MormonTalk: Recent Episodes
Dave & Mike
Critical, accusatory, but lightened with occasional irreverent humor, MormonTalk is a journey with Mike, Dave, and Mitch as they explore issues with the truth claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka, the Mormon church). As former Mormons who indulged in apologetics at times, the podcast hosts get personal as they address the struggle members of the Church face when they attempt to deal with some of the initially-attractive, sometimes-shocking, ever-evolving truth claims of the religion. Not intended for active adherents to the faith, MormonTalk is aimed at people ranging from those who've already left, to those who are in the process of leaving, to those who have just begun questioning. If nothing else, it is "an exploration for those who question".
Another episode “from the hip”, as we discuss a variety of (somewhat) recent church news, focusing the bulk of our conversation on the issues tied to Huntsman’s law suit against the church for misrepresenting its use of tithing funds.
In our first “From the Hip” episode, we talk about the church news that we stumbled upon while surfing the web during the April, 2021 church conference. One of the gems we found was Rusty’s Easter Message.
Over the years, a unique culture developed within and around Mormonism and its adherents, from unique foods (like green Jell-o with carrot shavings) to peculiar behaviors and figures of speech. We take some time in this episode to address some of our favorite “Mormonisms”, while simultaneously poking fun at ourselves for having been a part of it.
The leaders of the LDS church – and thus, most of the members – claim their savior is Jesus. However, a little low-effort, surface digging (like Joseph’s treasure hunting) reveals that that sneaky little Joseph Smith secured a bit of glory for himself before he passed on. He just may have a bit more of a “savior” status in the church than you might expect.
We’ve all heard the arguments, usually from evangelical Christian churches, that the Mormon church isn’t “Christian”. As former members, we pressed back heavily on such claims, thinking of them as ridiculous. “After all, look at the fetchin’ NAME OF THE CHURCH! Gosh!”, we’d say, along with other clever quips. But when you dissect it a little, what does it mean for a church to be “Christian”, and does the Mormon church really qualify? Jump into the episode to join us in the shenanigans.
After a VERY long publishing delay (read: COVID-19 experiences and other fun stuff), we’re back at it adding episodes. Here’s another Threesomes segment, this time with Dave’s friend, Cindy. Join us as we talk through Cindy’s journey, which ended with her making the decision to leave the church – all costs included – and discover that there may just be some light at the end of the tunnel.
Before his death, one of the gifts Joseph Smith Jr. left behind is the mysterious role of “patriarch” in the church. Evidently, these men are able to channel god’s personal crystal ball(s) and disseminate his will to recipients under their divinely guided hands, providing details about their pre-mortal life, offering promises and guidance for this life, and peering into the life beyond. Termed a “patriarchal blessing”, these personalized revelations from god become little “liahonas” for the members, and serve to exacerbate feelings of elitism and pride coupled with inadequacy, unworthiness, and confusion.
Borrowing from the movie titled How to Train Your Dragon, in this episode we pay homage to beloved Pavlovian techniques as we discuss the methods used in Mormonism to “train” people to be good, obedient members. Ring that bell!
One of the dreaded labels for a discerning member of the LDS church to wield against a malcontent is the term “anti-Mormon”. But what does that really mean? Is something anti-Mormon because it contradicts the doctrine or history of the church, or does it perhaps have something more to do with one’s level of loyalty to the current leadership?
Over the decades, the church has employed different styles of apologetics in their efforts to “defend” their truth claims. We give the history of apologetics a quick review in this episode, ending with a discussion about how it’s evolved and where we sit today.
This is our (much delayed) response to the second part of Rusty Nel’s effervescent offering. That piece, of course, was his surgeon-sponsored prescription to pray. Do you feel relieved of gaseous build-up?
In case you missed it, Rusty Nel gave an earth-shaking, glorious, revelatory message to the world back in November. In this two-part episode, we address the two core messages of his presentation — gratitude and prayer — and how they’re about as unique and helpful for solving problems at a personal and global level as taking a couple of effervescent lozenges.
We admit the title of this episode is an insensitive play on words, but we address the infamous Branch Davidians sect, led by David Koresh, and some of the similarities between Koresh and Lil’ Joe. A few of the parallels between the Davidian and Mormon cult leaders may surprise you!
