Like Trees Walking: Recent Episodes
David Berge & Michael J Nelson
David Berge and Michael J Nelson take on the big questions of philosophy, theology, and culture in the 21st century from a Christian perspective with a touch (well maybe more than a touch) of humor. We talk about serious topics without taking ourselves seriously.
Tim Keller founded Redeemer Presbyterian Church in NYC in 1989. Over the course of his quarter century as its pastor the church and Keller - unapologetically classical in its theology - rose to a place of influence in the midst of Manhattan. Dave reflects on his engagement with Keller and why he was so influential. In the second half the tables are turned from an learner episode where Mike quizzed Dave on Billy Joel's original "We Didn't Start the Fire" and now it is Mike being quizzed on Fall Out Boy's updated version. Warning, the song is terrible and this part of the show is far too long.
Augustine? Anselm? Aquinas? Aquaman? Who is the GOAT? Who is in the top five theologians of all-time according to this highly objective and scientific ranking process? Also, the real story behind the lost live podcast is finally told.
As the early church wrestled with questions regarding the relationship of God and Jesus and the subsequent implications for the relationship between God and humanity some answers were deemed heretical. We discuss the differences between heresy and orthodoxy. Plus, the guys discuss the interesting phenomena of what it is socially acceptable to comment upon regarding your appearance.
The polls are in and things are not looking up for Christianity in America. Why? Is this good? Bad? Where are we? Dave offers his theories and then Mike quizzes Dave on real or fanfic related to the Screwtape Letters.
Ok, stuff sure looks like it was designed, but is it really? Richard Dawkins or Sir William Paley? Goldilocks universe or a simulation? Who knows? We do! Plus we share some of our favorite "tunes" that are just so fine.
The year was 2008 (or 2009?) Pastor Dave turned in a paper defending the compatibility of Christianity with the death penalty in certain limited circumstances contra his professor the esteemed Christian ethicist Nancy Duff. Dave explains why he was right and then he and Mike sharpen Dave's knives that were even duller than his arguments.
Who knows Mike better: Amazon or his step-mother? The answer isn't so simple and how does the vast amount of information we produce compare to the kind of knowledge that God has of us? And finally, what can a chat with an AI bot tell us about the meaning of life?
Beloved astrophysicist and Twitter gadfly Neil Degrasse Tyson said that "the good thing about science is that it is true whether you believe it or not." This didn't sit well with America's sassiest meat product who clapped back "log off bro." The guys share their reflections on who got the better in what turned out to be a clash of intellectual titans. In the end Mike shares a great tip for trying out a new restaurant without breaking the bank (spoiler alert: it's not dine and dash)
"Who Killed Mars Hill?" — is the provocative title of Christianity Today's hugely successful podcast entitled The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Spoiler alert, we all did! Seriously, CT's audio autopsy of one Seattle megachurch brings together so much what has animated a certain flavor of American Protestantism over the last few decades. It occasioned some thoughts from Pastor Dave and Mike had literally never heard anything about this church and its controversial pastor. At the end they share a couple podcast recommendations.
The year was 2006 when Pastor Dave first encountered the Enneagram of Personality. Over the years he’s seen it increase in prominence and he’s heard various origin stories, tracing it all the way back to the Desert Fathers of the early church. The guys assess these claims and its value. For a helpful article read this article entitled “Can We Do Better Than the Enneagram?” from Christianity Today.
We didn't choose to be born, nor from the Christian perspective did we choose to be born in sin. Yet, we are told that we need a Savior to deliver us and to place our trust in him. How is this fair? How does this make sense? Is an Aldi breakfast cookie a cracker? Listen to hear these answers and more.
We all know her (or do we?). We all hate her (but should we?). Pastor Dave wants to talk about Karen. When does a joke about a certain "type" of person become a blanket cover for a certain kind of misogyny? Should that bother us? Should Dave eat whatever it is Mike is going to feed him? Find out on this episode of Like Trees Walking. (Also, was Kate from John & Kate Plus 8 the ür-Karen - even though she is a Kate?)
