensed, intriqued, and inspired by this interview with one of the great minds of our time.
Karl Hambsch is the owner of the only certified organic winery in Virginia - Loving Cup Vineyards & Winery, outside of Charlottesville - and one of less than a handful of organic wineries on the entire East Coast of the US.
Karl has been able to grow wine organically in Virginia because of a lot of hard, and careful, work. He has trialed over 50 varieties of grapes over the past dozen years to find varieties that have the characteristics and natural disease resistance to withstand the onslaught of fungi, mildews, pests and infections that are rampant in the hot, humid growing season of the Mid-Atlantic region.
Because of his commitment to organic viticulture, Karl has had to basically replicate the process of natural selection in the Loving Cup vineyard for delicious grapes that are disease and pest resistant. This is a process that would normally take millennia, and resulted in the dominant European (Vitis vinifera) varieties we know today. At Loving Cup, Karl continues this process to find the most expressive grapes best adapted to his terroir, a process that will result in the grapes that future generations will come to know and love.
Karl's approach to growing wine is not for the faint-hearted, but it provides hope and an amazing example of the potential viability of organic viticulture everywhere. If he can do it in Virginia, then winegrowers in California have no excuse not to practice organic viticulture.
In this in-depth interview, Karl explains his specific methods of grape variety selection for organic cultivation, his four-pronged approach to making organic viticulture work - ideas that could and should translate to any grape-growing region in the world. We also discuss the immense challenges of growing grapes in Virginia, the fascinating possibilities that arise from growing hybrid varieties, PIWI grapes, the realities of having both your vineyards and your winery organically certified, and much more.
How can wine help connect us to the solutions to some of the most pressing problems facing the world today? How can the wine industry change to make this possible? And who is Adam Huss, and why has he started the Organic Wine Podcast to answer these questions?