Part 2 of our exploration around how the concept of suffering is addressed by LDS church teachings.
The LDS church teaches that suffering is an integral part of our existence on earth and necessary for several reasons, including honing our character, proving our obedience, and strengthening our faith. We address this harmful teaching in a two-part conversation.
In the United States, there are five key qualifications that a religious organization has to meet in order to be given tax exempt status. In this episode, we take a peek at those 5 qualifications and do our best to judge whether or not the LDS church meets the criteria.
The church makes many promises to its members. Of course, no promises are as well-known as the infamous promise from Moroni in the Book of Mormon. Check in as we chat about that promise and the philosophy of the church in general about promises based on the behaviors and obedience of its members.
We take a break from our recent string of Threesomes episodes to publish a previously recorded conclusion to our "First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel" theme. We couldn't wrap things up without discussing the fourth and final piece of that celestial pie -- the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Join us as we jump into a frivolous-yet-serious discussion about the church's doctrine behind this strange and very important concept!
Moving on through our discussion of the "first principles and ordinances" of the Mormon faith brings us to the ordinance of baptism. Where did this practice come from, and what does the church teach about it? Is the Mormon church's version of baptism similar to other churches, or are there significant differences? Do you think Dave and Mike can find ways to make fun of the church's teachings around it (i.e. is water a combination of hydrogen and oxygen)?
It may sound like a spell from the Harry Potter movies, but it's just a fancy way of saying "pathological lying". We take a side-step for a moment from discussing the next "principle and ordinance of the gospel" (baptism) to chat a little about how Joe Jr. was a mythomaniac (another word for compulsive liar) and used a combination of the familiar, intriguing, and mysterious to build the foundation of what would later become the Mormon church.
Moving on to discussing the 2nd "principle and ordinance of the gospel", we address the LDS concept of repentance. Of course, we can't talk about repentance in Mormonism without including its cousin, worthiness. The church has used these twin weapons as task master whip and battering ram to shame members and keep them in-line since its inception. Unfortunately, as with many LDS teachings, it results in untold damage to the church's membership.
The 4th Article of Faith in the Mormon church begins, "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..." In this episode, we talk about some of the problems and contradictions inherent in the church's teachings about faith, and how faith is ultimately used as a tool to gaslight members and terminate critical thinking.
We all know that the Book of Mormon is full of anachronisms (we poked fun at the story of the Jaredites in a prior episode), but you don't have to read that far to discover the shenanigans. In this episode we have some fun talking about some of the stories readers experience in the early pages of the book.
We conclude our 2-part episode on the church's teachings about how to find "objective reality" in the world. Is the church's suggestion the best method, or is there a balance to be found between reasoning and emotion?
If you're old like us, you'll remember a series of commercials on TV about Parkay margarine. The premise was that it tasted like butter and had the texture of butter, but it was actually something quite different. Likewise, the church claims it has "real butter" with regard to the greatest questions in life, and that those answers can become like an "anchor" to those looking for truth. But is the butter really margarine, and is the anchor really a ball-and-chain?
Starting at a very young age, the Mormon church instills its members with the notion that sex is "carnal", evil, and filthy. Rather than a natural, normal, healthy phase of human development, sexual exploration and expression - especially outside of marriage - is taught as something to restrain and divorce from one's behavior. From a "level of sin" perspective, only murder and denying the Holy Ghost rank higher. We explore some of the church's teachings in this episode, and how the leaders use guilt and shame around sexuality as control mechanisms. In the best cases this leaves many members guilt-ridden, and in the worst cases it causes irreparable damage and dysfunction. At least the church's founder, Joseph Smith Jr., was an example of sexual morality and fidelity, right?
If there's one thing Joseph enjoyed doing, it was twisting scriptures! Whether it was expressing the epitome of humility by retroactively adding himself to past prophesies, or just creating scriptures from nothingness, good ol' Addendum Boy couldn't seem to help himself. His three-year project to replace some of the "plain and precious things" that had been lost from the Bible has become one of the most well-known examples of that pastime. Join us as we chat a little bit about the background and outcomes of the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible.