In the early 2010s Bo Burnham released a song “From God’s Perspective.” It is bad and takes us back to those heady days when the star of the New Atheists was starting to fade. This song helps us understand why. Also, lest we be accused of having a tin-ear toward comedy, we share our reactions to Rolling Stone’s list of the Top 20 Stand Up Comedians of All Time.
John McWhorter has been writing on the rise of the new antiracism at his Substack. He compares it to a religion but in the most facile ways possible that reveal more about his own impoverished understanding of faith and less about why this approach to race in America is wrong. Pastor Dave shares a recent epiphany he had regarding the newest Star Wars trilogy.
You can purchase Thomas’ book from Amazon or Barnes and Noble. He currently works as a Senior Fellow for the Council on Criminal Justice.
After more than a year of our lives being upended by a global pandemic we've gotten used to a certain type of figure saying that they're just going to follow the science. While this is better than sticking one's head in the sand or ignoring medical science, it is also insufficient for the significant social and political interests that need to be weighed. Also, what does Mike think about punching down vs. punching up in comedy.
Following George Floyd's murder millions of people took to the streets to protest this injustice. Additionally there were those who used this as a pretext for rioting, stealing, and violent mayhem. When this behavior was decried, some pointing to Jesus himself as the sanctifier of riots. This issue hit very close to home (literally) for the guys. Also, Dave shares a story of when he observed a hockey riot breaking out.
Godwin's Law states: "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." Can we learn anything to expand our repertoire beyond these tired analogies. Read this article from Slate in 2011: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2011/10/hank-williams-jr-firing-who-was-the-rhetorical-worst-person-in-history-before-hitler.html
"We are more divided than ever" goes the cliche, which like most cliches has some truth to it. When our houses, friendships, families and bowling leagues are divided how can be build bridges and be in relationship? Also, we need to talk about sweating.
2020-21 have stunk. Paul encourages Christians to think about good things. These are some of the things Mike and Dave are thinking about. Mike makes Dave eat seaweed paper.
Lizard people, jet fuel melting steel beams, crisis actors, JFK blown away what else do we have to say? Quite a bit actually.
Pastor Dave read Ruth Graham's NYT piece following the end of Carl Lentz's tenure at Hillsong NYC and thought "there but for the grace of God go I." The guys talk about entitlement, alienation, and accountability in the church.
Michael J Nelson isn't on social media at all. Pastor Dave uses his like an addict. Which is healthier? You decide!
The year was 2006, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins were topping the bestseller lists denouncing religion. Pastafarianism was the fastest growing religion on Facebook. Fast forward almost 15 years and New Atheism is old. Where did it go? Who won? Do we even know what we're talking about.
Before getting his PhD from Harvard, Peter Moskos served as a cop in the Eastern District of Baltimore. Moskos has written extensively on issues related to policing, crime, prisons, and reform. You can find his work at copinthehood.com and buy his books Cop In the Hood and In Defense of Flogging on Amazon.com
Here we talk about issues related to policing that have arisen since the killing of George Floyd and broader political and ideological challenges in this particular moment.
Chris Arnade was a quant on Wall Street before growing disillusioned with his "front row" life and started visited neighborhoods where people told him not to go. What he found there changed his way of understanding the world, including the role of faith in providing Americans of all stripes with a sense of dignity. It also challenged his confident, though not obnoxious, atheism. His collection of photos and reflections on what he saw and experienced in his travels and what it taught him about class, race, religion, and politics in America are found in his book Dignity, available wherever fine books are sold. https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/dp/0525534733
We wanted to record an episode about this, but felt like this captured all that we could say at this particular moment that was worth saying.
When Amy went into pre-term labor with her first child her doctor prescribed bed rest for 6 weeks. For those long weeks Amy had to stay in bed more than 23 hours a day. How did she survive? What helped? What didn't? Where was God? What can that teach us about making it through the pandemic?
With the world cowering before COVID-19 Gal Gadot thought, "what can I do to help?" The answer she came up with to have a bunch of celebrities sing John Lennon's Imagine. Imagine has an undeserved place in the musical cannon as inspirational and unifying. The only way it can truly unite us is in our hatred of it and its absurd message.
Tod Bolsinger is an expert on leadership and adaptive change in the church. In 2015 he published a book called Canoeing The Mountains that used the Lewis and Clark expedition as a metaphor for the changing realities of church leadership and Christian discipleship in a post-Christendom era. You can buy his book wherever fine books are sold or get free resources from Fuller about using the book with your church/organization by texting "canoeing" to 66866.
The guys have a wide ranging discussion about the spread of COVID-19, social distancing, how Asian countries have responded, the church's responsibility in the midst of crises, the problem of evil, human agency, and the culpability of the CCP.
Read some of Lyman's work on COVID-19: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/13/christianity-epidemics-2000-years-should-i-still-go-to-church-coronavirus/ https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/the-church-must-be-a-refuge-in-the-midst-of-fear https://docs.google.com/document/d/13bKFzl1PvObLlRXTx9pIPMOyBWiGkKhHdXu_iWXUqjM/preview
Who is your hero? Do you have one? What makes a hero? The boys stop and mull this over before sharing the name and story of one of their own heroes, neither of which wears or wore a cape.
Former Dallas police officer Amber Guyger murdered Botham Jean in his apartment in a terrible tragedy. At her sentencing Jean's brother offered forgiveness and the moment went viral which prompted a backlash against this act. Was it right for him forgive? What's the relationship between justice and forgiveness? Will Dave like what tinned-fish Mike serves him today? Listen to find out.
Is there literally no reason to believe in God? Is it all just a "God of the gaps" scenario and basically an appeal to ignorance and a constant losing rearguard action. You can imagine Mike and Dave don't think so. Hear why in this episode.
You can donate money to the Ace in the City Center of Belonging here: https://www.facebook.com/donate/281293802790920/987495071649295/ or here: https://www.aceinthecity.org/center-of-belonging/#donate-cob The article on Millennials leaving the church can be found here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/millennials-are-leaving-religion-and-not-coming-back/ Data on religious switching can be found here: https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/ On Young Adults leaving church and the reasons they do look here: https://lifewayresearch.com/2019/01/15/most-teenagers-drop-out-of-church-as-young-adults/
We're looking to raise $1000 toward Ace in the City's Center of Belonging which will collaboratively cultivate a physical space that addresses the foundational life supports and services crucial toward healthy living, including:Full-Choice Food Shelf, Food for Life Classes, Youth Development/Drop-In Childcare, Housing Stability, Addiction Recovery, and Vocational Training.
Please end your contribution in a 9 (for episode 9) so it counts toward out total. You can see the movie with us December 28th if you're in the Twin Cities and donate at least $500. Follow these thinks to give: https://www.facebook.com/donate/281293802790920/ or https://aceinthecity.org/center-of-belonging/
October 25, 2019 Kanye West released "JESUS IS KING" and many take have ensued. Mike is blissfully ignorant of it all, while Dave some reflections on the record itself as well as how one should react when a global icon has his own "come to Jesus moment."
Is it ethical to have children in the midst of the climate crisis? How can we bring kids into a world on fire? These are increasingly common questions and Dave and Mike reflect on a Christian attitude toward children. They conclude spoiler alert actually kids are good.
For those following along at home here's the timing on the movie clips (free to stream on Netflix): Clip #1: IN 24:58//OUT 25:09 Clip #2: IN 25:59// OUT 26:45 Clip #3: IN 32:44//OUT 34:43 Clip #4 IN 38:05//OUT 39:21 Clip #5: IN 58:25//OUT 59:53 Clip #6 IN 1:33:56//OUT 1:34:05 Clip #7 IN 1:35:02//OUT 1:35:41
See 372 Pages & LTW live, September 18 at Sisyphus Brewing in Minneapolis. Click this link for tickets: https://dojour.us/e/12174-372-pages-well-never-get-back-like-trees-walking-live?fbclid=IwAR1RMy7qYDFqDHdZXbIwH8TyvZERwANuYrNs36kYuzpfOiAGYHwNlfq0jl0
The Book of Revelation talks about the walls that will surround the New Jerusalem. Does that mean the US should build a gigantic wall at our southern border? This raises questions about how we bring Scripture to bear in shaping our imaginations regarding public policy. How can we do better than simply playing "bible darts"?