One of the things the leaders of the LDS church and its members are very proud of proclaiming is that - unlike the rest of the world - their religion teaches not to "idolize" anything or anyone other than God himself (and perhaps his son, Jesus Christ). Besides the blatant visual or physical evidences to the contrary (such as the golden statues of Moroni on the tops of multi-million dollar temples), is there a deeper, more elusive doctrine or culture that may contradict the claim? Does the church "plant trees of idols" in the hearts and minds of the membership?
The LDS church requires its members to extend significant trust to its leaders. "The Brethren" at the top are sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators" who literally speak for God. Local leaders, while not looked upon as prophets, are still trusted as being led by the "spirit", having highly sensitive judgment (aka, "discernment"), and being a safe, trustworthy resource to their flock. Members are encouraged to embrace confirmation bias, and to hold their trust in the leadership and doctrine above any personal concerns or questions they may have about the church's truth claims. Unfortunately, history has shown us that much of the trust the members have placed in the church, its doctrines, and its leaders has been misplaced. In the best case, this misplaced trust creates disappointment. In the worst case, it irreparably harms families, breaks hearts, and destroys dreams.
When the church was very young, Joe and Ollie called 12 apostles, hearkening back to the good ol' days of Jesus and his traveling band. Ollie told the 12 that they had the obligation to see the face of God, one reason of which was to be able to testify to the members of the church and to the world at large that they had "seen his face". Since then, the concept has been watered down to the idea of simply "witnessing of his name". What does that even mean? And do the current apostles still claim to have seen Jesus, or has that been eliminated from the expectations of their office altogether? Let's dig a little deeper, and have fun while we're at it (as usual).
The church claims to be "the only true and living church on the face of the earth". What makes a church true? Beyond that - what makes it "living"? Join us as we take a look at this conundrum. Along the way, we consider the pertinent message from a famous pirate, "It's not gettin' in to the Land of the Dead that's the problem... it's gettin' back."
Did you ever hear of the "17 Points of the True Church"? It all stemmed from a talk given by a guy named Floyd Weston. "Back in the day" (especially from the late 70's to early 80's), it became a sort of cultural phenomenon in the church that a lot of members used to help "prove" the church was true. Although it isn't referenced much these days, it's a great example of the logical fallacies that have been used in the past (and are still used today) in the church's efforts to prove the veracity of its truth claims. Time to pick it apart.
You've probably heard the Book of Mormon called the "keystone" of the LDS religion. Join us in a small "stoning session" as we throw rocks at some of the truth claims and anachronisms in "the most correct book on earth", coupled with some important messages from The Brethren. We've included a special "hip hop" sound bite for your entertainment.
According to Jeff "Jowls" Holland, if you don't believe the Book of Mormon is true without accounting for its origin, you've been "deceived". Well then, let's look to the source, shall we?
Join Dave and Mike in a comic-filled review of one of the talks given during this recent General Conference.
You're probably familiar with the account of Lehi's dream in the Book of Mormon. Since the Book of Mormon could be described as something that was "dreamed up" by Joseph Smith (sprinkled heavily with ripped-off content from other contemporary sources), we might aptly call Lehi's dream, "the dream within a dream". Dave and Mike discuss the symbolism in the dream and how it directly impacts core doctrines of the church, specifically with regard to how members should live their lives and view the world and people around them.
From its inception, the Mormon church has claimed the "fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ" was restored (past tense) through the prophet Joseph Smith. This includes the doctrine received in the Book of Mormon, as well as the priesthood keys, ordinances, and other teachings provided by Smith. However, Rusty Nel has taken it upon himself to create a new narrative that suggests the restoration is still "ongoing". This message was one of the main themes of the April, 2020 General Conference.
A central belief in the Mormon faith is that Jesus Christ will come again, ushering in the Millennium, a time when he will rule the earth. What did Joseph Smith teach about the event? Did he prophecy when it would occur? Is the hope Mormons have had for generations still premature, or is the climax they've been hoping for finally "near at hand"?
Word has it that the dead are grateful for the Mormons doing stuff in the temple for them! Or at least that's what Mormons think. Where did this concept of work for the dead come from? Is it found in the Bible or the Book of Mormon?
Intermingled with comments on the Coronavirus, we take a look at two different topics in this week's episode. First, how staying home from church might affect the members. Second, how to talk with active family members or friends when you've left the church.