Mike has mused for a long time on what it would mean for the Christian faith if there were aliens. Dave hasn't and is more of a ghost guy than an alien guy. Dave shares his own encounter with a famous person.
Dave and Mike tackle the difficulty of defining religion and differentiating it from other things. Dave also shares a story of acting out a scene from Deuce Bigalow with one of the actors involved.
David Benatar agrees with George Bailey as he stood on the bridge saying "I wish I had never been born." Benatar does George one-better and wishes that no sentient life had ever existed because existence is beyond terrible. You can read the article here: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-case-for-not-being-born Tinned fish gets eaten.
Candidate X (cough Mayor Pete) is very articulate in talking about the importance of his religious faith for their political vision for the country. Should you believe that person? Look at their tax returns! (Unless they're the President and won't release them.) Dave names and shames, and names and praises the candidates who are merely giving faith lip service, and those who are willing to put their money where their mouths are. Mike went back to his boyhood home and was very disturbed by his own version of believing that Sinbad was in a movie called "Shazaam."
You can read the NYT's article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/opinion/-philosophy-god-omniscience.html
Serene Jones is the president of Union Theological Seminary. She also doesn't believe in a 'literal' resurrection and finds the virgin birth 'bizarre.' But love is stronger than life and death or something like that. Read the article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/christian-easter-serene-jones.html
Dave defends church buildings and the guys discuss the relationship between architecture, theology, beauty, and worship. Mike tells a story about almost being beaten up by Brooks & Dunn while lunching with Kim Cattrall.
Conan and Kristen were both raised Catholic but give it little to no credit for their moral formation. Dave and Mike take on the idea of Christianity as primarily a "moral code" and where the directions for one's moral compass come from.
Brent continues his case for the Old Testament in light of neo-Marcionite rhetoric from the likes of Andy Stanley.
You can find Brent's book The Old Testament is Dying at Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Old-Testament-Dying-Recommended-Explorations/dp/0801048885/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)
A link to the article discussed in the episode: https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/does-free-will-exist-in-the-universe-that-would-be-a-no
What do you say to someone who's been abused by the church or doesn't trust it because of clergy sexual abuse? Dave and Mike take this head on. Mike also does his best (well, second best probably) James Lipton impression.
Mike's had a headache for a long time. How does he reconcile that with his Christian faith? What does the good pastor have to say? Also, what's up with Christianese like "love on you"?
You can read the article that inspired this episode here https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/05/easier-with-three-work-life-and-polyamory.html
You can look at the Tweet thread in question here https://twitter.com/Nicole_Cliffe/status/976513921916874752. The distracted boyfriend meme can be found here http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/distracted-boyfriend.
St. Anselm of Canterbury wrote the definitive Western explanation regarding the incarnation and atonement in his classic treatise Cur Deus Homo (Why the God Man). It has fallen out of favor in recent years but it's emphasis on the demands of justice, restitution and reparation are surprisingly pertinent. They also talk about the upcoming live show at Sisyphus Brewing in Minneapolis on April 11th. Tickets available at https://dojour.us/s/25587/reserve
Get tickets to Like Trees Walking & 372 Pages We'll Never Get Back Live here: https://dojour.us/e/7195-372-pages-well-never-get-back-like-trees-walking-live
Dave and Mike tackle the notion that the Christmas story is just a shabby copy of some pagan myth. They also vote on the worst Christmas song of all-time.
Mike and Dave parse the philosophical musings of the great Jim Carrey and Mike shares a heartwarming tale of an encounter between Jim and Tommy Lee Jones/
Do animals have equal rights to human beings? What beings are worthy of rights? Where do rights come from? What responsibilities come with rights? Mike and Dave go back and forth and in the end we realize that the real rights are the friends we made along the way/
If Christianity is true why are there 50,000 Christian denominations who all claim to have the truth? Good question! Mike and Dave take this on, plus Mike offers Dave a quiz on very obscure Christian sects with difficult to pronounce names.
Mike and Dave muse about the objection that if God were real he would prove himself...how exactly is not entirely clear. The boys also talk about Mike's other podcast on the execrable novel Ready Player One.
Mike and Dave take on the topic of "prayer shaming" and the the usefulness of "thoughts and prayers" following a tragedy. Mike also tells a truly terrifying tale.
Mike has an idea that is so crazy it just might be brilliant. Dave displays his deep knowledge of all things autumnal.
Dave and Mike take on the nonsensical claim of something being "on the wrong side of history" and at long last Mike tells the scary story he promised to tell months ago.
Dave and Mike take on the concept of the devil using CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters as a helpful guide. They also reference a sermon Dave preached that is available here: https://soundcloud.com/city-of-lakes-cov/survival-of-the-fittest-a-sermon-on-ephesians-610-20
Dave and Mike discuss the distinction between means and ends when it comes to thinking about how to evaluate various social movements, their goals and tactics relying on this great article by Conor Friedersdorf (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/drawing-distinctions-antifa-the-alt-right-and-black-lives-matter/538320/)
Mike and Dave tackle an article from Psychology Today that claims to have found a naturalistic purpose for human life that makes no sense. Dave discusses his disdain for giant puppets.
Mike and Dave take on the idea that people do bad things because of systems rather than because of any individual immorality. Also Circus Peanuts and Circus Quiz.
Dave shares with Mike what he thinks the most important practice is for someone who wants to grow in their faith and the guys play a 90s music quiz (with sound!).
Mike and Dave discuss CS Lewis' famous 'Lord, Lunatic, Liar' trilemma and the guys inadvertently reveal they have no idea what the sport of kings actually is.
In a bit of a departure Dave rants about the NBA of all things, Mike once again points out intellectual piracy, and the guys shake their heads at Dishwalla.
Mike and Dave take on the question as to whether or not Jesus was "nice" and what this means for Christians, Mike apologizes and challenges Dave with a Father's Day Quiz.
Dave and Mike talk Tinder and the dating apocalypse and the realize that not only did they not start the fire but the can't extinguish it either.
Dave and Mike talk about people who say they have "no regrets," they rip on The Bachelor, Old Blue Eyes, and Mike has Dave taste the most disgusting thing ever.
Dave & Mike take on the conflation of intelligence and character and they further plumb the depths of "We Didn't Start the Fire."
Mike and Dave take on the idea of a "leap of faith," Mike explains why he doesn't like something, and they tackle an ethical dilemma.
Mike and Dave hottake on the "Billy Graham Rule" and Dave explains something else from the Star Wars universe to an incredulous Mike.
Mike and Dave tackle the problem of nothingness and one of the guys finds out which Sex in the City character he is.
Dave and Mike regret to inform you that philosophical materialism has died, they parse an obscure 80s song to God, and Dave finds out what Disney Princess he is.
Live from the Uptown VFW! Mike gets Dave to defend the statement that Christianity is a myth. They eat MREs, Mike gives an absurd Star Wars Quiz and Dave springs a surprise rap quiz on Mike.
Dave and Mike take on the popular idea that one cannot or should not legislate morality, a meme is explained, and Mike quizzes Dave on who started the fire.
Mike offers his novel idea that the fact that he wakes up each day as the same person as an argument against sheer materialism, Dave names his favorite Jim Carey movie, and there's a bad quiz at the end.
Mike and Dave talk about how Christians can talk about the political, particularly in fraught times. Mike reveals one of the most amazing things you will ever hear about Rebecca Black's Friday and Dave rants about Bill Belichik.
Mike and Dave take on the fascination in some "scientific" quarters with the idea that we're all just in a computer simulation. They also read some of the notorious NdGT's tweets and shake their heads.