There is a folklore-doctrine taught in the church that those who obey God will be "protected" both spiritually and physically - especially those in special callings, such as missionaries. This belief has basis in some of the Mormon scriptures. Members are also taught that they will be protected when wearing the temple garments. But what does reality teach us?
For our semi-centennial episode, we talk about one of the craziest examples of "exclusive inclusivity" in the Mormon church -- the doctrine of the "2nd Comforter".
The church is getting ready to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the "first vision" of the founder, Joseph Smith. This presents the question, "Which vision version are you talking about?" (say that ten times fast!). Mike and Dave go through some of the problems that arise when you compare the NINE different variations of the first vision account.
The foundation of most Mormon beliefs and activities is centered on the nation and "blood" of Israel, tying back to the covenant God made with Abraham as presented in the Old Testament. Many even very active members don't realize how deep this belief goes, and how it relates to almost everything taught in the church.
The concept of "prosperity preaching" is actually a big part of the LDS church's teachings, as evidenced by its heavy inclusion in the Book of Mormon. We discuss the idea in depth and talk about the impact of this doctrine on the members of the church.
One of the core teachings of the LDS church is that people are called into leadership positions by revelation from God. However, a little research into the matter reveals something very different.
Moving along in the vein of interviews with church leaders, in this episode we review Gordon B. Hinckley's responses to Mike Wallace from a 60 Minutes interview conducted back in 1996.
In this episode, we review 7 questions that Jeffrey Holland was asked by BBC reporter John Sweeney as part of the 2012 documentary, The Mormon Candidate. You may find Holland's answers entertaining, if not disappointing.
We kick off the new year with an episode that looks back at some of the craziness from the church that happened in 2019, and some "glass looking" about what might come in 2020.
In the process of "lying for the Lord", leaders in the LDS church have relayed some pretty crazy stories through the years. These have added up to an impressive collection of folklore. We poke fun at several of our favorites in this episode.
You may have seen the recent Washington Post article on how one of the church's investment arms, Ensign Peak Advisors, has amassed over $100 billion in assets, has never paid taxes, and has not been following the requirements to retain its 501c status. We take a moment in this episode to talk about the church's wealth, and how it ties to its past and current teachings on donations from members.
What was the final thing that "broke the camel's back" with your departure from the church - or are you still in the process of questioning/reconciling?
The Mormon church is well known for claiming to have answers to life's great questions. The church's truth claims can completely supplant an individual's identity and self worth.
What originally started as a "yet another ploy" for Joseph Smith to make money unwittingly turned into a full-blown religion. To put it all together, Joe sprinkled in bits and pieces of things that were familiar to him, and added a healthy dose of imagination.
The LDS church has a long history of treating female members a little "less than". We take some time in this episode to explore the topic.
All aboard the Old Ship Zion! Ahoy, passengers! We'll talk about the tactics employed by The Brethren as they implore church members to stay on the ship.
In this Halloween episode we talk about the church's history with getting involved in something very "un-churchy"... politics.
Dave and Mike review more content from Latayne Scott's book, The Mormon Mirage, focusing on doctrines taught in the LDS church that don't appear in the Book of Mormon.
How many more crazy things can we talk about in Mormon history that have been summarily ignored by modern leaders, many of which active (and former) members are completely unaware?
There have been many anecdotes presented about the growth of the church over the decades. The real statistics may surprise you.
There's a culture of cop-outs given by leaders and members of the church to address some of life's difficult situations. We discuss some of these, and offer some alternative, potentially healthier responses.
Many members of the church have heard the first few lines of the infamous "Happiness Letter", but rarely have they heard the rest of the letter, where it came from, or who it was written to. Time to discuss!
Did you know there was a "succession crisis" after the death of Joseph Smith Jr., that several splinters emerged, and that the LDS church today is just one of those? Let's chat a little more about it.
There was a western genre TV series in the 70's called Alias Smith and Jones, about two outlaws who were on the run. In this episode, Dave and Mike talk about Joseph Smith and Jim Jones, outlaws in their own right!
Those listeners who are old enough to remember the caramel popcorn treat called "Cracker Jack" will also recall that there was a toy "surprise" inside every box. In this episode, we chat about some of the surprises that come up after someone has joined the church.
Have you had your daily helping of SPAM? How about your regular dose of translated Egyptian scrolls that... well... really weren't "translated"?
In this week's episode, Dave and Mike talk about the brilliant (or not-so-brilliant) fraud that was manifested by Joseph Smith in the creation of the Book of Mormon. We pick on the story of the Jaredites in particular.
Here's the conclusion to the two-part episode, where Dave and Mike explore some of the more interesting parts of Mormon history.
This is our first TWO-PART EPISODE! Trust us, we don't plan on doing this very often. We chat in this one about the "pits" that come along with LDS church history as apologists attempt to cherry pick the best parts.
Dave and Mike talk about the core philosophies of the church around relationships, and how questioning (and especially leaving) the church can have serious implications in all of our relationships.
There's at least one other translation for the word "pricks" in this title, and Dave and Mike kick against them in this episode.
Members of the church face "two churches" in their LDS experience -- the church presented to them as they first learn about it, and the church they discover after peeling back the shiny surface.
Dave and Mike talk about the many benefits that come from leaving the LDS Church. Since Dave was in town, we were able to record for the first time in the same studio. However, Dave's mic was of far less quality than Mike's, so please pardon the "pops" and other quality issues!
Dave and Mike share a little more about their personal perspectives on religion, spirituality, and the existence of deity. They follow it up with some commentary on the "kangaroo courts" that have become a trend with people questioning the truth claims of the church.
Yes, another blatant title rip-off for this episode! The LDS church highly discourages its members from reading anything that could shake their view of the veracity of the religion and its teachings. Dave and Mike take a look at a "top 10" list, with a few additions of their own.
We chat about how the church and its culture encourage "lying for the Lord", and lead members into a cycle of self deception and justification.
Dave and Mike explore the real three entities driving the church and its membership, with a focus on how the church uses guilt and the damage it does.
Does the concept of "elitism" enter into a discussion about the LDS culture? We think so. Also, like many things in the doctrine and culture of the church, it's harmful to members and nonmembers alike.
We talk about the rampant sexual abuse -- especially the abuse of minors ---that has been happening within the LDS church since its inception, how the culture and policies have helped foster and hide it, and how it has started to become more public over the past several years.
Lawrence Corbridge (General Authority, Seventy) gave a BYU devotional talk in January 2019 where he suggested a method for finding truth, and what to do with questions about the church. Dave and Mike pick it apart.
One of the core reasons behind our podcast is to explore the costs tied to questioning the church, staying in, and especially leaving. This is the first episode where we really explore this pertinent subject. Potentially more on this to come.
Have you ever had a conversation with someone about why you left the church, and they proceeded to tell you why you left? We talk about the common myths of why people leave the church, the real reasons for most people, and how defenders of the faith often get it wrong.
Only 7 episodes after we talked about God changing his mind, it seems he's at it again! In this episode, we talk about the church's dramatic change on the infamous LGBTQ+ policy, 3 1/2 years after the prior "revelation".
We explore a brief history of tithing, how it's used, the church's transparency around it, and how it's mandatory to be a member in good standing.
Do you think there's a possible disconnect between the 15 top leaders of the church, whose average age is 80, and the members...or the whole world, for that matter?
Dave and Mike review some of the psychological manipulations employed by the LDS church to indoctrinate its members.
In this episode, we talk about how emotion is a critical component of the Mormon belief system. Emotion trumps reason, science, and all other evidences that a member might come across in their life journey. But is emotion a reliable indicator of truth?
Mike and Dave go primitive for a moment and talk about some of the origins of religion, explore why humans seem to seek it, and relate it all to Mormonism and "what comes next" when you've left.
Ever wonder where religion came from to begin with? Where does it come from, and why do people seem to want it? Why do we need it?
For a church that believes in continuing revelation from God, does it seem like there really haven't been any (good/decent/big-deal) revelations lately?
Does God seem to change his (her/its) mind a lot?
When are the prophets "talking as a man", or "talking as a prophet"?
Which is more important - following God, or following "The Brethren"?
Let's talk about it.
Join Mike and Dave as they introduce the new MormonTalk podcast series!
Note: This podcast is not for devoted Mormons - it is for those who:
- have left the church, or
- are in the process of leaving the church, or
- have questions about one or more of the church's truth claims
Subscribe, enjoy, and leave feedback!