Dave & Mike take a question from someone whose sibling is open to faith but thinks that because they're into science they can't believe. They also take on "Bread-Crumbing" and they Hansel & Gretel their spouses.
Dave & Mike take on the controversial cultural phenomena known as ghosting & the guys make fun of the dumb tweets of one of America's leading public intellectuals.
In which Dave and Mike discuss the difference between doubt and disbelief, what are the central claims of Christianity, and things like the Virgin Birth and Resurrection. Dave also quizzes Mike on his knowledge of Millennial slang.
Dave and Mike take on the question as to whether people are basically good or basically bad, Mike makes Dave eat something nasty, and they take the Pew Religious Knowledge Survey!
In which Dave and Mike share their favorite arguments for God and Mike forces Dave to do a quiz to demonstrate how little he knows about classical music.
In which Mike and Dave take on the difference between saying "I don't know" and "no one can know" & Dave freestyles about the Reformation.
Mike and Dave take a look at the ever-controversial notion of Political Correctness and how a Christian might approach it, Dave drinks something awful, and a meme gets explained.
David Berge & Michael J Nelson take on the question of what should you do if you we've been successful and you actually believe this Christianity stuff and Mike explains why he doesn't like something and introduces us to Dvorak.
Dave interviews Princeton Theological Seminary Professor Dr. Gordon Graham about his criticisms of the ideology of democracy, Brexit comes up, and make runs the sound.
The guys take on the notion that Christianity is a crutch and/or opiate and therefore false, Dave gets ranty, and a new Lightning Round!
In which David Berge and Michael J Nelson tackle the question of hell, brag about their new podcasting rig, and wrestle with another ethical dilemma.
Dave and Mike take on the rise of people with no religious preference and discuss what that means for the future of Christianity and they take on the ethics of face tattoos.
In which Michael J Nelson and David Berge take on the question "do you take the Bible literally"? Premises are questioned, bear-baiting is advocated for, disgusting foods are tasted, and the guys dare to answer Joan Osborne's immortal question, 'what if God was one of us?'
In which Dave and Mike take on the idea that all religions are the same, break down the "blind men feeling the elephant" parable, and Mike explains why doesn't like something that everyone else likes.
In which Mike and Dave take on those who characterize belief in God as belief in a "magical sky bully," the guys drink something terrible, and they tackle a major moral dilemma.
In which Dave goes on an impassioned rant against certain self-centered approaches to spirituality, Mike confesses to having a SCOBIE in his closet, and the guys explore the mystery of Full(er) House
In which Mike expresses annoyance at materialists who have the temerity to smuggles philosophical arguments into their purely 'scientific' description of phenomena, Dave goes full pirate, and the guys take on Harambe with the help of a new theme song.
In which Dave and Mike take on the objections that the Bible isn't reliable because it is just a copy of a copy of a copy, the origins of the New Testament, and the quizzer becomes the quizzee.
In which Dave recounts a tale in which he was "oughted," our hosts take evil and explore who it's a problem for, we hear evil personified in music, and Mike mails in his trivia song and is shamed.
In which we talk about what people mean when they say they're "spiritual but not religious", Mike comes out as "religious but not spiritual", Dave extols the virtues of cranky, old church people, and Mike reveals a custom Simpson's Quiz jingle.
In which Dave and Mike explore the human tendency to make moral claims (oughts) and ask why we do that and where do we base these claims. Dave's slavery to brands is also revealed.
In which Dave and Mike tackle the shame and stigma that can go with being a Christian, how Christians are weird, and Dave explains the appeal of Boba Fett.
In which Dave & Mike argue that the philosophical naturalism behind many "scientifically" minded skeptics of religion is actually anti-scientific at its core. They also welcome their first dead guest and engage in a disastrous lightning round of movie trivia.
In which David Berge and Michael J Nelson talk about whether science and religion are enemies or allies, Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham, plus another Lightning Round!
The pilot episode of Like Trees Walking in which we explain the podcast, our perspective, take on the flying spaghetti monster, explain our name, and have a "Lightning Round"!